Hansard: Appropriation Bill : Debate on Vote No 2 - Parliament / Consideration of Committee Reports
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 10 May 2010
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
TUESDAY, 11 MAY 2010
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_________
The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
Start of Day
NEW MEMBER
(Announcement)
The Speaker announced that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr M A Mangena on 1 May 2010 had been filled by the nomination of Mr K J Dikobo, with effect from 1 May 2010. The member had made and subscribed the oath in the Speaker's office on 11 May 2010.
The SPEAKER
The SPEAKER
NEW MEMBER
(Announcement)
The Speaker further announced that the vacancy which occurred in the
National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr B W Dhlamini on
4 May 2010 had been filled by the nomination of Mr K P Sithole, with effect from 4 May 2010.
The SPEAKER
The SPEAKER
OATH
Mr K P Sithole, accompanied by Mr R N Cebekhulu, made and subscribed the oath and took his seat.
MOTIONS_WITHOUT_NOTICE
The SPEAKER
CELEBRATION OF INTERNATIONAL NURSES DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that International Nurses Day is celebrated around the world on 12 May annually on the anniversary of Florence Nightingale's birth;
(2) further notes that the International Council of Nurses commemorates this important day each year with the production and distribution of the International Nurses Day kit;
(3) recalls that the International Council of Nurses has celebrated this day since 1965 and that in January 1974, a decision was taken to celebrate the day on 12 May 2009, the anniversary of the birth of Florence Nightingale on 12 May 1820, who is widely considered the founder of modern nursing;
(4) recognises that today nurses combine science and care to provide a health care service that not only saves lives, but also builds on the legacy of compassion of Florence Nightingale; and
(5) expresses its gratitude to all the nurses in South Africa as they are the backbone of our health care system.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
Mr E J LUCAS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
DEATH OF 23 PEOPLE IN A BUS ACCIDENT BETWEEN DE DOORNS AND TOUWS RIVER
(Draft Resolution)
Mr E J LUCAS: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes –
(a) that on 5 May 2010, 23 people died when the bus that they were travelling in crashed into a concrete barrier along the N1 highway between De Doorns and Touws River and rolled down the steep hillside between double-lane highways; and
(b) that the bus was overloaded, the license of the bus had expired and that the bus had been declared unroadworthy last year;
(2) expresses its sincere condolences to the families of those
who lost their lives in the accident; and
(3) calls upon relevant authorities to put measures in
place to ensure that such accidents are avoided in future.
Thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr E J LUCAS
DEATH OF SHEENA DUNCAN
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes with deep sadness that one of South Africa's anti-apartheid stalwarts, Sheena Duncan, died on the morning of 4 May 2010 at the age of 78;
(2) further notes that Duncan was the founder of the Black Sash and that she had earned respect for her independent thinking and commitment to fighting for justice, and she represented the exploited masses;
(3) recalls that Duncan, as a leading woman activist, gave support to hundreds of detained anti- apartheid leaders in the 1980s and that these included leaders of the banned ANC which was then represented by the United Democratic Front, civic, youth, media and women's organisations;
(4) believes that Sheena Duncan will be sorely missed for her
contribution and principled commitment in the fight
against apartheid oppression, which led to the realization
of the dream of a democratic and nonracial South Africa;
and
(5) conveys its heartfelt condolences to the Duncan family, relatives and friends.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
Ms C DUDLEY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CHARLOTTE MAXEKE JOHANNESBURG ACADEMIC HOSPITAL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that Charlotte Maxeke Hospital in Johannesburg
is the first hospital in South Africa to have its own school playground for chronically and terminally ill
children and that the playground had been planned and
designed by a panel of medical staff and specialists to
take into account the physical frailties of the children,
enabling them to continue learning and developing while in
hospital;
(2) further notes that 90% of the school's pupils
are in hospital because of cancer or liver failure;
(3) commends the hospital school, which caters for children
from Grade R to Grade 12, on this initiative and the
excellent example set;
(4) acknowledges that this achievement embraces public-private
partnerships to the benefit of the people of South Africa;
and
(5) congratulates the Minister of Health, Gauteng's MEC for
Health and Social Development, Ms Ronel van Biljon,
principal of the Johannesburg Hospital School, and the
chairman and chief executive officer of Medscheme.
Thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Ms C DUDLEY
DEATH OF NIGERIAN PRESIDENT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
(1) notes with profound sadness the death of Nigerian
President Umaru Yar'Adua, who passed away on 5 May 2010 at
the age of 58, after a long battle with kidney and heart
ailments;
(2) further notes that President Yar'Adua had been absent from
the political scene since November 2009 when he left for
medical treatment in Saudi Arabia, from where he returned
to Nigeria in February but remained too sick to govern;
(2) remembers that President Yar'Adua's journey into politics
began when he became an active member of and mobiliser for
the defunct People's Redemption Party and that he was one of the founding members of the People's Front - a political association under the leadership of his elder brother, the late Major-General Shehu Musa Yar'Adua - during the Babangida transitions programme, and that this association later became the Social Democratic Party;
(4) further remembers that during his tenure as the governor
of Katsina State, there had been unprecedented development
in that state in the educational and health sector,
provision of rural and urban roads, electrification of
rural and urban areas, water supply and agriculture;
(5) recalls that he had been proven to be prudent, accountable
and transparent in his leadership and that the state now
enjoys a surplus of N6,56 billion from an empty treasury
and backlogs of debts which he met as a governor in 1999,
and that as a result, he had won the National Primary
Education Productivity Merit Award in 2004 and the best
Governor Award of the Central Bank of Nigeria under the
Agricultural Credit Guarantee Scheme in 2005;
(6) further recalls that the South African government had the
privilege of hosting the late President Umaru Yar'Adua and
his delegation in June 2008;
(7) acknowledges President Yar'Adua as a genuine peacemaker,
whose initiatives, humility and respect began to bring
confidence to the peace process in Nigeria; and
(8) conveys its deepest sympathy to his family, friends,
colleagues and the people of Nigeria and assures them that
the prayers and thoughts of the House go out to them
during their time of mourning.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONTINUED EXISTENCE OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON PROTECTION OF INFORMATION LEGISLATION
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
(1) notwithstanding –
(a) Rule 214(6)(c), which provides that an ad hoc
committee ceases to exist if it has not completed its task by the date set for the completion of its task; and
(b) a resolution adopted by the House on 18 March 2010 that the Ad Hoc Committee on Protection of Information Legislation had to report by 7 May 2010;
(2) condones the continued existence of the ad hoc committee; and
(3) extends the deadline by which it has to report to 30
September 2010.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
EXTENSION OF DEADLINE OF REPORT OF AD
HOC COMMITTEE ON CO-ORDINATED OVERSIGHT ON SERVICE DELIVERY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House, notwithstanding the resolution it adopted on 18
February 2010, resolves to extend the deadline by which the Ad
Hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery
under the theme "working together to ensure the delivery of
quality service to communities"has to report to 30 July 2010.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
APPOINTMENT ACTING CHAIRPERSONS TO CHAIR MEETINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC
COMMITTEES
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House ratifies the decision of the Speaker taken in
terms of Rule 2 of the Rules of the National Assembly and
published in Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports on 3
May 2010, page 1156, to appoint Acting Chairpersons to
chair meetings of Extended Public Committees.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
The SPEAKER
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
APPROPRIATION BILLDebate on Vote No 2 - Parliament:
The SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, Ntate Kgalema Motlanthe, hon members and esteemed guests, we are exactly one year into the fourth Parliament of our young democracy. This year has been characterised by robust, wide-ranging, informative and, at times, entertaining debates. The atmosphere is, I would argue, one of heightened engagement and commitment to making a difference. This is a healthy development which, I hope, we can harness, direct and benefit from.
The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act that we are implementing now provides Parliament with a window of opportunity in respect of our oversight work. Our focus has sharpened, and this budget will show how we intend to direct our energies and resources and also build on the legacy of previous Parliaments. We must be responsive and proactive as we seek to play an increasingly meaningful role in addressing the hopes and aspirations of our people.
Deputy Speaker, it will be recalled that when I addressed this House during the debate on Parliament's Budget Vote for the 2009-10 financial year, the global financial crisis was at its peak. During this period, our own economy shrank by about 1,8%, with mining and manufacturing output decreasing by 17%, and, critically, more than 900 000 jobs were lost.
However, this year we have seen better than expected recovery from the economic crisis, with a projected economic growth of 2,3% for 2010 rising to 3,6% by 2012. This morning, in his Budget Vote, Minister Pravin Gordhan said: "Revenue was about R8 billion more than expected, and expenditure a bit less. The budget deficit was 6,7% of the gross domestic product, GDP, which was rather better than the 7,3% that was anticipated, even though it was considerably wider than the 1% of GDP recorded in 2008-09."
Minister Gordhan also mentioned that "nationally and internationally, economic and financial developments continue to present formidable challenges, both to our understanding of the growth and development process and to the practical implementation of policy and government programmes". As our country, government and people grapple with these challenges, our work in Parliament continues to be to hold the executive to its promises and to work with them in lessening the hardships faced by the most vulnerable amongst us. Accountability and representation lie at the heart of democracy. Parliament is the central institution of any democracy through which the will of the people is expressed, laws are passed and government is held to account. Addressing the needs and concerns of our people must continue to be our primary objective.
We have started this fourth Parliament by setting strategic directions as expressed in our policy imperatives for 2009 to 2014, which was tabled in November 2009 and approved by the Parliamentary Oversight Authority this year. This Parliament will focus on the following five priorities: strengthening the oversight function; increasing public participation; strengthening co-operative government; widening the role of Parliament in international relations; and continuing to build an efficient, effective, and powerful institution of democracy. In this regard, we seek to ensure that Parliament develops into a strong institution that plays a significant role in democratic governance.
The first strategic policy priority is to establish mechanisms and processes for more effective oversight over the executive and to create a dedicated capacity for enhanced content support for committees, as well as a skills development programme for Members of Parliament. The implementation task team responsible for implementing the oversight model is expected to report on its progress to the Joint Rules Committee by the end of August 2010. Hon Chairperson Bapela will talk more about this issue later on.
The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, a key new oversight tool, enables Parliament to hold government accountable. For the first time, the South African Parliament has the power to amend the Budget, thus giving us the teeth to do effective oversight work. The challenge now is for committees and individual Members of Parliament to put their shoulders to the wheel and turn theory into practice and potential into concrete results. The Act is also not just about the Budget and Parliament's power to amend the Budget. In fact, I would argue that this Act prescribes a whole new approach to the budgetary process as it enables Parliament to interrogate the strategic deployment of resources by government. As such, knowledge and familiarity with this legislation and with budgetary processes is a key requirement for every member of this House. [Applause.]
While the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act does not confer on Parliament's carte blanche to amend the fiscal framework, strategic focus or even actual Budget allocations, the hand of Parliament to influence these is, however, considerably strengthened and enhanced. As already mentioned, the key challenge in the implementation of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act is to ensure that every member and every committee of this House has a detailed and thorough understanding of the working and expectation of this legislation. This is indeed one of the focus areas in the capacity-building programme for Members of Parliament. I understand that a two-day orientation workshop for members on the Money Bill will take place on 19 and 20 May, and I urge all members to make the time to attend.
The Act also makes provision for the establishment of a parliamentary budget office. This office will provide independent, objective and professional research, advice and analysis to Parliament on matters related to the Budget and other Money Bills. We need to ensure that in setting up this office, we take the opportunity to learn and benefit from other parliaments around the world that have already established similar budget offices.
Another key instrument for oversight is, of course, questions posed by Members of Parliament to the President and the executive. The Leader of Government Business, as we all know, is responsible for the co-ordination of the executive's interaction with Parliament, and together we have addressed the backlog of unanswered questions which has led to some improvement in this regard. This, of course, is an ongoing process. Secondly, the quality of questions and replies, as well as the timeframes within which questions are replied to, is also under discussion, and we are expecting substantive improvements in this regard too.
The second strategic policy priority focuses on increasing public participation in the work of Parliament, especially in committees. We have realised the critical need to broaden public involvement in Parliament beyond our engagement with organised civil society organisations. Parliament must find ways through which ordinary citizens, even in the remote parts of our country, have access to Parliament and its processes.
Strengthening co-operative government is the third strategic policy priority for Parliament. The Speakers' Forum, comprised of the Presiding Officers of the National Assembly and all Speakers from the provincial legislatures, strives to promote coherence, co-operation and interdependence between national and provincial legislative sectors. In addition, Parliament aims to embark on an ambitious project to increase its contribution to nation-building through enhancing unity and democracy in our country.
The fourth strategic priority for our Parliament seeks to improve and strengthen Parliament's role in international relations. It also envisages a greater role for Parliament in the formative stages of international agreements and treaties. There has been a growing recognition that Parliament's role in international policy development must extend to more than mere ratification of treaties. Consultation between Parliament and government prior to and during negotiations of international agreements should take place as a matter of course. The need for Parliament's active participation in this process is also recognised by the executive. This was further affirmed in the Budget Vote for the Department of Trade and Industry, and there, Minister Davies recommended that Parliament reviews its Rules to assert its constitutional power in ensuring greater participation during the negotiation phase of international trade agreements entered into by the executive. The Oversight Model currently being implemented also recommends that an oversight and accountability mechanism be established to give effect to this role of Parliament in international affairs.
In addition to ensuring Parliament's participation in international affairs, we also believe that strengthening regional and international institutions will assist in advancing regional co-operation and thereby help to consolidate Africa's position on international issues. We recognize the need to strengthen our regional and continental parliamentary bodies such as the SADC Parliamentary Forum and the Pan-African Parliament, which we host in South Africa. We also need to endow these institutions with the necessary political, material, financial and human resources necessary to carry out their mission.
The fifth strategic policy priority is to build an effective and efficient Parliament which subscribes to good governance, a high standard of professional ethics, and efficient use of scarce resources. The Financial Management of Parliament Act, which came into effect on 21 April 2009, requires of us as public representatives to uphold the highest standard of professional ethics in the management of public finances. The primary message that I believe members and management of Parliament must take from this Act is to ensure that Parliament is an example of best practice in the management of public funds. Parliament's Accounting Officer, in the person of the Secretary to Parliament, must ensure that unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure is prevented and that appropriate steps are taken where such has occurred. Financial misconduct by any official of Parliament will be dealt with seriously and to the full extent of the provisions of the Act.
I now wish to turn to the actual allocations in the 2010-11 financial year. This year, Parliament received a total allocation of R1,572 billion, an increase of just over 6% relative to last year's budget allocation. This represents 1,92% of the total national Budget. This figure of R1,572 billion is divided into five Programme areas. The allocation for the Administration of Parliament is R317 million; the allocation for Legislation and Oversight is R282 million, and of this, R45 million goes to committees, which represents a R10 million increase for this financial year. The allocation for Public Participation and International Participation is R87 million. The allocation for Members' Facilities is R211 million. Members' remuneration is a direct charge against the National Revenue Fund and amounts to R393 million.
Parliament spent 94% of its total budget allocation during the 2009-10 financial year. This is a marked improvement when compared to previous financial years. Parliament's retained revenue has decreased significantly from R322 million in the 2006-07 financial year to R142 million in the 2009-10 financial year.
However, there are certain areas of our budget in the last financial year where underspending was particularly problematic. In reviewing the previous budget performance, the total allocation to committees of the National Assembly in the 2009-10 financial year, excluding internal management and joint committees, was R12,4 million. Preliminary indications are that committees spent only 69% of this allocation. This budget performance is attributed largely to the fact that this was a transitional year. Much of the year was spent on establishing new committees and in planning activities of the committees. If we agree - and I believe we do - that committees are the engine rooms of Parliament, where the actual work of Parliament is carried out, then any underexpenditure in functional area is certainly undesirable and in fact unacceptable.
The fourth Parliament only began to fully function in June 2009 after the induction of MPs and the establishment of committees. I must also point out that the-one-size-fits-all approach to the allocation of funds to committees, about which committees have rightly complained, is under review. It is recognised that these are some of the reasons for some underspending.
It is also important to emphasize that underspending could also be viewed as the result of bad planning and budgeting or the lack of capacity to spend effectively. In fact, underexpenditure of public funds is viewed with the same seriousness as overexpenditure since unspent allocations could have been utilised for other purposes. Where there are management problems or bottlenecks in the allocation and release of funds for committee work, this must be rectified as a matter of urgency.
I am encouraged that most committees, if not all, of the National Assembly have embarked on strategic planning processes and crafted strategic plans. We need to see the planned programmes of committees to know what additional resources, if any, are required and how these will be spent.
We have recognised the demands for better tools of trade and have attempted to address your requirements. Hon Skosana will again speak about this issue. We hope that the increased support and more to come will enhance your productivity. The wellbeing of members and staff of Parliament is, of course, a concern of the management of Parliament.
Before concluding, it would be remiss of me not to mention the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup kicking off in a month's time. The National Assembly has on three occasions shown our commitment to the event by passing two motions and hosting a joint debate with the NCOP on preparations for the Fifa World Cup. In June, before kickoff, the National Assembly will again have a debate on the World Cup, and it is hoped that the Fifa leadership, including Sepp Blatter and the Bafana Bafana squad will attend. In fact, to prepare members for their oversight work during the tournament, the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation, I am told, has organised a one-day training workshop at the Cape Town stadium. The training will focus on two issues. One is the optimum use of the vuvuzela, and the other is techniques of the diski dance. [Laughter.]
In a month's time, we will host the first Fifa Soccer World Cup on the African continent. As the world converges on our shores, we will be transformed from a rainbow nation to a rainbow of nations in arguably the world's biggest, most significant and most colourful sporting festival. South Africa, and indeed the rest of Africa, is all geared to welcome the world to a rich experience of culture, vibrancy and traditional African hospitality.
Our thoughts and, yes, even prayers are with Bafana Bafana. You will join me in hoping that Bafana Bafana will lift the trophy and make us proud. However, it doesn't matter which team wins; in the end, the beautiful game of soccer will be the winner. I thank you. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The SPEAKER
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members and distinguished guests, Parliament is a prime institution of representative democracy in our country. It consists of different parties with diverse ideological orientation and constituencies. However, all parties in this Parliament agree with our strategic objective of creating a nonracial, nonsexist, united, democratic and prosperous South Africa in which the value of all citizens is measured by our common humanity.
We have all endorsed the strategic priorities of government. This means that nation-building, social cohesion and delivery of quality services to all South Africans, both black and white, should be common concerns of all of us. This institution should, therefore, serve as a critical forum and resource for the expansion of transformational policies.
The ANC is also committed to respecting the Constitution, the independence of the judiciary, regular multiparty elections, equality before the law, and the strengthening of Chapter 9 institutions.
The fundamental role of Parliament is that of nation-building, legislation and oversight. Through its committees, Parliament should participate in the strengthening of representative and participatory democracy, the processing of legislation and ensuring sound public finance management. Our oversight model requires the establishment of mechanisms and processes for increased oversight.
We have characterised this institution as an activist Parliament, and its constituency offices as one-stop centres which should be optimally used for the outreach of Parliament. These one-stop centres or Parliamentary Constituency Offices must form part of a public involvement strategy focusing on public education, social mobilisation for nation-building, social cohesion and provision of information and mechanisms for popular participation and accountability.
The current budget allocation to Parliament should serve as a resource to support the nation-building heritage initiatives, the needs of Members of Parliament, constituency work and research capacity that will bolster the quality of debate and strengthen the oversight role of Parliament. In addition to the ability to generate information, the ability to challenge reports and question information supplied by the executive remains a challenge for this Parliament.
Parliament must connect with the people and act as their voice. It is a central institution in the advancement of the policy of both representative and participatory democracy. Accordingly, it must not only serve as an important platform for monitoring and advancing the priorities of government, but must also connect with the people through one-stop centre Parliamentary Constituency Offices to ensure popular participation. These offices should also facilitate development to ensure that people become their own liberators from poverty and underdevelopment. The ANC has the primary responsibility to resource Parliament and improve the role it plays towards building a developmental state based on the Freedom Charter and our Constitution.
Working together with other spheres of government, Parliament needs to foster increased co-operation to ensure the socioeconomic upliftment of our people. Our Parliament is one that is robust but constructive in its work for the better life of our people. In this regard, Parliament stands for the aspirations and needs of our people in a programmatic manner. This means that legislation and decisions that are taken and passed by the people's Parliament must result in the achievement of our five priorities.
The ANC manifesto endorses the principle of accountability and oversight role of deployees of the ANC to accelerate service delivery to create a better life for all South Africans. The work of public representatives needs to focus on strengthening linkages between people and their elected representatives. The visits of the ANC to service delivery hotspots have shown that the people have confidence in this government. They are still looking towards it for better and quality service delivery.
People require public representatives and officials to connect with them, report back and communicate the challenges facing government. Such interactions - as we have seen, for instance, with Orange Farm, Diepsloot and Kya Sands - helped to address the so-called "service delivery protests" and restored the confidence of the affected communities in this government. This was an affirmation of the critical role of an activist Parliament.
On 25 May 2010 Parliament will celebrate Africa Day. This celebration will be used to raise awareness about the African Agenda and renewal and the key role of unity and co-operation for peace-building and development on the continent. The celebration will also highlight the importance of establishing friendly societies on the continent and beyond.
The recent enactment of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act of 2009 has deepened Parliament's authority as enshrined in the Constitution. The Act gives Parliament the powers, for the first time since 1994, to amend the Budget, thereby ensuring that it is synchronised with the priorities our people have set for us. The Act allows Parliament to establish a budget office and appoint a director who will oversee its management, as the Speaker pointed out.
The work of government has become complex; it sometimes requires Rules to be amended, a dedicated support system and the necessary skills. The continued development of members and the preservation of knowledge are of critical importance. These developments should be aimed at empowering members for oversight-related work in plenary, committee processes and constituency work.
Parliament is elected to represent the people, ensure government by the people under the Constitution and represent provinces in the national sphere of government. In this regard, Parliament has a responsibility to ensure that public forums form part of democratic processes by understanding the role of Parliament and its involvement in the processes. This places an obligation on Parliament to ensure that democratic processes are well known and that they reach all citizens of our country. Thus, Parliament in its nature is a nation-building institution.
Taking Parliament to the people, announced or unannounced visits, matters of public hearings during the processing of Bills and the invitation of the contribution of experts and civil society strengthen the people's Parliament and deepens participatory democracy. Parliament is constituted by the National Assembly and the NCOP. Therefore, the practice of taking Parliament to the people must involve both Houses and not only the NCOP as it is currently the situation.
Our position emphasises the need for effective oversight and the building of a strong activist Parliament. This implies that Parliament is expected to play a vigorous oversight role over government departments to ensure accountability in the use of budget and necessary interventions for the acceleration of service delivery. Effective parliamentary oversight has thus become all the more crucial to ensure that these new responses are devised and implemented with full transparency and accountability. Parliamentarians are in regular contact with electorates and are well placed to ascertain their views. They can subsequently raise people's concerns in Parliament and ensure service delivery.
The work and impact of Parliament must be realized in such ways that people are keenly made aware of the role of Parliament. Constituency offices must be optimally used for the outreach of Parliament. These must form the centre of a public involvement strategy focusing on public education, the provision of education and the provision of mechanisms of participation and accountability.
The ANC manifesto endorses the principle of accountability and oversight role of deployees of the ANC to accelerate services for a better life of all our people. The collective work of Parliament and that of individual members needs to focus on strengthening linkages between people and their elected representatives. Our public representatives must be assisted to hold public hearings and involve the public in legislation and issues before Parliament. Committees must ensure mechanisms of working within communities to enhance the understanding of the role of Parliament in society as a whole.
Our democracy is both representative and participatory, and the Constitution provides for public participation processes of Parliament. The current public participation processes have to be reviewed to ensure that all sectors of society, including the rural, the poor and the youth are provided with greater access to committees, public hearings and the overall processes of Parliament. Parliament, as a central institution for advancement of representative and participatory democracy, must provide a platform for robust debate, constructive information, the provision hope and aspirations for the nation and the contestation of ideas in order to make responsive and legitimate decision for a better life for all our people.
Section 45 of our Constitution states that a Joint Rules Committee must be established for the purpose of making Rules and Orders concerning the joint business of the Assembly and the Council. This matter will be given appropriate attention. In this regard, the Joint Rules Committee is the appropriate body to advise Parliament, in respect of the joint business of Parliament, on the manner in which it conducts constitutional mandates.
The vigorous oversight role of Parliament will eventually eliminate the quantum of qualified audits. Irrespective of merits and demerits of such qualified audits and circumstances thereof, this situation has a bearing on service delivery to our people. In the same vein, our understanding of oversight role, transparency and accountability should not be seen as a matter of conflict. We need to work together in dignity and respect each other's mandates.
We must ensure that our Parliament is respected by our respective constituencies, both the ruling party and the opposition parties. Let us put the interests of this institution at heart primarily more than any other sectional interests. Our Ministers should remain vigilant in doing their parliamentary business, particularly in areas of questions to the Ministers. In this context, members put questions to the executive for oral or written reply. Questions may be put to the President, Deputy President or Ministers. We also know that questions and replies constitute the oversight function, including the tabling of reports in Parliament by institutions accounting to it.
Indeed, annual reports are tabled by national departments, state institutions supporting constitutional democracy and other entities. Our oversight model requires government officials and Ministers to appear before them. The importance of oversight's overarching role includes activities such as report scrutiny, briefings to committees and budget processes. These must advance quality service to the people and social justice.
The ANC is committed to good governance and quality service to our people. As a ruling party, it seeks to enhance accountability and high performance standards by its deployees. We all have to comply with created mechanisms to ensure the developmental improvement of services that are rendered to our people.
The promotion of ethical and democratic values and leading by example is rooted in the ANC traditions. We are in the forefront in leading society in the fight against corruption. Our movement and government must work towards ensuring anticorruption values in continental and international structures. Our election manifesto prohibits politicians from tempering with tender adjudications and calls for transparency in tendering systems. This is to ensure stronger accountability of public servants involved in tendering.
Section 35 of the ANC constitution urges cadres of our movement to improve the capacity to serve the people and to build contact with the people. We need to raise the profile of the ANC deployees and accountability to Parliament. Our sincere conduct will debunk some public perceptions that view Parliament positions as a source of personal riches. It will debunk the myth that associates Parliament's positions with the issuing of contracts to commercial companies and individuals. Our Parliament must be seen as an institution that is led by people with moral and political integrity.
In conclusion, the ANC as an organisation will promote accountability and greater performance of its deployees in all spheres of government. We need to improve services to our people in the broader scheme of things. The challenges of service provision arise not fundamentally from a shortage of people, but from problems of skills and systems to deploy its human and financial resources. Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 2: Parliament. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Deputy President, I am very happy that the Speaker referred to accountability lying at the heart of democracy and therefore the first strategic priority that we have is one of strengthening our oversight function.
You will forgive me if I concentrate on that for one moment. Section 42 of the Constitution gives Parliament a number of core functions, one of which is that of scrutinising and overseeing executive action. Section 55 mandates us to provide for mechanisms for that oversight and to make the executive accountable.
Parliament, I believe, has formally acted on this mandate by adopting in 2009 the oversight and accountability conceptual model. This model spelt out a number of mechanisms and processes to effect the oversight, including portfolio and select committees, Budget Votes, questions, members' statements, notices of motions, etc.
Parliament's strategic document for the 2009 to 2014 period recognises that one of Parliament's core objectives is to oversee and scrutinise the executive. It incorporates the conceptual model and recognises the need to develop and strengthen the oversight function and establish a strong culture of overseeing executive action.
I think the words "establish a strong culture" are important. You see, Mr Speaker, we have, as I have indicated, a constitutional imperative – and we have developed an excellent model – and we can strengthen mechanisms. But unless we develop a strong culture of exercising oversight, we will have no more than a façade of democracy. And this culture is one which has to be accepted and adopted, not only by Members of Parliament, but, most importantly, by members of the executive over whom oversight is exercised.
It is that culture which I want to address, because the culture, I believe, is far from being well established in this House. On the contrary, if there is a culture it is one of timidity in the willingness of many members in this House to hold Ministers to account, and in respect of many Ministers, there is an unwillingness, if not a hostility, to openly subject themselves to that oversight and accountability.
Questions to Ministers, both written and oral, are an excellent example. You referred to them as vexed questions, Mr Speaker. They are recognised in the strategy document as one of the key mechanisms to exercise oversight and ensure accountability. Yet many Ministers do not take their responsibility seriously at all. It is a matter of record how many written questions are either not answered within the timeframe set out in the Rules, or, worse still, not answered at all.
As of yesterday, 515 questions asked this year by the DA are out of time. We are still waiting for answers to 114 questions of last year. Even when questions are answered – and this is particularly the case with oral questions – the answers are very often either nonanswers, flippant, frivolous or an exercise in obfuscation.
But questions are not the only problematic area. Many Ministers seldom, if ever, appear before portfolio committees. One Minister has recently refused to appear in future before Scopa, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Parliament's pre-eminent watchdog.
The time set aside for members' statements in the House is poorly attended by Ministers. These statements to the House are supposed to be the opportunity for Ministers to respond on current, topical issues affecting their portfolios. This process is more often than not a waste of time, because very often the appropriate Minister isn't there and a substitute Minister very often doesn't know the subject and sometimes, even if the appropriate Minister is there, that Minister plays to the gallery as opposed to engaging in a constructive exchange with the member concerned.
So, notwithstanding the section in the Constitution, notwithstanding the oversight and accountability model, notwithstanding the Rules which have been developed over a period of time, if the culture of oversight and accountability is weak, then the very Constitution itself is subverted, the models and Rules we have produced are abused and become cynical exercises, and the integrity and credibility of the very institution to which we are elected get called into question.
It is clear we all have to go through a distinct attitudinal change. We need to be vigorous in exercising oversight. And Minister Manuel is foremost is exhorting us to do just that, but Ministers also have to accept oversight and be willing to be brought to account. This requires a cultural shift.
Let me say as an aside. It is not acceptable for a Minister to refuse to appear in future before a committee and then cite some dubious technical reason to justify such nonappearance. I would have thought that section 56 of the Constitution, which gives the right to a committee of Parliament to summon any person to appear before it, is sufficient in this regard. This refusal, though, exemplifies the cultural change that is needed. We look forward, Mr Speaker, to your intervention to rectify this attitude, to reinforce the culture of oversight and to assert the supremacy of this Parliament.
The oversight and accountability model is an excellent document. We need to live that document in the context in which it is written, but we also need to extend it.
We need to ask ourselves what the mechanisms are for us as parliamentarians to exercise oversight over our own institution. In the running of Parliament, how acceptable and accountable are the presiding officers? Two bodies are important in this regard. In respect of parliamentary business, it is the Joint Rules Committee, and in respect of parliamentary oversight of services and administration, it is the Parliamentary Oversight Authority. Both bodies meet infrequently. The Joint Rules Committee has met only three times during the fourth Parliament.
During the third Parliament the DA forwarded mechanisms to enliven debate, promote the debate of current issues and enhance oversight in this House. We submitted these proposals again in the fourth Parliament, because they were not debated in the third Parliament. However, these proposals have yet to see the light of day on any agenda, at any time and in any forum. A sense of inertia pervades.
In respect of the Parliamentary Oversight Authority, it too has met only four times in the life of the fourth Parliament. When meetings are held, they are set down for a limited period of time and the agendas are always full. There is little time for anything other than a superficial examination of the documentation provided, and little scope for real interrogation and monitoring of the policy directives for various services and facilities of Parliament and the levels and extent of their implementation.
Parliament is essentially run by presiding officers, and yet there is no public mechanism, either inside the Parliamentary Oversight Authority or outside, for the raising of questions about aspects of the administration of Parliament. In effect, there is little oversight and exceptionally poor mechanisms to ensure accountability.
By way of example. An article appeared in the Cape Argus in September last year alleging that a secret cartel ruled the tender process in Parliament. What public mechanism is there for us to interrogate this allegation and perhaps set the record straight? That which we demand of executive members in respect of their portfolios, we do not demand of our presiding officers in respect of their responsibilities.
Parliament also needs to look at its own internal decision-making process. The Parliamentary Oversight Authority has essentially three advisory entities: the Quarterly Consultative Forum, the Chief Whips' Forum and, of course, the Administration. Speaker, I have been a Chief Whip now for three years, and I have come to see the whole process of decision-making as a totally frustrating one. One often sees good suggestions coming out from the Quarterly Consultative Forum that go to the Administration for a report. They then go back to the Quarterly Consultative Forum, then go to the Chief Whips' Forum, then go back to the Administration, then come back to the Chief Whips' Forum, occasionally go up to the Parliamentary Oversight Authority, who kick it back down to possibly the Chief Whips' Forum, that then go back to the Administration. The whole process goes on like a merry-go-round or a bad game of football - lots of passing the ball, but no goals being scored.
Mr Speaker, this is something that we have to address as there seems to be an inability by ourselves as Parliament to actually take decisions in this regard. Quite frankly, anybody who originally proposed anything which had to go through these forums has to emerge totally confused, exhausted and, frankly, have given up hope. This is the reality. We seem, as I said, completely unable to take decisions.
In conclusion, Mr Speaker, the point I am making is simple. The strategy document is correct. We need to strengthen the culture of oversight and accountability, both in respect of the executive and indeed ourselves, and, in so doing, we need to take a hard look at our own governance model. I thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Chairperson, the year 2010 is a significant one for the continent of Africa and for our country in particular, as we prepare to host the most important event, the Fifa World Cup, in just 30 days.
Parliament's theme this year is also about one of our icons, who was released in February 20 years ago. It says: "Celebrating Mandela's Legacy – Nation-building". Throughout the world, the name of Mandela is echoed and reflected repeatedly.
We have a central role to play in ensuring that we exemplify his qualities of leadership, and it is necessary to draw on the relevant lessons learnt from this greatest icon of our time. We have learnt that he is firm in his convictions and consistent in his principles. He remained solid in pursuing the ideals of a nonracial, nonsexist, united, democratic and prosperous society. He put the interests of the nation above his own.
In a constitutional democracy such as South Africa, all arms of state are bound by the Constitution. The governance structure outlined in the Constitution provides the mechanisms through which governance, "based on the will of the people", is ensured.
We need urgently to develop a common understanding on oversight, what it is and what it entails, and we should not be having any pronouncements such as witnessed recently on whether the executive or any other public entity should or should not account before parliamentary committees.
The Constitution is categorically unambiguous in Chapter 5, clause 92, which must be read with section 93, and I quote:
Members of the executive are accountable collectively and individually to Parliament for the exercise of their powers and the performance of their functions …
And to –
… provide Parliament with full and regular reports concerning matters under their control and respond to recommendations or decisions of committees and the House.
However, the Constitution also compels Parliament to develop mechanisms and rules to execute its mandate of effecting accountability and overseeing the executive, or any organ of state. Such mechanisms exist in the form of portfolio, select and standing committees, with certain powers. It is therefore our duty to ensure that the authority of Parliament is asserted, respected and fulfilled. Members of Parliament must ask difficult questions, but those questions must be of quality, must question without fear or favour those issues arising from the reports that are submitted to Parliament, and if there is any wrongdoing, corruption or lack of delivery, such issues ought to be raised.
We need to maximise our value on oversight and accountability to include the scrutiny of reports coming to Parliament, as in the budget information; the performance information – the Auditor-General will be providing such audits with effect from this year - financial information, as in the monthly and quarterly reports, which is about the real money spent; and compliance information, which is about follow-ups, ensuring that there is compliance and that decisions that are taken by Parliament indeed are effected. Where there is undermining of such decisions, the Speaker should recommend that censure be applied to those responsible. We then also have to ensure that in the scrutiny of financial and other aspects, Scopa reports are also included.
We should also clarify the role of Scopa with regard to Ministers appearing before it. The Joint Rules Committee must enhance the Rules to reflect on the issue. The Public Finance Management Act says accounting officers are the officials in the departments, but in that Act emphasis is also placed on the fact that political authority and responsibility rests with executive members.
Therefore we should resolve these unnecessary tensions by proposing as follows. Firstly, Ministers should be invited to observe the proceedings, to take note on issues which sometimes they may not be aware of in their own departments, to enable them to take leadership on those issues as arising from the floor. Secondly, Ministers should appear before Scopa in instances when they are implicated in evidence before the committee, to come and answer questions on those implications. Thirdly, Ministers should appear before the committee if in two consecutive years, recommendations adopted by this House are not effected in their departments. Therefore, leadership will then be required from them to appear before Scopa to come and answer on these particular issues. [Applause.]
An amount of R45 million has been allocated to the committees of Parliament in the current budget, which covers a total of 54 committees, that is, 51 committees with oversight functions and 3 committees in-house committees, totalling 54 committees in both Houses. Only R45 million has been allocated.
We have also set aside an amount to cater for the new committee that is still to be established, a committee on The Presidency, whatever name it will assume. A task team has already been established and will be meeting next week to consider proposals from the NA Table and those submitted by parties, which will oversee The Presidency, in particular the Ministry on Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, including the National Youth Development Agency, the Ministry of National Planning, and other functions in The Presidency, such as the War on Poverty, Asgisa, Jipsa – if those programmes are still there – and so forth. The proposals will then lead to the establishment of a committee that oversees The Presidency. So, we have set aside that committee to be the 55th committee.
We welcome the increase from R135 million in the financial year 2008-09 to R145 million, which is R10 million more available to committees. However, the amount is not enough, hon Speaker, as committees ought to do oversight, oversight, oversight. [Applause.]
A number of only ten Bills have been submitted to Parliament this year, and therefore law-making is no longer an increasing activity for portfolio committees. Oversight ought to be the increasing activity for portfolio committees. [Applause.] Therefore, the amount of money allocated is not enough.
Take the example of Gauteng. Gauteng has 11 oversight committees, and they are receiving R32 million. Each committee gets up to R2 million. Our committees, unfortunately, with the number that we have, some will get R600 000, some R700 000, R800 000, up to R1 million. Unfortunately, we cannot give you more, because the money is too little. So, we will try to engage the authorities that the money needs to be increased in that direction. It is not me who is allocating the money; so, don't blame it on me. I just receive and then allocate.
All committees will be able to spend their allocated money, hon Speaker. As you have raised, only 69% was spent. The issue here arises on programming itself. I have already engaged the Office of the Chief Whip. We hope that we shall work together - the Chief Whip in the NA, the Chief Whip in the NCOP and the Chief Whips in the provinces - for co-ordination so that when oversight happens, we don't stampede; as the Deputy President of the Republic always says, there is too much stampeding on oversight. We seem to be oversubscribing and going to the same project or the same province so many times because there is no co-ordination. We shall have to work on that co-ordination so that as we increase our oversight, indeed we are able to address the stampeding that has been occurring. Programming must allow for more space for such visits to occur so that we don't prevent committees from exercising that function. That is why there is underspending because each time they apply, we say they can't go. Hence they were unable to spend their money.
Also, Speaker, the support that we give to the committees and to Parliament as a whole must be a professional service if we are ambitious about achieving on all these programmes. It must be the type of support that has quality. The current support requires overhauling and adaptation to be more efficient and effective, service-delivery oriented, professional and competent. My office has already raised the matter with the Secretary to Parliament in terms of what needs to happen. We hope that in August when we come back, we will be able to receive a report. I have proposed that there needs to be a skills audit, whether we have employed the right people for the right jobs, with the required skills that are needed, or something somewhere is not working. [Applause.]
Every week I receive two to three complaints from chairpersons and parties in Parliament complaining about services, lack of minutes, quality reports not being there and so forth. So we really need a turnaround strategy if we are to achieve on quality oversight going forward.
We also need to enhance the capacity of members, as we have already alluded to. I also want to say that the oversight model is pointing to the very issue of building capacities for MPs. One of my responsibilities assigned is the introduction and maximisation of e-Parliament towards an e-democracy programme. We have already sent information and forms to all parties to check among their own members whether all of us are computer literate or not. Based on the information when they were registering, 85% of members are not computer literate. We cannot have MPs who cannot access the internet, who cannot even engage on social networks - Facebook and Twitter - and other programmes that are available for us. You could then engage your constituency offices there, create a vibrant debate with society there as hon members … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): All of you ought to be really orientated. Therefore, in July when we come back, we have a training session that will be operational for all of you to be compliant by the end of this year. Programmes that will be included will be a beginner's course for those who have never, ever opened a computer – although you have laptops and computers in your offices! I know some of you still have them in boxes! Therefore, please ensure that you go for that beginner's course. Those who are average, please go for an advanced course so that you can then be competent in other uses, and those who are advanced, there will be a group for those who want to specialise in certain areas of the computer. So, there will be these three groups. The classes will be group classes or one-on-one sessions if you are shy to go to a group session. [Laughter.] So they will be coming to your office at chosen hours and times. So at the end all of us will be computer literate as hon members. [Applause.]
Technology can no longer be avoided. I know that most of us are what we call "BBTs" – born before technology. But the technology is now in your home. Very soon the Minister of Communications will be introducing digital television. There will be a lot of programmes and government information on that particular television that will be in your house. So, you will be compelled to know how to use that technology. Your cellular phones, that Parliament has bought for all of you, have smart cards. They are smart phones. Some of you only use them to receive calls and to phone, yet there are so many uses in the phone. You can receive internet and so forth.
Please, let us ensure that we are part of the 5 million … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, please!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): … South Africans who are active on the internet out of a population of 50 million. It is still a low number, but MPs ought to be there. Our population consists of 70% young people, and how you engage them is only through the internet, because most of them are active there.
Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to end by thanking the staff in my office, and also in the Speaker's Office, as well as the staff from the Office of the Secretary to Parliament. They have been so helpful in terms of giving support. When I criticised your lack of performance in certain areas, I didn't mean that all of you are bad. There are those who are very competent and who go the extra mile in delivering the goods, and I have worked with you in quite a number of areas. I just want to say thank you very much and then support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mr S SHILOWA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana)
Mr M S SHILOWA: Chairperson, we are all agreed that Parliament and, by extension, the National Assembly, has to serve as the grand inquisition of the nation. It is not enough, though, to proclaim this a people's Parliament as we often do. It is more important to look at how we ensure that this, indeed, is not only perceived as such by the people of our country, but that it comes across as such in the work that it does. How do we ensure that topical issues of great moment serve before this Assembly to enhance its relevance to the nation? If we don't, very often people simply assume that we meet here merely to shout at one another rather than to engage in the current discourse.
Yet, it is in the media where political issues play out. It is the media that seems to direct where political focus should fall. There is nothing wrong with that being the case, provided we, as an Assembly, do not become irrelevant in the process. Often when Ministers spring into action to address a political problem, it is because it has caught the attention of the media. Therefore we must, at all times, ask ourselves whether this Assembly is indeed the grand inquisition of the nation, and where it is not, to state what steps we should take to ensure that we move forward. The ruling on the remarks by the hon George in this House leads us to finding the House wanting in this regard.
As the principle of responsible government prevails in South Africa, the executive, as it has been said by speakers before me, has to be fully accountable to us as parliamentarians. We all agree that even though the Constitution in various sections, including section 58(2), provides that we play the whole role of oversight, we have not been able to play that role more meaningfully, in part because of some of the responses that have been coming from the Ministers. We also need to accept that shielding the executive from accountability fools nobody. The way in which government fails the people comes out into the open one way or another. How much better it would be for the image of Parliament if the public perceived that Parliament was succeeding in holding government accountable.
Since the advent of this Parliament, it has been mooted in several quarters, including by yourself, hon Speaker, last year, that interpellations should be brought back. This would certainly be a move in the right direction. Unfortunately, I am told that former Speaker Ginwala was once fond of observing that trying to implement something in Parliament is like pushing an elephant. I hope that you, the Speaker, will be more like a skilled mahout and coax the elephant to move on its own. We want to see interpellations being introduced as mooted by you last year.
South Africans are more likely to trust our courts than Parliament because Parliament never gives clear judgement on issues and is sometimes perceived to be always hedging when there are big challenges to be faced. This we seek to change because we must not make the courts the arbiter on policy-formulation, but rather the arbiter in areas of implementation which we may be unsure of.
There is also the question of secondary legislation, otherwise known as regulation. In a constitutional democracy, it is imperative for all legislation, including secondary legislation, to conform fully with the Constitution. It is quite conceivable, in my view, that the plethora of regulations which government has been implementing is a hangover from the past. If they were to be brought before this House, we would find most of them wanting, and/or they would not be able to stand up to the scrutiny of our Constitution, let alone the Constitutional Court. This is a huge task, but one which cannot, in good conscience, be left on the sideline. It is something which I believe we must be able to focus on.
In addition to this, we need to be able to look at how we could ensure that we define a better role for Parliament in secondary legislation. While it may be very important that legislation in some areas provides for regulations to be in place, in some other areas, that regulation goes beyond merely regulating and becomes a second piece of legislation in itself. I think that needs to be addressed.
The same goes for legislation. I agree with the hon Bapela that it is no longer the main focus. Something that I think we must also try and work on, however, is the way in which legislation is introduced. Sometimes it is brought in in a rush, unrealistic timeframes are given, it is passed, and then it is brought back for amendments to be made in Parliament, even before that legislation has been put in place.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Can the speaker confirm with Parliament that he will account for all the allocations given to his party? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order! Hon member, was that a point of order! That was not a point of order.
Mr M S SHILOWA: I can confirm that Cope will account for all the resources that we have received from Parliament, in time and in good time. Thank you very much for the question. [Applause.]
I was saying that if we look at the time when Parliament began, the media always used to be around here in the gallery. However, I think that as debates in this House have begun to deteriorate, so too has media attention on the content and the issues that we are discussing. Reporting on Parliament is more about the conduct of Members of Parliament rather than about the content and the debates that take place in this House. I think this is something which all of us must work hard on to change.
If I may conclude … [Interjections.]
Xitsonga:
Tshika, Nkulukumba Chauke.
I would like to conclude by saying that we will support the budget. However, we hope that we will be able to work better together to ensure that we deal with the issues of oversight and accountability that have been raised, and ensure that we are able to have real debates rather than have debates of the deaf, where we come with speeches already prepared. Even if a certain point has been covered, because you have come in to score a point, you continue as if nothing has happened. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH
Mr M S SHILOWA
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, hon Speaker, hon Deputy President and colleagues, firstly, the IFP joins the other speakers in thanking all persons who have been involved in the leadership and management of Parliament over the past year, and we wish them well for the years ahead.
Hon Chairperson, I want to start by saying that we really welcome the fact that smaller parties are given at least three minutes to speak in the Votes that we are dealing with now; we hope that this becomes a practice in this House as well. This is because sometimes, as smaller parties, we get one minute to speak. Before you even warm up and say hello, good morning and how are you, your one minute has expired. I think in the interest of democracy and Parliament being a place where the people know what political parties have to say on whatever, we need more speaking time. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, members!
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, the Constitution and this Parliament of a free and democratic South Africa have been in existence now for the past 16 years. There have been 16 years of uncharted territory and an experiment in building a unified nation in which all persons are free and equal. A nation unified by its diversity and strengthened by its resolve to a better life and future for all South Africans. The IFP believes that now is the appropriate time for Parliament to reflect over the past 16 years - where did we succeed; where did we fail; what could we improve on; and what could we do differently?
To further reinforce an atmosphere of heightened engagement, which the hon Speaker referred to earlier on, we suggest that a parliamentary indaba be held, similar in structure to the Codesa talks whereby we can reflect on the above questions mention. And here we have to involve the public as well. It is very pleasing to note today a number of people in the gallery despite the bad weather. But I know in many occasions there is not a single person in the gallery. Yet, some hon members come here and say "Mr Speaker, colleagues and members in the gallery", and I would look around and not see anybody in the gallery. But I think we need to ensure that more and more people come to Parliament and listen to what is happening here in the debates.
A few days ago last week - in fact, a week from Tuesday - I was part of a debate which Idasa facilitated. One of the concerns of the civil society, organisations and NGOs was their inability to get their messages across to Parliament and to the executive. We were told at this debate that there were about 65 000 school children that matched to Parliament, handed over a memorandum and expected a response within seven days or so. They didn't get an acknowledgement even after seven days. This is a bad impression that is being created out there when NGOs and the civil society can say these things about us here in Parliament and the executive.
This Parliament must adopt the paradigm of forward-thinking if we are to successfully steer our country into the 21st century. Carefully planned actions instead of hastily, ill-planned reactions must be the order of the day.
Parliamentary oversight of state organs must continue to be strengthened. We support what the hon House Chairperson said because this is paramount in ensuring effective service delivery by the various organs of state.
I want to reflect very briefly on the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act and the establishment of the parliamentary budget office – I understand the hon Speaker did refer to this. But I think we have waited far too long as Members of Parliament for this office to be established, with professional personnel who could assist us as Members of Parliament in ensuring that the legislation doesn't become nice words written on glossy paper. I trust that the Office of the Speaker will ensure that we hasten the process of getting the parliamentary budget office in place to assist us.
The other issue is whether we have enough parliamentary legal advisers. When we attend to meetings in some of the committees, we find that legal advisers have to run from committee to committee, and I don't think this is desirable. We need more legal advisers that come to our committee meetings.
In the last few seconds I have left, I want to agree with the House Chairperson on his view of Scopa, Parliament and the relationship with the executive. I think it is unfortunate that some members of executive feel that Scopa is some kind of a super committee up there that deals with issues that it is not supposed to be dealing with.
However, this kind of thinking also permeates among some of our colleagues who belong to portfolio committees. They feel that Scopa is some kind of a super committee. Scopa is not there to interfere with the work of portfolio committees. It has a particular role and responsibility to ensure that we interrogate the financial statements of departments and reflect on the report of the Auditor-General. We question departments on that and that only. [Interjections.]
In conclusion, we as the IFP will support the Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]
Mr L W GREYLING
Mr N SINGH
Mr L W GREYLING: Chair, hon Speaker, in the previous year's parliamentary Budget Vote speech, I described the Chief Whips' Forum as a soap opera, because you could miss eight episodes and still be able to catch up with the storyline. I am happy to state that this forum has, however, become more efficient at dealing with issues and that, thankfully, the lead characters are no longer continuously replaced by new actors from the ruling party every few months.
This improvement has allowed us to build up a collegial spirit in the Chief Whips' Forum. As a team, we have been able to tackle some important issues affecting this Parliament. The most important issue facing us all though, is how we set about building up the credibility of Parliament and turning it into an institution that is relevant in the lives of our people.
Unfortunately, past scandals like Travelgate have seriously damaged Parliament's credibility. The ID maintains that we now have to be beyond reproach in all our affairs in order to repair this damage. The ID therefore finds it disconcerting that we have now been forced to resort to legal action to ensure that travel claims of members are subjected to transparent scrutiny.
We also need to ask some serious questions about who has oversight over Parliament. The Parliamentary Oversight Authority is not sufficiently transparent, nor is it inclusive enough to provide proper oversight.
The Chief Whips' Forum sometimes feels like international negotiations, where action is only taken on those issues that are in the interests of larger powers. Issues such as speaking time in Parliament, for instance, are allowed to drag on because the status quo benefits the larger parties. A parliamentary research report, however, found that we are the only Parliament that allocates speaking time on a proportional basis, and we are also the only Parliament that does not have speaking time principles enshrined in its Rules. We need to urgently address this matter in the interest of promoting a rigorous parliamentary debate that can advance multiparty democracy.
Finally, I have been appalled at the lack of leadership that has been shown by the larger parties in dealing with an issue of immense public interest, namely party funding reform. For three years, I have been trying in vain to get Parliament to set up and ad hoc committee to debate legislation on this issue. Parliament is the only institution that represents all national political parties. Surely we should be showing leadership in setting up a mechanism that can finally deal with this issue. Instead, the larger parties, on both sides of the House, keep kicking this issue to touch, with the effect that political party funding scandals continue to disgrace our democracy. The ID demands that Parliament finally takes action on this issue, and that political parties are held accountable to their rhetoric on this issue.
Lastly, the ID would like to encourage Parliament and the Speaker to make some space in this budget to hire a dedicated environmental officer who can ensure that Parliament is proactive about setting an example for the rest of the country on tackling what is a major challenge. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms E THABETHE
Mr L W GREYLING
Mrs E THABETHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, Speaker, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, and guests in the gallery, it has always been the view of the ANC that to fulfil people's aspirations and achieve human developmental needs, inclusivity in participation is very important. Throughout the 20th century, the ANC consciously fostered the unity of the broadest range of forces.
The democratic breakthrough in 1994 ushered in an age in which Parliament became an organ of the people's power and people's agenda. It is at this site of power that the aspirations of the masses in their diversity lay. The nonracial unity that we currently enjoy was forged in the crucible of the working class struggle.
I must say through the Chairperson to you, Speaker, that I think it would not be correct that we make it the custom for parties to have more time to speak. Parties must go out and get votes because we are here as people's refs. [Applause.] We are representing people in this Parliament. And, I believe, that the ANC got these votes, but we go out there ...
IsiZulu:
... elangeni sishe sibe mnyama, sihambe singene indlu nendlu, singene esontweni sithi: bantu votelani uKhongolose ngoba yilokhu azokwenza nani nikanye.
English:
Hon Lance Greyling, you cannot get more time.
IsiZulu:
Bab'uSingh.
English:
You cannot get more time and have this made the custom. Go out and get them so that you can be a representative of those people. [Applause.]
I think we have to consider that, and, I'm sure, take the time so that you have the courage to go out and get votes – so that then you can speak in terms of the minutes, that they are proportional. We are a unique Parliament. That is correct. Our Constitution is also unique. So, in that space I don't think it is a mistake. It will never be a mistake because it finds its roots in the Freedom Charter and the ANC - we are representatives when we give it. I mean, you must be happy for the ANC to give you time to speak.
But you must not then play with that time and try to score cheap political points, Lance Greyling. And we must be able then to make sure that as Parliament, we are representing those communities. I must ask, Speaker: could we get more allocations in terms of constituencies, because we have to go out and service these constituencies as the people's reps here in Parliament. [Applause.] When it comes to constituencies, we don't get a big enough budget to deal with that. So I hope, through yourself, the Deputy Speaker and the Secretary to Parliament, we can enjoy a better allocation in terms of constituencies because it is those people that we have to go back to and service and be able to tell what it is we are talking about.
I must say as well, in dealing with this issue, the democratic breakthrough that we are all the beneficiaries of today is embraced in terms of the democracy that the ANC-led government is pushing. In that regard, the aspirations of South Africans in their diversity, as contained in the Constitution, find their roots in the Freedom Charter. The Freedom Charter contains the vision that steers the ANC-led government's effort towards the creation of a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.
The Constitution also stresses the principles of accountability, transparency and openness. We never saw these before 1994, I'm sorry to say. Before, things were swept under the carpet. You would hardly hear anything about what was happening from the government's side, but because of the ANC's policies and principles and a vision that we must make sure that we are transparent, people can also raise their views. We are much better off now.
In the same vein, I must say that public participation in parliamentary affairs is impacted upon by broader social and economic realities. I must say, Speaker, large sections of our communities - the Chief Whip referred to them in the rural areas - in peri-urban areas, townships and elsewhere – form the majority of people that come from the underdeveloped areas. The minority is well off and owns the means of livelihood to be able to fly down to Cape Town and come to the hearings and make sure that their views can be heard. They influence and shape what policy looks like. [Applause.]
We must make sure that we put in more effort to ensure that those people that we represent can also have a chance; or we must look at a system that will allow us to go about things better, as we did with the police and the justice committees that were dealing with the Scorpions at the time. They went out to different provinces, met with the people. This is what a people's Parliament should look like and do. They were able to go out and get the people's views out there. It was much the same thing as the way in which we dealt with the Constitutional Assembly. We went out to communities, to rural places all over, and then we were able to come back and say, "Here is the product" after getting involved with those people.
Otherwise, our democracy will not be felt because those people will never get a chance to participate in this Parliament. Most of them cannot afford a flight and cannot afford accommodation at a five-star hotel or four-star hotel. So, surely we as the ANC endorse a people's-centred approach in that it acknowledges the critical role of citizens because people are not passive beneficiaries or charity seekers of the government. As a developmental state, this is what we think a people's Parliament will have to do. And we must make sure that we can then deal with these challenges.
I think all of us agree here that we need more resources in terms of issues raised by other parties here. I must say to my colleague the hon Shilowa, I understand that regulations are part of an element that ensures that legislation can be implemented. You can say that there is a plethora of regulations.
At the time you were premier, you were doing the same thing with your MECs. So, I find it very strange that today you are in the opposition, and saying that these are not the right things. This is a mechanism that allows the legislation to be better processed and to be more accessible to many people. [Applause.] So, I'm sure with regard to that you would agree with me that there is a lot that this ANC-led government has done to make sure that we can amplify all of this. But the regulations play a key part in terms of legislative implementation. So, in that respect, I believe that we have to work together.
Parliament is a site of battle of ideas and contestation of opposing forces. It must deliver on its responsibilities towards the process of fundamental social and economic transformation. This will bring to fruition the aspirations of the masses.
With the impact of apartheid still visible socioeconomically in our communities, Parliament should be the mouthpiece of the weak and the vulnerable, especially women, the elderly and children. I must say that I am proud to be a member of the ANC, because we are the only party without legislation in place but which has more than 30% women representing other women and other forces here. [Applause.] And the youth ... [Interjections.] No, no, no.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members!
Mrs E THABETHE: You can howl, but howl at the relevant points and facts. It is only the ANC at this point in time that ... [Interjections.]
Mrs E THABETHE: My time has not expired.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Continue, hon member. Order, hon members!
Mrs E THABETHE: So, we are the only party that has many women here, credible women – not token women – who represent the people, where they come from. [Applause.] And we have a spectrum of youth that are able to give vigilance and all it takes here in this Parliament. In that regard, I think, for us we are the best ruling party ever - governing party ever - that we are able to bring these about and make sure that we can then deal with them.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, I rise on a point of order. Is it appropriate - is it parliamentary - for the hon member to refer to some members as token women members? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, I didn't hear that, but I will check the Hansard. But I didn't hear that the members are token members. You may continue, hon member. Hon Elizabeth, continue please. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, it is appropriate on occasions like this to ask the hon member whether she did in fact say that. If she says she did, then she must be asked to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Mike Ellis, I said I would check the Hansard, and then I will rule accordingly. So, don't teach me what to do. I have already taken that decision. [Applause.]
Adv T M MASUTHA: Hon Chair, in fact we can confirm that the member did not say that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Mike Masutha, you are out of order. Hon Elizabeth, could you continue?
Mrs E THABETHE: Thank you, Chairperson. Parliament should be at the forefront of societal education so as to build a conscious society that understands that the Constitution is supreme. The society we are building today arises from the ashes of a deeply divided past, characterised by strife, conflict, untold human suffering and injustice, in which participation in political, economic and social life was based on race. In order to fulfil the aspirations and ideals of all South Africans, Parliament must be at the forefront of rallying all to a common national agenda, which is a job for everyone who is elected here because we have a responsibility from the people who elected us to represent them here in Parliament.
The democratic Parliament derives its character from fulfilling these tasks – the ideals and aspirations of the masses. The tasks that Parliament is facing and continues to be confronted with are similar to those that the country has to resolve. We believe that through the ANC-led government, with everything that we inherited in 1994, we are able to make sure that the people really can govern, and that the people are part and parcel of our parliamentary process. I hope that we will be able to increase that and, as we move forward, that we are able then to make sure that we don't forget the role of our people, their participation, from time to time. I must thank the people for being part of this and for making sure that we are all of one mind.
Sesotho:
Kaofela ha rona ha re le mona, re na le boikarabelo. Re ka ba le ho se dumellane le dintho tseo re di etsang, empa qetellong batho ba re kgethileng ho tla mona, ba batla tswelopele, ba batla hore tlala e fele. Ha ho na hore o wa Mokgatlo ofeng, kaofela re tshwanetse ho sebedisana mmoho le mmuso wa ANC, hobane o na le tjhebelopele e tjhatsi. O na le tjhebelopele e shebang hore na batho ba ka ithusa jwang ha mmuso le ona o ba thusa. Ke tshepa hore Palamente ena ha e tswelapele e lokela ho bona mathata a jwalo.
Motsamaisi wa Dipuisano, haholo ke kopa hore re leke ho kenyelletsa batho mekgatlong ena le ho ba mema hore batle mona, empa re leke ho fetola tsela eo re sebetsang ka yona hore re ye bathong. Re se ke ra dulela ho bua Sekgowa se seholo sa Harvard University sa Massachutess, ha se sona se tla lokisa hore batho ba rona ebe karolo ya puso. Ha re yeng ho bona re bue le bona batla utlwisisa, ba kgone ho tswela pele mmoho le rona. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.]
Mr N M Kganyago
Ms E THABETHE
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, Mr Speaker and Members of Parliament, this present Parliament is one year old. In this year, we have seen the introduction of a whole new crop of members, as well as several new government departments. The new executive has made some attempt towards a more consultative relationship with all the parties in Parliament. This has also been felt in this House where our concerns regarding speaking times have been addressed somewhat. We are grateful for the improvement, however marginal. I was personally very excited when I looked at the screen and saw that I was given 12 minutes, but after a few minutes it was changed to three minutes. [Laughter.]
However, it is our belief that this budget and the policy that it underpins still fail to address many of the underlying concerns about this institution.
The proportional formula that is applied to speaking times, funding and other aspects of the functioning of Parliament do not foster an environment where all voices get a reasonable opportunity to be heard. The functioning of Parliament should be measured against its success at allowing all voices to be heard. This can only be achieved in two ways: firstly, by giving all political parties the time, resources and opportunities to represent the views of their voters; and secondly, by ensuring genuine public participation in the formulation of policy and law.
Our country faces huge challenges, not least of which being the worst inequality on the planet. It is our constitutional and moral duty to ensure that we explore all avenues and listen to as many voices as possible in our pursuit of solutions.
In the early 1990s, we proved to the world our unique ability to find solutions when we enter into a genuine dialogue amongst ourselves. This Parliament should seek to emulate that spirit of nation-building. The UDM supports this budget, and we hope that the time will be increased in the future. I thank you.
Dr C P MULDER
Mr N M KGANYAGO
Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, hon Speaker, when any politician or Member of Parliament gets onto this podium and starts off by saying "we are the only party that does this and we are the only party that does that", then alarms should go off, and we should realise that.
At the time of this debate, 20% of the duration of the fourth Parliament has already expired. I know that the hon Chief Whip of the ANC - the ruling party - feels very strongly that this is the fourth Parliament, and things will be done differently, and that it will not be business as usual. However, it is all about perceptions. The public and even some sections of the media draw no distinction between the first, second, third or fourth Parliament. To them Parliament is Parliament. They associate Parliament with politicians and their general perception of politicians is unfortunately rather negative. There is a massive challenge to all of us to rehabilitate the image of politicians, as well as that of Parliament.
The hon Chief Whip of the ANC said today, and I quote:
We must ensure that Parliament is respected by our respective constituencies, be that on the side of government or the opposition.
I agree with that; it is absolutely correct. However, if a point of order, which is not actually a point of order, is put on the agenda – the one which was raised by the hon Chauke just now - then it tends to give people the perception that we are not to be taken seriously. Mr Chauke knew very well that it was not a point of order he was raising, but that he was trying to score a cheap political point.
How do we get the respect of the people out there? This won't happen automatically. So, how do we do it? The fourth Parliament must be relevant. Are we relevant and topical? I don't think so. All emphasis is on oversight at the moment, and I understand that. But the Constitution clearly says that the NA is elected to represent the people and the NCOP is selected to represent provinces. Section 42(3) of the Constitution stipulates that we should represent the people by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues. I think it is in this terrain that we miserably fail.
Afrikaans:
Die Parlement word nie gebruik as 'n platformwaar die belangrike sake van die dag, wat in die harte van die mense daarbuite is, gedebateer, in diepte bespreek, tot 'n punt gevoer, oor gestoei en antwoorde voor gesoek word nie. Ons mis daardie geleenthede.
Die Parlement moet verstaan dat ons, in terme van die Grondwet, op dieselfde vlak as die regsprekende gesag en die uitvoerende gesag is. Ons is nie ondergeskik aan die uitvoerende gesag nie. Ons is ook nie ondergeskik aan die regsprekende gesag nie. Onder die Grondwet is daardie drie bene van die staatsgesag, gelyk en ons moet ons rol volledig daarin speel. Ons moet dit elke dag doen. Die Parlement moet nie probeer om, in terme van politieke standpunte, wat van partye deurgegee word, noodwnedig oor die regerende party, …[Tyd verstreke.] Die VF Plus sal die Begrotingspos ondersteun.
Ms C DUDLEY
Dr C P MULDER
Ms C DUDLEY: Chair, hon Speaker, as you know, global financial pressures have added to domestic financial demands in every area, and Members of Parliament are acutely aware of the need to ensure that every cent spent must deliver. The objectives of Parliament have to be measured against demands for spending in other areas.
While the overall appropriation to Parliament shows an increase of R71,2 million, it is in fact a decrease of 0,26% in real terms. This decrease will necessitate stringent measures in some areas, but should not impact too negatively on Parliament's ability to strengthen its oversight function as an additional R448,4 million has been allocated over the medium-term to accommodate additional capacity for the oversight function of committees, including researchers, content and language specialists. This is important because effective oversight will impact directly on service delivery. Improved service delivery must receive our focused attention.
Last year the ACDP was concerned that financial support to political parties represented in Parliament and constituency offices around the country showed a significant decrease. Given that constituency offices constitute the closest level of interaction between members and the public and provide the best platform from which members can get to grips with issues confronting their constituents, this was a blow for the people's Parliament. Members of Parliament are hugely constrained when parties receive budgets totally inadequate to pay market related salaries for researchers and other support staff. It is counterproductive, and it is not in the public's best interests. This year the Programme has seen an increase, in real terms, of 2,13%, which is encouraging. This will help ensure that the necessary tools and support services are provided to assist members in their constituency duties.
The tension between time spent on work done at Parliament and time allocated to members to work in constituencies, too often results in constituency time being sacrificed. Parliament must not be allowed to hijack members who should be in their constituencies more.
The ACDP notes with approval that the 2010 estimates of national expenditure indicate that Parliament intends to review its policies, particularly those dealing with communication, entertainment and travel to ensure efficiency in spending. Slight improvements have been noted regarding speaking time for smaller parties, but the ACDP would like to see Parliament take a closer look at comparative situations and the philosophy of speaking time allocation in general.
One good thing, at least from my point of view, is that the ANC has not been quite so boring of late as they attempt to fill up their exorbitant amount of speaking time, and the small concessions for opposition parties have produced more useful Budget debates.
The ACDP would like to thank the Speaker, all office bearers and staff of Parliament for their commitment and hard work. We will support this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms S V KALYAN
Ms C DUDLEY
Ms S V KALYAN: Chairperson, Core Objective 3 of Parliament's policy imperatives is to facilitate public participation and involvement, hence the term "people's Parliament". Our Parliament's idea of public participation is to recreate Parliament in some province at huge cost and use it as a platform to gain political mileage for the governing party. I'm glad that sanity has finally prevailed and that this practice has been abandoned in so far as the National Assembly is concerned.
Real public participation does not happen here in our Parliament, and I will give you two examples to illustrate my point. When it comes to international agreements, the executive binds all of South Africa without our knowledge. Parliament is not involved at any stage, and there is no strategy to monitor and exercise oversight over the implementation of international agreements, nor its impact on citizens. Portfolio committees are merely expected to rubber-stamp the executive's undertaking. The oversight and accountability model is supposed to address this, but we are well into a full year of the fourth Parliament, and this has yet to happen.
A second example is that South Africa has an ambassador to the United Nations. Yet, has this Parliament ever discussed any of the decisions the ambassador makes on behalf of South Africa, or have public hearings ever been held?
Parliamentary Democracy Offices, PDOs, are supposedly meant to be organs of Parliament to expand Parliament's access and to be in touch with people on the ground. The Chief Whips Forum requested a briefing from the Secretary's office on this issue. The officials failed to come the first time, citing that a workshop was more important and, on the second request, that they first had to consult with the presiding officers before coming to address the Chief Whips Forum. The DA seriously questions whether PDOs are necessary in the first place, whether it is carrying out its mandate and whether its existence justifies the expense.
A review of Chapter 9 and associated institutions was completed by an ad hoc committee chaired by former MP Kader Asmal. Huge resources were spent on it, and it dealt with primarily participatory issues. Why has this report not been dealt with in Parliament? Given the current dysfunctional nature of the, CGE, Commission for Gender Equality, and the Youth Commission, we should be looking seriously at the recommendations in the report, instead of using it as a doorstop.
South Africa played a leading role in the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament and in fact, one of our own MPs, hon Madasa, has recently been appointed as the Clerk of the Pan-African Parliament. However, as a Member of Parliament, I wish to register my frustration and disappointment of the Pan-African Parliament representing South Africa at the lack of research and other resources accorded to the South Africa delegation. Given that the Pan-African Parliament is going through a transformation process, the burden on the delegation has increased, but, regrettably, there are no resources. Speaker, I hope you will address this matter as a matter of urgency.
Parliament's strategic plan was tabled late, which in itself is quite unfortunate. It is my considered opinion that the strategic plan underpins the budget. Therefore, how do we as a Parliament monitor the budget if it does not go before any committee?
In conclusion, hon Thabethe, it is unfortunate that you refer to all the women parliamentarians in this House as tokens. I can assure you that all the women parliamentarians in the DA are here on merit. Your choice of terminology is offensive. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana)
Ms S V KALYAN
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Mr M B Skosana): Chairperson, hon Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, the House Chairperson: Internal Arrangements was appointed in accordance with the National Assembly Rule 14, amended on 26 May 2009. This Rule provides that the Speaker would allocate functions and responsibilities to the House Chairperson and announce this in the ATC. These functions and responsibilities are as follows: ensuring the wellbeing and interests of members; overseeing and ensuring alignment of structures dealing with members' interests and facilities; receiving and providing reports on issues of members' interests; ensuring the enhancement of capacity of members; ensuring the development of policy in respect of former members; developing and proposing policy on benefits and facilities for former members; and participating in liaison with the various parliamentary committees, e.g. the National Assembly Programming Committee, Chief Whips Forum, National Assembly Forum, Joint Rules, National Assembly Rules and the Joint Parliamentary Budget Forum.
As the House Chairperson on internal arrangements, I chair the Quarterly Consultative Forum which provides the vehicle for processing what I have just mentioned. The Quarterly Consultative Forum is a parliamentary forum where political parties in Parliament must represent the interests of their members without failure. However, we are experiencing some challenges regarding effective representation.
During the conference of the Speakers Forum in March this year, Shameela Seedat from Idasa referred to Parliament as "a theatre of dreams". We know that Lebo Mashile, in her poem, brought the matter uncomfortably closer to us when she said, "you and I; We are the keepers of dreams". However, the vexed questions for us members remain: What are these dreams? To whom does the dream belong? Who should fulfil this dream, and how?
To begin answering these questions in a reasonable manner, we need to revisit the idea and the meaning of the covenant; the solemn agreement that has conferred on all of us the honour of being called elected representatives and the voice of the people. I believe we will do justice to this social contract only if we express unwavering confidence in the sovereignty of Parliament, the state or the Republic, which is the embodiment of the collective will of the people.
I am often concerned when Members of Parliament do not make full use of some of the parliamentary structures at their disposal, intended to equip and empower them to excel in their service of the people. For instance, the Quarterly Consultative Forum – which now meets monthly – focuses on internal arrangements to cater for the interests and development of all Members of Parliament. We believe that a healthy, mentally alert, well-trained, sufficiently skilled and well-resourced Member of Parliament becomes an effective living tool to realize the mission and vision of Parliament. He or she is the agent of genuine transformation for the advancement of good for all the governed, in particular the majority of South Africans who are poor, homeless, unemployed, living with ill health, marginalised and underdeveloped.
The Speaker referred to this institution as "a strong, powerful institution of democracy".
In ensuring the success of our forum, we have cultivated a good relationship with service providers. These service providers are internal and external. Internal service providers include Members of Parliament and parliamentary services, and external service providers include the Department of Public Works and the VIP Protection Services of the Police.
Under internal service providers we have a support of units with different responsibilities. Various projects are in progress in consultation with various functional departments. The internal service providers play a pivotal role in ensuring that Parliament operates smoothly and that Members of Parliament are empowered and skilled and that their interests are generally enhanced.
Under the Institutional Support Services unit we have managed to set up a team to work on the improvement of the catering services. I think there was also a concern that the House's microphones are not adequate. The original request for microphones was processed, and a feasibility study was done. It was agreed that 120 microphones be installed. Sound and Vision has submitted a proposal to the Secretary to Parliament for funding. For assistance around this and other support, including parking in Parliament and maintenance, I am going to ask members to contact Mr Lionel Klassen, the manager of Institutional Division, at 0214033100.
Members' Facilities section provides a service to all members and administers and monitors all claims submitted and paid to members. The section is further responsible for the administration and support of the travel system through which members procure their travel. There was an increase in the budget of Members' Facilities. The increase was, in part, due to changes in the policy approved at the end of the third Parliament. These changes included additional travel allocations, provision for improved facilities for members over 70 years of age and members with special needs. The budget also includes compensation for members, facilities for members, as well as transfer payments to political parties. The facilities further include travel and related costs, telephone expenditure, relocation, training and facilities for former members and Ministers.
Facilities are provided to members in terms of the policy. In consultation with Members, the section continually reviews policy provisions and the services provided, to ensure that the changing needs of members are met. For further information in this regard, I am going to refer members to Ms Linda Harper, who is the manager of Members' Facilities, on 0214033421
Parliament has embraced ICT, information and communications technology, solutions as tools of trade to enable Members of Parliament to fulfil their duties efficiently and effectively. During the third Parliament, ICT equipment given to members was either underutilised or not used at all due to specific circumstances of individual members. A wider choice that is specifically targeted at the requirements of each member would greatly reduce this underutilisation.
As part of the fourth Parliament project, a subproject was created to identify, procure and implement ICT equipment for the fourth democratic Parliament in line with members' needs and requirements. To optimise entitlements and utilisation, members were provided with the following: One, a laptop of choice with a docking station and a mobile printer for use both on and off site. On site, the member can use a docking station and its accessories. Off site, the member can undock the laptop and use it anywhere in the world. The major benefit is to simplify information management as there is only one source of information both on and off site. This package includes a mobile printer.
Two, a multifunction desktop printer was also provided for on-site printing.
Three, a mobile device of choice, selected from the following collection of mobile devices: an HTC S740, a Nokia 371, a Samsung Omnia 1900 and a Sony Ericsson Xperia 1, was provided for members.
Eat you heart out, hon Bapela. I can talk about these things!
For further assistance, I am going to refer members to Mr Malose Dolo, who is the manager of the project. His number is 0214038042.
The section of Members' Training is responsible for providing support and administration of training programmes for members. This falls directly within the parliamentary responsibilities of the Deputy Speaker.
The Advisory Training Committee, made up of Members of Parliament and which is responsible for advising the Presiding Officers on training matters, has been established. It is currently reviewing programmes which were offered in the previous parliamentary term with a view to recommend relevant and new programmes.
In the interim, the following programmes are being implemented: a Certificate in Public Finance, offered by Unisa; and a B.Comm Honours degree, offered by the University of the Western Cape. A new programme sponsored by the Speakers Forum and facilitated by the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon House Chairperson, your time has expired.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): How much time was I allocated, Madam Chair? [Interjections.] Was it really 12 minutes?
Ms N P KHUNOU
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana)
Setswana:
Mme N P KHUNOU: Modulasetilo, Maloko a a tlotlegang a Palamente, le baeti ba rona ba ba tlotlegang...
English:
... the maxim, "working together we can do more", applies also to the relationship between the legislature and the executive. The relationship between the legislature and the executive should be a complementary and mutually reinforcing working relationship that contributes in a dynamic way to the realisation of the needs and aspirations of all South Africans - in short, an activist Parliament in a developmental state.
Every Constitution arises from and should be understood in a particular historical context. When you transpose constitutional discourses from one context to another, we must do so with care. Much can get lost in the translation. Carelessly transplanting a healthy and beneficial plant from one soil type to another can result either in the death of the plant or its metamorphosis into an invasive weed that displaces and kills indigenous plants. In the same way, doctrines such as that of the separation of powers must be dug up with caution out of the soil of the struggles against absolute monarchy, and must be carefully planted in the soil of a constitutional garden nourished by the struggle against colonialism and apartheid in which millions are awaiting to harvest the fruits of unity, nonracialism, nonsexism, democracy and prosperity.
Our Constitution is regarded as one of the best in the world, not only because it entrenches the Bill of Rights and enjoins the state and legal subjects to respect and fulfil such rights, but it is also based on the values of equality, human dignity and freedom.
Parliament has a duty to ensure through legislation that the spirit, objectives and purport of the Constitution are promoted. It is through Parliament's legislative power and oversight that the divisions of the past can be healed and a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights can be established.
Parliamentary vigilance is the pillar on which the fight against unemployment should be anchored. It is indeed our duty to ensure, as the ANC election manifesto indicates, that workers rights are human rights. In this regard, we should tighten legislation to close all loopholes that allow for the persistence of the infringement of socioeconomic and group rights. The vulnerable people of our society depend on their elected representatives for protection. In this regard we should ensure that we stem the tide of continued labour exploitation and casualisation and that the plight of farm workers and farm dwellers receives immediate attention. We need to act against the continued whimsical and wanton evictions of farm workers and farm dwellers.
As we continue to strike a balance between diversity and tolerance, freedom and order and the will of the majority and the interests of the minority, let us be steadfast and immovable in building a national democratic societyin which equality is respected and fulfilled by its entire people.
South Africa's role in creating a better Africa and a better world hinges basically on the strategic approach to achieve an international order with greater security, peace, dialogue and greater equilibrium between the poor and the rich countries. The ANC's quest for peace also derives from the internationalist tradition, with its origins in the Freedom Charter, unequivocally stating that:
South Africa shall strive to maintain world peace and the settlement of all international disputes by negotiations - not war.
This provides a perspective from which the ANC should intervene on all matters of foreign affairs and international relations. Hence, the pursuit of the country's international agenda as a contribution to South Africa's own growth and development. These include consolidating the African Agenda, strengthening the deepening relations with countries of the South, transforming relations with the countries of the North, pursuing the economic diplomacy and participating in the global system of governance.
This led, inter alia, to the recommendation that the Department of Foreign Affairs be renamed by our President as the Department of International Relations and Co-operation. It is, therefore, clear that South Africa's strategy is firmly anchored in the African Agenda, which serves as a pillar upon which South Africa's engagement with the international community rests, and that there is co-operation with the developing countries of the South in order to tilt the balance in favour of our developmental agenda.
The India-Brazil-South Africa partnership, a forum of like-minded states, is a substantial progress in the South-South Co-operation, balancing politics of solidarity and economic activities, including the support of Nepad projects. It has developed common positions on global issues and built an issue-based trilateral co-operation. These advances demonstrate that effect is given to the ANC's commitment to improve co-operation among countries of the South in terms of economic relations, sociopolitical programmes and efforts to ensure peace and equitable global relations.
Setswana:
Ga re a itlisa fa, re tlile ka mokgatlho wa rona.
English:
Coupled with emphasis on economic diplomacy, was a resolve to improve the international marketing of South Africa and Africa, which led to the creation of a number of bodies, which directly and indirectly contribute to a better understanding of the predominately positive character of South Africa's economic development.
In its manifesto for the 2009 elections, the ANC says:
We are going to spare no energy in our efforts to find urgent democratic and lasting solutions to the situations in Zimbabwe, Swaziland, Sudan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Western Sahara, Somalia and other countries. We are going to continue to support the global campaign to achieve the millennium development goals, MDG, by 2015; we are going to conduct awareness campaigns among our people to prevent incidents of xenophobia; and we are going to work for the integration into our communities of all who are residents in our country, acknowledging the contribution that foreign nationals make to our country.
The, PGIR, Parliamentary Group on International Relations, as a substructure of the Joint Rules Committee, is the vehicle through which strategic and policy impetus to Parliament's international participation can be provided. It is also this body that will access and make recommendations on how matters raised in international forums that Parliament is affiliated to and participate in are discussed and relayed to the citizens of South Africa.
Focus groups will also be set. These focus groups will encompass the following affiliated multilateral bodies, the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum, the Pan-African Parliament, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the African, Caribbean, Pacific-European Union and the Association for the Educational and Cultural Advancement of African people. The size of these groups will be influenced by the multilateral body they represent and whether the delegates are appointed by the House for the duration of the parliamentary term or on an ad hoc basis for each activity of the multilateral body. Each focus group will meet at least four times a year in accordance with the programme of the work of its multilateral body.
In conclusion, our Parliament in this regard aims not only to entrench democracy within the country but also to act democratically and encourage democratic practices throughout the continent and the world at large in the quest to build a better Africa in a better world.
Setswana:
Ke batla gore go leloko la DA mo Kapa le seke la nna naledi e e phatsimang kwa ntle fela mme le simolole fa gae. Fa o ya kwa Khayelitsha kgotsa kwa metsesetoropong e batho bantsho ba nnang kwa go yona mo Kapa Bophirima o fitlhela gore dikereke tsotlhe tsa batho bantsho di ne tsa senngwa ka ntlha ya gore go twe ga di a agiwa mo lefelong le di tshanetseng go agiwa mo go lona. Fela fa o lebelela fa di sentsweng teng, go agilwe dithabene.
Motho o ipotsa gore a naa la re batho bantsho ba tshwanetse gore ba nne ba nwa nnotagi. O fitlhela go na le mafelo a dikoloi tse di senyegileng. Ga go sepe se se siameng se se tla thusang setšhaba sa rona. Fa re le kwa ntle re ganetsana jalo le jalo a re direng bonnete ba gore mo re nnang teng re fetola botshelo ba batho rona. Batho ba ya kwa dikerekeng go bona tshegetso ya maitsholo. Fa o senya dikereke o itse gore ga o senye matshelo a batho fela mme mo godimo ga moo o a ba nyenyafatsa wa re batho bao ga ba na tlhaloganyo.
English:
Churches are the only hope for our people. That is where we get our morals from. So, if you go and demolish churches you are saying to the people out there that you don't consider them. This is because you have never experienced this poverty but read about it over the newspapers. That is why it is easy for you to demolish churches and leave the scrap yards and taverns because you are belittling us into a drunken society. We are saying that we are going to fight you by whatever means possible and make sure that we change the lives of our people, and we are going to be equal. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L M MPHAHLELE
Ms N P KHUNOU
Sepedi:
Mna L M MPHAHLELE: Mohlomphegi Modulasetulo, maloko le baeng ka moka, ke bula polelo ya ka ka gore PAC e thekga kabo ya ditšhelete tša Palamente. Empa go na le dintlha tše bohlokwa tše ke nyakago go di hlagiša. Re kwa gore Palamente ye e swanetše gore e ame setšhaba dilong ka moka tšeo e di dirago. Empa re nyamišwa ke tšhelete ye nnyane yeo e dirago R85 milione yeo ka yona re tlago ama setšhaba dipolelong tša rena. Re ka ama setšhaba bjang dipolelong tša rena re na le mapheko a mantši ao setšhaba sa gaborena se swanetšego go a tshela pele lentšu la sona le kwagala?
Lepheko la mathomo ke leleme. Dilo tše ntši tšeo di yago setšhabeng di ngwadilwe ka leleme leo setšhaba se sa le kwešišego. Le ge re re re bitša pitšo goba re re setšhaba se kgeregele lefelong le itšego gore se tle se kwe sebiletšwa, o hwetša re bapatša tsebišo yeo ka leleme leo setšhaba se sa le kwego. Bjale, re le ba PAC re re ge eba re nyaka go ama setšhaba ka ditaba tša setšhaba, a re boleleng ka maleme ao setšhaba se a kwago le go a kwešiša.
Ntlha ya bobedi ke ya go tiiša kopano le temokrasi.
IsiXhosa:
Xhamela, ndiyavuma ukuba masiqinise umanyano nolawulo lwentando yesininzi. Kodwa ekuqiniseni umanyano nolawulo lwentando yesininzi, sikhumbule ukuba umzabalazo awuqalwanga yiANC, ungaqalwanga yiPAC, umzabalazo kudala ukhona. Masingalibali ukuba, phambi kokuba siphathe izikhali,kukho amaqhawe awayekhona phambi kwethu, amadoda afana nooDomani, awathi aqala umzabalazo wezikhali, kodwa namhlanje asazi ukuba oongobani. Ndifuna ukuthi abaThwa namaKhoi nabo babesilwa belwela eli lizwe singawabalibali xa sikhumbula amaqhawe ethu.
Sepedi:
Ke rata go boela tabeng ya temokrasi. Ye ga ke tsebe gore na ke temokrasi goba ke "tolakrasi". Ke bolela se ka lebaka la gore gantši mokgatlo o swanetše gore o be le tšhelete gore o kgone go ikwalakwatša setšhabeng. Tsela yeo ditšhelete di abjago ka yona Palamenteng ga e tiiše temokrasi. Bahumi ba a humišwa gomme mekgatlo yeo e lego gore e a diila e tšwela pele le bodiidi.
Ntlha ya boraro ke ya gore re hlabolle Maloko a Palamente ka dithuto … [Tšhwahlelo.] [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga. [Legoswi.]
Mr N T GODI
Mr L M MPHAHLELE
Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, Mr Speaker, comrades and hon members, may I state from the start the APC's support for the budget. Parliament's key responsibility is to make laws and oversee executive action. At the beginning, which was in 1994, there was a necessary focus on lawmaking to transform our country into a nonracial and nonsexist democracy.
Progressively, the shift, especially in this fourth Parliament, has been to focus on the very important aspect of oversight. Clearly the space and energy is there to hold the executive accountable, but there is still room for improvement, especially in terms of focus, depth and impact. Parliament has a responsibility to empower or capacitate its committees, and committee members have an obligation to do their work diligently.
Yes, the executive accounts to Parliament. But this does require a restatement that indicates that this is both a political and constitutional mandate and not a matter of personal preference. Poorly capacitated committees render oversight a mere formality without a mutual enlightenment that enhances the quality of service delivery. The executive has the responsibility to ensure that the information brought to Parliament is qualitative, accurate and timeous. That is, officials should not come before committees ill-prepared and also mislead Members of Parliament, and annual reports must not have inaccurate data and facts and that they should be submitted in time.
The APC is raising these issues because in the past financial year we have seen officials coming unprepared and having to be sent back, officials blatantly misleading members and Parliament receiving annual reports without cause very late or not receiving them at all. Oversight over the executive is an indispensable necessity that must be done without fear, favour or prejudice and committees must not be seen to be currying favours with the executive at the expense of robust oversight.
Parliament's support for committees has been tardy. Sometimes there is a pedestrian approach to attending to committee challenges. Committees are the engines of Parliament. Let us hope that beginning with the new increase in the allocation of committees, there will be changes for the better. Certainly there are visible improvements, but much more still needs to be done.
As Parliament we represent our people. Their hopes and dreams for a better life are, in some way, dependent on our work. This is a people's Parliament. Let the needs and concerns of our people be at the centre of our work. The APC is steadfast in its commitment to work for a society that is democratic in form, nonracial in character and socialistic in content. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS
Mr N T GODI
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairman, I want to say to the hon Khunou that she must be sure of her facts before she decides to speak on matters she knows very little of. It is not at all clear why she chose to speak about the demolition of churches in this debate, but I suppose if you have nothing much to say, that is the kind of thing you do.
Many people have chosen to speak today about oversight and accountability, and it is obviously a very important issue. But the hon Davidson pointed out some of the serious problems facing us in terms of oversight and accountability and the Programme attached to it. Certainly, this does need addressing. He also pointed out that it is a cause for real concern that the Joint Rules Committee seldom meets. But as far as this House is concerned, the National Assembly, it is of even greater concern, because the Joint Rules Committee of this House never sits.
It is to this body, Mr Speaker, that the DA has submitted various proposals, some years ago already, to look at the whole issue of oversight and accountability. Quite frankly, the proposals we have made also attempt to address the ways that our parliamentary programme operates. Certainly we believe that our parliamentary programme is in urgent need of a revamp.
You said in your opening remarks, Mr Speaker, that during the last year we have built on the legacy of previous Parliaments. You are quite right, Sir. This Parliament is regrettably as boring as the last one was. The truth is, our parliamentary programmes, parliamentary structures, what is expected of MPs and generally our own participation as MPs, does leave a great deal to be desired. The best example of this, quite clearly, is Question Time. This is the most boring part of our programme, whereas in many respects it should be, and certainly as in many other Parliaments, the most dynamic and engaging. But it is the structure of Question Time that makes it boring, Mr Speaker. We need to change it. We need to reintroduce interpellations, as the hon Shilowa mentioned. We need create the opportunity for MPs to ask more follow-up questions so that proper dialogue with Ministers occurs. We need to consider holding Question Time more frequently, maybe two or three times a week for an hour each, with each cluster questioned every week. We need to make Question Time far more interactive, far more alive. Question Time should be an opportunity to really interrogate Ministers. It has become, in fact, a protection mechanism for them because it is so static and unimaginative.
But on the issue of MPs participation, let me say that we as members of this House have a great deal to answer for ourselves. We have contributed - we do contribute on a daily basis - to making our debates boring. There is very little effort from MPs to really debate in this House. Very little effort is in fact made by MPs to improve the overall standard of debates in this House. Most MPs simply stand up and read their speeches, a monologue, with no reference to what anyone has said before them and no attempt to engage members in the debate at all. Head down and read, Mr Speaker, is often the order of debate. In other words, Sir, this is not a debating Chamber, this is in fact a speechmaking Chamber; and often, quite frankly, poor speeches as far as that goes as well. [Interjectons.]
Please, may I have an extra two minutes and I'll slow down and show you how to deliver a speech, Sir. [Laughter.] People stand up and deliver their speeches and make no attempt to even acknowledge, let alone challenge, what others have said in a debate. We need to change this, Mr Speaker, and it is always worth remembering what Rule 62 says:
A member shall as far as possible refrain from reading his or her speech, but may refresh his or her memory by referring to notes.
I would urge this House; I would urge all parties to encourage their members to abide by this particular Rule.
Mr Cronin, the next time you deliver a speech in this House I am going to watch you with a great deal of interest, Sir - a huge amount of interest.
But, Mr Speaker, there is also a need to introduce different types of debates into this House. Member's debates, party debates, etc. Instead, the only debates we have other than Budget debates in this House are debates on national days, and we have these every year interminably year after year. So, let's change this structure, Mr Speaker. Let's have far more short, sharp debates - areas of concern to parties and to members. Quite frankly, if you think about it, there is no reason why we shouldn't do this.
Parties propose motions every single day they are entitled to in this House, but in actual fact, none of those motions are ever debated. Mr Speaker, wouldn't it be fascinating too if, for example, Ministers were prepared to take questions during their speeches? This would really help to make the debate very interactive. I can imagine the hon Stofile, for example, standing up and answering to a question from Mr Lee, having a direct dialogue across the floor. Wouldn't that be fantastic? You'd be too scared to take the hon Lee on, Sir. [Laughter.] We know that. But we don't want to have silly questions like the ones the hon Chauke stands up and ask. In fact, the trouble with Mr Chauke is that he doesn't know the difference between a question and a point of order, but of course that's another matter altogether.
Mr T S FARISANI: Order. [Laughter.] A point of order. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: This is a former Speaker, but he doesn't know anything anyway. So, it's okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Is that a point of order, Sir?
Mr T S FARISANI: Chair, our Constitution calls on all of us to respect all the cultures in South Africa, and so does the Freedom Charter. The hon member, in speaking, is always pointing at people using this finger. In my mother tongue this finger is called "musimbavhaloi". [Laughter.]
You only use it when you are pointing at witches and wizards. [Laughter.] So, the hon member should refrain from doing that. [Laughter.]
Mr M J ELLIS: I will certainly remember that. But I sincerely hope that I will never have to point a finger at the hon Farisani, but who knows. [Laughter.] Things happen that we don't always expect.
We have to do something about this. We need more short, sharp debates. We need to be involved in making Parliament infinitely more dynamic.
We also need to develop a new structure and procedure in our Parliament. We need to revamp it. I'm asking the Speaker if he would please consider making this his legacy for this fourth Parliament. Let's change our programme, Mr Speaker. Let's form a committee. Let's get together and talk about how we can make Parliament infinitely more interesting than it is. I think it's very important indeed.
On a good point to conclude, one of our greatest obstacles to the proper flow of debates in this House is that too often the presiding officers do not know the Rules of debates or how to apply them. There is at times rigidity of application and at others no proper application at all, and this needs to be addressed. I would therefore ask the hon Speaker to think of instituting some form of training for presiding officers when they are first appointed to rectify this. It really does this Parliament no good with the situation as it is at the present time. I thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
Mr M J ELLIS
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU: WOBUDLELWANE NAMAZWE OMHLABA: Sihlalo, malungu ahloniphekile, Somlomo wePhalamende, kanye nabasivakashele ngiyanibingelela, ...
English :
... allow me to first deal with some of the issues that were raised by the members. Some members raised issues concerning the reintroduction of interpellations, the allocation of speaking time, programming and constituency funding. Hon members, we have subcommittees dealing with the programme of Parliament in this Parliament. It is unfortunate that some of these issues were raised by Chief Whips of other parities, who also participate in Chief Whip's Forums. The Chief Whip's Forum is the structure that decides on the programme of Parliament and time allocation. They are supposed to make a proposal to the presiding officers about the funding of constituencies and caucuses. The very same members participate in other structures such as the Joint Rules Committee and the programme committees. Members should not point fingers at others but on themselves because they are equally responsible.
Hon Kalyan raised the issue of international agreements that bind all South African citizens without the involvement of Parliament during negotiations. Section 231(1) of the Constitution says:
The negotiation and signing of all international agreements is the responsibility of the national executive.
Section 231(2) says:
The international agreement binds the Republic only after it has been approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.
Therefore, as members of Parliament, we have to get briefings. I do believe that these briefings are done at committee level. Ministers have to go and brief the committees. At the end of the day, committees have to dictate the kind of briefing they want; whether this should be from Ministers or officials. When it comes to international agreements in particular, I believe that committees must make a request to Ministers who participated in negotiations to give them a briefing before agreements are ratified. Therefore, as members of this House, let us not shift these responsibilities.
An hon member raised the issue of lack of research and capacity for Pan-African Parliament members. I can agree partly when it comes to the issue of support, that we still have challenges. For example, in the last meeting, when I requested the programme of the Pan-African Parliament, the members informed me that they didn't know what they were going to do. I am saying this as a person responsible when comes to international relations. This was on a Friday, and the meeting was supposed to take place on Monday. The question is: What kind of support are you going to be given when you don't even have the programme in front of you and don't even understand the issues that are going to be debated in that particular forum?
I believe that members should take the responsibility to outline programmes and activities they participate in. I also believe that when Parliament took the decision that members should go and be its representative, it expected these members to come back and give information on challenges they were facing. Even in the report given to the PGIR meeting, there was no indication of anything raised today by members as challenges. Those reports were also given back to different focus groups, including the Pan-African Parliament. I believe that those members will come up with recommendations on how they want to be supported.
IsiZulu:
Ngonyaka ophelile siyiPhalamende sathi siyokwenza isiqiniseko sokuthi isigungu esibhekelene nokuxhumana nokuba yingxenye ezingxoxweni zamazwe ngamazwe siyokwakhiwa ngokusemthethweni. Ngalesosikhathi-ke izimemo zamagama amalungu azohlala kuleso sigungu zabe seziphumile, sathi futhi siyobuye sakhe izinhlaka ezingaphansi kwaso leso sigungu "subcommittees", sachaza futhi ukuthi lezi zinhlaka zosebenza kanjani. Ngiyafisa-ke ukwazisa le Ndlu ukuthi ngabe sesihambe safikaphi ...
English:
... as part of accountability of that particular structure. We should all be accountable.
IsiZulu:
Isigungu lesi ebengikhuluma ngaso sesakhiwe ngokusemthethweni kanye nezinhlaka zaso. Izinhlaka zalesi sigungu ezakhiwe yilezi: Inter-Parliamentary Union, SADC Parliamentary Forum, Pan African Parliament, South Africa-European Union, African, Caribbean, Pacific, and European Union.
Kunohlaka olulodwa esingakalakhi olubizwa ngokuthi i-Common World Parliamentary Association. Isizathu esenza ukuthi singalwakhi ukuthi isigungu soSotswebhu esididiyele sathatha isinqumo sokuthi kumele kube nomthethosisekelo ozolawula igatsha laseMzansi Afrika ngamanye amazwi i-"South Africa Branch Constitution".
Uma ngingase ngiwabikele amalungu ukuthi lolu hlaka selukhona njengamanje, kusasa luzobe lwethulwa ngokusemthethweni koSotswebhu abadidiyelwe ukuthi balubheke ngaphambi kokuthi luye esigungwini esifanelekile ukuze bakwazi ukuthi benze izincomo, bese luya kwi-Joint Rules, ukuze i-Joint Rules yenze izincomo kule Ndlu, bese isiyaphasiswa ngokusemthethweni bese sakha igatsha le-CPA.
Okunye esingadlana ngakho indlebe ukuthi ama-subcommittes ayasebenza, ngikhuluma nje ngaphambi kokuthi le Ndlu ithathe ikhefu, i-SADC-PF Focus Group ihlalile yabheka izincomo ezathathwa ngumkhandlu we-SADC Palementary Forum ngonyaka ophelile e-Victoria Falls. Yabuye yabheka nohlelo lokugumba usuku lwe-Africa Day, lokhu sikwenza njenge ngxenye yokuqinisekisa ukuxhumana kwamaPhalamende amazwe ngamazwe ikakhulukazi izwekazi lase-Afrika.
Kusasa lokhu okusayo sicelile ehhovisi likaSoswebhu Weqembu Elibusayo uKhongolose ukuthi asinikeze isikhathi sokuba sethule umbiko ngendima esihanjiwe ngamalungiselelo e-Africa Day. Siyocela-ke ukuthi oSotswebhu babikele izigungu zabo zodliwanondlebe "Caucus" ngokwezinhlangano zabo, futhi siyanxusa ukuthi amalungu aleNdlu abe yingxenye yalomgubho, mhlaka 25 kwephezulu.
Lokhu kuyisiqinisekiso sokuthi izinqumo ezathathwa kwinkomfa ka Khongolose ziyenziwa, isinqumo engisicaphunayo esithi: ...
English:
... We need to work on improving the relationship between South African communities and foreign nationals and conduct awareness campaigns amongst our communities to prevent incidents resulting from xenophobia.
IsiZulu:
Lawo-ke bekungamagqabantshintshi nje ebengithi angiwabeke. Enyangeni kaNdasa ziyisishagalombili kwaba nenhlanganiso yokugubha usuku lomama. Lolu hlelo lwabe luholwa uSekela Somlomo kanye nesigungu sabesifazane esididiyele "multi-Party Women's Caucus". Kwaba nezincomo ezathathwa lapho engethemba ukuthi nazo ziyobekwa kule Ndlu ukuze zixoxwe. Enyangeni kaNtulikazi kuzoba nenkomfa ye-CPA esifundazweni saseMpumalanga.
Bekungaba kuhle ukuthi uhlelo lwePhalamende lukwazi ukuvumela amalungu aleNdlu ukuba abe nethuba lokuba amabhekeleli, ikakhulukazi emaphuzwini okuzobe kunengxoxompikiswano ngawo. Lokho-ke siyocela ukuthi inkundla yoSoswebhu oMkhulu ikakhulukazi ibuke ukuthi izinsuku ze-CPA izozinikezela kanjani ukuze amalungu aleNdlu akwazi ukuba yingxenye yaleyo nhlanganiso. Sibuye sabamba iqhaza ngokuba yingxenye kuma-Obsever Missions abeholwa yi-SADC-PF kulamazwe alandelayo, iBotswana iNamibia, iMozambique, kanye neMauritius. Ngiyafisa ukubonga amalungu abemele le Ndlu ngokusebenza ngokuzikhandla nangokuzinikela. Ngiyafisa futhi ukubonga ...
English:
... the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation for implementing the resolution taken in Polokwane that says:
South African embassies should play the role of providing delegations with information and advice on protocol without undermining the separation of powers as stipulated in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
IsiZulu :
Kodwa-ke ngiyafuna ukusho ukuthi kona kusashoda, siyocela ikomidi loBudlelwano Namazwe Omhlaba kanye Nokubambisana eliholwa uMnumzane uNxesi ukuthi lenze umsebenzi walo wokuvakashela amaNxusa ukubhekelela ukuthi ngabe wonke asebenza ngendlela efanayo yini ngokumyalelo womphathiswa ophethe lo Mnyango.
Ngiyafisa-ke Somlomo ukuthi ngiqhubeke ngoba nesikhathi siyahamba, ukuthi siyile Phalamende kufanele siqinisekile ukuthi umphakathi uyafundiseka ngeqhaza elibanjwe yiPhalamende. Sasithe kungakuhle ukuthi amakomidi abambele imihlangano yawo ngaphandle kweziNdlu zePhalamende, futhi kunomkhakha obhekene ngqo nalomsebenzi ongaphansi kukaNobhala-Jikelele wePhalamende esiwubiza ngokuthi i-Public education Unit, kukhona ngisho ama-Parliamentary Democracy Offices ekubeni umhlonishwa u-Kalyan uthe awasebenzi.
Ngifisa ukusho ukuthi ake sizibheke thina njengamalungu aleNdlu ukuthi ngabe siyazisebenzisa yini izakhiwo ezibekwe yileli Phalamende ukuthi sizisebenzise ngendlela efanelekile, ngoba ama-democracy offices analo lonke ulwazi lokuthi kwenzakalani ePhalamende. Umsebenzi wethu ngamahhovisi esizinda sabalandeli bethu ukuthi sakhe izinhlelo bese kuthi labo basebenzi abakulawo ma-Parliamentary Democracy Offices beze bazosifundisela umphakathi okumele siwubhekelele ukuze bakwazi ukuthi nabo baqhubekisele phambili uhlelo lwabo.
Kodwa uma thina njengePhalamende singalibambi leloqhaza lokuthi sihole azohlala angasebenzi, ngakho-ke bengifisa ukuthi ngesikhathi se-constituency ake siwasebenziseni futhi-ke ngiyazi ukuthi izinhlangano zepolitiki ziyanikezwa izimali zama-constituency, yebo sizosho ukuthi incane kodwa siyayisebenzisa yini noma cha.
Mhlawubhe lezo zinto yizinto okufanele sizibhekelele, ukuze sikwazi ukuphumelela kudingeka ukuthi sibe nokwesekwa okwanele ikakhulukazi kuBudlelwano Namazwe Omhlaba. Ngiyafisa-ke ukuthi kunobhala wePhalamende ukuthi kulezi zikhalo ezikhona kanye nokhwakha kabusha "restructuring" akwenze ngokuphazima kweso, ngoba uma kungenzeki angeke sikwazi ukuqhubekela phambili siyileNdlu.
Siyabonga-ke ukuthi uSomlomo neSekela lakhe, oSihlalo beNdlu kanye namalungu aleNdlu ayaseseka singoSihlalo beNdlu sikwazi ukusebenzisana ndawonye. Okokugcina sizocela ukuthi kube nokuqeqeshwa kwamalunga aleNdlu mhlawumbe abe ngamashumi amathathu noma amane mayelana ne-Observer Mission ukuze sikwazi ukubambe iqhaza ngendlela ezokwamukeleka ngaphansi kwemibandela ekhona kwi-SADC.
Ngiyakholwa futhi ukuthi iPhalamende linazo izindawo zokufundisa, lokho-ke siyocela ukuthi kwenzeke masinyane ngoba ngoSeptemba iTanzania izobe iya okhethweni kanti ngonyaka ozayo ngoNdasa iZimbabwe izobe iya okhethweni. Ngakho-ke singoSihlalo beNdlu siyasesekela lesi sabiwomali noma ngabe sincane kangakanani. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
Adv T M MASUTHA
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
Xitsonga:
Adv T M MASUTHA: Mutshama-xitulu, ndzi yima ematshan'wini ya ANC ku ta seketela ku avanyisiwa ka mali leyi fambelanaka na mafambiselo ya Palamende eka siku ra namuntlha. Loko ndzi nga si ya emahlweni, ndzi lava ku pfunetanyana ndzi hlamusela Tat Muchaviseki Shilowa hi Xitsonga leswi Tat Chauke a va ringeta ku mi kombisa swona.
Loko Muf Meshoe a ri kona a ta mi hlamusela leswaku na le Bibeleni swi tsariwile:
U nga voni xilavi etihlweni ra makwenu kambe ku ri na ntsandza emahlweni ka wena lowu ku tsandzisaka ku vona kahle leswaku ntiyiso wu le kwihi.
Leswi a va ringeta ku swi hlamusela hi leswaku murhangeri wa n'wina wa Cope la nga hundza, Tat Lekota, u hlamuserile rixaka leswaku ku na mali leyi nga twisisekiki leswaku yi tirhisiwe njhani eka nhlangeletano wa n'wina eka lembe leri nga hundza. Hikwalaho a va lava ku twisisa leswaku leswi mi swi vula njhani mi nga si hlamusela leswi mi tshamaka mi hi byela hi swona leswaku mfumo a wu na vutihlamuleri; a wu tirhisi mali ya rixaka hi ndlela leyi faneleke.
Leswi swi endliwa hi mhaka ya leswaku hina hi ri swirho swa Palamende leyi, hi fanele hi sungula hi tilangutisa ku vona leswaku swilo leswi hi nge van'wana va swi landzelela, xana hina ha swi landzelela ke? Leswi hi leswi Tat Chauke a va ringeta ku mi hlamusela swona. Ndza tshemba leswaku mi kote ku swi twisisa hi Xitsonga.
English:
But let me proceed to deal with some of the issues that have been raised in this debate this afternoon. Sticking with hon Shilowa, I would like to concede the point that he correctly highlighted that delegated legislation, as the Constitution stipulates, requires to be scrutinised by this Parliament, given the fact that this Parliament has original law-making authority and therefore equally has the responsibility to ensure that when it delegates that authority to others, it ensures that those who then subsequently exercise that authority exercise it in line with the Constitution and the principles that it articulates. There I agree with the hon member.
However, where I disagree with him is with his proposal that there be a shift of the rules of engagement, especially when his own members are in default of those rules. The Deputy Speaker ruled a member of your party out of order, and that member of your party sought to contest the authority of the Deputy Speaker. There cannot possibly be any rule change that would promote the kind of anarchic practice where members would be allowed to have an altercation with a presiding officer. Otherwise proceedings of the House and the entire House itself would become completely dysfunctional and debilitated. That was the issue. [Applause.] And I think we must face the truth and not hide behind trivia.
As we debate this budget allocation of Parliament, it is incumbent on us to pause and reflect on our mandate and answer the question: Why are we here? As the ANC, we move from the premise that political power is not attained for its own sake, but to pursue given political and sociopolitical objectives. We emerged through a democratic process based, first and foremost, on the principle of universal suffrage, where the people expressed their confidence in us and pinned their hopes on the promises that we made to them, which we dare not fail to fulfil.
Our specific mandate as Parliament and the manner in which we are enjoined to discharge it, have been well articulated in various parts of the Constitution, and I need not specify those provisions. We make laws with the involvement of our people through the public participation system that includes the holding of public hearings to solicit their input. We provide a platform for consideration of issues affecting our society through public debate. We hold the executive accountable in the implementation of national legislation and policy to ensure access to services by our people. We exercise this oversight role by, amongst other things, inviting the executive and government departments to the various committees to account for the programmes they implement and their utilisation of public resources allocated to them by this Parliament, and by inviting the executive regularly to respond to questions relating to the discharge of their functions and responsibilities under the Constitution. All these matters have been thoroughly canvassed in the debate this afternoon.
Through the constituency system, jointly with other public representatives from the provincial and local spheres of government, we make ourselves directly available to the public to respond to, and intervene in, any issues relating to their access to the services I have alluded to provided by government, and information relating to the availability of those services.
South Africa is a constitutional democracy of a special kind. Over and above adhering to the principle of separation of powers between the three arms of state or government - namely the legislative, executive and judicial – we have gone further to entrench a value system based on human rights by including a bill of rights in the Constitution. We went even further to create various constitutional institutions to entrench safeguards and support this system of democracy. These institutions or instruments include, but are not limited to, the often talked about Chapter 9 institutions, such as the Human Rights Commission, the Public Protector and the Auditor-General. In particular, I wish to highlight the role of the Auditor-General, not so much because I am honoured to chair the standing committee that oversees that body, but because of its special role as the supreme audit authority in the country in terms of our Constitution and in line with international best practice.
The role of the Auditor-General in ensuring good and clean governance cannot be overemphasised. The latest audit outcomes reflected in the Auditor-General's reports are a cause for concern. Even though some improvement has occurred in some respect, eg with regard to the improvement in accounting systems and increased co-operation and demonstration of leadership amongst executive functionaries at all three spheres of government, according to the Auditor-General's own words, "much still needs to be done to improve our system of accountability" in government.
Section 181 of the Constitution, in addition to establishing this Chapter 9 institution, defines the relationship that other organs of state must maintain with this Chapter 9 institution. Subsections 2 to 5 specifically state, and I quote:
(2) These institutions are independent, and subject only to the Constitution and the law, and they must be impartial and must exercise their powers and perform their functions without fear, favour or prejudice.
(3) Other organs of state, through legislative and other measures, must assist and protect these institutions to ensure the independence, impartiality, dignity and effectiveness of these institutions.
(4) No person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning of these institutions.
(5) These institutions are accountable to the National Assembly, and must report on their activities and the performance of their functions to the Assembly at least once a year.
Now the work of these institutions and the reports that they are required by the Constitution to submit to this House constitute a valuable resource for us as members and as parliamentary committees to perform our oversight function. These institutions were created in part to assist Parliament in discharging its oversight mandate, hence it is up to Parliament to ensure that their findings and recommendations are carefully considered, adopted and enforced by it.
The challenge, however, is the capacity of Parliament and its committees, as well as individual members, to discharge these constitutional responsibilities with the meagre resources allocated to it. For us to do effective oversight, we require such resources as content specialists and researchers with expert knowledge of the fields that we work in, and with a clear mandate to go beyond information that has been provided by government departments in obtaining and presenting before these respective committees full information on issues of service delivery and other matters that affect the public. We require sufficient allocation of resources to do committee work such as holding public hearings and passing legislation. [Time expired.] I thank you very much. The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER
Adv T M MASUTHA
Mr T M MASUTHA
The SPEAKER: Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all the hon members who have spoken and made contributions. These are certainly most welcome and have all been noted. We have taken copious notes. I also want to thank my colleagues who have already answered to some of the questions. In fact they answered both questions that had been raised and questions that had not yet been asked. We are happy that there is this ongoing dialogue and discussion around issues of what it is that we want to achieve for this Parliament and how to go about achieving it.
Hon Davidson raised the issue of unanswered questions. I did, in my speech this year and last year, express concern that there are these questions that need to be answered, and I undertook that I was going to raise the matter with the Leader of Government Business, which I have done. As I've said it's ongoing and I continue to engage the Deputy President who is the Leader of Government Business. In fact, there has been an improvement with regard to the issue of unanswered questions. The Deputy President has assured me that we will continue addressing this issue.
Hon Davidson also raised the issue of 500 plus questions, some of which date back to before 2009. I am sure the hon member is aware that questions of a previous year lapse at the end of the annual session of Parliament, and the Rules of this Parliament do not allow for questions to be carried over. [Interjections.] Can I get protection?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members!
The SPEAKER: Our Rules do not allow for questions to be carried over. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Davidson, order, please!
The SPEAKER: May I suggest that maybe members look at how to amend this Rule, but for now it is the Rule.
I would also like to speak on the other issue raised by the hon Davidson on the inability of structures of Parliament to take decisions and to also remind the member that he serves on all these structures, including the Chief Whips' Forum. So, the point is that we, wherever we are, need to make sure that all the structures function and function well.
Furthermore, I said in my speech this afternoon that we want to make this a vibrant Parliament that is able to take decisions and move forward. If there are any issues, I'm certainly hoping that we would be able to sit down and say what it is that we need to change for the better. We want this Parliament to be a better Parliament and to work effectively and efficiently. We all have a collective responsibility in this regard.
Having said that, again we should look at ways in which we can ensure more effective co-ordination and communication among the different structures. And we want, again, to look at the governance model, which we need to discuss in some detail. It might perhaps answer some of the questions and concerns that have been raised to date.
Chairperson Bapela is correct when he says that the money is not enough. It's a classical case of the wants, the needs and the resources. It's always difficult to balance those. The needs are greater than the resources available, which is why we also emphasise the issue of efficiency and effective use of the limited resources we have. We are receiving 2% of the national Budget. We certainly would want to get more money, but for now we don't have more resources.
It's also a case which is a bit of a problem, as I mentioned earlier, that we have money that we cannot spend, yet we want more money. We need to find a solution to this problem. We only spent 69% of the budget, yet we want more when we cannot spend it. There certainly is a problem. There are bottlenecks that we need to address. Before we say we want more money, let's address the problem so that we can use the money effectively and efficiently. Adding more money does not solve the problem. Let's find the problem and identify it correctly, then we can find the solution to it.
The hon Shilowa raised an issue which the hon Masutha has addressed at length, which is how do we define a better role for Parliament in secondary legislation, ie legislations which are drafted by the executive and whose constitutionality should be tested. It was greed at the Joint Rules Committee of 22 April 2010 that a draft resolution to establish interim mechanisms for scrutiny of delegated legislation be adopted by the Joint Rules Committee and placed before the House for consideration. That was the decision, and it needs to come to the House.
Hon Greyling raised the issue of political party funding. The request from the hon member Greyling that the Joint Rules Committee discuss a proposal for the establishment of an ad hoc committee to consider drafting legislation to regulate private party funding could not be placed on the agenda. As I had explained in the Joint Rules Committee meeting of 22 April 2010, the establishment of ad hoc committees is a decision taken directly by the House, or, in the case of joint ad hoc committee, by both Houses.
The Joint Rules Committee considers the establishment of permanent joint committees. And as we all know, the normal procedure for introducing legislation by a member is through the use of Rule 234, and the proposal is considered by the Committee on Private Members' Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions. The other procedures would be through the committee of Parliament. As Speaker, I do not have the power - although people believe I do - to instruct the National Assembly to introduce legislation, notwithstanding my opinion or interest in the matter.
I certainly agree with the hon Kaylan about the need for increased public participation - I also mentioned this in my speech - and the role of Parliament in international relations,.
In terms of Chapter 9 institutions and the so-called "Kader Asmal report", this is a recommendation that is before the Parliamentary Oversight Authority and the Joint Rules Committee.
With regard to the Pan-African Parliament, I agree with the comments made by Chairperson Oliphant, that in fact we are concerned about the Pan-African Parliament, which is not quite functioning as it should - which is why we have seconded, as Parliament, one of our own members. We are going to lose him in Parliament, but we think he will add value to the work of the Pan-African Parliament which we host, and that is Adv Madasa. We have also agreed that we will continue to give all support - political, moral and technical - to the Pan-African Parliament to make sure that it does function and function as an important body representing Parliaments of the continent. So, we do agree that something has to be done, but we also want to say that something is being done.
With regard to speaking time for smaller parties, I think hon members will remember that when I came in as Speaker I did invite leaders of parties and had discussions with them. I expressed my preference that there should be more time given to parties and that the minimum time would at least be three minutes. However, that is the decision of political parties. I have expressed my preference, but the decision is actually not mine, it is yours.
Around the issue of constituency allowances, again this is actually a decision of political parties. They are the ones who are in charge of the constituency allowances.
In terms of the issue of the budget office, which was raised by a number of members, let me inform members that the presiding officers met with political task team responsible for the implementation of Money Bills Amendment Procedures and Related Matters Act on 20 April 2010. The purpose of the meeting was to receive a progress report from the task team and to discuss around the implementation of the Money Bills Amendment Procedures and Related Matters Act with the view of reaching a common understanding. The process of establishing a budget office may seem to be slower than necessary. However, members will remember that this is an important and complex legislation that requires careful consideration and implementation.
I have suggested to the task team that it would be advisable that we consult with other parliaments that have established budget offices to ensure that we benchmark with the best model out there. As I said, it is important to learn from others to avoid reinventing the wheel.
I also want to confess here that I was wrong on some issues. For example, I was all along under the impression that the Canadian model of the budget office is one of the best in the world, until I met the Minister of International Trade of Canada on March 16 2010 when he paid a courtesy call to Parliament. When I raised this issue he looked at me with great, great surprise and concern. He informed me that the Canadian budget office does not serve the objective for which it was established, and as such it has not assisted parliament in any way whatsoever. He did suggest that we not look at the Canadian model. We might look at other models, but we are not going to look at the Canadian model.
I agree that we need to improve our public participation and involvement in Parliament; there can certainly be no doubt about that. Parliament will review the work of members in constituencies as well with the view of finding measures on how best it can improve and enhance a representative democracy.
A lot of these comments are valuable because we will be looking at them and making sure that we are able to factor them as we go forward in terms of improving how Parliament works.
I agree entirely with the hon Dudley that global financial pressure led to domestic pressure, and that there is a real decrease in the budget allocation. I think that is spot on.
There is another issue on party funding being inadequate, but that there is a real increase despite the inadequacy of 2, 1% in the current budget. I think that is to be commended.
Chairperson Skosana, I just want to indicate that that the Quarterly Consultative Forum meets monthly and discusses all the interests of Members of Parliament. I also sympathise with the hon Chairperson Skosana that his 10 minutes appeared to be fewer than the 10 minutes that he normally allows himself when he speaks. I want to suggest that perhaps the 10 minutes was not enough because he did use the time to give out the names, addresses and telephone numbers of staff; that does take up quite a bit of time. [Laughter.]
I agree with what you said, Hon Ellis. With you experience you say that all the Parliaments have been boring. I wasn't here, but I take your word for it that it has been very boring. So, let's make sure that it's not boring. Let's do something about it.
I want to thank you again for your participation and comments, and I also support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
The SPEAKER
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, you are invited by the presiding officers to the cocktail party. The buses will leave at 18:00 from the outside of the NCOP building, and transport will also be arranged from the venue to parliamentary villages. Hon members, I'm informed that the cocktail party will be held at Southern Sun Hotel, which is the old Cape Sun Hotel. It is located in Strand Street.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - VOTE NO 23: JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Order disposed of without debate.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance abstaining).
Report accordingly adopted.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant)
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS - VOTE NO 6: PUBLIC WORKS, AND STRATEGIC PLAN FOR 2010-11 TO 2012-13 OF DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TOURISM - VOTE NO 34: TOURISM
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING - VOTE NO 16: HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON MINERAL RESOURCES - VOTE NO 31: MINERAL RESOURCES, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION - VOTE NO 5: INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - VOTE NO 3: CO-OPEARTIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HUMAN SETTLEMENTS - VOTE NO 30: HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS AND ITS HOUSING ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT - VOTE NO 18: SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - VOTE NO 12: STATISTICS SOUTH AFRICA
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES - VOTE NO 7: WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - VOTE NO 33: SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, AND CORPORATE STRATEGY 2010-13
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - VOTE NO 27: ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION - VOTE NO 11: PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HEALTH - VOTE NO 15: HEALTH, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH FOR 2010-11 TO 2012-13
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS - VOTE NO 26: COMMUNICATIONS, AND DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS - VOTE NO 8: GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATION AND INFORMATION SYSTEM, AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS - VOTE NO 37: WATER AFFAIRS
There was no debate.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS - VOTE NO 29:ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ENTERPRISES - VOTE NO 10: PUBLIC ENTERPRISES, AND STRATEGIC PLAN 2010-11 TO 2012-13 OF DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT - STRATEGIC PLAN AND BUDGET OF DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES - VOTE NO 25: AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON LABOUR - VOTE NO 17: LABOUR, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HOME AFFAIRS - VOTE NO 4: HOME AFFAIRS, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS AND ITS ENTITIES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY - VOTE NO 35: TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SPORT AND RECREATION - VOTE NO 19: SPORT AND RECREATION SOUTH AFRICA, AND STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF SPORT AND RECREATION FOR 2010-14
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM - VOTE NO 32: RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON CORRECTIONAL SERVICES - VOTE NO 20: CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS - VOTE NO 21: DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ENERGY - VOTE NO 28: ENERGY
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE - VOTE NO 24: POLICE
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON POLICE - VOTE NO 22: INDEPENDENT COMPLAINTS DIRECTORATE
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO EASTERN CAPE ON 1-3 FEBRUARY 2010
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO CAPE PENINSULA UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY, CPUT, CAPE TOWN CAMPUS
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION - ANNUAL REPORT OF DEPARTMENT OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION FOR 2008-09
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO DIFFERENT ENTRY POINTS FOCUSING ON CUSTOMS FRAUD
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO COMPANIES IN DISTRESS
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ENTERPRISES - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO STATE-OWNED ENTERPRISES ON 16-19NOVEMBER 2009
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY - REVIEW OF NATIONAL GAMBLING LEGISLATION
Order disposed of without debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 17:30.
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