Hansard: Second Reading Debate: Constitution 14th Amendment Bill; Constitution 15th Amendment Bill; General Laws (Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 20 Aug 2008
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 28
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
2nd, 3rd and 4t Orders
GENERAL LAWS (LOSS OF MEMBERSHIP OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE OR MUNICIPAL COUNCIL) AMENDMENT BILL
CONSTITUTION FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT BILL
CONSTITUTION FIFTEEN AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading Debates)
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, comrades and friends, Mr L K Jourbet in his dissertation called The mandate of political representatives with special reference to floor crossing: A legal historical study opens his discussion of floor-crossing with a quotation of the following remark made by Winston Churchill, and I quote: "Some men…
And I suppose you can add women –
…change their party for the sake of their principles, others change their principles for the sake of their party".
I think that remark is a very apt one today as we discuss the ebullition of floor-crossing in our country. Mr Joubert also points out in his dissertation a whole lot of elements of where floor-crossing has actually existed in this country for a very long time, at least, since 1910. I'm not going to deal with all those but it is worth some reading. I mention this to illustrate that floor-crossing is not a new phenomenon to our democracy but that it has existed for many decades in South Africa – particularly in white South Africa - although possibly with different features as the kind of floor-crossing that we know at present.
The Interim Constitution, as amended by the final Constitution, contained an antidefection clause that penalised the member of a legislature who left his or her political party, in order to join another political party. You will all remember the old Item 23A (1) of Schedule 2 of the Interim Constitution provided, and I quote:
A person loses membership of a legislature if that person ceases to be a member of the party, which nominated that person as a member of the legislature.
The provision was also made that Item 23A may be amended by an ordinary Act of Parliament and not by the usual two-thirds to provide in the manner in which it will be possible for a member of a legislature, who ceases to be a member of the party which nominated that member to retain membership of such legislature; and, secondly, to provide for any existing party to merge with another party or for parties to subdivide.
The sanctioning of floor-crossing is said to have had some advantages in particular for the newly-established democracy in South Africa. The prohibition of floor-crossing not only implied that votes for a party were accurately translated into seats in a legislature, but also that parties had no chance to gain more seats except in the general elections. On the other hand, the weaknesses of the prohibition were often mentioned and, sometimes, even fearlessly debated in South Africa.
In 2001, problems within the opposition alliance led to discussions about a change in the law and the regulation of floor-crossing in South Africa. That situation led to Parliament passing four pieces of legislation in June 2002 that shared a common objective, namely, to enable a member of a legislature or municipal council to become a member of another party, whilst retaining membership of that legislature or council and, secondly, to enable existing political parties to merge or to subdivide
The constitutional validity of those four Acts was challenged in the case of UDM vs. the President of the Republic of SA. On 4 October 2002, the Constitutional Court held that floor-crossing legislation for national, provincial and local government is not inconsistent with the Constitution, but further held that the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Act, as a result of a procedural defect, was inconsistent with the Constitution and invalid. The other three pieces of legislation, however, were consistent.
Shortly after this, we drafted a new piece of legislation to create the Tenth Constitutional Amendment Act and to contain the contents of the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Act that had been declared unconstitutional. The principal object of that Act was to re-enact the provisions of the Membership Act. Institute for Democracy in South Africa, Idasa, in its submission to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, indicates, for example, that in total 1417 public representatives - 55 of them are Members of Parliament sitting here, 60 Members of Provincial Legislatures and 1302 Councillors - have crossed the floor in the five window periods for floor-crossing since the inception of floor-crossing in 2002 and, secondly, that the cumulative number of votes cast in the 2004 elections on national level would have been changed by 8% by these crossings of the floor.
Since the inception of floor-crossing a general resistance has developed amongst political parties and the public against floor-crossing. Furthermore, floor-crossing has strongly been criticised in many sectors of the media as well as in the public. A whole lot of reasons are given for that which I'm not going to list today.
Government has noted this resistance and criticism and has now introduced this legislation. You will also be aware that at the 52nd ANC Polokwane Conference at the end of last year, the party changed its policy stance on this matter and definitely adopted a policy for the ebullition of floor-crossing. Consequently, the need has arisen to abolish floor-crossing as it is one of the issues that we possibly have consensus across society.
The main objects of the three Bills before the house are to abolish floor-crossing and to provide for related matters. The three Bills must therefore be read in conjunction with each another. The effect of abolishing floor-crossing would mean that we revert to the position prior to 2002, when floor-crossing was formally introduced into our law. The Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill seeks to abolish floor-crossing in the national and provincial legislatures by repealing Schedule 6A. The Fifteenth Constitution Amendment Bill seeks to abolish floor-crossing at the local government by abolishing Schedule 6(B), and the General Laws Amendment Act then amends a whole list of pieces of legislation where we have to remove any reference to floor-crossing. As the next window period for floor-crossing at the local government is in September 2009, it's imperative that Parliament passes these three pieces of legislation before then.
I would like to thank the chairperson of the committee, Mr Carrim and all the members of the Justice and Constitutional Development Portfolio Committee for their hard work in dealing with these pieces of legislation. We've also noted the remarks they have made in the resolution on the report we just passed. I have also been informed that all the parties have unanimously passed this legislation and I do trust that will follow Mr Churchill's views and not change their ideas today. So, on behalf of the ANC I strongly recommend the passing of Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill, the Constitution the Fifteenth Amendment Bill and the General Laws (Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill, to the House.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr Y I CARRIM //sd
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 29
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-29] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: May I ask when did the Deputy Minister's name become J H van der Merwe because on the Speakers' List he is J H van der Merwe? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Well, we will consult the Minister of Home Affairs on that matter. [Laughter.]
Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Chair, comrades and friends, it's not as if we were all in the ANC very enthusiastic about agreeing to floor-crossing in 2002. In fact, as a whole, there was quite some ambivalence within the ANC on this. Our alliance partners, the SA Communist Party and Cosatu, were opposed to floor-crossing then, and they have constantly been calling for its abolition since we passed the legislation we did. Which is not say that they have decided for us. We, as the ANC have decided.
Those who processed the Bills at the time within the Justice and Provincial and Local Government study groups of the ANC will remember the endless debates and even tensions finally on what the terms of floor-crossing should be. Those who opposed floor-crossing tried to restrict possibilities as much as possible, but lost out. But that's democracy within a party - you win your arguments at times, and you lose at others, but finally you respect the views of the majority.
Of course, the ANC ensured that there were provisions in both the interim and the 1996 Constitutions barring floor-crossing. In 1997, following pressure from opposition parties to allow floor-crossing, Parliament set up an ad hoc committee on membership of legislatures. Again, the ANC majority in the committee decided that there shouldn't at that stage be floor-crossing within a proportional list electoral system. The ANC also constantly opposed private members' Bills allowing for floor-crossing.
In 2002, the ANC, with a certain ambivalence as I said, finally agreed to floor-crossing because of the change in the political terrain as set out in part by the Deputy Minister of Justice. There were various considerations. There was, of course, a significant political realignment taking place at the time, and there were shifts in political identity and orientation, especially within the opposition parties, and the ANC agreed to floor-crossing to facilitate the expression of this. Mainly, of course, this revolved around a major component of the former NNP public representatives being trapped within the DA, and they wanted out! Floor-crossing was the only answer at the time.
Of course, as the ANC, we may also have been unduly influenced in our support for floor-crossing at the time with the need to contain the DA and win the Western Cape provincial government. To the extent that this is true, we behaved, I suppose, like any other political party in a democracy. It is interesting that not just the DA, but 86% of this House, for whatever reason, voted for floor-crossing in 2002.
But we were clear that there were many other reasons why floor-crossing would be appropriate in the context. And for what it is worth, serving in the Provincial and Local Government portfolio committee at the time, I said in this House: "The underlying value is that councillors should cross the floor primarily because of ideological or policy reasons or because there is a significant shift of opinion within a party or the public, and not on the basis of individual whim or personal gain." Hence the thresholds of numbers set for councillors and other public representatives to meet in order to qualify for floor-crossing.
The ANC was also concerned about the racialised patterns of voting and believed that floor-crossing would help to erode this. Again, for what it is worth, I had this to say in the House at the time:
It is rather simplistic to believe that the ANC just wants to gobble up every councilor available. Part of the longer term aim is to deracialise the voting patterns. What sort of non-racial future do we have if Africans vote overwhelmingly for one major party and non-Africans almost wholly for a group of small marginalised parties? If managed appropriately, floor-crossing could, over time, contribute to less racialised voting patterns. And don't we all need that?
Well, we now want floor-crossing abolished because it has become, in essence, unseemly; it has become unacceptable. There have been unintended consequences of floor-crossing legislation that serve to undermine our democracy. While some people have crossed the floor for ideological and policy reasons, many have done so for very individualistic reasons, including in search of monetary gain and personal promotion and to escape from disciplinary action against them by their parties or personal feuds within their parties. This has been especially the case at local government level. Floor-crossing has become a circus in some municipalities, not least is a major metro like Cape Town. It has led to instability and undermined service delivery, with unnecessary changes in administration with major reshuffles of councillors through floor-crossing. And in this august House, no less, there is the curious phenomenon of one-person parties with no obvious electoral base or known policies at all. Obviously, it was never intended that floor-crossing would be reduced to this farce, and it had to be ended.
While floor-crossing advanced a degree of non-racialism at the level of public representatives, it has not done much to deracialise voting patterns as non-African public representatives crossing the floor have not been able to carry a significant section of their supporters over to parties which have their base mainly in the African community. Of course the challenge to deracialise the voting pattern remains. For the ANC, floor-crossing was merely one aspect of a multithronged strategy to achieve this. We obviously now need to intensify other aspects of the strategy and develop new and more creative elements of our overall strategy to erode racial voting patterns. But while this is a responsibility mainly of the ANC, all parties have a duty to contribute to this to entrench and advance nonracialism and democracy in our country.
Invariably, issues about electoral systems were raised in our consideration of these Bills. The majority in the committee feels that the current Proportional Representation, PR, system is appropriate for now. But as conditions change, there would be a need to review the electoral system to ensure increasing public participation in legislatures. The committee feels that within the first two years of the new five-year term of Parliament, Parliament should consider a review of the electoral system and examine the appropriateness of some form of an inclusive system that could possibly provide for both PR and constituency public representatives. We have no particular views on whether the system should be changed or not, and these issues are more appropriately dealt with by the Home Affairs Ministry and the parliamentary committee of Home Affairs. But we feel that a review of the electoral system should be considered periodically. Just as we have changed our position on floor-crossing, it might well be that in future we may want to change the electoral system, in whatever way, to ensure greater inclusiveness, representivity and accountability.
The committee feels that within the current PR system, the Speaker's Office could consider developing guidelines to ensure that MPs do not account only to our respective political parties for our constituency work, but also to Parliament as a whole. There might also be a need for the Speaker to foster co-operation between the Chief Whips of the various parties to see if we cannot ensure a greater geographical spread of our constituency offices.
Finally, may I also thank Imam Solomon for cochairing the processing of these Bills and for Mr John Jeffrey for coming to our rescue at the last minute and dealing with major technical amendments that we could not have actually done without his considerable assistance. I said in this House before that knowing Mr Jeffrey for over 20 years, I suspect that many of his more creative ideas come from his partner Prof P J Schwikkard and his 16-year-old son, David. Be that as it may, and I remain ever convinced of that, it seems to me that the committee is quiet right. I am not sure what the rules say, Madam Speaker. But the committee feels that given that he is already the parliamentary councillor to the President and given that he has many responsibilities and given too that he forewent those responsibilities to help us to process this Bill and meet our deadlines. We strongly recommend that he be promoted from Parliamentary Councillor to the President to Senior Parliamentary Councillor to the President. To win Mr Trevor Manuel over to this, we want to stress that there shall be no budgetary implications – he doesn't want any increase in his salary. So, can we give him a big round of applause for once again I am the person with the big mouth, but he is the one who delivers. So, thank you, John Jeffery, once again. And please, in return, don't praise me. The last time when I praised you, you praised me. And the House is going to discover that because we are homeboys in a sense. We spend most of our speeches praising each other. So, please don't praise me, and I won't let them know that you wrote this text that refers to you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr L K JOUBERT / keh / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 30
Nr Y I CARRIM
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-30] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr L K JOUBERT: Madam Speaker, I start by thanking the Deputy Minister for acknowledging my thesis. I'm honoured that he at least seems to have read it. Sitting there, looking at him across the floor, I think he is starting to remind me a lot of Churchill, so I think there are great days ahead for him.
In 2002, when the so-called floor-crossing legislation was adopted, this House supported the legislation with an overwhelming majority vote of 208 out of 324. That is more than 86%. Then, as now, the legislation was fast-tracked, although there was a Private Member's Bill asking for the same thing under the line for years. However, this Private Member's Bill was ignored, which seems to have become the norm in this Parliament. Not a single Private Member Bill has been passed in this House since 1999. [Interjections.]
But, when it is in the interests of the ruling party, time is made for such legislation, and the process is fast-tracked, irrespective of its importance. The urgency then, in 2002, was that the ANC-NNP alliance needed to present the Western Cape and Cape Town to the ANC. That is part of history today. In April 2006, two Private Member Bills, aimed at amending the Constitution by re-introducing an anti-defection clause, were tabled in Parliament, one by the hon Van der Merwe, and the other by Dr Delport of the DA. These Bills remained under the line until it suited the ANC to revive the matter. [Interjections.]
In December 2007, the ANC, at its Polokwane Conference, came to the conclusion that the political terrain which necessitated floor-crossing has changed, and therefore, floor-crossing had to be scrapped. Translated into plain English, this meant that we don't need it anymore, so let's get rid of it before it backfires on us. Before Polokwane, everything indicated that the ANC alliance was about to split. I still think it would have happened had the left not succeeded in executing the coup at Polokwane. Now it became important to prevent the party from splitting, and the result is that the ANC had to protect itself from possible defections; hence these Bills that are again brought to Parliament in haste.
Although all parties in the committee agreed to the abolishment of floor-crossing, and I doubt whether there would be any vote against these Bills today, I want us to stand still for a moment and contemplate seriously what we are doing and how we are doing it. We are not implementing these amendments because we made an in-depth study of the mandate and accountability of political representatives so as to improve our democratic system. No, on the contrary, we have done no research in this regard. We have not even dusted the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission's report; in fact, what we are doing is simply implementing an ANC conference resolution.
We are supporting these Bills for the simple reason that they remove a revolting measure from our Constitution, but at the same time, we lament the fact that, again, the matter of a political representative's mandate is brushed over without serious consideration. Although we support the scrapping of the present floor-crossing legislation, we believe that the wider picture needs to be addressed. After this amendment, we perpetuate the result of an election for five years. Five years is a long time in politics. Great wars have broken out and were finalised in less time.
Yet our current system of representation has no way of accommodating such changes. It is high time that we take our legislative function more seriously and make laws of general application and not for party-political gain. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 30
Mr L K JOUBERT
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, I support Mr Carrim when he says that JJ's title must be changed. He is now a counsellor. Mr Carrim wants him to be senior counsellor; we want him to be the former counsellor. [Laughter.]
Mr Carrim talks a lot of sense sometimes as a non-lawyer. He must remember that floor-crossing was a plain abuse of the Constitution in order to allow members of other parties to cross the floor to come to the ANC. However, Mr Carrim has, like Mr Johnny de Lange, also admitted a lot of failures in the ANC, and one wonders what Damascus experience they have had, because they are now admitting the many atrocities, the many failures of the ANC over a period of 15 years.
This debate is a huge triumph for the IFP. On behalf of the IFP, I submitted a private legislative proposal to scrap floor-crossing in late 2006 after the IFP had been inundated with criticism and dissatisfaction from voters of all political parties. The proposal that we have made will now eventually become an Act of Parliament. In the past also, Mr de Lange, people voted for individuals. They now vote for political parties. Political parties then compile lists of candidates for election, and therefore determine who are to represent the party.
The logical result is that seats that are won are the property of the party and not of the individual. By giving the seats to other parties, floor-crossers transfer rights which they themselves do not have. By doing so, they break a legal principle of many centuries, stating that one cannot give away something which is not yours, and the old Latin maxim is ...
Latin:
Nemo plus juris ad alium transferre quam ipse haberet.
English:
If ever there was a travesty of democracy, it was floor-crossing. The Bill will now put an end to the violation of our Constitution, and we trust that the ANC has learned its lesson and will never again violate our Constitution. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Thula. Hlala phansi. Hlala phansi. [Be quiet. Sit down, sit down.]
English:
Madam Speaker, I also want to agree with Mr Carrim that the time has arrived for us to review our electoral system. That was a good point that he made. Now, by taking the initiative to have floor-crossing scrapped, the IFP has demonstrated the crucial importance of opposition parties in a democracy.
This is a great triumph for the IFP that these Bills are being scrapped. [Applause.]
Mr J BICI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 30
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
Mr J BICI: Madam Speaker, the Bills before us mark the end of a sordid era in our young democracy's history. The UDM had, from the outset, opposed the implementation of floor-crossing in a proportional representation system since it was inherently flawed on a number of counts.
Floor-crossing tends towards chequebook politics. Floor-crossing tends towards all manner of underhanded tactics and undue rewards and enticements being offered to prospective defectors. It was also known that it introduces unnecessary instability into political systems but, most importantly, floor-crossing is widely known to be inherently insulting towards the voters who are not consulted about their electoral choice being undermined.
History has proven the UDM correct. We are glad this day has arrived, even if the harm that has been done to our democracy will take a long time to heal. At least this festering sore has been cut out and the healing can start now. [Interjections.]
Floor-crossing has introduced all reasons of political expediency.
The SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon Bici, may I assist you by asking hon members to just temper their festive mood by lowering their voices. Proceed, hon Bici.
Mr J BICI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Floor-crossing was introduced for reasons of political expediency. Now that it is being scrapped, we say, ``good riddance''. The UDM supports the Bills. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M H HOOSEN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 30
Mr J BICI
Mr M H HOOSEN: Madam Speaker, in supporting these Bills before the House, the ID is content that, finally, Parliament has listened to the voice of the electorate on the issue of floor-crossing.
The ID believes that the scrapping of floor-crossing will go a long way in restoring the credibility and value of Members of Parliament in the minds of our voters. For far too long, career politicians have gambled and bargained with the will of the people and, finally now, some dignity can be restored to our democracy. The ID maintains, however, that these amendments should be the first step in reforming the link between public representatives and the voters.
We agree with the chairperson of the portfolio committee that the time is now right to consider changes to our electoral system. In particular, the ID, since 2006, has been calling for the consideration of the implementation of the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission report. The ID believes that now is the time to give serious consideration to a mixed electoral system where elected representatives are made more accountable to the voters rather than just their political parties. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART / AKJ
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 32
Mr M H HOOSEN
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-32] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, allow me at the outset also to acknowledge our chairperson, Mr Carrim. He said that he does not like praises but way back in 2002, he might recall, that he was very frank about his views on and his stance on floor-crossing. He then stated quite categorically that the 10% threshold will undoubtedly benefit the majority party – and we have clearly seen that. We do sing your praises now for the stance that you then took. You have been vindicated.
The ACDP as well participated in the partially successful Constitutional Court challenge to the legislation that allowed floor-crossing. We therefore support these provisions that will bring an end to floor-crossing. In a proportional list system such as we have, citizens vote primarily for the party of their choice and its leader; not so much for the candidates on a party list, whom the vast majority of voters do not know. It is a cardinal principle of proportional representation systems that elected members vacate their seats when they resign from their party or lose their party membership. This system, according to the Electoral Commission, who also opposed floor-crossing, ensures that the will of the people as expressed in an election cannot be negated and substituted by the will of an individual or a group of individuals and that principle is effectively negated by floor-crossing. In our view, floor-crossing presented one of the most serious threats to our multiparty democracy. However, we cannot say that we weren't duly warned by various instances, including the Constitutional Court in a prior judgement to the judgement referred to by the Deputy Minister. It stated, and it is interesting to highlight the three issues mentioned when it upheld the anti-defection clause, contained in the interim Constitution: The anti-defection clause which disallows floor-crossing promotes accountability of members to the electorate. It obliges members of a party who are elected by virtue of the inclusion of their names on a party list, to remain loyal to that party. That meets the expectations of voters who gave their support to the party and not the individual.
Secondly, the court said that it can act as an additional check on legislators who are accountable not only to the electorate and the legislature but also to their parties; parties that are elected by virtue of their lists cannot suddenly question their party's policies and go on and frolic on their own, that is, people.
Thirdly, it is supportive of a multiparty democracy. It prevents parties in power from enticing members of small parties to defect from the party upon whose list they were elected to join the governing party. That we clearly saw. The court said that should that be permitted, it could enable the governing party to obtain a special majority which it might not otherwise be able to muster, and which is not a reflection of the views of the electorate.
So we were warned by the Constitutional Court and now we are relooking at the whole issue. Whilst the ACDP appreciates that the first window period and the floor-crossing dealt with the problem facing the DA on the local government level, clearly what the court warned about did occur. The majority party enticed various parties from opposition parties to join its ranks, resulting in a huge majority, which is clearly not a reflection of the views of the voters. We, together with other opposition parties, bore the brunt of this feed-in frenzy. Floor-crossing also contributed significantly to voter apathy with voters believing that it is useless to vote, when elected representatives can defect to another party.
It has also regrettably further engrained negative public perceptions of politicians as self-seeking opportunists with voters being outraged at political shenanigans exhibited during floor-crossing periods. For these reasons, the ACDP supports these clauses and we trust and look forward to a review of the electoral system. I thank you.
Mr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 32
Mr S N SWART
Afrikaans
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Speaker, die VF Plus verwelkom hierdie wysigings aan die Grondwet om politieke oorlopery te stop. Ons was immers van die begin af gekant teen oorlopery en het dit gesien as niks anders as politieke diefstal van die kiesers se stemme nie.
Dit is egter ironies dat die DA se spreker vanmiddag hierso, teen oorlopery kom praat. Die agb Joubert self is `n oorloper van die IVP af na die DA. En dan praat hy nogal van "revolting measures". Hy is die een wat met sy gewete moet saamleef. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die hele fiasko van oorlopery is begin deur die DA. In die 1996-grondwet is oorlopery verbied, maar dit was die DA wat die ANC oorreed het om oorlopery te magtig en selfs gestem het vir drie Grondwetwysigings om dit te kan toelaat.
Die grootste politieke onreg teenoor die kiesers van Suid-Afrika is deur die DA gepleeg met hierdie oorlopery en hulle is dit aan die kiesers verskuldig. Dit sal hulle nie help om hier aan my linkerkant te sit en brom nie.
Die VF Plus was ook gekant teen oorlopery want Suid-Afrika se jong demokrasie sou daardeur bedreig word. Die wêreldtendens was nog altyd dat dit die regerende politieke party is, wat deur oorlopery bevoordeel word. In Suid-Afrika was dit geensins anders. In die Nasionale Vergadering was dit elke keer die ANC wat die meeste oorlopers bygekry het. In 2005 het 14 van die 58% oorlopers na die ANC oorgeloop. Verlede jaar het vier uit die sewe of te wel 57% na die ANC toe oorgeloop. Die gevolg was dat die ANC se getal van 70% na amper 75% gestyg het. Dit sou `n bedreiging gewees het vir die demokrasie.
Ook op plaaslike regeringsvlak het dit in twee oorloopperiodes gebeur: In 2002 het 21 stadsrade van magsbasis verander; waarvan 20 na die ANC gegaan het. U verwys na Winston Churchill. Ek het in die erkenning van my magisterskripsie oor oorlopery die volgende aanhaling van Langenhoven: "Hoor die hoenderhaan roem: Ek het gekraai, kraai hy, dat die dag moes breek. En kyk daar breek hy." Dankie.
Mr J H JEFFERY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 32
Mr P J GROENEWALD
Mr J H JEFFERY: Madam Speaker, as previous speakers have mentioned, this issue of whether Members of Parliament should be allowed to cross the floor and keep their seats as something that has been with us since the days of the interim Constitution of 1993. As the ANC it is something that we have deliberated on for some time. There have been months of discussion in the legislature and governance subcommittee of the NEC. It is a matter discussed at our policy conference in July last year, and finally at the 52nd national conference of the ANC in Polokwane, a decision was taken that floor-crossing should be abolished.
Unlike other decisions or resolutions taken at Polokwane, we haven't been accused of undermining Parliament by coming with a pre-established position, but we are implementing with these three Bills a resolution taken at Polokwane and effectively abolishing the ability to cross the floor and keep your seat.
There are still some issues that are not resolved, as some speakers have mentioned. There is the issue of party mergers and that will not be able to take place. Things will be frozen for between election periods. If, as we had in 2004 the NNP wanted to dissolve and join the ANC, that would not happen. So those are some issues that we may want to look at and give further attention to.
I heard Mr Van der Merwe's speech. It is a pity if he really was and if the IFP was so interested in this issue, that not neither he nor any other IFP member couldn't have attended the portfolio committee hearings into these Bills or the deliberations of the portfolio committee – there was nobody there from the IFP when this issue was discussed.
The main issue that I was meant to be discussing is the question of the content of the Bills. The change to the Constitution and the amendments that we made is only one and that is a plain language one. The Bill read: "Be it enacted as follows" – and we changed that to "Parliament enacts as follows". Nobody uses those words anymore. Hopefully that won't upset the purists but that is a change that we made.
As far as the General Laws Amendment Bill, there was a provision that prevented parties from changing their names. That we did not agree with and that clause was rejected. Secondly, there were clauses dealing with the funding regime and the money given by the Electoral Commission to parties in terms of the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act. We felt having gone into that that the system was quite complicated and rather than tinker with it and make some changes here and there, the whole system needed to be reviewed and there needed to be considerable input from the political parties about the changes that should take place.
Effectively, with the General Laws Amendment Act the only change we are making is to provide for the abolition of floor-crossing. Madam Speaker, those are the changes and the Bills that are before us. The last point from my side is to say that this is an issue that parties have generally changed positions. You heard Mr Swart. At one point even the ACDP supported floor-crossing. You have heard the IFP. They have kept their position but it didn't stop them from accepting floor-crossers. They might have this principled position of how bad floor-crossing and I can't remember Mr Van der Merwe's words, if he is listening to me; but they accepted floor-crossers with open arms when they came. Similarly, fortunately the FF has covered the point about Mr Joubert's reference to the "revolting measure" from our Constitution. It was so revolting that he himself made use of it.
The Bills are before the House. We move for their adoption. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 33
Mr J H JEFFERY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-33] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members, like David of old times, I can proudly say that I was glad when they said unto me let us go to the NA to abolish all legislation on floor-crossing. Our feet are standing at this podium to say that this legislation has betrayed the electorate and enriched charlatans for the past seven years. Some parties have even gone to the lengths of recruiting during the window period, instead of such individuals using their conscience to cross.
Notwithstanding that it was conceived with noble intentions some spineless unscrupulous and soulless individuals abused it to cause havoc for personal gratification. This explains the reasons why even some parties that saw the light of day through floor-crossing didn't want to hear a thing about it.
We are looking forward to the day when the electoral system would be reviewed, even if it were to combine the first past the post and the list system as in the local government elections. I thank you.
Ms S RAJBALLY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 33
Mr I S MFUNDISI
Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the MF has in its capacity been in conflict with the Constitution in that we have been voted into these seats as representation, by a group of people that had faith in our leadership and ability to best address their needs. In no way should we have had the rights of choosing to exercise as individual mandate to crossover to any party. In all honesty, we are pleased that the terrain to entertain this floor-crossing has come to a halt.
We believe that as MPs we need to constantly exercise our powers and voice with a constant reminder of who are representing and why we are here. The MF is pleased that these Bills would be effective within all spheres of government and that floor-crossing would no longer be an option of political gain. The MF supports the Constitution 14 and 15 Amendment Bill, as well as the General Laws Amendment Bill. I thank you.
Dr S E M PHEKO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 33
Ms S RAJBALLY
Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the Constitution of a nation is sacrosanct. It is not a condom for political prostitution. The PAC supports this Bill. [Laughter.] It is a shame that a Parliament which calls itself a People's Parliament ever enacted a law such as floor-crossing. This law is the classical distortion of democracy.
The votes and mandate of voters given to political parties in this House have been violated with impunity. The window of opportunism has been mischievously and misleadingly called the window of opportunity. An opportunity for who? For the voters or for those who contaminate and manipulate the vote of the voters?
The abolition of this political form of vote rigging and kleptocracy deserves its ignominious ending. Floor-crossing has affected service-delivery. Time has been spent lobbying and campaigning for floor-crossing. Let us hope that with this floor-crossing today being buried, liberatory democracy will be emerging and is going to give the citizens of our country, the basic necessities of life, such as employment, education, decent housing, affordable healthcare, land and is going to liberate them from poverty. Izwelethu! [Our land] [Interjections.]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 33
Dr S E M PHEKO
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Madam Speaker, on 11 June 2002 when Parliament debated the Constitution of South Africa Amendment Bill, Azapo did not support amendments then, because they were legalising crossing of the floor as we have experienced it.
As a matter of principle, Azapo did not even accept anyone who wanted to cross to its ranks. [Laughter.] For this reason, Azapo was labelled unrealistic, but we knew that the day will come, when we would be singing from the same hymn book. That day is today. I would like to give thanks to the electorates of South Africa.
The amendments we are considering today are good for our democracy. They strengthen what is generally referred to as the legitimate expression of our people. We are saluting the electorate for being vigilant and are saying to them that should remain vigilant because there are many things to defend in the future. I thank you.
Mr L M GREEN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 33
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the FT supports the dissolution of this law, despite having been a beneficiary of floor-crossing which was done as a principal stand against undemocratic practices and an autocratic party leader. Scrapping the law on floor-crossing to effect positively on political parties must combine with changes to the PR system, as recommended by Van Zyl Slabbert. [Interjections.]
In the absence of constituency accountability, political party elegancies rooted-in the cultic dominance of the leader. In practice, the party developed patronage politics that rewarded positions to those loyal to the leader at the cost of institutional democracy such as the current state in which most of our political parties found themselves.
What needs to be put in place as a substitute to floor-crossing, and in absence of a constituency system is a law that requires all political parties to have a Constitution which guaranties internal party democracy and limits the chances of a leader to gain unfitted centralised powers. I thank you.
Mr G B MAGWANISHE / TM
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 34
Mr L M GREEN"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Aug 2008,"Take-34[National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-34] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr G B MAGWANISHE: Hon Speaker, hon members, the ANC Deputy President and the Chief Whip of the majority party, I think we are happy that we have a lot of cadres today who are prepared to implement the ANC conference resolutions. ANC conferences have always been the foundation for the development of our democracy. When we go to ANC conferences we do not only carry the mandate of our branches, but also the aspirations of the people of South Africa, people of Africa and the people of the world.
Conferences of the ANC have not only contributed to policy development but also to the practice and the theory of knowledge. Many dissertations and theses have been submitted to institutions of higher learning citing conferences of the ANC as part of literature review.
It is through ANC resolutions that we have institutions like the Constitutional Court, Chapter 9 institutions, and many other government programmes. It is the ANC that first declared that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and no government can just claim authority unless it is based on the will of the people. That was said at the time when some of the people in this House believed that South Africa was a white man's country.
The Polokwane Conference was a special conference like all other ANC conferences. This conference was not about the dissolution of the
Directorate of Special Operations but about the transformation of the state, deepening of democracy, economic transformation, better Africa and the better world, social transformation, Reconstruction and Development Programme of the soul and many others.
There seems to be a mischievous view that suggests that because the ANC has passed a resolution that some do not like, therefore it does not have the right to do so. It is puzzling that resolutions from the same conference attract such strong opposite reactions. It is also puzzling that when the ANC conference passes a resolution that some agree with then everything is fine, but when the ANC conference passes a resolution that they do not agree with, the same people question the bona fide of the organisation and the conference itself.
The three Bills before us are a direct product of the Polokwane Conference. At this conference the ANC said:
Because of our divided political history, many public representatives had a false understanding of political organisations to which they had not been exposed but after interacting with members of these organisations, realised that they stood for similar principles as they did and therefore wanted to join them. As a result of political dynamics at the time, the ANC agreed in 2001 that floor-crossing should be provided for to allow public representatives who had changed their minds about the party of which they were a member to join another party.
Since the floor-crossing legislation came into effect in 2002, a number of difficulties and unforeseen consequences with the implementation of the legislation have emerged. The political terrain which necessitated floor-crossing has changed. Therefore, we resolved that floor-crossing should be abolished and that public representatives of other political parties should be encouraged to join the ANC regardless of whether or not they retain their seats.
Despite the fact that the ANC benefited far more than any other party in the process, when it realised that there were problems with the system it gave leadership as expected. Opposition parties should thank the ANC for its generosity and for saving them from extinction. This shows our commitment to multiparty democracy. We are committed to work with everybody in building a national democratic society.
Let me also mention that we always got more than two thirds of the votes in national elections not through floor-crossing. Azapo did not get anybody because nobody wanted to go to them. Everybody wanted to come to us that is why we were able to receive people. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 34
Mr G B MAGWANISHE
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, hon members and Ministers, I must say that today we witnessed one of the greatest shows of lack of intellectual honesty and integrity. I think this could have been a great day for our Parliament. At a certain time in our history we had to experiment with something called floor-crossing. We all know what the reasons were. Instead of those parties that actually initiated and voted for it; those individuals that crossed the floor; and those that accepted people that crossed the floor coming up here and admitting to have made a mistake, we get some of the people that moralise about the issue.
It is a very sad indictment. Mr Joubert comes and tells us that this is one of the most revolting piece of legislation that Parliament has ever passed. But he was a member of the IFP. He was sitting on those benches there and he jumped ship and sat there, and now he comes and moralises to us about the evils of floor-crossing!
I did not know when I was reading L K Joubert here that I was actually reading his dissertation. I didn't know it! I should have immediately recognised him by the quote from Churchill. I should have recognised him when it said "some men change their party for the sake of their principles others change their principles for the sake of the party." That was him! I should have recognised him. [Applause.]
I think we should be very careful. If you want us to take you seriously - any individual – you want us to intellectually engage you, then you must be honest! You can't stand here and cross the floor and want to moralise us.
My old friend Koos - I have to get a little stab in here, you know. I mean he moralises also about floor-crossing and he is correct. Since he has been an IFP he hasn't done naughty things, but there was a time in his history that he elevated floor-crossing to fine-tune it very very carefully. When we sat out there fighting you and your white parliament, it looked like political ping pongs were going on here. It looked like you people were jumping around from racist and one conservative party to the other.
On a lighter note Koos, we shouldn't moralise too much in case our skeletons come back and catch us. [Laughter.]
I do think that we should also say to the nation that although there was a necessity to deal with this issue of floor-crossing, it also showed the worst in us as South Africans. There can be no doubt that what was happening with the floor-crossing in some instances was just disgraceful, particularly at local government level where people literally jumped for positions and for money and changed governments. I think what we should do as South Africans today, and we should do it with one voice, is that this thing is now in our past, whatever we did we will not repeat and we will clearly not try to emulate and do the kind of things that are dastardly and sometimes totally morally unacceptable; things that we did when floor-crossing was part of it. Thank you for the support from everyone, and we hope that this puts the whole thing to bed at last. [Applause.]
THE SPEAKER / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 35
THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-35] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
BREAK FOR FIVE MINUTES
The SPEAKER: Order! That concludes the debate. Are there any objections to the Bill being read a second time?
Agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Constitution fourteenth Amendment Bill
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 35
General Laws (Loss of membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill
Constitution fourteenth amendment bill
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
[Take in from Minutes.]
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Question agreed to in terms of section 74(3) of the Constitution.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 35
Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill
Constitution fifteenth amendment bill
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
[Take in from Minutes.]
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Question agreed to in terms of section 74(3) of the Constitution.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
Reform of Customary Law of Succession and Regulation of Related Matters Bill
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 35
Constitution Fifteenth Amendment bill
Reform of customary law of succession and regulation of related matters bill
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
There was no debate.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move:
[Take in from Minutes]
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT... / ///tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 36
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority PARTY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,01 Sep 2008,"Take 36 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-36] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
REFORM OF CUSTOMARY LAW OF SUCCESSION AND REGULATION OF RELATED MATTERS BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, comrades and friends, ladies and gentlemen, the Bill I talk to is a very important piece of legislation. It is hugely transformational as it touches on the lives of thousands of people, young and old.
This Bill is the product of the investigation by the SA Law Reform Commission into the customary law of succession. It introduces fundamental changes to the customary law of succession in that it aims to abolish the customary rule of primo geniturein so far as it applies to the law of succession and to bring it in line with the Constitution.
The customary rule of primo geniture which is pivotal to the customary law of succession, means that when the head of a family, normally a man, dies, the eldest son inherits his estate. If he does not have a son, his father inherits the estate and in the case where his father predeceased him, any close male relative inherits his estate.
The practice disqualifies widows from inheriting interstate estates of their spouses. It also disqualifies sons who are not the eldest, daughters and extramarital children from benefiting from the interstate estate of their fathers. Extramarital children only qualify to inherit from the interstate estate of their mother after intramarital children and other close male members of the family have inherited.
The custom, in a sense, does exclude women and, therefore, discriminates. Clearly, this principle is in conflict with the Bill of Rights. The recommendations of the SA Law Reform Commission regarding the incompatibility of the customary law of succession with the Bill of Rights were confirmed in the Bhe case by the Constitutional Court.
This Bill will achieve equality for the most marginalised in our society, particularly women and children. I must say that I was very pleased to learn that there had been extensive consultations organised by the law commission.
I won't go through the sections as other members will talk to those sections, save to indicate that those that I will mention I think are themselves materially transformational.
Clause 2(1) extends the application of the Interstate Succession Act of 1987 to deceased estates of Africans who die interstate. Previously, these estates were dealt with in terms of the repealed Black Administration Act of 1927.
Clause 2(2) deals with how the Interstate Succession Act of 1987 must be applied in the case of the different supporting marital unions which occur in customary law. Some of these unions are entered into by or on behalf of males, while some are entered into by women for the purpose of providing children or increasing the offspring of the deceased.
Clause 2 is, therefore, intended to come to the relief of women who have entered into such unions with men or with other women for the purpose of providing children. It recognises them as descendents for purposes of the application of the Interstate Succession Act.
Clause 3 provides guidelines on how the Interstates Succession Act is to be interpreted in order to give effect to the provisions of this Bill. For example, reference to a spouse in the Interstate Succession Act will be interpreted as including every spouse and every woman of any ancillary union referred to in clause 2. The method of calculating the child's portion is also provided for in the clause.
The Bill also introduces another change by providing, in clause 4, for the property accruing to a woman or a woman who has a house under customary law by virtue of her customary marriage to devolve in terms of a will of such a woman.
Should such a woman die without a will, her property will devolve in terms of the Interstate Succession Act of 1987. When such a woman refers to a child in her will or where any reference in section 1 of the Interstate Succession Act is made to a descendant in a case where a woman dies without a will, these words will be interpreted to include any child born out of any supporting union entered into in terms of customary law for the purpose of providing children for such a woman.
Section 5 is equally very important as section 6, which excludes succession to property held by traditional leader in his or her official capacity, on behalf of a traditional community from the application of this particular Act. However, the essence in all these clauses is really to capacitate such women in a manner that allows them to inherit and their offsprings not to be prejudiced.
Let me conclude by congratulating the portfolio committee. Of course, the chairperson of the portfolio committee deserves to be commended for his sterling leadership of the committee. I also thank the officials in my department, who are always available to assist.
I can't falter and not mention the Deputy Minister.
We have a massive campaign called Operation Sesifikile, with the Office of the Master of the High Court. This is really an outreach programme extending education to the millions of widows many of whom need assistance as persons to inherit under this particular succession regime.
I wish you to support, as Members of Parliament, a campaign of access to justice that we have embarked on, working with the SA Women's Lawyers Association. Assisting the poorest of the poor in this area of interstate succession is a priority in this particular campaign. I thank you.
Ms N M MAHLAWE / GC/MC
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 37
THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTITONAL DEVELOPMENT
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-37] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Ms N M MAHLAWE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President of the ANC, hon Members of this House, allow me first on behalf of women in this House and women of this country, and during this women's month to congratulate the hon member of this House, Kgoshi Tinyiko Phillia Nwamita Shilubana Viva Her Royal Highness against legally entrenched customary practises which deprived her and others of their rights and dignity for years. We say her victory is for all women, and it is for the nation. The victory for the nation is a victory against all injustices.
We would say as women, you strike a woman you strike a rock. I won't say you would die. It is not in my norm. I want to also say that lower courts should take cognisance of the fact that cases on issues of customary law relating to women are always upheld by the Constitutional Court, a very expensive exercise for women. Many cannot afford. We say to the magistrates of lower courts now is the time for you to take women seriously.
The Bill before us: the Reform of Customary Law of Succession and regulation of Related Matters Bill seeks to provide for matters of succession in respect of the different types of family structures that exist within customary law in respect of women and children who have been excluded from protection by law. For an example in terms of Interstate Succession Act No 81 of 1987 children born out of unions did not qualify to inherit from interstate estates of their fathers. This Bill is correcting this situation.
The same Act of 1987 Clause two sub-section one, provides that deceased estates of Africans who died interstate could be dealt with in terms of the repealed Black Administration Act of 1927. This is being addressed in the Bill so that the varieties of supporting marital unions in customary law are dealt with. This Bill seeks to abolish the customary rule of male primogeniture as far as it applies to the law of succession. The Minister has referred to this extensively so that it is in line with the spirit and current notions of equality and human dignity. This is what we seek for all women of this country.
The Bill gives effect to the judgements of the Constitutional Court on matters relating to customary issues. I have just said that most cases related to customary law have been upheld by the Constitutional Court only. In both the cases of Bare and others versus the magistrate of Khayelitsha and also that of Shibi versus Sithole et al the Constitutional Court declared the principle of male primogeniture incompatible with the Bill of Rights. The hon Sibanyoni will speak on these two cases.
The committee had to make some amendments and proposals on key issues not addressed by the Bill, for instance the word 'traditional' had to be deleted from the definition of customary law as the Constitutional Court also had observed in the case of Shilubana that to define customary law as something traditional observed ignores the contemporary practise of a community. The Bill provides that property accruing to a woman or her house under customary law should by virtue of her customary marriage devolve in terms of a will. If she dies without a will her property will devolve in terms of the Succession Act of 1987.
The interpretation of the Interstate Succession Act in order to give effect to provisions of the Bill is provided for in clause three. Madam Speaker, I shall leave the rest of these provisions to hon Sibanyoni, but would like to say this Bill has gone a long way to address numerous problems faced by women in customary unions or marriages. I would like to reiterate the words of the Pan African Conference held in Kenya that the waiting for women must end. We are determined to see a translation of the rhetoric policy and legal framework into practice. So, let it be. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L K JOUBERT /Zc/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Ms N M MAHLAWE
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Mr L K JOUBERT: Chairperson, hon members, every lawyer who has practised in the rural areas of our country would agree that this Bill is long overdue. In view of the changes in social circumstances that developed during the past fifty years or so, it has become necessary to modify the customary law of succession to provide adequately for the welfare of all family members, especially widows. We lawyers tried to circumvent the unfair working of the customary law by advising clients to make wills since the customary law only applied to intestate deceased estates. This of course did not help the hundreds of thousands of those that did not have access to legal advice.
The way in which the system worked until the Constitutional Court ruled the customary law on this point unconstitutional, was that if a black South African dies leaving no valid will, his estate had to be administered in terms of the Black Administration Act of 1927. In terms of the Black Administration Act, which applied customary law, the first born male was the sole heir of an intestate estate. This made sense in a culture where the first born male heir took over the responsibilities of the deceased. However, with the social changes that occurred over time the social responsibility of the first born male heir became blurred and it became the norm rather than the
exception that the heir accepted the assets of the estate without at the same time accepting the responsibilities that went with the assets.
The case of Bhe and Others v The Magistrate of Khayelitsha and Others illustrates this point. Mr and Mrs Bhe were married in terms of customary law and had two minor children born out of the relationship. Mr Bhe acquired an immovable property in Khayelitsha which became the family's home. Mr Bhe died without a will and his brother claimed that he was the intestate heir to the property, which was the position under customary law. However, under customary law the heir, in this case Mr Bhe's brother was supposed to inherit the assets together with the liabilities and he was expected to use the assets for the support of the deceased's liabilities. Because of the breakdown of the customary system, male heirs took the assets of their brother's estates without accepting the corresponding liabilities, with the result that widows and children suffered.
I can entertain you with many examples of how we endeavoured to enter into protracted settlement situations just to secure a widow her rights to the place she considered her home, all at a great cost.
However, these defects have now been removed and I sincerely hope that we have at the same time removed the colour of a deceased estate, as well.
We welcome this piece of legislation, it is just sad that we had to be prompted by the judiciary to enact it and even then that it took us five years. We should really be more sensitive to the needs of our people. I thank you.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 38
Mr L K JOUBERT
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, the IFP supports this Bill.
The purpose of the Bill has been explained by others and don't intent to repeat what they have said. The Bill is in line with the decision by the Constitutional Court in 2003 to reform the law of succession in order to bring it in line with the Constitution.
It amends customary law and emanates from a report of the SA Law Reform Commission. A discussion paper was widely distributed and elicited comments from a variety of interested parties, including prominent non-governmental and community based organisations concerned with gender issues and customary law. A series of workshops were held, in addition, they were attended by, amongst others, by traditional leaders in all the provinces.
It would appear that a very comprehensive and extensive consultation process was followed and that the Bill enjoys general support.
The IFP supports.
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 38
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP would support this Bill as it seeks to address certain deficiencies that presently exist in our customary law of intestate succession, as it has been pointed out.
A widow in a customary marriage whose husband dies intestate, that is, without a will, does not enjoy adequate protection and benefits under the existing customary law of succession. This also applies in certain cases to children. Stories abound of women and children being deprived of inheritances and being put out of the family houses where they have been excluded from the protection of the law. Clearly these hardships needed to be addressed, and that is what is been achieved by this Bill.
This Bill seeks to do this by abolishing the customary rule of male primogeniture, a very strange word that obviously means the first born. It does this as the general rule would apply that it was only a male who is related to the deceased qualifies as an intestate heir, that is, where there is no will. Women do not participate at all and in certain cases as it was indicated, children are also excluded. In a monogamous family, the eldest son of the
family head is the heir to the exclusion of all others in intestate succession. Clearly, this is a unacceptable state of affairs which was addressed first in the Constitutional Court case of Bhe vs the Magistrate of Khayelitsha and Others 49/03, where it is interesting that the court stated that "the exclusion of women from heirship and consequently from being able to inherit property was in keeping with a system dominated by a deeply embedded patriarchy which reserved for women a position of subservience and subordination and in which they were regarded as perpetual minors under the tutelage of the fathers, husbands, or the head of the extended family." Clearly that is the issue that was addressed.
The ACDP supports this Bill. We do also however share the concerns expressed in the report, which related to the capacity of the Master's Office to deal with the additional customary law estates and we believe that this is an issue they proved and the portfolio committee would have to monitor and would be participating in that process. I thank you.
Ms S RAJBALLY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 38
Mr S N SWART
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, this Bill is pivotal to the laws of succession to customary marriages and the liberation of rights of
women who are in this type of marriage.
We are most pleased at the effect of equality established between customary and civil marriages in the case of death.
It was definite that in earlier times when customary marriages were dissolved by civil marriage, many women, especially poor rural women have been compromised.
We are therefore extremely pleased and are hoping that this consideration may be extended to all religion marriages.
In many instances society has changed and many women have to fend for themselves. It is for this reason that we need to empower widows and secure their inheritance at a time when they need it most.
The MF supports the Reform of Customary law of Succession and Regulation of Related Matters Bill. I thank you.
Mr J B SIBANYONI / END OF TAKE/ARM
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 39
Ms S RAJBALLY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-39] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
IsiNdebele:
Mr J B SIBANYONI: Sihlalo, ngilotjhise kuboNgqongqotjhe namaSekela wabo begodu nakiwo woke amalunga ahloniphekileko wePalamende. Ikulumopikiswano yanamhlanjesi siyenza nje, kuyinyanga yabomma, inyanga kaRhoboyi, kuyinyanga la iPalamende yaboMma inomhlangano elangeni lesibili. Kandi-ke bahlangana nje sekumnyaka wesine selokhu bahlangana njalo. Malibongwe Igama Lamakhosikazi, Malibongwe!
Umnqopho walomThethomlingwa selebawukhulumile abanye abakhulume ngaphambi kwami, ngalokho-ke angekhe ngawubuyelela. Begodu malungana nemilandu eyakhulunywa yiKhotho yomThethosisekelo weSewula Afrika, imilandu yakaBhe noShibi, njengombana iLunga elihloniphekileko umma Mahlawe bekade athi ngizakukhuluma ngawo, angeze ngisabuyelela ngombana iLunga elihloniphekileko begodu nomnganami ofundileko Umnumzana Swart sele akhulumile ngawo. Engifuna ukukutjho ngilokhu:
English
The Bill provides that the estate of a person, subject to a customary law, who dies intestate, must devolve in accordance with the law of intestate succession as regulated by the Intestate Succession Act subject to the following:
Firstly, a spouse in a customary marriage will inherit a child's portion of the estate or an amount that does not exceed that set by the Cabinet member responsible for the administration of justice in the Gazette.
Secondly, the variety of supporting marital unions in a customary law accommodated. Recognition is given to a woman who has entered into a union with a man for the purpose of raising children and to ancillary unions entered into by a woman with another woman for the purpose of providing children to the deceased's house to ensure that the women concerned are regarded as descendants.IsiNdebele :
Ukwahlukanisa namkha ukwabiwa kwepahla yomuntu ohlongakeleko ngokulandela umthetho namasiko wesikhethu, kulandela umuntu wembaji, umsana olizibulo nguye obayindlalifa. Lokhu kade kukhethulula umma, kukhethulule godu nabantwana babantazana namkha babadala kunezibulo lomsana.
English
When I was studying law at the then University of Zululand, our lecture wrote something like this in his Notes on Zulu Law. It was about the status of a woman under Zulu Law:
A woman is a perpetual minor. Before marriage she belongs to her father. During marriage she belongs to her husband. After marriage she reverts to her father, if he is still alive and if he is deceased, she falls under the authority of her eldest son.
That was the position under the Black Administration Act. I remember this very well because during those times lecturers didn't like it when students tried to exercise their minds. Once you start answering an assignment by saying ``I think'', the lecturer would draw a red line and next to that he would write ``Don't think. Give me back my notes''. That's why I still remember the notes by the lecturer.
IsiNdebele :
Ekuthomeni umnqopho womthetho wesikhethu wamafa kwakukuvikela umndeni nomphakathi emsebenzini obudisi wokutlhogomela umma okhanjelwe yindoda kunye nabantwana bakhe. Umthetho wamafa khabe kungasikuhlukanisa ipahla kamufi kodwana khabe kukutlhogomela umuzi kamufi nokuthi ibizo lakhe liragele phambili. Khabe kukghonakala ngokuthi kube nomuntu ozokutlhogomela umndeni kamufi nepahla yakhe. Abafelokazi bayabonelelwa lokha nabasala ekhayapha nakangakabuyeli ekhabo namkha ayokwenda engcenye. Kungalokho-ke ngesikhethu kunesiko lokuphakela. Eminye imihlobo yabantu ikhuluma ngokungena abanye bathi kuvusa, kukhona godu nabathi lisiko lokuzalela. Amasiko la asesekhona emthethweni akatjhayisani nomThethosisekelo.
English
The Bill notes the following, which I want to quote:
A widow in a customary marriage whose husband dies intestate does not enjoy adequate protection and benefit under the customary law of succession; certain children born out of customary marriage do not enjoy adequate protection under customary law; section 9 of the Constitution provides that everyone has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law; social circumstances have so changed that the customary law of succession no longer provides adequately for the welfare of family members; and that the Constitutional Court has declared that the principle of male primogeniture, as applied in the customary law of succession, cannot be reconciled with the current notions of equality and human dignity as contained in the Bill of Rights.
The application of the official customary law of rules of succession in circumstances vastly different from their traditional setting causes much hardship.
Because patriarchal oppression was embedded in the economic, social, religious, cultural, family and other relations in all communities, its eradication cannot be an assumed consequence of democracy. All manifestations and consequences of patriarchy - from the feminisation of poverty, physical and psychological abuse, undermining of self-confidence, to open hidden forms of exclusion from positions of authority and power – need to be eliminated. The state is one of the pillars of the NDR and thus it should be used to win the war against discrimination of persons on the basis of their gender.
The ANC supports this Bill.
Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 39
Mr J B SIBANYONI
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I thank all the members who participated in this debate. This indeed will largely benefit our people and we accede therefore to our mandate of transforming of our society for the better.
On the matter of the Masters, we will, as we usually do, consider the report and we will take advice as provided in the report. Safe to say after there it was inevitable for us to increase capacity at the Masters. But of course the Masters is also part of our focus of transformation in the sense that we need to modernize that, and we are doing so, and we need to professionalise the services there. I must say that many friends from all provinces will have noticed that we even have set up mobile offices for the Master.
So, once more I invite you to join us in partnership as we increase the frontiers of access to justice for all our people. This week, SAWULA, the SA Women Lawyers Association, in partnership with the Department of Justice are on the airwaves everywhere providing information, knowledge, extending actual services to our people – all services they need including the campaign of imparting information about the law of succession, about the rights of women in succession.
Thank you. {Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT /Mme/VM(NDE) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 40
THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-40] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
NATIONAL HOUSE OF TRADITIONAL LEADERS BILL, NO. 56 OF 2008 AND THE TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNANCE AMENDMENT BILL NO. 57 OF 2008
(Second Reading debates)
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, members of Parliament, Chairperson and members of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, chairperson and members of the national house of traditional leaders, ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to address this House after our last interaction when we presented the Budget Vote of the Department of Provincial and Local Government.
We are meeting today to debate the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill No 56 of 2008 and Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill No 57 of 2008. I would like to thank the National House of Traditional Leaders, the provincial houses of traditional leaders, all the organs of civil society and the general public for the contributions made during the process of finalising the two Bills we are presenting today. Their contributions have indeed enriched and shaped the final product being presented today.
Our government believes that governance based on traditional leadership institutions is in fact the backdrop of democracy in Africa in general and in a democratic South Africa in particular.
In this regard, we have put a constitutional and legal framework that ensures that traditional leadership functions in a manner that embraces democracy and contributes to the entrenchment of a democratic culture thus enhancing its own status and standing among the people.
The implementation of the new legal framework on traditional leadership in the last 14 years has seen the evolution of the institution, promotion of gender representation, democratisation of the structures of traditional leadership and the improved involvement of traditional leadership in development and service delivery.
In all these endeavours, government has been working with traditional leaders. During the long-drawn period of negotiations for a democratic South Africa, the ANC fought very hard and long for the inclusion of chapter 12 in the Constitution, thereby giving constitutional recognition to the institution of traditional leadership.
This process was driven by a number of objectives, including paying a tribute to the role the institution played in the formation of the ANC as a revolutionary movement fighting for the rights of the oppressed masses of our people; and to acknowledge that the institution has a critical role to play in the new dispensation, especially with respect to rural communities. To this effect, you will recall that Cabinet approved the White Paper on Traditional Leadership and Governance in 2003.
The Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act was subsequently enacted in the same year. Provinces followed suit with the complementary provincial legislation. The implementation of these pieces of legislation in the last three years has revealed a need for further refinement of the legislative framework to further deepen and improve the role of the institution in service delivery and development within traditional communities.
According to the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill No. 56 of 2008, is concerned, chapter 12 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 provides that national and provincial legislation must provide for the establishment of houses of traditional leaders. Since 1994, the National House of Traditional Leaders and provincial houses of traditional leaders have been established through the relevant national and provincial legislation.
The National Council of Traditional Leaders Act was passed in 1994, in line with the 1993 interim Constitution. This Act was repealed in 1997 and replaced by the Council of Traditional Leaders Act in 1997.
The 1997 Act was further amended through the Council of Traditional Leaders Amendment Act of 1998 and again through the National House of Traditional Leaders Amendment Act, in 2000.
In an attempt to improve the functionality and broaden the scope of the work for the National House, the Bill before us today provides for the following key issues in line with the Constitution, the White Paper and the Framework Act: The continued existence of the National House of Traditional Leaders with added responsibilities;
the composition of the National House to be representative of all provinces including the provinces that have recently acquired traditional communities after the re-determination of provincial boundaries;
to streamline the process of electing members of the National House in the provinces; to determine powers and duties of the National House in line with the White Paper on Traditional Leadership and Governance; to enhance the effective functioning, management and administration of the National House; to make provision for support to the House by government in respect of administration, finances, capacity building and resources; for the relationship between the national House and the provincial houses; for the relationship between the National House and kings and queens; and
to make provision for the relationship between the National House and Government.
It is therefore clear that the Bill provides for the continued existence of the National House of Traditional Leaders with added responsibilities which are going to enable it to function more effectively. It would also offer the House an opportunity to develop into a stronger organisation, working in partnership with other structures of traditional leadership, which would continue with its important and primary task of promoting the interests of traditional communities in our country.
Indeed, we have seen the House develop to what it is today. The finalisation of this Bill thus marks another important milestone for the House. Government stands ready to work with the House in a cooperative spirit for the betterment of the lives of traditional communities.
As far as the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill No. 57 of 2008 is concerned, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act No. 41 of 2003 was passed in December 2003 and came into operation in September 2004. The implementation of the Act at national and provincial spheres has necessitated that certain improvements be effected to the Act.
The Bill therefore provides for the following amendments:
Recognition of kingships or queenships and the withdrawal of such recognition; disestablishment of paramouncies and the withdrawal of recognition of paramount chiefs; establishment of kingship or queenship councils and the determination of their functions;
the determination of the membership of traditional councils and kingship or queenship councils by Premiers and the Minister respectively in line with provincial peculiarities;
establishment of a traditional sub-council where the area of jurisdiction of a traditional community occupies two or more geographical areas apart from each other; extension of the original one year to five years the period within which the traditional authorities must be transformed in line with the Act; and the alignment of the terms of office of all the structures within the institution of traditional leadership with the term of office of the National House of Traditional Leaders.
Therefore, these amendments are intended to ensure that all the structures within the institution are established and that the institution functions more effectively. It is hoped that this endeavour by government will help restore the dignity of the institution and enable it to play its role in service delivery and development in partnership with government. Therefore, once passed, the Bill would further enable traditional leaders to constitute part of the cadre of leadership that is leading in transforming South Africa towards a better life for all.
In addition to the two Bills, government is committed to working and supporting the institution of traditional leadership as is demonstrated through the development of the government-wide national programme of support for traditional leadership, the establishment of a dedicated National Department for Traditional Leadership and other initiatives.
I would like to emphasize that it is the vision of government therefore to continue to transform and support the institution of traditional leadership in accordance with the constitutional principles of democracy and equality, and that it might play its meaningful role in the development and service delivery to the rural communities of our country.
In closing, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the members of the portfolio committee for the efficient manner in which they dealt with these two Bills. I thank you.
Mr S L TSENOLI.../TM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 41
THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-41] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr S L TSENOLI: Chairperson, hon members, and guests, the January 8th Statement of the ANC observed that this year will see anniversaries of events in our past that had helped determine the cause of our struggle, and defined the kind of society we are building today. And one of those is the 25th anniversary of the formation of the United Democratic Front, a critical moment in the deepening of internal resistance and mobilisation that contributed to the collapse of the apartheid system.
That day is today. Twenty five years ago, we travelled across the length and breadth of the country to cram into the Rocklands civic centre in Mitchells Plain to launch this dynamic powerful movement, that effectively dictated the text of the famous speech read from this podium on 2 February 1990 by one FW De Klerk. The UDF - united apartheid divided we declared. In saying so, we were continuing the congress tradition of uniting people, of working with them in their diversity and working with them across many things that separated them to pursue a common South Africa, as envisaged in the Freedom Charter.
Today, the Bills that we present before the House continue the task of addressing that national grievance of apartheid - that apartheid vested upon us - and restoring the dignity of the institution of traditional governance and transforming it, so that these institution themselves comply with the Constitution and the White Paper Policy Framework agreed to by traditional leaders themselves and other key role-players.
We repeal some of the provisions of the legislation - the passed ones - and ensure the continued existence of the houses of traditional leaders. We also make provision for the alignment of these across the national, provincial and local houses in their design, composition and transformation agenda. The houses pursue unity and asture fragmentation even as they are flexible enough to allow for different tradition and customs to prevail.
We have satisfied ourselves in the committee that relatively adequate consultation occurred, and that some of the contentious issues and pressing expectations of traditional leaders will be dealt with in the ongoing work to set up a department, as the President called for in the state of the national address and in further consultations going forward.
For us to say that we were satisfied that relative consultation took place, we mean that the department itself, in our interrogation of the work they did, showed us and we corroborated this with actors who were involved in these briefing sessions that the national houses, the provincial houses and many stakeholders were invited to sessions during which the proposed Bills were given to them.
We are aware that some of the key stakeholders felt dissatisfied with some of the provisions, but in the nature of democracy and in the nature of seeking to find the best way across a complex arena, it is expected that there will be differences. Our approach in accepting these Bills, we were persuaded by the necessity to, firstly, let them comply with constitutional provisions but also with the White Paper Policy Framework that was recently adopted. It was necessary, therefore, to repeal the old legislation so that it is consistent, as we said earlier, with the policy conference.
The significance of this move in these two Bills is that not only does it bring up cross this alignment and better co-ordination and accountability with my colleagues will speak on, but it also provides for continued work to make for deep interaction between the traditional leadership institutes themselves with the community they lead. We hope this work will be addressed in policy development going forward. We are aware that in some of the issues, for example, the code of conduct, the traditional leaders and the House felt that they should have been given an opportunity to develop their own but, which would have taken time.
What we have accepted, as the recommendation, is that based on the framework that already has been accepted, we should proceed with the one that is in the Bills that are provided here, so that future development of any adjustment must be based, obviously, on the Policy Framework as well as the Constitution. We hope this will be accepted in that spirit that we recognise work in progress. For us, in the committee, the work to rid our country of poverty, the work to transform all institutions to be deeply engaged in this process is what informs and inspires us to work in the way in which we did in this Bill, because we recognise the significant role that the traditional leaders play in their communities to mobilise and interact with government at local provincial and national level, to ensure that we hit poverty where it needs to be hit, so that there is very little of it left when we are finished
The role of the house of traditional leaders, as transformed in the proposed legislation and in the frameworks with their agreement, is the work that must mean our complement in them. The past colonial and apartheid government played dirty games on these institutions. It is our task working with them to rid it of those problems and have it held in the dignity that it deserves as part of our African Renaissance agenda. I thank you. [Applause]
Mr M M SWATHE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 41
Mr S L TSENOLI
Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, the DA welcomes the introduction of these two Bills. These two Bills are a watershed in the reforming of the role of traditional leadership within the democratic dispensation. We support the objective of both Bills to improve the capacity of the house of traditional leaders to make them more effective in addressing the challenges facing the traditional authorities throughout the country. We hope these pieces of legislation will strengthen the smooth working relationship between the national House, provincial house and the government.
One of the major challenges facing traditional authorities within our democratic order is the issue of the key gaps resulting in a legal vacuum with regards to accountability, powers and functions indicated in the Bills. The DA acknowledges that traditional leaders are central to protecting our heritage and consolidating our constitutional democracy. Previous legislative regimes have often treated traditional authorities as an island from our democracy.
As a result, there have been unnecessary confusion between traditional leaders and democratically elected leaders, such as councillors. The lack of synergy emanating from some traditional leaders and councillors has undermined the interest of the public, as leaders grapple for authority. We hope that these Bills will strengthen relations between these role-players to serve the interests of the people.
We also welcome the fact that there will be a code of conduct to guide traditional authorities in conducting their affairs. There is clearly a need to ensure that traditional authorities have to be more transparent and involve people in their core activities. The introduction of kingships or queenships council will also improve the capacity of traditional leader's accountability.
We argue that the two full-time members will be sufficient to execute the duties of the house, and will allow another member to pay attention to matters in the communities, which remains the most important duties of traditional leader. I want to stress that the role and functions of the house, as contained in the Bills, are in line with the Constitution. Adherence to it will promote the role of traditional leadership within our democratic constitutional dispensation.
The committee strengthens the clause on the role of the house by inserting that the house must promote, and I quote:
The transformation and adaptation of customary law and custom so as to comply with the provision with of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, in particular by preventing unfair discrimination promoting equality and seeking to progressively advance gender representation in the succession of traditional leadership positions.
This is a clear challenge in the Bill. With regard to the Traditional Leadership Framework Bill, we are satisfied with the manner in which the Bill seeks to clarify the role of kingships and queenships. The recognition established of kingship and queenship council will certainly go a long way in strengthening the capacity of traditional authorities to fulfil their mandates.
Clause 4A (3) states that, I quote: "A kingship or queenship council in its resources may not be used to promote or prejudice the interest of any political party" is of specific importance if traditional leadership is to prosper. Traditional authorities must not be used as political tools to advantage or disadvantage political parties. This is a daunting challenge which traditional leaders have to overcome, particularly in the run up to the general elections.
Finally, the DA wants to caution that the budget will have to be kept in check for the fiscal to afford it. We hope that the Bill will make traditional leadership to be more compatible with the country's constitutional democratic values. Thank you very much.
Mr M J BHENGU / GG
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 42
Mr M M SWATHE
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-42] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr M J BHENGU: Thank you, Chairperson. These two Bills are the last chapter in a continuous stream of broken promises aimed at disintegrating the institution of traditional leadership, whilst pretending to protect and recognise it. Our entire constitutional sentiment was predicated inter alia on the premise that the powers and functions of traditional leadership would be protected, and that the provincial constitution alone would provide for the monarchy of KwaZulu-Natal and its kingdom. The people of KwaZulu came together through their elected representatives on 16 March and unanimously adopted a provincial constitution, which, with many built-in compromises, which nonetheless made full provision for the monarchy of KwaZulu-Natal. All this has been disintegrated by these two Bills which now impose a uniformed system across the country which is foreign and inimical to the traditions, history and needs of KwaZulu-Natal. It is indeed a subversion of our monarchy.
Among the subversive elements of this legislation is the newly introduced incompatibility between certain offices of traditional leadership and membership in national and provincial legislatures. Members of royal councils and the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders cannot hold such political office, which will create a divorce between political hierarchies and traditional hierarchies, with consequent predictable conflicts. The role ascribed by this legislation to the Premier and the Minister in the affairs of the monarchy is both foreign and intolerable and smacks of a persistent colonial attitude. Today we are completing a process which has inflicted a deep and fatal injury in the monarchy of KwaZulu-Natal and the institution of traditional leadership nationwide, which is deep seated in the South African soil and which will undoubtedly germinate into powerful storms and tempests; possibly many years after our departure from this earth. In our present era no historical issue disappears and it is abound to re-emerge with a vengeance, many years to come. Today this House is finalising the set of historical grievances which now define the international question of the Zulu monarch. This is bound to be taken up by future generations, who, when reading the record of these proceedings, will curse those who went along with the government's endless betrayals and broken promises, without standing up to voice their indignation and defend our Republic's honour and national morality. The IFP does not support this Bill. Thank you.
Mr I E JENNER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 42
Mr M J BHENGU
Afrikaans
Mnr I E JENNER: Agb Voorsitter en lede, ten midde van uitdagings bring dié langverwagte Wet erkenning aan tradisionele leiers, asook insluiting, bevordering van morele waardes in `n kulturele perspektief. Hierdie twee is die vernaamste aspekte waaroor daar lank en in diepte gedebatteer is. Hierdie twee aspekte bring ook in samewerking met die wet `n einde aan die skade en verbrokkeling wat apartheid veroorsaak het. Vandag word die skerwe van kulturele vervreemding opgetel en is daar `n herlewing van inheemse en vergete groepe. Die uitdagings wat egter indringend aandag moet geniet, is die begrotingsimplikasies, die lang uitstaande diensleweringskwessies, die dringende bemagtiging van tradisionele leiers om die werkswyse van die verskillende regeringsfere te verstaan, die voorbereiding van veral plaaslike regering om hierdie geïntegreerde benadering te bevorder. Ek wil ook die hoop uitspreek dat die nuwe tradisionele leiers en groepe nie nou sal ontvou soos nuwe politieke partye agt maande voor die verkiesing nie. Hierdie nuwe wet sal ook die uitgeslote deel van die geskiedenis moet bywerk as `n doel om die debat betreffende identiteit, grondslag of eerste nasie, wie ontdek of gevind was en wie hier was, te stimuleer en te finaliseer. As verontregtes sal ons tradisionele leiers en gemeenskappe na vandag weer kan opstaan, weer kan trots wees, weer `n volk kan wees, weer ons eie taal kan praat, weer `n nasie kan wees en sodoende uitvoering gee aan die visie van ons voorvaders. Die OD ondersteun die wetsontwerp. Dankie.
Mr H B CUPIDO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 42
Mr I E JENNER
Mr H B CUPIDO: Thank you, Chairperson. The ACDP welcomes and supports the two Bills before the House today. According to the House of Traditional Leaders prior to the promulgation of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003, there were signs visible indicating that the relationship between them and the government was not favourable. Subsequently, our President Thabo Mbeki at the annual opening of the National House of Traditional Leaders this year stated:
· While government departments have been encouraged to work with
· traditional leaders where they can, implementation has revealed
· that the Traditional Leaders and Governance Framework Act requires
· further refinement
Hence government clearly acknowledged that they were working to refine the legislative framework which will facilitate the imperative responsibility of traditional leaders in South African society. Consequently we have the dawn of the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill before us today.
In essence, this Bill before Parliament provides appropriately for a National House of Traditional Leaders on the grounds and defines in greater detail its powers and duties and most significantly provides the relationship between the House, the provincial Houses and government on matters of legislative process. Overall, the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill affords the basis for the complete incorporation of the parliamentary process initially envisaged. Furthermore, the Bill deals with the functioning of the National House of Traditional Leaders and it gives effect to the needs and interests of re-establishing the functions and realigning it with the functions of Parliament in general.
It must be said that the ACDP wholly supports the National House of Traditional Leaders and the system of government for the rural areas provided that the system does not go against Christian values; reasons being that the ACDP shares certain fundamental values. Together we believe in the promotion of traditional values and cultures, social coherence and national identity. Furthermore, the ACDP believes that when such an institution is intact we will hear less of crime in the rural areas. To conclude, the ACDP supports this Bill but calls upon the traditional leaders to refrain from participating in party politics, whilst at the same time serving as traditional leaders, as this due role, in our view, is repugnant to the duty of traditional leaders of uniting their subjects. The ACDP supports the Bill.
Ms P BHENGU / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 43
Mr H B CUPIDO
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-43] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Ms P BHENGU: Hon Deputy Minister of Provincial and Local Government, hon Ministers, Members of Parliament and distinguished guests.
The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government tables before this House an additional House of Traditional Leaders Bill and Governance Framework Bill. These are the two separate but related pieces of legislations which together with the policy review process would cement what the ANC has always said in terms of recognising the institution status and the role of the traditional leadership within our modern constitutional and democratic system.
As required by law, we invited comments from all concern South Africans and organised groups. I'm happy to report to this House that we, indeed, received valuable inputs from a number of submissions which helped in shaping the final outcome of these two Bills.
Chairperson, the committee initiated a process of public hearings and the inputs received were extensively dealt with during the deliberations. I can confidently say that no individual or group will claim that their comments were not considered by the committee.
Last week, Wednesday, the committee voted on the Bill and the ANC supports the Bill as amended. Since this is the section 76, we then expect our colleagues in the NCOP to go to provinces to further strengthen the transformation process of traditional leadership in order for it to achieve full legitimacy, democracy and accordingly respected and accepted by all the people of our land.
On the other hand, Chairperson, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill is an outcome of the decision arose from the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims established by the Presidency in terms of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003.
The Nhlapho Commission, as it was formally known, was mandated to hear cases where there is a doubt whether a traditional leadership position was established in accordance with customary law. Cases where the title of an incumbent traditional leader is challenged; claims by communities to be recognised as traditional communities; cases questioning whether any establishment of tribes was legitimate; disputes around traditional authorities boundaries and the result in division or merging of tribes; and other relevant matters.
The Bill, therefore, amends the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act 41 of 2003 to provide among other things the following:
The recognition of kingships and queenships and the withdrawal of such recognition; the withdrawal of recognition for paramount chiefs in the de-establishment of paramountcy; establishment of kingship and queenship councils; and the functions of kingship and queenship councils.
Hon Chairperson, on the other hand, the main objective of the National House of Traditional Leaders is to repeal the National House of Traditional Leaders Act of 1997 replacing it with the whole new Act. The Bill overhauls the current Act by repealing it together with its amended Acts passed in 1998 and 2000 replacing it with the new law which is in line with the Constitution and the White Paper on Traditional Leadership and Governance adopted in 2003.
The main thrust of this Bill is, thus, the establishment and the effective functioning of the National House of Traditional Leaders. Among the progressive provision of the Bill, is the part that speaks about the strengthening of relationship between the House and the provincial Houses. In addition to this, the House must also hold biennial meetings with the kings and queens council to discuss matters of interest to kings and queens and matters which relate to service delivery and development of traditional communities.
However, for the House to perform its function it needs to be provided with all the necessary support by the national government. The House is also instructed to submit a report to this Parliament given an outcome of its activities and programmes. A way must also be found where traditional leaders co-operate with communities and organise groups to pursue common developmental objectives that stand to benefit the social welfare of the traditional communities.
IsiZulu
UKhongolose wenze olukhulu ushintsho okokuqala ngqa eNingizimu Afrika ukubhekelela izindaba ezithinta abaholi bendabuko. Amakhosi endabuko ebenganakiwe uhulumeni wobandlululo nawohulumeni bezabelo. Namuhla abaholi bendabuko sebeyahola ngisho nezinduna imbala seziyahola. Noma-ke uhlelo lusaqhubeka kodwa lokho kusho ukuthi uKhongolose kuningi akwenzile. Amakhosi asakhelwa ngisho nezinkantolo zokuthetha…[Kuphele isikhathi.]
Mr B E PULE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 43
Ms P BHENGU
Mr B E PULE:
Setswana:
Modulasetulo UCDP e dumelelana le mametlelelo ya melaotlhomo e, gore go nne le Ntlo ya Segosi ya Bosetshaba. Go tla thusa gore go nne le tshwaragano go tswa kwa tlase, ke gore ditheo tse di golaganang le Dipuso Selegae,Palamente ya Porofense le Kokoano Peo Molao ya Bosetshaba. Ka gale go na le ketsaetsego gare ga Bogosi le Bokhanselara mo metseng, bogolo fa go tshwanetse go dirwa ditlhabololo. Setswana sa re 'bogosi ga bo tlolwe e se letsoku' le fa ntse jalo go na le makhanselara ba ba itirang magosi ba rata go tlola bogosi.
Tsholofelo ke gore melaotlhomo e, e tla tlhamalatsa tsamaiso ya bogosi. UCDP e lebogela fa maikaelelo a magolo a puso e le go tsholetsa seriti sa bogosi jaaka e le bone batlhokomedi ba setso sa merafe go nna boswa jwa bana ba morafe oo. Ntlha e nngwe e e botlhokwa ke therisano, ya go dira ditlhabololo mo metseng. Go tswa kwa ga lowe magosi a ntse a tlhokomela merafe ya one ka ditlhabololo bogolo ka kago ya dikolo.A go seka ga bonala e kete batho ba re tlhopilweng dingwaga tse di le tlhano re ka gaisa ba ba tsaletsweng maemo ao. A molao o totobatse maikarabelo a dikgosi mo setshabeng jaaka molaotlhomo o o bua, mme re solofela gore puso le yone e tla tshegetsa magosi a rona jaaka e solofetsa.UCDP e dumelelana le mametlelelo ya melaotlhomo e.Ke a leboga.
Ms S RAJBALLY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 43
Mr B E PULE
Ms S RAJBALLY: The Minority Front, MF, has an abundance of respect for tradition, customs and culture. These aspects are the roots to the people we are and the history of generations past.
We are also lucky that through the horrendous events of colonialism and apartheid, we have managed to preserve our culture and tradition. It is crucial that a democratic state that we pave ways to reintroduce the effective traditional leadership and bodies of governance has initiated by the Constitution.
The MF extends its respect to the traditional leaders of South Africa and places confidence in the preservation of African tradition. These Bills have been long awaited and we sincerely hope that they shall facilitate the traditional leadership in South Africa and that shall demonstrate African tradition that abides to the Constitution.
We do further feel that there should be some dialogue between Traditional leaders and the national government as a united effort to address the challenges of South Africa and its upliftment. It is important that we identify common concerns and network co-operative projects.
It is crucial that traditional leaders also be ambassadors to all the traditions and customs of the people of our nation. We need to realise that we house many traditions that while we cater for these traditional leaders we maintain as much as respect for the traditions of our rainbow nations.
The MF supports the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill and the Traditional Leaders and Governance Framework Amendment Bill. I thank you, Chairperson.
CHIEF M NONKONYANI / MS (Eng.) LM (Setsw.)//sd (Zul)
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 44
Ms S RAJBALLY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-44] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
IsiXhosa:
Nkosi M NONKONYANA: Mgcinisihlalo, Malungu ale Ndlu abekekileyo, bonke abantu abafanele ukuhlonitshwa, ndiyabulela ngokuba nditefiswe ukuze nam ndenze libe linye okanye abe mabini ukuxhasa le Mithetho iYilwayo.
Ngenxa yokuba ke ndicelwe ziinkozi zam ukuba ndithethe zindive, noko ndiza kucela uxolo kuwe, Sihlalo, njengoko bendithembisile ukuba ndiza kuthetha isiXhosa poqo namhlanje. Kunyanzelekile ukuba ndithethe zindive ezinye iinkosi.
*** Language spoken has changed to English ***
I rise to add that needed voice of royal approval to both these Bills, which the ANC proposes that the honourable House approves. It is gratifying to note that almost all the parties have accepted these Bills. I'm certain that the IFP, the party that I thought was close to the institution of traditional leadership, is the only that will vote against these Bills. I will deal with their concerns later.
The National House of Traditional Leaders Bill, although repealing all the previous pieces of legislation passed by this honourable House, guarantees the continued participation of traditional leaders at national level, that is the third sphere of governance. It also addresses some of the challenges experienced since the unprecedented establishment of the national house by the ANC government as far back as 18 April 1997, that is more than 11 years ago.
Furthermore, it provides for a legal framework for the necessary relationship between the national house and the forum of kings and queens. This is another innovative step taken by the ANC government.
The provision for a forum of chairpersons and secretaries will also enhance the co-operation and the sharing of common vision and mission of a united South Africa by traditional leaders.
Furthermore, as if it is not enough, the Traditional Leadership and Government Framework Amendment Bill is aimed at effecting the necessary improvements to both the principal Act and the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, Act 20 of 1998.
The national house will therefore continue to exist and exercise its powers and functions as set out in the principal Act. Traditional leaders in Gauteng and traditional leaders in the Northern Cape will, for the first time, enjoy membership of the national house.
During public hearings traditional leaders voiced their wish that in addition to the full-time chairperson and deputy chairperson, all the members of the house must work full-time, as well as their desire for the house to work independently of the department. It became clear during our interaction with them that this desire, together with the question whether traditional leaders should continue to be involved in party-politics, should await a review of the White Paper, which the department is initiating. I'm sure the hon Cupido of the ACDP will find this very gratifying.
Furthermore, in the light of the envisaged establishment of the department of traditional affairs announced by President Mbeki early this year, it became clear that these and other issues need to be considered in a process that must involve public participation.
I turn briefly to the Traditional Leadership and Government Framework Amendment Bill. Pursuant to the adoption of the White Paper and the passing of that Act in 2003, the Act that this Bill seeks to amend provides, amongst other things, for a framework for transformation of traditional authority and the creation of a traditional council that guarantees, for the first time, at least 30 percent participation by women. Malibongwe!
Furthermore, again for the first time in our history, a framework for the establishment of local houses was provided for. The Act provides for the needed co-operation and mutual trust between all spheres of government and the institution of traditional leadership in order to accelerate service delivery in traditional communities.
In line with the views expressed by traditional leaders, especially by that progressive organisation the Congress of Traditional Leaders of SA, an independent commission was established to deal with the claims and counterclaims. The commission has made a determination regarding the legitimacy of the current paramountcies and confirmed that some of them are in fact kingships.
We also need to address the implementation of the determination of the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims relating to queens and kings, as well as the establishment of the queens' and kings' councils.
The Act currently does not provide for the mechanism to de-establish the paramountcies established in terms of the old order legislation. The amending Bill therefore provides for the establishment of another tier or rung of traditional leadership, that is kingship or queenship. Never again shall we refer to our queens and kings as paramount chiefs.
The ANC is indeed serious in restoring the pride and dignity of the institution of traditional leadership in South Africa. And the IFP ... [Time expired.] ... [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 44
Chief M NONKONYANA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to acknowledge Nkosi Khuthama in the gallery, who is the chair of the National House of Traditional Leaders. We welcome you, chairperson.
Secondly, I would like to thank all those who participated in the debate and those who supported the two Bills in front of us today. And I'd also like to thank hon Bhengu for making it very clear to us that before these Bills were tabled here today, there was a process at portfolio committee level where all different parties had to make their inputs and motivate their support or lack of support for the two Bills. That process was a democratic process.
Therefore, one doesn't expect one's input always to be accepted by one's portfolio committee; it is either accepted or rejected, depending on how one motivates one's issues.
I think we have a constitution in the country, and the institution has to evolve in line with the Constitution of the country; you can't pick and choose what to implement from the Constitution. Therefore, we are not going to sit back and not transform what needs to be transformed in this country.
Lastly, I would like to say to everyone: Thank you very much for participating in the debate, particularly to those who supported the Bill.
Debate concluded.
Question put.
DIVISION:
Agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY / MC
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 45
THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AN LOCAL GOVERNMENT
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-45] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
The Chairperson (Mr Q G M Doidge)
NATIONAL RAILWAY SAFETY REGULATOR AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading Debate)
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, hon members, the National Railway Safety Regulator Amendment Bill of 2008 which I present on behalf of Minister Radebe, seeks to amend the National Railway Safety Regulator Act 16 of 2008. The Principal Act establishes the railway safety regulator which is responsible for the overseeing of safety in relation to railway infrastructure, the railway operation and to promote railway as an efficient mode of transport.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Minister give us a minute. Order hon members, please take your seats. Please proceed hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: One of the main focus of the Amendment Bill is to amend the Principal Act so as to be in line with current developments, to empower the Minister to include mono rail systems, trains, systems running on pneumatic tyres and railways on narrow gages on the ambit of the Act and to regulate matters connected therewith. It seeks to ensure that the function of exempting railway is now fulfilled by the regulator and not by the Minister. The Amendment Bill makes it clear that the operators remain responsible for railway safety. The Amendment Bill seeks to require the regulator's annual report to be submitted within 5 months after the financial year end rather than three months, so as to be in line with the Public Finance Management Act.
It also provides that the CEO may appoint members of staff rather than the board, that the Minister will no longer be responsible to approve conditions of service of staff members, to empower the CEO to delegate his or her responsibilities or powers and duties, to provide that regulator's funds will include penalties and fees. The principal Act is amended so as to empower the Minister to make regulations, to adopt and accept existing standards as well as to develop new ones, empower the CEO to appoint inspectors who will audit, inspect and investigate the transportation of dangerous goods prior to their transportation by rail. The Amendment Bill provides for the operators or that the operators must investigate railway occurrences and to empower the regulator to take steps if the operator fails to do so.
The Bill further empowers the regulator to subpoena witnesses and documents in connection with the investigations and to clarify circumstances under which the regulator may require information. There will be no financial implications for the state and the entity itself instead of the revenue of RSR will be increased by charging a fee for training, advice and additional fees for administering permits and from penalties imposed. I commend this Bill to the House. Thank you Chairperson.
Mr J P CRONIN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 45
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Mr J P CRONIN: Thank you Chairperson and thanks also to the Acting Minister of Transport for stepping in. The National Railway Safety Regulator was established by legislation in 2002. So it's quite a new entity and it really only came into operation over the last couple of years. In the view of the committee and we have interacted with this railway safety regulator frequently over the years, its beginning to make real progress and to make an impact in terms of ensuring that there is effective safety operational standards in our rail system. This Amendment Bill is basically attempting to learn the lessons that we have learnt from the last couple of years of the railway safety regulator to improve where necessary and also to make provision for new technologies and other possibilities. So quite briefly the three or four areas where we are introducing amendments, the first is around governance issues. Often and certainly in my experience with these state entities that we are setting up, there are often some teething problems as between the boards and the CEO's for instance and confusions as to who is supposed to be doing what and there have be some challenges on that frontier and so in the Amendment Bill we are making very clear who is doing what. For instance the CEO is the person that appoints staff and not the board. That is something that sometimes happens. Appeals about decisions made by the railway safety regulator go to the board and not back to the railway safety regulator as such. So there is some governance issues like that, that we are just cleaning up in this legislation. Then there is the issue of mandate and again with these entities that we set up, there are often dangers of what we can call mandate creep. They start to do all kinds of things which are not really what they were intended to be doing. So for instance in the original legislation which I was bit involved in and I must accept responsibility, we said that amongst the other things that the safety regulator should be doing, it should also be promoting rail. Now that is a desirable object that quickly in the case of not this agency but some of the others, they take promoting this or that area of transport to mean that they must go out and all kinds of jumble reasons and do all kinds of things which are very far from their core mandate. So we have removed that from the mandate. Their mandate is to look after and to regulate the safety of operations on the rail system. That is their mandate. In so doing of course they will hopefully be promoting rail. We have tried to be clear about the mandate but we have realized that we also do need in one critical area to broaden the mandate a little bit more clearly. When we dealt with the original legislation, we were well aware that safety and particularly occupational safety issues fall under other legislation and fall under the Department of Labour and they labour inspectors and so on. And so we insulated the railway safety regualator from those matters and focused it on operational safety matters. But of course with two things interlay quite often and poor occupational safety situations can then result in operational problems and difficulties. And we actively sought input from Federation of Unions of South Africa and Itatwu and from South African Transport Allied Workers Union, the trade unions that active in this sector, and they all made valuable inputs into the process and what we have done now is to say that in so far as occupational health and safety matters impact on operational safety in the railway system, then the railway safety regulator should also working closely with the labour department be able to make recommendations and findings in regards to that, for instance Utawta told us that the noise levels in many of our locomotives are horrific and after a few years I think the Minister of Labour in fact encountered that. The train drivers started having impaired hearing and that is bad for the individual and unacceptable but it is also potentially an operational hazard as well and we really need to be able to deal with matters like that.
In other ways also we are trying to give the railway safety regulator a bit more teeth, for instance some of the problems in terms of operation have to with not what is happening directly in the rail environment but the way in which a factory might be packaging particular goods which then come on to the railway environment. And if there are incidents for instance on the railway system, we now empowering the railway safety regulator to go and inspect premises that are not just on the railway system but maybe off the railway system but which can impact in terms of operational safety. We also make allowances for new technologies, mono rails, God forbid that we should ever have any but if we do they will fall under the railway safety regulator the same with trams, narrow gauges, magnetic levitation systems and so on, unlikely we will get them in the short term but we are making provisions for those likelihoods. That is basically what we have done, it's a fairly simple piece of legislation and I think that there is broad agreement from all parties around it.
I would like to thank the colleagues in the committee and I would like also to thank our colleagues from the Department of Transport, from railway safety regulator and also from Transnet. Transnet always keeps a very biddy eye on what we are doing in terms of transport regulation as they should and they make their valuable inputs also into our technical understanding of what is required in this area. The ANC supports the National Railway Safety Regulator Amendment Bill. Thank you Chairperson.
Mr C M LOWE / SS (English)
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 46
Mr J P CRONIN
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-46] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mr C M LOWE: Chairperson, I shall be reading a speech of hon Stuart Farrow. Unfortunately he is recovering from surgery and cannot be here this afternoon.
Chairperson, the National Railway Safety Regulator was established by necessity in 2002. After a long delay in getting its board in place, and a chief executive officer and staff appointed, it finally got down to work around 2004. Since then it has not looked back and has arduously pursued its role with eagerness and enthusiasm. At last reports were being submitted on an annual basis to Parliament on rail related incidents and occurrences, and the public will now be able to see for themselves how safe our commuter and freight services really are.
For many years railway incidents were dealt with in the form of a board of inquiry which, despite the professional level of reporting, were never able to revoke or penalise the licensee responsible. In South Africa today, railway operators are not only monopolised by Transnet, but consist of numerous other concessionaires – private rail services, tourist providers, and mining operators all utilising our rail network.
All of these operators have to be registered as network operators and, if one looks at its definition in the Bill before us, it ensures that the person or persons who have the ultimate accountability for one or more of the following – the safety of the network or part of thereof, including the proper design, construction, maintenance, and integrity of the network; ensuring compliance of rolling stock with applicable standards of the network; for the authorising and directing of the safe movement of rolling stock on the network – must now comply in showing that the transport of all passengers and goods is of high and safe priority.
The Bill goes further to allow the NRSR, the National Railway Safety Regulator, to impose penalties on those network operators who do not comply with the standards already agreed to on the issuing of the respective safety permits. Hopefully one cannot envisage any matter of safety being compromised, as clearly the NRSR will now have more teeth to refuse the reissuing of the safety permit to an operator if found to be noncompliant.
This would be even more important in cases of noncompliance identified during the outcome of any investigation arising from a reported occurrence. The Democratic Alliance hopes, therefore, that the NRSR will be given the necessary funding and support to employ sufficient inspectors to check and verify all network operators' rolling stock and, of course, the goods that they are conveying.
Railway safety relies on the integrity of the various network managers to ensure standards are met and, more importantly, the safety of those employees who work within the sphere of the railway environment. They should be vigilant and observant to safety issues.
From all accounts, the Department of Labour has not been effective in ensuring compliance with the Occupational Health and Safety Act, particularly when it comes to enforcing operators like Transnet to safeguard diesel locomotive drivers from high noise levels in the cab – as we heard from the hon Cronin.
Despite this matter being raised by the DA some eight years ago, and evidence existing of it being raised in the same Parliament over 40 years ago with steam locomotive drivers, the matter has been given scant regard. It is thus imperative that inspectors work hand and glove with their colleagues in Labour to ensure the proper oversight of operations safety in our networks. The Democratic Alliance is pleased to support the Bill. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr E J LUCAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 46
Mr C M LOWE
Mr E J LUCAS: Chairperson, safety on our passenger rail transport is problematic, especially during the peak hours. Most of the problems are caused by overloading; however, the criminal elements add to making our trains unsafe.
It will be important for the railway safety regulator to pay special attention to how the commuter is being treated. We welcome the idea of widening the scope to include monorail systems, trams, track gauges, etc in order to accommodate systems which are required for a specific reason. This will include the proper construction and maintenance of the network.
The terms and conditions of service of the chief executive officer will be determined by the board after consultation with the Minister of Transport. The chief executive officer will be able to appoint staff which, I believe, is a more practical arrangement. Safety inspectors will be empowered to investigate packaging, marking, and classification of dangerous goods prior to it being loaded onto a train.
The IFP is of the opinion that the amendments will enhance the operations and safety on our rail network. The IFP supports the amendments. I thank you.
Mr R B BHOOLA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 46
Mr E J LUCAS
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, over the past few years rail travel has fallen victim to crime and accidents. It is crucial that, as Parliament, we pass legislation that will enhance safer rail travel and secure effective management of rail commuting.
We need to clamp down on cable thieves and secure areas around rail tracks and around commuters. The Bill's regulations and provisions appear in line with ensuring effective rail management. The MF is very excited about the Gautrein project. It would have been a greater achievement if it would have been introduced or initiated in other main provinces too.
While it is true that rail travel does take longer, it has been a more cost effective choice for many and we need to ensure the continued accessibility to the greater part of South Africans who have been severely compromised by the cost of living. Safety on rail is one of our greatest concerns and one that we hope is high up on the agenda. The Minority Front supports the amendments.
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY / END OF TAKE /Mia
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 47
Mr R B BHOOLA
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-47] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, hon members, once more, on behalf of the Minister of Transport, Jeff Radebe, I present to you the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill. The Bill is derived from the interventions contained in the Road Safety Strategic documents, 2001-2005 and is intended to assist the department in ensuring a reduction in the number of deaths and fatalities due to motor vehicle accidents on our public roads.
The Bill proposes in the short and long-term to give effect to some of the principal strategic interventions contained in the Road Safety Strategy 2001-2005. The proposed amendments to the Bill are intended to deal with incidents of fraudulent issuance of driving licences and corrupt practices within the Road Traffic Management by streaming the process in the issuance of driving licences and other processes within the driving licence testing centres.
From the object of the Bill, the following are the salient objectives; to curb incidence of criminal activities by, or in relation to the operation of motor vehicles on public roads and enhance professionalism of traffic officers and to combat fraudulent and corrupt activities. This is provided for by instructing traffic officers who are wearing a uniform to display a visible nametag, to provide for circumstances under which the courts can suspend a driving licence of a driver who is found to be in excess of the prescribed speed limit, prohibit private persons from operating driving licence testing centres, prohibit the unauthorised use of an officer's infrastructure number, regulate the conduct of traffic officers in relation to the examination of the loading of motor vehicles, prohibit the impersonation of traffic officers and the wearing of traffic officers' uniform without permission, empower the Minister to prescribe training procedures and qualifications of persons appointed as national inspectors at licence testing centres and stations, make new provisions regarding the processes by which the driving licences are issued and provide for liability of managers, agents and employees. Lastly, streamlining the process of setting fees by empowering the MEC to set such fees. I commend this amendment Bill to the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AGN / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 48
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-48] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, hon members, once more on behalf of the Minister of Transport, Jeff Radebe, I present to you the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill.
The Bill is derived from the interventions contained in the Road Strategic Documents 2001-2005 and it's intended to assist the department in ensuring a reduction in the number of deaths and fatalities due to motor vehicle accidents on our public roads.
The Bill proposes in the short-term and in the long-term to give effect to some of the principal strategic interventions contained in the Road Safety Strategy 2001-2005. The proposed amendments to the Bill are intended to deal with incidents of fraudulent issuance of driving licences and corrupt practices within the road traffic management by streamlining the process in the issuance of driving licences and other processes within the driving licence testing centres.
From the object of the Bill, the following are the salient objectives: To curb incidences of criminal activities by or in relation to the operation of motor vehicles on public roads; enhance professionalism of traffic officers and to combat fraudulent and corrupt activities - this is provided for by instructing traffic officers who are wearing uniform to display a visible name tag; to provide for circumstances under which the courts can suspend a driving licence of a driver who is found to be in access of the prescribed speed limit; prohibit private persons from operating driving licence testing centres; prohibit the unauthorised use of an officer's infrastructure number; regulate the conduct of traffic officers in relation to the examination of the loading of motor vehicles; prohibit the impersonation of traffic officers and the wearing of traffic officers uniform without permission; empower the Minister to prescribe training procedures and qualifications of persons appointed as national inspectors at licence testing centres and stations; make new provisions regarding the processes by which the driving licences are issued and provide for liability of managers, agencies or employees; and lastly, streamlining the process of setting fees by empowering the MEC to set such fees.
I commend this Amendment Bill to the House.
Mr J P CRONIN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 48
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Mr J P CRONIN: Chairperson, this piece of legislation, like the previous one, I think, is pretty straightforward, and I wish all our legislation was equally straightforward.
As the acting Minister has said, its objectives, amongst others, is to enhance the professionalism of traffic officers. That needs to be contextualised. Traffic officers are not a national competence. So, the national Department of Transport doesn't have a single speed-cop, as we use to call them. This is a provincial and municipal competence. We find out on our roads, or sometimes not on our roads, sufficiently a host of different kinds of traffic officers with different regulations, different practices, and so on.
What we are trying to do hear in terms of national legislation is at least begin to professionalise the operation by introducing broad standards, training requirements, and so forth. That's the first objectives of these amendments here, and in so doing, also obviously to combat fraudulent and corrupt practices. We are going to require all traffic officers to wear name tags so that they can be identified and behave in a professional way.
We are also prohibiting private persons from operating driving licence centres. Surely, this is got to be a public function and not something that can be concessioned out or contracted out. And so, we are quite clearly saying it's happening a little bit in some places. It can be the case. This needs to be firmly in public hands and we need to be publicly accountable for what happens in terms of these driving licence centres.
We also want to enhance the quality of the evaluation that happens in this driver licensing centres. Again, it's a patchwork of different standards, and so on. So, we are trying to introduce a single systems and single values and training for this.
Then we are providing for the suspension of driving licences if a driver is convicted for excessive speeding. That already exists, but we are trying to be specific. It's important that we tend to be specific. We do have a scourge of excessive speeding on our roads, causing amongst the highest levels of fatality in our country in the world.
If you are speeding over 30km an hour in an urban area, that should result in your licence being suspended. If you are speeding by more that 40km an hour on a freeway or in a non-urban area that should definitely result in your licence being suspended.
You are still breaking the law of your 5km an hour above it. But if you are 30km and 40km, then surely, you don't deserve to be driving and you need to be taught a firm lesson, because basically these are weapons of distraction, of murder literally in our country. Seventeen thousand people died last on our roads, and much of it has to do with speeding.
There were two issues in which we as a committee actively amended to the Amendment Bill that we got. The Bill in its form that came to us from Cabinet said that it was a requirement for applicants for driving licences to apply at centres nearest to their places of residence. We said what do you mean by that – within the province or within the municipality? Initially the department was telling us well municipality. We say well, that can't be right. There are serious problems. There are huge queues. What about MPs who want to get a driver's licences and who are not in they place of usual residence, and so on. So, we can't impose that.
They said well, let us make it per province then. We said well, the residents of Khutsong aren't going to be very happy being told that they have to go to North West to apply for a driving licence and they can't go to Gauteng because we've told them that it's a soft boundary and not an international frontier. So, we can't do that.
We understand what was being tried to achieve with this intervention, because there are patterns which are suggesting serious corruption. In one case we know of a serious corruption where plain loads, literally, of people are travelling from one city to a distant province, 30 at a time, in order to acquire a driving licence in some distant city within South Africa. I won't name the city.
Clearly, there is a pattern of corruption that is probably happening there. This is not just a matter of convenience, something funny is happening. But then we must deal with it appropriately, and not disqualify or hinder the average honest citizen who is trying to get a driving licence. We've got rid of that requirement of closest to your place of residence.
The second area, we heard in the public hearings from the Chamber of Mines, from the South African Bus Owner Association, and so on. They complained that often regulations in regard to road traffic are gazetted without adequate consultation. The department assured us that this is not the case. They said that we always consult key stakeholders and we've got a long list of key stakeholders, and so forth. And we always do it.
We didn't try to arbitrate between the Chamber of Mines and the South African Bus Owner Association what the Department of Transport was saying. But we did say it's very desirable that we make sure that there is effective consultation before regulations are published, particularly where the regulations can be quite technical and it does require technical understanding in some cases. It's exactly what you are saying about requirements of Boasa, whatever.
So, what we've said is that before the regulations become regulations, the Minister must table them, must inform Parliament for some response from Parliament for comment if we need to make it, and at the same time draft regulations must be published in the Government Gazette at the same time.
We are not trying to deal with every regulation. We couldn't as a parliamentary committee, quite realistically. But if there is a problem, we want to create a parliamentary space for organs of civil society, whatever, to come or individuals to come to Parliament and say there is a problem with this regulation. We think that proper consultation would have resulted in different regulation.
We don't want to stall matters. So, we are giving a four week period. We are saying it must be tabled in Parliament for comment. It must be published for comment in the Government Gazette at least four weeks before they become regulations.
So, there is a four week's span. We are not trying to hold up things. So with those amendments to the Amendment Bill, the committee was very happy and the ANC certainly supports the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill.
Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr K J MINNIE…/ TN/Mme
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 49
Mr J P CRONIN
Afrikaans:
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-49] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mnr K J MINNIE: Agb Voorsitter, ek lees graag die toespraak namens Mnr Farrow wat u verneem het in die hospital is.
English:
The Bill before us deals with a number of important changes pertaining mainly to matters which require either tightening up or improving certain sections in the principle Act. These include formulising some of the definitions pertaining to authorised officers within the traffic sector, and the wearing by these officers of main tags to ensure identity and avoid fraud. Our traffic officers play an important role in the control and management of traffic and those drivers who choose to disobey the rules of the road.
South Africa needs to accredit some 6 000 additional traffic officers to meet international norms, and our drivers need to change their mind-set from disobedience to obedience. Hopefully, the demerit system, presently under test as a pilot project in Tshwane, will help.
The Bill also looks at improving the quality of our vehicle-testing centres and ensuring that they are properly registered. Many of our motoring citizens complain about the long delay experienced in acquiring a learner driver's licence and ultimately a driver's licence. What is pleasing from this amending Bill is that applicants can be evaluated for learners' licences and drivers' licences at any authorised testing station in the country. Many school-leavers need drivers' licences for employment opportunities and, hopefully, this will cut down on the waiting period which currently averages six months in many of the larger centres.
Another aspect of the amendment which I'm sure most of us in this House and the motoring public in general have experienced is the whole matter of blue light escorts or emergency response, and the allowances given to those authorized vehicles to exceed the general speed limit, on the one hand, and the disregarding of road traffic signs on the other. Although these vehicles have become a part of our daily lives, it is somewhat concerning to see the increased use of escorted vehicles for very important persons, Ministers and, in some cases, even Members of Parliament, rushed through heavy traffic for no other reason than their importance. Needless to say, it is unnecessary and embarrassing. On this matter, though, an important addition to the Bill was made to ensure regulation pertaining to these convoys or emergency response vehicles was tabled in this House before promulgation in the Government Gazette.
All in all, the Bill has some useful amendments to make our country's roads safer and, therefore, the DA will be supporting this Bill.
Mr E J LUCAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 49
Mr K J MINNIE
Mr E J LUCAS: Chairperson, the Bill is to amend the National Road Traffic Act of 1996. It is important for all South Africans, national and international visitors and businesspeople to recognise that our authorised officers are both competent and efficient.
Much negativity has been directed at our traffic officers because there have been a number of cases when traffic officers as well as licensing officers have been accused of wrongdoing and, in fact, with many proven cases of fraud. It is important that the traffic officers have visible name tags in order to prohibit the impersonation of traffic officers. We hope that this will make it more difficult for criminals to obtain uniforms and name tags.
The IFP welcomes the fact that all driving licence and testing centres be registered. Needless to say, many of our citizens have been able to acquire roadworthy certificates and drivers' licences through fraudulent means.
These amendments are geared to minimise this behaviour. Many vehicle accidents can be attributed to these underhanded dealings. The amendments also seek to ensure that a licence applicant has gone through the proper procedures, resulting in the driver being capable of handling the vehicle he or she is permitted to drive. Circumstances when emergency vehicles may ignore road traffic signs and speed limits have been provided for in the amendments. Numberplates are also a serious problem. There are many cases where drivers remove their numberplates to avoid being identified. Criminals, in most cases, falsify their numberplates.
Without scrupulous policing, it will be difficult to achieve the objects of the Bill. We are pleased to note that there will be training of authorised officers, which will also promote safety on our roads. The IFP supports the amendments. Thank you.
Mr R B BHOOLA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 49
Mr E J LUCAS
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, the idea is not only to make our roads safer, but to equip people with the driving skills that, according to law, qualify you as safe to commute on public roads.
This should be the responsibility of anyone who gets behind the wheel. Today we see many more female drivers than we have in years before. This is evident of women empowering themselves and taking the initiative to mobilise them.
We as the MF find this Bill vital to road safety in South Africa. However, we found that driving with the lights on 24/7, which was introduced by the late Minister of Transport, Dullah Omar, is an effective mechanism to increase visibility and decrease accidents. We call on the department to reintroduce this initiative. We, however, feel that for this Bill to be effective, we need to secure our safe roads that are pothole-free, broad and well-structured.
The MF will support the Bill.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 49
Mr R B BHOOLA
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Once more, hon Chairperson, it remains for me to thank the members for the positive debate. It's common legend that there are thousands and thousands of fraudulent licenses in our country, and that they contribute towards the road deaths that occur every year.
Hopefully, these amendments will ensure that there is greater integrity in our road traffic system and members have contributed towards that today. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY /AKJ / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 50
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-50] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
11TH ORDER
Legal succession to the south African transport services amendment bill
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (Acting Minister of Transport): Chairperson, hon members, government has decided through policy directives that public transport should play a more important role in serving and developing South Africa and its people. In this regard, Cabinet on 18 November 2004 approved the consolidation of the passenger rail entities, that is, the South African Rail Commuter Corporation, Metrorail and Shosholoza Meyl.
The first phase of this consolidation process, which saw Metrorail consolidated within the SARCC, has been successfully concluded in May 2006. The second phase of the consolidation that involves the merger of the long distance passenger rail entity, Shosholoza Meyl with SARCC, will be concluded before March 2009.
Aligned with the passenger rail restructuring process, Autopax, the road-based long distance passenger services of Transnet, has been earmarked as a non-core business identified for disposal.
In June 2007, the department notified Transnet of its interest on acquiring Autopax, and Transnet confirmed this interest, advising that Transnet had approval in terms of the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act to dispose of Autopax through a public disposal process in the open market. The department has subsequently concluded a due diligence, validation and business plan process.
In February 2008, the department entered into discussions with National Treasury regarding the findings of the due diligence and business plan report and it was agreed that because of the financial status of Autopax it was more appropriate for Autopax to be transferred to the SARCC.
The strategic role of Autopax within the contexts of the Public Transport Strategy and the greater public transport arena has been determined as follows: Autopax, as an operator of inter-city services for the period until 2010, will be one of consolidating its position as a provider of quality long distance services and providing rural services that co-ordinate in full with Shosholoza Meyl.
These rural services will become part of a provincial rural access strategy providing public transport to communities that are currently isolated from the mainstream public transport routes. In the build to 2010, Autopax will establish a separate entity and enter a management agreement with other stakeholders to manage the transport requirements and so ensure the provision of intercity long distance passenger services for the 2010 FIFA World Cup event.
The passing of this Bill will not only bring to finality the long-term government objective of bringing passenger rail entities to one family, accountable to the Minister of Transport, but will also allow government to respond successfully to the roll-out of the rural access strategy and the provision of co-ordinated intercity services during the 2010 FIFA World Cup.
The new Passenger Rail Company or PRASA, as the SARCC will be known in future, will assume greater responsibilities, importance and stature than ever before. The region, of which South Africa is a major trading and economic hub, is today characterised by physical movement of both people and goods, and the main challenges facing SADC is to ensure that its rail infrastructure responds to, and integrate with the other emerging trading systems.
Government is also awaiting proposals which will guide its options on how the private sector will participate and invest in the rail sector to promote mobility and economic development. Government has already set and made progress in the revitalisation of rail, by approving the National Passenger Rail Plan, and has injected more than 16 billion to fund specific rail infrastructure interventions on priority rail corridors.
To improve safety and security in the rail environment, government has invested long-term solutions through reintroduction of the SAPS Railway Policemen and has provided the unit with 30 police stations which will cost more than R360 million and 4 500 police members will be working in the rail environment by 2010.
The Passenger Rail Company, Prasa, will play a major role in the provision of both passenger rail and intercity bus services for 2010 World Cup and the sustainability of the legacy after the World Cup. Autopax will become a subsidiary of Prasa after the passing of this Bill and will procure 1 422 buses and coaches necessary to provide the projected services. Autopax will also create employment opportunities by the recruitment of about 2 229 drivers necessary for the full mobility of dignitaries during the 2010 FIFA World Cup.
In this rapidly changing international environment, characterised by economic integration, a sound transport system is paramount for active participation in order to promote regional integration and the strengthening of economic partnerships within SADC states, by providing affordable public transport solutions.
Government policy calls upon the public transport system to provide demand-driven and customer responsive services based on appropriate service levels, especially to the poorer sections of our society. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B L MASHILE:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 50
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (Acting Minister of Transport)
Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, hon members, and our guests, we once again come before you to request your support to pass the Legal Succession to South African Transport Services Amendment Bill 2008.
In 2005, we did place before you the proposal to transfer Metrorail from Transnet into South African Railway Commuter Corporation in response to the 2004 Cabinet's decision to improve the efficiency of Passenger Rail Services in the Country. You agreed with us on that matter, hence the current improved Metrorail services in our urban areas. This has dealt with only one puzzle in our passenger rail services.
Members are reminded that our Constitution, under section 1 states that the Republic of South Africa is one. Reading this clause together with the equality clause in the Bill of Rights, it is expected that these improved passenger rails services at urban areas should be extended and accessed by all areas of our country. Everybody should experience the efficient and reliable passenger rail services across the country without regard to geographical location.
Now, for the above-mentioned to find practical expression, we as the ANC-led committee are bringing the last piece of the puzzle in Legal Succession to the South African Transport Services Amendment Bill 2008 before you. Through this Bill we intend to do the following; to transfer long distance passenger rail services, known as Shosholoza Meyl, to the South African Rail Commuter Corporation; to transfer the long distance passenger bus services, Autopax – commonly operating as Translux and City-to-City coaches into South African Rail Commuter Corporation.
The conclusion of this transfer expected to be on 31 March 2009, will result in a consolidated passenger rail transport services under one entity, the South African Rail Commuter Corporation. This transfer will enable an improved integration of the Metrorail Services, Shosholoza Meyl and Autopax services to serve our people and our SADC neighbouring states.
The transfer of these two remaining business units within Transnet will entail the transfer of rolling stock, properties and personnel. There are consequential processes that will unfold in relation to the subdivision of properties identified for transfer; these include stations and other properties for offices, the evaluation of assets, the welfare of personnel issues, the finances and other related matters.
Responding to these envisaged processes we have put the following but not limited to measures necessarily to enhance speedy transfer and conclusion.
We have empowered the Minister of Transport, in consultation with the Minister of Public Enterprises to identify and transfer certain assets owned by Transnet to the South African Commuter Corporation. We empowered the Minister of Transport in consultation with the Minister of Finance to determine the value of assets to be acquired by SARCC; to provide for employees to be transferred to SARCC to have a choice to retain membership of Transnet Medical Scheme, to exempt Transnet from applying for approval of any subdivision of land necessary in order to effect the transfer, and to set a target date of 31 March 2009 for the transfer of Shosholoza Meyl and Autopax to be concluded.
In the light of the coming 2010 Soccer World Cup, our public Transport system needs to have attained levels of certainty and reliability. We need synergy across all our modes in order to deliver the World Cup and beyond in terms of mobility. It is long that our people, especially in the rural areas were marginalised and receiving unreliable low-standard public services by the previous government that we inherited. Public transport service is the backbone of the so-called second economy in our country.
As ANC-led government we have intervened in the taxi industry through the taxi recapitalisation project that sees old vehicles being replaced by reliable compliant fleet across the country. We proceeded with the revamp of the Metrorail, and now we are on our last hurdle with Shosholoza Meyl and Autopax. We shall not fail the masses. The majority of South Africans rely on these state funded public transport system services for their mobility.
We therefore call upon this hon House to support the amendment Bill. The ANC supports the Legal Succession to the South African Transport Services Amendment Bill 2008. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs S V KALYAN...
///tfm///
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 51
Mr B L MASHILE
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,20 Aug 2008,"[Take-51] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gn].doc"
Mrs S V KALYAN: Thank you Chairperson. I rise to read the speech on behalf of my colleague, hon Stuart Farrow.
This Bill makes provision for the transfer of long-haul passenger rail services and long distance bus services from Transnet to the SARCCC, now to be known as the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa - PRASA.
The process started in 2004 when Cabinet approved the consolidation of commuter rail into the SARCC in two phases. The first phase was concluded in March 2006 when Metrorail became part of SARCC and the Bill being presented today now completes the picture. Two further additions from the Transnet stable that no longer suite its profit-leading profile, namely Shosholoza Meyl and Autopax are now transferred to PRASA.
Both of these entities provide passenger services which clearly require some level of subsidy and by their definition should fall under the Department of Transport and it's now to be formed agency PRASA, previously SARCC.
The DA has for many years called for all transport entities to fall under one Ministry in order for policies, strategies, subsidies and budgets to be singularly aligned, co-ordinated and thereafter monitored and controlled.
The ``two bulls in the kraal'' syndrome which has prevailed and continues being in existence up until now, clearly needs to end and one Minister needs to be held accountable for all transport related entities. However, what happens to freight transport – Spoornet - and air transport – SAA – still needs some thinking through. Maybe with the 2009 elections coming up and some interesting Cabinet posting and reshuffling on the cards, who knows, maybe the Minister of Transport will reflect its new and proper identity!
Mergers like these are not easy and they affect people who in the background know that their jobs may be duplicated or their functions may have become redundant. The DA therefore trusts that the lessons that were learnt from the Metrorail transfer will hold SARCC in good stead in ensuring that this transition is easier and less painful.
The harmonization of salaries, pensions and medical aids all need to be taken into account during this process and hopefully these experiences and shortfalls have now been made easier by the amendments in this Bill and the overarching Labour Act.
Chair, it is intended to transfer employees and assets of the two companies to the newly formed PRASA. What PRASA will be receiving is not the best in terms of good deals but, be it as it may, they will have their work cut out to make these operations profitable, efficient and safe.
The new entities will provide passenger transport which will reach sectors of our population where the private sector operators are limited, and in particular where subsidization of fares will be highly probable. The Bill however does provide additional powers for the future transfer of the entities into the hands of the private sector through partnerships, contracts and participation in joint ventures in order to advance the corporation and its objectives.
This is encouraging in a sense that Autopax, for instance, which hauls 35% of the market in its Translux and City to City services, operates on a R36 million shortfall at present and is in effect insolvent. This will therefore require a massive turnaround and restructuring for it to become a viable and sustainable entity and maybe even its future sale to emerging entrepreneurs in the transport industry.
It is further proposed that some of the busses which are unsuitable for their purposes and are on lease hire will be disposed of while the new acquisitions of some 1 442 busses for the 2010 Fifa World Cup will be transferred into Autopax. Hopefully, with the right planning, retention of skills and maintenance of this new fleet, opportunities will arise to enable Autopax to redistribute these coaches to appropriate municipalities or transport operators in order for them not to become a burden on the state's scares resources. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, your time and that of Mr Farrow has now expired.
Mrs S V KALYAN: The DA will be supporting the Bill. [Time expired.]
Mr E J LUCAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 51
Mrs S V KALYAN
Mr E J LUCAS: Chairperson, it's pleasing to note that the amendment Bill seeks to improve the use of long-haul rail and bus services. I do believe that this is a step in the right direction. In carrying out this objective, the corporation will have due regard to key government social, economic and transport policy.
Currently, Transnet is a public company which provides rail, passenger and freight services in South Africa. Metrorail and Shosholoza Meyl have provided rail commuter services in urban centres. Sosholoza Meyl currently provides long-haul rail passenger services.
The South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited will be renamed Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa.
It is important to note that Transnet has run at a great loss. For the next three years, National Treasury will be allocating large sums of money into the project.
The Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa has a mammoth task to turn this transport venture into a self-financing venture. There will be tremendous pressure on the Board to ensure that the objects of these amendments will materialize.
The IFP supports the amendments.
MR R B BHOOLA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 51
Mr E J LUCAS
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, the MF finds it crucial that we as Parliament introduce legislation that secures the safety and growth of our people.
The consolidation of Metrorail and Shosholoza rail is an initiative to assure rail travel safety, but we would like to know in greater detail how the safety aboard trains are being enhanced and monitored.
Further, it is evident that while rail travel is more cost effective, it does take longer and we are wandering as to whether this cost effectiveness is being maintained and whether faster rail travel are being considered.
The Bill appears to effectively address the ends we desire to attain and complies with the national Constitution.
We urge on the public to invest in rail travel as a more cost effective means of transport in a time when the cost of living is challenging.
The MF will support the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 20 August 2008 Take: 51
Mr R B BHOOLA
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chair, I thank hon members for the support. I must say that I am really very relieved. When Minister Radebe asked me to do this, I protested very strongly because I thought it was too much work. But also because I didn't think I know enough about transport to present so many pieces of legislation. Little did I know that members of this House are very sweet and that they will not give me any problems, whatsoever.
I am presenting another piece of work for him tomorrow, and I hope hon members are going to be just as sweet as they were today.
Thank you very much Chair. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
Mme / END OF TAKE
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