South African Human Rights Commission: Interviews

Meeting report

The meeting was closed to the public between 9:00 and 9:30 so the Committee could discuss matters arising about the interviews. The Chairperson apologised for the delay.

The Chairperson opened each interview by asking each candidate to provide a brief background about themselves and the motivation for their application and if applying to be full-time or part-time Commissioner. t the end of the interview, he informed the candidate that the Committee is awaiting security screening results and if there are issues this will be communicated to the candidate. He also asked if the interview was fair.

Candidate 1: Adv Sandra Makoashe
Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked the candidate to explain the misalignment between her statement that she began practising in 2017 and what was indicated on her CV that she began practising in 2018.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate to describe the type of practice she has and which areas she has practised in.

She asked the candidate to describe the matters which the candidate has dealt with in her practice and if she has dealt with any reported cases.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate what is the role of Chapter Nine institutions being included in the South African Constitution.

As a follow-up to the candidate's response, she asked which research she had referred to.

Adv Breytenbach asked for the candidate's view on the use of pit toilets.

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked the candidate for her suggestions on improving the role of Chapter Nine institutions.

She asked the candidate to elaborate on how she would evaluate her interpersonal and communication skills and to provide the Committee with examples of the use of these skills.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked if the criticism is justified that the South African Human Rights Commission does not have teeth.

She asked if Human Rights has a role in improving social cohesion.

Mr S Swart (ACDP) asked how the candidate would accommodate being a full-time or part-time Commissioner since she has her practice.

Given budgetary constraints, he asked how the candidate plans to address the high levels of poverty, unemployment and challenges with access to basic services for poor people, as a part-time Commissioner.

He asked how the candidate would remedy the situation faced by the SAHRC with the lack of cooperation from and the lack of adherence by government departments, as a part-time Commissioner. He asked how the candidate thinks the SAHRC should best interact with other Chapter Nine institutions, and if they should be overlapping.

He asked how the National Assembly could assist the Commission in terms of providing support (i.e. financially) to push forward the work that needs to be done by the Commission. He asked if the candidate agreed that Parliament has an oversight role to play in this regard.

Ms A Ramolobeng (ANC) was particularly interested in what led to the candidate opting to do pro-bono work for cases involving vulnerable women and those affected by gender-based violence.

She asked if the candidate thinks that she is a suitable candidate for the position. She asked the candidate for her views on the decriminalisation of sex work.

Ms Ramolobeng asked the candidate what she thinks are the most significant human rights challenges currently faced by South Africa.

Mr J Engelbrecht (DA) said that Adv Makoashe has referred to her leadership and experience in chairing meetings. He asked the candidate to provide practical examples and elaborate why she would make a suitable Commissioner.

He asked for the candidate's opinion on the judgement in the court case between the SAHRC and Agro Data in Mpumalanga.

Adv B Mkhwebane (EFF) stated that given the high levels of inequality, racial discrimination and poverty among many other factors in South African communities, how would the candidate propose the Commission should prioritise its human rights focus areas. She asked to provide the Committee with practical examples. She followed up by asking how the candidate would balance racial discrimination and unemployment.

Adv Mkhwebane referred to farm worker abuse and racial discrimination and asked the candidate for her experience on such matters and how the SAHRC should approach the matter. She followed up by asking at whom the training would be aimed. She asked if the candidate had ever been exposed to any of these cases.

She referred to the SAHRC report that in the Eastern Cape 120 children died of malnutrition the previous year and asked for the candidate's opinion on how to address the matter.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked if the candidate has been involved in work with the disabled community or any individual with a disability.

She asked how Adv Mokoashe would ensure that disability issues are brought forward and not neglected if appointed as a Commissioner.

She asked what the candidate meant when she referred to issues being dealt with differently in rural communities as opposed to urban communities.

Mr R Dyantyi (ANC) asked for the candidates' understanding of an individual who is "fit and proper" for the SAHRC. He asked for the features of such an individual.

He referred to the matter of the two courts in the Limpopo and Eastern Cape which are at a standstill and not operational due to the lack of electricity and the lack of water. He asked what the role of the SAHRC would be in such a situation.

He said that Section 181 states the governing principles for all Chapter Nine institutions. He asked the candidate to explain the difference between 181(1) and (2) because they both refer to accountability.

Mr W Horn (DA) asked Adv Makoashe to explain her contribution in terms of the rules book and the changes effected since she became a member. He asked to elaborate on the biggest obstacle presented by the rules book.

Mr Horn asked the candidate to name all the human rights bodies in the South African Constitution. Noting that there is a hierarchy in terms of the Chapter Nine bodies, and he asked if the candidate had ever heard of the Commission for Gender Equality.

He asked how the candidate would work at incorporating her work as a gender based violence activist if there is a Commission for Gender Equality, in a way to avoid overlap.

He asked the candidate to elaborate on her thoughts on the SAHRC's biggest achievement over the last five years in its efforts to foster a culture of human rights in South Africa. He asked what the biggest failure of the SAHRC has been.

Candidate 2: Mr Aseza Aurther Gungubele
Mr Engelbrecht asked the candidate to explain why his Curriculum Vitae states that he holds a Diploma and an Honours Degree because according to his knowledge, one would need to acquire a Bachelor's Degree before qualifying for an Honours degree.

He asked Mr Gungubele to indicate his current employment.

He noted the candidate's work experience does not indicate anything related to law, and asked why he would be suitable for the role of a full-time Commissioner.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what business the candidate is currently running.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen expressed that the right to education is being violated and she highlighted the matter of schools being closed in the Western Cape, especially farm schools. She asked how the candidate would assist children in these communities to ensure their right to education is respected and realised.

She asked if the candidate had experience in working with people with disabilities. She followed up asking how he would ensure the rights of people with disabilities are championed and brought to light.

Ms Ramolobeng asked the candidate to briefly outline the set of skills and expertise which would bring to the SAHRC.

She asked if the candidate believes that the Commission is visible and known by the greater public, and to outline the areas the SAHRC needs to improve on to increase visibility.

She asked what the current challenges facing the SAHRC are.

Given the budgetary constraints experienced by the SAHRC, Mr Swart asked how he would implement some of the strategies outlined in his application. He asked how the candidate would address the matter of certain departments not complying with the Commission's findings. He asked what role Parliament should play in getting departments to be compliant.

He asked how the candidate would address corruption as a Commissioner.

Mr Horn asked Mr Gungubele about his qualifications. He asked how his education, which focused on Retail and Public Management, factored in human rights. He asked for practical examples from his previous employment which indicate the candidate has navigated complex human rights issues.

He asked him to highlight a good achievement of the current Commission over the last five years.

Adv Breytenbach said that the candidate indicated his last employment was as a manager in the Education Department. She asked why there was nothing on the candidate's CV that suggests he is unemployed or is currently self-employed. She asked if the candidate had resigned from his last employment. She asked if he regards the job of a Commissioner as an important role and if it requires a level of gravitas.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked the candidate for his suggestions for improving the role of Chapter Nine institutions in the South African Constitution and improving the understanding of Chapter Nine Institutions in South African communities.

She repeated her question.

She asked how the candidate would evaluate his interpersonal and communication skills and also provide the Committee with practical examples of the use of these skills in previous employment.

Mr Dyantyi noted on the record that he knew Mr Gungubele.

He asked the candidate to outline his understanding of an individual who is "fit and proper" for the Commission. He asked for the features of such an individual.

He asked how the candidate would go about resolving the matter of two courts in Limpopo and the Eastern Cape which are not operational due to the lack of electricity and the lack of water. He asked if these are issues of human rights.

He asked what the candidate would do in a scenario where an individual approached him as a Commissioner and told him they had been detained for more than seven days, but they had not appeared in court. He asked what the problem was with this scenario.

Adv Mkhwebane asked if the candidate has ever been exposed to being treated differently in his community during childhood years, based on skin colour, sex or any difference from other children.

She referred to the SAHRC report on the separation of school children and asked for his thoughts on the matter. She asked if it would be acceptable for children to be discriminated against based on the fact that they speak a different language. She said that as a Human Rights Commissioner, he should be dealing with the social ills experienced by the children and not focus on the outcomes of a report.

She asked what the Human Rights Commission should have done differently in handling the cases of children dying from malnutrition in the Eastern Cape.

She asked the candidate what he would do in his role as a Commissioner to address such a case. She asked what should happen in rural areas where there is a lack of technological resources in the intervention proposed by the candidate.

She asked what the SAHRC should be doing to improve scholar transport in rural areas and farm schools.

Candidate 3: Dr Willem Hendrik Boshoff
Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked if the candidate had applied to become a full-time or part-time Commissioner.

She asked if Dr Boshoff has been involved in work with the disabled community or any individual with a disability.

She asked how the candidate, if appointed as a Commissioner, would ensure that disability issues are brought forward and not neglected.

She asked if the candidate would work in both the public service and the SAHRC simultaneously.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked the candidate for his suggestions on improving the role of Chapter Nine institutions in South African communities.

She asked if the criticism that the SAHRC does not have teeth is justified.

Mr Swart asked how the candidate would address the Commission reports' remedial action not being followed through by the executive,.

He referred to the period where the candidate was a part of the Provincial Executive Committee of the majority party and there were allegations against the Premier, Mr Magashule. He asked if the candidate was aware of the allegations and what steps he took at that stage.

He asked what the candidate would do to promote the protection of whistleblowers and ensure better safety for the lives of whistleblowers.

Adv Mkhwebane asked how the candidate would deal with forum shopping by complainants. She asked what improvements could be done about Institutions Supporting Democracy.

Adv Mkhwebane asked where the candidate grew up. She followed up by asking how Dr Boshoff would deal with the abuse of farm workers by farm owners. She asked the candidate to provide examples of work he has done with rural communities.

Adv Mkhwebane asked if appointing the candidate as opposed to a younger candidate would be of great value.

She asked what the SAHRC should have done differently in handling the cases of children dying from malnutrition in the Eastern Cape. She asked the candidate what he would do in his role as a Commissioner to address such a case.

Mr Horn put it on the record that he knew Dr Boshoff.

Mr Horn noted that the candidate claims that he was not aware of the allegations against Mr Magashule yet the Free State is one of the smaller provinces and the allegations attracted national attention. In the Free State, it was no secret that Mr Magashule was always involved in corruption. He asked the candidate to elaborate on his response to thIS matter.

He asked what interventions the SAHRC could embark on to address service delivery concerns.

Adv Breytenbach asked where the candidate was before he joined the ruling party and when he joined the ruling party.

She asked for the perspective of the candidate on the reasons the Commission was established as an institution protecting constitutional democracy. She asked about the role of the SAHRC as a Chapter Nine institution. She asked if the SAHRC has been successful in achieving its mandate.

She asked why the candidate would like to be a Human Rights Commissioner.

She asked the candidate to indicate two factors that would improve the position of whistleblowers in South Africa.

Ms Ramolobeng asked if the candidate was ever officially appointed as the municipal manager.

She asked the candidate to outline some of the human rights challenges in the country.

She asked if the candidate had ever initiated or been a part of a human rights campaign. She requested him to furnish the Committee with examples.

She asked for the outcome of the incident of drugs being sold outside of a schoolyard.

Ms Ramolobeng asked how the candidate would handle complaints that would potentially be politically sensitive or controversial considering his political affiliation history.

Mr Engelbrecht stated that the SAHRC has consistently outlined the failure of government bodies to implement its recommendations. What would the candidate do differently to address this?

Mr Dyantyi asked if the candidate agreed with the statement that the Chapter Nine institutions do not have any hierarchy among them.

He asked how the candidate would ensure that if appointed he will not be influenced by his political background, particularly referring to impartiality, independence and integrity.

He asked the candidate to provide a distinction in Section 181 between the establishment and governance of Chapter Nine institutions in s181(2) and (5).

He asked the candidate to elaborate on his understanding of an individual who is "fit and proper" to be a Commissioner and to indicate if he is the right candidate given his background.

The candidate was given time by the Chairperson to elaborate on issues raised by the Committee members that he did not get a chance to respond to, particularly on the footprint of the SAHRC.

Candidate 4: Mr Kamohelo Rodney Teele
Mr Engelbrecht asked the candidate about the status of his membership in the African Content Movement political party and why he did not disclose this information to the Committee.

He asked what the senior position he holds in the Deaf Youth Development Project entails and if it is not a busy position. Further, how did the candidate plan to hold the position of a full-time Commissioner given the nature of his various other positions which require his time.

He asked what the position of Advisor to the SAHRC entails.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what more can the candidate bring to the Commission's work on disability issues, given his background and the projects he has been involved in.

She asked what other focus areas the candidate would bring forth if he appointed as a Commissioner.

She asked what improvements the candidate would like to see, given his experience in the past year.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked the candidate what assistive devices he would require if he appointed as a Commissioner to assist him in his work.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked how the candidate would contribute to improving public understanding of the role of Chapter Nine Institutions.

She asked how the candidate would evaluate his interpersonal and communication skills and to provide the Committee with practical examples of the use of these skills in previous employment.

She asked if the criticism that the SAHRC does not have teeth is justified.

Mr Swart asked how the candidate seeks to achieve the plans set out, if appointed, given the financial constraints facing the SAHRC.

He asked how the candidate would improve the performance of the Commission.

He asked if the position held by the candidate in the Disability Advisory Council to the SAHRC was voluntary or paid.

He asked if the candidate plans to resign from his current role as a teacher if appointed as a Commissioner. He followed up by asking when the candidate had resigned.

He asked if the candidate had experience and knowledge of working with elderly people. He asked the candidate to elaborate on his knowledge of the Older Persons Act.

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate to indicate some of the important points he took away from the meeting between the SAHRC and the Committee.

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate to outline some of his plans if appointed as a Commissioner. He asked if the plan focused only on disability issues.

Mr Horn asked what has been the biggest failure of the SAHRC over the past five years.

He asked for the candidate’s perspective on the use of the SAHRC in systemic investigations on human rights issues in the country.

He asked what the Committee should make of the fact that it is still waiting for the SAHRC report on the July 2021 unrest as well as a report on water provision in the country. He asked how the candidate would address these accountability and credibility issues if appointed as a Commissioner.

Ms Ramolobeng asked what has been the candidate's role in educating society about the stigma against children with albinism and educating mothers that giving birth to a child with albinism is completely okay.

She asked what legacy the candidate would build outside of advocating for people with disabilities and albinism. She asked how he intends to increase the visibility of the Commission in the country.

Adv Mkhwebane referred to the SAHRC report on the separation of school children and asked for his thoughts on the matter.

She asked how the candidate would address issues related to children with autism if appointed as a Commissioner.

She allowed the candidate to continue elaborating on his plans based on Mr Dyantyi's question.

The Chairperson asked if the candidate had resigned as a member or as an executive member of the African Content Movement.

Candidate 5: Mr Vernon Roderick Seymour
Mr Horn asked if the candidate was applying for the role of full-time or part-time Commissioner.

He asked Mr Seymour to outline the branches of responsibility for the SAHRC in performing its duties.

He asked if the candidate agreed with the statement that the SAHRC is a toothless body. He asked what the Commission should do to build a human rights culture.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate to provide an update on the matter when he was a member of the South African Football Association committee and he was accused of eliciting sexual favours from an intern. She asked if he was ever charged criminally.

She asked the candidate about his inconsistent employment within the legal profession as he indicated in his questionnaire that he has been in and out of the legal profession. She asked for the reasons the candidate had changed law firms on so many occasions.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what improvements the candidate would like to see in the SAHRC should he be appointed as a Commissioner.

She asked if enough people were aware of the work of the SAHRC in South Africa. In what areas would the candidate like to focus on if appointed as a Commissioner?

She asked if the candidate had experience in working with people with disabilities.

Adv Mkhwebane asked for his view on the case of 120 children who died of malnutrition in the Eastern Cape. She asked if the SAHRC could have acted more strategically to avoid the cases from happening. She asked how finding funding would assist when there is a Commissioner who is responsible for the Eastern Cape. She asked what the candidate would do differently if appointed as a Commissioner.

Given the emergence of the Fourth Industrial Revolution (4IR), she asked how the candidate would ensure that more young people are aware of the existence of the SAHRC and its work.

She asked Mr Seymour how he would address the abuse of farm workers by farm owners should he be appointed as a Commissioner.

She asked for the candidate’s thoughts on the failure of the state to implement the recommendations made by the Commission. She asked what is lacking and how should Parliament assist so state organs implement these recommendations.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked what could be done to ensure that state organs are implementing the recommendations made by the Commission, as it has been cited as a core failure of the Commission.

She asked how the candidate would contribute to improving public understanding of the role of Chapter Nine Institutions.

She asked how the candidate would evaluate his interpersonal and communication skills and to provide the Committee with practical examples of the use of these skills in previous employment.

Mr Dyantyi put it on record that he knew Mr Seymour.

He asked the candidate to provide a distinction in Section 181 between the establishment and governing principles of Chapter Nine institutions in s181(2) and (5).

He asked the candidate to elaborate on his understanding of an individual who is "fit and proper" to be a Commissioner and to indicate if he is the right candidate for this role.

He asked for the candidate's views on the limitation of rights in terms of Section 36 concerning how it would affect human rights culture.

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate about the relevance of having a Human Rights body in the country and his view on the current state of affairs of the Commission.

Ms Ramolobeng asked the candidate to describe his leadership style. She asked if he has led other individuals and if he has been successful in doing so.

She asked if the candidate would regard himself as an individual who is fit to serve as a Commissioner.

She asked what innovative measures he would implement to promote public awareness of human rights.

She asked how the candidate would respond to public criticism towards the SAHRC and towards himself as an individual.

Candidate 6: Ms Zukisa Nzo
The candidate was not interviewed as she did not meet the criteria.

Before the Chairperson adjourned the meeting, he noted that the Committee needs to finalise the BRRR Report on 17 November after the NPA Amendment Bill deliberations.