Committee Minutes

Meeting report

Opening remarks

The Chairperson said that, after meeting with the Chair of Chairs, it had become clear that addressing the minutes had been impossible due to time constraints and the duration of meetings. This meeting was called to focus on the minutes. He also requested a moment of silence to honour Ms Thabiso Sikwane, a broadcaster, and Dr Jessica Mbangeni, a renowned singer, musician, and church bishop, both of whom had passed away on 31 August.

The Chairperson then highlighted recent developments reported in the media, including a memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed between the Department of Sport, Arts, and Culture (DSAC) and the Department of Basic Education (DBE). He welcomed the MoU, and suggested that it would be important to summon the Department to the Committee to provide a full overview of the memorandum and its implementation plan. He emphasised the need for the Committee to be informed about the various stakeholders involved, such as unions, teachers, municipalities, coaches, and development pipelines, and to ensure that the implementation reflects the Committee's expectations.

Mr E Mthethwa (EFF) thanked the Chairperson for honouring the two deceased individuals with a moment of silence. He noted that there had been a lack of consistency in recognising fallen heroes and heroines within the arts sector, often resulting in selective attention based on popularity. He advocated a more consistent approach to honouring individuals, and suggested that the Committee should lead efforts to ensure that all individuals in their sector receive appropriate recognition.

The Chairperson agreed with Mr Mthethwa's point and suggested that the Committee take the lead in ensuring consistent recognition of fallen individuals. He acknowledged that professional staff were feeding him information on this matter, and invited Members to submit their suggestions to the Committee Secretary. He commented that sometimes, these issues slipped through the cracks due to the parliamentary process and infrequent meetings. He proposed that the Committee could meet in person to address these matters, and suggested having further discussions to find a solution.

Adoption of Minutes

Minutes dated 10 July (12h00)

Ms M Mmolotsane (ANC) moved the adoption of the minutes, and Ms N Nkosi (ANC) seconded the motion. The minutes dated 10 July were approved.

Minutes dated 10 July  (12:30 – 14:30)

The Committee Secretary noted that the agenda for this section included a briefing by the DSAC on their strategic plan and performance plan for the 2024/25 financial year.

The Chairperson highlighted a section where the Chairperson’s importance was mentioned, and requested that a typo be fixed. He noted that the departmental budget should adequately address the arts and creative sector, especially since there seemed to be cuts in those areas. He suggested that the minutes should reflect that the Committee had noted these budget cuts.

On page six, he raised a point about the Mzansi Golden Economy Strategy, which was noted to have the potential to create about 60 000 jobs. He suggested that the minutes should reflect that this should be a way to ensure significant investment in the arts and creative sector, despite the observed budget cuts.

He emphasised that, in terms of the Committee’s deliberations, the Committee should note, but not necessarily concur with the Minister's position. The Committee should highlight the importance of developments relating to nutrition and the health of athletes in their recommendations. He asked the Committee Secretary to help formulate the emphasis appropriately, ensuring that the minutes reflect the Committee's focus on these areas.

Ms Mmolotsane said that the Committee had “emphasised the importance to the Minister” in the development relating to nutrition and health of athletes.

The Chairperson confirmed that this was correct, noting that the Committee had "emphasised" to the Minister.

He added that the last sentence, which stated, “The Committee noted that due to the time constraints,” should be deleted, as it was unimportant and did not address a significant matter for the Committee.

On the final page, he addressed an additional request: “For future purposes, there are many abbreviations in the minutes. It would be helpful to include a page listing these abbreviations. This would make it easier for readers and researchers, including future generations, to understand the abbreviations used.”

Ms Mmolotsane supported this suggestion, recommending that the list of abbreviations be placed on the last page to make it easy for readers to reference.

Mr Mthethwa pointed out that there was an issue with bullet point four, which had previously stated “these areas” instead of “those areas,” and requested a correction. He also noted that in bullet point six, the text should be corrected from “development” to “developments” to accurately reflect the Committee’s emphasis to the Minister.

Ms Mmolotsane moved for adoption, with amendments.

Ms Nkosi seconded the motion.

The minutes were duly adopted.

Minutes dated 12 July

The Chairperson raised a concern about page two, specifically the issue regarding the passing of Mr Stanley “Screamer” Tshabalala, where it was mentioned that the Chairperson was saddened by his passing and that the Committee extended its condolences to the family. He asked if a formal letter of condolence had been sent, and requested the Committee Secretary to obtain the necessary details, such as the address or email, to send a letter on behalf of the Sport, Arts and Culture Committee.

The Chairperson suggested that the Committee Secretary gather this information and prepare a letter expressing condolences in the future. He also proposed discussing at a later stage the possibility of sending a small gesture, such as flowers, depending on the budget. He emphasised that this should be discussed further, in line with the budget, but noted that a letter with the Committee’s letterhead would already be a meaningful gesture for the family. He stressed that such actions would demonstrate that the Committee was taking the lead in expressing condolences.

The Chairperson referred to point 3.1.1 on the third page, noting that there was a concern that the approach taken made some artists feel as if they had done something wrong by requesting funds. He acknowledged that while this was a valid concern, it was also important to highlight that they should not feel intimidated or threatened by having their names published, as this process was meant to be open and transparent.

He commented that he did not really want this included in the minutes. While there were concerns, it was crucial to emphasise that artists should not feel intimidated or threatened by having their names published. He asked Members to indicate if they disagreed with this stance.

Mr Mthethwa responded that the Committee had highlighted that artists should not feel intimidated or threatened by having their names published, as the intention was to improve transparency. He expressed concern about confirming the process as transparent while investigations were ongoing within the Department, suggesting that this might create an impression of commitment to transparency before it actually existed. He recommended being cautious on this issue.

The Chairperson then addressed the second-to-last issue in the minutes. He recalled that it was either Ms Nkosi, Ms Mmolotsane, Ms Ngcobo or Mr Mthethwa who had emphasised the need to support the Pan South African Language Board (PanSALB), which had already produced two books in Indigenous languages for maths and science. Someone had suggested that Parliament should assist with funding, though he could not recall who. Further, it had been noted that there was a lack of interpreters and a proposal for Parliament to consider proper funding for PanSALB. The Chairperson asked if anyone remembered who had made this suggestion and whether they could include it in the minutes. He expressed concern about PanSALB’s funding and interpreter issues, and asked for views on this matter.

The Committee Secretary responded that if PanSALB needed assistance with funding, it would not come from Parliament, but rather from the Department. She clarified that interpreting services in Parliament were not linked to PanSALB.

Ms Fiona Clayton, Committee Researcher, added that the interpreters in Parliament were part of the Knowledge and Information Services (KIS) division. She noted that there had been an ongoing problem with insufficient officials to handle translation and interpretation services. She clarified that PanSALB was not responsible for these services, indicating that these issues were separate.

The Chairperson asked Members for their views on whether to leave the matter unresolved, acknowledging that there was an issue with PanSALB. He mentioned that if Members could not recall the specifics, it might be best to leave it as was, noting that he might have been in another meeting when it was discussed.

On page five, he said he did not understand the terminology in the bullet point which was nearly at the end of the paragraph. He asked for clarification of the last part of the sentence, specifically regarding the terms “under P component” and “place under what.” He requested the Committee Secretary to explain this part to him.

The Committee Secretary said she was trying to understand the term "P component" and requested assistance, expressing uncertainty about its meaning.

Ms Clayton clarified that the "P component" referred to the amount allocated for public municipal facilities.

The Chairperson then suggested placing the term "P component" in brackets next to its definition to clarify its meaning, especially when dealing with complex terminology.

Ms Clayton added that it was a percentage of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant (MIG), not the MIG itself. She clarified that a percentage of the MIG was allocated to this component.

The Chairperson agreed, indicating that 5% should be listed under the "P component" amount, and asked to include the reference to the MIG in brackets next to it.

Mr Mthethwa noted that the "P component" referred to the capital funding allocated for public facilities and was distributed by the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs (CoGTA) under the MIG for municipal development of sporting facilities.

The Chairperson agreed and stressed the importance of verifying this with the Department when they explain the implementation of the MoU. He suggested requesting details on both the current and previous MoUs, to understand their impact.

Mr L Jacobs (DA) moved the adoption of the minutes, and Ms Mmolotsane seconded.

The minutes were duly adopted.

Minutes dated 12 July 2024 (15:30 – 16:00)

Ms Nkosi raised a concern that her name was missing from the attendance list, despite her having attended the meeting.

The Chairperson acknowledged the issue and suggested checking the attendance against the signature list from the meeting. He mentioned that if her name was not on the minutes, it might not be recorded on the attendance list, and she would need to sign it.

The Chairperson noted a minor issue on page two regarding an additional recommendation. He asked Members to review the additional recommendation that the Committee should join meetings with the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education regarding school sports and corporate governance. He emphasised that while this recommendation had been made and discussed, it reflected well on the Committee's efforts. Sometimes, there were discrepancies in what happened in the Committees and what was reported. They should feel positive about what they have achieved as a Committee.

Adv S Salie (Al Jama-ah) said she completely agreed with the Chairperson regarding the issues related to the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) concerning basic education and sports, arts, and culture. She emphasised the importance of addressing these matters surrounding sports in schools. She also highlighted that, in their initial meetings, they discussed the need for sister portfolios to collaborate to improve structures in schools and communities. Referring to the first DSAC Portfolio Committee meeting, as recorded on the YouTube link, she noted that this issue had been previously addressed in general meetings. She underlined that this was not a new issue and stressed the significance of recognising that the sport, arts and culture portfolio had been at the forefront of addressing these concerns.

The Chairperson responded positively, and directed attention to the wording about understanding, asking Adv Salie to provide the Committee's recommendation.

Adv Salie indicated that the Committee had, from the onset, strongly recommended that sister portfolios work together to improve infrastructure both in communities and schools for the upliftment and empowerment of the most marginalised. She emphasised the importance of focusing on the most marginalised in communities. She also recommended that it was crucial to document these efforts accurately, as future generations -- whether children or grandchildren -- would likely refer back to these minutes. She highlighted the importance of providing links and dates to meetings, especially those that were recorded and available on platforms like YouTube. She stressed that vital information surrounding the hard work and dedication of the staff and Members of the Portfolio Committee was not being fully captured in the minutes.

The Chairperson agreed with Adv Salie, stating that this process would be recorded and serve as an anecdotal reference of what had transpired, demonstrating that the Committee was actively engaged. He acknowledged that,while some might politically take advantage of the situation, the Committee, as a collective, had already initiated significant work. He noted that the links and minutes were available to showcase their progress.

Adv Salie concurred, adding that they were working on adopting multiple agendas at the moment. She suggested that her statements and speeches, which she had documented, could be referenced to provide an inclusive account for the entire portfolio, particularly the importance of sister portfolios collaborating to improve infrastructure in communities. She added that she would send the wording through later.

The Chairperson said that the matter should be dealt with immediately, and asked Adv Salie if it pertained to the current item.

Adv Salie confirmed that it was relevant to the item, but it would also touch on other matters. She reiterated that the Committee strongly recommended that sister portfolios collaborate in improving infrastructure in schools and communities, and agreed to leave it at that.

Ms H Mbhele (MK) moved the motion for adoption, and Ms Mmolotsane seconded. The minutes were duly adopted.

Minutes dated 23 July

The Chairperson asked to review the attendance and requested Members to take note. After confirming, he raised an issue under 3.2, noting a grammatical error in the sentence about the key insights on community projects. He pointed out that the sentence mentioned, "she looked at the conditional grant," but it was unclear who "she" referred to. He suggested clarifying by specifying that Ms Sithebe had put emphasis on the conditional grant for the community library and its services, along with the challenges faced.

He referred to section 3.3, where the Committee inquired whether government was still pursuing the National Development Plan (NDP), given that DSAC seemed to lag behind in implementing the programme. He recalled that Mr Mthethwa had expressed concern over this issue, and proposed amending the wording to reflect that the Committee had enquired if the government was still pursuing the NDP.

A Member expressed her agreement with the Chairperson, stating that, as a Committee, they should not be providing answers themselves. She emphasised that when a Member raised an inquiry, it represented a question from the entire Committee. Therefore, it was not appropriate for the Committee to respond on its own behalf, unless the Department or the minister was present to provide assurances. All inquiries should be directed to the Department, and she agreed with the overall sentiment.

The Chairperson acknowledged her point and proceeded to address the next matter, which related to underperforming entities. He highlighted that certain entities were not performing as expected, leading to fruitless and wasteful expenditure. He stressed the seriousness of this issue, and reminded the Committee that when dealing with the budget, they had never before influenced it in Parliament, but they had raised concerns with the DG regarding this matter.

He referred to a prior discussion on mass participation, emphasising the Committee’s strong opposition to certain one-day events and programmes like "Love Life." He reiterated that these concerns needed to be addressed in future budgets, and were reflected in the Department's planning. He stressed the importance of documenting this for the Committee's oversight. However, he acknowledged that the wording in the report, which mentioned the Committee reviewing strategic planning, was unclear. He clarified that the Department, not the Committee, needed to review its strategic planning, with clear timeframes attached. He specifically pointed out the sentence on page four that stated, "The Committee might need to review," and suggested it be corrected to "The Department might need to review."

He further noted that this issue aligned with a point raised earlier by Adv Salie, affirming that the Committee must influence these changes, and it should be properly recorded.

Moving to page five, the Chairperson raised concern over the second bullet point, which mentioned "an unqualified audit with findings moving from a general to forensic audit." He asked for clarification from the Committee Secretary, as the meaning of the sentence was unclear.

Ms Clayton proposed that the Committee note that the Department had received an unqualified audit with findings, and suggested the Committee inquire about what was needed for the audit to move from a general audit to a forensic audit. She sought the Chairperson’s confirmation on whether this phrasing made sense.

The Chairperson questioned what was required to transition from a general to a forensic audit. He clarified that the Committee had noted the Department had received an unqualified audit with findings and expressed concern about the potential for the audit to move to a forensic one. He requested further clarification on the type of audit received by the Department.

Ms Clayton explained that the Department had consistently received unqualified audits, particularly concerning financial matters.

The Chairperson responded by proposing a revision, stating: "The Committee noted that the DSAC received an unqualified audit with findings and raised concerns over the Department’s persistent underperformance, which could lead to a forensic audit." He suggested removing the remainder of the sentence and focusing on the concerns of persistent non-performance, rather than a forensic audit.

He then moved on to page six, where reference was made to the Auditor-General of Africa (AGSA) providing an update on the Sarah Baartman Project during the budgetary review. He emphasised that a memory note should be made of this, encouraging the Committee to conduct oversight on the project.

He mentioned an upcoming report on Tuesday concerning the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure (DPWI). He advised the Committee to carefully review the report and to make cross-references when the Auditor-General’s report arrived, to effectively address any issues.

He then shifted focus to the impact of events funded by the DSAC on broader society. The Chairperson raised concerns about the large sums of money being spent on these events, questioning their value and whether there was any tangible benefit. He proposed that the Department reconsider mass participation and one-day events, noting that these activities were often duplicative. He stressed that the funds allocated to such events could be better used to support other entities in need. He referred to Ms Mbele's earlier remarks about using these resources to address safety concerns for vulnerable individuals.

He reiterated that the Department should reconsider its focus on one-day events and mass participation, as there was too much duplication in these efforts.

Mr Mthethwa proposed adding a permanent item to the agenda to review matters arising from previous meetings, ensuring follow-up on actions agreed upon. He also expressed concern that minutes might not fully reflect discussions, emphasising their importance as accurate records that could be scrutinised in a court of law.

The Chairperson said he agreed, and still maintained his stance on one-day events. He liked what Mr Mthethwa said about matters arising. The minutes would be used in future.

Mr Mthethwa concurred with the Chairperson and said that the Committee Secretary should be more aligned with what has happened in the future.

Mr G Kgabo (ANC) expressed concerns about the meeting being delayed due to extended discussions on the approval of minutes. He suggested that it would be better to avoid misunderstandings and misinterpretations by having a resolution tracker in place. This would allow the Committee Secretary to provide accurate records of what had transpired. He also noted that there was a plenary session scheduled for 10 am, and he did not want to miss it due to the meeting running over time. He emphasised the importance of establishing a clear resolution process and ensuring that future meetings were conducted efficiently, with due consideration of scheduled events and time constraints.

The Chairperson responded by acknowledging Mr Kgabo’s concerns, noting that he might have joined the meeting late. He assured Mr Kgabo that sufficient time would be allocated for Members to attend their subsequent meetings. He agreed that the minutes needed to be handled correctly and proposed moving forward with a proposal and seconder for the current agenda. He also mentioned that there were still three meetings left, and that the Committee Secretary needed to ensure that the minutes were signed off and tabled properly. He suggested concluding the current discussion to allow Members to attend their other commitments.

Ms Nkosi moved the adoption of the minutes. Mr L Mokoena (EFF) seconded the move for the adoption.

The Chairperson thanked the Members for their time and participation, noting that the minutes of only three meetings remained. He expressed his satisfaction with the meeting, and reminded Members to attend their 10 am commitments. He also wished everyone a good Friday, and adjourned the meeting.

Before leaving, Ms Nkosi requested that, in future, all Committee Members be given the opportunity to receive tickets for events, rather than limiting the allocation to only a few Members. She suggested that it should be up to the individual Members to decide whether they wished to attend, rather than having a fixed number of tickets.

The Chairperson agreed with Ms Nkosi's request, emphasising the importance of ensuring that tickets were fairly allocated and not misused. He stressed that tickets should be given to Committee Members and professional staff, as their presence at events contributed to the Committee’s work. He also mentioned that he would address the issue with relevant entities to avoid personal misuse of tickets and to ensure proper representation. He highlighted the need for professional staff to be included in these opportunities, as their observations and analyses were valuable. He apologised for any confusion regarding ticket allocations and gave an assurance that the issue would be resolved.

The Chairperson reiterated the importance of fair representation and effective communication within the Committee.

The meeting was adjourned.