Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill [B16-2010] Adoption

Meeting report

Chairperson’s opening remarks
The Chairperson stated that it was encouraging that Members were able to debate the Independent  Police Investigative Division (IPID) Bill. She thanked the Members and the State law advisors for supporting that Bill. She went on to thank the South African Police Services (SAPS) for not joining the strike. Since civil servants would be going back to work, this would enable the SAPS to focus on its core functions of dealing with criminals. Criminals who had committed crimes during the strike period by attacking others or damaging houses should be arrested, and that communities should be assisting SAPS so that the criminals were brought to book.

The Chairperson noted that Members had a meeting with the Supply Chain Management Unit of the SAPS, and thanked Ms van Wyk, Chairperson of the sub-committee and other members for preparing for that meeting, which had focused on the building of police stations and not the purchasing of bullet proof vests. She also stated that the Committee could not get more information with regard to projects in the Eastern Cape. The previous meeting reflected on the lack of management by senior personnel, and noted that information and important documents submitted to Parliament were unreliable. If the Department did not have to appear before this Committee, there would not be any proper management.

The Chairperson also noted that on Thursday 2 September the Police Secretariat had presented its implementation plan for the new Civilian Secretariat for Police Service and that certain tasks remained to be done.

Civilian Secretariat for Police Bill (the Bill): Amended version dated 7 September 2010
Mr Theo Hercules, Principal State Law Advisor, Office of the Chief State Law Advisor, stated that he would take Committee Members through the document, which had combined all the amendments now requested by the Committee.

Chapter 1
He stated that the heading of Chapter 1 had been amended to read ‘Interpretation, Application and Objects of the Act’. He stated that this was to make way for a new clause that outlined the objects of the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service (the Secretariat) later in the Bill.
 
Clause 1
Mr Hercules stated that the definition of ‘Committee’ had been cross referenced with Clause 27(1). He also stressed that the same cross referencing had been done for the definitions of ‘forum’, ‘head of a provincial department’ and ‘Secretary’.

Clauses 2 and 3
Mr Hercules stated that there had been no amendments made to Clauses 2 and 3.

Clause 4
Mr Hercules pointed out that there had been a cross reference inserted in subclause (5).

Clause 5
Mr Hercules stated that no amendments were made to this Clause.

Clause 6
Mr Hercules pointed out that Clause 6(1)(j) had been reworded. He noted that subclause (2)(b)(iv) had also been reworded, to include the words ‘recommend steps’. He also pointed out that subclauses 2(b)(iv) and (2)(c)(vii) had been reworded.

Clause 7
Mr Hercules said that no changes had been made to this Clause.

Clause 8
Mr Hercules stated that Clauses 8(1)(b) and 8(1)(c) had been cross referenced to Clause 6.

Clause 9
Mr Hercules highlighted that there had been no amendments to Clause 9.

Clause 10
Mr Hercules stated that the only amendment to this Clause related to a cross reference in subclause (1)(a).

Clauses 11 to 18
Mr Hercules noted that there had been no amendment to these clauses..

Clause 19
Mr Hercules stressed that there had been cross references inserted into subclauses (1)(a) and (1)(c). He also pointed out that subclause (1)(d) had been reworded to reflect the monitoring function.

Clause 20
Mr Hercules highlighted that no changes had been effected in Clause 20.

Clause 21
Mr Hercules stated that the word ‘after’ had been inserted in subclause (1).

Clause 22
Mr Hercules noted that there had been a cross reference inserted into Clause 22.

Clause 23
Mr Hercules stated that Clause 23(1)(a) had been reworded to include the words ‘Civilian Secretariat’.

Clause 24
Mr Hercules pointed out that there had been no amendments to the Clause.

Clause 25
Mr Hercules noted that there had been a cross reference inserted, to Clause 24.

Clause 26
Mr Hercules pointed out that Clause 26(1) had been reworded. He also stated that a new subclause (5) had been inserted. A new word had been inserted in subclause (6).

The Chairperson highlighted that during the previous meeting, Members had agreed that, in regard to  subclause (4), the MEC should be informed.

Mr Hercules responded that the issue had now been addressed under subclause (5).

Clauses 27 to 33
Mr Hercules stated that there were no amendments effected to these clauses.

Clause 34
Mr Hercules stated that there had been cross references inserted in subclauses (1), (2), and (4)(a). He also pointed out that Clauses 34(4), 34(5) and 34(6) had been reworded, and the words ‘Civilian Secretariat’ had been inserted.

Clause 36
Mr Hercules highlighted that the word ‘determined’ had been inserted in subclause (1).

The Chairperson thanked the State Law Advisors, who had attended correctly to the instructions given to them by the Committee.

Clause by clause deliberations
The Chairperson asked that the Committee Members should attend to adopting each clause of the Bill.

Long Title
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

Preamble
The Clause was adopted as it was.

Table of Contents
Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) stated that the last word of the heading of Part 6 should be ‘Service’ with a capital ‘S’.

Clause 1
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

Clause 2
No amendments had been suggested, and the clause was adopted as it stood.

Clause 3
This new Clause was adopted.

Clause 4
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

Clause 5
The Clause was adopted.

Clause 6
Mr G Schneemann (ANC) suggested that the subclause (1)(j) must be reworded to say “assess and monitor the South African Police Services”.

Mr M George (COPE) did not agree with the rewording of this subclause and proposed formally that the Committee should adopt the clause as stated in the document.

The Clause was adopted with the amendments already made

Clauses 7 to 13
These clauses were adopted, as amended.

Clauses 14 and 15
These Clauses were adopted as they stood.

Clauses 16 to 21
These Clauses were adopted with amendments.

Clause 22
The Clause was adopted as it stood.

Clause 23
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

Clause 24
The Clause was adopted as it stood.

Clauses 25 and 26
These Clauses were adopted with amendments.

Clauses 27 and 28
These Clauses were adopted as they stood.

Clause 29
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

Clause 30
The Clause was adopted as it was.

Clause 31
The Chairperson highlighted the fact that the phrase ‘co-operation with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate’ had been repeated and one of the phrases should thus be deleted.

Mr Hercules responded that one phrase appeared as the heading of the Clause, and the other was the subheading.

The Clause was adopted as it stood.

Clauses 32 to 34
These Clauses were adopted with amendments.

Clause 35
The Clause was adopted as it stood.

Clause 36
The Clause was adopted with amendments.

The Chairperson invited comments on the Bill from Committee Members.

Mr George stated that his party (COPE) supported the Bill. He stressed that even though the Bill had some shortcomings, such as the issue of Provincial Secretariats, these would be ironed out in the long run. He stated that the Committee would have to rely on the Members of Executive Councils (MECs) for their support.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) stated that his party supported the Bill.

Mr Schneemann stated that the ANC would fully support the adoption of the Bill. This Bill was a step in the right direction of ensuring that the Secretariat would not fall under the SAPS, which would make the public more confident in it. He was looking forward to seeing a fully functional Secretariat.

The majority of Members thus voted for the adoption of the A version of the Bill.

The Chairperson thanked Members, the Secretariat and the State Law Advisors for their assistance in the processing of this Bill, which was a milestone in the history of South Africa.

Ms Jenni Irish-Qhobosheane, Secretary of Police, expressed thanks to the Minister of Police for making it possible to introduce this Bill. She also thanked the State Law Advisors and Members of the Committee for their commitment towards it.

Mr George proposed a vote of thanks to the Chairperson for the thorough way in which she conducted the meetings.

Rev Meshoe agreed with Mr George that the Chairperson had done an excellent job.

Other business
Adoption of Minutes
The Chairperson stated that the Committee was supposed to adopt minutes of the previous meetings, but the NCOP was not in Parliament.

Release of crime statistics
The Chairperson pointed out that the Minister would be releasing crime statistics in Pretoria on Thursday 9 September. She urged Members to attend.

Report on KwaZulu Natal
The Chairperson urged Members to read the Kwazulu-Natal (KZN) report and make the necessary corrections.

Committee Report on Supply Chain Management Unit
The Chairperson called for suggestions from Members as to how the Committee Report would be processed the forthcoming Friday.

Ms A Van Wyk (ANC) suggested that the Committee should draft a formal report and submit it to Parliament for adoption rather than purely for notification.

Mr George would be pleased if Members discussed the matter, and then made recommendations, especially in light of the recent developments.

The Chairperson stated that she was aware that there were investigations ongoing, but said that these were a separate issue.

Ms Van Wyk pointed out that the developments were ongoing. She stated that the Supply Chain Management was not reporting on actual costs, but on estimated costs. She also raised the issue of the 32 builders in SAPS and said it was necessary to find out how they were appointed.

Mr George agreed. He stated that he was worried about the numbers of policemen, and felt that the Committee needed to discuss quite a few issues.

The Chairperson stated that the analysis on the building of police stations went as far back as 1994.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that she had done an unannounced visit to a police station. According to the records, this police station was over-staffed by 10 people, but in reality it was under-staffed. Some people who had long since gone or died were still on the books. This made it difficult for vacant posts to be filled. She asked who would be accountable for that maladministration.

Ms Van Wyk responded that Ms Kohler-Barnard was raising personnel issues. She suggested that the Committee should not look at individual police stations individually, but as a whole.

The Chairperson stated that the issue would form part of the KwaZulu Natal report.

The meeting was adjourned.