Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 13 Mar 2024


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary 


The Council met at 14:03.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The Chairperson announced that the virtual sitting constituted a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.



Ms A D MALEKA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates strengthening and expediting of efforts geared at finding solutions to a multitude of challenges faced by various municipalities in the provision of water and sanitation services to the communities they serve.
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates ways of addressing the constraints of 30 days noncompliance by government departments, and its huge implications on small businesses’ critical survival.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair of the Council, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF that the House debates and find solutions on the ongoing lawlessness happening in communities and the killings that are happening in the John Taolo Gaetsewe region of the Northern Cape.

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC that the House debates strengthening of the criminal justice system by increasing the number of sexual offences courts, to ensure harsher sentences are imposed for Gender-Based Violence and Femicide, GBVF, related crimes and stricter bail conditions for suspects.
Ms C VISSER: Hon chair, my connection is not so good. Can you hear me?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I can hear you. Please proceed.

Ms C VISER: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House—

(1) notes with concern that the North West province is currently hit hard by drought that has severely impacted water availability, farm production and livestock holdings;

(2) also notes that the North West province, like several other provinces in the country and currently exposed to a livestock drought disaster following the low rainfall and heatwave;
(3) further notes that 1,4 million hectares of the North West was destroyed by uncontained fires driven by high winds;

(4) recognises that commercial farmers, upcoming farmers and existing farmers lost livestock and livelihoods and their grazing fields;

(5) also recognises that due to very low seasonal rainfall, grazing fields were not able to be restored to sustain fodder supply for winter;

(6) requests that the North West Premier declare the North West province a drought disaster area in all four municipalities in the 3023-24 hydrological year as it is evident that the effects of the fire disaster and the subsequent drought will affect food security in the province and cause direct production losses on the current crop season and a possibility of job losses; and

(7) also request an urgent intervention on the state of the drought through the Provincial Disaster Management
Centre and in consultation with the National Department of Agriculture, as well as further engagement with the National Disaster Management Centre for possible disaster relief in collaboration with the National Treasury.

Ms N NDONGENI: Chair ... [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you just ensure that hon Ndongeni is assisted and that she becomes a bit more audible? Hon Ndongeni, unmute.

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Maybe she must switch off the video, Chair.

Ms N NDONGENI: [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF TNE NCOP: Let’s go on to hon Lehihi. Hon Lehihi, notice of a motion?



(Draft Resolution)
Ms S B LEHIHI: Chair, I rise on behalf of the EFF:


That the Council –


(1) notes that this past Friday, on 8 March 2024, we commemorated International Women’s Day. A day set aside to celebrate women and girls around the world;

(2) further notes that the German Marxist theorist and activist, Clara Zetkin proposed this concept of an International Women’s Day back in 1910;

(3) acknowledges that Clara carefully identified the strategy for women as a socialist ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Lehihi, please unmute. Can I ask other hon members, please not to interfere with system ...


Moh S B LEHIHI: Ga ese nna ke timileng Modulasetilo.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Okay.


(4) acknowledge that Clara carefully identified the struggle for women as a socialist struggle. An ideal which is still relevant for our own society today because the struggle for the emancipation of women has not changed much, particularly in our own country;

(5) further acknowledges that today in South Africa, women are faced with poverty. We suffer the most from crime, and when we are lucky to find employment, we are paid less than the men, even for doing the same work;

(6) recognizes that the EFF is the only political party that has consistently ... [Inaudible.] ... the struggle for women emancipation since its formation; and

(7) the EFF reaffirms its commitment to the complete emancipation of women and dedicate this International Women’s Day to the women of Palestine who lives under permanent conditions of war and violence due to Israel’s apartheid occupation.
I so move.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Lehihi. Hon members, we will then move on to motions without notice. Any motions without notice? Next up is hon Rayi.

Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon Chair.


Ms S B LEHIHI: Sorry, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed, hon Rayi.


Mr M I RAYI: Thanks. Hon Lehihi is disrupting.

Ms S B LEHIHI: I am sorry for that. I thought we were on motions without notice.

Mr M I RAYI: We are only starting now.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are only starting now. Please hon Rayi, proceed.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hey Rayi, don’t chair the session. Rayi, you are not Chair of the session.

Mr M I RAYI: I will take you off the platform.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Rayi, please proceed.



(Draft Resolution)


Mr M I RAYI: Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –

(1) applauds the Eastern Cape government led by Premier Oscar Mabuyane for his dedicated efforts in tracking and tracing ex-mineworkers who have not received their due benefits upon leaving their employment since the 1960s;
(2) notes with appreciation that the Eastern Cape has successfully tracked and traced 49 890 ex-mineworkers through outreach and municipal base work in services, paying 18 555 of them an impressive amount of
R756 million to date;


(3) further notes that the Eastern Cape ANC mandated the provincial government in 2018 to address the plight of the ex-mineworkers by hosting the 2019 Ex-Mineworkers Summit that established the Ex-Mineworkers Council, who then adopted the Eastern Cape Ex-Mineworkers Intervention Program;

(4) recognizes that the successful model implemented in the Eastern Cape has been extended to other provinces in Southern African Development Community Region; and

(5) congratulates the ANC Eastern Cape led government for its outstanding leadership and for being a beacon of hope to the ex-mineworkers and the working class in general.

I so move.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon Rayi. Any objection to this motion?

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I object to this motion. Last week this motion was raised. We object to the corruption of the Eastern Cape government. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There being an objection, the motion will not be proceeded with, and it will become a notice of a motion. Hon Mthethwa.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –


(1) notes with concern the continued disruption of the construction of critical infrastructure by the construction mafia, especially in the provinces of the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal;
(2) also notes that these disruptions deprive our communities of essential government services and threaten investment in the affected areas;

(3) therefore calls on the criminal justice system to intensify the fight against this scourge of construction mafia by strengthening partnerships and collaboration with the local communities, and;

(4) further calls on our courts of law to impose harsh sentences on those that are found guilty of these crimes.

I so move.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the FFPlus:

That the Council –


(1) notes that the Kopanong Local Municipality has not been able to pay salaries since December last year due to their accounts being frozen as a result of non-payments to pension funds and medical aid schemes;

(2) also notes that the employees of the Kopanong Local Municipality are now on strike due to the non- payment of salaries and that no services are being delivered to residents;

(3) further notes that the Kopanong Local Municipality has been under 30% water restrictions for more than two years now; and

(4) acknowledges that it has been more than a year since the Deputy President intervened in the Kopanong Local Municipality and more than six months since
the Kopanong Local Municipality was placed under section 139 intervention to no avail;

(5) further knowledges that that the situation in Kopanong Local Municipality is a direct violation of citizen’s human rights as stated in Article 27 of the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa; and

(6) notes that to this day, government does not have the capacity to turn around this failure by the municipality.

I so move.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)
Ms S SHAIKH: Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council –


(1) notes that the Police Services National Counterfeit Unit led a successful integrated takedown operation in the Johannesburg CBD on Friday, 08 March 2024;

(2) also notes that the operation resulted in the seizure of counterfeit goods worth over R9 million;

(3) further notes that in the operation the team seized over 11 000 counterfeit items such as clothing apparel, shoes, watches, handbags and sunglasses;

(4) understands that this was the third takedown operation executed in the Gauteng province in the last four weeks;

(5) also understands that the total value of counterfeit goods seized for the past four weeks is over
R30 million;
(6) believes that counterfeit goods have a detrimental impact on the economic growth of South Africa; and

(7) commends the SA Police Service for remaining relentless in their efforts to uproot the illicit trade in counterfeit goods.

I so move.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)


Ms L C BEBEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council-
(1) wishes the South African Muslims and the Muslim community at large well during the holy month of Ramadan;

(2) believes that Ramadan is dedicated to spiritual devotion, physical sacrifice and charitable outreach for Muslims;

(3) also believes that it is an opportunity and a time for Muslims all over the world to connect in faith and prayers, moreover with those Muslims facing hardships and challenging conditions in some parts of the world;

(4) remembers especially millions of Muslims who are observing Ramadan under conditions of conflict, war, displacement and oppression; and

(5) calls all South Africans to keep in prayers the peoples of Palestine, Yemen, Sudan, the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, Western Sahara, Mali and others, to whom this holy month is a time of great hardship and suffering.
I so move.


Ms L C BEBEE: We can’t hear you, Chair.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Bebee. Maybe I should pose the question again. Any objections to the motion?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dangor will follow.


Moh S B LEHIHI: Modulasitilo, ke kopa go botsa. A ke kgona go fitisa tsitsinyo ya ka? Ke botsa ka gonne ke dirile pošo.


MODULASETILO WA KANSELE: Pošo ya gago re tla e sheba, mma ...

... it’s noted.


Moh S B LEHIHI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Over to you, hon Dangor.



(Draft Resolution)


Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-


(1) notes with utmost concern the hike in murders in the Gauteng province;

(2) further notes that at least 1 787 people were murdered in Gauteng from October to December 2023, which is an increase of 3,8% compared to the same
period in 2022, and that of the 787 people murdered,

214 were women and 55 were children;

(3) acknowledges that an analysis of a sample of 1 691 cases revealed that the three top contributors of the general increase of murder were arguments, misunderstandings, provocation and road rage, which accounts for 185 cases, followed by house and business robberies, which accounts for 154 cases and vigilantism which counts for 84 cases;

(4) recognises that these statistics are a clear indication of the pervasiveness of armed violence, blatant disregard of the rule of law and intolerable utter criminality; and

(5) calls upon the MEC for Community Safety in Gauteng and the Minister of Police to develop an emergency response to wage a concerted battle against the pervasiveness of armed violence.

I thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Dangor. Any objections to the motion?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council-

(1) notes that today, marks forty-four years since the death of anti-apartheid activist and founding member of the African National Congress Women’s League, ANCWL, Lilian Masediba Matabane Ngoyi, who was fondly known as Mama Ngoyi, who died on 13 March 1980 at the age of 68 years;
(2) also notes that Lilian Ngoyi who was born in Pretoria in 1911, having been drawn into politics via her work in the Garment Workers’ Union of SA in the 1940s, joined the ANC Women’s League in 1952, and a year later, she was elected as the President of the Women’s League. In 1954, she helped to find the Federation of South African Women, FEDSAW, and was elected to the national executive of the ANC and became the first woman to be elected to the national office;

(3) recalls that in 1956, Lilian Ngoyi led a march against pass laws for women to the Union Buildings and personally knocked on Prime Minister, J G Strijdom’s door, to hand over the petitions; and

(4) takes this opportunity to pay homage to Mama Ngoyi for her indelible contribution in the fight against apartheid and championing for gender equality in our society.

I so move, hon Chairperson, and thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Mahlangu. Any objections to the motion?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Over to hon Maleka.


Ms E N NKOSI: Chairperson, it’s hon Nkosi. She was struggling with the network, but she is in now.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s proceed then to hon Nkosi.



(Draft Resolution)


Ms N E NKOSI: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council-
(1) welcomes the unwavering commitment of the Department of Health to employ about 800 recently qualified health professionals by the end of March 2024;

(2) notes that this commitment to employ such many professionals is as a result of an increase in the budget of the department as alluded to by the Minister of Finance in his budget speech;

(3) also notes that the commitment also stems from the department’s promise made to the protesting doctors in February that their plight would be sorted after the Minister of Finance’s budget speech;

(4) understands that already 270 health professionals have received the appointment letters;

(5) believes that this undertaking by the Department of Health will go a long way in improving access to the quality of public health services in South Africa; and
(6) commends the department for keeping its promise and ensuring that jobless qualified health professionals are absorbed in public health institutions.

I so move, hon Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Nkosi. Any objections to the motion?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)


Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council-


(1) notes that Friday, 15 March, marks the International Day to Combat Islamophobia, which is a day that was launched in 2019 by the United Nation’s Secretary-
General, as a strategy and plan of action on hate speech, as a response to the alarming trend of rising hate speech, fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims around the world;

(2) also notes his message for the International Day to Combat Islamophobia last year, the United Nation’s Secretary-General, António Guterres, warned that Muslims continue to face institutional discrimination, barriers and violations of their human rights and dignity at an alarming rate in many states and communities across the world;

(3) recognises that the war on Gaza has intensified the growing divisive rhetoric, bigotry and misrepresentation of the Muslims; and

(4) acknowledges that while international norms and standards provide a framework to combat incitement to discrimination and violence, laws are not enough, and states should also adopt policies and programmes that promote diversity and freedom of expression,
especially, in the multicultural and interconnected societies

I so move, Chair. You are muted, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Nchabeleng. I raise the question again. Are there any objections to the motion?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Draft Resolution)


Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House-


(1) notes with shock and sadness on the passing of a South African soccer legend, Siphiwe Mkhonza, popularly known as “Dr Mnandi” in the soccer circles;
(2) also notes that Siphiwe Mkhonza was born on 2 January 1979 and passed away on 5 March 2024;

(3) further notes the late Mkhonza played as a central defender for teams like Bloemfontein Celtics, Ria Stars, Lamontville Golden Arrows, Kaizer Chiefs and the national soccer team, Bafana Bafana;

(4) notes that his father, Joseph “Skhechekheche” Mkhonza, was a soccer great himself, who later coached the national women soccer team, Banyana Banyana, during the 2012 Summer Olympics;

(5) takes this opportunity to send our heartfelt condolences to his family, friends and the entire soccer loving public.

I so move.


Agreed to


(Draft Resolution)


Mr I NTSUBE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House-


(1) notes the escalating levels of data breaches in South Africa which continue to threaten national security;

(2) also notes the patterns of these breaches seem to target institutions that are hosts to critical information about the personal and financial details of individuals which can expose these individuals to criminal victimization;

(3) further notes that as reported by the media, the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, CIPC, is the latest victim of this breach on 29 February 2024;

(4) notes that South Africa is being targeted by the international cybercrime syndicates to undermine the rule of law and national security;
(5) condemns in the strongest terms possible these criminal activities and call on the criminal justice cluster to leave no stone unturned in identifying the perpetrators of these crimes and bring them to book;

(6) calls for the comprehensive review of national capabilities and the efficacy of our legislation in dealing with these crimes as a matter of urgency.

I so move.

Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)


Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House-
(1) notes with concern the opportunistic and desperate behaviour by the Shadow Minister of the DA for soliciting partisan observer status of the United States government during the coming national and provincial elections on 29 May 2024;

(2) further notes that this behaviour is tantamount to a motion of no confidence in the ability of the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, to conduct free and fair elections and the efficacy of our electoral laws to regulate free and fair elections which the DA have never pronounced publicly;

(3) believes that this behaviour undermines the sovereignty of South Africa as a state and is driven by the panic mode of the DA due to a possible significant decline of its electoral support in the coming elections;

(4) therefore, calls on all South Africans to condemn this heinous behaviour in the strongest terms possible and call upon South Africans to punish them in the coming national elections.
I so move.


Objected to.



Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon Chairperson, esteemed colleagues and distinguished members of the National Council of Provinces, today I stand before you as a representative of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, tasked with conveying the critical insights and recommendations arising from our recent engagement with key stakeholders in the South African defence industry. Our visit to Rheinmetall Denel Munition, known as RDM, and Damen Shipyard have provided invaluable perspectives on the state of our national defence capabilities and the challenges facing our industry. The observations gleaned from this engagement underscore the multifaceted nature of the challenges confronting our defence sector. From the imperative of the continuous innovation to the complexities of navigating regulatory frameworks and addressing budgetary constraints, it
is evident that a concerted effort is required to ensure the sustained effectiveness of our SA National Defence Force, SANDF.

We commend RDM's reinvestment of profits into increasing production capacity, globalising the significance of balancing domestic market support with global competitiveness. However, challenges persist in meeting the SANDF’s requirements promptly, particularly in establishing new production lines for bigger sea products. The committee emphasises the importance of strategic planning and collaboration amongst stakeholders to mitigate the impact of declining defence budgets on industry players like the RDM.

Furthermore, the committee acknowledges RDM's commitment to providing maintenance services to the SA Navy despite contract losses. Compliance with international standards in maritime transport and dedication to skills development for military veterans reflect RDM's commitment to excellence and societal responsibility, values essential for sustaining the growth of our defence industry.
Furthermore, the impact of declining defence budgets on RDM underscores the final need for innovation, solutions and collaborative efforts to optimise resource allocation. In this regard, it is imperative that we explore avenues for cost saving measures without compromising the quality and effectiveness of our defence capabilities. Additionally, we must continue to support initiatives and aims at skills development within the defence sector, ensuring that we have a skilled workforce capable of meeting the evolving needs of our armed forces.

In line with the recommendations of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, we advocate for the procurement of a fourth inshore patrol vessel, IPV, for the SA Navy, recognising its alignment with our goal of enhancing operational capabilities while considering broader SANDF needs and national security imperatives. A comprehensive assessment of naval acquisition needs over the medium to long term is imperative for informed decision-making and resource allocation.

The committee underscores the necessity of a written report from the Department of Defence on expected sea hours and the
potential impact of a fourth IPV on maintenance programmes, facilitating effective planning and resource allocation to ensure the readiness of our naval forces.

Moreover, we support the recommendations for follow-up engagements with the RDM to ensure ongoing support to the SANDF and to gain further insights into their production facilities. Such engagements are essential in fostering collaboration and synergies between the public and private sectors, ultimately strengthening our national defence capabilities.

In conclusion, the Joint Standing Committee on Defence extends its gratitude to RDM and Damen Shipyard in Cape Town for their co-operation and support to the SANDF as custodians of national security. We are committed to remaining vigilant, proactive and collaborative in addressing the challenges facing our defence industry. Through concerted efforts and strategic investment, we can safeguard our nation's sovereignty and ensure the wellbeing of our armed forces. Let us work together tirelessly to secure a peaceful and prosperous future for all of South Africa. I thank you.
Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


[Voting take in from minutes]


Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby present the Report of the Select Committee on Finance on 2024 Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals dated 5 March 2024. Hon Chairperson, as the ANC, we want to state it clear that we are here to adopt the Budget as presented by the hon Minister. We are doing so with our sober minds because of the following reasons: Despite all the challenges facing the country, the GDP remain stagnant at the average of 0,8% since 2012 and it is expected to average of 1, 2% over the medium term. That is a good story considering all the challenges facing this country post COVID-19 pandemic period.
We approved this Budget because of the commitment made by the government of the people in maintaining social wage. This is to elevate the life of poor people and to put bread on the table for people of South Africa. This is important while the government is busy looking for more suitable and sustainable ways of making sure that youth unemployment in general is permanently estimated within our mist.

Chairperson, this Budget brought about the extension of the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant until March 2025. That will serve as a relief to our people on the ground. That intervention was also appreciated by stakeholders who came to make presentation before the committee.

We as the ANC, we would like to further request National Treasury to seriously consider Basic Income Grant after necessary consultation with relevant stakeholders. We have since referred the matter of SRD Grant to the Select Committee on Appropriation for further and thorough consideration. We commend National Treasury to do everything in its power to remove the country in the Financial Action Tak Force, FATF, grey list. We know that this will be needed intervention to
attract investment and stimulate the economy to produce such needed jobs for our people.

We are also here to note National Treasury’s respond that the National Health Insurance allocation of R1,4 billion over the medium term in the 2024 Budget was only for preliminary upgrading of infrastructure in preparation of the rollout and that once the President ascended to the NHI Bill the whole range of legislative arrangement will kick in including the proposal funding models. We can’t wait for that to happen as that will better the public health system of the country.

Having said that, Chairperson, we also note the time constraints associate with the processing of the fiscal framework. We feel that more time must be given to the committee to process the Budget and that will see better contribution from the stakeholders.

We also would like to state categorically clear that all we have mentioned here today requires a speedy implementation of economic reforms and the creation of a conclusive environment for the economy to grow, creates jobs and encourage investment.
Hon Chairperson, the DA reserve its position on this matter. The EFF reserve its position even the FF Plus reserve its position. So, Chairperson, I am here to present this report to the House to be considered. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, the fiscal framework is ... [Inaudibe.] ... ground, and everyone knows that the ... [Inaudible.] ... foundation is never a sound platform to build on. This is not certainly throughout the South African economy. Our fiscal framework risk on optimistic growth full cost that previously consistently be administrated to be over projecting.

So, our income disappoints constantly, and the medium-term revenue and expenditure framework find itself comprising based on a false sense of security build on growth projection that do not materialise. This is again through in our medium-term projections where growth revenue collection is projected to
return to the growth levels experienced during the commodities boom.

Treasury needs to remember that windfalls cannot be relied upon, and that hope is not a strategy. On the other side of the equation is the unevenly high staff cost government and the very conservative growth projected in as the cost driver which is a large majority of government spending.

Treasury has made habit of projecting any of increases to conservatory through supposing the outcomes of bargaining structures. This not only alienate organised labour and give them windfall to do that, but it also has been proven to counterproductive particularly in the coming financial years with the final statement that the government cost around serious cuts to service delivery line items across the provincial and national spheres that acutely resulted in the Western Cape. It’s clearly an intergovernmental dispute partly on the basis that is thankfully negotiated wage agreement that is not centrally on the ... As we designed fiscal process, we must look at the actuality of the world and remove ourselves from the past of theory into the climate of reality. It is not enough to push on without a drastic reassessment of spending
prioritird, static growth, unbalance inflation and unmanageable debts levels of the legacy that the ANC has left for the next government to deal with.

We are pleased that some the voters are seeing the detailed Manifesto of the DA as a way out of the mist that the ANC has left us in. I thank you.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, sorry, I put my hand up.




Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, it’s a bit disappointing, I thought Ms Labuschagne will be more advisory so I can reply. She is more aedine, but she is wrong as she always is.

Firstly, it is not as the National Treasury thumb sucks up these figures for economic growth projections from the air. It’s not thumb sucks. They also consult a scientific experience in this area when they arrived to that. But she is right maybe inconsistently wrong, but it is not just help you. It’s the committee. All of us have been raising this with the Treasury and they give us replies and we keep challenging
them. challenging them. So, we are doing it across parties. Isn’t specific about the DA.

She talked about being real coming down to reality. What will she do it. In the first instance, we are not afraid of a state. The Western Cape can’t pay different salaries from the rest of the country. It is with the same trade unions.

Secondly, there is like provincial structures somewhere and so on. So, we must pay a national figure. It’s very good that we want national structure as a state. Then she talks about the DA Manifesto. What is in it, you see, part of that problem resides with us as politicians. But a substantial part also resides, Chairperson, with the civil servants. We know how it comes to power. We will have to deal with poor service. We must transform those civil servants along. There is a long hole. So, you know, it is not as if it is politicians alone.

We have increasingly as the ANC not pleased with the President’s said that we acknowledge that well over the 2 000 global crisis and the global downturn has contributed to our economic stagnation. It is not easy. We accept responsibility for our own failures and goes to the public. And guess, what?
Despite everything the DA says, the opposition parties are unable to make headways not mentioning the DA. The same proven at us which they say would be below 50%. And the same service show that the DA is also going down even in the Western Cape which they claim a lot about it. So, they think so well how comfortable they cannot vote for them anymore. And what is it increasingly representing the white community. Even the called coloureds are there is the Western Cape. And we are saying to them look, you are in a bigger trouble than we are. And you know what, with a leader like little John as I call him, otherwise known as bolster and low substance, otherwise known as Mr John Steenhuisen is cultural and rational and torn there busy as it is. You have a scroll ball. I don’t know how this still ball housing chance. That’s the word expression of ever winning.

And you are in big trouble in the Western Cape too. If you do anything at all, you might slide through. You mean, you are your own President. So, what a chairperson or party leaders they have been happy now if you get slightly better than the results, they got in 2019. And look at the arrogance, Chairperson, about seeing Musi Maimane who otherwise has
skilled and sophisticated. You know, he was in trade unions. Isn’t it. He has experience. There are risk you want in that.

What is Mr Steenhuisen experience. Just words, words and words. No concreate answers. Lot of bluster, higher expedition the DA is going to do good. And I saw in Media 24, I think yesterday or a day before, you are not going to be happy if you get slightly better than in the 21%. In another words, the DA and other party leaders the one that regularly meet with Labuschagne 21,5%. And please, that multiparty charter of them is a no hoper even at Media 24 ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: ... [Inaudible.] ... 29 May. We have challenges but you have far more challenges. In fact, you are declining more faster than we are. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, on a point of order.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We shall now proceed to voting on the question. And I now call on heads of delegates by indicating vote in favour, abstain or ...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who is wishing to speak on a point of order.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, it’s me.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, Michalakis, what’s your point of order.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I did not want to interrupt the declaration of hon Carrim. However, I do have a question and is part of my point of order. That is: I do know that the hon Carrim is perhaps struggling from being demoted from Minister. But I don’t know when he was promoted to the Chief Whip of ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members? [Interjections.]


Mr G MCHALAKIS: You are not a Chief Whip of ... [Inaudible.]
... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members? [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members. [Interjections.] Hon members, order. [Interjections] Hon Michalakis was not rising on a point of order.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, I dint make my point of order. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, I rule that is not a point of order. Hon members, lets proceed.

In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, greetings to yourself and to all hon members. A petition to the National Council of Provinces from Ms Mary Raseale on a matter of the disappearance of the mortal remains of her son was referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice on 19 October 2023. The petitioner after exhausting all avenues, including liaising with departments and utilising the media to find her son’s remains approached Parliament for assistance.

The select committee invited the petitioner, Ms Mary Raseale, who was accompanied by her daughter, Ms Patricia Rakgekola, to meet with the committee on 29 November 2023. The petitioner was afforded an opportunity to address the committee and thereafter the departments, being the Department of Police and the provincial Department of Health, briefed the committee on the events leading up to the situation and the interventions in the place to resolve the matter.

The Raseale family reported that on 13 May 2022, SA Police Services informed Ms Raseale that they had found what they
presumed was the body of her son, Mr Gontse Raseale, in Rustenburg in the bushes. It appeared that he had committed suicide. The body was discovered in September 2021, the SA Police Service, SAPS, identified the body through his fingerprints and thereafter trace the family. The SAPS informed the family that standard procedure required the police to take deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA, samples from the family for testing to confirm if the deceased’s DNA matched that of the family. After Ms Raseale’s DNA tests were taken, they received no further feedback on the matter for months afterwards.

Through various inquiries, the SAPS eventually communicated with the family to inform them that the first DNA samples proved inconclusive. The SAPS took another DNA sample from the sister and informed the family that the results would be available in three months’ time. The family was also informed that the body was moved from the temporarily closed Rustenburg Phokeng mortuary to Brits mortuary. The brother, Mr Thabo Raseale, had initially physically identified the body in Rustenburg and again after the move to the Brits mortuary. The family made preparations for the burial of their deceased relative and when they were to fetch the body at Brits
mortuary, they found the body was missing. After the second round of DNA evidence, family again did not receive any results nor any further communication from the SAPS.

The family then approached community leaders as well as the media and still received no further information. The Department of Health had informed the family that 10 unidentified bodies were given a pauper’s burial and that they would exhume the bodies to find the mortal remains of their relative. Once again, communication to the family was lacking and the family, then through advice and assistance, drafted the petition to approach Parliament seeking an intervention.
The petitioner called for the intervention of the National Council of Provinces on the disappearance of her son.

The committee received briefings from the SA Police Services and provincial Department of Health on their interventions. The committee was informed that on 13 November 2023, SAPS and the Department of Health Forensic Pathologists took a decision that an exhumation or reburial should be conducted on bodies that were buried as paupers. The family was informed about the decision on the same day. The SAPS and the Department of Health also informed the family of the possibility that
another DNA test could be done after exhumation, to which they all agree. Therefore, a family member would assist with the reidentification of Mr Raseale’s mortal remains.

On 14 November 2023, the Rustenburg Magistrate Court advised that the Department of Health should apply for reburial as the mishap was on their side, and that the application had been done and handed to the Bojanala Municipality. On 16 November 2023, the SAPS arranged the DNA samples to be taken from the three siblings of the deceased. The SAPS has provided a letter to bury the mortal remains. These developments were communicated to the family. Documentation has been given to the municipality and once the permission was obtained then the department will provide further information to the family.

In terms of the committee’s discussions and observations, the committee expressed its unhappiness that the turnaround time of eight months highlighted certain deficiencies within the department and that this must be improved. The committee queried what steps would be put in place to improve communication, while the department acknowledged the lack of communication and apologised to the family. The department informed the committee that the necessary investigations and
corrective measures would be put in place to improve communication moving forward.

The committee further identified the nonadherence to administrative protocol within the provincial Department of Health with the temporary closure of the Phokeng mortuary and referral of the 10 unidentified bodies to the Brits government mortuary. The bodies were not registered. The member of executive council, MEC, committed to perform an investigation and this would determine the consequence management that must be implemented.

The committee noted that protocol and regulations were not adhered to and requested clarity on whether policies needed to be amended to rectify the situation. The MEC noted that part of the problem is that if the DNA test run by the SAPS returns inclusive, then SAPS withholds the body even though the family may have positively identified the remains through visual means. The provincial commissioner explained that once SAPS investigates the suicide, they call in the Department of Health Pathology Services to take possession of the body. From that point onwards, the Department of Health takes over and
conducts body identification at the mortuary. However, when it comes to DNA, the SAPS is tasked with collecting evidence.

The Deputy Minister for Health indicated that the Ministry would provide policy guidelines for all the provinces to prevent this matter from occurring in other provinces. The Deputy Minister noted that the Department of Health has a policy programme at national level where the Pathology Committee monitors each province.

The House should note that in terms of recommendations, way forward and commitments by the departments, the SAPS committed to finalising the exhumation and DNA evidence within seven days. The Department of Health is expected to cover the cost of exhumation and reburial of the disease as the family has already incurred costs related to this matter. The committee requested a report on the conclusion of the matter within 14 days of the date of committee engagement. The Department of Police and the Department of Health should review their policies and procedures going forward to resolve the issues highlighted with regard to the processing of DNA evidence and the returning of mortal remains to family members for burial.
The committee thank the family for bringing the matter to Parliament’s attention and reiterated the committee’s condolences to the family and the heartache and the breakdown of services to the family. The committee has expressed its unhappiness in terms of how the departments dealt with this matter and how the family was treated. I should also indicate to the House that the departments duly provided a progress report on this matter 14 days after the committee meeting.
Furthermore, we are pleased to also report that this matter has been concluded, we have been informed by the Raseale family on 5 February 2024, that they were happy that they had finally managed to bury their son’s remains. The committee report ... [Inaudible.] ... for consideration. I thank you.

Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Chair, greetings once again and greetings to all hon members. Hon Chairperson, the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill [B29-B2023] was referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice on 05 of December 2023. The committee reports that it has agreed to the Bill without proposed amendments. Hon Chairperson, the President established and Investigating Directorate in the Office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP by proclamation of No 20 of 2019 in terms of section 7(1) of the National Prosecuting Authority Act 1998.

The Investigating Directorate is required to investigate and prosecute serious high profile or complex commercial or corruption cases or cases involving offenses for unlawful activities arising from inter alia, The Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State. That is the State Capture or Zondo Commission. But in its current form, it is an entity created by proclamation and not a
permanent entity or unit within the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA.

The permanent entity will not be susceptible to a challenge on the basis that it permits undue political executive interference with the Investigating Directorate’s independence. The department... [Connection problems.] 07:04 to the committee further indicated that given that the Investigating Directorate in its current form is not a permanent entity or unit within the NPA, the independence of the Investigating Directorate can be compromised since government departments and institutions can, and in fact have threatened to recall reassigning cases from the Investigating Directorate. The National Prosecuting Authority Act ought to be amended to make provision for the permanent appointment of investigators and the required additional skills in the Investigating Directorate.

The Bill aims to bring about amendments to the National Prosecuting Authority Act of ... [Inaudible.] 07:30 to the establishment of the permanent entity within the Office of the NDPP. The envisage amendments, in short, entails the establishment of the Investigating Directorate against
corruption and the appointment of investigators, their remuneration, conditions of service and powers. The National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill supports the independence of the Investigating Directorate against corruption.

It seeks to amend the National Prosecuting Authority Act, to insert certain definitions, provides for the establishment of the Investigating Directorate against corruption, its powers and functions. The National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill provides for the appointment of investigators in the Investigating Directorate against corruption, the investigators’ remuneration and conditions of service of investigators, the establishment of a mechanism to deal with complaints of the serious nature pertaining to persons appointed or assigned to an Investigating Directorate, the powers and functions of investigators to provide for transitional arrangements and to provide for matters connected therewith.

Hon Chairperson, in response to the committee’s invitation for public comments, the committee received full submissions from the following organizations: AfriForum, Council for the Advancement of the South African Constitution, Casac, Transnet
and the Helen Suzman Foundation. Commentators and members of the committee requested that the NPA requires independent and meaningful reforms to address existing issues within the NPA. In this regard, the department indicated that a broader review of the legislation pertaining to the NPA will be conducted in the new administration. The NA has requested that such a Bill be tabled before the end of January 2025.

The committee emphasized the importance of this broader reform that is required to address the concerns raised in respect of the NPA’s independence. To this end, we encourage the department to conclude such a Bill timeously as it will serve to strengthen the important work of the NPA in ensuring that the public receives access to justice efficiently and effectively. The committee further encouraged the NPA to appoint capable, competent, skilful, qualified and knowledgeable investigators.

This Bill will, will indeed a long way, informally establishing the Investigating Directorate against corruption as an independent entity and that providing for the appointment of investigators to strengthen the fight against corruption. The Select Committee on Security and Justice,
having considered the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill referred to it on 05 of December 2023 classified as section 75 Bill, recommends that the Council pass the Bill and those amendments. I so move. I thank you Chair.

Declarations of vote:

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, the DA grudgingly supports this Bill for the small aspects in which it will bring improvements. However, we believe that it is not even close to being the answer to the problems of corruption or organised crime. It is constitutionally problematic because it does not fulfil the tier requirement of Glenister and the Constitutional Court. However, it is a small step towards improving the current situation regarding the appointments of the Investigating Directorate. However, much more needs to be done to ensure that we get the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, on track.

The DA tabled proposals for this in the portfolio committee and we were given the assurance that the Bill to address these concerns will be brought urgently. It should have happened a long time ago already. However, we support this Bill for what it’s worth. Thank you.
Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the proliferation of corruption in all sectors in the country are an indication of the failure of the institutions of justice and their inability to respond timeously, and ... [Inaudible.] ... stop of corruption and make those who are corrupt account for their ways.

One of the most ineffective institutions of criminal justice in the country ... [Inaudible.] ... authority. Which has not been able to successfully prosecute white collar crimes in particular. This Bill seeks to create an Investigating Directorate for corruption within the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and grant extensive investigative powers.

The EFF strongly opposes the piece-meal approach to the legislative reforms required at the NPA.

We believe that the proposed amendments are inadequate and do not address the fundamental issues at hand. The establishment of an Investigating Directorate against corruption as a permanent entity within the NPA raises serious concerns. The
... [Inaudible.] ... has the potential to use the powers of the police and create overlap and confusion investigation processes. This Bill does not go far ... [Inaudible.] ... the
NPA independence ... [Inaudible.] ... directorate against corruption.

We oppose the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill and asserts that the NPA should be made at Chapter 9 Institution to ensure its independence and effectiveness in conducting corruption. Any amendments to the Act should be carefully considered and thoroughly comprehensive in addressing these fundamental issues. The EFF rejects this, Bill. Thank you very much.

Ms B M BARTLETT: Chairperson, the African National Congress rises in support of the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill. In his 2018 State of the Nation Address, the President pledged to put a stop to corruption in public institutions. He announced that urgent attention will be paid to the governance issues at the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, to ensure that this critical institution is stabilised and able to discharge their mandate unhindered and without fear of favouritism and bias.

The leadership issues of the NPA were attended to, and the National Director of Public Prosecutions was appointed.
Keeping through to his promise shortly after the address in terms of section 84(1)(f) of the Constitution, the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture was established, investigating matters of public and national interests concerning allegations of state capture, corruption and fraud.

Chair, the terms of reference were concerned predominantly with the practices of executive members of the state and the nature of their relationships with private individuals. The commission has made a decisive contribution to establishing the extent of state capture, restoring confidence in public institutions and identifying those responsible for any misconduct. It must be noted that the ANC gave its full support the Commission of Inquiry. The commission has established that state capture has indeed occurred on a large scale in South Africa. And made recommendations that are now being implemented.

In 2019, the Directorate of Investigations into Corruption was established. In the 2023 State of the Nation Address, it was announced that the Directorate of Anti-Corruption Investigations will be a permanent feature of the anti-
corruption efforts. This step is aimed at ensuring the effective implementation of the Commission Recommendation on State Capture.

Hon Chairperson, the Directorate of Anti-Corruption Investigations, investigates corruption-related crimes uncovered by the Commission of South African Revenue Services and the Public Investigators Investigation Corporation. A prosecutor-led investigative model is the most effective way to prosecute crimes such as corruption, as international best practice shows. This Bill seeks to provide for the appointment of criminal investigators, anti-corruption investigation directors and investigators to ensure a large investigative capacity and capability.

Hon Chair, we have considered the urgency of the proposed amendment which are limited in scope and extended as an intermediate measure to enhance the capacity of Investigating Directorate pending the recommendations of the National Anti- Corruption Advisory Council.

Hon Chair, a balance is needed. We are of the view that there is a need for legislation which comprehensively addresses
aspects relating to the NPA’s independence. This Bill is a significant step towards enhancing the NPA’s independence and ability to prosecute the high-level crimes. Overall, this Bill is a crucial step in strengthening South Africa’s anti- corruption efforts and ensuring that those engaging corrupt practices are held accountable for their actions.

The ANC has long supported the Independent Investigating Directorate and Prosecuting Authority. We have been unequivocal about rooting out corruption. While there is some criticism levelled towards the Bill, this permanent structure is established by legislation and will enjoy legislative protection. We must stand united against corruption and embrace accountability, transparency and good governance. The African National Congress supports the Bill. Thank you very much.

Debated concluded.


Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Delegates, allow me at this point to thank all permanent and special delegates who are part of the proceedings and Salga representatives who have availed themselves for the sitting. That concludes the business of the day.

The Council adjourned at 15:41.