Fourth Draft of Bill: deliberations
Powers and Privileges of Parliament
15 February 2002
Meeting Summary
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Meeting report
AD HOC COMMITTEE ON POWERS
AND PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT
15 February 2002
FOURTH DRAFT OF BILL: DELIBERATIONS
RELEVANT DOCUMENTS:
Fourth Draft of Powers
and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Bill
Matters Flagged for Consideration (See Appendix)
Chairperson: Mr P Mokaba
SUMMARY
The Committee considered issues it flagged and tasked the Law Advisors to
do research on these and present a draft with the requisite formulations for
its consideration.
MINUTES
The Parliamentary Law Advisors Mr Eshaam Palmer and Advocate Zuraya
Adhikarie assisted the Committee with the consideration of the Bill.
The Chairperson pointed out that before the Committee was a paper listing all
matters that were raised and flagged for consideration to see if they can be
included and how that can be done. The paper also refers to issues that were
sent for redrafting by the Law Advisors. The Committee would at some stage need
to confer with the Select Committee before finalising the matter. The researchers would have to look at how
the provinces tackled the issues dealt with in the Bill in their legislation
and what differences exist in their respective legislation.
Matters Flagged for Consideration (Refer to Appendix)
1. Constituency Office - privilege protection for members as if at
Parliament?
The Chairperson said the Committee decided that constituency offices were
party structures. He asked from the Law
Advisors what the current position in the Rules is regarding these.
Mr Palmer said according to rules constituency offices are members' offices.
Ms Rajbally (MP) said in the Rules Committee there was a suggestion that these
be made Parliamentary offices.
2.CHAPTER 2: PRECINCTS OF
LEGISLATURES
Clause 3 - service of process and arrest of persons within precincts of
Legislature and CHAPTER 4: IMMUNITIES, INDEPENDENCE AND PROTECTION OF
MEMBERS AND LEGISLATURES
Clause 12 - attendance of members before court
The Chairperson said the decision of the Speaker would be the final word on the
matter. The view was that the nature of
the offence or matter a member faces in the courts should not be the
consideration but that the Speaker should consider what impact a members
attendance would have on Parliament's business.
3.CHAPTER 3: FREEDOM OR SPEECH AND PRECEEDINGS
 Clause 6 -freedom of speech and
proceedings in Legislature
Is freedom of Speech to be extended to
caucus meetings?
The Chairperson said caucuses remain the domain and responsibility of
political parties.
Mr Hendrikse asked if one could be charged for what they say in a caucus.
Mr Palmer said the general law in the absence of privilege would apply.
Mr Eglin (DP) added that in the history of Parliament since far back as the
1910 Union he knows of no instance where one has been taken to court on what
they say in a caucus. He said the
nature of discussions in caucus meetings is very informal.
4.CHAPTER 4: IMMUNITIES, INDEPENDENCE AND PROTECTION OF MEMBERS AND
LEGISLATURE
Clause 8 -Â interference with
Legislature or members
Clause 9 -persons creating disturbance
 - definition of “disturbance� and
“interference�
The Chairperson said the Law Advisors still have to redraft these points.
5. The Chairperson said the Committee still needs to come back and discuss who
is responsible for determining behaviour of Members.
6.Clause 10(2) - improper influence of members
The Chairperson said the Law Advisors still need to reconsider the wording
of the subclause.
7. Clause 11 - matters in which members may have direct financial
interest
The Chairperson said there was understanding that the Ethics Code was adequate
in the sense that if members have declared their interest there should be no
additional responsibility.
8. Clause 12 - attendance of members before court
Mr Hendrikse (ANC) suggested that the words “important legislative
business� in clause 12(2) be deleted because they suggest that some business of
the Legislature is not important, and that reference should only be to the
Speaker's discretion.
Mr Masutha (ANC) said the view in formulating the clause was to prevent a
situation where members would circumvent appearing in courts by saying that
they were involved in Parliamentary business since they are allowed to sit in
any Committee of Parliament. He
suggested that clause 12(3) be deleted instead.
Ms Adhikarie suggested that the matter be flagged as it hinges on the
definition of “legislative business� which the Law Advisors still have to come
back to the Committee with.
9Â Clause 13 - giving evidence of
proceedings
The Chairperson said this matter still needs consideration.
10 CHAPTER 5: DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST MEMBERS FOR CONTEMPT OF
LEGISLATION
Clause 15 - disciplinary action against members for contempt of legislature
-disciplinary committee
Mr Eglin (DP) said the committee provided for in Rule 191 is not a disciplinary
committee but an impartial body appointed for the whole life of Parliament and
carries out an investigation of a matter and presents a report to Parliament.
The actual disciplining is left to the House.
Mr Masutha said the appeal issue would fall away since the House is the highest
decision making body of Parliament and also because decisions of Parliament
cannot be taken on appeal on merits elsewhere.Â
However, the aggrieved member would still be able to take the matter on
review to courts.
Mr Hendrikse felt that a recommended sanction should also be included in the
report of the committee to the House.
Mr Eglin said it would be wrong to dictate what the sanction should be to
Parliament.
Mr Masutha said he feels that the committee should also make recommendations
regarding the sanction based on their first hand experience with evidence
because not doing so could open up other processes such as members requesting
to make representations for mitigation of sentence before the House which would
be an undesirable process.
Mr Eglin said the House is not a court of law and that an enquiry and
recommendation that the member be found guilty or not is all that the committee
should be able to do. The sanction
should be left for the decision of the House.
The Chairperson said the Law Advisors should look at the issue to make sure
that what is decided on it is not inconsistent with the Constitution. They would also have to look at whether the
known cases pointed out to the Committee (such as De Lille and Maduna) have
been covered.
11. Clause 15(4)(c) - suspension for 30 days
The Chairperson said there was a view that suspension should not be viewed as a
glorified holiday by a member's receiving a salary for doing nothing.
Mr Masutha felt that reference to salary of members may be open to
constitutional challenges and that instead the reference be made to a fine.
It was agreed that a fine not exceeding R15 000 be imposed in an instance where
a member is suspended in the circumstances mentioned in the subsection.
The Chairperson said the Law Advisors should look at the issues discussed and
do research and the necessary formulations of the clauses discussed and present
a draft to the Committee to consider.
The meeting was adjourned.
Appendix
AD HOC COMMITTEE ON POWERS AND PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT
Matters flagged for consideration:
1.Constituency Office-privilege
protection for members as if at
Parliament?
2.Clause 3. and 12.: Law advisers to reconsider wording and report back
to Committee. Consider reasons for appearing in court: as witness; for
minor offence such as traffic violation; and serious crime such as rape
and murder. Speaker to decide which is more important - Parliament
work or court proceedings? Does such a decision put too great a
burden on the Speaker? Etc.
3.Clause 6.: Freedom of Speech to be extended to caucus meetings?
4.Clauses 8. and 9.: Definition of "disturbance" and "interference":
Law
advisers to consider more precise wording for the sake of more clarity.
5.Rules to be amended - if necessary - to provide for behavior of MPs
creating a disturbance or interference.
6.Clause 10.(2): Reconsider
7.Clause II: Member a shareholder in a new company - does this mean
he may not participate in debates on such companies? Examples:
Eskom and Iskor, both soon to become private companies, in which
MPs may have shares, and also, particular knowledge and
understanding of such institutions.
8.Clause 12: Parties to discuss.
9.Clause 13: Delete? Quorum needed for such decision.
10.Clause 15.: Disciplinary Committee - composition - where to provide
for this - in legislation, or in Rules?
11.Clause 15.(4) (c): Suspension for 30 days: Member not entitled to
salary. Consider effect on family, including pension, bond, medical aid
and other essential deductions.
12.Powers and functions of disciplinary committee- to make final
decision? Recommendation to House? What about appeal mechanism?
Is House to handle appeals?
13.Clause 15. (4): Suspension not extended holiday. (Cf De Lille case - not
properly dealt with in Rules 0 good to cover in law for all to know?)
Consider provision in law and/or Rules.
14. [Clauses 16 - 32 still to be considered]
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