Municipal Demarcation Board; CRL Rights Commission 2022/23 Annual Reports; with Deputy Minister
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs
12 October 2023
Chairperson: Mr F Xasa (ANC)
Meeting Summary
The Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB) in its Annual Report briefing stated that there has been an increase in submissions and representations during its public consultations on boundary redeterminations. The MDB reported that it wants to focus on bringing more stability to municipalities. The MDB presented its challenges and interventions for these challenges, which included the MDB intensifying its public and stakeholder education and awareness programmes.
Committee members said that public feedback did not mirror the positive report given by MDB. There had been criticism about MDB's engagement with communities and the 2016 amalgamation of municipalities during recent Committee public hearings on the Independent Municipal Demarcation Authority Bill. Committee members felt that smaller communities were neglected in the demarcation process and that there is reduced lack of access to municipal services due to the mergers of municipalities.
MDB noted that the constrained fiscus does not allow it to have a regional footprint. MDB does go to the municipalities affected and consults them. However, there are demarcation criteria in the current Act that it has to abide by. One of MDB’s solutions is to broaden their awareness and education campaign to ensure that it is able to take the community along when they make decisions.
The CRL Rights Commission outlined how it remains the least funded entity and how this hampers and impedes its vision of accessibility by local communities. However, it works hard to make its presence felt although currently without regional offices. The CRLC had conducted 50 engagements and educational campaigns with cultural, religious and linguistic communities.
Committee members asked about the CRL Commission involvement in the process for the recognition of Khoisan leaders, how it is dealing with delays by police in investigating unacceptable behaviour at initiation schools and discriminatory behaviour cases, as well as its role in ensuring that municipal by-laws are tolerant of cultural practices.
Meeting report
The Chairperson welcomed Deputy Minister Zolile Burns-Ncamashe and the delegations.
Municipal Demarcation Board 2022/23 Annual Report
Mr Manye Moroka, Chief Executive Officer, Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB), presented highlights of the 2022/23 year; its overall performance and programme performance; its audit outcomes; spending analysis; reasons for under expenditure, key challenges and proposed interventions.
It was a good year for MDB as it maintained its clean audit status of the past five years, achieved 92% of its annual performance plan (APP) targets, analysed 11 576 voting districts to determine split communities, and extended its knowledge hub by integrating two spatial data products.
Amongst targets achieved, was exceeding its public awareness and education goals; implementation of the workplace skills plan; significant growth in the number qualifying vendors and 56.5% procurement from women owned enterprises.
Public consultations have expanded. MDB spend more time on the ground to ensure that the class 2 to 4 redeterminations were in line with its resolutions. Public consultations were conducted during quarter one of 2023/24 due to adjustments in the boundary re-determination process. The Free State and Western Cape lagged behind but this did not have a negative impact on MDB work.
On the municipal boundary determination process, MDB opened for new demarcation proposals from November 2021 until 31 March 2022. MDB received 241 requests/proposals for municipal boundary re-determination. After the closing date, MDB received approximately 51 000 views and representations.
Mr Moroka brought major proposals to the attention of the Committee for noting which included: amalgamations / disestablishments; reversal of previous redeterminations; establishment of new municipalities; establishment of metropolitan municipalities.
Key challenges included:
- Inadequate financial and human resources constrains MDB to optimally fulfil its mandate.
- Lack of regional representation without satellite offices continues to constrain MDB work.
- High dependence on municipalities and departments to facilitate communication with communities. However, MDB has proposed a collaborative model to the South African Local Government Association.
MDB will immediately, after the municipal boundary re-determination process, commence with the delimitation of wards for the 2026 local elections. It will commence with intensive public and stakeholder education and an awareness campaign, followed by the delimitation of wards in consultation with stakeholders and affected communities.
Mr Thabo Manyoni, MDB Board Chairperson, noted that the current board was coming to the end of its term. It will work hard towards maintaining and improving the 92% performance. There has been an increase in interest in the boundary redetermination process. It has received many more views and representations compared to previous years. This could potentially show the dissatisfaction of the communities with municipal service delivery or it could mean that more communities becoming familiar with the MDB processes. MDB has to look into how it will bring stability to municipalities and will continue to look at redeterminations. The current board wants to leave a legacy where its processes are smoother, there are more engagements, and no disruptions – this means having more engagements with affected parties.
Discussion
Ms P Xaba-Ntshaba (ANC) welcomed the presentation which was fruitful. Many people participating in this Committee’s public participation on the new Bill and in the constituencies complained that MDB does not come to the people and find out what challenges people are facing on the delimitation of boundaries. It appears that MDB is doing a lot of work according to the presentation, however; this does not translate on the ground. The public does not feel that MDB has been of good service to them. She asked MDB in which wards and municipality were they on the ground given that the public felt that they were not served properly by MDB.
Ms Xaba-Ntshaba made a later statement about the 2016 merger in Limpopo stating that the people of Musina told this Committee during the public hearings that the people from the other municipality that Musina was merged with do not pay for their municipal services. They are used to being indigenous and are in a situation that they do not want to be in, they are unemployed and from rural areas. They were forcefully demarcated by MDB. Community members in Musina told the Committee that MDB did not go to them and instead used drones to demarcate them. Later, some people had approached community members stating they were from MDB, took down the community's concerns but have never got back to them to date.
On MDB stating that they were 100% on the ground, royal authorities in Vembe felt excluded from the demarcation process while MDB quietly took one area controlled by one chief and allocated it to another chief. Several chiefs cried tears at how government and MDB have been neglecting them. We are a black government and a government of the people, why are we not considering chiefs when decisions are made during public consultations? MDB’s presentation is fruitful on paper but this fruitfulness does not translate on the ground. The new board must put people’s concerns first. She noted a lack of representation of people with disabilities on the board.
Ms E Spies (DA) stated that she was partly covered by Ms Xaba-Ntshaba. The only way to measure if MDB has made a tangible impact is to listen to the public’s feedback. The feedback does not mirror the positive report given by MDB. When the Committee started its first public hearing, she noticed that MDB spreads its information digitally in constituencies where the constituents do not have ready access to the internet and social media. This leads to the public not having knowledge of MDB. How is MDB going to improve this as it is currently bad? There was a meeting for an investigation where a particular municipality received a notification of a meeting with the wrong date. MDB claims that they have performed well, whereas they have regressed. What is MDB going to do to improve stakeholder engagement, awareness and education and how is MDB planning to reach communities that do not have access to internet and digital platforms?
Ms G Opperman (DA) referred to slide 28 where it states that zero representations have been received from the Northern Cape province. She found that to be very alarming as the Committee went on an oversight visit to Northern Cape where the Committee saw a lot of municipal demarcation issues that needed to be addressed.
Why is it that there is not a single representation received from the Northern Cape? Did the board enquire about this lack of representation? It is not possible that there are zero representations from an entire province. There are instances where municipalities are separated by a single street leading to one side being served by the Northern Cape and the other side receiving services from the North West province. This leads to people not receiving proper service delivery due to the MDB demarcation. How does MDB determine municipal demarcation on the ground? Do you first physically walk the areas or do you make use of maps and aerial photos to determine where boundaries will be cut?
These poor demarcations affect people’s access to services such as health care and police services. Which of the in-person public participation processes, excluding the 241 written requests that MDB received, were considered by MDB as there was a lot of concerns in the Northern Cape, North West and Free State. She has been a member of this Committee for over five years and MDB has produced the same presentation that shows a lack of regional representation. This translates to a lack of footprint in the provinces and in turn the wards. How will the lack of DDM change the MDB situation of not having regional representation in the provinces? MDB has stated for five years that this lack is due to financial constraints. How much money does MDB perceive it needs to optimally fulfill its mandate?
Ms H Mkhaliphi (EFF) said that she is covered by the Committee members’ questions. This is not the first time MDB public hearing processes have been raised. She agrees with the concerns raised that MDB does not have its own regional offices and they rely on the Department and the the Municipal Speaker to reach communities. MDB is not going to achieve its purpose if they use municipalities to reach communities, given the instability in municipalities. How is MDB planning to address this concern?
She agreed with Ms Opperman that there is a problem. After MDB has conducted public hearings, and compiles its report, what is the turnaround time for that report? Why does it not return to the communities with feedback? This makes the MDB consultations with community members appear fruitless. The increase in consulting fees from R1.1 million to R13.4 million needs clarity. MDB should explain this reliance on consultants as consultants are milking the MDB funds.
MDB has raised funding constraints. What are the circumstances that lead to the resignation of the CFO and Human Resources Manager in 2022/23? These resignations have big implications for MDB's ability to conduct its work. Two MDB employees have lodged unsuccessful cases at the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation, and Arbitration (CCMA) but still have leave to appeal. What are the details of these cases? Has anyone been held liable for the R330 000 in irregular expenditure in 2022/23? The presentation did not address accountability for resources MDB should be using to do its work instead of depending on municipalities that have their own governance crises to deal with.
Mr J Smalle (DA) raised concern over irregular expenditure. During the Committee’s public participation processes many people were unhappy with the MDB demarcation process. Why did the number of public representations increase? Was this because of a clear objection or appeals from communities? Of the representations, how many were against the MDB proposals.
What are the checks and balances for the research report? How does one evaluate the correctness of the research? If the appeals have been attended to and there were a great number of appeals, how is it possible that such a demarcation would still go forward?
In the Vhembe District Municipality, the MDB redetermined the municipal boundaries of Musina, Thulamela and Makhado Local Municipalities by disestablishing the Mutale Local Municipality.
It was clear in our Committee public hearings that there was strong objection by communities to this. They wanted to return to what it had been due to the unavailability of municipal and provincial government services.
Mr K Ceza (EFF) questioned the repeal of the entire Municipal Demarcation Act which seeks to deal with, amongst other things, political influence. What is it that prompts us to amend the entire Act. The current Demarcation Board does rely on the Municipal Speaker and municipalities to drive the MDB footprint at community level – is this not the political influence that needs to be amended in the Independent Municipal Demarcation Authority Bill?
On Slide 35 MDB speaks about the 2016 amalgamation of Potchefstroom with Ventersdorp to form the JB Marks Local Municipality. The people of Potchefstroom and Ventersdorp raised their frustrations during the public hearings on the Independent Municipal Demarcation Authority Bill. The other reason why the Act is being repealed is due to the frustration that MDB does not have a regional footprint to harness its public consultations. The people of Potchefstroom have clearly stated that there is vast dissatisfaction. When they try to address it with the municipality, they find the municipality’s doors closed. What is the real underlying cause for not ensuring that the public is being taken along when decisions are made so that there is not this aftermath of complaints after complaints.
Nobody in any of the provinces said anything positive about MDB during oversight visits and he does not understand why a rosy picture is being painted of MDB’s work. Emakhazeni municipality has a proposal to merge some of the parts of the municipality to Bohlabela municipality (Bohlabela). This is a big jump from one area to the next. How are the people being merged with Bohlabela going to access municipal services? What informs such a decision? How many of those 56 consultations in 2022/23 were done with the Bohlabela and Emakhazeni communities?
On the R1.9 million paid to consultants, MDB has an internal audit that has gone up from R206 000 in the previous year to R957 000 in the current year. Can MDB reconcile how they have an internal audit team and still need a consulting firm to do the statements? Why do you need them and what is the action taken to capacitate. There is R2000 of irregular expenditure lost to unauthorized use of a petrol card by an employee. If I did that, I would have returned the money to MDB from my salary so that I do not get into trouble. Why did the employee not pay the money back?
Mr Mpumza welcomed MDB’s presentation and indicated that their clean audit is commendable. It must be commended for sustaining its clean audit. The MDB states that they are carrying out activities focused on the public and public education awareness around the demarcation process and its intricacies. Our Independent Municipal Demarcation Authority Bill (IDMA) public hearings throughout the country have shown a number of demarcation concerns that indicate that the Board has to rethink its organisational design by increasing its regional footprint by means of satellite offices around the country.
Communities do not know about the work of the MDB. In particular, the people in Potchefstroom and Ventersdorp are unhappy and there is tension between the two towns. The same is happening in Limpopo with Mutale and Musina. There are provinces where municipalities were disestablished. How many municipalities would be disestablished going forward? He hopes that this process of investigations and public hearings would assist the people who are protesting about being amalgamated into a new municipality far away making them have to travel far to receive municipal services in another town. There were municipalities that were too greedy when joined together.
He hopes that the processes being undertaken now address the merged municipalities that are in ICU and that have now eroded the financial capacity of other municipalities. There are municipalities in the Eastern Cape that are in intense financial distress due to the mergers which were not correctly considered and did not have a sound financial diagnosis.
Municipal Demarcation Board response
Mr Thabo Manyoni commented on the impression that the Municipal Demarcation Board does not do any consultations in the country. That is the perception Committee members got when they consulted with communities. It would be difficult to speak about every single community in this meeting. He would rather send a list of all the areas MDB covered when they started the ward delimitation process and indicate contact persons for particular areas on that list. This will help the Committee verify and solve the concern about the non-visibility of MDB. He noted that MDB works with traditional leaders in areas like Ndabankulu because they also make applications.
MDB is aware that they have been relying on the Office of Speaker in municipalities. This is because those are the offices that do local consultations. Members are indicating that this is ineffective. MDB unfortunately cannot go beyond and use the municipal public participation staff because they are working on their own programme. When Parliament needs to consult on a new Bill, its team is out there already in preparation for public participation. MDB does not have regional infrastructure. This dependence on utilising other institutions in the provinces makes consultation difficult. The Committee will have to look into the solution.
National Treasury has always said that the fiscus does not allow this. This makes it difficult to deal with some of the challenges. Community members were being creative when saying that MDB uses drones. MDB does not use drones. Before MDB begins its process, it goes to the municipalities affected and speaks to the technical teams and GIS people there to look into the boundaries so that the challenges are highlighted there to ensure that people do not have to cross rivers and travel long distances to get municipal services.
MDB consults the technical teams before it consults with the local municipal councils. MDB cannot 100% delete itself from the affected areas because their work impacts the municipality’s areas. MDB will send an electronic report detailing the work it has done so that the Committee can look into that. MDB is fully aware of the Committee’s previous dissatisfaction with its previous work. He put it on record that since the establishment of the Municipal Demarcation Board, its has never initiated any amalgamation or redetermination on its own.
The MDB Act allows MDB to do so but it has not done so to date. It has been acting on request of proposal applications that have been made by community interest groups and so forth because MDB has to consider any application that comes to its attention. The processes of consultation have been there. He used JB Marks municipality as an example. When this process began, the communities were happy to join into a bigger municipality to get access to services. We know that the opposite happened. Hence communities are requesting re-establishments and re-formation of new municipalities because they realise that the amalgamations have not been working.
MDB has also indicated to communities that the amalgamations have not been working for other reasons. MDB has received applications for the disestablishment of previously amalgamated municipalities. Having learnt from history, we will have to come up with better solutions and help municipalities in a better way.
Mr Manyoni responded about there being no representations from the Northern Cape and there being issues with the Police Service. The non-alignment of magisterial districts with the municipal districts is causing problems. You would find that one person is staying close to a police station but would have to report to a different police station that is far away due to magisterial district and municipal district not being aligned. MDB has spoken to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to assist in fast tracking a solution. We have received applications on this and we are working on them. He was of the view that MDB needs to send a report to the Committee on the areas they have covered and the people they have been in contact with in those areas so that the Committee can verify for itself.
Mr Aluwani Ramagadza, MDB Chief Operating Officer, noted Members’ concerns about communities being split and traditional councils laying complaints about their areas being split. There is a clause in the new Bill on ward delimitations which proposes MDB may deviate from the norm up to 30% where an obvious community would be split. MDB has over the years tried to ensure that obvious communities are included in a single ward where possible. However, MDB was hamstrung by the current Act that states it can only deviate from the norm by 15%, even if an area has a huge number of registered voters that cannot fit into one ward. It is illegal for MDB to include that area into one ward if the number of voters exceeds a 15% deviation. That is what has caused areas like that to be split.
It is not a 100% solution because some communities and traditional areas are too big and would take more than a 30% deviation to be included in one ward in a municipality. Such challenges would still exist in those circumstances. However, MDB’s solution has always been that they need to communicate this as part of the education and awareness campaign as recommended by Members, and also to ensure that MDB is able to take the community along when such decisions are taken. MDB intends to intensify that even within its financial means.
On the use of technology, MDB does its work on the ground in most instances. He knows for a fact that in the current Municipal boundary determination process before MDB even went on to publish the section 26 process in a number of proposals our teams went on to do on the ground consultations and do in loco inspections. That is where MDB were trying to verify the proposals that communities and members of the public were making to see if there are feasible physical barriers such as mountains and rivers and all the likes. These things are not enough and would need to be intensified as time goes on.
On the determination of municipal boundaries, there are criteria that have to be considered. As much as people have a strong view on why they want a specific municipal boundary, MDB is enjoined by the law to ensure that decisions are ultimately in compliance with the criteria. That is why MDB takes a decision that people do not like at times, but it has to be in compliance with those particular criteria.
Mr Ramagadza replied that MDB would outline those proposals that are currently being processed as part of the written report it would send to the Committee. This information is contained in the MDB circulars.
On the 2016 amalgamation of Musina and Mutale, there is a proposal about Mutale that is currently being considered by MDB. Formal investigations were done there and the reports will go to the board for determination. All these must be in compliance with the demarcation criteria.
On the establishment of new municipalities, he replied that he does not have an accurate figure but he knows that it might be ± six cases. There are numerous proposals for the establishment of new municipalities in the Free State. All those applications are currently under consideration by MDB, and the MDB chairperson indicated that he has been going up and down conducting formal investigations and public meetings in the provinces.
On the lack of regional presence, a regionalisation strategy was put in place five years ago. Subsequently, a business plan for regionalization was developed and presented to National Treasury as funding was required. The plan is there but it requires funding.
On improvisation to ensure that there is focus in these particular areas, as MDB has reported to the Committee previously, it has aligned itself with different provinces but it is not enough. In the case where funding remains a constraint, MDB is considering partnering with other statutory bodies that may have a local presence on the ground. However, MDB may not be able to do enough given its low staff capacity.
On MDB giving feedback to communities after public consultations, it does engage with people from time to time where MDB consults with people outside of the normal municipal boundary determination process or ward delimitations. Where MDB is presented with concerns that it is not responsible for, it always advises people on how the matter should be properly dealt with.
On resolving the ward issue in ward 52, he replied that contact was established in that engagement and the people who were there agreed that the public needs to be involved from the onset before MDB begins with the next ward delimitation process so that they can go along with MDB to address the ward issue. On water related matters, he replied that there was a representative from the department of cooperative governance and traditional affairs present at the aforementioned engagement who indicated that they would take up the matter and deal with the community’s concerns.
Mr Ramagadza replied that MDB is dealing with the tension in the Potchefstroom area and a formal investigation is going to the board for consideration.
On Emakhazeni, MDB is currently dealing with that. Not all previous demarcations have reached the MDB by means of proposals for re-demarcation. There are a few of those that the Board is currently dealing with. MDB is currently solving demarcation concerns in Mbombela, as well as Bohlabela and Emakhazeni.
CBDC4 |
1 March 2006 |
Annexed by Ehlanzeni a |
amalgamation of the Mbombela and Umjindi Local Municipalities in August 2016. Delmas speaks to long standing provincial boundary issues. MDB has escalated these to the relevant bodies.
On the number of municipalities that are going to be disestablished, this information will be included in the written report that MDB will send to the Committee.
On the amalgamations, MDB has done its research and has learned that amalgamations have not been working, as indicated by the Chairperson. A much more considered approach is needed instead of looking at it as if it is just a demarcation matter. Most municipalities fail due to governance related dysfunction in financial administration and management. If we do not deal with that and not see it as just a technical demarcation matter, we may not get success in getting municipalities to function properly.
Ms Nono Bapela, MDB Executive General Manager, replied that the officials concerned had requested that CCMA consider their matter. CCMA refused late condonation as the matter took place in 2018 and the officials only reported this to the CCMA in 2022. The CCMA dismissed the matter before the merits were discussed.
Ms Bapela explained that the CFO resigned in April and an acting CFO was later appointed until the end of August. An advert was placed for the position and operationalised within six weeks. MDB currently has a new CFO and did not suffer during the period when there was not a permanent CFO.
Ms Nthabeleng, MDB replied to the finance questions. MDB has not reported any irregular expenditure for the period 2022/23.
MDB’s internal audit is outsourced. The difference in the fees could be that MDB was able to fully execute the internal audit plan in the period 2022/23.
On consulting fees, MDB does the majority of the work on the ground and does not rely on consultants to do the day-to-day work.
Ms Barileng Dichabe, MDB Senior Manager: Stakeholder Management & Communication, replied that regionalisation – having a regional footprint – is important because it will assist MDB to overcome its challenge about the ability to physically engage with communities. We have explored measures to integrate the platforms it uses for the traditional media it uses. MDB has explored other platforms to increase its reach. Many consultations have been conducted and it would be ideal for MDB to provide a detailed report on the areas it has covered.
Mr Ceza made a follow-up on MDB having a regional footprint, saying perhaps it is necessary for the Committee to call in National Treasury, look at the budget and look at revenue collection vis a vis who is owing the municipalities. The municipalities are not adequately funded in the first place. MDB has been raising this matter and National Treasury must be called to shed light on why they are responding to MDB in this manner when there is a need for the decentralisation of MDB offices so that the public can have better access to MDB work.
The MDB CFO replied about the use of drones, saying that the Committee has been listening to a lie. It cannot be that the Committee went to eight different provinces to listen to a common lie. All the provinces cannot have this common lie. Clarity is needed on what is meant on that point.
In conclusion, the Chairperson appreciated the MDB clean audit. He found it critical to state why a review of the Demarcation Act of 1998 is suggested. This comes out of different experiences and it is a collective effort to review the Act and demarcation issues. The Committee’s criticisms are not directed to MDB per se, but are due to the current experience of the provincial public hearings that the Committee is undertaking.
CRL Rights Commission 2022/23 Annual Report
Mr Eddie Mafaza, CEO of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRLC), on the institution's impacts and outcomes, providing the results on the annual targets per programme and overall achievement. All its programmes, except the Administration programme, achieved 100% of its targets. Overall performance increased by 6 points from 88% in 2021/22 to 94% in 2022/23.
This year marks the fourth clean audit for the CRLC. It reported zero fruitless, wasteful and irregular expenditure. CRLC has conducted 50 engagements and educational campaigns with cultural, religious and linguistic communities.
The CRL Rights Commission had R3.594 million remaining of its budget. This was generated mainly from vacancies that were filled internally through appointment of staff members to act in higher positions.
Prof Luka Mosoma, CRLC Board Chairperson, noted that this is the Commission’s penultimate report during the Sixth Administration. The CRLC had reach out and exposed its work to many communities and the Annual Report shows this. The CRLC wants to work where communities are as the work of the CRLC is the work of the community. He emphasized the importance of the CRLC being rooted in being of service to communities. The CRLC had been engaging with traditional leaders to assess how they can collectively tackle the multiple deaths occurring at initiation schools.
Discussion
Ms Opperman asked the Commission how many of the 83 cases involving culture, were about illegal initiation schools where many boys have died? How many of these cases have resulted in imprisonment so far. What process does a municipality have to follow to get the Commission’s help on reviewing proposed municipal by-laws?
Ms Opperman asked what initiatives has CRLC dealt with for the recognition of Khoisan leaders and Khoisan matters. What budget has been made available for Khoisan matters? How far is the process of recognition of Khoisan leaders and what problems are Khoisan leaders facing with the recognition process? How much money was spent on Khoisan matters in the past financial year? What programmes were implemented in 2022/23 for Khoisan languages such as Nama, and what are the future plans? Has education and training been provided on the application for recognition.
The Commission on Khoisan Matters only visited two areas in the entire Northern Cape which is vast so there are many people who have no clue about recognition. How do we promote this to rural communities which have little to no information about recognition. What is the process that needs to be followed to get CRLC to engage with Khoisan people in my community?
There is currently a scheme in her ward where people are filling in forms and paying R50 to potentially win millions. This is a scam. How can she get CRLC to engage her community on this.
What is CRLC’s current relationship with the National Khoi and San Council because they have a lot of geographical areas that they represent but not in the area where I come from which has a strong Khoi, San and Nama presence.
Mr Ceza asked CRLC how it deals with intolerant municipal by-laws when it comes to traditional ceremonies in townships and some urban areas? There are a lot traditional healers who have to barricade streets when they are conducting their ceremonies and they receive harassment from law enforcement agencies.
CRLC reports on the reduction of irregular and wasteful and fruitless expenditure. Why is there an application for National Treasury condonement for irregular expenditure of R2000 due to unauthorised use of a petrol card by an employee instead of ensuring that R2000 is deducted from the employee's salary?
How far is the CRLC investigation into the harassment of a teacher in Mdantsane by other teachers due to the teacher having traditional beads that suggest the teacher underwent the traditional process of becoming a traditional healer? An assault case was opened in 2017 as well as another case in 2023 and this harassment has also been affecting the learners. On the penultimate report by CRLC versus the number of outstanding cases, what number of outstanding cases does CRLC have vis a vie their ultimate report? There is a larger need for CRLC to have a regional footprint. CRLC needs to join MDB and the National Treasury to have engagements on funding. He is not convinced that there is no money but is rather of the view that there is an unwillingness to spend money and money is sitting there in the bank not serving who it needs to serve. There are people who can solve many of the issues that the South African society is facing but they do not want to assist, and they feel like their reluctance is protected by the law.
There is a case in Bohlabela that CRLC needs to note. It involves people not being able to access their homes due to farmers not wanting them on their land. CRLC can help to take those people to Land Affairs in Witbank and have these cases recorded. These cases have not been solved and CRLC must intervene. There is a trend of people being forced to move to townships by white farmers and nothing is being done about this. CRLC must explain how they are going to solve this. He commended CRLC for sharing the place names of where it did its work.
Ms Spies said she was covered by Ms Opperman and Mr Ceza. The Committee was informed by the Department of Traditional Affairs that although the Commission on Khoisan Matters has been in existence since September 2021, not a single Khoisan leader has been recommended to the Minister for recognition. Has CRLC given any support to Khoisan leaders or collaborated with stakeholders to change this situation? On the non-existent land use schemes in the ten municipalities that are non-compliant, who has the Commission been collaborating with and what support has been given to change this situation? She requested a breakdown of the R1.9 million spent on consultants. We want to see more visibility of CRLC but she noted a huge increase in the marketing budget from R72 000 in 2021/22 straight up to R657 000 in 2022/23. Can CRLC explain this and the increase in internal auditing fees from R206 000 to R957 000?
Mr Mpumza asked about its conflict resolution programme. The conflict theory suggests that communities are in perpetual conflict due to the scramble for resources. Does the conflict resolution programme perhaps transfer mediation and conflict resolution skills to communities so that CRLC actually develops such skills in communities to mediate conflict on their own under the guidance of CRLC?
CRLC response
Prof Mosoma and Mr Mafadza outlined how the delegation will address the Committee’s questions.
Mr Cornelius Smuts, Chief Financial Officer, CRL Commission, replied that the R1.9 million in the financial statements state that R600 000 was spent on consulting fees in 2022/23 and R880 000 in 2021/22. He is not picking up the R1.9 million that the Committee asked about.
On the marketing budget rising from R72 000 to R657 000, this is mainly due to engagements and expenditure on promotional material for the Initiation Indaba held in April of this financial year.
On internal audit expenses increasing from R206 000 to R957 000, expenditure was a little skewed because a lot of the work was done in the last quarter of 2021/22 and the invoices had run over into 2022/23. Therefore, the R957 000 includes one and a half year’s expenses that came to be paid out in 2022/23.
Mr Mpiyakhe Mkholo, CRLC Senior Manager: Communication, Marketing, IT and Linkages, replied about the harassment matter involving an Eastern Cape teacher. CRLC had engagements with the teacher and phase one of engaging the complainant has been done. CRLC engaged with the school and school inspector on the status of the matter and eventually spoke to the head of the department to get information on the matter. CRLC is anticipating phase two where it will engage with the education department and hopefully conclude this case by the end of October.
Ms Makgoba added that CRLC had a meeting with the complainant on 6 October. Many of the issues stem from a fraud case opened against her by her coworkers in 2014 and not only because of her being a traditional healer. The complainant opened a case but did not attend court as she was advised that the investigating officer was bribed and that the case would not go anywhere. The complainant was advised to attend court in future and not to listen to bribery rumours. The complainant had been at the school since 2021 and has not faced any problems. However, a fight erupted and she was told that it is because she wears traditional beads and paints her face as a traditional healer would and the principal said that the complainant’s beads are choking him. CRLC provided the teacher with a complaint form and said it will investigate this complaint. CRLC hopes to produce a report on the progress of this investigation by 31 October.
CRLC does work with municipalities on by-laws. Some municipalities send draft by-laws to CRLC to check if they are accommodative of cultural and religious communities before they are passed.
On the transfer of conflict resolution skills to communities so they can do it on their own, CRLC works together with communities to resolve conflicts. The Commission will facilitate the mediation itself by bringing the parties to the conflict together and help and guide them to find a resolution.
On by-laws about traditional healers safely practicing their traditional ceremonies, she replied that the by-laws allow people to have their traditional ceremonies. However, there are often Environmental Health by-laws against slaughtering in some areas. There is a process on how to go about hosting a traditional ceremony. The process would require one to indicate when the ceremony will take place; how you will transport your animal for slaughtering; and how the animal will be kept. The Commission ensures that people will be able to compliantly practice their traditional and religious practices.
CRLC hwas not itself received complaints about illegal initiation schools. However, the Commission did have an engagement with people in Phalaborwa on initiation related complaints. These are matters that are dealt with by the Provincial Initiation Coordinating Committee in terms of the Customary Initiation Act.
Mr Mafadza replied that unacceptable behaviour at initiation schools has been reported to the police. Gauteng province gave CRLC a report just last week on initiations in the province. The province voiced its frustrations and CRLC heard them out. The province felt that there was no progress on the cases they reported to the South African Police Service (SAPS) on initiation schools. CRLC requested that the province give them details on all the cases reported to SAPS and the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA), CRLC will have a meeting with SAPS and the NPA to enquire why people are not being prosecuted. CRLC told the provinces that they will engage with the relevant bodies to ensure that there are prosecutions on complaints sent to them about initiation practices. CRLC is on track with this.
On how much CRLC has spent on the Khoisan project that started in the 2021/22 to end of 2022/23, the budget was estimated to be ±R3 million but actual expenditure on the project was less. The CFO will provide further clarity. It is in the mandate of the Commission to engage with all communities, this includes the Khoisan communities. The Khoisan communities are always part of CRLC engagements in one way or another. It is only that this project was flagged for the Nama language because CRLC wanted to pay attention to it in the 2021/22 financial year. CRLC continues to engage with the Khoisan communities even in 2023/24.
On how to get CLRC to be part of engagements in one’s community, CRLC will receive a letter from the members concerned and will evaluate the letter to see if what has been requested is within the CRLC mandate, and see if they can mainstream that the engagement through their programmes and work they do on a daily basis. CRLC does go to all provinces and intervene and assist. It is only that the letter that will assist it to determine an engagement – other than that, CRLC goes to all areas whether they are invited or not.
On the CRLC relationship with the Commission on Khoisan Matters, the CRLC does not deal with traditional leadership which is likely the competency of the National House of Traditional Leadership. In terms of cooperative governance that the two entities need to collaborate on, CRLC has once engaged with the Khoisan Commission on record, but the engagement was so it can have a better understanding of the CRLC inner workings. The Khoisan Commission will always be part of CRLC’s interest but CRLC issues may be different because it is more on the protection of cultural, religious and language rights. We do collaborate where it is necessary.
Prof Mosoma spoke to the CRLC outstanding reports. CRLC has noted that the sacred spaces report will either be released at the end of this or next month to ensure one understands the spiritual content behind the sacred sites CRLC has investigated and documented. A meeting will be held with the South African Human Rights Commission about the Phoenix situation where we are dealing with the high-level findings and recommend what can bring the communities together. Our responsibility is about social cohesion and the unity of communities.
On Botshabela, CRLC is preparing a document where farmers must undertake to ensure that communities have access to their homes or graves on the farms so that communities are not forced to go to townships because there is no space on these farms. CRLC is concerned about the relationship between culture and land. Culture is a consequence of what one has been bequeathed from time immemorial. This cannot be bequeathed where one does not have a place that defines who one is. This is an area of importance that CRLC is investigating. CRLC believes that its inputs will create an understanding that a community or a people cannot be defined in the absence of a place of abode which is land. CRLC has done a lot to try to solve this problem but ultimately it boils down to the importance of land. We feel that is important to look into the relationship between culture and economy and culture and education.
Further questions
Mr Ceza emphasized the importance of the land issue. We have seen that in some instances, places of worship are in places within reserves that are often owned by white people. The government tries to collude and evict those people based on the law. We would like the CRLC Commission to become involved and protect people’s rights to practice their religion. What could the role be of CRLR in ensuring that the law-making process which excludes people with disabilities such as the blind does not continue to exclude blind people?
Ms Spies followed up on her previous question about the R1.9 million on page 74 of the Annual Report which was spent on consulting fees, capacity and capability review project – she requested clarity on this.
Mr Smuts replied that the CRLC embarked on a review of its capacity and capability to deliver on its mandate. That contract started around the time of Covid-19 and was concluded. The full cost of that contract was R1.9 million. The contract included a review of policies, job profiles and job descriptions. It was quite an extensive project. The money spent was about restructuring.
Prof Mosoma replied that it was an effort for the CRLC to give effect to the need for decentralization so that we can have access to communities. The CRLC wanted to do this on a piecemeal basis because it does not have the resources to do it all at once. Where feasible the Commission can use contract workers to assist CRLC as it continues to request for funding. However, the CRLC does not sit back and say it does not have funding. They go to communities and try to create some sort of presence in communities.
On the rights of religious communities, anything that stands in people’s way to safely practice their religious or traditional practices is part of the CLRC responsibility.
On ensuring blind people are not further excluded, CRLC wants to ensure they have access to reading material. The provision of braille ties in with blind people’s rights to culture and education. The denial of blind people’s access to reading material is denial of their access to culture. This is an important consideration it will take on to ensure braille is available to blind people.
The Committee Chairperson thanked CRLC and MDB for their reports and their positive work.
Meeting adjourned.
Audio
No related
Present
-
Xasa, Mr FD Chairperson
ANC -
Burns-Ncamashe, Prince Z
ANC -
Ceza, Mr K
EFF -
Direko, Ms DR
ANC -
Hadebe, Mr BM
ANC -
Mpumza, Mr GG
ANC -
Msimango, Mr X N
ANC -
Opperman, Ms G
DA -
Smalle, Mr JF
DA -
Spies, Ms ERJ
DA -
Xaba-Ntshaba, Ms PP
ANC
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