Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 28 Feb 2024


No summary available.


Watch video here: Plenary 


The House met at 15:00.


House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, all our Ministers are here but two, will be on virtual platform. That is the hon Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, and the hon Minister in the Presidency. But their Deputy Ministers are here in case they have a problem on the virtual platform.

Having said that hon members, the only item on today’s order paper is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster One;
Peace and Security. There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on.

Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognized by the presiding officer in allocating opportunities for supplementary questions. The principle of fairness, among others has been applied.

If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party whip on duty will be allowed to ask the questions on behalf of their members. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Hon members, the first question has been asked by the hon Masuku to the Minister of Police. That is question number three. May I now recognize the hon the Minister.


Question 3:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, House Chair Operation Shanela, which was launched on the 8th ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Cele, Minister, you are at liberty to come and use the podium unlike for you to
... if you feel comfortable, you are not forced. But you can come and use the ... and then you’ll sit down and so on, until the four questions are done. That is better for us all. Thank you, hon Minister, for your understanding. We start afresh.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much House Chair, Operation Shanela which was launched on the 8th May 2023, through weekly targeted high-density operations, has led to the SA Police Service and its partners, effecting a substantial number of arrests in respect of various types of violent crimes, including armed robbery, rape and murder, and seizure of various items including firearms and ammunition, illegal drugs, stolen and robbed vehicles.
Major drug busts were executed at several ports of entry, and clandestine drug laboratories were located and dismantled. The high-density operations have increased police visibility in communities and have therefore also served as a deterrent to crime. And indicated during occasion of the release of the third quarter crime statistics for the financial year 2023-24.

It is clear through the number of arrests made, that Operation Shanela is making its mark and putting dent in serious, violent, and organized crime.

Operation Shanela supplements other operations, hence it is labour intensive, and you put more resources and cost in intensive and difficult ... though is costly, intensive, and difficult to sustain in terms of resources, we continue to use the limited resources to implement and take it forward to protect South Africans. Thanks.


Mr M B MASUKU: Asibonge imphendvulo lejulile Ndvuna, siyetsemba kutsi bakuvile bahlali, emakhomanisi, nabomkantjubovu bembutfo labatsi bafuna kusebenta nemaphoyisa, kubambisana nawo kwekutsi kukhishwe imigulukudvu emphakatsini.
Ndvuna, mina umbuto wami kuphela nje ngifuna kwati kutsi njengobe besibuke kakhulu etindzaweni letiphitsitelako, lapha emadolobheni, tsina ngale kabhunyalutfuli nitawufika nini, emakhaya nasemaplazini, lapha bantfu bahlupheka khona, lapho kulahleka imfuyo nayo yonkhe intfo. Siyabonga.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, Operation Shanela was launched on a full understanding of the analysis of the crime pattens in the country, including those areas you talk about in the rural areas. If you look at your crime stats for last reporting period conservatively, we have reduced the stock theft in the rural areas and in the farms. Which tells you the story then that the analysis and the response of the police in those particular areas is beginning to be effective.

But as you say the study tells us that the high level of crime in the Republic of South Africa starts on Thursday until Monday morning and around shebeens and those entertainment areas, so the concentration is on those days. But the concentration also around those areas of entertainment, especial alcohol.
You can’t believe that is only 31% of South Africans that are drinking alcohol, but they behave like they are 100%. So, if we can deal ... that statistic is that according to the World Health Organization, that is only 31%. And those people, they cause almost 80% of crimes in South Africa. So, if we can deal with those illegal shebeens and legal shebeens but not sticking to the law, life could be better. So, this operation is part of that. Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Macpherson


Mr D W MACPHERSON: House Chairperson, on a point of order: House Chair, if I can just bring to your attention that the translation services aren’t operational.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Presently, they had already raised it with the secretary. They are looking into it. So, thank you for that advice. May we now proceed as they are working on it, to the honourable Terblanche.

M.Gen O S TERBLANCHE: House Chairperson, last year the Minister reported that during the second quarter of the 2023-24 financial year, first July to 30 September, 75 people were murdered in South Africa each day. Now, he claims for phenomenal successes since the implementation of Operation Shanela. However, the 23-24 third quarter crime stats released by the Minister on 16 February, 1st of October to 31st of December suggest otherwise. The reality is that SA Police Service, SAPS reported that 7710 people were murdered in the span of three months.

Do you agree, Minister, that you failed the President’s commitment he made in 2019, state of the nation address to half violent crime over the next decade? Almost all categories of crime are moving in the opposite direction in the five years since the promise was made. Thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well since we are a former police officer yourself. And I will tell you about the disaster in action. Since you were a police officer yourself, in South Africa, crime statistics, by the way, they started in 94, there were no crime statistics before ... the new dispensation
... yes there not. Kohler don’t say so, I grew up in the Township. We used to pick up dead bodies every day in the Township where I grew up. The only thing you did not know, hon Kohler... [Interjection.]
M.Gen O S TERBLANCHE: House Chairperson, on a point of order.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... the only thing we did not know about it because it was never reported. The murder of a black person in South Africa was never reported before 94. So, this thing of crime stat is something new.

So, you can’t measure ... for instance, the first statistics that were released, the very first, there were 34 000 murders. That was first in 95, 34 000. And indeed, we have gone down until 2011-2012 where we came to 15 000. Unfortunately, from 2012 going up, we picked up and all that, but we believe with Operation Shanela, we’ve reached the plateau, and we are beginning to go down.

I fully agree with you those numbers of people that are murdered in South Africa are highly unacceptable. That’s why we’re putting more resources. That’s why we’re training more police. That’s why we’re putting more equipment. But that's why we're putting more hours and more effort. We have reached the plateau from this plateau. But remember, it’s a new thing. It was never known how black people died before 94. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Faber, you had your hand up.

Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, just on a point of order: The hon Minister, number one, cannot speak to our members directly, can speak through you. Secondly, he cannot call Kohler. He can say hon Kohler Barnard if he was speaking about her, please, if you can just refrain, it will be fine.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I agreed. We proceed.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, the success of this operation depends on the availability of the tools of trade. Including, but not limited to, the contributing factors to this
high-level crime. And I’m glad that you’ve just raised the issue of alcohol. It’s something we hear every province that we visit.

Now, what collaboration exists between the department and local government, who are providing these licenses for liquor outlets 24 hours despite the liquor board restricting it two o’clock? Which is contributing to the higher levels of crime and very importantly, many stations are complaining they have
lack of resources, particularly vehicles that are lying in garages for up to a year. How are you dealing with this to ensure they have all the tools of trade to combat crime? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks very much House Chair, hon Kohler Barnard. House Chairperson, the biggest tools of trade in policing in the whole Republic and in the whole world are warm bodies. It doesn’t matter what you buy. It doesn’t matter what you do if you don’t have warm bodies, you are not going to do policing. For some reason, it happened that in the year 2010 we had 195 000 members of the SA Police Service, with 50 million South Africans, now we have 62 million South Africans with 187 000, 20 000 down from 2010.

Thanks to the President and the Treasurer who are giving us some resources to correct that. It is on that score that before last year, we trained 10 000 young South Africans to be members of the SA Police Service. Last year we trained another 10 000. This year we’re training another 10 000. That will give us almost the figures of 2010 rather than of 2024. If you don’t have human beings to do the work because this work it’s
a labour intensive, it’s a human intensive, is not going to work.

So, from them, you train specialized units. For instance, last year out of ten thousand, four thousand went to public order policing, POP. I just wish that we don’t train so much public order policing because if everybody does his or her work public order policy won’t be needed. If people don’t protest wanting iyimfuno zabo and all that, you won’t need POP. So, we’ll take that human capital to fight crime per se.

Therefore, the question asked, we have started to reverse the shortage, especially on the human capital. Yes, we are buying other things, but before we correct human capital, it won’t work much. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, all the hon Ministers and Deputy ministers. There is a monitor on your left-hand side. Once it turns red, it shows, be careful. Thank you.

Ms Z MAJOZI: House Chairperson, can I keep my video off since I’m on the road, just to stay connected to the House?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Go on sister.


Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, one of the areas of focus for Operation Shanela is the tracing of wanted suspects with the focus on murder and rape suspects. Considering that South Africa’s per capita murder rate for 2022-23 was the highest, it has been in 20 years. How will this operation be adapted to be proactive in its protection of citizens rather than reactive in its search to find murderers after lives have been lost? And, the fact that I’ve been raising these issues in the portfolio committee, that the Operations Shanela must also go into hostels, what is the strategy going forward? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, yes, indeed Operations Shanela works as I’ve said on the analysed way. You asked the question what has happened. Since launched on the 8th of May until the end of December, 442 000 people have been arrested. That’s 442, these is above to those that are in prison, these 442. Among them are wanted criminals, murderers, hijackers, and all that. Thirteen illegal laboratories have been dismantled in the country, including the last one, the biggest ever that was dismantled in Campton Park last week.
Six top drug busters have been done, which is almost 500 million on a street value. So, it has really put this operation on serious effective of crime prevention.

Well, the hon member asked if we have not been in hostels, unfortunately we don’t come back to tell we have operated there, we have operated there, we have operated there. We have been in hostels, especially those that are notorious hostels. One of them is KwaMashu, we have been in KwaMashu several times and you remember were found many people, many criminals, that hide at KwaMashu and all that.

And some hostels, Denver, Jeppe and Kwa-Mayi Mayi and all that, we have been there. So unfortunately, we can’t give a blow by blow, that where we have been, what we have done. But the Operation Shanela, finds us everywhere, including the hostel that the member has been concerned about. Thank you.

Question 38:
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon Chairperson, the reply to the question is that applicants who qualify for a South African diplomatic passport must have their application submitted with a covering official letter
from the relevant Ministry or department or a branch within a department.

They would need the approval of the director-general of the department and should submit a completed passport application form signed in the normal manner. A certified copy of their identity document or card and a certified copy of the biographical page of a current diplomatic passport, if they already hold one. Those are the requirements.

At this time I have had occasion to discuss this with the director-general and to say I think we need to look at these requirements and have a stricter set because they’re rather too general. But that is the practice at the moment. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms E L POWELL: Hon Minister, a number of months ago the Presidency denied the DA’s request to understand who has been issued with diplomatic passports. It’s clear that there is incredible secrecy around who your department has issued a diplomatic passport to. Notwithstanding, of course, the diplomatic privileges and immunities that arise from having access to such a passport.
In an open democracy it should stand to reason that strict rules would apply to the issuing of such passports and that information in this regard would be open to parliamentary scrutiny. This is, of course, to ensure that these sorts of passports are not dished out to carry political favour.

Towards the end of last year in a joint meeting with the head of the Council of Traditional Leaders, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on International Relations and
Co-operation instructed officials within your department to ensure that certain groups of individuals were issued with diplomatic passports.

Can you please give us your reflections on whether or not you believe it’s acceptable for politicians and Parliament to issue instructions to officials in your department? And will you undertake to provide us with a list of all diplomatic passport holders? Thank you, Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Powell, I hope you know that Rule 1425 restricts you to ask only one follow up question. It is up to the discretion of the Minister whether she responds to all your questions.

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Chairperson, South Africa’s democracy is one of the most open and transparent in the world. We have very, very strict rules around openness. However, we must follow international practice and ensure that no official is exposed to a poor or negative treatment by any individual or entity in any part of the world.

I know that in terms of the Constitution we have a separation of powers between Parliament, the executive, the judiciary and other organs of governance, and thus, while certainly Parliament scrutinizes and finalizes legislation, the policy would come from the executive to Parliament. And thus, if a matter is within the legislative domain and has been endorsed through an Act signed by the President, clearly, then the executive would act on the basis of that legislation. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr D L MOELA: Hon Minister, in light of the requirements outlined for issuing a diplomatic passport to South African citizens, can the hon Minister elaborate on any recent initiative or improvement implemented by the department to streamline and expedite the application process for diplomatic
passports, ensuring efficiency and effectiveness in serving the diplomatic community. Thank you very much, hon Minister and hon House Chair.

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: I thank hon Moela for the question. We do strive at all times to improve our performance in a range of areas. But I think it’s important to point out that we receive and process applications, the issuing would be by the Department of Home Affairs, which has the statutory responsibility for processing passport applications. So, we would confirm that the applicant can, indeed, hold a diplomatic passport but the actual issuing would be through the Government Printers and with the instruction and directive of the Department of Home Affairs.

And we have had a significant improvement in South Africa in the processing and issuing of passports since the Department of Home Affairs overhauled its processes and improved the processing vastly.

So, what we would want to look at would be: Are we issuing these to the persons who should hold them? And are the
diplomatic passports being utilized for the purposes for which they’re issued?

At this moment I am satisfied that we are pursuing at this particular aspect of our work in terms of the law and would welcome any indication to the contrary. I would then act on it. Thank you, Chairperson.

Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Minister, how many applications has the department recorded thus far? And what are the plans in place to assist those whose applications were rejected? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I will also refer you to Rule 1427.

Proceed, hon Minister.

Montwedi ...



... potso eo ke potso e ntšhwa. Le mpotsitse ka gore go tlhokega eng gore motho a fiwe bukana ya mosepele wa
sediplomate. Potso e o e botsang e ntšhwa. Fa e le gore o batla ke e arabe ke kopa gore o mpotse potso sentle mme ke tla e araba. Ke a leboga.

MODULASETILO WA NTLO (Moh M G Boroto): Tona, wa utlwagala go ya ka melao eo re e dirisang.

Re tswelela pele.


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Minister, in the initial response to the question you said something which I think is fundamentally important at the end of your response, when you spoke about the need of relooking at and reviewing the regulations in order to tighten them in order to ensure the collective integrity of our passports. And, so, we want to encourage that exercise to be undertaken.

But, Minister, the inverse of the issuance of passports for South African diplomats is the issuance of visas for foreign diplomats coming into South Africa. And I think it’s important that we’ve put in place systems in place for that.
So, what I want to ask the Minister is: Is there a programme to expedite the issuance of visas? I spoke to one Brazil, Russia, India, China South Africa, Brics diplomat coming into South Africa who had to wait about three months in order to get a visa to come into the country. So, I think that for those there has to be a seamless operation between the two, that [Time expired.] it’s passport on one hand and ... [Inaudible.] ... on the other hand. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Just a reminder that a member is allowed to make a statement or an opinion, I didn’t hear the question. But the Minister will respond.

Chairperson, I wish to begin by asserting that the passport of South Africa, which was a new passport developed by the Department of Home Affairs, is a passport that has been found to be secure and thus to have, for want of a better term, integrity.

We certainly have tightened both access to the South African passport and all security norms for the issuing of a passport and security markers within it have been vastly improved to
the point that other countries are looking at our own passport in South Africa and which to learn from us how to develop a vastly improved instrument.

With respect to visas. This is not within my domain, this is in the domain of the Department of Home Affairs. Of course, where there are delays or queries, we would assist with ... I’m not sure if that’s a reference to me. But, Chairperson, we would assist, should diplomats require assistance.

And, if the hon member could let me know which diplomat he’s referring to and what the particular problem was. If it’s within the domain of our work, clearly, we would be able to address that.

There have been instances where there have been proposals for appointment which do not meet the criteria of South Africa and we have had to not agree to those persons being given any access to our country and to diplomatic status. But that is always dealt with within our regulatory regime. I thank you, Chairperson.

Question 25:

House Chairperson, the response to the question is that the Cabinet has indeed received notice of the resolution adopted by the National Assembly and Cabinet is yet to deliberate and finalise on the issue linked to the closure of Israeli Embassy in South Africa and the proposed suspension of all diplomatic ties until a ceasefire is agreed to by Israel, as well as having Israel’s commitment to binding United Nations, UN, facilitated negotiations whose outcome must be adjust sustainable and a lasting peaceful solution to the conflict with the two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side, both enjoying peace and security. So, until Cabinet has made a decision, there would not be any action on the resolution that Madam Speaker has alerted Cabinet to. I thank you, House Chair.

Ms O H MKHALIPI: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, if the Cabinet still has to deliberate on the decision that was taken November 21 last year ... this very out of order.
Nevertheless, we took this decision as a party to lodge a formal submission for the closure of the Israeli Embassy and expel its ambassador because we appreciate the scale and significance of the genocide taking place in Gaza, which is
still taking place even today after illegal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel that continues to implement apartheid in the Palestine – a murderous government. We are encouraged by the decision taken by the government of Brazil to cut all diplomatic ties with Israel. Why is South Africa not doing it today? Why must we take too long? Thank you, House Chair.

Indeed, there’s a recent indication by Brazil. I don’t think they have cut all ties, as has been reported in the press, but there’s certainly tension following President Lula’s keynote address at the Assembly of the African Union. With respect to South Africa, you would be aware that the Ambassador of Israel was withdrawn by his own country and that South Africa has closed its embassy in Israel and that all that is operational in terms of provision of services to citizens in that part of the Middle East region is the embassy in Ramallah, which, as the hon member would be aware, is granted its diplomatic status by the State of Israel, which is the occupying force in Palestine.
On the matter of the genocide that we believe is underway in Gaza, we have made our approach to the International Court of Justice, ICJ. The hon member is aware of the provisional measures that have been laid down by the International Court of Justice and is also aware that Israel has not responded positively on these measures. We have alerted the ICJ to our concerns as to the danger posed to innocent Palestinians, following even an approach to one of the most important UN institutions on the globe. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Mr B S NKOSI: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, in the aftermath of the National Assembly’s resolution in November 2023 and the recall of the Israeli Ambassador, what diplomatic alternatives or channels is the government exploring to address the concerns that led to the call for the closure of the Israeli Embassy?

House Chair, thank you to hon Nkosi for that question. The hon member would be aware that wea re in constant communication with various stakeholders and leaders in Israel who are supportive of peace in Palestine and who support freedom for the Palestinian people. We don’t have engagement with the
government of Israel at present. We also have engagements with the government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority, and the member would have heard me respond a few moments ago on the case that South Africa has placed before the International Court of Justice, which case indicates our belief that there is an intent to commit genocide against the Palestinian people in Gaza and in all the occupied territories of Palestine. We continue to prosecute and pursue that case along with other likeminded countries that are indicated a strong intention to join the case.

There is also a second hearing underway at the instance of Palestine in the ICJ on whether the occupation of Palestine constitutes acts that are akin to apartheid and therefore that offend the UN Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We, as South Africa, are one of the 56 countries that have made a submission to the ICJ and made an oral presentation with regard to this second matter. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, if I recall, you made a statement at one stage that it is practically impossible to shut down completely the Israeli
Embassy in South Africa and of course for economic reasons and more. Now, my question the is: What is the rationale behind adopting this – a motion when we could rather deal with those that we can achieve, like South Africans with dual citizenship in the Israeli Defence Force or putting in stringent visa conditions for the for Israelis traveling to South Africa.
Would you not consider that as a means of putting pressure on Israel to comply with the ceasefire? Thank you.


House Chairperson, I am not sure I would have used the words “practically impossible”. I do think more action must be considered by the government to indicate the very serious concerns we have, particularly now, with the threats that are being made to Palestinians who were directed to move both from the north and the south and are now gathered in 1,2 million in number in Rafah. The threat of an onslaught on Rafah is a presaging a horrible catastrophe. So, we are extremely concerned, and I believe that government needs to consider now what further measures it may wish to take with response to addressing the continuing harm that is befalling the people of Palestine. Alongside that, we also believe that we should look at what steps we might take to support the call that all
hostages held by Hamas must be freed as part of a package that will begin a process where we can have deliberations on a two- states solution. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Mr S N SWART: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, you said some four months into the Russia and Ukraine war that the international community must focus on finding a sustainable solution and you emphasise that such a solution will not be found in isolating one party or bringing it to its knees. The ACDP agrees and believes the same principle as you’ve just enunciated applies to the Middle East situation and to Israel. You also subsequently said about Israel that breaking off diplomatic relations with Israel will be counterproductive as it will also affect representative office in Ramallah, and by implication, weaken the meaningful role South Africa can play. Do you still hold to that view and the view that diplomacy and dialogue is the only option that is open so that we can bring peace to the Middle East? Thank you.

Indeed, Mr Swart, I do believe that dialogue and negotiations are the route to peace. This is the Ubuntu philosophy that lies within the constitutional framework of South Africa.
However, I believe that where there is great harm being caused, a country such as South Africa has to indicate its concern and take concerted action to point to its displeasure with the harm visited upon an oppressed people. I think South Africa needs to be far stricter where there is oppression and denial of human rights. It is this context that leads us not to be in a position to be in constant engagement with Israel. I believe you and the ACDP can perhaps be extremely helpful in that you may have contacts in Israel that we do not have and therefore perhaps you could use your persuasion to stop the bombardment of the people of Palestine. Your persuasion to allow water, energy and food. Your persuasion to address the trucks carrying aid that have stopped at borders to be allowed in. Hundreds of trucks that are not being permitted - and that’s forced deviation being visited upon the people of Palestine. I think given your contacts and your friendly relations with Israel; it would be most helpful if you could intervene in this regard. I thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Question 6:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chair, I am a little bit confused and would like to ask. Is it permissible under the rules because the hon Hlengwa has asked a question of
international and national importance, which he has brought into the public domain, but he has asked it to a wrong Minister. May I clarify that because it worries me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In your four minutes, if you are able to answer, you can continue.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I will be Chairperson, thank you very much. I am surprised because we have five countries in Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, BRICS, including South Africa. I am not talking about the new countries.
Because I do not think he meant them. Russia and Brazil do not need visas to come to South Africa. So, the diplomats he is talking about are not from these countries, but India and China, which are visa-free at the diplomatic and official level. Anyone travelling on their diplomatic or official passport does not need a visa. So, I would like to know which country this diplomat he is talking about is coming from?

The White Paper recommends that the government of the Republic South Africa review and perhaps even withdraw from the 1951 Convention and its 1967 Protocol relating to the status of refugees in order to accede to them with reservations like
other countries. The procedure involved depositing the reservations to the Secretary General of the United Nations. That will be followed by outlining Article 44 of the Convention and further guidance is contained in section 231 of the Constitution that deals with international agreements.
According to Article 42 of the 1951 Convention, signatories may make reservations to articles of the Convention other than Article 1, definition of the term “refugee”, Article 3, non- discrimination, Article 4, religion. and Article 16, access to justice. Article 33 non-refoulement. Then Article 36 information on national legislation. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. You may take your seat if you want to, and then stand when you respond.

The next follow up, Ohh, hon Philly, I'm sorry.

Mr K B PILLAY: Thank you very much House Chair. Minister, thank you for your response. The overall of the immigration laws may also require the harmonisation of all the other immigration laws. Will the Minister also consider repealing these legislations?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The White Paper clearly proposes that the four Acts relating to this area of immigration be repealed in their entirety and re-enacted from scratch. These are the South African Citizenship Act of 1995, the Refugee Act of 1998, the Immigration Act of 2002 and finally the Identification Act of 1997. So, we are definitely proposing to repeal these laws. Because some of them have been amended so many times that officials cannot even interpret them anymore. Thank you.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Thank you, Chair. Talking of officials who can’t interpret anything, if the ANC intends to create 500 000 jobs per year, your department must be the first to be overhauled as you have dismally failed to issue visas and permits in time and chased away countless tourists in the process who create jobs. Your circular on 21 December 2023 for short term visa holders to leave the country by 23 February 2024 if their visa renewal had not been processed. In your sona debate speech, you performed a U-turn and said if tourists had applied for a visa extension but had not yet received a response, their receipt was proof of this extension until their visa outcome had been determined. But tourists are still being banned and declared undesirables today.
Will the Minister issue an urgent directive to the Border Management Authority, BMA, that their application receipt is proof of an extension of their visa until they learn the outcome to clear up any confusion and stop the flights of tourists who support job creation, and if not, why do you not want to make sure that your BMA agents adhere to your directives?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I am not sure, whether this is still part of the initial question. I’m not sure, but I’m prepared to respond to it. I issued a statement about that issue and what you are asking me to do is exactly what people were complaining about. My department issued a circular to BMA to do exactly what you are saying, and it raised an uproar. And I said it was not even necessary for that to happen. They were doing it because they were scared that the new BMA officials may not understand.

If your visa is about to expire and you apply for a new one, the receipt you receive will be considered an extension until you get the answer, and no one can arrest you. This circular was just to remind BMA officers that they are not allowed to arrest anyone who has received a receipt because they are
waiting for an answer. So, we are not chasing any tourist away. We never did so. And the statement we issued clearly states that. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Minister, for realising that the question was a new one. Let’s not do that, hon members, because I may not be clear with the content. So, if Ministers are going to raise it out, it helps me. Thank you.

Mr T MOGALE: Thank you very much. I was Chairperson.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is that you, hon member?

Mr T MOGALE: I will be taking the question on behalf of hon Tetyana.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, proceed.


Mr T MOGALE: Minister, we know that there are strict measures that you propose in the White Paper to deal with the issue of immigration of Africans, particularly to this country.
Therefore, we would like to ask you the following question. What measures has the Minister taken to ensure that asylum seekers who have immigrated are not subjected to the same inhumane and degrading treatment that they have often experienced under your leadership? The BMA needs to be strengthened to be effective. However, does the Minister believe that it will be effective in its current form?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There was more than one question. The Minister will answer it.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson and hon member, we have never issued a White Paper exclusively for Africans. The White Paper that we have issued is for the whole world, for all nationalities who want to immigrate or come to South Africa. It is not just about Africans. Secondly, on the issue of the BMA, yes, we empower the BMA and there is a wrong belief that the BMA is only there to deal with people who want to cross the borders used by the country. The BMA deals with human trafficking, counterfeit goods, stolen goods and all other things that can bring down the economy. The BMA is dealing with that, and we are equipping it to do that, and it is doing it very effectively now, even with a small staff. And
I want to advise you that we have trained 400 new border guards in the last seven months, and we will be introducing them at the end of March when they have completed their training. They are to step up the work at the borders. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. May the ICT officials please come and assist with the monitors. My table staff is struggling. But I have a plan as we proceed.

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. Allowing a system to deteriorate can lead to violations of fundamental human rights. Timely intervention could have prevented asylum seekers and refugees from experiencing long delays and unfair treatment ... [Inaudible.] ... the South African economy being harmed, the deterioration of security, the strain of public resources and the threat to regional stability. My question to the Minister would be whether he believes that early intervention by the Department of Home Affairs could have prevented the deterioration of the matters before the House today?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, unfortunately I do not understand this question. Early intervention of what?
Because we always try to do things as early as possible, and as the law allows, it is early intervention of what?
Intervention of where? Can I ask for some clarification? Please, otherwise I am answering the wrong question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I would just propose that the hon Mulder, because we are waiting on time. We will have to write the question to you. It will be a written question that will assist us all as we proceed. Thank you.

I will now invite the Minister of Police and to respond on question.

Question 53:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you Chair. I take note that I was not invited to sit down, but it’s okay. The 10 000 entry level police trainees provided for the 2024-25 financial year will be recruited and enlisted as follows: First intake for 2024-25, that would be April and that would be 4 500 recruits. Then the second intake for 2024-25 would be February 25 with
5 500 recruits. That will make 10 000. Bigger chunk of these
numbers goes to Visible Policing. Western Cape as allocated out of the allocation, 438 will go to Visible Policing, Eastern Cape 369, Northern Cape 150, Free State 168, KwaZulu- Natal 796, North West 237, Mpumalanga 694, Limpopo 179 and Gauteng 329. Altogether, out of 4 500 that would have been trained as the first intake, 3 500 will go to Visible Policing. Thanks, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, and my apologies. You may take your seat as we ask the follow-up question. [Laughter.] Okay. The follow-up question, hon Majozi.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, in 2023 it was reported that in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu- Natal and the Northern Cape, around 26% of Visible Policing vehicles were not operational. How has this problem been addressed, especially considering that new recruits placed in the Visible Policing Division will be in need of vehicles to do their work? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. Chair, we have taken note of the long time that our cars will spend where
they’re supposed to be fixed. And indeed, if you go to the garages, whether you go to Benoni, whether you go to Limpopo, whether you go to Mpumalanga, you will find that there are many cars that are there. For that to improve, we have - as the SA Police - recruited young South Africans, sent them to Tvet colleges. Those that they are trained as mechanics. But those that are not, we send them to Tvet colleges. We are trying to decentralize the fixing of cars, rather than one car that is broken down in Durban is sent to Empangeni. Empangeni cars must be fixed at Empangeni. Cala cars and Engcobo cars must be fixed.

So, when choosing two things, we choose the distribution of work, but we are putting more young people in training to be able to work with the police with a very strict timelines that this kind of breakdown will have to take this time. We have put quite a number of young people now in this process. We believe that when everybody is there and when every workstation has been created working with the local governments, we will be able to fix these cars faster and quicker so that they go back to the road. The decision is that at any given time it should be 80-20. At least 20% of cars
should be in in the garages. But 80% of cars should be forever on the road. Thank you very much.

Ms M M GOMBA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, Visible Policing is also linked with Operation Shanela and it involves the co-operation and working together with communities. How will the Minister ensure that the role and involvement of the community in the fight against crime is strengthened within the context of Visible Policing? I thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, it doesn’t matter whether half of South African can be the police. As long as we don’t have working relationship with the communities, it won’t work. But also, you must remember that working with the communities is a constitutional obligation. It is on the Constitution and legislated, especially the Community Policing Forums, CPFs. There are other structures that community include like neighbourhood watch and all that. For the first time in last year’s budget, we put some money in the communities to be able to get the resources to work without being hindered by working with the police. For instance, I remember very well that in Gauteng all CPFs districts, have a
combi so that they are not depending on the police station vehicles, but have their own.

We have just received the report on that R70 million that we have put. That R70 million, we are very glad that at least it has been 98% utilized up to this point. These provinces, Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng got the lion’s share on those and then we believe that putting those resources in the hands of the CPFs will improve the working relationships, and also the efficiency of these structures. Thanks.

M.Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on the 8 February 2024, the state President stated during the state of the nation address that the government has strengthened the ranks of the police service by recruiting 20 000 police officers over the past two years and another 10 000 in the year to come. The demand for policing services is growing daily, but the personnel strength of the department is decreasing, despite this huge recruitment drive. The numbers decreased from 157 518 in 2012 to 140 048 in 2022. Minister, you and your department’s inability to introduce a workable retention strategy undermines the safety of all South Africans. How do you plan to rectify this? And by when Minister? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: When you were responsible for supply chain management, hon member, you were supposed to build the station called ... [Inaudible.] ... You remember us meeting? That you were supposed to ... [Interjections.] ... That station has not been built since ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, I have been cautioned about replying directly to the member.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... [Laughter.] ... No, I’m just reminding him that he was responsible to build these police stations. He left them unbuilt ... [Laughter.] ... But the crux of the matter is that I fully agree with the member. We have a problem of the high turnout of police members. Since that was allowed that you can take your pension and retire at 55, we have high number of police that are leaving at that age. So instead of increasing the number from the young blood, we find ourselves replacing. That has been put in the Treasurer, and it has been put with the President.

The 10 000 was on the first cycle of three years. We believe that we will be given, and we believe that the age will be going younger and less and less people will be retiring going
forward. Once that happens, we will begin to pick up the numbers within the SA Police. As it stands now, almost every month we sign more than 100 that are leaving the system. Which at the age of 55, you can’t stop them. The law allows them to do so. And when they come and they say they retire, we urge them to stay long, especially on the crucial elements like detectives where the experience is needed. Some are coming back and all that. But we are working on that, hon Terblanche, the SCM of the SA Police.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Terblanche, they still need you in the SAPS. Maybe the Minister wants you back. [Laughter.]

Mr V GERICKE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, our country is under threat of serious crime and sophisticated criminals. Therefore, we need much more policemen and women on the ground. Ten thousand more policemen will not be sufficient given the state of crime in communities. Do you in any way consider to integrate the reservist force into the former police structure in order to increase visibility and manpower? There is a dire need for foot patrols in densely populated communities. Do you have a plan in this regard? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member Gericke, I fully agree with you. But we don’t only need members and quantity, we also need quality within the SA Police, of which the response of the SA Police has huge successes in big takedowns. If you want to see a real serious takedown, come to Western Cape. Your well known Modack, your well-known Ralph, your well-known everybody. They are in there. But again, police have just done big takedown announcement yesterday, which is continuing and all that. That includes the murder of the German tourist in Limpopo. Those people have been arrested. We are about to arrest those that killed the water official. We are about to know them. We are chasing them and all that. So, it’s both quantity and quality.

But this question is also related to the relationship with the communities. Indeed, we are trying to recruit more reservists. But the problem that you have found with reservists, as they come - some of them - they want to bypass the proper recruitment channels. They say because we are reservist, so take us on. Bypass the age thing, bypass the standard, bypass the other things, bypass the health, bypass the criminal record and all that. So, you still have to do what you supposed to do to be a permanent member of South Africa. But we have started to increase those members. They are the good
ones. We work with them, and they help us a lot and we are not about to cut off on that policy of recruiting reservists.
Thank you very much.


Question 10:


role of the Defence Force is the protection of the territorial integrity and the sovereignty of this country. The list that the hon Phetlhe lists as the roles that we find ourselves in, are actually recognised secondary roles of the Defence Force. So, as a matter of fact we are not doing anything unto wants because right from the inception and the new born called the SA National Defence Force that role of being deployed in support of the police and any other department of this country became our role.

So, whilst our budget should be slanted towards our primary role, we do find ways of training to be in the secondary role. That is why when the military is deployed in support of the police, we make sure that quickly we refresh on the military codes but they also understand the roles of the police and how they will behave in support. As far back as 1921, if I am correct hon Marais, this country recognised the role of the
military in disaster management. That is why SA Forces Institute, SAFI, was created and empowered as a vehicle that enables the defence in terms of disasters to be the only body that can procure. We are ready, we are trained and we prepare to be in that role of supporting the others.

On the building of bridges, we are there. In the building of bridges; the ones that you have madam in KwaZulu-Natal, the ones that we boast about in the Eastern Cape and the ones that are being built across this country in co-ordination and co- operation with the Public Works Department, we are there. We are there to make sure that the border is secured. We work with border management authority, BMA. We are aware that we are now in the mines together with the police. When you start touching the systems and the integrity of our economy, you touch us.

Therefore, we are not apologetic that we find ourselves in the roles even though most of the time we are not adequately budgeted for. Which country can stand anywhere if it cannot show that it is strong enough to protect itself and to protect its economy? Therefore, we would say that, yes, we are there. Are we trained? Yes, every soldier in the Defence Force does
have an alternative trait. This Defence Force has produced plumbers, electricians, nutritious wood workers, builders, whatever we have them. Therefore, in terms and in terms of the disasters they come in as the secondary hands to help South Africa rebuild. Thank you, Madam.

Ms P A PHETLHE: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response. Given the increasing involvement of the SA National Defence Force in addressing internal threats, can you provide insight into any recent developments or initiatives taken by the government to enhance co-operation and co-ordination between the military law enforcement agencies and other relevant stakeholders to effectively address these challenges? I thank you.

meet regularly. The National Security Council now meets regularly. There is always a lookout for what is happening in this country. Therefore, whether the information comes from the structures, from the police or from the military we keep in the know. We also must remember that when we are deployed in support of the police that sometimes it does not cost us a cent, but we make provision for it.
When disaster strike, for instance, at the last Nehawu strike our soldiers were all over the country. Our soldiers were in clinics in the rural areas to make sure that especially the little babies did not die. So, there is co-ordination of the structures that regularly reports to us and we regularly sit and look at the way outs. We regularly sit and inform the Head of State who is the Commander-in-Chief, by the way, of the SA National Defence Force. So, we make sure that whatever it is that we are looking at we are prepared to save lives and we are prepared to restore dignities of South Africans.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, you look very good in blue, specially there on the screen. I must admit I was not sure whether I will see you here today given the news of the last couple of days that you have apparently joined the MK party. So glad to see you here.

However, Minister, surely you must agree that the appetite of your government to deploy our overstretched and under- resourced Defence Force manpower and equipment is because of the failed state of these government departments, most notably, the SA Police Service. This is dangerous, irresponsible and is endangering more than just the soldiers.
It can be argued that it is not a fight against a threat of our national security but in isolated geographical areas where the interest of the ANC is under threat.

The Budget last week certainly have not provided any financial assistance. What have you done to secure more resources specifically money, modern warfare prime mission equipment especially the continuous use of ... [Inaudible.] ... helicopters and ... [Time expired.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Marais, this is a National Parliament. Let us not put none tested allegations on this platform, please.


am very happy to have blue anytime. It is a colour I like. I am also happy to wear any other colour of the rainbow in this country. I do think that what we fought for as South Africans was to be able to express ourselves in any way, our cultures and our identities it does not matter what colour. Therefore, I wear blue and, of course, I do not want to really grace and promote the ... I almost said rubbish, pardon me. The rubbish
news of me ever leaving this organisation that I went into as a young person.

Nevertheless, your question was that we do not have money and the police have failed. I do not think so. I think that we must go back to the 1990s especially around 1995-96 when we were in the mode of integrating and making sure that all the peoples of this country find themselves into the defence and into the police. I think we must also look at the then funding patterns of the state.

If anybody has failed to provide for defence to have adequate

... I put it squarely ... and I have said it quite openly in my party, it is the decision that was taken by the executive there to try and push money to build houses, to build schools and to make sure that the social spending and the dignity of South Africans was made to be more primary than to rearm and to maintain the equipment of the defence.

Now, we are very clear that that might have been a good thing to make sure that you do away and try and lessen the indignity of black people in this country as soon as possible. However, you also created a problem because there in light of the lack
of maintenance, identified funds and we have been hard at work to ratify that. We will be coming to the committees to tell you what we have been doing. I am out of time but we have a plan which I am sure the hon Marais will be very happy to hear.

Mr W T I MAFANYA: Thabo, it was my turn. The deployment of the SA National Defence Force in any security threat situation be it domestic gang warfare, illegal mining and combating of Eskom mafia syndicates, we agree with you ... [Inaudible.] ... Minister demands our army to be fully equipped with the compliant, not just weapons, compliant necessary weapons. The soldiers must always be combat ready and their wellness is paramount.

Minister, no amount of strategy can save the continuous decline of our military capabilities while the Treasury failed to fund the SA National Defence Force optimally. How do you hope to save the SA National Defence Force from the embarrassing defeats by criminals? Thank you.


not any embarrassing defeat from the South African criminals
on the defence. So far we have managed to play our role effectively in support of the police. We have also been mindful that, in fact, we are in support of the police and that the police must take the lead when we are deployed internally.

However, I did say to Ntate [Mr] Marais that we do have a plan. We have been busy with the 2015 review Ntate Marais. We are at the point where we have been engaging, where we are left with calling for expects and the committee to look at what we are working on. The Defence Force has come out with what they call the Journey to Greatness.

We have been in discussion with the Commander-in-Chief and we have been asked to start putting up a financial plan for what we want to put in. We want to be able to stop the further decline but in the meantime to be able to continue to do what we do best, and that is to protect the integrity of South Africa. Thank you.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Firstly, my concern is that we continuously deploy our members of the SA National Defence Force to support the police in dealing with crime that is
happening inside the country. However, it is this government of the day that has allowed the influx, that has allowed Tom, Dick and Harry to come to South Africa and sort of do crime unhindered. Now, we are seeing the SA National Defence Force members to go in there and assist. My main question, Chair, is around the fact that since then they have been deployed to assist, what gains have we successfully achieved since the members were deployed to support the SA Police Service? Thank you.

question, during COVID-19 the police and the SA National Defence Force were deployed to help out. To make sure that people stayed in and to prevent the further spread which could have been more catastrophic for this country. We have been, as I quoted earlier on; during the Nehawu strike, in clinics looking after babies, in schools making sure that those kids were not abandoned sometimes when classes should continue.

The hon Cebekhulu also says that we have allowed Tom, Dick and Harry to come into the country, he forgot the James and the Marys. We have been in people’s countries. We understand how it is to be outlawed in your own country and having to run
away to try and find yourself as a human being in somebody’s else’s land. We are very clear that everybody is welcome in South Africa for as long as they respect our laws. Therefore, South Africa cannot say that it will be a country that will refuse people who are in need.

When they come into our country we expect that they will come declare themselves, that they will be under the watch eyes of Minister Motsoaledi’s Home Affairs and that the laws of this country will be respected. That is what is expected from any civilised country. So, it is not true that we would prioritise and allowing criminals to enter into our country to the detriment of our people.

If we say that, we actually will not be faithful to what this country stands for. It is for the dignity of ourselves. We must also remember that we were once out there in other people’s countries. They gave us refuge and they gave us food. Therefore, we must never forget where we come from as South Africans. Thank you, Madam.

Question 41:

question is quite straight to the point. He asked where we are finding the budget for our deployment. Hon Marais, currently we will not find a specific budget item in our budget for the amounts for deployment in the DRC because I must remind you that when we initially went into the DRC, we went under the umbrella of the United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Monusco. And that in fact, whatever it is that we were spending was supposed to be repaid that defence was not claiming all that repayment on its equipment and personnel was largely our fault that when we started demanding we got something back. Now we think that we are now going in as part of some in the DRC. That is different from the deployment from Monusco.

Initially, and the reason we were there, it was because it was clearly a conflict which was between citizens of the same country and we were part of the deployment with the UN to try and help.

The reason why Monusco thought it was time to go, it was because we were at the draw down time. That they were looking as the country DRC was going into democratic election. That we
thought the disclamation of conflict had been done. That we thought that communities were now being able to go back to their homes so that they could then start being democratic use the ballot box to restore themselves.

We agreed to go in as some in the DRC because just as the announcement was made of Monusco withdrawing and us agreed withdrawal. We started seeing the increase in the attacks in the civilians. As the Southern African Development Community, SADC, then decided that we could not leave the situation like that. And of course, we would not go in and leave the situation as dangerous or more dangerous than when we went in. And that’s why we are part of summit in the DRC.

I think that in the coming budget, you will see a budget line that will say how much we would be spending. I must also say that; we are expecting that we will be given an allocation on this current deployment. I will also say to you that; we are there because we are part not only SADC but we have always in Africa pushed for the silencing of guns making sure that people are in their own spaces to take up their own lives.
And therefore, as I said, you will not see in the current budge, you will not see a line for that. But we will be funding because we are raising that issue with Treasury and with the presidency. Thank you, Ma’am.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, despite the promises by the President, last week budget only provided R2,6 billion over the medium term for our deployment in Mozambique and the DRC, which implies that not nearly enough is available for this year’s R2,4 billion as authorised by the President related to operation PhiBa.

It was confirmed last year by Secretary of Defence and the Chief of Join Operation this cost is unfunded, which implies compromising our prime mission capabilities further and endangering the lives of ordinary South Africans as well as our deployed soldiers.

Contrary to the UN’s refunds of between R450 million and R750 million, this is our cost of R1 billion per year. This R2,4 billion must now be financed from the unfunded defence budget bottom-line, with mostly one available in the DRC, we don’t just have any support, modern technology and resources
to prevent the further loss of equipment and our soldiers returning home in body bags like we have unfortunately experienced this month. This will preventable which makes the President and yourself accomplish to their death.

The Passive Surveillance System, PSS, contracts could not be concluded between Denel and the Air Force. And even lately Air Force headquarters has been closed by the Department of Defence because is unsafe for the occupation.

Given the significant underfunded defence budget and threat experience domestically and on our borders, our higher national safety and integrity interest should be the protection of our land and people in terms of Constitution section 200(2). We do not have the luxury to be father Christmas in the ANC’s interest and threaten Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Your two minutes has now lapsed.

Mr S J F MARAIS: How do you justify in spite of the President’s promises the life survive and the wounded ... [Inaudible.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Marais, your two minutes ... You are the most advantaged to ask a follow up question for two minutes as the one who asked the question. Please, don’t stop others from getting their time. Hon Minister?

you, hon Marais, I do not wish to justify. I wish to state categorically that we have been leading in this region. We have been leading in Africa through the AU. We host the Pan African Parliament, which is home to many countries here. We preach peace, the silencing of the guns. We preach that children must be able to be comfortable in their own birth wherever they are. And that’s our contribution towards this region and this continent. There is no ANC interest in the DRC. Our interest is peace throughout the continent. We are not making money in the DRC.

You say that we are liable for the deaths. Now that I think even for you, hon Marais, is no. We are a Defence Force that does not conscript. We are a Defence Force which has members voluntarily coming in. We are a Defence Force that prepares very well for our members. And, yes, our prime equipment has
been compromised by the lack of maintenance over the years, not because we have gone into the DRC.

The reason why we have made it a point to prioritise the review of the 2015 review is precisely because we must be able to go with something that is credible, that is doable, that has costed to demand the resources that we need so that we can continue. I do not think that, hon Marais, wants me to start here and say what we are going to do about ensuring that the South Africans in the DRC are safe.

I can assure this Parliament that since last week that the DRC government has gone out of its way to make sure that it acquires for its own Defence Force that which they need to finish their business.

And I can assure you that, we on the other hand, had make sure that whatever equipment our sons and daughters need in the DRC has been shipped. Not all that they need has gone. They will get what they need to get. Do we regret that we have sent our people there? No, we don’t. Do we regret the loss of life; we mourn the passing of our children? I received the cops. I sit with those families. I speak with the DRC. I can tell you that
even their President sent condolences and sent the highest hierarchy to come here and meet upon the families.

So, we do not take making peace and allowing other people to enjoy the democracy that we enjoy as South Africans for granted. And we do as the families are told over and over that in war sometimes there is loss of life. We regret that. We want to make sure that, nothing ever happens. We have taken steps to ensure that those soldiers who are right there right now are able to withstand any pressure that they would be put to.

And yes, hon Marais, we will come to the committee. And yes, hon Marais, I do know that you do want a close meeting and know, hon Marais, on this platform, I am not going to give any operational information about the DRC meeting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You will realise that I use my discretion according to Rule 1423. As we proceed and talk to, Ntate Mmutle.

Mr T N MMUTLE: Minister, thank you for your response. In your respond, you raised an important aspect around the withdrawal
of Monusco and the decision taken by the SADC. You also raised the challenge around the reimbursement. How are you going to ensure that that process that was a challenge under Monusco is resolved? And what are the strategic objective, Minister, and the expected outcome of the deployment of this 2,9 soldiers into the Democratic Republic of Congo as well as importantly what the South African government envisage out of this deployment in so far as regional stability is concerned? And what are the main interest of the Republic in the eastern DRC? Thank you very much.


imagine in Africa that is free, that talks, that trades, that growth using their own resources without outside interference. The guns that continue to blaze are not necessarily empowered by Africans themselves. The escalation of this current flair in the DRC, I can here say, we know that it is funded. We know from where it is funded. We know the country to which those weapons are smuggled in more sophisticated than the state of the DRC.

The DRC does not have white soldiers. There are white mercenaries in the DRC that we are now seeing. So, you have
got the war that is perpetuated. And that will continue to be perpetuated until Africa gets her house in order and begins to work together. And our responsibility as SADC is not to run away from a member of SADC. It is to encourage whilst the war is going on to encourage dialogue and that’s what we are doing, encourage that as we are on war and as the dialogue is going on, we are properly resourced and we have spoken to our head of state and Treasury to begin to do just that.

And therefore, as hon Mmutle, we get to what we were now demanding from Treasury and from the presidency. We will come back to the committee and we will be able to tell you. But we are not going to be risking our children’s live.

We do know, we keep our eyes on what is happening there. Our ears are also open. We know who is playing what. But we are also saying, it is not just through the barrel of the gun that will get peace in the DRC. It is also by forcing everybody to go around the table talking. And that process is starting.

Mr W T I MAFANYA: Minister, no amount of money can instantly repair our aircraft like Rooivalk, Oryx and others whose spares cannot be manufactured or purchased anyway.
Cannibalising other aircrafts for spares did not yield the outcomes that were envisaged. No amount of instant training our soldiers can yield the results outcomes in war situations like what is presently happening in the DRC.

You caution the Ministry throughout the six Parliament that our army is outstretched and lacks resources. The R2 billion that is allocated for the cost of employment of 2 900 soldiers in the DRC is inadequate and it warrant the Ministry to withdraw our army until we have a competitive urge against the M23 army and a negative influence of Rwanda in the war in the eastern DRC.

Minister, will you consider withdrawing our army before we lose more of our soldiers in the DRC? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mafanya, don’t listen to them. Please, proceed.

Mr W T I MAFANYA: The SA National Defence Force in all its entity formations SA Health Services, Amscor, the Navy, the Air force and the Reserve Force Soldiers remains facing
serious budgetary constraints and rejuvenating the army remains the ... [Inaudible.] ... . Thank you.

Ntate W T I MAFANYA: Heh, Hope mane. O setlaela mane.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no. Hon members, you don’t have to make noise about it. No, no ...


He-eh! [Ubuwelewele.] Ayikho leyo. Asithuleni sonke futhi niyaphazamisana. Ukuphazamisana kuvumelekile la eNdlini.

There is heckling around. [Interjections.] Yes, that’s why I say to him don’t listen to whoever is speaking. Proceed. Hon Macpherson, what is your point of order?

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, I am glad you have made the point that you have because it’s okay for the EFF to hackle a DA member when they are asking a question. But I don’t like when the ANC does it today. It must be both ways.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That’s not a point of order. It was not even necessary. That’s something that you can discuss out of this House. We proceed to the Minister to respond to, Baba Mafanya.


in the silly season. We are in the silly season facing the elections, and therefore, all of us will say things that we might regret tomorrow.

The commitment of South Africa, the participation and the leadership of South Africa and the AU, in SADC, is not something that an ordinary Minister of Defence in South Africa can just by the stroke wipe away. I do not and I cannot. If you want to withdraw the troops of South Africa, you have to face the Commander-in-Chief of the SA National Defence Force. That’s the President.

My job is to ensure that those kids are given the well of thought to do what they need to do. They are looked after. I have said that, we are drawing up that plan. I have also said that, we making sure that they get what they need to get in this deployment to do their job.
So, we can’t at every time, hon members, when you have agreed to do something and when it turn sour, you turn tail and you run home. We are not children. We are committed to making sure that Africa finds herself and order herself and rule herself. And sometimes, you have to bite the bitter pill. And that bitter pill is what we are biting. Do we want our children to die in foreign shores? No! No! So, as I say, we do regret the death of our children. We do hope that none of them will die. We do actually, it is not true that the Rooivalk and oryx are not fixable. I have been running around the world, now I can tell you that as soon as we get the money, not only the Rooivalk and Oryx will be upgraded. The ships, we are in the process of making sure that they flaw nicely, your Frigence, your onshore boats will be bought. The one that is remaining and the offshore boats will be bought.

We have the plan and that plan will come to the committee. So, hon members, sometimes it will just be nice to go back to what we used to be, to respect that Defence cannot be a football in the political parties because they belong to all of us. They look after all of us. The integrity of this country hangs on their performance. And sometimes when we are in need, we need to be open to Parliament and say we are in need as we will be
coming back to Parliament to say help put and thicken your voice so that we get that which we need. Thank you, Ma’am.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Minister, provision of necessary air equipment to defend and protect women and men themselves who has been sent to the DRC to execute a mission at the same time protecting the valuable civilians’ exposed to these thugs that continue to smuggle minerals to explore them to Europe to other countries. But is the fact, hon Minister, that it is alleged that it is the Rwandans who are involve mostly with those mercenaries that the Minister has just been mentioning to disturbalise the situation in the DRC.

My question, hon Minister, South Africa has been playing a big brother in SADC. Where are the other SADC countries? What role are they playing to push their shoulders up to assist in ... [Inaudible.]?


has been playing big brother, I don’t know about that. South Africa has been playing the role that South Africa need to play to make sure that all of us can live. We forget that in the not so far past, we cost other citizens in their own
countries to be killed by our system here when we were in hiding in other people’s counties. And I am not saying that, therefore, we need to go out and die. I am saying that what we need to do is to ensure that all the parties involved in this conflict in the DRC, if we had to say to our head of state they drag, kicking and screaming to a dialogue table then we are saying that. But we know that ultimately dialogue must happen for Rwanda to find peace and that peace they must know that that peace is also needed largely in the DRC.

So, our role will be to make sure that our kids are properly looked after here at home and out wherever they are. Make sure that whatever we do in the DRC or any other country that we interact with does not leave this country vulnerable. That is where we are always focusing. Even as we go out there make sure that you do not leave South Africa vulnerable. That we can tell you, we are beginning to do very well. Thank you, Ma’am.

Question 54:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Just help me one day to tell you the story of Qaunter Quala Burdah. Gangs exist in various forms and concentration throughout the country, and they can
generally be linked to drugs and organised crime. The scourge of gangsterism is deeply seated in many communities and it requires a complete, all-encompassing government’s response to address the implications. The policy in this part one, is part of the solution. The prison gang structure requires a special attention because it fits the systematic adoption of the pervasive gang culture. These aspects were incorporated into the national anti-gangsterism strategy, which was adopted by the Cabinet in the year 2016.

The SA Police Service, SAPS, anti-gang units are at the forefront of policing interventions to address gun related crime and violence, and work closely with organized crime investigators, the Hawks. The establishment of the anti-gang unit was approved by the National Commission of Police on 26 June 2019. The establishment of the first anti-gang unit was in the Western Cape in 2019, and thereafter the concept rolled out to the Eastern Cape, Gauteng, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and the North West Province to ensure the focus police response to dealing with the gang related crime. In addition, the following SAPS actions have had an impact on the root causes and manifestation of gangsterism, and they are
intended to address the spreading of gangsterism and gang- related crimes.

Proactive law enforcement to address the supply of drugs, which is mostly associated with gangsterism, multidisciplinary police responses to drug and gangsterism related crimes, intervention designed especially to counter money laundering and promote judicial co-operation and the identification of trends and initiation of intervention to control new psychoactive substances. School safety programs are also utilised to counter the threat of gang-related crime and the involvement of learners in such crimes. The SAPS works closely with schools in each policing area, and it is actively involved in crime awareness programmes in schools. Priority schools are regularly searched for drugs and weapons, which if found, are ceased by SAPS.

Child offenders are dealt with in terms of the Child Justice Programme, in co-operation with the Department of Social Welfare. Youth at Risk are also identified and recruited to be part of the local police station youth crime prevention. The SAPS works with all the communities policing structures at the station, districts and provincial levels to address crime and
safety concerns in each community or communities affected by gang violence. Addressing the scourge of gangsterism is an important focus area of community policing forum and community partners and all the other structures that are in the community to fight the scourge of gangsterism. Thank you very much, Chair.


Mor K R J MESHOE: Ke a leboga mme Modulasitulo. Ke a leboga.


A number of researchers from some countries that are concerned about the increasing cases of gangsterism in their communities have come up with proposals they believe will help to prevent more people, particularly young people, from joining gangs.
Their proposals include the following. Firstly, they believe that communities must strengthen families and schools. The ACDP is concerned by the absence of specific programmes formulated to strengthen families and family lives in our country. Secondly, these researchers are proposing that special training should be given to teachers and parents to manage disruptive young people. My question to the Minister now is, whether the government has, or is planning to develop
programmes to prevent more gangs from emerging, particularly, in provinces that do not have problems of gangsterism, and if there are such problems, when are they going to be implemented?


Ke a leboga, mme.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the member would be reminded that it has been said time and again that in March 2022, the government passed the document that has integrated a strategy against violence and working together of all departments to fight the scourge of crime, in particular, gangsterism and the involvement of young people in crime. That document has got six pillars. One of the pillars is an early intervention to the young ones. For instance, it’s true, if you don’t deal with the young ones, they are not going to deal with gangsterism. One should forget about socioeconomic and all that, as if it would happen.

If you go to some areas, including places like Uitsig here in Hanover Park, we will be having a meeting with the community at 11h00 on Tuesday, on a school day. You’ll find out that
there are more kids at the meeting than the parents. That is not going to stop gangsterism. Therefore, there must be an intervention of Basic Education, Social Development and everyone, because a nine-year-old, 12-year-old or 11-year-old cannot get arrested. There must be the other mechanism to do that. Mfundisi [the Reverend] asked whether there is a way of doing it. I invite everybody to have the document and read it. Those six pillars will tell you that, indeed, it will help to deal with this situation. One other big other thing is socioeconomic situation that will have to change to for us to defeat gangsterism. Thanks.


Mme G P MAREKWA: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.

Hon Minister, the fight against gangsterism requires a comprehensive approach that involves the state departments, institutions, families, communities, including co-operation with provinces. Hon Minister, what is your assessment of the level of co-operation across the three spheres of government in combating crime in general and gangsterism in particular? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The document that I have spoken about should reside in the Presidency, the national, and reside in the premier’s offices, the provincial, and also reside on the mayor’s offices, the local government. That is an integrated approach that all of them have to work on that document to work on these matters. If that happens, and everything becomes the responsibility of all these levels, it will help.
Sometimes, you’ll find that the there is no proper co- operation, the priorities are not the same. I fully agree with hon Rev Meshoe, that one major thing that most of us undermines, is a unit called family. I guess, all of us as we are sitting here, very few of us will pursue and follow to find out about the situation of families of the kids that we call amaphara [thugs] or delinquent kids. We just see them and look at them when they are on nyaope [drug] or all that.
Nobody listens to them to find out what the issue is. That is one area we’ll have to work harder on. The document I have spoken about is the greatest protest against violent crime and it will help all of us to tell all Members of Parliament and those that they care to be responsible on how to respond as it has been requested. Thanks.
Mr B C GOLDING: Hon Minister, the combating of gangsterism and organised crime calls for the bolstering of specialized units in the SAPS. The DA notes the strengthening of the anti-gang unit this past week with an additional 47 members and another
53 on the way. Thank you for that. We are concerned, though, about the possible misuse of specialised units. We note with concern, particularly, the misuse of the SAPS Airwing. Minister, this past weekend, in your role as a politician, you used the SAPS helicopter as transport to a manifesto launch. Minister, did you abuse valuable state and SAPS resource for private purposes and who authorised its use?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, no, no. Firstly, you better honour yourself by getting proper facts. Don’t come here and talk things that you don’t know about. I’m giving an answer, guys, listen, the question was asked. I’m giving an answer. To start with, the grand ... [Inaudible.] You know, I don't know why the DA did not put my name in their manifest, I don’t know.
Please put my name in your manifesto so that... yeah please. You know, somebody rise to say that Cele came with the grand helicopter, I came in the stadium in exactly 6h15 in the morning driving two cars like all other Ministers. When we went to the war room, when in there, we received that there
are problems in two areas, one in KwaMashu, one in Inanda. So, the availability of reaching those areas to stop that trouble, as usual, it happens in many other times. It also happened in that way. When I arrived, I was not using the helicopter, I used the helicopter on that day when there was an ANC Manifesto, I was still the Minister of Police, and the Minister of Police had to do crime prevention together with the police, as we usually do. So, that’s what happened. So, yes, it happens.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, order, hon members.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: So, if you can just squeeze yourself a little bit to get the actual facts, you would not come and really ask such blind questions. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Maybe I must just remind hon Golding about Rule 142 (6), order, hon members, this is for you in future. Rule 142 (6) says, a supplementary question must arise directly from the original question, that’s why I always give a discretion to the Ministers, but

... singathini kanene ngesiXhosa, singayiqheli loo nto leyo...


... because we know what is expected from us.


Mr V GERICKE: Ah, Minister Cele. Hon Minister, gangsterism has been professionalised and became a fashion, particularly in our youth in disadvantaged communities. The EFF proposed a permanent special task force to fight gangsterism. Does your department, hon Minister Cele, have plans ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, don’t do that, hon members.

Mr V GERICKE: ... have plans in place to increase the number of policemen in that special squad, and will you avail appropriate budgets for this purpose?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.


Mr V GERICKE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: There are different units within the SA Police Service, SAPS. For instance, those that do ordinary policing or visible policing at stations, then you begin to move up a little bit to those that are between the high risk and medium risk, that’s what they call the Tactical Response Team, TRT, amabharet. There are also those who are called the counter assault teams, CATS, then you move up to get the National Intervention Unit, NIU, but you have to move to the top to get the Special Task Force, STF. The Special Task Force are human machines, if you have ever met the member of the Special Task Force. It takes R1,1 million to train one member of the Special Task Force. Therefore, they are used at that level. Fortunately, this March again, they’re going to compete in the United Arab Emirate, UAE, as they did last year. I think they came number 10 out of 54 countries. So, they are one of the most valuable units that we have.

We’ve also trained an anti-gang unit, which is highly trained, but also its multidisciplinary approach has got detectives, the Crime Intelligence, CI, and it has got TRT. As they approach the areas of gangsterism, we believe that anti-gang units in the country are adequate at the present moment to face the gangsters. However, the Special Task force cannot be
called to deal with that because they are called on a very high, sophisticated and dangerous activities if they need to, like the cash heist, the hijackings and all that kind of things. So, you will be overstretching and undermining your resources if you take the Special Task Force to go and do that kind of job. Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, and you may take your seat there, hon Minister, as we are done with Question 54. We now invite the hon Minister of International Relations and Co-operation to respond on Question 11.

Question 11:

Chairperson, the reply to the question is as follows, the government, through the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, intends to use all its diplomatic relations to strengthen international support for South Africa's principled case against the State of Israel's intended genocide against the Palestinian people.

Regarding the countries that share our views and convictions on the situation, we are actively engaged in exploring means
through which we can work together with them in our common goal of ending Israel's ongoing and devastating aggression against the Palestinian people. This includes exploring partnerships with these like-minded countries in amplifying our calls for an immediate end to Israel's genocidal actions and exploring co-operation against joint legal action towards dissent.

Where we meet objections to South Africa's stance on this situation, we continue to use our diplomatic relations to persuade countries of the merit of our case and the urgency of halting Israel's aggressions, which are resulting in large numbers of casualties and wholesale destruction of Palestinian lives, tantamount to what we view as genocide.

One of the provisional measures ordered by the International Court of Justice on 26 January this year directed the State of Israel to submit a report to the court on all measures taken to give effect to the provisional measures order within one month of that order, thus on 26 February. South Africa and the court now have an opportunity to study the report and to respond to it.
In ensuring Israel's compliance with the court order, South Africa will continue to pursue the options available to us under the statute of the court, the Charter of the United Nations, and the entire multilateral system to ensure full and effective implementation of the existing provisional measures.

Thank you, Chairperson.


Mr D L MOELA: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, thank you very much for the comprehensive response presented to the House. Considering the ongoing conflict in Gaza and the potential implications of the International Court of Justice, ICJ, proceedings, how does the Republic plan to address the immediate humanitarian needs of the affected population, particularly considering the reports in critical situations like in Rafah and the steps that have been taken thereof to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid to the people in need in that particular area? Thank you very much, House Chair.


Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the hon Moela for the question, as the hon Moela is aware, South Africa did provide,
through its limited means, some support in terms of humanitarian aid for the people of Palestine, and as the hon members are aware, there are many countries that have made contributions. However, the aid is being prevented from entering the occupied territories with the intent to continue what we believe is a genocidal intent.

So, we continue to work closely with UN agencies to call for and support them in the delivery of humanitarian aid to the areas that need support. We have noted with great positive view the dropping of aid by air by some countries into the occupied territories, but the first prize is for diplomatic engagement to ensure that Israel opens the borders and allows the trucks to come in to provide the much-needed aid to the people of Palestine.

I have been meeting various colleagues here in Geneva at the Human Rights Council, and I'm aware that discussions are underway to try to secure greater access to humanitarian aid and to prevent, should the talks succeed, the catastrophe that we expect will occur should there be an onslaught on Rafah, but all of us are working together as colleagues throughout
the world to try to end the slaughter and to ensure that aid does get through to the people of Palestine.

Mr M CHETTY: Minister, a number of months ago, your department closed the South African mission in Tel Aviv and withdrew all our staff members. However, the embassy in Ramallah, Palestine, remains open. We know that the Ramallah embassy has always operated in concert with the embassy in Tel Aviv, and it's not possible for this embassy to process votes abroad while the embassy in Tel Aviv remains closed.

In three months, South Africa will head to the polls. All South Africans have a guaranteed constitutional right to vote. What plans is your department putting in place to ensure that South African citizens in both Palestine and Tel Aviv will be able to cast their vote? I thank you.

Chairperson, while that is a new question, I do think the hon member could submit it as a question to me. I can assure the hon member that our embassy in Ramallah is pulling out all the stops to provide the necessary assistance to any South African citizen that remains in the area of conflict, or indeed in Tel
Aviv. The ambassador in Ramallah is working extremely hard to address the needs of our communities in both areas, but as the member would know, given the armed conflict and the onslaught that is underway, it is very difficult for any diplomatic mission to operate successfully.

We will do all that we can to ensure that South Africans are well served. The hon member would be aware that his party has significant contacts, just as the other ACDP colleague is aware, and we would expect that they will use their good officers to also ensure that Israel stops its onslaught on the people of Palestine and ensures all of us can then provide the normal services to our citizens as diplomatic missions in that part of the world. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms N J NOLUTSHUNGU: House Chair, after having instituted proceedings to prosecute Israel at the International Criminal Court, ICC and the recent application at the ICJ, how has this affected diplomatic and trade relations with countries that are in support of the racist and murderous Israeli regime?
Thank you.

Chairperson, the hon Montwedi would certainly be very aware that the countries that are the greatest supporters of Israel are also those countries that claim to reflect and practice the highest democratic ideals. These ideals also include the sovereign right of nations to determine their foreign policy. So, the hon Montwedi would surely be quite horrified to hear that in these countries, some of the most powerful in the world, there are public representatives who are intent on pursuing legislation against South Africa to curb trade with them because of the foreign policy position that the South African government has correctly adopted, a principled position in support of those who are oppressed and who are under threat imminently of death.

We believe it is correct for the South African government and indeed the people of South Africa to hold this principled position of peace, of security and of ending destruction and death, and so we are saddened that we note this intent in the House of Representatives in the United States of America, of a pursuit of what we believe is untenable and should not happen, of breaking or reducing trade ties with South Africa. We will continue to engage with public representatives as well as
executive leaders in the United States of America to say that such a step were it to be taken is unwarranted and goes against the very edict of the meaning of democracy and sovereign rights. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, may I request to leave my video off for the purposes of connectivity. Chairperson, I think we all joined in the international clarion call being made for a ceasefire and for a return to the negotiating table to reach a lasting solution for both Israel and Palestine, particularly along the lines of the two-state solution, and that is a noble ideal for humanity that all of us should pursue.

Of course, the exercise of going to the ICJ is a costly one and whilst there is no cost that can be attached to Ubuntu, it is necessary for us to be taken on board in terms of the financial implications this has for the national fiscus. The question then Minister becomes. How much is this costing us and at what rate are we paying which departments are part and parcel of the funding model which is carrying South Africa's case at the ICJ as we have been then continuing with the court action there? Thank you, House Chairperson.

Chair, again this is a new question, and I should say that a member of the DA had asked it and I had responded to the question in writing. The costs are not prohibitive because we have been paying the costs of the staff of the Justice Department officials and that is paid by The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and then officials from the legal section of the Department of International Relations and Co-operation would be paid for by my department. The other legal counsel that we have utilised, the SA Legal Council has provided pro bono services, and we appreciate this commitment.

I believe that these are resources that are very well spent.

They've included airfare costs, minimal subsistence and travel, S and T, as per the Public Service Handbook and not of a size that would cause alarm to the hon members of Parliament. However, should these specific figures be needed, I will ask my office to provide the hon Hlengwa with the response I provided to the member of the DA who asked this very question. I thank you Chair.

Question 1:

Chairperson, the response to the question is as follows: Firstly, in a request that we submitted to the International Court of Justice on 12 February, the South African government expressed its grave concern, that the unprecedented military offensive against Rafah would result in further large-scale killing, harm and destruction in violation of the court order of 26 January this year, and in breach of the Genocide Convention.

South Africa requested the court to exceptionally consider exercising its power under Article 75(1) of the rules of the court, which empower the court at any time to decide whether the circumstances of the case require the indication of additional provisional measures which ought to be taken or complied with by any or all of the parties.

In its order of 16 February, the court affirmed South Africa’s view that the perilous situation demands immediate and effective implementation, of the already ordered provisional measures indicated in the order of 26 January, which are applicable throughout the Gaza Strip and the court indicated that this includes Rafah.
The South African government considers this to be the clearest indication that Israel must immediately implement all the provisional measures ordered by the court, which includes preventing the killing of members of the Palestinian group.
Causing their serious bodily or mental harm. Deliberately inflicting on the Palestinians’ conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

We will continue as South Africa to utilise the options available under the statute of the court, the United Nations Charter, and the entire multilateral system to ensure full and effective implementation of the International Court of Justice, ICJ’s order. Chairperson, one of the measures that hon members would recall, directed Israel to submit a report to the court on all measures taken to give effect to its order within one month of the order, that is on 26 February.

Should Israel be found to be in contempt of the court, South Africa will, as I’ve stated, invoke the Statute of the Court, the UN Charter and all bodies to ensure full and effective implementation of the existing provisional measures. So, we continue to act to seek action that is responsive to the
court’s order as the government of South Africa. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr B N HERRON: Minister, as you correctly pointed out, instead of halting acts that constitute genocide under the Genocide Convention, Israel’s military operations have now expanded towards Rafah. And since submitting the question just on Monday, this week, Human Rights Watch and other independent human rights organisation said that Israel continues to obstruct the provision of basic services and entry and distribution within Gaza of fuel and lifesaving aid. They regard this as an act of collective punishment that amounts to war crimes and includes the starvation of civilians as a weapon of war.

What we are seeing here is the defiance of Israel and the continued support of Israel from many nations, some of whom withdrew aid immediately after the provisional measures order was granted by the ICJ. These nations including Israel, have signed the Genocide Convention. They play sometimes an oversized role in peacekeeping programmes of the United Nations, support democracy and champion human rights across
the globe. But their actions in subverting the ICJ’s judgment seems to raise questions around hypocrisy.

If nations that claim to champion human rights and subscribe to the rule of law can ignore a judgment of the court that they already agreed to be bound by, what does this say about the value of the United Nations and the international courts? Should South Africa and developing nations still participate in a body where we are not necessarily regarded as equals, where some can do as they please without recourse or sanction?

Does multilateralism have a future if the ICJ is unable to order Israel to cease genocide and that order being implemented? So, my supplementary question is, what role does multilateralism play if this order is defied. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon Herron, although your preamble was quite long. Hom Minister.

think it is important to begin by saying, South Africa fully supports multilateralism. We believe this is the only protection that allows us to have a system of global law that,
should we all observe it, would protect us all. However, as we have said previously, particularly the United Nations and its structures and mechanisms are in need of reform. They’ve not been reformed for over seven decades, and there’s a great deal of work to be done.

So, I think as South Africa and as the National Assembly, we need to be given greater thought. What do we wish to see the Security Council become once reformed? How do we ensure efficiency, representativity? But also, how do we provide capacity to protect the weak, to protect the vulnerable?
Because what we are seeing is that members the Permanent Five, P5 in the Security Council, are really the countries that are appearing to be the greatest supporters and investors in conflict in different parts of the world.

This situation has to be brought to an end and it is only through dedicated measures of reform of the United Nations that we will have a multilateral system that doesn’t empower some and fail the many. This is what South Africa is working towards as we work with the global community to change the UN system, but also to ensure that we create the ability for all of us to be treated equally and to be protected.
We want a situation where economic rate doesn’t mean global power, but where we have institutions that equally address the needs of every citizen of the globe. That is what I think we should work toward to build an effective, efficient and responsive multilateral system. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mnu T S MPANZA: Asibonge, Sihlalo weNdlu.


Hon Minister, given South Africa’s recent urgent request to the International Court of Justice concerning military operations in Rafah, and the potential impact on the rights of Palestinians in Gaza. Could the Minister provide an update on the Republic’s diplomatic efforts to engage with international community and ensure a swift and effective response to prevent further harm and destruction in the region. Thank you, Chairperson.

Chairperson, I thank the hon Mpanza for that question. Hon Mpanza ...

... sisebenza kakhulu ukuhlangana nabaholi bamazwe amaningi ngoba sikholwa ukuthi abaholi bamazwe afana neNgilande neMelika yibo abangaqeda lolu daba lwase-Palestine.


So, we are working with all our colleagues throughout the world meeting them and persuading them, that it is within the interests of the globe for this conflict to be brought to an end. We draw attention to the suffering of the Palestinian people and we call in our meetings with them for humanitarian aid to be made available to the people of Palestine.

We have said to them that it is the most powerful, who are the closest friends and perhaps the enablers of Israel who have the power to bring this conflict to a peaceful end. So, we meet on a regular basis with all the countries that are closely related to Israel, to persuade, to engage. We also speak to the people of Palestine, get guidance from them as to the areas of emphasis that they would hope South Africa would communicate in its interaction with leaders in the globe. So, hon member, we remain engaged. We are aware of the various
discussions, and where we have the opportunity to intervene, we do so.

Mr S N SWART: Hon Minister, the ACDP appreciates what you said earlier, but we are concerned that the South African government has said nothing about Russia ignoring a far more serious ICJ order based on the same Genocide Convention, that Russia should immediately stop military operations in Ukraine. That nothing is said about that. However, we do appreciate that all we should try to achieve is lasting peace and at least the ceasefire in Gaza.

Therefore, hon Minister, what role is South Africa playing given its close ties with Hamas and its Iranian backers to persuade Hamas to agree to a temporary ceasefire based on that very order of releasing all the hostages which you referred to earlier, and which is part of the order and the lifting of the obstacles, for the provision of humanitarian aid. This seems to be the basis of the talks between the United States, US, Egypt, Israel and Qatar that are seeking to negotiate a pause in the war and the release of the hostages. Can South Africa, as the government not play a greater role in that regard?
Thank you.

Chairperson, I’m really a bit taken aback at the hon Swart believing fake news. The government of South Africa doesn’t have close relations with Hamas, or with Hamas’s backers. We have a normal relationship with Iran. I’m sure that is what he is referring to. A relationship of trade and which is not in large volumes.

I think it’s also important to point out to the hon Swart that the case of the occupied Palestinian territories cannot be equated with that of Ukraine and the war with Russia. As far as I am aware, there is no North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Nato country that is supplying arms to the Palestinian people to defend themselves. There’s not been a quantum increase in aid to Palestine to allow Palestinians to have food, fuel, water and energy in fighting this war. All the support of the countries that provide support to Ukraine is given to Israel.

So, you’re not talking of equivalents here. I think it is very important that we do not in one breath, refer to Palestine and the occupation by Israel and its onslaught and the other Ukraine and Russia. I do not regard the two as the same and I’m sure the hon Swart in the deepest heart of hearts knows
that the two are vastly different. An occupation cannot be equated to the sovereign infringement of the territorial integrity of Ukraine, as we’ve seen with respect to Palestine.

Indeed, we will continue, as I’ve pointed out to the hon Mpanza’s question that, we are diplomatically engaging with all the various stakeholders and of course one is limited in the ability to state exactly what the nature of that engagement is. But I assure hon members that we are seeking peace, we are seeking freedom and justice for the people of Palestine. I thank you, Chairperson.

Ms E L POWELL: Minister, it is common cause that the state of Treasury’s finances is utterly dismal, and our country’s economic outlook continues to worsen. In recent months, we’ve seen significant cuts made to frontline service delivery budgets. And we as a nation are struggling to fund the basics like schools, police and hospitals. The hon Modise earlier today said that our defence forces currently and I quote: “Looking for money to make sure that our boats can float nicely.”
Our country’s recent action at the ICJ was indeed an expensive exercise, relying on some of the most expensive jurists in the world. Minister, are you able to confirm to this House whether this litigation was in part funded by any foreign or external donors, organizations, governments or any other foreign interested parties? I thank you.


Chairperson, I am sure the hon Powell wishes that her fantasy that some other government funded the legal case South Africa brought, and that fantasy and fairy tale should be true. She is part of the believing of the allegations against our country because, of course, once you take up a case of this weight against very powerful forces that support the onslaught against innocent Palestinian citizens who have done nothing to kill anyone, a five-year-old child.

Similarly, the action of Hamas which we’ve indicated to the International Criminal Court, ICC may very well constitute a war crime and should be investigated. Any action against civilians is to be regarded as offensive. But the notion that our government is unable to bear the cost of this case that has been brought, is actually just an attempt to diminish the
important principled stance that the government of South Africa has taken on this matter. I am so proud to be a South African at this time, to have taken up the plight of thousands who have been killed for no ill by themselves whatsoever. And so, I assure the hon Powell that there has been no money from any sinister source provided from this case.

All that lies behind it, is the positive intent of the government and people of South Africa, to seek, to honour our obligation to others who supported us, that where there is oppression, we will strive to ensure that justice and freedom obtain. This is our sole objective with respect to the Palestinian people. There is no other sinister motive. I thank you, Chairperson.

Question 13:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Minister! The invitation is to take an opportunity to take a sit, if you want to, or still stand hon Minister. You are welcome to the podium.


very much, House Chairperson. Yes, accountability for
corruption is not exclusively limited to prosecutions. Asset recovery is crucial aspect in combating corruption. The Asset Forfeiture Unit has successfully restrained and preserved over R14 billion of state capture assets: R6,2 billion has been confiscated or forfeited; and R6,26 billion has been recovered, including the ABB Ltd case. An additional
R2,2 billion has been secured from the Agreement on the Conservation of Albatrosses and Petrels, Acap agreement, early this year.

South Africa is making progress in prosecuting high profile individuals and corporate entities involved in corruption. The pursuit of justice is becoming a reality, benefiting both victims and perpetrators. The government anti-corruption efforts have shown significant progress in recent years, with the SIU recovering R3,1 billion in cash assets and overturning contracts worth R18,3 billion through legal action.

They have also prevented R11,1 billion in financial losses through proactive measures. The establishment of the Special Tribunal in 2019 has expedited the recovery process for state institutions affected by corruption. With data analytics identifying high-risk sectors and common issues to provide
effective recommendations, the special Tribunal has improved efficiency by streamlining the recovery process, ultimately strengthening the fight against corruption in the country. I thank you.

Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, whistleblowers are critical in the fight against corruption. While legislative measures are in place to protect them, there are some gaps which have been identified in the implementation. What is government doing to protect whistleblowers, to address the identified gaps and ensure accountability from transgressors?

very much, House Chairperson? We have started the process where discussion document has been published, aimed to find a solution with regard to the gap or lacuna in our law that is supposed to protect whistleblowers. As the hon members will be aware, the current Witness Protection Act only provides protection to a witness who is already built to help the police and the NPA with the matter, who has already appended through an affidavit.
The current process of whistleblower discussion document is aimed to address that lacuna, so that it can also be extended to any South African or any person who provide relevant information. There should be a proper definition and measures to resolve any type of protection. But, secondly also, to look into issues of funding for the life of such whistleblowers, as recommended by the Zondo Commission of Inquiry.

So, the discussion paper is looking at all the options. We will therefore, in the 7th administration, look into tabling an amendment to the Witness Protection Act, to cover this aspect on the whistleblower protection. Thank you.

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. The question, to the hon Minister follows. Whilst strides have been made since 2019 to fight corruption in South Africa, with the completion of the Zondo Commission and its detailed report on corruption under the previous administration, which was a crucial step in exposing wrongdoing and creating a base for action.

The Corruption Perception Index has declined in recent years, meaning that the country is perceived as becoming more corrupt. Will the hon Minister agree that the slow pace of
justice, capacity constraints, inadequate protection for whistleblowers and the lingering culture of corruption need to be addressed before public trust in government could be rebuilt?


House Chairperson? As he does say, the index is on the basis of perception. The perception has also been enhanced by the fact that corruption was exposed for a number of years, through the Zondo Commission. There were a number of cases that were exposed through that process, including the recommendations. So, it is not surprising that that index and that perception will be looking as it is.

However, there is work, as I have said, by the Investigating Directorate, ID, to deal with the corruption’s recommendations from the Zondo Commission and in all aspects of the state, in terms of the legislations that were supposed to be amended.

With regards to the investigations: About 103 investigations have been declared; 37 cases involving 208 accused persons as of 31 January 2024; two convictions have been secured and seven court cases have been enrolled within involving 21 Zondo
Commission’s recommendations by the ID, while four cases enrolled by the NPA Special Commercial Crime Unit.

So, accountability for corruption is not only about these prosecutions, as we agree; it is also about the recovery of the funds. I have already given the funds that have been recovered. So, with all this work that the ID is doing in all other departments of the state, we believe that the dignity of the state and the issues of the perception will be reduced as and when the matters are rolling in the public eye. Thank you.

Adv G BREYTENBACH: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, the government fight against corruption, of course, also includes the party against corruption within the Department of Correctional Services. In the last five SIU reports in relation to the Department of Correctional Services,
67 referrals were made to the NPA. It was recommended that

35 officials be subjected to disciplinary proceedings for corruption and maladministration amounting to billions of rands.

What number of Department of Correctional Services officials employment has been terminated; and/or, how many have been
prosecuted as a result of these investigations by the Special Investigation Unit?

very much, House Chairperson. I think this is a new question. It is a new question, House Chairperson: The initial question related to state capture questions and its recommendations.
So, I will provide the statistics that she is looking for through a written reply. I can just generally state that there have been employees that have been dismissed on the basis of the SIU investigations. There are also those that have been referred to the NPA for prosecution, and we will provide that detailed information. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, Minister. Yes, indeed, it always helps not to load the question with statistics, because it becomes very difficult for a person to reply and if statistics are going to be sought, preparations have to be done there. But, we have the last question to attend to Mr McPherson, and the last supplementary question is from hon B J Mkhwebane.
Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, John Chapter 5, verse 19, says, “The son can do nothing on his own. He does only what he sees his father doing.” [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members, please. Order!

Adv B J MKHWEBANE: What the father does, the son also does! It underscores the principle of accountability and alignment with righteous action. The issue of CR17 Campaign documents and allegations of corruption, involving Ministers who benefited from this, raises concern. There are compromised state anti- corruption agencies who failed to prosecute Steinhoff and ABB. Instead, you allowed them to pay a bribe.

So, how can the government reassure the public to address the failures of holding the representative accountable? In other words, we want to know: What are you doing to make sure that the proceeds of crime in the Phala Phala scandal are also recovered, where are those dollars? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. Hon members, order. Order! You know, I was under the
impression that when matters of spirituality happen to come up, you would sit and listen, but it is just the opposite. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, you are at liberty to reply.


very much, House Chairperson. It is another ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, could you please take a seat? There is a point of order. Hon Manyi, what is your point of order?

Mr M MANYI: Chair, I want to call a point of order on you. When these hon members on that side are making noise, you tolerate it; but you don’t tolerate noise on this side. You are not being fair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Manyi, that is, that is not a point of order. When I say, “Order!”, I do not say, ‘members of the EFF order’, or I don’t point out to any party. I only say, “Order!”, and that order is directed to the House; not to a particular person. I am not prepared to converse with you, hon Manyi. I have addressed the matter. If
you have any problem with that, you know what processes to follow. I am not going to allow that. Shall we continue?

Chairperson, it is also another new question. It is related to the CR17 matter and so forth. The same Bible that the hon member is referring to, also states that it is blasphemy to refer to the Bible in vain. Please do not use the Bible for narrow political agenda.

The Bible should be an instrument that brings all of us together in a spiritual way.

The Hawks and the NPA are currently dealing with the Phala Phala matter. It is in our courts and a due process is being followed. If hon members have got any further information, they can approach them to do so. The Steinhoff matter is also on the table. The NPA and the Hawks are dealing with it. At the right time, they will be able to inform society in terms of progress on the matter. There is no one from the state who received a bribe in both matters – either for Steinhoff or Bosasa - not to prosecute anyone. So, the matters are being
followed up and they are being dealt with in line with the law. Thank you, House Chairperson?

Question 47:

very much, House Chairperson, to fully respond to the question by hon Horn, I want to give some background. Our department has always viewed the sexual offences courts as a priority. So that survivors of sexual offences are spared any form of secondary victimisation and trauma as possible in the justice system. The courts, therefore, have additional infrastructural facilities, such as separate waiting rooms at courts, measures for complaints to be able to testify away from the accused, intermediaries and court preparation services, and so forth.

Previously, these courts were established in terms of Ministerial Task Team on the Adjudications of Sexual Offences Matters, MATTSO, model in other words, in line with the specifications outlined in the report of the Ministerial Task Team on the Adjudications of Sexual Offences Matters of 2013. Since then, the designation of sexual offences courts was put into Sexual Offences Act in terms of section 55A as well as a provision that the Minister must put the services and
facilities available at these courts into regulation. The regulations were duly promulgated on the date and designated Sexual Offences Courts must now comply with these regulations.

During the period 29 May to 31 December 2023, from 2019 the department’s Annual Performance Plan set out annual targets for the establishment of Sexual Offences Courts, at 16 courts for 2019-2020 financial year, for 2020-21 it was 27 courts, for 2022-23 it was 80 courts and for 2023-24 it is 14 courts. As of 29 May 2019, the department had established 102 Sexual Offences Courts compliant with the MATTSO model specifications. As from February 2020 Section 55A came into operation and the requirements in the regulations came into effect.

The Minister was, however, not legally able to designate places of sitting as Sexual Offences Courts in terms of the Act, due to problems with the definitions of the regional court. Even that section 55A required further amendment to Sexual Offences Courts could be designed in terms of the section, but it might be highlighted that the former MATTSO specification courts continue to hear matters of sexual offences in terms of section 55A (5) of the Act.
The definition of the regional court is being amended by the Judicial Amendment Bill of 2023, which is currently with the President for assent. Further, during the period 29 May to December 2023, the department upgraded 98 courts in line with the Sexual Offences Court regulations, to ensure that survivors experience a victim centric justice system that is prompt, caring and effective. This figure includes 15 courts upgraded during this final year. As soon as the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill is assented to by the President, this upgraded 98 courts will be ready to become sexual offences in line with Section 55A, as I referred to above.

It should be noted that previously the number of Sexual Offences Courts was calculated on the number of individual courtrooms. Now they will be counted as places of sitting. In other words, the courthouse, as a whole, will be designated. This means that even in the number may appear lower, there will be in practice, more Sexual Offences Courtrooms countrywide, as designated courthouse could have many courtrooms to be used for these purposes. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr W HORN: Thank you, House Chairperson, yes, Minister, section 55A arrived more or less on the scene at the same time as you. So, what we know is that three months into your term you opened one Sexual Offences Court in Sibasa, where you stressed that to give specialised redress to victims through Sexual Offences Court is essential to treat these victims with dignity and to speed up justice to them. That was, of course, just after ... [Inaudible.] ... at the beginning of September 2019 after a University of Cape Town student was brutally raped by a post office worker said in response the 92 Special Offences Courts on the table already then be accelerated. Now if one listens carefully to your answer today, these targets, of course, have not been met.

We went full circle three months into your term, one court opened, and now three months before your term, one opened in Port Shepstone. Minister on your version in 2019, we must conclude that this government has failed in respect of the establishment of Sexual offences Courts. The only question is: Is it because you simply fail at your task or is it because this government does not care for the plight of the victims of sexual offences? Thank you.

very much, House Chairperson, the assertion by hon Horn is incorrect. As I’ve already stated that we have put such courts in terms of the current regulations, awaiting the Judicial Amendment Bill by the President. Once the President has assented to the Bill, we will put the 98 upgraded courts. And these 98 upgraded courts have been put and built in the period
29 May 2019 to 31 December 2023. I’ve broken them down in terms of year. Every year how many we have upgraded. As we speak, they are operational. They are there, they have been delivered. They have been operating also as those ones that operated as per the MATTSO specifications. They are also there, operating, and they have been delivered. So, we have not failed because the physical infrastructure is there, it is only awaiting the assertion by the President of the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill for us to make these courts to be in line with the new definition in the Judicial Amendment Bill. Thank you.

Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: My apologies, Chairperson, I’m just getting the question. Thank you, Chairperson, for your patience. Minister, on previous occasions you indicated that a framework on the management of case backlogs and priority
matters was being drafted. Has the department recorded any demonstrable results in implementation of this framework, particularly in Sexual Offences Courts? If so, what are those results? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, House Chairperson, indeed, it is a new question. But we have, hon House Chairperson, indeed, a priority process to deal with sexual offences matters. Hence, even during the period of COVID, the sexual offences were still proceeding in our courts with trials. As we speak today, hon Chairperson, the backlog has been significantly reduced and we can provide the stats to the hon member, to which extent. So, there has been significant work that has been done to help reduce the significant backlog that was there, but there was not a huge backlog that was built even during COVID because those matters continued to be prioritised. Thank you.

Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Thank you, Chairperson, Minister, you’ve indicated the number of MATTSO courts and those designated in terms of section 55. Well, for your information, as EFF, when we take over, we will make sure that we double the number of Sexual Offences Courts.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, Order, hon members!

Adv B J MKHWEBANE: So, Minister, the experience especially in the rural areas is not what you are saying, because a number of courts do not comply with these regulations, where the facilities need to meet certain standards. So, are you taking stock of all those courts and what processes have you put in place, whilst waiting for the President to sign, to make sure that there is an efficient and safe environment for sexual offences survivors? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, we all know that the EFF will only take over in the dreams of the hon member. The ANC will continue to govern this country.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members! Allow the hon Minister to reply to the question.


will continue to govern this country. The work that we have done regarding the infrastructure on the Sexual Offences
Courts is countrywide. It is not only in the urban courts. It is also in the rural areas, as you would have heard hon Horn referring to a court in Sibasa. We also have them across the country, in deep rural areas where they are victim-centric friendly. They can be used for all the purposes that have been put in terms of MATTSO and the one that have been put in terms of section 55A. They already exist countrywide. The only thing is we are awaiting the assertion by the President, but the physical infrastructure as I said earlier is already in place. It is being utilised in terms of the regulation and we are continuing to expand this program across the country, to make the courts victim centric and be responsive to the sexual challenges. We are also connecting these courts to the Thuthuzela Care centres which have also proven to be very successful in the network of the court system. Hence, we now have a 74% conviction rate in terms of GBV and also sexual offences matters that we are handling in our courts. As you are aware also with the processes of the DNA, the backlog has also been cleared. So, this also enhances the work of the courts. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, recognising the importance of awareness campaigns in combating
sexual offences, can the Minister elaborate on the department’s efforts to raise awareness about the existence and functions of Sexual Offences Courts? Are these specific initiatives, especially in rural areas, to ensure that the community is well informed about the role of these courts and the support services available? I thank you, hon House Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you House Chairperson, indeed, there is work that is being done. The department on its own host imbizos across the country. The last one that we have hosted was in Caroline in Mpumalanga. We also participate in the Presidential imbizos where we distribute information with regards to the work of the department, that also includes the Sexual Offences Courts, and the department also runs programs on the community radio stations through GCIS that also communicates the work of these courts.

We also run programs in the Thuthuzela Care centres, which also communicate the work of these courts. We also rely on other public reps and members of society to communicate the work of these courts and I believe, hon Msimang also does the same. We also communicate the message across the country through traditional leaders and councillors, and these courts do work and function. Also, the various law enforcement structures that fit into the courts communicate the same message to the people that are using these courts, including the experts like social workers, psychiatrists and all the relevant people. So, the courts do play that important role because of the public awareness that is made available and accessible to society. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister, the time allocated for the questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. Order! I request members to stand and wait for the Chair and the mace to leave the Chamber. That concludes the business for the day and the House is adjourned.

The House Adjourned at 18:08.



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