Department of Provincial & Local Government Budget: briefing

Meeting report

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATION SELECT COMMITTEE
28 May 2003
DEPARTMENT OF PROVINCIAL & LOCAL GOVERNMENT BUDGET: BRIEFING

Chairperson: Mr B Mkhaliphi (ANC)

Documents handed out:
Presentation by the Director General on Budget Overview
Annexure 1: Presentation on Key Aspects of the Budget
Annexure 2: Presentation on Governance and Development Branch
Annexure 3: Integrated Sustainable Rural Development and Urban Renewal Programmes
Annexure 4: Presentation on Intergovernmental Relations
Annexure 5: Presentation on Free Basic Services
Annexure 6: Presentation on Infrastructure Investment: CMIP, MIG
Annexure 7: Presentation on Economic Development: LED, Social Plan
Annexure 8: Institutional Reform and Support Branch presentation
Annexure 10: Institutional Capacity Building and Support presentation
Annexure 11: Disaster Management presentation
Annexure 13: Administration Programme presentation
Annexure 14: Organisational Transformation presentation
Department's Budget (link to Treasury website)
Organogram of Department's directorates

SUMMARY
The Department of Provincial and Local Government, with contributions from its top officials, presented the key aspects of its 2003/4 Budget and Programmes. The ensuing discussion touched on issues such as the role of the Department in job creation, Relief Disaster Programmes and the problem of cross-border municipalities.

MINUTES
Budget Overview Presentation
Ms Msengana-Ndlela (Director General, DPLG) presented the document on the Budget Overview.

Macro Summary of Budget Allocations and Division of Revenue Act
Mr C Clerihew (Chief Financial Officer, DPLG) covered Annexure One in the file of annexures, presenting an overview of Budget Allocations.

Institutional Reform and Support Presentation
Ms J Manche (Deputy Director General: Institutional Reform and Support, DPLG) covered Annexure Eight in the file of annexures.

Government Development Branch
Mr E. Africa (Deputy Director General: Governance and Development, DPLG) gave an overview of the Government Development Branch.

Discussion
Ms Botha (DA, Free State) referred to the assertion by the Department that 28 million people were given access to free basic electricity. She asked for confirmation that a lot of attention was given to rural areas in this regard.

Ms Manche (Deputy Director General) confirmed this.

Ms Botha (DA) asked the Department to provide the committee with more information in this regard. She also asked them to comment on steps they had taken towards this, especially with regards to money owed to them by Government and the Private Sector

Ms Msengana-Ndlela (Director General) alerted the committee to the Departmental strategy of Managed Financial Liability. She said that this would primarily be a municipal revenue program. One aspect of that would be the strengthening of systems of debt collection. They focus on quick action with regards to business and Government debts. The Department was also looking into other methods of debt collection, such as receiving payments through national payment systems.

Ms Botha (DA) commented that she was impressed by the consolidation of projects, especially those concerned with job creation. She asked the Department if it thought that the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) would be better placed to run such programs. She illustrated her point by stating that in some rural areas, simple maintenance tasks such as keeping the graveyards in good condition were simply not done. If they cannot manage the funds give to them, she asserted, would it not be better to involve a more specialized body like the Department of Trade and Industry.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela responded by firstly mentioning that she had worked at the Department of Trade and Industry before working for the DPLG. She appreciated the points that were raised. She said that they ought to realize that they are talking about Government when they are talking about job creation. The effects of job creation must be at a local level. Municipalities must have some programmes to ensure that there is this link. Surely municipalities can have a role. They could develop a policy together with the Department of Trade and Industry.

Ms Khondlo (ANC, Eastern Cape) stated that she had briefly read the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government's Report about the visits they had made to municipalities. The report made mention of the role played by Ward Committees, and it referred to them as being very critical. She asked if there was anything that the Department has considered in assisting Ward Committees.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela replied that there was a conference that they would be attending in June and they would be dealing with the issue then.

Mr Horne (ANC, Northern Cape) stated that he did not agree that job creation is a function of the DPLG. If 60% of people did not pay for services, he argued, then it would not be possible for the Department to get funds for job creation.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela explained that job creation is not necessarily a 'function' of Local Government, but it has to play a role in local development. That is why one would have different spheres of government linking up.

Prince Zulu (ANC, Kwazulu Natal) made the comment that the Department was doing very well in providing basic services to the poor. However, there were some people who were still left out of the provision of services. He asked the Department if they did anything to follow up and assist these people.

No response was given to this question.

Prince Zulu (ANC) raised the subject of Presidential Nodes. He said that there was confusion with regards to who was supposed to fund them. He asked the Department to bring clarity to the issue.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela referred to Annexure Three in the file of annexures. Here it addresses the point Prince Zulu raised about who is responsible for what.

Mr Mokoena (ANC, Northern Province) firstly commended the Department for the professionalism they showed in their presentation. He asked how the Department is assisting municipalities with their budgets. He stated that they were discovering a policy of 'Everybody for himself and God for us all' operating in a lot of the municipalities which they had visited. There was no proper monitoring of how funds were being utilized in these areas. He asked how involved the DPLG was in ensuring that the municipalities were up and running.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela replied that they were going to be monitoring grant management monthly. This would require them to increase their capacity. This is also going to require total dedication and commitment from all involved.

Mr Mokoena (ANC) asked the Department how it was implementing management and financial control training. He expressed concern over a practice that he had witnessed once, where a large number of employees were simply put in a large hall and instructed en masse - as a form of departmental training. He questioned the fruitfulness of this exercise.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela replied that with training, they needed an integrated strategy. She referred to Annexure Ten in the file of annexures, pages two and three. She stated that they wanted to finalise their capacity building programme. She agreed that a policy of 'one size fits all' could not be used. Training must be based on practical objectives.

Mr Mokoena (ANC) brought up the issue of the White Paper. He mentioned that the key functions listed for the Mahoshe municipality was the controlling of firewood and monitoring the initiation process. He argued that they were dealing with people here, with minds, who could think and who deserved better lives.

Ms Msengana-Ndlela replied that the Minister of Provincial and Local Government would make pronouncements on the issue of the White Paper at a later stage. Since the first version of the Paper was completed in October 2001, there had been 76 workshops held and they had received comments from various bodies and organizations, so a lot would have changed since then.

Mr Mokoena (ANC) raised the issue of cross-border municipalities where there were often administration and service delivery problems. He explained that one often gets a situation of a "tug-o-war" as to who is supposed to service what. He asked the Department to comment on this and how they were planning to carry out the amalgamation of municipalities, in light of this.

Ms Manche agreed that cross-border municipalities often had challenges around administration and service delivery. These municipalities were monitored and a report was published by the Presidential Co-ordinating Council (PCC), supported by Provincial Premiers. The PCC took a decision to do away with boundaries. As a Department, she continued, they are trying to carry out the PCC resolution. With regards to the amalgamation of municipalities, the decision still has to be taken on a PCC level.

Prince Zulu raised the subject of Disaster Management Centers. He had recently visited a Natural Disaster Management Forum in Pretoria. To him it seemed as if Disaster Relief Programme Managers merely go to affected areas, give orders and then leave. According to an explanation given at the Forum, Programme Managers argue that this is all they can do because they do not have the funds to carry out a Disaster Management Project for even one week. What was the Department going to do about this?

Ms Manche explained that the funding they allocate for Disaster Management is dedicated to deal with disasters in many parts. The advent of a disaster is dealt with in an ad-hoc manner. Disaster Management also has a split responsibility: to the Department of Social Development, the DPLG, and also Treasury. They were trying to look at a way of cutting through the red tape and institutional 'bottle-necks'. Their aim was to address disaster situations with speed.

Prince Zulu inquired as to whether mayors have the right to 'dish out' funds when they wanted to. He explained that he was asking in light of the utterances of a certain mayor in KwaZulu-Natal who was 'boasting' that he had given funds to people that were in need.

Ms Manche replied that mayors did have discretionary funds and that most of the time these are used in disasters. There are rules which govern the use of these funds, but the DPLG has no control over that.

The Chair asked what the Department's interaction and co-operation was with LGWSETA (Local Government and Water Sectoral Education and Training Authority).

Ms Manche replied that there had been challenges in dealing with LGWSETA. The Department does not have voting rights with the SETA. Together with the Minister of Labour, the Department had realised that there was a problem with SETA training at a local government level. However, the relationship with the SETA has improved and is now much closer. The Department is trying to go beyond their 'observer' status when pertaining to voting rights.

Mr Mkhaliphi (ANC) followed up his question by asking how the SETA featured in their overall strategy of capacity building.

Ms Manche responded that LGWSETA was responsible for training in a number of aspects. They are responsible for the training of officials that are below management level. The Department has also initiated some programmes in co-operation with LGWSETA.

The meeting was adjourned.