NPA Quarterly Performances; Information Regulator Vacancy: Report on Committee Recommendation

Meeting report

The Chairperson welcomed the Committee and the delegation from the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA).
 
He announced that the entity would brief the Committee on its Annual Report for 2019/2020 and the first quarter 2020/2021 performance as part of the budgetary review and recommendations report (BRRR) process.
 
Briefing by National Prosecuting Authority (NPA)
Adv Shamila Batohi, NDPP, NPA, began by introducing her team: Deputy National Directors, Adv Rodney De Kock, (National Prosecutions Service), Adv Ouma Rabaji-Rasethaba (AFU) and Adv Karen Van Rensburg (Acting Head: Administration and OWP), among others.
 
Adv Batohi informed the Committee that the NPA has wisely invested the additional allocation in the Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure (AENE). This enabled the biggest recruitment drive in the NPA’s history, the largest intake of aspirants and laptops for everyone. The proposed MTEF budget cuts will undo these gains and undermine the President’s commitment to a rebuild the NPA. Fighting corruption is a priority for the NPA and needs a huge investment and commitment from government.
 
NDPP Overview
A key element to building a strong institution against the challenges of leadership and low morale was appointing top management and ensuring that the individuals are committed and of high integrity. Although there are still leadership concerns, these are being dealt with. In response to a staff survey undertaken in February 2019, relating to restoring the NPAs credibility and enhancing its organisational capacity. In addition to the normal, on-going training happening in the NPA, its Human Resources is looking at a fresh approach to improve on skills development and enhancing employee well-being. A complaints and ethics mechanism is also being set up to address the issue of the integrity of the NPA. This was a huge issue which showed up in a staff survey. It also indicated a need for a zero-tolerance approach to corruption within the NPA as there was a sense that it was not being dealt with sufficient vigour. The setting up of the ethics and complaints mechanism is provided for in the NPA Act but was never set up and there has been a lot of work in the past year, with engagements with the Minister in setting it up. The issue of NPA autonomy has also been a focus of the work over the past year and a consultant has been hired to look into the de-linking of the NPA from the Department of Justice. A follow up survey was conducted this year.
 
Overall Performance of the NPA
The NDPP candidly said that the performance when measured against the predetermined targets set is not at the level that she as leader of the NPA and the common joint leadership of the NPA would have liked it to have been. The performance of the AFU has been low, with the lack of permanent leadership having posed a challenge. The new appointment of Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba will ensure there is progress in asset forfeiture. There are exciting things happening now in the unit, which would be addressed. The NDPP had every confidence that the engagements undertaken this year will bear fruit soon in terms of performance in the coming year. The impact of COVID-19 negatively and seriously impacted the first quarter.
 
Innovation and Policy Support Office (IPSO)
This incubation space is a big part of the institutional aspiration intended to help rebuild the institution and change the way it does business. IPSO is still being capacitated and is meant to be an incubation space for innovative ideas to support the business processes and the work of the NPA.
 
Stakeholders
Work with stakeholders has been a crucial part to this past year, which the NDPP termed a ‘building year.’  Parliament as well as civil society, through a civil society round-table, has been engaged with for the first time this year in order to engage more constructively with civil society.
 
Corruption
Despite some recent successes over the past few weeks which indicate that the wheels of justice are turning, the NPA is still at the tip of the iceberg. There are still huge challenges in this regard and stakeholder collaboration has been a huge part of addressing the issue. The only way that the NPA can effectively tackle this is through small bites. During the Anti Corruption Strategy Workshop, Directors of Public Prosecutions (DPPs) were requested to identify priority cases that could be fast tracked. 33 cases were identified by DPPs. To date 26 of those cases have been enrolled. The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation’s (DPCI) list of priority cases, together when added to DPPs’ list comes to a total of 87 cases which have been identified as priority cases. In the past, some of these cases would never have seen a court room and although their number seems few, this indicates that the days of impunity are limited.
 
Investigating Directorate (ID)
After a year of the directorate being in place, the NDPP set up a review team. This is a 6-month review by an impartial team ending in December including Adv Vusi Pikoli, the ex-NDPP and Professor Chris Stone have started the process and issued an interim report that has been useful in explaining challenges such as why the NPA has trouble moving cases forward faster. The first issue which has been identified suggests that the statutory foundation for the ID is weak and this prevents swift resourcing. The ID is premised on the fact that there will be a collaborative effort by justice partners including secondments from various partners in order to capacitate it; however there is no mechanism to facilitate this engagement such as an inter-ministerial committee, which is recommended. Other findings include the fact that the public sector has lost specialist skills and know-how to fight corruption and that this has hampered the IDs ability to securing alternatives within the legal framework whilst also complying with procurement requirements and Treasury regulations. This has not been easy to address. They also find that there needs to be a strong demonstration of political will in order for such an entity to be successful. These building blocks have been put in place over the past year and are gaining momentum. If this is not lost, it could form the basis for the ID. Finally, another key suggestion is that an expanded proclamation allowing the ID to address institutional impediments will be of assistance. Adv Cronje was available to answer any questions regarding the ID; however the NPA had identified three priority sectors within it, namely: security sector, high-level public and private corruption and state-owned enterprises. The focus has been on the security sector thus far and the main reason that the ID has not been able to move faster in other sectors is mainly due to resourcing. Momentum is being gained, however, with inter-departmental project teams having been set up with SARS, SAPS, the AFU, the NPS and the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). The ID has engaged in work dealing with racketeering. Extensive negotiations have been taking place to deal with mutual legal assistance and they continue to engage with DIRCO and other counterparts to address these issues. Finally, forensic evidence capability is a huge part of government trying to thwart the issue of corruption and the capability really needs to be created in government. Recent successes in court means that the NPA is now able to unlock critical resources, notably with the Zondo Commission winding down and the co-operation which has been able to be secured in order to assist the ID. As such, case reviews and lessons learnt are being shared.
 
MTEF Allocations
The NDPP stressed that given the demand on the NPA and the crisis being faced in south Africa due to the impact on the economy, it has to be careful that the NPA does not lose any of the money that it received both in the AENE as well as the MTEF process otherwise it will not be able to do the work required. The NPA is concerned and as such it has been engaging with Treasury. The NDPP then handed over to her colleague.
 
Impact of Baseline reductions
Mr Tebogo Sethabela, Acting Head of Financial Management, NPA, said that National Treasury has announced that it is conducting spending reviews to consolidate all of the budgets. Budget cuts will impact the recruitment and aspirant programme. While NPA can absorb budget baseline reduction in respect of current financial year and 2021/22, proposed cuts in respect of outer MTEF years will cripple NPA’s ability to deliver on its mandate. NT was formally urged to not consider any additional budget baseline reductions & to reconsider current position relating to outer years.
 
NDPP comments on baseline reductions
The NDPP added that since the NPA received R1.3 billion for the next MTEF period, if the budget cuts are conducted, there will be a reduction of R1.1 billion.  Without this, the NPA will have effectively received no increase at all. Over 580 less officials would have to be employed in the outer years. She implored the Committee for any assistance in this regard as the NPA needs more officials than simply the posts it is trying to fill in order to do the work it needs to do.
 
Overall Performance
The NPA reported that in 2019/20 it achieved 17 targets (61%), and did not achieve 11 targets (39%). In Quarter 1 of 2020/21, it achieved 6 targets (50%), and did not achieve 6 targets (50%).
 
Sub-Programme: National Prosecuting Service
Adv Rodney De Kock recognised the hard work of the prosecutors in this financial year. This was the last financial year where vacancies had not been filled; hence the prosecutors were overloaded and were carrying double workloads. This impacted their ability to finalise indictments. Under these conditions, prosecutors still delivered on their mandates and deserved applause.

The presentation highlighted the number of convictions including those of government officials and the number of cases processed per High Courts, Regional Courts and District Courts.  It also provided an overview of the backlogs which have increased across all courts, largely due to COVID-19.

Proposed solutions
The National Integrated Criminal Case Backlog Committee has been established with representatives of all key stakeholders to address the impact of COVID-19 on the backlog of cases. The management of backlogs are dealt with collectively at the local case flow forums as continuous engagements between all role-players will ensure that cases are effectively dealt with.

The establishment of four more dedicated specialised commercial crime courts earmarked for this financial year will effectively deal with priority corruption cases.

The NPA reported that the conviction rate in trio crimes is 82,2%. This was lower than the annual target of 85%. Reason for this deviation included incomplete investigations and collection of evidence at the scene of the crime. Various measures were implemented to address the non-achievement of the target such as improved stakeholder engagements with the management of the SAPS at provincial levels and ensuring accurate identification and prioritisation of trio crime cases.

Sub-programme 2: Asset Forfeiture
Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba reported that there were 417 completed forfeiture cases against a target of 510. The reason for the deviation is the undue delays in the finalisation of investigations and litigation of criminal matters. As part of the corrective action, the AFU is rolling out the S18 project, in collaboration with the DPPs in relevant regions.

The value of freezing orders obtained relating to corruption where the amount involved is more than R5 million was well below the R4.7bn annual target (R1.6bn achieved).

Nine indicators were not achieved. With the new budget received, it will be able to achieve its new indicators. To turn the challenges around, it is undertaking firstly, a high-performance strategy to re-assess the performance indicators so as to ensure that it becomes well-known that crime will not pay. Part of this strategy involves identifying high-impact and high value cases. The asbestos case which was concluded on 30 November 2019 is one of those cases. The AFU is confident that because of its collaboration with its partners, it will be able to increase the finalisation of investigations and prosecutions and therefore the number of forfeitures to the state. Secondly, it aims to enhance the performance of the AFU through involvement in a fusion centre collaboration with other asset forfeiture entities such as SIU and SARS. Finally, since the legislation governing the NPA is currently very complex, the NPA would like it to be amended, resulting in an overhaul which would result in cases being finalised more quickly and reducing the high curator costs.

Expenditure
The NPA reported that it spent 96,97% of its allocation. A breakdown of expenditure per programme was provided.

NDPP conclusion
Adv Batohi emphasised that the year has been a challenging one for the NPA, however she is proud to be leading an organization with dedicated staff in the main. She was confident that they will be able to turn around some of the issues. Some matters, such as the backlogs have been exacerbated by COVID-19. There were bigger concerns; such as the fact that the District Courts are sitting for less than three hours in the day. Serious conversations need to be had about this as there are questions as to whether the resources in the system are being maximized. The country as a whole is not capacitated to prosecute cybercrime and organised crime. There are engagements currently taking place at higher levels and in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security (JCPS) cluster to try and make sure that there is progress. There is also a team which the NDPP is co-chairing with Adv Khanyile from the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) looking into the efficiency of the JCPS. There are good conviction rates on GBV; however, when compared with the actual number of violations, the impact of the figures comes down considerably. The NPA is working with its partners to innovate on how to deal with these concerns better. The NPA would like to contribute to people’s feelings of safety differently to the methods of the past.

Discussion
Adv G Breytenbach (DA) said she had many questions. Backlogs will only be reduced if the court hours are improved. There needs to be more prosecutors prosecuting more cases and finalising them. Court hours of three hours is not going to cut it. 20 years ago, this worked, and there were no backlogs the issue is discipline. It is clear that the NPA would have an issue with paying salaries; however, it had not yet resolved the Occupation Specific Dispensation (OSD) issue. It is untenable. She used an example from the previous week where prosecutors travelled hundreds of kilometres knowing that when they arrive, the Magistrate would have retired. Farm attacks are now occurring on a daily basis with the arrest rates being low and conviction rates even lower. She said that the NPA is going to run into trouble with paying the prosecutors. The NPA has had the de Kock report for over a year which has damning findings about top prosecutors who are influencing young prosecutors and earning a fortune. She asked when the NDPP will begin cleaning her own house and when the labs will be functioning better. The report on the AFU was appalling and although she acknowledged Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba has only been there for a short time, she asked what the reason is for the bottoming out of the results as Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba had been working there prior to her appointment.
 
Mr X Nqola (ANC) said that since the NPA wants to restore its credibility, the on-going internal issue of prosecutors consistently complaining about abuses within the organisation needs to be addressed. He asked for a breakdown of the NPAs workforce as there are doubts as to the promotion of some as allegations have been made that some people have been promoted based on their race, and gender. He asked for data to be provided on the staff complement of the NPA based on gender, race and disability so that the Committee can make its own assessment. He also asked for a report on the big corruption cases in the country. Conviction rates are part of the tools used to measure the performance of an organisation. He asked what the NDPP thinks of the Chief Justice’s criticism that conviction rates are used as a performance yardstick for prosecutors. He did not wish to agree or disagree but asked for the NPAs take on this statement as this was said publicly in the annual report by the Chief Justice and is presumably the view of the judiciary. On the issue of targets he said these are not set to be failed but to be achieved. Since the NPA achieved 61% of its target, he asked what challenges prevented it from achieving its full target. Matters which have led to targets not being met must be attended to so that targets are not failed in future. On the GBV pandemic, as termed by the President, he recalled the President’s remarks that bail should not be granted to perpetrators of GBV. There is a consistent complaint in constituencies that women feel unsafe because people who are accused get bail and are released within a matter of days. He asked how this situation can be improved. COVID-19 has increased backlogs which already existed. He asked what the NPAs submission is to address this. Lastly, regarding the consultant hired looking into NPA autonomy; he asked whether the NPA had that capacity internally, so as to save costs.
 
Ms J Mofokeng (ANC) said she was partly covered on asset forfeiture; however, she pointed out that the AFU still has incomplete cases from nine years ago. Whatever it intends to forfeit loses value as cases remain incomplete.  Although the AFUs work with the SIU is welcome, she noted that the spokesperson of the AFU did a good job in being sure that the public knows what is happening as there was a lack of communication from the NPA. Secondly, she asked for an update on the case of the former KwaZulu-Natal Hawks head Mr Johan Booysen, the Port Shepstone case and the hit-and-run case from the Eastern Cape involving a senior state prosecutor’s son, which was withdrawn and documents went missing. This is of concern for several reasons, firstly, it is a prosecutor and one of the NPAs own and yet the case went missing and nothing is happening, and secondly, the credibility of the NPA is at stake here.

On GBV and femicide cases, she welcomed the 75.2% conviction rate of 75.2% and asked if there were still backlogs on these cases.
 
On the Khuseleka One Stop Centres, she asked how many exists in the country per province.

On TTCs, she asked what criteria it is using to decide where to place them as there are provinces which do not have any and GBV is hitting everywhere. It is worrying to see women complaining on television about GBV issues, particularly as the President made a promise to fix this and the Committee and NPA should be seen to be doing work to address it.

On the Steinhoff investigations, she had heard about the multi-disciplinary team including INTERPOL assisting the DPCI asked for an update as there is a tendency that discussions die down in some cases but other cases come to the fore. She asked that this not be the case and that all of these cases are counted as corruption.
 
Adv S Swart (ACDP) said he is deeply disappointed with the work of the AFU unit targets on page 38.  He appreciated the 45% vacancy in the unit, and asked what steps have been taken to address this. Although some of the work being done, such as the asbestos case in the Free State is appreciated, the Committee would like to see more work to be done. As far as the budget is concerned, he pleaded with the Committee members arguing that it cannot allow the NPAs funds to be depleted and its budget to be cut. The Committee needs to make full use of its parliamentary powers in terms of the Monetary Bills and Related Matters Act should there not be co-operation from National Treasury. If this is the case, the Committee will need to approach the Appropriations Committee in terms of the fiscal framework to ensure that there is not a reduction. He offered his full support to the NPA regarding the budget. If there is a budget cut, particularly over the medium term, the Committee cannot expect the NPA and AFU to perform fully.
 
He asked for clarity on the consultant hired on the de-linking of the NPA from the DoJ&CD and the possibility of a legislative amendment in that regard. He presumed that some of his questions will need to be responded to in writing, although he would appreciate as much of a response as possible, now, particularly regarding the 46% vacancy rate of the Specialised Commercial Crimes Unit (SCCU). He asked what is being done to address this.
 
He then asked Adv Cronje to brief the Committee on the ID. He welcomed the amendments to the regulations of the Zondo Commission, which allows the evidence to be considered by the NPA and with investigators who will come across to assist the NPA as the Zondo Commission is winding down. He asked for further input in that regard as well as on progress made regarding the extradition of the Gupta family and the mutual legal assistance sought from the United Arab Emirates (UAE).
 
GBV needs massive attention as well as other crimes like murders, rapes, robberies and farm murders in particular.
 
He asked the NDPP to comment as much as she can on the alarming trend of assassination of high-ranking police officials such as Colonel Stemmet of the Hawks on 11 November 2019 and more recently, on 18 September, Colonel Charl Kinnear. This is deeply disturbing and he asked for a briefing in the progress of the case of both Colonels.
 
He agreed with the NDPPs statement that most of the specialist skill and know-how to fight corruption has been lost in the public sector, making the ID administratively hampered. He asked for a briefing on the co-operation between SARS, SAPS, the FIC, the NPA and other units. The Committee knows that money can be recovered quickly through the tax structures and the SIU has a Special Tribunal which can be approached. There should be some quick wins available. Forensic capacity is an important and capacity to be built and asked what is being done to ensure its enhancement, particularly in the Hawks as the NPA is dependent on it. In conclusion, he emphasised that the Committee needs to do everything it can to ensure that the billions of Rands can be recovered if the entity is properly resourced.
 
Mr W Horn (DA) asked the ID about the regulations which were changed regarding the State Capture Commission. He observed that the arrests and freezing of assets seen over the last week or so are directly related to the change in those regulations. This raises the question of what the NPA, along with the ID and the SAPS, are doing regarding the magnitude of information placed in front of the Commission before the regulations were changed. He did not wish to belittle what had happened over the past few days as it is indeed good news, however the Committee knows that very specific information about huge scale corruption at institutions like PRASA, ESKOM and SAA were dealt with by the Commission prior to the regulations. It would therefore appreciate being appraised of what processes have been followed given the fact that the regulations are not retrospective such that the NPA and the ID are enabled to deal speedily with those matters.
 
Regarding the vacancy rate at the SCCU, he recalled what the NDPP has previously spoken about the missing layer in the development of prosecutors. The layer where prosecutors are recruited for the SCCU is basically missing within the prosecution services. At the time this was raised, it was mentioned that the recruitment drive would focus heavily on that issue. Since the past recruitment drive was the largest in the NPAs history, he asked why there was still a 33% vacancy rate in the SCCU and a 46% vacancy rate in the AFU according to the year’s figures. He asked whether the situation has improved, whether the issue of addressing the missing layer and recruitment from outside the NPA has borne any fruit.
 
He referred to the possible budget cuts and the 585 less officials in the NPA should this become a reality. On the one hand he wants to align himself with the sentiments expressed by Adv Swart and acknowledge the necessity to assist in the rebuilding of the NPA by agreeing that the Committee take a stance on the fact that budget cuts should not take place. On the other hand, he considered the view by economists that the real impact of COVID-19 on the country will not be felt immediately but will be a snow-ball effect in the years to come and asked what the NPA intends to do should there be cuts in the future. He used the example of the high number of people acting in senior management positions to highlight that a number of issues do not seem to be fully in the focus of the NDPP. He recalled the NDPP undertaking to address this at its last engagement with the Committee. In a light-hearted but serious way, he felt the Committee should inform the NDPP that when she returns again it does not want to see actors. The reality is that there have been one or two appointments, but not much progress has been made in addressing senior management vacancies.
 
He asked whether the NPA has had a look at the GBV bills. He hoped and assumed that it was involved in the drafting of the three draft bills which are currently in front of the Committee.
 
Finally, he asked whether in terms of its planning and training the NPA has positioned itself to be able to implement these bills if they become acts in the very near future. He noted that the Committee often hears that as much as Bills take long to pass through Parliament, implementation by Departments can take months, if not years.
 
Dr W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) requested that if amendments are made to presentations, the amended presentations should be sent as it is sometimes hard to follow. She asked how many people have been appointed from the high recruitment drive.
 
She had visited the Atlantis TCC. She was impressed by it but is concerned about the vast distances that need to be travelled to reach the TCCs. She expressed concern about the awareness raising needed for the TCCs. As a sector, she asked whether police know they need to refer GBV cases to the TCCs. She felt discussions and awareness raising needs to take place in the sector for both the partners and for people who need to know of the services of the TCCs. She asked whether the TCCs are adequately resourced. As there is funding allocated to them, she asked for a breakdown of how that funding is allocated to them in writing if the NPA is unable to cover it now.
 
She raised a concern drawn from a case in her constituency. The case involved two children. The case was thrown out because of lack of evidence. She asked how the NPA ensured that cases involving sexual violence against children went through and were not thrown out because of lack of evidence. Specialised information is needed. She asked how the NPA will ensure this happens and that information does not go missing.
 
Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) said that the matter of changes to presentations has been raised before and it is insensitive not to take heed of it, particularly because of the difficulty for Dr Newhoudt-Druchen. She condemned the action of the group of men who barged into the magistrates’ court in the Free State and damaged property. She added that a blind eye could not be turned to it.
 
Adv Swart said that he could not hear Ms Maseko-Jele as her signal was poor.
 
The Chairperson said they could not hear her at all and he was uncertain as to whether the NDPP heard the first part of her comment. He asked that a member of the ANC call Ms Maseko-Jele and give her time to attend to her device.
 
Mr R Dyantyi (ANC) said that when the NDPP presented the previous Annual Report on 15 October 2019, the Committee knew that the NDPP was presenting an inherited annual report. The 2019/20 annual report that the NDPP had just presented is the first footprint of Shamila Batohi. He is happy about this. In the foreword of a very comprehensive 176-page report, the NDPP raised 4 issues saying that the focus within this period was to understand the animal of the NPA, to explore the issues, to plan and to implement. Today’s meeting is about what she has put together. He reminded her that in October 2019, her summary of what had been achieved was 67% of the NPAs target has been achieved and 33% not achieved. Today, what had been achieved was 61% and what was not achieved was 39%. Therefore, this suggests an underachievement. However, he is happier with the 61 % because coupled with the fact that the NDPP is not happy with it, he found demonstrable evidence in this report that something is being done. In his view, what was pending was good news and the report may not reflect what has since been done.

He also addressed the elephant in the room as the question of how the NPA seems to have fixed the top, which is the NDPPs team on top, but how did it intend to fix the middle and the bottom. Another elephant in the room is that it seems that a lot of the power of the NPA is still in the provinces and it is stuck in how to fix this problem. He referred to a report emailed to the Chairperson of the Committee the day before of a GBV case in the Eastern Cape where the Eastern Cape DPP has not been moving on the issue for months, with no indication to the family. This is only one case. There was also the report on racism, nepotism and favouritism in the NPA in East London. There are a number of such complaints. In fact, journalist Karima Brown was complaining about a murder investigation which appears to have been blocked at the level of the NPA. He asked for all of these allegations to be addressed as well as for an update on the progress on the Vrede Dairy issues.

On the 87 cases, of which 26 cases have been enrolled, he asked for a background on the 61 cases that have not been enrolled. He said that the only way the Committee can support the NPA is if it sees results as the Committee does not have patience for the NPA to be built up for two years before it can operate optimally. Rather, it needs to produce results as it builds. He requested a report stating why a budget cut would be detrimental and which areas would be affected as the Committee cannot support the signing of a blank cheque. The matter of the declining court hours in the district magistrates’ courts is not an issue for the NPA to fix. Rather, the Magistrates Commission must attend to the issue of the utilisation of the court and the maximum time spent in court. He was aware that the Magistrates Commission is having a two-day planning session to address some of the problems at the end of October and it would be good for the NPA to submit to this Committee within seven days as to the issues affecting the courts’ maximum operations so that it can address them in the Committee’s meeting with the Magistrates Commission.

Foreign language interpreters are another issue as interpreters are often unavailable, resulting in cases being delayed. There is a deeper issue here which needs to be tackled, including the problem of pricing of interpreters, where local interpreters would perhaps charge R16 an hour, whereas foreign interpreters would triple that. He asked how much the NPA knows about this issue.

He was also interested in the progress on the work done by Adv Cronje. In the organisation he comes from, there have been discussions at their conference to consolidate institutions, so that there is one responsible institution rather than having institutions all over the place. Rather than a stand-alone NPA, there would be an institution which houses all of these instruments to avoid fragmentation and an inability to progress because various parties have not been consulted.

Ms Maseko-Jele welcomed the good work of the NPA. She asked for changes to presentations to be sent in advance, particularly for Ms Newhoudt-Druchen as it would be more difficult for her to operate on this platform with incomplete presentations, but this affected all Members. She felt the Free State case should be dealt with decisively as a group of huge white men broke into the court. She was sure that the police were even intimidated.

Regarding meeting targets, the NPA should not be surprised if its budget is cut when it is not meeting its targets. That being said she appreciated the work which has been done She asked how efficient the collaboration which the NPA has with the JCPS cluster is considering the challenges the NPA still faces in doing its work. She asked how helpful the cluster will be in helping it do its work going forward. 

On the ID, an issue which discourages the country is the ability to handle corruption within the private sector as there is a perception that the private sector is being dealt with gently whilst coming down hard on the public sector. She asked for comment and progress in this respect as well as in the public sector.

On the AFU shortfall of its target, the presenter cited the delays in dealing with government officials. She asked for a report on the issues causing delay such that convictions have not fully taken place. She agreed with Mr Dyantyi on the mixed approach. Communities are still waiting for TRC cases to be dealt with. Families are still crying as it is felt that the Zondo Commission cases are being prioritised over the TRC.

The Chairperson thanked Ms Maseko-Jele and said that she was very clear. He noted that there were several questions and offered a comfort break of 5 minutes for the NDPP and her team to collect their responses.

NPA Responses

Backlogs
Adv De Kock recalled that even 20 years ago there was an issue with backlogs. Backlogs were not about whether prosecutors are doing their work but rather, about how the system works. As a whole the system has a number of role-players. The centre of the system is the judiciary. Case management was handed over to the judiciary; therefore leadership of the courts involves leadership of the judiciary. The NPA wants to ensure that the when a case is allocated for trial, that the prosecutors and lawyers are ready. Progress is, however, being made.

Electronic management system
The system is not yet paperless.

Discipline of prosecutors
Prosecutors are doing their work; however, the greater justice system needs to be addressed. All performance indicators have indicated red flags as far as the current finalisation of court matters is concerned. This is going to be difficult to catch up in the next few years, however a number of measures are being put in place to address this.

Farm attacks and murders
Where these matters are happening, they are of serious concern to the NPA. All murders are a priority, including farm murders. The pandemic of serious violence in the country is a serious concern for the NPA and it is dependent on the police to ensure that evidence is collected properly.

DNA lab function
The prosecution is dependent on the police and the labs doing their work. These issues are independently of the NPA but it is doing what it can to ensure that they collaborate.

Corruption
Working relationships between judicial partners need to be very strong in order to tackle this. These are being built as we speak and the NDPP would speak to them later in addressing the JCPS review.  Development in the fusion centre is about collaboration and these are all new initiatives. However, owing to the way the criminal justice system works in the country, credible and reliable evidence is needed and it needs to be presented to an independent adjudicator who can make decisions regarding the guilt or innocence of people. These are very serious matters which will take time to address, however, the NPA is working as fast as it can to ensure that corruption matters are addressed effectively.

87 remaining cases
On the question of the 26 cases on the court roll relative to the remaining 87 cases, the target set is that the remaining 87 cases are enrolled by the end of this financial year. The immediate target is enrolment of cases. Once the cases are enrolled, they will be taken further.

VBS and the PPE scandal
Adv De Kock said he would be guided by the Chairperson and the NDPP on questions regarding this as he did not think he could go into too much detail about these matters as they are currently on the court roll. The VBS matter would be on the roll the next day and there were developments as they spoke on that matter. Regarding the PPE matter, there are detailed reports which had been received from the fusion centre. He was sure that the NDPP would be happy to make available reports received from the fusion centre which set out the progress being made in relation to these matters.

TCCs and GBV
Adv Pierre Smith, Acting Special Director of Public Prosecutions, NPA, spoke to the TCCs and GBV issues as well as the legislation and amendment bills. He reiterated what Adv de Kock said relating to the DNA labs. He emphasised that the labs are the responsibility of SAPS’ Forensic Science Labs (FSL). These labs are responsible for the DNA analysis. It is correct that the NPA has submitted two specific communications to the National Commissioner in March and August where it specifically raised the issue of the shortage of DNA analysis reports which is creating an unfortunate backlog of cases being finalised in the relevant sexual offences courts and in other courts as well. Phase one of the NPAs approach involved the submission of information relating to 235 cases. In Phase two, the NPA submitted information relating to 1612 cases that are outstanding due to DNA shortages. Feedback has been received from FSL in 79 of those cases, where copies of the DNA reports were received and channelled to the relevant DPP divisions in order for the cases to be finalised. On 29 September, the SAPS and the NPA had a fruitful meeting which was attended by the Minister and Deputy Minister of Justice, Deputy Minister of Police and senior management of SAPS and the NPA. At this meeting, the NPA specifically raised the issue of the shortage of DNA reports. SAPS committed to prioritise these matters. There was also a commitment to touch base on a monthly basis, beginning at the end of October. He would be following up with a senior police official at the forensic scientist labs in Pretoria to learn how far they are in addressing the analysis being provided. Overall, the NPA is excited by the commitment received from SAPS.

Bail in GBV and serious cases
It is true that the President referred to GBV as a second pandemic. For Schedule 1 offences, in line with the Criminal Procedure Act, bail should be opposed where possible in all circumstances. In those instances where bail is not opposed, reasons for not opposing should be placed on record in court. However, the court has the discretion as to whether or not to grant bail and the final decision rests with the court, in so much as the NPA can oppose bail, or not. In Schedule 5 offences, the prosecution must submit reasons as to why bail should not be granted whilst in Schedule 6 offences; the defence should submit reasons as to why bail should be granted. This is an important distinction. Notably, the decision to grant bail remains with the court.

Amendment Bills
The NPA played a role in the drafting of the amendment bills: Domestic Violence, the Sexual Offences Amendment Act and the Criminal Procedure Act. The NPA is currently reviewing its training material and is including it into its training. Provision has been made for this. Additionally, the regulations promulgated on 7 February 2020 gave the Minister the power to designate certain courts as sexual offences courts. These regulations require that the NPA and other stakeholders must amend its policy directives in line with this and is currently in the process of doing so. These amendments have been submitted for the consultative process and they have already received feedback from the Department of Correctional Services (DCS). He thanked the Ms Newhoudt-Druchen for visiting a TCC centre.

Public Awareness of TCC
Running public awareness is the responsibility of all 55 TCCs. The day prior he issued an instruction that the sites decide what they are going to do for the 16 days of no violence campaign which kickstarts on 25 November. This is crucial as the NPA can play a role in prevention through education.

Resourcing of TTCs
The NPA is in the process of appointing 12 case management officers comprised of state advocates with specific expertise on GBV at TCC sites. The NPA is also appointing nine site managers and 16 victim assistance officers who play the crucial role of trauma containment counselling and in assisting the victims throughout the process. This is the NPAs contribution towards with the victim-centric approach endorsed by government.

Criminal Assets Recovery Account (CARA) funding
The NPA received R16 million and is in the process of utilising this for resourcing of equipment in TCC sites as well as in the hopes of establishing six new TCC sites within this financial year. The COVID-19 pandemic has had an impact on service providers who make this possible; however they are getting back on track. In many instances, the NPA needs to go on tender for the park homes that need to be tendered which cost anything from R800 000 and R1 million each. An amount of R6 million needs to go on tender and the process has been kickstarted.

Children as victims at TCCs
About 57% of cases at TCCs involve children as victims and it is therefore a huge area of focus, particularly in the advance training done for prosecutors as well as when it does integrated training with its stakeholders. A concerted, collective effort, with a specialised focus is needed, on how to deal with children in GBV matters. This is also covered in the NPAs Social Context Awareness training module.

TCC criteria
The TCCs are the under the responsibility of the NPA, however there are also Khuseleka One Stop Centres which fall under the responsibility of the Department of Social Development (DSD) and Kgomotso Care Centres under the Department of Health (DOH). These all have a different focus in providing services to victims. the TCC model aims at pulling all of the services together with the case being finalised in court eventually. The other two centres have a different focus so that they do not repeat service provisions.

In deciding where to place a TCC centre, the NPA looks at the number of sexual offence matters reported at a police station in a particular area. It then considers whether it is an urban or rural area and whether the incidents are gang related or prone to gang or drug related offences. This is crucial because those offences often end up in GBV and femicide offences also being committed. It also considers whether there is a specialised sexual offences courts in the area, and whether there is a family violence sexual offences and child abuse unit from SAPS which is providing services in the area and whether there is stakeholder collaboration in place. This is important as the TCC model is an integrated model with the DoH, DSD and SAPS. The final criterion is accommodation or space availability. If this is done in a hospital, it is often cheaper than securing park homes. Where park homes need to be secured, it needs to be established whether there is enough space on the DoH premises. Other responsibilities such as electricity and water also need to be taken into consideration. The importance of these sites being at a hospitals, clinics or a DoH facility is because of the crucial impact played by forensic medical examination in these cases. It is often the most crucial evidence to pull the cases through the courts.

Adv De Kock added he noted 2 issues he did not cover.

SCCU vacancy rate
There has been an improvement in the vacancy rate in this financial year and it is currently at 20%. Part of the approach with private practitioners is to introduce contract appointments. There have been a number of contract appointments made and Treasury has been approached for a deviation to ensure that the NPA can appoint on a 3-year contract. The new appointments have reduced the vacancy rate to 13%.

Murder of law enforcement officials
These are very serious matters. The Kinnear case is being dealt with closely with the investigators. Allegations in the form of a report from the DPP was received the previous day regarding the allegations that the NPA is not dealing with matters. It is still looking into this however it is happy to report on this if a report is required.

The NDPP said that the country is falling into a state of lawlessness. This is a huge challenge to the JCPS cluster and government needs to look at what each entity can do in their spaces. The lawlessness at the courts should be condemned with the utmost censure. The rule of law must prevail in this country and it doesn’t matter who is at the end of the evidence, proper investigation and prosecution must be conducted.

AFU
Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba said she was responding to the query after consultation with colleagues and her own reading as to the long- and short-term issues which have plagued the AFU. The AFU began in 1998 after the promulgation of the Prevention of Organised Crime Act. One long term problem is that since its promulgation, the Act has not been amended. As such, from the 600 cases decided by the AFU, it is clear that the legislation is complex and it has not been able to finalise cases. In fact, there are even cases dating back to 2000 and 2003 which are still in the AFUs books. These cases have resulted in high fees paid to the curator bonis and as a result there is R4 million fruitless expenditure owing to curator fees in a particular matter. The AFU is co-operating in a process led by the DOJ in amending the legislation. This legislation was modelled on legislation in the UK which has since been amended twice, while there has been no amendment in South Africa.

Another issue is budget. For the last five years the AFU has functioned on skeleton staff. The annual performance plan alluded to the fact that a change of leadership towards the end resulted in issues such as low staff morale. In the past the targets were increased while cases were not being finalised. There are about 326 cases in the AFU which have not been finalised dating back to 2000. The AFU took the point that if it does not achieve its targets, it will not be given a budget. In the previous financial year, the targets were ramped up and were unrealistic because there was the anticipation that a number of assets would be seized from state capture cases. Although these targets were increased, the AFU did not have the skills needed or the people to deliver, particularly in corruption cases and cases involving government officials. It has demonstrated in the last week that it is able to deal with these matters if a concerted effort is made. It has also ceased the pension benefits of some state officials in the Asbestos case. A long-term problem of the AFU is its investigative capacity. By this she meant that AFU is in-between investigations and prosecutions. Unlawfulness needs to be proved before papers can be brought before the court in terms of chapter five and six. Successful prosecution is needed in chapter five in order for money to be forfeited to the state. Where cases are going on for over 20 years, the criminal prosecution continues. The AFU has not been able to employ investigators since 2009 when the Scorpions or the Directorate of Special Operations (DSO) was disbanded and there are 75 vacant posts. These posts will not be filled in the short term because the process of evaluating these posts is ongoing and is being led by the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA).

Short term solutions for the AFU
Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba said that since she joined on 2 June 2020, she focused on finalising the 326 cases as they will yield R179 million. To date, the AFU has closed 40 cases and the process is underway to deposit the money into the CARA. Secondly, the high-performance strategy includes legislative amendments, particularly as the country is lagging behind on provisions to do with beneficial ownership and unexplained wealth which would assist in putting more into the state coffers. Part of the high-performance strategy involves looking into staff morale as the few people who have been there over the years have endured high workloads and were not achieving the targets.

The NDPP said that the NPA will achieve its targets, not only because it wants to achieve the targets, but also because the NPA would like to make a difference a change for the better in the country. She asked Adv Hermione Cronje to comment on the Investigative Directorate.

Investigative Directorate (ID)
Adv Hermione Cronje said that that the directorate was created in April 2019 and was first announced by the President in order to achieve its mandate of tackling serious and high profile corruption. This remains the mandate both in government and in the private sector. Both sides of the coin have to be addressed. This signals a departure from the way that cases have previously been managed. High profile cases such as Bosasa and the Vrede Dairy Farm cases are the kinds of cases being dealt with, which have been removed from the roll. It is also focussing on state-owned enterprises.

She flagged that a number of the agencies where the NPA was drawing its investigators from had been depleted and some had faced capture. The NPA had also not been keeping pace with the development in investigations such as the explosion of email, servers and fast electronic transfers. These capabilities needed to be accessed quickly. Whilst its mandate is to focus on the most serious corruption, its resources rely very heavily on bringing people on a case-by-case basis to do the work. As a methodology, this had not been given a lot of attention. Section 7 of the NPA Act, through which the ID was established, says that the way in which the ID is to be resourced is through the secondment of investigators. The NPA will therefore procure investigators through other institutions such as SAPS and the DPCI.

She was encouraged that there has been a creative structure created within the police to assist the ID. SAPS  is creating a structure within it called the Investigating Directorate Secondment Structure. People are being employed and being assigned to work in the ID, which is going to result in a more permanent pool of police investigators with police powers who will assist the prosecution in dealing with cases. This has dealt with the investigator deficit. It has not however resolved the issue of forensic accounting skills and digital accounting skills. This is why the ID has approached the Zondo Commission in order to access these skills.

Zondo Commission and the regulation
Adv Cronje said the NPA has always had access to the information made available to the public. The regulation gave the NPA access to the information in the background which had not yet made it into the public domain. The regulation removed the prohibition on sharing information with law enforcement. This means that people who worked in the Commission can be employed to assist the NPA. The NPA had to look to the market to employ someone to create a system to process petabytes of information at great cost to the NPA. It is now in the process of finalising a memorandum of understanding to make this capability available to it.

Skill and capacity
On the question of why people from the bar are not asked to come and render services, the NPA has explored this and the key statutory mechanism to exploit in order to be able to do this is section 38 of the NPA Act which provides for specialised services to be appointed in particular cases. The section requires the Minister of Justice and of Finance to agree on terms and conditions of employment for such people. The complexity arises in the fact that these people can be appointed on prosecutor salaries. The amount specialists are paid in the private sector is completely out of proportion with what prosecutors earn. A lot of work needs to go into how not to undermine the work of prosecutors who are working really hard, day-to-day.

Recovery of funds abroad
Whilst a plan is being worked on with Adv Rabaji-Rasethaba to ensure that Asset Forfeiture remains a priority, the big challenge is recovering money abroad.  Assistance is needed with recognition by other countries and extradition. Relating to the UAE, there are huge challenges in accessing money lost there and there is a real possibility that the government may need to cut its losses and focus on what can be recovered from other countries. It is a challenge which the government will have to look at closely at in determining what levers it can press to get countries that have indicated they are willing to assist and have not yet been forthcoming, to provide assistance.

On the bigger corruption cases, she felt it important to indicate the focus of the IDs cases. The strategy is a multi-level approach to hold people in high levels accountable. Such cases take time even in countries with greater capabilities to do so than South Africa. The NPA is working closely with the USA in observing how they implement this, however

Aspirant prosecutor programme
Adv Karen van Rensburg said that there are 450 slots which will be filled in the coming month.

Allegations against the NPA
Adv Batohi said the NPA is being very careful to follow due process in order not to be seen to be conducting a witch-hunt. The process is being followed.

Overturning racketeering charges
Adv Batohi said the she has overturned some charges, however the underlying murder and related charges were sent to the DPP in KwaZulu-Natal, Adv Elaine Zungu, who has declined to prosecute in respect of the underlying crimes.

Eastern Cape
The NDPP confirmed that there were allegations regarding nepotism, unfair practices and other allegations against the NPA, which is why she appointed an independent investigator - Adv Luvuyo Bono- to prepare a report for the NPA. The report has since been received; interventions have been put in place.

Conviction Rates and the Comment of the Chief Justice
The NDPP said conviction rates are not the end all and be-all. At the end of the day, the NPA desires for justice to be achieved and if justice comes in the form of a conviction, then the NPA strives to ensure that it will be achieved. Conviction rates are a commonly accepted international benchmark for the strength of a prosecuting authority.

TCCs and distance travelled to find one
The NDPP said the NPA is depending extensively on external funding. At present there is a commitment to fund five more centres. Related to the concern about the distances that people have to travel to access a TCC is the issue of funding. The more funds it has towards TCCs, the more it will be able to set-up. Recently, she asked for an evaluation to be conducted in all of the centres to ensure that the services provided are uniform and of the same high standard across the board. She was aware that several evaluations have been done previously but nothing happened afterwards. Many of the funders are tired of only receiving the evaluations. The NDPP has since instructed that all of these recommendations be pooled together in order to be properly interrogated so that the recommendations can be implemented in a way that produces results. TCCs are important and are international best practice, so it is important to the NPA to ensure that its funded standard is maintained.

NPA autonomy consultant report
The NDPP said the external consultant appointed to look into this change has produced a comprehensive report for the NPA on this matter. The consultant was a former prosecutor who had a strong institutional knowledge and she felt that this was a better decision than using internal capacity and having to start from scratch. Donor funding was used; therefore, it did not cost the NPA. There are various aspects and facets to this topic which require that very constructive engagements need to be held with the Minister and the DoJ&CD. She did not wish to pre-empt this by discussing in a public forum, things which she should ideally be discussing with the Minister. The NPA is drafting a memorandum for the Minister, and after this, it will share something with the Committee which will give more detail. In all likelihood, legislative changes may be involved. The issue of the independence of the NPA has been litigated and there have been articles written on it. It’s a topic which is a reality. This reality brings to bear the questions of how an NDPP and the NPA are protected from the political influence. In the roadmap, the NPA and the Minister is looking at this aspect and to the extent that it can, to ensure there are processes to ensure that irrespective of who is in the Executive or who the NDPP is, the legal framework protects an NDPP from influence. The NPA will therefore put recommendations forward to this effect, as the Executive is also involved. These processes aim to protect not only the NDPP but also the layer below: the Deputy Director, Chief Prosecutors and all the layers of the NPA that need to be protected from improper influence.

She agreed with Mr Dyantyi that there needs to be delivery whilst the NPA is re-building. This is true and is the goal; however, expectations need to be tempered. The NPA is committed to collaborate and bring cases as it is rebuilding

Effectiveness of the JCPS cluster
Adv Batohi felt that the JCPS cluster is not achieving what it should be. The object of the cluster is that the people of South Africa feel safer and the reality is that they do not. The cluster recognises the fact that it needs to re-assess its structure to ensure efficacy. There are 6 sub-committees in the JCPS which are currently being looked at in order to be improved.

TRC cases
This is a huge priority for the NPA and an aspect which is seriously concerning. The NPA is not an investigative agency. The DPCI is an investigative agency but without the requisite investigative and prosecutorial capacity in order to do this. More people are needed to do this work, and where an investment is made, there should be a showing that it has in fact translated to results. The NPA is struggling as potential witnesses, loved ones and suspects are dying without justice being served. The NPA is engaging with the DPCI, however there needs to be a push from a higher level.

Changes to the presentation
She apologised for the changes to the presentation and committed to ensuring that this does not happen again in future.

Court times and inconvenience
Witnesses should be informed when the magistrate will not be appearing and there will be follow up on this kind of occurrence.

A single entity
This is a matter which government needs to decide. One thing is beyond doubt: unless, you have a single entity with a single command structure and all the capabilities and capacity, we will always be touching only the tip of the iceberg in terms of corruption. It is therefore important that a decision be made on this and that the necessary commitments and processes are put in place, whatever the decision is in that regard.

Employment equity profile
A full report would be sent to the Committee.

IPSO 
This is meant to be a way where the NPO is looking to innovate. This will be sent to the Committee in writing.

Independent Professional Accountable and Credible (IPAC) NPA
At the next meeting the NPA would present further on this.

The NDPP and her team thanked the Committee for their recognition of the work done in the Asbestos case..
 
Mr Horn asked about the Mutual-legal assistance with the UAE and whether this means that there is nothing the NPA can do unless the Gupta’s return to the country.

Adv Swart thanked the NPA for its work, as the progress brings hope to the nation. On issue of jurisdiction, he said that Adv Cronje had indicated that it was working closely with the US. As she would be aware, a number of the transactions in issue were conducted in US dollars. As such, the US would have jurisdiction over those matters. Without exposing anything that might be delicate, he though some assistance from the US or INTERPOL would be possible. He asked for clarity on this point.

Mr Dyantyi said that there is a serious allegation against the NPA relating to the Charl Kinnear case. Adv De Kock said he had received a report on the matter and the Committee needs to see the report even if the NDPP has not seen that report. The Committee needs the report in order to determine whether the NPA is indeed implicated as per the allegations.

Ms Mofokeng acknowledged that while not every case will be answered to, the NPA needs to produce a template of how to answer questions raised by the members. She thought it might be helpful for the NPA produce a list of matters which are raised in public and send it to the NPA in order to receive regular progress reports.  When members raise concerns, it is because constituents have raised them. She asked for progress reports more regularly as there are many cases that the Committee deals with. She concluded by congratulating the NPA on the CEO of VBS getting 10 years imprisonment.
 
NPA responses
Adv Cronje said that it is not true that there is nothing that can be done with regard to the Guptas and the UAE. There are a number of tricks which the NPA has up its sleeves and the USA having jurisdiction over all transactions conducted in dollars is an avenue which it has considered.

The NDPP recognised the desire to get responses on matters such as the Steinhoff case. It is now in the top 10 priority list between the DPCI and the NPA. It is a matter which when she took over last year, the NPA had very little capacity to address. This issue will be a recurring one as technically it is a matter which should be dealt with by the ID, however they do not have the capacity to deal with it. She does, however, know that the NPS and the AFU are working on this.

She committed to looking into finding a way to communicate some level of information to the people without compromising the cases so that work is seen to be done.

The Chairperson thanked the NPA on the work it is doing. He commented that the Committee kept its promise in giving the NDPP more time the next time she presented.

The NDPP responded warmly, saying that the Committee had also said she would be given a harder time and it had kept that promise too.

The Chairperson said there is a need for some real time information as this would be beneficial for the public.

Referring to vacancies, he commented that what is in the report is scary, but there have been improvements. He asked that vacancies be segregated according to the bodies responsible.

On overhauling the NPA and Public Protector legislation, this needs to be considered as the burden may be too large for the Committee. He suggested that an ad-hoc committee be created so that when the committee comes to the end of its tenure it does not leave with incomplete matters. He also asked that the NPA provide the Committee with a list of maters in which it needs the Committee’s support.

He agreed with Adv Swart and Mr Dyantyi that the Committee should help the NPA to keep its budget. However, he felt that there needs to be a bigger vision which means that things are run differently to the way they have been managed in the past. If National Treasury does not want to come to the party, the Committee needs to look at legal mechanisms to ensure that it does not lose its budget. There is no reason that money should not be given to entities that are bringing money back into the country. Towards the end of the term, the Committee would be calling the AFU for a detailed presentation. If there are cases which have been going on for 20 years, there will be a depreciation of those assets; therefore the Committee needs to place a lot of focus on the AFU.

An act of intimidation against prosecutors and magistrates in a court of law is an affront to the rule of law. This should be strongly condemned.

He asked how the NPA is using artificial intelligence to ensure prosecutors are able to do their work smarter and faster. We are meant to be in a fourth industrial revolution, and yet he is sure that the DoJ is still in the second industrial revolution and merely dealing with the mass processing of information. The Committee would be interested in learning how artificial intelligence will be included as part of the NPAs strategic intervention. Finally, he asked how the NPA intends to brand itself to be sexier or whatever kind of brand which would make it an employer of choice.

The NDPP thanked the Committee for both its commitment to holding the NPA accountable and also for its support and guidance. She committed to presenting a better picture going forward.

Committee Report on the appointment of a part time member to the Information Regulator
The Chairperson tabled the report for consideration. The report dealt with the filing of the vacancy left by the resignation of Professor Tana Pistorius as a part time member of the Information Regulator.

Adv Breytenbach suggested that the Committee deal with the corrections.

Adv Swart referred to paragraph 2.6 and asked if needs to be underlined.

Adv Breytenbach corrected the spelling of the Professor’s name in paragraph 3.5 on page three. She felt that that the underlining in 2.6 should remain because if there is a question about 4.1.2, it is easy to refer back to the underlined section.

Adv Swart accepted this.

The Chairperson felt that Adv Breytenbach was correct as in terms of proper governance, it is recommended that there should always be staggered appointments. This is so as to avoid a situation where you have new people all together. Whatever happens to the others, next year, there will be at least one person continuing. He therefore felt it important that she be appointed for the five-year term.

Adv Breytenbach agreed.

The report recommended Ms Alison Tilley should for the position of Part-Time Member of the Information Regulator

Mr Xola moved to adopt and Ms Maseko-Jele seconded

The Chairperson said that the report was duly adopted.

The meeting was adjourned.