Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 12 Mar 2024


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary 



The Council met at 14:00.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, just to remind delegates that rules and processes apply for this hybrid sitting.

So, I would like to remind delegates of the rule relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular subrule 21, 22, 23 and rule 103 which provides as follows:

That the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of National Council of Provinces.
That delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

That for the purpose of the quorum, all delegates who are logged-on to the virtual platform shall be considered present.

That delegates must switch-on their videos if they want to speak.

That delegates should ensure that the microphones on their electronic devices are muted, and must always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak.

That all delegates in the chamber may connect to the virtual platform and must insert their cards to register on the chamber assist.

That delegates who are physically in the chamber must use the floor microphones.

That all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chartroom.
And that, in addition, to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active.

Permanent delegates, special delegates, SA Local Government Association, SALGA, representatives and members of the executive on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on their electronic devices are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. And that permanent delegates, special delegates, SALGA, representatives and members of the executive in the chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation services.

Hon delegates, I also wish to indicate that there will be no Notices of Motion and Motions Without Notice, in accordance with the Council Rule 229(1).

We will now proceed to the Questions session. But I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy President, hon Paul Mashatile.

Welcome all, permanent delegates, the MECs and all special delegates to the House.
Further, I would like to remind delegates that in terms of Rule 229 of the Council Rules, we should note the following: This is very, very important, hon members, because from time to time we tend to strain and not tip to what is expected of us.

Firstly, that the time for reply by the Deputy President to a question is five minutes.

That only four supplementary questions are allowed per question.

That a member who has asked the initial will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask a supplementary question.

And that the time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes.

That the time for reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. [Laughter.] Sometimes things tend to be very interesting and we tend to lose it.
And lastly, that the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.

I now call on the Deputy President to approach the podium.


Hon members, the first question which the Deputy President is going to give a response is a question on high unemployment rate among the youth. This question has been tabled by hon Ntsube and is directed to the Deputy President.


Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, let me start by wishing well all those celebrating, happy and blessed month of Ramadan. May it be a turning point for the people of Palestine and the oppressed throughout the world.

Hon Chairperson, in October 2020 Cabinet approved the National Youth Policy 2030, which is a cross sectoral policy intended to redress the injustices of the past and deal decisively with the new challenges affecting the youth.
As part of our commitment to reduce youth unemployment, the Minister of Finance has announced an additional R7,4 billion set aside for the Presidential Employment Initiative for 2024-25.

Thus far, the Presidential Employment Initiative has assisted 1,7 million people through a combination of job creation, job retention and income and skills support interventions.

Hon Chairperson, in addition to the South African Employment Service system, which serves over 7 million job seekers, provides nationwide platforms for youth to register for employment, match the employment opportunities and receive placement counselling.

Through public private partnership, government supports various internships, learnerships and apprenticeship programmes across various government departments to provide experiential learning and facilitate entry into the labour market for young people.
By supporting small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, government is playing a critical role in addressing South Africa’s youth unemployment crisis.

Government is also implementing Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act to promote small, medium and micro enterprises that are key to job creation and economic growth.

Chairperson, we must continue to strengthen multi-sectoral partnerships to increase opportunities that promote youth empowerment and participation in the labour market. We believe that together we can contribute to national efforts to create employment, particularly for young people.

In this regard we know that the President has initiated a number of programmes that will assist in supporting efforts for young people that is anchored around the National Youth Policy 2020 to 2030. They include amongst others, presidential youth employment intervention, national pathway management network, youth employment services, public employment services and also the support for those young people who want to go into businesses and become entrepreneurs through the business development support and also Amavulindlela of youth challenge.
And in this financial year the Minister of Finance has provided an additional budget R3,7 billion to support compensation of employees in the health sector, particularly for employment of nurses and medical doctors. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr I NTSUBE: Deputy President, let me also appreciate and welcome the profound and detailed response. It is quite welcoming when you consider the era which we came from, of COVID-19 and the unrest, I think the government is really making a progress, including ... you gave the stats of about over 1 million job opportunities that have been created and the capital that has been set aside to fund the youth opportunities.

Deputy President, I just want to benefit again that how will the government deal with the challenges to reduce unemployment amongst the youth graduates and the persons above 35 years of age? Thank you very much, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Ntsube, for your question. Let me reiterate once again that these initiatives particularly led from the Presidency, are very
beneficial to young people, including ... and the age that you refer to, below 35 years of age.

The South African Employed Services System records about
7 million job seekers, most of whom are young people who have now been assisted by platforms that have been created to assist them to access opportunities. But also, we do partnerships in this regard with the private sector where we support internships for young people, learnership in various fields like apprenticeship and other initiatives.

But particularly, our support is anchored mainly among young people who are involved in small, medium enterprises are the biggest beneficiaries of these programmes and we are going to continue to extend this support going forward. Thank you very much.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Mr Deputy President, one of the primary factors contributing to high youth unemployment in South Africa is the fact that many young people leave the schooling system with little or no skills, making them unemployable.
The practical solution to this problem is the inclusion of vocational artisan training within the existing school curriculum or alternatively to ensure that all learners that leave the schooling system early, that is the basic education system, are absorbed into Technical and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet colleges.

In reality, however, Mr Deputy President, your government has allowed millions of learners over the past 10 years to enter the marketplace without usable skills.

Mr Deputy President, you may remember a time when children who were out of school during school hours were encountered by truant officers who made sure they went back to school.

My question to you then today is: What will your office do to urgently implement vocational training in schools and also to enforce, by law, the principle that learners must be at school or Tvet colleges until they have obtained practical skills that will contribute to the economy of South Africa? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, in fact, we are doing exactly that. We are making sure that we resource Tvet colleges and a lot of young people now do go to Tvet colleges, which provide real skills for them.

Vocational training in schools. Yes, that’s something that we were discussing with the Minister of Basic Education, to ensure that children are provided skills at an early age. But we are now channelling a lot of them to Tvet colleges.

We know that in the past all the young people, particularly leaving high school, would prefer to go to universities and not Tvet colleges. But we are winning that battle now, to make sure that we redirect the youth to go to Tvet colleges to get hardcore skills and be able to be to be employed in industry.

So, yes, hon member, I think it’s very important that when young people leave schools, they leave with real hardcore skills so that they can be employed. Thank you very much for your question.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, let me apologize. I’m experiencing the loadshedding where I am now.
Deputy President, there has been very little progress with the unemployment rate. The sad reality which we have been faced with for the past 10 years is that your ... [Sound cut off]
... at addressing the matter have failed. The unemployment rate for young women has remained high and it has remained highest among the black people in general, in comparison with other demographics.

Does the Deputy President agree that this alone demonstrates the ruling party’s inability to invigorate the economy and create jobs? Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, one of our priorities as the governing party is, of course, stimulating economic growth. If you look at all our policy documents now, particularly our current manifesto, you’ll see that the issue of economic growth is top on the agenda because we accept the fact that unemployment is quite high, standing at around 32%, and young people are the mostly affected ones there. We know that there are almost more than 4 million young people who are unemployed.
So, we are prioritizing this issue because if the economy does not grow it’s going to be difficult for us to be able to deal with unemployment. So, there must be growth. But the growth that will be able to absorb jobs.

Secondly, I agree with you that the most of those who are affected are young women, in particular. So, as we particularly assist with skills, we also focusing a lot on young women as well.

But there are various other initiatives, other than what the national government is doing, we also see initiatives in various provinces. If you go to Gauteng the Premier of Gauteng started a programme called Nasi iSpani. And if you look at that programme, it’s really targeting the youth. They do employ adults as well, but in particular that programme is targeting young people and they offer them skills.

So, it’s not just jobs. I know that at the beginning some people are saying ‘no, you know, these are useless jobs’. But, in fact, a lot of those young people get good training as they are enlisted in that programme.
So, that’s something that we think should be considered in various other provinces. I know that in provinces like in the North West with the Thuntsha Lerole programme. A lot of the people who are involved, there are young people as well, that the Premier has brought on board to get involved in those service delivery initiatives.

So, we are supporting young people, particularly young women, to get the skills and we are prioritizing the issue of employment. Thank you very much.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy President, we can all agree that the high rate of unemployment amongst our youth is alarming and it’s creating a generation of citizens who are left feeling hopeless with the current government in place.

I would like to know: Whether the government has conducted an assessment of the effectiveness of the current efforts to address youth unemployment? The disjunction of skills alignment in the job market, and if so, what were the findings? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, we are as concerned as you about high levels of unemployment amongst the youth, as I said earlier.

I don’t have a report that I can give you the moment around any surveys that have been done. But as we work in various communities on the ground, we engage with a lot of young people, there are a lot of initiatives that are being directed by provincial governments and even in some instances municipalities as well, are beginning to implement programmes that train young people, but also creating opportunities.

But we have decided that we will drive a lot of these initiatives from the Presidency as well, through the programmes that I highlighted earlier; the Presidential Youth Employment initiatives and all those programmes. Because we believe that when young people are given opportunities, they are able to take up those opportunities. I mean, if you look at the Presidential Youth Employment initiative, more than 1,7 million young people have benefited through that platform.

So, we’re going to continue to push for those initiatives to ensure that we can deal with the high levels of unemployment.
Tackling unemployment, let me put it that way, is a big priority for us, particularly to ensure that young people don’t loiter around, but the opportunities are created for them. Thank you very much, hon members.

Question 2:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Labuschagne, thank you for your question. Hon Chairperson, after the 4th Human Resource Development Council Summit that was held in 2021, partners who are represented in the council comprising government, business sector, organised labour and civil society signed three social compacts. The compacts are aimed at strengthening relationships and positively impacting the human development value chain in the country.

The first social compact focuses on building the foundation for a transformed economy and society. The second compact focuses on skills for a transformed economy and society. And the third one relates to the building of a capable state and professionalisation of the public service.

Chairperson, the signing of these compacts demonstrates government and social partner collaboration to address skills
shortages in critical economic sectors. The social compacts prioritise digital skills for the 21st century, aligning them with global demands for the Fourth and Fifth Industrial Revolutions.

Hon Chairperson, the Department of Higher Education and Training established a National Skills Fund that prioritises employment creation interventions through the rollout of work integrated learning programmes designed to facilitate transition of graduates and technical vocational education as I said earlier and training colleges into labour markets preparing students to go into the labour markets.

This year R800 million has been set aside for the National Skills Funds to develop skills in the digital and technological sector through an innovative model that links payment for training for employment outcomes.

Moreover, the human resource development strategy that is towards 2030 recognises that education and skills in South Africa constitute the nerve centre of the country's economic growth and the national transformation goals as set out in the National Development Plan 2030.
The country’s reconceptualised Human Resource Development Strategy and Master Skills Plan, which is currently being developed, will give further impetus to our efforts of addressing skills shortages across all sectors of our economy.

Chairperson, last week on Friday the 8th of March, we held a Human Resource Development Council meeting which took the form of a retreat. We initially wanted to have more than two days, but because of other commitments, we condense everything into a day. This retreat is where we reflected on both achievements and challenges relating to the shortage of skills in critical sectors of the economy.

One of the critical observations of the council is that there's a need to improve the speed of policy execution across the state, but also bringing the private sector on board together with civil society to realise our global competitiveness. Chairperson, this initiative is going well, and all the social partners are participating. This retreat has come up with new recommendations that are going to take us forward. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you for the feedback, Deputy President. I will not go into the fact whether somebody fell asleep or not. But we, however, have here another tale of two cities, the positive picture that you just delivered by giving us the retreat and the plans for critical skills and all these things. Although I haven't heard any except the R800 million for the fund. But I haven't heard anything that has been definitely increased and became better.

And then the reality of something like the Auditor-General’s report that says 67% of municipalities are failing on many levels. The Zondo Commission's findings on corruption, state capture, failing state owned enterprises getting financial bail out year on year as well as load shedding, crime and the ever-increasing cost of living all of which are having a devastating impact on skills development.

So, Deputy President, what I would like to know from you is as the incumbent Chairman of the ANC's political deployment committee, how can you continue to deny that the practice of cadre deployment is the base course of service delivery failures caused by the shortage of skills, especially in critical sectors? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I didn't want to talk about cadre deployment today, but I can see the member is provoking me. Let me answer this way hon member Labuschagne. The Human Resource Development Council is real. It's not a joke. And in this committee, we have labour, we have business, we have civil society and ourselves as government and all of us are making sure that the issue of skills development for the country is a big priority.

I just indicated that we had a retreat this past week. In fact, there is a report that I will send through to the National Council of Provinces for members just to see the plans and the recommendations that came out of that retreat, where businesses involved, and labour and civil society organisations are involved. We are very clear that in the era where we are, we need to target the digital skills and new technologies so that we move with the times as the world changes. South Africa must not be left behind.

But if you want to know about the cadre development, I will make time for you to talk to you about that because it is such a brilliant programme that all parties in the world do it. If
the DA does not develop its cadres, then you are deploying people who are not fit for purpose.

We in the ANC make sure that if someone has to go and lead in any sector, they have their requisite skills to be able to do so. That's what cadre development is all about. So, we are not shy to talk about it, we are not embarrassed because a lot of the people who are in the public service today, top people have been trained by the ANC.

You can pick and choose and say oh here there's a problem in this municipality etc. But many of the people in the public service today, top people were trained by the ANC. Some of them were sent to best schools in Europe and America. That's cadre development. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before we continue, let me take this opportunity to announce that we have amongst us a visitor Dr Mustafa Barghouti, who's the Secretary-General and co- founder of the Palestinian National Initiative, PNI, also known as Al Mubadara, a physician by practice. He has been a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, the PLC since
2006, and is also a member of the Palestinian Central Council, the PCC.

In 2007, he served as Minister of Information in the Palestinian Unity Government. He ran for President in the 2005 presidential election, coming second after Mahmoud Abbas.
Barghouti has worked extensively on defending human rights and internal democracy.

Dr Mustafa is the founder and president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Society, PMRC since 1979. The PMRC has been successfully working in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and in Jerusalem. Since October the 7th, PMRC lost many of its team in the Gaza Strip and some of its infrastructure and buildings yet more volunteers continue to join the team. Welcome. Thank you. We will now proceed to the second supplementary question.

Mof M L MOSHODI: Modulasetulo, e re ke qale ka ho leboha Motlatsi wa Moporesidente. Motlatsi wa Moporesidente, ha ke dutse ke o mametse o araba potso ena e neng e botsitswe, o e arabile ka bokgabane bo boholo, empa bothata ba ke hore motho ya e botsitseng ha a tshwanetswe a etse tlatsetso, o bua ka
Komishene ya Zondo le ka mahatammoho. Empa, e re ke o lebohe Motlatsi wa Moporesidente hobane ha o a tshaba ho mo fa thuto ya mahala ya dipolotiki.

Modulasetulo, ntumelle ke botse Motlatsi wa Moporesidente potso ena.


Hon Deputy President, align skills development with labour market demand is a problem that impacts most developed and even developed economies. As the world changes and economic structure of a mode of productions transform, new skills set are required, Deputy president.

My question to you, hon Deputy President is, what skilling programmes have been developed through government employment and internship programmes and do these programmes complement the skills development strategy of the Human Resource Development Council of South Africa? I thank you Chairperson and hon Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ha ke lebohe mohlomphehi, kgaitsedi ya ka. Ke nnete hore ho na le mafapha a fuweng mosebetsi ona ...

... for instance, the Sector Education and Training Authority.


Ka mantswe a mang re di bitsa diSeta.


They do a lot of initiatives in learning programmes and in different fields. They also recognise prior learning and deal with internship. Some of them even offer bursaries to ensure that we don’t deal with the issue of skills gap. We also don't, ignore adults. So, adults’ education and training are also factored in ...

... hore re thuse batho ba baholo ho fumana bokgoni bona. Ha re shebe ba banyane feela ...

... because if we are to grow our economy, we need to ensure that many of our people have access to skills. South Africa is a developing country, and we have our own challenges, but the question of growing our skills and capabilities to ensure that we have a capable workforce is one of our priorities. Because if we do so, we'll be able to reduce the high level of unemployment because ...

Batho ba tla fumana mesebetsi ka lebaka la hore ba tla ba le bokgoni ba ho sebetsa mesebtsi eo, haholo hobane mesebetsi e metjha ya dithekenoloji e batla bokgoni.

So, we must train our people.



Ke ka hoo Human Resource Development Council eo ke e etellang pele, moo Moporesidente a ileng a nkopa hore ...


...you must share this council and bring all the social partners so that the issue of skills ...

... e be ntlha ya rona e kgolo ya bohlokwa. Ka hoo, ke a o leboha ka potso ya hore na re etsang ka hore re leke ho hudisa mananeo ana.


We must develop these programmes and ensure that we are able to reach out to many people. And by the way ...


... kgaitsedi, e sebetsa hantle ntho ena. Ke leboha ho menahane.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy President, since the establishment of the Human Resource Development Council, HRDC in 2010, considering salaries and general expenses as well as the cost of retreats held by the HRDC etc, what was the total cost to state for the HRDC and what are the achievements of the HRDC over the same period? And would you say that the cost is justified by the achievements of the HRDC and if not, why not? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member, I don't have the course readily available, but let me indicate how the HRDC works. It's a council that coordinates implementation of work, but work is done elsewhere. I’ll make an example. So, training is provided by schools, TVET colleges, universities, etc. So, what we do as the council, we identify priorities for the country and therefore get these institutions to prioritise those skills.

That's why you find Ministers of Basic Education and Higher Education in the HRDC that serve in that committee. They work with me because they are responsible for the implementation. So, the biggest budget spent is not spent by the council, the council is a coordinating body that will meet maybe four times a year to bring all the social partners together, but the programmes are in the various institutions.

In some instances, our programmes are also funded by the private sector itself and that's why we brought the private sector on board so that government does not do everything on its own but work with the other trade unions, civil society organisations and contribute in the running of the council.
It is not a big body that requires a lot of people and budgets because work is done by other government departments. The Minister of Labour also participates in the programme. It's a very important coordinating mechanism that must ensure that the entire government focuses on this issue.

And as I said earlier, it is doing very well. There was a time when there was lack of participation by businesses, but we have now corrected that, and all the social partners are on board. But if you want to know how much we spend, we'll get that for you. It will probably be expenses for tea that we drink when we meet and then maybe for a venue. It’s not a budget that anybody should worry about. Thank you very much, hon member.

Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, greetings to the Deputy President, distinguished guests, members farewell and goodbye. It was nice serving with you. Yes, we must say our farewells. It's only couple of months, lists are out. Sorry about that.

Deputy President, given the concentration of economic activities in central business district, CBDs, what steps has the Deputy President taken to decentralise economic
development and promote establishment of businesses and industries in underserved areas, particularly those areas with majority of black population residents? What initiative has the Deputy president taken to upgrade infrastructure in these areas as to create conducive environments for economic activities and skills development programmes? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I thought we normally do goodbyes when Parliament rises. I think the member is too much in a hurry to leave. But in any case, bye-bye, hon member. It was nice serving with you. We will be back here, and we hope they will bring you back as well from the EFF. Remember, it's time for lists now. You must check if you are on the list.

Let me say hon Chairperson that yes, one of the biggest ways of intervening in the economy to create jobs is through infrastructure. So, you're quite right and you’ll see that in other programmes that we are busy with, there's a big focus on infrastructure. So yes, it's skills development infrastructure and you need institutions to be able to carry these programmes.
I'm sure you must have heard that recently - I think a week ago, Minister Blade Nzimande announced the opening of two new universities, one in Ekurhuleni which is going to focus a lot on technology and skills. They will offer courses in that respect. So, these initiatives are continuing.

When we have engagements of the HRDC, we also visit institutions, we go to colleges, we have our meetings in those colleges, we look at how they are operating, what are the weaknesses, whether they need support in infrastructure and learning materials. And I must say, hon Chairperson, that whenever I visit these institutions, the Ministers also come because they must take responsibility if a college says we have a challenge with our classrooms, the Minister is there to follow up.

So, hon member, we are doing quite a lot and if you move around on the ground, you'll see that there's a lot of infrastructure investment that is happening on the ground to power our economy and create the much-needed employment that the country needs. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you hon Mamaregane for the question. Government is currently implementing improvement plans as part of its rapid response interventions to resolve the water crisis and the electricity disruptions that are taking place in various municipalities in the country through the service delivery war room - this is the war room that the President has set up, which I am chairing. We work with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and we co-ordinate with other government departments.

We have developed a number of improvement plans to implement this rapid response intervention, and you may have seen, hon members, the Minister of Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in many municipalities out there.
Yesterday she was in eThekwini and today she’s in the Free State. So, we go to these areas to be able to work with municipalities on the ground. One of the things that we have established under this war room is what we call the results management office. And then we introduce reforms in the municipal infrastructure grant particularly, and this one is to fund repairs and refurbishment and also renewal of infrastructure.
For instance, when we were in Knysna last Thursday, we found that one of the problems they have there to supply water is pump stations that needed to be repaired, and new pipes that needed to be set up. The hon Deputy Ministers who were there with me, the hon Parks Tau and David Mahlobo were able to tell the municipality on the spot that they can apply for funding to be able to do this work.

So, as we speak, the pump station has been repaired in Knysna, and they are pumping water upstream. So, when we say service delivery war room, we’re not talking about people just meeting in Pretoria. These are important interventions. We go on the ground. You know, when we were in Knysna, we got the report from the mayor when he was telling us about where the problems are. I immediately said to him that we should not take too long in a meeting because I wanted to go and see that place.
They were able to take us there and we were able to see for ourselves. What pleased me a lot is that as I arrived there, they were fixing the pipes. They were fixing the pump station and the service provider who was there said to me, “Deputy President, by this evening we will be pumping the water.” That is what service delivery intervention means. It is not staying in Pretoria and enjoying a nice cup of coffee. We go on the
ground. And I must say that it was very hot that day and we were walking in the sun, but we got things done. We got things fixed, and we are going to continue to do so. That is what we are going to continue to do. The premier was there, but he came to protest. He was not far from where I was. I asked the premier where he was and he said that the DA was protesting and they are fixing things.

There is a lot that we are doing, and we are going to continue to co-ordinate with the municipalities as well. We don’t go as government and fix things; we work with them. We are going to follow up and go back to Knysna, Jagersfontein and other places. Thank you very much.


Moh M L MAMAREGANE: Mohl Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Setšhaba la Diprofense, Ntate Amos Masondo, ke leboga mohl Motlatiamopresidente, Ntate Paul Mashatile. Go ya ka mokgwa woo o arabilego dipotiiio tia ka kamoka, o nkarabile gabotse. Ke a leboga.


Hon Deputy President, indeed, the importance of water
preservation cannot be overemphasised, given that we are a water-scarce country.

Kamoka re a tseba ka tlhobaboroko ya meetse, akere.


What emergency measures will be put in place to ensure that during load shedding or natural disasters such as lightning



... ke ra magadima ...


... water supply sources are not negatively affected.


Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.



MOTLATSAMOPORESITENTE: Ke a leboga, leloko le le tlotlegang, ka potso ya gago.

This is a very important question. Often, when there’s load shedding, the pump stations get affected. And as a result, they can pump water, because sometimes water need to be pumped upstream. So, you need the pump stations to work. One of the plans that we are busy with - working with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs as well as the Department of Water - is to co-ordinate our efforts to ensure that they also come with alternatives because in many areas we found that they use transformers to get this pump stations to work. So, we said to them that they can install renewable energy plants in some of these areas or municipalities can use what they call waste to energy initiatives. There is wind, solar - particularly rooftop solar as it is very important because in those areas when you don’t have electricity, the rooftop solar can kick in to ensure continuous supply. Once the pump stations continue to work uninterrupted, then you are able to supply water without the interruption.

We have also encouraged municipalities to look at other initiatives that will help them because we agree with you that it's important that we continue to supply water as much as we can. I know that in the long run, load shedding itself will be
sorted out and be a problem of the past. [Interjections.] In the long run! [Interjections.] You will be surprised, hon members, that we may resolve that problem as early as this year. Yes, you are going to be surprised. I won’t give you details now, but we are getting there. It’s going to be something of the past. But in the meantime, let’s bring these other renewable energy initiatives. It will help us a lot and it will also help municipalities.

We have agreed with Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that we will work with municipalities.
They will use what they call Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency to support municipalities. This include providing water and sanitation infrastructure. There is a grant that has been put aside, which is about R20 billion, and that is going to be used to support municipal infrastructure to ensure continuous support of services. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, we have heard the reports from various constituencies regarding the root cause of water disruptions in many areas, which has been attributed to sabotage where water lines are damaged for service providers to be called out at exorbitant
rates. Hon Deputy President, I would like to know how does the government plan to ensure accountability and transparency in its rapid response interventions, especially in dealing with public funds? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Hadebe, thank you very much for the question. Indeed, there is sabotage in some areas, but perhaps let me use this word maybe - an easier one – criminality. Let me put it that way. When I was in Knysna, and the service provider was busy there, I went into the pump station and one of the things he was doing was to put a burglar door and burglars on the window and he said to me that they are doing this because people come and steal the cables. So, we need to now put a burglar door because soon after we have fixed this, we may lose this through theft. That is why I am saying that in some instances it is criminality, which of course lead to sabotage. You know, people steal for various reasons. In that situation in Knysna, what they did in addition to the burglar doors and stuff like that, they also had a security guard house in their premises, and they fenced the perimeter of the pump station. It is quite costly, of course, in the long run to do this all over the place, but we probably have to do it so that we can secure this infrastructure which is critical
for the supply of services to our people.


Yes, hon Hadebe, in some instances is old infrastructure that creates problems. You would find that the pipes have been there for quite too long, and they need to be replaced. But in some instances, people steal cables and pipes. We have a big challenge to be able to ensure that we can protect this infrastructure. We have to and it can’t just be police. I think communities must work with government and the police. In some of the neighbourhoods there are neighbourhood watches and so on. Let’s work together to protect our infrastructure from criminals because it is them who create these problems that makes our systems not to work properly. People can’t get water and they can’t get the electricity because cables have been stolen. Thank you, hon Hadebe. We are going to work hard to try and ensure that we protect this infrastructure.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. And next is the third supplementary question from the hon Hlabangwane.

Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy President, South Africa is in this dire state of affairs when it comes to its water supply. The ruling party has drastically failed to perform the simplest duty of
ensuring that water and sanitation is supplied to our people. Across all provinces, we face infrastructural challenges as there exists a failure to maintain old infrastructures and corruption is plaguing new projects, as is the case with the Giyani project, Umzimvubu project and the Clanwilliam Dam project - just to name a few. What measures have you put in place to ensure that access to water and sanitation is not just its second concern, but an issue which is actually prioritised? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson and thank you hon Hlabangwane.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ooh, I thought you said Hlabangwane.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hlabangwane is not here. Lehihi took her question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ooh, my apology. Who is the hon?


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Lehihi. [Interjections.]



Mohl Lehihi, ke nnete hore bothata bo bongata ba metsi ke sebopeho sa metheo ya kgale. Fela, ha se bothata ba hobane ANC e a hloleha; ke bothata ba hore ha sebopeho sa metheo se le moo ...

... for a long time, it will definitely lead ...


Jwale, rona re le mmuso, ...


 ... we have noticed those problems. That is why when we got going around with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and I’ll continue to make example of the areas where I went to, whether it’s Jagersfontein and so on, you do find that the problem of old infrastructure is there. I always encourage the councillors. I said to them when I was Knysna that they should not wait until there’s a problem. And I gave them an example of the city of Johannesburg. I said to them,
when Parks Tau was the executive mayor of Johannesburg, in the area where I stay, in Kelvin, they started digging and replacing pipes. They did that before there is a problem. They were taking out the old pipes and putting the new ones, and I think the new ones are the plastic ones, which are more durable. So, I was telling them to do the same as the municipality and that they should not wait as they know how long the infrastructure has been there. They should do an assessment and replace and not wait until there is a problem. You are quite right that there is a problem that is also as a result of old infrastructure. My understanding, hon Lehihi, is that the Giyani project has been resolved some time ago.

Ha ke tsebe hore na o utlwile ho na le mathata na, empa ...



As far as I know, that problem was resolved. The problem there was reticulation. So, the dam water was sorted, but they had not connected pipes to the community. Umzimvubu is also in the process of implementation. It took many years, of course, but I think the Minister of Water and Sanitation indicated that they are now going to start with that project. I think one of
the things that the President should be commended on is to have a foresight to have a Minister just responsible for water. Perhaps many of us never thought it would be such a big problem. Today, because we have a Minister for Water and Sanitation, a lot of the challenges are being addressed, new dams are being built and reticulation is being sorted out. You can’t do it overnight, of course, but I think that was the best decision for the President to prioritise this area of work and have the Minister whose preoccupation is to deal with this challenge of water. And the Minister have been everywhere in all the provinces dealing with this issue. He has been to Vaal, eThekwini, and various places in KwaZulu-Natal. I was with him in Jagersfontein. He has been everywhere ensuring that indeed this is a priority.

Ke a leboha, mohl Modulasetulo.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy President. We will now proceed to the fourth supplementary question from the hon F B Smit.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Through you, hon Chairperson, as we sit here, I actually just saw a message from Mogalakwena. It says, “Please note that reservoirs have been closed due to low levels.” So, it is relevant, and they are lucky that they’re still getting water, other places don’t get water at all. Through you, Chairperson, will you as the Deputy President and as the ANC government take the responsibility for failing the people of Limpopo and South Africa in general. You failed to maintain electrical infrastructure. You also failed to ensure that all water and wastewater processing plants and pumping capacity have reliable backup generators or solar electricity capacity or even backup battery capacity to sustain these basic services during load shedding and electrical outages. Will this uncaring ANC government take responsibility for these human rights violations? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon member, we are a caring government. We are very caring. And you know why we are caring, we are making sure that these services reach everybody, unlike you guys during your time.
You are only serving white people. Yes. The apartheid regime only made sure that white people had electricity and the ANC
came in and said everybody must get it, and these things don’t come cheap. Some of our people are in deep rural areas today. There are electricity lines going there. There’s water going to those areas. The volumes have increased big time. I see that many people today are using the word “fail” because it’s election time. They are saying that the ANC is failing and they’ll do it better and we have done it before and we have failed - ourselves. You’ve failed the black people. You were governing the apartheid regime. Yes, you benefited, all of you. So, we came in. [Laughter.] Yes, but you are a beneficiary of that system. Yes, I am a beneficiary of a caring organisation - a caring organisation that came in and said that all people should benefit. Because you are young, you probably have read the Freedom Charter.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we have said over and over again in the past that there’s nothing wrong with heckling, as long as you make sure that the speaker is heard. Sometimes the temptation is very strong to make a dialogue with the Deputy President, but let’s try and avoid that. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. Let’s avoid the dialogue. I
was saying that I am sure that you have read the Freedom Charter which says that South Africa belongs to all who live in it - black and white. This is a commitment we made and we will live up to it. We will make sure that we get the resources to reach people everywhere and including deep rural areas. We will make sure that they get electricity and water. We are doing that and we are going to succeed, because we are committed to this project. Hon member, you may use the words, “We have failed,” but we know that we are succeeding. We are changing the lives of our people for the better. You must go out there and see the millions of houses that we have built. People are benefiting when under apartheid they did not get those resources. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Question 4:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, thank you to the hon De Bruyn for the question. The District Development Model, DDM, is in operation across the three spheres of government. Since assuming my responsibility as Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa in March 2023, I’ve been on the ground conducting several DDM-linked outreach visits to provinces specifically, to troubleshoot service delivery hotspots at the municipality level and implement interventions and come up
with measures that are in line with the District Development Model.

To this end I have conducted outreach programmes to different areas or different sites in the North West, Gauteng, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and in Mpumalanga. This included interaction with stakeholders that assist with the implementation of the District Development Model in their localities. By the way, honourable members, in the District Development Model we now include traditional leaders as well because in some of the areas traditional leaders are very key in service delivery. So, it is not just government at national level with province and local, but also business, traditional leaders, civil society and community organisations.

On 7 March President Cyril Ramaphosa led government interaction in the form of a District Development Model through what we call the Presidential Imbizo with communities and stakeholders. This last one which was the 12th one that the President did was in Nkangala District Municipality in Mpumalanga. This 12th imbizo was part of the ongoing interaction with communities and stakeholders aimed at enabling successful implementation of what we call One
District, One Plan District Development Model in line with the theme of leaving no one behind.

The residents, traditional leaders, Khoi and San leaders, business formation, organised labour and faith-based communities are also involved working with government. In fact, when I was in the Eastern Cape, faith-based leaders came to complain to say, we see that you are doing this District Development Model but we are not involved. So, we started inviting them as well.

In addition to the visits that I’ve been doing throughout the country, the President has also been doing the Presidential Imbizo and the 12th one was on the 7th. Our interactions with these other partners have assisted in identifying areas of best practice and those that need strengthening in the implementation of one plan for municipalities.

Collaborating with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, we are looking to ensure that the implementation of the District Development Model leads to strengthening partnerships with development partners and investors underpinned by longer term DDM vision and one plan.
Through the implementation of the DDM, the African National Congress-led government will continue to invest in our people and ensuring that local government delivers and provide basic services to all communities without fail. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, to the Deputy President, seeing that it meant to improve co-operation and co-ordination between different spheres of government, would you agree, Deputy president, that the District Development Model failed as a pilot project seeing as there is no co-operation and co- ordination between the spheres of government, especially if we are looking at what is happening in the Free State currently? Do you think this can be attributed to the fact that no consequence management was applied within the ANC to its municipal council members which led to an actual ... [Inaudible.] ... ANC-led government? Thank you, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, thank you very much to the hon member. Co-ordination will improve with time. In my experience, having been out there, is that people have bought into this model, and nobody is opposed. When we go out there,
in fact, in almost all the areas the Premiers will be there themselves with their MECs, the executive mayors with city managers and everybody, and we go out together and discuss these plans and ensure that we implement.

Remember that the reasons behind the DDM was to ensure that government can co-ordinate its implementation efforts because in the past you would find that maybe ... [Inaudible.]

Sound lost at 15:24

An HON MEMBER: Has the sound been expropriated?


Mr M S MOLETSANE: Load shedding in Parliament!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s back, yes, it’s back.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It was a technical glitch. I was saying that the reason behind the DDM was to ensure a co-ordinated implementation. So, hon member, you are quite right that co- ordination is very important and the DDM is meant to fix that in the long run. We have started and that is why we came up with the idea of one plan. National government has plans,
provincial government has plans and local government, which are the municipalities, also has plans, but at the end of the day you need to ensure that they dovetail together. You therefore co-ordinate that effort through the DDM where you bring all the players to be able to focus.

In the past you would find that maybe a Minister of Education comes and say that this community needs a school but there is no proper road going to the school. However, if the Minister of Roads and Transport is not there, that initiative never gets taken. If we combine our efforts and come up with one plan that here we build a school and we need a road, water and electricity, all those plans then unfold at the same time.
That is the District Development Model. It is a co-ordinated approach to implementation so that we don’t work in silos where one is going in one direction and the other in a different direction. We work together.

As I said earlier, everybody in the country has bought into this model as the best way for implementation. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Thank you, Deputy President. Good to see you in the House again. Deputy President, there are a lot of warm, woolly, fuzzy, happy feeling words here about the DDM, a lot of imbizos and breaking down silos and planning, but the fact is that, after spending a R100 million on the three pilot sites on 9 November 2022, Cogta itself revealed to Parliament that the return on investment has been negligeable.

In eThekwini, electricity, water, sanitation and refuse collection had collapsed under the ANC Mayor Kaunda’s stewardship and the ANC’s coalition partner, the EFF. Unprecedented water and electricity outages are a daily occurrence because of the neglected and failing infrastructure. There are sewer spills in rivers and on beaches, and to add insult to injury, the city’s customer fault reporting channels had completely collapsed.

The OR Tambo District Municipality is perceived by tender fraud, a lack of water and sanitation, service delivery, water and sanitation issues, roads infrastructure are collapsing, and it is all to the detriment of the poorest of the poor in that area. The Waterberg District Municipality is not doing much better with road infrastructure maintenance now being
delegated to provincial authorities. No one seems to be sure quite frankly what the role of the district municipality is at the moment in that area.

These are all examples of the DDM failures as none of the issues highlighted above have been addressed by the DDM. Is it not time, Deputy President, to acknowledge that the DDM is just another failed ANC programme that will end up on the growing pile of high rubbish dump of failed ANC policies?
Thank you.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, hon Badenhorst also used the word “fail” like it is a co-ordinated approach here. I do not read too much into to, but I hear it. There is no one who has asked me a question and didn’t use that word. Hon Badenhorst, we are on the ground. Whilst you are complaining we are on the ground. I just told you just now that the Minister of Cogta is in the Free State as we speak. Yesterday she was in KwaZulu-Natal eThekwini. We go on the ground to fix and not to complain.

This thing that you are dismissing about the Presidential imbizo ... you know when the President is on the ground there
interacting with communities in those meetings, sometimes 3000 people attend – 3000. This is not a joke. When you want to meet people you must go where they are and interact with them and see for yourself what is happening because you will be wiser to intervene if you work that way. So, do not dismiss the imbizos and the outreach programmes that we do.

However, I am not surprised because in the past the government used to rule only from Pretoria; they did not know where people live. They sat in Pretoria and made laws. Now we leave Pretoria and go to the people. That is what we do. We interact with them, check the programmes and the problems and challenges that they have and then we fix. No, we do not create challenges. Where people live there will always be challenges and the government must go where the people are and work with them. So, izimbizo is a very important way of ensuring that people participate.

I am not sure if you have heard about Ntirisano in Gauteng and Thuntsha Lerole in North West. It is a way of going out to communities and engage with them, work with them and look at the problems and intervene. That is why when the President asked me to lead the DDM he said go and intervene not go and
do research and assess. Intervene because intervention is solution oriented. You come with solutions and work with people. That is what we are doing. We are going to do that and DDM is succeeding as we speak. It is succeeding and it is turning around the situation. It is involving people, and everybody wants to be part of it, as I said, traditional leaders, church people and everybody is coming in. you will be left alone, hon Badenhorst; everybody is with the DDM. Thank you very much.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chair of the Council, to Ntate Mashatile, your government is failing. Your government is not providing any solutions to the problems of South Africans. Back in 1994, black majority gave you the mandate to go and change the lives of black people who were marginalised. They gave you the mandate to go and provide basic services at the level of local government. So, you are the same as the apartheid government. You are worse because black people gave you the mandate to change their lives.

As we speak, the sphere of local government has completely collapsed. A total of 128 municipalities were reported to be in financial distress in the year 2021. The number of
municipalities under distress increased to 168, with only 5% of those municipalities in stable conditions.

What solutions has the District Development Model provided in building internal state capacity so that state can improve the service delivery level of local, construct and maintain infrastructure such as roads, stormwater, railway, basic services such as schools and houses? Hospitals are a priority, but they have collapsed. What are your solutions based on the District Development Model? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: After the renting by the member, let me once again repeat that the District Development Model ensures that the three spheres of government work together and that is what we are doing. We are out there dealing with these issues as one government. Instead of working in silos we work together and co-ordinate. There is progress out there.

You know, there are many people who, these days, are beginning to say, you are worse than the apartheid government ... you are worse ... I don’t think they lived under apartheid these people. Maybe we can forgive you, hon member - maybe you were
young at the time. Ask us who lived under apartheid, and we will tell you that it is better today.

When I was a student in the 1970s and 80s, I used a candle to study because in Alexandra we had no electricity. In fact, it was called dark city. There are many of us who can tell you stories like that where people walked hundreds or 10 kilometres to school because you will have only one school in the village. Today, there are many schools in our communities, there are people who have houses now provided by the state, even in deep rural areas they have access to water.

Yes, when you supply services to thousands and millions of people you are going to have pressure, the infrastructure will have pressure and resources are going to be needed to deal with this huge backlog. So, we are doing our best through the District Development Model to co-ordinate.

If you go out there, there are lot of projects that are being implemented, particularly infrastructure projects. When I talk about programmes like Thuntsha Lerole maybe some members don’t understand what it means. It is a service delivery programme on the ground. They are fixing roads, clinics and schools. It
is a programme on the ground working with people; it is not just going around talking. So, hon Chairperson, we will continue to work as others continue to talk. Because they can only talk, we will continue to win. Thank you very much.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order, Chair. On a point of order, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order?


Ms M O MOKAUSE: I have asked Mr Mashatile a question and he continues to tell us a story. My question was: What solutions is the District Development Model providing and he continues to tell us ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... Chairperson, this shows the level of people you are deploying at this high office. He can’t even provide solutions. I have asked a question why is he not responding? Why is he not responding?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chair, I move that we should not allow to be abused in the House ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: You are not going to intimidate me on this platform! No one is going to intimidate me on this platform
... [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: ... where an hon member who was given a fair opportunity to raise a question wants to restate exactly the question she had raised. That should be ruled out of order ... [Interjections.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... if the Deputy President is incapable of answering questions, why is he here? Why is he here? [[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Point sustained. Hon members, please do not abuse points of order. We have tried in the past to reiterate and emphasise in clarifying what a point of order is. The point that the hon ... what’s her name again? [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Mokause ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ...hon Mokause is raising ... [Interjections.]
Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... because you are absent in the House you can’t even recall my name ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... is not a point of order. So, I will ask the Table to please switch off that mic if she continues. Thank you very much. We now proceed to the last supplementary question from hon Dodovu.

Mr M J MAGWALA: Point of order, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Magwala, yes, on what point are you rising?

Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, I am rising on your ruling which is wrong. This is a session of questions and answers. The member asked a question to the Deputy President but now you are not allowing the Deputy President to respond on that specific question that the member has ... That is why the member has called on a point of order because this is a session where we ask questions to the Deputy president, and if we feel that the Deputy President has not ... you raise a point of order. Again, Chairperson, you were wrong to allow
the Chief Whip to stand while you have recognised hon Mokause on the virtual platform which is wrong, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: like what you are doing now, hon Magwala. You are abusing a point of order to debate and try and contradict what has been said by others. Please do not do that. Hon Nyambi?

Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, the Rules of the House are very clear. It is so unfortunate that we are at the end of the term. A presiding officer, once has made a ruling, no one, not even a single member can challenge the authority and the ruling of the chair. Also, when the hon member was asking the question, she decided to be political and not even link it to the original question and we listened to that because we respect her. It is totally wrong for members to challenge the authority of the Chairperson unless you want to compromise the decorum of this House. I appeal to members that we respect the authority. If you are not happy about the ruling, there is a process and the Rules are very clear.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Nyambi. I am sure that clarifies the issue. We will move on to ... [Interjections.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: On a point of order, Chair! On a point of order! On a point of order! [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dodovu, please proceed. [Interjections.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: That does not clarify anything! Chairperson, it clearly shows the level of people you are deploying ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am asking the Table to please switch off that mic. Please proceed, hon Dodovu.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, to the Deputy President, last week we made an observation that these parties are so desperately looking for votes and in the process act like predators. That is what they are doing today as you respond to the questions - including the DA. The DA hates the DDM and does not implement
and apply it here in the Western Cape and this is a source of concern.

Deputy President, having heard your response to the importance of private sector involvement in working with the government for effective implementation of programmes as well as provision of basic services as illustrated in the example of Anglo Platinum in Limpopo and Sishen Mine in the Northern Cape, how will the government draw in more private sector participation and collaboration to ensure that social and economic development objectives of the DDM take place? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Dodovu, you are quite right and those are very good examples, the Sesheng Mine in the Northern Cape and the Anglo Platinum Mine in Limpopo actually provide funding for bulk infrastructure. You will recall that the President in his weekly news letter did indicate that there is phenomenal or remarkable progress with the implementation of the DDM because of the move to real partnerships where we no longer just believe in that government alone will be able to do this. The collaboration, for instance, ensures that we can
bring various other players that will help with implementation.

So, what we have agreed upon in implementing the DDM is to increase the partnerships similar to the ones that you spoke about. We have asked all provinces to begin to invest more in partnerships. I know that Gauteng has been working closely with the mining areas. It is happening in the North West where I was talking to the acting Premier there, Mr Maloyi, who indicated that they have a number of projects that they have now completed working with Sibanye the mining company and they focus in areas like Marikana where there were challenges, and they are now building new facilities.

We are going to work with provinces and help them to co- ordinate with the private sector to implement more of these initiatives. I know that even in Sekhukhune in Limpopo there are now new initiatives in that regard. It is a very important intervention where the District Development Model is not only reliant on government resources but bring in private sector resources. So, these similar projects you are going to see them increasing with time in the future in various provinces. We find that when we engage with the private sector, they are
very amiable in ensuring that they bring on board the resources that needed to rollout projects. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Question 5:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, government is accelerating land redistribution through a variety of instruments such as land restitution and expropriation of land in order to boost agricultural output. To this end, in the 2023 Budget Vote speech, the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure announced that 221 land parcels measuring about
148 000 hectares had been released from the department’s property portfolio to the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development for transfer to approved land claimants. Approximately 1,5 million hectares of land is also earmarked to be released before the end of this financial year. To further address the skewed patterns of landownership,
125 land parcels, measuring over 25 000 hectares of agricultural land, was also released to support subsistence farming and food security. This is in keeping with what we have been doing over the last 30 years.
Furthermore, the government is in the process of transferring state agricultural land, through a programme known as Financial Assistance Land, Fala, properties, where there has been compliance with the rent-to-buy agreements.

The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development is developing criteria for category 3 and commercial farmers as part of the roll-out plan for the release of state land. Category 3 includes medium to large- scale commercial farmers who have already been farming or intend to farm commercially at various scales but who are disadvantaged by location, size of land or resource constraints that are limiting their growth.

Under the land reform programme, the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure, as the custodian of national state- owned land, receives requests from various departments, recently from the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, to release land to settle land claims for restitution and also for agricultural purposes.

As government, we will prioritise the provision of extension and technical support as we have realised that in some
instances we have huge delays because of a lack of technical support. So, we are going to provide this, particularly through the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, to be able to provide, support and ensure that we can then distribute properties that are productive because this will then also contribute to South Africa’s food security. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr F J BADENHORST: Deputy President, thank you for that answer. However, I would specifically like to know — you know it’s election time now so I’m going to give you a platform to do nice electioneering now — how much more agricultural land do you as the Deputy President in that portfolio plan to transfer to farmers and communities that are in need of this and what is the timeframe of that, and if I may ask you, can you also please just elaborate a little bit on the technical support that you’ve just spoken about? You’ve mentioned technical support, so can you just elaborate on what type of technical support you are providing to those farmers? Thank you, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The amount of land that still has to be distributed will obviously be elaborated on by the Minister.
However, we of course want to make sure that we can reach out to as many people as possible. I’m going to have a meeting on the 26th of March with the National House of Traditional Leaders because there is also a challenge when it comes to land that is under amakhosi. So, in our meeting one of the things we are going to discuss is how do we work together to deal with this question. You would know for instance that in KwaZulu Natal we have the Ingonyama Trust that owns most of the land but in other areas amakhosi are also quite involved in ensuring that land is equitably used by people in those areas where they are.

In terms of technical support, there are a lot of things that need to be done when you transfer land. You know that in rural areas some of our people are not quite skilled, so they need to be assisted. When you deal with appropriations, there are many legalities when it comes to the transfer of land and whatever is needed. So, the Department of Agriculture then provides whatever support people would require in that particular area to be able to be assisted. However, the idea is that when people need land for agriculture we need to make sure that they are able to access that, while others may need land for other purposes. Yet, the main thing that we want to
do now is to accelerate the programme because we know that there are many people who are saying, look, it’s 30 years now. Please, we want the land. We are going to make sure that we assist to accelerate these programmes. So, the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development is actually leading this process and I’m sure that we will be able to accelerate the programme. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.


Nk L C BEBEE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu ngibingelele nakuwena Sekela Mongameli ngokuthi ngikwazi namhlanje ngibhekane nawe ngale mibuzo. Kepha umuntu akaqale ahlakulele umbuzo wakhe ngokusho ukuthi uKhongolose ukhathazekile kakhulu ngezimo zabasebenzi basemapulazini, nangezimo abaphila phansi kwazo ngokuthi bahlukumezekile ngokunjalo namalungelo abo abukelwa phansi. Kuphinde bangabi nawo namalungelo wokuthi bakwazi ukuthi batshale kulo mhlaba futhi ngokunjalo nokuthi bangcwabe.

Siphinde futhi sibe naleli Bhangi Lomhlaba [Land Bank] elingakaze limsize umuntu omnyama. Ngesikhathi sobandlululo elalisiza kuphela abantu abamhlophe. Ngakho ke uthe
uKhongolose uma esengena wakwazi ukuthi kungeneleleke, sakwazi ukuthi abantu abamnyama nabalimi bethu bathole usizo kulona.
Umbuzo wami la uthi:



What is the extent of the linkage of the Land Release Programme with the Land Bank, the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development’s support programmes and other sister departments that consume agricultural products such as schools, health facilities, prisons and other state institutions? Thank you very much.


SEKELA MONGAMELI: Ngibonge Mama umbuzo omuhle, ngibonge noSihlalo. Lezi khungo njengo-Land Bank siwabiza ngokuthi ngama-Development Finance Institution okusho ukuthi kumele asize abantu ...


... and I agree with you that in the past some of them ...

... ebengasizi ikakhulukazi abantu abamnyama ezindaweni zasemakhaya abafuna ukulima nabafuna ukuhlala njalo njalo. Njengombuso omusha siyaqinisekisa ukuthi leli Bhange Lomhlaba lisebenze neMinyango kahulumeni ukuthi basekele abantu abafuna ukulima nabafuna ukuba ngabalimi.

So, it’s something that we are doing now.


Kukhona izinto ezibizwa ngokuthi i-Blended Finance Scheme izimali ezikhona ezisizayo ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukungena babe ngabalimi nabo, balime bathole usizo kwiBhange Lomhlaba lethu.


So, we are doing that now. We are making sure that people can access funding so as to be able to participate meaningfully because ...

 ... uma ungenayo imali ngeke ukwazi ukuthi uyolima ube ngumlimi oqotho. Kufuneka ukuthi imali ibe khona.

So, it’s something very important. The Land Bank must be accessible and provide loans to those who want to be in this sector, particularly those who were disadvantaged for many years and who did not receive credit extensions and so on. We are now ensuring that the Land Bank is making sure that they are enabled to also be able to purchase ...

 ... lamapulazi ngoba abanye kufuneka bawathenge abakabi nawo. Ngakho ke kumele bathole imali ukuze bathenge lamapulazi.
Baphinde futhi bathenge nezinto zokulima ...


... so that they can be successful farmers.



Ngiyabonga mama.


Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy President, the government’s land reform project has been at best underwhelming in that land that has been turned over to people has been given without the
required support or training in order to ensure productivity of the land. I would like to know whether there are specific mechanisms in place to provide ongoing support and training for start-up farmers who receive transferred agricultural land. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Hadebe, one of the biggest challenges for this programme where there is land redistribution and restitution has in fact always been the problem of support. There have been instances in other provinces where communities receive land and it went to waste because they had no support to till the land. That’s why we are now focusing more on ensuring that people who have access to land are assisted.

You are quite right. It’s not just throwing money at the problem because if you want to be a good farmer you had better know how to manage a business because it is a business. So, training becomes one such support where people get trained not only to run a business but also how to farm properly because farming needs skills.

Awumane nje uvuke uthi uyotshala laphaya.



You need to know how to do it, or if you are farming with cattle or sheep you must understand them, what they eat, when they must eat and what they do. All these things are ... the support that we provide to emerging farmers. So, its not just access to funding but also the knowledge of farming properly.

We can have many farmers out there but if they are not properly trained they won’t be able to farm successfully. However, I think the biggest challenge to us has been the fact that land, which is provided to communities and where nothing is happening, lays wasted, while some people for whom land was previously bought, come and buy the land back again. So, you are almost working in reverse. We are aware of all of this and are ensuring that we intervene with all these support initiatives that we are now embarking on, like blended finance schemes, training and so on. Thank you very much, hon member.

Mr M J MAGWALA: Deputy President, the majority of fertile and arable land still belongs in the hands of a few white people. The EFF has on many occasions here in this House and on other
platforms argued that it is only the radical transformation of land use which will lead to spatial planning and transformation, food security and the reconstruction of South Africa’s economy into a more equal society. To date, there is no evidence that the team led by the Deputy President has led to any change in government’s understanding of land hunger amongst our people.

Given the complexity of land reform and the diverse needs of different communities, which measures have been put in place to ensure that the allocation of state-owned agricultural land aligns with socioeconomic realities and the aspirations of the beneficiaries, particularly historically marginalised groups? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Magwala, I mentioned earlier in my answer that there are various portions of land that are being transferred by various departments, particularly the department that is the custodian of government land which is Public Works, that releases land from time to time for many purposes, but for agricultural purposes in particular the land obviously goes to the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. So, it is happening. We may have moved
a bit slowly in the past but we are now pushing faster by ensuring that there are all these packages of support that we have put together, like the blended support scheme.

If for instance, you look at the Proactive Land Acquisition Strategy, some of the reports that are available will indicate that more than 5 000 properties have been transferred, to the value of about R12 billion. That is just one example. As we speak, there are a number of them that are being transferred to people and we are going to increase these numbers. A total of 65 000 hectares has just been transferred through that programme I spoke about called Fala.

So, there are a number of programmes that are unfolding. We can’t mention all of them now. My programme that I work on is to work with the relevant Ministers who are involved in this work. So, as the Presidency we don’t have our own programme of distributing land. We work with the departments that have been given that work and I think the current Ministers who are dealing with these programmes now are pushing very hard to ensure that we sort out the obstacles and move a bit faster, so ...

 ... lungu elihloniphekile uMagwala uzobona ukuthi kuyasetshenzwa manje.


It is not for elections. I heard you saying ... talking about elections. We are working. Whether there is an election or not, the people must benefit. That is what we must do ... [Inaudible.] ... Hon Magwala ...

... ngikuphendulile na?


Mnu MAGWALA: Yebo.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, he’s happy.


Question 6:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, let me first say that we as South Africa do not regret that we were the first to file a lawsuit against the State of Israel and the International Court of Justice in The Hague to force the Israeli government
to end the deadly and relentless genocide and bombardment of Gaza. The United Nations Humanitarian Agency estimates that more than 30 000 Palestinians, including over 10 000 children,
have been killed. More than 70 000 were injured, while 10 000 are missing and lie under the rubble. This currently puts the number of civilian casualties at well over 110 000, or around 5% of Gaza ‘s 2,3 million population.

Hon Chairperson, we will not condone genocide. Similarly, I must reiterate South Africa’s condemnation of Hamas for the indiscriminate and wanting violence meted against civilians. We are mindful that not every citizen supports our government’s decision to refer the Gaza bombardment to the International Court of Justice. We are also aware that some here at home and abroad started off by opposing our position. However, we are glad that they too have now revised their views taking into consideration the number of deaths and the extent of human suffering. We also know that there are some for whom support for the State of Israel is an ideological, in some cases a religious matter. They will never be swayed, no matter what facts and convincing arguments we have. They are, frankly speaking, some whose idea of human pain is coloured by the pigmentation of the perpetrator or the victim. Others are
not the least bit interested in what happens beyond our borders and would prefer that we become an insular society, even if the world shrinks into a village. However, the ANC-led government will continue to engage every sector of our society, especially on matters that are contentious.

Hon Chairperson, our country is committed to the promotion of social cohesion, which does not mean the absence of difference, but the promotion of consensus. And evolution of a practical programme of action for progressive social change.
It is in the context of Ubuntu and the building of a better Africa and the world that we remain committed to promoting the Bill of Rights which enshrines the right of all our people in our country and affirm the democratic value. And dignity, equality, and freedom.

We will continue to pledge our solidarity with the people of Palestine in their struggle to end all acts of apartheid system by Israeli government and the genocide emanating from that evil system and supporting their collective rights to self-determination. As President Nelson Mandela emphasised, when he said, and I quote:
Our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of Palestinians.

Indeed, we will continue to move on this road of Ubuntu, which means “I am because you are.” We support the people of Palestine from the river to the sea. Thank you.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Deputy President, the destruction and cancellation of funding for the United Nations Organisation for Human Rights and Welfare in Palestine and the Diaspora has a specific purpose. That purpose is to deny the right of return to those who were displaced in 1948 and beyond. I think we should share our own experience with the Freedom Charter, which says that “South Africa belongs to all who live in it.” So that all people who live in that area can actually return to that particular area and not just a particular sect or person has a right to return, and that the law of alia should not only apply to a sect of people.

Furthermore, there seems to be an inadequate appreciation or comprehension among some in our society about the foreign policy principles and objectives of our Republic. At worse,
there are those who, intentionally or unintentionally distort or undermine our foreign policy stance internationally. How will the government ensure that there is a general awareness and understanding of our foreign policy principles and objectives, as well as creating a dialogue amongst political and non-political actors on matters of international politics to entrench, a common understanding of our foreign policy objectives?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Dangor, I cannot agree with you more about the need for engagement. Our foreign policy is really deeply rooted in our democratic system of government and our democratic Constitution, which espouses justice and human rights. And the Palestinians must not be denied their rights. As we have ourselves for many years fought for our right, we support them to not be denied their rights, they must be able to exist side by side with the State of Israel in Palestine.
They must have the rights of occupation in their state. You cannot have the occupiers having more rights than the people who own the land. And I agree with you that it is sometimes our people do not support our position because they do not understand it. Therefore, it is up to us to engage and to make sure that we educate people about our own foreign policy, our
Constitution, so that they understand why we take the positions we take. Particularly, to support other oppressed people in the different nations.

We will continue to support the people of Palestine. And we must make sure that our people here in South Africa understand that they must be part of this movement in the world. The whole world has praised South Africa for going to the International Court of Justice. When other heads of state in the world were hesitant and shaking, President Ramaphosa stood firm and said that we cannot allow injustice. We must stand up and support. I would like to echo Minister Naledi Pandor’s words recently when she said, and I quote:

South Africa has a moral responsibility to always stand with the oppressed because we come from a history of struggle. A history of striving for freedom. A history of believing that everybody deserves human dignity, justice, and freedom. And this is the only reason that we have taken this major step as South Africa.
That is the way to go, hon Dangor. And we have to educate others. We must take our people along in this just course, Thank you very much.

Ms T L HLABANGWANI: Hon Chairperson, and hon members, greetings. Deputy President, last year the EFF marched to the Israeli embassy. We called for a boycott of companies linked to Israel and the EFF successfully tabled a motion in the National Assembly to close the Israeli embassy in South Africa. The EFF now wants to know why the Israeli embassy was not closed despite the EFF motion being passed by Parliament to close the embassy and despite the temporary withdrawal of the Israeli ambassador ... [Inaudible.] Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Hlabangwane, we are together in this journey. I am sure everybody in this House agrees that we have to support those who are oppressed, those that violence is meted against. It may well be that this organisation at some point will use different methods in this fight, but the course and the journey is the same. We have also matched before, I am sure you know that, and we have protested. The President has recalled our ambassador. So, there are various methods that we
use to show our support, also to protest, but to show that we condemn what is happening in Gaza. If you have taken a decision that you want to march? We will not be opposed to that.

But the question of closure and the message, the matter was dealt with on a different level. We were also concerned that we did not want to exclude ourselves, because we want to help the people of Palestine. That is why we kept our embassy open, because if we had closed their embassy and chased them out, they would have closed ours too. And they would not have been able to intervene in that part of the world as we do to ensure that humanitarian aid is delivered, but never doubt our commitment. We stand together to support the people of Palestine. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy President, with reference to the heading of the question, which is the genocide case against Israel and the fact that you have on numerous occasions during one of the sittings, stressed the fact that you are standing with the people of Palestine. We must remember that this topic deals with military action between two groups, Hamas, the people of Palestine and Israel. And it is no secret that the
ANC is in support of Hamas and is assisting them in their fight against Israel. Deputy president, have the South African government provided any assistance to Hamas and the people of Palestine in a direct or indirect manner in the form of military equipment or financial aid that could have been used, to purchase military equipment in the so-called defence they against Israel? If you can, please provide information on that. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, apologise, I did not hear the last part of the question, can the hon member repeat it?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Du Toit can you repeat the last part of your question.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy President, I want to know if the South African Government have provided any assistance to Hamas on the people of Palestine in a direct or indirect in the form of military equipment or financial aid that could have been used to purchase military equipment in the so-called defence against Israel. If you can please provide information on that. Thank you, deputy president.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now I have heard properly, and the answer is no. We have a way as a country in dealing with the issue of arms and how we sell arms etcetera, and no such thing was done. We took a view that the intervention must be at the multilateral level. But. Even with aid, we work with the United Nations, UN, and other bodies to ensure that the people have access to water, food, etcetera. We do not provide arms to anybody.

In fact, you would recall that earlier when I was answering, I said. We did condemn. The indiscriminate killing of women and children by Hamas, Israelis. We do not condone that. So, we do not supply weapons. We are working with others to provide humanitarian aid to the people who are in this situation, especially in Gaza and in the areas where they desperately need food, water and so on, but not weapons. We are for peace. We support peace initiatives. We have said this in Ukraine, and we have said this in various countries on the African continent, in the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, that a conflict should be resolved through negotiations by peaceful means, South Africa will not support violence. We want peace, and the sooner the warring parties come to the negotiating table, the better. That is what we support. And we will do the
same in Palestine. We want the killing to stop, we want the genocide to stop, and we want the Palestinians to get their rights, and that can be achieved through negotiations like we did with our own liberation. There was a time when President Mandela said, “It is time to negotiate. Let us talk.” And this is a success story that everybody in the world says South Africa did so well, they sat down around the table and negotiated, and we stopped the bloodshed. It can be stopped in other parts of the world, and it can be stopped in Palestine. Thank you very much.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, a survey conducted in February this year by the Women’s Action Campaign, South Africa, found that one in four South Africans believe that rape in war can sometimes be justified. This is not normal, and this is not okay. On March 4, the United Nations released a report stating that there are reasonable grounds to believe that hostages in Gaza were raped and sexually tortured by Hamas fighters. Your government’s silence on this issue was deafening until a few moments ago when you condemned Hamas. Will the South African government exert the same pressure on Hamas when it comes to rape and sexual violence or sexual torture of Israeli women or all
other women, based on moral principles of international law, and in what form will this pressure take?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I will condemn rape and violence against women everywhere in the world. Whether in America or in Russia or in South Africa, it is unjustifiable. So, if it is true that this has happened, then it is unjustifiable. But where parties are at war and fighting their battles, sometimes people use stories and propaganda against each other. But let us all agree as South Africans that violence against women and children is unjustifiable. It must be condemned no matter what. Thank you very much.

As Deputy President leaves the podium, back to his seat, allow me to thank him for making himself available. And to answer the questions that have been asked here today. Thank you for your participation, Deputy President. That concludes today’s proceedings. The Council is Adjourned.

The Council adjourned at 16: 34.



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