Hansard: Appropriation Bill : Debate on Budget Vote No 9 – National Treasury [State Security
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 04 May 2010
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
WEDNESDAY, 5 MAY 2010
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – E249 CHAMBER
_______
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249 14:01.
House Chairperson Mr M B Skosana, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
FIRST ORDER
FIRST ORDER
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Debate on Budget Vote No 9 – National Treasury [State Security])
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, distinguished guests, members of the intelligence community, our intelligence veterans, fellow South Africans, 2010 is a remarkable year for South Africa. In 2010, we celebrate 20 years of the release of President Nelson Mandela. In his state of the nation address, President Zuma reminded us that:
The release of Madiba was brought about by the resolute struggles of the South African people. Let us pursue the ideal for which Madiba has fought his entire life – the ideal of a democratic and free society, in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities.
As we celebrate this icon, we draw strength from his February 1990 Speech after his release, where he said:
Today the majority of South Africans, black and white recognise that apartheid has no future. It has to be ended by your own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. Our search for peace is a search for strength.
In 36 days, the entire world will descend on the African soil as we host the 2010 Fifa World Cup tournament. This is a concrete expression to the people of Africa that we have the capacity to organise world events of this magnitude. We are striving to ensure that the event remains peaceful, enjoyable, leaves a lasting legacy and becomes a springboard for Africa's development. The tournament is proving to be a major nation-building project, uniting our people behind our flag and the National Anthem. It brings a true sense of common nationhood. Once more we want to reassure the world that we are ready to host the 2010 Fifa World Cup. Our assessment to date does not indicate any security threat to the event including the cancer of global terrorism. However, we are not lowering our guard. We are grateful to our partners in the Southern African Development Community, SADC, Africa and the rest of the world who continue to share intelligence regarding the security of the tournament.
As the intelligence community, we are conducting daily threat assessments including the appraisal of routes, base camps, hotels and screening of service providers. This information is fed into the National Joint Operations Centre to guide operations. We urge all service providers to the event to submit themselves for security screening as there will be no one allowed to participate without fulfilling this requirement.
During the soccer tournament next month, we will also be celebrating 55 years of the Freedom Charter. In 1955, another struggle icon, Walter Sisulu announced that:
The campaign which produced the Freedom Charter was the beginning of our great campaign, of the building from our multiracial society of a united nation, free from poverty and misery, free from racial strife and antagonism. It is our hardest campaign which will bring to the broad masses of our people the understanding that they have much more in common than the things which superficially appear to divide them.
We in the State Security are in agreement with this foresight and are convinced that there may not be social cohesion until such time that we redress the legacy of apartheid. No divided nation can guarantee its own national security. Our government is working hard to bridge the racial divide that still exists within our communities. Both the plight of the majority and the concerns of the minority groupings are being attended to.
The recent rightwing threats emanating from the death of Mr Terre'Blanche can therefore not be justified. We are working with the Afrikaner community and the Jewish, Muslim and other religious groupings to build cohesion and strengthen the unity of our nation. In this regard, we applaud the Afrikaner leadership who have retracted the inflammatory statements recently issued in the media after the death of Mr Terre'Blanche.
Chairperson, last year, when we address this House, we committed ourselves to embark on a review of our intelligence services, with an aim of developing efficient and effective intelligence structure. The objective of this restructuring was to instil a common vision and improve the quality of our products, training and technical capabilities. In this regard, we hope to transform our community to be a sharper "eye of the nation".
I am honoured to report that in September 2009, a single department, the State Security Agency, was established by a Presidential Proclamation. The command and control of the civilian intelligence community has been centralised under the Director-General Mr Maqetuka, assisted by Heads of domestic and external components Mr Njenje and Mr Shaik respectively, and Mr Sokupa remains the Co-ordinator for Intelligence.
These high-level appointments were followed by the appointment of a Deputy Director-General in Corporate Services, Prof Africa, and the chief financial officer. We are currently in the process of filling critical posts of the chief information officer, the head of human resources and head of internal audit.
Since 1 April 2010, the Director-General of the State Security Agency has been the sole accounting officer for the Agency. We are grateful to the University of Pretoria for seconding Prof Africa to the agency to lead and manage this massive task of restructuring.
In line with our undertaking to complete the reorganisation of state security institutions swiftly and without disruptions, our goals for 2010 include the following: Tabling of the National State Security Bill to effect the amalgamation of the various intelligence components into a single entity; redeployment of members into new structures and upgrading of their skills to ensure that the agency has adequate human capital to meet the new challenges; and integrating technology platforms and playing a more proactive leadership role in developing policy, setting security standards, and monitoring for compliance.
Chairperson, last year, we undertook to develop a framework for the establishment of the Border Management Agency, BMA. This was completed by 15 December 2009. It will address the security gaps at our ports of entry and along our border line. The objective is to promote free movement of goods and people while preventing illegality. In this regard, the BMA will improve the security of our borders and ports of entry and promote trade within the region.
We have set up an interdepartmental task team at a directors-general level to conceptualise and develop the BMA. This task team has registered considerable progress. It set up various work streams, namely the ports of entry, infrastructure, human resource, and budgets. We have also concluded a feasibility study required to ensure that the BMA becomes a legal entity in the next three months. We are currently in the process of obtaining approval from the Departments of Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury.
We have also agreed on the functions which the BMA will perform, as well as its relationship with the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, which recently took the responsibility to patrol and secure our border lines.
Meanwhile, we will continue to strengthen the current Border Control Operational Co-ordination Committee, BCOCC. By the end of this month, the State Security Agency will install the communications link between the BCOCC National Nerve Centre and the key ports of entry.
We also undertook to resubmit the draft Protection of Information Bill to Parliament in order secure the integrity of sensitive state information and criminalise the activities of those engaging in espionage and information peddling. This Bill has been tabled before Parliament and is being considered by the ad hoc committee. Given the importance of the Bill, we urge the ad hoc committee to expedite its processing.
In 2009, I announced our plan to embark upon a project to develop an early warning system to monitor and identify risks to our critical national infrastructure. The National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, has concluded the pilot project in the development of such an Early Warning System. We aim to expand the project to include all state-owned enterprises including provincial entities.
Sixteen years after the advent of democracy, the White Paper on Intelligence is due for review. In addition, during our last Budget Vote debate, we undertook to prioritise the finalisation of the national security strategy by the end of the term of this government.
The drafting of the strategy has begun in earnest. The main purpose of the strategy is to build an understanding and national consciousness around the security challenges we face as a nation. Furthermore, the strategy will provide a long-term framework for managing the security threats facing our country.
To realise this important objective, we must, as a nation, develop a common understanding on what constitutes national security, as well as the foundation upon which it will be based.
I would like to emphasise that the strategy requires that we take collective ownership. It will therefore be essential to engage with members of the public on this matter. We hope the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, will take this challenge once the draft is tabled.
In the spirit of doing things differently, our work will not only be informed by the national intelligence priorities as encapsulated in our national intelligence estimate, but also by the performance agreement I signed with the President on 29 April 2010 last week. This is part of a national effort to build a performance-driven state focusing on measurable outcomes on priorities.
Some of the priorities for the year will be as follows: We will be contributing to the realisation of the outcome of ensuring that all people in South Africa are safe and feel safe. Government has declared war on crime and has set an objective to reduce crime levels in the country, particularly those that are violent in nature. In this regard, we will introduce in our intelligence analysis the scoping of the extent and impact of syndicated violent crimes and annual assessment of strategic crime trends in the national intelligence estimate. We will establish operations against domestic and transnational crime syndicates and we will employ all the capacities at our disposal including liaison with other foreign intelligence services to share information. This has proved to be useful because it builds joint operations with neighbouring and fraternal countries. We will provide actionable intelligence to assist in the prosecutions or disruption of activities of the syndicates. In this financial year, we will also develop a comprehensive counter-terrorism strategy, which will guide our counter-terrorism operations.
We have begun the preparatory work within security cluster working together with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, to provide security assessments, the setting up of systems and to ensure that the 2011 local government elections are held in a peaceful atmosphere. Our primary focus will be to eliminate no-go areas in order to ensure that all South Africans participate freely in the elections without any fear of intimidation.
The intelligence sector continues to monitor and assess the manifestation of xenophobia across the country, with the aim of averting the possibility of violent outbreak against foreign nationals. Our assessment reveals an ongoing tension between local communities and foreign nationals in various hotspots across the country. We will continue to work with local and émigré communities to prevent the commission of these inhuman acts.
We will assist, through joint operations and co-ordination, in the fight to root out fraud, theft and corruption within the cluster and government in general. Within the State Security Agency, we have instituted investigations in several areas including the Group Insurance Scheme for members. We will release the report once the investigations are concluded and we will not hesitate to act against the culprits.
Within the cluster we will continue working with Home Affairs to curb the scourge of identity fraud, which has become a threat to our national security, the wellbeing of our citizens and the integrity of our systems.
We are going to increase our counter-intelligence capacity in order to assist government in the fight against corruption. We shall conduct regular screening to those entrusted with state resources. We shall extend our vetting programmes to provincial and local spheres of government.
The intelligence community will also make an important contribution to the government's outcome to create a better South Africa and contribute to a better and safer Africa and the World. Our operations will be directed towards supporting government in advancing regional, continental and global peace, security and sustainable development. In this regard, we will continue to work within the ambit of SADC, African Union, AU, and the United Nations, UN, to support peace initiatives in the region and the continent. We will increase our presence in the continent and prioritise the conflict areas and work to stabilise these, particularly the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, Sudan, Madagascar, Somalia and Zimbabwe.
We will continue to lead the work on the conceptualisation and establishment of the SADC Early Warning Centre in Gaborone in Botswana with the objective that the centre is fully operational by the end of the year.
Illicit mining has emerged as a multifaceted national security threat, costing the economy billions of rand in revenue. Amongst others, illicit mining is taking place in the gold, platinum and diamond sectors. For example, the gold sector alone loses an estimated R5,7 billion in annual revenue through these transnational organised crime syndicates. We should note that the Welkom and Barberton areas have been particularly hard-hit by illicit mining activities.
Illicit mining presents us with a range of social challenges, such as the corrupting of communities, forced child labour, and related criminal activity, including tax evasion, human trafficking, prostitution and gangsterism.
As government, we are determined to address this threat to our economy and our communities. We have appointed an interdepartmental team, involving the State Security Agency, SA Police Service, crime intelligence, National Prosecuting Authority, Special Investigations Unit, Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigation, Department of Mineral Resources and Department of Home Affairs, to effectively deal with illicit mining and related activities. We are happy to report that this collaboration has yielded positive results.
As you are aware, for national security reasons ours is not a unionised environment. Our members are represented by the staff council in the consultation mechanism. We have directed the management and the staff council to advise me on the best ways of strengthening this mechanism and to ensure that the staff council is resourceful and able to advance the interests of their members. We are grateful to the staff council for their positive engagement and tireless effort in ensuring professionalism in our community.
Our members are intelligence officers for life. We therefore value our veterans and believe they should play a vital role in our affairs. We are going to rely on their expertise in training, mentoring and liaison with our communities. In the next three months, we will be convening a national consultative meeting with our veterans with the aim to formalise their interaction with us.
I would like to thank all those who continue to extend a hand of assistance to the community, especially President Zuma and Deputy President Motlanthe for their support and advice. Our appreciation also goes the Chairperson of the Audit Committee Mrs Spellman, Judge Khumalo responsible for Interception Directions, the Auditor-General Mr Nombembe, the Inspector-General Adv Radebe, my family and friends, the veterans, colleagues in the clusters, the members of the JSCI under the leadership of Mr Burgess, the top management of State Security Agency led by the Director-General Maqetuka, and my staff in the office led by Dr Khau Mavhungu.
In conclusion, I wish to recall the preamble of the Constitution which enjoins us to the national duty of building cohesion and ensuring equality and prosperity for all. This spirit of togetherness is pertinent if we are to achieve a safer and more secure life for all our people.
It is perhaps crucial to borrow from a Tshivenda wisdom,
Tshivenda:
"Mulilo muvhaswa nga vhanzhi u dzima u a konda".
English:
It is easy to defeat people who do not kindle a fire for themselves.
Our national security is the fire which we, together with society, are determined to kindle.
I request the House to adopt this Budget Vote. I Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you hon, Minister, I am going to let it pass because I had somebody who wanted you to repeat what you said. [Laughter.] I am not going to say it is me.
Mr C V BURGESS
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr C V BURGESS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security, Ministers and Deputy Ministers from the security cluster, hon members, members of the intelligence community, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. I also recognise in our presence the Director-General of State Security, Mr Maqetuka; Inspector-General of Intelligence, Adv Radebe and some of her staff; the Chief of Defence, Intelligence General Shilobane - congratulations, general, on your new appointment; Genl Mdluli, Head of Crime Intelligence and all the Heads of Department of the State Security Agency and heads of other intelligence entities.
Allow me upfront to place on record that the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, is satisfied with and deeply appreciative of the level of co-operation that we are receiving from the Ministry and the newly-established State Security Agency in fulfilling our oversight mandate. Defence intelligence and crime intelligence have equally co-operated with the committee in a responsible and professional manner. The committee therefore has expectations that this level of co-operation will continue in future.
There are many people present in the House today, good people, who work silently and dutifully out of the public eye. They play a major role in protecting the people of this country. Men and women who work in the intelligence community who almost never get credit for the work they do. We consider it necessary to acknowledge their contribution to ensuring that our country is protected against the enemies of our state.
With due respect, allow me to inform the House and those who are not familiar with our constitutional imperative regarding the National Security of our state that Section 198 of our Constitution provides that the National Security is subject to the authority of Parliament and the national executive. It further provides that national security must reflect the resolve of South Africans as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better live.
National security is at the centre of our Constitution and it is Parliament and the executive that has the Constitutional obligation to act as a custodian of the people when it comes to national security.
Historically, many of the mankind's conflicts have resulted from the undermining of the national security and national interest of a particular country or region. Many of these conflicts have led to holocausts that on reflection should warn us that this is a matter we should all take seriously.
The United States Holocaust Encyclopaedia, dated April 2010, records that, the estimated death toll worldwide at the end of Second World War, was in the region of 55 million people and concludes, "It was the largest and most destructive conflict in history".
We have on our continent of Africa witnessed perpetual conflict, which have not only destabilised the continent, but also affected the National Security of our country. It is not necessary to mention or identify the countries or region of conflict. However, what we do know, is that hundreds of thousand of people have died and millions have become displaced as a consequence of these conflicts.
Our people rely heavily on the contribution of the State Security Agency and the other intelligence entities, the defence and crime intelligence, in securing our people and the national interest of the country. They must protect our people in relation to national security, but, with respect, the Constitution in relation to national security demands more. As I have already mentioned, National Security must reflect the problems South Africans are facing. There is therefore a need for public participation in considering the narrower and broader principle encapsulated in the concept as set out in our Constitution. We hear what the hon Minister has promised now on the matter.
The idea of public participation is an active one. It must involve the public so that they become part of the process so that they can feel that they own it and play a part of true patriots. A patriot is a person who is a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life, a loyalist and a national flag waver.
As we approach the 2010 Fifa World Cup, we have this rare opportunity to call on our nation and people to show the world that we South Africans are truly proud and truly patriots, notwithstanding the diversity. Whilst opposition and criticism fortify democracy and so acts as a safeguard against the abuse of state power, we must be mindful that this is our country.
Whatever surprises Bafana Bafana may have arranged for the nation regarding their forthcoming performances in the World Cup, as South Africans, regardless of colour, race or creed, we must unite as a nation, as true patriots. And as the nation unites, hon Minister, you and all the other intelligence entities, constituted in terms of the Constitution to protect our country, need to co-ordinate your efforts so that we as a nation can truly provide a successful World Cup.
Section 210 of the Constitution provides for the proper effective co-ordination of all intelligence services. This co-ordination is critical to the work of our intelligence entities. It is in fact only through proper co-ordination of all our intelligence services that we can be assured that our national security and national interests have been carefully considered. A lack of proper co-ordination, inter alia, can lead to duplication of intelligence operations but more seriously to intelligence failures because information and intelligence products are not shared amongst interested entities.
Hon Minister, you know that early warning systems are key to effective co-ordination. The JSCI understands that it is the work of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, which has the mandate to provide the co-ordination. However, hon Minister, in your restructuring schedule the committee did not get a clear picture as to how the new State Security Agency will co-ordinate and co-operate with the other intelligence services.
On the question of restructuring the hon Minister informed the House a year ago of the progressive move to restructure our civilian intelligence entities in order to create the new State Security Agency. Many experienced intelligence people have been brought on board and appointed into key positions in order to strengthen capacity.
The JSCI supports the move but expects that the process of restructuring will now be accelerated. Hon Minister, the restructuring process must reach finality since it has affected the oversight work of the committee.
However, before I leave the topic of restructuring, hon Minister, we are yet as a JSCI to hear you in detail on the question of gender equality, especially in the top management positions. We now have our first female Inspector-General for Intelligence. The committee would like to see government's promise to implement gender equality filter down faster to your department.
The re-introduction of the Protection of Information Bill has been welcomed by the JSCI. We do expect that the ad hoc committee dealing with the matter will process the Bill responsibly and expeditiously. However, the Bill, once implemented, will create certain challenges particularly in relation to a proper and effective vetting strategy. The JSCI therefore expects that the State Security Agency will increase its capacity in this area in order to accommodate the expected demand for vetting of personnel.
I must mention Comsec, the Electronic Communication Security (Pty) (ltd), and I hope I have not spoilt your day, Minister. It has such an important mandate in the protection of this country's national interest and security. Yet, hon Minister, the delivery has not been up to standard. The JSCI is concerned and we trust that in the restructuring process careful consideration will be given to the problems at Comsec.
I wish to conclude by quoting one of the famous poets of our time, Wilfred Owen, who wrote and died during the First World War:
It is sweet and right to die for the homeland, but it is sweeter to live for the homeland, and the sweetest to drink for it. Therefore, let us drink to the health of the homeland.
Allow me to thank the hon Minister, staff, and people in the intelligence community for the co-operation that we as the JCSI receive. The JSCI supports the Budget Vote.
Mr T W COETZEE
Mr C V BURGESS
Mr T W COETZEE: Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security, hon Burgess, Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, hon members of the JSCI, hon Members of Parliament, distinguished quests, ladies and gentlemen, with your approval I would also like to acknowledge my wife Magda in the public gallery for her presence and support. I also want to acknowledge at this stage that my facts and my recommendations are based on the final report to the Minister of Intelligence Services dated 10 September 2008. It is titled, The Intelligence in a Constitutional Democracy.
The need for a balance between secrecy and security measures and transparency in a democratic and open society, is of great importance for the security of our land.
Ms Hutton says in her overview of the intelligence services secrets, spies and security:
The issue of the relationship between intelligence and democracy in South Africa is also brought to the fore. It is therefore important to consider and evaluate how the South African intelligence community is grappling with meeting the democratic demands of openness and accountability while, at the same time, maintaining the secrecy deemed necessary if intelligence is to function effectively.
As pointed out in the White Paper, the uncontrolled and excessive use of secrecy increases the potential for abuse of the intelligence and security services. In essence, uncontrolled and excessive secrecy undermines the very fabric of democracy; it can be a source of instability and can even be detrimental to counting certain threats to security. Without an adequate legal framework to govern the use of secrecy, the possibility for abuse exists.
The report further says that a system that over classify information lacks credibility. It is difficult to maintain and enforce and it is administratively costly and inefficient. In addition, excessive secrecy gave rise to suspicion and fear of the intelligence organisations and this reduced public support for them. In a democracy, unlike a police state, intelligence agencies must rely on public co-operation to be successful.
It is necessary to constantly guard against both the overclassification and the underclassification of information. Misuse of classifications can result in the system being treated with contempt. We need to strive for reconciliation between the requirements of sound administration with those of effective security.
Security measures are not intended and should not be applied to cover up maladministration, corruption, criminal actions or to protect individuals or officials involved in such acts.
The classification of information and or documentation should be limited to information that may be used by malicious, opposing or hostile elements to harm the objectives and functions of an individual and/or institution.
The report further says that the challenge of the intelligence services in a democracy is that the perspective is drawn primarily from the South African Constitution, which includes provisions on security and intelligence and contains a bill of rights that is binding on all organs of state. The excellence of the Constitution asserts that the values, on which our democratic state is founded, include human dignity, the achievement of equality, the advancement of human rights and freedoms, and the supremacy of the Constitution and the rule of law.
The rule of law is one of the cardinal features of governance that distinguishes a democratic state from an undemocratic state. It establishes the primacy of law and order to create a legitimate and stable dispensation based on rules approved by elected representatives.
Afrikaans:
Die Grondwet is ons wettige en etiese raamwerk, omrede dit die hoogste gesag is – ek verwys na artikel 2 van die Grondwet. Dit lê die basis vir 'n demokratiese en 'n oop samelewing waarin die regering gevestig is op die wil van die bevolking en waarin elke burger gelyk beskerm word deur die reg. Die Grondwet bepaal uitdruklik dat die intelligensiedienste moet optree, hulle lede leer en eis dat hulle lede sal optree in ooreenstemming met die Grondwet en die reg. Ek verwys na artikel 199(5) van die Grondwet.
English:
The implications of this constitutional perspective are that violations of constitutional rights by the intelligence services cannot be justified simply on the grounds of national security. An emphasis on human security does not mean that the security of the state is unimportant. In short, national security encompasses the security of the country, its people, the state and the constitutional order. These elements are interlinked and none of them is more important than the other. A broad approach to national security implies that the security services should have expansive mandates. We must be very careful, because this could make the services too influential, powerful and intrusive. It would create the danger of the security services encroaching inappropriately into politics, governance and social life.
The mechanisms of transparency and public discussion on intelligence are intended to ensure that the intelligence services are subordinate and accountable to the executive and Parliament and that the services comply with the Constitution.
Whereas the accountability of the intelligence services to the executive and Parliament is strong, the accountability of the services and the intelligence oversight and control bodies to the public is less strong, almost nonexistent. This is a consequence of insufficient transparency. Ministerial regulations governing the services are secret; the Auditor-General's reports on the services are secret; the budgets of the services and most of their annual reports are secret and there is very little public information regarding the activities and findings of the Inspector-General of Intelligence.
The report further says that the high level of secrecy is inconsistent with the Constitution, which insists that all spheres of government and all organs of state must be transparent and accountable, according to section 4l(1) of the Constitution. The National Assembly may not exclude the public, including the media, from a sitting of a committee, unless it is reasonable and justifiable to do so in an open and democratic society.
As we all know, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, holds all its meetings in secret, with the result that the public is unable to learn about the committee's oversight of the intelligence services, its assessment of their performance and its efforts to address problems that it identifies. The reports that are presented to the JSCI by the Minister, the Inspector-General and the heads of services are classified and are therefore not tabled in the National Assembly. The JSCI presents annual reports to Parliament and also table in Parliament its reports on controversial intelligence incidents, but these reports are not accessible to the public.
Afrikaans:
Die Grondwet beklemtoon die beginsel van 'n deursigtige regering.
Verder bepaal die Handves van Regte dat almal die reg het op
toegang tot enige inligting wat in die staat se besit mag wees en dat wetgewing voorsiening moet maak, om uitvoering te gee aan hierdie reg.
English:
South Africans talk constantly about policing, prisons and the judiciary but there is little debate on intelligence apart from occasional bursts of attention at times of controversy. The lack of debate on intelligence issues might also be due to a perception that an intelligence service is too sensitive and that it lies outside the public domain. This is not a healthy state of affairs in a democracy. Steps should be taken to raise awareness and facilitate discussion on intelligence.
The objective of South Africa's White Paper on Intelligence of 1994 asserts that a new mission is being set for the South African intelligence community in line with the new, nonracial, democratic order, in which much weight is given to the rights of the individual. The White Paper asserts repeatedly the necessity for the new intelligence services to comply with the rule of law and other democratic norms, including subordination and accountability to Parliament.
Afrikaans:
Finansiële kontrole en toesig van die intelligensiedienste is van groot belang. Die risiko van misbruik van fondse vir persoonlike verryking is altyd moontlik wanneer groot bedrae geld in besit is van organisasies, veral waar die geld gebruik kan word vir geheime projekte en inligting, slegs gegee word op die basis van: Dit is voldoende om slegs kennis te dra. Byvoorbeeld waar informante betaal word en uitgawes aangegaan is by die oprigting van voor-maatskappye, is uiteraard 'n groter risiko van misbruik as by normale finansiële transaksies.
Die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur, Wet No 27 van 1999, is
daarop gemik om die verantwoordbaarheid, deursigtigheid en goeie
bestuur van inkomste, uitgawes, bates en laste van staatsdepartemente en ander spesifieke entiteite, te verseker. Die Wet skryf die manier waarop openbare fondse deur departemente bestuur moet word en die verantwoordelikheid van departementshoofde met betrekking tot finansiële bestuur, begrotings en verslae, voor.
Dit is 'n groot bekommernis dat die intelligensiedienste nie hul eie
Begrotingspos het ten opsigte van die fondse wat jaarliks deur die
Parlement aan hulle toegeken word nie. Verder gee die intelligensiedienste ook nie gehoor aan die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur of die Witskrif oor Intelligensie nie. Die intelligensiedienste se begroting word slegs as 'n enkellyn in die Begrotingspos van die Nasionale Tesourie, aangedui as 'n oorplasing van fondse, waar die begroting van die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste byvoorbeeld bladsye beloop van syfers en verduidelikings.
English:
The Budget and annual financial reports of the intelligence services are reviewed by the JSCI which reports to Parliament, but the documents themselves are confidential and are not presented to Parliament. The intelligence services are therefore not directly accountable to Parliament for their budgets and spending.
With respect to the hon Minister, as stated in my budget speech on 1 July 2009, to date, the annual reports of the JSCI for the period 2005 until 2009, four years, have not yet been tabled in Parliament.
This arrangement deviates from the Constitution, which states that national, provincial and municipal budgets and budgetary processes must promote transparency and accountability. The arrangement is also inconsistent with the Public Finance Management Act.
One of the fundamental rules of a democratic dispensation is that government can only spend money with the approval of Parliament. Yet, our Parliament does not have any direct insight into the budgets and activities of the intelligence services and therefore cannot engage in an informed debate on these matters.
Intelligence organisations are resistant to reveal their budgets, on the grounds that foreign intelligence agencies would, thereby gain an advantage over them. I believe that this argument is totally overstated. A foreign agency would not gain from knowledge of how much money other countries spend on its intelligence services. The disclosure of the spending breakdown on personnel, operating costs and capital expenditure will be of no advantage to anybody. It is only at a higher level of detail, regarding targets, methods, sources and operational outputs and constraints, that the secrecy could be undermined through disclosure.
I believe that the intelligence services should have their own Budget Vote in respect of monies approved annually by Parliament. When doing so, they would not be expected to disclose information that would compromise their operations, methods and sources. I would like to take this opportunity to propose that the National Treasury create and implement a Budget Vote for State Security as soon as possible.
The most notable feature of the constitutional provisions of transparency is the inseparability of the concept of democracy and openness. The right of access to information lies at the heart of transparent governance and provides a basis for democratic accountability and an open and free society. The abuse of secrecy is an antithesis of democratic governance. It prevents full accountability and it provides fertile ground for abuse of power and a culture of impunity.
Secrecy must consequently be regarded as the exception to the rule and its use must be justified in each and every case. The justification should not rest on the broad notion of national security, but should instead specify the significant harm that disclosure might cause to the lives of individuals, the state or the country as a whole. Section 32(2) of the Constitution provides that national legislation must be enacted to give effect to this right.
In conclusion, section 32(1) of the Constitution contains amongst other things that everyone has the right of access to any information held by the state and any limitation of the right of access to information must he consistent with section 36(l) of the Constitution, which deals with limitations of rights.
We need to now examine the high level of secrecy surrounding the intelligence organisations, if the role of State Security is to be consistent with the Constitution. We should not forget that the Constitution does not treat the security service as an exception in this regard.
Despite the above, that there is no detailed budget for intelligence services as required and prescribed by the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and supported by the Constitution, we will support the Budget. [Applause.]
Mr M S SHILOWA
MR T W COETZEE
Mr M S SHILOWA: Chairperson, hon Minister. Cope will support the Budget. We support the objectives for which it is being set aside. We think it is important that the issues of personnel and infrastructure, in particular, are put in place to ensure national security. We are not only aware, but also accept that there will be discussions about protection of information and the orderly release and declassification of information, which will make it possible to find a balance between the dictates of the constitution for transparency whilst at the same time ensuring national security.
As the Minister has said, 2010 will pose a challenge, particularly the 2010 World Cup, to the security cluster, especially the intelligence community. This is partly because of the scepticism about our inability to provide security for our own citizens and therefore implying that it is likely to be more difficult to protect the visitors. To portray us as not ready or unable to secure the tournament will take just one incident being blown out of proportion.
It is therefore important that, in whatever we do, the co-ordination in terms of military defence intelligence, the counter intelligence and intelligence itself, we work together to ensure that notwithstanding this scepticism we can say to the people of the world that not only are we ready but also able to ensure that they are secure.
National security, off course, is not just about personnel or rather security and policing. It must also be about the improvement of the lives of our people and to ensure effective delivery of services, hence the focus on national security, corruption, fraud, economic espionage, resources particularly water, electricity, mineral resources, other installations and infrastructure become very important.
As the Minister has said, he is currently engaged in the restructuring. It is one thing to restructure and another to perpetually restructure with no results in mind. We think it's important that there should be a clearer goal. Restructuring is not about shifting staff from one section to another, but about new ways of doing things, consolidation, co-ordination. In that way it requires that we have short and medium to long-term goals. The short-term goals must be clear regarding where they begin and where they end. The same must apply to the medium-term and the long-term goals. As one knows restructuring has an impact on the morale of the staff. We're not going to be in a position to ensure that we keep the morale high in the intelligence department, particularly because it is very difficult to acknowledge the good work that they may be doing. But one can generally realise when things have gone wrong. It's always difficult to keep the morale high unless we handle restructuring in a better way.
The review of the White Paper on Intelligence has been spoken about. I think that is the process which will give us an opportunity to indicate what has worked in terms of this review over the past 15 or 16 years, what have been the problems in terms of the White Paper, where do we need to improve and which issues have not worked or are archaic and have no place in a constitutional democracy, which we must therefore discard.
The point regarding how the intelligence accounts to Parliament has been raised. I think it is not about where it accounts. It is about the fact that even though we have a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence the debates, the discussions and the budget take place in the National Assembly. This means that even though it is Parliament as a whole that is doing the oversight work, but really the opportunity to raise, debate and challenge issues only falls on the National Assembly and not the NCOP. The whole issue of review must also include the desirability or otherwise of it being a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. I'm not saying it should not be, but we need to be clear, if it is a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence it should not only be receiving reports but also engage on a platform such as this one.
Lastly, I just want to commend the Minister and the agencies for the commitment they have shown to come forth and provide the required information. The challenge for the committee is to find ways and means to ensure that one can separate smoke from mirrors and to further ensure that it is not only smoke and mirrors but also the real things that need to be done. For instance, we have discussed issues of Comsec, formally Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd, as they have been raised. The question is not whether we need it or not, but how do we set up a structure which we are unable to ensure that it is being utilised to its full effectiveness? If we do have reliable intelligence, how do we then ensure that the issues of crime and incidents of violent crime, in particular, are reduced and so that people can begin to have a sense of security. I thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG
Mr S SHILOWA
Prof C T MSIMANG: Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers and hon members. The success or failure of any state department is measured not only by what it does or fails to do, but also by the feelings and concerns of the citizens. This too applies to the newly established Department of State Security. Accordingly it is incumbent upon this department to allay the people's fears by addressing their concerns albeit within the stringent confines of the secretive and sensitive nature of information that intelligence deals with.
Let me illustrate by means of only two issues of concern. The first pertains to the protection of South African porous borders and the other deals with the Fifa World Cup tournament. Regarding the issue of our borders, it must be pointed out that the concern is not only the infiltration of our borders by illegal immigrants, but also the criminal elements that are associated with the influx of the illegal immigrants. By way of example, may I cite the unfortunate and ever-increasing number of murders of farmers and farmworkers in our country.
This has led to serious concerns by the youth wing of AfriForum in a memorandum which contains a list of 1 600 people who have been murdered on South African farms in recent years. The AfriForum youth drew a connection between the said list and the pursuant singing of the kill the boer song by Julius Malema. To those who compiled the memorandum, each name listed was sacred, representing a loved one who was untimely and brutally removed from the land of their living. The way in which the memorandum was received by the youth league must be condemned with contempt. The lists of victims were scattered in the street and trampled on the ground.
It is under circumstances such as these that the Department of State Security must come forward and assure the farmers, whites and blacks, that their lives are important to the state and that they too, are entitled to protection from the state as the Minister has just said in his debate. We, in the IFP, congratulate the Minister of State Security on his appointment to the Chair of the newly-established South African National Border Management Agency. We would like to believe that with him at the helm, cross-border crime and illegal entry of foreigners into our country will be minimised. The Minister accordingly needs to take the people of South Africa into his confidence by, amongst other things, media briefings and public statements that their concerns are receiving attention.
With regard to the upcoming 2010 Fifa World Cup, the recurrent and persistent concerns raised by the local and international community are whether it will take place in a crime free and safe environment. Media reports which highlight the fact that some individuals are planning to use this joyous occasion to line their pockets are alarming, to say the least. We, however appreciate the swift action that was taken against these individuals. Another concern is expressed by those who have invested their hard-earned money in projects connected to the World Cup showpiece. Their concerns relate to whether the recently quoted figures of 373 000 tourists to our country, which have gone down from the previously estimated 483 000, will still be realised.
This is in pursuance to the fact that of the 3 million tickets produced, only about 300 have been purchased by soccer enthusiasts outside South Africa. Have the rest been discouraged by prophets of doom, including some British journalists, who are dissuading people of the world to come and experience the Fifa World Cup in South Africa? We are well-aware of the capacity of our security agencies to ensure security and stability during the time of major international events in our country. Examples range from the Rugby World Cup in 1999 and culminate in the Fifa Confederations Cup which took place in an atmosphere of peace in 2008. In spite of this, for the sake of doubting Thomases, we need this department to publicly dispute the claims of the prophets of doom and encourage the whole world to come to South Africa. The IFP supports the Budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr Mlangeni): Hon members on my right hand side, please. We are discussing a matter of great importance, security of the state. Please, let's give one another a chance. Let's listen to what members are saying, what suggestions they are making to the Minister on how best to protect our state. So please, let's give one another a chance. I now call upon hon member Fihla.
Mr N B FIHLA
Prof C T MSIMANG
Mr N B FIHLA: Can I pass this small remark that hon Coetzee should stop grand standing, this is a serious committee. Hon Ministers, hon Members, the Director-General with his entire security cluster, I greet you all on behalf of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Let me start by pronouncing that the African National Congress supports this Budget vote.
The problem of crime has long been in the minds of tourists, visitors and residents of the country and in a beautiful country with so much to offer, crime has stuck out as one of the main scourges, keeping the country from being the best in the world.
Understanding that crime is the function of inequality where the gap between the poor and the rich is huge and the inequality distribution of wealth and resources is wide, which then implies that, with the widening differences in wealth, crime might increase and unless the inequalities are tackled it may be difficult to combat crime.
However, statistics compiled by the United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute show that South Africa has lower rates of violent crime than most African and South American countries, but due to the fact that South Africa is often compared to the developed world, the crime rate is considered high when measured against the likes of England, the United States, Italy, Germany and other First World countries, but we have to ask ourselves, why is it that we have a lower crime rate compared to other developing countries?
There have been media reports that our borders are porous, which makes it easier for foreign nationals to enter as they please, but it is a reality that with South Africa having the highest Gross Domestic Product, GDP, in Africa, it attracts both legal and illegal immigrants.
Also with the high development of technology in the developed world and in South Africa, we are facing the most sophisticated crimes, that of organised crime, international syndicates who look at South Africa as a potential goldmine.
It has therefore become important to tighten our security in the country internally and externally. We have to get early warnings of the strategies and tactics of these international criminals and drug lords in order to nip them in the bud. Perhaps I do need to say that the crime intelligence division of the SAPS, and other intelligence structures are working tirelessly to make this country safe.
The crime intelligence, as provided for by section 2 of the Intelligence Oversight Act 40 of 1994, reports to the Joint Standing Committee which plays an oversight role over it. The intelligence committee itself is responsible for managing information gathering, centralise an integrated intelligence management, co-ordination and analysis. They also provide a technical intelligence support service to the operational components of crime intelligence and where necessary to other operational division of the SAPS.
At this juncture I would like to congratulate our Minister for State Security for having been appointed as head of the border management agency. We have all confidence in you, Minister, and feel assured that the fears that people might have can now be put aside and people can start enjoying democracy in a secured South Africa.
Minister, this will surely be a challenge to you, for it's a fact that there is a lot of cross-border crimes, particularly between Lesotho and South Africa. Stock theft, drugs and stolen vehicles are at the order of the day, which are excessively high.
We also welcome the involvement of the Defence force as part of the security forces to patrol our borders. But all is not doom and gloom, for recently Local Organising Committee CEO Dr Danny Jordaan confronted fears surrounding spectator safety at the World Cup and said:
This world is unstable, not just for one country, if you look at the track record of South Africa, it has hosted more than 150 major events since 1994, including the Rugby World Cup, the Cricket World Cup. Last year we hosted the Indian Premier League after India was deemed unsafe and Rugby Unions, British and Irish and football's Confederation Cup and there was not a single incident. We are comfortable, but we will be vigilant.
These successes in our airports, on land and in our sea ports can all be attributed to our intelligence capacity. All of them are because of the security co-ordination of our security forces in particular the crime intelligence of the SA Police Force because of their professionalism and precision in their operations.
We must also praise all other forces of the security cluster in the manner in which they share information so that it could be directed where it could be better utilised.
Crime affects all of us, so as citizens of this country, united in our diversity, we also have a role to play to combat crime and the following are some of the strategies we could employ, for crime is a reality.
Strategy 1: community participation, is an important crime prevention strategy. For example, the Department of Correctional Services requires the community to play a part in rehabilitation while the SAPS relies on the community to report crimes.
Strategy 2: communication between various role players, especially police and communities is vital for increasing confidence and trust in the criminal justice system. For example, when crimes are reported, victims should not have to wait for long to receive case numbers as this does not provide immediate guarantee that something will be done.
Strategy 3: the need to strengthen the criminal justice system in responding to crime and the importance for various state organs in the criminal justice system to collaborate to ensure multisectoral strategies for crime prevention.
Strategy 4: encouragement of community participation, especially participation partnership with SAPS and other law enforcement agencies for integrated crime prevention including pro-active responses in dealing with crime especially domestic violence, the development of systems where individuals are informed of the status of their reported cases.
This strategy has been proven to be very effective in Cuba, which has one of the lowest crime rates in Latin America. In Cuba community organisations play a significant role in controlling criminal activities by generating and sustaining citizen participation. Generating an understanding of the nature of community crime and helping to form partnerships for community policing.
Strategy 5: the necessity for the police to continuously strive towards protecting people's rights and the need for the media to ensure a positive reporting of crime in order to create the desired paradigm shift in communities.
Strategy 6: educating the public about their responsibility towards crime.
Strategy 7: better balance between the rights of the accused and the rights of the victims. This may include the mechanisms to protect victims from reprisals in reporting crimes and facilitating testimony in courts.
Strategy 8: long-term general change of mind set through school curricula and special programmes that impart to the youth the much needed life skills, positive social values and healthy recreational opportunities.
Strategy 9: the Broken Window Theory states that an increase in minor crimes dynamically triggers more severe crimes without the reverse being true. As far as enforcement is concerned, a tougher enforcement of mild offences not only reduces minor crimes, but also dynamically deters more severe offences. Put simply, petty crimes like jaywalking and public urination have to be tackled very strictly and strongly and the other crimes will start dropping.
In conclusion, it should be noted that while South Africa is said to have one of the highest crime rates in the world, there is an element of unfairness in this assertion, as South Africa is usually compared to developed countries as many developing countries do not keep proper and reliable records on the crimes that are committed there.
Also the socioeconomic conditions, unemployment levels and the state's ability to help those in need are more favourable in the developed states concentrated mainly in the northern hemisphere.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr Mlengeni): Order, Thank you hon Member your time has expired. Thank you. Your time has expired, please.
Mr N B FIHLA: And lastly Chair, I must emphasise that all of us should be guided by the Freedom Charter and the Polokwane resolutions as we walk this route. I thank you. [Time expired.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr Mlengeni): I want to be honoured. When I say time is expired it means it has expired. Thank you very much.
Ms S C N SITHOLE
Mr N B FIHLA
Ms S C N SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Members of Parliament, my beloved intelligence community. I thank God for allowing me to be alive and well to participate today in the era when the African National Congress is in government. I love the ANC. [Applause.]
I most humbly express my gratitude and that of my organisation to the dedicated intelligence community of our land. These men and women work tirelessly under very difficult circumstances to protect all of us, at times without sufficient recognition and praise because they work in secret. Today I want to praise them in public. Long live the intelligence community, long live!
The 2010 Fifa World Cup is finally coming because you kept your eyes on the ball. You did not listen to the negative publicity of the prophets of doom. We salute you, may God give you courage, wisdom to continue working for the security of the government of South Africa. The ANC supports this budget.
Our founding document, the Freedom Charter, dictates that the people shall govern. It further entitles all South Africans black and white alike to take part in the administration of the country.
In 1994, as the ANC, we introduced accountability, a word unknown in the history of South Africa. We did that, because, when we pass this budget we will stand equal to the task. We are going to scrutinise the operation and efficiency of the budget. We will call to account to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, the accounting officer, we expect quarterly reports on time. We expect to be taken on board on any material occurrence on the budget of the department before, not after, the occurrence.
We expect financial statements prepared in line with generally accepted accounting practice and generally recognised accounting practice for your department and all your parastatals. All that must happen on time. We do not love historical explanation on material financial expenditure, because we are always available here to listen and, if need be, to physically come and verify. My hon colleague, hon Coetzee, I want to assure you that there is no secret for us. We have been vetted, we have gone through the necessary processes and we have the right to know everything, and to this the JSCI and government shall account.
Finally, I want to advise the hon Minister and the department to co-operate with the Auditor-General because it is in your best interest. You must answer all the management letters, because the Auditor-General only needs to understand your circumstances because if you do that it's going to make life easier for yourselves and the Auditor-General - we are not that interested in reading qualified reports.
I want us all to remember this. Always remember the importance of the centrality of Parliament to the process of democracy. Democratisation is not an event it is an ongoing process, so it will take some time. I want to quote from this book by the interparliamentary union of which I am a member, Parliamentary Oversight of the Security Sector:
The power of the past can and has to be used to ensure the best use of the allocation in a manner accountable to the public. One of Parliament's important mechanisms for controlling the executive is the budget. From the early days of the first assemblies in Western Europe, Parliaments demanded a say in policy matters, their claim being "naught exertion without representation". It remains essential that Parliament monitors the use of state's scarce resources, both effectively and efficiently.
I want to promise this House that we will stand equal to the task. We are going to monitor the expenditure. There is no way, as the ANC, that we going to allow abuse of funds. Our President is very clear on that. He doesn't want corruption. We have to work in a manner that shows that we are serious as this country because it doesn't matter how much we can desire security, if the money is abused and we have no resources we are not going to achieve that goal, and there is no way we are going to get money elsewhere. We've got to live with the money that we have. We've got make sure that we satisfy the public that the monies of the state are secured.
I want to assure Mr Coetzee that the only secret is in our committee room. The secret documents go there. We read there, we write a report and we're not going to mark it secret if they have overspent the money. We are going to table it in the legislature without the secret. So accountability will still be there. We need to question government fearlessly and we are going to do that.
When it comes to matters of security, the party to which you belong is not important. You need to make sure that your utterances and what you say in public is in the best interest of the country because when South Africa becomes unsafe, it becomes unsafe for all of us. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N M KGANYAGO
Ms S C N SITHOLE
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and members present here today, the United Democratic Movement supports this Budget Vote.
Sepedi:
Polokego ya setšhaba e bohlokwa baduding ba naga ye nngwe le ye nngwe. Se se re gopotša polokego ya batho bao ba tla bego ba kgobokane nageng ye ya gaborena matšatšinyana a se makae ao a tlago kua mapatlelong, go lebeletšwe meraloko ya kgwele ya maoto. Ka ge bonaba, bonokwane le bohlokotsebe di tletše lefaseng, re tshepa gore Tona ya rena ya tša Tšhireletšo ya Naga o ipeakantše ka botlalo mabapi le polokego ya mašabašaba a batho ao a tla bego a nyeuma mapatlelong a dipapadi ka tšhomišano ya dikgoro tše dingwe tša go swana le ya tša Tšhireletšo le Bagale ba Sešole le ya tša Sephodisa. Ke kgolwa gore bo tshebi ya dira bao ba lego gona nageng ya gaborena ba tloga ba hlatlilwe gabotse ka botswerere gore ba dire mošomo wa bona wa go kgoboketša ditaba tše bohlokwa tša go tšhireletša setšhaba ka botswerere.
Kuranteng ya The Citizen ya lehono go bolelwa ka pomo yeo e paletšego ke go thuthupa sefataneng seo se bego se beilwe go šomišwa bjalo ka molaba wa go bolaya setšhaba sa Amerika – le e bone le lena taba ye. Ge ke tsopola kuranta ye e re: "The intent behind the terrorist act was to kill Americans." [Maikemišetšo ditirong tše tša matšhošetši e be e le go bolaya badudi ba Amerika.]
Go Tona le bašomi ba gagwe, bao re tshepago gore ba tla dira mošomo wa bona ka tshwanelo, re re ba dule ba le komana madula a bapile gore dinokwane, ditsotsi le ba bangwe ba go dira bošula e be bašimanyana go bona.
Ge baeng ba tlile ka gae, ke setlwaedi sa setho go beela diphapano le dipolelo tša go se re selo ka thoko. [Tšhwahlelo.]
Na le bakgalabje le ba tima nako? [Nako e fedile.] [Legoswi.]
Ms S T NDABENI
Mr N M KGANYAGO
Ms S T NDABENI: Chairperson, hon Minister Dr Cwele and other Ministers present, hon Members of Parliament, the director-general, members of the intelligence community and distinguished guests, as the ANC we believe that our budget debate should be premised on our policies.
We believe there is no budget that takes place in a political and economic vacuum. It takes place at a time when crime and criminality have become sophisticated, with wider criminal networks. The Freedom Charter's clarion call that, "there shall be peace and friendship", is relevant at our political juncture, for our hope and the realisation of our achievements.
Indeed, we have achieved peace in the last 16 years. We need to deepen such peace and friendship among ourselves in our nation and with all nations. We must ensure peaceful conditions during this forthcoming 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup.
Peace and stability is one of the priorities of the state security and intelligence community. Equally, it is the priority of the ANC. In this regard we need to improve the co-ordination and use of intelligence. This budget needs to strengthen all intelligence structures as part of state security apparatus in the prevention of crime and criminality. Intelligence capability needs to be improved across the peace and stability cluster to ensure better investigations, prosecutions and prevention of cyber crime, in particular. Networking with other law enforcement agencies should be enhanced.
In the context of investigating and prosecuting organised crime, it is important that different law enforcement agencies network in terms of jurisdictions and across government. This would involve formal and informal networks based on targeting specific types of crime and their prevalence. This has to be a diverse process due to the diverse nature of cases and their circumstances.
Consequently, our restructuring and capacity-building must develop effective and efficient intelligence architecture, improve the quality of intelligence products and build a professional civilian intelligence service. This will require that both the National Communications Centre and other services invest more in their technical capacities.
The SA National Academy of Intelligence is crucial in terms of the kind of training it offers to the intelligence community. There is a need for both cadet and advanced operational training. This restructuring must enhance output for the academy. It should not impact negatively on the training offered by the academy; it should rather bring the best human skills to the fore. No doubt, capacity-building and restructuring require more resources to effect the required changes.
The Minister, Dr Cwele, last year informed this House that they will open up their recruitment processes and inject new blood into their workforce. His department will tap into the best of South Africa's brains, ensuring that their expertise is used to reinforce the department's knowledge of strategic fields. This commitment is important if the State Security Agency is to succeed in this process of renewal after 16 years.
We all know that intelligence is a sensitive area and that it demands a deep level of patriotism, hence the prerequisite that only South Africans can join our intelligence services. The implications of this for capacity-building are enormous in that, for the requisite expert human capital, the State Security Agency can only depend on the limited South African skills market. It would be commendable therefore to come up with a plan to not only attract the best brains in South Africa, but also to encourage the development of this scarce resource, particularly in the area of research and analysis. It needs to look at ways of mobilising our young people into the intelligence profession, with a sensitivity towards and representation of our people in terms of race, gender and disability.
Then ANC manifesto identifies five priorities. I will only mention those that are relevant to the cluster: All people in South Africa are to feel and be safe. This will be achieved by building a skilled and capable workforce that can support an inclusive growth path.
The intelligence services' best mechanism to support government in implementing these priorities is through strengthening its capacity. The ANC is committed to the building of a well-resourced intelligence capacity motivated, loyal and professional officers. We are committed to a career path and a human capital utilisation programme built into it.
This budget must talk to a better-organised State Security Agency with the requisite capacity to deal proactively with matters that pose a threat to the peace and security of the country. It should therefore enhance the integrity of state information and promote anticrime preventive measures to ensure that sensitive state information is managed and protected from theft and manipulation.
Furthermore, through this budget we must strengthen the protection of information from cyber attacks, unauthorised disclosure, corrupt officials, criminal syndicates and foreign information pedlars. This includes the establishment of early warning systems to monitor and identify risks in national infrastructure. Above all, so as to elicit maximum co-operation and support from communities, we must continue with the promotion of the awareness of the role of intelligence.
The management and security surrounding the border environment impact on the territorial integrity of our Republic. We were therefore comforted by the declaration of our President, Jacob Zuma, during his state of the nation address, that plans were underway regarding the establishment of a border management agency. We are therefore pleased to hear that intelligence is leading the interdepartmental work to ensure that the agency is realised this year.
We indeed urge our Minister to ensure that his department continues to work with the Department of Home Affairs, the SA Police Service and the Department of Defence and Military Veterans to ensure that our borders are secured.
There is an urgent need for clarification of the mandate of the border management agency with a special focus on stakeholder roles. This will assist all operatives to perform their duties with enthusiasm and efficiency.
Our recent oversight as the Defence and Military Veterans' portfolio committee revealed serious challenges around the lack of capacity to secure our borders. The situation can be exploited by all criminal elements due to movements of people in and out. Our Constitution is very clear about the role of state security services to ensure national security.
In conclusion, in the context of building a developmental state, the state security apparatus needs to be strengthened for conditions which favour the overarching role of the state to lead development for a better life for all.
This task calls for intelligence agencies to be capacitated with relevant infrastructure and human resources. It calls for intelligence networks to be strengthened in relation to other law-enforcement agencies in a co-ordinated manner.
Peace cannot be achieved through violence. It can only be attained through understanding. Let us therefore not be cry babies, but rather understand the challenges that this department and country face.
Without a doubt, our available resources must be used appropriately to accomplish this task and overcome these challenges. As the ANC we support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD
Ms S T NDABENI
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, hon Minister, I always say that I am privileged in the sense that I am not a member of the portfolio committee or the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. The benefit of that is that I can speak freely. I don't have to keep everything a secret and so, if I am frank about this, hon Minister, please take it in that sense.
Afrikaans:
Voorsitter, die agb Burgess het dit reg toe hy gesê het dat die mense wat by intelligensie werk die mense is wat agter die skerms werk. Ons sien nie altyd hulle harde werk nie, ons weet nie altyd wat hulle doen nie en, van die VF Plus se kant af, sê ons dankie vir daardie werk. Ek dink ook jy moet 'n sekere sort persoonlikhheid hê om so te kan werk en jou beste te kan lewer in diens van 'n land waar daar nie altyd waardering is nie.
Maar dit gesê, wil ek ook vir die agb Minister sê – en ek kom nou net van die debat van die Minister van Justisie af, ons het môre die debat van die Minister van Polisie het en ons het vandag u debat - al hierdie verskillende departemente praat van misdaadbestryding en hoe ons misdaad gaan vasvat in Suid-Afrika, maar die werklikheid is, dit wat ons beleef in Suid-Afrika, is dat daar te veel mense is wat slagoffers is, spesifiek van geweldsmisdade.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat daar meer aandag gegee moet word aan die invoer van onwettige vuurwapens. Die agb Minister van Polisie is baie vinnig om die wettige vuurwapeneienaars te wil beskuldig dat hulle nou die oorsaak van misdaad in Suid-Afrika is. Die hoekom hy hulle wapens wil vat. Maar dit gaan hier oor die onwettige vuurwapens wat oor ons grense in die land ingevoer word deur sindikate.
Agb Minister, ek weet ek kan met 'n bottel brandewyn 'n AK47 kry. Dis nogal 'n redelike goedkoop een waarvoor jy nie 'n baie duur brandewyn hoef te vat nie. Dit is die werklikheid, en as ons gaan kyk ...
[Tussenwerpsels.]
Ja, ek drink eintlik whiskey, nie brandewyn nie; jy is reg!
Maar wat ek eintlik wil sê is: as 'n mens gaan kyk na die wreedheid van spesifiek aanvalle – nie net transito aanvalle nie – word dit nou in baie ander aanvalle gebruik. Outomatiese wapens, wat nie in besit van private mense was nie, word gebruik, en dit wek kommer.
Die ander aspek is dié van dwelms. Ja ek weet, u sê ook self as Minister dat daar indringend daarna gekyk word, maar ek wil ook vir u sê dat dit kommerwekkend is as 'n mens in die buiteland ook op televisie en in nuusblaaie moet sien dat Suid-Afrika beskou word as 'n Mekka van dwelmhandel. Dit is 'n groot problem. Dis 'n persepsie wat reggestel moet word. 'n Mens kan verstaan dat, as jou vorige hoof van Polisie, die kommisaris, tereg staan op aanklagte dat hy korrupsie gepleeg het met die dwelmbase van Suid-Afrika ... [Tyd verstreke.]
Mr L T LANDERS
HON H GROENEWALD
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, in his book titled A man called Intrepid, Sir William Stephenson addresses the issue of national security in the following manner:
Among the increasingly intricate arsenals across the world, intelligence is an essential weapon, perhaps the most important. But it is, being secret, the most dangerous. Safeguards to prevent its abuse must be devised, revised and rigidly applied. But, as in all enterprises, the character and wisdom of those to whom it is entrusted will be decisive. In the integrity of that guardianship lies the hope of free people to endure and prevail.
This quotation, read with section 198 of our Constitution, in essence, typifies what we are about. It also explains why we are here today. Our role in this Parliament is to ensure that the South African taxpayer receives value for money from our intelligence services and agencies, whilst at the same time we must ensure that the enormous power placed in their hands is not abused.
Like others who spoke before me today I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all men and women of our intelligence services who strive to ensure that we can all sleep peacefully without fear of threat. They do so unheralded, unsung and usually unknown.
The hon Minister in his speech today said that 16 years into our democracy the White Paper on Intelligence needs to be reviewed. Hon Minister this announcement is opportune and most welcome. It brings me to the point that I want to make in my speech today. Much has been written and commented on around what is called the Ministerial Review Commission. As a committee we have not really had an opportunity or a platform to give our side of the story around this commission's report until now.
First, as a brief background, it was made clear to the committee that the commission was an initiative of the executive or the Cabinet. Despite our scepticism and a fair amount of concern, the Committee opted not to object to it or to oppose it. When the commission finally completed its work, as parliamentarians, we all expected a report that would follow the normal conventional processes, including its tabling in Parliament.
Instead, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was astonished to learn that copies of this report had been made available to certain media houses. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence's, JSCI, astonishment quickly turned into disappointment when certain members of the media, the former Minister of Intelligence, Mr Ronnie Kasrils, and a member of the commission, Prof Lorrie Nathan, accused the JSCI of not fulfilling its duties, for not considering the report and for not carrying out its recommendation. This is a perfect example of how not to deal with an official enquiry of this nature. However, noble and well-intentioned its goals and objectives may have been - and hon Minister we trust that you have taken note of this - you cannot demand that a parliamentary committee consider and implement the recommendations of the report that was tabled at the Mail and Guardian. The reason is that you show absolute distrust and disrespect for people who have been elected to carry out the work. I find it offensive that, whilst you completely ignored the laid down processes and procedures and failed or refused to formally place this report before the joint standing committee, then you publicly criticised us for not considering the report. The hon Maynier seems to find that favourable.
We have also been reliably informed that aspects of this report that was leaked to the media were still classified. Now the hon Maynier has no problem with that. If this is true, and we have no reason to doubt the veracity of this information, it places the authors of this report in an extremely invidious situation.
Chairperson, let me address some of the issues raised by hon Coetzee. Very early in my membership of the ANC I was approached by Cyril Ramaphosa and he had this to say to me, "you are very effective in raising and highlighting problems, but you are very ineffective in putting forward solutions". Listening very carefully to hon Coetzee, very few, if any, solutions came from his speech except, perhaps, if I understand him correctly, that everything should been drawn over. There should be no secrets. One is tempted to believe that there should be no intelligence services in South Africa.
Now, a very important point for hon Coetzee to remember is that the rights contained in our Constitution, which were fought for by the likes of Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, and O R Tambo, are not absolute. National legislation referred to by the hon Coetzee already exists in section 32 of our Constitution. That legislation is called the Promotion of Access to Information Act, and it was signed into law on 2 February 2000.
The integrity of South Africa's system of identity documents is crucial to our national security. Anything that negatively affects or impacts on the system constitutes a threat to our national security. It is with in this in mind that for some years now we have posed the following question to the Minister of Intelligence and to the heads of our intelligence services: Does the Department of Home Affairs constitute a threat to South Africa's national security? Thus far, the answer to that question has been "no", notwithstanding the endemic corruption and bribery within that department.
It was encouraging, therefore, to see the hon Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, concede on national television that the Department of Home Affairs has indeed become a threat to national security. One is even more heartened and encouraged by the steps she has taken to address the wide spread corruption within her department. The hon Minister deserves nothing but praise for her efforts in this regard. [Applause.]
I say this, Chairperson, for the following reasons: It is common knowledge that two foreign nationals in the not too distance past entered South Africa illegally. They then proceeded directly to an official who had been identified by them and obtained South African identity documents in exchange for cash, in the Department of Home Affairs. With those documents they applied for Visas and travelled to Britain. On arrival in Britain those two nationals were detained by British authorities.
The up-shot of it is that the British authorities place very stringent condition on South African travelling to Britain, and quite rightly so. I admit that the British have every right to do that. The South African system had been seriously compromised.
Now, in the not too distant past we learnt from the media that two senior members of Hamas were assassinated. Later it transpired that the assassinations were carried out by members of Israel Mossad. And then later it transpired that those two members of Mossad had obtained British travel and identity documents and indeed had landed on South African shores.
We had a situation were his Excellency the British Ambassador to South Africa appeared on television contextualising the decision by Britain to impose the strict condition that they had on South Africans travelling to that country. Would it be fair for us to expect him to do the same now that they formally handed British identity documents and travel documents to members of Mossad who travelled via South Africa because they were being pursued by international law enforcement agencies.
I leave that to you to answer. I have my own views on the matter. Perhaps hon Coetzee will now begin to understand why we have intelligence services. However, it brings into focus the good work the honourable women and men of our intelligence services carry out on a daily basis. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr L T LANDERS
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all the members for the positive contribution they've made. I hope that your inputs today have instilled the sense of confidence to our citizens that we have to unite when dealing with these matters of national security.
Chairperson, I don't have enough time, but I'll make an attempt to deal with some of the specific questions which has been raised. The first one is about financial controls and accountability. I just want to reassure members that we still remain very committed to account to Parliament. We see the value of accounting to Parliament; we see the value of interacting with the inspector-general and the Auditor-General because it is only through these institutions that we can identify our gaps and improve our capabilities as intelligence community.
Some members have spoken about our private company called Comsec, formally Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd. It is true - and we have reported this to the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment, JCI, Committee - that there are challenges within this company. It was a company that was suppose to be a private company but operating within the public sector of intelligence community. There were challenges right from its birth so the fault doesn't only lie with those who are managing it. It is in this respect that we undertook to restructure the intelligence community to streamline these components and entities.
In this regard, it is true that we have been working very close with the Auditor-General and there are still problems. Last year, we did ask the board – because it is a private company – to do a wind-up report so that it could be presented and we would be able to wind-up the company, because the National Treasury did allow us to wind-up the company so that it can become a branch of the State Security Agency. It is my intention that in the next coming few days we dissolve the Comsec Board because it has failed to give that report for over six months, now. We will move in speed to incorporate the concept back to the State Security Agency so that they can start putting the measures in place.
On the 2008 Ministerial Review Commission Report –Mr Landers has adequately dealt with the matter – I would also like to emphasise that, as government, we considered this matter. Some of the issue which were contained in that report are part of the review which we are already undertaking. The difficulty is that the report didn't follow the normal procedures. It didn't finalise these processes in the Cabinet; it was not approved by the Cabinet, but while the Cabinet was still considering the report it was leaked to the media and it was there. There was no way that the Cabinet could endorse such processes because that is undermining all processes and the procedures of Parliament. In short, while that report may have some of the important issues that we are incorporating in our own restructuring it has no official status in government. Therefore, we will not table that report to Parliament.
Chairperson, I want to comment on the killing of farmers – I'm sure Nyambose will also be able to deal with this matter at length, tomorrow. There is no evidence that the killing of farmers predominantly emanates from illegal arms which come from outside the country. Most of the criminal syndicates who operate may include people who may be foreign nationals and have South Africans as their leaders. It is our own citizens who lead these syndicates that commit these crimes, but I think the issue of reducing the firearms in the community in general and removing illegal firearms is the project which we fully support as government. In this regard, Minister Mthethwa did extent amnesty – I think it just expired – to all the citizens who do not need these weapons. When they come and rob you in your house, the first thing they look for is your safe and your gun; and that is how get these legal guns are being converted into illegal firearms.
One of the members commented on this killing of farmers. Our plea is that we should not politicise this killing of farmers. Killing of farmers is a criminal matter and it must be dealt as a rule of law matter. It is very important, because we have seen this with the recent killing of the leader of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, AWB, where some of the members of the community were trying to politicise this matter or even claiming that some liberation song contributed to such killing. We have not seen that evidence. I think it is important, because the whole world was looking at this matter and were very happy about the way this government has dealt with the matter as a rule of law. In this regard, even President Obama recently praised President Zuma saying that they have full confidence now in South Africa regarding the fact that we can deal with the challenges the way we dealt with this killing. In short, we call upon all political leaders to condemn such killings; for the donor sisters as a nation to move forward; and for the donor sisters in ensuring that there is this cohesion because it's through this unity that we can assure that everyone prospers in South Africa.
To clarify some mandates on the Border Management Agency, BMA, we will come back to Parliament once the process has gone through the process of government authorisation. As we have said, we have finished the feasibility study; the task team led by the directors-general has done its work; and we are now taking that feasibility studies for scrutiny by the Department of Public Service Administration and the National Treasury so that when we form it we ensure that their correct level of personnel to do these functions and are clarified and budget is available for it to operate. As we said, we are not waiting for the actual formation of this Border Management Agency, but we are taking steps to ensure that we close all these gaps, that is why we are busy trying to increase the capacity of the existing or current Border Co-ordinating Committee in order to reduce any vulnerabilities as we move towards the 2010 Fifa World Cup.
We are working very close with the Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Nkosazana Zuma, on the identity documents, ID, fraud matter. We believe that the problems she has put in place and working with the whole security cluster will be able to overcome this problem. The Minister has urged us as Members of Parliament and the community in general that one of the weakest points in the ID fraud is that we allow the late registration of birth where people as old as I am come and apply for a birth certificate. Once you get a birth certificate; you get access to all our documents. We hope that the members will spread this message, because it is very common that you get people from our neighbouring countries claiming - but not even having any African origin - that they were born in these neighbouring countries and claim these documents. We are not just limiting ourselves to IDs or improving the integrity of the identity documents; this year we will move to other critical data bases whether in transport or economic departments to ensure that they also have the integrity, because, if not, that may have negative consequences on our own economic development and progress.
Lastly, on the issue of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, we would like to reassure that, as of today, we have been working with all security agencies around the world and we have been asking them if there was anything they hear elsewhere which might become a threat to this tournament; none of them have said that there is a specific threat.
As we have said, we are not lowering our guard but we will continue to co-operate and we have a plan - General Cele has put this plan to the world and everyone has accepted it. We are working around that plan, but we also have a plan through our National Disaster Plan in case of any disaster which might happen during the event so that we would not be found wanting in that respect.
Some members have complained that the figures about tourism seem to be declining. But all of us know that the effect of global recession has had a significant impact not only on South Africa, but around the world. People are losing jobs; people are having very little disposal of cash in their pockets. But despite that, as we go around the country and the world, we see a lot of enthusiasm of people who want to come and witness this world event in South Africa. So, we will welcome them on 11 June and we hope that every South African will contribute in ensuring that this event is enjoyable and memorable. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr Mlangeni): Members are reminded that the Extended Public Committee, EPC, on Public Works will meet in the Committee Room E249 at 16:30, today. That is in here; you simply have to stretch your feet and backs.
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 16:03.
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