Independent Police Investigative Directorate Strategic Plan 2013 & selected provincial statistics

Meeting report

Independent Police Investigative Directorate: Strategic Plan 2013
Ms Koekie Mbeki, Acting Executive Director, Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID), introduced her team, and noted that not every head of every province had been invited; the provincial heads of the largest offices dealing with the most matters had been included and would present briefly on the status of the IPID in those provinces.

Ms Mbeki noted that the Strategic and Annual Performance Plans (APP) would show that the IPID operated with four functions, although the budget structure still spoke to three programmes. There should be full alignment by the following year. The main reason for changing the APP was to align the programmes to the IPID Act, but the budgeting processes had, by the stage that the Act was passed, already passed. This would explain the variations in headings.

The strategic direction for the next five years was contextualised in the presentation, by noting how far the IPID had gone since the IPID Act (the Act) came into effect on 1 April 2012. The IPID had drafted regulations talking to the processes of investigations, and it then developed standard operating procedures to ensure uniformity in investigations, and a training manual to allow the investigators to be up to date with what was now in the IPID Act. It had also set up executive directives. The re-naming was completed, and the IPID was now known by that name, with no reference to its predecessor. It was implementing the expanded mandate, save for investigation of systemic corruption, in terms of section 28 of the Act. It had investigated a number of high profile cases, including Cato Manor and Marikana, which enabled the Commission of Inquiry to sit. It was also building a relationship with the South African Police Service (SAPS) that had obligations to do certain things in terms of the SAPS and IPID Act, and had a draft Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with them. New components - Legal Services, and Corporate Services - had been established. IPID was moving on the devolution and delegation of powers and functions to provinces. IPID was now included in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster and was building relationships with other institutions.

Ms Mbeki noted that there were many external factors impacting on the work that IPID did. There was an increase in violent and service delivery protests, and an increase in the need for crowd control by SAPS.. All investigations were required to be done within 90 days, with certain exceptions. There were sometimes unrealistic expectations by the general public and other state institutions of what IPID could do. Many matters fell outside the mandate of IPID, and there was some confusion about its role vis-a-vis other institutions. The expanded mandate resulted in an increased workload, and there were not enough satellite offices. Although there were offices in each province, these were not sufficient to provide full accessibility.

Other internal challenges and risks were described. The IPID had experienced high staff turnover, especially at lower levels, because the salaries it offered were not comparable to those in other departments, and because of far distances that investigators must travel. Some staff lacked skills, because some people doing administrative support had to be transferred to investigators, and they still needed training. IPID continued to experience non-reporting by SAPS, and lack of feedback on recommendations, despite what was set out in section 28. It was hoped that the situation would improve. Unplanned investigation projects such as farm violence and Marikana also impacted on the regular workflow.

Ms Mbeki set out the strategic priorities for the next five years, stressing that IPID would ensure independent oversight over SAPS and the municipal police services and to conduct independent and impartial investigations of identified criminal offences. In this year, it had included systemic corruption in the strategic plan and was aiming also for strategic alignment of planning, budgeting and reporting frameworks. It would be re-engineering systems, processes and structures and functions. It was aiming to increase the investigative capacity, training and capacity building, and to develop performance management systems. She set out a schematic diagram and hierarchy of the overall plan, in slide 9 (see attached presentation).

Ms Mbeki noted that the strategic outcomes of IPID were linked to the National Development Plan (NDP), particularly government outcomes 3 (that all people feel safe and secure) and 12 (calling for an efficient and effective public service).

The changes to the institutional arrangements were expanded upon.  Programme 1 dealt with governance and stakeholder management, Programme 2 with Corporate Services (support and management of resources, financial management and training), Programme 3 with Investigation, and Programme 4 with legal services (supporting investigations that could be prosecution-driven). She reiterated that the budget structure had not yet changed, but IPID was engaging with National Treasury to implement the changes in 2014.

Ms Lindokuhle Ngcongo, Chief Financial Officer, IPID, noted that the Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE) were aligned to the NDP. Performance, personnel and finances were discussed together in each programme, in respect of their impact on the plans. The 2013/14 budget baseline was set in the context of the slow economic recovery and the fact that departments were requested to remain within their historic baseline. IPID received R217 million for 2013/14, an improvement from R210 million in the previous year. It was set to increase to R247.2 million by 2015/16. Additional funding was provided to help IPID implement the Act, and the average growth in revenue was around 7.7%.

Ms Ngcongo repeated the overarching goal, to contribute towards ensuring a police service that was trusted by the community, which it did by ensuring that people were safe, and combating corruption within the cluster. It contributed to the NDP by ensuring that the police service was trusted by the community, and that it played an important role in fighting corruption. Inspiring confidence in the justice system was the most effective deterrent against crime.

There would be a minimal introduction of new posts over the next three years, but the investigative capacity in the provinces would be increased, and skills would be improved. She set out the budget, by programme, and said that this showed that, consistently, the investigation and administrative management functions would get the greatest allocation. She also detailed the division by economic classification (see attached slides 25 to 27).

The purposes of each of the programmes was then set out, with the sub-budgets, comparing them to the previous financial year. In Programme 1, there had been reprioritisation of funds to compensation of employees, in line with the proposals made in 2012 to assist with building capacity in the IPID. In the upcoming cycle, the IPID would be concentrating on internal accommodation needs, establishing and maintaining sectoral and intergovernmental relations and performance audits by internal governance structures. Budgets were also tabled for each of the sub-programmes.

Programme 2 was intended to facilitate the IPID processes, and develop policy and strategic frameworks that guided and reported on investigations. Once again, the largest increase was seen in compensation of employees, in line with the 2012 budget analysis. Overall, there was a 17% increase. The focus areas for spending would be section 28 (of the IPID Act) investigations. IPID would emphasise investigation management, and maintaining a case flow management system and database. Budgets for sub-programmes also reflected an emphasis on investigation management.

Programme 3 managed and facilitated the provision of investigations advisory services. This budget had decreased by 20% from the previous year. The unit would be providing sound legal advice, supporting drafting of service level agreements and contracts, and issuing of practice notes and directives.

Ms Charlotte Lobe, Acting Director: Executive Support, IPID, noted the strategic orientation was informed by Chapter 12 of the NDP. The building of safer communities would also involve proper resourcing of the SAPS, to ensure that officers were professional and highly skilled. IPID would have to "police the Police for a safer South Africa". She repeated that the introduction of the new programme resulted from the expanded mandate under the new Act. The purpose of Programme 1 was to be responsible for overall management of IPID, to provide policy and strategic leadership, and to enhance the IPID ability to delivery on government priorities. She outlined the sub-programmes, and their purpose (see slide 39 for full details). She noted that the activities would result in better accessibility for the public, better performance management systems, with updated policies and guidelines. Some of the indicators set out in the APP included making 60 media statements, four formal engagements with key stakeholders, and 108 formal engagements at provincial level. It aimed to submit 13 performance management and evaluation reports, and 21 financial and strategic reports. Quarterly breakdowns were given.

Programme 2 provided corporate management services, ICT, communication and marketing, auxiliary services, human resource (HR) management and development services. She described the activities of each, noted that this would result in IPID being accessible, ensure that its performance management systems operated optimally, and that it was re-engineered. There would be 306 community outreach events. Details were set out of employment equity statistics. The HR plan would be updated and implemented annually. The ICT plan had been approved, and the first phase had started in March 2013, with phase 2 to start in 2015. Currently, the staff establishment was 349, and a breakdown for each office was given. Most were investigators, in line with the core mandate.

Mr Matthews Sesoko, Acting Chief Director, Investigations and Information Management, IPID, noted that the NDP said that by 2030 people should feel fully safe and have a life free of fear. IPID had therefore structured Programme 3 to impact positively on the stated government priorities. In the 2012/13 financial year the IPID had experienced an increase in workload, and this required it to revise the strategy on investigation of cases and to provide for strategies on proactive investigation of systemic corruption. The IPID had also started engagement with SAPS and the Secretary for Police to improve on SAPS compliance with obligations under the Act. Programme 3 conducted investigations and coordinated processes through the development of investigative policy and strategic frameworks, and managed reporting on performance and statistical information. The purpose of the three sub-programmes and outputs was set out in slides 55 and 56. IPID aimed to have 98% of cases that it received both registered and allocated within 72 hours of receipt, and this target remained for the following two years. It aimed to generate 18 reports for the Ministers, and percentage targets were also included for cases investigated, recommendations made and the outcomes (see slide 57). The backlog should be reduced by 50% in the MTEF period. The following slide, slide 58, set out the targets by percentage for completed investigations, with time frames. IPID aimed to refer 100% of recommendation reports on completed cases to SAPS within 30 days of completion of the investigation, and to refer 100% of recommendation reports to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) within 30 days as well. Feedback reports on investigations should be provided within the same time frame.

Mr Sesoko then outlined the targets for Programme 4: Legal Services. This programme played a vital role in supporting the core business of investigation of cases. It also provided general advice to the IPID, and was well positioned to assess and evaluate the quality of recommendations made by the provincial offices. It also would give input into the operations to avoid unnecessary litigation against the investigators. In summary, it managed and facilitated the provision of investigation advisory services and provided litigation advisory services, would coordinate civil and labour litigation matters, and give legal advice and guidance to investigators during and after the completion of investigations and the granting of policing powers to investigators.  It was divided into two sub-programmes. Time frames of 30 days were targeted for contracts and service level agreements, which it aimed to meet for 90% of matters. For providing legal opinions and policies, it was hoped that 90% would be provided within 21 days. It aimed to issue four practice notes and directives, provide 90% of legal advice within 24 hours to investigators and process 100% of applications for policing powers within five working days.

Provincial IPID presentations on cases against SAPS officials
Western Cape
Mr Thabo Leholo, Acting Provincial Head: Western Cape, IPID, took Members through the presentation on Western Cape Police brutality in the provinces. He tabled a slide showing the jurisdiction, noting that in the Western Cape, there were 146 police stations. The ratio of police to population was 1: 245. The ratio of IPID investigators to SAPS was 1:985. There were, on average, six stations per cluster. There were serious challenges of capacity and high volume of intake and two more investigators would be needed per cluster 

He outlined the numbers of active cases in the province, breaking them down into the specific contraventions, showing a total of 1 108 cases as at end February 2013. The highest number of cases were assault cases, of which there were 874. There were 55 cases presently before the district or regional courts, with one in the High Court.

The Western Cape tried to mitigate police brutality by conducting outreach programmes on the mandate of the IPID to the SAPS, speaking also on human rights, and also presented to clusters and cluster commanders. There were joint monthly meetings between the provincial office and IPID, and other monthly meetings to discuss operational challenges and the implementation of the IPID Act. IPID would expedite investigations and recommendations to the SAPS and Directorate of Public Prosecutions (DPP). Project-driven investigations were instituted in rural areas, West Coast, Boland and Southern Cape. It was monitoring cases on the court rolls.

There were about 148 cases received per month, and that, together with the capacity constraints, meant that more investigators and administrative support was needed. Investigators had to travel far for some cases, sometimes around 500 km from the nearest IPID office. External challenges included the jurisdiction, the transporting of witnesses and dockets to different courts, with inadequate vehicles to transport suspects, and the need to travel through violence-prone areas. 

KwaZulu Natal (KZN)
Mr Glen Angus, Acting Provincial Head, KZN, said that his staff component was 23, compared to 24 155 SAPS members, and 183 police stations that it monitored. IPID to SAPS ratio was 1: 1007, and SAPS to population ratio was 1: 414.

He gave a breakdown of the categories of crime, noting that there had been a high spike in assault, and death due to police action (most involving shooting, but including some torture). The total number of cases to March 2013 was 861. The cases currently in court numbered 107 at the moment. The “death due to police action” cases was the most prominent category, with 63 cases, and that attracted a lot of additional work. Brutality investigations averaged about 18, and of these, three of the alleged perpetrators had committed suicide. Torture matters were currently dealt with under the auspices of assault. The basic approach to brutality matters was that IPID would stick to the basics of investigation, and the four groups were divided, with three or four members in each, reporting to a deputy director of investigations. They would supervise the groups on high-profile investigations, and every attempt was made to handle matters as soon as possible, and to preserve the crime scenes as best as possible. IPID made use of forensic and ballistic analysis, and was getting good cooperation with SAPS to help with scene reconstruction. It would try to get the victims examined by doctors as soon as possible and to have pathology postmortems done as fast as possible. The Office of the Senior Public Prosecutor or DPP would be involved to get guidance, so that when the docket was forwarded, the prosecutors would already be well versed with it, and this would assist with the turnaround times, resulting in the higher number of cases in court currently.

Some of the challenges included victims failing to report matters immediately, and some crime scenes were in the remote areas of the province, resulting in late attendance by IPID. This could then compromise the evidence-collection. Sometimes, victims would not cooperate or would request withdrawal of the complaints, due to alleged "mutual agreement" with SAPS or family influence, or if parents did not want their child victims to attend an ID parade. Doctors sometimes failed to provide reports. Lack of capacity was a continuing problem.

Gauteng
Mr Robbie Rabourabu, Acting Provincial Head, IPID Gauteng, noted that Gauteng had 127 police stations, about 49 satellite and three metro stations. In the province, there were 34 949 members of SAPS, with a police to population ratio of 1: 277, whilst the police to IPID ratio was 1: 1 398. He set out the staff establishment, noting that the provincial office had 29 staff, and there were 4 in the satellite office. There were 767 cases reported,  in March 2013. The majority were to do with assault (292), but there were 202 "other" criminal matters, and over 70 deaths as a result of police action or discharge of firearms. There were 126 current cases, with 69 pending in the cases, and he presented a summary of the cases before the courts at the moment. There were 26 murder cases, 20 rape cases, six attempted murder, and six common assault. He noted that the challenges in Gauteng were similar to those in other provinces; particularly delays in submitting post-mortem reports, difficulties in getting forensic reports, budget constraints at offices that had to print reports and investigators having to spend a lot of time in court. There were also challenges with some police managers closing ranks when investigations were started, and some delayed in dealing with their members. Similar to KZN, some of the torture cases were only reported some time later. Some officers also conducted cases in other precincts and nobody was able to identify them. In big operations, forms were not completed so it was not known who was conducting the operations. There had been instances reported where SAPS members failed to wear their badges, were disguised with balaclavas, or were using cars with false registration plates to commit crimes.  There was particular concern about one instance where it was alleged that Hawks staff removed firearms from the scene, before the crime scene was secured.

Gauteng IPID was conducting monthly meetings with police management, was meeting also with the Department of Health and conducted regular workshops with all stakeholders to make them aware of what was expected in terms of the Act.

Conclusion
Mr Moses Dlamini, National Spokesperson, IPID, assured Members that the IPID was committed to fulfilling its mandate. He indicated that the number of cases successfully concluded showed that IPID was making a mark. These included the recent finalisation of a case and handing down of a sentence of 18 years, for a senior superintendent who committed rape. A case involving the shooting of a 16-year old led to the offender being sentenced to 17 years by the Johannesburg High Court. A case involving the shooting of a street vendor, after an altercation between the vendor and SAPS official about the cost of goods, resulted in a total of 13 years sentencing, on two charges. A 15-year old who was involved in a car accident with a female official had agreed to go to report the matter, but as he got into the car, the officer shot him, and she was sentenced to 15 years for murder, with part suspended.

In all these cases, Mr Dlamini agreed that IPID had faced substantial difficulties, as outlined by the provincial heads. It was often difficult to investigate the police officers because there would often be a cover-up or at least unwillingness to testify against colleagues. However, IPID was committed to finalising the matters and did manage to secure convictions. He noted the appreciation of IPID for the support of this Committee, and said IPID was ready for the challenges ahead. There had been alignment with the Act and IPID was working to ensure that it was effective in fulfilling the mandate.

Discussion
Mr J Gunda (ID, Northern Cape) noted that IPID faced massive challenges. The biggest question related to the ratios of police to population, and IPID to police. He asked why there was such as huge difference in these ratios.

Mr Gunda said that the main problem isolated in Gauteng had been police not wearing their name tags. The dishonesty in the SAPS was serious.

Mr Gunda asked if the top structures in IPID represented the demographics of South Africa.

Mr Gunda said that one of the challenges isolated by Gauteng IPID was the number of torture cases reported after such a long time, making it difficult for evidence to be collected. He was also very concerned about the report on specialised units operating in other precincts but not reporting their presence to other police stations. He sought clarity on both.

Mr Gunda asked if IPID had enough investigators and if its budgets were sufficient to deal with the challenges. He was horrified in particular with the number of rape cases, on and off duty. The whole budget was only R217 million, and he wondered if that was even sufficient to run the head office.

Mr D Bloem (COPE, Free State) appreciated the briefing. He noted that the Hawks were mentioned, as having removed firearms from the scene. He tabled a document, to the Chairperson, with a  copy handed to IPID of seven cases involving Gen Sibiya, who was regarded as "untouchable" within the Hawks. He asked for feedback within fourteen days, and said that the document tabled included a number of statements setting out assaults allegedly committed by the Hawks members against SAPS officials.

Mr J Bekker (DA, Western Cape) asked for feedback on his observations. He commended the presentation, and noted that IPID was operating within budget. However, in relation to the cases, he did not feel that IPID was successful. He highlighted the high staff turnover, low skills levels, and non-reporting by SAPS, and no feedback from SAPS, which were all of concern. The relationship between IPID and SAPS was, to his mind, "hopeless" ,and he believed that the fight against crime in the country would be lost if a whole force was needed to police the Police. More budget was clearly needed. He thought that the SAPS must be asked how it selected its forces.

Mr V Manzini (DA, Mpumalanga) was also concerned that SAPS failed to report, and asked what the IPID would do in these cases.

Mr Manzini was worried about the Tactical Response Teams (TRT) allegedly not wearing name-tags and said it was very easy for them not to be identified, and this seemed to be providing the ideal opportunity to conduct illegal operations. Similarly, the report that CID officers were wearing balaclavas, and the Hawks were removing firearms from the scene after a shooting incident, were also of huge concern. He wondered if the country was not creating monsters within the force. He was worried that SAPS officials seemed to be following their own path. He also said that TRT seemed to be trained to use force.

Mr A Matila (ANC, Gauteng) said that during the transition from the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD) to IPID, many of these concerns had been raised. He had hoped that IPID would have said, in today’s presentation, how it planned to deal with the issues differently. He was concerned that some of the targets appeared to have been "cut and pasted" from previous presentations. ICD had claimed not to have capacity, and exactly the same issue was being raised by IPID today. Nothing had been said about how that would be addressed. Similarly, low skills and lack of training had been a problem then and now.

He questioned why a major case involving a unit in KZN had not been reported here, and noted that even what was reported today did not necessarily reflect what was happening on the ground. He said that the public was well aware of police involvement in, for instance, the drug industry in Western Cape and the taxi violence.

Mr Matila thought that some of the numbers and targets were unrealistic, noting also that nothing had been indicated in terms of the municipal police. The Committee had expected to hear a different strategic direction. He questioned how the Committee could support the budget whilst the same information was being given again.

Mr Matila thought it was important for IPID to return again to the Committee to set out what it intended to do. He noted that some of the cases had been set out in previous meetings, but there was no feedback given on them today.

Mr B Nesi (ANC, Eastern Cape) said that he was concerned that within IPID, there was a suspicion that it existed merely to “create jobs” as evidenced by the quip from one member of IPID that the creation of a new programme assured someone of a job. Whilst he realised that this was supposed to be a joke, he was still concerned. IPID was clearly not succeeding with the small number of people it had, but he had serious doubts whether it would improve if it were to be enlarged. He thought, overall, that better planning was needed and agreed with Mr Matila. The core purpose was to investigate the SAPS, and he thought that there was actually not sufficient focus on this. The ideas set out in the Strategic Plan were clear and seemed fine, but they detracted from the basic reasons for IPID’s existence. He agreed that nothing new had been put forward today.

Mr Gunda noted that IPID had referred to developing a training manual for investigators, and training the investigators. He would have thought that this should have been done long ago. The strategic plan should be more immediate and up to date. The most important aspect was the development of guidelines. In a nutshell, IPID still lacked capacity, despite the importance of the institution.

Mr Gunda also noted that there were some serious cases referred to the IPID by Members, which had not been resolved. The MOU with SAPS had not been given to the Committee. He thought that a far better plan was needed, showing what had been done and how it would be working.

Mr Gunda supported Mr Matila's suggestion and said that it was difficult to support an institution that could not report properly exactly how the small budget had been spent.

Mr M Makhubela (COPE, Limpopo) asked how cases were allocated, and how the reports would be received in 24 hours.

Mr Makhubela asked if there was any classification of cases according to more serious and less serious, to allow for better or more specific targeting.

Mr Makhubela thought that the strategic plan was well drafted. However, he asked how IPID envisaged that it would succeed if it was still required to "share" resources, so that it did not always manage, for instance, to get to crime scenes rapidly.

Mr Makhubela liked the comment about team building and stabilising the organisation, but asked how this was being done. He suggested that the IPID should do this in more remote areas.

Mr Makhubela wanted to know what cost-savings measures were being implemented. It was probably being put under pressure not to investigate certain matters.

Mr Makhubela asked if IPID had permanent committees at which the same officials would sit, so that the recommendations and reports were given at one meeting, with feedback at the next, to enable IPID to track progress.

Mr Makhubela asked if there were cases around interfering with or obstructing the course of justice, and how many cases there were, for instance, of police interfering with witnesses. He wanted also to know how many key witnesses were alleged to have committed suicide.

Mr Makhubela asked about how many cases there were for missing dockets.

Mr Makhubela asked how IPID and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development cooperated to ensure that there was a safe environment.

Mr Makhubela asked why there was reference to “a minimal expansion of staff”, if IPID wanted to expand, and by how many members it intended to increase to expand the skills.

Mr Makhubela asked why there were 19 staff in Limpopo and where the four in Thoyandou were situated.

Mr Makhubela urged that IPID should not be "hooked in" to police structures, commenting on the salary levels and numbers of personnel and questioning the organogram.

Mr Makhubela commented on the presentation of KwaZulu Natal, noting that some witnesses were not willing to give evidence. He asked if there was not a procedure to bring them to book.

Mr Makhubela asked, in relation to the Gauteng presentation, how many of the cases were closed or were failing to move speedily enough, and suggested that there should be regular reviews. He wanted to know how many cases were withdrawn.

Mr Makhubela suggested that an SAP15 be issued for daily reports on activities.

Mr Makhubela referred to Mr Dlamini's statement on the cases settled. He asked who was inspecting the reports and dockets.

Mr Bloem said that Members had raised very serious issues. He suggested that perhaps the IPID should not try to answer the questions today, but rather should go back and re-work the strategic plan and comment on how Members’ concerns would be addressed. Mr Gunda had raised issues of capacity, and everyone in the Committee seemed to agree that this was a major concern. He suggested that IPID should compile a detailed written response addressing all the issues and return to the Committee to elaborate on those issues. Some departments attending Parliament, were mistakenly assuming that Parliament would immediately challenge them, but this was incorrect, because in fact Members wanted to assist the officials. They could only do this if given honest and open reports. MPs would be challenging the SAPS about lack of cooperation, as it was intending to assist.

Mr Gunda seconded Mr Bloem’s proposal.

Mr L Nzimande (ANC, KwaZulu Natal) thanked the officials for the presentation. Parliament had been involved in crafting the transformation from ICD to IPID, which had been in operation now for only twelve months. The five-year strategic plan had been presented, setting out a certain direction. The amounts to fund that path had been set out. However, he heard his colleagues' comments and concerns about the budget and its growth. There were indicators of the problems ahead, and he believed that this had been amply set out. The target of investigating a percentage of investigating systemic corruption must be linked to the other entities' work in the Cluster. At least IPID was working to that extended mandate.

Mr Nzimande said that to his mind, one of the major problems was that all the top structure in IPID was still in acting positions.

Mr Nzimande was also not entirely happy with the indicators on the various sectors, which he thought was too limited. Some targets simply seemed to have been raised by one or two percentage points per year, without substantial thought as to what would be done that would actually address the needs.

Mr Nzimande asked if the request that IPID should return to the Committee implied that IPID should review the five-year strategic plan, and the funding made available. He would have preferred that the issue of capacity and resources must be fully investigated, but they would clearly remain for the moment. He thought that some other aspects - such as investigative equipment such as cameras, being ready to go on to crime scenes, and the issues of integrity, should have been addressed. He heard about the sharing of offices and forensic laboratories, and asked whether police experts were used, and if they were subjected to any oath of honesty. He also enquired about other budget issues.

Mr Nzimande also wanted to hear what role the IPID would be playing in the JCPS Cluster. He asked if the stakeholder activities would be national or provincial and if there were arrangements at both levels, or whether there would be concentration on the national framework. He thought that the strategic plan, as it stood, and the APP needed to be monitored, given the newness of the Act.

Mr Nzimande was not sure that this Committee had been put in possession of all the necessary information when the costing of the Act was first discussed. He suggested that the Committee should also look at this aspect.

Mr M Mokgobi (ANC, Limpopo) asked a largely inaudible question (the microphones were not working) about consolidating resources and issues into the plan. There should also be isolation of issues where the police were not correctly monitoring. Another question was raised on the degree of independence. People did not always know where they should be referring matters, within the IPID and he thought there was a need for more dedicated units. This was linked to budgetary issues.

The Chairperson said that Members seemed to agree that there was progress and some of the challenges setout seemed to be a "cry for help". He agreed that the Committee needed to meet with SAPS management, to convey some of the challenges and try to reach a common understanding. This meeting had helped members to isolate what the problems were, and to formulate a way to assist, to ensure that IPID could perform as requested. The issues of funding would have to be raised with National Treasury to ensure that IPID could do its work.

The Chairperson said that all Members also seemed to be in agreement that it would be better for the IPID team not to attempt to respond to all the questions individually. IPID management should, instead, prepare a composite response, after some introspection, and try to incorporate that some of the Committee’s suggestions into the plans.

The Chairperson said that a particular issue that would also need to be included was how IPID intended to retain staff.

The Chairperson said that if there were other issues that Members thought of in the meantime, they would be conveyed to the IPID team, and in due course another meeting would be arranged. He assured IPID of the Committee’s appreciation for the work it did, and its support.

The meeting was adjourned.