Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 27 Feb 2024


No summary available.



Watch video here: Plenary



The House met at 14:01.


The House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


(Draft Resolution)


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the House extends the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Committee on the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill has to complete its task to 22 March 2024.

Motion agreed to.

There was no debate.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Moved that the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly agreed to.



(Second Reading debate)


THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, members of the executive, hon members of the National Assembly, the hon Chairperson of the committee and hon members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, officials, ladies and gentlemen, let me take this opportunity as we debate today the report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration on Public Service Amendment Bill.

Hon House Chairperson, let me remind hon members that the ANC in its 55th National Conference took a resolution on legislature and governance to emphasize and strengthen the professionalisation of the public service in particular job management which is key to the delivery of services.

We would like to take this opportunity as we consider this Amendment Bill to clearly illustrate that the amendments in the Bill seek to address the policy reform commitments which the Department of Public Service and Administration has made over the Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, cognisant of the hon President’s commitment to address the findings of the Judicial Service Commission of Enquiry into the allegations of State Capture corruption fraud in the public sector, including organs of state.

The Bill seeks to professionalise the public administration and to address the necessary policy reforms informed by among others Constitutional Court decisions, particularly section 38 of the Public Service Act which was declared unconstitutional
for unfettered authority to the employer to deduct monies from employees’ salaries.

The Bill therefore proposes amendments to the Public Service Act to vest administrative powers directly on the heads of departments while ensuring proper oversight responsibilities with the executive authority in an effort to manage the political administrative interface. To provide for a more strategic role for the director-general in the Presidency to support the President and better co-ordinate the work of the public administration. To create a mechanism to manage a recovery of overpayments of remuneration and benefits. To provide clarity on the role of the Public Service Commission in respect of grievances. To clarify the role of the President and the relevant premier with respect to the appointment and career incidents of heads of departments.

Hon members this Bill is a critical step in a journey to ensure that the public administration is professionalised, efficient and responsive to the needs of the people of South Africa and is able to deliver on the mandate of a capable, professional developmental state.
To provide this clarity on the role of the President and the relevant premier with respect to the appointment and carrier incidents of heads of departments.

It is therefore for this reason that I wish to thank my predecessors the hon Mchunu, the hon Dlodlo, and the hon Nxesi, who led engagements and the necessary consultations. Also, I would like to thank the portfolio committee for the work that they have done over the last couple of months to get this Bill to this august House.

I therefore would take this opportunity to request this House and to propose that the Bill be passed. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Ms T MGWEBA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, the hon Noxolo Kiviet, the Deputy Minister, all hon members greetings. We debate this Bill at the time when the Sixth Parliament comes to its last lap. This is a critical Bill to improve our public service. The Public Service Administration Bill strengthens the inter-related functions within the public administration. It harmonises their interactions and clarifies roles.
The Sixth Administration has placed building a capable and ethical development state as priority number one.

Our government understand that many government priorities would not be achieved without a capable state that is professional and premised on ... [Inaudible.]

As the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration we welcome the tabling of the Public and Administration Bill which addresses weaknesses in the public service and strengthen the government’s co-ordinating and administrative functions.

House Cairperson, as the public service administration evolves, we will continue strengthening the rule of law governing the public sector.

The portfolio committee held public hearings and deliberated on various presentations from labour organisations, research institutions and the public. All these inputs have enriched the process of finalising the Public Service Administration Bill.
The committee thanks the participation of all stakeholders and the committee staff.

Hon members, the National Development Plan, NDP, articulates a vision of building a developmental state capable of driving the country’s social and economic development. The NDP focusses on the following objectives: Stabilising the political administrative interface and making public service and local government administration carriers of choice.

The President Ramaphosa responding and announcing the government implementation plan on the State Capture Commission Report stated that and I quote:

Cabinet has approved the national frameworks towards the implementation of professionalisation of the public sector and all public sector legislation governing professionalisation will be reviewed and mended to align with the framework.

The Public Service Amendment Bill legislates the recommendation of the NDP and proposal of the Judicial Commission on the allegations of State Capture and corruption
to strengthen the public service. Among the objectives of the Bill is the devolution of administrative powers from the executive authority to the heads of departments. Thereby aligning them with the Public Finance Management Act.

Hon members, this is critical intervention to address the weaknesses of the political and administrative interface. As the current Act empowers the executive accountability of the head of department or the director-general to executive member who provides strategic policy direction, and the administration implements policy. The executive member will have the parameters to intervene where a head of department fails to execute their functions.

This amendment harnesses and clarifies the roles of the executive and administrative functions to work in a complementary manner within their competencies.

Hon House Chairperson, this amendment will allow the Ministers and MECs to focus on strategic policy issues. The amendments further empower the Presidency and offices of the premiers who play a key role in managing heads of department carrier incidents including the appointments. This is in accordance
with the legislative responsibility of the executive authority.

Let me challenge all political parties represented in this august House to support the Bill as it prohibits an employee who participated in awarding of a contract to a service provider a 12-month cooling off period of accepting employment in such company or institution. This is a preventative measure by the government to reduce the risk of public servants who abuse their functions for personal enrichment and employment opportunities. Also, the Bill improves the procedure of the state recollecting funds of an overpayment of remuneration in a just manner which protects the employee. The Bill is therefore critical in strengthening the public service for stability and efficiency.

Hon House Chairperson, the strategic co-ordinating role of the Presidency is another key aspect of this Bill which will enhance the central co-ordination of the public administrative accounting authorities. This will enhance monitoring and accountability and the co-ordination and the coherence of policy implementation on the public servants who report the heads of department and the director-generals. The limitation
is rational on the basis that it only includes those who directly report to the head of department. This is just and seeks to protect the public service from any interference.

We are confident that the legislative intervention will strengthen our efforts to build an ethical state and demonstrate our determination to strengthen the state.

We call on this House to support this Bill as a commitment to the people of South Africa on our advancement for the professionalisation of the state. In the 30 years of democracy, the public service has developed vast technical and specialised skills and experienced public servants who continue to serve our nation. We must always critic, when necessary, with the intent of building. As the ANC, we are interested with a duty of building the state. This Bill helps us to do that. We support this, Bill. Thank you very, House Chairperson.

Dr L A SHREIBER: Chair, this House will recall that, on 19 August 2021, the DA tabled the End Cadre Deployment Bill before it.
As the name suggests, this Bill was designed to bring an end to this evil patronage system.

Over the past week, South Africans have again seen the need for this, as the DA exposed the ANC’s cadre deployment secrets.

The records of over 1 300 pages have revealed the biggest political racketeering syndicate in the history of our democracy.

Thanks to the DA’s Constitutional Court victory in this matter, we now know that the ANC has run our country into the ground from a WhatsApp group, where they pre-select cadres for deployment from a secret database, in-between making bad jokes.

Interference in appointments from the cadre deployment WhatsApp group includes critical institutions such as the Auditor-General, the Hawks, the Information Regulator, and Deputy Director-General positions in the Department of Justice and Communications.
In all of these instances, loyalty to the ANC is paramount to deciding who is “deployed.” I quote from inside the ANC’s own cadre WhatsApp group: “Please add the name of [redacted]. She has applied for the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, board. An activist of the ANC Women League and ANC. That will be our submission.”

Because of its desire to protect this racketeering syndicate, the ANC stood virtually alone when it voted against the DA’s End Cadre Deployment Bill back in September last year. But fortunately, the story did not end there.

Despite the ANC’s vehement defence of cadre deployment, the diligent officials who drew up the Public Service Amendment Bill before us today, quietly copied-and-pasted an entire section from the DA’s End Cadre Deployment Bill that bans those who hold office in political parties from being employed as senior managers in the administration.

The Bill also embraces the DA principle of devolution and the need to begin separating party from state, by devolving appointment powers from politicians and vesting those in heads of department.
Because the ANC has long given up on paying attention to the actual legislative work in Parliament, they never even picked up on the insertion of DA policy throughout this Bill.

It is indeed a metaphorical case of turkeys voting for Christmas.

The adoption of this Bill reveals that, beneath the ANC’s bluster, a rebellion is brewing in society against its corrupt cadre deployment system.

We see this rebellion expressed in the Public Service Amendment Bill today, but also in the Framework for the Professionalisation of the Public Sector, which explicitly calls for ANC cadre deployment to be scrapped.

We also saw it in the State Capture Commission’s report, which

confirmed that ANC cadre deployment facilitates state capture.


The DA not only supports the Public Service Amendment Bill for copying directly out of our End Cadre Deployment Bill, but we also recognise honest officials who have begun to openly defy ANC’s dogma on cadre deployment. This is a promising
development for our democracy post the 2024 election when the ANC will lose its majority.

Now Chair, to be sure: this Bill is not a silver bullet to un- capture our state from the clause of the cadre.

We still need to go much further to make cadre deployment a crime, to ensure that all appointments are based on merit, and to reform the Public Service Commission to enforce fair appointments throughout the state.

But the adoption today, right under the ANC’s noses, of the first elements of the DA’s policy to rescue South Africa from cadre deployment, could mark the beginning of the end for the cadres.

To the people of South Africa, I say: if you want to build on this historic adoption of DA policy even before we are elected into government, if you want to rescue South Africa from corruption, then on 29 May, join the rebellion against ANC cadre deployment, by voting DA. Thank you.
Ms R N KOMANE: Chairperson, the Public Service Amendment Bill provides for the devolution of administrative powers formulating authority to heads of departments to augment the roles of Director-Generals and to clarify the roles of public service in respect of the grievance procedures.

In the Initial Act, section 3(7) confers strategic powers to senior officials and clarifies the distinctions between the roles of executive authorities and heads of the departments but it does not provide a clear checks and balances to ensure that there is no encroachment if there are any, what measures has taken to address the form of political interference in the HODs administrative roles. By providing the roles of Ministers and MECs, as contained in section 3(7)(a) to (f), this Bill gives some level of certainty as far as roles are concerned.
Essentially, Director-Generals are the ultimate accounting authorities in departments. And having their roles clearly clarified, the power strengthen by legislation is fundamental to the strengthening of the Public Service.

Politicians must remain political heads but be removed from the day-to-day administrative functions, which must be the
sole responsibility of the official appointed by the Public Service

Chair, the EFF notes the new roles and responsibilities of executive authorities to focus on strategic management as it will minimise political administrative tensions as is due to exist in the Public Service due to the misalignment of Public Service Act and the Public Management Act. This in turn, Chair, ought to be aligned with the legislation on government public procurement to further delineate the roles of Director- Generals in as far as procurement is concerned.

Chairperson, because this government is very short-sighted, the EFF government will include position of National Framework on professinalisation in a Public Sector and it will fully be implemented across the public sector. That’s the EFF government. We need properly qualified, competent and corrupt free people in the Public Service. This can be well seasoned cadres and it can be people with no previous political involvement. What is central is that, it must be people whom are seemed with a strategic priorities of government and are prepared to respect the laws of the government and the management of the Public Service in the country.
We note section 10(b) of the Principal Act provides that no person shall be appointed to the post unless he or she is fit and proper. This is an important provision and we are in full support of employing only the best of the best in the Public Service. And unlike the racist in the DA, we believe that employing the best available talent is not in conflict within the requirement of the Employment Equity Act. For the racist, the best means to them is white. So, the best means, best of the best is amongst us. And these are found in plenty amongst the black population in this country.

Chair, it would have been very prudent to amend Public Service Amendment Bill with the Public Service Commission Amendment Bill to ensure that both Bills are aligned and do not leave any loophole. Public Service Commission should be the priority to administer the processes especially in the senior and middle management levels. Therefore, the EFF support this Bill. Thank you very much.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Angibonge Sihlalo ...


The IFP supports the Public Service Amendment Bill as we are in full agreement with most of the Bill’s objectives. Under the current government we have seen the unnecessary bloating of the department, which takes the majority of the budget and resources that have been made available by the Treasury.
Therefore, we agree with the Bill that we all need clarity on the role of the Public Service Commission.

However, we have to take a moment and question the Bill’s intent to provide for the devolution of administrative powers from the executive authorities to the head of department. Hon Chair, the executive authorities are placed in their positions on the assessment that they are a higher level of experience and expertise than any other position that follows below them on the hierarchical chain of command. Therefore, transferring the administrative powers from this position, one that is somehow lower ranking, should be accompanied by the necessary training.

The prioritisation of meritocracy is one that have proven to be lacking in our country as South Africans have to face the incompetence of various high ranking public officials on a daily basis. Where has this left our country? With failing
state-owned enterprises due to mismanagement and corruption, there is a reason why certain administrative powers are entrusted to specific positions. Therefore, we urge that the implementation of this objective is accompanied by the necessary measures to facilitate skills transfer.

Furthermore, I would also like to highlight the Bill’s objective to provide the mechanism to deal with the recovery of overpayments of remunerations and benefits. This is a factor that has yearly been a thorn in our country’s flesh. While this objective is amicable, we have highlighted the fact that it is once again reactive instead of proactive. There should be a greater emphasis placed on ensuring that we curb fruitless and wasteful expenditure rather than having measures in place after funds have been lost. The IFP support. Thank you.

Mrs H DENNER: Hon House Chair, the Zondo Commission highlighted several loopholes and short-comings in the Public Service such as improper political interference in government departments albeit through cadre deployment or by influence from political leadership, Ministers and those who work as officials, but also hold certain political positions mainly in the governing party.
This conflict of interest is as old as our democracy itself, maybe, even older. However, during the last few years, with reference to the nine missing years and thereafter up until now, this conflict of interest has become more a case of own and party interest trumping the interests of the people of South Africa.

The insertion of section 36(a) into the principal Act is therefore long overdue. During a question and answer session in this very House, the Minister of Public Service and Administration went as far as confessing that this is indeed a very big problem in the Public Service. And for once, we agree on something. She said, and I quote:

We have complained as citizens to say that those of the public servants who hold political office end up being masters at night and servants during the day because they report to political leaders, yet they lead those political leaders when they are outside of work.

That is where the conflict of interest is. Now, if that isn’t an admission of a long standing practice of putting party
interest above the interest of the entire country by ANC politicians or public servants, I don’t know what is.

Die nuutste oëverblindery wat deur hierdie ANC-regering aan die mense, die kiesers van Suid-Afrika, gevoer word, is dié van die sogenaamde professionalisering van die openbare dienstesektor en die bekamping en uitroei van bedrog en korrupsie in staatsdepartemente, maar hulle oggend en aandstories kom nie ooreen nie.

Hier is ons vandag besig met twee wetswysigings oor openbare dienste, beide ’n druppel in die emmer, beide te min te laat en beide wat deurgedruk word op die drumpel van ’n nasionale verkiesing wat oor 92 dae plaasvind, baie soos die Nasionale Gesondheidsversekeringswetgewing, die Basic Education Laws Amendment-wet en die verskerpte Wysigingswet op gelyke indiensname. Hoe lank gaan die mense van Suid-Afrika nog toelaat dat hierdie ANC-regering hulle ’n rat voor die oë draai deur met mooi broodjies in die pylvak voor ’n verkiesing te wil lyk of hulle ewe skielik hul werk begin doen?

Recently, this government has been on a drive to professionalise the Public Service and to apparently clamp down on fraud and corruption, often bred in an environment of conflicted interests that is deeply rooted within local government and the Public Service at large, which is created by the ANC itself. Hon Chair, I ask you: Why is it now necessary to professionalise the Public Service unless this is exactly what we have been saying all along?

The professional Public Service has been hijacked by the kleptocratic ANC and ruined by their conflicted interests, self-confessed by the Minister, and that was the Minister’s words not mine, to a place where they now, 30 years later, have to introduce a framework to professionalise the Public Service again! Again, it was professional ... [Inaudible.] ... bracket. No legislation will solve this problem.

Die enigste oplossing vir hierdie probleem is om van die kleptokratiese ANC ontslae te raak, sodat ons hierdie mooi land van voor af kan herstel en bou. Dankie.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP believes this Amendment Bill is a step in the right direction in ensuring the vision of the Public Administration that is professional, effective as set out in section 195 of the Constitution. Now, we all know that the State Capture Commission identified that the primary mechanism was state capture to be the strategic position of particular individuals in positions of power which was then used to gain control of public procurement and other law enforcement agencies.

Corrupt politicians and officials used appointment and disciplinary processes to remove law abiding public servants and replaced them with those who are willing to be complicit in corruption. We also know that broad executive powers of appointment and removal without effective checks and balances allowed patronage considerations to pervade public administrative personnel practices. This blurred the lines in the political administrative interface. This is what we see as cadre deployment at its very worst. The commission itself also highlighted multitude examples of this abuse.

We, as Parliament, saw that in the previous Parliament with Eskom parliamentary inquiry. If you read that Report that
Parliament accepted, it gives evidence of this. So, this is a step in the right direction which the ACDP supports. We believe that officials should be appointed on merit and we also believe that they should be true servants of the people who understand the concept of stewardship of state resources and that resources are not there to be stolen or to be misappropriated.

We also welcome the prohibition on senior public servants holding political office. This will also distinguish political and public administration roles and functions clarifying the political administrative interface. We also have studied clause 18 of the Bill, which deals with the recovery of remuneration that was wrongfully granted to an employee. We understand that this was as a result of the Constitutional Court ruling in the case of the Public Servants Association, PSA, versus the head of department of Gauteng.

This amendment aligns the provisions with the provisions of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and sets in place mechanisms to ensure that the rights of employees are not undermined. The ACDP will support this Bill. I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the NFP notes the Report that is Tabled here in terms of the Public Service Amendment Bill. Whilst the NFP will supports this, we do not believe that it goes far enough to deal with the challenges we face, particularly on the ground in terms of employment and appointment of office bearers.

Now, we note that this responsibility will fall under the head of department. Nevertheless, the question that arises is: Who will appoint the head of department? We know, where there is any political interference or intervention we will not get the people best suitable or fit for purpose to do the job. Now, the question is, Chairperson: Why can we not have an absolutely independent body perhaps from the private sector or mixed, private and public sector, to be able to take on the responsibility of identifying the most suitable candidate in every aspect and appointing them? That we believe is the only way you will get value for money and appoint those people that are fit for purpose.

We do know that this emanated as a result of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry, the challenges that we faced in the past and we welcome the fact that some measures are being put
in place. However, the question we are asking: Why not go further than that and close those gaps once and for all, so that we have people there that are fit for purpose? However, more importantly, credible and very importantly people that are independent and objective which can prevent the high levels of corruption and looting that takes place.

You can see the latest Auditor-General’s Report only having dealt with 170 of the 257 municipalities. What did they find? 5,19 billion goods and services that were paid for were not even provided for and not even delivered. So, we believe we need to go a little bit further than that. We will support this. However, I think at some stage, Chairperson, we need to look deeper into this thing. We know where the problems are. If we are sincere about dealing with these challenges, why deal with it in piece meal? Why not go there and have a comprehensive amendment?

So, once and for all we can eradicate this. Chairperson, you know, it appears that it is the only the ANC is involved in cadre deployment. That is not true, it is not true. All political parties, let me repeat, all political parties wherever they govern are doing exactly the same thing, no
exception. I think the only way to do this is for us to have an independent ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you very much.

Ms M M NTULI: Chairperson, Minister Kiviet, Chief Whip of Majority Party hon Pemmy Majodina, members of this august House and the ... [Inaudible.] ... at large, this Bill seeks to improve administrative systems and conditions and strengthening accountability. Public accountability is a critical principle of our democratic government. One of the key issues our public service should always support is what the Constitution prescribes in the Bill of Rights.

Protecting human rights is critical in creating a just and equitable society. All legislation needs to comply with the Constitution. In the circumstances of an employer and employee, various legislations prescribe the parameters of their actions.


Njengoba useke wathinta uNgqongqoshe, ngiyafisa ukugcizelela ukuthi kuye kwenzeke laphaya kuHulumeni kukhokheleke abantu ngendlela engahlelekile bese kufuneka ukuthi leyo nkokhelo ibuyiswe. Lesi Sichibiyelo siyakulungisa nalokho ukuthi
kubanjiswane umqashi kanye nomsebenzi ngoba sesike sabona ngaphambili kubuyiwa ezinkantolo lapho uMnyango Wezempilo laphaya e-Gauteng lapho kwakubhekene inhloko yomnyango nabasebenzi abathize. Ngakhoke lesi Sichibiyelo sizoyilungisa leyonto yokuthi imali kaHulumeni mayikhokheke, angalimali umsebenzi kodwa futhi ikhokheke kahle.


This amendment Bill also deals with a matter arising from a Constitutional Court judgment. Amending this Bill also fulfils a constitutional obligation and members of this House should make that a consideration when we vote for or against the Bill, and we appeal to all the political parties to vote for this Bill because it stands for all of us in this House across party lines. As political parties, we should be able to move beyond mere rejection hold critical engagements on the future of our nation.


Nike nisho nje ukuthi nani nisemsebenzini ngoba kukhona engicabanga ukuthi basamake kanye noma kabili ibhokisi lokuthi bayasebenza ngoba yonke into ebekwa kule Ndlu yeSishayamthetho bayayiphikisa.

The Bill seeks to clarify and strengthen the role of the Public Service Commission on grievance procedures to ensure there are more harmonised processes in relation to internal grievances in the provinces. Any workplace should have a suitable and conducive working environment which enables its staff to function optimally and execute their functions to the best of their abilities. We believe that improving the grievance mechanisms enhances work co-operation and ensures procedural fairness in addressing any grievance matters. We should continue to promote the spirit of Ubuntu in our society and the public service.

These are the everlasting values and principles which can hold our society together. The ANC has always protected and promoted the rights of workers. We live in a society with high living costs and a significant percentage of working people in debt. The recovery of funds should be cognizant of the financial position and should have the employees’ concert.


Lokho ebengikuchaza ekuqaleni ukuthi uma kubanjiswene akufanele kube khona odlova omunye, akufanele kube khona
osengaphansi komunye kodwa kubanjiswane kulo Hulumeni. Yebo, noma ... [Akuzwakali.] ... ingaphezulu, asilingane.

The amendment also further provides a definition amendment of executive authority, in line with sections 85 (1) and (2) of the Constitution that provides that the executive authority of the Republic is vested in the President and the President exercises the executive authority together with other members of the Cabinet.


Uyacacisa ukuthi awuphathi uphethwe. Uyaqhubeka nje ukuthi awuphathi uphethwe.

The proposed amendment is aligned with the policy of objectives which seek to clarify the role of the President as the executive authority with respect to the heads of departments.

IsiZulu: Bakwethu ...

... there's only one captain in a ship and ...


 ... kulo mkhumbi kalo Hulumeni wethu uMongameli u-Ramaphosa. U-Cyril Ramaphosa uyena inkosi yomkhumbi. Akekho omunye.


The Bill further makes provision for the authority to be delegated by the President to the Cabinet Ministers on matters relating to the appointment and career incidents of the heads of department. We support this Bill as the ANC because it will strengthen the functioning of the state through delegating and clarifying particular rules which are critical for the functioning of the public service and at a strategic level as tensions at a senior level of the public service or within workers can result in a lot of instability which can ultimately impact of the efficiency of public service provision.


Indawo yokusebenza ayisivumele sonke sisebenze sijabulile ukuze nomsebenzi wethu uzoba yimpumelelo. Ngiphinde ngifune
ukuthinta laphaya kuleli lungu elime lapha likhala lithi yonke into i-cadre deployment, amalungu e-ANC, izishoshovu ze-ANC nazo zinamalungelo futhi ziyizakamuzi zaseNingizimu Afrika, inqubomgomo yokuqashwa nabo yoHulumeni wosuku. Siyaweseka loMthethosivivinywa. [Kwaphela isikhathi.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon T Halse? It is her maiden speech.

Ms T HALSE: Hon House Chair ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can I protect the member who is making her maiden speech? Don’t intimidate her. She might run away, you know.

Ms T HALSE: I don’t get intimidated easily, thank you. Hon House Chair, on 1 June 1994, President Nelson Mandela signed into law the Public Service Act of 1994 to replace the Public Service laws prior to 1994. The intention of the Public Service Act was to provide for the organisation and administration of the Public Service of this Republic, the regulation of the conditions of employment, terms of office,
discipline, retirement and discharge of members of the Public Service and matters connected therein.

Little did he know that within 30 years into the newly established democracy, this legacy would be invalid, replaced once again by a Broederbond culture that we now know as cadre deployment. Little did he know that cadre deployment would reverse all social and economic achievements made by leaders who were morally and ethically invested in building ... [Inaudible.] ... South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Halse, can you take your seat please? There is a point of order. Hon Dyantyi? Hon members, order.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: Hon Chair, my apologies to the member on the platform, but if you are making a maiden speech, do not raise controversial issues. So now we ...

... ons sal nou kole gooi. Ons sal nou warm kole gooi ...


... if you are going to make controversial ... in your maiden speech.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chair, why did you allow Dyantyi to speak? On what point did he rise?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Dr Lotriet, are you also raising a point of order?

Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, I would just like to say that the question of offence is a matter of opinion and if the shoe fits, wear it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): That is not a point of order, hon Lotriet. However, we always encourage members who make their maiden speeches not to go on the offensive on the first stage. That is an encouragement. So, you can go ahead, hon Halse. Order, hon members. However, it is also not in our culture to dictate to people how they should make their speeches. However, as I’m saying, there are also notes that should be taken into consideration. Thank you very much.
Ms T HALSE: The ANC’s cancer of cadre deployment reached its pinnacle during the Zuma years when the Gupta family became a deployment committee within the Presidency, responsible for doling out Cabinet posts and executive positions at state- owned entities, SOEs. Where Mandela used the appointment of Deputy Ministers to build national unity, Zuma used these positions to install party loyalists, by so doing inflating Cabinet with 13 more positions.

To this day, the South African economy has not recovered from the devastation brought about by the Zuma era, yet the ANC’s current President Cyril Ramaphosa still thinks that cadre deployment is good for this country. Prior to 2009, the public sector wage bill ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Halse ... Hon members, please do not drown out the speaker. Hon Halse, do not go on the offensive. It’s not yet time. It’s not yet time. Don’t go on the offensive. There will be problems if you do so. However, I will again request members to not drown out the speaker. Hon Lesoma? There’s a point of order, hon members.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon members should address the President of this country accordingly, as hon President or Mr President.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The order is sustained. Let us address each other in respectful terms. It’s in the rules. Thank you very much. Continue, hon Halse.

Ms T HALSE: Prior to 2009, the public sector wage bill represented 31% of total government expenditure. Fast forward
15 years later and hon Ramaphosa’s new dawn, the bloated public sector is gobbling up even more money to pay salaries.

With no money to hire essential workers, qualified doctors, nurses and teachers have been forced to sit at home while queues at hospitals get longer and schools become overburdened as teacher to learner ratios are unsustainable. The ANC government should bear the full brunt of responsibility for the ineffective Public Service system and its negative impact on service delivery outcomes.

As included in the DA’s End Cadre Deployment Bill in 2021, which the ANC found undesirable at the time, the Public Service Amendment Bill now includes extracts from that DA Bill
that makes it illegal for any person who holds office in a political party to be employed as a professional civil servant in the state. This Bill, tabled in 2021, shows the DA’s innovative and swift response to the outcome of the Zondo Commission. The DA is in support of the Public Service Amendment Bill.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member. Hon members, may I have your attention? Please advise your members that during their maiden speech not to go on the offensive please, because when you do so you open yourself up to attack and reciprocation for what you are doing. It is just a convention. It is just a request, just to make our debates more robust or to have a flow that we want.
It's just ... [Inaudible.] ... so please. The hon Kibi?

Ms M T KIBI: Hon Chair, hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party, hon members ...

... kanye nezakamuzi zaseNingizimu Afrika.


Ek raak so skaam vir ’n persoon, wat op haar eerste dag hier kom en ... [Onhoorbaar.] te word. Sy kon toe nie sê wat sy moet gesê het nie, omdat sy al klaar gesê is wat om te sê.


Hon Chair, the people of South Africa will never vote in a government from Orania ...

Hulle sal dit nooit doen nie, want daar is niemand wat in Orania gaan nie. Hulle sal nie sien as julle daarin gaan nie. Hulle is ook besig om mense daar te deploy [ontplooi].

They even deploy their brothers ...



 ... om trekkers te bestuur. So, ons sal dit nie kan doen nie. Daar is niemand wat daar ingaan nie. As julle in Orania omgegee het oor die situasie van werkloosheid in Suid-Afrika, dan sal u ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Don’t drown the speaker, hon members.

Me M T KIBI: ... seker gemaak het dat u ook mense aanstel, om daar in u area te gaan werk.

Agb Schreiber, ek is tog baie jammer dat jy nou met hierdie issue [probleem] kom van die mense, wat key positions [belangrike poste] het in die


 ... in the political party. This is something that we are addressing as the ANC, but because ...

 ... dit is die enigste ding waarmee u hier kan kom, om seker te maak u kry votes [stemme] om in te kom as ’n government [regering].


The DA will never govern South Africa again.

U kan nou nie Kaapstad regeer nie.


Our democratic institutions enjoy varying levels of dependence and independence. This is informed by the institution's role and how it should relate to the public, other institutions, and authority at various levels of the state. This is a delicate aspect of the functioning of the state. Another critical aspect is how people in different roles in an institution should relate, an aspect which has been conflated and at times abused is the question of what constitutes executive and administrative authority. This is so as both have a strategic responsibility in policy development and implementation through their varying roles. If not sufficiently defined or conflated, it creates conditions of a conflict of interest or tensions within the strategic and senior leadership of the institution, having a spillover effect on the organisation.

It is critical that these roles are clearly defined based on their level of accountability. The heads of the departments are accounting officers of the institution. They are
responsible for ensuring the public administration executes its mandate through the development of plans, monitoring, implementation and ultimately accounting to the legislature or Parliament. Meanwhile, the executive is politically responsible for determining policy matters within the prescripts of the law and existing legislation. The executive authority also has leadership and oversight responsibility over the administration's execution of the mandate. This delicate relationship is critical for the success of any government department.

This is necessary for the checks and balances for the delineation of the powers between the executive authority and the head of the department, which has been provided to ensure accountability. The current Public Administration Act empowers the heads of departments by devolving certain functions from the executive authority to the heads of departments. The Bill provides the executive authority with powers to intervene in the event that a head of the department fails or refuses to fulfil its power or duty in terms of the Act. The provision is important as currently, a head of the department exercises administrative powers as delegated by an executive authority who may withdraw the said delegation in the event that the
head fails or refuses to perform certain powers or duties delegated to him or her. The devolution of administrative powers from the executive authority to the head of the department means that the executive authority can no longer withdraw a delegation and, therefore, necessitates a process to allow the executive authority to intervene where justified. The Bill further empowers the head of the department with the authority to appoint persons in a department. The devolution of this power is to ensure the alignment of the financial responsibility with human resources administrative functions which enables and executes authority to focus on providing strategic and policy direction.

Increasing the accountability of the accounting officer is critical to ensure consequence management can be effectively applied rather than a situation of confluence of roles weakening accountability. A major amendment of the Bill is the limitation of party-political leadership who are officials reporting to the head of the department. The term political office has been defined to reflect the decision-making echelon of political parties. Other political rights of the heads of departments and employees directly reporting to the heads of departments are unaffected by the amendment, and they remain
entitled to enjoy and exercise these rights freely. The purpose of the prohibition is in respect of a head of the department and an employee directly reporting to the head of the department. Thank you. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Faber, I have two monitors in front of me, that one at the podium there and this one here, well including my phone of course, there are three, so I’m fine.

Chair, allow me to first thank the hon members of this House for supporting the Bill entirely or the Act as being amended through the Bill. Let me in doing so also remind the hon Schreiber that his 2021 of coming up with their Bill is almost three years after the ANC and the Department of Public Service and Administration initiated the Bills that we will be debating today, so it is quite dangerous for one to cut his nose to spite his face, but I understand that desperate times require desperate measures and I won't go deeper into that. I will leave it at that as an effort of desperation.
Let me also indicate that the areas that the hon members have raised as areas of concern, such as the administrative powers, and administrative powers are what they are, administrative.
They have nothing to do with the political head of a department, hence the delineation. So, it shouldn't worry the hon members. The ANC will always act in the best interest of South Africa and will always lead society. I thank you, hon House Chair, and appeal to the House to pass the Bill. Thank you.

Debate concluded.


Bill read a second time.


There was no debate.


THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the report be adopted as it is reflecting on the Order Paper. Thank you.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




(Second Reading debate)


Chair, I am rising now on the established protocols. Allow me, House Chair, to indicate that the deliberations and the engagements that we have is at committee stage as well as in public consultations have brought us to where we are with this particular Act, the Public Administration Management Act.

The ANC state transformation agenda has clearly reflected in its 54th National Conference resolutions and still build a legitimate state that serves the interest of overwhelming majority, which is based on a democratic Constitution and a culture of human resources, which are humane and which uses public resources to better the lives of the majority especially the poor and subsequently the ANC government is in charge with the National School of government to play a
critical role in capacitating the employees in all spheres, which has played that role I must admit par excellence.

The National Development Plan addresses the issue of capability and capacity of the state as the two mean different things. Capability deals with structures, processes and systems and governance institutions at macro level. And the capacity deals with human resources and skills necessary for driving the state machinery.

As the ANC raised, the process has been made in transforming middle management in governance. And therefore, this Bill seeks to address that.

Hon House Chair, we have delivered on the mandate of the ruling party as the Framework for Professionalisation was approved by Cabinet in 2022 October. We are proud that we have not failed the ANC, has emphasised that a single and integrated Public Service is possible through enactment of this Act.

As the ANC was a bit concerned about the pace of the process, here we are today to deliver on the mandate. Recognising the
constitutional imperative that each spheres of government is distinctive, interdependent and interrelated, the Bill seeks to harmonise critical aspect of the public administration within an integrated public administration system that is accompanied by strengthened legislative governance and implementation framework.

The objective of the Bill is to improve state capacity to have the requisite to know how in terms of attributes such as skills and capabilities as well as the requisite value system to ensure fitness for purpose. It is to improve state capability by ensuring that at a macro level there are requisite enables and or platforms such as systems structures processes, government instruments, technologies and innovation to assist the people to deliver on their mandate in driving the machinery of the state. The Bill seeks to amend the Public Administration Management Act to provide for the transfer and secondment of employees from local government to Public Service and vice versa and to enable the mobility of skills to where they are needed. Whether in the municipality, provincial national government. And to ensure the highest ethical standard of Public Servants by prohibiting employees conducting business with the organ of state to the extent that
it is a criminal offence for employees to do so and prohibiting employees participating in supply chain processes from immediately being employed by successful service providers.

We are reconfiguring the National School of Government to provide education training and development to all spheres of government, including public entities to meet the needs of specific Public Servants to provide for the removal of unjustified imperatives in conditions of service of senior personnel across the Public Administration and to provide for better co-ordination of the determination of conditions of service for all employees in the public administration.

Hon members, this Bill is a critical step in furtherance of ensuring better co-ordination and service delivery across all institutions of the state. And again, as with the Public Service Amendment Bill, this Bill is a necessary step to ensure that the public administration profesionalise efficient responsive to the needs of the people of South Africa and to deliver a professional despicable developmental state.
Once again, hon House Chair, let me conclude by thanking the members of portfolio committee for the work they have done led by our able Chair, hon Mgweba. I request to the House to support the Bill.

Debate concluded.


Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting)

Ms T MGWEBA: House Chair, hon members, the Public Administration Management Bill was introduced on the 5th of May 2023. On the 7th of June, the portfolio committee started its process and undertook an intensive participation process with multi oral submissions from various organization in labour, academia, and the public. Their inputs have enriched the committee’s process. The department has also responded to public submissions and the portfolio committee was satisfied with the clarity it provided.

Hon members, the public administration must cope with the constant changes affecting today’s society and ensure citizens well-being. Consequently, public institutions must strengthen
their capacity to manage the unforeseen, namely, to become resilient to different shocks and changing conditions.

Hon members, the professionalization of public services, is a priority of the ANC-led government to improve the state’s capability. Our commitment to creating a better life requires a public service, which places the interest of the people at the centre of its program. The ANC believes that a single public administration is critical to use the state resources adequately and to ensure the three spheres of government function in a reinforcing manner.

The district development model is a mechanism to enhance this intergovernmental relation to ensure the government ultimately develops regional plans, which concentrate funds to meet local, social, and economic needs.

Hon members, making the public administration and governments more responsive to the needs of citizens is one of the most important pillars of the ANC-led government.

The Sixth Administration prioritized building a capable, ethical, and developmental state as priority number one. We
need more responsive and accountable public administration within the framework of democratic governance, the role of... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Excuse me hon

Mgweba ... [Inaudible.] ...Information and communication technologies, ICT ... [Inaudible.] ... for the help, hon Mey with his gadget to mute, sorry.

Ms T MGWEBA: House Chair, the role of public administration in governance is a continuing topic for discussion and debate. As public administration evolves, there are gaps in policy implementation and of norms and standards across the public sector.

The sixth government is gear to build a professional public administration. Building a capable ethical, professional, and developmental states begins with ensuring that the public administration, machinery, norms, and standards are aligned and strengthened to prevent any loopholes in the system.

In 2014, the President signed the Public Administration Management Bill into law. Over the past 10 years, the
government has been implementing the law, such as prohibiting public servants from doing business with the state. Through the oversight over the past years, the provision of public servants from doing business with the state was not yielding the intended results. More public servants continued to conduct business with other organs of the state.

Hon members, in strengthening the existing gaps in the act, the ANC-led government through the Public Administration Management Amendment Bill reviewed certain sections, such as the prohibition of public servants from doing business with the organs of state. This means that public servants will be prohibited from doing business with any organ of the state.

The Bill further aims to remove employment disparities, across the public administration and to provide for the mandating process for collective bargaining in the public administration. The legislative reforms before the august House would assist the government in uprooting any form of maladministration in the public administration.

Building a well-coordinated public administration begins with strengthening the laws through uniformity. And the Public
Administration Management Amendment Bill is structured in a way that local government powers are not infringed.

Hon members, the Bill also establishes the National School of Government as a national department to provide education and training to employees in all spheres of government includes municipalities and public entities.

House Chair, to manage the secondment of employees, the Bill provides that secondments contemplated in section 6 of the Principal Act should occur only when it is operational justified. This ensures that secondments would not result in deficiencies being created which hamper service delivery within institution. This is to prevent the abuse of secondment and ensure such decisions do not impact the effective functioning of the departments.

The Bill further makes provision for transfers to ensure the mobility of employees across the spheres of government to where human resource deficiencies exist, or operational requirements necessitate. This will enhance good governance and enable transferability of skills and resources where required. This is in line with the intention of the ANC to
strengthen local government in the main, by seconding officials and scarce skills.

By adopting this Bill, we will provide more levels for the government to strengthen service provision. We can confidently state that some of the problems impacting local government or state organs without requisite skills will be supported appropriately through secondments and transfers.

Over the past five years, we have observed the progress of the government, and we welcomed the decisive measures to reform the public service through legislative amendments. This is a sign of a government at work responding to the problem impacting the government. We support the Public Administration Management Amendment Bill. I thank you, House Chair.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: House Chair, the Public Administration Management Amendment Bill is a dangerous piece of legislation. Cloaked in seemingly technical amendments, the main implications of this Bill are consequential.

While some of the provisions do not appear problematic, such as the measures against employees doing business with the
state, the previous ANC speaker just admitted that the department has previously failed completely to implement the existing ban on doing business with the state.

But most seriously, the Bill is entirely undermined by the fact that it amounts to a power grab by the national government against the autonomous sphere of local government. The Constitution makes it clear that municipalities are responsible for managing their own structure and administration.

This Bill is in clear conflict with that provisional the constitutional provision. It seeks to redefine the national government’s mandate to incorporate all organs of state, including municipalities, using this sleight of hand, he Bill then unlawfully gives the national department of Public Service and Administration control over elements of the structure and administration of municipalities.

It gives the national government powers to interfere in the transfer of employees affecting municipalities. It extends the power of the national government over remuneration matters, affecting municipalities and it opens the door for future
amendments which we know are on the way to increase the national government’s control over municipalities.

The same power grab that contaminates this Bill is also contained in the draft Public Service Commission Amendment Bill. It is therefore clear that the ANC has embarked on a renewed drive to choke DA-led municipalities, which are the only local governments in this country that consistently over years have worked for the people.

The DA will not stand idly by while the ANC seeks to execute a silent coup against the few functional municipalities that remain. During the public participation process on this Bill, representatives from various local governments pointed out the inherent unconstitutionality. As usual, the ANC ignored such good faith warnings in its blind ideological drive for a
so-called single public service.


The ANC really should go and read the Constitution again. To see that there exists no provision allowing the national government to implement a single public service that grabs power away from provincial and local governments. Instead, our Constitution deliberately provides for three distinct and
equal spheres of government that can serve as checks and balances on each other.

This Bill is yet another expression of the fundamental difference between the ANC and the DA. As the ANC’s own cadre deployment policy puts it:

The ANC's goal is to seize control over all levers of power.

Its defining drive is to centralise, to capture the state and to subvert South Africa to serve only the ANC’s interests.

In contrast, the DA is the party committed to federalism and the devolution of power to the people. This principle is powerfully expressed in the DA-led Western Cape Provincial Powers Bill, which encapsulates our commitment to bring government closer to the people it must serve.

On the 29th of May, the voters of South Africa have the opportunity to reject centralisation built on state capture and cadre deployment in favour of DA good governance. The DA rejects the public Administration Management Amendment Bill, and we call on the local government sphere to mobilize for a
constitutional challenge against this power grab, against municipalities. Thank you.

Ms R N KOMANE: Hon Chairperson, one of the EFF’s seven non- negotiable cardinal pillars, is an open and accountable government. The public service is a central component of an open and accountable government, and the way public servants conduct themselves is a fundamental factor for enabling an open and accountable government. Amongst other things, this means that public servants must be preoccupied, in the main, with providing services to the public and not lining up their own pocket.

That this Bill seeks to strengthen the legislative prohibition on having public servants doing business with the state. We fully support this provision. People must decide if they want to be public servants or businesspeople. However, this must be followed by making sure that there are enough incentives to attract the best talent to the public service and keep them there.

This provision ought to have gone further, though, to ensure that public servants don’t do private business with companies
that do business with the state, because failure to do this will provide an opportunity for unscrupulous public servants to find other means of funding, to continue doing business with the state.

The EFF also supports the removal of employment disparities between the various spheres of the state. This, we believe, would ensure that the best talent the country has available works across all levels of government. We now know that local government spheres are deeply affected by a lack of properly qualified and trained individuals, leaving corrupt political heads to do as they please in municipalities, leading to a collapse in the service delivery, like in Rustenburg in the North West.

While there are these different spheres of government, the EFF believes that the public service is one, and ought to be treated the same, as far as making available the best skills to all our people. In this regard, we support the provision that seeks to ensure the transfer of staff across departments and across the different spheres of government, to plug identified skills gaps. This is a crucial legislative intervention and will provide for the secondment of staff from
one department to the other and from one sphere of government to the other.

However, we are uneasy with the powers given to the managers to decide on these transfers. We know how petty some government officials can be and that they may use this provision to get rid of people they do not like in their departments. The secondment of any official from one department to the other, or from one sphere of government to the other must only be affected after a thorough consultation process has been undertaken.

This must include a properly agreed upon basket of support for the employee to be transferred. And this includes accommodation and incentives such as transfer, which will be moving the employees far from their home and from their primary areas of resident.

As it stands, the Bill does not address the refusal of employees to consent a secondment, which may lead to unpredictable consequences or may also lead to abuse of power by senior management. This gives too much power to management, without even considering factors such as relocation and
others. Having said that, the EFF supports this Bill. Thank you very much.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, I would like to acknowledge the attempts by this Bill to eradicate corruption and ensure transparency within the public service. However, we share the concerns raised by the various organisations who submitted written and oral inputs regarding the potential gaps in the proposed legislation. The proposed amendment addresses the issue of public servants conducting business with the state, amongst other things. While the intentions are commendable, the IFP agrees with the experts who believe that these amendments fall short in certain critical aspects.

Clause 5 of this Bill attempts to clarify definitions and provisions related to the prohibition of employees conducting business with an organ of state. The concerns raised by the stakeholders shed light on the fact that the legislation may not adequately cover situations where employees, although not directors, are the ultimate beneficiaries of companies receiving tenders from the government.
In particular, we endorse the proposal to expand the amendments to explicitly state that the employees who are not only directors but also beneficial owners of companies, should be prohibited from doing business with the state. Such a prohibition, accompanied by criminal consequences and preventative measures, is crucial to closing existing gaps and ensuring the effective prevention of corruption within the public administration.

Moreover, we acknowledge the concerns raised by the Public Affairs Research Institute regarding “silent partners” and they are indirect benefits from business dealings with the state. We support the proposal to align section 8 with the Public Procurement Bill, disallowing individuals or any employee, including spouses from participating in procurement bids within the same institution where they are relatives.

This step is essential in harmonising legislation and addressing potential avenues for corruption. The revelation in April 2020, indicating that over 1 000 government employees were conducting business with the state, highlighted the urgency of robust legislation. We must continue to strengthen our legal frameworks to support these endeavours. I thank you.
Mrs H DENNER: House Chair, on Thursday, 9 March 2017, the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, as well as the Portfolio Committee on Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation of the Fifth Parliament issued a statement welcoming the push by government’s governance and administration cluster to fully implement the then revised code of conduct for public service employees, which came into effect on 1 August 2016. The most important feature of this code of conduct was the prohibition of public servants doing business with the state, by prohibiting public servants from doing any form of business with any state organ, whether in their own capacity as individuals or through companies in which they are directors. This was in 2016.

Fast forward to nine years later, where, today, we have to amend legislation in order to prohibit this practice, because certain public servants either don’t adhere to codes of conduct, or management in the public service does not believe in or are unable to properly implement consequence management for the contravention of rules, regulations, principles of good business practice or codes of conduct.
You cannot legislate good work ethic. We see that on our righthand side. You appoint good work ethic through a merit- based appointment system. That means that, when candidates for positions in public service are considered, a proven track record of good work ethic, experience and relevant qualifications, as opposed to political affiliation will be a good indication of the quality of an appointee. And you ensure good institutional work ethic by consistently implementing strict and fair consequence management, which is also a foreign concept for those on my right. Then we won’t have to make or amend laws to prevent our public servants from effectively steeling from the people of our country.

Nietemin, hier is ons nou. On is op ’n plek waar ons wette moet maak om goeie werksetiek en eerlikheid af te dwing, met geen waarborg dat dit sal werk nie, want eerstens kan eerlikheid nie afgedwing word deur middel van wetgewing nie en tweedens is hierdie regering nie bekend vir effektiewe, eerlike regering of behoorlike gevolgebestuur nie.
Waarmee hierdie regering wel goed is is die skep van skuiwergate. Soos die skuiwergat in hierdie wetgewing, wat nie sekondêre begunstiging uit staatsbesigheid verhoed nie.

’n Voorbeeld is dat artikel 8 nie behoorlik voorsiening maak vir werknemers van die staat, wie nie noodwendig direkteure van maatskappye is nie, maar steeds baat uit die winste van sodanige maatskappye. Daar word ook geen melding van sogenaamde “silent partners” [stille vennote] gemaak nie.
Altyd ’n skuiwergat, altyd ’n agterdeur en altyd ’n geleentheid om geld uit die staatskas te maak, hetsy vir persoonlike of partygewin. En dit is mos nou amper verkiesing.

Suid-Afrika het 42 staatsdepartmente, waarvan die oorgrote meerderheid nie behoorlik funksioneer nie.


By substituting section 11 of the principal Act with section 9 of the Amendment Act, the National School of Government is constituted as a national department to enhance the quality, extent and impact of institutions through training, in order to achieve the progressive realisation of a capable public administration that is development oriented.

Nog mooi praatjies.


No amount of training or development will be enough to transform this current public service into one based on good governance and proper work ethic. Yes, there are those who will benefit from it, but before cleaning up this current public service and this government, we will not achieve anything through legislation. The ultimate solution will be to get rid of the ANC, so we can rebuild our country. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the NFP notes the Public Administration Amendment Bill before us. There are two ways of looking at it. I know some of my colleagues are talking about the power that will be shifted from a particular local government to the national level. One may argue that perhaps this is to take total control of that. On the other hand, if you look at the other side of the coin, there is no doubt about it that local government, to a very large extent, had failed the people. Being the heartbeat of the delivery of services it has high levels of corruption and lack of
capacity. Did you not long ago saw the report of the standard of education of the number of office bearers and not forgetting the politicians in KwaZulu-Natal, and yet you expect them to deal with the integrated development plans and annual performances? It’s really and almost impossible to deliver the kind and quality of services if the people behind the desks themselves are not well-equipped.

I think to a very large extent the responsibility of appointments, employment and ensuring that particular employees are not doing business with the state, the local government had to a very large extent failed on that. I think it is important that we have a structure at national level to take away some of these responsibilities. In fact, we would go further to say maybe at some stage we need to consider whether we need a three-tier government which is as good as the four- tier government to the introduction of the District Development Model. Perhaps, we need a two-tier government, and we would be saving a lot of money in this country. It need just stringent measures in place to ensure that people that are employed have the capacity, the capability, the skills and they are fit for purpose. Also, is not forgetting the consequence management for those who fail.
I think to some extent this is a good Bill if it is used in the correct manner to be able to enhance the quality of representation that we have in terms of administration particularly at local and provincial level. But also very important, although it does not fall within the ambits of this particular Bill, is something we need to consider again. This is, what about the senior public representative positions that we are giving such as mayors, deputy mayors and speakers. Some of them don’t have the qualifications, the education, the skills or the integrity to be able to fulfil these responsibilities. Maybe at some stage we need to start looking at that as well so that we have people that can provide the necessary quality that is required in order to deliver services to the people.

On the issue of doing business with the state in particular, Chairperson, I can tell you that either you are ethical or not, but there are those that will find every other way to beat the system ... [Time expired.]

Ms S T MANELI: House Chair, Chief Whip of the Majority Party, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, one of the key tenace of building a capable developmental state that can
intervene in the market and deliver social and economic development is the people. Human capabilities are a central requirement. The public servant without the technical capability, experience and skills required to execute functions and realise the objectives of policies of planning fail. Without the necessary skills in Public Service implementation weakness arises.

One of the problems has been the inability of state organs located in rural areas not attracting skills due to distance from cities which impact the ability of such organs of state to attract and retain skilled public officials. The government sphere impacted by this reality is local government municipalities in rural and arid locations. This impacts their ability to generate revenue to attract particular skills.
Despite these constraints, over the last 30 years our government has developed skills within the Public Service. With many black public officials having high levels of educational qualification and experience this is a significant milestone. We should also recognise the impact of outsourcing the provision of social services which has resulted in the state’s lack of capability in key technical areas required for effective policy implementation and economic development. It
is for this reason that the ANC is focusing on building state capabilities to implement policies and provide social and economic services.

We welcome this Bill because it advances efforts to entrench meritocratic culture within the Public Service. Meritocracy is a critical aspect to ensure that we use the skills of our nation for our progress. The introduction of the professionalization framework is critical to place systems which will support a learning and developmental culture within the Public Service. It will also enable the deployment and redeployment of skills to various spheres of government to strengthen governance and policy implementation. The enabling of each of the professionalisation framework will enable the government to have the ability to attract and retain technical skills by enabling work environment which supports the development and career within the Public Service.

the National School of Government is one institution which is making an immense contribution in providing access to training and development opportunities for public servants, including senior and executive members. This effort should be channelled to harness innovation within Public Service to improve service
provision and execution of the constitutional mandate of the state institution. The reality is that we operate in a capitalist economy which has commodified aspects of human existence. The state, therefore, also attracts labour from the market. This means that the Public Service has to compete with the private sector for skills. State institutions also compete for skills within the Public Service. The Bill addresses the challenge of attracting skills that are scarce in the market through enabling varying remuneration packages in Public Service. This will enable the Public Service to have a just and differentiated system that takes into account various factors scarcity of skills.

House Chairperson, the professionalisation framework also seeks to embed succession planning in the Public Service. This will enable stability in the Public Service and promote professional development. The department’s efforts in supporting the Public Service Professional Association are also commendable. The Public Service should become an employer of choice and our citizens should find it an honour to be a public servant. The state’s identity and legitimacy are critical to develop a culture of Batho Pele.
The ANC has identified local government challenges as areas which require multiple intervention which will also include national intervention to ensure basic service provision are sustained and developed in communities. The Bill has an object to enable the deployment of officials across Public Service in order to optimise the state’s capacity and capability in various changing conditions which require the deployment or transfer of officials to another sphere of government without losing their remuneration condition. Contrary to what the hon Schreiber has just implied here, there is no power grab. This is an important intervention and government should encourage public servants in urban areas to also consider working in rural areas as the supply of skills is high in urban areas whilst it is low in rural areas.

Hon members, we are confident that with the correct vision and commitment to implement we can transform our Public Service to espouse the features of a developmental state.

Sihlalo weNdlu, abantu abaninzi abakhange bawulindele umhlola owenzeke kule veki iphelileyo. Besele kugqityiwe ukuba i-ANC ifile kodwa sibonile iMoses Mabhida igcwele ime ngeembambo
kugcwele naseThekwini ngokubanzi. Elethu ke, lithi, qhubekani niphuphe, thina siyi-ANC siyabuya. Enkosi, Sihlalo weNdlu.

Mr M NYHONTSO: Hon Chair, I am not debating.


The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, as you approach the podium from both sides, from my left and my right, please use these seats. From my right use this one from my left. Thank you very much.

Ms T HALSE: Hon House Chair, the Public Administration Management Act came into existence in the throes of the Zuma Ramaphosa cadre deployment era. Twenty fourteen was the time wherein South Africa found itself deep within State Capture. Something that continues to haunt public administration to this day. Despite the ANC trying its best to convince the nation that the Zondo Commission has exercised all evil and actual fact, what the Zondo Commission found was that it’s still present today is that the ANC and Parliament continue to protect their own, no matter the cost or controversy. The ANC majority continues to stall implementing recommendations of the Zondo Commission and has delayed where they can,
strengthening policy to root out corruption, cadre deployment and State Capture.

In the case, the Public Administration Management Bill, there are major flaws, some of which in fact, widen the loopholes to State Capture and corruption. One case in point, an amendment in Section 8 of the Act that will give power to the Minister to allow an employee of the state to do business with the state under certain circumstances. Employees can charge for work done as long as they’re not making a profit. While this provision appears harmless, it opens doors for municipalities to become the ANC’s personal card machines. This is an addition that fits right into the ANC state capture plans.
This will make it even easier to siphon funds from state by sidestepping the tedious tender processes.

The NSG in its legacy report could not substantiate any lasting or effective impacts that the school has made at present with evaluation of effectiveness, producing statements like the impact evaluation displayed that some of the participants would apply the knowledge acquired after training, or departments that sent the correct targets groups we’re more likely to observe immediate changes. None of those
statements are interventions that show that there was action. They are vague and not substantive at all. It is on this basis that we recommend that the NSG start playing its part in the fight against corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the Public Service by offering a wider range of courses or programs which are intended to entrench and inculcate a culture of accountability, professionalism, ethics and morality. Also capacitate and empower senior managers to effectively address and deal decisively with acts of corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the Public Service. The DA will not support this Amendment Bill.

Ms M M NTULI: Chairperson, Minister, Kiviet, Deputy Minister Kenny, Chief of the Majority Party, hon Pemmy Castellina Majodina, members of this august House and the House at large, this Amendment Bill is said to be ensured equity in the Public Service and Administrative justice and combating corruption.
Our Public Service should protect the interests of the workers, the public and the state constituting our national sovereignty. Co-operative governance is therefore ... in this department, a fundamental element of building a vibrant democratic state that considers the condition of its people and history.
The Public Administration Management Amendment Bill introduces new provisions to remove and eliminate unfair disparities in relation and conditions of service in the public sector, including public entities, and to provide for co-ordinated mandating processes for the determination of remuneration and conditions of service. The Bill provides for the Minister, after consultation with the relevant Minister and subject to the processing of the regulations to prescribe: Firstly, upper limits of the remuneration and conditions of service for certain categories of employees who do not fall within the scope of the relevant bargaining Council and secondly, steps to remove unjustifiable disparities amongst employees in the public administration provided that such steps must not reduce the salary of an employee, unless provided for an act of Parliament or a collective agreement. This provision will protect public servants from being placed in vulnerable conditions due to reduction income. The amendment establishes a committee of Ministers which must, in determining the mandate, take into account affordability and any other factor prescribed by the Minister in consultation with the Minister of Finance.
This is a critical to ensure all collective bargaining matters consider the country’s fiscal position to ensure financial sustainability while protecting the rights of workers and regulating them accordingly. A balance in the process is required to ensure the fiscal allocation supports the holistic objectives of government policy. These provisions aim to create better integration and co-ordination between the various institutions to remove unjustifiable disparities without eroding existing collective bargaining structures and processes or undermining the prescripts governing employees in the various institutions.


Uyabona ke lesi sichibiyelo siphinde sithinte kabanzi udaba lwenkohlakalo nohwaphilizo oludalwa amazambane abolile azifihle ku-Public Service kanye nezimpisi ezigqoke izikhumba zezimvu. Lesi sichibiyelo sigcizelela ukuba bangaphosi isinkwa ngenhla bese begijima beyosithatha ngezansi sesivokomele.

Sithi ke uma kade ungumsebenzi kulezi zinhlaka kodwa usushiyile ake uthi ngozololo okungenani ...

... 12 months of cooling period ...



 ... kulabo basebenzi abathinteka ku procurement of services and for service providers futhi bangatholakali sebegxuma beyosebenza ngaphansi kwabo labo abekade bebanikeze imisebenzi, kade kuyibo futhi ababanikile umsebenzi lowo.
Lokho kuyoba icala elibovu elinenhlawulo yesigidi samarandi.

Uhulumeni ka-ANC ulwa nenkohlakalo nokukhwabanisa uyiqonda ngqo. Azishe ke. Azishe kuwo wonke umuntu, nasi isichibiyelo sokukhipha amazambane abolile, sikhumule izikhumba zezimvu ezimpisini zisale nqunu zizibone ngosi. Abantu abangasesekeli lesichibiyelo somthethosivivinywa yibona bahamba nenkohlakalo isikhekhelembane.

Yabone le Amendment Bill iphethe i-phrofessionalisation ngesandla. Nantsi i-phrofessionalisation ilethwa uhulumeni ka- ANC ayilethwa ngo Shadow Minister. Iza ekukhanyeni, iza ibonwa yinoma ubani,

This is a critical intervention to address situation of a conflict of interest which can arise in procurement processes. This cooling off period will discourage public servants from acts of fraud and corruption. This, hon members, is just one of the six administrations interventions in addressing the corruption problems.


Sengishilo ngathi uhulumeni ka-ANC uyiqonda ngqo.


Corruption is not a government created problem, ... but it’s not created by government but a societal problem which requires societal effort to combat.

Sonke asibe la.



The ANC supports the Amendment Bill.



House Chair and hon members, I rise on established protocol
already. Let me start with a painful fact. A painful fact which has been displayed by the hon Schriber that actually the Democratic Alliance is concerned with power than dealing with the areas that the whole Bill is dealing with, anticorruption drives, good management practices and ... Their main concern is a power grab and I still have to see this good governance in Tshwane. Half of my life, I stayed there, but let me appreciate the support from the hon members of the EFF. Let me also appreciate the support from ... in fact, most hon members have just raised some areas of concern which the EFF has raised, the issue of consultation before the transfer, which is a normal cost in government. Nobody would be forced to be transferred. It’s not permitted but also hon Cebekhulu to say prohibition must cover all employees. I mean, that’s true and that’s what we’re trying to do with enacting this to cover local government. It is quite worrisome indeed and truly this issue of the choking, the DA-run municipalities for good gracious, this is a law that is going to cover the rest of the country. It can’t. We can’t waste five years coming up with a piece of legislation just to target a few. I do want to appeal to members to support the Bill, and I thank you.

Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).


There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.




(Second Reading debate)



K Morolong): Hon House Chairperson, hon Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Ministers and Deputy
Ministers here and on the virtual platform, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, ...

 ... bagaetšho dumelang. A ke tseye tšhono e go lebogela tiro e komiti ya kokwano-theo molao e e dirileng go fitlha fa.
Gompieno re amogela pegelo ya tiro e, le go tlhomamisa dikatlenegiso tsa yona.


Statistics SA is one of the most pre-eminent national statistics organisations in the world due to the robust nature of our data collection methods in keeping with international convention. However, this pole position role needs to be enhanced for the needs of South Africa, the world and humanity as a whole.

In its 2023-24 work programme, Statistics SA boldly confirms that statistics are a vital source of evidence as it provides objective and numerical data on important aspects of the country, including economic growth, job creation, characteristics of the population, social living conditions, health, education and crime, to mention just a few. This
indicates how Statistics SA is preparing and is prepared to achieve in its maturity and co-ordinating the maturity of our National Statistics System. A matured National Statistics System is far more important to achieve the principal task of the collection analysis and dissemination of objective and numerical data on important aspect of the country.

It is with these in mind that the Statistics Amendment Bill seeks to amend Statistics Act 6 of 1999 with the main emphasis on strengthening statistical co-ordination in the country. The amendment Bill makes provision for the development and implementation of the National Statistics System. It further provides for the establishment of statistics units within organs of state and the formulation of national strategy for the development of statistics. This responsibility will be charged to the Statistician-General and primarily set the statistical co-ordination system of the republic. The state organs will benefit from the methodology used for statistical collection and interpretation so that the administrative data can be upgraded to the status of official statistics when necessary.
The national strategy for the development of the statistics will, amongst others, achieve and enhance co-ordination of the collection and analysis and dissemination of objectives and numerical data on important aspects of the country and enhance the capacity of state organs.

We note that there is some sense of consternation with regard to clause 9 where we propose the deletion of others than private dwelling, which would mean the amendment of section 15 Act 6 of 1999, which currently reads as follows:

For the purpose of making enquiries or observations necessary for achieving the purpose of this Act, the Statistician- General or any officer of Statistics South Africa authorised by him or her may enter on any land or premises, other than a private dwelling of any organ of state, business or other organisation and inspect anything thereon or therein.

However, there is an important reason for Statistics SA to access the premises of individuals. Data collection in the social statistics programme primarily includes interacting with members of the households in their natural setting to also observe for data calculation.
Hon members, we are also aware of the safety concerns that many in our society have in relation to such access to their private property. Measures will subsequently be put in place to provide for the safety of data collectors and private property owners. Some of these measures have already been implemented through various census in the past years.

In summary, Statistics SA needs to access premises to enable identification of structures and determine purposes for use of such in order to maintain an up-to-date geospatial information frame. More importantly, lack of access to private dwellings may result in unreliable estimates as Statistics SA will not have a complete picture of the total number of dwellings on the ground.

Jaaka re kaile, ...



... Statistics SA ...


 ... se a gola. Ditlhokwa tsa rona tsa dipalopalo di a gola. Ebile tsamaiso ya go kokoanya, go sekaseka le go phatlhalatsa dipalopalo tse mo Aforikaborwa, go tshwanetswe go dirwa jalo go ya ka togamano ya naga. Ka jalo, molao ono o matlafatsa tiro ya mmalabatho kakaretso gore a kgone go fitlhelela ditlhokwa tsa rona tsa dipalopalo mo maphateng otlhe a merero ya leago le a ikonomi. A ke felele gone fa. Ke a leboga.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: House Chair, hon members, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation introduced the Statistics SA Amendment Bill on the 13 October 2023. As the portfolio committee we have prioritised processing this important Bill. The objective of this Bill seeks to improve the capacity and capability of Statistics SA in executing its mandate. It also helps to collect, produce and disseminate official statistics and other statistics. This is a critical mandate to advance any development in society. It is critical to enhance innovation and research in the economy. In essence, it improves scientific decision making which enhances human life and development.

The Bill the House is considering seeks to enhance the role of the Statistician-General in co-ordinating the statistics
ecosystem. As the portfolio committee, we have held robust discussions with various contentious matters ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): One minute, hon Dyantyi. Hon Lindelwa, kindly mute yourself. Please! You may proceed hon Dyantyi.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: ... and we have concluded those deliberations with the decision by the committee to support the Bill as it transforms our statistics ecosystem. We did receive inputs from public participation ... [Interjections.] ...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gabriel,
... ICT just mute all hon members from virtual platform because I think they are entertaining themselves now. Please! You may proceed hon Dyantyi.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: We did receive inputs from public participation process, mainly from SA Reserve Bank, which requested an inclusion that should enable it to access data. But we agreed that current legislation frameworks enable the SA Reserve Bank to access data without mentioning it by name.
The information regulator also made a submission which enhanced the committee’s consideration of the aspect the SA Reserve Bank has requested, which also concurred with the fact that the request of the SA Reserve Bank is covered in the current parameters of the Bill.

The Bill before the House is critical as it empowers Statistics SA to develop and implement a National Statistics System and a national strategy which will enable Statistician- General to have a comprehensive system which enables South Africa to harvest, disseminate data from and to the broader sections possible. In a period of big data and artificial intelligence, enhancing co-ordination and collaboration amongst data producers and data users is critical to ensure that Statistics SA is in the position of useful data which focuses on various sectors and facets of human existence.
Harnessing this collaboration will ensure that a conducive environment for information sharing is enabled, which will impact on the quality of statistics produced by Statistics SA enhanced decision making.

Hon members, over the sixth Parliament, we have made observations in our oversight over the executive regarding the
quality of information reported in measuring the performance of state organs. Many of the state organs focus on measuring outputs without measuring outcomes. We’ve called on to the executive to improve its measurements of performance through development of outcome indicators. This requires a statewide reform to adopt planning and reporting tools to enable quality indicators and statistical reporting. We’ve made an observation on the quality of spending in government and thus require an impact focus to advance the social and economic transformation of society.

The Bill requires state organs to have statistical units which will enhance government performance, reporting, and other statistical reports in various sectors. This will enhance the quality of data and the scientific basis of decision making.
We believe this Bill will also enhance the oversight functions of Parliament and public accountability as the culture of performance reporting is enhanced.

The Bill further creates parameters for the Minister to develop regulations, to make decisions on the presentation of certain states to be designated as official by the Statistician-General. This will enable strategic co-ordination
of state institutions to support the developmental objectives of the country. This is critical to also ensure the work of Statistics SA supports government planning and measuring key indicators of the National Develop Plan, NDP and the Medium- Term Strategic Framework, as well as various priority sector industries.

Statistics SA, therefore, is a national asset to propel our path to development. Statistics are critical and significant for the government for planning policy formulation, monitoring, evaluation, which are critical to enable agile interventions to ensure policy implementation.

We disagree with the notion of disempowering Statistics SA by not supporting this Bill and weakening it to undertake its function and access as many South Africans as possible in their various dwellings to ensure we improve our national data. In other words, we don’t want another Western Cape issue, as you would have reseen the Census 2022 where people can’t go into this house. There are issues of race and therefore there is under counting. We want to approve this and never go back to that.
Statistics SA has been an effective state institution which has respected human rights and work with law enforcement agencies to ensure its data collection does not make citizens vulnerable to crime. Amendment of clause 9 on the field workers accessing individuals is important and should be viewed in the interest of the entity’s mandate. We should also ensure where security concerns arise, collaboration with law enforcement agencies is required.

The committee adopted the Bill. We note the reservation of some of the opposition parties, including the DA that objected to this and the EFF that reserved its position. And we therefore - I speak for the committee, if you care to listen - I’m the chairperson of the committee and I speak for the committee. Therefore, it becomes very important because our key task as parliamentarian is creating legislation. We’re already far advanced as this sixth administration and we’re adding to that. That’s our mandate. Therefore, this Bill, as a committee ...


... sithi masiqhubeni...

... and agree to this Bill, so that we ensure proper planning and monitoring.


Enkosi, Sihlalo.


Ms S J GRAHAM: Hon Chairperson, at this glance, the Statistics Amendment Bill appears to be rather the nine pieces of legislation. The long title provides that the Bill seeks to amend Statistics Act through inter alia, additional definitions, provisions on the power of the Statistician- General and the development of the national statistics system to create an environment for integrated data gathering and quality statistics for data producers and users. What could go wrong?

Necessary demands to new definitions and technical clauses are an amendment under the title Entry on and Inspection of Premises. The principal Act provides the Statistician-General or anyone working on their behalf, permission to enter any land or premises other than a private dwelling and inspect there anything therein and thereon. This provides an element
of protection to landowners and individuals from Statistics SA’s workers having unrestricted access to their property.

The Amendment Bill, however, seeks to amend the Bill by removing the qualification of private dwelling which would then mean that any person employed by the Statistics SA is allowed to enter private property without permission. You will be forced to be counted regardless of whether you consent or not. The legislation extensively retains privacy protection by requiring Statistics SA to obtain a warrant to enter your property. But, as this warrant sought in chambers, it disposes of normal court rules and does not provide a person with any opportunity to defend their right to privacy. This is addition to the Bill to be so poorly drafted that it creates a loophole where a warrant becomes absolute. In other words, any person under the auspices of the Statististician-General, now has a right to enter any premises including the home of an individual. Your home.

During clause-by-clause deliberations, the DA raised concerns on the constitutionality of this particular clause. In so far as it directly infringes upon section of the Constitution or the right to privacy, including the right not to have the
person’s home or the property searched. Clause 15 contravenes this right as the person’s home can be entered with or without their consent and that entry may include the inspection of the premises.

Further, section 12 of the Constitution relates to security of the person. In this respect, the right to be free from violence, from either public or private sources is irrelevant.

While there are vetting processes employed by the Statistics SA when appointing field workers and other employees, there is no guarantee that these individuals that are not capable of violence and criminal behaviour. In fact, during the 2011 Census, one census worker was accused of sexual assault while another census worker in the same census was involved in another robbery and violence case when he stole valuables in a house in which he was conducting a survey.

In a country riddled with crime, particularly contact crimes such murder, rape and gender-based violence, it is inconceivable that owners or occupiers of private residences are not allowed to withhold consents for a stranger to enter their property. Criminalising the withholding of consent to
access a private home, this law puts vulnerable people including the women and children at risk of potential harm in their own homes for the purpose of data collection.

When these objections were raised in our portfolio committee, the responses by the ANC members were shocking given that they took an oath to defend and protect their Constitution. All ANC members present expressed their support for the amendment of the section 15 but the most telling display of ignorance of the power of our Constitution was when the Chairperson of the committee stated that the right to privacy should not infringe on this particular mandate of the state. In other words, government’s need for data carries a greater constitutional protection than the right to privacy.

This position has been endorsed today by the Deputy Minister. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Bill of Rights of our Constitution does not have a clause that speaks to the right of government to get information. Instead, it protects individuals from state abuse and section 15 of the Statistics Amendment Bill is a very clear example of the state abuse. The DA cannot support this Bill in its current and unconstitutional iteration. I thank you.
Mr M MANYI: Hon Chair, in the interest of time, the forthcoming EFF-led government will prioritize two critical areas of concern. Except for these two areas, Mr Morolong, we agree with everything else. Firstly, there is this clause 9 amendment of the Statistics SA Act, which you correctly articulated that it confers authority upon the Statistician- General and designated officers to access any land or premises, inclusive of private dwellings, owned by individuals, state entities, businesses, or other organizations, for the purpose of conducting necessary inquiries or observations aligned with the Act’s objectives. At face value this seems plausible. I will come back to this.

Secondly, there is another amendment that seeks to enhance co- ordination and collaboration among data producers and users, thereby cultivating an environment conducive to the generation and utilization of high-quality statistics within South Africa. Again, this sounds sensible, but I will address it.
Let us start by saying that, for us as the EFF, we unequivocally support co-operation with Statistics SA and its representatives. However, our foremost priority remains with the safety of our citizens. We do not compromise for the
safety of our citizens. We do not cut corners and do not share favours concerning the safety of our citizens.

It is untenable that despite reported incidents of individuals masquerading as Statistics SA officials and unlawfully gaining access to premises using Statistics SA attire and equipment, that we should enact legislation oblivious to this reality.
How could we? Why is the majority party so numb to the safety of the citizens of this country? Chief Whip of the Majority Party...


... nithi nina, izihange mazingene zisenze amaxhoba azo.


This is what you are saying. We argue that it is imperative to question the necessity for Statistics SA personnel to physically enter every household to obtain credible statistics. Why can’t everything be done across the gate to guarantee the safety of the citizens? We have got no problem to be accounted but we must be counted without compromising our safety. We advocate for a more discerning approach, wherein law enforcement assistance or court warrants are
sought when specific premises are flagged for irregularities, such as concealed occupants. So, we are not here to hide criminality, but we do not want to be treated as criminals and be exposed to danger. Some of these Statistics SA officials are not vetted for some of the serious offences.

This approach should be the exception rather than the norm. The proposition that these amendments must be rushed through because of the elections and will be followed by regulations to address these concerns does not provide any comfort whatsoever because we all of us here ought to know that regulations must be underpinned by enabling legislation; otherwise, they risk being unlawful. There are no shortcuts in this regard.

Regarding the proposed amendments concerning database sharing, the EFF urges caution, as unintended consequences could compromise the independence and hard-earned credibility of Statistics SA. Presently, when Statistics SA reports on anything, nobody questions it. However, if these amendments are passed in their current form, it means that there is a risk that future pronouncements by Statistics SA on unemployment rates, for example, may be met with scepticism,
as data may have been sourced from various other service providers, potentially undermining the veracity of the statistics. Why even venture into this abyss?

We envisage a truly independent and properly funded Statistics SA, which should in fact be a Chapter 9 institution. We cannot be at the mercy of politicians as to when statistics should be released.

Let me conclude, we implore this esteemed House, including the outgoing administration, to vigilantly protect the integrity of Statistics SA’s pronouncements. Without addressing these concerns, the EFF cannot in good conscience support these otherwise progressive amendments. Thank you.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Chairperson, Statistics SA stands as one of the very few entities that can be considered beacons of light, as they are often the only entity willing to provide the truth regardless of how it makes the government look. From the hard work done by this entity, we can tell the various levels of intervention needed concerning crime and murder and we are also able to deduct where and how the government has
lacked in keeping South Africans, especially women and children, safe.

Therefore, we welcome the Bill’s objective to make provision for the development and implementation of the National Statistics System and National Strategy for the Development of Statistics by the Statistician-General.

However, we found that it is worth highlighting one of the concerns raised by the minority views. In the existing Statistics Act, private dwellings are precluded from the absolute right of access, however, the amendment of Clause 9 of section 15(2) of the principal Act, will provide Statistics SA officials with the right to access private property for purposes of data gathering. Perhaps, the consideration of this Bill before the upcoming elections was a bit too rushed, as an amendment like this has the ability to impede on all South Africans’ constitutional right to safety and security, especially if the right data-gathering tools end up in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, when one considers the high prevalence of crime, this amendment does make one second guess its implementation.
Notwithstanding the comments made, the IFP supports the Bill. Thank you.

Mrs H DENNER: Hon Chair, legislative amendments are necessary from time to time, especially to ensure that our acts and statutes keep up with changing times and conditions.


Statistiek SA is een van die belangrikste departemente in die regering wat akkurate beplanning en begroting betref. Hierdie is ’n departement wat versterk en ondersteun behoort te word met genoegsame hulpbronne en finansiering om seker te maak dat data-opnames so korrek as moontlik gedoen word. Ons kan nie bekostig om ons skaars hulpbronne en ‘n kwynende staatskas op verkeerde beplanning te mors nie. Daarom word nodige wysigings aan die Statistiekwet verwelkom, in sover as wat dit hierdie doelwit ondersteun.


Legislation is also written or amended to address a certain evil, whether it be an inconsistency, a void, an ambiguity, or a question that needs to be addressed. However, once legislation is made or amended to force the will of the state
upon the citizens of a country without due regard for their basic human rights, as enshrined in the Bill of Rights, we are entering dangerous territory.

As we, in the opposition benches, know and have experienced during the past five years of this sixth Parliament and the previous terms leading up to this one, the ANC has no regard for either opposition opinions, views or contributions, or the input of the people of this country given through public participation processes. If it suits the ANC, they will push it through with their majority in committees and in this House, come hell or high water. You know I am telling the truth.

The statements such as, and I quote, “Although the right to privacy exists, it should not infringe on this particular mandate of the state.” Hon Chair, this statement is very worrying indeed.

As hierdie regering vertroue ingeboesem het, sou hulle nie met hul hande in hul hare gesit het weens mense wat al wat van staatsorgaan afkomstig is, met agterdog bejeën nie.

This of course refers to clause 9 of the amendment Act, which aims to amend clause 15 of the principle Act, by removing the words, “Other than a private dwelling...”, in essence giving any official of Statistics SA access to a private dwelling or premises. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): One second, hon Denner. Hon Jane, please! I will request the ICT to take out anyone who will appear without being recognised. You may proceed.

Mrs H DENNER: Thank you, Chair. This contravenes any owner of a private dwelling or premises’ right to privacy and in essence their right to security of person, especially in a country like South Africa under the ANC. Any Act or amendment Act made in contravention with the Constitution is invalid and therefore cannot be supported by this Parliament.

Indien die ANC meerderheid in hierdie Huis oudergewoonte hierdie ondeurdagte wetswysing instem en soos gewoonlik oor die stem van rede stoomroller, sal dit bloot verdere bewys
wees van hierdie regering se onvermoë om die belange van die mense van hierdie land voorop te stel.

Ons moet Suid-Afrika herstel en bou. Ons kan dit nie doen met ‘n selfdienende meerderheidsregering van skurke en skelms nie. Ons moet op 29 Mei ons kans aangryp en ontslae raak van die ANC wat geen agting vir ons basiese menseregte het nie.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! Hon members, I now recognise the hon UMD, ATM, GOOD, NFP – hon Shaik-Emam!

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, Chairperson. The NFP will support the Bill tabled here today, and I think we all know the importance of this particular structure, Statistics SA. In order to address the development or the future in the country, we need to ensure that we have credible data available. In order to have credible data, we need to have credible research team, who must be well resourced and must have all the tools of trade.

We know that time and time again, there has been a question mark over the credibility of the stats that is provided by
Statistics SA. However, there is no doubt about it that Statistics SA has repeatedly raised concerns about the limitations that they have, not only with human resource and the tools of trade, but financial resources as well.

We believe that this Bill will go a long way in being able to address some of this, including, but not limited to giving Statistics SA a little bit more power, broadening its terms of reference and ensuring that they collaborate with different institutions, in order to be able to acquire reliable data. In turn, of course, if used, that is the question we need to be asking ourselves: How often; and do we really take seriously the statistics or the data that is provided by Statistics SA preparing for the future and to deal with the challenges that we face in the country.

So, as the NFP we believe that. yes, indeed this is moving in the right direction, but we call upon government, particularly the National Treasury, to ensure that this particular structure – Statistics SA - receives all the assistance it can have, so that it could provide us with credible data. Thank you very much. We support the Bill.

Adv M R M MOTHAPO: Mohl Modulasetulo, Sefepisegolo sa mokgatlo wo o buiago le letsogo la gagwe, maloko a Kabinete ao a lego gona ka mo Ntlong, badudi kamoka ba naga ya rena ya Afrika Borwa ye botse, thobela.

Hon Chairperson, the development of any society is premised on data which informs the considerations, which should be taken in the development of resources and the consideration required to respond to a particular situation or problem. Statistics SA is entrusted with that duty to the nation, and we welcome the effective performance of the entity in executing this mandate.

We are confident that the entity will continue to provide reliable and quality statistics. Statistical data is critical for persons from various social and economic backgrounds. It also provides general knowledge. Our constitution places a duty on the state to promote equality and advance social justice.

Access to information is a right which requires the promotion of statistical data in all 12 official languages of the
Republic. Hon Chairperson and fellow South Africans, we need to ensure that Statistics SA has sufficient capacity and network to disseminate its findings to ensure increased usage and to respond to the social and economic needs of various social strata.

The mediums of distributing statistics are important to ensure access to the data. This requires Statistics SA to adequately use digital technology, social media, TV, radio and newspapers to be a source to communicate social and economic statistical reports continually. Statistics are a critical source of data for social and economic development, as they provide an assessment of the state of progress or measurements of particular indicators.

The recent Census 2022 Report is a critical source of statistical indicators, which will provide researchers, research institutions, multilateral institutions and other users with data, which assess the population of the country and the state of various social indicators, which focus on various basic services and areas which impact the human rights of all South Africans.
Statistics SA has over 200 statistical publications which should be sustained, and more indicators can be published if the situation if the institution is provided with adequate funding to increase its outputs. This can enhance the data available for the public and improve decision making and knowledge of various aspects.

The 2022 Census has demonstrated that Statistics SA has the agile capability to adapt its system and processes to respond to changing conditions through its digitisation transition, which lowered the cost of the census by over a billion rands due to the use of technology. However, the opposition will remain silent on that. Over the years, Statistics SA has been impacted by budget reductions, which have impacted its capacity.

Adopting this Bill will result in additional functions for the agency, which will require sufficient funding allocation to execute the legislative obligation.

Hon Chair and fellow South Africans, we call on the government to adequately resource Statistics SA, because without quality statistics, the allocation of resources in the economy and
decision making in the public and private sectors will be impaired. What the Bill also leverages is the duty of state organs to develop the capacity and system to collect and report quality statistics.

Indeed, hon members, we are on a journey to transform our society and the quality of life by improving all critical institutions that enhance the state’s effectiveness. Fellow South Africans, it is of concern to us that there are political parties, especially on my left, who do not factor-in the social or economic benefits of adopting legislation developed to improve our nation’s conditions.

They claim that the provision in the Bill, which enables field workers to access dwellings will infringe on the rights of citizens and threaten their security, although measures to mitigate against the risk are in place.

Let me refer to Western Cape issue, which the hon Chairperson has alluded to. We must remind the House that during the Census 2022, in the Western Cape in particular, there was a delay in the collection of statistics as residents refused
field workers access, while others chased Statistics SA field workers with racist connotations.

Therefore, we should ask ourselves whether the country should be disadvantaged from having quality data due to resistant premise on discriminatory conduct and unpatriotic behaviour.


Badudi ba ba botse ba Afrika Borwa, go a makatia ge lehono mokgatlo wa EFF, woo o ipotiago gore o emela badudi, o re lena ba Gomora, o re lena ba Juju Valley, o re lena ba Ramaphosa Informal Settlement le ba Winnie Mandela Park, le se ke la ba le maphelo a makaone, le se ke la hwetia ditirelo, ka gore Molaokakanywa wo o dira gore maphelo a lena e tle e be a makaone. Bjale, bagaditiong ba ba rena ba, ba na le rena.
Bagaditiong ba ba rena ba ... [Tsenoganong.] ... a makaone. Ke boseilakgaka-senwamoro.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mothapo! Hon Mothapo, your ear must listen. I have recognised that there is a point of order. The hon Radebe.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I am rising on two points: The issue that other benches were drowning the speaker; and also, Mama Khawula has uttered unparliamentary language, violating Rule 84 ... [Interjections.] ... by saying that the speaker on the podium has lied.

“O bua leshano!”


He said that.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Khawula, there is a point of ... [Interjections.] Members allow me, if I may.
Thank you. Hon Khawula, in terms of the Rule that hon Radebe has quoted, did you say the hon members is lying? May you stand up?


Nk M S KHAWULA: Awu kodwa Jehova ngivelelwa yini unyaka uphela! Ngike ngasho nini ngathi unamanga?


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngithe ...


... o bua leshano!


Angikaze nje ngithi unamanga. Angikaze.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon member! Order!


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngezwa ngadinwa we ...


The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members!


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngezwa kushisa umzimba. Angikaze ngisho leyo nto.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Allow me then to respond to what you have said. We appreciate your honesty, please withdraw. I understand Sesotho.


Ke tseba ho se buwa; ke Mosotho!





Nk M S KHAWULA: Hho, kanti kusho ukuthini kuqala? Ngizohoxisa.


Ukhuluma amanga.



Withdraw! Withdraw!


Nk M S KHAWULA: Oooh! Ngiyaxolisa. Bengingazi ukuthi kusho lokho.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, may we proceed, please. Hon member, you may proceed. [Interjections.] Ooh, there is another ...

Mr E MTHETHWA: Thank you, Chair. I wanted to find out: Whether it is parliamentary, first and foremost, to start with greeting only one side of the House and not everybody? That is unconstitutional and it is discrimination. Also, she is drowning us; she must not shout. [Interjections.]

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon member, you may be seated. Hon Mothapo, you may proceed, that is not a point of order.


Adv M R M MOTHAPO: Ke a leboga. Ge ke gopola ke dumediiitie batho kamoka. Go badudi ba naga ya Afrika Borwa ke re, le ba bone gore ga ba iie felo ka lena. Ba le nyaka fela ge ba nyaka le dira seka sa sefapano le ba boutela, ga ba nyake maphelo a lena e e ba a makaone, ka gore dipalopalo tie di tlile go re thuia - di tlile go thuia le mmuio wa rena go leka go dira dipeakanyo. Go le bjalo, tsebang gore boseilakgaka-senwamoro
le swanetie go ba hlokomela. Re a e thekga ... [Nako e fedile.] Re a e thekga re le ANC.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, statistical fragmentation usually melts down into duplication. This government consists of too many departments focussing on single challenges, while other issues are ignored and lead to a complete waste of resources. We have witnessed uncoordinated statistics driven by Statistics SA, with the government devoid of using such data to change the lives of our citizens. The departments and the institutions have conducted the statistics in their respective areas, but such data are insincere because it has not been translated into proper planning and service delivery. This will never happen under the DA government.

The police Minister has released crime statistics every year with shocking results regarding the increase of murder, gender-based violence, GBV, and other related crimes. I wonder, where are the measures that the ANC members are talking about? It is a disgrace and shocking that this Bill authorises the Statistician-General to enter on any land, premises or any individual with even the right to warrant.
This infringes on the rights enshrined in our Constitution,
and such power is tantamount to the increase of crime in the name of criminals hidden as data collectors and government officials.

The DA recognises the importance and protection of property rights. We respect the rights of privacy. This includes the rights not to have a person’s home or property searched, the right to defend any warrant and the right to deny access. This provision on the Amendment Bill fuels criminality. Should this Bill be approved, the ANC will expose our families, women and children to potential risks that falls under data collectors. If this government has to be responsive to real population census, it would not suggest that the next population census to be completed every 10 years opposed to the five years. The statistics is a vital tool on budget to provinces. This government lacks anecdotal evidence on real population statistics.

The undercount rate around 31%, the remoteness of the Northern Cape, North West and Free State and by Statistics SA’s own admission, has led to the adjustments that rendered the results unreliable. If the provinces had to receive their Quarterly Sebastian population statistics, immigration and
emigration statistics figures over five-year leg period, the results would lead to failure. The DA objects to this Bill. The people should not vote for the ANC that puts the lives of Tintswalo in danger. Under the DA government, we will use technology and sound methods instead of allowing the Statistics SA to invade our privacy. Vote for a caring government, a DA government that gets things done. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members. I now recognise hon Yabo. Over to you, sir. Hon Tseke ...

Mr B S YABO: Greetings, hon House Chair, let me also extend my greetings to the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. Now, we are dealing with a very scientific subject here, and common sense does not live up to the standard of science. Hon Graham seems to say that entering into premises is problematic, I then asked the question, why would the law-abiding citizens refuse the government to come into their premises? What are they hiding? Maybe we’ll find out once we are finalised with this Bill. We’ll find out what they are hiding in their backyards. The DA is used to throwing unconfirmed, unsubstantiated innuendo and accusations, and they like to do so thinking that
we will not challenge them on facts, but here, we are going to challenge them.

The DA decries crabby where the state must execute its job, but the same people go and publish details of individuals in records that they recently acquired. That is hypocrisy, it’s hypocrisy of the highest level. It tells South Africans to be very careful with that type of hypocritical behaviour. As usual, hon McGluwa said nothing. The less mentioned about his or hot air babbling, the better.


Gape dikgang tse re buwang ka tsone fano ke saense, ga se tshebo. McGluwa o tlwaetse tshebo.

The EFF sounds like ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Yabo, may you take your seat?


Rre B S YABO: Go siame, a re mo utlwe.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): What is the point of order? Order, hon members. May all of us share by listening to what the point of order is? Thank you. You may proceed.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, if the hon speaker would also when he speaks ... [Interjections.]

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Your voice ...

Mr W F FABER: ... when he speaks to our member, also addresses him as hon McGluwa. Thank you, Chair.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, thank you. Hon Yabo, please address hon members as Ms, Mr or hon. You may proceed.

Mr B S YABO: Thank you very much, Chair. The EFF sounds like a mascot of illegal cigarette smugglers who don’t want the government to enter into their premises, typical ice boy behaviour. If you ask me ...


... owaiii, ke basimane ba ba maminanyana.

I don’t want to even mention the FF Plus who sound like a DA kept parrot, regurgitating distortions with no shame. Shame on you, shame on you. The world is changing as innovation spears technological changes, which alters how we do things and think of things. Statistics SA functions in a fast-changing space, as information or data is commercialised, and data security is constantly threatened with the changes in artificial intelligence and machine learning, how data is collected, generated and disseminated is changing rapidly. As the digitisation grows and citizens have increased access to connectivity, they undertake ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Yabo, just take your seat? Over to you, hon Manyi.

Mr M MANYI: CHAIRPERSON, I rise in terms of Rule 83. In terms of that Rule, a member is not supposed to read things word for word.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon member. Hon Yabo, you may proceed.
Mr B S YABO: Hon Chair, I did say that it is science and common sense, I did say that. As digitalisation grows, and citizens have increased access to connectivity, they undertake multiple activities on internet powered platforms, depending on the statistical products of Statistics SA, social data can be extracted through web-based technologies. The Statistics SA Amendment Bill provision to expand the scope of Statistics SA, will enable the Statistician-General to develop requirements for the digital market to extract various industry data. We contend that Statistics SA should advance an open data sharing system in industries and promote the ownership of data by citizens.

This will enrich the data ecosystem and spare innovation. We believe that the experience of Statistics SA in conducting the census 2022 through digital devices, was the beginning of the future of more possibilities of leveraging technological innovation to increase the products of Statistics SA. We align this point because for innovation to occur, data needs to be accessible to enable innovators to develop products and services which responds to problems facing our country and its people. Therefore, we need to always understand that data is
critical for innovation, and that through innovation we can transform our society and the economy.

Any position that seeks to weaken data quality or limit data collection, weakens our national statistical system, and it negatively impacts on social and economic planning. These technological changes, hon House Chair, also require us to develop cyber security capabilities as a nation, as fake news and the proliferation of false information are high in digital platforms. Deep fakes. The creation of false digital content through the manipulation of voice and visual media through animation and specialised motion graphics, have become commonplace with the advancement of artificial intelligence and machine learning capabilities.

This Amendment Bill further strengthens the statistics ecosystem by emphasising the need to comply with the SA Statistical Quality Assessment Framework, SASCAF. It allows for the entities within the national statistics system to request assistance from Statistics SA whenever required. It is important to know that Statistics SA intends to play a proactive role in strengthening the national statistics system, and in future, our country will be able to boost,
having top-tier quality statistics which will also contribute to attracting investment as data enables investors to analyse various economic and social conditions which are required for their business interests.

Research and development will also increase in future, and the quality of data will improve the research outcomes. This Bill is critical because it places Statistics SA on a higher development trajectory, and it will also impact the production of statistics in government, which will also improve governance. Regarding the proposed new subsection 23, all the entities within the national statistics system are required to timeously ensure that statistics are designated as official by the Statistician-General.

This, hon Chairperson, reflects the intention of the amendment to improve the quality of statistics produced in our country. The ANC supports this Bill as part of the efforts to strengthen the state governance and economy of our country.


Re ka se bolelelwe ke bashimane ba ba maminanyana.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon member. I now recognise the Deputy Minister in the Presidency, hon Morolong. Over to you, sir.


Chairperson, you would have thought that the considerations that the DA is putting before the table are about the safety of the citizens of the country. I disagree profusely that they are about the safety of the people of the country. I believe that they are considerations about the fact that they do not want to be enumerated by black people, and this was evident during the last census, where the census was purely delayed because some of your members would not want to be counted by black people. That cannot be allowed. We will not allow ourselves to be distracted from the responsibility of governing this country by criminals and criminal behaviour.

If you believe that we should not have access to private wealth purely because of criminal activities, then you don’t understand the burden of leadership of this country. Let’s deal with what Statistics SA does to keep data collectors, communities and respondents safe. Let’s teach you what census does. For regular household surveys, Statistics SA has a
permanent field workforce. For periodic surveys, those field workers are appointed and undergo a vetting process before they are being appointed. Statistics SA has developed an online field worker verification tool, and a toll-free number can be used for verification of field workers. All field workers carry an ID card and all the cars used for field work are branded.

Publicity is conducted to create awareness on any upcoming survey, data collection exercise and to gain access. The gatekeeper level publicity is conducted within representatives of different settlement types, farming unions, pharma representatives, community leaders, traditional leaders and the police. So, the notion of lack of safety is a cop out and must be treated with the disdain it deserves. I thank you.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Hon members, order. Hon members, that concludes the debate. Are there any objections to the Statistics Amendment Bill being read for a second time?

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

objections shall be recorded accordingly. The Bill is agreed to.

Bill read a second time.


The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon members. The Bill shall be sent to the National Council of Provinces for concurrency. Thank you, hon members. Order. Hon members, you are kindly requested - I think that I must use that word very carefully - to stand and wait for the Chair and the Mace to leave the Chamber.

Business concluded.

The House adjourned at 16:57.