Prevention of Organised Crime Amendment Bill [B2b-99]: Discussion & Voting; Military Veterans’ Affairs Bill [B13-99]; Arms and A

SECURITY & JUSTICE SELECT COMMITTEE
15 March 1999
PREVENTION OF ORGANISED CRIME AMENDMENT BILL [B2B-99]: DISCUSSION & VOTING; MILITARY VETERANS’ AFFAIRS BILL [B13-99]; ARMS AND AMMUNITION AMENDMENT BILL (B 32-99): BRIEFING

Documents handed out:
Military Veterans’ Affairs Bill [B13-99]
Prevention of Organised Crime Amendment Bill [B2B-99]
Arms and Ammunition Amendment Bill [B32-99]

SUMMARY
The committee did not pass these three bills for varying reasons. Voting is slotted for 17 March 1999.

MINUTES
The chairperson, Mr. Moosa (ANC), asked the secretary to make a note of all the members of Parliament not present. The list of names would be sent to the presiding officer, the chief whip and the different parties.

Arms and Ammunition Amendment Bill (B32-99)
The presentation was done by Dr Benny Fanaroff (Secretariat of Safety and Security), Director de Karis (Legal Adviser from the South African Police Service) and Mr J van Lill [Provincial Head: Firearm Act Control: WC (Legal Services)].

Dr Fanaroff said that the problem that South Africa faces is the proliferation of firearms. Availability contributes to violent crime. The circulation of illegal firearms prospers due to legally owned firearms being lost or stolen, state-owned firearms being lost or stolen and illegal firearms that are brought across the borders. The majority of firearm crimes are committed by individuals known to the victim. What starts off as a fight, ends in a murder or aggravated assault. A survey done by the Department of Health indicated that 54% of unnatural deaths in Soweto were homicides, 72% of which were caused by gunshot. Last year 225 police officers were murdered. 75% of these murders took place while the officers were off-duty. They were either under the influence of alcohol and picked a fight with someone or were attacked and their firearms stolen.

Public hearings will be held when the whole Arms and Ammunition Act is re-drafted in July and submitted to the new Parliament. In the new Bill major action will be taken for the possession of illegal firearms. Currently the law is not enforced well enough, and the South African Police Service and the Department of Justice want to rectify this with the new Bill.

Spouses, hunters, and sports people will be taken into account in the new Bill. The drafting team is in contact with all the major role players, for instance Gun Free South Africa and SAGA.

Section 8(1)
Gangsters with criminal records do not qualify for firearm licences. They therefore use Section 8 (1) of the present Act to borrow guns as this section allows a licence holder to lend a gun to a person who has not been screened as long as there is a letter of consent. This is substantially misused and creates a huge problem in the Western Cape, as well as in the rest of the country. Firearms are borrowed with the consent of the legal owner and used for crimes. Currently it is too easy to borrow a firearm and it is completely legal. The South African Police are pushing for the amendment of section 8(1) of Act 75 of 1969 to be fast-tracked as the loopholes in section 8(1) promote a breakdown of law and order.

Mr de Karis said that under the new section an individual is only permitted to have a firearm if he/she has a licence according to section 8(1)(a). The exception is when he/she does not have a licence but has written permission from the legal owner and uses the firearm on land belonging to the person giving the permission section 8(1)(a)(ii). The whole aim is to take legal firearms out of public arena.

Adv de Ville (Freedom Front) asked if the farming communities were consulted regarding this section. He mentioned the example of a spouse not having a licence. Dr Fanaroff said that a firearm ought to be locked away in a safe and that an unlicenced spouse could use it during an emergency. He/she would probably not be prosecuted as common law will protect him/her against a conviction. In the drafting of the new Bill the issue of spouses and the situation in the farming communities will have to be contemplated in depth. There is a proposal for multiple licensing for the same firearm and this will become definite in the new legislation.

Mr Radue (NNP) asked why the committee had to wait until the new Bill to have more "spouse-friendly" legislation. Dr Fanaroff replied that, for the present, it would unfortunately be an inconvenience but with more loopholes the gangsters always find a way to circumvent and exploit legislation.

Mr van Lill said that a hunter must have a firearm licence, as well as the person who drives a motor vehicle at rallies. Currently 4 million firearm licences are issued to 2 million people. A year and a half ago a program was launched to change the mindset of police officers. A designated police officer was responsible for reporting all cases opened for loss of firearms. Checks and balances were implemented at national level.

Mr van Lill stressed that the police wanted the amendment of the Bill, as well as the community. He read excerpts from various letters sent to him to highlight the problem with Section 8. Commissioner Daniels reported incidents where letters of consent were found at roadblocks together with firearms. Another situation that occurred quite often was the trading of firearms for drugs – this was also done with letters of consent. One drug lord had 3 different firearms and 3 letters of consent.

Adv de Ville said that there definitely was a difference between applying for a driver’s licence and applying for a firearm licence.

Mr Surty (ANC) suggested that the English wording had to be brought in line with the Afrikaans in line 25 of section 8(1d) – the word "sufficient" had to be replaced with "complete". Director de Karis said that he would take it up with the state law adviser.

Ms Lubidla (ANC) asked whether police officers who were no longer in the Police Service automatically kept their licences. Director de Karis said that police officers do not have firearm licences, but that they are employed by the state and issued firearms. When they leave the service, they have to hand in their firearms. Previously ex-police officers could buy their firearms from the Service, but with the 1997 policy the state would not supply firearms anymore.

Ms Lubidla asked whether licence holders were to be screened again. Director de Karis said that the new policy would entail re-licensing every 5 years. All licence-holders will be screened to check who were not eligible for licences anymore. Security companies are issued with licences. They then place firearms with officers. Competency testing will be introduced that will apply to everyone. The security field however presents a problem.

Mr Radue said that committee experienced a great deal of confusion and uncertainty about the Bill and that the public had to be warned of the implications in time.

Director de Karis said that the amendments were forwarded to all the role players and that the recent amendment had drawn attention in the media already. The public was being sensitized. The Office of the Minister has a media campaign, and there will be a police campaign too.

The chairperson said that a lot more needs to be discussed on the Arms and Ammunition Amendment Bill, but that the agenda was tight and that the committee had to move on. If the provinces had no problems, the Bill could be passed on Wednesday 17 March 1999. If the provinces have amendments to discuss, the voting will take place the following Tuesday. The chairperson said that the aim was to achieve minimum amendments in this short session.

Military Veterans’ Affairs Amendment Bill (B 13-99)
Adv Tjale read 1(1) to 1(3) of the memorandum on the objects of the Military Veterans’ Affairs Bill of 1999 in order to give the committee background information. Rear-Admiral Bakkes of the SA National Defence Force Part Time Force Council, continued with a short presentation on the structure of the Bill.

The President was designated to act as Patron-in-Chief. Admiral Bakkes said that there were 25 military veterans’ organisations nationally. Currently military veterans are going to different departments for assistance because there is no specific office for their needs. The Office for Military Veterans will come into existence and assist veterans. An Advisory Board on Military Veterans’ Affairs will also be established. Other provisions would be a database with information on all the veterans. Furthermore Military Veterans’ Development Programmes will be initiated. There will be reparation, health care, occupational and heritage programmes.

Admiral Bakkes briefly explained sections in the Bill and stressed that Clause 3(a-g), Fundamental Principles, was of importance.

Mr Surty asked what would happen if a member of the Advisory Board resigned or became deceased. He also suggested that the regulations should be tabled in Parliament. Admiral Bakkes replied that he would take note of these comments and would immediately contact the state law adviser regarding them. He said that the regulations were not referred back to Parliament, but left up to the Executive Committee. Mr Surty replied that if there was no provision in the Act, that a vacuum could be created. Admiral Bakkes again said that he would take it up with the state law adviser.

Mr Moosa said that this Bill would most likely be passed on Wednesday 17 March.

Prevention Of Organised Crime Amendment Bill (B2B-99)
Mr de Lange (parliamentary law advisor ) said that three amendments were proposed – Clauses 10,16 and 19. The committee found these acceptable.

Mr Selfe (DP) indicated that the committee had to look at the implications of the recently passed Public Finance Management Bill on Clause 37 of this Bill.

Clause 37 presented a problem regarding section 69A of Act 121 of 1998. The bill states that cabinet can allocate money for specific purposes from Prevention of Organised Crime Fund. However this Fund is an account within the National Revenue Fund which can only have a direct charge against it if authrised by an Act of Parliament and this Act has to be listed in Schedule 5 of the Public Finance Management Bill.

Mr Surty said that it was difficult to keep the Bill in line with the practice of the Finance Bill. He suggested that Mr de Lange had to speak with the Minister of Finance. Mr de Lange and Mr Moosa were to contact the necessary officials in the Department of Finance. The Finance Bill cannot be amended on the NCOP, but only at National level. Mr Moosa asked if the Minister of Justice was aware of the situation. Mr de Lange had to inform him.

After consultation with the Department of Finance, if there are no problems, this Bill will be passed on Wednesday 17 March.

The Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill [B7-99] has been withdrawn and the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill will be discussed the following week.

The chairperson said that the 24 March 1999 was the last day for bills to be passed. The Military Discipline Bill discussion will be on 17 March 1999. This is an important bill attached to a current court case.

The Prevention of Organised Crime Amendment Bill and the Military Veterans’ Affairs Amendment Bill will not be debated. The Arms and Ammunition Amendment Bill will be debated. The chairperson asked Mr Surty to inform the Whip. Each party would be allocated 5 minutes allowing for a thirty minute debate.

The meeting adjourned.