Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 26 Mar 2024


No summary available.



Watch video here: Plenary 


The House met at 10:00.


The Acting Speaker, Mr S L Tsenoli took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.




The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Order hon members, I wish to announce that I have received a letter from the Speaker which reads as follows:


As you may have read in the media, and in terms of recent official communications to me, I have now been made aware that the Investigative Directorate of the National Prosecuting Authority is investigating a case of corruption against myself.

I still do not have full information as to the nature of the investigation and / or allegations against me as the NPA is yet to provide a full disclosure to me or my appointed legal representatives.

Given my appointment as a leader of a key institution of the state, occupying the high office of the Speaker of the National Assembly of our Parliament, I am aware of the implications that such an investigation may have on me, my work and the office I occupy.


It is for this reason, after serious consideration, that I felt it necessary that I should take special leave of absence to protect the integrity and functioning of the institution of Parliament. This is despite my already pronounced innocence on the allegations being made public against me.


I believe that, depending on the provision of the Rules of the National Assembly, the matter should be brought to the attention of members, at the next sitting of the House. Thanking you in this regard.

This is the letter we received from the Speaker and thought should start by drawing your attention to you as she requested. Order hon members.






Hon Acting Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move: That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, for the purpose of conducting the Second Reading today on the South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill. I thank you Acting Speaker.


Question put.


Motion agreed to.



There was no debate.



Acting Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move: That the Report be adopted.


Question put.


Motion agreed to.




The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Hon members I now would like to ask the following members to stand: Hon Jerome Joseph Maake, hon Tlhologelo Malatji, hon Zwelivelile Mandlesizwe Mandela, hon Phumeza Theodora Mpushe, hon Xolani Nkululeko Msimango, hon Xola Nqola, hon Nokuzola Gladys Tolashe, hon Mohatla Alfred Tseki, hon Judith Tshabalala, hon Audrey Sibongile Zuma. Order hon members.


Hon members, the House has now adopted the committee report concerning members who have contravened the Code of Ethical

Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interests. The report recommends that together with fines, the members be reprimanded in the House. A reprimand in the House is aimed at ensuring that discipline is meted out fairly, transparently, consistently. I will now issue reprimand and I have already done so; I requested the members to stand.

Before you began to perform your functions as members of Parliament, you pledged obedience to the Constitution. You also pledged to obey, respect and uphold all other law and perform your functions to the best of your ability. These undertakings foster both trust between individual parliamentarians and the public, but also the status of Parliament as a preeminent institution of the state.


The Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interests provides a set of values for members. Among other requirements, the code obligates members to annually declare their financial interests in a public register. This allows the public to confirm that no member may have been exposed to a conflict of interest.


You, hon members, have failed to disclose your financial interests for 2023 in due time. It is apparent from the

committee report that you were provided fair opportunity to present your records and, not having done so, to adequately explain your failure. Your actions had the potential to erode the public trust in Parliament.


Hon members, this is unacceptable, objectionable and deserving of serious consequences. In this regard, I have taken note of the precedent set by the committee as to the severity of the penalties. I also note as indicated above that financial penalties have been imposed. These penalties will be implemented without delay.



I trust that this reprimand sends a message to all members to live up to their obligations and ensure that they comply with the code. I have now concluded the reprimand and members may resume their seats. Thank you. Yes, hon member.



Dr A LOTRIET: Hon Acting Speaker, may I inquire that you have mentioned a number of names of members who were not present here? May we be informed whether your office has received specific apologies for those members because it does have severe consequences. Thank you.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): I’m informed they were online as we were going through the program. Yes.


Dr A LOTRIET: Acting Speaker, the practice in this Parliament is that if you are online, you have to show your video. Thank you.



Ms S G N MBATHA: But they did show their videos.



Mr Z M D Mandela: Our videos were on. We are on the platform and present. Thank you... [Interjection.]


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): No, hon members, you shouldn’t be talking before I invite you. Hon members, we are assured that they were on the video online. And this should have actually made it very clear that is the case. Thank you very much, hon members.



An HON MEMBER: Thank you, hon Acting Speaker.




The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Yes, hon member.



Mr A H M PAPO: Acting Speaker, when the report was presented, it was said that the declarations are not being made on the

report. But what was surprising is that when we were reading the reprimand, some members in the House were making declarations from floor. And ethics reports are supposed not be commented on or discussed, because you can set the wrong precedent that members then make declarations from the floor. It’s not going to actually augur well, for reports of the ethics committee, which are not discussed.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Thank you hon member. Hon members I am aware of that ... hon member, wait a minute, please don’t interrupt as I’m speaking. Just take your seat.

Hon members, it is appropriate that we conduct ourselves, as is expected, on these matters. I hear those remarks from the floor. They were out of order, but I chose the better method of talking to the issues in front of us, conveying this message that we take this thing seriously.



I hope members will learn from this and not repeat this conduct. I hope none of this thing will ever happen again. Thank you. Convey our conviction that it is appropriate that we conduct our affairs with dignity. Thank you, hon members. The Secretary will read the Second Order.



There was no debate.






Hon Acting Speaker I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party: That the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.




Report accordingly adopted.








(Second Reading debate)




Speaker, chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Mineral and Energy hon Sahlulele Luzipo and hon members present here, the ANC-led government passed the National Nuclear Regulator Act of 1999, 25 years ago. The Act seeks to provide for a national regulatory framework for the protection of person, property

and the environment against nuclear damage and to establish the national nuclear to regulate nuclear activities. The regulatory reform in the nuclear space is progressive and strategically positioning South Africa and the global space to remain a trusted member of the world-renowned international atomic energy agency, which is commonly known as the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, and fully participates in its conversions, hence our nation has been able to safely operate the Safari-1 research reactor for more than 58 years and the Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant for 40 years with a plan to extend its lifespan by a further 20 years.


Notwithstanding this success story, the following developments in the nuclear safety international best practices coupled by various domestic challenges have required changes to be introduced in the Act. The first one is the emergence of the revived internationally regulated best practices from IAEA that require alignment in the National Nuclear Regulator Act. The regulator not being empowered to regulate the provision of the financial security for safe rehabilitation and nuclear decommissioning activities, the lack of alternative penalty provision apart from criminal prosecution to encourage better compliance with the National Nuclear Regulator Act.

To ensure that the regulator performs its functions effectively and efficiently and to guarantee the South Africa’s compliance with international obligations, the Sixth administration sought to amend the Act by introducing the the National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill which is commonly known as the National Nuclear Regulator, NNR, Bill. The Department of Mineral Resources and Energy effected the required amendments to the National Nuclear Regulator Act to align it with current international regulatory best practices and strengthen the nuclear safety regulatory framework to expand the scope of the regulator’s powers to perform additional regulatory functions, to introduce provision for financial provisions for costs associated with safe rehabilitation and land decommissioning of nuclear facilities

,to introduce provisions for administrative fines to be issued for noncompliance with the Act.


Deputy Speaker, we are pleased that in effecting these amendments we kept to the Batho Pele principles hence the Bill went through rigorous consultation with the people of South Africa through various processes including periods for public comments initiated by the department as well as the oral public hearings that were rolled over by Parliament through the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources and Energy. We

are of a firm view that the strengthening of the regulatory framework for nuclear safety will greatly contribute towards ensuring the protection of persons, property and the environment against harmful effects of radiation and nuclear damage. It is in this context that we are particular encouraged by the support for the amendments for the National Nuclear Regulator Bill by the citizens of this country.


House Chairperson, we table the National Nuclear Regulator Bill for consideration and adoption by this august House. I thank you.



Mr S LUZIPO: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the Bill was tabled in Parliament by the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy and referred to the committee on 25 August 2023, as a section 75 Bill. The Bill was published for public comments in the local newspapers during the September period with a deadline date of 13 October 2023. A total number of written submissions were received from various stakeholders and individuals, and as such they were considered and incorporated in the Bill on 08 March 2022.



The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996, recognises everyone’s right to an environment that is not

harmful to the health or wellbeing and to have the environment protected for the benefit of the present and future generations through reasonable legislative and other measures. The fundamental objective of the National Nuclear Regulator Bill is to provide protection of persons, property and the environment against nuclear damage through the establishment of safety standards and regulatory practices.


This amendment Bill ensures that the National Nuclear Regulator Act is equipped with the necessary powers and functions for South Africa to align itself with the recently revised international best practices for nuclear activities and safety standards in addition to ensuring our alignment with the international regulation practices of standards, which is the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, to which we are the founding member as a country and as a signatory in most of its conventions.



One of the critical aspects that require alignment with IAEA is to underscore the role of the regulator as one that focus on nuclear security only though the lines of safety objectives and regulatory standards. As a result, the National Nuclear Regulator Bill explicitly and importantly excludes the regulator from any nuclear security matters that are covered

in the 1999 and the Nuclear Energy Act. However, to maintain a balanced approach the Bill empowers the regulator to make recommendations to the Minister on declarations of nuclear activities. The Bill recognises that clear communication of scientific and the technical terminologies is essential. To this end, this Bill includes the definition and an explanation of the terminologies that have been approved in the IAEA’s safety glossary up to 2022 to promote consistency of terminology and usage in the regulatory framework for nuclear safety and the work of the National Nuclear Regulator Act.



Equally relevant, are the provisions that enable the regulator to prohibit certain nuclear activities, the expanded inspectorate powers that empower the regulator the right to enter premises search and provide inspection of nuclear facilities, and crucially the concomitant provision which enable the regulator to discontinue actions if not compliant or there is a safety risk, to empower the direct rehabilitation, to remove radioactive material and the power to prohibit workers from engaging in an action that is classified as unsafe.



This is critical to operational nuclear power stations such as Koeberg in preparation for the additional nuclear energy

generation. As we are aware the current integrated resource plan, IRP, 2019, provides for the extension of the Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant design life by another 20 years. Further, the Decision 8 of the IRP 2019, states that the country must commence preparations for the nuclear Bill programme of 2 500 megawatts at a pace and scale that the country can afford because it is a no regret option in the long-term. The procurement process has commenced. This Bill therefore ensures that these various processes will meet the threshold for the international best practices for nuclear safety and nuclear security.


The committee unanimously agreed to the provisions that facilitate better public participation to key aspects for nuclear sites and licensing and preconstruction activities. This must be viewed as an important step towards transparency and accountability that is necessary in the nuclear sector.

Therefore, the National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill not only signals our government’s continued support of development focused multilateral frameworks and the effective response to our obligations with respect to the international law, but equally, the National Nuclear Regulator Bill provides a timely legal framework within the South Arican context of strategic

and urgent implementation of the various pathways for energy generation.


I therefore recommend to this House that it approves and adopts the recommendations of the committee as the committee support the Bill. Thank you very much.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Acting Speaker, there can be no doubt that the nuclear age heralds a bright future both from a technology and energy perspective. It is one that promises boundless energy and great leaps in science and medicine but also a horrible escalation in warfare, devastation and environmental damage.

From its earliest beginnings when Marie Curie was conducting experiments around the radioactivity of various elements and ultimately dying from radiation poisoning, the risks associated with nuclear technology have been self-evident.


Acting Speaker, while nuclear energy has the potential to revolutionise our world, it also carries inherent perils that demand our attention and vigilance. In a tale spanning nearly

100 years since the discovery of nuclear fission in the 1930s, we have seen the advent of X-rays and nuclear medicine, we have seen nuclear power plants and ships and submarines that are powered by nuclear reactors. At the same time, we have

witnessed the devastation unleashed by nuclear weapons on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the environmental impact of the failures at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima.


South Africa has its own unique nuclear history. In the 1950s, South Africa began developing its nuclear capabilities for peaceful purposes. However, during the apartheid era there were ... [Inaudible.] ... efforts to develop nuclear weapons culminating in the successful detonation of a nuclear device in 1979. The fall of the apartheid regime in the late 1980s and early 1990s led to the dismantling of the nuclear weapon programme, the first time a country has voluntarily stepped back from the nuclear weapons proliferation race.



In the 1970s South Africa built Koeberg, a 1 860 megawatts nuclear power plant that has been operating more or less continuously since 1984. Although near the end of its operational life and licence which is due to expire in July this year, Koeberg is currently undergoing a life extension that will hopefully see a further 20 years of electricity generation. At Phelindaba, the home of the Nuclear Energy Corporation of South Africa and the place where much of South Africa’s nuclear weapons research was conducted, the Safari-1

research reactor has been operating at the highest levels of efficiency since 1965.


In addition to research the reactor is also used to produce nuclear isotopes or medicine, making South Africa one of the top producers of this product globally. Today, South Africa’s nuclear sector is primarily focused on nuclear power generation, research and nuclear medicine. However, despite the peaceful intentions the sector faces numerous challenges which would necessitate strict regulation. This is where the National Nuclear Regulator comes into play. The regulatory bodies such as the National Nuclear Regulator, NNR, established safety standards for nuclear installations. These standards cover everything from sighting and design to operation and decommissioning.



By adhering to these standards, we can minimise the chances of accidents and protect our environment. Acceptable risk is the cornerstone of regulatory control. The NNR evaluates risks associated with specific facilities and activities.

Authorisations are granted based on rigorous safety assessments ensuring that only responsible operators handle nuclear technology. At the same time, our legislative and regulatory framework places the prime responsibility for

safety on authorisation holders. They are liable for any nuclear damage caused by their facilities or actions.


This accountability encourages diligence and adherence to safety protocols. The NNR needs to ensure that authorisation holders comply and have the necessary resources to mitigate any risks that may occur. The NNR also overseas emergency planning and preparedness with regard to nuclear facilities and materials. Timely response to accidents and during accidents can mitigate the impact. Lessons from past instance inform our readiness for any unforeseen events. The National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill amends the existing legislation to bring it in line with international definitions norms and standards.



In addition, it takes the first baby steps to safeguard the independence of the regulator. Although, in our opinion, it does not go far enough. Specifically, following inputs from the DA, the Bill now places a responsibility for shortlisting the candidates for appointment to the NNR board in the hands of the portfolio committee rather than in the hands of the Minister. This aligns with other regulatory bodies overseen by Parliament. Nonetheless, we remain concerned that the Minister

still retains the overall power to appoint and disappoint, contrary to international best practice.


In fact, as far back as 2011 the International Atomic Energy Agency and the integrated nuclear infrastructure review identified this as a significant risk and have repeated it regularly since then; I quote:



The Minister of Energy and the National Nuclear Regulator are identified as having regulatory functions over nuclear activities. Considering that the Minister of Energy is also in charge of the promotion of nuclear energy and given that the Minister appoints the NNR board and the chief executive, CEO, approves NNR’s budget and promulgates regulations, the Integrated Nuclear Infrastructure Review, INIR, team is of the view that the separation between the regulatory functions and the promotional activities is not adequate, thus calling into question the effective independence of the NNR.



As we speak, the DA is pursuing legal action to review the request for proposal, RFP, for 2500 megawatts of nuclear power announced by the Minister of Electricity late last year. We do this not because we question the role of nuclear power in

South Africa’s long term energy mix but rather because we want to ensure that due process is followed and that our nuclear sector is legally compliant with all appropriate legislation and regulations. At the same time, we need to acknowledge that the procurement of new nuclear power now, we will not alleviate load shedding in the short to medium-term. It is not the silver bullet that will end the rolling blackouts that have characterised the ANC’s government nor is it something the ANC have budgeted for in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. The NNR will have a significant role to play in any future nuclear build and must be capacitated to fulfill that without fear or favour. So, where does that leave us?



The amendments to the National Nuclear Regulatory Act are an important first step to ensuring a transparent and accountable regulatory body that has the necessary powers to effectively oversee South Africa’s nuclear sector. While the DA remains concerned that it falls short of a truly independent regulator we view this Bill as a vital update to the existing legislation. The DA supports the Bill.



Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Acting Speaker, the EFF supports the National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill. The National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill seeks to ensure that South

Africa align herself with the International Nuclear Safety Standards. To do this, we must change the powers and functions of the National Nuclear Regulator. Our position as the EFF is clear, we maintain that to stabilise energy supply we must maximally pursue a mix of energy sources including the expansion of our nuclear capacity beyond Koeberg Nuclear Power Station, which remains the sole nuclear facility in Africa.


Nuclear must be a large part of our low carbon and efficient base load source of energy. We must pursue this programme with the necessary urgency, discipline and dedicated resources. The reality is that nuclear energy, as things stand, is one source of energy that can play a decisive role to ensure that our base load power generation is stable without being affected by external weather since the rain in South Africa affects the quality of coal, something that does not happen anywhere else in the world. It is nuclear that can ensure that we produce large amounts of electricity whilst reducing our carbon emissions.



We are unapologetic that South Africa should continue to maximally use coal and explore scientific technologies such as carbon capture and offsetting mechanisms to ensure that we reduce emissions. Nuclear power will contribute as it is a low

carbon source of electricity. The reality is that even on cost nuclear is far much cheaper. It is a fact that a nuclear generated kilowatt is far much less than what is being stolen from Eskom through power purchasing agreements with independent renewable power producers. It costs 40 cents a unit, a far much significantly lower price than the R6 a unit for electricity generated from renewable power producers.


On top of this robbery these are the very same independent power producers whose projects have a state loan guaranteed of more than R187 billion. South Africans, imagine that. This is the value of private capital net initiatives to try and make a profit from electricity generation. The state has guaranteed that should they fail to pay back their loans, we will all be collectively responsible for their mess. That is enslavement of our generations to come. Lastly, nuclear will give us the necessary energy security and independence which is central to economic stability and security. We have witnessed in the past

15 years the damage caused by the unreliable supply of electricity on the economy because of electricity blackouts and load shedding.



Hon members, we should immediately pursue global co-operation with nations that have experienced a capacity to build large

scale nuclear power plants. Countries such as Russia have done this many times. They have the necessary experience and the correct political approach that can allow for a build programme that is coherent, practical and will deliver a nuclear power plant without unnecessary delays including considering purchasing power agreements. Lastly, acting Speaker, nuclear energy will be central to the reindustrialisation of South Africa and the African Continent. The EFF supports the Nuclear Regulatory Authority Amendment Bill. Thank you, acting Speaker.



Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon House Chair, as a party that has consistently been highlighting the government’s failure to adequately manage Eskom, subsequently providing South Africa with more loadshedding than electricity, it would be disingenuous of us not to welcome any attempt at increasing Eskom’s electricity generation capacity.



As we have stated in this House last week, we welcome the plans to incorporate nuclear power generation as it will most certainly lessen the load and expectation on Eskom.



However, as a party that also takes our environmental responsibility very seriously, we need to emphasize the

importance of the government’s management of nuclear facilities. While nuclear power is a very clean source of energy generation as opposed to our country’s over-reliance on fossil fuels, we still need to be cognisance of the dangers that come with it.



Therefore, we welcome the Bill’s progressive attempt to address some of our concerns regarding this matter as it seeks to provide financial provision for costs associated with this safe rehabilitation or decommissioning of nuclear facilities.



Financially and environmentally our country cannot afford to follow the same status quo these facilities, as we have with some of our gold and coal mine shafts that have been left unrehabilitated.



It is with this in mind that we urge the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy to ensure that effective plans are put in place for nuclear waste disposal and that the regulatory body is made-up of individuals with the necessary knowledge and expertise.



Hon Chairperson, the only way in which public trust in this transformative power solution can be gained is to ensure that

South Africans are convinced of the government’s ability to safely dispose off nuclear ways.


Further, we also welcome this Bill’s intend to ensure that consequence management measures are in place as it seeks to provide for administration funds.



Notwithstanding the concerns raised, the IFP supports the Bill. I thank you.


Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon House Chair, this National Nuclear Regulator Bill is necessary because of technological advances since the previous law was adopted.



Due to this technical nature of the whole Bill, it is not easy reading. There are some interesting aspects like: facility is apparently a far better word than installation, and activity rather than action.


However, the most important thing about this whole Bill is the transparency and safety of the country and its citizens with nuclear activities, not actions, being taken. And in that sense, it’s a good Bill which the Freedom Front would support.

Now, South Africa is a nuclear power. We don’t have a bomb anymore, but we have medical and research facilities in which cases we play in the premier league and it is important as these kind of activities, when done wrong, can cause irreparable harm.





Daar is ’n paar goed wat belangrik is. Die land gebruik ook kernkrag vir elektrisiteit. Die heel beste kernkragsentrale is die son. Dit is presies op die regte afstand van ons af, om nie skade te veroorsaak nie. Die tegnologie om dit op te vang, het ook saam met die skepping gekom, naamlik groen plante. Ons is effens beperk in ons eie vermoë om elektrisiteit, en nie net hitte-energie nie, van die son te oes.


Dit is waarom ou kernkragoplossings soos die korrelbedreaktors, kleinskaalse modulêre korrelbedreaktors nou weer ’n nuwe lewe kry. Suid-Afrikaanse tegnologie, wat ons ongelukkig self nek omgedraai het – en met ons bedoel ek net die ANC-regering – en wat om daardie rede weer terugkom na Suid- Afrika toe, vanuit dieselfde navorsers, maar waar hule nou in Amerika sit.

Die wetsontwerp bevat twee sake, wat die Minister betref betref, wat eintlik nogal baie belagrik is. Die een is dat klousule 39 van die wetsontwerp dit vir die Minister moontlik gemaak het om sekere wesenlike magte na die direkteur-generaal te delegeer, en daarmee dus sy eie politieke aanspreeklikheid vir swak besluite eenvoudig van hom te verwyder. Ons het in Suid-Afrika in die verlede al Ministers gehad wat heel aarskynlik nie die egniese kennis rondom kernskrag geha het nie e nook nie die belangstelling om dit te verkry nie. Hulle het dan daarmee Suid-Afrika in ’n paar baie moeilike situasies laat beland.


Die wetsontwerp soos hy gestaan het sou dit moontlik gemaak het vir hierdie mense om sonder verantwoordbaarheid terug te gaan en net eenvoudig te sê dat dit die direkteur-generaal is wat so besluit het. Hy sou dan dan sê dat hy nie veel van daardie dinge weet nie, en dis die einde daarvan.



Gelukkig is klousule 39 van die wetsontwerp deur die portefeuljekomitee verwerp, en dit sal nie deel wees van ’n nuwe wet nie.



Dan kom ons natuurlik ook by meningsverskille, wat tussen die Ministers en die raad kan inkom. En dit is belangrik dat die

Minister moet weet dat die mense wat hy aanstel op hierdie raad, kundiges op die gebied moet wees, nie noodwendig ondersteuners van kernkrag nie. As ons kyk na die geval van mnr Pieter Bekker, wat hy afgedank het en toe weer moes aanstel as ’n lid van die raad, omdat hy gesê het dat hy nie op die beheerliggaam kan wees of op die regulatoriese owerheid kan wees, sonder om dit te ondersteun nie. Daarmee het hy dit presies verkeerd verstaan. Iemand met die nodige kennis, maar wat skepties is oor die tegnologie is juis ’n belagrike korreftief in ’n saak soos hierdie. Ek dank u.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, I got to get used to saying Deputy Speaker because it’s always the Chairperson or the Speaker. But welcome, Deputy Speaker.



The NFP will support the amendment in terms of this Bill tabled here today.



I think what is important for us to note that whilst this has a lot of advantages, there are also risks attached to it, and let us no forget the Chernobyl disaster 38 years ago where an estimated 30 people died immediately, with another 60 of them over a period of time.

But I think having taken note of the report, we are quiet convinced that the committee has done everything it necessary has to do, including, of course, submissions and we do note that Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse, Outa, on e of the organizations, has raised concerns about its independence.



But I think if you take the cost-effectiveness of nuclear energy, we must welcome this.



So, the NFP will support this Bill.



Let me also draw the attention, hon Deputy Speaker, to this House. We got up to some very bad news yesterday, very painful news indeed, that Dr Zamambo Siphokazi Mkhize, one of the very few paediatricians that we have in this country, was brutally murdered and her body dumped in the boot of the vehicle in Imbali township.



This is the kind of life some of our people have to go through in this country as a result of the high levels of crime, and that is why I think we say police officers must treat the criminals with the contempt it deserves. And perhaps it’s time to have a relook of the death penalty in the country as well.

But having said that let us also take note of what’s happening in Palestine. 18 people were brutally massacred yesterday in Rafah by the Zionist state of Israel.


And I don’t know if we’ve noted that very little or nothing is said when a black doctor gets massacred by people on the left. But had it been a white doctor that was murdered in that manner, I can tell you this House would be abuzz with that news. Black lives don’t matter when it comes to them. That is the white supremacy that exists all over the world, the white domination.


But also, we want to say South Africa needs to enhance its nuclear capability because some of those, like the West, seems to abuse that authority that they have, based on the nuclear available in their ... [Inaudible.] ... we support this. Thank you very much.



The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Hon members, let us convey our condolences to the Mkhize family for that death that hon Shaik Emam refers to. I think it is appropriate that we convey our disgust for this criminality. Let it be brought to a halt as soon as yesterday. Thank you very much.

Ms N P TYOBEKA-MAKEKE: Hon Acting Speaker, the African National Congress supports the amendment to the National Nuclear Regulator Bill. The stated objectives of this Bill correspond with the ANC’s policies imperatives in the nuclear industry which assert that nuclear and radiation activities such as the medical uses of radiation, the operation of nuclear insulations, the production, transport and use of radioactive material, and the management of radioactive waste must be subject to standards of safety, as recommended by the International Atomic Energy Agency. While the primary responsibility for nuclear safety falls within the remit of the National Nuclear Regulation, nuclear and radiation risk transcends the National Nuclear Regulator, NNR, and thus the amendment to section 6 of this Bill provides the organs of state, including the various departments: Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, the Department of Health, the Department of Energy, the Department of Employment and Labour, the Department of Minerals Resources and Energy, the Department of Water and Sanitation, and the Department of Transport to co-operate, to ensure the effective monitoring and control of radiation hazards in addition to nuclear hazards.

Interestingly, corporation and partnerships amongst organs of state are not an automatic byproduct of this Bill but require clear and bold steps to explore solutions to cross cutting regulatory issues in the nuclear industry. Unfortunately, before the amendment to the Bill, the NNR did not have a leeway to define ear and bold steps to co-operation and partnerships amongst organs of state leading to the NNR’s inability to act as a safety net between uranium contaminated tailings and the public, for instance.


To explore potential solutions to this, section 6 empowers the NNR to sign agreements with various organs on state that define roles, mechanisms and procedures for co-operation and partnerships. Perhaps important to this debate, the agreements also include specific steps to take in case of noncompliance or disagreement over the implementation of the agreement. In this way, this Bill encourages interaction amongst involved organs of state and allows them to develop a regulatory framework for nuclear and radiation safety with a focus on finding common ground.



The interaction between the NNR and the Department of Health, SA Health Products Authority, Sahpra, for example, can support quality improvement in nuclear medicine practices to meet

public expectations of health care and health product the public from unsafe or substandard health care practices. Nuclear medicine, which uses radioactive material, has had a positive effect in curbing various cancers such as prostate, thyroid cancer, neuroendocrine, tumours and, more recently, terminal brain cancer. Moreover, it has demonstrated effectiveness in improving the quality of life for patients with debilitating conditions like rheumatoid arthritis.



To ensure that nuclear medicine is recommended as the primary diagnostic or treatment, go and reaches patients in need.

Nuclear medicine centres must be established at district, provincial and national level hospitals across the country. Amendments to section 5 and 6 of this Bill empower the NNR and the Sahpra to co-operate to exercise regulatory oversight effectively and efficiently with respect to the monitoring and control of radioactive material use in nuclear medicine centres. While nuclear medicine centres are important, they are not the only key players in delivering nuclear medicine.

South African Nuclear Energy Corporation, Necsa, nuclear radioisotopes group also plays a critical role in the production and supply of nuclear technology-based products and services for health care such as molybdenum, which supports the practice of nuclear medicine.

As such, this Bill strives to deliver an optimal regulatory framework for nuclear medicine, which in turn will enable nuclear medicine centres as well as the NTP group and their professionals to achieve and maintain high standards of health care. Amendments to section 26, which extends and clarifies the responsibilities of the holder of authorisation and section 38, which extends the role of the NNR in emergency planning to emergency preparedness to respond, create an environment conducive enough for the NNR to ensure the health professionals in nuclear and radioactive facilities are well trained to improve safety and quality in health care practices on the other hand, and to review the emergency plans of nuclear and radioactive facilities and keep them updated to minimise radiological incidents and emergencies on the other hand.



Going further, the amendments to section 5 of the Bill empowers the NNR to exercise regulatory control related to safety over the construction, seating and decommissioning and closure of nuclear insulations. Part of the reason why this amendment is so attractive is that it empowers the NNR to play a critical role. I thank you, Acting Speaker. [Time expired.]

Mr S M JAFTA: Acting Speaker, the National Nuclear Regulator Amendment Bill seeks to amend the National Nuclear Regulator Act. The Bill authorises the regulator to perform additional regulatory functions and provides for additional powers of inspectors. It also regulates the decommissioning of nuclear facilities through introducing financial provisions... [Interjections.]


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr S L Tsenoli): Hon Jafta! Hon Jafta, one moment. Hon Hendricks, please switch off, and anybody else please let’s make sure that we stay switched off. Go ahead, hon Jafta, sorry about this interruption.



Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, Acting Speaker. It also regulates the decommissioning of nuclear facilities through introducing financial provisions dealing with rehabilitation and closure

... [Inaudible.] ... The Bill also provides for establishment of the National Dose Register and centralise database of radiation workers. Hon members, to fully understand the provisions of this Bill, one must look at the primary functions of the Nuclear Regulator. These include, amongst others, providing for the protection of persons property and the environment against nuclear damage through the establishment of safety standards and regulatory practices,

including exercising regulatory control related to safety over the design, construction, operation, manufacture of component parts and the decontamination decommissioning and closure of nuclear installations. The Bill was therefore set against these objectives. It introduces a regulatory regime that ensures that the regulator implement the provisions of the principal Act without hindrance. We therefore, hon Acting Speaker, support the report and the Bill. Thank you very much.




Mnr M G E HENDRICKS: Baie dankie.






Acting Speaker, it is very refreshing to have you in the House in top form. Hon Acting Speaker, I would like to congratulate the portfolio committee for going the extra mile to ensure that we have amendments before us that will meet international requirements. It is very important that South Africa shows that it keeps up with developments, although it is said that we have stopped research and development to have in place a Nuclear Bill because that would have put us with the big players to use nuclear energy. We’ve heard hon members speaking about the many benefits that the country can have as it grows this particular sector.

I hope that we do not forget that we do have a nuclear facility near Atteridgeville in Pretoria and as you know that was built at the same time of that of the Koeberg Nuclear Plant was built, but was largely used for research and development, some of the areas in health and other areas that hon members spoke about. I just hope that with the Regulatory Authority are being strengthened and working with so many different government departments which is also we need to congratulate the portfolio committee for bringing everyone on board. We need an incubator at Atteridgeville. Atteridgeville is one of our up-and-coming African areas. We have many young students there that can educate themselves with nuclear energy in this incubator and take the country forward.



I think it’s very important we’ve heard from the hon member of the EFF that we need to reduce electricity costs. It cannot be that because people are trying to make fortunes in Eskom that the country must pay these high costs. Therefore, I hope that there will be interest in seeing how we can better utilise the facility that we have in Atteridgeville. Al Jama-ah supports the amendments. Thank you very much, Acting Speaker.


Mr M J WOLMARANS: Hon Deputy Speaker, and the House ...


Baie goed.





Hon Deputy Speaker, the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill is also in our view, how we can maximise the country’s comparative advantage to drive sustainable development and the transition to a low-carbon economy.



Koeberg Nuclear Power Station, which is called Koeberg, is the lowest marginally primary energy cost of our base low stations. It was designed to operate for 40 years. Whilst its operating life serves both as the cheapest option for generating electricity on the levelized cost of electricity, LCOE, basis and as an investment into sustainable and low carbon electricity generation infrastructure, it will reach its end of design life in 2024, this year. Consequently, and in line with the integrated resource plan and expectations for continued energy security beyond 2024, South Africa has started to consider the extension of operations of Koeberg beyond the timeframe originally anticipated. Of importance, the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, has published safety requirements and safety guides to guide its member states for the operation of nuclear power plants beyond the

initial timeframe for which they were licenced or designed. On the safety side and consideration, planned activities related to the long-term operation, LTO, including ageing management of the infrastructure, systems, and components important to safety to enable Koeberg to operate its 1 854 megawatts capacity for another 20 years beyond 2024, is until 2045, it continues according to schedule, for instance, the IAEA’ safety aspects of long-term operations at Koeberg in March 2022, found that the plant has addressed the most important deviations in ageing management activities and preparations for the safe LTO. Nevertheless, some ageing management activities are still in progress for Koeberg’s LTO to achieve full compliance with the IAEA safety standards. For illustrative purposes, two of the most important ageing management activities within the scope of evaluation for LTO include reactor pressure vessel and steam generations, while significant milestones completed included the reactor pressure vessel replacement and three steam generators replacement at Koeberg one and two have not yet completed the similar long outage as Unit 1 to replace its three steam generators and the reactor pressure vessel. As such, completing the replacement of the three steam generators at Unit 2 is identified as being a prerequisite for Koeberg to operate safely beyond its

original licenced operating period of 40 years beyond 2024, this year.


The ANC supports the amendment of the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill since one of its primary objectives is to ensure that Koeberg’s LTO safety case is benchmarked against IAEA safety standards and international best practices. Put differently, the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill compliments the ANC’s policy imperatives in the nuclear industry as it empowers the nuclear the national nuclear regulator to oversee Koeberg’s LTO in a manner that ensures that the plan complies with nuclear safety to protect individuals, society, and the environment against radiological hazard linked to the use of nuclear technology as espoused by other members who have spoken before. Section 7 of this Bill expands the functions and administration tool of the regulator where it empowers the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill to approve or reject Koeberg’s requirements ... LTO’s safety case. It aligns or misaligns with national and international regulatory requirements - standard practices for LTO.



We are confident as the ANC that Eskom boasts impressive nuclear industry competencies as well as necessary staff and

supporting infrastructure that will persuade the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill to amend its current license to operate Koeberg safely and reliably for another 20 years.

Therefore, the process of amending Koeberg’s license will be cheaper and easier relative to the one associated with building a nuclear facility. Koeberg’s LTO is not only cost- effective but also keeps our climate change targets alive.

Consider, for example, while Koeberg produces about the same amount of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions per unit of electricity as wind and one-third of the emissions per unit of electricity when compared to solar.


The amendment of section 26 of this Bill recognizes climate change mitigation as a priority as it compels all nuclear authorizations, including Eskom, to set aside adequate financial resources for rehabilitation and decommissioning activities. The amendment to the Bill offers many benefits beyond Koeberg’s long-term operations, for instance, the amendment of section 2 of the Bill, which covers, amongst other things, site evaluation and manufacturing of components empowers and strengthens the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill to play a critical role in procurement framework for the 2500 megawatts Nuclear New Build Programme, NNBP. To be sure the amendments of section 2 of this Bill

tasks the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill with the responsibility to oversee crucial processes of selecting and evaluating size suitable for the construction of nuclear power installation as part of the implementation of the

2500 megawatts NNBP. Moreover, since the rollout of the 2500 megawatts aims to guarantee the industrialization and

localization policies of the country, the amendment of section


2 of the Bill empowers the National Nuclear Regulation Amendment Bill to determine which structures, systems, and components need to be specifically used in the construction of the nuclear installation.


In turn, the rollout of the 2000 megawatts NNBP will create a massive infrastructure development that stimulates the economy and enables the country to create thousands of high-quality jobs for engineers, scientists, artisans, technicians, and various professions. Going further, the amendment to this Bill is of fundamental importance when it comes to reaping greater potential benefits from the country’s comparative advantage in uranium.



Part of the reason why the amendment of this Bill is attractive to the ANC is that it empowers the NNRA Bill to regulate the facility where mining process registers are

carried out. [Time expired.] We thank you and support this Bill.




Speaker, allow me to thank all the hon members who were part of this debate for their support for the National Nuclear Regulatory Amendment Bill.


Deputy Speaker, the IAEA indicates that several countries are planning to include nuclear power for climate change mitigation as per their nationally determined contributions. And as the country, we are saying nuclear energy shall form part of South Africa’s strategy to mitigate climate change. Do you know why? It has been declared by the International Energy Agency that it is one of the cleanest sources of energy, and that includes oil and gas.



There is a view from the DA that there are processes that were not followed during the request for procurement, RFP, on the nuclear new build. However, our understanding is that all the due processes were followed. In 2021, Minister Mantashe determined in terms of section 34 of the Electricity Regulation Act of 2002 for the procurement of 2500 megawatts of nuclear. Again, when the Minister of Electricity, Dr

Ramokgopa took over, he followed the due processes, and he has done due diligence. What I’m going to advise is that rather than the DA taking money and taking the RFP for review, they must take that money and pay for the salaries of staff. This morning when I woke up, I saw an article indicating that the City of Cape Town is still struggling to manage their waste management, and the city is very dirty. So, take that money and sort out your problems. Thank you.



Debate concluded.



Bill read second time.







There was no debate.






moved: That the Report be adopted.




Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.






(Second Reading debate)




The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much, hon Speaker and hon members in the House, just a few facts, first one, municipalities cannot in the country provide reliable supply of treated water to their residents if there is no sufficient raw water available to them. Now, the water supply disruptions that are currently being experienced, particularly in eThekwini and Johannesburg and some part of Gauteng, are partly due to this shortage. It’s real. The other factors, of course, like huge leakages and other managerial issues with water. Shortage of raw water in eThekwini and surrounding municipalities will be solved by the construction of Umkomaas Water project, which is a R28 billion project. It’s a dam and pipeline, and this is a project that is going to take off next month when we get to the sites.



Similarly, Rand Water will be able to start abstracting and treating water from the integrated Vaal River system and then

start supplying more treated water to Gauteng municipalities once the 40 billion phase two of the Lesotho Highlands Project has been completed. In the future, we will require more such projects if we were to ensure water security for the country. However, additional resource projects also need to be developed to ensure access to water services to all South Africans.


The Department of Water and Sanitation is currently implementing several national resource infrastructure projects which will enable increased access to other services, including long-awaited uMzimvubu Water Project in the Eastern Cape. However, South Africa is a water scarce country and there are limits to which you can continue providing water through building additional dams. There’s climate change, there are all other issues. Therefore, in future, we’ll also need to diversify the water mix such as desalination, ground waters and using return flows from treated wastewater systems. We also need to have more effective water conservation, and water demand management. We talk about this every day.



Hon members, the water sector in South Africa must be financially self-sustaining. In other words, citizens and industries must pay for the water they use, and these revenues

must be used to maintain and operate water infrastructure as well as to invest in new water infrastructure. Now the main reason for establishing the National Water Resource Infrastructure Agency, NWRIA, is to address this challenge of insufficient funding for national water resource infrastructure. Currently, such funding is raised by TCTA, which is an entity under the Department of Water and Sanitation and the TCTA doesn’t own any substantial assets and can only raise funds in the market based on explicit National Treasury guarantees.



The establishment of the agency will result in the entity with a very substantial balance sheet consisting of all the national water resource infrastructure assets and the revenue streams associated with those. The agency will therefore be in a much stronger position from a balance sheet point of view to raise funds in the financial markets to national water resource infrastructure projects. This agency will be 100% owned by the state. The agency will be formed by merging TCTA and the internal trading entity within the department. The mandate of the agency is drawn from the mandates of the national government regarding water as set out in the Constitution of the National Water Act and the Department of Water and Sanitation will retain responsibility of National

Water Resource Planning and Policy Development. The department’s on-going planning will guide the Agency on new investments in national water resource. So, the establishment of the agency will not solve all the challenges in South Africa. One of the key challenges, is the general poor performance of municipalities regarding the provision of water services. To address this challenge, the Department of Water and Sanitation, gazetted amendments to the Water Services Act in December last year and the Water Services Amendment Bill will be presented in the new Parliament after the elections, and we are returning to do that. Thank you very much.




Mnu M R MASHEGO: Sawubona Nkosikazi.






Hon Chairperson, the government is determined to transform the state capacity of water and infrastructure development to meet the growing demand for both domestic and commercial water use.



This commitment is evident in its plans to create the National Water Resources Transaction. For that reason, the Ministry of Water and Sanitation tabled in Parliament the long-awaited South African National Water Infrastructure Agency Bill. As

the portfolio committee, we have successfully processed it internally. We are also required by law, to involve our people in the law-making process through public participation, which we have also successfully done as a portfolio.


Hon members, the public participation is one of the cornerstones of the democracy and it brings into reality the Freedom Charter interaction that the people shall govern. As a section 75 Bill, we issued a call for public comments utilising the provincial newspapers and the parliamentary website. Having received public comments, we invited those individuals and organisations who wish to make oral submissions to our public hearings, which were held virtually sometimes in November 2023. The committee received 120 comments from 82 individuals and organisations, and out of the total number, 75% of the submissions were not supporting the Bill. It is important to emphasise that the submissions which were not supporting the Bill did not necessarily address the substantive issues relating to the content of the Bill.

However, the committee had grounds to continue processing the Bill until its finalisation pays on its desirability.



Chairperson, as the portfolio committee, we deliberated on various submissions, including the oral submission from

Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, SA Local Government Association and Salga. The National Treasury and Salga having given their support to the Bill, while Cosatu raised the concern about the agency certification of the Bill of the public sector. The department has responded to all these submissions made by the public, including three highlighted above to the portfolio committee’s satisfaction.



Therefore, the department has assured Cosatu that the transfer of staff from the department to the agency will be done according to the provision of the Labor Relations Act and the relevant bargaining structures. Therefore, we encourage Cosatu to use those platforms to raise any matters they deem important to safeguard the interest of the workers. We have made the amendment to the Bill to ensure that Parliament’s role in overseeing the Agency is clearly outlined and that the appointment to the Board of the Agency are by merit eliminating the possibility of nepotism and patronages. We have ensured that the Bill will not establish another state- owned entity to be subjected to a State Capture. We have drawn lessons from the State Capture Commission, and as a result, the committee on one lesson was that we put into practice

measures in place to ensure that the ministerial powers and authorities over the agency and its Board are not abused.


Hon Chairperson, under the leadership of the Ministry, the water boards have turned the corner. We are now a relatively functioning department that is beginning to provide the necessary support to the various water service authorities. We, however, acknowledged that there are still capacity challenges both in the water boards and in water service authorities prohibiting these institutions from playing their roles expected, to provide constant water supply. Among the functions of the of the Agency is to provide both technical and advisory support to the department entities, including the water boards and the water service authorities. Enhancing the capabilities of the water boards and water services authorities will empower them to take a lead in the water sector and to reduce dependence on service providers. Some of the current challenges we are facing because of their shoddy work.



We have commended the department for recruiting and appointing more than 800 technicians and scientists into the fold last year only. We firmly believe that the department is on the right track to build and enhance its capacity and to intervene

and solve the water and sanitation infrastructure challenges facing the communities of this country. As a result, we have the de-establishment of the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority TCTA and the establishment of the new Agency. We must leverage the TCTA’s capacity and experience and to take the good track record that measure infrastructure projects at least 20 years. The TCTA has completed important projects that include dam constructions and the necessary infrastructure to supply Cape Town, eThekwini, Msunduzi corridor as well as the power stations and Sasol refineries in Mpumalanga. Over these years, the authority has managed to raise loans worth billions of rand to finance all these projects with user charges saving as repayment.



The asset base from the Trans-Caledon Authorities will serve as the collateral to crowd private funding and ensure access to adopt finances. As the African National Congress, we call upon the department and the labour unions to manage the process carefully to ensure that the new agency does not lose the existing staff that have got experience as is proven themselves over the years.


As the African National Congress, we submit that the Agency should provide critical support to some of the struggling

water service authorities, who are struggling to attract and retain the skilled personnel, by assigning personnel to water services authorities. We can lessen the excessive reliance on the consultant service, thereby, freeing up funds for the crucial and essential government services. As a country with a democratic government that seeks to create an ethical and responsibility, the committee is therefore supporting the Bill. Thank you very much.



Mr S J MOORE: Chairperson, as the ANC seeks to realm this terrible legislation through, with the parliamentary majority that they will not have for much longer, perhaps those of us in touch with reality or to reflect on how we arrived at yet another ANC induced crisis, I come from the beautiful and dynamic province of Gauteng, traditionally known as South Africa’s economic heartland. Yet, over the past weeks and months, our place of gold has been the site of chaos and ineptitude as taps have gone dry inside of homes, schools, police stations and hospitals. A state that cannot even provide the most basic of services to its people is the very definition of a failing state, and I humbly say to the South Africans that unless we change our vote, our taps will go dry for longer.

I am a more privileged Gauteng resident, and when the taps go dry, I can afford to purchase water. However, imagine the realities of many that cannot, imagine the story of the 85- year old woman from Coronationville who is ill with cancer, yet on top of this, is deprived of her basic right to sanitation, imagine the story of the 78-year old woman from Kagiso, whose body is too old to carry the 20 litre buckets that they get delivered from water tankers. So, she’s forced to pay others with her limited pension. Imagine those who are sitting at our already failing public health hospitals and are turned away because there’s simply no water to help them. From load shedding, now, we have water shedding, and there is one commonality, the ANC. Gauteng and South Africa are in crisis, and we need political change which this Bill will not provide

... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.




Mr S J MOORE: Today we are presented with the legislation that seeks to repeat exactly how we arrived here. Among the many provisions, the Bill seeks to further centralised power to the Minister. It aims to create the Eskom of water, and the Eskom of water will lead to national water shedding. I say that again, the Eskom of water will lead to national water

shedding. Has the ANC not learnt anything from its former Minister, Nomvula Mokonyane, who spent billions on her war on leaks, yet our country still loses almost 47% of its water to leaks, but in the ANC’s world, there is no water crisis. Their puppet mayor in Johannesburg was quoted saying that there is no water crisis, the same mayor who said that the water is flowing through the pipes when a bore was closed. The residents of Gauteng are angry, and we are desperate for change. However, on 29, we can turn this ship around.


The DA will stop this disastrous legislation in its tracks, and it will not become the law. The DA will build the new infrastructure, we will maintain our country’s current infrastructure, we will ensure that the local governments spend their money wisely and that no water is wasted, we will ensure that the government infrastructure grants are spent wisely, and we will regularly test all of the nation’s water to ensure that it’s safe for consumption. We can deliver this change... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.




Mr S J MOORE: We do not have to live in societies where our homes, schools and hospitals are dry. We can have a government

that cares for our human rights and does not deprive us of water. It is time for the DA to rescue South Africa. I thank you.


Mrs M R MOHLALA: House Chairperson, we are here to debate the Bill that seeks to establish a state-owned entity that will be responsible for water management in this country. While we don’t object to the importance and strategic role of the

state-owned entity, the problem we are facing as a country is a different problem. The people of Giyani were promised water since 2009, despite living near Nandoni Dam, which is just 50 kilometres away with 160 million cubic meters, the people of Giyani still don’t have water today. The people of Umhlabuyalingana living next to Jozini Dam, which is the third largest dam in South Africa, they still do not have water.



Also, the people of Sekhukhune living near De Hoop Dam, which is one of the biggest dams in Limpopo, still do not have water. The people of eThekwini living near Inanda Dam, have no water. The people of Howick, the community of Mpophomeni in KwaZulu-Natal who are 23 kilometres away from Midmar Dam, still have no water. The people of Colesberg in the Northern Cape were living 50 kilometres away from Gariep Dam, still do not have water. The people of Dennilton and the surrounding

villages near Loskop Dam, do not have water. The people of Itireleng in the North West, who are situated 25 kilometres from Taung Dam, still do not have water. There are many more people who don’t have water living near and far from the dams. The people of Umlazi, the people of Guguletu, the people of Alexandra, the people of Madibeng in the North West, the people of Kuruman, the people of Warrenton in the Northern Cape, the people of Thohoyandou go in Venda, the people of Musina and all its surrounding areas such as Nancefield, Matswale, Campbell, Harper extension 14, extention 9 and 10, Mshongoville and Skoonplaas, have no water. The people of Seshego in Polokwane, Limpopo, they don’t have water.



Our problem is not that we don’t have water in South Africa, our problem is not that we don’t have engineers in South Africa, our problem is not that we cannot build water infrastructures in this country, the problem is that the ANC government has neglected the water infrastructure in the last

30 years. They have neglected the water treatment plants, they have neglected the water network system, and they’ve allowed water leaks to become the permanent future of the water system. They have done this while they are giving the people of Hammanskraal water that is killing them. When we say that the ANC is killing people with water, we are talking about the

people they are killing in Hammanskraal, when we say that the ANC government is killing people with water, we are referring to the residents of Kimberly who are consuming contaminated water unfit for any living being. Their health and wellbeing are compromised due to the negligence of this government, resulting in shortened and deteriorated lives.



Therefore, the question is what is to be done? Water belongs to all of us as a national heritage and water is life. We need to ensure that all households have access to pipe drinkable water inside their houses. We don’t want a state-owned entity that is going to manage tenders between the state and contractors, we want the state-owned entity that will employ engineers, a state-owned entity that will employ artisan, a state-owned entity that will employ planners and build internal capacity to upgrade all aging and dysfunctional water infrastructures, we want a state-owned entity that will ensure that all water services authorities and water service providers have water safety plans, we want the state-owned entity that will carry out regular water quality test and evaluations across all municipalities so as to achieve excellent physical, chemical and microbiological water quality compliance.

We want a state-owned entity that will ensure that the waste of water through water leaks is a thing of the past, and we don’t want a state-own entity that operates for the sake of profit, but a state-owned entity that operates for the benefit of the people. We are raising all this because transparency and the accountability when dealing with the National Water Resource Infrastructure Agency Bill was at times shambolic. We appreciate that there’s a need to improve the management of our water resources, and we know that the ANC government has no political will ... [Interjections.] ... When the EFF takes over power on 29 May, we are going to prioritise water and make sure that our people have access to drinkable water. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mohlala, your time is up.


Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, if we review the role of all our country’s state-owned enterprises, SOEs, we would find that they all have one thing in common, that is to provide the people of South Africa with effective and efficient service delivery in various industries, sadly, in reality, the inverse is unfortunately true. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I am sorry hon Princess Buthelezi. I can hardly hear, would you please lower your noise levels. Hon Princess Buthelezi, you can go ahead.


Ms S A BUTHELEZI: The state-owned enterprises have been failing dismally for years on end, and the people of South Africa have been left to suffer the consequences. Chair, I believe that I do not have to remind anyone in this House of the effect of load shedding due to Eskom’s failure. The commuters have been struggling to get to their places of employment due to the Passenger Rail Agency SA, Prasa’s failure, or thousands of South Africans losing their sources of income due to the SA Post Office, SAPO’s failure. These examples are merely the tip of the failing SOE iceberg. The very entities trusted with supporting our country’s economic growth, addressing the economic injustices of the past and the current weltering economy, have unfortunately been consistently draining our economy. Yet, here we are again, debating the establishment of another state-owned entity.

Water is the lifeline of all the South Africans, therefore, it is critical that it be managed effectively and efficiently, and that the constitutional right to water is upheld.

The current condition of our country’s water infrastructure is concerning, to say the least. The Bill provides for a single national government institution to manage water infrastructure and resources. However, considering that corruption and mismanagement have run rampant in the institutions run by the government, as the IFP, we have to err on the side of caution. Why is the solution always a new agency or state-run entity when we already have institutions in place to ensure the effective management of our country’s water infrastructure?

The unnecessary duplication of mandates only provides the government’s departments with effective scapegoat when they fail to deliver on their mandates. We have seen how the departments blame shift and how the South Africans are still left with challenges unaddressed.


For this Bill to have any impact, the government needs to ensure that the management of this new entity rests on the shoulders of individuals who are capable of doing their job and truly desire to serve the people of South Africa. In consideration of the reservations made, the IFP supports the Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.




Mnr P MEY: Voorsitter, die waterkrisis wys hoe ver die ANC van die realiteit verwyder is. In Suid-Afrika onder die ANC regering is kundiges op alle tereine besig om die land te verlaat as gevolg van regstellende aksie en word kaders aangestel, wat nie oor die nodige ervaring en kennis beskik nie. In die meeste munisipaliteite is daar nie meer ervare werkers in diens nie en word kontrakteurs teen hoë koste aangestel om die werk te doen, terwyl hulle die stelsel nie behoorlik verstaan nie.


Die Departement van Water en Sanitasie is verantwoordelik vir die lewering van skoon water en onderhoud van die infrastruktuur. Dit is egter skokkend om te sien dat ’n toestand van geen water eers in klein dorpies ontstaan het, maar nou na die stede oorgevloei het. In Johannesburg sit duisende mense vir twee weke sonder water, omdat ’n amptenaar nie ‘n klep oopgdraai het nie.



In die meeste gevalle is die water in die damme wel beskikbaar, maar die krane is droog, as gevolg van ervalle infrastruktuur.



Die watergehalte het al so verswak dat mense al hoe meer drinkwater van private besighede koop. Daar is ’n daadwerklik

waterkrisis, maar daar moet ernstig gekyk word om kundigheid weer terug in die sisteem te kry. Die ANC beskik nie oor die kapasiteit en/of die politieke wil om die situasie te besleg nie.


Die water wat aan byna die helfte van die land verskaf word, voldoen nie aan die nodige gehaltetoetse nie. In baie gevalle betaal die munisipaliteit nie verskaffers se rekeninge nie, toevoer word verminder en die wat wel hulle rekeninge aan die munisipaliteite betaal, ly ook daaronder.



Miljoene rande is oor die laaste drie dekades vir die instandhouding, opgradering en oprig van nuwe infrastruktuur begroot, maar al wat gesien word, is agteruitgang en verval. Die regering het slegs een nuwe dam die afgelope 30 jaar gebou. Vir agt jaar is hulle besig om die Clan Williamdam se wal te verhoog, maar dis nog nie voltooi nie. Voor 1994 is daar 200 damme in Suid-Afrika gebou.



Ons weet Suid-Afrika is een van die droogste lande in die wêreld en daarom het die VF Plus in 2022 voorspel dat beurtkrag, met die hulp van die privaatsektor, binne drie jaar verbeter kan word.

Ons sien die goeie werk wat die afgelope jare deur die privaatsektor op die gebied van sonkrag gemaak is. Die regering, tesame met die privaatsektor kan net so ’n verskil maak wat die waterkrisis betref.


In Tswane gaan ongeveer 35% en in Johannesburg 50% van water verlore. Dit is ’n tendens dwarsoor die land, as gevolg van vervalle infrastruktuur. Die kundigheid by Rand Water, wat verantwoordelik is vir die suiweringswerke het ook die afgelope jare drasties versleg.



Wat is die kort- en langtermynoplossing vir die waterkrisis? Nuwe waterbronne sal gevind moet word en gebruikers van water moet opgevoed word om minder water te gebruik. Die privaatsektor sal betrokke moet raak by die verbetering van die infrastruktuur.



Die VF Plus het sedert 2019 gepleit dat geen bouplan by munisipaliteite goedgekeur mag word, alvorens daar nie voorsiening gemaak word vir die opgaar van water nie. Dit kan geskied deur watertenks verpligtend te maak en die hoeveelheid liters moet bepaal word deur die grootte van die dakoppervlakte. Elke RDP-woning moet van ‘n 5 000 liter watertenk voorsien word. In sekere dele van die land, waar

goeie reënval is, behoort inwoners nie eens van munisipale water gebruik te maak nie.


Indien daar nie onmiddelik aan die voorstel van die VF Plus aandag gegee word nie, sal inwoners binne vyf jaar van honger en dors sterf. Die tyd het aangebreek om die land van die ANC te reining. Dit moet op 29 Mei 2024 gebeur. Ek dank u.



Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chairperson, the ACDP notes that this Bill seeks to provide for the establishment of the SA National Water Resources Infrastructure Agency as a state-owned company and major public entity. In other words, the establishment of another state-owned entity, SOE. The Department of Water and Sanitation is commissioned to ensure that the country’s water resources are managed sustainably and equitably for everyone’s benefit, but has been in a constant state of flux, contributing to instability of governance.



The ACDP agrees with the Helen Suzman Foundation, which noted numerous challenges in the department, which includes poor financial management. In 2017/18 financial year, the department reported an overdraft of R119 million, cumulative unauthorised spending of R933 million, irregular expenditure of R6,1 billion, R16 million of fruitless and wasteful

expenditure and accruals and payables to the value of just over R2 billion. The Water Trading Entity is in an even worse financial position. It reported an overdraft of R1,4 billion, fruitless and wasteful expenditure of R1 billion, accruals and payments to the value of R1,4 billion and a deficit of

R573 million. The situation today is no different.




The Department has consistently experienced instability in its leadership. Over the past few years, it has had eight different directors-general, fulfilling the position on ten different occasions and mostly occupied in an acting capacity. South Africa’s water infrastructure is at risk of failure. The consistently poor performance of water and sanitation infrastructure is attributed to poor governance in national and local departments, poor asset management, insufficient maintenance, lack of technical skills within key planning and operational divisions in both the department and municipalities, poor enforcement of policies, theft and vandalism of infrastructure, financial mismanagement, and funding shortfalls.


South Africa’s average water loss, defined as non-revenue water, through physical leakages or commercial losses by billing errors and theft, is estimated to be over 40% of water

used. The ACDP believes that well monitored public private partnerships are the way to go but certainly, not another SOE. If a state-owned anything was efficient, the ACDP might give these plans another chance, but we will not give our approval to another opportunity for corruption with no improvement in service delivery. The ACDP has heard the SOS of South Africans. We declare that South Africa needs the ACDP and the ACDP calls on South Africans to vote for the ACDP on 29 May.

The ACDP does not support this Bill. I thank you.




Mr B N HERRON: Hon House Chair, while the country continues to build the energy back of the energy crisis, our next crisis is charging at us in the form of water, cholera outbreaks, pipes running dry in multiple communities, and a continued drop in water quality shows where we are heading, and the cliff is fast approaching. This Bill needs to create a significant enough impact that the opening of taps is normalized and not politicized.



The Bill before us today seeks to establish an agency primarily focused on securing water infrastructure funding through the authority of the state. While it is undeniable that funding for the massive rehaul of water infrastructure is vital, the continued focus on operational changes will lead to

our current crisis in areas like Gauteng, devolving duty like the lack of agency. The 2023 Water Services Drop Programme reports that blue-green and no drop watch reports show that almost 30% of the water in our municipalities is unsafe to drink.



We should set alarm bells off, but the continued collapse of infrastructure remains the primary concern. Good stress is that water is a basic human right in that this country is failing its citizens by denying them this right. The SA Human Rights Commission, in Limpopo, reports of 2023, showed that a third of the residents do not have access to safe water.

Streams that are unmaintained are the only source of water for cooking, cleaning and drinking.



Good asks the nation to accept the fact that we are already in a water crisis. This time we acknowledge that and act with urgency that this human right requires. The Bill has the potential to ensure that there’s a faster process of refurbishments or the potential to be another wasteful expenditure. We must ensure that it is the former. The objective of the agency that the Bill seeks to create, to provide, to operate and maintain the national water resources infrastructure and fund the cost thereof. This is a colossal

task and requires an immense focus on groundwork and transparency.


With a continued breakdown in both water and sanitation infrastructure we expect this agency to do evaluations thoroughly of our existing infrastructure and target the communities who are most vulnerable. In a month that celebrates Human Rights, let us remind ourselves that water is the single most necessary resource for human survival. With the dire state that our water resources we find ourselves in, we are risking human lives. When we consider changing supply and environmental factors, we are putting the whole of the country at risk in the next 30 years. Good supports the implementation of this Bill. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, a report by the SA Human Rights Commission is a damning report on the state of quality water in KwaZulu-Natal. Minister, whilst we acknowledge and welcome the SA National Water Resources Infrastructure Bill, we need to be mindful of one very important factor - the exploitation through the use of water tankers. So, there is no motivation to fix the infrastructure, because high levels of corruption take place through these water tankers. We have seen what happened in the IFP-run municipalities in Zululand,

which coincidentally the DA and the EFF have raised seriously previously about the corruption in these IFP-run municipalities. Thank you to the EFF for raising that, anyway.


But you would find that the DA will not go one step further and do anything about it, but their focus is with the obsession on the ANC. Let us also not forget what happened a few years ago in the Western Cape when they were receiving R600 million kickback from the Israeli government when they said that they had a water crisis – “Day Zero”, if you remember. Suddenly, “Day Zero” has disappeared. But what happened in that process? Ordinary Capetonians had to pay a very high price with additional levies and surcharges even though they were using less water, they were still paying more. That is the level of corruption.



I am not sure when the hon member spoke, if she said the DA is dirty or the City of Cape under the DA is dirty, but whatever it is both ways, they are dirty in what they are doing. Be that as it may, 95% of people in Palestine do not have clean drinking water as a result of the Zionist State of Israel.

These DA will go and work together with the Zionist State of Israel, support them, defend them, and what can we expect in the future, if the City of Cape Town remains in the DA’s hands

or the Western Cape.




So, let me tell you in the Western Cape, you will face the same plight as the Palestinian. You wouldn’t even be able to have a decent glass of water in the Western Cape because they don’t care about anybody else but white supremacists - that is what it is all about. That is why you would find that the Cape Flats, Nyanga, Langa and Crossroads people have no services when it comes to water and other things. So, I am not surprised. But go to Bishopscourt and other areas - that is where they come ... [Time expired.] ... support. So, I am calling on you not to support the DA.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much hon Shaik Emam, your time is up. The hon Matuba?




Mof M M MATUBA: Modulasetlo ya hlomphehang, ditho tse hlophehang, maloko ka kakaretso. Setheo sena se tla ntshetsa pele le ho sireletsa dikatleho tsa demokerasi le tokelo ya ho fumana metsi a hlwekileng ebile a noa ke MaAfrika Borwa ohle. Ke hona re tshwanelang ho kgetha mokgatlo wa ANC.



Modulasetulo ya hlopmphehang, ha re phethela Kgwedi ya

Ditokelo tsa Botho tlasa sehlooho se reng, Dilemo tse Mashome a Mararo tsa Hlompho le Kgothatso ya Ditokelo tsa Botho naheng ya bo rona, re sebditse mokgwa wa molao ho fitisa melao e tswellisang pele le e tlisang phetoho e tla fana ka moelelo ho ditokelo tsena tsa botho.



Setsi se tla fetola lekala la metsi molemong wa setjhaba se neng se ihlokomolesilwe naheng ka ho ntlafatsa mehlodi ya metsi. Kajeno ka Ntlong ena e kgababane, re phethela tshebeletso ya molao ho amohela Molaotheo wa setsi sa naha sa meralo ya mehlodi ya metsi o tla fetola lekala metsi molemong wa setjhaba se neng se qheletswe ka thoko naheng ya rona.



Batho ba batsho ka kakaretso le Afrika Borwa ka ho kgetheha, re araba mohlomphehi Moore. Setheo sena se tla ba bokgoni ho kenya tshebetsong diporojeke tse kgolo tsa meralo ya metheo ya metsi naheng ka bophara esita le dibakeng tse hole tsa mahae.



Ditho tse hlomphehang, le ha diporojeke tsena tse kgolo tsa meralo ya metheo ya metsi di na le mauno hang-hang tse kang thlahiso ya mesebetsi le ntlafatso ya moruo wa lehae nakong ya mokgahlelo wa kaho, re na le tshepo ya hore lekala lena le tla ba le kgahlamelo ya moshwelella moruo wa kahisano metseng e neng efutsanehile le metseng ya kgale, haholo dibakeng tsa






... during apartheid times.






Ke rata ho totobatsa ditshebetso tsa manthla tsa ... [Kena hanong.]




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Matuba, there is a point of order.



Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Could you please take your seat, hon Matuba.



Mr B A RADEBE: I am rising on Rule 84. Hon Mohlala has spoken an unparliamentary word by saying the member is speaking lies. he must be called to order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mohlala and hon Khawula, please refrain from using such language. Could you

please withdraw? Could you please withdraw what you have just said. Hon Mohlala, could you please withdraw what you have said. It is unparliamentary.


Ms M R MOHLALA: I withdraw.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you. Hon Khawula, could you please withdraw that. It’s unparliamentary?




Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga, kodwa mina ngithe ... [Ubuwelewele.] akashongo ukuthi ... [Ubuwelewele.] Uyahlukumeza. Ngiyaxolisa.




Thank you very much. Shall we proceed. Hon Matuba?





Mof M M MATUBA: Ditho tse hlomphehang, le ha diporojeke tsena tse kgolo tsa meralo ya metheo metsi di na le mauno hang-hang tse kang thlahiso ya mesebetsi le ntlafatso ya moruo wa lehae, nakong ya mokgahlelo wa kaho, re na le Tshepo ya hore lekala lena le tla ba le kgahlamelo ya moshwelella ya moruo wa kahisano metseng e neng e futsanehile mehleng ya kgale, haholo

dibakeng tsa mahaeng. Ke ka hona MaAforika Borwa a tshwanetseng ho kgetha mokgatlo wa ANC.


Ke rata ho totobatsa ditshebetso tsa mantlha tsa naha le hore setsi se tla matlafatsa ditshukunyetso jwang. Ditho tse kgabane, ho fitswa ha molao motheo, ha ho bolele hore e tla theha lekala ho tloha qalong, ho ena le hoo, e tla kenyelletsa le ho aha hodima mosebetsi wa motheo wa ... [Ho se utlwahale.]

... karolo ya lekala la moralo wa motheo wa lefapha le setsi sa kgwebo ya metsi le basebetsi ba lona.



Re na le Tshepo ya hore lekala lena le tla matlafatsa ho kena dipakeng tsa Matona ho rarabolla diphephetso tsohle tse amang metsi. Ha jwale, Letona le kene dipakeng diporofensing tse fapaneng tse kang Limpopo, Musina, le Gauteng, Tshwane.



Setjhaba sa Musina se sokola ho fumana phepelo ya metsi ka dinako tsohle ka lebaka la kgaello ya metsi. Letona le kene dipakeng ka ho theha tshebetso ya katoloso le tshebeletso ya metsi e tla fitisa ho tswa Zimbabwe e le tharollo ya mahareng dikolotsong tsa metsi ha merero e ntse e tswelletse ho hliphiswa bakeng sa tharollo ya nako e telele bakeng sa sebaka seo.

Setsi sena hase se thewa, se tla nka mosebetsi ona wa bohlokwa ka ha se tlaba le tsebo e hlokahalang ho buisana ka ditumellano pakeng tsa naha ya rona le Zimbabwe ha se ntse se bokella ditjhelete, moralo le ho aha tharollo ya nako e tele molemong wa setjhaba sa Musina ho se motho ya sallang morao.

Ke ka hona re tshwanetseng re kgethe ANC.




Modulasetulo ya hlomphehang, Tshwane porofensing ya Gauteng, e etelletsweng pele ke DA, ho kena dipakeng ha Matona ho tla fana ka tshehetso ho sebetsana le maemo a tshohanyetso, metsi le tsamaiso ya dikgwerekgwere haholo-holo ka ha e ama sebaka sa Hammanskraal.



Boitshukunyetso bona bo batla bo etsa bonnete ba hore sebaka sa ho hlwekisa metsi a ditshila sa Rooiwal se a sebetsa le hore disebediswa tsa ho hlwekisa metsi tsa Temba di ya ntjhafatswa mohlomphehi Mohlala, ebile di ya matlafatswa le ho hlokomelwa hore di kgone ho fana ka metsi ho metse e haufi le Hammanskraal.



Lefapha le Metsi le Bohlweki le toropo ya Tshwane ha ba na bokgoni, ba bokella tjhelete bakeng sa merero ena mme lekala lena le tla bapala karolo ya bohlokwa ho fumaneng ditjhelete

tse hlokahang ho tsepamisa maikutlo dibakeng tsa mahaeng le ho sebedisa metsi a ka tlase ho lefatshe.


Porojeke ya metsi ya Mzimvubu e ka Kapa Botjhabela, e ka ba le bokgoni ba ho fana ka metsi ho malapa a kabang milione ha e se e phethilwe. Ke engwe ya diporojeke tse bohlokwa tse lekala le lokelang ho di ela hloko ... [Kena hanong.] ...





Ms M S KHAWULA: Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon Matuba. Could you please take your seat. What is your point of order, Mme Khawula?





Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga, hhayi kabi, angilwi. Kulungile njengoba ekhuluma ulwimi lwethu kulezi eziyishumi nanye.

Singalana lapha ngiyatoboza akutobozeki angizwa nokuthi uthini.



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: No, this is abusive. What is the Rule you are standing on in the first place, wena [you]?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula, I have been informed that the interpretation is coming through, perfectly. Please proceed, hon Matuba.




Mof M M MATUBA: Kgaello ya ditjhelete e diehisitse morero ona ka dilemo tse mmalwa empa re dumela hore setsi se tla be se le boemong bo botle ba ho fumana tjhelete e jwalo bakeng sa morero. Masepala wa Setereke wa Amathole e le masepala wa mahaeng Kapa Botjhabela, haufinyana tjena o nkile qeto ya ho sebetsana le diphephetso tsa ona tsa metsi ka ho kenya ditshebetsong porojeke ya dimilione tse nne felwana hlano, (R4,5 million) ya ho kotula phepelo ya metsi mawatleng bakeng sa ditjhaba tse neng di hloka menyetla.



Masepala ka bo ona, o keke wa hlola o ba boemong ba ho bokella tjhelete e jwalo. Re tshepa hore lekala le tla thusa masepala tabeng eo. Matlafatso ya basadi, batjha le batho ba sa itekanelang e lokela ho ba tsona tse tlang pele bakeng sa mosebetsi le tshebediso ya ditjhelete tsa setjhaba ya setsi.

Ditho tse kgabane, ha re ka foswa ke ho bua ka matlafatso ya basadi, batjha le batho ba sa itekanelang, re tla be re fositse ka ha lebona ba hloka menyetla. Re boetse re lakatsa ho ipiletsa ho Letona la Metsi le Bohlweki ho etsa bonnete ba hore boto ya ditho tsa lekala le bontsha dihlopha tse tlokotsing setjhabeng sa haborona.



Re boetse re kopa hore setsi sena hase se thehilwe, se bule menyetla ho basadi le batjha ba tswang ditjhabeng le bana hore ba kgone ho ba le phihlello ya mesebetsi, thuso ya ditjhelete, thupello le dithuto. Sa rona jwalo ka ANC ke ho sireletsa dikatleho tsa demokerasi tse tsepaletsang morero ya diphetoho tsa mmuso o etelletsweng pel eke ANC ho fumana bophelo bo betere bakeng sa batho bohle ba rona ba Afrika Borwa.


Ke santsane ke kgwehla MaAfrika Borwa ho ya dikgethong ka la


29 Mmesa mme ba kgethe ANC dipampiring tse tharo tsa ho kgetha hobane ke ona mokgatlo o tlo ba ntshetsa pele. Re a leboha.


Mr S M JAFTA: Hon House Chairperson, the aim of the Bill is to establish the Water Resource Infrastructure Agency. In terms of the Bill the agency will be responsible for the acquisition, disposal, funding, maintenance, operation, management and secure funding of the national water resource

infrastructure. Dealing with the purpose of the National Water Act and the National Water Strategy, the Bill with the overarching theme is to advance both the social and economic needs of water users in developmental and sustainable manner. Transboundary water related matters which were previously under the cash strapped Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, TCTA, will now fall under the mandate of the agency.


The primordial purpose of the TCTA was to focus on the work of the Lesotho Highland Water Project. Its mandate increased overtime to include funding and acquisition of National Water Resource Infrastructure. The dissolution of the TCTA under the Bill follows successive years of poor financial controls, corruption and conservative posting of irregular and wasteful expenditure by this entity. This which on one occasion was embroiled in the payment of R12 million acid mine drainage contract to a supplier prior to the actual signing of the contract.



The new agency must also reflect the spirit of the National Water Strategy which is premised on the principles of equity, sustainability and environmental protection that underpin all national water and sanitation legislation and policies in South Africa.

In conferring with the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy and the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries, the agency will operate under the environmental portress by intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance. The AIC supports this Bill, hon House Chairperson. Thank you very much.



Mr N G MYBURGH: Hon House Chairperson, we cannot support this Bill. It constitutes yet another misguided attempt by the ANC to centralise key infrastructure in the hands of a few. The purpose of this Bill is the establishment of yet another fully state-owned enterprise, SOE, this time to administer, operate and fund all infrastructure related to national water resources.


It is an indisputable fact that all our state-owned enterprises under the ANC-led government have been an unqualified failure and continue to recover from the economy, not to mention the livelihoods of ordinary South Africans. The continued dysfunctionality of entities such as Eskom, SA Airways, SAA, Transnet, Telkom to mention but a few. Despite huge cash injections of billions of rand which surely disway any reasonable person from dumping the nation’s entire water infrastructure into yet another ANC-run SOE. The department

and the Minister have thus far been unable to furnish the country with a single credible argument of why the creation of another SOE with massive resources at their disposal will not slide down at the same slippery slope of corruption and mismanagement. Have no doubt, this new Bill will place the health and wellbeing of the entire nation at severe risk and is poised to inflict substantial harm not only to the agricultural sector but will further erode prospects for economic growth and jobs. Already the World Bank has identified water as one of the three biggest risks for doing business in this country.


Hon House Chairperson, South Africans can be forgiven for viewing the creation of this latest SOE with deep scepticism if not complete mistrust. For decades now we have witnessed the ANC raping ball at work. So, apart from our principled opposition to the creation of yet another SOE monster, we have two overriding concerns: Firstly, unchecked tutorial ministerial powers and second, little to know legislative oversight.



The Bill facilitates grouse political interference in operational matters and allows for unbridle political favouritism in the appointment of the entire board, the chair,

the deputy chairperson, the chief executive officer, CEO, and chief financial officer, CFO, and the whole lot. It is cadre deployment all over again. Clearly the board is simply the extension of the Minister, in fact a ministerial subcommittee dressed up as a board fully subservient to the Luthuli House and destined to drown in a quagmire, corruption, nepotism and mismanagement.


Importantly, at committee stage fellow hon members, all reasonable proposals aimed at ensuring the establishment of a truly capable and independent agency board or suggestions to improve parliamentary oversight ball simply smacked down by the arrogance of ANC apparatchiks hellbent of scoring own goals in extra time. And last, this Bill will not instil or attract investment because it simply confirms the government’s love affair with failure. Nor will this Bill improve the water delivery or secure infrastructure, it will hasten its demise.



This Bill will certainly not entice the private sector to get involved, instead it will put the fear of Gordhan in them. It is simply put, hon members, the last kick of a dying donkey. I thank you.

Ms G K TSEKE: Thank you very much, House Chair and good day hon Members of Parliament. Hon members, the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan has indicated that our country is facing a projected 17% water deficit by the year 2030. This will be exacerbated by climate change. South Africa is a water scarce country, and the National Development Plan highlights the impact that climate change has in reducing our food production, thereby threatening the progressive realization of section 27(1)(b) of the national Constitution, which says “the right to have access to sufficient food and water”.


In line with the NDP goals and commitments made in our 2019 ANC national election manifesto, the ANC reiterates the importance of maintaining the current water infrastructure and the expansion of water access for all South Africans. The introduction of the National Water Resources Infrastructure Agency is the realization of the goals proposed by the National Planning Commission.



Hon members, as the ANC, we firmly believe that the creation of the National Water Resource Infrastructure Agency aims to enhance our ability to manage and conserve water resources, ensuring a steady supply of safe clean drinking water,

including in remote areas of our country. Thus, ensuring that no one is left behind.


Our water infrastructure project as stated by the President Cyril Ramaphosa during the Sustainable Infrastructure Development Symposium held few days ago at Century City in Cape Town, have traditionally been financed largely through the fiscus. The Development Bank of Southern Africa estimates that we will need about R1,2 trillion by 2030 to address our water and sanitation infrastructure backlogs. Through this agency, we will be able to raise finance and undertake large investment in water resources infrastructure using the substantial balance sheet of the agency.



In this regard, I would like to reiterate the call made by the President on social compacting to building and growing our infrastructure led development in line with the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP. The 2022 Census Report has highlighted the advancement made by our democratic government in terms of providing water and sanitation to historically underserved communities. It was reported - and this is a fact - that at least 82,4% of households in the country have access to pipe water either within their yards or inside their homes. Progress was also recorded on the number

of people who have access to flushing toilets, which currently stands at just above 70% in the country as of 2022.


The establishment of the agency will enhance central planning and co-ordination of all major water infrastructure projects. The agency will collaborate with the national department to plan major water and sanitation projects comprehensively, anticipating future demands and identifying optimal solutions. The quest to meet future water and sanitation demands needs to take cognisance of the impact of climate change, and those solutions must be climate resilient.



As the ANC, we have recognized that some of the persisting water and sanitation challenges emanate from the inability of local municipalities to sustainably operate, maintain and repair water and sanitation infrastructure. As is the case in the City of Tshwane, wherein the Minister or the national department has intervened, and you have acknowledged that hon Mohlala and members of the DA that the national government is a nation at work. We are working and we will provide services to our own people.



We believe that the agency will address these issues and use its capabilities to develop a national strategy to address the

persisting challenges and provide support to the ailing municipalities.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Hon members, order please. Hon Tseke, there is a point of order. Could you please take your seat. Hon members! Hon Mohlala! Hon Radebe, what’s your point of order?



Mr B A RADEBE: House Chairperson, I am rising on the fact that hon Mohlala and mam’Khawula are running a commentary. Actually drowning the speaker on the platform. They can hackle, but they cannot drown the speaker.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, that point of order is sustained. Please just control your noise levels.



AN HON MEMBER: Hon Grace was doing the same thing when ... [Inaudible.] ... was speaking.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Just control your noise levels please. Hon Tseke, please continue.



Ms G K TSEKE: Thank you very much hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula! [Interjections.]


AN HON MEMBER: The speaker was doing the same thing.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula! What’s your point of order, hon Khawula? Hon Tseke, could you please take your seat again.




Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngiyaxolisa. Singakwenza konke niyezwa. Mina ngingakuthatha manje ngithi hamba uyobona. Awekho amanzi.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Khawula?




Asizelanga ukuzoqamba amanga. [Ubuwelewele.] Awekho amanzi!





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): That is not a point of order, hon Khawula.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Hhayi, ukhuluma into engekho, awekho amanzi. Awekho amanzi!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula, that is not a point of order.




Kulungile hlala phansi.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Hon Khawula, I am giving you a warning mama. Please do not behave that way. No, please. Sit down. Take your seat.




Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyaxolisa, kubuhlungu kimina. Nina anilwazi usizi esiphuma kulona.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula, that’s not the way to go about it. That is totally unacceptable. Hon Mohlala, what’s your point of order?

Ms M R MOHLALA: No, Chairperson. The statement provided by hon Tseke is misleading that 82% of ... [Inaudible.] ... have water.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mohlala, that’s not a point of order.



Ms M R MOHLALA: ... are dry as we are speaking now. There is no water. People are suffering. There is no water.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mohlala, I will request you to leave the House. You will be removed from the House. If you continue behaving the way you do, you will be removed from the House. You cannot just disturb the flow of the debate unnecessarily. All members of different parties have got opportunities to state their cases. Including that of the EFF. So please don’t do that. You may proceed, hon Tseke.



Ms G K TSEKE: Thank you very much, House Chair. I think the census report must be circulated to other members of this House because what I’m reading is what the census has captured. It’s the report from census. As members of the ANC, we made our inputs in the portfolio committee without resorting to much slinging or disruptive behaviour. We

rejected clause 5 of the Principal Act in order to align it with the existing legislation. Additionally, we ensured that the Minister remains the sole shareholder as the agency is established as a fully state-owned company and we provided this for this in chapter 2 under clause 3 of the Bill. The Bill will ensure the attraction of board members with the requisite skills and capacity and provision ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Tseke, sorry. The hand of hon Zulu is up. Could you please take your seat. Hon Zulu! Obviously she has withdrawn. Maybe she wanted to comment on what happened. Hon Tseke, you may proceed.



Ms G K TSEKE: The Bill will ensure the attraction of board members with the requisite skills and capacity, a provision thoroughly addressed in the Bill. Hon members and hon Chair, as the oldest liberation movement of the African continent, once bitten, twice shy. And in so doing, we take pride as being the first political party to acknowledge our challenges and errors openly, honestly and courageously in driving our efforts to improve the lives of our citizens.



Unlike the DA, our concern has never been about a few, but the many South Africans in our country. With their moonshot to

ecstasy and feel-good exercise, the DA and fake friends are eager to leave many South Africans - as they are doing in the City of Cape Town and Tshwane - lingering on the fringes of property and despair. As young people would say, the DA is ghosting our people in the City of Cape Town.



The rejection of this Bill is evidence of the total neglect and disregard for initiatives aimed at improving the lives of our people. Empirical evidence demonstrates to us that for a country seeking to transform and develop, it must utilize state-owned entities to drive such development. We remain firm and undeterred in the progressive realization of the developmental state agenda and our national democratic revolution. The ANC supports this Bill.



The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: House Chair, firstly, I would want to express my appreciation to the portfolio committee led by the chair for the work that they did, going around consulting. I must say that they came up with a lot of useful views as expressed today and we endorse all of them.

Thank you very much, chair and the portfolio.




The agency is really going to make a lot of improvement on the water resource side, there’s no doubt of that. Including the

added ... [Inaudible.] ... on raising funds to do this. ... [Inaudible.] ... is already doing so. I don’t know where it comes from that there should be doubts. You look at Lesotho Highlands Water Project. This is a R40 billion project. Sixty percent thereof is raised from the private sector. It’s work that they are already doing, and we appreciate that. Whether it is done by them or done by the department directly, it’s not an issue. The issue is that we need funding for that, and we prefer to do it via the new agency.


It really represents a good future for the country as a whole. Secondly, I do want to assure hon members in the House, especially hon member Mohlala, that there’s no way people of

... what we’re talking about in Giyani is we are increasing reliability of supply of water. We are increasing the quality of water. We are covering everybody with the project that is there. But people do have water, but at different levels affected by this. In Giyani, they can’t survive without water. They can’t. They would have been dead. I then want to say that we are shifting ... [Interjections.] ... That our attention is on services of course. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]



Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).





Ms C N NDABA: Hon House Chair, hon members, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here ...




... bahlali baseMzansi ...






... good day.




I hereby present the report on filling in vacancies for the Commission for Gender Equality by the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities.



Gender equality is one of the key principles of South Africa’s Constitution, 1996, which prohibits unfair discrimination based on gender.

The Commission for Gender Equality was established in terms of Chapter 9 of the Constitution as a body to combat gender inequality.


The vision of the Commission for Gender Equality is a society free from all forms of gender oppression and inequality. The commission aims to transform society by exposing and investigating gender discrimination in laws, policies and practices, advocating for changes in patriarchal attitudes and gender stereotypes ... [Interjections.]




Hhayi bangibangela umsindo abalingani bakho.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ndaba, please do not converse with members on the platform.



Ms C N NDABA: The commission aims to transform society by exposing and investigating gender discrimination in laws, policies and practices, advocating for changes in patriarchal attitudes and gender stereotypes, and instilling respect for women’s rights as human rights.

Despite the existence of law and policy to combat gender discrimination and inequality, and discrimination is still a reality for large portions of South African society, particularly women, who face an onslaught of gender discrimination in public and private sector spaces.



The Commission for Gender Equality has a very important role to play in helping us to realise a society free from all forms of gender oppression and inequality.


It is imperative that the Commission for Gender Equality be adequately resourced, both in terms of financial and human resources.



The Commission for Gender Equality Act, as amended in 2013, assigns to the National Assembly the responsibility for addressing Commissioners’ vacancies.



This process was recently concluded by the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, and we report as follows:



The Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, in a meeting on 7 December 2023, was informed of

a request by the Office of the Speaker of the National Assembly to initiate of a process in filling in vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality.


The committee was requested to fill six vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality: four vacancies of the Commissioners whose term ends on 31 July 2024, one on 31 March 2024 and another on 31 May 2024.



The committee adopted a committee programme, they drafted the advertisement and the online application form on 7 December 2023. Advertisements were placed on 22 December 2023 on various media platforms, namely, print and electronic, with a closing date for 7 February 2024.


It indicated that the portfolio committee, as amended by the Commission for Gender Equality Act, 2013, invited member of the public and organisations to nominate suitable candidates for appointment to serve in the Commission for Gender Equality as Commissioners.


A set of qualifying criteria based on the legislative framework as stipulated in section 193 of the Constitution and

section 3 of the Commission for Gender Equality Act, Act 39 of 1996.


The criteria ... I’m not going to go through the criteria and the advert, hon members, because it’s there in our report.



I will go straight to what the committee has recommended.



Having taken into consideration the constitutional imperatives and the Commission for Gender Equality Act, the committee agreed that motivation, technical knowledge, strategic leadership [Time expired]





Ngabe imizuzu emihlanu isiphelile na?




USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Yebo ma. Siyabonga.




Ms C N NDABA: Okay. We request that the House adopts the candidates that we have recommended to the House and the recommendations. Thank you very much.



Declarations of vote:

Ms N K SHARIF: House Chair, as mentioned, the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities has the mandate to identify and recommend candidates to fill six vacancies within the Commission for Gender Equality as some of the current Commissioner terms come to an end between 31 March and 31 July 2024.



It must be noted that the portfolio committee worked tirelessly to ensure that the process of identifying the best possible candidates were done.


The individual scores of the interviews by the committee was surprisingly unanimous and this, perhaps, points to the type of talent and expertise we were presented with.



The eight candidates recommended to the President are the best of the pool and perform to the best of their ability. There is a diverse range of skills, age, gender and expertise that should be a great addition to the current Commission for Gender Equality Commissioners.



The DA has continued to raise the issue around public participation and maintains that more effective ways of ensuring proper public participation must take place.

The low number of applicants and in some instances no applications at all in provinces like the Northern Cape is very concerning. Parliament must do better in reaching as many people as possible.


It is important to state that the Commission for Gender Equality has a lot of work that it still needs to do. Yes, they have released many reports that have attempted to hold the government accountable, such as the reports on forced sterilisations, teenage pregnancy, the gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, emergency response action plan, the state of shelters and the bi-annual SA Police Service, SAPS, reports, to mention a few.



These reports have exposed the lack of services, lack of access to resources and often times a scathing report of the failure of government.



If you go through all of these reports you will find a recurring theme, the lack of holding government departments directly accountable.

Departments often do not provide the required information or simply do not participate in the investigations and leave the Commission for Gender Equality on blue tick, on red.


This is wholly unacceptable and a clear indication that many government departments do not take the Commission for Gender Equality seriously as a Chapter 9 Institution.


This is why as the DA we welcome the process of ensuring the Commission for Gender Equality has the legal standing to perform duties of a legal clinic and will have the mandate as an independent Chapter 9 Institution to litigate against the state and give its recommendations more teeth.



The Commissioners who will be appointed by the President to fill the vacancies must ensure that they go to the Commission for Gender Equality ready to hit the ground running.


The portfolio committee has worked to iron out the many issues within the Commission for Gender Equality, however, there’s a lot of work that still needs to be done to realise gender equality in this country.

These Commissioners must do more around oversight of GBVF frontline institutions. They must do more work in the inclusion of members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer/questioning, asexual, LGBTIQA+, community and fight against discrimination and hate crime.



The Commission for Gender Equality must do more work in realising that gender equality is not limited to only women, but that many people are facing harm, inequality and oppression.



The message to the Commission for Gender Equality and its Commissioners is that, if you are being appointed you have to ensure that there’s gender equality and ensure that government is doing what it needs to do to realise gender equality.



This path requires you to be selfless, to be empathetic and to be fair. Justice and equality are not values that we can afford to be taking for granted, it is hard fought and must be protected.


The Commission for Gender Equality plays a massive role, not only in our democracy but for the people in South Africa.

Good luck to all of the candidates and if you do get appointed, do your best and remember you could be the last line of defence for many vulnerable people in this country.


The DA agrees to this report. I thank you, House Chair.






Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, ngibingelele abahlonishwa ngaphakathi eNdlini, namakhosi ami, neSilo sami, nomongameli wami ozoba umongameli kusasa, siyikomidi lomsebenzi we- Commission for Gender Equality, CGE, senze isiqinisekiso ukuthi sihlala phansi, siyabheka ukuthi abantu abazogcwalisa lezi zikhala abantu abazoqinisekisa ukuthi bayawenza umsebenzi wabantu abahluphekile phansi abangazi ngamalungelo abo ikakhulukazi emakhaya, abakhubazekile, abesifazane nabesilisa.



Ngoba kunenkinga la yokuthi kunabantu abagcina bengawazi amalungelo abo uthole ukuthi bayahlukumezeka kulokho kuthiwa ababekezele, bayaboshwa kodwa amacala ayahlala ezinkantolo awaqulwa. Yila esithe khona ku-CGE sithe uma sigcwalisa senze isiqinisekiso sokuthi sizothola abantu abazohamba babhekelele emakhaya, emalokishini njalo njalo. Sibe nawo lawo magama okugcwalisa ayisithupha kodwa sathi kulesi sithupha asongeze ngamabili ukuze senzele ukuthi uma kukhona mhlawumbe okuthiwa

uNkulunkulu uyamkhumbula sazi ukuthi ukhona la. Engikuthandile ukuthi sisebenzisene ngokukhulu ukubambisana siyikomidi elibheke umsebenzi othile. Bese kwabakhona ababili ababevele bekhona nabo bezofuna ukuzoshaya isidudla, ibuya ngamanye amazwi. Sazama ukubabuza ngoba asibavalelanga ngaphandle sathi, uma wena ungabuyela la yini ongasitshela yona ukuthi uyenzile ngalesi sikhathi sakho ukhona? Okwesibili, yini wena ozibophezela ngayo ukuthi manje ngehlulekile la kodwa ngizolungisa la? Bahlulekile ukusitshela kanye nokuphendula imibuzo. Sathi, kulungile, nihambe kahle, buyelani eceleni.



Ngoba lo mnyango ubalulekile kakhulu ekugcineni izinkantolo zisebenza ngendlela ngoba ezinkantolo kunamacala amaningi okudlwengulwa enzakalayo kodwa uthole ukuthi kulawo macala wonke avimbelekile ezinkantolo. Uyabona, Sihlalo, ngoba ngilana, ngibuhlungu ngoba kukhona izinto ongenza amahlaya ngazo kukhona ezingeke senza amahlaya ngazo. Uyabona njengoba abantu besifazane beqhubeka befa yingoba izinkanto kanye nezinkantolo eziphakeme azifuni ukusebenza. Akekho noyedwa enike nezwa ukuthi uboshiwe nogcina ngokuzwa kushiwo. Njengoba kuyimanje ngikhuluma nani ukuthi kukhona le nkosazane ekade ingudokotela ebulewe yafakwa ebhuthini. Kukhombisa khona ukuthi izinkantolo zala eNingizimu Afika ziyahluleka. Yingakho lo mnyango kufanele ube khona.

Yingakho abantu bala eNingizimu Afrika kumele bazi ukuthi kukhona lento okuthiwa i-Commission for Gender Equality efanele imele wonke umuntu. Nabantu besilisa bayadlwengulwa. Nabantu besifazane bayakwazi ukubulala kodwa manje ngokuthi laba bantu besilisa bona bayasaba ukuya ezinkantolo ngenxa yokuthi uzothi uma efika esteshini samaphoyisa abuyiselwe emuva. Ngaphandle kokuhlekwa bazothi wena hamba niyoxoxisana. Yila ugcina khona ubona umuntu wesilisa ethatha isibhamu ebulala unkosikazi, abulale izingane, ethi akuvele kuphela konke ngenxa yokuthi yena akabhekeleliwe.



Yingakhoke ngithi mina, kubalulekile ukuthi uma laba abazongena la, naba sibaphethe, ukuthi angazi noma kuwumthetho yini ukuthi ngibabize ngoba bengizobabiza ngamagama siqinisekise ukuthi bahambela yonke indawo. Ngo-29 May, votelani i-EFF. Ziyekeni lezi zigebengu ezintshontsha imali.

Amasela lawa ... [Akuzwakali.] ... izingubo zokulala nezikhwama. [Kwaphela isikhathi.]


Ms M D HLENGWA: Chairperson, ...






... mhlawumbe ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members!





Qhubeka ...






... hon Hlengwa.



Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you ...





 ... baba. ... ngingakaqali angikhumbule umphefumulo kaMam’Mkhize uZamambo, udokotela, mina ngibuye ngibe kwezempilo ...




 ... may her soul rest in peace. Amen. It is with great sadness that we have noted over the years how challenges faced by women are often regarded as less important or of no importance at all. We see how our women are murdered daily for simply daring to walk outside or disagreeing with a partner.

We hear and follow the stories of how our women and girls are kidnapped and never found in this country. We have seen the

worst of things happen to our women and children, leading us to protest and march, but perpetrators still face minimal to no consequences.


An institute such as the Commission for Gender Equality is of utmost importance. It is within mind that the IFP wishes to reiterate the report's recommendation to strengthen the independence of the CGE and its reach by revising the funding of the Chapter 9 institution. We also wish to commend the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities for the dedication shown to determine the new commissioners before the end of March.





Sibashayela ihlombe.





The process followed prioritised the principles of transparency and enabled the committee to work freely and fairly. It was a pleasure to form part of selecting the new commissioners as this indicated the commitment of this House to prioritising and addressing the challenges faced by South African women.


Siyacela ukuthi sengathi lo mnyango ungathiwa xaxa ngemali ukuze laba bantwana babantu abangene la ngokuzinikela bayithole basebenze kahle.





The IFP accepts the report. I thank you.



Ms T BREEDT: House Chair, the CGE is a constitutional entity, relied upon to strengthen constitutional democracy. Its mission is to promote, protect, monitor and evaluate gender equality through research, public education, policy development, legislative initiatives, effective monitoring and litigation. The committee was requested to fill six vacancies that will shortly be present at the CGE, as four commissioners’ terms come to an end on 31 July 2024 whilst one ends on 31 March 2024 and another on 31 May of this year.



There were quite a number of applicants and almost as many public inputs as the committee. The process seems to have been well-run with inputs from all parties being acknowledged and indulged. This ensures a true democratic process, and there seems to not have been any controversial candidates at play, this time round. There were exceptionally strong candidates

that threw their hats into the ring and decisions were, apparently, not easy. Many of the eventual candidates are from the NGO space, ground activists, and academics, all primarily working in areas of gender-based violence, GBV, as well as women’s and children’s rights.



Amongst the candidates are a current commissioner, lawyers, and directors of NGOs, to name but a few. Qualifications range from a variety of degrees at many reputable universities around the world. What is, however, important is that this commission needs to be an unbiased organisation that is not influenced by prejudice or connection. The greater the pool to choose from, the better this eventuality will be. This also minimises the chance of politically connected candidates to eventually take up positions.



In a country that has largely not addressed the qualms or taken the necessary steps to combat gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, an entity such as the CGE plays a very important role in keeping people and government accountable. It is, however, still my fear, as with everything else in South Africa, that personal gain and power will speak louder than the needs of the people. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP support this report and we wish the candidate who will be appointed by the President well with the constitutional mandate of promoting gender equality and the protection, development, and attainment of gender equality. And it is against this background that the high levels of gender-based violence in our country and across the world must be considered. Far more needs to be done to protect women and children and we see many conflicts across the world. We see in Yemeni, hundreds of thousands of people are dying.

We see Sudan, hundreds of thousands of people dying there. We see Syria, many people are dying there as well, and women and children need to be protected.


And before hon Shaik Emam refers to the issue of Gaza, let us be reminded what the United Nations has said on the plight of women and children there. All women, Israeli women, Palestinian women as all others are entitled to life that has been safety and free from violence. The ACDP agrees with that. But it went further, the UN Women’s movement unequivocally condemned the brutal attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela) Hon Swart, there is a point of order. Could you please take your seat. Hon Mohatla, what’s your point of order?

Mr M A TSEKI: Can hon Swart answer question on how many women died under the ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Tseki, that is not a point of order. Please, take your seat. You may proceed, hon Swart.



Mr S N SWART: The UN Women movement, unequivocally condemned the brutal attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October 2023. The UN said it was alarmed. This is the United Nations that everyone quotes along by the numerous accounts of gender-based and sexual violence during those attacks. The UN has caught for all accounts of gender-based violence to be fully investigated, rapes, murders, the rapists that took place even of babies. Those must be investigated. That’s what the United Nations has said and prosecuted with the rights of the victims at the core.



The ACDP agrees with this that lets us treat all issues as with what is happening in Gaza as well as in Israel. Let us treat that with the same condemnation and not only condemn one side. The ACDP will support this report. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, Mr, Adv Swart, hon Swart, I don’t know why as honourable, you come and mislead this House. Not single evidence appeared confirming that anybody ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shaik, there is a point of order. Would you please take your seat. What’s the point of order, hon Swart?


Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the hon member is casting aspersion. I rise on Rule 85. He is casting aspersion and say I am not honourable person. And I ask you to rule in this regard. Thank you. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart, that point of order is sustained. Could you please withdraw that, hon Emam.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I didn’t say he is not honourable. I said, is it honourable.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Could you withdraw, hon member and continue.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But please withdraw first. Please, withdraw the comment as I heard it.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I withdraw if I did say that he is not honourable. I withdraw.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Unconditionally.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I withdraw.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Emam?




Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: You see, these puppets ....




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): When you withdraw, you must withdraw unconditionally without any if. Could you please withdraw.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I withdraw.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. You may proceed.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: These puppets of Israeli come here and talk about issues to do with women and children when it is estimated by the same United Nations that hon so-called hon Swart is talking about 75 000 people that were affected,

25 000 of whom are women and children that were massacred.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Emam, you cannot say to a member, he is a so-called hon member. Please. Withdraw that.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, he is not a so-called, he is honourable. Now let’s start of by first, they want to talk about women and children. But 25 000, the very same United Nations he is talking about has just said 25 000 women and children have been massacred. And this hon John Steenhuisen is saying very loud and clearly one-man genocide is another man’s freedom.



So, let me say to all of you in South Africa and particularly the Western Cape genocide is coming to the Western Cape and is coming to South Africa if you support the DA or the ... [Inaudible] ... or the IFP ... [Interjections.] ... puppets of the west ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): There is a point of order. Order, hon members. Hon members, please lower your voices. Hon Swart, what is your point of order.



Lungu elihloniphekile uKhawula kahle, sicela ukulalela.





Hon Swart, what is your point of order.




Mr S N SWART: I rise on a point of order. It is not permissible for the hon member to refer to unparliamentary language to call for a genocide in the Western Cape. That’s hate speech in terms of constitutional section 16. That’s hate speech as the puppet ... May I just conclude, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Swart.


Mr S N SWART: It is the propaganda ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Emam? Hon Swart, he did not call for it.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Yes, sir.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): He mentioned it. He did not call for it. Calling for it is something else. The point of order is not sustained. Order, hon members. Can I make a request to you, hon Emam. The issue of Palestine is a very emotional issue. So, let us be weary on what kind of words we use as we debate on such issues and mentioning issues of that nature. So, please.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, it sounds like we have a hearing problem amongst some of our hon members in this House because they want to hear what they want to hear. But very clearly, let me say these if you continue supporting ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, order, hon members.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... the ACDP, you continue supporting the IFP and the FF Plus, then the Western Cape will end up into a genocide because what they are doing in Palestine they will do the same thing.

So, I am saying to you, stay away from these political parties who sells their souls for 30 silver coins. Now, on the matter before the House ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.




Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: On the matter before the House, we support the recommendation that have been made. Indeed, this Gender Commission has serious challenges and there is no doubt about it that in order to put this House in order ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shaik, there is a point of order. Hon Radebe, what is the point of order.



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I am raising on Rule 84. The hon member Mileham cannot call another member a little man. He is a member. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Radebe. Hon Mileham that’s out of order. Its unparliamentary. Please withdraw that.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Sorry House Chair, can I ask, what is unparliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You cannot refer to a member as you disgusting little man. Is desperation. It cannot be accepted. Would you please withdraw that.


Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I withdraw that he is disgusting.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mileham? Hon Mileham, could you please withdraw without any ... Just withdraw it. Just withdraw the words.


Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, I withdraw on your orders.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you. Hon, please go ahead.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: This is what happens when racism is burdening in your genes. This is how you conduct yourselves. It comes out even if you want to hide it. No matter how much you try to hide it, it comes out because is there. Is part of the human. But be that it may, Chairperson, yes, indeed, we will support the recommendation that has been made here indeed and despite the various concerns that have been raised. And I think one of the concerns is the number of applicants and things like lack of interests. I think these are some of the

issues that we need to do. But the issue of women, children and those with disabilities are issues in our country with high levels of gender-based violence, teenage pregnancy, drug, and substance abuse, 91 000 children giving birth to children last year. Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can I make a humble request. We all appreciate a lively House, but it all depends on how we do it. So, I am kindly requesting to refrain from a rowdy situation like this we are having now.

What is your point of order, hon member.




Ms D KOHLER: So, as the hon member who cast he said the foulest thing to our member here, I would ask you to deal with that and not repeating ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did not hear him, but I will come back to you with that.


Ms D KOHLER: I will appreciate, you have members here ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will address it once I heard it over.

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you very much.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much.


Mr S M JAFTA: The Commission for Gender Equality performs an important role in our constitutional democracy. That is why as the AIC will believe it must be led by women and men of great competence, experience and commitment to gender equality. As the AIC we support the candidates who have been recommended by the committee, especially those candidates who will enrich the work of the commission in order to reach its great heights. I thank you, hon Chairperson.




Moh C M PHIRI: Modulasetulo, pele ke tamiia Ntlo le setihaba sa Afrika Borwa ka kakaretio, ke rata gore re le Komiti ya Photefolio ya Basadi, Bana le Batho bao ba sa Itekanelago, gape re le mokgatlo wa badimo le batho, ga re kwane le dipiheiamare goba dilo tieo di sego botse mo setihabeng. Ke be ke rata gore bjalo ka mokgatlo re lebiie mahloko go ba lelapa la Ngaka Mkhize, re boe gape re re mahloko go tieo di diregilego go mongwaledi wa Mongwaledipharephare wa ANC, e lego Kelly Mathatha. Re re a meoya ya bona e robale ka khutio.

Re le mokgatlo wa badimo le batho gammogo le diboledi tieo di fetilego goba maloko a mangwe ao e lego karolo ya komiti ya rena, re kwane ka batho bao ba latelago. Ke kweiiia gore Ntlo, gammogo le MaAfrika Borwa, ba na le tokelo ya go tseba gore re iiiinya bomang. Ke re go setihaba, mokgopedi wa mathomo woo re mo iiiinyago go Mopresidente, ka ge rena re na le taelo ya gore re iie maina, ke Moh Seehaam Samaai, a begwe lebaka le letelele. Mokgopedi ya bobedi, Mulalo Grace Nemataheni ...




 ... full time, Mr Mfundo Nomvungu, full time. Candidate 4 is Yanga Malotana, full time, candidate number 5 is H R H Princess Royale Eurika Mogane, part time, candidate number 6 is Mr Kamohelo Rodney Teele, full time, candidate number is Dr Marion LynnStevens, full time, candidate number 8 is Dr Charnell Ruby Naidu, part time.





Le tla gopola gore dikgoba tieo di lego gona ke tie di selelago fela, empa re iiiinya ba seswai go Mopresidente. Se se ra gore Mopresidente o tla kgona go tiea ba tshela bao a bonago gore ke ba maleba ka gare ga ba seswai.




The Commission for Gender Equality, CGE, has been a critical entity in championing the transformation agenda for nearly three decades. Its impact is tangible and evident in the legislation and policy changes. It has catalysed through submission to Parliament, government and society. This submission has sought to rectify laws and that undermines gender equality principles. With the presence across all nine provinces, the commission has breached the gap between rural and urban communities, offering legal counsel, educating citizens about their rights and fostering awareness.



Yet amidst this accomplishment, the CGE faces formidable challenges, particularly in capacity and financial resources, hindering its outreach to remote rural areas across vast provinces. Internal handles have also risen, but the recent appointment of commissioners and filling of the key vacancy signal a potential for enhanced service delivery and governance. Despite its critical mandate, the CGE operates on a minimal budget, underscoring the needs for adequate resources. Gender discrimination affects individuals across diverse spectrum of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, culture, socioeconomic status and political affiliation. Such Chapter 9 institutions like the CGE must receive ample human and financial support to advance gender

equality and women empowerment effectively.





Ka ge ke bone Tona ya tia Matlotlo, ke tshepha gore o a a tiea malebiia ao. O a kwa gore dihlongwa tia Karolo ya 9 di swanetie di fiwe tihelete ye ntiinyana.




There is no overlooking the fact that an institution of such significance, tasked with such pivotal responsibility, demand steadfast, trustworthy and altruistic leadership to effectively advance its mandate and its vision. The ANC assert that the committee has concluded or conducted a thorough process in selecting the most suitable individuals to recommend for leadership role within the commission. The selection process was rigorous, aiming to ensure that only the most qualified candidates were put forward to steer the organisation forward. The CGE has advanced the empowerment of women on matters relating to the equality in the workplace, in women representation like us as we are Members of Parliament in government and different entities, HIV/Aids and gender- based violence and femicide, land reform and economic empowerment.

Thirty years in democracy, a lot have been achieved, even though the opposition and others think we have not achieved a lot. But we are proud to say that these are the best men and women that we have recommended to the President. And we are going to make sure that with our principle or our recommendation to the President that the CGE receives the best and the most capable women and men who must make sure that we take forward the struggle of gender equality.




Modulasetulo, e re ke go kgopele gore ka ge ke thomile ka dipiheiamare le polelo yeo e sego gabotse ka Afrika Borwa ka bophara, o kgopele Ntlo re inamiie difahlego goba re rapele gore meoya ya bana ba rena bao ba tsamailego e se nako – bao ba ahlotiwego ke batho, gore meoya ya bona e robale ka khutio. O tla e bea ka Sejahlapi gore ...





 ... we should pay condolences to the families as a House. Thank you, House Chair.


Question put: That the nominations of Ms S Samaai (full-time commissioner), Ms M G Nemathaheni (full-time commissioner), Mr M Nomvungu (full-time commissioner), Ms Y Malotana, Princess R

E Mogane (part-time commissioner), Mr K R Teele (full-time commissioner), Dr M L Stevens (full-time commissioner) and Dr C R Naidu (full-time commissioner) for appointment to the Commission for Gender Equality be approved.


House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela announced that the Speaker had determined that, in accordance with the Rules, a manual voting procedure would be used and that the whips would conduct a headcount of members in the chamber and on the virtual platform for the purpose of ascertaining quorum and voting.



A quorum being present in terms of Rule 98(1), voting commenced.



AYES – 320: (ANC – 220; DA – 52; EFF – 31; IFP – 8; FF Plus –


6; ACDP – 2; AIC – 1). Nominations of Ms S Samaai (full-time commissioner), Ms M G Nemathaheni (full-time commissioner), Mr M Nomvungu (full-time commissioner), Ms Y Malotana, Princess R E Mogane (part-time commissioner), Mr K R Teele (full-time commissioner), Dr M L Stevens (full-time commissioner) and Dr C R Naidu (full-time commissioner) for appointment to the Commission for Gender Equality accordingly approved in accordance with section 193(5)(b)(ii) of the Constitution,





Business suspended at 13:22 and resumed at 14:24






There was no debate.




moved: That the Report be adopted.




Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).




Report accordingly adopted.







(Second Reading debate)




Mr N S Buthelezi: Hon House Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, ...




... izakamuzi zaseNingizimu Afrika, ...





 ... the ANC supports the Division of Revenue Bill. The people shall share in the country's wealth, so declared our people at the Congress of the People in 1955. That is what this Bill does. It distributes the nationally raised revenue among the three spheres of the government. A total of R2,136 trillion expenditure is projected in the budget, increasing to

R2,373 trillion in 2026-27. Noninterest allocation is R1,749 trillion.


This is shared as follows, 48,5% to the national, 41,8% to the provinces and 9,3% to local government. A combination of equitable share and conditional grants is used to address the deliberate underdevelopment of our country. Our country was invaded, and its indigenous people were deliberately underdeveloped by successive racist laws like the Group Areas Act, the Bantu Education Act, the Pass Laws, the Separate Amenities Act, the abominable Land Acts, and a battery of other apartheid laws aimed at keeping the owners of the country and its wealth at a state of perpetual hewers of wood and drawers of water. That is the mess that the democratic government, led by the ANC is dealing with.

I know some among us who happen to be beneficiaries of this injustice want us to believe that this never happened. The wounds of dispossession are there. today apartheid is ownerless. Today apartheid has got no beneficiaries. But we, the victims of that system, are there and this Bill is a continuation of the path we chose in 1994 to reverse the deleterious impact of 350 years of our country's misrule and the impact of the apartheid crime. This Bill is redistributive. Rural provinces and rural towns disproportionately receive more resources than urban provinces and metros. That's why we should spend neither strength nor effort in opposing cessation by stealth spearheaded by the DA.



The Western Cape, and particularly Cape Town, was developed by black people, who were paid slave wages for the comfort of the land invaders. Once their blood had been sucked, they were taken back and dumped in the Eastern Cape. Now, the attempt to secede must be stopped. They want to enjoy the proceeds of crime alone. You know, they see our people from the Eastern Cape as refugees in the Western Cape. We shall not allow the DA to achieve that. Section 41(a), (e) and (f) of the Constitution are very clear that we are a unitary state.

Section 199(1), again, is very clear that the police are a national competence.


Angazi nifuna ukwenzani amandla kaNdosi. Malungu ale Ndlu ngithi angiyigcizelele le ndaba ngoba uma i-DA singayivumela ukuthi ikwenze lokho, uHulumeni ngeke asakwazi ukuqoqa intela ezindaweni zalaba abadla izambane likapondo ukuze labo abantulayo nabahlwempu nabo bakwazi ukuhlomula ezithukuthukwini zoyise omkhulu nokhokho babo. Lutho, ngeke sikuvume lokho.




The Minister of Finance during his Medium-Term Budget announced cuts in certain items using certain criteria like underspending by certain programmes. This was an attempt to protect the fiscus in the light of the anticipated lower-than- expected revenue as a result of subdued economic growth, as a result of certain domestic and international factors.

Logistics challenges and load shedding, the COVID-19 pandemic, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, and now the belligerent activities of Israel in Gaza. All these things have a direct negative impact on our economy. If we do not manage the fiscus prudently, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, will take over our government and implement structural adjustment programmes, and that will be the end of our sovereignty.

It gives me great pleasure to share with you that some of these cuts have been reversed in the budget. As a result, R251,3 billion has been added to the budget of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.




Le mali yongeza kuleyo mali ezokhokhela izisebenzi zikaHulumeni. Lana sikhuluma ngabahlengikazi, odokotela, othisha, amaphoyisa nabanye. Sibonge sinconcose ukuthi uMongameli umhlonishwa u-Ramaphosa wamemezela ukuthi singu-ANC sazizwa izingane zethu esezingodokotela eziphasile uma zikhala zithi aziqashiwe ukuthi zonke zizoqashwa. SinguHulumeni oholwa u-ANC sikhombisa ukuthi izivumelwano esazenza nabasebenzi siyazihlonipha. Lokhu sikwenza o-DA no-FF Plus besigxeka besithuka bethi siyikhuphulelani imali yenu basebenzi kodwa uma ongxiwankulu abaphathi bezinkampani bezinikeza izizumbulu zezimali bathula du engathi abekho.




For instance, it is estimated that the CEOs of the five major banks earn about R150 000 per day. Whilst a bank teller won’t make that money in a year. Then you wonder why we are the most unequal society in the world. Perhaps this is the right time to deal with a myth propagated by those parties who are anti-

workers and pro-owners of capital. No matter how many times they repeat this lie it will remain a lie. They say the civil service is bloated. Nothing can be further from the truth. In 1994, we had one million public servants saving 34 million people, listen carefully, now we have a population of about

60 million saved by 1,2 million public servants. The population has nearly doubled, while the public servants have grown by only 20%. The wage bill has been stable since 2008, being 35% of the budget.




Asiyekeni ukuhubhuza amanga ngezisebenzi zikaHulumeni. Uthi uHulumeni kubasebenzi, noma isimo somnotho sisibi kangaka amalungelo abasebenzi siyohlala siwahlonipha njalo.





We reject with contempt the insinuation from the DA that workers are not deserving to be where they are. They are only there because of cadre deployment, whatever their definition. I hope the workers hear you loud and clear. The outcome of the Pretoria High Court, when it rejected the argument of the DA wanting the cadre deployment policy to be declared unconstitutional, laid bare the falsity of the argument. The Mail and Guardian concluded:

The DA itself suffered a knock after the Pretoria High Court rejected with costs its application to have ANC’s deployment policy declared unconstitutional.



Uyabona inkantolo ize ithi uzokhokhela izindleko ze-ANC ...





... giving a cost order against you ...






 ... ubokwazi ukuthi ithukuthele igane unwabu. Kwabanjalo ku- DA. Kwathiwa hamba uyoshona DA njengesipikili. Izinkantolo azizwani nemisangano.





Another very important thing about this budget is that it is pro-poor. It continues to provide a safety net to the victims of the crime against humanity, apartheid. Of the

R2,37 trillion total consolidated expenditure, a whopping R1,41 trillion is for the social wage. This means that this is the money which goes to education, health, human settlements, public transport and social grants. This is 60% of the total budget. This money ensures that our people get free education,

our children eat at school, they have access to free health care, and there are grants for the elderly, our children and the unemployed.



Sithi singuHulumeni ka-ANC, noma isimo somnotho sinje siyozama njalo ukuthi abantu bavikeleke ekuhluphekeni. Inhlupheko yethu thina siyindlu ensundu yaqala mhlazane kufika lawa madoda eyehamba ngemikhumbi emithathu i-Dromedaris, i-Goede Hoop ne- De Reijger. Bathe besuke beza nenqwaba yemithetho esibandlululayo futhi yokuthatha umnotho wethu.





The ANC is concerned about high unemployment rates, especially that of young people. The number of jobs created continues to increase, however, the rate of increase of the population is higher than that of new jobs being created, hence the unemployment rate that the country is facing. ANC is committed to dealing with this. This Division of Revenue Bill allocates R61,4 billion for employment programmes. The Presidential Employment Initiative has been hailed by young people as a very effective and progressive intervention by the President and the ANC. During the public hearings, young people have been unequivocal in supporting it and calling for its

continuation. At least 1,7 million people have benefited from it, hence we are allocating money for its continuation. The ANC heard you ...



... bantu abasha.





The ANC also calls upon the sustainability of private companies which are very important for job creation and revenue for the government. At the height of stress in companies during COVID-19, the government introduced the Temporary Employer/Employee Relief Scheme. A total of

R64 billion was used for this programme. There is no doubt that for us to be able to achieve our socioeconomic objectives and fiscal sustainability, the economy must grow and grow inclusively at a high rate to keep pace with the growing population. The more than R900 billion earmarked for infrastructure over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework is one such contribution by the government. This is important because it also attracts private sector money so that we can all contribute towards employment creation. More of this will be covered by my comrades coming after me. The ANC supports the 2024 Division of Revenue Bill. Thank you.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Hon Chair, I rise today with a sense of urgency and dismay as we deliberate on the 2024 Division of Revenue Bill. This will be the last Division of Revenue Amendment Bill in this Parliament and the numbers laid bare before us reveal a grim reality that the ANC has created for critical services that have been delivered by provincial and local government. Provinces and municipalities provide the essential services on which our citizens rely.



The Division of Bevenue Bill shows how recklessness and bad decision-making has a negative long run impact on the ability to pay for critical funding services. Direct national transfers to provinces are projected to increase at a rate woefully below inflation. We’re talking about a mere 3,8% annually, hardly enough to keep up with the price of rising costs of health care and education.


Health care inflation in particular, outstrips consumer inflation and therefore requires stronger investment. But the ANC is choosing its hobby horses such as the R30 000 millionaire managers in the public service ahead of quality health care. Let’s dissect these big figures further. The provincial equitable share, the lifeblood of provincial services is being slashed by billions. Nineteen billion rand

in one year, R20 billion the second year, R21 billion further down the line in three years.


Let’s not forget the conditional grants reduced by R6 billion, R9 billion and R11,8 billion over the medium term. This isn’t belt tightening, it is strangulation. But what’s the rationale behind these cuts? Simply, the state’s failed attempt at managing the Public Sector Wage Bill is now coming back to haunt us. Provinces last year were left to pick up the shattered pieces of this failed approach to the budgets, forced to make excruciating choices between keeping the lights on in hospitals, the doors open in schools or paying increases to civil servants.



To address the ongoing expenses associated with implementing the 2023 Public Service Wage Agreement, particularly within the education and health sectors, the 2024 budget earmarks an additional R105,5 billion over the ensuing three years for provinces. Nevertheless, this allocation falls short of fully funding the increases to the Wage Bill, forcing provinces to further choose, between paying for the services or paying for salaries. Even essentials for the poor, shelter are now facing cuts due to long-term financial mismanagement. Consider human settlements development and informal settlements upgrade

grants, lifelines for those living on the margins to get housing.


This Bill proposes substantial reductions of R1,5 billion and R1,2 billion respectively. It is in the front to all the promises the ANC has been making on the campaign trail about delivering houses to the poor, and it’s a betrayal of vulnerable citizens.



Over the last five years, this government has squandered multiple opportunities for reform, choosing instead to prioritise pet-projects over public services. Now faced with the consequences of their mismanagement, they expect the poor to foot the bill through savage cuts to essential services.

But the DA refuses to stand by idly and watch as the ANC drives our provinces and municipalities into further disrepair.



The upcoming election presents us with a chance to halt this reckless agenda. We cannot allow them to continue looting while our hospitals crumble and our schools suffer. This is the to rescue South Africa now. The stakes could not be higher. Our duty as the DA is clear, to fight tooth and nail against these draconian cuts, demand accountability from those

in power and to stand up for the people we were elected to serve.


To the ANC, this Bill sums up to five years of inaction and failure. It shows how corruption steals from the poor. It shows how every election promise made by the ANC is one they cannot fulfil. On 29 May, the citizens will choose, and this Bill is one of the reasons they will choose to eject the ANC. Thank you Chair.



Mr M MANYI: House Chair, firstly let me send greetings to the commander in chief, CIC and the incoming president of the Republic of South Africa. Let me also take this opportunity to say well done to all the officials, commissars and ground forces that have made our professional manifesto rallies a roaring success. We remain the only organisation that is proving that we are indeed ready to govern. Our manifesto is very clear when that.



House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Division of Revenue Bill, and we’ll explain why. We have placed on record that the EFF believes that the division of revenue falls short of concrete solutions to resolve the electricity crisis in South Africa that is threatening our economy. How can we give 9%

equitable share to local governments, and then think they’re being serious? Really now? It falls short of addressing the plight of the poor South Africans who depend on basic services such as clean water, effective public health care etc.


Minister your government has year-on-year proven to the poor South Africans that you really just don’t care. Many of our villages don’t have proper roads, water, clinics and don’t even have chronic medication. As we are all on the campaign trail, what exactly will be the excuses to the young people who have passed matric and could not find university or Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET placements? How do you look at them in the eye and say they must vote for a failing government that doesn’t care?



To be a woman in South Africa these days is one of the most terrifying things. Yet your government is failing to invest in proper and visible policing. As the EFF, a socialist organisation deeply committed to the well-being and empowerment of the working class and the marginalised communities, support the findings, observations and recommendations put forward by the Standing Committee on Appropriations regarding the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill.

However, we acknowledge that the committee’s recognition of the proposed additional allocations aimed at addressing critical issues such as energy crisis and the upcoming general elections, all those allocations are nowhere near enough. We emphasise that such allocations must be part of a broader strategy to fundamentally transform the socioeconomic landscape of South Africa in favour of the majority.


The proposed reduction of R400 million from the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs Community Work Programme is deeply concerning Minister. The failure to effectively manage contracts and implement programmes aimed at addressing unemployment perpetuates a cycle of poverty and inequality. The department must be held accountable for its shortcomings and take urgent steps to improve its performance to ensure the effective delivery of services to those in need.



While we recognise the importance of hosting international events such as Brics Summit and various other jamborees, we caution against excessive spending on public diplomacy and protocol services, especially when there are pressing domestic priorities such as job creation and poverty alleviation.

Similarly, while we support the allocation of funds to increase political party funding for the upcoming general

elections where will beat the ANC, we urge transparency and accountability in the utilisation of these resources to ensure a levelling of playing field for ... [Interjections.]


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, hon members, can we not drown the speaker. Order hon members.



Mr M MANYI: Similarly, while we support the allocation of funds to increase political party funding for the upcoming general elections, we urge transparency and accountability in the utilisation of these resources to ensure a levelling of playing field for all political parties and to prevent any undue influence on the electoral process. The principle of equitability should be carefully managed not to disadvantage the smaller parties. The committee’s recommendation for greater transparency and accountability in budgetary processes is commendable.



We echo the call for the Minister of Finance to provide more explanatory information on the rationale behind the adjustments the Appropriation Bills, to ensure public resources are utilised effectively and in the best interests of the people.

Furthermore, the Minister of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs in the Seventh Administration must provide a comprehensive evaluation report on the performance of the Community Work Programme and take proactive measures to prevent similar allocation reduction in the future.



As we conclude, we acknowledge the necessity of adopting this Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill to address immediate fiscal challenges although we reject it. We stress the importance of ensuring that budgetary decisions are guided by principles of social justice, equity and accountability. As the EFF, we remain committed to advocating for policies that prioritise the needs of the working class and the marginalised communities and will continue to hold the government accountable.



When we take over in the coming couple of months, people of South Africa will feel that a new government that has got purpose is now in charge. One of the first things that we’ll do is to get rid of this useless layer called provinces where people don’t know what to do with money. In North West, instead of using their money properly, they buy donkeys and carts.

In the Eastern Cape, instead of using the money properly, they are busy with some useless scooter ambulance project. The EFF will ensure that the proper equitable share is sent to the local government where it matters, where the rubber hits the road. So, people of South Africa don’t despair, the Red Sea is coming. Thank you.



The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): I am advised that hon Buthelezi is on the line, but I don’t know why he is not unmuting himself. Hon Buthelezi, are you on the line?


Mr E M BUTHELEZI: No, Chairperson. I am on the line and was unmuting myself and the message on the gadget was saying the host is not allowing me to participate. It is your fault there, not my fault.



The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Ok, you may proceed, sir.


Mr E M BUTHELEZI: You must apologise, Chair. Thank you very much.




Ngiyabonga kakhulu Sihlalo ohloniphekile namalungu onke eNdlu, ukhulume kahle oSokwalisa uSihlalo wekomidi uma ethula lo umbiko esikhumbuza ukuthi ezinye izinto eziqukethwe inkululeko yethu kwakuba umnotho wezwe kwabelane ngawo abantu abahlala kulo izwe. Yiqiniso futhi ukuthi nxa uma kwabiwa izimali ngokweMinyango eyahlukeneyo kuningi esikulindelayo njengezakhamuzi zezwe nokufanele bakutakule abantu bakithi abasobhukwini. Kodwa Sihlalo ishwa elikhona yileli esilaziyo sonke njengamalungu eNdlu elithi izinkece zonke zisuke zabiwe ngokweMinyango yonke ehlukene ayifinyeleli kubantu njengalokhu kuhlosiwe. Uhulumeni we-ANC akakwazi ukuziqhenya ngalokhu akwenzile kule minyaka engamashumi amabili okungenani esemandleni.




When we discuss the law on revenue distribution, we must place emphasis on critical points that have not been neglected. The prioritisation of local government in the distribution of revenue. It is therefore imperative that we recognise the pivotal role that local government play as champions of service delivery and community development. When local government does not receive its fair share of funding, it leads to frustration, which very often leads to unrest and protests. And our citizens do not understand the difference

between the roles and responsibilities of the various levels of government. The frustration resulting from the lack of resources for municipalities often manifests itself in destructive behaviour as communities take out their resentment on vital infrastructure and services, which ultimately sets the government back.



Therefore, to prevent this, it is high time that we acknowledge the interconnectedness of local municipalities with the daily lives of our people. They are responsible for essential services such as water, sanitation, roads and housing and services that directly affect or impact the quality of life for the majority of our people. Neglecting the funding needs of local government not only hampers their ability to fulfil their mandate, but also determines the fabric of our society.


Hon Chair, the purse is shrinking, our economy is still in a dire state and collection of revenue continues to decline.

It’s time that the government direct its effort where it’s most needed. It is often said that a new broom sweeps clean and as ...




... sonke sazi ukuthi Mhlaka 29 Meyi kuyobe kungena iqembu elisha lentando enhle yabantu okuyiqembu leNkatha. Sizimisele ke thina ukukhuculula yonke le nkinga ekhungethwe uhulumeni nesenihlulile nina qobo lwenu ukuba niyikhuculule ngoba yini vele anikwazi ukuyiguqula uma kuyini eniyigcolisileyo. Ngakho ke sinxusa abantu bakithi ukuthi bavotele iNkatha elizobasebenzela ngesiminya nelizobahlonipha lazi ukuthi zonke izimali ezabiwayo ngokweMinyango azimiselwe ukuhlumisa abathile nabangane babo kodwa ziqondene nelikusasa labo. Sithi lolu khetho esiya kulo abantu abazi ukuthi akulona lokukhetha uMongameli wezwe noma ubani osesikhundleni kodwa ngolwabo nekusasa labo nezingane zabo. Uma befuna ukwazi ukuthi isiphi isizathu sokuthi basivotele njengeNkatha wonke umuntu akaphumele emnyango okufaka Phakathi nani Malungu ePhalamende nibheke yonke into eniyibukayo iyisizathu sokuthi nivotele iqembu leNkatha. Noma yini eyinhlekelele eniyibona ngaphandle isho khona ukuthi nidinga iqembu elinesifiso elizimisele ukukhuculula leyo nhlekelele esifakwe kuyo yiqembu elibusayo. Makunjalo Sihlalo iqembu leNkatha liyasekela lo mbiko obekwe nguShenge Sokwalisa. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.



Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chair, in true fashion, the hon Buthelezi is once again stuck in the past and here he comes with rhetoric and meaningless statements about CEOs in the private

sector. Let us look at where taxpayers’ money is going. Let me give a few examples. For example, the ANC-governed eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality. What does the municipal manager of this failed municipality earn? He received a salary increase of more than 60% last year under the ANC-led government, taking his salary to R3,9 million a year, while the people of eThekwini suffer. That is the reality.


The reality is that whilst these government institutions have failed and even the hon Buthelezi will struggle to say that the Road Accident Fund is working. But what does the CEO of the Road Accident Fund earn? He earns R6,17 million a year while the fund is bankrupt and not doing its job. What does the CEO of the dysfunctional Prasa earn R6,8 million a year? What does the CEO of Transnet earn at R8,5 million a year?

That is a disgrace. Look at what the highest paid public officials earn at municipal level. And this Division of Revenue Bill is giving municipalities money that they are wasting because of a malfunctioning system of local government.



Chairperson, the Finance and Tax Commission, already more than


12 years ago, and it is a commission of this government. A structure of the Constitution said that the local government

model is wrong. The fact that small municipalities that are failing are being merged with other municipalities to create these big ungovernable municipalities is one of the main reasons why local government is failing, while the why, while the people are suffering. Has the ANC-led government listened to its own Finance and Fiscal Commission? No. They continue to enlarge municipalities to merge towns that fell into other municipalities due to their own failures while the people suffer. We need an overhaul of the local government system.


The reality is that our economy will never grow as long as we have an unreliable power supply and as long as we don’t have a reliably maintained infrastructure. Eighty per cent of our roads are in terrible shape because they are past their useful life, and 90% of wastewater treatment plants are not working properly. Does this Bill address that? No, it does not. Is the ANC-led government taking this seriously? And do you really consider that we need to invest in infrastructure. That we need new plans to get our infrastructure going. No, you are not doing that. You would rather go and spend money on wrong priorities and on a Public Sector Wage Bill that is unsustainable.

Chairperson, government departments currently owe municipalities more than R22 billion. That needs to be addressed whilst 165 municipalities are in severe financial distress. We need to rebuild and restore South Africa and South Africans does have that opportunity of the 29th of May. Thank you.



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the National Treasury transfers more than half of the nationally raised revenues to nine provinces and 257 municipalities. The ACDP has studied the report, and we definitely share concerns about the inflation average increase of only 3,8% over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, for the provincial equitable share. I do appreciate that it is a very difficult balancing act when it comes to fiscal consolidation on the one hand, how to spend this side and its opportunity costs from an economics perspective.



Hon Minister, as we know, provinces do not have significant taxation powers and the transfers through the Division of Revenue account for 97% of their revenues. Free and low-cost social services are provided by provinces which include basic public education for 13,4 million learners and healthcare for more than 51,9 million people. And this could be placed at

risk through this lower than inflation increase with the healthcare inflation being far higher than the 3,8%.


As far as the municipalities are concerned, the ACDP shares concerned, as expressed in National Treasury’s owned state of local government finances report that found that a large number, almost 169 out of the 250 municipalities, are in financial distress. Now there seems to be a continued pattern of detention as there were far fewer municipalities in financial stress, this dates back to 2010 and this has resulted in a collapse of services, potholes are rarely fixed. In fact, we see load shedding and now there’s a new term called “Road shedding” due to potholes which might sound funny, but it is actually quite tragic.



Municipal salaries are not paid in certain cases, and ratepayers often rightfully feel they are not getting value for money. Service delivery protests are rife often accompanied by violence and destruction, and this explains why increasing number of households might not be paying their municipal bills, which adds to the stress of municipalities.



We are aware that the national government has asked municipalities to apply for debt relief for Eskom and we know

that the write-off of R56 billion is subject to very strict conditions. The danger is that you create a moral hazard when municipalities know that this debt could be written off in the future. So, those conditions must be very closely watched.


Chairperson, in view of the fact that the provinces are facing a huge challenge with the R19 billion of the municipalities, these conditions need to be watched very closely. While we appreciate the Minister’s efforts in this regard, we feel that more could have been done. Therefore, we will not be supporting this, Bill. I thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Chairperson. Whilst we are talking about division of revenue, let me remind this House that Palestinians have been denied access to their financial resources by the Zionist and barbaric state of Israel, resulting in high levels of poverty, malnutrition and death. Now, I heard some concerns being raised about the salaries of some of the CFOs and others.



Let me remind this House that the four large banks in South Africa took an average of R176 million in salaries in the last financial year. It was R176 million amongst all major banks.

Nobody thinks there is anything wrong with that, while South Africa remains one of the most unequal societies in the world.


This simply means that what we inherited during the days of apartheid continues today because this economy has been captured, not only by these banks, but let us not forget Discovery Insurance, which has just been now forced to pay in terms of the latest judgment, who are repudiating claims left, right and center.



Minister, allow me to thank you, if you are here, on the allocations, particularly to the Department of Health, where I have just established, after a lot of pressure, that

828 medical graduates have now been accommodated by the department. In fact, that, is a good story to tell.



Let me also welcome the additional allocation to the SA Police Service, as the police officers still are underpaid very poor benefits, within R13 a day danger allowance, living in shacks in informal settlements. I think it is something that we should also be dealing with.



I want to talk about allocations to provincial governments. I see there is a reduction. In fact, I would be happy if we

completely remove it. Remove it. Perhaps, that is the way to go. On local government, a lot of money is being underspent. Umdoni Municipality is one ideal example, where they have underspent, but we have allocated a further R10 million to them and I think we need to address them. That’s alright!



Lastly, I want to touch on the most important thing: With the amount of money that is being allocated to local governments, something like - I sound like a stuck record and my Chairperson is here - and that is which they don’t mind because they are looting in terms of that in the local government. That is not getting value for money.



I think, Minister, we need to take some of these local municipalities and do a forensic audit on them in terms of all the procurement and tenders that you ordered. You will find some of my friends here have been looting left, right and centre. We support this Bill. Thank you very much.



Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon members, good afternoon. Chairperson, ...






... mokgatlo wa ANC o tshehetsa tekatekanyo ena ya ditjhelete, e etsuwang ke molao ona.


Chairperson, if you are listening to the people on my left, you will think that the ANC has not built 4,2million houses in South Africa. Now let me remind our colleagues that the strategic objective of the ANC is to build a nonsexist, a nonracial - and I repeat - a nonracial, a democratic and prosperous society.



This is the only organisation with a balanced policy of making sure that all people - black and white - are treated equally in this country. Therefore, hon members, we have the choice to undermine compelling evidence that has been presented by the Minister, through our ignorance, or we should state the obvious through a portfolio of evidence, which I am going to do, if you allow me, hon Chairperson.



To present a portfolio of evidence of the work that the ANC has done on education, the 2024 budget continues to make critical interventions to expand support for the poor and the working class. Four hundred and eighty billion rands has been allocated to learning and culture in this 2024 budget; 30% thereof is allocated towards post-school education and training, and 68% of it, hon members, towards basic education for the Tintswalos.

An amount of R9,7 billion is allocated to the school nutrition program and conditional grants. Given the importance of combating child hunger and starving, more than 10 million learners receive a meal on each school day through this program.



Through the Presidential Employment Initiative, R4 billion will be set aside for the employment of teacher assistants, which will create 32 000 job opportunities in this country. At the core of this education program, is the placement of unemployed youth in schools. This allocation is illustrative of how the ANC-led government gives practical and meaning to our commitment towards addressing youth unemployment.



The ANC-led government has introduced a new comprehensive student funding model that aims to support students, including those currently not supported by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, and funding through the policies that the ANC has established. To this end, the government has set aside R3,8 billion initially capitalisation fund to support the missing middle. This amount will fund 31 884 missing middle students. The category of students is those who come from families where the total income of more than

R350 000 but not more than R600 000 per annum.

On safety and security, crime remains a serious challenge and threat towards our democracy. The interventions to build capacity within the SA Police Service through the recruitment of an additional 10 000 police officers during this financial year is most welcome, with the allocation of R22 billion, which will be coupled with ICT infrastructure upgrades and modernisation initiatives to improve efficiencies to combat crime. A further additional R350 million to Defence and Police to support the upcoming general elections.


The Department of Home Affairs is allocated R839,9 million for its digitalisation project and R1,3 billion over the medium term, to fund critical posts for the Border Management Authority. On health, we are also proud for the completion of the Nuclear Medicine Research Institution at Steve Biko Academic Hospital, in collaboration with the University of Pretoria. With R500 billion in funding for the Department of Science and Innovation, this is the first of its kind on the continent, which pioneers a one-stop shop medical, nuclear imaging and theragnostic facility which will be revolutionary in new nuclear medicine.



Hon members, we at times are victims of our success. In 2014, we only had 1 308 medical graduates. By 2024, this number

increased to more than 2 210 medical graduates - a 60% increase. It is indicative of the successful expansion of access to higher education, which the ANC-led government continues to enable for previously disadvantaged South Africans. The concerns raised around unemployed doctors are therefore legitimate. We are pleased to announce that through the adopted Bill, by April, doctors will be appointed. Letters are already out in all the nine provinces.



On infrastructure development, R44 billion has been allocated for 37 regional bulk infrastructure projects across the country. In Mpumalanga, the Department of Water and Sanitation is co-ordinating R2 billion Loskop Bulk Water Project to build the pipeline for the Loskop Dam to Thembisile Hani Local Municipality. To enable more communities in the area to be provided with water is a portfolio of evidence, hon members, that there is water provision.



Meanwhile, in the North West province, there is a co- ordination of R200 million Bulela Metsi program, to expedited and prioritise projects to improve their reliability of water supply. In KwaZulu-Natal, the Umsunduzi, Amajuba, King Cetshwayo and Uthukela Municipalities have received

R2 billion, and the project has created 400 jobs. These are

practical interventions that the government is making to transform the face and structure of our economy.


The ANC-led government has made good progress since 1994, to change the socioeconomic landscape of the country. South Africa, today, is not the same as South Africa of 1994. We call upon all South Africans to defend their democracy on 29 May and vote for the ANC. I thank you, hon members.




Mnu R A LEES: Sanibonani, Sihlalo uyazi ukuthi akekho ophikayo la le nto ekhulunywa umngane wami uButhelezi ukuthi akungcono namhlanje kunesikhathi esibi sangaphambili kodwa akusiyona into eyenzwa yi-ANC iyodwa ...





We were all part of it. It was part of a result of the 1980s and early 1990s miracle of South Africa. You are quite right, hon Tobias, we must protect our democracy, and we must do it together.



Yithina okufuneka siyenze le nto ukuthi intando yeningi ezohambisana nezingane zethu zingalimali. Siyakuvuma konke loko.



Today we do not have to vote for Bantu Education. We do not have the Group Areas Act. We do not have Bantustans. We do not have dompases. Instead, we are all South Africans together. We have freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedom of association and many more freedoms.




Yazi ngelinye elanga kwafika abantu bangithinta bathi: Hhawu we mlungu usifundaphi lesi zulu sakho. Ngaphenduka ngababheka kahle ukuthi ngeke bakhale ngaphendula ngathi ngenkathi ngiyingane ngancela ibele elimnyama.



The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon members!



Mr R A LEES: I am an African like many other South Africans. My wife and I have fought against racism our entire adult lives, and indeed, during my childhood. I was blessed with having wonderful parents who instilled self-discipline and an

ethic of hard work in me. I was taught to treat all people with respect and that their apartheid system of racial discrimination was evil and had to be American.


My father went to work as a labourer, with a pick and shovel, on the railways, at the age of 13, in 1920. He did this in order to feed his family when my grandfather was bedridden for years with TB and lost the complete use of one lung and partial use of the second lung. This hardship at the age of 13 didn’t create a victim of my father. Instead, it gave him the determination to take every opportunity he could, to improve his life and those of his family.



Bassie went to night school and got his matric. After a few years working as a labourer, he jumped at the opportunity of becoming an apprentice electrician. This was a trade that was to enable him to provide for his family, even in his last and 80th year on earth. So much has changed for the better in South Africa over the past 30-4 years, since the release from prison of our founding President Mandela.



Madam Chair, we could have done much better. Education standards for the majority of our children remain way below those required of a winning nation. Poverty levels are

possibly worse than they were during apartheid. The government boasts about 27,8 million South Africans - 45% of our population - who receive grants. This should be an embarrassment, not an achievement.




Nk L D ZULU: Hhawu, kanti uyabheda ke manje.



Mr R A LEES: I just want to say that the majority of our people are forced to live off grants, instead of proudly working hard and looking after themselves and their families. Why do we constantly focus on inequality instead of the extreme levels of poverty imposed upon our people by a government that is fixated on outdated and failed Marxist ideologies of 1848?



Why have we abandoned the lead taken by Nelson Mandela at Davos in 1992, when he abandoned the evil of failed policies of nationalisation? Yet, here we are, 32 years later, still insisting on the state ownership and control of a completely failed airline.


The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon member, your time is up.

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair. [Interjections.]





Ngicela ukuthi nidedele uMazambane aye ekhaya ayoba nomaGumede. Sesiphelile isikhathi sami la ekhaya ngiyahamba, salani kahle.



The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mazambane! Hon Lees! [Interjections.]


The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Lees. Hon Lees, I hope you are not going to do what you have just done in the seventh Parliament. He exceeded his time, and I am not talking to people [Interjections.]



Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair! Madam Chair, that, was my last speech in this Parliament. I will not make any further speeches. Thank you.



The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): I am just telling you that you must not repeat it. Hon members, we shall proceed. Are you assisting him? I will call all of your names three times. Hon members, we shall proceed. I now recognise hon Z Mlenzana.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Chairperson, perhaps taking the better part of the speech by hon Mazambane, let alone his last paragraphs, I would complete what he said by saying, these are all remarkable achievements that the ANC-led government made since our democratic breakthrough. We have broken the intergenerational poverty and growing the middle class exponentially. To illustrate the point, in 2001, 13,8 million people were part of the middle class. But speaking today, over

24 million people are regarded as both middle and upper class.




The number of women purchasing homes is rapidly increasing. In 2020, 30% of mortgages were approved on historically disadvantaged women. This alone speaks to real progress that is enabled by the policies of the ANC. Hon members, our economy has been stagnant for over time, but we are making progress on a range of economic reforms to support the investment and job creation. To this effect, the Eskom Debt Relief has provided much support to the unit to restructure operations and conduct critical maintenance.



Transnet has been granted a guarantee of R47 billion to meet its borrowing requirements. The use of this guarantee is conditional on the implementation of a comprehensive turnaround plan to improve operational efficiency and achieve

financial sustainability. A further R19,2 billion is located to Transnet recovery plan for capital investments in locomotives and improving the availability and reliability of critical equipment.


I will touch on a few points, R750 million is prioritized towards the Department of Agriculture for Food Security and the livelihood programmes. On Traded and Industry, allocations of a R2,3 billion are made to support this Special Economic Zone, SEZ and the R156,3 million for industrial parks,

R417,6 million for critical bulk infrastructure and all these goals as we can post that the master plans had many spin offs for the small, micro and medium enterprises, SMME.



The ANC-led government has further created a conducive environment for business and local production by setting tariffs to protect local industries, such as in poultry, agroindustry, clothing, textile and so on. Further reprioritizing R964 million to support programmes for the transition from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles. I said I will be picking on a few points.



Tourism accounts for 30% of well services exports and the largest export category in many development countries. The

industry is tremendously an employment generator. Travel and tourism contribute 8,6% to South African economy and provide 9,2% of employment within the country. We are therefore appropriating R596,7 million to support employment in the sector through training of youth on norms and standards for safe tourism operation and will create an estimated - listen

17 988 job opportunities and will be reaching out to 250 SMMEs.



You are talking a lot about the local government. Let me just touch on a few things. Local government, we know, is the sphere of government arguably, the most important, and which is the closest or in the coalface of delivery. Therefore, the budget allocated R163,2 billion to this sector. We have got direct commercial grants in that sector. We also have got R22,2 billion which is for the indirect grants over the 2024 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. With infrastructure grants accounting to 96,3% of the allocations and capacity grants at about 3,7%, these allocations will catalyse economic activity, create jobs and make sure that there is life at local government level.



We further welcome the efforts to support the struggling municipality by allocating R2 million for the introduction of

smart meter grants. Now, let me come to this before my time expires because I want to spend time on this. On the DA’s Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality understanding. You know, the expenditure of conditional grants allocated to Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality which the DA governed is below 30% threshold, meaning the municipality lost. The whole

R635 million in allocation for service delivery and capital projects because of the poor governance and management or lack of care for the black people in that municipality. I am raising this because only R7 million out of R133 million was spent on expanded public works incentives. A whopping

R140 million is allocated to the city as neighbourhood development programme grant has not been used and R34 million grant allocated to Human Development settlement unused. The city was allocated R150 million for informal settlement upgrading and they spent only R17 million.



The infrastructure projects are essential, but not for the people of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality as far as they are concerned. What do they know best is to focus on the Western Cape, particularly Cape Town. Even in Cape Town, there would always be those so-called white settlements where they make sure that they spend lots and lots of money. Even here in the Western Cape, if you go to the people of Mfuleni, Khayelitsha,

Crossroads, they do not care for them. They only care for the white elite. Which is very racist. And we are saying to South Africans, know your DA.


The disorganization and lack of service delivery also demonstrate the risks associated with the coalition governments since 2016. Under the so-called coalition governments, look, now they are busy trying to put together a group of small parties trying to fight the ANC. You know what, they think that they are once more going to abuse those small black parties, so that they manage them and become on top.


You know Chairperson, generally, a year has got four seasons. But because of what I said before, about the democratic breakthrough, because of the ANC, there is now another season which I call that season, a silly season. Do you know the silly season?




Zineendlebe kodwa aziva, zinamehlo, aziboni, ziyazi...





... but pretend as if...


... azazi.





Why? Because they are predetermined.






Uyabona ukuba bendiza kushumayela...




There are people recently...






... ebebeziziqhwala kodwa bahamba ngoku.





There are people who were blind...




... namhlanje, bayabona...






... but because they are fighting this one political party to make sure that they reduce the majority of the ANC. They

behave as if nothing has been done by the ANC, some of them, are howling on this just because of the breakthrough which was done by the ANC. The ANC has liberated even them. They are now rubbing shoulders with the so-called white minorities. Why?

Because of the breakthrough, which was done by the ANC. That is why the ANC is supporting this Bill. I am calling on you to go back to your roots. Go back and vote the ANC. [Time expired.]



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, the Division of Revenue Bill fulfils an important role in the equitable distribution of the national raised revenue. Much has been made about cuts over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. Little has been said that there's a difference between what we tabled in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement on the 1st of November and the numbers tabled in the budget because the numbers - in fact, the budget cuts have been reversed. I'm going to come back to what is remaining on the cuts.



Provinces get about 42% of the national raised revenue which costs about 97% of their revenue. Of 3,4% of that comes from own revenue that provinces collect such as motor licenses. But what we've done by reversing these budget cuts is that we have

helped the provinces to be able to pay for teachers, doctors, nurses and other critical service delivery posts. That's what we're going to achieve.


What are these functions that the provinces are conducting? The hon member Swart from the ACDP has mentioned the point that we're providing basic support to basic education to about 13,4 million learners. We're also providing support healthcare to 5,9 million South Africans who do not have access to medical aid. That is a significant achievement by this government.


Over the MTEF, we intend moving from R706 billion in 2023-24 to R729 billion and in the next financial year for provinces. Municipalities get 9,8 of that national raised revenue and over the MTEF, they'll get another R531 billion. It is important to note that 11,2 households each get a subsidy of R567 per month. I'm going to unpack that in a moment because the hon Manyi says the Division of Revenue says nothing about electricity. What hon Manyi does is that he has not been able to read the budget properly.



What is interesting is that we publish volumes of documents to help members to be able to digest information, whether that

information tells you about electricity and municipalities. In municipalities we provide about R70 billion for those services. Now what happens? Here is the problem. Here's the problem, precisely because people are not paying for paying for services, municipalities are not providing the subsidy to these people. The money is available, right? But because people are not paying for services therefore, municipalities are not providing a subsidy. What then happens is that they direct the money for other uses.


How has this government responded? The caring government. How has this government responded? This government then says okay, we're providing the municipality and the consumer with a debt relief. What does that mean? It means that the municipality provided – again we're providing an incentive. Put prepaid meters to the consumer to be able to pay and that consumer’s debt will be written off and the municipality will be ... [Inaudible.] That's a caring government.



Much has been said about the cuts. If you look at the cuts including the hon member from the DA that makes reference, I would not be making reference to this grant if I was the DA, the Informal Settlement Upgrading Grant. Precisely, the DA is famous of not being able to spend that grant in the Western

Cape. That's the grant that's being underspent by most of the provinces, and he makes a point that we're making a deduction on that. The deductions we have made - the cuts we have made over a long term relate to performance.


Let me take you back. In 2022, we had R28 billion underspending and in the previous year we had R36 billion underspending. Where was that coming from? It was coming from conditional grants. We have tailored the expenditure on conditional plans in line with the performance of the relevant departments.



So, when you make reference, no province has lost on its equitable share. Now again, that requires that we scrutinise the budget document effectively, so that we should understand the budget. We provide enough information for people to read and analyse the budget.



There's this notion that a lot has been done in the public service. I think we're doing a bad thing, because we're undermining the public and performance of the public service in this country by continually bashing on them. I don't think it's in the interest of the country, it's in the interest of

the public service for them to perform by continually bashing on them. I don't want to want to go into detail on that.


Safe to say this government has done all of these things will to start increasing tax for the past few years. Compliance revenue is performing very well. We've done this while maintaining our fiscal sustainability. We were on track to maintain that.



There's a tendency to contrast Mandela against the ANC. I don't know where this thing comes from. Where does this thing come from because the ANC is still continuing and pursuing Mandela's project? And that project was crafted in the ready to govern document in 1990s. And we're on course in pursuing that document. We have not at all moved away from that document.


So, there's a tendency to distinguish people from the party as if this party does not belong to Mandela. This party belongs to Mandela. Of course, like all other parties which are in government, we do have our own shortfalls and mistakes. And of course, as the ruling party has done mistakes. Somebody who soes not do anything can't make mistakes. It's only people who

are doing something who are likely to make mistakes. We accept them.


South Africans are aware as we go to the 29th of May, what is fiction and what are facts, what is a dream and what is reality. We have got a footprint and a track record of running this country on a sustainable basis. I think as we go to the elections, South Africans will be aware of that track record. I thank you, Chairperson.



Debate concluded.




Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).







(Consideration of Report of Standing Committee)




There was no debate.




Mr B A Radebe: Moved that the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.




Report accordingly adopted.







(First Reading)





Mnu. N S BUTHELEZI:Besengike nganibingelela malungu ahloniphekileyo.




... the African National Congress supports the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. What is perhaps interesting before I come to this point. Hon Wessels, I have not heard you refute the fact that CEOs earn R150 000 a day and the teller in the bank cannot do that in a year. That is a fact. The fact that there may be other wrong things does not make it right.



The Bill proposes to effect adjustments in the allocation of moneys from the National Revenue Fund for state needs for the 2023-24 fiscal year. The Bill mainly proposes adjustments of the allocations in the Peace and Security and Public Service

Administration clusters. These are labour-intensive departments and therefore a provision for the wage agreement should be made between labour and government. As the ANC-led government, we respect the agreements that we enter into, and we do not see workers as a cost but as an important asset that is at the forefront of service delivery. We continue to recognise that our public service workers are proportionally servicing more people due to population growth and the services they are required to provide as ushered by the new democracy.



Hon members, let us say at the outset that the issue of underspending continues to an elephant in the room as demonstrated by what is happening in Tshwane. So, it is an area that we have agreed on as a committee, and I think we should really focus on that instead of politicising the issue. Underspending is a problem in government, whether it is the DA in Tshwane, it is a problem. I think we should accept that so that we can start dealing with it. In the committee, we are clear that in most cases there are no reasons to justify underspending, but a myriad of unsound excuses. The different portfolio committees ought to be careful of these excuses. We now know that the underspending from which the money is distributed mainly came from the indirect grants. This is

unacceptable because our people are denied important services. However, it is prudent fiscal management that this money be allocated to other budget votes which would use the money.


The Bill, among others, allocates R200 billion to home affairs to increase political funding allocations. We need to fund the deepening of democracy and try to level the political playing field. As you can see, parties like the DA have friends who have got very deep pockets. In fact, there is no better example than the latest DA attempt at mortgaging our democracy as the hon President Ramaphosa observed, arrogating to themselves the right to invite the Americans and the European Union, EU, to be observers. Whereas the history of the International Criminal Court, ICC, is impeccable. We reiterate what advocate Pansy Tlakula said, and I quote:



The IEC has very robust systems, and they are also transparent.


She continued to say, and I quote:



The IEC will be able to manage free and fair elections.

It is difficult to disagree with those who claim that this thing reeks of racism. They have leapfrogged the Southern African Development Community, SADC, the African Union, AU, and many other structures on the continent, and they are leaping towards Europe and the United States. The optics and the smell are bad, to say the least.



We also welcome and support the extra R80 million allocated to the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, DIRCO, to accommodate the cost of Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, and the United Arab Emirates, BRICS Summit in 2023. Talking about BRICS, why did you not write to BRICS and ask them to be observers? The answer is obvious. The successful hosting of BRICS by South Africa proved that we are able to successfully punch above our weight. Our hosting of BRICS was successful by any measure.

The joining of Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, UAE, is a testament to the importance of that bloc. It provides a big economic bloc with a huge mutual economic benefits and stability, and fortunately, Business South Africa welcomes this. A lot of business is taking place in South Africa and the countries in the BRICS. Now BRICS has more than 40% of the world’s population and accounts for R28,5 trillion, about 28% of global economy. This allocation to DIRCO is

therefore being put to good use. The African National Congress supports the 2023-24 Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. I thank you.


Declaration of vote:

Mr A N SARUPEN: House Chair, it is entertaining to be at the end of this Parliament and, of course, it is the first time that I am experiencing the full term of Parliament, and I did not know that at the end of a Parliament term, the ANC speakers who do not return are the most animated speakers of all. That is highly unusual. I wish they had the chutzpah and the ability to make these great speeches throughout the term. It would have been much more interesting for all of us, and the debates would have been much more fun if we could have seen the skills of these ANC speakers today. But I suppose you only wake up when it’s too late. Quite typical how the ANC runs the government.



Hon Chair, the reason why we have a Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill at the moment, is because two things happened this year that led to this Bill. First, is the Public Sector Wage Bill was not budgeted for properly with the increases, which has resulted in the myriad of problems. The second problem is that truthfully, tax revenue in this

financial year fell off a cliff, and as a result, we know that the state has increased borrowing and make all sorts of drastic changes.


However, if we take a closer look at this Bill, we see, firstly, some very, very strange decisions in this environment. This Bill creates a R17 000 000 budget for the Ministry of Electricity. The government has failed to consolidate to the responsibilities for electricity under any Ministry, which would have been logical. And now we have a third powerless Minister while we have record levels of load shedding. Pouring even more money into this function without proper accountability is not only wasteful but irresponsible.



There is a reduction to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, by R400 million and this will impact things like, community works programme, and it is because of administrative failures and finalising contracts with implementing agents. If there is one thing the ANC is good at, it is messing up contracts. So here we go again.



There are cutting funding for vital community initiatives due to their own bureaucratic inefficiencies and it is

unacceptable and will only exacerbate many socioeconomic problems in the country. Furthermore, there is an additional allocation of R200 million in this Bill for party political funding allocations, I guess billboards are not cheap. The sign of how much confidence people have in their parties where they are willing to donate and if they cannot donate to you, it is not a good idea to take it from the public. Just some advice.



I know you spoke about having business dinners at R10 000 per seats, tickets and so on. I have seen the advertisements, ADS, I get them. Of course I don’t attend, my money goes where I am going to get some value for it. But if you can’t fundraise, please stop stealing public money to pay for your elections.

It is not a good idea. And yes, you can pass a law, but you are still taking public money to pay for your election campaign. That is why this Bill must be passed today, regardless of its problems, because you must get the money. So just own up to it, nobody wants to give you money anymore. You are yesterday’s news.


Finally, in this Bill we have received an additional R18 million for the Department of International Relations and Co- operation to host the BRICS Summit. Hon Buthelezi asked the DA

why we were not writing to BRICS. Well, BRICS now includes Iran and the ANC’s message to the country is: if you are a woman in South Africa, be afraid because the ANC now approves of how Iran treats women. It had no objection to Iran’s inclusion in BRICS. Despite its atrocious record in human rights and Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender, LGBT, rights, open arms for Iran. A bad act in the international stage.



And then of course, we have got an additional R12 million to the Public Service Commission to cover again the higher than budgeted Public Sector Wage Bill, which shows that we have a systemic problem either in budgeting or in managing the Public Sector Wage Bill. And this is going to come to a head as the state approaches A fiscal cliff.



The Second Adjustment Appropriations Bill fails to deal with the fact that we have fundamental issues. And I have started my speech by saying there is two of them, a big Public Sector Wage Bill for that was not properly budgeted for and tax revenue falling off a cliff. There are no viable solutions in here. Perpetuates a cycle of wasteful spending and bureaucratic inefficiency. In fact, the ANC’s poster slogan should be “no viable solutions, bureaucratic and efficiency.”

Put that on your post and wasteful spending, of course. In my own constituency, I see a poster of President that says “together.” Together for what? I don’t know yet. We will find out.


As responsible stewards of public funds which all Member of Parliament, MPs, should be, we cannot in good conscience support a Bill that prioritises political hobby horses over the well-being of our citizens. The DA opposes the Bill, thank you.



Mr M MANYI: Minister, Madiba, the issue of the division of revenue is not Treasury invention. Section 214(1) of the Constitution requires that the Division of Revenue Act, DORA, determines the equitable division of nationally raise revenue amongst the three spheres of government. So, we know what you’re talking about.



We have time to time again as the EFF have demonstrated to this House that the division of revenue that goes to municipalities is not adequate and needs to be reviewed. I think even Financial Fiscal Commission, FFC, agrees to this.

Communities can’t continue to pay for the ANC’s poor planning and corruption in these municipalities, can’t be having all these bailouts and all these loans. The EFF have over the years demonstrated to the non-listing ANC-led government that the proposed division fails to address the load shedding crisis in South Africa. It fails to address the crisis in higher education institutions in terms of space and accommodation. It fails to address the issues of school nutrition programs and scholar transport. It fails effectively to resolve the unemployment among the youth, which is the highest.


House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed austerity budget tabled by the Minister of Finance, that is just a continuation of budget cuts and amputation of state institutions. There are no solutions to challenges facing South Africans. It’s just talk, talk, talk, nothing substantive. Even when there is evidence that this budget cuts are not solving the problems. And are making it worse, but they continue to do the budget cuts.



We noted that the cut on human settlements development and informal settlement upgrade of a 1,5 billion and 1,2 billion, while housing and informal settlement backlog remain high. As

noted by the Financial Fiscal Commission, FFC, it is concerning that this occurred when the 2022 midyear estimate showed an increase in the number of people living with human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, and acquired immune deficiency syndrome, AIDS.



The FFC was also concerned with material reduction in the funding for Ilima Letsema, as the grant assists previously disadvantaged farmers, and contributes to food security. The commission also noted that 1,1 billion, which has previously been added to the early childhood development for nutrition support and results-based service delivery will be implemented nationally on behalf of provinces.



South Africa is in a crisis because the economy is not growing, and unemployment is increasing. Our revenue is therefore not growing. It’s a matter of a simple economics, grow your tax base by reducing unemployment, why it’s complicated. The EFF believes that only industrialization, massive industrialization, not just industrialization, can make a meaningful impact in reducing unemployment among the youth.

Since 2014, the EFF has been highlighting the shenanigans of a transfer pricing. It has been highlighting the negative impact of base erosion and profit shifting on South Africa, which has become increasingly evident with the reduction of tax revenues, resulting in escalating rates of poverty, inequality and unemployment.



The multilateral convention to implement tax treaty related measures to prevent base erosion and profit shifting, came into effect in January 2023, but to date no real progress has been made.


As I conclude, as with everything policy or convention, it is clear that once again, the ANC-led government is failing on the implementation side. Therefore, people of South Africa, 29 April don’t make a mistake, make an X where it’s rare. Make an

X with the EFF. That’s your future. Thank you.





Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, sibonga ithuba, njengoba sidingida lo Mthethosivivinywa kubalulekile ukuqaphela ukuthi lo Mthethosivivinywa ucosula kuphela nje lokho okucoshakala esikhwameni sikaMgcinimafa Kazwelonke ngakhoke kufanele sikugcizelele ukuthi ukwabiwa kwalezi

zinkece lokhu akukhona nje ukuchitha icala kodwa kuhambisana nomthwalo ngokwezimfanelo onzima wokuqinisekisa ukuthi lezi zinkece azisetshenziswa nangayiphi indlela kuphela zifeza lokho ezimiselwe khona futhi zikufeza ngempumelelo.


Ukukhathazeka kwethu njenge-IFP ukuthi kufanele kuthathwe izinyathelo eziqinile zokuqinisekisa ukuthi izimali ezabiwe aziqondiswe ezinhlosweni zazo hhayi ukuthi zenze okunye.

Okudabukusayo ukuthi siye sibona kakhulu izikhathi iminyango kaHulumeni yehluleka ukufeza lokho eyabelwe izimali ukuba ikufeze izimali zigcine zibuyiselwa emuva kungakhathaliseki ukuthi abantu bakirhi bahlupheka kangakanani futhi nezidingo zabo bazifisa kangakanani.




It’s essential, therefore, that government department not only spend in accordance with their allocations, but also address issues of maladministration and curtail fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Appropriating funds is a significant step, but it cannot stand alone.




Ngeke, Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ukuvumela ukwehluleka kweminyango ngaphakathi ukusebenza ukuba kubukelwe phansi

bawuthunaze umsebenzi wokwabiwa kwezimali. Kodwake akukaze kwenzeke emhlabeni nje nakuphi ukuthi ubeke abantu abangekho qotho nabangamaqili emandleni bese uthemba wena obabekile ukuthi bayokwenza ubulungiswa ekwabeni izimali. Yingakho sibona ukukhwabanisa okungaka ngoba vele sizigile thina ngokubeka abantu abangathembakele.



Ukuze, Sihlalo, sifinyelele endaweni efanele la khona zonke izimali ziyokwenza izinhloso ukuthi zonke izimali zingathathwa eminyangweni ebalulekile sisiwa eminyangweni ekulula ukuthi zidleke kuyo kuyodinga ukuthi sikhethe iqembu elinabaholi abaqotho nabathembekile. Iqembu elihloliwe lavivinywa neqembu elethembisa kanzulu. Linye kuphela iqembu eNingizimu Afrika elithembisa kanzulu nokuyiqembu lelo le-IFP esithi abantu bakuleli abalethembe ukuze lenze lokhu elidume ngakho.



Ngakhoke siyabathemba abantu ukuthi bazozikhulula bona kulawa maketanga abazibopha bona kuwo ngoba labo abekade bebathemba sebekhombisile, hhayi kanye, hhayi kabili, kodwa kaningi ukuthi sebephonse ithawula, behlulekile. Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo.




Mnr W W WESSELS: Huisvoorsitter, die agb Buthelezi sê nie wat hierdie wetsontwerp werklik doen nie en die agb Surupen is heeltemal korrek. Wat hierdie wetsontwerp doen is eintlik om weereens te poog om ’n koninkryk in die kantoor van mnr Ramaphosa te skep. Dit skep ’n superdepartement in die kantoor van mnr Ramaphosa.




By allocating an additional R70 million to the Presidency to create the Ministry of Electricity, whilst they still a Minister of Energy, whilst there’s still a Department of Energy, there’s no reduction in those departments. There’s also no reduction in the Department of Public Enterprises or in the Ministry of Public Enterprises, which are just eating taxpayers’ money whilst achieving nothing.



But R70 million that could have been spent much better, even in solving the electricity crisis, really solving it, not just talking about it, as spent on a super department of Mr Ramaphosa.


There is a R200 million allocated to political parties, additionally allocated to political parties, for what to save the ANC from bankruptcy, whilst the people are suffering. That

hon Buthelezi is what you should tell people out there about this Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. Because that what it actually entails.


The R18 million allocated to the Department of International Relations is in effect, Minister unauthorized expenditure, because that expenditure already took place. Because that’s typical of how the ANC manage finances. You can’t adjust an unauthorized expenditure correctly, there is a Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, that provides for how you should handle unauthorized expenditure.


That summit already took place, you didn’t have money for it, but that’s how this government operates. It spends money that it does not have. It eats away at taxpayers’ money. But House Chairperson just as confused as the EFF’s political and economic policies are. So confused the hon Manyi is unaware on the order paper we are. We were on the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill now. But just as confused, he is on the election date. Election hon Bobani is taking place on the 29th of May. And on the 29th of May, South Africans will be able to vote against these wrong priorities and senseless, nonsensical Bill. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP shares concerns expressed about this Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. If one looks at the proposed reduction of R400 million under corporative government, and in particularly it relates to community work program and considers that with the reduction of R8 million under the public works expanded public works program, then it must be of deep concern to us. Given the high levels of poverty and unemployment in the country.



Now, whilst we appreciate, as the ACDP that the private sector is the main sphere to create jobs. Given the high levels of unemployment, it is also helpful where the state has come in with this successful program. With job creation, many people have been assisted in this program, the expanded Public Works Program, and therefore it is highly regrettable, that its budget has been cut in this regard.


House Chairperson, as far as the R200 million transferred to the represented political parties fund is concerned, the ACDP shares concerns that, particularly given the amendment to the Electoral Matters Amendment Bill, which would change the funding formula for parties, as we alluded to previously, when this matter was debated from a 66% proportional and 33% equitable to a 90%/10% allocation. This will mean that if that

Electoral Matters Amendment Bill is signed into law before this R200 million allocation, that will mean that the ANC will receive substantially more in terms of this new allocation, which as we’ve previously indicated goes directly against what the ad hoc committee decided on in the previous Parliament of the extensive hearings in order to substantiate the section

236 of the Constitution provision of representative based on proportional and equitable.



And let me remind us why that equitable side is so important. It is, to level the playing fields going into the elections. It is, to prevent money parties that are funded by big business from dominating the sphere and it is, as was pointed out in the debate, when the 66%/33% allocation was accepted by this Parliament, it is to enhance multiparty democracy.



So, it is regrettable, and one will have to look and see how this is allocated. And this also raises the issue, hon Minister, whether the R300 million allocated in the first adjustment appropriation, which in our knowledge has still not been paid, will be paid on the new formula or the old formula. But rest assured, the ACDP, as is indicated with other political parties will be contesting that allocation of 90%/ 10%, which we believe is unconstitutional. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, let me start off by raising my concern about the hon Mlenzana. You came here, you stood at the podium, for almost 10 minutes you were addressing the failures of the DA and for the first time, I saw the DA - I don't know what term to use. They were as quiet as ever because they did not have a response. You attacked them left, right and centre on their failures, their dismal performance and they could not react to such an extent, I could tell you that if you dropped a pin, you would have heard it on this corner. That's how - but anyway, that is a sign of failure, and accepting that we have failed. Rather than attacking anybody, it’s always said that when you're pointing a finger, there's a few behind. So, they need to look at that.



I think it is very important that we must understand when there is a lack of implementation and let me tell you, it's not the first time. A couple years ago, the entire Urban Settlement Development Grant was not used, not used by the DA in the city of Cape Town. That's how bad the situation is.


What we should be doing is addressing why we are failing to spend those monies, and rightfully as some of the colleagues have alluded to that people suffer on the ground because of that. But then what do you do when those funds are available?

There's nothing wrong in reallocating them. In fact, if I had it my way, I’ll allocate a lot more to Home Affairs, a lot more to police officers, SA Police Service, SAPS.


But be that as it may, I also want to raise a concern. I heard the hon Buthelezi from the IFP talking about when you get the wrong kind of people, I don't know which planet he comes from because KwaZulu-Natal is an absolute mess where they are governing and the Auditor-General has highlighted that time and time again.



If you look at the corruption in the IFP run municipalities, you know, I was just saying to a colleague from the EFF right now, you must not think that because you don't hear much of the DA’s corruption then it doesn't exist. It exists. The only problem is they manage the corruption better. They know how to hide it. They master the heart of that.



Now in the IFP in KwaZulu-Natal, I’m shocked when they come and stand here criticising somebody, when it's public knowledge how poor they govern. Chairperson, anyway, we will support this Bill that is tabled here today, but I think a very important message Minister, implementation of programmes and projects. Thank you very much.

Mr M NYHONTSO: No declaration from PAC, Chair.




Mr X S QAYISO: Hon House Chairperson and members, I want to start my input to this House by emphasising what President Mandela said at the end of his biography. He said:



“I have walked that long road to freedom. I have tried not to falter; I have made missteps along the way. But I have discovered the secret that after climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb.”



Over the past 30 years, the people of South Africa, led by the ANC, have been at the forefront of constructing a new South Africa.





Naha ya rona e tsamaile nako e telele e leka ka matla hore e ntlafatse maphelo a setjhaba sa rona. Mme seo re se utlwang kajeno ke hore puso ya rona ha e a sebetsa dilemong tse mashome a mararo tse fitileng empa ese nnete hobane re ka bolela hore dilemo tse mashome a mararo tse fitileng, ditekanyetso tse entsweng ke puso ena e etelletsweng pele ke puso ya ANC, e entse ka hohle hore mafapha a puso a sebetse ka

thata hore maphelo a batho ba rona a fetohe, a ntlafale mme ba kgone ho ka una molemo demokerasing eo re e fumaneng.


Re batla ho etsa kgoeletso le ho hlokemdisa batho ba rona hore batho bana ba etsang mohoo ba re bona ba ya morao ho 1994, ba se ke ba ya le bona. Rona moo re habileng ho ya teng ke letsatsing la 29 Mmesa 2024. Ke moo re habileng ho ya teng.





Hon Chair, to illustrate the point that 30 years later many people have found a place in the formal economy since 1994 and many of our people have entered the workforce. The total employment increased from 8 million in 1994 to 16,7 million to date. The South African economy is three times as large as it was three decades ago at the birth of democracy and as individuals, we are on average better off by one and a half times the monetary measures when we measure by the Human Development Index which is health and education.




Ke ka hoo ke reng batho ba rona ba ka se kgutlele morao ho 1994 hobane re se re fitile moo.




It is scientifically not possible to go to 1994. The hon Wessels, you can't say that the ANC has run the government bankrupt. In fact, for your information, I don't know how young you were at that stage, but you should understand that we inherited an apartheid state which was ran flat by the colonial regime gangsters. So, we had to start afresh to build this country, hence the work that I’m demonstrating that the ANC has done over the 30 years.



In 2020, our country and the world were afflicted by the global COVID-19 pandemic and in the same year President Ramaphosa linked gender-based violence and femicide to a second pandemic. With these upcoming elections, we are confronted by the third pandemic called memory loss suffered by the opposition and many detractors of the ANC.



House Chair and hon members, allow me to briefly jog your memories. In early 90s, only 36 of the population and only 12 of rural communities had access to electricity. Today, eight of 10 people have electricity, and eight of 10 households use electricity or gas for cooking. In 1994, only six out of 10 South Africans had access to clean drinking water. Today, that figure has increased to nearly nine out of 10 South Africans.

Under the apartheid, access of health services depended on the colour of the skin with low life expectancy for the majority. Today, seven out of 10 households have access to free primary health care, and we are going to intensify it through the National Health Insurance.



Since 1994, we have built over 1 700 new clinics and 56 hospitals, mainly in disadvantaged and rural communities. We have been able to expand access to education and we have provided free schooling for the poor and a daily meal for over

10 million learners. In 1995, only 70 students were funded by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS. Today, the government funds 1,3 million students from previously disadvantaged communities.



So, we don't want to be misled by the people who say the ANC has not done anything over the past 30 years. Through this adjustment appropriation budget, it is a resource which has been reprioritised to intensify service delivery in various grants, including providing R12 million to the Public Service Commission for compensation of employees, allocate R30 million to Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities and R45 million to the Office of the Chief Justice for the wage agreement.

In conclusion, hon Chair, as we call all South Africans to go out on the 29th of May, they must go out on the 29th of May to defend our democracy that we have fought for. By renewing the mandate of the ANC, we'll build on foundations of the 30 years of freedom. We'll continue this journey that we have started towards a better life with equal opportunities for all now and into the future. The ANC supports this.


There was no debate.




Bill read a first time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).





(Second Reading)




There was no debate.



Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



There was no debate.




Mr B A Radebe moved: That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.







(First Reading)



Mr N S Buthelezi: Chairperson, ...





 ... bese ngike ngabingelela, malungu ahloniphekile ngaphambili, kodwa angibingeleli manje. Kodwa bengithi mhlawumbe ngaphambi kokuthi ngiqhubeke, ngicela laba

abangayifuni le mali le enikezwa amaqembu ezombusazwe bayibuyise phela.




You can’t come here and ...






... uyikhulume kabi bese uyoyithatha ebusuku.




So, Madiba, there is additional money ...






... kulawo maqembu abangayifuni.






The ANC supports the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account Defrayal Amendment Bill. This Bill amends the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account Defrayal Act of 2003. What does it provide for? The Act allows the Minister of Finance and the Governor to set a positive balance in the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account by mutual agreement. The Minister and Governor agreed on a new

framework for managing this and this requires amendment to the Act.


Currently, the value of the account stands at a positive balance of R500 billion. When the rand depreciates, ...





... le akhawunti iyanyuka.




The account gains. So, this half-a-trillion balance reflects the depreciation of the currency over a long time. Let me stress this, this is a government account managed by the SA Reserve Bank.





Angithi kukhona abanye abazoqala bagxuma gxume bekhuluma into engekho bathi, hhayi nali ibhange ngodla ... uHulumeni useyothata imali yebhange ngodla.




This is the government’s account. In 2003, when this account was in deficit, the government credited this account ...


 ... ngo-R28 billion. Ngakhoke imali yaphuma kuHulumeni yaya kule akhawunti. Ngakhoke uma kunemali eningi ngale akukho okubi ukuthi sithathe imali yethu.





The amendment establishes the rules as to how to deal with the excess in this account in the future. The amendment allows positive balances to be distributed in what is called a waterfall arrangement to three pools, the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account buffer to mitigate risk in case of rand appreciation shock, the SA Reserve Bank contingency reserve and annual distribution once the two pools are adequately taken care of. This arrangement allows for proper risk management for the account and allows the Minister of Finance access to these government resources when needed and according to these rules. Please note this is done by mutual agreement between the Minister of Finance and the Governor of the SA Reserve Bank because some among us like jumping to the threat of the independence of the Reserve Bank. Here that argument is misplaced. It doesn’t arise. Let me assure South Africans that what is done here is in strict accordance with section 224(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

This is the last Bill that we as the Appropriations Committee are tabling in the Sixth Administration. I, therefore, would like to thank all of you for having worked with us and made it possible for the House to pass about 80 Appropriations Bills. Also, as the chair, a special thanks to the diligent Standing Committee on Appropriations and our support staff. We're also appreciative of the two Ministers of Finance we directly worked with, the former Minister Tito Mboweni, and the current Minister Enoch Godongwana and Deputy Minister Dr David Masondo, and of course the whole National Treasury team.



The Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and the Parliamentary Budget Office. We also thank the Chief Whip hon Pemmy Majodina, the Whippery at large from the ruling party and the opposition. Last but not least, let me thank ...




... umuzi kaMathebhisa ubaba uShenge noMaShandu ...






 ... my mother for the support I got from them. Lastly, I thank ...




 ... undlunkulu wakwami uMaXhakaza, uThandeka nondodakazi uMandulo uQhawekazi ...




 ... for the support and the understanding of long hours working away from home as we try to better the lives of our people. Also, for allowing me to invade their space and I guess that's all of you and expropriate their space without compensation. The ANC accepts and supports the Bill. I thank you.



Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr A N SARUPEN: House Chair, the government in and of itself does not have money and does not make money. Certainly, this government doesn't make money, but the government’s money comes from one source, its citizens and the activity of its citizens, which is tax, not from anywhere else. Even borrowings are just money that citizens have to pay back in the future. Now, the fact that we have this Bill, the Gold and Foreign Currency Contingency Reserve Account Defrayment Amendment Bill, long title, is a demonstration of the simple truth, that this government has run out of other people's money.

The state is dependent on taxpayers for money, and there's simply nothing left to tax. We have one of the highest tax-to- GDP ratios in the world. In 2021, our tax-to-GDP ratio was higher than the average of 33 African countries in 2023 by 11,4%. So, we're now at a point where taxpayers cannot provide any more, and the state has to turn to the Reserve Bank. I must remind you the Reserve Bank is the primary monetary policy instrument of the country. It's not reserved for the governing party, and going down this approach is a terrible decision. This account exists as a financial instrument held by our central bank to provide a buffer against unexpected economic shocks or crises. It exists to fulfil the Reserve Bank's mandate to stabilise our currency, ensure financial stability, meet external financial obligations, such as servicing foreign debt or financing imports, and of course, to defend the currency against excessive depreciation due to speculative attacks.



The value of these reserves has only increased when measured in terms of a depreciating currency, and this is the only reason why there appears to be a lot of money in this account.



It hasn't grown in value. The currency has just gotten a lot worse in value due to the myriad of economic issues. By

raiding this account, the ANC is selling the country, it doesn't want the rand to strengthen, and when the rand doesn't strengthen, the ANC is now saying effectively that it doesn't want lower fuel prices because we cannot afford a stronger currency after this Bill is passed.



So, depleting these reserves for immediate short-term government expenditure can only have negative long-term consequences for the economic resilience of our country and the ability of this country to withstand future financial crises. Once these reserves are spent, this is not 2003, there is no money to replenish it, and it'll be impossible as the country's external position deteriorates further or if foreign investors lose confidence in the economy, which is happening already. So, considering the importance of this Bill, it's rather shocking that this is a one-page Bill with no fail- safes and no clear plan for settlements in the event of a rapid currency strengthening. So, there is no upside to raiding this account. This is not and never was, as some people want to portray, a secret government slush fund. It is a critical instrument for financial stability.



So, raiding this account is a matter of last resort because the ANC has failed to grow the economy. Not the first promise

to fail since 1994. It was in your manifesto, and it will fail to create jobs, another failed manifesto promises from 1994.


Doing this can only be done through meaningful reforms that'll bring in tax revenue and improve people's circumstances in a meaningful way. The ANC has promised many plans in my short time in public office since 2010. I've seen a National Development Plan, a New Growth Path, a New Deal, all subsequent plans, and what this shows is that the ANC has no shortage of plans but when it comes to the most basic aspects of implementation, nothing ever happens. So, we will not get economic growth. We will not get any more jobs.



We will see further raiding of other parts of the government balance sheets. So, the DA does not support the raiding of this account and it's a bad idea that shows what a desperate government does when you run out of other people's money. I thank you.



Mr M MANYI: House Chair, as the EFF, which is the socialist organisation committed to the advancement of the economic justice and equality, we largely support the findings, observations and recommendations of the Standing Committee on Appropriations regarding the Gold and Foreign Exchange

Contingency Reserve Account, Gfecra, Amendment Bill. Firstly, we align with the committee’s recognition of the Bill’s provisions, yet we assert that the measures should not serve as permanent features within the government’s fiscal framework. It is imperative that the government prioritises long-term strategies aimed at fostering sustainable economic growth which in turn generates revenue and facilitate the realisation of strategic objectives without the need for the recurrent interventions.


The committee’s acknowledgement of the need for a broader balance sheet approach to address pervasive issues such as unemployment, poverty and inequality resonates with our socialist principles. We advocate for the strategic allocation of resources including those from the gold and foreign exchange contingency reserve account to finance targeted financial multistimuli aimed at alleviating poverty and fostering inclusive economic development.



Furthermore, we share the committee’s concerns regarding the exorbitant liquidity management costs associated with the utilisation of the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account, Gfecra. As proponents of the Prudential Financial Management we emphasise the importance of exploring

alternative avenues to mitigate this course while ensuring optimal resource allocation for the benefit of all South Africans.


Transparency and consultation are fundamental pillars of democratic governance. We support the committee’s call for enhanced consultation and transparency in the legislative process. Adequate time should be allocated for parliamentary scrutiny of Bills allowing for comprehensive consultation with stakeholders to ensure inclusive decision-making processes.



In light of these committee’s recommendations, we urge the Minister of Finance to prioritise the development of a comprehensive framework outlining the conditions for the utilisation of these Gfecra funds. This framework should be subjected to parliamentary scrutiny before the tabling of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement ensuring accountability and transparency in the allocation of public funds.



Additionally, we advocate for the inclusion of such Bills within the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement affording Parliament sufficient time for deliberation and consultation with relevant stakeholders. This approach aligns with our

commitment to democratic governance and ensures robust decision-making processes.


In conclusion, while we acknowledge the necessity of the Bill in addressing the immediate fiscal challenges, we reiterate the importance of adopting a holistic approach to economic management that prioritises sustainable development, social equity and inclusive growth. As the EFF, we remain steadfast in our pursuit of our economic emancipation for all South Africans. It’s about time that the SA Reserve Bank does something progressive in ensuring that it plays a role in alleviating poverty in the country. Indeed, these proposals go a long way towards ensuring that a socialist state that we envision as the EFF is realised. Yes, indeed, 29 May that’s the date for a socialist South Africa. We call all citizens of this country that know what is good for them to vote for the EFF. “Amandla!” [Power].




Inkosi E M Buthelezi: ... Siyabonga ithuba. Ulaka lwethu Sihlalo salubeka kulolu daba futhi saweseka lo Mthethosiviviywa, Ngakho ke ngeke sande ngomlomo njengembenge kodwa kubalulekile ukuba sikhumbule ukuthi isikweletu sezwe lethu kulindeleke ukuthi sikhule sifikelele ku 3,2 triliyoni

kulo nyaka olandelayo wezezimali. Ngaphezu kwalokho emnyakeni emibili elandela lokho singase seqe kumatriliyoni ayisithupha, nezindleko zokusikhokhela zenyuka ngokufanayo.


Iqiniso eliyingozi elokuthi ukuqoqwa kwemali engenayo ngaphansi kwahulumeni kuphansi kakhulu uma uqhathanisa nezindleko uhulumeni abhekene nazo. Nobeka izwe lethu ebucayini obukhulu.Kungalesi sizathu ukuthi iqembu leNkatha siweseke umqondo wokucaphuna kusikhwamangodla ukuze kwehliswe isikweletu sezwe lethu futhi sigweme ukuboleka imali emazweni angaphandle kanye nalabo ababolekisa ngezimali


Nokho Sihlalo lesi senzo akufanele sisishayele ihlombe ngoba siveza iqiniso lokuthi uhulumeni wehlulekile ukwenza izaba ezifanele ukuthi singafiki lesimo esizithola sikuso. Kusobala ukuthi uhulumeni akaqinisekisanga ngokwanele ukufinyelela ekwakhiweni kwamathuba emisebenzi emikhakheni eyahlukene ukuze kuqine umnotho wethu. Lo hulumeni akahlinzekanga ngokwanele ngamathuba omsebenzi ukuze futhi abantu bakithi bekwazi ukucosha amathuba besezokwazi ukubakhela ke, batheliswe ukuze izwe lizokwazi ukuqoqa imali eyanele ukuze lizokwazi ukubhekana nezidingo zalo. Ukuba lokhu bekufeziwe ngendlela besingeke sizithole kulesimo esifika kuso sokuthi sicosule esikhwameningodla sethu esisuke sibekelwe izikhathi ezithile.

Ngakho ngaphandle kokwandisa imizila yokwenza imali engenayo uhulumeni usazoqhubeka nokuzabalaza nokuhlangabezana nezibopho zethu zesikweletu kanye nokufeza izibopho zikahulumeni maqondana nezidingo zabantu kanye nenhlalakahle yabo. Ukungena ezindlekweni ngalendlela kanye nokucaphuna esikhwameningodla njengoba senzile yinkomba ecacile yokungakwazi kukahulumeni ukuphatha izimali ngendlela efanele. Le Ndlela yokwehluleka idela isidingo esisodwa sabantu bakithi sokuthi sigulule isimo sizibeke endaweni lapho kuzokwakhekha amathuba emisebenzi uhulumeni ekwazi ukuthi ahlawulise abantu okufanele bahawule izintela akwazi ukuqoqa imali eyanele ukuze akwazi ukubhekana nezidingo zakhe zonke okufanele ukuba azifeze njengeohulumeni uqine umnotho wethu.



Kuyacaca Sihlalo ukuthi zonke lezi zinto ekufanbele ukuthi zenziwe ukuze izwe lethu libuyele emzileni ziyokwenzeka kuphela uma kuguquka uhulumeni. Lo hulumeni uyokwazi ukufeza lokhu uhulumeni we-IFP, weNkatha yeNkululeko, uhulumeni onentshisekelo, uhulumeni wentando enhle yabantu. Iqembu le IFP liyakweseka ukuba sicosule lapha esikhwameningodla.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member.


Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, this is a very, very bad idea. This might very well be the worst idea this ANC regime has ever had. This decision will weaken South Africa’s position and its capability to stabilise our currency and our currency value.



The problem is that this government has, for the past decade, especially, been ignorant of the fact that there is no money. The fiscal position just worsened while the Budget deficit grew, but the ANC regime continued to spend as if money were unlimited and the country was prosperous. Luxuries just continued while the fiscal position weakened. This move now

... this decision shows how desperate government now is, and how bad our fiscal position really is. Just think about the fact ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Buthelezi! “Vala” [Close]. Sorry, hon Wessels. Please proceed.



Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you, Chair.

Even during COVID-19, government did not consider taking this decision. Why now? Because we are in a very weakened position. But these members to my right do not admit to that position; they continue. The Ministers of the ANC regime continue to spend money on wrong priorities. This government still allows exploitation. You still allow municipalities to misspend funds and misappropriate funds while you have to make this desperate move that is very short-sighted and unsustainable. This shows to the public the crisis that we are in. Thirty years later we are in a desperate crisis. It’s a decade of especially wrong decisions that brought us to this position.


We have to reject this Bill today for the future South Africa. This is shortsighted.





Want u sien, die grootste problem van die ANC-regime is dat hulle slegs belasting wil in, maar dit nie wil verdien nie. Die goue gans het opgehou eiers lê, want besighede maak toe, die privaatsektor sukkel, mense verarm, en daar is nie meer belastinginkomste nie. Maar u wil nog steeds u pond vleis eis. U wil hê mense moet betaal vir iets waaruit hulle geen waarde kry nie, want u lewer nie dienste nie.

Belastinggeld moet verdien word. As u begin om ‘n verantwoordelike regering te wees, om dienste te lewer en infrastruktuur instand te hou, dan sal daar meer belastinginkomste wees. Dan sal hierdie kortsigtige, gevaarlike besluite nie nodig wees nie. Ek dank u.



Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP shares concerns that have been expressed about the usage of R150 billion of the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account to offset the fiscal deficit.



Chairperson, there’s a saying in Afrikaans that says, “Benoude katte maak benoude spronge” [Those in trouble make strange decisions]. In other words, it’s like a cat on a hot tin roof. And so, we appreciate. The ACDP knows that we are in a very desperate financial and fiscal situation and that this is a way to try to alleviate that.



This account houses unrealised profits created by the fall in the value of the rand in the past decade against the foreign exchange held by the Bank. So, the premise is that the depreciating currency benefits this account and therefore should be accessed. Now, the obvious question is, what happens should the currency, as we all hope for, appreciates, and

should the SA Reserve Bank’s reserves drop below the acceptable limit? We hope it would appreciate because then the oil price and other imports will be far cheaper, and this will be a stimulus to the economy.


It’s interesting that the SA Reserve Bank initially argued that R100 billion of the R497 billion in this account tends to be impacted by market volatility and that running down the currencies or the country’s reserve buffers at a time of heightened global uncertainty may not be the best strategy.



But we appreciate that the SA Reserve Bank has now agreed to the proposal and that this settlement has now been reached. However, the ACDP believes that by accessing these funds the ANC government is using this account to shield it from the consequences of poor policy choices, corruption, wasteful expenditure and bad policy decisions. In our view, it’s like selling the family silver. It is very important for us to also appreciate that it creates a dangerous precedent going forward. What will prevent future governments wanting to access this account again and again, and then raiding the account’s reserve buffers until there’s nothing left? This, the ACDP will not support.

Lastly, we would like to thank the Appropriations Committee and the chairperson for their very hard work under a very, very difficult and limited timeframes. This needs to be considered in the new Parliament. I thank you.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chairperson, let me start by talking about the irony of today’s discussion. South Africa has a whole lot of gold which we don’t control but is in the hands of others. In Palestine, they have a whole lot of gas, which others are after and that is why they are destabilizing the country and colluding with the apartheid state of Israel so that they can get their hands on that gas. This is the reality and that is why I think it is time that the African continent must take back what is rightfully theirs, and take back control of their minerals, agricultural land, economies, and banks. I think the time has come for us to start looking at some state banks because the economy in South Africa remains controlled by a handful of people, and that is why the levels of poverty in this beautiful country and Africa will continue.



Now, my one concern, Minister, is that whilst we are supporting this Bill, it’s the fear that if we deplete all those reserves, what will happen next? So, what we should be doing is looking at alternative means of generating revenue. I

have said this before, and I want to say it again. There needs to be a link between local government, the Sars, and the National Treasury to be able to identify taxpayers in this country, there are two sets of taxpayers that are getting away. One is the foreign nationals, and the others are these big conglomerates through the illicit financial flows that show losses in South Africa and profits abroad. Now, if we can deal with those two aspects, I don’t believe we’ll have a problem in generating a lot more revenue, which will result in us not having to go to our resources. So, I think we need to put some measures in place to ensure ... right now, it’s like we want to take the blood out of the bone of those 15% that pay. Let’s go after those who don’t pay, particularly those foreign nationals and those big companies who know how to manipulate their books, like my friends on the left ... The illicit financial flows are leaving the country. So, these are

... Minister, we will be able to contain the challenges we face in the country. Yes, we support the Bill tabled here. Thank you.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair ...






... soos ons in Afrikaans sê, die spens is leeg ...


 ... and South Africa had to find money to balance the books. The hon speaker before me spoke about illicit financial flows and we know that 50% of our gross domestic product, GDP, is lost through illicit financial flows. If, for example, we managed to close all the loopholes, we would have had double the budget in the fiscus to address the shortages that we have. We also know that big business is largely responsible for these illicit financial flows, and they are robbing the man in the street, and sending their representatives to this Parliament to moan and groan about the action that had to be taken. We also know that a trillion or more in tax is being held by the banks because big corporations don’t want to invest in great jobs. It is the responsibility of the private sector to create jobs, and if they don’t create jobs, you must tell them to go to other countries. We don’t need the private sector that didn’t pay reparations after apartheid and continue to enrich themselves. So, Al Jama-ah understands why it was necessary to take the step. It is time that we take a serious look at the private sector, which has harmed our economy and our people. South Africa needs a better private sector. The best endeavours of the President to bring them on board have not succeeded. Since 1994, they’ve been making this

country ungovernable by manipulating the country. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.


Mr O M MATHAFA: House Chair, hon members, allow me to start by addressing the issue of the noun that was used by hon Wessels referring to the democratically elected government of the ANC as a regime. I think that’s a demonstration of his abomination towards our democracy. I say this because if you go and google what regime stands for, it stands for a government, especially an authoritarian one. Now, when you speak of an authoritarian government, you are speaking about a political system characterized by the rejection of democracy and political plurality. It involves the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting. Hon Wessels is sitting here because of democratic voting. Hon Wessels can debate on issues of the province and municipality because of the separation of powers in this government. I think you’re confusing our government with the apartheid government of the National Party pre-1990.



Hon Wessels further touches on the COVID-19 pandemic. I think he is refusing the fact that the COVID-19 pandemic has a continuing impact on the effects of the economic recovery of

the world. The recovery has particularly been slow in emerging and developing economies. Most of these economies, including South Africa, were unable to use government finances to support economic recovery to extend that which developing countries could. Consequently, overall levels of public debt across developing economies grew as they borrowed more to respond to the pandemic.


The South African economic growth rate has averaged 0,8% since 2012, which is far below what is required to address the high levels of joblessness and poverty. This means that the government is unable to collect sufficient revenue to fund developmental projects and key commitments of the social wage.



Over this period of low growth, government borrowing has ballooned to support rising expenditures. As a result, debt servicing costs are containing the economy and the public finances. These costs consume one in every R5 of revenue and absorb a larger share of the budget than basic education, social protection, or health. Gross government debt is currently 72,9% of GDP. We paid R356 billion in debt service costs. This has the effect of crowding out public spending and investment. In other words, the money used to service the debt could have been used to fund education, and health care, and

invest in massive infrastructure development. Gross loan debt to GDP trajectory, on the other hand, is about 16 percentage points higher than the median emerging market level. We are of the view that reducing the debt service fee and costs is critical for growth and development. The decision of the government to draw down R150 billion in the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account, GFECRA, balance will mitigate the fiscal trails by reducing borrowing by

R100 billion for the 2024-25 financial year, R25 billion for 2025-26, and R25 billion for the 2026-27 financial year. As a result, debt servicing costs will decline by R30,2 billion over the 2024 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, which is accompanied by a reduction in growth in the stock debt. The reduction in our country’s debt will enable the government to release funds to expand on investment in infrastructure for building roads, schools, hospitals, and water and sanitation projects, amongst others, which is critical for the creation of jobs.



As the Chairperson mentioned earlier, this is not the first time that the balance of the GFECRA has been settled between the Reserve Bank and the National Treasury. Therefore, the committee received my support from the public hearing on the passing of the Bill, except for concerns around the process,

for instance, Dr Sean Muller, a researcher and independent economist, raised several procedural and substantive concerns. He pointed out that it is illogical to process the GFECRA Bill separately from the fiscal framework as the finance committee has already taken a position on the balance of expenditure, revenue, and borrowing, as well as the proposed debt part. The Cosatu supported the Bill and its purpose to alleviate pressures on the country’s fiscus. At the same time, it recognized the need for SA Reserve Bank to maintain adequate reserve to protect the value of the rand and the economy, something that the Minister had touched on in his Budget Speech, whereby he committed that before the drawdown is affected, he will ensure that there are enough buffers to be able to be relied upon. I thank you, House Chair. The ANC supports the Bill.



Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.




Agreed to.




Bill read a first time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



(Second Reading debate)




There was no debate.




Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).




Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the majority Party that the Orders 15 and 16 on the Order Paper stand over.



Motion agreed to.







(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, can I request to read from here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr L M D Ntombela): Yes, hon Maake, you can go ahead.


Mr J J MAAKE: I am on a crush. Chairperson, an Ad Hoc Committee was established by this Parliament called the Ad Hoc Committee on the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill, GILAB, of 2023. The consideration of GILAB 2023 is a significance step in addressing short comings in South Africa’s intelligent services. It provides an opportunity to legislatively address recommendations, redesigning intelligence structures and improve accountability.



The proposed changes aim to align legislation with the recommendations of the Zondo Commission, the High-Level Review Panel into the State Security Agency and the Constitutional Court judgement to enhance the work of the intelligence services. This process signifies a commitment to creating transparent and accountable intelligence services for the benefit of all citizens.



The work of South Africa’s intelligence services is important as it informs policy that influence everyday life from the security measures implemented at ports of entry to the responses to public health crisis. For instance, intelligence

plays a critical role in cybersecurity, protecting individuals from data bridges and identify identity theft, preventing terrorist attacks and contribute to the stability of financial markets. To ensure that the essential services can fulfil their functions appropriately effective intelligence laws are needed. These laws will balance the proper functioning of intelligence services while upholding the rule of law and protecting civil liberties. These laws also establish clear boundaries, prevent overreach and foster trust between citizens and the government striking a balance between security imperatives and individual freedoms.


The establishment of SA Airways, SAA, through a Presidential Proclamation in 2009 was irregular deviating from constitutional requirements. Despite subsequent legislative amendments challenges persisted leading to the formation of High-Level Review Panel in 2018 to address issues within SAA.



The General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill, GILAB, 2023, seeks to implement the recommendations of the High-level Review Panel by undoing the SAA and creating distinct domestic and foreign intelligence services clarifying mandates and addressing legal and procedural short comings. It aims to enhance accountability compliance with Constitutional Court

judgements and regulations of intelligence activities. In executing its legislative mandate Parliament gathered public input into the Bill. Public participation was done in five provinces. The Ad Hoc Committee received over 23 000 written submissions. The committee also had stakeholders doing oral submissions. I submit. Thank you very much.



There was no debate.




Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party that the Report be adopted. Thank you.



Declarations of vote:


Ms D KOHLER: There have been many comments on how this Ad Hoc Committee has rushed this Bill put this into perspectives. For the past eight years, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence had asked for the Cabinet to produce the Bill.


Since I was assigned to the JSEI five years ago, the committee continue to do so with zero success. It seems the Cabinet feel the stage is core, simple be retained by ignoring us. To be reminded this Bill is needed to reverse some of the most agreed activities of the dark Zuma years domestic and foreign

intelligence had been irregularly lump together and refocuses to protect the single man rather than to protect our country.


What we have achieved yet is to fix that and much more. For example, the inspector general who does oversight over the SAA had staff appointed by the SAA, finances are run by SAA and communications run by the SAA would not anymore. So, the JSCI which comprises only DA and ANC members put our foot down announced that we had enough in our February Budget speeches and proceeded to hand craft a Committee Bill. Then an allegedly version of the Cabinet made its way to unsuspecting and immediately infuriated public of the committee understand and finding the Cabinet deliver their version here in Parliament on the very day which in which we released our Committee Bill.



The committee members had read on the newspaper’s habits of our church, heads of NGOs will now have to undergo some sort of security vetting and obtained the so-called security clearance certificate. There was no indication of that this will entail what would happen should the church or NGO ahead had failed to obtain such a certificate would see the closing of our local markets, the local Anglican Church, the Chamber church perhaps. The public reacted as one mind expected

without washing hands hand grenade been lobbed amongst the pigeon in saint peters square. The AD Hoc Committee received well over 23 000 submissions subjecting towards the Cabinet proposed and quite rightly so.


It is not up to us as legislative to write laws to cover for the failings of our security services because one so-called church leaders’ space does congregate faces because the so- called church leaders is a rapist. So, all churches must go through this. It is up to crimes intelligence to do their damn job.



I questioned the latest Minister of our committee honest live on TV so that the protection has been locked on the JSCI room. How they could withdraw from the Bill containing such obviously unconstitutional process. I have got the meandering story how someone had leaked it. We think how they did either way when it arrived in Parliament. The Constitutional Law advisors send it straight back to have those clauses taken out. It came back with those out, but even broad and more religious clause inserted which gave the SAA free ramp to speak whether they wish whenever they wish. They packed the belonging in Zuma years taking a big step towards a totally authoritarian state.

I seem to have said over my dead body a great deal of late. So, we went through every process meticulously being led in this Cabinet Bill is the reality for what has been proposed across the country. We take out every single threatening unconstitutional fail and basically replaced it with our committee Bill. We have gone through it with word by word checking and double checking each will pass constitutional master while equally allowing the various services to do their job of protecting the country. We have scrutinised the AmaBhungane judgement and ensure that every quote and instruction is compiled with. What is before you represent 24 hours day of a months. We move heaven and earth to ensure it comes to National Assembly today then goes through the NCOP processes in the Sixth Parliament.



Many of the members of the JSCI will then be new and not being aware of what we have gone through, how er as a committee fight for professional staff, how we today work with the team unmatched to another committee despite having been sidelined for so long.



We have turned the committee around over the past five and fears by those long for the era of unfitted looting. The Bill before the House today is what is needed to reverse the evils

of those truly all for years stalls, safeguards to protect our democracy and we have covered every conservable base guarded by the numerous reports when experts revealed the merit shortcomings of many states’ security agency. Sadly, a week ago, your force removes largest necessary clauses calling for Deputy of and JSEI, Chair, but I am sure there would be introduced in the Bill when it lands on the President desk who that President might be after the election.



This is a very elegant Bill and I welcome it and I welcome it and I think it deserves its place here in this House. I thank you.


Dr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, we must go on record that this is one of the laws that was rushed through and at a time when the Sixth Parliament is about to dissolve. The Mufamadi report which says there's the initial basis for this Bill has been part of public record since 2018. To await until the final hour in terms of this term of office for the Bill of this magnitude, right through processes at the time of serious electoral contestation is opportunistic to say the least.



Nonetheless, there are three key substantial amendments that the Bill proposes, securing the autonomy of the Office of the

Inspector General for Intelligence, thus strengthening oversight over intelligence services, separation of the foreign domestic branch of the intelligence services and the legislation or legalisation of bulk interception.


The EFF is alive to the abuse that characterised our intelligence services in favour of fighting internal political factional battles within the ruling party, as well as agents, and against opposition parties and civil society in general.

Also, key was the looting and corruption, particularly by top generals in the police and the military of secret accounts.


The Bill seeks to fight this abuse. However, the centre of their abuse over the years has been the weak oversight capability of both the Inspector General for Intelligence, IGI and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI of Parliament. We must therefore welcome the new proposed laws regarding the appropriation budget of the IGI not being subject to State Security Agency, SSA. We must welcome the amendments that empower the office of the IGI to determine the organogram and be responsible for appointments of personnel working in it and no longer the Minister.

What is missing, however, is the binding effect of the findings of the IGI. Ministers and heads of intelligence, entities and services are still not bound to comply with the findings of the IGI. This means the IGI will continue to lack the necessary teeth to bite. Inspector General for Intelligence is the key to the health, growth and sustainability of our democracy. It should be elevated to a Chapter 9 institution and in any democracy that does not see the significance of intelligence to its functionalities due to failure, infiltration and absolute dysfunctionality.



Furthermore, the JSCI would be of great a great deal if it were to be treated like Scopa, where its chairperson who at the moment is wrongly appointed by the President of the Republic, Speaker and Chairs of Parliament must be a Member of Parliament, MP who is not from the ruling party. An amendment, at least to this section on the appointment of the of the committee chair, should have been affected to make sure that the JSCI Chair is elected also from amongst Members of Parliament, like any other committee of Parliament.



A key development also lies with access to the Auditor-General to secret accounts for the intelligence service to secure maximum accountability. There has been massive evidence of the

looting of funds meant for intelligence and many who were caught with their hands in the cookie jar, have not yet been prosecuted.


Chair, this Bill is also before us during a time when ample evidence of changing international balance of forces in favour of multipolar world is at play. In this changing environment our country has evidently become part of the key targets of imperialist organisations both of business and political nature, who seek regime change in favour of retaining the international status quo.


Key examples relate to the international stance on apartheid Israel and its ongoing genocide against Palestinians, and the growing strength of the Brics multinational organisation.

There is massive collaboration from our political circles within the country with wealthy Western foreign forces in particular, targeting our elections this year to try and generate an election outcome that will shift South Africa's ethical, moral and historically correct position on Palestine.


These activities will rely on complex money networks to allow foreign meddling in our elections. At this stage, this is solely based on funding, indoctrination and propaganda. This

is basically ... [Interjections.] ... which requires strong intelligence services, and these laws guarantee as a point of departure that particular strengthening of our intelligence

... [Interjections.] ... for political functionalism to guaranteeing and securing our democracy. We welcome the Bill. Thank you.



Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Chair, as legislators, it is our duty to protect the constitutional rights of privacy, dignity and freedom of speech. The conflict between censorship and freedom is an ongoing challenge, and we must ensure that government does not have unchecked powers to monitor citizens’ communications under the guise of national security.



The proposed Bill will allow government to monitor all South African citizens’ telephone conversations, emails, private message and services and web browsing logs. If it can be justified as a foreign and complicit component, while we understand the need for surveillance and exceptional circumstances, we urge that more significant checks and balances be put in place to ensure the lawfulness and necessary oversight and accountability of such invasions of citizens’ rights to privacy.

In discussion between the SSA and the portfolio committee, both the SSA and portfolio committee representatives stated that both opportunities and threats could be monitored by the SSA. This is concerning as intelligence services should only be used in exceptional cases when the country is under a legitimate threat. Normalising their use in every government operation such as scouting of opportunities undermines and threatens our democracy.



The Bill aims to legalise power surveillance of communication monitoring in South Africa, but it fails in several aspects, including being vague and ambiguous in certain sections of the definitions of the draft. This will lead to uncertainty in the event of legal challenges and the Bill should be further amended to bring greater legal certainty to its provision.



The government should explain why this legislation is being rushed through when there is little known threat currently to our state and security. In the interest of the nation's interest of our country and responsible and law-abiding citizens in kept instructions that are political. The IFP supports the report. Thank you.



Mr W W WESSELS: No declaration. Thank you, Chair.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP appreciates that the Bill before the House is a vast improvement on the leaked Cabinet Bill and seeks to undo the worst conduct during the Zuma years when intelligence services were abused to protect one man, former President Zuma, rather than the country. And it proposes revised intelligence services based on the recommendations of the presidential High Level Review Panel Report, the White Paper on intelligence and international benchmarks studies.


It also responds to various court challenges, court rulings such as the February 2021 Constitutional Court ruling on bulk and targeted interception, and it deals with issues of the Zondo Commission and these issues, the ACDP supports.



As was alluded to, churches and other faith-based organisations were outraged that they and in fact all non- governmental organisations, NGOs, would have to undergo some sort of security vetting as contained in the leaked Cabinet Bill. This resulted in thousands of submissions being made to the ad hoc committee from churches and other faith-based organisations who were concerned that they would have to be subject to vetting. Now, where did this ludicrous and unconstitutional clause come from and how could it ever be

implemented given the backlog that the genuine vetting of public officials has at the moment?


These objections resulted in these contentious clauses being removed, and this illustrates how churches and faith-based organisations can flex their muscles and have their voices heard to change legislation. Our churches were now very vigilant as were any other NGOs about any possible overreach of the state and by the state and possible state regulation of religion. Thus, whilst the Bill has been substantially improved.



Organisations such as Firearm Owners South Africa, FOSA that enjoys the support spanning various groups, various denominations, millions of South Africans were still concerned that key definitions such as persons or institutions of national security interests, definitions of the threat of national security and national security in general, when read with section 198 of the Constitution, are still over broad and that religious organisations who are engaged in lawful political activities, advocacy, protest, or dissent may still be caught in the wide dragnet of the Bill, despite actually not being any threat to national security.

These organisations suggested narrower definitions, which were regrettably not accepted and whilst we appreciate that the substantial significant amendments previable had these definitions been accepted, these concerns would have been addressed. I thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I think one of the things that we cannot deny is that we have not paid enough attention to intelligence in the country in the last 30 years, to such an extent that I think we currently find ourselves in a very risky situation. Based on the fact that South Africa has taken a stance, and the correct stance rightfully so in terms of the abuse of human rights in Israel, we have become the target and there will be a target to have regime change in South Africa, as alluded to by the EFF. I must agree with that. I think perhaps this Bill will go a long way in dealing with that.

However, very importantly I think ... You know I heard somebody comment about Saint Petersburg in Russia. Whoever might have committed any atrocities must be dealt with, with the contempt it deserves. Yet, at the same time I want to welcome the statement by the President of Russia who said he doesn’t need anybody else to do their investigation. They will do it themselves.

Strangely enough, if any of you noted that the USA said that they knew about this a while ago. Can you imagine that the best intelligence ... in the world knew there was something going to happen in Russia ... did nothing about it and allowed it to happen. So, you can see where this is heading to. If we do not pay serious attention to the issue of intelligence, that is basically what can happen in South Africa. We saw what happened in 2021 and we don't want a repeat of that. Now, we take note of the fact that there have been many objections and things of course, but let us welcome the amendments that are being put in place here.


The very important point that I think I want to make is that Israel had an influence on the apartheid government in South Africa pre-1994 and we have not broken that chain. It is very important that if we want to have control of our country, then we need to deal with that matter urgently. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's a very, very serious issue and we know without any doubt that Israel’s intelligence ... the USA’s intelligence can also interfere in the elections that will be taking place in 2024. These are oppressors that come from the same kind of ... with the same amount of blood, the same colour of their blood, if you can call it blood. They are no different to the DA and others, okay. So, I'm saying to you,

be mindful of that. Be mindful of who they have in the voting stations and things because they can very easily manipulate this with their intelligence. We will support this. Thank you very much.


Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, it is a bit disappointing that for such a very important Bill, only four political parties became members of the ad hoc committee, in spite of the fact that Parliament invited every political party to serve on this ad hoc committee. When Al Jama-ah saw that only three political parties responded — as you know we have only one seat in Parliament ... inshallah after the elections we will have 10 and then we can spread the word — we felt that this Intelligence Bill is so important that we had to find time to play a role. I would like to thank our members from Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape who made nearly

20 oral submissions before the committee. We are very happy that the Minister of intelligence and the department seriously considered our concerns and amendments to give the Inspector- General of Intelligence, IGI, more power and more independence. We would like to thank the Minister for going the extra mile to make sure that the IGI is not a lame duck.

The situation we are in now is that ... we know that part of the Convention for a Democratic South Africa, Codesa, agreement was that public servants would keep their jobs. So, many people in the intelligence services were from the previous apartheid regime and I think that is one of the reasons why we are not making much headway with regard to keeping the country safe. We are faced with a serious problem of regime change. Now, normally when you speak about regime change, you think about a military coup d’état, but this is a different kind of regime change where we find that the Zionists in America and England are funding political parties that stand with Israel and that are complicit in the genocide taking place in Gaza. It was my position that those political parties that stand with Israel and that are complicit in the genocide should not even be on the ballot box. We have two days to object to their party lists, especially those members on the party list who spoke about being complicit. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.



Mr B M HADEBE: Hon House Chair, we are here today to deal with a painful past but we must speak the truth and nothing else but the truth. In 2009, the civilian intelligence services were restructured through a presidential proclamation. This led to the amalgamation of the National Intelligence Agency,

NIA, and the SA Secret Service, Sass, into the State Security Agency, SSA. However, in terms of Section 199(4) of the Constitution, the state and the President can only restructure and regulate national intelligence through legislation.

Therefore, what happened in 2009 was irregular.




However, because we are a responsible and caring government, when His Excellency President Cyril Matamela Ramaphosa took office in 2018, he appointed Dr Sydney Mufamadi to chair a high level review panel into the SSA. Now, when the panel took over, they asked a very fundamental question. What went wrong? The panel had this to say about what went wrong. The amalgamation of the NIA and the Sass was a monumental blunder. It did not achieve its stated intention but created more problems than it solved. The SSA became, in effect, a cash cow for many of its members and external stakeholders. Parallel structures were created directly to serve the personal and political interests of the former President ... in some cases, relevant Ministers. That's what went wrong.



The panel, however, also noted that there are many things that are going right and there are many members doing their best in a very difficult environment. The panel therefore recommended the following. The creation of the SSA through a presidential

proclamation was irregular and therefore recommended that the SSA be separated into foreign and domestic services. It recommended that Ministers’ powers be reviewed to avoid too much interference in the administration and operations of the state. The National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, should be relocated to the Presidency. The panel further recommended that relevant amendments be made to deal explicitly with illegal orders, in other words the carrying out of unlawful orders and/or the issuing of illegal orders. It is clear and evident from the high level review panel’s findings that accountability in the intelligence services was compromised.





Bekukwamagida sibhekane, kwavula siguqe, kwampunzi edla emini.




Now, this Bill aims to re-establish an accountable service which is essential in a democratic context. This Bill will ensure that ordinary South Africans receive a more accountable government structure that spends its money and budget efficiently, accounts for its expenditure, executes its functions better, and assists in the safety and security of South Africans. The Bill also intends to reconstruct the

national intelligence services into a professional service which will respect and uphold the Constitution. South Africans stand to benefit a great deal if this Bill is signed into law as it highlights the importance of striking a balance between national security and the rights of individuals.



Now, during our public hearings we engaged various stakeholders. We went to Lephalale, we went to Tzaneen and we spoke with people in Dambuza, Pongola and eThekwini. We engaged residents of Umlazi, KwaMashu, Hout Bay and Imizamo Yethu. All of them raised some areas of concern when it came to the Bill, to mention but a few. They also raised issues and concerns with the nature in which there were vague ... and uncertainties in some of the definitions as contained in the Bill. They also raised issues about the independence of the IGI.



However, all those issues were dealt with by this committee and attended to thoroughly. We've left no stone unturned in ensuring that we deal with these issues. As things stand, all the issues in this Bill that were attended to were unanimously agreed upon by the ad hoc committee. Issues that were raised by the IFP are issues of the past because those issues were attended to by this ad hoc committee.

The most contentious issue was the issue of the interception of communication. I want to explain it in detail so that everyone understands and comprehends when we talk about the interception of communication because it has two dimensions. Firstly, we speak of targeted interception against a specific person or an entity. Secondly, there is bulk interception, and in this regard bulk interception happens only and exclusively outside the territory of South Africa. This is done primarily for the purpose of scanning the environment. It is not a targeted interception, hon member, mhlonishwa ndabezitha [hon chief]. It is exclusively bulk interception and only outside the boundaries of the country, and there are various platforms that are typically used for these purposes. If I were to mention but a few ... communication signals, images that are generated by typical satellite applications, electronic signals, radar intelligence and weapon systems. That is what is called bulk interception outside the country. The ANC moves for the adoption of this Bill. I thank you.



Question put.




Motion agreed to (Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.







(Second Reading)




There was no debate.



Bill read a second time (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).







(Consideration of Bill and Report)




There was no debate.





House Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:


That the Report be adopted.




Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.







(Second Reading debate)




The MINISTER OF SPORTS, ARTS AND CULTURE: House Chairperson, hon Members of Parliament and political parties present, to begin this debate on the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill our athletes have been flying the South Africa flag high at the African Games 2024 from 8–23 March 2024 in Acra, Ghana. Team South Africa wrapped up the campaign at the African Games by winning 106 medals - 26 gold medals, 32 silver medals and 48 bronze medals. May I request members of this hon House to please give a big round of applause to Team South Africa. It the third place we now temporary occupy in the medal table. I am saying temporary because we must strive to be number one to be on the right on the medal table above Egypt and Nigeria. Also, congratulate the Springbok Women’s Team on their narrow win of 15-13 over Spain in their season opener over the past Saturday.



To deal with an issue at hand today marks yet another historic milestone in the evolution of sporting movements with all its

tenants locally and globally. When we first heard of the disturbing news of South Africa’s noncompliance with the world’s antidoping body, we feared for the worse - firstly, the reputation risk and the embarrassment for the country; secondly, withdrawal of flags for the national teams and participation in continental and international tournaments; and thirdly, losing our status as an important player in drug- free sport and fair play. This is a role and status we must never take for granted as we have been influential in supporting institutionalisation of the antidoping instruments and ethos. To demonstrate our commitment and resolve to this end, we are the host of the World Antidoping Agency, Wada, region offices here in Cape Town. South Africa hosts the only drug test laboratory in Africa which is based in Mangaung in the University of Free State.



My predecessors, including Mr Balfour Ngconde and the late Makhenkesi Stofile, were members of the World Antidoping Agency, Wada, bord and vice presidents respectively. I am relieved and delighted today that in a typical South African character the spirit we took Wada notice in our strides and mobilise all arms of state, particularly the executive and the legislature, and the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport, Saids, to rectify the legislative framework to ensure compliance. It

has been all hands on deck since October 2023, burning the midnight oil working around the clock to ensure that we meet all milestones and deadlines to realise compliance and safeguard sport to avoid any catastrophe and embarrassment to the country.



The introduction therefore and consideration of this Bill is a testament to the resilient leadership and co-operation of all arms including the executive and the legislature, the sporting bodies, federations and the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport, Saids


Many amendments emanated from the definition section which has then a consequential effect on some of the provisions in the body of the Act. Section 17 of the Act, for example, is a major part of the drug Bill that rendered the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Act noncompliant. In consultation with the Wada the whole section 17 had to be repealed and replaced with a new section titled, result management. The other amendments were caused by different styles of legislative drafting. In South Africa, for example, we use to draft in singular and Wada insisted that certain words must be drafted in plural.

Whilst other amendments were results of change.

I must in this regard acknowledge the following leaders who played an important role for us to be here, namely, the President, the colleagues in Cabinet and other role-players particularly the portfolio committee as led by the chair, Beauty Dlulane and members of the portfolio committee, the acting director-general and her officials in the department. We have already written a letter to Wada indicating that we are ahead of the timelines. Subsequent to the letter he has written to the president of Wada, they have already put aside a date of the hearing, that is on 10 July, which we think that

10 July is late because today we are already adopting the Bill as Parliament.



The question many South Africans are asking is, how did we get here, and what are you doing about this? I have already appointed an investigator to establish how the lapse happened and the recommended remedial action. Consequence management will apply should it be established that negligence was responsible for the noncompliance.



As we prepare our role to Paris our teams can now perform better knowing that the issue of our national flag, which is a symbol of national unity, is no longer an issue which was an issue at the doorstep of the World Cup as we go to Paris as

well as India. This issue will today be addressed. Thank you very much, Chairperson.




Nksz B N DLULANE: Sihlalo weNdlu, mandibulise kuwe, ndibulise kumalungu ahloniphekileyo, aBaphathiswa nooSekela-Baphathiswa abakhoyo kule Ndlu, aMalungu ePalamente ngokulingana kwawo.

Ndithatha eli thuba njengoSihlalo weSebe lezeMidlalo, uBugcisa neNkcubeko. Namhlanje ndinxibe njengoMadlomo ndisithi kuni, ndiyabulela sizwe esimnyama, esenza ukuba ngowe-1997 ndibe lapha kule Palamente.


Ekuqalekeni kwesi sigaba (term) ndiye ndawaxelela amalungu ekomiti ewonke ngokulinganayo ukuba ngunyaka wam wokugqibela lo, ndithatha umhlalaphantsi. Ndiyababulela ooQhudeni, ooNgoza, ooMkhubukeli, ooMnisi bemvula abandenza ndanguMama uDlulane. Ndibulise ooDlomo, usapho lwakwa Duma Nkosi oluthe lwafana nosapho lwethu, lwenza ukuba xa sithe bhazalala sihamba amazwe, sihamba iinginqi ngeengingqi ...



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, on a point of order.




Nksz B N DLULANE: Sihamba iingingqi ngeengingqi, bona bahlala nabantwana bam.


Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, on a point of order.




Ms B N DLULANE: Can I take this opportunity ... [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Relax mama, relax.




Ms B N DLULANE: Can I also take to thank Minister Zizi Kodwa.






Ufike apha esinqeni, kodwa loo nto ayibonakali. Siyabulela.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Dlulane ...






... hlala phansi kancane.





The hand of hon Ndlozi is up. Hon Ndlozi.

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you very much Chair. There is a trend of abusing the items on the agenda, where members are becoming





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order hon Ndlozi?



An HON MEMBER: You are out of order Ndlozi.




Dr M Q NDLOZI: It is the point of relevance. The Rules are clear. When we are discussing matters on the Table, we must discuss orders on the Table.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you very much hon Ndlozi ...




... sikuzwile.




Dr M Q NDLOZI: People are telling us about career reason here.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is a point of debate now. That is a point of debate. Proceed hon Dlulane.

Ms B N DLULANE: On 22 September 2023, the World Anti-Doping Agency called Wada announced that the current South African legislation, the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Act 25 of 2006 is not compliant with the World Anti-Doping Code, and that South Africa would not be awarded the rights to host nor participate in the regional, continental and world championships and events that are organised by international bodies in sport. Another sanction to be employed by Wada, was that the South African flag would not be flown on the Olympic games as the Minister just said.



On 10 October 2023, the Sport Ministry alongside with South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport, Saids communicated its intention and commitment to lodge an urgent appeal to Wada about the decision, post the Wada announcement on 05 December 2023.





Silapha ke namhlanje ekubeni sisuka apha izolo oku ngoDisemba, sithi masibulele kuba siwuphumelelisile lo Mthetho-oyilwayo.

Asiwuphumelelisanga ngamandla ethu, sibulela iOfisi kaSihlalo weNdlu. Sibulela aBabhexeshi abaziiNtloko bamaqela onke ...




... for allowing us to sit during constituency days. We were sitting on Mondays, Tuesdays, Fridays and the rest. We are saying, thank you for supporting this because it was about the South African flag. It was not about any other thing.


As I continue, the Portfolio Committee on Sport, Arts and Culture convened an urgent with the national Department Sport, Arts and Culture as well as to seek clarity and update on the matter. Furthermore, the Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture and Saids affirmed that they will work tirelessly to amend the SA Institute for Drugs-Free Sport Amendment Bill accordingly.



In efforts to amend the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill, Saids as one of the key agents of the department and the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture had initiated a public hearing process where the stakeholders were invited to submit their inputs in a written and honorary manner. To ensure that no one is left behind, the portfolio committee also ensured that all relevant communities and stakeholders as well as national federations are invited for oral and written submissions.



This process was deemed to be one of the crucial steps for the department and the South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport

to amend this Wada Bill in order for it to comply with international standards. In ensuring that the Saids Amendment Bill is compliant, the Parliamentary Legal Advisor worked tirelessly. The Wada Legal Advisors worked tirelessly. The Department’s Legal Advisor which has three entities, were not sleeping, when they were doing this work which was to and from. When they were coming back to us and also us when we were interrogating them, we were certainly saying that even if you wake up at 6 am, these three entities, the department, the Wada, the Saids wanted the compliant issue to be vanished.



As we are speaking, we are aware that on 19 March 2024 the World Anti-Doping Agency confirmed that the proposed changes comply with the Code but are contingent on the portfolio committee’s approval of the Bill and the Bill wording. In efforts to ensure that Saids Bill conformed to the global standard, the department, Saids together with Parliamentary Legal Advisor effected the minor suggestion amended by the World Anti-Doping Agency on 20 March 2024. The South African government has demonstrated unwavering commitment to adhering to global standards for the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill.

We are pleased that the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport has always provided the service required to ensure compliance with anti-doping standards. Complying with the standards set by Wada is a requirement for athletes who participate in major international sport events such as Olympics and various world championships. Today we are here in front of this august House saying to you, on 20 March 2024, the Parliament Legal Advisor presented the proposed amendments as per the A-lists which were agreed to for the drafting of the Bill.


Consequently, on 22 March, the first set of troops of the Bill was sent to Saida. On the 25th, when others were doing their own constituencies, we were sitting again as this committee and we met to discuss the consideration and adoption of SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill. The majority of the members have adopted the Bill as presented. We are. requesting the House to support and endorse the adoption of SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill as drafted as it is now compliant with Wada.



IsiXhosa: Amandla!

Mr D JOSEPH: Hon House Chairperson the SA Institute for Drug- Free Sport Amendment Bill was introduced in the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture Portfolio Committee on 5 December and was tagged as a section 75 Bill. South Africa is associated to the World Anti-Doping Agency, Wada, with our domestic entity called SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport, Saids. The SA Institute for Drug-Free Sports Act 14 of 1997 and its amendments governed the doping codes and rules.



South Africa was informed via Saids our entity in October 2023 that we do not comply with the World Anti-Doping Code and further if we do not update our rules within the timeframe given by Wada, South Africa would face dire consequences which will include not being able to fly our flag or sing the National Anthem at international events.



Consultation between the department, the entity Saids and the Ministry and Wada went for months until Wada decided to issue South Africa a letter of noncompliance as well as the corrective action report. This letter which was a yellow card warning and the corrective action report which was a red card warning confirmed that the previous Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture did not understand the word consequences.

Given the current headlines we are not surprised that the ANC Ministers are similarly not aware of this concept, nor do they have the political will to promote good governance.


The Bill was widely advertised, and the committee received relevant submissions from organisations such as SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, SA Rugby Union, Saru, Body Building SA, Athletic SA and from Culture, Arts, Tourism Hospitality and Sport Sector and Education Authority.


Hon House Chairperson, the objective of the amendment is to support and strengthen both Acts previously passed by Parliament in promoting participation in sports that is free from the use of prohibited substance or methods intended to artificially enhance the performance of anyone participating in the sports environment.



The intention is also to promote fair play and to promote health and wellbeing of sports persons. The amendments are of technical nature which include changing words to comply with the definitions of the Principal Act, the Public Financial Management Act, testing with or without advanced notice, changing from a pure management to result management,

clarifying the independence of the independence doping hearing panel and the independence of the antidoping appeal board.


It clarifies the role of the Minister in appointing the appeal board and it clarifies the procedures to follow in connection with an appeal.



Archbishop Thabo Makgoba made a statement three weeks ago on shaping the public discourse and South Africa’s future and he said and I quote:


The archbishop reflected on the role of athletes and artists in society. He asked the question?



What roles would sports men and women play in our national conversations on politics, race and gender and society for the sake of the future of South Africa?


He said that public figures can play a role in directing the discourse and athletes with their fame and adoration they attract clearly posses the influence to advocate for the voiceless.

He added that when the marginalised voices and those who are living in poverty and those suffering from inadequate service delivery and inferior education see the issues and concerns reflected on the national discourse when it raised it is raised it empowers them.



The archbishop reflected to our Springbok Captain Siya Kolisi as an example. Many sports coaches have role models. We must stand up and speak out about the use of prohibited substances to boost their performance. More importantly these role models serve as beacons of hope for millions of most vulnerable South Africans. Strive for greater things because they have in them to conquer the world.



To the millions of sports lovers, the millions of sports women and sports men in various sporting codes to the millions of parents who take their children week-after-week to sports field on behalf of the DA, I say thank you for your contribution to build the ongoing nation-building project.


For sports as predecessors have recognised over the years, it is an essential component of our democratic project. It is indispensable for furthering understanding in our diverse society and to building bonds between players and athletes

that last a lifetime. However, and although we are proud that we have accomplished with this Bill and now brings us to closer to a world class antidoping jurisdiction, the context in which the need for this Bill rose in the first place unfortunately showed us once again that a better future for our beloved country does not lie with the ANC anymore.



A better future for sports lies with an alternative government and the only option to lead this alternative government and our country post29 May into the future is the DA. Although it is welcome development that this Bill allows for athletes to fly our National Flag and sing our anthem and allow for professional staff of Saids to sit with international bodies, it is a great pity that the ANC-led Ministry failed to be proactive in ensuring that the situation did not generate to the state. The Minister should have but neglected to be proactive in ensuring that the Bill was developed and taken through the parliamentary processes within the required time. Matters of such important as this should not be left until the clock has struck.


Hon House Chairperson, led me quote the Deputy Minister who said as per the minutes of 13 March 2024:

When Saids received the noncompliance report in October 2023, it was a sad day for sports in South Africa because it meant that the country would not be able to host international bodies.


The Minister here today said, we fear the worst. Following the hours of work in the committee, the hard work of its members and the input from various stakeholders despite the Minister’s tardiness this will sooner no longer be the case. South Africa’s sports people will once again be able to hold their heads high and compete on international stage without the stain of noncompliance on antidoping agency.



We know that it will make us proud again and we can only hope that we here today will feel proud as well. The DA supports the amendment Bill because we want to rescue South Africa from the sports embarrassment, and we want to rescue the nation at large on 29 May. I thank you very much.



Mr E MTHETHWA: Hon House Chairperson, the EFF confirms to have actively participated in the legislative process for the amendment of the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport Act of 1997. Indeed, where there is political love there is a will.

Therefore, we wish to commend the Portfolio Committee on Sport

Arts and Culture and other stakeholders that have displayed that the processes of amending laws can be attained in less than four months or reasonable time than the long and tedious processes that we have become accustomed to.


It is a sad reality that we can display such an efficiency just because there is international pressure that has been exerted by the World Anti-Doping Agency, Wada.



We have the Copyright and Performers Protection Bill that has taken almost seven years of taxpayer’s money and the longest in the history of amending Bills in South Africa. A clear display that the governing party does not care about the creative and cultural sector.


Be as it may though, the Bill amongst other things provides for an establishment of an institute of the National Antidoping Organisation in the Republic as state entity responsible for fighting doping in sports.



This provision is related to another that of an adoption of a centralised doping control programme responsible for testing athletes with or without notice. In our township lingo like in Fikile Mbalulas’ glorious days would be ...


... bhi! Sakubamba futhi!





For you never expected an unnotified testing. We also liked the fact that the Bill makes provisions for the use of prohibited substance in case where medical reasons exist for such use. And on condition that the need for such substance is reported to and sanctioned by the antidoping body.



Similarly, we welcome the establishment of Antidoping Appeal Board which provides a mechanism for athletes to appeal the decision of antidoping body. Taking into account of our history of exclusion here in the country and internationally. This Bill sets the standard for drug-free sport, but it is also taking into cognisance the needs of those who want to participate in sports but have certain medical conditions.



International sporting bodies such as those who vilified our own treasure athlete, Caster Semenya with regulations that perpetuate the ... [Inaudible.] ... scrutiny of women’s bodies in ways that are degrading and invasive of privacy on grounds that are scientifically unjustifiable, regulations that are incompatible with respect for women’s rights to bodily

integrity, freedom from cruelty, inhumane and degrading treatments, dignity and nondiscrimination can learn a lot from this Bill.


We are also pleased that the Bill provides for sanctions against sporting federations that do not put in place proper mechanism for dealing with doping.


The EFF therefore is in full support of mechanisms of cleaning up our sports to ensure that athletes with the best and natural ability can compete without having to resort to performance enhancing drugs.



It is for this reason informed by the broad support display by public participation in the amendment of this Bill that the EFF is convinced that the Bill is in the best interests of all stakeholders who made their own inputs and nodding to the changes made. As the EFF therefore we welcome the report and support the amendment Bill as tabled here in this august House.


IsiZulu: Masibonge.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson I am delivering this debate on behalf of hon Inkosi Luthuli. Hon Chairperson, the ills created through drug usage in South Africa are starting to take their place in destroying the fabric of our society. Once South Africa was a nation of hope and growth, our focus was to use sport as the vehicle for good. One that would build a population of substance free citizens. It is therefore concerning that this Bill comes as a mere response to recommendations made by the world Anti-Doping Agency and that the committee was pressed to make legislative changes within the period of four months.


Where has South Africa’s resolve to stop the scourge of drug usage gone? We should not be making any changes to merely avoid an embarrassing situation whereby sporting events would exclude us but rather have been proactive in our approach - by making recommendations to WADA on international best practice.



Drug usage in South Africa knows no boundaries. It causes harm not only to the individual but families and the principles of sportsmanship. We are exposed to the pandemic of gender-based violence, and we are aware that one of its causes are as a result of drug usage in the country. Yet, how different our lives would look if we took sports and a no-nonsense approach

to drug usage seriously. We would reduce our murders significantly. Maybe today, Lusanda Nkomo of Umkomaas would not be gone soon. She would be going to school and play with her friends. Her family would not be mourning her death at the hands of alleged murderer and drug addicts if the current government was committed to the cause of a better life for all.


Sports present a constructive avenue by which to generate a society that values life, a healthy life, a constructive and not destructive citizenry. One where we can live our constitutional ideals and build a country and world together. However, this does not seem to be the priority of a ruling party. We are still plagued by the drugs, yet budget cuts to the police and our poor border patrol capacity leaves South Africa vulnerable to well-organised cartels. Where has the will of the governing party gone? The answer is probably found in the pocket of the highest-paying drug cartel. It is well known that certain former youth leaders of the governing party are also benefiting from the illicit goods.



We are custodians of the public trust, and it is our duty to enact the legislation that safeguard the wellbeing of our citizens and upholds the values of fairness and integrity. The

South African Institution for Drug Free Sports Amendment Bill represents a step in the right direction. However, let’s not lose sight of the significant work that lies ahead of us to dismantle drug syndicates that trample on the lives and dreams of our people.



In closing, let us commit to being more proactive against the usage of drugs as a nation and offer a moment of silence for the senseless murder of a 10-year-old Lusanda Nkomo.




Ngelinye ilanga lungu elihloniphekile Sihlalo sise FreeState kwaqhamuka umuntu esedle izidakamizwa wase esethi:




Dumelang bomme le bontate ...





... voetsek.





Okukhombisa ukuthi le zidakamizwa bezimenzeni.

Mrs H DENNER: House Chair, the year 2023 was an enormous year for sport in South Africa. The Netball World Cup was held on South African soil with our ladies delivering a stellar performance on the court. The Protea Women’s Cricket team reached the final of the ICC Women’s T20 World Cup. Banyana Banyana qualified for the last-16 in the Women’s World Cup for the first time ever, Dricus du Plessis came even closer to the world title when he beat Robert Whittaker at the UFC290. And of course, the highlight of the past five years of South African sporting moments, was the Springboks winning the Webb Ellis Cup for the fourth time with their historic victory over New Zealand in the final on 28 October 2023. These sportsmen and women who played their hearts out for their country has done exponentially more for nation-building and social cohesion, than what the ANC government has ever done or will ever be able to do.





Want u sien, die suksesvolste nasiebouprojek in ons 30-jaar-oue demokrasie is die trots wat elke Suid-Afrikaner, ongeag ras, kultuur, sosio-ekonomiese agtergrond, geloof en oortuigings, ervaar wanneer ons soos een nasie die Bokke onder die vaandel van die Suid-Afrikaanse vlag ondersteun en met ons hoop, gebede en krete aanvuur om hierdie groot oorwinning te behaal.

En amper is ons hierdie voorreg ontneem, omdat die prioriteite van nóg ‘n ANC-staatsdepartement heeltemal verkeerd was.




Headlines like “Springboks and Proteas face national flag ban, after SA falls foul of world anti-doping code”, just before the quarter final of the Rugby World Cup and before the Cricket World Cup was due to start was a great embarrassment for the proudest Rugby and sporting nation in the world. That was because

the South African government did not meet a deadline to amend the then outdated Drug-Free Sport Act, the one on our table

today, to comply with the latest World Anti-Doping Code, Wada, that came into force in 2021 already.




Stappe wat reeds in 2021 geneem kon word, minimale


wetswysigings, soos ons in hierdie Wysigingswetsontwerp kan sien, om die wetgewing met die internasionale standaarde

vaartbelyn te maak, is agterweë gelaat, omdat hierdie regering nie in staat is om die korrekte prioriteite voorop te stel en hulle werk behoorlik tot die voordeel van die mense van Suid- Afrika te doen nie.

So sit ons toe met 10 dae om ’n wet te wysig, om te voldoen aan die World Anti-Doping Agency, WADA-standaard, om te verhoed dat ons nasionale trots onder ’n neutrale vlag sou moes deelneem. Laat ek net hier sê, ek dink nie die Bokke of Suid-Afrikaners sou hulle van stryk laat bring nie, maar die vernedering is egter onaanvaarbaar. Die haas wat inderhaas uit

’n hoed getrek moes word was reeds vernederend genoeg, maar het gelukkig gewerk.



Hierdie wetsontwerp is uiteindelik op 24 November 2023, ’n maand na die Rugby Wêreldbeker-eindstryd, eers in die

Parlement ter tafel gelê en na die komitee verwys.




Behalwe vir minimale wysigings is een substantiewe wysiging


ten opsigte van artikel 6 van die wysigingswet aangebring, ten einde onder meer billikheid in appélmeganismes te verseker en

die sogenaamde uitslagbestuur.




Hierdie wetsontwerp het die komitee minder as drie maande geneem om te wysig. Veertien vergaderings en openbare deelname, wat ingesluit het 11 mondelinge voorleggings en sewe skriftelike voorleggings van verskillende organisasies, is gehou. Waarom dit dus nie iewers sedert 2021 ingepas kon word nie, bewys presies my punt.

Ek hoor die Minister sê dat ondersoek na hierdie late ingestel sal word, maar dis te min en te laat, en is nie te wyte aan een persoon of ’n groep persone se oorsig nie, dis ’n institusionele probleem. Hierdie departement het gekies om tyd te mors met die ANC se gunsteling tydverdryf, naamlik kunsmatige transformasie in sport, in plaas daarvan om die regte, belangrike werk te prioritiseer.


Die mense van Suid-Afrika verdien werklik beter. Die tyd vir die ANC is verby. Ek dank u.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, let me start off by reminding this House that, 85 sportsmen and women have been massacred in Palestine. Of the 85, 55 of them are footballers, including 18 children and 37 teenagers. What is very clear, Chairperson, is that South Africa has not been compliant in terms of safes. However, I think that this measure that we are putting in place will ensure that we have complied we will be able to compete. Also, I think for us to be able to compete with the international community, we must ensure that there is grassroots sports development in the country.



In many countries, sports development falls under the local authority. Perhaps what we need to do with these

municipalities, many of whom are corrupt, should introduce the sports coach, pay for them and ensure, together with schools and the community, that they are able to develop sports that other means of income in the long term. We find that, particularly in many of our schools, only the privileged have the opportunity, those that go to these privileged schools, of course, have the opportunity, and those are the ones that make their mark in sports. But I think if we can ensure that the Basic Education, Sports, Arts and Culture, Health and Social Development Departments come together. We will be able to win the battle against failing in sports in the country. Some of our athletes, I think sportsmen and women have performed exceptionally well.



We will be having the Third Africa Youth Kungfu Championships taking place in February next year. Thanks to Kung Fu Champion M J Li, chairperson. He goes into every community, identify children from these families. You know, in the Western Cape particularly, life is a living hell for children in the Western Cape, in the Cape Flats because they ignore the children in the Western Cape.


If you are not white, there are no benefits. There are no facilities available to you. Now this champion goes out,

identifies them, takes them out, trains them and makes them into successful Kung Fu champions. Many of them have excelled exceptionally well. So having said that and having taken notes of the comments by the committee, we want to support it and we believe that it can only do good in the interest of sports in the country. And lastly, I want to say that I hear people again and again saying vote for this party, vote for that party. Do not forget to vote for Ahmed Munzoor Shaik Emam for change. Thank you very much.


Ms R C ADAMS: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC supports the South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport Amendment Bill because it averts risks for our sporting sector as wider consequences would lead to. South Africa would not be awarded the right to host or fly the South African flag regionally, continentally and world championships and events of organised by the major events organisation. South Africa’s flag would not be flown at the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games until South Africa’s institute for drugs free sport is reinstated.



The South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport representatives would not be allowed to hold any World Anti-Doping Agency, Wada offices or any position as a member of the Wada board, committee or other body. The South Africa’s Institute for

Drugs Free Sport would not be allowed to host any event or organisation or co-host or co-organisation for Wada. The South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport representatives would not be allowed to participate in any world Wada independent observer programme or Wada outreach programme or other Wada outreach activities.



The South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport will not receive any Wada funding either directly or indirectly relating to the development of specific activities or participation in specific programmes. The Department of Sports, Arts and Culture has taken significant steps towards strengthening anti-doping measures to promote growth in the sports sector. We believe that the proposed South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport Amendment Bill will help improve the effectiveness of anti-doping efforts. The world Anti- Doping Agency has compiled a corrective action report that identified outdated provision and non-compliant aspects in the current and need to be updated and amended.



The Bill established the SA Institute for Drug Free Sport as a public entity. The Institute is the National Anti-Doping Organization in the republic. Hon Chairperson, it is important to note that the Bill did not have any financial implications,

or the state or create any organization or personal implications for the department? Therefore, it does not impose any financial liabilities on the state.


The South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport is important and plays significant role in promoting clean and fair sports in South Africa. Its impact goes beyond athletes’ education, doping control and rule enforcement extending the legal advocacy, international collaboration, promotion of clean sports value and safeguarding athletes, health and performance. We want to express our appreciation for the promotion of clean sport values that South Africa Institute for Drug Free Sport sets promotes.



The SA Institute for Drug Free Sport is an organization that strives to uphold the law, the values of integrity, respect and fairness in sport by advocating for clean competition and ethical behaviour among athletes, coaches and stakeholders.

The SA Institute for Drug Free Drug Free Sport achieves this through various initiatives and outreach programmes that aim to instil sense of responsibility and accountability with the sporting community.

The Bill, as I highlighted the importance of good governance and accountability. The amendments made have improved the government structures in the SA Institute for Drug Free Sports safes, making decisions and making process related to anti- doping activity to be more transparent. Accountability and independence consist of stakeholder engagement and critical to ensure constant oversight and implementation in our sport.

This helps promote anti-doping governments and maintain a framework that effectively keep our sports clean.


We also call on SA Institute for Drug Free Sport to play a critical role in working with sports persons at a school-going age to ensure they develop an understanding of the dangers of doping. This is critical to develop a clean sporting culture at a young age and to protect them. Not passing this Bill will be a betrayal for our sportsperson and to promote our national identity as South Africans flag would not be flown.



Sports have played a significant role in our efforts to achieve social cohesion in nation building. Sports bring pride to the country and our flag has been lifted in the most competitive sport due to the brilliance of our players. We support the South African Institute for Drug Sport, Drug Free Sport Amendment Bill. I thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chairperson, we would like to congratulate the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture for making the Sixth Parliament proud in the many achievements that hon members have highlighted. Since the appointment of the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture things only got better. It is a pity that the issue with regard to non- compliance we are debating today fell through the cracks, but we would like to thank the portfolio committee for a job well done. We are on track to do even much better in sport in the Seventh Parliament. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.


Ms V P MALOMANE: Hon Chair, greetings to yourself, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members and fellow South Africans. The investment we have made as government and by the various social partners in the sports fraternity continues to yield positive outcomes as our national team and sports person succeed internationally. The recent World Cup victory and the third-place achievement of Bafana Bafana continue to inspire the nation to achieve greater outcomes in all its endeavours.



The vision of a democratic and prosperous nation requires the creation of equal opportunities for South Africans to realise their true potential. For this reason, the ANC in the

portfolio committee advanced the prioritisation of the Bill to protect the standing of our sports sector globally. Despite the differences in the veracity of noncompliance and the feasibility of meeting the initial World Anti-Doping Agency deadline, the department has swiftly taken adequate measures to ensure we are at the stage. I think maybe this is an answer to you, hon Denis Joseph.


We expect that the completion of South African Institute for Drug Free Sport Amendment Bill will reside in South Africa’s compliance, ending the legal arbitration of the matter. We must state that the World Anti-Doping Agency is happy with the amendment as it meets the required standards.



Fair competition is a fundamental principle of sports. The use of performance enhancing drugs by athletes gives them an unfair advantage and undermines the integrity of sports. Such practices are unacceptable and diminish the accomplishment of clean athletes. It is therefore critical that we align our legislation with the World Anti-Doping Agency code to ensure effective and standardised process. This indicates the Bill’s importance and role which involve engagements by the department, the committee, state, stakeholders and the general public.

The use of performance enhancing drugs raises ethical concerns. One such concern is whether the desire to win justifies the use of this drug. When sports are drug free ethical principle are upheld and success is achieved through natural talent, hard work and dedication, rather than artificial advantage.



Our Committee on Sports, Arts and Culture recognise the importance of public involvement and directly invited stakeholders from the sporting environment to comment on the Bill. We received 11 oral submissions and five non-substantive submissions indicating support for the Bill. Various stakeholders who submitted responses. Included Athletics SA, Body Building SA, Boxing SA, the Culture, Arts, Tourism, Hospitality and Sports Sector Training Authority, the Eastern Cape Academy of Sport, the Free State Academy of Sport, Love Life Trust, National Treasury and the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport.


It is important to mention that all parties involved rich consensus on the key aspects of the proposed changes.

According to the legal advice, ample time was given for feedback on the Bill. Thus, the consultation process was properly followed. The committee played an essential role.

Ensuring that the fundamental rights of athletes are safeguarded in doping-free sports, it is essential for promoting health fairness in athletes worldwide. When all stakeholders in the global sporting community work together, they can create an environment in which athletes can thrive and compete with integrity and dignity. It is important to provide athletes through education and awareness programmes regarding the dangers and consequences of doping. Athletes will be fully aware of their rights to compete in a fair and clean environment and understand the negative impact that doping can have on their health areas.


We commend our government for providing athletes with the necessary resources to make informed decision about their health and performance. This includes access to information, support services and medical assistance. Qualified medical professionals must be readily available to guide athletes on legal supplements, injury prevention and recovery strategies.



Our country has come far post apartheid, with transformation is in sport, creating equal opportunities for all South African sports persons. We have seen the promotion of and financial support for women’s sports, although more can be done, we appreciate the stride of our government.

It is imperative that we strongly advocate for the inclusion. Of LGBTQ+ individuals in sports by closely monitoring the responsiveness of sports policies to gender equity. We must ensure that women and LGBTQ+ individuals who are often neglected are given equal opportunities to participate in sports.



Drug-free sports promote equal opportunities for all athletes. When athletes compete on a level playing field, success is determined by the factors such as skills, strategy, and mental toughness rather than access to performance enhancing substances or techniques.


Hon Chair, let me speak to hon Sithole. Hon Sithole was speaking about fraud and corruption. I think the government that is leading, which is the African National Congress – the government of the ANC – has a toll-free number which is 0800 701 701, can you write that so that if there is anything wrong related to corruption or fraud you can report it to this.

Please report. Any South African can report to this number is there is corruption, and you don’t have to give your name.



I also want to urge all the South African that on 29 May they go out and vote for the African National Congress. Those who

won’t be in their voting districts by the date of 29, the IEC has issued a form called a 24A form. You have a right to go and fill that form so that on the day of the elections, wherever you are, you will be able to vote and not be denied the opportunity to vote. Let us use this opportunity to go and register when we are not going to be in our district, making sure that you register before 17 May so that you will be able, wherever you are, to vote so that you can vote the African National Congress. The African national Congress will lead ... [Time expired.] ... Amandla!




what has been exhibited by this short discussion is the power of sport. It is not a regular occurrence that this House agrees and adopt unanimously on anything. It is because of the power of sports and its ability to unite the people. We were driven by that anxiety for the past six months, working with the committee and the stakeholders, because we understood sports as a tool and an instrument to get us closer to the nation of our dream. Not because there is a date of 29 May coming. That day will come, I must indicate, and I am sure many of you will not be back. We will still be talking about sport because even post 29 you will still need sport.

Sport plays and important part in uniting our people. One would have imagined our national teams participating in some of the continental and global tournaments without a flag, without a national anthem. We know what a flag means – a flag is a symbol of identity. We have seen what it has done in the recent past. National anthem is a form of unity and therefore we want to thank everyone and everybody for uniting behind our sporting in this country, regardless of what happens on 29 May, this sport must continue to unite this country. Thank you very much.



Debate concluded.




Bill read a second time.







Mr A H M PAPO: Hon members, it is a privilege to introduce the report of the Joint Rules Committee today. The report deals with proposed amendments to Chapter 3, 4 and 5 of the Joint Rules 6th Edition.

The chapters deal with the joint committee system, the joint legislative process and process for the stopping of funds to provinces.


The purpose of the review of the joint rules was to incorporate and consolidate recently adopted joint rules, align the joint rules with recent jurisprudents affecting Parliament and incorporate innovations from the revised rules of the two Houses.


Submissions were referred to the Joint Rules Committee from the Constitutional Review Committee and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, while the Office of the Leader of Government Business made a submission during the 5th Parliament.



Some of the new joint rules passed during the 5th Parliament include: establishment of joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament, functions of joint Standing Committee on Defence, disruptions of joint sittings, standard operating procedures required in terms of joint Rule 14GA.

During the 6th Parliament joint rules were framed by the Speaker and the Chairperson for virtual and hybrid joint committee meetings.


There were several innovations drawn from the review of the NCOP and the NA rules processes. This include the refinement of joint rules for the membership of some joint committees such as the Joint Program Committee, the rules framed by the Presiding Officers for virtual and hybrid joint committee meetings are proposed for inclusion in Chapter 3.



Rules that are obsolete, such as the rules for this establishment, this established subcommittees of the Joint Rules Committee are recommend for deletion.



Recent jurisprudent regarding Parliament’s legislative processes has been incorporated into proposals for amendments to Chapter 4 of the Joint Rules. Rules related to mixed Bills are proposed for removal as they are no longer applicable to the legislative process.



The ability of joint committees to consider legislation and provided for in section 45(i)(b) of the Constitution, 1996, has been clarified and will be facilitated through the

establishment of the Joint Ad hoc Committees to be established as the need will arise in future.


The time period for comments to be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism is proposed for extension from three days to seven days. This will, no doubt, benefit committees and their ability to submit their informed views to the Joint Tagging Mechanism timelessly.



These proposals are all important initiatives which will support our evolution as a Parliament and will facilitate the smooth functioning of Parliament as it will allow for the voices of the people to influence legislative processes that will affect our country as a whole and give effect to some Parliament responsibilities contained in the Constitution in more innovative ways.


Indeed, they will facilitate our ability to advance the public interest to grow our democracy, give effect to the principle of unity in our diversity contained in the preamble of our Constitution and finally, bring about a better life for all South Africans.

Thank you. This is the introduction to the joint rules. Thank you very much.


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief of the Majority Party that they report be adopted.



Declarations of vote:


Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank the parliamentary staff for the immense amount of work they have done on these amendments. The amendments are quite extensive and comprehensive, and one cannot do justice to it in just a few minutes ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Sorry, hon Dr Lotriet. There’s an echo that is being disturbing. Please check that. Thank you.


Dr A LOTRIET: I will, therefore, be very brief about this because one cannot really give an indication of all the specific rules that we have amended.


Now, the amendments in Chapter 3 are mainly focused on the deletion of obsolete joint rules including the deletion of some obsolete structures as well as the incorporation of the

rules regarding virtual and hybrid joint meetings, something that we have had to deal with since 2020. And it also includes more specific procedural matters such as first meetings of joint committees, election of Chairpersons, terms of office for members of joint committees or subcommittees and the process for when Houses disagree on joint rules on the Joint Rules Committee.


There are, however, a few matters in Chapters 4 and 5 that we were concerned about when we did ... [Inaudible.] ... had the presentation and the discussions.



There was some uncertainty regarding mediation and the mediation committee because this is not something that we’ve had, really in the past. We’ve had, I think, one or two instances where it was necessary to have a mediation committee when there is a dispute between the different Houses regarding a Bill.



Now, the amendment we have now does provide more clarity because there was a difference between what the Constitution says and what the rules said. But we believe that there will be more clarity.

Another important issue is the role of the Leader of Government Business in the whole Bills process and then also the process to prevent the delay in the introduction of Bills and the time it takes to process Bills. I think today we have heard quite few with the debate on the basically the wadable. Because of delays, we’ve had ... we are sitting here for how long today because of Bills that could have been dealt with much sooner. So, hopefully these amendments to the rules will try and alleviate that problem.


A further concern that we raised is that of joint ad hoc committees dealing with Bills. We are concerned about the fact that it could be used as a quick way to quickly dispense with Bills and not go through all the processes that are required.



There’s a very specific reason why we have two Houses of Parliament and why Bills have to follow specific, separate processes before it can be adopted. And these Bills have the possibility that these two distinct processes can become conflated and diminish checks and balances provided for in the Constitution.



But Parliament’s legal services have indicated that the process, as stipulated in the rules, will now make provision

for the Joint Tagging Mechanism to be very circumspect before tagging a Bill to be dealt in a joint manner.


Now, we trust that this will, indeed, be the case, as the temptation will always be there to use these Bills and dealing with it in a joint fashion as a way to rush Bills through and to circumvent processes. We, as members, will have to be very vigilant.



Chairperson, the DA supports the report. Thank you.



Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chairperson, this report represents the culmination of inquiry into the update of the current joint rules of Parliament.



Chapter 3 to 5 were interrogated by the Joint Rules Committee and amendment agreed to in respect of proposed deletion of obsolete joint rules, incorporation of framed rules on virtual and hybrid joint committee meetings and other rules.



Matters requiring policy direction, several substantive procedural changes have occurred since the 6th edition of joint rules was issued in 2011, namely, the establishment of the Joint Standard Committee on the Financial Management of

Parliament in the 5th Parliament, the dissolution of the Parliamentary Oversight Authority.


Joint Committee on Ethics and Members Interest published a revised Code of Conduct for Members at the end of 4th Parliament. The revised code is currently being updated and changes in membership of respective House components of joint committees based on revision of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces Rules.



Importantly, this also incorporates the framed rules on virtual and hybrid joint committee meetings and other rules, as well as proposed amendments of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and changes in membership of respective House components of joint committees.



Based on the revision of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces Rules, Chairperson, besides the changes to be incorporated in the joint rules today, the IFP would like to request that each successive Parliament going forward refuse and update the rules according to the framework, needs and challenges of each successive Parliament.

Rules are not static but rather transformative and must be adjusted from time to time to bring certainty to parliamentary procedures.


The IFP supports the report. Thank you.




Ms G K TSEKE: House Chair, the lessons we must learn from the amendments tabled are that it does not assist Parliament and its decorum if we leave such amendments until the end of the parliamentary term. The fact that we receive policy documents to work through at the end of the parliamentary term shows us that we need to improve in the administration of Parliament. As political parties, we need to be calling and contributing amendments directly in a far more rigorous manner and not await Parliament’s administration to produce documents.



Hon members, the amendments in chapter three and four reflect a reality that as an institution in a number of instances, we have moved ahead of the Joint Rules. As the African National Congress, we have actively contributed to the amendments of Chapters Three to Five of the Joint Rules. In Chapter Three of the Joint Rules, we are making obsolete provisions that have not kept pace with the changes in the Fifth and Sixth Parliaments. We are tightening up the modus operandi of the

joint committees, a necessary matter. Many, including the parliamentary administration, would say that the changes are technical, nothing is technical in a political environment like Parliament. So, we are making these changes, which have political importance and have implications for how we as political parties will deal with each other in the future. The detailed outline in these amendments is necessary to avoid, at times the politically contrived interpretation of the Joint Rules we experience coming from some political parties.


Hon members, let me emphasise that in making amendments to the Join Rules, we are cementing authority of Parliament in regulating what can and cannot happen, precisely because political parties have their own interpretation of the Joint Rules. It becomes necessary to assert the authority of the Joint Rules.



The events of COVID-19 in 2020 have given the entire hybrid and virtual sessions of Parliament a new function. Things that we take for granted today did not exist at the beginning of the Sixth Parliament, and Chapter Three of the Joint Rules takes these changes into account. Equally, the Joint Committee on the Rules of Committee, its composition, powers and functions are also streamlined by the changes.

On the matter of the Joint Tagging Mechanism, we have long been very uncomfortable with the current arrangements, in particular Chairpersons who have the responsibility to steer legislations through Parliament are brought in at the end and are given three working days to respond. We have correctly amended this to seven working days. While the Presiding Officers are advised by the legal services of Parliament, we in turn interact with the Office of the Chief State Law Adviser as well as other support staff with legal competencies. The powers that the Joint Tagging Mechanism holds are immense and determine and shape the legislative process that will be followed in Parliament. The power of interpretation in a legal process becomes supreme in these matters, and this is where Chairs should be brought in.



In the Seventh Parliament, far more needs to be discussed on who should be in the Joint Tagging Mechanism, in particular what constitutes the rationale and the logic, the interpretation of legal precedence, what underpins legal interpretation, all of which results in why a particular Bill will become a section 75 or section 76 with all the consequences that flow from this. We have made amendments to Chapter Four of the Joint Legislative Processes, which again

is so fundamental to support the constitutional responsibilities of Parliament.


House Chair, we again reiterate that the Seventh Parliament will need to continue to address this. Certainly, the amendments in chapter four seeks to tighten up and address contradictions in the process and the entire ecosystem of the legislative drafting. The fact that deadlines for the receipt of draft legislations from the executive can be set in consultation with the Leader of Government Business and these deadlines get overrun and result in the situation we are confronted with today, as my colleague, the hon member from the DA said, “we have 55 Bills that we are still trying to deal with at the end of term of the Sixth Parliament.” This is nothing new and a repetition of what has happened before. So, things must change in the future.



On Chapter Five, Stopping of Funds to Provinces, the ANC welcomes the amendment which bring the role of Parliament and the establishment of an Ad Hoc Joint Committee on the intervention in the provincial funding. The ANC supports this report. Thank you, House Chair.



There was no debate.

Mr B A RADEBE moved: That the Report be adopted.




Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Al Jama-ah and African National Congress. Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.















Ms R M M LESOMA: Good evening, colleagues and Ministers and Deputy Ministers and fellow South Africans.




Siyathobeka kakhulu ukuma lapha kule Ndlu sizokhuluma ngokuchibiyela nokubuyekezwa kokuziphatha nokulawula le Ndlu e-National Assembly. Sizoyihlanganisa le mibiko emibili njengoba isibekiwe ngaphambili. Sithi eqinisweni ikakhulukazi ukuthi namhlanje sithula le mibiko iqondanisa nokulawula nokusebenza kokuhlala kwale Ndlu ezama ukuthi kube khona ukuxoxisana kanye nezingxoxo nokuxhumana, nazo zonke izinhla ezibalulekile ikakhulukazi ...




... the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud, as well as the legislative requisites.




Okokuqala ukuthi lo Mthetho ikomidi loMthetho lihlongoze ukuchibiyela imithetho yokulawula ukulethwa noma ukubuyiswa kwezicelo kule Ndlu. Siyazi ukuthi ekuqaleni umphakathi ubudlula njengempepho yona yokukhuluma nabantu abadala ukuthi kudlule kumalungu ePhalamende uma ngabe kulethwa iziphakamiso Yokuthi le Ndlu ibukane nazo. Lo Mthetho esiwubeka la namhlanje ukuthi ababe nalo ilungelo nabo lokuthi balibhalele ngqo iPhalamende ukuthi yini engabaphathi kahle futhi abafuna ukuthi lilicubungule. Okunye esikubekayo ukuthi akungabi

intambo ende kalayini ungazi ukuthi bazoyiphothula nini. Akube yizinsuku eziyi-90 okuyizinyanga ezintathu. Phakathi kwalokho baxumane nabo babazise ukuthi kuhamba kanjani ngendaba abasuke bayibikile. Okusho ukuthi lana siyamukela amalungu ePhalamende, imiphakathi, izinhla zomphakathi sesinelungelo sisawulawula sithathe isikhathi esingakanani ukuthi kuphothulwe izicelo ezibikiwe.Uma ngabe kunesidingo ihhovisi likaSomlomo wale Ndlu bese enikeza amakomidi aqinisekayo ukuthi abhekelelana nokuthi ukwengamela kwenziwa kanjani kulezo zicelo.




Hon House Chair, another matter that we have dealt with or that the Rules Committee of Parliament has dealt with is that it has taken a position or recommends that the rules for full participation of the National Assembly and possible amendment of government budgets provide for the Money Bills and Related Matters Act, which has been in force since 2009. However, certain processes in the Act required further work. Draft rules have been prepared and will be sent to the respective committees for policy input. The intention is to finalise the relevant regulations before the end of the Sixth Parliament’s term, which is why we are here today.

The final matter, item 23 on the Order Paper is a report on the study tour undertaken to the UK in 2023 to assess how the House of Commons oversees the Prime Minister’s Office. The study tour arose from a proposal that the National Assembly consider the possibility and practicality of a committee to scrutinise the South African Presidency. The study tour provided the delegation with an invaluable insight into international practices.



Based on the engagements, the Rules Committee noted that while we already have a comprehensive process in place to facilitate oversight, we must remain proactive and receptive about reform. The report also suggests that, in the case of the Presidency, the Seventh Parliament should consider which committee would be best placed to scrutinise the Presidency’s budget, regardless of the various mechanisms and bodies that oversee the Presidency, so to speak.



Hon House and hon members, these are all important initiatives which will support our evaluation of a Parliament that is responsive to voices of the people. Indeed, they will facilitate our ability to advance the public interest to grow and advance democracy.

In conclusion, we bring this report in all humility and urge South Africans to vote ANC and not make the mistake that others think they will make.



Sibonga kakhulu. Siyathobeka.





There was no debate.




Mr B A Radebe moved: That the Report be adopted.




Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Al Jama-ah and African National Congress.



Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.




Declarations of vote:

Dr A LOTRIET: House Chairperson, in this report, the Rules Committee make recommendations regarding a number of matters, and I would like to ... [Interjections.]


USIHLALO WENDLU (Mm. M G Boroto): Awa, mhlonitjhwa Mma Khawula, ngiyabawa. Angimuzwa uMma uLotriet lapha. Asiragele phambili.



Dr A LOTRIET: House Chair, I would like to highlight three matters, and this has to do with Parliament and the people that we serve. Parliament is supposed to be responsive to the needs of the people. We are supposed to listen to people but for too long we haven’t. So, it is a welcomed development that we are now looking at improving the processing of public petitions. If you look at the Order Paper for today, and right at the back you will find all the petitions that have been submitted. We don’t deal with them and we haven’t dealt with them for many years. We have petitions that have been submitted three to four years ago – nothing happens. So, we really hope that this development in the Rules will make sure that people’s voices are indeed heard and that their needs are heard by this Parliament.



The same goes for the follow-up with government undertakings from the floor of the House. We often here have Ministers who make certain undertakings specifically when we have oral

questions, and the question then is what happens? Is there anything action taken after that? We have no feedback on that.


Very important is the system to monitor House resolutions. We take resolutions in this House but we never follow up. We never have a report on the feedback of whether anything was indeed done. So, House Chairperson, we are in full support of this report as it will really improve us as Parliament to listen to the people, to react to the people and to know exactly what we have said and what has been done.



Lastly, on the trip to the United Kingdom. I was fortunate to be part of the delegation and it was indeed worthwhile to look at the different way in which, in their instance, the Prime Minister can be held to account and in our instance, it would be the President and luckily it will be a different President in the Seventh Parliament. We learnt valuable lessons there and hopefully this will be taken into the Seventh Parliament so that we have proper oversight and accountability. Thank you.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Presiding Officer, we view this final Act under pressure by this Parliament to try and amend the Rules of Parliament as a desperate act of a dead corpse to cast its

shadow into a tomorrow that it cannot be part of. This collective has failed to hold the executive accountable to make Parliament accessible to the public, has failed to exercise executive scrutiny and accountability on the Phala Phala matter, on the South African Airways, SAA, matter in relation to Minister Ghordan. You have lost the right to amend the Rules of parliament. Leave the Rules and let the Seventh Parliament rise on a new day and determine new Rules for itself. You can’t want to cast yourselves as a dying corpse and cast your shadow of your incompetence, of your inability to hold the executive accountable and become a true Parliament in relation with its consistency to the demands and the duties of the Constitution. You want to extend yourselves to a new collective. We reject this attempt, and we call on all other Members of Parliament to view this as a futile exercise, including that UK trip. It was a wasteful expenditure of Members of Parliament who are not interested as a collective to hold the executive accountable. You have failed as a collective, together with your Speaker who thinks she is above the law, presiding officers that are bias and constantly meddling in the interests of the ruling party. We don’t care for you and you must stop amending Rules. You have failed; you are a failed Parliament. Thank you very much.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chairperson, the Chief Whip of the IFP, hon Singh, went on this oversight trip but is currently at the IPU Assembly in Geneva. I will accordingly deliver the declaration on his behalf in this report which remarks are more focused on item 23 and they are as follows: The IFP has been demanding accountability from all members of the executive, including the President.


During the debate on Vote 1, the president, Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, lamented the fact that one was unable to scrutinise the Vote correctly. This call was followed up by hon Singh in the Rules Committee, arguing that it was constitutional to provide oversight over all established committees in Parliament.



After many interventions and continued persuasion, the hon Speaker Mapisa-Nqakula, recommended that one should look at how other parliaments conduct their oversight role. A desktop exercise was conducted and it was shown that the UK Parliament’s approach seemed to provide the best model for South Africa to adopt. An oversight trip was therefore facilitated, and this report contains the outcomes and recommendations for us to note and adopt respectfully.

What was very clear in the UK was the need to conduct oversight of the Prime Minister. Many discussions took place to determine the modalities of such oversight. The UK has a committee of chairpersons of portfolio committees that constitute the Oversight Committee of the Prime Minister. What was established beyond doubt is that there must be an oversight mechanism in our Parliament.


We need to develop this mechanism early in the Seventh Parliament and we, as the IFP, look forward to that. We should not have a situation again in the reply to Vote 1 where we will amend the fact that we do not have adequate oversight over the Vote.



In conclusion, we consider the steps that have been reached as a victory for the IFP and for the legacy of the Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi. May his soul rest in peace. The IFP supports the report for items 22 and 23 of today’s Order Paper. Thank you.



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, the FF Plus supports both reports. Thank you.



Mr S N SWART: The ACDP supports the report. Thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Hendricks?



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, Al Jama-ah has, in the Sixth Parliament, had some successes with petitions ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no. Hon Hendricks, I called for your party to present and there was no one. Already the ANC member was speaking. Can you all this to pass because he was already on the podium? Thank you. Proceed, hon ...


Mr A H M PAPO: We are presenting a report on the rule amendment and guidelines for petitions and on the UK study tour by the Rules Committee. Through the adoption of this report, the ANC politically welcomes the resolution of a long standing problem that Parliament as a whole has been sitting with for years. Our Constitution advances the concept of a people’s Parliament, one which the people of South Africa can look to to address their needs and interest, and one which will uphold their rights as enshrined in the Constitution.

Parliament exists in terms of the Constitution to represent the people and must ensure that the voices of the people are heard directly and that Parliament responds to issues that are brought to its attention by the people with its available resources. For many years Parliament has operated with one dedicated committee for petitions in the National Council of Provinces, and in the National Assembly, matters will be referred to portfolio committees.



The amendments seek to integrate Parliament’s petitions, practices and the processes so that Parliament access one Parliament and not two Houses when it comes to petitions. This will provide a common definition for a petition across Parliament, develop a standardised approach to petitions and make it easier for petitioners to have a common understanding of the processes and their roles within these processes.


Petitions must, in addition, be linked to Parliament’s monitoring and evaluation processes. When the people petition Parliament, they do so often as a last resort. Where they have not been able to have their rights attended to in another sphere of government. By the time they petitioned Parliament they are often frustrated and angry that a particular sphere of government has not responded to their needs. So, the people

look to and expect Parliament to assist them and correct that which they feel has not been addressed.


An analysis of the problem, statement of Parliament and petitions tells us that such petitions can and end up dragging on for years while being investigated. What we equally know is that over the years Parliament has seen a significant rise in the number of petitions submitted. It is a fact that there have also been complaints that Parliament takes a considerable amount of time to process petitions. In this context, Parliament has been looking at ways to enhance the processes of petitions, including the relevant procedures.



Therefore, in addressing the guidelines and ensuring compliance with the rules on petitions, this will address one of the challenges we have assisting petitioners before they submit instead of them having submitted assists the process and lessens frustrations. Knowing how to make up a petition and when one needs to go into a petition speeds up the processing of petitions. Guidelines on the submission of petitions is not the complete answer to the problem statement.



A long discussing in the Rules subcommittee has taken place on what mechanism would best be able to process petitions once

they reach Parliament. In this regard, we engaged with the updated petitions framework document as prepared by the NA Table Staff. The ANC was clear from the start that we did not need an ad hoc committee to do the processing of petitions, but rather that they be assigned to relevant committees in Parliament.



The establishment of a petitions office of officials tasked with the responsibility to process petitions is what will assist for a cohesive and efficient system as opposed to what currently exists. Such a collective of officials, in the form of Petitions Office, will be responsible for the administrative functioning of Parliament in response to petitions, importantly, they will validate petitions and make referrals for legal consideration where necessary and recommend on whether to proceed with the petition or not. All this will assist in the speeding up of processing of petitions

- our major problem statement.




Referrals will include relevance fears of government for additional information and of course, to appropriate parliamentary committees. For the ANC, the report reflects a progressive step forward in addressing a very important function of Parliament and we look forward to the Seventh

Parliament providing a more cohesive and co-ordinated approach in dealing with petitions.


We also present the report on the study tour to the UK, which was circulated. It is a comprehensive report, but it must be fair. Our evaluation and monitoring systems of South Africa advanced to the ones of the United Kingdom. There is also no country in the world where which, as a committee for the monitoring of the work of Prime Ministers or presidents. It was only that committee in the UK which, when you look at the report, you’ll see that our monitoring and evaluation portfolio committee is far advanced than the UK.



So, the first recommendation which the committee makes is that while the South African Parliament already has comprehensive procedures to facilitate oversight and accountability, there remain features of the rules and practices that could be enriched, as indicated in the previous report. The National Assembly should remain proactive and open to reform to support these systems and practices. In the case of oversight over the Presidency, the Portfolio Committee on Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation or its equivalent in the Seventh Parliament, be mandated to scrutinise the budget and spending of the Vote on

the President. These are the report recommendations adopted by the Rules Committee.


We do so because we know none of the parties here in this National Assembly said they are going to get 51% - none of them. So, they are only relying on pashmak mix masala of parties to come and remove the ANC, which is not going to happen. What they call a moonshot pack will not happen. The ANC will be back with a with a clear majority and will continue. Thank you very much.



Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).




Reports accordingly adopted.







Dr M M E TLHAPE: Hon members, on 02 September 2022, the National Assembly Rules Committee referred the matter of the conduct of some members who were physically removed from the sittings of 09 and 10 June 2022 debate on Budget Vote 1, the

Presidency, to the Powers and Privileges Committee for investigation.


As the members were physically removed from the Chamber, the circumstances of their removal were first referred to the subcommittee on physical removal of member from the Chamber for consideration in terms of the rules. The Report of the subcommittee was also referred to the committee for investigation and report. The committee was asked to enquire into whether the conduct of the affected members on 09 and 10 June 2022 constituted the contempt of Parliament in terms of the Powers Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, Act number 4 of 2004.



On 9 and 10 June 2022, hon members; A Matumba, W T I Mafanya, S Tambo, M K Montwedi, E N Ntlangwini, B Mathulelwa, P Marais, N N Chirwa and Y N Yako were physically removed from the Chamber and charged for committing conduct constituting contempt of Parliament. The members were physically removed from the Chamber for committing various breaches of rules including, refusing to withdraw unparliamentary remarks, to leave the Chamber when ordered to do so by the Speaker, and to leave the Chamber when approached by the Serjeant-at-arms as instructed by the Speaker.

House Chair, some of the members physically interfered with parliamentary officials who were instructed by the Speaker to remove members who had blatantly disobeyed the authority of the Speaker. They had to be immediately removed from the Chamber by the parliamentary protection services. The National Assembly Rule 214 subsection (2), require ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Bororto): ... order!



Dr M M E TLHAPE: ... team to investigate a matter referred to it relating to contempt of Parliament by a member in terms of the procedure containing the schedule of the Rules of the National Assembly and to Table its finding and commendations. If the committee finds the member guilty of contempt, it is required to recommend an appropriate penalty or penalties.

Notices of hearing and charges referred against the affected members were served on them through their attorneys on 22 September 2023. They were informed that the hearings would be held on 15 and 16 January and 12 and 14 March 2024.



Chairperson, briefly, the essence of the charges referred against the members were that, they willfully and intentionally failed or refused to comply with the instruction of the Speaker to withdraw unparliamentary remarks when

directed to do so by the Speaker, to leave the House when ordered to do so by the Speaker, improperly interfered or impeded the exercise or performance by the House of its functions, obstructed other members from proceeding with the meeting of the Assembly and improperly interfered with the performance by other members of their functions in the House.



Chairperson, some of their members interfered with the removal of members by the parliamentary officials. Hon members, the committee engaged with the evidence presented by the initiator which included the video footage of the incident, the unrevised Hansard and the sworn affidavits of the Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr M Xaso, and the acting Serjeant-at- arms, Mr T Maleme. It also heard the oral evidence of the only witness called by the initiator that of the Secretary of the National Assembly.


Chair, the committee found the evidence and arguments presented and forwarded by the initiator persuasive. The committee found that the affected members had disrupted and delayed proceedings beyond what was reasonable when members interject and heckle during debates, blatantly disregarded the rulings and authority of the Speaker by refusing to withdraw and unparliamentary remarks, to leave the House when ordered

to do so by the Speaker and the acting Serjeant-at-arms and had to be physically removed from the Chamber.


The committee found all the charged members guilty as charged. In light of the findings of the guilt against the affected members, the committee recommends that the National Assembly impose the following penalties with respect to the affected members. One, in order to apologise in person by all affected members in the House to the President, the Speaker and the people of South Africa as determined by the House as set out in section 12(5)(c) of the Act before 29 March 2024. Two, with respect to Ms Yako and Mr Mafanya, a fine equivalent to 50% of their salary ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... hon Tlhape, it is in the Report and unfortunately your time has expired.


Dr M M E TLHAPE: Thank you, Chairperson.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, members. Hon members, order, please. Order! Proceed.



Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move:

That the Report be adopted.




Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms D VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I will not be repetitive as the previous speaker dealt with the reports content. On 22 May 2019 during our swearing in ceremony in Parliament, we, as Members of the National Assembly took either an oath of office or solemn affirmation which reads as follows; and I quote:



I swear or solemnly affirm that I will be faithful to the Republic of South Africa and will obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other laws of the Republic, and I solemnly promise to perform my functions as a Member of the National Assembly to the best of my ability.


Chairperson, the same for persons filling a vacancy in the National Assembly would do so before a Presiding Officer of the Assembly. After two previous cases against members of the EFF we again today have to act against four members of the same party on incident on 9 June 2022 and 9 members for an incident the next day on 10 June 2022. The continuous charges against members of the same party have now proven that the taking of an oath of office or solemn affirmation has no meaning to them and that it is merely a tick-box exercise.

The claim by members of this party that they have rights to be in plenaries to represent their constituents can never ever supersede the rights of all the other parties’ members and the public listening to us. We must respect the undertaking to serve and follow the Constitution, laws and rules of the National Assembly. Colleagues, this is not how hon Members of Parliament should behave. We should at all times be conscious that our responsibilities are to serve and be the voice of the people. So, members, if you do not want to be removed from the Chamber, touched by any officer, not appearing in front of the Powers and Privileges Committee and be sanctioned ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... order, members. Order!



Ms D VAN DER WALT: ... and to forfeit your income or be suspended or be told to apologise publicly, follow the rules. You all received a copy like us. It should never be about you, it is about being a Parliament to which all South Africans can look up to and trust. We support the recommendations as set out in the Report against all the charged members. Thank you.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: House Chairperson, the EFF is opposed to the adoption of this report. Two central reasons bear evidence of

the ridiculousness of its process and findings. Firstly, the committee that sat in the hearings never formed any quorum during the hearings themselves and was solely constituted by members of the ruling party whose interest cannot be denied in shielding the President from accountability. On the day of the adoption of the report or by the committee, members of the DA were there but did not vote because they too knew they had not participated during the hearings.



This matter was brought before the committee by the legal representative of the charged members but received no bearing. The same committee which never formed a quorum refused requests by the charged members for the Speaker to appear as a witness. This refusal is an utter contradiction to the rules of natural justice since the Speaker is a key complainant and her account of events or her rulings were used to charge the members and find them guilty.



The last reason why Parliament must reject this report beyond the technical fact of its failure to comply with basic conventions of natural justice and procedural fairness is the constitutional duty of Members of Parliament to exercise oversight on the executive, particularly the President. Let us remember, as the report states, the members were charged for

saying, and I quote: “the President is a money launderer,” that they accused the President, and I quote of criminal conduct. The latter statement regarding criminal conduct had been substantiated by a report of Parliament by the former Chief Justice. In this regard, the former Chief Justice states in section 263 of that report, and I quote:



Viewed as a whole, the information presented to the panel, prima facie, establishes that there was a deliberate intention not to investigate the commission of the crimes committed at Phala Phala, openly. The misconduct is based on violations of the provisions of section 96(2)(b) of the Constitution and wreck away committed to keep the investigation secret. The request to the Namibian police to handle the matter with discretion confirms this intention. The President abused his position as Head of State to have the matter investigated and sought the assistance of the Namibian President to apprehend a suspect.



A parliament that cares about its constitutional duty to hold the executive accountable would have followed up on these matters. Instead, this Parliament elected to turn its back on its constitutional duty despite these critical findings. The

MPs who stood that day were standing against abuse of the majority by the ANC and all other puppet parties which now are using Parliament to shield the executive from scrutiny and accountability. These MPs had a duty to stand their ground against the degenerating Parliament collective which insists on business as usual, shielding the President from accountability. What happens under the conditions in which MPs are suppressed? What happens when Parliament turns its back against its constitutional duty to hold the President accountable? Members of parliament are forced to protest. What happens when even the Rules are amended to make sure that the President, even during Sona, is not held accountable? Members of Parliament are left with no option but to protest in the interest of defying unjust rulings and unjust laws. We are proud of every Member of Parliament of the EFF that defied on that day. They will go down in history as having stood against injustice, unfair rulings, the abuse of majoritarianism, and puppet political parties in the opposition that sought to shield the President. Phala Phala should have been scrutinised. The President of the ANC should have been held accountable for his responsibility and role in the Phala Phala scandal. That is our submission. We reject this report and kudos to all those Members of Parliament. Thank you very much.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chairperson, integrity, self- accountability, discourse, negotiation, and tolerance are the principles of our democracy founded on and upon which this Parliament draws its existence.


It is then sad that we are here today, and recently, more frequently to discuss the conduct of members’ behaviour in this House. The accusations of disruption not only prevent other political parties who wish to contribute but also more critically, disrespect those citizens who have exercised their vote to listen to their political representatives in Parliament. Unfortunately, as much as we get hot under the collar in debate and know what is at stake with an unresponsive government, we cannot descend to vicious behaviour as seen and heard in video evidence, reports, and testimonies.



The degradation of public trust within this institution is further compounded when we disrespect the Chairperson. Our colleagues, the sanctity of this House, and the acts of throwing water bottles send clear messages to our people that violence is the solution to their frustration, which cannot be accepted. In our society today, it becomes much easier to descend into violence rather than build constructive

engagement and giving way to such acts further ignites similar behaviour amongst our communities. The source of gender-based violence may find its roots amongst the very acts of members in this House when violence becomes an acceptable means of engagement.



I wish to recall similar levels of disrespect by the same political party members displayed to former President Zuma when delivering the state of the nation address a few years ago. It was the founder of the IFP party, the late Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, who reminded us that it was the voting public that elected the governing party. If we were genuinely committed to democracy, we must hear him out. This was a display of leadership, the understanding and commitment to servant leadership, and the understanding of true democratic principles.



The assessment of the evidence presented and for the committee to ascertain whether contempt of Parliament had occurred, the committee reached a unanimous conclusion that all charged members had been found guilty. It is for the respect of the country and Parliament that the IFP will agree with the standardized sanction imposed on each member. We must appeal to all members that this is the place of debate,

representation of our public’s interest, and that of building a nation. We should never descend into physical acts of violence but rather exercise tolerance and respect.


We remind the EFF that respect is something that we must continue to offer to one another. But if they are unhappy with other office bearers that occupy Parliament, then they must join the opposition in ending the ills of the current government through elections.


In conclusion, let us reaffirm ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you.



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the foundation of constitutional democracy is political participation. When one chooses to form a political party to be elected to a legislature, Parliament, and institutions of democracy, then one has chosen to conventionally participate in politics, but when one then tries to bring unconventional political participation into the democratic institution or the institution of democracy, one made an error. One should never have entered conventional participation in politics because this institution is about debate. This institution is about vigorous debate, differing but getting to a resolution. It’s

not about protest and unconventional political participation. That’s outside and there is another realm for that.


The problem, House Chairperson, is that when the EFF, when the hon Dr Ndlozi refers to accountability and holding the executive to account, it’s ironic because the behaviour of the EFF - disruptions in this House is the failure or creates the failure of holding the executive to account. It’s to the detriment of accountability because it, firstly, takes away the trust and it’s to the detriment of the trust of the public out there in this institution. We are on an all-time low when it comes to the trust of South Africans in the institution of Parliament and that ... [Interjections.]



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Our people don’t trust white supremacists.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order. Hon Ndlozi, we don’t do that. You know what to do, and if you repeat it, you will be out of the platform. Proceed, hon member.



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, I would also request you to ask the member to withdraw the statement he just made.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What did he say? Let me come to it tomorrow, hon member. We will listen to the Hansard. Thank you.


Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you, House Chairperson, I appreciate it. We need to restore trust in this institution to hold the executive to account. We need to do that, but we need to strengthen this institution. Members’ behaviour disrupting this House and making it ... taking law and order completely away from it is not building that trust. When you participate in conventional politics and this institution of democracy, you need to respect law and order, and you can’t preach law and order out there if you don’t practise it here. You need Rules, and then all of us need to adhere to those Rules. What happens in this House, on many occasions, is unacceptable and the FFPlus supports this report. I thank you.



Mr G J SKOSANA: Chair, I think we are calm and we are going to provide clarity here. In light of the findings of guilt against the affected members, the committee recommends that the National Assembly impose the following penalties with respect to the affected members. Firstly, an order to apologise in person by all affected members in the House to the President, the Speaker and the people of South Africa, as

determined by the House, as set out in section 12(5)(c) of the Act before 29 March.




Dkt M Q NDLOZI: Angimazi nami ukuthi ubani lo? Ubuyaphi?






Me M R MOHLALA: Die hon member. Die hon member. [agb lid]




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I'm not going to allow that. No, no, no, hon Mohlala. I'm not going to call you again. Proceed, hon member.



Mr G J SKOSANA: Secondly, with respect to Ms Yako and Mr Mafanya, a fine equivalent to 50% of their salary and allowances in terms of section 12(5)(f) of the Act with effect from 1 April 2024.


Thirdly, for Ms Marais, Ms Mathulelwa, Mr Matumba and Ms Chirwa, a fine equivalent to 30 days of their salary and allowances in terms of section 12(5)(f) of the Act with effect from 1 April. Lastly, Chair ...

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson?




Ms N MHLONGO: ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mhlongo, I’m not going to call you again.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: We are not worried.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, hon member. [Interjections.]


Mr G J SKOSANA: Lastly ... [Inaudible.] ... to Ms Ntlangwini, Mr Tambo and Mr Montwedi without remuneration for a period of

30 days, whether or not the House ... or starting from 1 April to 30 April 2024.


Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, my hand is up.




Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Take it!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon member. Can we have the hon Ndlozi? His hand is up. Yes, hon Ndlozi?

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, the speaker on the platform ...





... ungunombolo bani kuhlu le-ANC lokuza la?






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That’s not a point of order.



An HON MEMBER: You’re out of order.




Dkt M Q NDLOZI: Ungunombolo bani?





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, that’s not a point of order. Proceed, sir.



Mr G J SKOSANA: Chair, I’ll repeat this final ... suspension of Ms Ntlangwini, Mr Tambo and Mr Montwedi without remuneration for a period of 30 days, whether or not the House or any of its committees are scheduled to meet during that period, starting from 1 April to 30 April 2024 ...

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Take it! Take it! You can have that salary.


Mr G J SKOSANA: ... as set out in section 12(5)(g) read with section 12(9) of the Act.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Wena, you’re suspended for the next ... [Inaudible.]



Mr G J SKOSANA: We just want to continue to clarify that the Powers and Privileges Committee has to operate without fear or favour, and arrive at a decision based on the balance of evidence and facts. The committee provides a fair process to articulate a defence to those who are charged. For the ANC ...


Ms O M C MAOTWE: Can you at least ... [Inaudible.] ... people that don’t exist.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mohlala and hon Hlonyana? Hon Mohlala, I’m reprimanding you for the second time. Please proceed.


Mr G J SKOSANA: For the ANC, we would expect from all members of the National Assembly as public representatives the highest

discipline, procedural correctness and an understanding of decorum and protocol. This is the minimum that is expected ... as we have become accustomed to.


However, in defence of the integrity of Parliament, we will not accept that individuals in the House from the EFF who show no respect for decorum or protocol ...


Dr M Q NDLOZI: [Inaudible.]




Mr G J SKOSANA: ... unless it is in their narrow interests. They show no respect for ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please take your seat. Can the ICT please remove the hon Dr Ndlozi from the platform? I’ve been saying that many times. Proceed, sir.


Mr G J SKOSANA: Thank you, Chair. They show no respect for ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mhlongo?



Ms K N F HLONYANA: Chair, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Wait! Hon Mhlongo, will you please leave the House? Hon Mhlongo, will you please leave the House? I told you that if you do that again, it won’t happen.


Ms N MHLONGO: Haibo! You did not!




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Don’t ask me for what. Leave the House.


Ms N MHLONGO: For what? For indicating that ... [Inaudible.]


... no respect for criminals? You are removing us because it’s time to vote.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mhlongo, please leave the House. Hon Mhlongo, you cannot talk to the Chairperson. I have ruled on you. Leave the House!


Ms N MHLONGO: For what, Chair? For what?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Serjeant-at-arms, please assist us by removing hon Mhlongo. I will come to you. I’m dealing with hon Mhlongo now. Take your seat. I’ll come to you after this.

Ms N MHLONGO: Chair, you are not fair. These people are shouting at us ... all the time you are keeping quiet.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hlonyana, I see your hand as well as yours, hon Yako. I’ll come back to you. Let’s finish what I’m busy with.



Ms N MHLONGO: We have no respect for criminals. That’s what you must know. We can never respect criminals. Cyril Ramaphosa

... hiding money ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I can’t allow this. I can’t allow this.



An HON MEMBER: Sit down!



Ms N MHLONGO: ... [Inaudible.] ... a mattress like he thinks he’s in the ... [Inaudible.] ... including the Speaker ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Switch off that thing!




Ms N MHLONGO: ... The way you steal, you even steal wigs. They even bribe you with a ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mhlongo, out of the House. Help us please.


Ms N MHLONGO: ... [Inaudible.] ... tsotsi! You are thugs! You are crooks! All the members of the ANC ... [Inaudible.] ... you are thugs! You are thugs ... [Inaudible.] You get bribed. You are even bribed with mixed portions and wigs. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mhlongo, please leave the House. I’m going to proceed with this matter. [Interjections.] Please call the protection services. Thank you. Can I now ... Hon Hlonyana was first. Wait! Wait! Hon Hlonyana was first. Hon members, I’m not going to take what was said. It is on Hansard because she switched on the microphones. I’m going to report it to the Rules Committee. Thank you very much. Proceed, hon Hlonyana.



Ms K N F HLONYANA: Chairperson, the rules say that you must warn a member. You did not warn hon Mbuyiseni. You didn’t warn him. You just asked him to be taken out. Can you please make sure that he comes back?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hlonyana, I’ve heard you. Let me respond. Is that a point of order? I told hon Ndlozi that if he repeats that I won’t allow it and that’s what I did. Thank you very much. I’m not on this issue any more and I’m not going to allow any interruptions. Proceed, hon member. [Interjections.] Is it on this matter? No, I have ruled already. I’m not taking any ... No, no, no, I’m not taking any ... hon Mohlala. Proceed, hon member. I have ruled. No, I have ruled. If you make a noise you will follow them.

Proceed, hon member.



Mr G J SKOSANA: Chair, as indicated we said that we are very calm, and we are providing clarity and order here. They show no respect for authority and insult the presiding officers. It’s what we have experienced and this is a fact. This is equally true of the report before us today. Over a two-day period in the same debate, 17 EFF members were physically removed from the Chamber in terms of the Assembly rules. We all sat in the House on the two respective days, the 9th and 10th of June, watching a disgraceful spectacle and leaving the nation asking questions about the conduct of public representatives. The facts and evidence show that 17 members of the EFF ... total disregard for the authority of the Chair when called to order by the Speaker for their grossly

disorderly conduct, the invasion of the floor and the Chamber of the House, the physical interference with the Serjeant-at- arms who was carrying out an instruction of the Speaker and the throwing of water bottles by members and staff ... [Interjections.]



Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, I’m listening.




Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: I just want to check with you how many ... salaries you guys are willing to take in the place of protecting Cyril?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That’s not a point of order.


Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Look now, this House is ... [Inaudible.]


... you protected Cyril. How many ... salaries are you aiming to take?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please, that’s not a point of order. Please take your seat, wherever you are.

Proceed, hon member.

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: We’ll do it again and again.




Mr G J SKOSANA: One thing that must be clear ... the rotten red tomatoes’ behaviour and smell must not be left unattended to disrupt the decorum of the House even with any ... [Inaudible.]



Ms K N F HLONYANA: Chairperson, on a point of order.



Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Remove that waistcoat of yours.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please take your seat.



Ms K N F HLONYANA: Can the speaker at the podium withdraw the rotten red tomatoes smelling, please? Can he please withdraw that? Can he please withdraw that? He must withdraw, Chairperson. You must protect us. [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, hon Hlonyana?

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: He must take off that old-fashioned waistcoat he has on. He must take off that old-fashioned waistcoat that he has on.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, don’t do that, hon Hlonyana. Listen members ...



Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: He doesn’t have ... [Inaudible.] ... style of ... [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... when we make rulings in this House, we know exactly what you are talking about. The hon member never referred to any member. He talked about tomatoes, and that is not a point of order. [Interjections.]



Mr T MOGALE: Oh! Okay, we are going to talk about braai packs. We are not referring to anyone. There are people who take braai packs. There are people who take wigs. They are bribed with braai packs. We are not referring to anyone.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mogale, that is out of order. Hon Mogale, you don’t take a microphone and start

speaking without my permission. Do that again and you are going out. Hon Adv Mkhwebane?


Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Chairperson, in terms of Rule 84, it says no member may use offensive, abusive, insulting, disrespectful, unbecoming and unparliamentary words or language, nor offensive, unbecoming or threatening gestures. Chairperson, you are dealing with the lives of nine members who have families to feed. He is referring to those members. Can he withdraw that because it is offensive?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhwebane, you are right in terms of Rule 84, but in this case no member was referred to and no withdrawal is needed. We proceed, hon member.



An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, I’m calling a point of order on you now. [Interjections.] I’m calling a point of order on you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Then I’m not going to respond to you.



Mr G J SKOSANA: Their strategy is to call for the postponement of hearings ... [Inaudible.] ... senior presiding officer.

They want to evade disciplinary hearings. They want to attack parliamentary procedures. They are dreaming for a delay and they are dreaming for another spectacle. They claim that the DA and ANC are political opponents that decide their fate. It is important that we place on record that in the interdict application to the High Court to prevent the disciplinary hearings from continuing, the judge dismissed it and gave the go-ahead for the hearings to proceed. On the issue of the Speaker ...


Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: We hold Cyril to account ... [Inaudible.]


... in this House. Take your salaries.




Mr G J SKOSANA: ... which was also central to the interdict application, was also dismissed.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, wait. Can the ICT remove hon Ntlangwini please? Proceed.


Mr G J SKOSANA: With regard to the composition of the committee, members confirmed that committees are constituted in terms of the principle of proportional representation, and to date there has been no finding by a court against these rules of the Assembly. So, here we have the EFF grossly

disrupting the House on two occasions and doing everything to try and get out of facing the disciplinary processes. In other words, a party believes that it can say what it wants and act how it wants, irrespective of the rules that they are a part of.



The committee, in its findings found that the affected members had disrupted and delayed proceedings beyond what was reasonable and when the members interjected ... heckled and bluntly disregarded the rules and the authority of the Speaker, refusing to withdraw unparliamentary remarks, refusing to leave the House when ordered to do so by the Speaker and the Serjeant-at-arms, and had to be physically removed from the Chamber.



South Africans, vote for the ANC on the 27th, 28th and 29th. Vote for the ANC that implements orderly procedures ...



Mr S TAMBO: Blow your nose and swallow your spit. We can’t hear you. Blow your nose.


Mr G J SKOSANA: ... and this is an example, which we saw with the Sona. There was ... [Inaudible.] ... and the ANC supports

the report and its recommendations in terms of the sanctions of the identified EFF ... [Interjections.] Amandla!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!



Ms K N F HLONYANA: Can I call an point of order, Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What’s your point of order, hon member? There is no speaker here at the podium. What point of order is that?



Ms K N F HLONYANA: It’s fine. Chairperson, in your ruling you said he was not specific in terms of a certain person but the report that we are all ... [Inaudible.] ... about here is a report that refers to the members of the EFF ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, that’s not how it works. Don’t come with your semantics. I understand the rules very well. Take your seat. That is not a point of order. No!



Question put.

Division demanded.




The House divided.



[Voting take in from minutes.]




Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly adopted.




The House adjourned at 19:58.