Children's Amendment Bill [B19B-2006]: Deliberations on Clauses 195 To 227

Meeting report

The Committee deliberated from Clause 195 until the end of the Bill. The following is a report of the discussion that took place.
 
Clause 195
No submissions
No comments

Decision no changes

Clause 196
Questions of clarity around the functions of secure care facilities

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) In the past everything had different names now collapsed into one.  Will this not lead to confusion? Children will be in the same institutions.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) children are placed in programmes that are tailored to their needs. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) do you have more than one programme in a secure care facility? What is the rationale for one single type of institute?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) there are currently five types of residential care facility in this Act all are collapsed into one type of institution because there is a shortage of facilities.  One facility for one purpose only, those labels prevent facilities from taking more than one type of child.  Children often need a range of programmes.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) but children are kept separately?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) normally with regulations they are a “may” this is one of the few exceptions.  Where the norms and standards must be set; the separation of children must be set in the norms and standards.

Cheryllyn Dudley (ACDP) security is very important, on our study tour we saw doors removed bars removed door broken.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) in Ekurhuleni there were very organised.

Hilda Weber (DA) children who are coming into a safe care facility must now be assessed.  Who does the assessment? A social worker?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) if it is through the courts a social worker will be advising whoever decides.  The social worker will know which facilities are available and have places for the child.

Hilda Weber (DA) we should not go on assumptions.  When a child comes in off the street they wait for ages for a court hearing, even a social work assessment.  What do you do with at troubled child in this circumstance?  Who decides if they go to secure care?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what is difference between types of facility?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) of industry school for children with behavioural problems, reform school for children who have been sentenced.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) instead of awaiting trial in prison children wait in secure care.  There is a lot of pressure on government to provide more reform schools so that children do not have to serve their sentences in prison – at the moment there are only 4 or 5 reform schools in the country, (Western Cape, KwaZulu Natal, Mpumalanga). 

This Act gives the MEC the responsibility to ensure enough of every kind of facility.  The Department of Education must provide education but the Department of Social Development is responsibility for the service overall.

The rationale makes registration easier – requirements are the same for all child and youth care centres only the programme that is different.  This streamlines the process of registration.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) There are three types of facility currently reform school, secure care, school of industry now programmes that could easily be offered by one facility.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) child and youth care centres could offer different programmes we have existing child and youth care centres that offer different programmes but they have to register multiple times.  The children are not allowed to mix.

Cheryllyn Dudley (ACDP) what about children who are in need of protection, will they be mixed with children in trouble with the law.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) because the facilities are created for different risk levels it should be possible to categorise the facilities.

NO DECISION

Clause 197

Janet Semple (DA) 197(1)(d) will this cause problems municipalities have different standards.  Do we need to set the norms and standards in the law?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) there are national set standards in terms of buildings etc.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) on the earlier sections where we gave specific powers to municipalities would it not apply here? Are the norms and standards not set here?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) cannot assign alternative care to a municipality because the constitution places a direct obligation on the government to provide alternative care.  Partial care facility is a concurrent function, but alternative care is not. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) could be seen to limiting the constitution by saying that the municipalities can only deal with crèches.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) thinking about the monitoring at the moment child and youth care centres are only provided by Provinces, would the skies fall if municipalities also deal with child and youth care centres.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) policy issue like foster care municipalities are not involved in the placement of children in alternative care.  There is no capacity in local government at present.  If we make local government responsible cannot delegate into a vacuum. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) there must also be pol heads to take responsibility for the delegation.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) with partial care facilities it is a private arrangement with the parents alternative care is court ordered.  There is a huge conceptual difference because the State is legally responsible for a child in alternative care.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we need to double check how that whole regime is regulated.  Are the standards national?  Are they just enforced nationally.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) if you look at 197(1) it says organ of state – what does that mean?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) muncipalities can have child and youth care centres but the monitoring remains with the Province. 

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) but it does not say that in the bill.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remember that we are removing the exception so that all government run facilities will have to register.   Add local government to the list in (3) so that municipal facilities have to register also.  

DECISION – amend as follows:

Clause 197(3) [With the exception of partial care facilities] All child and youth care centres operated or managed by a national [or] provincial state or local department responsible for social development or local government, all [partial care facilities] child and youth care centres operated or managed by a national or provincial state department or local government must comply with subsection (1)

Clause 198

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) line 33 cross-reference should be s197.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what happens to all those unregistered facilities?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) we can close them down, force them to register or issue conditional registration.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) on the day when this law comes into effect – do you want to create the space to allow unregistered facilities to register?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) unregistered shelters are running illegally now – do not have to make special provision.  Provincial Department of Social Development will have to send notice to everyone to inform them about the new measures in the Act. 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remember that these are alternative care facilities not everyone is allowed to set up such a facility.  The court places children in alternative care. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what about substance abuse cases?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) there is a prohibition on leaving children in alternative care without a court order for longer than six months. 

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) some children are not in alternative care under court orders. There are legal ways of doing it.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) but they are the exception, right? 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) yes, they are there pending a court order.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) I think I’m in a Monday morning mode, I just want to be clear.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) see s167 no child may be kept for more than six months.

Musa Mbere (DSD) a child in need of care and protection is usually placed in temporary safe care first. 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) in the chapter on alternative care these issues are covered.  Child and youth care centres are a form of alternative care, chapter 11 [alternative care] specifies that any child in a child and youth care centre who is not under a court order is considered to be in temporary safe care.  There is a limit in terms of s167 on how long they can be kept without a court order.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what happens to children without a court order?  Must insert a transitional measure, or else they will be in limbo.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) will redraft s167(2) prohibition on keeping children in an unregistered facility or without a court order.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what should go into law what into the regulations and what must remain in the law.  General principle if something limits a citizens rights it must be in the legislation.  Not sure why we are saying that this issue should be delegated to the regulations.

Public submissions
Western Cape Street Children Forum
Siyakhana

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) As parliament we need to create a transitional framework for the illegal organisations.

Janet Semple (DA) does the department have a plan?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) five years is too long for the registered ones.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) let me explain the type of work that will need to be done.  In most of the shelters they are keeping children that are not court ordered therefore they do not get a subsidy.  Most of the provinces do not fund strictly per child.  It is not currently well regulated.  Once they transform each shelter must show that each child is under a court order, going to the presiding officer. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) is it an issue of registration or is it an issue of compliance.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) compliance. Once the children are court ordered then they will be able to apply for registration.  We must use a developmental approach.  We register them provisionally then support them to get full registration.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) temporary registration would be for the new ones.  Soft measures for the temporary registration.  Becomes the solution to what happens when the Act comes into force.  Grace period to get temporary registration, reasonable period of time. 

DECISION reformulate with temporary registration.

Clause 199

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) legal problem is going to be reasonableness, if you do not have set time period then organisations will be able to litigate. 

Janet Semple (DA) why is it not a “must” in line 43.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what is wrong with “must”?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) there are options available to the provincial Head of Department he could close the place immediately and not a issue a notice of enforcement.

Hilda Weber (DA) could we not add another option to transform to a prevention and early intervention programme.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) No, that is a registration issue.  They would have to apply to register as a different programme.  You have taken the decision to provide one type of service cannot be forced to operate a different type of service.

Hilda Weber (DA) so that would be covered.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) it could be covered in the following section.

Public submissions
NACCW

Clause 200

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) insert “or conditional registration in terms of 202” line 13.

Hilda Weber (DA) where would this cover converting a to a different type of service?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) don’t we provide for that somewhere? Don’t programmes have to be registered as well?  How do we enforce norms and standards for programmes?  Surely if we set norms and standards for the programmes they must be registered.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) this issue was discussed at length, because of the number of programmes that are run by child and youth care centres we decided not to register each programme. For example if you run a secure care centre you must comply with the norms and standards. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) do we have something to respond to Hilda Weber’s point.

Agnes Muller (DSD) if you look at s191 that is where we register the residential care programme.  Would be good to register the other programmes as well. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) do you want the registration certificate to specify the programmes.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) has been done with nurseries, not all partial care facilities have to run early childhood development programmes. Could we redraft and come with something tomorrow?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) two options register separately or upon registration of child and youth care centre register the programmes, then cannot vary the programmes. Bottom line programmes need to be registered and monitored, and norms and standards must be enforced.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) s191 there are two parts (1) is a ‘must’ and (2) is a ‘may’.  The only thing that must be offered is a therapeutic programme.  The assessment of programmes has not been taken care of.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) comfortable with the fact that programmes must be registered and monitored.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) what is the role of the municipality here are they setting the norms and standards for the facility?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) the health and safety aspects are set out in other legislation.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) will check the other legislation and come back.

DECISION check 200(1) (c)(ii)

Clause 201

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) a201(2)(e) add “training” line 7

Louis Nzimande (ANC) does (3) fit in that place.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) fit and proper person is defined by cross-reference to s220.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) yes this is the cross-reference to the paedophile register.  Do not want to send our children to the lions.

Public submissions
NACCW

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) there is no such thing as a designated social service professional – a designated social worker works for the Department of Social Development.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) will you have enough social workers?  Will there be enough capacity if it is restricted to social workers?  Must ensure that there are enough staff to perform the tasks but not overburden them. Is it possible to introduce a new term, “designated social service professional”?

Louis Nzimande (ANC) how far is the implementation of the human resources plan.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) the costing is not just about the money it is also about the warm bodies.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) social service professionals could assist but at the moment they are not formally registered and recognised.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) no difficulty in restricting this to social workers.  Must ensure that social workers are not over burdened.  When we refer to alternative workers must ensure that this does not cover social workers.

Clause 202
Janet Semple (DA) does that cover the temporary situation we talked about.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we need that degree of flexibility in terms of the time period.

Decision limit conditional registration to one year maximum.

Hilda Weber (DA) still not clear that if you have residential centre that you can now come in and register as a day care centre.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) but we are going to take people by the hand and assistance.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) question of clarity: so what you are saying if child and youth care centre does not meet the requirements, they can alter into another service. S205 makes provision for the voluntary closure that would then allow them to register as another type of facility.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) for example if they want to become a temporary safe care facility?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) they do not need to register to be a temporary safe care facility, just need to be approved.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) they want to go into cluster foster care then that scheme will have to be registered.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) do not want to give them any guarantees of registration as another programme.

Public submissions
NACCW

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) Suggestions are covered s201 in PAJA must give reasons for decision on registration, closure or notice of enforcement.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) why should we give the MEC a blank cheque?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) we are not.  We give the Head of Department the power to amendment a specific registration.

Clause 203
No submissions
No comments

Clause 204

Louis Nzimande (ANC) can someone get a second chance? 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) depends on the situation.  If the staff ratios are not met then the time period could be three months.  If the children are at risk you could close the centre immediately in terms of s204(5)(b).

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) is there a transitional phase for partial care facilities?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) we can standardise the two chapters. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we probably need a longer cooling off period for partial care facilities. Department of Social Development does not currently have the capacity to deal with all these registrations.

NO Decision

Clause 205
No submissions

Janet Semple (DA) what happens if the child and youth care centre just decides to close without giving notice to the department.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) yes they “must” give notice.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) but cannot just insert the word must it will not make sense.

Decision re-word to oblige child and youth care centres to inform the department.

Clause 206
No submissions
No comments

Decision- no changes

Clause 207

Hilda Weber (DA) if notice of enforcement is appealed do you have to close or keep open pending appeal.

Soraya Williams (SLA) common law principle keep open pending appeal.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) the court has discretion to enforce pending an appeal.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) can strengthen s204 so that can close down pending an appeal.  This is not about the rights of the person operating the centre it is about the rights of the children.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) do we want to regulate the timeframe within which a person can bring an appeal? 

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we have given them 90 days.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) that is renewal of registration.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we must regulate this in the Act.  Must note an appeal in 14 days.  The noting of appeal would suspend the closure.

DECISION INSERT TIME FRAME

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) We should link appeals and condiditional registration what does PAJA say?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) six months would be a reasonable time period for fresh applications.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) maximum time period of six months would be suitable.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) trying to help the little guys.  Sometimes they need to access government funding to reach the norms and standards that could mean waiting until the next financial year to be awarded funded.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) in the rural areas it does not happen.  Why can’t rural areas and townships get the same standard of service as those in cities.  What will compel progressive realisation of the services in rural areas.

Conditional registration could be an escape clause – you can render a lesser service forever.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) give child and youth care centres a year to comply with the conditions set out in conditional registration.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) a whole lot of people in the townships could set up sub-standard centres, and demand support in terms of this clause.  Therefore, use the term review at least annually. 

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) maximum one year because these are a must fund service.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) for a “prescribed period not exceeding one year”.

Clause 208
Public submissions
Chain

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what are we creating here with the management boards?  Are we creating a juristic person?  Who is held liable the board or the association or are they jointly and severely liable. 

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) what is the current practice?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) and any current problems?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) with CWSA the board gets members from the local community.  CWSA is a large organisation they have their own board, and their own the facility.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) so JCWS is ultimately accountable to the national organisation CWSA.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) the organisation must first register as an NPO and list as a s21 company.  They will own the facilities as part of the section 21 company.  The overarching company cannot manage the facilities at a local level if it is a large organisation.

Decision insert s208(1) qualify the obligation to establish a children’s forum as part of the management board “dependant on the age, maturity and ability of children to participate in decision-making”

Clause 209
Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) on (2) that person must be screened against the National Child Protection Register.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we could make it a (d)

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (c) says fit and proper which is broader

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) do we need (4)?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) should staff ratios be in the norms and standards?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) must be either appoint or designate will check which one and then apply consistently.

Decision move s209(4) to norms and standards.

Public submissions
Siyakhana
NACCW
Western Cape Street Children Forum

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) NACCW proposal about the ratio is a norm. Definition of child and youth care workers is defined in the Social Service Professionals Act.

Clause 210.
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remove “by regulation” in line 48, unnecessary it is implied in prescribed.

No submissions
No comment

Decision – no changes

Clause 211
No public submissions
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (3) change “give advice” to “assist”

Clause 212
No public submissions
Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) the ratios would come here?

Hilda Weber (DA) 212 (f) fees to be paid?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) for registration no fee is paid.  This is only for appeals.

Decision 212 (c) change matters to conditions.

Chapter 14
Clause 213
Public submissions - the recommendations that were read out were from old NASC submissions (Was the wrong submission sent in?) 
Streetwise
Childline

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) not happy with the definition, we are talking about street children here. 

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) the nature of drop-in centres has changed.  Now they accommodate the needs of children affected by HIV.  There are lots of children using these centres.

Musa Mbere (DSD) children on the streets are now recognised as children in need of care and protection in terms of s150 of the Children's Act, they will have to be taken to a child and youth care centre.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) not what happens in practice.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) shelters are going to transform, they will offer the programme for children on the streets.  If a child wants to stay in a drop-in centre you will immediately refer them to a child and youth care centre.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) shelter is now a programme.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) complaints from sector lead to long dialogue.  Moved shelters to chapter on child and youth care centre.  Children in child and youth care centre should be placed by the court or there should be a court process pending.  To address problem bring shelters into the chapter on child and youth care centres.  Force the system to take children on the streets through a children's court inquiry process.  However, children on the streets do not want to follow the rules so they need special programmes.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) where are those programmes?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) under s191. You want to bring children into the system.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) don’t want shelters to receive lower standards.  Don’t want children on the streets to receive basic services. 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remove street children from the definition.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) want to elevate the level of care, don’t want children on the streets to receive basic services.

Change the definition of drop-in centres – remove “street children” and free to leave

Clause 214

Public submissions
SACBC
National Health and Welfare Council: Full Gospel Church of God in SA

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we must add DPLG to list of departments that must be consulted.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remove civil society that is a drafting error, it is covered by interested parties.

Clause 215

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (2)(a) typo to be corrected “management” should be “managed”.

Public submissions
Siyakhana
Western Cape Street Children Forum

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) we have exhausted the may and the must.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we have our own personal views and professional view points.  These will be part of child and youth care centres or rendered as prevention and early intervention, which are both musts.  If we really want to get rid of children on the streets this should be a must.  Orphans and vulnerable children services get money through the National Strategic Plan on HIV. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we have that all encompassing clause that means progressive realisation.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) I can run a drop-in centre from my house if I have a big enough kitchen and I cook soup and I can qualify.  We should ensure that the drop-in centres are accessible and the funding should be prioritised towards poor communities.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) must separate compliance of facility and the programme. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we must check the intended and unintended consequences, even for the prevention and early intervention.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) requirements for funding an early childhood development programme is that they have a management board. 

Agnes Muller (DSD) not in the law in the guidelines.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) on the early childhood development we acknowledged that some are privately owned.  Private ones only funded if they take in children with disabilities and they make their programmes accessible.  The funding is qualified. 

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) the only facility that is required to have a management board is child and youth care centres.

Musa Mbere (DSD) individuals and organisations can access funding in terms of the poverty alleviation programme. The NPO act says they must have a management structure.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) there is no law

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) there are always people who are in the business of farming children. 

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) in situations where we have to fund a drop-in centre we will insist on a management committee.  That will be the policy.  In situations where the individual can access other funds we will just register them and monitor them.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) is access to government funding regulated anywhere?

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) it is that may and must.  Need to qualify the funding.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) the management and the funding go together, this cannot be done in isolation.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) looking at the next clause will help resolve the situation.

Clause 216

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) the requirements do not speak to each other.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) do need counselling. What should the drop-in centres do? Just give food or something more?

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) should not discriminate against the mama giving food.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) some of these sound like prevention and early intervention.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) drop-in centres should be doing prevention and early intervention.  As much as the centre is registered to provide for orphans, but we provide for children that are poor as well.  Definition is not clear enough.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) most of the drop-in centres run these programmes.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) in reality we have a range. 

Drop-in centre provides basic services but can register to provide prevention and early intervention services.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) so you are saying you will not fund the mama.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) lots of state funds have been embezzled.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) flag the issue, move on and we’ll come back to this.

Clause 217

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) technical error line 9 cross-reference should be (2)
No submissions

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) please note that what ever the decision on 215 and 216 is we could see consequential amendments.

Clause 218
Public submissions
National Health and Welfare Council: Full Gospel Church of God in SA
Referred to previous version of the Bill.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) technical error line 27 change person to “person or organisation”.

Clause 219

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) line 40 insert “the province in”

No submissions
No comments

Lana Pietersen (Minister's Parliamentary Liaison) in s219(4) renewal of registration it seems as if the only thing the centre has to do is apply before the 90 day deadline.  Should be some monitoring function.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) even for an application for renewal the centre must comply with the norms and standards see s220.

Decision reword (4)

(obligation should be Head of Department “must consider the application for renewal within 90 days”).

Clause 220

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we may have to split the definition of drop-in centres.

Janet Semple (DA) (d) and (e) are not consistent. 

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) a drop-in centre is different to all the other things we have considered, yet these clauses are all the same.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) any programme must be assessed.

Decision no change

Clause 221
No submissions
No comments

Decision no change

Clause 222
No submissions

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) clarification on difference between (1)(e) and (2)

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) even if you are a fit and proper person there may be other reasons why you should not run a drop-in centre.

Decision no change

Clause 223
No submissions
No comments

Decision no change

Clause 224

Public submission
National Health and Welfare Council: Full Gospel Church of God in SA

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) 224(2)(b) this is the first time there is acknowledgement that there are different types of drop-in centre.

Clause 225
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (3) change “social worker” to “social service professional”.

Public submissions – recommendations not read out – Researcher summarised the positions by saying.

They want municipalities not to be delegated functions.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) the delegation is very ad hoc, there is no uniform standard. Sometimes there is a good delegation and sometimes it is a good function.  In Cape Town there was campaign to remove the children from the streets.  In Bloemfontein and Johannesburg consolidating services. Tswane deal with each organisation individually no plan for services no consistency. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what is the view of the department in view of the allegation that is being levelled at municipalities?  Municipalities have resources all resources should be mobilised.  These are the simplest interventions.

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) now that I’m not going to see street children and basic services in the same sentence.  Then I don’t have a problem with the delegation.  If it is not just for children on the streets then councils should be monitoring, ward councillors can even be involved.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) it gives municipalities something to do in terms of the continuum of care of children.  They need a role to play.  It would be wise to increase their involvement rather than decreasing it.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) it will not be automatic, it will be done on the basis of whether the municipality has capacity.  This a prevention and early intervention mechanism if there is a problem then the municipality can refer the children to the province.

Clause 226

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) in case a manager is the abuser a person employed at the centre is added.

Lana Pietersen (Minister's Parliamentary Liaison) why is death always mentioned first?

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) like that throughout the Bill.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) can be changed.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) yes

Change as follows
If a child dies in a drop in centre the manager or person employed at
(1) manager or person employed must report
(2) Head of Department must investigate abuse or serious injury
(3) police must investigate unless they are satisfied that the death was of natural causes

Public submission
Young Insights for Planning (YIP)

Clause 227

No public submissions
No comments

Decision – no change

The debate returned to the policy issues

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) what is a drop-in centre?  Should there be different types of drop-in centre?  If so is the Gogo who runs the soup and homework be a type of drop-in centre or should she be shut down.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) there are lots of people running these poverty alleviation services.  These people rely on gifts and donations.

There are other types like the ones run by Child Welfare where they have proper facilities and they are funded by the department.

Formal drop-in centres provide food and wide range of psycho-social support services.  They even get a subsidy of R9 per child per day. Some provinces give less. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) R9 cannot cover the cost of groceries and salaries.  In contrast secure care centres get R2000. R9 per day is very little same amount about

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) and then we prescribe so many standards. Problem is inconsistency they get told you will get R9.  Maintain registers then it takes months to get the funding.

We saw a lot of early childhood development centres that do not even qualify for the conditional registration.

They don’t get support when they report and then the child does not come back.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) The whole idea of having cumbersome regulations to meet are over the top.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we have done away with the pay per day.  Drop-in centres now get programme funding.  Provinces have been asked to fund during the

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) R9 is based on a partnership – if we are prioritising poor areas. 

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we have asked National Treasury to give us more money so that we can increase to R11 and then R18.  That includes 2.4 million children.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) if the gogo must be accredited to prove that she can look after the children whilst they are with her.  Why still insist that they have to meet all these strict regulations? If that is the case we are missing the point about tackling poverty and vulnerability. Before we close her down or

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) the poverty alleviation programme misses the point, because they became too bureaucratic.  The problem is we do not recognise our own context, we want to copy the west without copying smartly. What happens if it is the traditional community forum, how do they get funding.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) we need to give legal recognition to these kinds of programme.

Musa Mbere (DSD) is the objection about management committee?

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) broader than that.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) all the strict regulations.

Musa Mbere (DSD) traditionally when you do something as a community, you do not do it as an individual.  We cannot have individuals all over.  Even if it is not about

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) communities are no longer there in all areas.  Even the Amakhosi are not fulfilling their functions because they are earning a salary somewhere.  We are talking about drop-in centres not places where children are sleeping.

Person should be able to register the programmes separately. 

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) are you going to be able to run a programme anywhere other than in a registered facility?

Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu (ANC) register the facility separately.  A legoktla is a registered organisation it can run programmes separately.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) recognising the developmental needs of the community.  Problem is that we over complicated drop-in centres, we need to provide for well-resourced NGOs and the Gogos.

Amendment of section 250 of Act 38 of 2005
No submissions
No comments

Amendment of section 304 of Act 38 of 2005

No submissions
Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) just explain those
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) read out the section from the Act
Only certain persons allowed to provide adoption service
250. (1) No person may provide adoption services except—
(a) a child protection organisation accredited in terms of section 251 to provide adoption services;
(b) an adoption social worker;
(c) the Central Authority in the case of inter-country adoptions; or
(d) a child protection organisation accredited in terms of section 259 to provide inter-country adoption services.
(2) Subsection (1) does not prohibit the rendering of professional services in connection with the adoption of a child by a lawyer, psychologist or a member of any other profession.


Decision no changes

Amendment of section 305 of Act 38 of 2005
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) explained that section 305 of Children's Act relates to offences.

Must add child labour and corporal punishment (s139 (2) and s141(1)).

Explained (f) offence if someone running a programme or a facility that is obliged to register is guilty of an offence.

No comments

Meeting adjourned

Appendix:
16^th October 2007: Decisions on the Children's Amendment Bill

S195
No amendments

S196
NO DECISION

S197
DECISION – amend as follows:

S197 (3) [With the exception of partial care facilities] All child and youth care centres operated or managed by a national [or] provincial state or local department responsible for social development or local government, all [partial care facilities] child and youth care centres operated or managed by a national or provincial state department or local government must comply with subsection (1)

S198

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) line 33 cross-reference should be s197.

DECISION reformulate with conditional registration.

S199
Decision – reorder the clauses so that notice of enforcement comes after application.

S200
DECISION check 200(1) (c)(ii)

S201

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) a201(2)(e) add “training” line 7

Louis Nzimande (ANC) does (3) fit in that place.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) fit and proper person is defined by cross-reference to s220.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) yes this is the cross-reference to the paedophile register.  Do not want to send our children to the lions.

Public submissions
NACCW

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) there is no such thing as a designated social service professional – a designated social worker works for the Department of Social Development.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) will you have enough social workers?  Will there be enough capacity if it is restricted to social workers?  Must ensure that there are enough staff to perform the tasks but not overburden them. Is it possible to introduce a new term, “designated social service professional”?

Louis Nzimande (ANC) how far is the implementation of the human resources plan.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) the costing is not just about the money it is also about the warm bodies.

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) social service professionals could assist but at the moment they are not formally registered and recognised.

Adv. Mike Masutha (ANC) no difficulty in restricting this to social workers.  Must ensure that social workers are not over burdened.  When we refer to alternative workers must ensure that this does not cover social workers.

S202
Decision limit conditional registration to one year maximum.
“prescribed period not exceeding one year”.

s203
No changes

S204 cancellation of registration
NO Decision

S205
Decision re-word to oblige child and youth care centres to inform the department if they close.

S206
No changes

S207
DECISION INSERT TIME FRAME

S208
Decision insert s208(1) qualify the obligation to establish a children’s forum as part of the management board “dependant on the age, maturity and ability of children to participate in decision-making”

S209
Decision move s209(4) to norms and standards.

S210.
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remove “by regulation” in line 48, unnecessary it is implied in prescribed.

S211
Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (3) change “give advice” to “assist”

S212
Decision 212 (c) change matters to conditions.

Chapter 14

S213

Change the definition of drop-in centres – remove “street children” and free to leave

S214

Dr Maria Mabetoa (DSD) we must add DPLG to list of departments that must be consulted.

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) remove “civil society” that is a drafting error, it is covered by interested parties.

S215

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (2)(a) typo to be corrected “management” should be “managed”.

NO Decision on may and must

S216

NO decision

S217

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) technical error line 9 cross-reference should be (2)
No submissions

S218

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) technical error line 27 change person to “person or organisation”.

S219

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) line 40 insert “the province in”

Decision reword (4)

(obligation should be Head of Department “must consider the application for renewal within 90 days”).

S220

Decision no change

S221

Decision no change

S222

Decision no change

S223

Decision no change

S224

NO Decision

S225

Ronel van Zyl (SALRC) (3) change “social worker” to “social service professional”.

S226

Change as follows
If a child dies in a drop in centre the manager or person employed at
(1) manager or person employed must report
(2) Head of Department must investigate abuse or serious injury
(3) police must investigate unless they are satisfied that the death was of natural causes

S227

Decision – no change

Amendment of section 250 of Act 38 of 2005

Decision no changes

Amendment of section 304 of Act 38 of 2005

Decision no changes

Amendment of section 305 of Act 38 of 2005

Add child labour and corporal punishment (s139 (2) and s141(1)).