Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 13 Mar 2024


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary 


The House met at 15:00.


The Acting Speaker Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.





The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members. Hon members, the first item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster 3: Governance.

There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which question their members wish to pose the supplementary question on.
Order hon members!


Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to this sitting through the virtual platform.

The members who will pose supplementary questions, will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness amongst others has been applied.

If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technical difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Order Paper.

The first question has been asked by the hon F D Xasa to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. The hon Minister.

Question 144:

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRDITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, in 2018 released the framework for Local Economic Development, LED. The main intention of this was to guide all municipalities on how to approach the LED in the areas of jurisdiction and pursuant to the framework, the department partnered with various stake holders. The first one was Anglo American of SA, the Branch, Sibanye-Stillwater, to amongst others, strengthening the capability of municipalities and further assist in the infrastructure development of local municipalities. As we are speaking Anglo American is doing wastewater treatment in the Bojanala Municipality and Sibanye-Stillwater has finalised and concluded with Local Government, LG, Sector Education and Training Authority, Seta, the training manuals for all local municipalities on LED.

Furthermore, the department together with SA Local Government Association, Salga, contracted with municipal learning institute which is housed in eThekwini and has been conducting masterclasses to build capabilities.
The interventions which were required amongst others for this economic development and the role in local government, obviously is to strengthen the capacity, but also to review all the LED ... [Inaudible.] ... the strategies and laws. As a result, we have circulated to the Minister Mme Stella Ndabeni the standard draft bylaws which investigates township economies. And how you will handle the small business including the management of small businesses like spaza shops, small commercial and industrial economies in townships which will be in line with the spatial resilience and development, good administration and proper allocation of land use for governance of economic development.

The department has also planned to continue to implement these above interventions in the financial year of 2024-25. Thank you.

Mr F D XASA: Hon House Chairperson, attracting private investment requires all spheres of government to play a role by leveraging their local competitive advantage and developing new industries through the District Development Model, DDM, economic planning.
Hon Minister, considering the important of catalytic projects in generating employment and fostering economic growth at local government level and private investment, could you provide inside into the extent to which your department is actively assisting local municipalities in forming such projects by the public and private sector? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRDITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, the identification and confirmation of all our DDM’s One Plan catalytic project is already beginning to show results. It is a collaborative effort obviously between the three spheres of government. We will cite for example with the assistance of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa, the sixth catalytic projects which have been concluded between Goven Mbeki Municipality and Sasol. Sekhukhune District Municipality led by the Department of Water and Sanitation, consolidated all the six mining houses to develop water to the tune of about R6 billion for the Lebalelo Water Works. We also within these intergovernmental forums and structures continue to provide guidance and assistance through the provincial support teams which are headed by the Office of the Premiers supported by Misas.
We have also developed and put expects for example in about 11 municipalities in the North West, they have established the results management office which ensures that we give the skills for the identification and the financing.

Finally, the department has contracted the Development of Southern Africa, DBSA, on behalf of municipalities. Firstly, to develop catalytic projects, but to also find a pipeline and streams of financing projects that could be able to develop locally for municipalities and financially may not be affordable to those municipalities. Thank you, House Chairperson.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon M G E Hendricks. The hon Hendricks.

The hon Hendricks. The hon member is online, but his microphone is muted.

Hon Hendricks, will you switch on your microphone? I seems to me the hon member is not aware that I am calling him.
The next supplementary question will be asked by the hon Groenewald.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Hon House Chairperson, mayors play a big role in the local economy. However, in Lekwa-Teemane, a small town with a small economy in the North West, the biggest employer in the area is struggling to get responses from municipality for crucial planning of the business to such an extent that the business is planning to close down operations and move out of the area, the same as Clover in Ditsobotla.
These businesses put food on the table for 18 000 people out of the population of 60 000 through employment. This is detrimental to the local economy and job losses is a major scale just because of no communication from an ANC-led municipality and the cadres that have been deployed there.

Hon Minister, what will you tell the seven-year-old girl that is going to school hungry because of her dad who does not have a job anymore? When that little girl asks you: Why did the
ANC-led municipality not respond promptly to a mere thing such as an email, but a mayor can rent a car for a cost of R70 000 per month? Thank you, House Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRDITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, I manage municipalities I do not manage parties who govern those municipalities.

However, nonetheless I would say to the seven-year-old girl as I take over what you have raised, look into the email that was sent to the mayor, collaborate as I have said already in the North West, 11 of the municipalities jointly ourselves at the national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the provincial Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has already dispatched, not about to but has already dispatched capacity and support to assist those municipalities amongst other things to deal with service delivery, catalytic projects and create a friendly local economic development and a systematic process that is user friendly for business. I will ensure that Ditsobotla, currently, we have given support and we have also given additional administration. We have undertaken the count of employees to ensure that everybody outside the audit qualifies, but also there are no ghost workers infiltrating the system so that it improves. However, I will help hon Groenewald. Now I know that there is an email that was sent,
and the mayor did not respond to it. You will get the response.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, for economic development and economic growth in a local municipality one needs resources. Municipalities are continuously complaining that they are not allocated enough funding. However, the funding that we allocate supply chain had made it very clear, 40% on goods and services is lost because we do not get value for money.

What measures are you putting in place to capacitate those officials there together with ensuring that corruption is reduced to be able to boost economic development in those areas? Thank you.


AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, hon member, the department as I have indicated earlier on: Firstly, we drafted the policy and secondly, we assisted the municipalities with the framework for implementation. Thirdly, we placed for capacity and development. We appointed an institute to train both officials and councillors to ensure that they can work. We got
into partnership with business, particularly that is found in most of the areas within the business. We also appointed DBSA to provide capacity.

Fiscal allocation regarding LED is categorised under the equitable share where all municipalities locally get the equitable share for them to divide and cut the pie to the needs of their areas. Maybe we will assist at the supply chain only with the categorisation, but as you know supply chain is not part of necessarily financial planning but part of financial spending. So, we may want to go and look into the financial planning side of municipalities for them to be able to categorise.

In the past financial year, we even did an audit as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs of who is legitimately employed in the local economic development. Do they understand and can they form strategies? If you go to our One Plans now, where all district except of course those who do not want to be part of the DDM because they choose not to. The City of Cape Town and Tshwane and all those. They do not have the local economy.
No, do not worry, you have run Tshwane down! You cannot even keep birds, what about Local Economic Development. Capacitate officials so that you will be able to do that. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr M G E HENDRIECKS: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, the government has provided R2 billion to combat gender-based violence. This money is found in different government departments. As we are nearing the end of the financial year, can the Minister request these departments to allocate the money they still have for the gender-based violence, GBV, budget and assist struggling NGOs before the budget year ends? Thank you very much.


AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, we run co-operative governance. The programme is headed by the Office of the Presidency. The Minister is here and the allocation that is been made is to assist the social office and the special focus offices that the Office of the Mayors in most municipalities run. It is not the direct budget that goes to municipalities. Municipalities also do allocate. I do believe that we could find additional information from our sister department to be
able to respond appropriately into the R2 billion, but we do not get an allocation, yet mayors are not stopped from their own budget to allocate for GBV and any other societal ills. The substance abuse and all that that could be prevalent in their area to deal with them on their social ills. On the R2 billion ...


... ngizawubuye ngibuye. [I will come back.]


Question 162:

Chair, in view of the recent recommendations by ... Okay, that's the question. The response is as follows. The fact is that all appointments in the Public Service are made in terms of legislation governing the employment of employees in the entire Public Service. The legislation are the Public Service Act of 1994, the Employment of Educators Act of 1998, the Correctional Services Act of 1998, the Defence Act of 2002, the Intelligence Services Act of 2002 and the South African Police Service Act of 1995. The Minister continues to lead and support the government’s policy on the professionalisation of the Public Service, which is an initiative emanating from the
President's response plan to the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including organs of state.

As this issue is currently on appeal by the DA, let me remind this House that the court has found no wrongdoing by the Department of Public Service and Administration. Thank you, hon House Chair.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: House Chair, as I listened to the Minister's response, I do wonder if she's aware of a new report from the Public Service Commission, PSC, entitled Public Service Reforms Towards Professionalisation: A Public Service Commission Perspective. With this document, the PSC joins the state capture commission, the framework for the professionalisation of the public sector and the new Code for Ethical Leadership in its rebellion against cadre deployment. The PSC, as the custodian of professional ethics in the public sector, says:

The role of the ANC deployment committee ... cannot be ignored ... The current emphasis on political deployment needs to be replaced by a focus on building a professional
Public Service that ... is sufficiently autonomous to insulate it from political patronage.

Despite the growing rebellion against cadre deployment, the Deputy President yesterday told the National Council of Provinces that ANC cadre deployment is, “brilliant.” So, hon Minister, who do you agree with? The PSC, which has joined the rebellion against cadre deployment or the Deputy President who defies the PSC, the Zondo Commission and other institutions by continuing to defend cadre deployment corruption as brilliant? Thank you.


indicate once more that the DA has chosen to take the matter, which it lost in court, on appeal. So, they can't come here, wanting to reopen that court discussion. Here we debate the professionalisation report from the PSC ... is what we as the ANC-led government are acting on. Thank you.

Dr J NOTHNAGEL: The narrative that the deployment of cadres is unconstitutional and unlawful has no basis in law. Hence, the High Court correctly found that the DA failed to point out any text, neither in the Constitution nor any statuses that
support their claims. It is an ideological and philosophical preoccupation of liberal extremists and new conservatives who want to declare as unlawful and unconstitutional any policy that seeks to dismantle and transform the apartheid colonial and patriarchal social and economic legacies. Their case was a failed antitransformative intervention through the courts.

What are the global patterns of governing parties and the deployment of senior officials in the state relative to cadre deployment as practised by the ANC and what the DA practises where it governs through its federal committee, chaired by Helen Zille? I thank you.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, before I recognise the hon Minister, may I make the following appeal to you. When hon members ask a question, you expect the Minister to respond. Now, there are so many discussions taking place very loudly in between that it's difficult from this side to even follow what hon members are saying. So, if you have an urgent matter that you feel cannot wait until later on, please just go out of the Chamber and go and discuss it outside with your colleague. The hon Minister.

Chair, I will repeat and indicate that the court ruled that there's nothing unconstitutional about the cadre deployment policy of the ANC. Actually, with respect to the follow-up question, what is practised the world over is that when there are changes in political party leadership in any government, the staff ... the managers that would have been there ...
We've seen it happening between the Republicans and the Democrats as they dance in the USA. We've seen it in the Western Cape, that when utata Mqoqi was a municipal manager here, he was chased out when the DA won. So, there's truly nothing that ... I don't know what it is that the DA wants to see or wants to find. However, you make them look better when you say they are liberal parties. In my view, I would still want to see what is liberal in the policies that they drive. Thank you.

Mrs H DENNER: Hon Minister, a lot of fuss is being made about the professionalisation framework. I think you've mentioned it four times already in your answers today. So, I want to know whether you agree that the mere fact that the professionalisation framework is necessary 30 years into ANC governance is an acknowledgement that the Public Service has
deteriorated under your government to a place where we need this framework and where professionalisation of the Public Service has to start from scratch? And, if you do not agree with that, then why is this professionalisation framework being held as the answer to all the problems that South Africans face with the Public Service 30 years into ANC governance? Thank you, Minister and thank you, House Chair.

Chair, it's quite interesting that now all of a sudden the professionalisation framework is a fuss. In any event, let us remind hon members that these 30 years have been 30 years of transforming both the Public Service and society. It has been
30 years of changing the quality of life of citizens, and the drivers of changing that quality of life are public servants. We can never be comfortable and say that because they are doing well there's nothing that must be done. The professionalisation framework seeks to take the rate of transformation that has been taking place which we have been driving in the Public Service to a higher level. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, it is quite clear that despite all the efforts being made in this regard, we still have serious challenges in the public sector, based on the fact that many of them are not fit for purpose and are not capacitated. Is it possible that your department can consider having an independent body to deal with the issues of appointments and the employment of office bearers?

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, did you catch that question?


last part which talks about the independent body. I'm not sure to do what.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam, will you just repeat the question clearly? Speak into your microphone, please.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Okay, thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, despite all the efforts to deal with the issue of the appointments and/or employment of office bearers in the country, we are still sitting with a serious problem in terms
of the lack of capacity, corruption and cadre deployment amongst all political parties. Is it possible for us to have an independent body of experts to deal with the appointments and employment without any interference from politicians and political parties? Thank you.

Chair, let me remind hon members here that before the NCOP now are two Bills that this House first approved, which talk to the agenda into the Seventh term of office around how to further professionalise the Public Service. Part of those Bills talk to the question of appointments ... how they will be conducted. I'm now not sure what the hon member ... when they have passed the Bills. What is it that is new that he expects of me? Thank you, House Chair.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. That concludes that question. Yes, hon member, why are you rising?

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry, Chair, I'd just like to rise on a point of privilege in ... section 47(3)(c) of the Constitution, which deals with membership of Parliament. Now,
the hon Shaik had a press conference last week where he announced himself as a ... as starting a new party. Now, I think it's important ...

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Let's give the hon member a chance. Order, hon members. Order, order. Maybe you know a little bit more than I do but let's hear the member.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, he started a new party and I think it's very important that Parliament confirms the membership of his existing party and whether he has a right to still be a member of this House.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon members, that is a matter that will be dealt with outside of the Question session. I have not seen any correspondence from anywhere alluding to that, and I'm quite sure ... Order, hon members! I'm quite sure that the party will inform Parliament accordingly if such a change will occur.

I will now proceed to Question 134 that has been asked by the hon Manyi to the Minister in the Presidency responsible for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. The hon Minister.
Question 134:

EVALUATION: House Chair, on an annual basis, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation submits a comprehensive report on the performance of government departments, sectors and entities of the implementation of the Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, in line with the seven priorities of our sixth administration.

The reports always contain recommendation for the consideration and intervention by the Cabinet, Cabinet clusters, SA Forum of Directors-Generals which is also called Fosad and the individual departments. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME must also identify issues emanating from the reports that should be included in the Annual Performance Plans, APPs subject to availability of resources in line with the budget.

The National Treasury is responsible for monitoring the budget, taking into consideration the input from us as the DPME and other centres of government such as the Presidency, Department of Public Service and Administration and definitely
the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta.

Budget expenditure reports developed by the National Treasury are presented to various decision-making bodies, such as the Cabinet. Recently, government has spent a great deal of time focusing on the situation in local government due to poor spending arising out of lack of capacity, poor planning and execution programmes. And that, we got from the Auditor- General.

These reports enable the Cabinet to identify early warnings and areas of intervention. This is part of why we are explaining that the leadership shown by President Ramaphosa in mobilising the private sector to engage with government to deal with the challenges of electricity and logistics industries, as well as fighting against crime in the country, will definitely be able to assist us to talk about an active citizenry as we speak about capacity of government.

Mr M MANYI: Minister, you know, as I sort of predicted that you would go in broad strokes, could you take South African people into your confidence and elaborate on the specific
early warning indicators that you observed regarding this deteriorating government performance and increasing budget deficit? What exactly did you see if you saw anything?


EVALUATION: House Chair, I've just explained that the National Treasury is the one responsible for budgets. Now how do we see if Annual Performance plans, APPs are not going to be implemented in time? We do that by sitting, which is usually a panel that is made of the President, myself and the Deputy President. Then we go through an evaluation and assessment of ministerial ... [Interjections.] ...

Mr M MANYI: I’ve asked you for specifics, Minister, please.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no, no, hon Manyi. Hon members, order the hon members. Hon Manyi,
you had your chance to ask your question. The Minister is now replying.


EVALUATION: Thank you. You asked a question and I'm replying. You are not the one replying, I am. So, you listen to my
answer. Listen to my answer! It’s okay if you don’t want to listen but I will answer. I am saying that through assessment of priorities that we have put in place from the APP, this is where we are able to see if programmes that have been put in place are implemented or they will be derailed.

That's how we can then now go around and be able to intervene by writing letters, engaging and making sure that our outcome facilitators would sit with different departments, including municipalities, to ensure that we go through each and everything that we would have been able to identify so that we can respond. That is my answer.

Mr K B PILLAY: Hon Minister, planning is a critical factor in determining the success or outcomes of policy implementation. Multiple internal and external factors have been found to cause patterns of underspending in government. What planning interventions are the department implementing to enhance planning at an operational level?


EVALUATION: House Chair, you know, in fact, we have realised that the issue of planning is not only something that is
special in our country, but it is all over the globe. We were responsible for something that is called ... [Inaudible.] ... in African Union, I'm just giving an example. We realised that one of the reasons that some of the implementation on infrastructure project is not moving forward is precisely because of this challenge.

From our side, we are saying that in order to enhance planning at an operational level and to resolve problems in communities, the department has prioritised the tracking of implementation of basic services in local communities. And recently, the DPME assessed 29 municipalities in terms of their capacity to provide basic services. That report was shared with the directors-general, DGs in governance, state capacity and institutional development cluster.

Currently, the report is being discussed in, Cogta to work out improvement mechanisms to support those municipalities in addition to various other supportive interventions in place.
The Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs is the responsible department to coordinate implementation of DPME’s recommendations at local government level.
The DPME has also collaborated with the Department of Cooperative Governance to analyse and improve the quality of the District Development Model, DDMs. One plans in order to provide a coherent longer-term vision and plan to each district and the metropolitan areas drawing inputs from all governments and broader society.

Lately, I've been informed that our department has been able to pilot some of the DDMs that are in place and those are namely OR Tambo, eThekwini and Waterberg and these have been able to support our cluster interventions to register progress in that regard. Furthermore, the DPME has also been tracking frontline services, prioritising the payment of social grants to ensure the quality of services and have ... [Time Expired.]

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Minister, cadre deployment and corruption is nothing new within the ANC. Do you agree with me Minister, that cadre deployment and corruption contribute to budget deficits, aging infrastructure and investor confidence are also very low. You've been mentioning so many reports, reports and reports and reports. Can you Minister, hand those reports over to me after this setting because the DA has a better plan
to rescue South Africa, not reports and reports and nothing is happening in our country. Thank you.

EVALUATION: Cadre development is a very important part of making sure that whatever it is that any political party needs to make sure that it happens when they win elections is deploying. And I'm saying this precisely because when you do cadre development, you take people who are qualified to ensure that whatever it is that you have said in your manifesto does take place. That's what cadre development is about. And I think there's a misconception about that. But we will have education to assist you with that.

In terms of the report, there is always a platform where you can go and get those reports, whatever it is that you need is on the government website. You can freely just go into your smartphone or whatever it is that you have and get it for yourself. I'm not your personal assistant, PA. Thank you.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, in light of various plans and initiatives launched by President Ramaphosa, such as the
Economic Recovery and Reconstruction Plan ... [Interjections.]



The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon member, hon members, I requested you earlier that we give the Minister who is supposed to respond to the question a fair opportunity to hear the follow up question. Otherwise, the Minister will not be able to respond. Please abide by that. Hon member, why do you want to be recognised?

Mr M MANYI: House Chair, I just want to ask you to please advise Ministers that when they respond, they are responding to the people of South Africa, to have an answer ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat!

Mr M MANYI: To have an answer that says I’m not your PA ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat.
Mr M MANYI: It’s an out of order answer.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat. Order. Order hon members. Order hon members!

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: In light of the various plans and initiatives launched by President Ramaphosa, such as the Economic Recovery and Reconstruction Plan and the Eskom compact, how does the Ministry assess the alignment of these initiatives with the key elements outlined in the proposed economy road map taking into account the shortcomings of government at departments, when one even goes further to look into the challenges that government departments have returned some of its unspent funds back to Treasury, but service delivery has not been provided to the communities what is the Minister's response on that one? Thank you.

EVALUATION: House Chair, I couldn't hear the whole question, however, I'll answer where I think I've been able to hear what the hon member was asking. The department has a section that deals with outcome facilitators. Our outcome facilitators are based on sectors.
So, when it comes to government policies and programmes, those outcome facilitators bimonthly make sure that they go and get reports from different departments, and we will then now be able to continue to have a report that we will give to Cabinet every six months to say that this is what we have been able to see. This is what we said, and it hasn't happened. Therefore, the intervention should be based on the following.

We do that together with our sister departments because at the end of the day, whatever it is that is planned for government, will be based on what we have been able to advise or recommend based on what we have been able to gather from those processes that I've just spoken about.

Question 149:

WITH DISABILITIES: Speaker, the SA National Defence Force-led National Youth Service represents a nationally co-ordinated government and industry-wide effort to reinforce our nation's ongoing war on youth unemployment through a massification of value chain-driven, sector-specific skills development, enterprise development, production brigades, and infant
industries to power up South Africa's reindustrialisation target.

In response to high structural unemployment, lack of industrial dynamism, high levels of market concentration, and legacy barriers to market access for new players, the programme will reinforce a deliberate and seamless skills-to- industry pipeline by training, capacitating, and leveraging the linkages between research and development, productivity, and empowerment of emerging industrialists.

To this end, each national service stream, or pathway, whichever you want to call it, will have enterprise development, technology transfer, a commercialisation unit responsible for infant industries development, product development, market access, and expansion from domestic to region and global value chains. We expect the programme to nurture and graduate sustainable and viable commercial enterprises that will absorb the national service graduates and trade in domestic and regional markets.

Further, we will bring together all the government departments and agencies to leverage the rich capacity, will, and
nationwide presence of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, for skills development, technology transfer, practical work- based learning, and the defence force will also build character and leadership capabilities. The government-wide initiative will also capacitate the youth into patriotic force multipliers and first responders to some of the nation's most immediate challenges, such as natural disasters, crime, declining infrastructure, low-level literacy, and inadequate access to primary health care, amongst others.

The initial national service stream will start with five streams. The first one will be food and agriculture value chain commercialisation. The second will be the maritime and ocean economy. The third will be engineering, construction, manufacturing, and infrastructure roll-out. The fourth will be the skills of the future. This will include a focus on digital technologies, electronics, robotics, and platform economies, amongst others. The fifth one would be the defence industries, public safety, and security stream. This will include areas such as facility management, and aerospace, amongst others.
The first cohort will be 100 000 recruited from across the nine provinces, but, of course, that will be the first cohort and it will grow from there. Thank you.

Ms A S HLONGO: Thank you very much, Minister, for the response, the defence force is critical in a nation and is a social and national symbol. We are happy that this programme will allow the youth to gain skills and comprehend patriotism. What social value can the SANDF contribute to our society through their specialised skills and experience? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: As you say, hon member, the defence force will build character, will give discipline to these young people, besides giving them the skills, technology transfer, and everything else, and that means that you will have a cohort of young, disciplined entrepreneurs who are patriotic as well because that's what the defence force is about. You can't be in the defence force if you are not patriotic. Thank you.

Mrs G OPPERMAN: Minister, what steps will you take to ensure that these capacitated youth are absorbed in the job market
and that they are living self-sustaining lives with real jobs thereafter?

WITH DISABILITIES: Obviously, you didn't quite listen to what I said. I said they'll be trained in skills, there'll be a technology transfer, they'll be trained as entrepreneurs, there'll be research and development, and there'll be the commercialisation of that research and development results.

So, we're trying here not to produce job seekers but we're trying to produce young industrialists. Thank you.

Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngibonge, Somlomo, Ngqongqoshe, ngokukhulu nje ukuhlonipha, uMongameli wakho u-Cyril Ramaphosa wathi ucela ukuthunywa ukuze alethe intuthuko kubantu bala eNingizimu Afrika. Manje nginenkinga la, izingane zethu zifundile, ziqedile ezikoleni, umbuzo lowo, ngakho umsebenzi aziwutholi. Mhlawumbe ubonile eThekwini odokotela bekhala ngemisebenzi, kanjalo nosonhlakahle anenkinga yomusebenzi, nothisha bafundile.
Ngabe wayesho ukuthi uzobathuma ukuthi uzobenzela amajoyinti nalawa amathaveni agcwele kusukela ekhoneni ukuya ekhoneni abulala intsha yethu na? Angilwi kodwa ngicela impendulo ngoba ngibona mina kusho ukuthi yena amathaveni lawa agcwele emalokishini abantu abamnyama ... [Akuzwakali.] ...

NOKUKHUBAZEKA EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga, okokuqala nje, ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha, Mama uKhawula, akuwona umbuzo wokulandela lo obuziwe lo owubuzayo. Uzibuzela nje eyakho into engahlangene nalokho ebengikukhuluma. Okwesibili, ungamubi mina uMongameli welizwe, unguMongameli wethu sonke. [Ubuwelewele.] Manje usumupha mina? UnguMongameli welizwe.
UnguMongameli wakho nawe.

Indaba yodokotela abangasebenzi, umangabe wawulalele ngesikhathi uNgqongqoshe Wezimali ekhuluma, wathi uzoyikhipha imali ukuze nalabo odokotela bakwazi ukuthola imisebenzi.
Izophuma imali futhi bazoyithola imisebenzi. Mhlawumbe abanye sebeqalile ukuyithola sebeyasebenza.

Ngakhoke ngisho ukuthi, yebo, beyikhona leyo nkinga kodwa into uma uthi iyinkinga kusho ukuthi isixazululo sisuke sikhona.
Isixazululo sezivelile ukuthi akukhishwe imali eyongeziwe iye eMnyangweni Wezempilo bakwazi ukuqasha odokotela. Ngiyabonga.

Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, hon Speaker, hon Minister, protecting our borders has been a priority of the IFP, more especially under Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi’s leadership. [Interjections.] Exactly. What I would like to know with regard to the African Continental Free Trade Agreement, AfCFTA, is how will the youth be capacitated under the SANDF to protect our borders against illegal exports that damage our economy and threaten jobs. Thank you.

uHlengwa, noma ungekho ngqo kodwa ngizozama ukuwuphendula. Okokuqala nje, i-African Continental Free Trade inephrothokholi eseceleni ebizwa ngokuthi i-Protocol for Women and Youth in Trade ngoba i-African Continental Free Trade ibone kubalulekile ukuthi abantu besifazane bangashiywa ngaphandle kulolu hwebo nentsha futhi ingashiywa ngaphandle.
Ngakhoke ngiyokucela ukuthi uyibheke le-phrothokholi khona uzohamba la uhamba khona utshela omama, utshela intsha, ukuthi nabo badingeka ukuthi bahwebe ngale-African Continental Free Trade. Umbutho wezokuvikela kulokhu engikubalile, ngishilo ukuthi umkhakha wesihlanu ...

... is defence and the security industry. So ...


 ... bazobona bona ukuthi baqeqeshwa komuphi umkhakha, kwizinkampani zani, ukuze siphephe la eNingizimu Afrika. Ngiyabonga.

Question 131:

AFFAIRS: House Chair, section 71 of the Municipal Structures Act read together with section 32 of the Municipal Finance Management Act, gives us provisions on how to manage the fruitless and wasteful expenditure that could be incurred by municipalities. What the department did supplementary to what the Acts both say was a secular which was developed to ensure to assist municipalities on the implementation and give them
guidance on how to manage the fruitless and wasteful expenditure, how to respond to the Auditor-General and how to create their action plans.

Supplementary to that, the establishment of municipal audit committees, which is the Municipal Public Accounts Committee, MPAC, were to review the comments but also to ensure that; one, all councils do appoint chairs of MPAC as it’s mandatory by the review of the Systems Act, now of rather the Municipal Systems Structures Act, and secondly, all of them were trained and thirdly, all of them were given the guidelines which compels the chairperson on a quarterly basis, amongst other things, to place a report to Council on any of either irregular and unauthorised on any of the forensics that the department could have done or even reports that could be done by the community in reporting any misdoing that could be happening in the municipality.

A code of conduct was developed which also calls for the appointment of fora in municipalities but also the creation of disciplinary boards. Amongst those, therefore, is to say that the fora is compelled; one, to discuss the audit outcomes, the audit action plan to oversee it but also to ensure that the
municipality act according to section 32, which is reporting back on a monthly basis coupled with section 71 of the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, where they deal with the reconciliation of finances on a day-to-day basis. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

Mr T LOATE: House Chair, the follow-up question to the Minister is whether she has taken any extraordinary action with regard to the whole of the Free State, Limpopo and the North West where the failure to obtain a single clean audit reflects on the extend level to which the mechanisms and measures of accountability is broken in local government; if not, why not, if so, what actions has been taken?


AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, with regards to improving the audit outcomes in the Free State, Limpopo and the North West, we collaborated with the provincial departments. We support municipalities in development, as I have said, beyond what the legislation has already done in November 2021. In terms of enhancement, we also support all the issues which have been raised by the Auditor-General. Also, the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs at the national level
through with province’s key of the outcomes of what is synonymous with all the municipalities in the Free State, Limpopo the North West and a portion of KwaZulu-Natal is record management and keeping regarding the transactions in the supply chain that has been made.

Thirty municipalities have been adopted by the programme of the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs of one records management and asset improvement. You will recall that in asset that is where you get the inventories of all the infrastructure related records to improve their capacity. It is very difficult for a small normal municipality to know, for example, how many boreholes do they have. However, that programme supports them in asset and records management.

So, currently the last municipality in Limpopo which had the disclaimer was Mopani and it is out of disclaimer because of the support programme into a qualified. It is still part of the municipal audit support programme plan that the department grants jointly with Salga. Currently, we have invested 14 municipalities beyond the provinces that we have listed to support them to be able to improve their audit outcomes. Thank you, Chair.
Mr X N MSIMANGO: Minister, the reliance on consultant in local government reflects a lack of sufficient technical capabilities within the municipalities, particularly those in rural areas and low revenue generation locations. The inability of many municipalities to attract and retain qualified personnel is a limitation. The appointing of officials without the requisite skills worsens the conditions. Now, Minister, the question is, what measures is the Minister implementing to strengthen financial and engineering technical capabilities in municipalities which are struggling? Thank you.


AFFAIRS: House Chair, the Municipal Enterprise Service Assessment, MESA, is tasked with amongst other functions ensuring that we develop the infrastructural capacity which is mostly at an engineering level to ensure that we assist municipalities with planning, deliver operation and sometimes being on site to ensure that they can start their project but also, they conclude them.

Firstly, they are running a programme on upskilling and reskilling of municipal staff and officials to ensure that the
municipal skills and the skill pipeline are being developed. Secondly, we also investigated a partnership ourselves with Engineering Council of South Africa to ensure that we adopt a programme of all engineers in the municipalities together with the regional planners to deal with the sufficient allocation of land use that municipalities have. Thirdly, we have dealt with the recruitment and the capacity building of municipalities regarding the development of competency frameworks to allow or to assist municipalities to be able to appoint correctly.

Finally, together with the Department of National Treasury. We have already submitted the draft report to the Cabinet in terms of the review and audit of all chief financial officers, CFOs, in the municipal space. Guess, those who always think that there is a cadre deployment, 97% of the financial units in our municipalities meet the requirements. They are chartered accountants, more educated than I am.

House Chair, what is of importance now, which is the second step, is to take them through a programme that has been developed by the National Treasury which makes them compliant regarding the Municipal Finance Management Act which is called
the Municipal Finance Management Programme, MFMP, given by the Witwatersrand University of the Wits Business School and the University of Pretoria for further enhancement in government management. Thank you.




Mr J F SMALLE: Hon House Chair, the municipalities failed to manage their financial affairs in terms of the Municipal Systems Act and the MFMA. They have been characterised as dysfunctional municipalities by the Auditor-General. During his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, Minister Godongwane announced that they received several applications from municipalities to have their Eskom debts totaling
R56,8 billion written off ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no, hon Khawula! I have requested previously that it is unfair what you are doing. It is unfair. May I request that those members who are conversing across the floor with one another go outside and to continue their discussions outside, please. Please, repeat the question, hon member.
Mr J F SMALLE: Thank you, Chair. The municipalities failed to manage their financial affairs in terms of the Municipal Systems Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA. They have been characterised as dysfunctional municipalities by the Auditor-General. During his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, Minister Godongwane announced that they received several applications from municipalities to have their Eskom debts totaling R56,8 billion written off.

The Minister further emphasised and said that, provided that these municipalities meet the following conditions include enforcing strict credit controls, enhanced revenue collection and up-to-date payments to current accounts owed to Eskom.
With 66 of 25% dysfunctional municipalities, a further 107 of 41% medium risk and only 10% stable municipalities, what guarantees can the Minister give that municipalities will comply with these conditions, that they will adhere to the various sets of laws and regulations and that administrative accountability will be the order of the day? Thank you.


AFFAIRS: Jointly the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the National Treasury have put up a Programme 1
and the criteria of the selection of the municipalities. Beyond the 67 that you talk about, the 107 which are also not financially stable, which are mostly small and rural municipalities, we are relooking into the fiscal on how they will be allocated.

The support and the guarantees are as we review, manage and monitor municipalities on a month-to-month basis. Jointly with the National Treasury through section 71. I will make an example, in the last financial year, Tshwane applied to take R900 million of its infrastructure grant to pay the Eskom bill and we approved that as the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. They paid the Eskom bill to the tune of R900 million. However, they are still now owing triple. I have no guarantees because I have given them the money and their debt continue. However, I monitor them monthly. On applications, I look on the merit basis and where it is necessary, they get approved. The R900 million of infrastructure was paid ... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: House Chair, the local government legislation deals with unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful, UIF & W, and one of them is that the municipal
manager must lay criminal charges at the SA Police Service, SAPS. So, it must be investigated, we know that almost no municipalities complied with this legislation. No municipal manager was held responsible for not complying with legislation in terms of their performance contracts. So, Minister, as custodian of the national legislation, what steps have you taken for municipal managers to comply with this legislation and what mechanisms did you put in place to hold them responsible for laying criminal charges in terms of UIF & W? Thank you, House Chair.


AFFAIRS: House Chair, I am not sure when he says that there are no municipalities. Currently, forwarded cases from municipalities including their currency to the law enforcement agencies, Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and all are totalling 324. Three hundred and twenty-four that is referred from municipalities to law enforcement agencies. Only 19 of those were the declarations that were signed by the President at the application of municipalities.

We are currently, as you might have seen, we had a round ... [Inaudible.] ... in terms of dealing with our ethical strategy
where the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, also came to make a presentation of that 324 on how far they would regard to prosecution. So, we do submit, hon Chair, and it is aligned to what I have raised, the section 32 of the MFMA. Thank you.

Question 154:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, House Chair and thank you hon Phiri for the question. As part of Brand SA’s mandate of developing and implementing the nation brands, marketing and brand reputation management, Brand SA undertakes continuous brand reputation, monitoring and coverage assessment and develops targeted responses or initiatives.
Some of these initiatives include a campaign to clarify why the continued participation of South Africa in the African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, is not only beneficial to South Africa, but is more beneficial through the US and other participating countries in Africa, and this was done to support the work of the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition in ensuring that the US considers a favourable extension of the Agoa Treaty and that favourable extension was considered for 10 years.

Also, Brand SA undertook the reinforcement of the government
messaging around the strength of the regulatory environment in South Africa during the unfounded allegations of the Russian weapons sale that was were proven to be wrong. Brand SA ran a campaign that reinforced the message that the regulatory environment in South Africa is not only sound, but it is also transparent. In addition, and with the collaboration with the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, on fake news, Brand SA continues to work with GCIS to make sure that when fake news are detected, they can be certified as that and be distributed across all our agencies and our missions with the support of the Department of International Relations and Co-operation to make sure that no fake messages are distributed internationally and in GCIS domestically. Thank you.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon Phiri.

Moh C M PHIRI Ke a le dumediia, ke boe ke tamiie Modulasetulo le Maloko a Palamente, gammogo le setihaba ka kakaretio. Tona, ke leboga karabo ya gago. O boletie ka Molao wa Kgolo le
Dibaka tša Afrika le maithomedi a mangwe, empa ke boa gape ke re Tona ...

 ... South Africa has several multilateral and bilateral relations with various nations, such as the African Continental Free Trade Area, AFCFTA, and Brics Plus. In particular, Minister, what initiative is Brand SA implementing to increase the economic opportunities for South African enterprises with the AFCFTA and the Brics Plus nations? Thank you.


TONA KA KANTORONG YA MOPRESIDENTE: Ke leboga Modulasetulo wa Ngwako, ke boe ke leboge gape le mohl Phiri. Brand SA e thuiana le Kgoro ya Bogwebi, Intasteri le Phadiiano le Proudly SA go taba ya Tumelelano ya Kgwebišano yeo e Lokologilego ya Kontinente ya Afrika. Tumelelano ye gonabjale e thomile go hlohlomiiwa. Re be re ioma le ba Kgoro ya Bogwebi, Intasteri le Phadiiano, Brand SA le ba Proudly SA go kgonthiiiia gore dithoto tieo di sepetiego ...

 ... when we were launching the coming into effect of the free movement of goods treaty of the AFCFTA, we could have participation of South African businesses. In addition, Brand SA works to organise participation in support of the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition of South African businesses in the initiatives of either Brics Plus as they started previously as Brics and also AFCFTA. All of them, including the World Economic Forum, Brand SA leads the marketing of Brand SA, and the products that are from South Africa. Thank you.

T The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon McGluwa.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, I’m unconcerned about the so-called steps mentioned by you. I'm not sure which Brand SA you're talking about because since November 2022, Brand SA does not have a board. You must be ashamed, Minister, that for three years you failed with the reconfiguration of Brand SA. You failed to appoint a board. Minister, do you agree with me that Brand SA reputation is
tarnished because of cadre deployment. Hon Tobias is a simple example. She was a Member of Parliament before, she came back and she was deployed to Brand SA, she came back here. And if you ask her questions, she will be answering, “I am not your PA.”

Andiyazi. Andiyazi.


Brand SA does not exist.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Before the hon Minister can reply, I see the hand of the hon Phiri.

Ms C M PHIRI: Unfortunately, he has finished. House Chair. I wanted to say that it’s a new question. Hon McGluwa ... [Interjections.] ... to the Rules.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Phiri! Hon Phiri! Hon members, may I just remind you that the hon McGluwa is aware of the Rules of the National Assembly, and that if you are casting aspersions on any sitting Member of Parliament, you
must do so by a substantive motion. And you cannot simply throw out the name and make certain allegations around the member without submitting a substantive motion. You are fully aware of that provision, and I request hon members to respect the Rules of the House that all of us are the custodians of and not to deliberately violate the Rules just to make a political point. It’s unacceptable. The hon Minister?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon House Chair, and thank you also on your ruling in terms of the casting of aspersions. And because hon McGluwa casted aspersions without a substantive motion, I'll choose not to respond to this question, but to indicate that there is a board of Brand SA appointed by the President. Thank you.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon Manyi.

Mr M MANYI: Thank you, Chairperson. Very quickly, I want to congratulate Minister Nkadimeng. I think she knows her story. Minister, by way of example ... [Interjections.]

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Order! Order, hon members.


Mr M MANYI: Minister? Chair?


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let us give the member the opportunity to ask his question. [Interjections.] Order, hon Phiri. Hon Phiri, you had the opportunity. Let’s give the other member an opportunity to ask a question. Please proceed.

Mr M MANYI: They’re jealous of Ms Nkadimeng. Thank you, House Chair. Staying on ... [Laughter.]

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick)): Order, hon members. The hon Manyi is itching to ask his question. Ask the question.

Mr M MANYI: Staying on the fake news team, Minister, by way of example, how has Brand SA dealt with the perception that Judge Zondo Commission was a witch hunt for all those opposed to Mr Ramaphosa even all others who were implicated in his report, are actually back in Parliament and in all of this, how is Brand SA dealing with the perception that South Africa does not take ... [Interjections.] ... seriously? Thank you, Chair.
Mr B RADEBE: Chairperson, on a point of order.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order, hon member?

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, the member on the platform has just refer to the sitting Judge of the Constitutional court and cast aspersions that he is a comrade. I think it’s definitely out of order according to Rule 88.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon Manyi, withdraw that comment, please.

Mr M MANYI: No, Chairperson, I think hon Hadebe has a listening problem. I did withdraw immediately. I said ...

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, just withdraw the remark - that’s all.

Mr M MANYI: I repeat the withdrawal.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Hon Minister? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon House Chair. And indeed, it’s a new question, but given that this parliamentary discussion is a matter of interest and is being watched by South Africans, I would like to clarify the following. The report on the commission on state capture was submitted to Parliament with an implementation plan which was adopted. As the executive, we are implementing the findings. There has not been a witch hunt on that part. You talked about members who are back in Parliament, I do not know that there’s a new Parliament already. I thought we were going to elections on 29 May and the Electoral Commission of South Africa, IEC, will then declare election results. As it refers to the ANC list process and any other process the ANC has clarified the process they followed to develop their list through a nomination process, through an interview process, through the work of their own integrity committee, through the work of their National Disciplinary Committee and also vetting. Those questions, when you want to ask, refer to the ANC and allow South Africans to determine whether the leadership pool that the ANC has put into the ballot is going to take this country
forward. As members of the ANC on this side of the aisle, we have confidence in the list of the ANC. Thank you very much.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I’ve been informed that the request for the last supplementary question was not received. We will thus proceed to Question 152 that has been asked by the hon Phiri to the Minister in the Presidency for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. The hon Minister?

Question 152:

EVALUATION: House Chair, the National Planning Commission, NPC, as the custodian of the National Development Plan, is responsible for the broader and long-term vision of our country, which is Vision 2030, and it comprises several experts who are from multidisciplinary sectors, and as a result, whatever it is that we do, we make sure that we take it from an informed sense of research. What the NPC does is that it advises the President - as I have already said - it also advises the Cabinet. But at the end of the day, what becomes more important is that we do make sure that we engage different stakeholders so that we can then now be able to make
sure that whatever it is that the NDP speaks about is also aligned with the provincial growth and development strategies, the Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, and all the other policies are put in place to be able to make sure that the government speaks as one and it moves as one. Thank you.

Vho C M PHIRI: Ndi a livhuwa Mudzulatshidulo wa Nn?u. Vho Minisi?a, ndi khou zwipfa na u tenda uri i a ?a ya vha ?ea ngeletshedzo sa Khabinethe. Fhedzi ndo vha ndi khou uri vha ?an?avhudze uri i ita masiandoitwa mangafhani kana ndunzhendunzhe ine ya itwa nga NPC kha ngeletshedzo dzine dza ?iswa kha Khabinethe ndi nngafhani? Hone idzo ngeletshedzo dzi a ?anganedzwa naa? Ndi a fulufhela uri vha khou zwi pfa Vho Minisi?a. Ndi nga ?ola kha Mudzulatshidulo wa Nn?u uri Vho Minisi?a vho pfa naa mbudziso yanga, kana ndi ambe nga Luisimani?


House Chair, I am still waiting for your response.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we must now allow the Minister and find out if she heard the question or the comment that you made.


Vho C M PHIRI: Ndo livhuwa.



The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Okay, the Minister said she’s heard the question, and she will now respond. The hon Minister.


Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. Ke a leboga leloko le le tlotlegang.



Hon member, there is proof and evidence that the pieces of advice that the NPC gives to the Cabinet are implemented. We have been able to engage through the process of budget cuts so that we ensure that whatever it is that is going to be done is based on research and it will not be something that we will do away with what we have already done in terms of the
development of our people. Also, when you look at the structures that are put in place, like your National Energy Crisis Committee, NECOM, structures that are put in place that deal with corruption as well. We do give our view and recommendation as the NPC. We have seen most of the things that we have been able to advise on being implemented, like the electricity issues that you see, we have been able to advice, the transition to ensuring that we move from a state that only deals with the output as opposed to the outcome. It was the NPC as well as ourselves that have been able to come up with research that now shows what kind of difference will be put in place if we can assess whatever it is that the government is doing based on facts and not only on numbers.
Thank you.

Ms S J GRAHAM: Minister, the institutionalization of planning has been one of the key strategic objectives of your department. In this regard, several new initiatives have been introduced, including the District Development Model and the National Development Planning Framework Bill, neither of which have seen any measurable progress. The 10-year review of the NDP shows that the progress has been well below expectations. One of the reasons provided is a lack of capacity within the
state to plan and execute such plans, along with state capture and corruption. Cadre deployment is a root cause of the incapable state as key appointments are made based on political affiliation rather than on merit and ability.
Minister, as part of your mandate to institutionalize planning across the government and promote good governance, will you follow the DA’s model and outlaw cadre deployment by criminalizing political interference in government appointments. Thank you.

EVALUATION: Thank you very much for the question, I think I will still reiterate, I am not sure. Maybe members of DA would want us to come and educate them about what cadre deployment is because there is a misunderstanding of what it is. With our understanding - and I have already said it - when you deploy someone, you deploy someone to go and transform an institution to be able to implement your policies, policies that would be able to transform our country so that our country can speak to the realities on the ground. That is what it is all about.
Several frameworks have been developed and this hasn’t started now with this particular department. Frameworks have been put in place since the beginning of democracy to ensure that
whatever it is that we do in terms of planning, it can be assessed factually, but then monitored, and evaluated, if whatever it is that is happening is making a necessary impact that we need to see in our communities. So, if you may ask me, I would say that the progress that we have been able to see since this department was put in place, is remarkable. It is remarkable precisely because when you assess, you would be assessing a plan that has been put in place, but you then now know exactly what is it that you are going to do as it relates to the implementation of the recommendation that you would get. So, our frameworks have worked and I do believe that we have done a good job.

Mr M MANYI: Minister, noting that the institutionalization of the NDP has not assisted the country in any shape or form, that the NDP has missed all its targets; whether you look at inequality, we are worse than in apartheid days; whether you look at unemployment, it is on an all-time high; whether you look at poverty, we are in a mess, or you look at economic growth, it doesn’t matter what you look at. Load shedding, it’s a disaster. The question is: Why is the NPC still following this obsolete and discredited document called the NDP?

EVALUATION: I think we have been able to clarify this matter so many times. Our plan when we made the NDP was based on the reality on the ground, but we have also been able to reflect on the issues that have caused us not to be able to achieve those targets that we had set for ourselves. You cannot deny the fact that there was a pandemic that affected the entire globe. As a result, it regressed some of the progress that has already been made. Now, we are working on ensuring that we recover that which we have lost. So, if you are unable to recognize that, I wouldn’t know how to respond to you properly. But equally so, we have been able to ensure that through the NPC, the pieces of advice that we can give in my view have been able to ensure that at least you can see a South Africa where citizens from the private sector, and academia come together to say that this is what we believe South Africa should look like. And at the moment, we do believe that the recommendations of the NPC have done a good job and they are in line with whatever it is that South Africa needs to be transformed and get to reach the 2030 that we want to live in. Thank you.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, how does the Ministry co-ordinate with other government departments and agencies to ensure coherence and synergy in economic planning and implementation efforts at the different spheres of government? And what mechanisms are in place to monitor and evaluate the impact of these co-ordinated strategies on economic growth and development outcomes? Thank you.

EVALUATION: The government has platforms such as the Presidential Co-ordinating Council, where you’d find all three spheres of government coming together to discuss issues of national importance. This is where we can advise, recommend, and direct the plan of the country in ensuring that all the other sectors of our government or the spheres of government, at least follow that which we know is quite important and should be done. But equally so, we have different plenaries together with different municipalities, and the different provinces. It is for this reason that I have alluded to the fact that the provincial growth and development strategies of every province as well as the IDPs would then speak to the economic issues that you are speaking about. Our platforms where we can engage and be able to give direction and
recommend that which we know will speak to Vision 2030 - the South Africa that we want to live in.

Question 167:

DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hey, this question is difficult. It’s very difficult because it makes assumptions. It's asking for a cost that was incurred. It’s making assumptions that there was a cost incurred. There was no cost incurred. I hiked a lift, in the private jet. I didn’t pay anything. [Laughter.] So, how do I say, what do I say now how much was incurred? Lifts are free. Then, it's asking the reason. Why? The reason why, is simple, whenever there’s an opportunity to save taxpayer’s money, I take that opportunity. That’s why I humbled myself and hiked a lift and I got it.
Thank you.


Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Minister, you’re very comical in your answer. Catching a lift, probably standing at the airport with your finger hoping for a lift. However, Minister, with these gifts and lifts my follow up question to you is: Did you declare this lift to Parliament
and to Sars, and who did you take the lift from? Because it's not just something just to take.

DISABILITIES: I declare to the President; I declare to Parliament when time comes. If you go to even my previous declarations, you’ll find that I’ve got everything. I declared it. When time to declare comes, I will declare. I’ve declared before. There is no secret and I’ll tell you where I got a lift from. If you’re curious, I got a lift from an African businesswoman, who owns a private jet, who was going to the funeral herself in Namibia, and her name is Daphne Mashile Nkosi. Thank you.

Ms N K SHARIF: Point of order, Chair.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Sharif, you tried to intervene while the Minister was responding.

Ms N K SHARIF: No, Chairperson, I didn’t finish my question and it was in fact, the Minister who interrupted me asking my question, and it’s just unacceptable, but thank you very much, House Chairperson.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, you see. You must not get excited. It’s not good to get excited when there is time to discuss things. So, just calm down. Calm down. Are you okay, hon member? Why are you rising?

Mr D W MACPHERSON: I don’t ... I don’t need a lift anywhere, but I just want to say.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, you'll know that in terms of the rules, the member who submitted the question gets two minutes to ask a follow-up. Before the hon Sharif had finished her follow-up, the Minister, in her zest to explain where her lift came from, started answering the question before the hon Sharif could finish her two minutes. I think that the hon Sharif should be allowed to state her question for the full two minutes and then the Minister can answer after she’s had her two minutes.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon McPherson, one day, when you have the opportunity to preside over a sitting; then, you may make those types of rulings from where you are. I
recognised the hon Shariff and the hon Shariff said that’s. It. Then, that’s why we are continuing to a second supplementary question that is asked by hon Masiko.

Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, as we move away from assumptions, thank you for the clear response hon Minister. Hon Minister, Namibia is one of the nations which have shared the similar apartheid conditions with South Africa and fought against apartheid and colonialism. What was the reception of the presence of the South African state in our neighbouring country as we mourn the Excellency of the late President of the Republic of Namibia? Thank you.

DISABILITIES: Yes, hon member, SWAPO and the ANC have worked together fighting for the liberation of Namibia and South Africa, and President Hage Geingob we’ve known him over a long time. He was in the forefront of the Namibian struggle. He was actually one who was sent to Namibia before Namibia came back to go and train Namibians who are going to be part of the civil service. So, when we went there obviously, for the memorial service, they received us, as you would receive a brother and a sister. They gave us the opportunity to speak at
the memorial service on behalf of South Africa, So the reception was that of comrades in arms. Thank you.

Ms N P SONTI: Thank you, Chairperson and Minister, since 2012, after the Marikana massacre by the ANC government. Sikhala Sonke Women’s Organisation in Matibeng in ward 26 has been at the forefront of supporting survivors and we have not received a cent from any organisation or government. We have begged, but to no avail. We assisted the survivors while being poor ourselves. How are we supposed ... to feel as women of Marikana when you go around in private jet paid by taxpayers’ money but refuse to help us.

DISABILITIES: As I say, I humbled myself and asked for a lift, I did not pay for the plane going to Namibia. I even saved because I went in the morning of the memorial. If I’d gone commercial, I would have had to go the previous day. So, I saved money instead. I don’t understand the question when it says, how would they feel if we go around spending money? It’s an assumption that I spent money on that private jet - I did not. With all humility. I humbled myself and I asked for a lift, which I got. Thank you.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister ...



 ... ngiyadabuka ukuzwa nje ukuthi ngisazobuza kodwa ngako ukucabangela. Mina ngingomunye ohlukumezekile nje. Ngizwile ukuthi uhambile, kodwa uhambo lwabantu besifazane abafundayo obolufanele lwenzeke lokuya e-UK alwenzekanga kepha uNqgongqoshe uhambile.


The attendance of ceremony events is important, but not over the needs of the public accountability, transparency, responsiveness to our people. I would like to know why private travel has been prioritised. [Interjections.] Yes, In this instance, at the expense of members’ study tours where we learn internationally best practices for the implementation of our legislation and whether the Minister ...

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Hlengwa! Hon Hlengwa your time is up. ICT just switch off Hlengwa. Its 15 seconds.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Are you talking to me or am I talking to the Minister? [Laughter.]

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon Hlengwa your time is up.

Ms M D HLENGWA: I would like to know why private travel has been prioritised in this instance, at the expense of members’ study tours where we learn internationally best practices for the implementation of our legislation and whether the Minister feels that this kind of desperation is fair to the citizen of this Republic.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms M M R Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon Minister, just take your sit, mam. Hon members, I will call your names because I know your names. Once, twice, it goes, and I will ask you to recuse yourself. ICT, ... hon Hlengwa took four minutes. There is a watch here that guides me and when I say you must switch the member off, it is because she has exceeded even five seconds, 13, 15 seconds is not fear for any other member. I will suggest that we respect that. Hon Minister, please you may proceed in terms of responding.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, one second, there’s a point of order. Hon Majozi.

Ms Z MAJOZI: No, thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I want that when you make this ruling, you must then look at the noise that is in the House. I could hear that you were calling on, mam Hlengwa, but she could not hear because there was a lot of howling that was happening. It was only when I slapped the table that she could then see that you were talking to her. It was not because she was doing that deliberately.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Point taken, thank you very much. Hon Minister, you may proceed.


ngiyadabuka kakhulu angazi noma ukhulumela iPhalamende lonke yini uma uthi kwakufanele singayi emngcwabeni weqabane.
Singayi emngcwabeni kamakhelwane, nalapho sihlala khona emakhaya, ubuntu buthi umakhelwane uma eshonelwe ngiyaya kuyena. Umuntu ebenizabalaza naye uma eshonile kufanele niyomphelezela. Ngiyabona ukuthi awukhulumeli iPhalamende lonke. Angiboni ukuthi abantu abalapha ePhalamende bathi kufanele kubekhona i-study tour kungayiwa emngcwabeni kamakhelwane, kungayiwa emngcwabeni wendodana yalezwekazi, eyazabalaza, izabalazela ukuthi bakhululeke.

Angazi nale-study tour okhuluma ngaso, mhlawumbe ngizobuza ngemuva kwalokhu, bengingasazi nokusazi kodwa noma bengisazi, bengingeke ngisho ukuthi iNingizimu Afrika ayingayi emngcwabeni e-Namibia kushone uMongameli ngoba kufanele kubekhona i-study tour. Ngiyabonga.

Question 138:

AFFAIRS: Thank you very much for the question, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, through the National Disaster Management Centre, NDMC, co-ordinate all stakeholders and subsequently classifies a disaster in terms of what the Act would mandate the scale and the scope of the disaster, and allocate the funds to the appropriate body. That
will be a province and that related municipality, and subsequently monitor progress after the funds have been dispersed to those municipalities in the province to ensure that they are spent according to plan. In these four provinces, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Northwest, and Northern Cape, 16 municipalities were allocated in the financial year 2021-22, to the tune of around R157 million and currently R132 million has been spent. I must also indicate that the
audit for disaster is real real-time audit to ensure that they are ... there were a total of 43 projects which emanates from road stormwater, culverts, and water infrastructure. Twenty- nine municipalities in three municipalities, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, and Western Cape with a total of about 2 131 for the 2022-23 financial year, a total of R3,3 billion was allocated, and R1,5 billion has been spent. Lastly, for 108 municipalities for the year 2023-24, R1,8 billion was allocated and R260 000 has been in the main on water, roads, and bridges for the 108 municipalities which were affected.
Thank you very much.


Mrs Y N YAKO: Minister, since the floods of 2022, there are still areas that have not been attended to. There are minor projects such as small streams that need big pipes to be
changed. Also, there’s the Cele family in KwaZulu-Natal that must flee each time there is rain. When are you attending to all the damages of the 2022 floods?


AFFAIRS: Hon member, thank you very much for the question, as I have indicated, it’s more about ... and I must also indicate to the House that not everything is perfect. There is a shortfall in our systems, and we are reviewing our strategy, which takes a long time to assess ... and the allocation, which usually comes at a delay instance. We’re still even dealing with the 2021-22 floods. I may not be directly aware of the Cele family, and I will outside the House request the details and make a follow-up. But listening to the question, for example, yesterday we evacuated 427 families in Richards Bay up because of the floods Filipo that is currently in the eastern and northern part, and nine families refused to be moved out of their own choice. So, it is difficult. Even if the area has been declared a wetland or if you go to the Westrand in the Sedibeng area where we have notified over 400 families as well that we need relocation and there are difficulties, and it is understandable - emotional attachments to the area, space, and all that. I may not have the Cele
family’ specific response and I will request to the House that I be allowed to attend to it. But we are accelerating the process of ensuring that all the allocated funds are spent in the City of eThekwini in particular on the 2022-23 allocation. They are some of the worst spenders about paying in comparison to what has been allocated. Thank you.


Mr G G MPUMZA: Masibonge ...


Minister, disaster funding is a critical aspect that the government requires to effectively allocate sufficient resources to reconstruct post-disaster damages. Do we have comprehensive instruments to mitigate social and economic risks caused by disasters? And what disaster financing strategy exists to provide a comprehensive financing approach for local government to respond?

IsiXhosa: Ndiyabulela.


AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon member, as I have indicated in the previous response we do have measures, firstly, on how to detect a disaster or rain and inclement weather assisted by the South African Weather Services, SAWS, on either it is a wet weather or dry or even drought. Out of that, as the SDMC, we then developed a strategy formed with provinces for us to be able to respond. These strategies are across from the social sector in terms of welfare programmes, human settlements, in terms of search and rescue, but also we do have the disaster response and recovery. If you talk of recovery, it is where you are trying to spend the money we articulated earlier on. But in terms of response; firstly, after the warning has been given ... we also even have indicators which can detect the amount that will come. And we have the Department of Trade and Industry and Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, that are assisting us in terms of ensuring that there is immediate response and rescue which taps into what municipalities are primarily funded for to ensure that they deal with the mitigation factors of the floods. Additionally, the National Treasury has committed World Bank. They are at phase one to develop and assist us as I have said about the finance strategy about pre-planning
because there are areas, for example, Emnambithi, it’s a known town, post this year’s floods or last year, it has been determined as early as 1981 that the area that they are in post-2026 year, it will be a very difficult town to stay in.
So, you also need to go to Emnambithi, to Newcastle, into the low-lying areas and be able to check that. Before that, there have been relocations in other cities, for example, in Vhembe, in Limpopo and also in the Eastern Cape, the northern part of Port St Johns. So, we do have such measures as government.
Thank you.


Mr J F SMALLE: Hon Chair, Chapter 4 of the National Disaster Management Centre focuses on disaster, the classification, and the effects thereof, as well as the responses to these disasters. Hon Minister, the SADC disaster preparedness and response strategy and funds for the years 2016 to 2030 enhance the co-ordination of effective disaster preparedness and responses, as well as resilience, which outlines the preparedness and response strategy and funds for the SADC region. This responsibility for preparedness and responses requires massive resources, which are currently limited, considering that the government has run out of money for frontline services. Hon Minister, climate change now poses
significant existential threats to countries around the world. To this extent, disaster management needs to be co-ordinated across national boundaries to enhance the effectiveness. South Africa cannot escape the reality. Has the SADC disaster management protocol been signed and does South Africa ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]


AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Smalle for the question, the declaration of the SADC has not yet been signed by South Africa, but the protocol in terms of assisting the very same Filipo started in Mozambique and our team went into Mozambique on the partnership that SADC has. And precisely the reconstruction of what Mozambique and Malawi have been requesting from South Africa needed us to be able to deal with our own mitigating factors first to be able to sign the declaration and be of assistance. But through any other difficulties in the neighbouring countries, which are mainly Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Malawi, South Africa through our army, has also been in assistance. You will also appreciate that before you get into any other treaty, you have spoken about the finances, which you must also look into as a country, but also to be able to deal with our planning and the
allocation of a seat which is currently permanent for the SADC disaster response team housed in Mozambique for us to dispatch permanent assistance and the running of that centre, and it has been an issue that cabinet is seized with to get us to be able to fulfil that part of the submission and then approve in terms of the guidelines of the SADC 2016 to 2030. Thank you very much.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chair, I will take the question. Hon Minister, having seen the devastating effects of the natural disaster and the financial impact it has on municipalities, how has the department and all provincial departments and disaster management collaborated with the private sector to ensure that these projects are completed in a proposed timeframe?


AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member, for the question, we have standing joint operation and national joint operations which we activate as soon as the South African Weather Service, SAWS, has given us an indication of whatever type of a disaster we have beyond collaboration in government entities or spheres government. We also have standing relationships and
memorandums of understanding, MOUs, that have been signed. From the social sector, you will get the Gift of the Givers, for example, allocating and assisting the government with food, clothing, and school uniforms. But also from the infrastructure and developmental centre, we have the Department of Public Works, which heads the infrastructure repair together with the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, Engineering Council of SA which is also in partnership with the government about the assessment that needs to be done and planning for municipalities. I admit, hon member that we still have to enhance as the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, as I have said that we are developing another framework. What delays the repair and the reconstruction of infrastructure, post floods or a disaster is the assessment period which takes long.
Currently, we have joint assessments. Initially, it used to be done at the municipal level, then submitted to the province, and the province submitted to national. Now, the NDMC co- ordinates them at the same time and jointly finalizes the report. We have tried to set a standard of about 14 days. In the past December, that worked very well in terms of the processing of the report and the assignment of the budget.
That is why we were able to release the budget for the first
time faster than all the previous instances of either veld fire or flood-related, and improvement will still be needed in that area. Thank you very much.

Question 157:


Chair, on 16 February 2024, the Department of Public Service and Administration issued a directive on human resource management and development for the public service professionalisation. This directive removes the requirement of experience in entry level positions within the public service.

Consequently, the Department of Public Service and Administration emphasises strict compliance with the new standards, notably eliminating experience prerequisites such as roles. To this end, the department verifies the job listings before their inclusion in the public service vacancy circular, ensuring that they conform to the directive stipulations.

Furthermore, the department has partnered with the Auditor- General of South Africa to monitor the implementation of these norms and standards, ensuring rigorous and enforcement and
adherence. Let me remind this august House that, in 2019 an earlier directive was intended to mitigate the unemployment, high unemployment rate amongst young people in South Africa. It intended to eliminate barriers which previously were unjustified for entry in the public service. It also intended to encourage skills development and empowering new recruited personnel.

As to how far we’ve gone in the three quarters of the 2023-24 financial year, we have been able to attract a total number of 741 young people into entry-level positions without the experience. Thank you, House Chair.

Ms S T MANELI: Minister ...

... masibulele ngempendulo yakho eza kuqinisekisa ukuba ulutsha lwethu luphendulwe ngurhulumente weANC kwizikhalo zalo, kuba esi sesinye sezikhalo zabo abantu abatsha abakhala ngaso esi seemfuno zenqanaba lokungena emisebenzini xa kufuneka beqashiwe.

However, Minister, my question will be: Young people are a source of energy and innovation, and the public service should be conducive to cultivating skills and capabilities. How will the professionalisation framework create a conducive environment for youth to join and develop within the public service with career progression? Thank you, House Chair.


country and as a nation, you would realise that our universities now are producing more and more highly learned people, who then with this provision are able to access the job market. The energy that young people have is what we need in the in the public service. Hence we made or created this regulation and directive to ensure that we pave the way for their contribution in building their own country, through the skills that they already have. Because young people who graduate today are unlike those who graduated before 1994.
They are techno survey; they are ready and energetic.


Therefore, as they get into the job market, they are ready to contribute progressively in transforming our country.
Therefore, this regulation has gone a long way in assisting to attract the young people. Thank you.
Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, speaking of monitoring, the Public Service Commission recently completed an investigation requested by the DA into the issue of senior managers in the public sector who do not meet the qualification requirements for their positions. As we speak, there are nearly 1 800 people in senior management positions, earning millions of rand in critical departments in positions for which they are unqualified.

Minister, would you concede that the employment of thousands of unqualified and frankly incompetent senior managers amounts to a complete failure of monitoring by your department? Thank you Chair.


one doesn’t really know how many times one must answer a question for it to make sense to the person asking the question, because this question has come through a written form, through verbal or oral questions in the House. We have been consistent in responding to say and indicate that, the
1 000 people that you would be talking about would be people that would have been employed at a point they met the requirements.
When the job requirements change when somebody is already in the position, you don’t kick out that person. That is not permissible in our laws. Therefore, that person either gets trained or is moved to a position where they will be gainfully employed and where they would be meeting the standards.

The Public Service Commission, PSC itself, let me hasten to add that, the PSC is a constitutional creation and therefore has access to everybody and will do any study where citizens would want that. So, making it as if the PSC works for the DA in this House is not going to gain you any extra credibility. Thank you.

Ms R N KOMANE: Minister, having communicated the removal as indicated in your in your response, it is not true that government has totally removed the requirement of experience at entry level because the applications still reflect the need for experience. Having stated in your response that you have communicated with other departments, what steps are taken against the departments that do not comply with this? Thank you very much.

Chair, let me indicate that the latest directives are up to date. You are probably referring to the old Z83. The upgraded and online Z83 will not, for entry position. So, where there is entry position, there’s no need for experience.

But also on monitoring, I have just indicated that we have made it compulsory for all departments through the directive. We have partnered with the Auditor-General so that as they audit departments, a department that fails to comply, that will reflect on its report, and we will be able to also notice. But don’t forget that even before a job is advertised, we advertise the jobs, we look at the requirements before it goes out. Thank you.

Mrs H DENNER: Minister, in the first supplementary question’s answer, you referred to candidates who have tertiary qualifications, which are a lucky few. But the education system of this country is one of the ANC’s biggest failures. It has rendered millions of young people unemployable due to no fault of their own. So, now we have unemployable products of a deplorable education system on the one side, and we have
a government on the other side who’s failed to create jobs and has opted to create posts instead of jobs.

My question Minister is: You say you want to professionalise the public service, but what are the merit-based criteria will these appointments be based on if you cannot rely on experience and quality education?

again indicate to the hon member and remind this august House that, the new employment environment in the public service is what would be contained in the amendments that this House had passed. Therefore, this thing of now wanting to make this as if it’s something unknown to this House, becomes a bit of a problem. Of course, I take it as just mere politicking to say post against jobs. Really, what is that? What is the difference? So, for me it just a political statement that the hon member is making, and I wouldn’t be dragged into the matter. Thank you.

Question 150:


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much for the question. As we
may all be aware, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities has the smallest budget in government. It follows that we endeavour to ensure that all our expenditure regardless how big or small, is spent towards our core business.

We must also remember that persons with disabilities are not a responsibility of the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities only. It's a responsibility of the entire government. All the three spheres and society as a whole. So, that's what we must understand. But having said that, in fact, everyone in society must ensure that persons with disabilities are given the opportunities they need.

As a department, we produce an annual report on the implementation of our White Paper on the rights of persons with disabilities, disabilities reviewed by Cabinet towards ensuring that we empower persons with disabilities across all spheres of human endeavour.

Through the 7th annual report on the implementation of the White Paper produced in 2023, we tabled a recommendation that was approved by Cabinet. As you know, every government
department is supposed to at least have 2% of their workforce of their officials be persons with disabilities including state owned enterprises, SOEs, including municipalities and everyone.

But eventually we want to get to 7%. But we must move step by step. We now have got Cabinet’s approval that every department must now employ at least 3% of its officials must be persons with disabilities. And we are hoping that by 2030 we can get to 7%.

We have also through the National Treasury advocated that the Preferential Procurement Bill that is currently under consideration in Parliament also prioritises the set asides not only for women and youth, but also for persons with disabilities.

We monitor the Annual Performance Plans of government departments working with my colleague here in the Department of Planning, Monitoring and evaluation, DPME to make sure that persons with disabilities are catered for. We hope that once that Bill is passed, every department and its procurement will ensure that 7% is set aside for persons with disabilities. We
also concluded a two-part research on elements of the financial and economic cost of disability. [Time expired.]

Ms T S MASONDO: Hon Minister, considering the importance of collaboration, could you elaborate on the extent to which the private sector has shown willingness to partner with the office in these endeavours and what measures are being taken to encourage and facilitate such partnerships? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: We work with the private sector, particularly some of the Setas. For instance, the department has signed a memorandum of understanding with the Education, Training and Development Practice’s Seta so that they can train young persons with disabilities on technical skills for possible placement in jobs.

We're also finalising the economic empowerment strategy. So, persons with disabilities must participate meaningfully in the growth of the gross domestic product, GDP. The principles of legality will apply to socioeconomic rights of persons with disabilities and strategy, with an additional index that will inform participation of persons with disabilities.
Mrs G OPPERMAN: Minister, are the current disability related programmes adequately funded in ensuring economic opportunities for persons with disabilities? If yes, please provide us with feedback on the progress of the Medium Term Strategic Framework targets with regards to economic opportunities for persons with disabilities.


WITH DISABILITIES: As a department, we are not funded for projects. The different departments are the ones that have funds, whether it's small business, whether it's trade and industry. They are the ones that have the funds. That's why we monitor what they do. But as a department, we don't have those funds. You know that the budget is passed here in Parliament. Thank you.

Ms N P SONTI: Minister, we have been pleading with you for a very long time to provide persons with disabilities, with community projects and skills programmes, especially those in rural areas. When we held an EFF manifesto consultation meeting in the North West with persons with disabilities, many of them said there is a deliberate effort by government to exclude them from economic opportunities, because these
programmes come and money gets used for ANC activities and not for the persons with disabilities. Is this true, Minister?
Thank you so much.



WITH DISABILITIES: First of all, I would love the hon member to give me proof of that because I don't have that knowledge. So, if you have proof, please ... [Interjections.] ...


don't do that, please. You may respond hon Minister. Hon Minister, you may proceed.

WITH DISABILITIES: Yes, I was saying that if the hon member has proof that there is a budget that went to the North West for persons with disabilities and it was taken by the ANC, we would really like to see that proof.

Question 143:

AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, North West has signed the
Memorandum of Understanding, MoU, with the University of North West, and had a target of 700 graduates in the fields of engineering, economics, sciences, financial management, town and regional planning, amongst others. A total of 110 learners have been enrolled so far, provided with the assistance like laptops and are trained for the use of monitoring, reporting and evaluation system in these various fields in municipalities to capacitate.

It is important that this is not a North West programme, but rather a partnership of a South African local government system with the North West University. So, all municipalities, ultimately, out of this 600 with time, will be beneficial.

The Department of Co-operative Governance, DCoG, on the other hand has developed the performance assessment tool that the universities is utilising to train these learners and will be accustomed just like Municipal Standard Chart of Accounts, mSCOA, system, which National Treasury has filtered in with regard to performance of how municipalities will be. So, it’s a tool where people are being trained and ultimately we should be able to bridge one another and observe development in municipalities. Thank you.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, thank you for your response and also to know that at least there’s 110 that have been enrolled already.

Considering the ongoing strike in eThekwini Municipality over wage increases, how has the department adjusted its budget to make provision for the remuneration that will be paid to these graduates each month, especially should this be an initiative spread across all nine provinces?

AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, not only in relation to the City of eThekwini, when you embark on a programme you need to be able to set aside in foresight to be able to know at whatever time that you’ll be releasing your graduates that they get to be accommodated. And as I had said that the tool, firstly, renews at least in 105 municipalities where we have started, we’re developing a prototype of municipal structures on how they are supposed to be. And that is why you often hear municipalities say they are being audited today on what skills and capacity and numbers that they have, so that we are able to filter in.
It’s not only the programme that is ran, the University of Cape Town, jointly ourselves and SA Local Government Association, SALGA, are taking about 100 graduates also for a training programme so that they could be placed in municipalities.

So, we’re running that, ensuring that we create the skills to be able to develop municipalities and the funding, remember, of the structure of a municipality gets to be approved jointly, whether it’s a funded post or an unfunded post. I don’t foresee that there will be training and then a mismatch with people who needs to be placed.

But with regard to what we are doing on the strike, the Executive Mayor gave a briefing between 12:00 and 14:00 today on what jointly myself as a Minister, the Premier and the MEC were able to arrive at an agreement with some and they are trickling back to work and work has begun to clean the City of eThekwini.

The challenges we have, of course, is that there are elements of destruction, workers are being killed, workers are being
threatened. But they are currently at work and enroute from here is back to the City of eThekwini till we get it right.

Ms D R DIREKO: Hon Minister, youth and unemployed South Africans are ready to work with our municipalities to provide services to our people such as closing the potholes, water leakages, green intervention and waste.

So, which programmes are available that will increase local government empowerment programmes or local economic development opportunities to improve social services and basic services for the youth and unemployed people who are over the age of 35? Thank you.


AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, we’ve looked, firstly, into the repurposing of our community works programmes to align it to an 80-20% strategy which used to use full work.

Initially, the programme and its policy were aligned towards social and economic development, which were not necessarily focusing in municipalities and were bearing very limited fruits for the municipality and the programme itself.
Currently, we’re retraining our Community Work Programme, CWP, to be able to invest into the infrastructure in terms of development of municipalities and useful repurpose work like patching of potholes, maintenance of infrastructure, training them as process controllers for our waste and with waste water treatment plants, but looking into non-revenue loss of water in terms of closing of leaks and all that.

And secondly, we’re looking into ... as we it articulated in our Local Economic Development, LED, programme with regard to how do we make the economy and simultaneously ignite the areas which are part of the green interventions, the water leaks and take advantage of what has been developed by Monitoring and Evaluation, M&E, to ensure that municipalities also develop in the green economy, but also in the gas economy that has been embedded.

In the artisan approach as well, which we have and the enterprise development strategy which is done on our behalf by the University of Pretoria, the enterprise development wing, where we’re training and posting into municipalities.
So, we believe that in this approach we’ll then be able to create partnerships that are able to train, but also give and allocate space for experiential training for municipalities and foster a strong or collaborative approach between ourselves and local businesses in the staff.

And lastly, Chair, we’re pairing all our one-plans with what is the baseline economically within that local municipality so that if you have a small town like identified by CoGTA, Thaba Tshweu, it has been resilient [Time expired.] ... [Inaudible.]
... on local economic development. Thank you.


Mr J F SMALLE: Chair, any declining government’s fiscal health directly imperils the broader economy, especially those institutions that are, by mandate, exposed to substantial government debt.

South African youth continues to battle against the ANC’s government ability to create an environment to create jobs. Currently, 69% of our youth remains jobless and faces a bleak or no future.
You see, hon Minister, when you introduce transparent and fair government-led opportunity programmes like in the Western Cape, that helps young people to get the necessary leg-up that they need to join the economy, where graduates graduating from provincial government’s year beyond programmes like at Merchants Academy, Crystals Academy, graduates find meaningful work and experience within the private sector. Since the launch of this initiative, nearly 9000 young people have benefitted.

Hon Minister, how do you intend to assist the youth when your own department reduced its community programme by R400 million in the current financial year, which focuses on the short-term job opportunities of the youth? Thank you.

AFFAIRS: Chair, though the portion of the question is what has already been responded to.

But suffice to say that the money that was reallocated from the CWP project is on the basis that the department was still repurposing the policy and the framework of CWP - as I had said - initially it was intended and designed to focus not
only on the useful work that municipalities will benefit on, but portion of that policy and strategy is to ensure that municipalities in insource more rather than outsourcing even labour work that could be done by general workers, maintenance of cemeteries, grass cutting, etc. It’s not an ideal plan to outsource that, but you could be able to insource and that will create more jobs and more employment. Thank you very much.

Mrs Y N YAKO: Chair, I think the Minister has partly spoke on what I’m about to ask.

So, Minister, the reality is that municipalities can create a lot of jobs if they are given political direction to insource workers, in particular cleaners, gardeners, security guards and some functions such as Information and Communication Technology, ICT. At the moment, many of the municipalities pay inflated prices for tenders at these functions.

Why have you not considered insourcing as a way of creating sustainable job opportunities? Thank you.

AFFAIRS: Chair, I’ll be brief, I’ve relatively touched on it. But I will also make an example with regard to what is the impasse in the City of eThekwini currently, it’s about Extended Public Works Programme, EPWP, and waste part-time cleaners or waste collectors, if you will call it, and it falls and fits directly.

And if you look into ... if you have had an opportunity of the response with the Mayor and what Council adopted just yesterday afternoon in the City of eThekwini, takes us into the direction of reducing your community works, EPWP, but creating a longer term employment, permanent, in a way, in the field of security - as I’ve said - labour type of work like ICT maintenance in a small scale and reduce your contractual employment which comes through a supply chain management process that is tendering. Thank you.

Question 168:

EVALUATION: Thank you very much, House Chair. The 10-year review was released in September 2023 to the public for the first time. Now, what we usually do is that we do our
assessment biannually. As a result, it means that if you calculate from September 2023 to now, we are still busy with our assessment and making sure that we’ll be able to report adequately. However, I can say this with confidence that some of the findings that have been mentioned in the NDP review - the 10-year review, we found out that they have already been implemented before they were actually mentioned as findings. Some of them are what the Minister of Public Service was talking about, and it is the issue of professionalisation of the public service.

We have already also been able to see an implementation of the institutionalisation to fight against corruption through National Anti-Corruption Advisory Council, also known as Nacac. Equally so, we have taken some of those deliberations that were found in the review itself or the interventions that are needed to make sure that when we go to the government’s lekgotla this year, they are being addressed there so that departments can be able to know exactly what is it that is required from them. As a result, it means that as of today, I cannot give you a list that would indicate what has been done or what hasn’t been done because our assessments must be
scientific, and they must be based on what we have already been able to plan. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon S J Graham. Hon Graham?

Ms S J GRAHAM: Minister, the 10-year review of the National Development Plan is an objective assessment of the progress government has made in terms of reaching the goals set for 2030. In fact, the National Planning Commission, NPC, said that in its 10-year review, it had been found that unemployment was on the rise, inequality challenges were increasing, economic growth was stagnant and service delivery had worsened. Contributing factors to governance challenges included the lack of trust in the police and in inaccessibility of police stations, the social element having poor sequencing of programme interventions and the economic element experiencing rising criminal syndicates, particularly in the mining and construction sectors.

In addressing the issues identified, the NPC provided a number of key proposals towards achieving the desired outcomes of
government. Many of these proposals aligned with the DA’s rescue plan for South Africa include creating an enabling environment for job creation to create new jobs, ending created deployment by depoliticising the appointment of members of the public sector, boards executive and operational staff of SOEs, a strong focus on the load shedding crisis and dealing with crime, poverty and education failures.

Notably, on the National Health Insurance, NHI, issue, the NPC stated that the government needs to consider governance limitations of the NHI Bill prior to its enactment. Minister, what is the point of having a NPC that provides alternative proposals to government based on evidence if Cabinet is going to completely ignore the proposals such as with the NHI? Thank you.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much. First of all, the NPC is made out of independent experts, so they do not represent any political party. We need to make that very clear. Secondly, the issue of NHI have been raised on how we are going to implement this NHI. In principle, the NPC agrees that the NHI must be implemented. They have agreed on that, and they
started engaging to say that on the matter of the board and on the matter of the powers of the Minister, this is what they think should happen. Let us not place everything in terms of monitoring and in terms of implementation in the Minister himself. Maybe we should also check if Parliament will not be able to play a role. That is what the NPC said. It didn’t say that there’s anything wrong with the National Health Insurance. It said that the National Health Insurance is actually very necessary, and it must be expedited precisely because it speaks to the developmental agenda of our country. So, that is my answer for you as it relates to that particular part of question that you just asked.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The second supplementary question shall be asked by the hon B S Yabo.

Mr B S YABO: Thank you very much, Chair. The National Development Plan remains a strategic document which informs policy and planning. Despite the number of structural factors impacting the attainment of some of the targets, what measures are required to accelerate the attainment of the NDP target in the next Medium-Term Strategic Framework towards 2030. Thank you very much.

EVALUATION: Thank you very much, hon member. Certainly, the issue of co-ordination becomes very important as we implement the NDP precisely because when we don’t do a better co- ordination, all of us can be doing whatever it is that we believe is important. But if it is not well co-ordinated, the impact won’t be seen, and it definitely won’t be effective.
What we believe is that what we have been able to put in place is first of all to institutionalise the issue of long-term planning but also mid-term planning as well.

We have also been able to put in place systems such as making sure that we review some of these budgeting cycles of all spheres of government, so that whatever it is that we have to do has to speak to all spheres of government. Interventions that are put in place must be done across all boards. We have also put in place a system on how we create a legislation that would allow national government, for example, to intervene directly in all spheres of government, including municipalities where service delivery is not implemented adequately. So, that is exactly what we believe needs to be put in place so that we can see the NDP being implemented adequately. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon M Manyi.

Mr M MANYI: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, I’ll ask this very slowly. The proposals by the NPC will have two components. Some of the things would have been implemented, and some of them not implemented. So, a simple question is, “What has been the impact of the proposals that have been implemented and what has been the impact of the proposals that have not been implemented?” And what sort of metric have you used to come to that assessment? Thank you.


EVALUATION: I believe I’ve been able to answer that question by explaining how our cycles work in terms of assessment. We do them biannually. That is what we do. I’ve been able to take you through when this review has been put in place for the public to engage with it and for us to engage with different sector departments, including private sector, in terms of some of those recommendations that you have put in place. So, as I’ve already said - yes indeed, as you rightly said, there are those that were already there. But those that are not done - as I’ve already said, and I’ll continuously say it again - we
are still assessing. The impact will be able to be seen after the assessment precisely because our assessment tools, as you were asking, are based on outcome, not just the output.

So, we are able to evaluate and assess if whatever interventions we have been put in place has made a difference. If it has not been able to make a difference to push us forward to achieve some of these targets of ours that we are supposed to achieve in 2030, we then would know what else can we do. I’ve just given an example. I have given an example that in other areas where we would see that a certain municipality or a certain provincial government is unable to meet their own responsibilities, even a national department can intervene. Those are some of the things that would be done in order for us to use tools that would allow us to reach and expedite further our plan of making sure that Vision 2030 that will be happening in a few years’ time becomes a reality.
Thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The last supplementary question will be asked by the hon R N Cebekhulu.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, House Chairperson. To achieve
an average annual GDP growth of 5,4%, the NDP set the target of 30% investment as a percentage of GDP by 2030. But from 2012 to 2019, gross fixed capital formation as a percentage of GDP averaged 19,6%, largely as a result of the decline in private investment and a slowdown in general government spending and reduced capital spending from SOEs. How does the Ministry intend to foster greater collaboration and trust between government, business, labour and civil society to overcome sectoral interest and promote collective action towards advancing national development objectives? Thank you.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much, House Chair. One of the workstreams that the NPC has is called active citizenry. This is where we talk about the economy and we make sure that we create platforms whereby labour, government, private sector and academia can come and work together to ensure that we build a capable state. So, I can say to you that we are addressing that through those particular platforms. Equally so, I do believe that the environment has changed and shifted towards the investors who are finding South Africa and the South African government to be a trusted ally. I am saying that precisely because if you look at the investment
conference that was held last year, we have surpassed some of the targets that we have put for ourselves. That tells you that investors are getting more comfortable, and they have confidence in this particular government.

So, we will continue to make sure that whatever it is that we have been doing through our diplomatic missions in making sure that we attract investors and investors here as well, we have been able to see the President having a number of interactions with different businesspeople. Some of the solutions that we have been able to implement came from those particular platforms. So, as a result, I do believe that systems are in place. All that we have to do is to co-ordinate better stuff that has already been said, so that we can now reach those targets that we have put for ourselves for 2030. Thank you.

Question 151:

EVALUATION: House Chair, thank you very much for this particular question because it assists a lot. I have already indicated that in relation to the private sector, we have a work stream that has already been established. The government has also created a platform where we meet with the private
sector as a focal point to discuss issues of common interest, and we have been able to address some of these in the areas of food and beverages.

We have also been able to meet with people from the fishing industry and we can also meet with people from the infrastructure industry. You will now ask me how we can now evaluate and assess whether the private sector actually has a role to play because the National Development Plan, NDP, is not only for the government but also for the private sector. Using the District Development Model, DDM, you can now assess the impact of private sector participation in DDMs. For example, in Waterberg District Municipality, one of our best DDMs, we found that the mining industry plays an important role in the plans that have been put in place for mass infrastructure development, but also for local economic development, LED, in that particular area. So, in this way we were actually able to bring something to the table. It is about assessing whether the private sector is actually doing what it is supposed to do, but of course there are other things that we use. For example, if you are in the mining industry, there are charters there as well that can be
assessed. So, there are systems in place, and we really believe that they work well.

Adv M R M MOTHAPO: Hon Chairperson, state central planning is critical to give expression to policy and most importantly, to align planning. And resource allocation of public and private investment in the economy. My question is, what possibilities exist to begin drawing in more effective strategic planning engagements with the private sector to ensure investments in the private sector reinforce the developmental objectives of government? Let me congratulate hon Gwarube for having acquired a new member seated in front of hon Malatsi. Thank you.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much for that particular question, because it is important. This question is the same as the previous one that we have been able to answer. As I have already said, through working together with the Department of Trade and Industry and Competition, we have been able to monitor the performance of investment conferences and that then has been able to assist us to know that when investors come what is it that we need to put in place so that they can
then now be able to attract more? They do not just invest now. So, those are some of the things that we are doing to be able to make sure that we attract investors.

Proudly South African and many other platforms that have been created by government also play a key role, more especially in in our foreign nations, because that’s where economic diplomacy that speaks to attraction of investment, especially foreign investment, actually take place. So, we have been able to do that. Hon member, I am not sure if I am answering your question correctly and adequately.

But finally, here at home, and I think I have already been able to talk about this, the public-private growth initiative, where we are a focal point in terms of working with the government and the private sector, was launched by the President and we represent him there and we always make sure that we meet with the sectors so that we can catch up on some of these backlogs that have been created by the red tape in government. We have also managed to create a unit to deal with the red tape in government. But not only that. That would help investors to know that it will not take six years to apply for a licence. It can take about six months. These are some of the
things that we have been able to put in place to ensure that we attract investment and will continue to do so in the future. Our national development plan will be achieved in 2030.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the only time I will not ask you about the files only if you are going to be my personal assistant, PA, at some point. I think you will agree with me, Minister, - and I am so glad you raised the issue of red tape. There really are two parts that you cannot separate. And yes, it is one thing to monitor the role of the private sector in implementation. But another is Mr Sipho Nkosi, Head of the Red Tape Reduction Task Team.
Obviously and certainly, there must be some privileges for businesses when it comes to the implementation of red tape reduction for the private sector. Can you tell us what privileges have been introduced in red tape reduction for the private sector?

EVALUATION: I do not know If I understand you very well, but I will try to respond.

Ndimzame? Ewe, ndiza kuzama.


The benefits that the private sector usually has - let me give you an example, and I think I can say this. Coca-Cola came to us and said that some of the taxes that are levied on sugar, I think it’s the sugar tax, they think should be relaxed a little bit because they do not think they are necessarily designed to help them make more profits so that they are able to create new products. But they are still trying to adapt to make sure that they comply with the health specifications for this particular issue of food and beverage. So, they would come to us to tell us that we have tried to talk to the Department of Health. Even if they do not agree, they can at least sit down with us so we can talk about it. We would then now be able to make sure that we do contact Department of Health and we create that enabling environment so that private sector can be able to engage with government, not that there will be an agreement, but at least there will be a platform where they would be able to engage. So those are some of the benefits that you would get from such initiatives. Thank you.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Hon members, the third supplementary question will be asked by hon M Manyi. I think hon mama uKhawula will ask the follow up question on your behalf. We shall pass.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No. Hon member, it does not work that way. I have called him, and I am going to the fourth supplementary question now. The last supplementary question will be asked by hon Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, ... [Inaudible.] ...


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Majozi, can you take the question on behalf of hon Cebekhulu? Thank you.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair. Excuse me, my voice is a little squeaky. I am sure you will understand, especially after an extensive manifesto that we have had. Going back to the question ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon Majozi!

Nk Z MAJOZI: Asitatazeli.


Hon Minister, I cannot stress enough the importance of promoting the development of small holders and small business, as well as facilitating their access to domestic and global value chain and market. How does this department plan to leverage public private partnership and strategic collaboration to create an enabling environment for small holder participation in the value chain and enhance their integration into a broader economic system?

EVALUATION: Thank you, hon Chairperson, and thank you for this question. The NDP says that if we really want to increase employment in our country, we need to invest more in SMMEs if we want to achieve that. What we normally do - and we also work with the Department of Small Business Development.
Whenever there are matters that have to do with, let us say, government processes or government projects where SMMEs have a role to play, we write to them. If they are not paid on time, because some of the things that have caused some of these
SMMEs to die prematurely are precisely because they were not paid on time. We have been able to improve on that by working and co-ordinating with the Department of Small Business Development to make sure that our government at least makes sure that whatever they do is done to support the SMMEs to grow.

But if you look at the measures we have taken in relation to the promotion of SMMEs, it is primarily the presidential platform that has deliberately ensured that we support SMMEs, even at the time when we were still suffering from the pandemic, because we understood that SMMEs are not necessarily always viable, but that they must now be able to sell their product as well as possible to make the necessary profit. So, we were able to put in place funds to help them meet their responsibilities so that they are now able to create the jobs that we need in relation to the NDP. Thank you.

Question 156:

Chair, the Department of Public Service and Administration has undertaken a comprehensive review of all the Public Service Act regulations, determinations and directives to ensure that
the norms and standards are appropriate and are drafted in a manner that assists departments in properly implementing and complying with legislation. The Department of Public Service and Administration is reviewing the disciplinary codes to ensure that the necessary changes are affected to manage noncompliance and ill-discipline and to circumvent the protracted disciplinary processes and precautionary suspensions. Parallel to these legislative measures and to strengthen the departments capability to comply, the department undertakes continuous engagements and workshops with all departments to build institutional capacity and provide support to achieving compliance of prescripts.

Let me also remind this House and the honourable members that the norms and standards are also prescribed as a framework within which the public service functions. Section 16(a) of the Public Service Act provides for measures where there is noncompliance with the Public Service Act, its regulations and determinations, as well as directives through disciplinary processes and reporting mechanisms to Parliament. In order to monitor and ensure effective consequence management, the following systems were adopted: first one, being the quarterly monitoring reports to the Minister of Public Service and
Administration on disciplined management, based on information submitted by departments. Where departments are identified to be non-compliant, noncompliance letters are issued.

To ensure implementation of the prohibition to conduct business with the state, the department draws a list from the Central Supplier database to monitor employees who are alleged to have conducted business with the state. The list is shared with the affected departments to investigate and where necessary, departments are required to take corrective action against such employees, that would be affected. To ensure implementation of the directive on other remunerative work outside the employee’s employer. Ethics officers, as part of the lifestyle review process, monitor if they those employees with permission to perform other narrative work are applauded, uploaded their certificates onto the edict disclosure system when disclosing their financial interests. Noncompliance is followed up with the respective and affected departments.
Thank you, chair.

Nks M T KIBI: Sihlalo, mandibulele kuMphathiswa ngempendulo ecacileyo. Ndifuna ukwazi kwakhona kuMphathiswa ukuba galelo linin a eliya kwenziwa ukuzama ukuphumeza ...


... the Public Service Commission Bill...



... ekomelezeni iinkonzo zoluntu, ekwandiseni iinjongo yawo kwizigaba zozithathu zikarhulumente? Enkosi, Sihlalo.



Chair, the Public Service Commission Bill will enable the Public Service Commission to cease to be a public or to be treated as a public service department. Let us be reminded that this is a Chapter 10 of the Constitution institution which is expected to be independent as such to be able to monitor the compliance of all the departments in the public service with the constitutional prescripts if they meet the constitutional requirement. Now, when it is treated and when it is handled in the current form as a department, there is potential for conflict of interest and therefore the Bill in
front of Parliament now seeks to address and normalize the environment within which the Public Service Commission functions such that its independence is guaranteed. Thank you.

Ms T HALSE: Minister, in light of the Deputy President Paul Mashatile’s response to a DA question at the NCOP yesterday, stating that it was only through the ANC’s Cadre Deployment Policy...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Halse, one minute just probably sit down so that your voice can be audible on the microphone.

Ms T HALSE: Okay, I will start again. In light of Deputy President Paul Mashatile’s response to a DA’s question at the NCOP yesterday, stating that it was only through the ANC’s Cadre Deployment Policy that qualified and skilled persons are placed in leadership positions in government institutions, how many permanent government department positions are vacant due to suspended officials or staff members and what is the cost to taxpayers of South Africa for continued payment of salaries to both suspended and acting staff, while disciplinary actions
due to mismanagement and corruption by the deployed takes years to conclude? I thank you.

Chair, in as much as the question is multi-pronged and is not necessarily a follow-up question. If you read what the original question says but on the on the detail that the question expects, I would not have the numbers with me now, but we can give to the hon members the numbers that she expects. But with respect to Cadre Deployment Policy, I do not know what this obsession is of the DA with Cadre Deployment Policy. We are cadres, we are deployed here and we are performing. That is why South Africans vote us every time. It is because we are here to do our work and do it diligently, effectively and efficiently. Thank you.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members, you are making it difficult to... [Change of the tape.] Hon Majozi, why you are saying point of order when you confess very loudly? It is because the Minister would not hear and capture the question correctly.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chair, the Public Service Commission has noted the significant number of grievances referred by employees due to departments’ failure to resolve grievances internally within the prescribed timeframes. Are there mechanisms in place for the department to improve internal grievance resolutions within government departments and ensure timely and effective handling of employee grievances?

House Chair, I can guarantee, seated here that each department does have a grievance procedure because it is within the regulations that each department does conduct grievance settlement procedures in a manner prescribed and, in a manner, determined in law. Yes, where there are people, there will always be grievances and hence the grievance procedure, and it is followed. I thank you.

Mrs H DENNER: Hon Minister, let me just eliminate your confusion of earlier. Government is supposed to stimulate job creation by promoting a thriving and stable economy instead of stimulating post creation. So, the ANC-led government has failed in stimulating job creation and instead have created posts within the public service. That is why we have a bloated
public service and an even more bloated public service wage Bill, and that is the difference between creating jobs and creating posts. That is also the difference between a good government and an ANC-led government. But to get to my question, hon Minister, with reference to consequence management, will your department do away with your practice of your revolving door practice of merely redeploying naughty cadres into other departments in the public service, or should we take your recently leaked party lists and the cadres on your party lists to be resounding no to that question? Thank you.


Chair, you probably would have noted House Chair, that more than a question, this is a statement casting aspersions on ANC leadership in government. I am not sure if I am ready to go down the muddy route again, but I do want to say that it is clear that some of us in this House when they see capable black leaders, they fear. They start fearing and they end up just throwing insinuating statements that are not questions. I have answered questions in this House. I am not going to debate that statement. I am not ready for it now because I do not know what I will say in terms of your House rules.

Mr M J MASWANGANYI: Chair, let me present the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, Scof, on the fiscal framework and revenue proposals.

Mutshamaxitulu, vaholobye na vachiviseki hinkwenu, ndza mi losa


The Minister of Finance, hon Godongwana, tabled the 2024 national Budget before Parliament on 21 February 2024 in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act. The National Treasury and the SA Revenue Service responded to the issues raised in the public hearing engagements between the committees and stakeholders on 01 March 2024.

With regard to the fiscal framework overview over the past 30 years, over the three decades spanning from 1994 to 2024, the
South African economy has undergone significant transformation. The ANC took from an apartheid government that ran the country on the basis of excluding the black majority from the mainstream of the economy. Large white-owned conglomerates controlled large parts of commerce and industry. The apartheid state had run up substantial domestic debt resulting in an unsustainable Budget deficit. The ANC government had inherited a fractured economy. From an economic in crisis, the ANC government has made enormous strides in addressing the legacies of apartheid. From 1994, the ANC focused on developmental expenditure, growth and expanding the tax base. In 1994, the real GDP was approximately
R276,4 billion. In 2024, GDP stands at R7,4 trillion. Government estimated revenue has grown from around R89 billion in 1994, to R1,9 trillion in 2024. The government expenditure has grown from around R115 billion in 1994 to R2,2 trillion in 2024. This expenditure is translated into increasing electricity connectivity to 89,6% in 2022. Access to clean pipe water increased to 88,5% though there are a lot of problems in the DA-run Tshwane Municipality, hon Sarupen.

Millions of learners are attending no-fee schools accompanied by school nutrition. Lots of research documents have been
conducted on how nutrition impact on the child’s learning ability.

The committee received inputs from the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, and the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC. The two bodies assist the committee in analysing the Budget and for Scof to play an effective role on the National Treasury and the financial sector in general.

We got the briefing from the Minister on the Budget. During the Minister’s briefing to the committee on finance, the National Treasury provided an overview of the 2024 Budget. The overview highlighted that the economy needs investment to grow and create jobs while outlining plans to ensure development through sustainable public finances.

The following week on 28 February, we conducted public hearings. We received written and oral submissions from stakeholders. We want to indicate that we take the inputs from the stakeholders serious because public participation is the cornerstone of participatory democracy.
The committee acknowledges that the 2024 Budget was tabled in a challenging environment of stagnant economic growth, persistent domestic structural constraints and tax revenue of below 2023 Budget expectations. In this difficult context, the 2024 Budget manages to strike a reasonable balance between fiscal consolidation and development, and continues with some of the key fiscal objectives outlined in the 2020 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS.

The committee notes with concern that the real GDP growth remain stagnant having averaged 0,8% since 2012, and is expected to average 1,2% over the medium-term. The expected growth rate will still not be sufficient to create the much- needed jobs in the economy while growing the economy is a governmentwide responsibility, the committee urges for a speedy implementation of economic reforms and the creation of a conducive environment for the economy to grow, create jobs and encourage investment.

The committee recommends that the National Treasury considers the stakeholders’ recommendations about measures to address constraints to growth. The committee notes that the 2024 Budget GDP growth focus are too optimistic given the current
economic challenges. The committee reiterates its recommendations that the National Treasury should regularly engage with the committee to report progress made in implementing its risk mitigation strategy. The committee notes with considerable concern that moderate economic growth rate projected over the next three years will not be sufficient to absorb new entrants in the labour market. The committee recommends that the National Treasury should regularly provide progress made on the targeted public employment programmes including the Employment Tax Incentive, ETI, and assess whether these programmes are effective in achieving their intended objectives. The National Treasury and the SA Revenue Service, Sars, should consider the concerns raised and recommendations made by the stakeholders on these programmes. The committee notes that revenue collection has deteriorated substantially over the past year due to weak economic conditions leading to a revenue shortfall of R56,1 billion in 2023-24. The committee recommends that Sars should intensify revenue enhancement initiatives, address tax fraud and evasion and collect maximum revenue for the government to enable it to deliver on its constitutional obligations.
The committee notes government’s commitment to maintain the social wage which will account for 60% of the total noninterest spending over the medium-term.

The committee welcomes and amount of R7,4 billion set aside in 2024-25 for the Presidential Employment Initiative, PEI, and believes that these funds will assist in reducing high levels of joblessness, particularly among the youth.

With regard to the debt, recognising a constraints fiscal space, the committee recommends that the National Treasury report quarterly on the effectiveness of its debt management strategies that will ensure that the level of debt stabilises over the medium-term as expected and avoid a sovereign debt crisis.

The committee accepts the R150 billion drawn from the SA Reserve Bank’s, Sarb’s, gold and foreign exchange contingency reserve account, Gfecra, over the medium-term to reduce government borrowing and bring the country in line with international best practices. Do you understand this, Sarupen? It is recommended that the National Treasury and the SA Reserve Bank, Sarb ... [Interjections.]
Mr E MTHETHWA: Chair, I just wanted to find out if the chairperson could allow me to ask him a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maswanganyi, are you ready to take a question?

Mr M J MASWANGANYI: Nyambosi, we are serious here. This is not a ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Don’t respond to Nyambosi. Please, answer me.

Mr M J MASWANGANYI: [laughter.] Nyambosi, we are not in the Market Theatre in Joburg. This is Parliament. We are serious, and we are dealing with the finances of the country.

The committee however remains concerned that at the projected R1,1 trillion over the medium-term, contingent liabilities remain high and if these liabilities materialise the debt to DGP ratio will not stabilise as expected. The committee recommends that considering the immediate risks posed to fiscal framework, the National Treasury to bailout state-owned enterprises, SOEs, should be accompanied by stringent
conditions that must be upheld regularly, monitored and reported. The National Treasury must ensure that the conditions set are met before additional guarantees are provided.

On revenue, the committee welcomes the proposal to implement the global minimum corporate tax in line with the global developments. The committee urges Sars for a clear and achievable framework to deal with illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting to grow the revenue base and report progress made to the committee.

The committee appreciates significant improvement in the quality of submissions and presentations made and robust discussions held on the 2024 Budget public participation and appreciate the comprehensive response by Madiba.

The committee welcomes the National Treasury’s focus on social grants, as I have said before. Social grants provide a lifeline to millions. Social grants provide a crucial safety net to the most vulnerable. Many households would be destitute without social assistance safety net which has shown to have contributed to a reduction in poverty.
The committee welcomes the extension of the social relief of distress, SRD, grant until March 2025. While the committee recognises the severe budgetary constraints, it reiterates its previous position that the National Treasury and government should consider the basic income grant, Big, after the necessary consultations with the relevant stakeholders.

The committee is concerned about the delays in removing South Africa from the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, grey list and this poses a risk to the fiscal framework. The committee notes that the National Treasury and the relevant stakeholders made progress in this regard. While the risks remain, the recommendations that still need to be implemented do not include the financial sector and more work need to be done by the security cluster in this regard. The committee recommends that the National Treasury and the relevant institutions should intensify efforts to remove South Africa from the grey list and quarterly report progress made to the committee.

The committee notes the National Treasury’s response that the National Health Insurance allocation of R1,4 billion over the medium-term was only for preliminary upgrading of the infrastructure in preparations of the roll-out of the
insurance scheme. We, as the committee welcome this initiative and we are fully behind the National Health Insurance.

Having considered the 2024 fiscal framework and revenue proposals, we move for the adoption of the report.

Ndza khensa.

Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, Chairperson. Our economy grew at 0,2% in 2023. Although the ANC-led government celebrated this in an attempt to somehow take credit for this tiny bit of growth, that happened despite its incoherent economic policy and gross mismanagement of the public finances. The Budget relies on growth of 0.6%. If the ANC remains in government after May, we will see further cuts to the Budget for service delivery in October.

National Treasury has also stated that another tax increase will be needed to fund the National Health Insurance, NHI. Tax was increased through stealth this year, with tax brackets not adjusted for inflation. Government also announced its raid on the SA Reserve Bank that will start shortly with the first
R150 billion. This will not be enough to plug the massive drain of R1 billion per day that South Africans are paying for interest on debt, that government has accumulated on consumption expenditure and not on infrastructure, as could be expected from a functional government.

Government expenditure is not sustainable, no matter how much it raids from the SA Reserve Bank, or it expropriates from the pension savings of hard-working South Africans, through prescribed assets. Government has no political will to tackle the big-ticket expenditure items that are draining the fiscus faster than revenue is collected. The public sector wage bill is bloated by cadres deployed in a process. The ANC is determined to hide from the public, despite the court ordering them to reveal the minutes of these illegal appointments.

The state-owned enterprises, hopelessly bankrupt and unable to deliver electricity or operate the ports and railways, vital to our economic growth, gets bailed out again and again without any improvement. Misguided preferential procurement adds a massive 20% to government expenditure costs, making the already empowered rich people even richer, leaving legitimate beneficiaries behind in poverty.
South African households are battling a never-ending government-induced cost-of-living crisis: Five million children are starving, according to the Nelson Mandela Children’s Fund; and 81% of households are skipping at least one meal a day. This is happening in a rich country, suffering under a government that extracts whatever it can for the political elite, who belong in jail and not in public office, as we see on the ANC lists that was initially leaked from the IEC.

We have a growth problem and a spending problem, and if these are not addressed, the debt problem will get even worse. To generate growth, government needs to focus on doing the job it was elected to do, and then get out of the way. It also needs to attract foreign direct investment, and for that, it must ensure that South Africa is an attractive investment destination. It cannot do that, when it sends signals from Moscow and acts on behalf of those determined to replace freedom, democracy, the rule of law and the market economy with an autocracy incompatible with our Constitution.

In its ANC bailout Budget, government chose itself before the people, instead of cutting tax on fuel that could lower
inflation and reduce the cost of transport and food; and instead of expanding the zero-VAT rated food basket to include burning chicken, beef, beans, wheat flour, margarine, peanut butter, tea, coffee, baby food and soup powder.

It gave the people nothing but tax increases and the real prospect of even more cuts to service deliver by retaining the child grant at far below the poverty line. It chooses to buy generators for its Cabinet Ministers instead of nutrition for its children - a sign of a government so drunk on its champagne and caviar lifestyle, that it cannot even mention the cost-of-living crisis. Government does not respond because it does not care.

After the ANC-led government loses its majority in May, the climate is going to change. We need to get off the Financial Action Task Force grey list, FATF grey list, as soon as possible, and that needs the political will to prosecute those responsible for illicit cash flows that are driving investment out of our economy.

A short while ago, the ANC could not pay its staff and suppliers and was getting sued by Ezulweni Investments for
over R100 million, then that suddenly all went away. It is also spending lavishly on stadium events and other visible election spending funded via Qatar. It submitted disclaimed financials to the IEC, who never battered an island, and its murky donations from Russia and Ira are hidden behind the veil of Chancellor House.

This is not the behaviour of a government committed to financial transparency and getting our country off the list of jurisdictions that are threats to the global financial system. Despite an incompetent and corrupt government trying to occupy a central position in our economy, which remains fixated on building the developmental state that it is proven to be utterly incapable of delivering, there is the hope that lies beyond 29 May.

We have a young and entrepreneurial population that is waiting to be freed from government policies that have taken away the massive opportunities that our rich country can offer. This is the opportunity cost of a broken and failing government.

In our alternative Budget, the DA has set out how we will achieve economic growth, resolve energy crisis, bring debt and
spending under control and ensure support for the most vulnerable South Africans.

Under these conditions, the people of South Africa can become everything that they are capable of becoming. All they need to do, is to make the right choice, when they pick the government in May, that can rescue South Africa. We do not support this fiscal framework. Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. We now invite the hon Shivambu. Did you get the permission? [Interjections.] No, the rule says that - that the person must get permission. Proceed.

Mr M MANYI: Yeah, I think he probably has connectivity problems, but I am here as backup. Chairperson, there are several admissions and concessions made by National Treasury about the state of South Africa’s public finances. Debt service costs are the largest expenditure item Budget, sitting at some R356 billion. Economic growth since 2012 has averaged 0,8%. Last year alone, it was not 0,6%. This is far below the levels needed to address the high levels of unemployment and poverty.
What this means is that the ruling party has dismally failed to grow the economy, develop productive forces and therefore is shrinking the base upon which taxes must be collected. Over the same period, government borrowing has ballooned to support the rapidly rising expenditure. As a result, debt service costs are choking the economy and public finances. There is no believable plan on how South Africa’s debt will be managed in the foreseeable future.

Hon members, the weak performance of our economy has resulted in a sharp deterioration in tax revenue collection for year 2023-24, sitting at R1,73 billion. The tax revenue for the same period is R56 billion lower than estimated in the 2023 Budget. The state of South Africa’s public finances dismal failure to create jobs, to build and maintain critical infrastructure and to develop reliable electricity to our people has led to multiple and multidimensional poverty and underdevelopment crises confronting our country.

More than 11 million people are unemployed. These are people who are willing, capable and ready to work but cannot find jobs. What is painful is that the majority of these are young people. Half of the population lives in poverty, with more
than 28 million people dependent on one form of grant or another.

Water, roads and electricity infrastructure are dilapidated. Most of the water from the purification plant is lost through leaks even before it gets to end users., and our roads are full of potholes. Denel’s collapsed. Transnet was deliberately collapsed to allow for privatisation through back door. SA Airways was sold for R51 by a corrupt Minister. We see now, he has to reverse the deal. Mango was given to the [Inaudible.] CEO to collapse it, to give large market share to privately- owned [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] We know that there are still more ...

Mr B A RADEBE: Point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Manyi, please take your seat. Hon Radebe, why are you rising?

Mr B A RADEBE: I am rising on Rule 85. The member there has just alleged that the Minister of Public Enterprises is corrupt. So, he must bring a substantive motion for that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Any member who wishes to bring any improper or unethical conduct on part of the other member, to the attention of the House, may only do so by way of a separate substantive motion. That is the Rule that was quoted as Rule 85. Unfortunately, I didn’t hear what you just said. Can you help me? Did you hear?

Mr M MANYI: We know there are still some who are hellbent ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I am still consulting because I did not hear that part. [Interjections.] Hon Manyi, I am told that you referred to a Minister who tried to sell SA Airways and that is a contravention of the Rule that I just read. Please withdraw!

Mr M MANYI: But I didn’t mention the name.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, you said a Minister.

Mr M MANYI: Which minister?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please. No, no, no, no! You withdraw! [Interjections.] Hon Manyi, are you going to withdraw?

Mr M MANYI: Gradually so, because I have more things to say

... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Manyi, I don’t want conditions. You must withdraw or you don’t.

Mr M MANYI: Yes, ma’am!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What?

Mr M MANYI: We know there are still some ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Manyi. Yes, what? Wait, that is your problem? You are confusing. I don’t even hear other things. Hon Manyi, are you withdrawing?

Mr M MANYI: Yes, House Chair! We know ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Say it! Thank you.
Mr M MANYI: We know there are still some who are hellbent on continuing with the deliberate collapse of Eskom. Many of the SOEs are being deliberately collapsed to weaken the state capacity to deliver.

South Africa is now a lawless country. The levels of murder rates in South Africa are higher than in some of the countries that are at war. More than 27 000 people were murdered during the 2022-23 reporting period. There was general increase in murder rates, sexual offences, attempted murder, assault, common assault, robbery and contact crime.

The ruling party has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that they carry neither the individual nor collective capacity to resolve South Africa’s developmental challenges and crises. We, therefore, stand here to give key highlights of what we as the EFF-led government will do when we take over government and when we politically lead this National Treasury from June 2024 onwards.

Number one: We will transform the fiscal policy, in particular Budget allocation, to be able to be the primary driver for localised industrialisation of all goods and products that are
consumed and utilised by the state. These will include, driving a localised industrial production of motor vehicles used by municipalities, waste collection trucks, buses and minibuses used for scholar transport, police vans and all vehicles used by government officials and public representatives at the provincial and national level.

Number two: the EFF-led government ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members. May I please hear the member on the podium? Please! Proceed.

Mr M MANYI: And they are chowing time!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, your time is always banked.

Mr M MANYI: The EFF-led government in this Treasury will amend all procurement legislation to be the primary driver of optimal land use. The state is the largest single buyer of food for school feeding schemes, hospitals, prisons. We will drive this policy and all these foods that are locally produced at small-scale farmers.
Number three: The EFF will use its already existing relationship with the People’s Republic of China, PRC, to enter into fair and balanced build, operate and transfer agreements for massive infrastructure rollout, which will include the rail network that will interconnect South Africa’s major economic centres, while purposely linking with areas where new cities must be built and interconnecting into the entire continent for ease of trade. The PRC has already played an important role in building similar infrastructure in Ethiopia, Kenya, Nigeria, and Angola.

Listen, the EFF will make sure that all the existing coal- powered fleets under Eskom have a minimum of 80% energy availability factor and therefore ending load shedding.

Number five: The EFF will use this already existing and cordial relationship with the Russian Federation to build and operate 6 000 megawatts nuclear power station, which will provide baseload and dependable electricity for all our people. The EFF will consolidate a solid strategic partnership with Mozambique to optimally use gas for electricity purposes. The EFF is ready to govern. The time for the ANC is over.
Viva, EFF – viva!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Order, order, order! Hon Sonti, I have been listening to everybody here trying to calm you down, I don’t know what happened to you. Please don’t do that.


Inkosi: E M BUTHELEZI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo, enkulumweni yeSabelomali yalo nyaka uNgqongqoshe wasikhumbuza ngenhloso enhle kaHulumeni yokuhlinzeka ngakhokonke abantu bakithi abakulungele esikhathini sentando yeningi. Wathi, uma ngimucaphuna nje:

Umgomo kaHulumeni kule minyaka engamashumi amathathu eyedlule kwakuwukubuyisa kokubili, ubulungiswa kwezenhlakahle nezomnotho esizweni sakithi kanye nokubhekana ngqo nokungalingani okwakuwuphawu lokucwaswa okuhleliwe kanye nokuphucwa komhlaba.

Inkulumo le kaNgqongqoshe yabuya yanikeza ithuba lokuthi abheke emuva kule minyaka eyedlule bese ebatshele ngobuqotho abantu bakithi ukuthi yini eyinqubelaphambili uHulumeni ayenzile. Nokho, Sihlalo, uNgqongqoshe wakhetha ukwengula
phezulu waziba ngokuphelele amaqiniso aphambi kwethu nesiwaziyo sonke.

Kahlehle bobabili benoMongameli bakhetha isibonelo sempumelelo, leso sika-Tintswalo oyedwa ezigidini zabantu bakithi ababhukuda ekuhluphekeni. Nakuba ikhona inqubekelaphambili eyenziwe uHulumeni kule minyaka engamashumi amathathu, lokho siyakuvuma, kuhle futhi. Kodwa ngeke silibale ngokuziba ukuthi namhlanje ngoba sikhuluma nje, abantu bakithi abaningi abasizakele kuloHulumeni. Izwe lethu lilahle umzila okuyiwo ngakhoke silengela engozini. Uhulumeni ka-ANC wehlulekile.

Ubufakazi ngalokhu engikushoyo, Sihlalo, wudaba nje lwansuku zonke locima konga kagesi osekulahlekisele abantu abaningi ngemisebenzi nangamathuba. Ukuwa kwezinkampani zikaHulumeni osekuxebule izigidigidi zemali yomphakathi ngendlela enengcithakalo nengenazo izithelo. Ukungasayi phambili nokungabikho kwamathuba emisebenzi ikakhulukazi entsheni yakithi, ubugebengu nengcithakalo lokhu okunyundela izwe lakithi emazweni omhlaba.
Konke lokhu, Sihlalo, kwenzeka ngaphansi kweqembu elibusayo likaKhongolose. Sihlalo, ubungafunga ukuthi lokhu akwanele, namhlanje njengoba sinenkulumo-mpikiswano lesi sabelomali, ngikhuluma nje kunesizwana esisha sabantu bakithi esingakaze sabakhona, leso esibizwa ngamaphara. Lezi yizingane zethu ezihlakaniphile namalungu emindeni yethu ahlulekiswe uHulumeni ayesekhetha ukuzinikela encithakalweni. Lokhu kukhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi olunjani uhlobo lwezwe esizoba yilo nabantu bakusasa umanxa uHulumeni oholwa i-ANC uqhubeka uba semandleni. Kodwa noma kunjalo, Sihlalo ohloniphekile, lisasekhona ithemba. Iqembu le-IFP yilo kuphela elinezixazululo sale nkinga esibhekene nayo futhi yilo lodwa elithembisa kanzulu ngakhoke sicela abantu bakithi basethembe ngalo mzuzu. Simi ngomumo ukuba basijube. Sesikulungele ukubasebenzela. Ngakhoke kukodwa okumele sikwenze njengesizwe, ukuba sivale umnyango osemuva kwethu wenkohlakalo nengchithakalo, siwuvale sakuwugakraza bese sivula umnyango ophambi kwethu. Sivale futhi umnyango lo wenkohlakalo kanye futhi siqede abaholi mbumbulu abahamba phambi kwethu bese sivula umnyango ophambi kwethu okungumnyango omuhle onegenela empumelelweni yethu nakwisasa esilifunayo. Umnyango omuhle ozosikhandela amathuba lapho khona zonke izinto
eziyingcithakalo, nazo zonke lezi zinto ezikhubaza izwe lethu kuzoba yizinto zesikhathi esidlule.

Ngakhoke iqembu leNkatha njengoba sonke sibonile belethula uhla lwezithembiso zalo e-Moses Mabhida nempelasonto edlule lapho umongameli wayo oyilungu lale Ndlu uMnumzane uVelenkosini Hlabisa atshele izwe ukuthi njengeNkatha sesikumisele ukuba basithume, basijube ukuba sibalekelele, sibalungisele yonke le nhlekelele edalwe yilaba abangasesandleni sokudla abayiqembu elibusayo. Ngakhoke, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, asikugczelele ngokweqile ukuthi isikweletu sesizwe sethu sikhula ngamawala, asikwazi ukucosha izinkece ezanele ukuba sikhokhele izindleko ngeke sikwazi nokugcizelela imali eholwa izisebenzi zikaHulumeni iyakhula minyaka yonke nokungekho zinyathelo ezisobala ezikhombisayo ukuthi uHulumeni umele, ukulungele noma uyafisa ukuthi akulungise lokho. Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo.


Thank you very much, House Chair. [Time expired.]

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, South Africa currently finds itself in an unprecedented economic crisis due to the
ANC government’s mismanagement, abuses, corruption ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, members!


Mr W W WESSELS: ... and skewed priorities. The hon Maswanganyi speaks about transformation of the economy and that the ANC transformed the economy in the last 30 years. How does that transformed economy look? There are more people annually in the last decade that are disgruntled and do not even seek jobs anymore. We have limited job opportunities. We have a small tax base. We have a 0,2% economic growth. That is how the transformed economy looks. More than 14 million South Africans are in severe poverty because of them being below the food poverty line. Is that a success? It is not. We need a plan. We need a plan to rebuild the economy. However, the ANC does not have a plan. Your plans have failed. Your policies have failed. However, this fiscal framework once again is based on the failures, a repetition of what has been proven not to work. We don’t have an efficient and sustainable economic growth rate in South Africa and before we get that, we won’t have prosperity, and we can’t restore the fiscal dilemma which we are currently in.
We need to appoint the best person to do the job, regardless of his card-carrying cadreship. We need to appoint people who can restore our infrastructure and our service delivery. We need to eradicate corruption by having the political will to do so, which the ANC lacks. We need to do away with needless regulations that are currently the barrier to growth and to the private sector expanding and creating job opportunities. We need to have policy certainty which we currently do not have. We need labour legislation and regulations that encourage and facilitate job creation. We need real structural reforms that facilitate the Fourth Industrial Revolution which the ANC can only talk about but do not actually implement, and actually are part of. We need quality education and skills development rather than only talking about it.

A bad government cannot only be described as bad, but it should also rather be described as the enemy. You are the enemy. The enemy of the people, the enemy of the country.

U tyd het uitgeloop en daar is gelukkig hoop, want op 29 Mei


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Wessels, please take your seat. Why are you raising, hon member?


Adv M R M MOTHAPO: Agb lid, ... [Onhoorbaar.]


Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Gaan jy die vraag neem?


Mr W W WESSELS: Yes, I will.


Adv M R M MOTHAPO: As you say that you need quality education, do you think the education the government of the ANC is offering now is less than Bantu Education that was offered during apartheid? Are you referring to that?

Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. What the ANC government should talk about is the fact that 30 years later, a child can still only go to school in Afrikaans or English. Are you better than the previous government? No, you’re not. You had 30 years of opportunities to develop all official languages, but you have not, because you spend money
only on yourself. You spend money on luxuries for your Ministers whilst the people are suffering. You don’t eradicate the bucket system at schools. No, you don’t. You don’t build new schools, you don’t. You have failed the people. However, luckily on 29 May 2024, the people can start rebuilding and restoring this country by getting rid of this uncaring government. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chairperson, the public finances are in a dire situation. Gross debt has grown from R1,58 trillion 10 years ago to a staggering R5 trillion this year and is set to peak at 75% of gross domestic product, GDP in 2025-26. This is far higher than the 60% of GDP recommended for emerging economies. This, I’m sure, is of great concern to every member of the House as it is to the ACDP.

Despite National Treasury’s commitment to fiscal consolidation since 2012, both the budget deficit and debt to GDP ratios have consistently increased. Rising debt levels and debt service costs absorb more than 20c of every rand. Chairperson, 20c of every rand that is collected, that is R385 billion for this financial year and crowd out much needed expenditure on social development, health, community development, economic
development and peace and security. This is a direct result of slow economic growth caused mainly by crisis at Eskom and Transnet, and of course poor economic policies by the ANC government.

It is in our view time for change. It is time for change and time to vote in a new government. Chairperson, the ACDP believes that slow economic growth and reduced tax collection has resulted in the new need to reduce government expenditure. Revenue collection has deteriorated significantly. Windfall tax gained over the past two years have come to an end, and National Treasury predicts a revenue shortfall of
R56,1 billion in the present financial year.

Chairperson, the ACDP believes rather than increasing taxes, the tax base must be broadened whilst also improving tax compliance and administrative efficiency. And while no tax increases were announced, personal income tax will be increased by not adjusting the tax brackets, rebates and medical tax credits for inflation. This will put further pressure on already constrained households and individuals.
The ACDP is also concerned about the proposals to use the R150 billion in the Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account, GFECRA to offset the fiscal deficit. The Finance and Fiscal Commission emphasised that the use of this account is, in effect weakening South Africa’s strategic position and capability to stabilise currency value in an increasing volatile world economy.

The ACDP agrees that by accessing these funds, President Ramaphosa is shielding the ANC from the consequences of poor economic policy choices, corruption and wasteful expenditure and it creates a dangerous precedent. What happens for future governments wanting to use this account and then depleting the country’s reserve buffer? The ACDP cannot support the accessing of this account and we will not support this report. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, the NFP supports the report tabled here today. Indeed, I see there’s a whole lot of attacking, insulting, abuse taking place. Something that I think we’ve experienced for the last couple of ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Sarupen and hon ... [Inaudible] ... please. I want to hear what the hon member is saying. No, no, no don’t do that. Proceed hon member.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Is that not the reason why we find ourselves where we are, rather than finding solutions to where the country is and where we want it to go? All we can do is attack, attack, and attack.

But let me advise this House that challenges exist in every sphere of government, wherever anybody governs. That goes for all political parties. The easiest thing to do is to attack the ruling party because all the others are looking for one thing in common and that is for a regime change in South Africa.

There have been successes in the country and let us not compare this to the days of apartheid. During the days of apartheid, our people were treated as subhuman. Let us be honest, Bantu education, you know exactly what I am talking about. You know the contribution of the Indian community in South Africa and how they had to build schools on their own,
because the apartheid government refused to build those schools.

So, let us not try to compare what has happened in apartheid and today. Chairperson, what we’ve inherited in this country is a bankrupt state. Let us not forget that. Let us not forget the fact that over and above receiving a bankrupt state, there were illicit financial flows where the raw materials, the minerals of this country were through the Zionist State of Israel were being sent through to Switzerland and other countries in the world.

That is why today you find many of the assets of those big conglomerates who continue with the illicit financial flows. We call on the Minister to deal with this with these illicit financial flows, where huge companies in South Africa are showing losses in South African profits abroad just to evade taxes. Yes, we must broaden the tax base, but make sure that these people are compliant as far as paying taxes.

We note that there’s been an increase of about 132 000 jobs in the last quarter. We welcome those things, and we think that a lot of work needs to be done. The fact of the matter is there
are weaknesses, but more importantly, there’s been a lot of successes. If you look at the number of people that have homes today, the number of people that have drinking water today, which we’ve never had in the days of apartheid. The NFP will support this report. Thank you very much.

Ms Z NKOMO: Hon House Chair, greetings to the hon members, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party and the Ministers present.
Let me start by saying ...


... asinavalo kwaye asoyiki ngokoyikiswa.


Our people know the truth. That is why they continue to vote for the ANC because they continue to show their confidence in us. Hon Wessels, I just want to address this. What you’ve just said about the education system, is an insult to the generation of 1976, that fought against the apartheid education system.

Hon House Chair, the ANC welcomes the budget which was tabled at the time when the world and the and the country were
recovering from the impact of the coronavirus pandemic and the conflict The cost of living has risen globally as countries have taken measures to reduce inflation levels through increasing interest rates which mostly impact the poor and the middle class.

We welcome the tax proposal that aimed to generate R15 billion for the 2024-25 financial year. With the market increase in the fuel price, the government has not increased the fuel levy and the Road Accident Fund, RAF levy resulting in a tax relief of 4 billion of consumers and fuel price hikes.

Yesterday, the Standing Committee on Finance considered Pension Fund Amendment Bill which ensures that two-pot system is implemented. The two-pot system will allow South African public and private sector workers to access a portion of their pension fund.

We are happy as the ANC that the workers of South Africa are awaiting the introduction of the two-pot system on 01 September 2024. This option allows workers to draw a limited amount to caution the impact of the cost of living. So, it simply means that you don’t have to wait until you are 60 or
65 to access your pension, but you can access a particular amount.

To protect the vulnerable and poor, the budget increased the difference in social grants with an increase of R100 to the older persons’ grant, war veterans grant, disability grant and care dependency grant. This amount will be divided into R90 effective from 01 April and R10 effective from October. There will also be a R50 increase to foster care grant and a R20 increase to the child support grant. These are changeable measures to mitigate the cost of living by the ANC that cares.

We also welcome the introduction of global minimum tax rule, which seeks to protect the corporate tax base limit and limit tax competition and expected to increase corporate tax by
R8 billion in 2026. This strengthens our measures to address base erosion and profit shifting through the income inclusion rule and domestic minimum top-up tax, which focuses on municipal companies which aligns South Africa with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

We are confident that the further commitment to allocate funds for SA Revenue Service, Sars will strengthen its capacity to
address illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting. Artificial intelligence and machine learning after opportunities to even further develop complex information and communications technology, ICT system which can enhance tackling of illicit financial flows, base erosion, profit shifting and tax avoidance. Our revenue system already has technological base and can involve its capacity.

Hon members, we also need to acknowledge that despite our economy facing a number of challenges that impact its growth, key institutions such as SA Revenue Service have ensured efficient tax collection. Over the past five years, the Sixth Administration has made prudent decisions to ensure that critical government programmes anchored our development and are supported without interruption.

The government continues to provide funding to sustain basic services. In other instances, social services have been expanded, such as the comprehensive social security system through the introduction of social relief of distress grant since the pandemic. Government has also expanded access to higher education through fee free higher education for poor. This year the funding for the missing middle has been secured.
Hon members, South Africa has a relatively high debt to GDP ratio compared to previous years. We must note that the national level of debt does not signal a challenge or a negative economic indicator. What is critical is ensuring that the debt we accumulate as a country contributes to economy’s medium to long-term growth trajectory. Many countries have higher levels of debt which are able to sustain them through a growing economy.

We are also confident in the bold measures to end load shedding and secure long-term energy security and intervention to address the network industry. We believe economic growth is the only sustainable answer to the debt sustainability question. Hon members, one of the mandates of National Treasury is to co-ordinate fiscal and monetary policy.
Implicating fiscal policy and monetary policy instrument is critical to ensure debt sustainability to ensure the economy of the country grows and the public expenditure.

We welcome the decision of National Treasury to tap into Gold and Foreign Exchange Contingency Reserve Account to support debt sustainability measures with the drawing of R100 billion in the current financial year. Hon Minister, we further
propose that we should widen our scope of the use of the reserve to also support economical stimulating intervention and to restrict it for debt purposes. We also call for the continuous prudent consideration of other monetary policy instruments to support fiscal policy without crowding capital for investment.

Hon members, South Africa is the most unequal society in the world due to its colonial history of dispossession and exclusion of the black majority into the economy. Our redistributive tax system should enhance wealth related taxes to collect sufficient tax. This is critical to lessen the focus on income tax and VAT to increase government revenue as the taxes mostly impact workers and the poor. We must also consider increasing the company tax to 28% as the case. We support the budget as it enables government to continue providing more services and we call for better delivery to improve the living conditions of all South Africans. When the ANC speaks, everybody listens. Thank you.

Mr T LOATE: House Chair, as Cope, we cannot support this report, because the overview highlights that the economy needs
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! I cannot hear.


Mr T LOATE: ... investment to grow and create jobs. Due to the dreadful situation of public finance, investors are flying away. There are no structural reforms that will improve state capacity and therefore, the environment for public and private investment is badly lacking.

National Treasury is cautioning that nothing can be done at the moment to reverse the consequences of operational maintenance and governance failures at state-owned enterprises responsible for electricity, rail and ports. This is a severe indictment on government. The gross loan debt to the GDP trajectory is about 16% higher than the median emerging market level. This is very bad. National Treasury is saying that reducing the debt-service costs is critical for growth and development. And, as this is projected to actually increase, there cannot be economic growth and development. Job creation won’t happen.

Our economic decline will also be made worse by the supply side constraints to economic growth, namely a sharp decrease in commodity export prices, increased borrowing costs for the
government and consumers, and the impact of high interest and inflation rates on consumption spending. South Africa is facing an economic nightmare.

Government’s revenue collection has deteriorated substantially over the past year, due to weak economic conditions. Compared to the 2023 Budget, National Treasury is predicting a revenue shortfall of R56,1 billion in 2023-24. There is going to be a very slight increase in revenue collection over the medium term, which will come from personal income tax increases of R15 billion in 2024-25.

Consolidated expenditure will amount to R2,4 trillion in 2024- 25, way more than the projected revenue. Our country is going deep into debt. The 2024 Budget has added R57,6 billion to expenditure over the medium term, mainly to cover the cost of the 2023 public service wage agreement. This increase is going to be funded with more borrowing. The gross loan debt is now projected to reach R5,2 trillion, or 73,9% of the GDP in 2023-
24. The debt keeps climbing.

The total approved guarantees to SOEs are expected to increase by R33 billion to R503,3 billion by 31 March 2024. Most SOEs
remain in distress, due to weak governance, financial strain, and poor operational performances. Even so, they get more and more money and guarantees without anything being improved.
However, the biggest shocker is that the debt service costs will rise from ... [Time expired.] Thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, you heard from the hon member of the ANC a few minutes ago that South Africa is the most unequal society in the world. I am sure you know that whites are seven times better off before apartheid, after three decades. The fiscal policy does not address this inequality, and we have had six Parliaments to do so. Then you hear the FF Plus pleading poverty. What a joke!

The fiscal policy should start introducing reparations by beneficiaries of apartheid. The Portfolio Committee on Finance should have spent more time on closing the loopholes of illicit financial flows, which would have doubled the budget for the Seventh Parliament with more tax from the corporate.
However, we are giving the corporates a free ride.


Treasury also agreed with me when the Minister used to meet with leaders of political parties - it doesn’t do so anymore -
that in every line item, there is 30% fat. They should remove that fat. It is shameful that we have a fiscal policy that does not provide for decent work, in terms of the Convention on Decent Work, which President Mandela signed, and for which he received the first annual award and Comrade Winnie received the second award. So, that is just a ... [Inaudible.] ... and full employment is a manifesto promise of Al Jama-ah.

This can only be achieved if there is full employment, and a target be in 2030. The fiscal policy does not give hope and excludes the prosperity that will come from intra-African continental trade. The fiscal policy should have given direction that the prosperity will come from trade between the states. Al Jama-ah will support the report. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hendricks, let us not forget that we have conventions in this House and one of them is that we should have plain walls, or we should have parliamentary buildings. I like the wallpaper, but it’s not what we agreed upon.
Mr A N SARUPEN: House Chair, I am honoured that hon Maswanganyi was concerned about me in this debate that he mentioned me twice in his speech opening this debate. I just want to say to the ANC, please, don’t worry about me. All I want is growth and jobs for all South Africans. You should be worried about former President Zuma, ubaba [father]. He is coming for your votes in southern KwaZulu-Natal. Leave northern KwaZulu-Natal. Go door to door in southern KwaZulu- Natal. I strongly recommend it. So, ubaba [father] is coming for you. I don’t worry, I'm not worried about anything. You must be worried. Ubaba [father] is coming now.

Now you know, I’m also concerned. I enjoy when the ANC heckle me, I really do. And it really helps me to get into the zone to give a good speech. And there is going to be so much few of you after the election. I am not going to be able to give these good speeches, if there is only going to be 160 or 170 or 180 members. It is going to be so sad for me. I am actually quite worried, but it’s okay. I’ll trust you to sort yourself out.

Now, with debating the fiscal framework and when we consider the fiscal framework, we need to speak about the credibility -
and not ANC-list credibility, real credibility. The credibility of public finances is critical, because it lowers borrowing costs by lowering our sovereign risk premium; it provides confidence to investors that the state is responsible in its fiscal planning and execution; it shores up macroeconomic stability; it ensures that we have resilience to economic shocks; it lowers inflationary pressures, and it leads to long-run economic growth.

Sadly, over the last decade, the state has been progressively drifting away from fiscal credibility, starting with the Zuma era, and accelerating under President Ramaphosa. Ubaba [father] started it, but President Ramaphosa continued. Every year in this Budget, unfortunately, the state produces its growth outlook and every year for the last decade, these growth outlooks have been overstated.

Now, this is very worrying when we can’t even project a 2% growth. So, we are now in a situation where Treasury says growth will be 1,6%. We end up with real growth at less than 1%, usually 0,6. This undermines all budgetary assumptions and a budgetary framework in last year led to a massive deficit.
As a second example of drifting away from fiscal responsibility is the fact that the state does not have the capacity to take difficult decisions for the good of South Africa. So, we produce budgets to make warring factions of the ANC happy. In 2023, the government budgeted a 0% increase in civil servants, but you failed to follow through because of a hysterical response from your friends in Cosatu, and because your many cadres said that they were not going to get increases that year and had a meltdown. So, 30 000 millionaire managers in national and provincial governments, who consume huge amounts of government money and the big proportion of our salary increases said that we cannot do this. So, you had to give them increases, because the comrades need more to eat.

Now, a third example of this drift is the fact that the state has consistently over the last decade, failed to stabilise government debts. We keep hearing plans and projections to stabilise government debts, but our fiscal framework shows that this is not being met and debt is out of control. It will reach R5,2 trillion this year.

And instead of taking some hard decisions and reducing bailouts and guarantees to SOEs, this year, the guarantees to
SOEs will increase by R33 billion, bringing the grand total of bailouts and guarantees to SOE to R503 billion.

Now, the operating principle of the fiscal framework, unfortunately has been reduced to one principle, that cadres need to eat. So, cadre deployment means that people keep eating above-salary inflation increases. Cadres continue eating through corrupt SOEs as South Africans continue to struggle. As a country, we cannot afford a government to use tax money primarily to benefit the factions of the majority party. The Budget provides a very clear reason why it is time to end the rule of ANC cadres. Thank you.

Num G J SKOSANA: Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, malunga ahloniphekileko, sizwe sekhethu, lotjhani.

When we took over the government in 1994, we promised our people that we would improve their living conditions and advance transformation and renewal that will permeate through every facet of our society. We said in our Reconstruction and Development Project, RDP, based document that, I quote:
Both business and labour have the freedom in a democratic South Africa to protect and promote their immediate interest. It is the government’s hope that they will jointly pursue the broader changes of extending the opportunity to the millions of adult South Africans who can currently find no place in the formal economy.

Thirty years later, many people have found a place in the formal economy. Since 1994, more people entered the workforce. Total employment increased from 11,5 million in 1994 to
16,7 million to date. I hope hon Wessels and Sarupen are noting that. The South African economy is almost twice as large as it was three decades ago at the birth of democracy, and as individuals we are on average better off by one and a half times by monetary measures when we measure by the Human Development Index, which adds health and education status.

The fiscal framework correctly ensures development through sustainable public finances and despite persistently low economic growth, the ANC-led government continues to protect critical services, stabilise debt and support economic growth through reforms.
The emphasis on structural reforms is important and requires international comparison to make to make the point. The implementation of reform in China in the 1980s enable China to move from an impoverished state to the second largest economy globally. Like China, we must stick to economic development as a central task, continue to liberate and develop productivity and persistently reform systems that hamper economic growth.

The reforms in electricity, rail ports and telecommunications are a necessary requirement to enable this growth. These network industries are important in reducing the cost of doing business and living in South Africa by lowering production costs, thus making South Africa attractive for investment.

Our growth will further gain momentum once qualitatively start moving to high value-added production to support structural transformation. Significant progress has been made in enhancing naturalisation and notable successes in the automotive sector.

The reimagined industrial strategy introduced master plans to facilitate social compacting in growing the productive base of the economy between government and other actors. Eight such
master plans are being implemented to illustrate the point. Investment seen in special economic zones like the Tshwane Special Economic Zone, SEZ, which introduced local production in the automotive sector, has since created 625 jobs and the combined impact of SEZs industrial parks across the country has resulted in the creation of an estimated 65 500 jobs.

Isuzu has upgraded its local manufacturing facility with an investment of R1,2 billion. The investment has secured 1000 direct jobs and enabled around 25 000 jobs at hundreds of suppliers across the country. These SEZs and industrial parks are the centre of driving special transformation in the economy.

Growing revenue collection is critical to ensure fiscal sustainability, the investment in infrastructure of
R943,8 billion will, over the medium term, crowd in private sector and enable growth. The structural reforms will facilitate a shift in the quantity and quality of infrastructure delivery and ensure that projects are implemented more effectively.
The partnership with DFIs and pension funds through Regulation

28 will enable fast tracking and delivery of critical services aimed at driving growth, which will relieve pressure on the fiscus and enhance revenue collection in the process.

We do acknowledge that we got fiscal challenges and fiscal crisis like all members of the opposition have indicated. However, as the chair also indicated that we have a number of recommendations that we have put forward to remedy the situation. Members of the opposition must also acknowledge the fact that the legacy of apartheid and colonialism has also contributed a lot for us to be in this position, hon George.
You must remember that as the ANC we inherited a bankrupt government that was bankrupt because of the massive looting that happened during apartheid. That is the point that you do not want to make.

Agb Wessels, die ANC het ’n bankrot regering geërf.



So, those are the things that made us to be where we are. Other global challenges, hon Sarupen, that you must take note
of are the great recession of 2008 whose effects are still there and note the COVID-19 pandemic of 2019 and 2020. Its effects are also still there. It had rippling effects on the economy. As you raise this point you must also note that.

Hon Manyi, when you say that the EFF is coming in and the ANC is going out you are contradicting Msholozi and you can’t contradict Msholozi because you are the spokesperson of the Zuma foundation. Msholozi said that the ANC will govern until Jesus comes back. You can’t contradict Msholozi ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you very much. As the ANC ...


... siyawusekela lombiko. #Siyabuya ... [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, we said the aim of this Budget is balancing development and fiscal sustainability. However, let me state that, over the past 30 years, this government has tried to follow the constitutional injunction of the progressive realisation of the rights of our people. I made the point progressive realisation. A progressive realisation does not mean that it happens in one day. Let me cite by way of example of the matriculants that
obtained university entrance. Last year, 65% of those came from no-fee schools, which means kids from poor backgrounds. It is a progressive realisation of these basic rights.

We stated that we make no claims. We stated in the Budget and in the Budget Speech that, over the past decade, the economy grew, on average, 0,8%. We did not say that is a better performance for a developing economy. We accept that.

Forecasting is something that, like all other things, differs from institution to institution. Let me cite an example. Last year, the IMF said the South African economy will grow at 0,1%. At the budget, we were at 0,9%. By the time we tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the IMF has gone to 0,9% where we were at the beginning. We moved downwards to 0,8%. By the time we table the Budget this year, we revise our focus to 0,6%. And then Statistic SA came to the same number, 0,6%, which was our forecast.

It is in that context that I must emphasise that we set our three pillars as ensuring macroeconomic stability, implementing structural reforms, enhancing state capacity. On the revenue front, I would imagine one of the things we need
to do is to arrange some time for some education for our colleagues on this side, to understand how it works and what
... [Inaudible.] ... International is. They must understand how we are managing the risks of currency fluctuations, as part of that structure. How is it structured? Then people will have a better understanding of it. I think that will make more sense.

Let me say again, His Excellency the President, in his state of the nation address said that the R550 is going to continue and the R350 will be improved. My colleague, the Minister of Social Development is going to publish for comment a Comprehensive Social Security programme, which will define a better platform and the future of the social security network in South Africa. We then also said that my colleague is going to publish regulations, and as she published those regulations, she will publish the new grant - how much the new R350 will be increased to.

I am pleased to say that we have reached consensus that, subject to the finalisation of the Comprehensive Social Security programme, will increase the R350 to R370 by 1 April this year. That is part of the progressive realisation of ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: ... the of the basic rights of our people. Much has been said, which I think people do not understand at the moment. People are more canvassing than focusing on the substantive issues raised in the Budget. We made the point that, on the revenue front, performance has not been ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: And as a result of that, we had to make the necessary changes we did, including the trifactor changes.

I must say one of the important things about the trifactor is that it has always been on the liability side on the Reserve Bank and on the asset side of Treasury. If you have followed over the years, and if you have been reading the Budget Review, you would find that the trifactor is there.

Moving forward, we have developed a framework of how, in future, we are going to treat devaluations on the ...
[Inaudible.] ... and how those funds will be transferred to the fiscus and under what conditions. An agreement between the Governor of the Reserve Bank and the Minister of Finance will be signed pretty soon.

We therefore think this Budget is one of the best Budgets under difficult circumstances. It has been welcomed worldwide
- I must make that point - in the market, by all economists and by a number of progressive people in the country. So, it has been welcomed, except by those who are trying to undermine it because of the elections. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, order! Hon Ms Khawula ...

Ungabangi itjhada. Akhe ukhulume kuhle njengabanye. Thula-ke uzamkhulumisa ngaphandle uNgqongqotjhe.

Order! Ms Khawula, you cannot do that. We are in a House here; we are not outside. Please.
Debate concluded.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the 2024 Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals and Report of Standing Committee on Finance thereon be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

2024 Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals and Report of Standing Committee on Finance accordingly adopted.

The House adjourned at 19:24.



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