Election of Chairperson; Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities Annual Performance Plan 2024/25; with Ministry

Meeting report

Election of Chairperson
 
Ms Neliswa Nobatana, the Committee Secretary, introduced herself and described her role. Today, Members would elect the Chairperson of the Committee. She then filled out the attendance register and called for nominations for the position of Chairperson.

A Member nominated Ms M Dunjwa (ANC) for Chairperson, and this was seconded.

Ms Nobatana asked Ms Dunjwa if she accepted the nomination, and she responded in the affirmative.

In the absence of further nominations, Ms Dunjwa was thus chosen to be the official Chairperson of the Committee.

Introductions

The Chairperson greeted and welcomed everyone, including the Minister and Deputy Minister. She thanked everyone for the nomination, and said she hoped they could all work together for the benefit of South Africa. She outlined the agenda for the meeting. She acknowledged that they had received the annual performance plan (APP) only in the morning. The missing item from the agenda was the introductions from the Department, led by the Minister and Director-General. Thereafter, they would allow an overview from the Minister. After the presentation from the Department, they would ask questions and then adopt the report. Tomorrow, they would table the budget vote, and this could not be postponed. She handed over to the Minister.

Ms Sindisiwe Chikunga, Minister of Women, Youth and People with Disabilities (DWYPD), congratulated the new Chairperson. She was hopeful for the future and working together with the Committee. It was important that they worked together.

The Chairperson interjected to say that she was sensitive to sounds of chatter and movement during the commentary of a Member or official. She asked for respect for the current speaker.

Ms S Khawula (EFF) interjected (speaking isiZulu throughout) to ask if the Minister could say what she was the Minister of. This elicited some laughter.

The Minister said that she was in the midst of introducing herself. She introduced herself, saying she was from Mpumalanga and had been a Member of Parliament (MP) since 2004, serving on several committees. She had currently been appointed as the Minister of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities.

Ms Mapaseka Letsike, Deputy Minister of Women, Youth and People with Disabilities, congratulated the Chairperson and introduced herself. This was her first time in Parliament. She is a Member of the ANC, and was grateful for the opportunity.

Adv Mikateko Maluleke, Director-General (DG), DWYPD, introduced herself and said that women, youth and persons with disabilities made up the majority of the population. She introduced the other members of her team, along with their roles.

The Chairperson mentioned that they had forgotten to introduce the Committee staff, and asked the staff to introduce themselves. This was done individually.

The Minister began to provide an overview, but Ms Khawula interjected (in isiZulu) to ask that the Members be given a chance to introduce themselves properly.

A Member interjected to say (in isiXhosa) that Ms Khawula could begin this process.

Ms Khawula (in isiZulu) said she was happy to meet the Ministry. She was happy to be part of the Committee and hear the people's cries.

Ms N Gasa (MK), Ms K Khakhau (DA), Ms A Khanyile (DA), Ms T Chauke-Adonis (ANC),
Mr N Tshotetsi (ANC), Dr T Letlape (ActionSA), Ms J Petersen (PA), and Ms B Machi (IFP) introduced themselves.

Ms Khawula interjected to say that she had been deployed by the EFF, and this was met with laughter.

The Chairperson (in isiXhosa) said that she too would indicate that she was deployed by the ANC. She mentioned that the visitors should introduce themselves when they have physical meetings. She called on the visitors to introduce themselves and this was done. She handed over to the Minister for an overview.

Minister's overview

Minister Chikunga said the Department took their tasks very seriously. They would debate tomorrow on the Budget Vote. They still had priorities outstanding, as the President had not yet outlined them. They would re-visit their plans once the President had given the State of the Nation Address (SONA). They would use the priorities of the Sixth Parliament for now.

The Department consisted of four programmes:

1. administration;
2. mainstreaming women’s rights and advocacy;
3. monitoring, evaluation, research and co-ordination, and;
4. mainstreaming youth and persons with disabilities’ rights and advocacy.

This Department was not properly resourced. They were working with a budget of R1 billion, and R797. 8 million was earmarked for transfers to two entities. This left them with R209 million for remuneration and operations, which meant that certain programmes would have to make do with this allocation. For gender-based violence (GBV) programmes, they had only R5 million for the whole year, of which R3.3 million would go to remuneration. This meant they were left with only R1.7m to work with on GBV. The Committee should not have high expectations, as they had a low budget and would consult with National Treasury (NT). They would do their best with what they had and consult with other departments. They were still new to this but felt ready to begin the journey. The programmes cut across all departments and they therefore required resources.

She handed over to the Director-General to give the presentation.

DWYPD 2024/25 annual performance plan

Adv Maluleke said the Department's plan would ensure that interventions aimed at implementing the priorities adopted by the Sixth Administration would result in the advancement, empowerment and development of women, youth and persons with disabilities by guiding policy and legislation.

The seven priorities were as follows:

• A capable developmental State
• Economic transformation and job creation,
• Education, skills and health,
• Consolidating the social wage through reliable and quality basic services,
• Spatial integration, human settlement and local government,
• Social cohesion and safe communities, and
• A better Africa and world.

The Department would be attending to the following revisions to legislative and other
mandates:

The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality (WEGE) Bill.

The proposed Bill did not aim to create new anti-gender discrimination legislation, or additional mechanisms to enforce existing legislation and policies. The purpose was to support and strengthen the implementation of the applicable legislation and to hold those persons obligated under the Constitution and existing legislation accountable for the elimination of discrimination on the basis of gender, and for empowerment measures to advance women.

Disability Rights Bill

The objective was to translate the implementation matrix of the White Paper on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities into a Bill. This would enable the domestication of international treaties.

National Youth Policy

The purpose was to impress the urgency of, and means to deal with, the pressing challenges that beset young people in all areas of their lives, key among which were unemployment, health, and lack of sufficient skills.

See attached for full presentation

Discussion

The Chairperson asked if the Minister and Department could explain all the abbreviations. She did not know what APP (Annual Performance Plan) meant.

Ms Khawula (in isiZulu) recalled that there were people who carried Bibles with them when going to Church. Here they were talking about the struggles of women, and they also spoke about money. She requested that in future, they be supplied with books/documentation.

The Chairperson thanked Ms Khawula for the reminder about the Committee not having physical copies -- she had seen hers only prior to her arrival. She requested the secretariat to ask someone to supply them with physical copies and indicate how long this would take. This was an important issue.

Ms Khakhau said that she found it very disrespectful to the Committee that they were expected to attend a meeting where they were not able to engage with the Executive. She had received the communication about the meeting only after she had slept. She wondered where the problem lay, and said this could not continue in future (she occasionally switched to Setswana). She felt like they were children who were told to get dressed, bath and go to school. They had diaries. Tomorrow, they were to present their viewpoints. She was especially upset, because the Committee was supposed to have met the previous day. Surely the Department knew that they had to be prepared earlier? Even now, she had to trust that whatever the Minister and her team were saying was true. She had not had the privilege of scrutinising the documents beforehand. This should never happen again in future, as these were important matters they were discussing.

The Chairperson acknowledged the comment.

Dr Letlape commented regarding the Minister's reference to the structural anomaly and insufficient budget. He was concerned about underfunded ministries. He wondered why the National Youth Development Agency (NYDA) would sit outside when they were creating more jobs, and after all the tasks were complete, there was less money left. Could they discuss the strategic reorganisation?

The Chairperson said they had not yet discussed what Dr Letlape was raising. They would raise these issues after receiving the report. This was the procedure. She said what Ms Khakhau had raised was important. Yesterday, they had had to cancel the meeting, but the Department was present. She hoped the Ministry would speak on this, as it was important. Although she did not approve of receiving late presentations, she understood this was beyond anyone’s control. She again asked the secretariat how long it would take to receive hard copies.

A staff member said he would try to get the copies in 20 minutes, as he was struggling with machines and they were calling for help with the screen.

The Chairperson asked when information technology (IT) personnel would arrive, and asked that they liaise with Ms Nobatana.

Minister Chikunga said she understood the frustration of the Committee. Unfortunately, no Committee was constituted yesterday -- only today -- and last Wednesday, there was no Minister either. This was their first meeting. They would have to agree on timelines for the submission of presentations to Members. It was abnormal to present a budget debate prior to the SONA. The President usually opened Parliament through the SONA. Thereafter they would outline their plans, so this was an abnormal situation. She had to sign off on presentations. These challenges were as a result of it being the first meeting. Hopefully, after this, operations would resume as per usual. She did not want to blame anyone. They would still return to present the ‘street plan’ and the APP.

The Chairperson acknowledged the raised hands of Members, but was worried about the time constraints. They would not deliberate on the overview of the Minister for now.

A Member commented (in isiZulu), saying there was no need to reprimand the person who was making an apology. They had been present the previous day without complaint. There were those persons who had arrived and then stood up and left the meeting. The Committee had not reprimanded them for this -- they had stayed and watched. Today, they heard about the meeting and attended, despite having other portfolio committee meetings to attend. They had been present yesterday and had not complained. This was who they were. The meeting agenda arrived only yesterday, and they still have not complained. This was the start of the journey, so they needed to work together to move forward.

Mr Tshotetsi agreed that they should note all the improvements to be made. He asked that they have translators present at the meetings so that they could all understand one another. This could be added to the list of improvements. Secondly, the document did exist on their electronic devices. He suggested that they proceed with the presentation while the staff arrange physical copies for the Committee, as this would help to save time.

Ms Chauke-Adonis said that she was mainly covered, adding that it was important that they receive the documentation on time. For her, it was especially important, as she was visually impaired. This needed to be a priority. She suggested that they have the documents emailed to them to read from their devices, and then the hard copies could follow later on.

The Chairperson asked if they were all in agreement. She suggested that all those who were able to read from their devices should do so now. She acknowledged the IT personnel who had just entered the meeting. She tried to open her own device, and moved to a different seat.

Deputy Minister Letsike suggested that they note all those who required hard copies and those who may not require them.

The Chairperson asked if everyone could see the presentation. Some Members did not need a physical copy. She suggested that they all look at the screen.

Ms Khawula interjected (in isiZulu) to say that the soft copies were unreliable -- they needed hard copies.

The Chairperson acknowledged the suggestion, and counted how many Members required hard copies [overlapped speech]. She would no longer allow any more comments until after the presentation. They would receive responses from the Department. She reiterated the House rules. She handed over to Director-General Maluleke, who then led the Committee through the presentation on the APP for 2024/2025.

Ms S Mrweqana (MK) interjected to suggest that they be allowed to ask questions after every two presentations so that it would not be overwhelming in the end.

The Chairperson commented that Ms Mrweqana had not apologised for being late for the meeting. She said they could not take her suggestion at the first meeting, but could do this going forward. Their first meeting had time constraints, as Members had to leave to attend other meetings. She then shared a common isiXhosa saying, which meant ‘We grow as we jump.’ All would receive copies of the presentation.

A Member said that as the presentations continued, she was making notes of questions she would ask after the presentations ended. She suggested that all adopt this method.

The Chairperson wondered why a Member was laughing at her. She was sensitive that majority of Members were new to the Committee and had been working in other spheres using different methods. She asked that they be understanding in this regard. The first meeting would have such issues. Perhaps she could try to approach the Ministry after the Department had left the meeting.

Ms Khawula (in isiZulu) reminded all that they were a Committee. She was not afraid to speak out about wrongdoing. They were all there to work. She agreed with the earlier Member, although she should have apologised for being late. They all needed to be at the same pace and not leave anyone behind. She liked the response. All should be at the same pace until the end of the five years.

Deputy Minister Letsike clarified that the presentation and the budget were one presentation, and requested that they conclude this.

The Chairperson repeated the isiXhosa saying, and called for order amongst the parties.

The presentation continued.

The Chairperson interjected to say that there was another meeting due to take place in the very same meeting room, and asked to step out to speak with the other committee's chairperson to request a few minutes' grace for questions.

The presentation continued.

Ms Khawula (in isiZulu) said that an acting Chairperson should be appointed in the absence of the Chairperson and suggested they do so now. [There was background chatter]

A Member suggested that the secretariat take on the role of acting Chairperson for this to be a smooth transition. Another Member said this was not procedural, as the acting Chairperson had to be a Member of the Committee. The former Member nominated the latter Member, and this was seconded.

The Acting Chairperson acknowledged the presentations from the Department. She called for questions.

See attached presentation for further details

Discussion

Dr Letlape said he was aware that alternate Members were not allowed to participate in voting, and asked if the same applied to discussions.

He received a response in the negative.

The Acting Chairperson acknowledged all the hands raised, and invited them to give comments.

Ms Khakhau said she had two questions to ask and requested that one of them be given in a written response to save time. The first question was for the Department to please provide an outline of the age break down of its employees. Secondly, how many of them were living with disabilities, how many were women, including non-binary people and other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

The question requiring a written response was which provincial departments would monitor women's programmes. This would help them to know where their focus was.

The Chairperson returned and said that the reason she had to go out in person was because there was a committee which would need to use their venue, and one could hear them outside making a noise. This committee had requested that the meeting end within 20 minutes. She knew they would not finish in 20 minutes but pleaded that they try to finish soon.

Ms Khawula (in isiZulu) said she recalled a question asked earlier about alternate Members not being allowed to vote. It was her understanding that the alternate Members were supposed to participate in the meetings. She knew that she would not receive a response now. She required clarity from the leaders of the Department on the skills and rights of their employees. She asked about voting -- were women voters distinguished, based on their differing parties and provinces? Women were looking to them for guidance and care. She would hold off on asking more questions for now.

Ms Chauke-Adonis asked about the budget allocation, noting that they had reduced the budget in terms of services for women, youths and persons with disabilities. How did this negatively affect the operation and delivery of services to these groups? She requested a breakdown of statistics concerning the demographics of the groups of people the Department had to service. How many of these individuals had been serviced, and what was the shortfall? They often did not receive reports from the Department on where they had failed. Lastly, the budget for equipment was very low -- would it adequately cover the special needs of persons with disabilities? How many people with disabilities are currently employed within the Department? What was the plan to include persons with disabilities in the budget going forward? The current operational budget could not cater for such at the moment. How could the Department make sure that they met their quarterly targets? How did they hold the other departments accountable regarding quarterly targets and spending? She felt that they let down the people in this regard. A large budget was allocated to the NYDA. How was this proportioned in terms of youth with disabilities and women? Or was it seen holistically?

Mr Tshotetsi said that the Department was not empowered to conduct its business. They should consider forming part of the programme for social development. The Committee should prioritise advocating for its empowerment. Was there a mechanism to monitor whether women, youth and persons with disabilities were catered for in the private sector? The private sector was responsive to the mandate of the Department, so could the Department have jurisdiction to conduct oversight in this regard? There was a duplication of responsibilities, especially with the NYDA as an entity, and gave the example of the mainstreaming for the youth. The NYDA annually spoke about bursaries, but said little about the impact they had made in changing the lives of young people. What was the jurisdiction of the Department on the mainstreaming of women, youth and persons with disabilities within the private sector, and what were the figures for the transformation of their policies?

Ms Mrweqana said she had read all the presentations and noted that most of the content looked impressive on paper, but was not showing practically. She had heard the budget presentation, but felt that it was not practical. She requested that when presenting, the Department go into detail when discussing women, youth and persons with disabilities. She requested that the presentations not be vague. Speaking in isiZulu, she said that she had noted all the achievements, but was unsure which group it was for -- women, youth, or persons with disabilities. She required more detail so that they could verify the information when they conducted oversight.

She commented that the work of the Committee was vast, as they were doing the work of about three ministries. If there was a ministry for each of the women, youth, and persons with disabilities, this would be beneficial because each group faced many issues. The Members were overwhelmed right now, as they often belonged to several committees. At the moment, she was thinking about her issues in the Defence Committee. Each Member should be focused on their own committee. Yesterday, they could not meet because everyone had rushed to their committees. They needed to take themselves seriously, or others would not take them seriously.

A Member recalled the Minister mentioned that R5 million had been allocated for GBV issues, which called for an increment from National Treasury. She was concerned that R3.3m was spent on salaries and R1.7m on programmes to fight GBV. How did they arrive at this ratio, as it did not make sense to her? GBV was a serious issue in the country. She referred to slide 18, which indicated that there was an annual target of 20 interventions over the next five years. She wanted to know what the interventions were, and where they were taking place. She requested timelines in this regard so that they could make sure that they were meeting their targets. Looking at GBV statistics, there was a crisis, and they urgently needed to find solutions to such issues.

A Member asked about the first slide dealing with administration. There was emphasis on the ‘unqualified audit opinion.’ Where were they now on the audit opinion?

The Chairperson asked who would respond to the questions.

Ms Khakhau interjected to ask if they were still within the 20 minutes they had left. If the time had lapsed, could they ask the Department to submit their responses in writing?

The Chairperson said they could stop when someone knocked on the door. She did not want to go into another presentation.

Department's responses

Adv Maluleke said that they were presenting the strategy and the APP today. The questions which Ms Mrweqana had asked would be responded to through the quarterly reports, which were four times a year.

There were many interventions which they would submit in writing, especially on the Gender-based Violence and Femicide (GBVF) Act.

For about three or four years, they had received an unqualified audit, and they aspired to receive a clean audit. She would provide the demographic breakdown in writing. They had even gone to Cabinet, as the equity target was 2% for persons with disabilities, and they had requested Cabinet to increase it to 3% so they could meet their target of 7% by 2030. Government was not moving -- they were at 1.4%, so they had requested an increase in this regard.

The reductions in budget allocations negatively impacted their services. They would submit this in writing so that they could see what they were doing. The impact of the Department was low due to the budget reductions.

They submitted many monitoring and evaluation reports, and had previously asked to present these reports to the Committee over two days so that Members could have a better understanding of what the Department was doing.

Ms Khawula interjected (in isiZulu) to ask about monitoring parties, but she was stopped by the Chairperson, who said she would not allow this question to be asked. The Chairperson said Ms Khawula knew why she was being stopped from asking such a question.

Adv Maluleke said that they had developed legislation, which involved the judiciary and Parliament, but the State Law Advisor would not agree to this. The Bill had stayed with them for a long time while a debate ensued about the separation of powers. If Parliament came back to them and said that it could be included in the legislation, they would be working within the law.

An official said that she would respond on the ratio of R3.3m and R1.7m. This was informed by the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA) as well as National Treasury, to cater for the human resource needs within the Department. The R3.3m was aligned with the public service remuneration paid to government officials, which increased annually. As this increased, the R1.7m was reduced because they had to spend within the R5 million made available to the Department.

She commented that the incidence of GBV was very high. When the responsibility to deal with this was allocated to the Department, they had not been provided with a budget in this regard. The R5 million was not enough. They required a budget to assist them with their duties.

An official responded to the question regarding the de-segregation of services for women, youth and persons with disabilities, and said the NYDA could answer this question. The second question was about the services of the NYDA, and the Department’s programmes on youth development. The Minister was responsible for youth development, and in the Department, there was a youth development unit that was responsible for providing technical support to the Minister, specifically to provide overarching legislation and policy to guide youth service providers on the priorities for youth development. This involved many Acts. Above this, they were also responsible for monitoring other departments to see what they were doing in terms of youth development. The NYDA was responsible for intensifying direct service delivery for youth development to ensure they reached young people. This was the difference, in a nutshell.

Deputy Minister Letsike thanked the Members for their questions, and mentioned that the Committee was ready to engage on the content of the programme, which she appreciated. Most of those at the meeting were women, and women were the only ones to defend women’s issues. Even women were not a homogenous group, nor were the youth and persons with disabilities, because of their differing experiences. It was the Department's wish to account to the Committee and share progress, but also to amplify the advocacy work to be done with regard to gender equality.

South Africa was fortunate enough to have data collected which indicated the country's demographics. They would provide such demographics to the Committee in writing. Almost 4m people were living with disabilities, and if one were to compare budgets, they would see that there was a crisis. The budget allocated was not enough for the population, taking into account the various challenges. The APP had already revealed the constraints faced within the Department.

Secondly was the impact of the NYDA, as the Department had to look at the allocation and over 70% of its funds went to the NYDA. The programme impact was an evaluated impact analysis, and the Department tried to respond to this by indicating whether this was a good use of money or not. Even looking at the 700 resources, the plan of the NYDA was still not enough. In summary, the Department had used available resources to form a plan to present to the Committee.

The budget allocated for the GBV programme was unrealistic. They had a national plan that they developed every five years, and the President launched the National Strategic Plan (NSP). The money allocated was not enough to deliver the necessary programmes. The country spent R45m annually to respond to GBV. One could not prevent GBV on a R1.7m budget, and the Minister agreed on this. They were of the view that the APP presented reflected the current situation, and they were working on this. This was still a work in progress, and once the President had presented the SONA, the Department would revise it accordingly.

The Minister promised that they would provide the rest of the Department's responses in writing, with guidance from the Committee as to when to submit. She wished they could have a workshop for two days so that they could all understand their responsibilities. The Legacy Report was very important, as it was important for the Committee to have an understanding of the resources. The sectors could have their own Ministry, when looking at the challenges faced by women, youth and persons with disabilities. The budget was just not enough. They had to lead on social and economic transformation, but the budget was insufficient for all the duties assigned to them. It was not even enough for the social development of young people in South Africa. There was little they could do, and she prayed that the Committee could take their job seriously and be driven by their interest, rather than just duty. The Committee could assist by asking National Treasury for more funding. The budget for the NYDA was not enough for their mandate. She wished they could have a two-day workshop to understand the budget allocations.

The Chairperson called for the report to be adopted. She requested they formally state their full names and party affiliation before adopting the report. The report was adopted, with no objections.
She said that this would be tabled to Parliament for a scheduled debate, on the prerogative of the respective parties, and said that the Whip would submit the names.

Closing comments

The Chairperson thanked the Department and the Ministry for committing to respecting the Committee. She hoped she would not always be in conflict with the Ministry, and joked (in isiXhosa) that she would start by firing Ms Khawula, which was met with laughter. She hoped that the Members of the Committee would take their work seriously by familiarising themselves with the roles of Parliament, as Parliament was all about roles.

She mentioned that there was someone who kept taking pictures, and this was prohibited. She asked him to identify himself.

The gentleman said he was a Member, but not of the Committee.

Ms Khawula interjected, asking, “Member for whom?”

The Chairperson reprimanded Ms Khawula for doing so. She told the gentleman that he should either sit or wait outside as they concluded their meeting. The gentleman chose to sit down.

The Chairperson said she was sensitive to time, as this showed respect. Members should inform the secretariat of which other Committees they were part of, for administrative purposes. She noted that there were still changes to be made with the parties. She agreed they needed two days with the Department to be taken through the budget. She noted issues about gender, including the need to discuss boys as well. She was wary of a general report, preferring a specific report so that they were not confused and overwhelmed.

She agreed that the private sector was performing certain actions without suffering any consequences. Unfortunately, they could not have separate ministries for different entities. They were also responsible for oversight with other committees. She recalled years ago that the President had requested that workplaces should not require young people to have experience. She knew that going forward, the Committee would have to challenge themselves. She noted that there was no money within the Department, and this made their work very challenging. Schools were not providing support to learners. A two-day workshop could really have benefitted them. Every Member should commit to attending such a workshop if it should arise -- she would be upset otherwise, as this exercise would assist them moving forward.

She thanked the Department, the Committee and the staff for their participation. She requested a private meeting with the staff members. She mentioned that the people who had not yet been introduced were the Parliamentary Liaison Officers of the Ministry. She asked them to stand up and introduce themselves. They liaised with the Department and the Committee, and were therefore very important. She advised that they all go through the documents so that they are ready for the debate tomorrow, as they need to be well-prepared.

She thanked them for electing her as Chairperson.

The meeting was adjourned.