Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 19 Mar 2024


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary 


The House met at 10:00


House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


Ms N T MKHATSHWA: Citizens of our beloved South Africa, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. These words echo a call for international solidarity. These words resonate deeply with the spirit of transformation and liberation that runs through the veins of the African National Congress, imbued into our DNA is that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the people of Palestine.
The Freedom Charter states that there shall be peace and friendship amongst all our people. These values were practiced by millions of people around the world to build the international consensus that ended the iniquitous system apartheid. Our glorious history of resistance against oppression, was watered by tears of mothers in Lusaka, who housed our freedom fighters powered by students in the Netherlands, who successfully launched boycott campaigns against South African products and inspired by the sweet voices of Tracy Chapman, Anita Baker, Peter Gabriel and many others risking their careers to sing free Nelson Mandela.

We are the products and beneficiaries of all this energy we call international solidarity. I am a beneficiary of the efforts of activists across the lands, standing up against the apartheid regime in the quest for the liberation of all, for us to equally enjoy all universal human rights in the manner in which we do today. Born in 1993 on the 20th of August, I am Tintswalo. I am democracy! Living the reality of the crystallisation of the wars of resistance against colonial conquest of the formation of the African National Congress and a future espoused in the African claims, which envisioned the Bill of Rights. So, as a child of this democracy, as the Tintswalo one has the responsibility to use their voice to speak truth to power. Thus, we must remember that our freedom cannot be separated from that of the girl child in Afghanistan, whose right to basic education is being completely denied as we sit here today. And lest we be tempted to speak in muffled tones and those homophobic laws passed in Uganda that view members of the LGBTQIA community as lesser human beings. As we embrace the human rights that we enjoy today, we are reminded that ...

... umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu.



Citizens of South Africa be reminded that change in the course of justice is inevitable. Join me as I reflect on the life of ukhokho wami, umama kagogo wami, my great grandmother Maria Puleng Mthethwa born in 1925. Maria, a South African native, Sol Plaatje would say, was not actually a slave but a pariah in the land of her birth. Maria could not attend school because she had to work at the landlord’s home from the age of nine. She could not play like other children but had to see to the needs of the farmer’s children. Her family did not own the land they had to labour. She lived with a fear of torture for not producing a dompas, something I cannot relate to.
President Mbeki expresses that the reality of her birth condemned her to a village. Circumstances she did not choose confined her to a district. Owning a house was impossible, to be a doctor was beyond a dream. Maria, living through apartheid South Africa and democratic South will attest to the fact that her life changed with the advent of democracy on the glorious 27 of April 1994. The first Democratic election was a turning point in our country’s history, demonstrating our shared commitment to nation-building, freedom, social justice, and democracy. Determined, our foremothers ended centuries of colonial and apartheid rule and established a New South Africa founded on progressive constitutional democracy with equal freedoms and rights for all. It is indisputable that today the lives of millions have improved. We do, however, acknowledge that as long as poverty, injustice and gross inequality persist in our communities, none of us can truly rest. We need to do more. We need to do better, and we need to do it together.

Hon members, in 1994 South Africa had an estimated population of 43 million people. Today, we are 60 million people and I want you to take this into consideration as I make the following reflections. The Freedom Charter states that the doors of learning and culture shall be opened. In 1994, only
29,2 billion was allocated to education. This government has deliberately increased that to 480 billion in 2024 for education and learning. In 1996, only 3,4 million people had a matric. In 2020, two 14,1 million people are reported to have completed their matric. In 1994, below 1,5 million people had post-matric qualifications in South Africa, with the majority vastly being, of course, White South Africans. But today, in 2024 over 4,6 million South Africans have post-matric qualifications, be it a degree, a diploma, a master’s and a PhD - That is under this democratic government.

In 2014, the budget allocation towards NSFAS was just over R6 billion funding students through a loan. Today, over R53 billion has been allocated to fund over 1 million young people through NSFAS for free. In 1994, the budget for health was only 2,2 billion. Today, the budget for an inclusive health care system that all citizens enjoy is sitting at over R271 billion. In 2002, Aids-related deaths were 191 000.
Today, Aids-related deaths are well below 85 000. This is a result of the ANC implementing the largest HIV treatment in the world. In 1994, only 2,5 million people receive social protection, mostly the old age and most of a particular race. Today, the budget for a comprehensive social protection system intended to protect the dignity of all citizens is sitting at
R387 billion supporting 1,1 million persons with disabilities, supporting 13,4 million children, supporting 218 000 children in foster care, 404,1 million old Persons and further cushioning 18,8 million citizens requiring social relief of distress.

As the ANC, we commit to further improve education, health outcomes, and various social protections in order to overcome inequality and build the capabilities of all citizens. Before 1994, a black African boy, from the townships of the Eastern Cape could have never dreamed of being a rugby player, let alone a captain of the National Springbok Rugby team. Today, Siya Kolisi is a world-renowned sportsman 2 times, Rugby World Cup winning national captain. Today Bongi Msomi, a gender nonconforming black woman would not have imagined being the captain of the National Netball Protea Team in the year that South Africa would be the first country on the continent to host the Netball World Cup.

Before 1994, I’m not sure that we would have had a 37-year-old Doctor Sandile Cele acknowledged by the national system of innovation for discovering a COVID variant. President Mbeki over the weekend says anyone who disputes the evidence of progress in democratic South Africa is, in fact, lying. If you dispute the progress that this government has made over the last 30 years, you are lying. President Mbeki says, in fact, you’re living in another country, not South Africa, not the South Africa that we are living in, not the South Africa that Tintswalo is living in. Undoing years of oppression that denied custodians of this country their basic rights is, of course, not going to be an easy one. But to not try would be a crime against humanity. This government commits itself to rise to the occasion yet again, like it’s done in liberating this country and in governing it in the last 30 years. We admit our shortcomings so that we chart a brighter future. Citizens feel that we have been soft on corruption. That we do not care about the ordinary citizens, that some of our members have undermined this democracy by advancing their own selfish, personal interest, as recommended by the State Capture Commission. We are putting in place laws, institutions and practices that reduce the corruption of any sort and any scale. To date, the NPA Investigating Directorate has taken 34 state Capture and corruption cases to court involving over 200 accused persons.

The ANC is committed to restoring trust and confidence as the leader of the National Democratic Revolution and the fundamental driver of socioeconomic transformation in society.
Today we reflect on where we were before 1994 and see a stark contrast as we move towards 2024. These areas of progress are testament to the tireless efforts of the ANC in improving the lives of our people. The ANC calls on all citizens to join us in defending and advancing our freedom. Born eight months before the 1st Democratic Election, I am a product of the ANC’s commitment to social transformation, as a young Member of Parliament, perhaps hon Tinswalo, like President Mandela, I am convinced that the real makers of history. The real shapers of this democracy, the real people who will ensure that this democracy upholds their human rights, are the ordinary men and women of our country. It is your participation, citizens of South Africa, in every decision about the future that will guarantee true democracy and freedom, will this task be easy? No, but when the people are determined, President Mandela reminds us that they can achieve and overcome anything. I thank you, House Chair.

Ms B S MASANGO: Hon Chairperson, according to Chapter 10 of South Africa's Constitution and I quote:

“Everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.”
These words are lofty and noble, and when enacted are welcome with open arms. Regrettably, for millions of South Africans the majority of whom are the most vulnerable in our society, their reality does not reflect the lofty ideals contained in our Constitution. For them, respect and protection of dignity is reserved for the few connected cadres. Their day-to-day reality is the direct opposite.

Chairperson, let me spell it out for you, especially because today is the debate celebrating Human Rights Day. There is no dignity for the nearly 30 million South Africans who will go to bed hungry by next year. There is no dignity for the 27% of this country's children who are stunted. There is no dignity for the 81% of households that are skipping one meal a day.
There's definitely no dignity for older persons who are abused, raped and even killed because our police don't protect them.

Our Constitution highlights a number of services that must be rendered to vulnerable citizens who fall into any of the categories I have mentioned but aren't. Not only to restore their dignity, but to ensure they are supported to live normal lives. It is in the provision of those services that in the
last five years at least, we have seen the unprecedented flouting of human rights by the ANC government.

We see people sleeping outside SA Social Security Agency, Sassa offices and post offices, hoping and praying to get their social grants finalised so they can put food on their tables. They do so in vain. We hear harrowing stories of older persons whose grants are not paid for months with while their families starve. We visit young children forced to live alone who've become breadwinners with no assistance from government.

These are the people whom our Constitution should really protect. Instead, they live on the edge of the exorbitantly high cost of living abies created by the unfeeling and uncaring ANC government who has turned a blind eye to their tears.

Chairperson, it is for this reason that the DA has and will continue to put forward solutions to restore respect and protect the dignity of all South Africans. These include and are not limited to, extending the zero value added tax, VAT rated food items to include bone in chicken, wheat flour, margarine, baby food and tinned food, increasing the child support grant to South Africa's official poverty line, extending the child support grant to pregnant mothers to increase the chances of children being born healthy, extending the child support grant to children over the age of 18 until they pass their national senior certificate. These solutions will ensure that no South African faces the risk of going to bed hungry.

Chairperson, in the words of one of South Africa's foremost human rights advocates, and that is Helen Suzman, I quote:

“I stand for simple justice, equal opportunity and human rights, the indispensable elements in a in a democratic society and are well worth fighting for.”

The DA will use this simple truth to partner with all likeminded South Africans to turn these words into reality as we rescue South Africa come 21 May 2024.

Ms A M SIWISA: Hon Chair, 2024 marks 100 years of the birth of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe, who was born on the 5th of December 1924. The anti-pass campaign which was violently suppressed by the racist white minority regime was conceived, organised, and executed under the leadership of Robert Sobukwe and the Pan Africanist Congress.
Robert Sobukwe and his generation of freedom fighters had the most advanced concept of the struggle for liberation in the country and in the continent and envision the South Africa and the continent in which rights and human dignity would be non- dirigible and non-negotiable and central to every action of the policy of the state.

Sharpeville and Langa are painful reminders of what the struggle for emancipation meant to those who came before us, how far we have strayed from those objectives, it is a call for all political parties and activists to ask of themselves if we have all become complicit in aiding the liberal narrative of our struggle to have predominant discourse in South Africa since 1994.

In organising the anti-pass campaign, leaders like Sobukwe were clear that the racist regime will be all it could be to protect its interests and even kill those considered less human. Robert Sobukwe’s letter to Africans on the eve of the launch of the campaign demonstrates his unflinching commitment to the uprooting of colonialism and the introduction of a new Africanness socialist democracy. In that letter he wrote:
“This is not a game. The white rulers are going to be extremely ruthless. But we must meet their hysterical brutality with calm, iron determination. We are fighting for the noblest cause on earth, the liberation of mankind. They are fighting to retrench an outworn, anachronistic vile system of oppression. We represent progress. They represent decadence. We represent the fresh fragrance of flowers in bloom; they represent the rancid smell of decaying vegetation. We have the whole Continent on our side. We have history on our side. WE WILL WIN!”

Hon members, today we have seen the attributes of the regime that led to the massacre in Sharpeville and in Langa reincarcerated in the regime led now by black people from 1994. This is a regime that killed Andries Tatane for demonstrating for water in community. This is the regime that massacred mine workers in Marikana for merely demanding a living wage. This is the regime defends deeply entrenched with business interest. This is the regime that beats up and jails young people who demand access to institution of higher learning. This is the regime that has allowed this country to be a lawless country where over 13 000 women are raped every single quarter, and an average of 7 000 people are killed in every single quarter and where criminal activities such as
this one that happened in Phala Phala are defended by Parliament to prosecute authorities at the courts.

The regime indeed represents an unworn, anachronistic and a very vile system of oppression as Sobukwe characterises in the apartheid regime. The regime led by the ANC represents decadence. The EFF represents a fresh fragrance of flowers in bloom, they represent a rancid smell of decaying vegetation, we represent progress.

Only the EFF has not lost the sight of the objective of the struggle for the liberation of our people, whose main focus was decolonisation of this country and the entrenchment of fundamental human rights at the core of which is excess to the wealth of this country, economic liberation for all the return that there's a surprising colonial settlers expropriated from the natives.

The 2024 elections must determine whether South Africa is happy with the decadence of the ruling party, or want a new, uncompromising, unflinching commitment to recentering African life in everything, in every state and society in honour of Sobukwe and all of those brave men and women who paid the ultimate price for freedom.
South Africans must vote for job and land now. They must vote to end load shedding. And by the way, I'm housing some Tintswalos in my house because National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS denied them and money for accommodation. Thank you, Chair.

Mr V F HLABISA: Hon Chair, three decades ago, our collective struggle for liberation saw a Government of National Unity displace an abusive regime. We entered democracy deliberately ending an era of human rights abuse. We had secured a Constitution in which equality is the highest principle.

Thanks to the IFP, we had also secured a Bill of Rights. The IFP ensured that human rights abuses would never be justified under any circumstance by those in power.

To underline the centrality of human rights, the IFP's former president, Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, in his capacity as the Minister of Home Affairs, recommended to Cabinet that 21 March be set aside to commemorate the Sharpeville Massacre. It became known as the Human Rights Day. It is the IFP's wish that this day should transcend mere commemoration to become the embodiment of behaviour that needs to be reflected in
every public office in our country in the protection of the Constitution.

Thirty years into democracy, we pause to evaluate whether the government has honoured its commitment to protect human rights. If this was asked in 1999, the answer would be a good yes. Through the Government of National Unity, we transformed the full body of legislation towards honouring human rights. Through the collective efforts of the Government of National Unity, South Africa's crime rate and unemployment rate decreased year after year. Our economy began growing at a steady pace, all of which translated into honouring human rights. There is no dispute of progress done since 1994, but we should have done more.

But in 2024, while much has been done towards advancing and protecting human rights, things have turned upside down.

The unwarranted has become warranted, and vice versa. The egocentrism of self-saving and theft have become the order of the day. South Africa is increasingly becoming an unequal society. The gap between the rich and the poor is growing every day. Only if we can defeat the disease of corruption, crime, joblessness, gender-based violence and abuse, a weak
economy, and impunity to transgressors will more be achieved by this Parliament and the government. As we celebrate the respect of human rights, we must instil respect for the freedom of speech, as long as one does not denigrate other people.

The forceful grabbing of the microphone at KwaCeza in Nongoma was uncalled for, and a disappointment in front of the king and the Head of State. Our leaders must grow, must be matured, and must be tolerant. As the president of the IFP, who was present at the event, ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members! Hon members, order!

Mr V F HLABISA: ... that the violence that ensued after the function ended remains unacceptable. Up to now, we are patiently awaiting clarity as to how the IFP was dragged into the matter as the event was not an IFP event ... [Inaudibe.]
... wearing IFP regalia. Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members!


Umoya phansi.


Order, please. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party, order, please. Order! This is supposed to be a Human Rights Day debate. Order, hon members.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the hon Mkhatshwa says the progress made by the ANC government cannot be disputed, but what she leaves out, is that the progress that was made since 1994, has since been destroyed and reversed by the same ANC government. Let us look at the facts. In the last decade, the literacy rate of South Africans decreased, 82% of Grade 4 learners today cannot read. In the last decade, the number of water supply systems, which are in a critical state, increased by more than 10%. That is not progress. That’s the opposite.

In the last decade, functioning public hospitals have become completely dysfunctional. That’s not progress. People are dying in our public hospitals. The number of households facing food insecurities did not decrease but increased to more than
17 million facing hunger today. That is not progress. The ANC does not care about the dignity of ordinary South Africans. Your minds are behind bars. You are stuck in the past. That is
all you can talk about. You are stuck there, hon Chief Whip and you do not care that people are, today, suffering.

Today in 2024 people are suffering. Not in 1980, now, and it is because of your inadequacy. It’s because of your failed policies. Mother tongue education is disregarded by the ANC government and neglected. Basic access to adequate water supply is disregarded and a water crisis is looming. The ANC government was warned of an electricity crisis. What did you do? Nothing. You stole more.

You stole Eskom to such an extent that the crisis is even more and worse than the opposition predicted. The water crisis is going to be worse than we are today predicting because money has been stolen by the municipalities and by the cadres which should go to the maintenance of the water infrastructure. We have dysfunctional water systems in South Africa whilst we are a water-scarce country, but the ANC does not care. People are suffering because of a lack of basic water supply.

The ANC regime neglects public health. They do not care that people are suffering in public hospitals. The ANC regime allows corruption in the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, and then the hon member comes and boasts about
the number of students that get bursaries. How many more could have studied if it wasn’t for that corruption? We don’t need laws to rid this government of corruption. We need a new government. We need a new dispensation where actual human rights are respected and where there is actual service delivery, basic service delivery to the people out there, and not a power-hungry and corrupt government. On 29 May, South Africans can choose to restore human dignity and restore basic human rights. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, while the ACDP acknowledges that progress has been made in terms of our Constitution, in upholding the rule of law, and ensuring media freedom and the independence of the judiciary, the scorecard is dismal when it comes to justice, access to food, quality education and health care, decent housing and employment. The ANC government is becoming increasingly incompetent and incapable, rife with corruption, as admitted by the speaker from the ANC itself and serving its own narrow, personal and political interests.

We have 87 people killed that are murdered in South Africa a day, and a woman is raped every 11 minutes in this country every single day that is disgraceful, and we all need to accept responsibility for that. In the last 15 years in
particular, what we have seen, state capture and corruption of billions of rand; over the past five years we experienced one of the world’s longest and harshest COVID-19 lockdowns that trampled on basic human rights, and devastated livelihoods, and to compound matters, we have and are experiencing ongoing load shedding, logistics and water crises, and lest we forget, in 2021 we witnessed with shock and disbelief rioting and looting resulting in 354 deaths and R50 billion in damages. No wonder many South Africans say we mark but do not celebrate 30 years of democracy. And where were the state security services? Absent at that time. Households are experiencing severe hardship and are struggling to make ends meet. Load shedding, the logistics crisis, as I have mentioned, and the high interest rates have resulted in a weak economy, millions of people are either unemployed or are facing a severe cost of living crisis.

The circumstances in rural towns are even more dire, with children suffering from severe acute malnutrition and tragically, even dying of starvation. That is disgraceful. We say, cry the beloved country indeed. But there is hope. As South Africa prepares for its seventh democratic election, the ACDP has heard the SOS from the people. We offer elected representatives who are servant leaders, who understand the
stewardship of state resources. Who will not loot and steal, but care for the people. We would encourage those voters to vote for the ACDP on 29 May. Your hope for a better future.

Lastly, we continue to pray for peace in Jerusalem and peace in the Middle East in our knowledge that God watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. I thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, our struggle for democracy was essentially a struggle ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON Mr M L D Ntomblela): Order! Order, hon members!

Mr B N HERRON: Our struggle for democracy was essentially a struggle for fundamental and inalienable human rights. The apartheid government denied South Africans their basic human rights and law. However, because these rights are universal and inalienable, the laws they wrote could only be implemented through suppression and oppression. It took violence, excessive policing and an army to hold back the tide of resistance. The triumph of the struggle and the resistance of the might of the apartheid government led to achieving a constitutional democracy and enshrined Bill of Rights that was
carefully crafted in order to protect our freedoms and redress the indignities of our history.

As a nation, we must celebrate the constitutional protection and promotion of a rights-based democracy where no person, regardless of their status, is exempted from their duty to not only respect the rights of others, but also to actively give meaning to those rights. Over the past 30 years, our commitment to our Constitution and our Bill of Rights has been tested. Our Bill of Rights has proven to be resilient and unbreakable. Therefore, our Constitutional Court and the judiciary have demonstrated their independence and appetite to give progressive meaning to the rights enshrined in our Bill of Rights. Some significant and life changing judgments have included the 1995 court decision that the right to life was inconsistent with the death penalty, the 2004 court decision which imposed a duty on the rail service providers to ensure the safety of commuters.

In 2004, the court also protected the right of African women to inherit under the African customary law. Therefore, in 2005, the court found that the failure to provide for same sex couples to enjoy the same status accorded to heterosexual couples through marriage constituted an unjustifiable
violation of their rights passed. One of the most significant examples of the human realisation of written text of rights is the groundbreaking Grootboom case of 2000. This socioeconomic rights case which upheld the right to housing, and it has become one of the most cited cases in the world.

Of course, South Africans continue to struggle to have their rights realised or protected on a daily basis. For those who are organised to have means they use the courts to fight for these rights, for others they use Chapter 9 institutions, like the Public Protector or the Human Rights Commission. We can celebrate that we have well-developed human rights culture and that we have developed the institutions to give life to these rights. The process to hold the state and private individuals and companies accountable to protect and progress our human rights is sometimes painfully slow.

However, we can celebrate that the founders of our Constitution had the foresight and wisdom to know that rights would not be worth the paper they have written on, if any South African was unable due to a lack of means to claim or enforce these rights. On Human Rights Day this week, it is important for all of us to recognise how far we have come, how much more we have to do, and that we all bear the
responsibility of ensuring our rights, particularly our socioeconomic rights, are progressively realised. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, I think the first question we need to ask in this House is, does any of these people here have the right to talk about human rights? When you make one of the most despicable statements you can ever hear, and that is saying “one man’s freedom being another man’s genocide” ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Emam! Hon Emam, please take your seat. Hon members! Hon members, I’m expecting absolute co-operation from all of you, both sides of the universe. We are expecting absolute co-operation from your good selves. Please, let’s allow a member to state his case without any interruption. There’s a hand from the hon there.
What’s your point of order, hon member?


Mr R A LEES: Hon House Chair, is the speaker at the podium prepared to take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Munzoor, are you prepared to take a question?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: No time to waste, House Chair. No, thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. He is not prepared. You can proceed, hon member.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: One thing the DA, the Freedom Front Plus and the IFP have in common and that is the word apartheid. Let us not forget the role of the IFP colluding with the apartheid regime pre-1994. Let us not forget about the role of the DA and the Freedom Front Plus. Therefore, the DA is generally another term for the apartheid regime, the National Party. Let us not deny that. Now, can you imagine this most despicable statement that’s made by John Steenhuisen, are you surprised? No, I’m not. If you look at the corruption that’s taking place in his party ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shaik, let’s call each other hon members or Mr. Okay, go ahead.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson. If you want to call that hon, I will call him hon John Steenhuisen with the corruption in his own political party, if you’ve just said about the funding for his campaign, he does not talk about
that. That is all at the expense of the violation of the human rights of South Africans.

However, let me go one step further, the question I want to ask ordinary South Africans is, can you trust political parties who go in the public domain and make a statement that “one person’s genocide is another person’s freedom”. Is that not taking us back to the days of apartheid? Is that where you want to hurt yourself? I’m calling on you to reject with the contempt it deserves the DA, the IFP, the Freedom Front Plus, the ACDP, the PA and Action SA.

Therefore, let the IFP not come and tell us here that they fought on the side of those whose rights were being violated. They know exactly what they have done. They know how much of blood has been shed in the hands of the poorest of the poor and the most vulnerable people in South Africa. Let us not forget them. Palestine will be free, the very same people that go out and support Ukraine sit back and allow the Palestinians to be massacred day and night, and you come and talk here about children. You come and talk here about women.

I want to say to those in the Western Cape that if you do not want the Western Cape to be changed into a Zionist state, if
you don’t want the Western Cape to go to the hands of the West, rise, go and send rise, and rise now. Rise black people, rise now against this white domination, this white supremacy, rise. Rise against the IFP in KwaZulu-Natal. They have never delivered anything to you. Look at the conditions under which you live today. There is no doubt there’s been a lot of progress in the country these people are trying to oppose ... Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. Hon Le Goff, just a minute, please. The hon Le Goff, just a minute. Hon members! Hon members, although the speech of the hon Emam was not directed at me, but I’ve got an obligation to listen to him very carefully, although it is not meant for me. The way it went, hon members, I am tempted to call him back so that he can start afresh because I didn’t hear ... [Interjections.]

Hon members! Hon members! Hon members, I only said that I am tempted, I didn’t say that he should come back. Now, could you please afford the hon Anatole Le Goff to state his case. You may proceed, hon member.
Mr T A LE GOFF: Hon House Chairperson, fellow South Africans, on 8 May 1996, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa was adopted as the supreme law of this land. It represents our highest aspirations and the collective wisdom of the South African people. Enacted within the Constitution is Chapter 2, the Bill of Rights, which seeks to establish a society based on democratic values and fundamental human rights. Therefore, according to the Constitution, the government of today must respect, protect, promote and fulfil the fundamental rights of our citizens.

While the Bill of Rights is explicitly clear on what is required of the state to uphold and advance the greater realisation of fundamental human rights, it’s very much remiss to be seen that the present ANC government is fulfilling its constitutional responsibilities. I say this not to be political. As independent fact-based agencies like Statics SA and the Auditor-General paint a damning picture of the ANC’s record in respecting the human rights of our fellow South Africans.

Imagine for a moment that you were an 18-year-old South African who is eligible to vote for the first time in the national provincial governments elections this year. If you
were 18 this year, you would live in fear of knowing you live in the country with the highest murder rate in the world and that you or your member of your family could potentially be one of the 85,7 people who are murdered every single day in this country.

If you were 18 this year, such is the national trauma of being a young person in South Africa that you would have watched in terror as this ANC government failed to suppress a violent insurrection, which is largely regarded to have been inspired by their previous leader, which swept across KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng in July 2021, turning large parts of our cities into war zones, leaving 354 people dead, and causing an excess of R50 billion worth of damage to property and infrastructure, and the loss of 150 000 jobs.

If you were 18 this year, your first practical awareness of politics in South Africa would not have been Nelson Mandela or the Sharpeville massacre of 64 years ago, the reason for which we observe Human Rights Day. Instead, your practical awareness of South African politics would probably have been how your country was sold by the ANC to the Guptas, and a Minister of Finance who had a four-day tenure as a weekend special, and of
the Zondo Commission of Inquiry into allegations of state capture.

If you were 18 this year, you would have known what it means to live with load shedding caused by the ANC up to 12 hours a day, from the day you were born to this very present day, and you would know what it is like to have to arrive home in the dark, to be unable to cook or study or do your homework while the electricity has become less available, but even more expensive.

If you were 18 this year you would have learned on 20 February 2024, this year, in the Quarterly Labour Force Survey of Quarter 4 of 2023, that you lived in a country with the highest unemployment rates in the world, and that even if you were lucky enough to matriculate later this year, you would very likely just become one of the 6,8 million young South Africans between the ages of 15 to 34, who are victims of the unemployment crisis in our country, which is eventually in recession.

It is not enough that our human rights exist just on paper. That is never what the Constitution intended for any of us. If we want to live in a society where fundamental human rights
are foremost, then we must acknowledge that we cannot achieve these things while our country ... [Inaudible.] ... of terminal decline. The DA has a rescue plan for South Africa that is centred on upholding the Bill of Rights on creating two million jobs, lifting six million people out of poverty and restoring the dignity of those who have lost it. Vote DA to rescue South Africa on 29 May. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I raised my hand when he was still on the podium that if you have to raise any pamphlet in the House, you must have the permission of the Speaker. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Noted, hon member. Thank you very much. You may proceed, hon Deputy Minister.

Chairperson, as we enter Ubuntu Week, let us condemn the IFP attack on innocent members of the ANC at KwaCeza. That act is the violation of the human rights they must understand if they do not know. The recent survey by Van Gerd reveals that the Western Cape province, where the DA is governing reign the least safe province for women. The Western Cape has come bottom of the safety index at it had the highest number of
incidents for community and young children related crimes, property related crimes, safety and theft.

As far as exclusion is concerned in relation to black people...


... siyayazi ukuba iKapa, yidolophu apha eyohlulwe kabini. Kukho indawo yabantu abantsundu nendawo yabantu abamhlophe. Abantu abantsundu bahlala ebugxwayibeni apho kungekho nkathalo. Ncedani ke bantu baseMzantsi Afrika, niyazi i-DA. Sithetha nje ngoku kukho...


... the exclusion of the black leaders in the DA.


Sibonile kukhutshwa ooMazibuko, ooVan Damne, ooMayimane...



... capable leaders because they are black.


NoMajola naye, uye walandela.
Who is next?


Lungani nina bantsundu enilapho ngaphakathi.



A nationwide survey previously revealed that 76% of people feel unsafe and 30% consider immigration due to safety concerns. Today, we want to expose the DA’s political modus operandi to you voters...


... apho emakhaya, kufuneka nibazi.



It is crystal clear that in the pre-democratic dispensation the DA was the NNP since 1948 to 1997 and to date, the DA had been and continues to violate human rights of the marginalized people in South Africa. I will list few children and young girls that we lost under the watch of the DA: The six-year-old Joslin, the 17-year-old Ongeziwe, and the 11-year-old Monacia.
During the colonialism and apartheid era, the majority of South Africans, black people in general, Africans in particular, were systematically discriminated, marginalized, and excluded from the meaningful participation in the mainstream economy. So, to avoid making mistakes of the past, we dare not forget the injustices of the past and winning our freedom was the first step for us to live a better life. The ANC-led government of the people, which by the way, includes yourselves because we are your government too, has reversed all this madness. Today, you will be kind enough to appreciate that we live side by side with you in what was predominantly known as whites-only suburbs and urban area.

The ANC-led government overhauled the labour market regulation and introduced the 1995 Labour Relations Act, which addressed a lot of anomalies such as the adversaries of industrial relations and the high levels of strike arising from the refusal of basic rights such as the freedom of association to form and belong to trade unions, unfair dismissal and retrenchment.

I am going to advise the DA to adopt a jurisprudential philosophical interpretation of Ubuntu which is aligned to moral theory, promising new concept of human rights that is
free of human violation, equality and freedom, as enshrined in our Constitution. The human rights should be based on the principal value of Ubuntu. Sakin claims that a human rights culture could not develop in apartheid South Africa due to the fact that the system bred intolerance and culture of violence and lack of respect for the life and rights in general.

In post colonialism, there was an urgent need for to foster human rights culture and to demonstrate the need of human rights, which then, after the ANC took power in 1994, South Africa became a better place as far as human rights is concerned. Since the dawn of democracy 30 years ago, the government working hand in hand with the people of South Africa has done enormous work to promote economic inclusion of the previously marginalized persons, particularly the working class.

The main point I want to make here is that, despite the difficult conditions that we experienced as black people, the basic architecture of the industrial relations system introduced after 1994 has survived and stood the test of time. Let me demonstrate this for those who continue to miss the point on my left. What is happening now?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Monakedi, close.


demonstrate this for those who continue to miss my point on my left, just yesterday His Excellency, President Ramaphosa was addressing the Human Rights Conference marking the 30th anniversary of constitutional democracy and human rights in South Africa. Our 30 years of democracy sought to respond to the sacrifices made by our people and the clarion call made by Congress of the People in 1955. In responding to this call, we made sure that we cement these aspirations in our founding document, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which is the supreme law of the land.

Today, we are proud to adjust to the fact that the survey reveals that South Africa is amongst the three countries that lead their way in the first generation of the African Entrepreneurial Index. Our democracy guaranteed fundamental human rights of all South Africans. It paved the way for the introduction of the transformative laws and policies on worker’s rights, Employment Equity Act, and Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE to ensure greater access to
employment and meaningful participation of women and youth in the mainstream economy.

In the mining sector, black ownership increased from 2%, when the DA was leading, as the National Party, to 39% today. To date, we can list the companies that are beneficiaries of this transformation that we are talking about. Seriti Mines, African Rainbow Minerals Holdings, Kalakgadi Manganese, Thungela, Exxaro Mining Company and Zintle Holdings. It is also heartening that 30 years after the attainment of democracy, 72 000 women are active participants in the mining industry. As part of government’s concerted effort to achieve prosperity where people will be free of poverty, growth, transformation of the structure of the economy and to ensure a more equitable distribution of wealth and control of our national economic asset, the department, in partnership with the IDC, launched the 400 million Exploration Fund. We are convinced that the fund will not only promote participation of junior miners and exploration but will accelerate the discovery of new mineral resources and thus reignite the emergence of new mining.

We have established artisanal and small-scale miners fund to financially support artisanal and small-scale miners, building
on the tremendous strides made by the government in empowering women, in particular women in mining. The majority share of this fund is dedicated for women. We want women to apply for this fund.

With a renewed mandate because we are coming back, we know people of South Africa they have trust in the ANC. The ANC-led government will continue investing efforts and resources to stimulate, transform and grow this economy so that it can create business opportunities and create the much-needed jobs for millions of young people and women. The department is working on a critical mineral strategy, with the particular focus on ensuring that more of what is mined in our current beneficiary beneficiated locally. It is regrettable that too many of our natural resources are exploited in raw from and then imported back in South Africa as manufactured goods.
Hence, we are determined to ensure that beneficiation at source, happens in our lifetime to do away with the Pit-to- Port approach to mining and to put to an end the export of jobs and profits.

If we are to truly derive value for this initiative, we will need rigorous to promote the African Continental Free Trade Area, ACFTA, as a game changer for the realization of the
Africa we want. Hon members, as these transformative measures and many others have made South Africa a much better place than it was before 1994, it is expected of the anti- transformation forces inside this House and outside to disregard this fact. Hence, they regroup in splinter groups and small parties with the sole purpose of reversing our transformative gains.

The onslaught against transformation, including the deployment of capable cadres in strategic economic sectors must never deter us as the ANC to redress the historic injustices of the colonial and apartheid era, but should make us to be more determined to succeed in building a better life for all. The fact of the matter is that the ANC-led government remains the only reliable force that is capable of transforming this country to achieve a National Democratic society. Hence, we remain steadfast in ensuring that the social and economic advancement of the people in general becomes an even more deliberate feature of our work.

Working together, will put South Africa to work. We are going to defend our democracy and advance freedom. The journey towards the full realization of the vision, espoused in the Freedom Charter continues. In conclusion, as we look forward
to the Provincial and National General Elections in May 29, we look into the future in the face of changing the conditions of our people. The journey we have traversed gives us hope that today is better than yesterday and tomorrow will be much better than today. Thank you so much.

Mr T LOATE: House Chair, while Human Rights Day observed annually on 21 March all significances historical importance, it is untenable that it is not a day of celebration by all South Africans because of how unequal a society we remain and how dip poverty is rooted in our communities.

On March 21, 1960, apartheid police shot and killed 69 protestors in Sharpeville. In 1994, President Mandela declared March 21 a Human Rights Day. This day must always serve as a reminder of sacrifices made during the struggle for democracy. It must also be a day each year when we turn mirror on ourselves as public representatives to ask what exactly we are doing to show our resolute commitment to advancing the rights enshrined in our Bill of Rights.

Persistent socially economic disparities continued to affect millions of South Africans from the historically marginalised backgrounds living in our economically untransformed
townships, bleak informal settlements and neglected rural areas. These disparities are raising questions about the practical impact of constitutional rights.

Our contention as Cope is that there is no national audit of the advancement of fundamental freedoms. Rampant corruption, bureaucratic efficiencies and lack of political will have left the marginalised organised people far behind.

In the streets of our township people are deeply aggrieved that their rights have not been adequately protected due to ineffective governance at every level. Every government structure has also failed in creating a strong awareness about individual rights and how to assert them. People are dismissive of the Constitution because of glaring government failures.

Minister, every Human Rights Day should be an assessment day of how many citizens fully understand their rights and how many citizens a good understanding has of how to exercise those rights. Every Human Rights Day, this Parliament should be assessing whether education has played its crucial role in empowering citizens like those in our townships and rural areas to appreciate and defend their own rights.
Despite constitutional guarantees economic inequalities persist across the land. Millions of predominantly black South Africans remain excluded from the full benefits of democracy. This disparity is fluidly scepticism about the transformative potential of our Bill of Rights.

For us members of this House, the alarm bell should be ringing loudly and persistently. We need to encourage urgently and serious dialogue on socioeconomic problems, promote awareness of these rights and ... [Inaudible.] ... immediate challenges. Thank you, Chair.

Ms N K SHARIF: House Chairperson, as a young South African I will not come here and defend the ANC for anything. Yes, we have democracy, but we are not free or equal under this government. We will not be beholden by you. Let me immediately direct your attention to section 27 of the Bill of Rights enshrined in our Constitution. It states that, everyone has the right to have access to – (a) health care services, including reproductive health care; (b) sufficient food and water; and (c) social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependants, appropriate social assistance.
Just based on section 27 of the Bill of Rights alone, the ANC fails dismally. Women are unsafe, children are at risk and the dignity of life itself has been broken down by poor governance and an absolute disregard to the realities people face.
Service delivery as we know, it has come to an end, and you can sit around every single day, provinces like Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal like other parts of the country where people are waking up to no water in their homes and it is so ranching.
When we speak about a water crisis, it is not something we speak about from a distance. All of us are struggling under a failed state. Water literally has the ability to give life.
And the lack of water can literally take over lives.


The water crisis affected those with the least the most. Many underprivilege households and those living in poverty sustained the harshest brunt. For those who can afford it like many here today, you can make a plan, you can by water, you can get Jojo tanks but what about those who must walk kilometres to just get water, those with little kids that goes without water for days or those with sick people on their care. Does the ANC care about the human rights of the people in this country? I would say no. the water crisis is getting worse and under this government there is no evidence that shows they can fix the mess they have created.
But what makes matters worse is that water crisis is not something new as the DA has been highlighting the failures outlining the risk and providing solutions for several years. The failure of the ANC to respect and promote human rights must not go unabated. We must hold them accountable.

The DA in its Election Manifesto has prioritised ending water shedding. Why? Because we must protect basic human rights. The DA’s plan is to end water shedding includes eight plans. One of our biggest focuses is to ensure that infrastructure is maintained and encourage investment in water infrastructure projects. The DA has a plan to rescue South Africa from water shedding by working towards developing water sensitive cities that will seek to optimise storm water and urban water ways for improve flood control and water reuse and developing public spaces that correctly recycle water. Water quality testing must work optimally to ensure that the safety of water and improved the most important part. And that is access to water.

South Africa, you have a choice, the quality of your life and our future is in your hands. You can decide if a life without safety, respect and promotion of your basic human rights is the way to continue. But the DA is here to give you different
choice. We have the solutions, the leadership, the experience and they might do not only remove the ANC but the ability to rescue South Africa. I thank you.

Rre S O R MAHUMAPELO: Motl. Modulasetilo, ke ne kere ke dumedise le batlotlegi botlhe Ntlong eno, ...


... and also, greetings to the collective of the executive members who are with us here today? The people of South Africa will overwhelmingly on 29 May 2024, vote for the ANC because they know that their organisation, the ANC, that led a process which in 1955 culminated in the adoption of the Freedom Charter. Among other things in that Freedom Charter, the people of South Africa were saying South Africa will one day rank among nations of the world that pursue peace.

They will vote for the ANC on 29 May 2024, because as we speak here today, South Africa is a signatory to the peace treaties of the world, which among others include, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination
and all other treaties that I will not mention because of time.

They will vote for the ANC on 29 May because they know that the ANC has always made it a point that all of us understand that we are part of the African continent. That is why we are participating in SADC bodies, including the SADC human rights system, hence we are part of the African Union. The people of South Africa will overwhelmingly vote for the ANC on 29 May because they know that their peace here in South Africa was disrupted by those who moved from their own countries in 1652 and came to South Africa to disrupt our peace as Africans.

They will continue to support the ANC because they know that they are organisation, the ANC, ...

... e sale ya tsaya tshwetso ya gore e tla lwana kgaratlho go fitlhela e fitlhelela tokologo ya motho yo montsho. Jaaanong bagaetsho, rona re le ANC, re itse sentle fela gore ...


... we never went to other countries to disrupt peace of other countries. Today, we sit with problems here in South Africa
because there are people who chose a decision to come to South Africa, disrupt our peace, as I have said. Those people came from Netherlands and Britain.

Today, as we sit here in Parliament, they want us to learn from them on how human rights can be fought for, how human rights can be achieved, when they know that man-made laws were developed here in South Africa to oppress black people. The people of South Africa will continue to vote for the ANC on 29 May because they know that their quest, which emerge from the Freedom Charter, has a resulted in international trade agreements where investments are taking place.

Whereas, as South Africa, we export to other nations of the world because we are reciprocating to those countries that stood with us during the dark days of apartheid colonialism. The people of South Africa will continue to vote for the ANC on 29 May, because they know that they are organisation, the ANC, seeks not only to liberate its members, but it liberates everybody to achieve a South Africa that is united, democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous.

They will continue to support the ANC because they know that pursuance of peace all over the world is our mantra. They know
that, as the ANC leading this government, we will not encourage war internationally, but we will look for spaces for peace. We will engage nations of the world as we are doing today, yesterday, and many decades ago, whether it is in Ukraine and Russia. South Africa continues to engage the two countries to make sure that peace prevails on that part of the world.

However, the DA here, will not in their speech mention the fact that the people of Palestine in Gaza are not enjoying their rights today. You don’t even have the audacity to say South Africans let’s thank ANC-led government for going to the International Court of Justice, ICJ, because the ICJ today agrees with our facts.

Chair, because I am left with five minutes, I want to go to the matter of the letter of the DA, which was written to the United States of America. This letter, based on the rights that the ANC had fought for in this country, to liberate everybody, including the DA. They abuse those rights by writing a letter. This letter demonstrates nothing else but the fact that the DA suffers from deep, deep rooted, and inherently embedded Afrophobia.
That letter is nothing else but a demonstration of hypocrisy in the abilities of the AU to lead matters of Africa, because the DA suffers from Afro pessimism. Badly. The DA believes in swart gevaarism. They seek to send a message to the US that these black people and Africans will not be able to manage their own affairs on their own, including elections. The embedded subtle message in the letter seeks to say to the US, that we are dealing here with brainless, dumb, stupid, myopic black people whom the only thing they know is violence, which will threaten the elections.

They also write a letter which seeks to undermine the scientific proof in history of the IEC, to be able to run our elections without any problem in this country. They abuse their rights, which were fought for them, and they seek to instil fear all over the world through that letter, so that the growing confidence that nations of the world have on South Africa can begin to dwindle - and you will not succeed.

You write a letter because as offsprings of imperial global powers, supported by capital and military might all over the world, you know nothing else but to see incapacity among blacks and Africans. Your myopic, uninformed and unpatriotic letter to the US has exposed the actual extent to which you
don't have confidence in your own party agents who are going to be in every voting station to make sure that the elections go well.

You write a letter that actually shows your bankruptcy and your lack of confidence in your own representatives in the multiparty structures, where all parties are represented to engage with the IEC on the elections. As the ANC, as part of our human rights culture, we will not keep quiet on such conduct by the DA and other individuals because we fought for democracy. We fought for the rights, but when rights are being abused and when rights are being myopically manipulated to pursue particular agendas, we will not keep quiet, as the ANC.

Hon Hlabisa, as the ANC, our approach is not makuliwe [let’s fight]. As the ANC, our approach is that we must not seek for shortcuts whether are differences in society. What we need to do is to make sure, no matter how difficult the situation might be, that an engagement takes place among ourselves, because we have the responsibility to lead.

So, I call upon you, my leader, to provide leadership and make sure that we appeal to everybody throughout the country, including the province of KwaZulu-Natal, to make sure that
there is peace so that elections can take place within a peaceful environment. Makuliwe [Let’s fight] is not going to assist anybody.

In conclusion, I just want to indicate that as the ANC, we will continue to lead a struggle that will culminate into the realisation of what our people said in 1955, and I quote:

We pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing neither strength nor courage, until the democratic changes we seek are fully achieved and realised.

Thank you very much, ...


... Modulasetilo. Ke a leboga.

HON MEMBER: Free education!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I now recognise the hon Castellina Majodina, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.




... ubuya usemandleni, ubiza ...


... all the names. Thank you very much. House Chair, I move that this report be referred back to the committee for further consultation. It became glaring that there are certain issues that the committee want to raise, but they still need to engage further across parties. Thank you very much.

Question put.

No objections.


Agreed to.

Business suspended at 11:23 and resumed at 14:00.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Announced that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the loss of membership of the National Assembly by Ms S Patrein in terms of section 47(3)(c) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 had been filled by the nomination of Ms S W Davids with effect from 13 March 2024. The member had made and subscribed the solemn affirmation in the Speaker’s Office. I welcome you, hon member.



Question 1:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, hon members, the issue of land reform is vital to the transformation of our society, particularly to correct historical injustices that were perpetrated in our country. Redistribution, restitution and the provision of secure tenure to land also contribute to greater agricultural activity and enable more people to earn a living off farming. The government’s land reform programme is supported by several complementary as well as supplementary programmes and initiatives that the government has initiated to enable growth and job creation.
In May 2022, there was the signing of the master plan on agriculture and agro-processing which was effected with business partners and labour. Amongst many other things, the plan supports the acceleration of land reform and outlines actions that the private sector can take to support the optimal use of land available to black farmers because of land reform initiatives. These actions include support to black farmers and SMMEs at the processing level to have better access to both the technology and domestic and export markets. The plan also encourages in many ways large commercial farmers to participate voluntarily in the land reform programmes by donating land to historically disadvantaged farmers for participating in joint ventures to facilitate linkages between small and medium-scale farmers operating on a commercial basis. Where several of these have been initiated, they have worked extremely well. If the proposed interventions are implemented effectively, the social partners believe that by 2030, the agricultural sector can grow by an additional
R32 billion above the business-as-usual baseline. Through this plan, they intend to maintain the existing jobs in the sector and create many more jobs by 2030.

For the economic potential of our land reform programme to be fully realised, we are prioritising rural development as well.
The Integrated Rural Development Sector Strategy of 2023 aims, among others, to revitalise the rural economy through investment in, and development of rural infrastructure, as in roads and many other facilities such as bridges, other transport infrastructure, water and irrigation schemes, as well as dealing with other social programmes such as health and education. The strategy also provides support to industries that support rural development, including agriculture and agro-processing, as well as mining where this is applicable. The digital economy also plays a key role for all these, as well as the ocean economy for all those areas that are surrounded by sealine. Tourism, arts and culture become a very important component of all these.

Improvements in rural infrastructure are necessary so that we can reap the economic potential of land reform. Beneficiaries of the various land reform projects need to be able to access water resources, get their produce to market, and farm effectively. The land reform programme is also supported by initiatives that also support skills development.

Through the National Rural Youth Service Corps, NARYSEC, the government provides young people with the skills and capabilities to participate in the economy. This scheme
started on a small scale, and we are beginning to increase participation by getting more young people in rural areas to get involved. Through such rural development initiatives, more than 1 100 jobs have been facilitated in the current financial year.

Through Presidential Employment Stimulus, more than 180 000 agricultural production inputs vouchers have been issued to subsistence producers. These range from providing vouchers for seeds, fertilizers, and other necessary farming inputs that have assisted emerging farmers or small-scale farmers. The Presidential Employment Stimulus has also worked with the provincial departments of agriculture and other social partners to provide support to more than 62,000 small-scale producers to strengthen self-employment and food security.

Through these complementary programmes and initiatives, we are working to ensure that land reform is harnessed more effectively to support the growth of agriculture and agro- processing to expand employment and support the livelihoods of many South Africans. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Dr M M E TLHAPE: Thank you, Mr President, for an elaborative and very insightful response. It is worth noting that the
integrated plan for government on the agricultural sector and land reform has found expression in many key documents, that is, the National Development Plan, NDP, the National Growth Path, and as you have indicated most recently, the Agriculture and Agro-processing Master plan, just to name a few. Now, President, the key concern in the gains of land reform remains to bring communal land back to production. Your Excellency, my question is: What are the plans of government regarding communal land so that we leave no one behind? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Tlhape, the issue of communal land continues to be under attention and discussion. We have had several discussions, particularly with our traditional leaders, with a view of addressing this very important issue, and it’s not only to bring those lands under production but also to look at the ownership and the ownership structure and processes that go into this. I have interacted a great deal with traditional leaders and the Deputy President is also engaged in that whole process of addressing the issue that has been raised pointedly and directly by traditional leaders. So, it is a matter on which we at the government level are looking at several initiatives and processes that also include mapping the communal areas more properly so that when a solution is found, we can bring to bear proper
information and the data that will lead to a proper resolution of this matter.

Through the voucher system that we implemented, we have made sure and taken care that even those who are on communal land are also not left behind. And we have also found that as we structure and put together our master plans, communal land should not be left behind because in some areas of our country where there is fertile land which resides or which is in communal land, there is a great possibility to embark on commercial farming on a sizable scale. And this is where co- operation between the current commercial farmers who were advantaged by the privileges of the past can co-operate and have partnerships with those who are in communal lands. So, several initiatives and plans are being brought to bear and we are going to be able to find a more effective solution to the question of communal land, and in the meantime, we are proceeding to ensure that communal land is not left behind and those who live on communal land are also included. Several initiatives are underway. Thank you very much.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: President, let’s be very clear and not beat around the bush, the ANC’s land reform programme has been a dismal failure, largely due to corruption,
maladministration and insufficient budget, and this was as a result highlighted in the High-Level Panel report. The only province where land reform is working is the Western Cape, where there’s an 83% success rate. Figures released by Statistics SA on 5th March, show that agricultural output fell by 12,2% last year, and the sharp drop is due to inefficient ports, load shedding, and deteriorating road and rail infrastructure. Mr President, one of the fundamental failures of land reform is that land reform beneficiaries do not receive the title deeds to these farms. And it’s for this reason we have lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission over your government’s failure to turn land reform beneficiaries into landowners.

President, why are you sitting on your hands rather than issuing 2,5 million hectares worth of title deeds to land reform beneficiaries? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: A straightforward answer to that is that we are issuing title deeds continuously. Whenever I hold in izimbizo, and whenever various Ministers also hold izimbizo, title deeds continue to be issued. Just to give a very good example, the recent imbizo which was held in Mpumalanga if the Leader of the Opposition had taken care to
attend, he would have seen that several title deeds were issued to our people who are eternally pleased and can farm the land that is accompanied by the title deeds that are issued. The issuing of title deeds is a process, it must follow the processes of management of the land, scaling, and all that, and the title deeds process also must follow due legal process. And as that is done, title deeds are issued, and we are issuing them by the thousands. Thank you, hon House Chair.

Ms T BREEDT: Mr President, the plan sounds very utopian, but the reality is far different. On 1st October 2020, Minister Didiza admitted that more than 90% of all land reform projects have failed. Moreover, more than 11% of South African households have reported experiencing hunger. Job growth in this sector is good, but if it doesn’t transfer to food security or successful land reform, it is futile. What will you do to ensure food security through successful land reform? I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, there have been several weaknesses that have also resulted in some failures in some of the land reform initiatives. When the ANC-led government started with the process of restoring the tenure of black
people to land, we set a target of 30% by 2030. We are now at 25%. A very outstanding economist, Wandile Sihlobo, who is one of the leading black agri-economists has said that if we continue at this rate, by 2030, we will have exceeded the 30% that we set for ourselves. Now, setting up a target like that would have seemed utopian in the past few years, but we have seen great progress that has also led to improvement, even having to address the weaknesses that we started with when land redistribution initiatives did not seem to be well supported. Now, those who receive land are well-supported. The parcels of land that are given out to many of our people are accompanied by proper support, which is going to lead to greater success. I’m glad you’ve noted that employment in the agri-sector has been increasing and we want to see it increase more and more.

When it comes to food security, the technological advancements that we are seeing in agriculture as well as the focus that the government is giving to agriculture are continuing to increase the food security in our country. We are a food- secure country in many ways. We still must address incidents of poverty where several of our people still struggle to continue with their livelihoods, and this is where the government has been very supportive through several
initiatives such as the social grants that we give to support the livelihoods of people. But as we move on to the 2030 target, I see us having reached higher levels of food security as we increase the participation, particularly of those who were denied land tenure rights as they participate more in agriculture. We are already seeing a great increase. If you look at several subsectors of the agri-economy, you’ll find that many more black people are getting into those sectors; you come sheep farming, goat farming, and maize farming. More and more black people are coming in. It is in the other subsectors such as wheat and vegetables where we need to increase the participation of black people. When we increase land utilisation that is where we are going to increase our food security. So, food security is an important area that we are focusing on, and I do believe that we are on target. In the coming years, our food security will be even more secure to be able to cover even those people who are poor now. Thank you very much.

Mr N SINGH: Yeah, I think he’s having some connectivity problems. He told us earlier on. So, may I take the question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please proceed.
Mr N SINGH: Mr President, thank you very much for your responses. I will ask you a question that was penned down by the hon Inkosi Cebekhulu who has been informed that contracts for over 5 000 assistant agricultural practitioners who were recruited as part of a programme initiated by the Department of Agricultural, Land Reform and Rural Development aimed at deploying unemployed agricultural graduates to assist in reaching crucial targets within our agricultural sector, is now in jeopardy because of budget constraints. The question is: How does the government intend to ensure that such budgetary challenges do not undermine critical employment opportunities within the agricultural sector, particularly for skilled graduates? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: As we address the challenges that are given rise by our fiscal circumstances, we are making sure that we minimise as much as we possibly can. The various reductions of expenditure in several areas. One of those is, for instance, the absorption of agricultural extension officers. We have said in the past that we need to increase agricultural extension officers many of whom are the new graduates, but they need to be also supported by the more experienced farmers. As we increase their number, we want to see productivity in the agricultural sector also going up.
Through the Presidential Employment Stimulus initiative, we are also bringing in those young people. You will recall that I’ve often said that with the Presidential Employment Stimulus, we brought in several young people in several disciplines: education, agriculture, community services and all that. So, several of them will be absorbed through that as well and will make sure that they are tenure, or their continued participation in helping in agriculture also continues. So, much as we are facing headwinds on the fiscal side, there are programmes that we do believe have made very positive contributions to employment, to getting young people to participate in the economy, to gain experience and to later be employable. So, agriculture is an area that we’re focusing on with greater attention. So, for those who may well think that their jobs could be in jeopardy, we will continue to support them through the other initiatives that are underway. But thank you very much for also bringing that to our attention. Thank you, House Chair.

Question 2:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, after several delays, the issue of lifestyle audits of members of the executives is underway firmly. This process is being led by the director-general, DG. One of the reasons why we have
directed that it should be led by the DG, it is because even interests of executive members are managed by the director- general in her office, and we wanted this process to reside there and to be properly administered. It is in that regard that these audits are now continuing.

As I have indicated, the aim of the lifestyle audit is to gather as much information as possible, some of which is already in her office, as she is the repository for the information of all of us in the executive. And that had originally been outsourced. In the end, we realised that capturing exactly what we were aiming for was not as effective as we wanted it to be. Now it is in the right place under the right management and the process continues. And also, now that we are moving on, the office has recruited competent, qualified staff with experience in conducting lifestyle audits. Capacity building has taken longer than expected, but it is well underway. This is the first time the national government has conducted lifestyle audits of its members. And this requires new systems that have now been put in place. It requires processes and methods that should be put in place or used so that it is able to provide all the necessary information. The DG will decide on the most appropriate way to
communicate the results of the audit once it has been completed. Thank you, House Chair.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, it was in your 2018 state of the nation address, Sona, that you first promised lifestyle audits on your Cabinet Ministers, but this has been another broken promise. If you had kept your promise, perhaps many of the allegations of egregious corruption against your Deputy President, Mr Mashatile, would have come to light, and the requisite action could have then been taken. And you cannot say it cannot be done because the DA showed you it could be done. Alan Winde implemented in the first six months of his term lifestyle audits on its members. And now you again announced lifestyle audits 71 days before the end of the parliamentary term. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously on your commitment to lifestyle audits?

Mr President, we have also just learned to the last hour that the Speaker of the NA’s house was raided by the Hawks over corruption allegations dating back to a time when she was appointed as the Minister of Defence by you. Your failure to implement lifestyle audits is what has facilitated the selected corruption by the Speaker.
Mr President, since you are the reason that lifestyle audits were not done, you are the reason we are sitting with an allegedly corrupt Deputy President. The Speaker of the NA’s house was being raided and a Cabinet that reads like Zondo’s most wanted list. Given that you ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr CT FROLICK): Order, hon members!

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... are you going to take responsibility and accept that in this matter you are accused number one?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, I have explained that yes, this matter has taken an inordinately long time.
However, it is a matter that is being addressed and reaching finality. Indeed, it is a serious matter that requires the serious attention that we are bringing to bear on it. I am quite satisfied that the process that we have now embarked upon is a process that is going to streamline precisely how this is done. It is a process which will also be a very good precedent to the next following administrations of this country. It will be such that we have. Good system, good process that is going to address the issue of lifestyle audit. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you, hon President, for the detailed reply. Hon Chair, the DA’s stance on lifestyle audits is not based on the principle of morality but is about grandstanding so that we do not focus on their racist behaviour in the City of Cape Town and towards the Israeli genocide against the Palestinians. The DA is inherently racist, immoral and hypocritical. Hon President, ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr CT Frolick): Order, hon members. The President must hear the question.

Ms T MGWEBA: ... provinces have also undertaken lifestyle audits and experienced similar challenges, as you have said. For example, they faced capacity challenges to the extent that the Office of the Premier - Northern Cape have developed a service level agreement with a special investigation unit as a law enforcement agency within the necessary investigative capabilities. This is also because several times... [Interjections.] ...

What is the question, hon member?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr CT Frolick): What is the question hon member?
Ms T MGWEBA: ... What measures can enhance lifestyle audit system and its legislative authority to access various data points and enhance its rigour and impact?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, House Chair. Yes, there have been a number of approaches that have been used. A number of entities in our government, both national and provincial, have used a variety of methods, and some of those have been outsourcing, for instance, to audit firms, and some have been to the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, and some have been to other entities. And they have found that some methods or processes are more effective. We do hope that they are able to come out with the type of information that will enable us to address the issue or the question of corruption itself and bring to bear sufficient information to enable us to take actions on.

At a national level, we have looked at a number of processes and concluded that the process we have put in place is more efficient and can deliver the results we want, and this process and system is now being carried out by the DG, to which we have delegated the management of information and declarations from the executive. We believe that it is well resourced and with the additional staff that we have
recruited, it is well equipped to make the lifestyle review system more effective. And as I said before, this is the first time we have started lifestyle audit at a national level, and we are in the process of perfecting it. We will perfect this system over time and let me make it clear that this is not even an attempt to dodge and to move away from this whole process, it is to hold it as effective as possible without leaving gaps or holes. Thank you very much.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much. Hon President, as you quite rightly say, the lifestyle audits has been a long time coming, thirty years in fact. But anyway, they say “better late than never.” Mr President, I would like to know that 70 days before the end of term as President of the country, if it turns out,
- and I am not talking about the future, that I am not “sangoma” or a prophet, I am not a prophet. If it turns out that some members of the executive in the current executive mismanaged the funds in the fiscus or did something undesirable. What kind of steps do you envisage as consequential actions for these recalcitrant members of the executive? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Any member of the executive who will be found to have mismanaged the funds of the state of the
people must face the consequences of the law. That has to be the case, and the law enforcement agencies will be furnished with whatever information that ferrets out miss deeds like that, and there will be consequences. Those who participate in activities that go against the ethics that are required must face the consequences, and that is something that I am very clear on, so that will be the case. As you say, better late than never. And this is precisely that we are doing. Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Mr President, allow me to welcome your intervention in ensuring there are lifestyle audits. But, as you know, if you have just heard recently, there are serious allegation of the so-called audit machine in the country that is the DA on hon John Steenhuisen and allegations of corruption from party funding. What additional measures would you put in place to ensure that family members associates and friends are also audited in some way to ensure that we have a process that is clean and that we will have the required results. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, the declarations that will be submitted to the office of the director-general will touch on issues such as interests of relatives and all
that, but the lifestyle reviews that are now underway will go into even more depth. And they will be able to see those connections. So, to give you a clear answer: There will be a process of connecting the dots to see if there is ultimately a connection to people who may be involved in irregularities and corruption with government funds, very much. Thank you.

Question 3:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair and hon members, between 2020 and 2023 the Presidential Employment Stimulus Programme, PESP, as it is popularly known has created work and livelihoods for over 1,7 million people. Of the participants in the various programmes, 65% have been women and 85% young people. The Presidential Employment Stimulus has built an institutional architecture that is able to scale rapidly should the opportunity arise.

Right now, fiscal constraints mean that while the programme has been extended to March 2025, it is not currently able to expand beyond the numbers we had wanted it to expand. The focus in the coming year is therefore on taking the quality of outcomes to the next level focusing on enhancing the work experience for participants as well as the quality of the social value they create for communities, this includes skills
development, both soft skills derived from work experience and more formal skills development.

Different programmes are able to achieve this to different extents depending on the budgets made available. For example, in the Social Employment Fund the skills development offered are a key criterion in the selection of implementing partners. Programmes such the Basic Education Employment Initiative have also augmented what they can offer by building partnerships with a number of Sector Education and Training Authority, SETAs, and Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges.

This initiative’s approach to skills development focuses on demand-led skilling which is about increasing the relevance and the delivery of interventions to address a particular area of need in various sectors of our economy, particularly where the public sector is the main actor.

To take forward this work, the Department of Higher Education and Training, with the support of the Presidency, has established demand-led skilling work streams in priority growth areas. This initiative, in partnership with the National Skills Fund, has also launched jobs boost - as it is
called - a R300 million outcomes fund that will fund implementing organisations to skill a number of young people who are marginalised - some 4 500.

The initiative itself has made a real difference in the lives of millions of young people in our country. As you go through the length and breadth of our country you find that it is an initiative that has indeed touched the lives of many. Through the work already done, we have established a firm foundation of those initiatives to make an even greater contribution to addressing poverty, unemployment and inequality.

One of the reasons why we initiated this whole intervention was during COVID when jobs were being lost left, right and centre and when the private sector was also not active in creating jobs. We found this to fill the gap – to be an intervention that fills the gap and has also continued to play a more important role with regard to skilling young people, and in some cases getting them job ready and giving confidence to be able to look for jobs. This programme has been most effective and many people have found it to be so. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr M NONTSELE: House Chair, to the hon the President, thank you for your intensive explanations and responses. It goes a long way to clarify the interventions that you have made, particularly during the period of COVID. We have now seen jobs being increased far greater than the period before COVID time.

Given that the issue of unemployment remains one of the main challenges that the country is facing, is there another way to encourage all relevant stakeholders, including social partners, to participate in an even more massive employment creation? Thank you, President.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, yes, there are a number of ways in which we can bring in a number of partners, social partners and stakeholders to play a role in the whole task of addressing unemployment. I recently held a meeting with business and government, and out of that meeting came a number of interesting proposals from the private sector on how they can co-operate with government. They also included setting up a small, medium enterprise fund of great scale to fund small and medium enterprises to enable them to run their business in ways that can create jobs.
There are also other initiatives which they have come up with that will enable us to train young people to get them even more prepared for the world of work. The main one is to create an environment and continue with our reforms to create environments that will enable businesses to create jobs and to embark on various initiatives or incentives, rather, that will crowd in business and entice them to create jobs. These are initiatives that are important to be able to bring more people into employment. So, initiatives are being embarked upon and creativity is the order of the day.

We just came out of this morning’s infrastructure symposium where through infrastructure we are finding that there is a great deal of interest from the private sector to work with government, through various funding initiatives, to support the creation of jobs. We are going to continue doing precisely that because our aim is to create more jobs so that more of our people can get out of poverty. Thank you very much, House Chair.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: According to Statistics SA’s recent quarterly labour force survey 2,5 million young people under 25 cannot find work. There is no getting around the
truth - you and the ANC have failed the young people of South Africa.

Your government’s only solution is to create two months’ job opportunities for people, and then they are back in the unemployment queue which is now 12 million people long thanks to your government, yourself and your policies. The only place where real sustainable jobs are being created, Mr President, is in the DA-run Western Cape with 368 000 new real jobs that were created in a single year, thanks to good, clean and accountable government that creates an enabling environment for jobs to flourish.

Unlike the ANC Manifesto which promises only temporary low paid government jobs, our pledge is to create 2 million real jobs. Mr President, in your last state of the nation address before you were forced to walk it back by Minister Mantashe, do you still believe that it is the private sector that creates jobs, and your job is to create the enabling environment for those real jobs to flourish?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, if the hon Leader of the Opposition had listened very carefully to my previous answer, he would have heard me say that all
stakeholders have an important role in the process of creating jobs. All of us have that responsibility. I am rather glad that all various stakeholders, unions, the private sector, community-based organisations and even financial institutions agree that we all need to work together to create the jobs that are necessary to bring down the level of unemployment.
Thank you very much, House chair.


Mrs H DENNER: House Chair, to the hon President, we have heard you say that initiatives are being embarked upon and there will be co-operation between government and the private sector, etc. to create jobs. We all know that, yes, there have been 1,2 million jobs created by the Presidential Employment Stimulus Programme, which is a wonderful thing, but it is short term jobs, and we need more permanent jobs to ensure that our people can look after themselves and their families. What I would like to know is would your government consider
... just to take a step back, we know that this programme is ending at the end of March 2025, which is quite a pity, but would your government consider relaxing restrictive labour legislation to also enable the private sector to create jobs because the private sector is the largest job creator in the country? Thank you, sir.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Labour legislation continues to be under discussions with our various partners and that is aimed at making sure that we consolidate and protect the rights that workers have and go to the extent of protecting them against things like injuries at work, calamities and death at work. They also go to an extent of saying how can we work together to increase more employment. So, it’s a combination of all those approaches that we have brought to bear in having discussions with labour and business in the various discussions that we are having.

The programme itself as it has been with, for instance, the social relief of disaster, has been rolled on from year to year. Meaning that we are looking at a way in which we can properly consolidate an initiative like that and institutionalise it. Those discussions are underway.

This programme has been found to be most effective indeed. We started off with the YES Programme - Youth Employment Service
- where we invited the private sector to bring in young people into employment for training. In no time as it unfolded, even the private sector entities that had brought them in just for the initial training found that many of them were so good that they kept them. So, employment then increased. With this
programme which you’ve spoken about as well, the President Employment Stimulus we opened it up and it has added up impacting on 1,7 million people, 85% of them being young people.

What we have found is that it is so effective that we are now looking at ways in which there can be permanence to it. As opposed, for instance to your Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, which offered many of our people more shorter-term job opportunities, this one offers them slightly more long term - a year or so. That has enabled them to gain skills and to be job prepared. A number of them, not too many, have now migrated out of the programme to find jobs in other sectors.
It makes young people job ready. It gives them the confidence and it gives them the ability to get into jobs and be productive and be really good contributing workers.

So, I tend to look at the more positive side. The positive side is that in a way, this is building a model. We are building a model that can be institutionalised for the future, but that can also lead to more permanence in terms of getting people who participate in it to be employed for a much longer period.
So, it is all good and your question also addresses a very important area which we are approaching in a very positive way rather than negatively and saying what is it that we can do to enhance the situation of working people in our country. We have 16,7 million of them and we are also looking at how can we increase the numbers and if legislation needs to be tweaked here and there to increase the numbers more, that’s precisely what all the partners need to be looking at and touching on.
I’m sorry, I went on a bit too long, but for me this is a very important issue as I’m sure it is important to you. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: House Chair, to Mr President, I’m really earning my keep today because I’m supposed to be hon Hendricks, but it also reminds me, Mr President, that you stood on this platform telling us that the Commission for Remuneration will finalise their work in January. We are still sitting here as members of this House not knowing what our packages are going to be. I hope, as an aside, you look into that matter.

On the question of unemployment, yes, Mr President, the YES Programme is certainly having a positive impact on young people. Would it not be possible for this ... you said you want to accelerate the programme ... what we find is that there needs to be discussion with tertiary institutions and
business, as you said, to match the required skills in the marketplace and government because you find that students go to tertiary institutions sometimes and just study something that’s not appropriate for the market. The other arena, hon President, is the question of vocational education. Not everybody needs to have a degree, a BA or undergraduate. What about the plumbers, electricians and everybody else who earn a lot more money than us because they’ve got this vocational ability? What can be done in that regard? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Our focus now as we support for educating young people is to ensure that they are getting skills, that is, their education is more geared towards the vocational side of things rather than just pure academics.
Even as we look at the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, funding, the Minister of Higher Education will tell you that we are now going way beyond 1,2 million in terms of applications, and we are going to be funding almost a million or so of young people. We are now tending to get more young people to get into, not so much your universities, of course most young people want to go to universities, but we are tilting more towards saying colleges, TVET colleges where they can go and learn real skills, vocational skills and also showcasing that it’s good to be a plumber, a boilermaker, a
fitter and turner and to have all those wonderful skills that are useful in the industry.

We also engage with the private sector to help us, particularly at the college level, to craft the curriculars that are going to bring about the skills that are needed in the industry. A number of companies have taken to adopting, if you like, or co-operating with our colleges and some of them are even deploying lecturers so that we can sharpen the widths and the skills of our young people.

So, the direction and the movement are towards more vocational skills and making young people become more and more aware that that is where they are employability lies because it’s pretty pointless to go and earn a degree and find that that degree does not equip you to be employable. We are finding that many of the young people who are getting real employment are those who have skills that are required by the industry and who are able to contribute in a more practical way. We are moving more and more in that direction. So, thank you very much for raising the question.

Question 4:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, this government has acted decisively and with purpose to respond to the findings and recommendations of the state capture commission. I addressed Parliament soon after the report came out and covered quite extensively the response that this governmnet is going to have. In October 2022, I submitted my intentions with regard to the implementation of the recommendations thereof.

Among other things, the state capture commission made
200 recommendations with respect to criminal investigation and possible prosecution of individuals, entities as in companies, and named groups of people. These recommendations were directed by the commission to law enforcement agencies. The commission also made recommendations with respect to further investigation of and possible action by the relevant bodies against individuals and entities for disciplinary offences, tax offences, delinquency of directors and other activities.

The Presidency provided each of the bodies to which such recommendations were directed with copies of each part of the report as they were received from the commission, so that they may act on the recommendations in line with their respective mandates. As has been reported on several occasions to this
Parliament and to the public more broadly, these recommendations are currently receiving attention from a number of law enforcement agencies and other bodies.

Therefore, with regard to the recommendations in respect of criminal investigation and possible prosecution and other actions against individuals, the President has fully acted upon the recommendations of the commission.

As I indicated in a written reply to this House on my birthday, 17 November 2022, any actions that I take with respect to members of the executive about whom the commission made findings will be informed by the outcomes of the processes that are undertaken by the relevant entities that have the responsibility and capacity to do their work.

The extensive actions that this administration has taken on the recommendations of the state capture commission — including the introduction of draft legislative changes that are currently before this House — have been detailed in several public reports. The most recent comprehensive report was published in November 2023, and there is a searchable online database that enables members of the public and indeed Members of Parliament to track progress because we have
dutifully put that online. If we are able to follow what we are doing online, we will be able to see what progress is being made.

Now, there is the continuous fable going around that we are doing nothing about the recommendations of the state capture commission. That is a lie because a lot of work is being done. Soon after that report was tabled, I took the trouble to come to this boduy to outline precisely what the government’s response is, to identify all those 200 recommendations and to detail precisely what various agencies themselves have to do. As I’ve said, we will take action when those agencies that have the capacity and the capability to do the work they should do, have come forward. Some of them have an investigative capacity while some of them have a prosecutiorial capacity. That is what is going to guide me and should guide us all. Legislative pieces have been put here and when you go through that online database you’ll find that we are tracking everything that the Zondo Commsission has recommended. So, I want to repeat that it is not true that nothing is being done about the recommendations of the Zondo Commission.
Mr V F HLABISA: Hon President, thank you very much for the response to the question. I must say that the response sounds very nice.



Mr V F HLABISA: The only problem is that no matter how nice the response is, what people see is different to the response. Now ... the question I’m going to ask, hon President, I presume it will get a similar response to what you have given. It will add to the public because what we saw in the action taken against the Deputy Minister is what the public is expecting in relation to the state capture report.

My question therefore is, can we expect anything before the end of this term ... action taken out of the state capture report?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mr Singh, your neighbour and a member of your party, said he’s not a sangoma. We may have taken that very lightly but I hope you are not suggesting that I should be a sangoma. However, where there would be and where there is any form of evidence that speaks to the issues I was addressing, yes, action will be taken because we have to take
action based on facts, on real information. Without that we would just be speculating and I would urge that all of us ... not that we should be scientific but what all of us should be endowed with is some ability to be able to sift chaff from facts, and say where there are facts, action needs to be taken.

In answer to your question, if there is that evidence and those facts, yes, action will be taken. Thank you.


much, hon President, for your comprehensive response to this question. We have noted that significant progress has been made to bring those responsible for state capture to justice. Implicated individuals and businesses are under investigation and stolen funds are being recovered progressively.

Hon President, could you please provide more information on how these recovered funds have helped to enhance growth and also to boost investor confidence?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: A great deal of follow through has been happening, following the state capture commission’s recommendations and findings. You are touching on a very
important aspect which we don’t often pay attention to. For instance, the recovery of monies that were stolen have run into billions, I mean real billions. From a tax point of view, the follow through has also been taking place and billions have been paid in taxes for those who were either dodging the payment of taxes or concealing whatever, and where contracts that were not supposed to have been entered into having been cancelled. I can count that it amounted to something like
R86 billion at some stage, which is a substantial amount of money.

So, on that silent part of monies that are being recovered, taxes that are now being paid and contracts that are being cancelled, asset forfeiture has also been part of this whole process where well over R64 billion worth of assets has been forfeited to the state.

So, all these things speak to what is being done. This is not a fable. It is possible that maybe we don’t communicate enough and we don’t beam this out sufficiently because this is what the people of South Africa ought to know. The commission cost us well over a billion rand but the recoveries have been way above what we paid to get the commission underway. There are still going to be more recoveries and there are still going to
be more arrests. There are investigations that are underway. As we speak, our prosecutorial or criminal justice agencies are busy with a number of those cases. Of course, as South Africans, we want to see everything happening now and we want to see big names now. We want to see all those things happening now.

The findings of the commission were just two years ago and these things in the government system do take time but they are happening. Monies are being recovered, taxes are being paid. So, there is progress and all I would say is, yes, we should open our eyes and open our ears, and we will see more. Thank you very much.

Mr S N SWART: Hon President, the ACDP appreciates that progress is being made. Having served on the Eskom inquiry here in Parliament, we also saw Members of Parliament coming together to get to the bottom of state capture and corruption, and then the Zondo Commission ...

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry, I didn’t hear that.


Mr S N SWART: I said that we appreciate the progress that is being made and that many of us served on the Eskom inquiry
that preceded the Zondo Commission. However, we fully appreciate that it’s an avalanche of cases. It’s an avalanche of cases ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): My apologies, hon Swart. Will you just switch off the microphone of that member. Please proceed, hon member.

Mr S N SWART: Hon President, we also appreciate that it’s an avalanche of cases and these are very complex forensic cases requiring a lot of funding.

Given that, hon President, I’m sure you would agree that additional funding should be given to the law enforcement agencies. It is a concern when we see budget cuts, and possibly the funds in the Criminal Assets Recovery Account, Cara, can go towards these law enforcement agencies that can collect billions of rand, and can leverage an extra
R500 million and collect R10 billion so that we can recover those ill-gotten gains. Thank you, President.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Swart. Yes, indeed you are absolutely right. We need to resource those criminal justice agencies even more because when they do
their work they do it thoroughly and they, including the SA Revenue Service, Sars, therefore need to be capacitated. When we have capacitated Sars we have found that they are able to collect more and more taxes on behalf of the nation. So, you are right. Whatever budget rationalisation we have to go through needs to take that into account. If nothing else, we need to give them more and more funding.

I’ve actually seen it with the police. Over years — and hon Groenewald keeps a close eye on this — what we have tended to do is to, sort of, short-change the police and the Defence ... budget over 11 years and more. It is now that we are increasing the number of police by 30 000 over the past three years that we are going to start seeing gains. Although they still need to be well trained and well skilled, we are going to see a complete reversal of the downward slide that we were on. Similarly with Defence, but more importantly in the areas that you are talking about, those criminal investigative agencies need to be given more firepower.

The Cara funds are also being deployed for some of those purposes but we need to be deploying more and more fiscal firepower to those agencies so that they are able to do their
work. Once again, thank you very much for that suggestion as well.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: President, speaking to a group of international investors at the Financial Times Africa Summit in London in 2019, you put the estimate of the amount of money that the country has lost to state capture at about
R500 billion, if you remember correctly. In fact, you said its more than that. However, when you consider that the Asset Forfeiture Unit has been granted freeze orders of about
R14 billion for state capture-related activities and about R8,6 billion in corrupt proceeds has been returned to the state, and no senior figure or political figure has been arrested while we know many of them were involved in state capture, would you confidently say that you have been able to disentangle government from a comprehensive web of state capture-related entanglements, given what I’ve just said?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: One of the things that we have been able to do in the current administration is to enable those agencies to act independently, and to act according to their mandate and the ethos that is set out in our Constitution. Empowering them with those underpinnings, if one
can call it that, has enabled them to do their work more effectively, without any fear, favour or prejudice.

When we see our state agencies acting, we should know that they do so independently, having done thorough investigations and having done thorough work. I’ve tended to say that they need to be given that leeway completely, so that they do their work without any political interference. And, they should be able to make the decisions and the choices, however difficult they may be.

In this regard, I expect them to continue conducting their investigations. I have even told them publicly, do your work. All we have to do is to create that political environment that will enable them to do their work. So, in the end as they do their work, I am sure that they will come to deal with whatever case ... small, medium, large, important, highflying or whatever. They will be able to do so, and when they do so, we should allow them the space and the ability to do the work that they should, because if we don’t, then we should all be concerned. This is precisely part of the reforms that we have put in place to capacitate our law enforcement agencies.
In some respects we know that under state capture their attention had been diverted and they had been weakened, to a point where a number of really good people in those agencies had left, and had been sidelined and dealt with. So, for me the important part of the reforms, which many people don’t really give government kudos for, is precisely to strengthen government and to enable government agencies to act in accordance with the principles that are set out in our Constitution. And, when they do so, hon Kwankwa, we will get to the point that you are mentioning now. Thank you very much.

Question 5:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, this administration places a premium on good governance, due process, and the rule of law. The House made certain determinations in relation to Deputy Minister Dipuo Peters. I have sanctioned her in relation to these. In my view, the sanctions imposed on her was commensurate with the breaches this House found her to have committed, over and above the sanctions imposed by this House.

Other current members of the executive, implicated by the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, have not been charged or found wanting in terms of
ethical breaches by anybody or entity at this stage, by anybody or entity at this stage. That is important.

As I have said before in this House, any actions that I take with respect to members of the executive about whom the commission made findings will be informed by the outcomes of the processes undertaken by relevant entities. [Interjections.] I have said that ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon President, our apologies. Will you disconnect the microphone of the hon Liezl van der Merwe, please? And may I remind the hon members who are on the virtual platform, please, do not switch on your microphones when you are not recognised to do so. You are disrupting the proceedings.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: As I have said in the past in this House, any actions that I take with respect to members of the executive about whom the commission made findings will be informed by the outcomes of processes undertaken by the relevant entities. Let me say that when you look at the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture Report, in a number of cases, it has said further investigations need to be made in this regard and so on and so
on. That has helped to inform me that there is a role for a number of other entities to do their work, as I have been saying.

It is important to note that Parliament, as being part of these entities, itself has an important role in combatting corruption and state capture through its own committees, for instance, through the Ethics Committee and the Powers and Privileges Committee. So, I want to repeat that I have been saying that various entities, which we have empowered and continue to empower to do their work, must do their work, because, in the main, they tend to have the capacity and ability to do their work much more thoroughly. And they have that right to do precisely what they are required to do. I thank you.

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, through you to the hon President, this question is not about the Zondo Commission; this is a question about ethics and integrity. You said that you want facts. Now, let me give you some facts about this specific case of the former hon Minister of Transport.

Firstly, she did not appoint; she failed to appoint a Group CEO. The then board, led by Popo Molefe, found and discovered
R14 billion of irregular expenditure, which they started investigating, and then the hon Minister intervened and even dismissed these investigations, where a the High Court of South Africa then found that she was irrational, unreasonable and unlawful. So, the High Court found that one of your Ministers acted unlawful. She even stopped further allegations of corruption.

Now, hon President, my question and follow-up to you is: What criteria do you set, as President, for your Ministers to comply with, when it comes to integrity, because these actions are undermining your integrity, when we speak about corruption? Or is it because the other gross conduct was that this hon Minister actually allowed the use of Prasa buses in 2014 and 2015 for ANC activities, without ensuring payment of that? I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, yes, I do place, as I said in my headline reply, a high premium on good governance, on adherence to the rule of law and on, underlined, due process. And I would say due process is an important criterion, as one forms a view on the issue of integrity. And in this regard, as I ended my reply, I said, Parliament has an important role to play too, in combating
corruption. And in this regard, Parliament took action. And. Parliament, having taken action, informed me that, indeed, further action needed to be taken. And that is precisely the action that I took. It is the action that I decided on and, in the end, one can say, right or wrong. However, in the end, I am the one who took the action, based on a number of factors, including what Parliament decided on. In the end, it is the President who decides.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: House Chair, Mr President, I get a sense that hon Groenewald wants you, in a bizarre manner, to disregard any due process, overlook any nature of allegations. In fact, he wants you to simply adopt a one size fits all template, all in the name of this undefined so-called democratic practice.
Can the President, therefore, please reassure this House and the nation that your commitment against corruption follows due process and is done on a case-by-case basis?

Dit is ’n swak verkiesingsfoefie wat u gebruik.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair and hon Dyantyi, I see that you were able to bring a smile on Mr
Groenewald’s face. It is often good to see him smile a bit. Yes, hon Dyantyi, as I said in my reply, I place a great deal of premium on the rule of law, due process, and good governance and those to me are very important.

However, the issue of due process is precisely what sometimes we don’t pay attention to. And we do need to pay attention to that. There should be due process, however difficult any matter may be. This House has recently dealt, and I have said this in the past and without being facetious, with the cases of a number of highly appointed individuals. And I must commend the House for following due process, for not acting just on allegations, for having given itself time to go through the processes, some of which are laid out in our Constitution, and coming to a final decision.

That must stand us in good stead as South Africans. And it is a process, hon Dyantyi, that actually strengthens our democracy, rather than weakens it. It makes our democracy stronger, because we are able to demonstrate that, yes, even if there are whatever form of allegations and sayings and whatever, we will follow due process and we will finally get to the real heart of the matter and take action.
And this for me is important and may this continue to be what defines the hallmark of our democracy. Thank you.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, you wanted kudos, so, let me give you some kudos. You certainly talk a good game, but the reality is you are not serious about fighting corruption in your own party. If you were serious, you would not be sitting here with the Deputy President with a slew of allegations over his head, you would not be sitting with the Speaker who has allegations over her head, who has been raided. And if you were serious, your lists would not be filled with people who were accused in the Zonda Commission of State Capture.

Mr President, you just mentioned that Parliament plays a very important role as a stakeholder in the oversight of this, and that serious matters require accountability. Those were your words. Mr President, do you accept that the Speaker’s house being raided by the National Prosecuting Authority is a serious matter? And do you believe that she should step aside to protect the integrity of this House and its envisaged role in fighting corruption?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! Hon President, before you proceed, I recognise the hon Boroto.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chair, on a point of order: This is a new question, and it has nothing to do with what we are dealing with. This is pure, pure gossip. It is pure gossip, and it is a cheap shot. I really want to appreciate that the President does not respond.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Hon members, the question posed by the hon Groenewald specifically refers to, as an example, a Deputy Minister and members of the executive, and the member’s interest in process. Now, this is a new question. This has no bearing on the primary question. Order, hon members! And as we know, a follow-up question must relate directly to the primary question that has been asked.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I am not wanting to get into a quibble with you, but if you read the Rule further, it says, or arises from the response. The President opened the door when he said Parliament has a role to play in combating
corruption. The President himself, in his response, has opened the door for us to now discuss Parliament’s role in this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The Speaker is the representative of this House. The door was opened by the president himself.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, now, whether the door was opened by the President or not, the fact remains that the due process that the President has referred to has not been followed, and if you want to, you can submit the substantive motion or complain to the Ethics Committee.
So, the Ethics Committee can consider the matter. Right, that is where we are, hon members. I don’t know, hon President, if you want to respond to anything, but really this is a new question.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, your Ruling is my command.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, in terms of the request for questions to the President, there was a
fourth opportunity that was available for a supplementary question that has not been taken up by the parties in terms of the rotation. I don’t know if there’s anyone who wants to make use of an opportunity. Order, hon members! Is there any other political party? No, thank you, honourable Members. Now I apply the principle of fairness. So, if you had an opportunity, I would not allow you again.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I will proceed to question number six that has been asked by the hon
... Yes, hon member.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, on a point of order: The NA Table advised earlier in the day that this was opened for parties to apply. They were then allocated. I was notified by the NA Table that I would get the slot on this fifth follow-up question. You can check this with the NA Table. The slot should have come to me in terms of the agreed procedure for this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, this was not brought to my attention. And I simply, in terms of the Rules, will have a discussion with the NA Table around the matter. But if you look at the sequence, ... And, in fact, hon
Leader of the Opposition, you had an opportunity to ask a question. It is a matter that they should have consulted with the presiding officer, before making such allocations. And in respect of that, I rule that we proceed to question number six. Hon members, order! Order!

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I accept your Ruling in that regard, but nonetheless, you have put the question. Nobody else wants to put a question. I raised my hand and therefore, the slot remains vacant and can be filled. There is plenty of precedents where people don’t want to take up an opportunity then the person wanting to raise their hand


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, that is subject to the presiding officer making a determination whether you had a fair opportunity, and I have ruled that that opportunity has been given to you.

Question 6:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon members, one of the most important pillars of government’s economic recovery plan is a significant increase in infrastructure investment. This has meant that we have had to give specific attention to effective
project preparation and the mobilization of funding on a far larger scale.

We have amended the Division of Revenue Act to provide for the pledging of future infrastructure grants to crowd in private sector finance and to leverage external technical capacity.

This will facilitate integrated planning and implementation. It will also enable the development of a funded maintenance programme, a monitoring and evaluation framework and a governance structure to manage the programme delivery.

I previously spoke about the Northern Cape and the Eastern Cape as pilot provinces to address the social infrastructure backlog in schools as well as in housing.

Infrastructure SA is making use of its project preparation facility to support the two pilot provinces to develop quality business cases for submission to Treasury’s Loans Coordinating Committee and the budget facility for infrastructure.

Through this mechanism, we will ensure that social infrastructure, particularly health and education infrastructure, is delivered in a manner that is cost
effective and rapid. It will also help to increase the participation of the private sector, both in terms of financing this build programme and also drawing on its expertise and capabilities.

As part of capacity building, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, MISA, is developing guidelines for municipalities to use for project scoping and packaging.
Importantly, the Municipal Infrastructure Grant makes provision for a portion of the grant to be utilized for refurbishment.

Through these efforts, the infrastructure build programme is starting to gain momentum. Infrastructure projects worth over R230 billion are currently in construction, across the country, including in areas such as energy, water, roads, rural bridges, human settlements as well as student accommodation.

These projects are contributing to greater economic activity and creating employment while improving the lives of South Africans and expanding the capacity of our economy. Thank you, hon House chair.
Moh G K TSEKE: Moporesitente, re a leboga ka karabo ya gago e e tlhamaletseng e bile e re netefaletsa gore Aforika Borwa ke naga e e tlhabologang, e e tlhamang ditiro. Ke ka moo batho ba tla tswelelang pele go nna le tshepo mo pusong e o e eteletseng pele.

Hon president, government has developed an approach of intervening directly, particularly when municipalities struggle to provide basic services.

The Hammanskraal cholera incident and the lost lives are also a result of a DA-led municipality that did not co-operate with the National Department of Water and Sanitation to support the municipality in resolving the challenges of wastewater treatment plant in the Rooiwal. We welcome the progress of the national government intervention, Mr President.

In Standerton, Mr President, SA National Roads Agency Limited, SANRAL, is also upgrading the roads to high quality standard.

Mr President, building on the foundation laid by the District Development Model, DDM, approach: What measures will the
national government take to ensure timely intervention and consistent basic service provision through quality infrastructure development and maintenance in municipalities with challenges? Ke a leboga [Thank you], House Chair.


MOPORESITENETE WA RIPHABOLIKI: Motl Tseke, ke a leboga ka potso eo.

Hon members, yes, we have, overtime, realized that the number of weaknesses that prevail in various structures of government, particularly local government, have led to the failures of service delivery and have led to, in the case for instance of Rooiwal in the Tshwane Metro, loss of lives and that has saddened us.

And you raise the issue of the Rooiwal water treatment area where the Department of Water and Sanitation have, over many years, implored the local government to make the necessary interventions set out in legislation. And where they have failed to do so, it came to our attention that we needed to act as national government and utilizing the provision in the
law we’ve been able to do precisely that, in a way to override the weaknesses of local government and take action directly.

Your question is: What will we do to ensure that these things do not happen again? And obviously through monitoring and evaluation, increasing the capability of our department in that regard will be like the antenna that we need to ensure that we are aware and able to see there are those weaknesses as to enable us to act with much greater speed and effectiveness.

We are already doing precisely that, and we are finding that it pays great dividends. But we do not do that to the exclusion of the local authority itself, and we seek
co-operation and collaboration, particularly through utilizing the District Development Model, which has become very effective in a number of areas where it has been fully embraced.

And, of course, we now want to move to a point where working together with stakeholders, all of them, will be something that we should rely on more and more.
We are looking also at broader involvement of stakeholders in key metros in our country. There are quite a number of metros that are facing serious challenges and eThekwini is one of those, Tshwane is one of those and a number of others. And this is where national government will be making interventions, working together with, obviously, all our colleagues at that level to make sure that the people of South Africa are well-served in the areas where they live.

So, we have found a very effective method of being able to intervene and we’re going to do it more and more to bolster the effectiveness of good governance in all those places.
Thank you very much, House Chair.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, you talk a good game and while you talk about infrastructure ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... the DA is doing in Cape Town. Its infrastructure budget is larger than eThekwini and Johannesburg put together. Spending R120 billion over the next
decade on infrastructure and the bulk of this, because you asked, is being spent on upgrading water and sanitation infrastructure in the poorest areas to bring dignity to people.

But look at what you’re doing in Durban and in Johannesburg with your coalition partners in the EFF. No water in the taps, no sewage pump stations working, people’s dignity being eroded every single day. And it’s not due to lack of budget, it’s due to corruption and cadre deployment ... [Interjections.]

Ms T V TOBIAS: What is the question?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon members. Just switch off the microphone of that member.

Hon members, it’s not correct just to disrupt another member who’s having the opportunity, please.

Hon Steenhuisen!

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... it’s deployment that’s hollowed out the ability of the state to deliver.
Mr President, will you take personal accountability, because you like to blame Mr Zuma and others, for the damage that you caused and through cadre deployment, hollowing out social infrastructure in the country when you were the Chairman of the ANC’s Cadre Deployment Committee at the height of state capture? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, listening to hon Steenhuisen one would think that we live in a completely different world and country. And, indeed, we seem to do that.

Hon Chairperson, we are making all efforts ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Haai [No] man. Hon President, our apologies once again.

Just terminate and switch off the sound feed from that hon member.

Please proceed, hon president.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House chair, we’re focusing our attention on how we can improve the lives of South
Africans and how we can improve service delivery. And I’m not going to be focusing on politicking or grandstanding. I’ll be focusing more on how the lives of South Africans can be improved and how we can make interventions, interventions that are already demonstrating that good work is being done. When we intervene, for instance, in Rooiwal, we found that we can gain a great deal of traction and begin to put things that were being done incorrectly over a number of years by the very DA-led municipality.

And, so, a great deal of traction is being done and I’m not going to stand here and politic about it because what matters most is improving the lives of the people of our country in various parts of the country.

So, I take responsibility for making sure that we improve the lives of our people. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Mr President, on the issue of infrastructure, will you consider a comprehensive study on the true state of infrastructure countrywide, so as to establish which infrastructure needs maintenance and which may need replacing?
And added to that, Mr President, is that you ensure that we have the necessary skills going forward to be able to deal with that. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Shaik Emam, this morning I opened - as I said earlier - the Infrastructure Symposium, which brings together business, investors, financial institutions as well as government leaders. And this time around we also have had government leaders from other parts of Africa. One of the things we talked about was the progress that we are making on infrastructure development in a number of key areas. And one of the things I’ve said quite often is that we found that with the development that we are engendering, we are beginning and continuing to have a much greater grip and understanding of the infrastructure needs of our country.

You come up with a good suggestion that, have a study and it will possibly be more, consolidate the studies that we now have, the research that we now have and bring it all into one, if you like, a document or centre.

We now have a much better grip and understanding on the water framework in our country. We now have a much better
understanding of the roads infrastructure in our country. The human settlements and the needs that we have, for instance, in health, particularly in the facilities and all that, and bringing that all together, obviously, will bring to bear our own and enrich our own understanding.

This morning we also launched what we call a construction book. The very first time in our country where we brought together the various infrastructure projects that are being implemented, that are close to implementation, that have been properly assessed and all of them have been brought together in one book, which we have made public. And we did so today, this morning, to the investing sector so that they can have a look at precisely what we’re doing. We said that by 2030 we are going to need R4,8 trillion investment in infrastructure.

And we also said that, obviously, and the point that you raise about maintenance, that we are also going to be looking at maintenance because we have tended to tilt more and more towards putting up infrastructure without focusing on maintenance and you have raised this a few times even in this Parliament and I applaud you and thank you for that because that enables us to focus also on maintenance.
So, to answer your question directly, we’ve got that research that is scattered all over and bringing it together will enable us to look at what are the infrastructure needs and what is underway.

The other area has been in project preparation, in getting the relevant skills that are required in implementing projects.
This is where your point is a very important one because once we know what the architecture, the landscape rather, of the skills needs or infrastructure needs and the skills needs are, when we bring them together, we will then be able to have a winning formula and a winning formula is precisely what we are looking for.

But thank you, once again, for the suggestion that you’re making. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, as in Question 5, only three parties have requested a follow up question. I will now give an opportunity to one of the parties who have not participated in a follow up question.

The hon Singh!
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I did give my name to the Table when they requested for names.

So, the last question to the Sixth Parliament to you, hon President. [Laughter.]

I’m glad the issue of maintenance of buildings has come up and you did indicate that at the local government level there are some measures in place to provide for maintenance. But the challenge is not only at local government level. At national and provincial level we have major challenges.

I mean, we read the other day on a quote from the Minister of Police. We paid more money trying to fix that thing than we paid for buying it and is sitting at home for four years not using an official building. We have buildings like this in Durban, that are managed by the province.

Now, while it’s important to maintain, Mr President, will you consider advising the Minister of Finance that we should top slice sections of the budget of each department to provide, specifically, for maintenance of assets, because many of these buildings go into a state of disrepair and we cannot use them afterwards? The same happens with water infrastructure,
electricity infrastructure and things like that. Thak you, hon Chouse Chair.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon house Chair, as the last answer I should say I agree. [Laughter.]

I couldn’t agree more and as I said earlier in answering hon Shaik Emam that one of the weaknesses that has prevailed in government is that we focus more on putting up the facilities, the buildings, without setting aside a budget on a continuous basis to maintain those facilities. Because if you look at every facility from an accounting point of view, there’s depreciation from the very day that you finished, it begins to depreciate and you need to start addressing the physical degradation of any facility that you build and you need to have the budget to be able to do so.

So, that is something that we need to inculcate in the culture of budgeting as well, in the culture of looking after the assets of our nation. It’s something that needs to be growing more and more amongst us as a culture and I welcome your suggestion and thank you very much for the suggestion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, that concludes questions to the President.

I want to thank the hon President for his presence in the chamber this afternoon and for the replies. Thank you.

Order, hon members. Order.

I now request you to stand and wait for the Chairperson and the Mace to leave the chamber.

That concludes the business for the day and the House is adjourned.

Questions to the President concluded.


Business of the day concluded.

The House adjourned at 15:57.



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