Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 06 Dec 2023


No summary available.


Watch here: Plenary 

The House met at 10:00.

The House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, moved: That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, for the purpose of conducting the Second Reading today on the: Eskom Debt Relief Amendment Bill; Public Procurement Bill; Adjustments Appropriation Bill ; and National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill.

Question put.
Motion agreed to.



There was no debate.


The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Question put.

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.



(First Reading debate)


Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, fellow South Africans, the 2023 Eskom Debt Relief Amendment Bill seeks to amend the Eskom Debt Relief Act 2023, so as to provide for the payment of interest
by Eskom on amounts advance as a loan. Also, to provide for power for the Minister of Finance to reduce the amounts for Eskom in the event of noncompliance with conditions and to provide for matters incidental thereto.

After the presentation by the Minister of Finance on 1 November 2023, it was then referred to the Standing Committee on Appropriations for consideration and report to the National Assembly. In processing the Bill, the committee had input from the Financial Fiscal Commission, the PPO, National Treasury and Eskom. Public hearings were also held to ensure civil society participation in law making process. Laws which are going to affect them.

Hon members, the Debt Eskom Act was approved by this honourable House. The Act was meant to assist Eskom to reduce its indebtedness, reduce their debt service cost and by so doing, strengthen their balance sheet. It became clear to government that it was not going to be possible for Eskom to meet its debt obligations on one hand and be able to provide reliable energy on the other. It was also aimed at allowing Eskom to prioritise critical maintenance of its existing fleet.
There was R350 billion in government guaranteed debt which was at risk of default, a contingent liability and added to the sovereign debt by Moody’s and the IMF. The Eskom Debt Relief Act appropriated R254 billion over the MTEF. Just to remind the hon members, we stressed then and we are stressing in this report that, this intervention cannot be a blank cheque for Eskom to do as they please. Therefore, strict conditions were attached to the debt relief. These conditions were meant to deal with the problem of moral hazard. They were also meant to foster accountability from Eskom and allow Parliament to play its oversight role. For instance, one of its conditions is that Eskom may not use proceeds from the sale of non-core asset for capital and operating needs. All these proceeds must be used for the debt relief arrangement. The debt relief can only be used to settle debt and interest payments. There were many other conditions that were attached.

A stick and carrot approach was used. While this money was to be advanced as a loan, it would be converted into equity once the conditions have been met. What is new in this amendment Bill, hon members? The Bill before the House introduces an interest in the Eskom debt relief package to better reflect the cost of this arrangement, with a market related interest. While also striking a delicate balance between ensuring that
the interest charges do not take a negative impact on Eskom cash flows, while reflecting a fair market related rate.

Hon members, please note the difference between the Act and this amendment is that in the original arrangement of the debt relief was going to be interest free. This is the gist of this Bill before you, hon members. This intervention by government is meant to enhance sustainability of Eskom. The third quarter economic results released yesterday showed that the economy has contracted by 0,2%. Unfortunately, both primary and secondary sectors mean agriculture and manufacturing also contracted. Analysists blame loadshedding for these results.
Eskom is too big and too important to fail. The impact affects all sectors of society, hence the intervention. It is very important to always have conditions for intervention.

Just like Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, and Cosatu, we also encourage municipalities to take advantage of the debt relief package by Treasury. Currently, 67 applications for debt relief have been received, which constitute about 97% of the total Eskom debt. Hon members, this will also assist with cash flows.
Lastly, we urge the Minister and the board to move with speed to appoint a permanent qualified CEO to steer this titanic and create stability. We edge the hon House to adopt the report.
As the ANC, we support it because of the importance of Eskom. Have a safe and enjoyable festive season. I thank you.

Declarations of vote:
Dr T D GEORGE: Hon Chairperson in February, the Eskom Debt Relief Bill provided for direct charges against the National Revenue Fund of R78 billion in 2023-24, R66 billion in 2024-25 and R120 billion in 2025-26, comprising of R40 billion direct charge plus R70 billion through a debt takeover arrangement.

A total of R264 billion that increases in the third year. That increases for debt that becomes due in 2025-26 that Eskom can't service. We don't know what is still coming down the track because the Minister hasn't given us the bailout numbers beyond the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.

What ever happened to your tough love Minister? And why don't you tell us about the bailouts that Eskom will get in 2026 and beyond? We do know that Eskom has attracted staggering amounts of debt from everywhere can possibly borrow by selling premium interest bonds to anyone who will buy them, including billions in dollar denominated bonds.

We also know that investors are getting increasingly nervous because Eskom is bankrupt and its ANC sponsor currently hiding from the sheriff of the court knocking on the door at Luthuli House is on the brink of political collapse. Having brought South Africa to the brink of financial collapse with it.

These investors are nervous because as much as they like to believe that buying bonds from Eskom is risk free, there is a risk premium precisely to compensate for the now very high risk of these investments. There is not enough space on the national balance sheet to accommodate the debt mountain that Eskom is teetering on, and that is why government hasn't transferred all of it.

As a result of governments failed economic policy, our economy is not growing anywhere near its potential, and our gross domestic product, GDP declined by 0,2% in the last quarter.
The failure at Eskom is a primary cause of this economic meltdown.
The Pretoria High Court has ruled that the ANC government breached the Constitution and human rights of citizens by failing to run the power system properly. The Minister himself has said that corruption at Eskom is so endemic that it cannot be resolved.

A new model is needed. The DA would unbundle and restructure Eskom in a staged approach to establish a diversified competitive generation sector that could include a number of independent generation companies. Eskom should get out of the generation business as far as possible, and a rationalised electricity distribution industry built with public and private sector partnerships.

The remaining transmission entity of Eskom should become a standalone independent transmission system and market operator as set out in the DA's comprehensive Energy and Electricity Policy position. In the meanwhile, the DA gets things done while the ANC government dithers.

The Western Cape government's journey to end rolling blackouts in the province is well on the way with the plan for 5700 megawatts and the Hessequa pilot energy project is on track to make Riversdale the first load shedding free town in South Africa.

On Friday, taking a cue from Eskom’s debt relief scheme, National Treasury announced that it issued Transnet with a R47 billion guaranteed facility, effective immediately. The ANC has also broken our railways and ports. Transnet has an existing dead card in the region of R135 billion which attracts interests of approximately R13 billion per annum. This is an exact replica of the Eskom playbook and battling South African households are expected to pay for it. If government did not waste the people's money on a broken Eskom, Transnet and other state bankrupt state owned enterprises, it could very easily cut the tax and levies on fuel, increase the solar panel rebate, increase the child grant to the poverty line and expand the zero value-added tax, VAT rated basket of food to include boning chicken, beef, tinned beans, wheat flour, margarine, peanut butter, baby food, tea, coffee and soup powder.

Eskom is driving more food off the tables of hungry households. We might not know what is coming down the tracks from the ANC induced energy crisis. What we do know is that the DA blue machine is powering up on the tracks and ready to charge like a bullet train at the weak and crumbling ANC, so desperate to cling to its disillusioned voters that Gauteng Premier Lesufi promised to write off Eskom’s debt without any plan and any possibility of implementation. Just more empty promises.

Government doesn't care about battling households and is making everyone poorer by wasting our money on the likes of Eskom. Next year, the people will show you how much they care about you. We do not support this Bill. Thank you.

Mr S O R MAHUMAPELO: Hon Chairperson, I did not want to disrupt the latter speaker. The hon Gauteng Premier’s surname is not Laisufi, his surname is Lesufi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): That is most certainly not a point of order. Hon member, could you please proceed.

Mnu M MANYI: Madiba, ingxaki yethu ...


... is monkey tricks, we just don't want to be played. We just want honesty and integrity in the whole process. For us, Chairperson, the EFF will reject this Eskom Bill because in essence, it's not even a debt that we're giving to Eskom, it’s actually a bailout. This is what this is about. Just a bailout.

The political motive behind the Eskom bailout is not meant to address the Eskom debt that has become the biggest threat to South Africa's fiscus and economy as a whole. Instead, the so- called relief is meant to send a positive signal to the market rating agencies. This is what it's all. But the more treacherous and betrayal to the people of South Africa is to pretend you are giving Eskom relief so that you can stabilise electricity supply when in reality you've got all kinds of conditions attached to this bailout that frustrate Eskom.

This Bill should be called Eskom Bailout Condition Bill. It is not a relief. It is conditions that we're dealing with here.
This Bill is going to give Eskom something like a total of about R180 billion over the next three years where the Minister must determine the conditions of this of this so- called debt.
One of the bailout conditions is that Eskom’s capital expenditure is restricted to transmission and distribution. So basically, you are here to enable the independent power producers, IPP's. This is what this is about. The other condition - this means that Eskom cannot develop new generation capacity when we've got generation problems. The other condition is that the debt relief can only be used to settle debts and interest payments. Those kinds of restrictions, and you say you're helping? Practically what this means Chairperson is that Eskom cannot address the core problem of generation, we need new and additional generation capacity.

Effectively, National Treasury’s conditions to Eskom prevent the national utility from securing baseload electricity generation and supply, which is in coal and in new generation. The National Treasury’s conditions of Eskom, clearly articulated in this so-called Eskom Debt Relief Act, and its amendments prevent has come from ending load shedding. It's a crisis that the Minister is creating here.

We were told by the Secretary General of the ANC that loadshedding will be ended in December. This past week we were on Stage 6, and we are already in December and it's not true that load shedding will end in December. We've got lying people all the time. Even with government agreements that the conditions attached the bailout and Eskom are part of the problem. We are still told that we'll be on Stage 3 and 4 until Friday, which can change at any time.

As the EFF, we reject this Eskom bailout, particularly its conditions and political motive. Our solution to challenges of load shedding is first and foremost securing base load electricity generation and supply, which in this instance is coal.

Nuclear hydroelectricity and conversion of gas into electricity. In fact, Minister Mantashe is very clear on this matter. Just listen to Minister Mantashe on what needs to happen. Your problems will be solved. We must give municipalities conditional grants that look for great solutions. We must extend the Koeberg nuclear power station license for an additional 20 years, especially now that the permission to restart unit one has been granted.

These and many more solutions are what the EFF is proposing, but we don't have time and this democracy is robbing us of time, but our people are accepting that only the EFF, working with South African professionals in the energy sector will end load shedding.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chair, once again we find ourselves amending the same as completed problems as last year, the year before that one and five years before. To be quite frank hon Chair, I could have stood here today and said the same speech I did a few years ago and the content will still be very much relevant.

This shows that the same challenges remain in Eskom, and we are debating the same solutions allocating more money while we know for a fact that Eskom’s challenges are non-financial in nature. Eskom’s problem as structural and deeply immersed in corruption, greed and governs failure to implement practical solutions.

The constant allocation of money has proven to be a failure. Instead, it remains a practice enabling looters to continue emptying state coffers while many South Africans are losing their livelihood because load shedding is forcing businesses to close their doors.
House Chair, one of Eskom's core mandates, like all state- owned enterprises, SOE's, is to provide employment opportunities, but instead it's doing the opposite of that. Instead of developing skills, we see many of our engineers leaving this country for better opportunities abroad.

Chairperson, the problems at Eskom are manmade and carefully crafted to ensure deliberate total collapse of this entity. I say this because time and time again, the IFP stood here and called for government to prioritise public private partnership, however, our call has fallen on deaf ears. Our practical solutions have been ignored by the ruling party.

This could only be because the government wants to keep Eskom in the dire state and collapse this entity. Chairperson, how much more will it take for the ANC led government to listen to South African’s plea for a stable electricity supply? How much will it take for this ANC government to care for the people of South Africa? Perhaps, when there's absolutely no more money left to be passed around.

House Chair, allow me to inform South Africans that nothing will ever change as long as the ANC is at the helm of this country. South Africans who want to see change, who wants to see their hard-earned money having value, must vote this party out because it has shown beyond doubt that it can no longer lead us, and it will never provide solutions. Thank you, hon House Chair.

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, let's say there's a company out there that owes its creditors R423 billion. Let’s say that company made a loss of R24 million in the last financial year and let’s say the solution is then a debt-free or rather an interest-free loan to that company. However, it doesn't solve anything because the company is producing less and less of its product and it also fails to get any of its debtors’ money in. So it's in a financially unsustainable position. It's bankrupt and we would all agree that the only solution for that company is to close it down, to liquidate it, to sell off its assets and to get rid of it.

However, this government’s solution now is to just provide or put interest on the first solution of the so-called loan, which Eskom is not able to repay because they already owe their creditors R423 billion. Their product is less and less, they have less and less revenue but yet government’s solution is to provide a loan that they won't be able to repay. So, it's a bailout. Now we get this nonsensical amendment Bill
that just provides for interest on that loan. The Act in itself ... [Inaudible.] ... did not provide ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Wessels, there’s a point of order. Can you take your seat please?


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I'm rising on Rule 84. I don't think that the work which is done by parliamentarians is nonsensical. I think that is unparliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can I refer you to Rule 85, hon Wessels? ... reflections. In terms of Rule 85, no member may impute improper motives to any other member or cast personal reflections upon a member's integrity, dignity or verbally abuse a member in any other way. So, to coin that as nonsensical by Parliament is a bit ...

Dit is ’n bietjie ... [Onhoorbaar.]


It’s too hot. So please ... allow it.

Mnr W W WESSELS: Voorsitter, laat ek dit dan anders stel. Die wetsontwerp, die wet wat oorspronklik in hierdie Huis in Februarie gedien het was twak en hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp is twak. Ek hoop dit help.

Dit gaan nie die probleem oplos nie. Hierdie wetsontwerp los nie die probleem op nie en mense ly daar buite. Besighede maak toe ...

Ms N P MAHLO: Chairperson, hon Ntlangwini is drinking coffee in the House. Is that allowed?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: How do you know it's coffee? What if it’s water inside the coffee cup?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, please be in order. Hon member, you raised your hand.

Adv M R M MOTHAPO: Hon Chair, I rise in terms of Rule 84. Hon Wessels used the word twak [nonsense]. Is it acceptable?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, it is unparliamentary to use offensive, abusive, insulting ... Hon members, I am ruling. Can I get your co-operation please? Can I get your co-operation so that we don't repeat the same mistake. Rule 84 says that no member may use offensive, abusive, insulting, disrespectful, unbecoming or unparliamentary words or language, nor offensive, unbecoming or threatening gestures. Hon members, the essence of this is that we be respectful to each other. So, let us not use words that are going to unnecessarily create conflict. Dr Lotriet?

Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, I would, however, just want to express my concern. I know it is not specifically a point of
... [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can you move closer to the microphone, please?

Dr A LOTRIET: ... but I think this whole thing should also be referred ... what is parliamentary and what is not, because we are now running the risk of being offended by every little word and then it is unparliamentary. So, I think we have to be very careful of the road we are on now. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chairperson, my understanding of the work twak is ... nonsense, and in
terms of the framing of the word in the sentence that he used, it is parliamentary. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I still want to advise that we refrain from using words that have the potential of creating conflict. Members, please!


Lalelani bantu abadala ...

There’s a lot of noise in here. There’s a lot of noise in here. There are times when we use words that are not necessarily unparliamentary but words that are unacceptable. Can we try our best to avoid that? So please ... [Inaudible.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Chair.



Ngifuna ukubuza la uqonde ukuthi mangithi “nonsense” angikuthuki futhi angikudeleli? Mina ngeke usho kimi uthi “nonsense” ngizokushaya.


Chairperson, I don't want to challenge your ruling but what I want to bring to our attention in the House is that we have a long programme today. Let's not waste time. Let's allow the proceedings to continue. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. I'm appealing to you, hon members. Let us not fan conflict where it’s not necessary.

Sizogcina sitshelwa ukuthi sizoshaywa namhlanje.



So, let us not do that please. Hon Wessels, please continue.


Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you, House Chair ... [Inaudible.]


Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, but Chair, the leader of this person speaking at the podium gave us a useless lecture last night about how the leader of the EFF ... [Inaudible.] Why is he not doing it to this guy?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maotwe, in the first place I did not recognise you. Please don't do that. Hon Wessels, please proceed.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the failure of Eskom is not an issue that should be discussed or debated light-heartedly. It affects millions and all South Africans out there. It is responsible for the decline and decay of our economy, and it is something that the governing party and government should take responsibility ... It is something which needs solutions, not just an Act and bailouts and an amendment Bill. It needs real solutions, partnerships and the unbundling of Eskom to get power out there, to get power going and to get the economy going again. This Bill does not provide real solutions and therefore the FF Plus rejects it. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, this Bill seeks to convert the R254 billion Eskom debt relief package from an interest-free loan to one that will bear interest. Now, the debt relief package had the effect of substantially increasing government debt as well as debt service costs which are already spiralling out of control. The ACDP doubts whether Eskom will now be able to meet these additional financial costs. We and many of you members participated in the Eskom inquiry in the
last Parliament. We know what was at the heart of the rot at Eskom. It was the ANC government. It was admitted by yourselves in the Zonda Commission. So, let's accept responsibility and see how we can address these issues.

If one then looks at how Eskom is to meet these additional financial costs, it's situation has deteriorated markedly, with it reporting the largest ever financial loss at the end of October ... a staggering loss of R24 billion up from R11,9 billion last year. That's double the loss. This, as individuals, households and businesses are devastated by the worst year of load shedding on record.

In this regard, the ACDP welcomes ... at least the courts are now coming in to try to assist, with a full bench, which is three judges of the Gauteng High Court, saying that power cuts are as a result of Eskom and the government's failure. That's what the court said. And that the blackouts infringed on the basic rights of South Africans. The court ordered that essential services like hospitals, schools and police stations be exempt from load shedding. Now, the question is, how is that court order going to be implemented given the dire situation facing Eskom? While the country experienced lower levels of load shedding recently, this seems to have been
short-lived and we are now back to those higher levels of stage 6. It seems the reason for that is because Eskom has depleted its diesel budget to run the open cycle gas turbines. This is aggravating the situation.

So, tens of billions of rand in bailouts are given to state- owned companies, SOCs, without much improvement in operation. Now we see a R47 billion guarantee to Transnet again; a further bailout that we cannot afford and where we don't see operational improvement. These ongoing bailouts cannot be afforded. It is time to change. It is time for a new government to implement changes and lasting changes for Eskom and other entities. It's time to vote for the ACDP. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr B N HERRON: House Chairperson, from 2019, Eskom has received R181,600 million in bailout in order to keep the state supplier from collapsing. In addition, we have reshuffled leadership, introduced the new ministerial position, and attempted to keep Eskom from sinking, following years of capture and mismanagement.

The Eskom Debt Relief Bill, while addressing fiscal accountability and responsibility in relation to the debt
relief, must be part of the state’s attempt to address our

electricity crisis.


The people of South Africa have invested heavily in order to keep the lights on, and despite this, the lights are not on, nearly enough. In return for our investment, which is both financial and goodwill, we are entitled to transparency from the supplier about its recovery. This recovery is essential to every South African and the economy and South Africans must be able to see exactly, where the energy supplier is being upgraded or restored.

Eskom’s long term issuer credit rating has been upgraded to ‘B’ from ‘CCC+’ with a stable outlook on the group’ senior secured and senior unsecured debt. With standard and poor, S&P’s Global ratings upgrade, it is essential that government takes every step it can to protect Eskom’s financial position and reduce its risk of any default.

And with Eskom financial risks and uncertainty improving, we must focus on transmission constraints and generation. We are in desperate need of new supply, so much so that at one point we declared a state of disaster. It’s our new generation is growing at snail pace.
The handling and implementation of various strategies such as energy deals with Mozambique’s Karpowership and renewable transition at Komati Power Station, have been haphazard, slowed implementation and some have efficiency to cost ratio problem.

GOOD urges that the debt relief in conjunction with the financial injection from the jet key is used as a means to transform and stabilize our energy generation, transmission and supply. We support the Bill. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, the NFP will support the Bill tabled here today. Whilst we may not agree with what some of the hon members said in this House, it’s very easy to come here and say let’s shut it down, close it. Are we thinking about the implications, the impact? Exactly what will happen? And the question we need to ask for those that saying shut it and what are you doing about it? Yes, government has initiated renewal projects, the DA has in the Western.

But what have other parties done wherever you govern, to ensure that we put some measures in place because economic growth depends on energy supply? So, we should commend those that are doing something about it. And I think it’s a message
to the others, you too do something about it rather than coming and complaining about it.

Now, I have a very serious concern, House Chairperson. And my concern is, I know I hear a lot about global warming, the high levels of emissions. But we’ve also heard that renewable energy alone will not be able to provide the energy needs of this country.

And I want to go back to the 154 billion, is it? That the United States is giving South Africa not giving, loaning by the way? Now, they said that they will get rid of all fire energy supply by the year 2054.

France is recommissioning, China is building an average of one volt-fired power utility every week. South Korea have been building as well, but South Africa that has an energy crisis wants to shut down the coal from one extreme, want to go to the other extreme.

Now my understanding is this, this is all about money. And I believe a lot of us sitting in this House are being taken for a ride. Those that own this coal mining companies, and control that sector are exporting this coal and making a lot of money
at it because we’re getting the crumbs, the 2% royalties. But the very same companies have got an interest in renewable energy.

So, for them, it’s a win, win situation. Let’s not use the coal here. Let’s export, make more money, give the crumbs to government and its people, and then let’s introduce renewable engines, because we’re making money there as well.

So, I think there’s a sinister move as to why Eskom can’t come

out of it. Probably yes, maintenance has been a problem. Skills have been a problem. I don’t believe money alone is going to solve the problem, there’s something bigger out there to explain.

But lastly, let me say what is happening in Palestine, with the electricity being cut off. The theatres have no electricity whatsoever. Patients have been found with maggots. Electricity has been cut off, resulting even the anaesthetics cannot be refrigerated.

So, these are some of the challenges that they are facing. I hope that we consider these things, but can we come together and find alternatives in terms of the energies because
economic energy ... [Interjection.] The NFP supports, Thank you very much, House Chair. [Time expired.]

Mr S M JAFTA: House Chairperson, the AIC supports the Bill ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Unfortunately, I
can’t hear you, hon Jafta, I assume you are ...

Mr S M JAFTA: ... I said the AIC supports the Bill, no further declaration from the AIC.

Mr T LOATE: COPE supports the Bill House Chairperson.


Ms S R VAN SCHALKWYK: House Chairperson, I understand that the DA doesn’t understand the sub judicare rule. When the matter is before a court of law, at least the ANC is not funded by Israel. And second to that we know at one point, the DA government wanted to reticulate sea water, funded by an Israel company, to come and produce energy funded by the Israelites.

House Chairperson, there ANC supports the Bill because we want to deal with the hypocrisy of those who says that load shedding is an albatross. But when we provide a solution to
add an additional 1600 megawatts on the grid, they say no to it.

The ANC says, will further add another 1600 megawatts and we have also hon Wessels allowed independent power producers, to produce 48% and put it into the grid.

The energy regulator will never allow a situation where independent power producers want to take the role of government to regulate energy in this country and give to business to make money at the expense of the poor.

Over the past 10 years, the ANC has put more than
400,000 solar panels on the rooftops of poor people. That’s



The ANC-led government, as the economy is growing over the past two decades, double folded, has ensured that it regulates the South African energy to even include renewable energy. We know that those who don’t want us to use coal in the South Africa, because if we don’t do that, they’re going to benefit as business.
Therefore, when the South African economy has grown, it has not done that without challenges. It is common cause members, that load shedding has been an albatross. But at the same vein government plan to reduce load shedding through maintenance
... Eskom debt relief is based on ensuring that base load of electricity generation and supply is protected and increased through maintenance of the plants and ensuring that Kusile and Medupi perform optimally while ensuring further generation capacity comes on stream, from independent power producer, IPP and green energy.

Therefore, hon members, since the adoption of the Eskom Debt Relief Bill, at the beginning of the year, we have since seen substantial progress in the energy supply. Seeing that out of the 48%, we’re going to increase it to 60% going forward.

And it’s that’s fact on the table, that’s what the Minister has done through investment. And it is untrue that investors have ran out of this country. If you look at the performance of the South African economy in the third quarter, you will see improvement. That’s facts.

Statistics SA has given us facts about how we're benefiting
from this. There’s a committee which is called the Energy
Crisis Committee, that has been established by government to make sure that there is a one stop energy program that will deal with fast tracking applications for energy developers. So, were calling on developers to come on board because government has created an opportunity for you to bring solutions and that’s what we are doing, Shaik-Emam.

The scheme has already financed static ... [Inaudible] ... and sustainable heating in the Northern Cape, which has developed a combined solar capacity of 540 megawatts and battery storage capacity of 225 megawatts, hon members, if you like.

The local community has 25% shareholding because we’re believing in giving back to the people and that’s what they don’t want. They don’t want us to make other people to be part of shareholding, they want it all. And in this, it will strengthen the transmission network and will be the key to enabling the government currently, to produce 6180 megawatts going forward of renewable projects.

Eskom and ... [Inaudible.] ... generation task team, has supported over 100 projects and I repeat, it has supported over 100 projects which are not mentioned here by hon Lyon because it’s not in his interest.
Therefore, by 2025 hon members, nine projects with a total of 1000 megawatts will be connected to the grid under the renewable energy independent power producers, through a procurement program, of course, and these efforts and progress must be acknowledged and are demonstrating the resolve of the ANC-led government in resolving the energy crisis.

Notwithstanding the challenges, of course, which are faced throughout the year, the South African economy has demonstrated resilience which we don’t want to accept for two conservative quarters, the numbers of people with jobs rose by
163 million in agriculture - I come from an agrarian province, between April and June and the number of employed persons increased by 399,000 to 16,7 million. Yes, that’s facts from the statistician general.

And our electricity is a public good. And I repeat, our electricity is a public good and the state has to strengthen its ability to deliver this good to fulfil the developmental imperatives needed to transform the lives of the people of this country.
The ANC will support this Bill and will continue to make sure that our people have access to energy. I thank, House Chairperson.

Debate concluded.


Question put.


Bill read a first time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Bill agreed to.


Bill read a first time.




(Second Reading debate)


There was no debate.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Second Reading – Eskom Debt Relief Amendment Bill.


Bill read a second time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The Bill will be send to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence.


There was no debate.



Chairperson, I move that the Bill be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.



(Second Reading debate)


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, the Constitutional Court of South Africa, in a judgment penned by Chief Justice Madlanga, made an important observation. That observation was, Minister ... [Inaudible.] had lost a case against the Minister of Finance where I lost hands down. Alright. Minister you have all the powers in terms of the Constitution, but what you did through the Preferential Procurement Act, you tied your hands. You cannot then through a second ... [Inaudible.] ... legislation in the form of regulations undermine that. This legislation is the correction of that fundamental omission of undermining our powers granted to us in terms of the Constitution. What are those powers?

The Constitution says, you must provide procurement in a transparent and fair manner. That subsection of the Constitution one. Most members on this side like to quote that section they do not go to the subsection 2. Subsection 2(a)
says, you may decide which categories you may discriminate in favour of. I am summarising what the Constitution says.

Subsection 2(b) says and I quote, “You must provide for imbalances of the past.”

That is what the Constitution says. This Act categorically deals with those categories classified in section 217 of the Constitution across the board and not one area of each. That is what we are trying to achieve with this Bill. Those broad transformation objectives which are being covered in this Bill.

So, there is a notion that when we talk about value for money which is subsection 1 of the Constitution, we are not actually referring to price and there must be a distinction between price and value for money. Those things are not the same.

However, hon House Chairperson, this Bill therefore provide for those correction for Preferential Procurement Act which in fact was drafted in a hurry, I cannot remember the year. Well we did it. So, it is all embracing and covers areas which were not necessary clear in the Preferential Procurement Act, such as set aside and areas such as local content.
This Bill is broad enough for those purposes. It is therefore addressing the transformation agenda. We may not all of us necessarily agree in that respect. However, broadly, it clarifies the areas that were not clear in the Preferential Procurement Act. At some of them that we constrained in the Preferential Procurement Act. We are making that broad brush legislation.

We therefore also have made a number of decisions in between in line with the Constitutional Court Judgment. We have made regulations which allow each organ of state to develop its procurement policies. That is what we have done. In line of course under the guidance of constitutional prescripts.

You cannot say you are going to have your own procurement but it will require the - the Act says and the Constitution says it must.

In addition to that contrary to what it has been said, schedule 2 state-owned enterprises have been given more flexibility than ever before, in the new regulation rule which was taken in companies like Transnet, Eskom, Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, Development Bank of Southern
Africa, DBSA, in keeping with the spirit contending this Bill and the Constitution.

I think it is an important piece of legislation to be supported by this House. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.


Nkul M J MASWANGANYI: Mi njhani, makwerhu? Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.


Hoe gaan dit, Desiree?


Hon Chairperson, Ministers, Members of Parliament, Deputy Ministers ...




The Public Procurement Bill was introduced in the National Assembly on June 30, 2023, and referred to the committee for
consideration. Was there adequate public participation because that’s very important? The committee notes the comprehensive and multistage process undertaken by National Treasury for the development of the Public Procurement Bill. The Bill was initiated following a Cabinet directive in December 2014. The process involved extensive engagement with stakeholders at national, provincial and local levels, including professional bodies. The timeline from the conceptualisation in 2014, to Cabinet approval in May 2023, showcases a thorough and inclusive approach to legislative development.

The Bill has been in the pipeline for almost 10 years. The committee acknowledges the robust stakeholder engagement, including interactions with the government, business and labour representatives through the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, task team. Public participation was evidenced by over 4 000 commentators, during the public comment period reflects a commitment to inclusivity and responsiveness to diverse perspectives. The committee notes the involvement of the Nedlac task team in the review and deliberations of the Bill, focusing on the thematic areas. The final Nedlac report signed on October 25, 2022, demonstrates a collaborative effort involving key social partners and contribute to the Bills refinement.
The committee recognises the meticulous scrutiny of the revised Bill by the Office of the Chief State Law Advisor issuance of a preliminary opinion and the final socioeconomic impact assessment certificate. Cabinet approval in May 2023, following engagement with the facade, reflects due diligence and compliance with legal and procedural requirements. The committee acknowledges the formal Bill to Parliament on May 10, 2023, subsequent briefings to scoff in May and September 2023, and the call for public comments. Public hearings were held on September 12 and 13, 2023, allowed for diverse inputs from 112 various organisations or stakeholders contributing to the demographic and participatory nature of the legislative process.

The committee deliberated on the Public Procurement Bill on November 28 and 29, where some changes were affected. The committee adopted a motion of desirability on December 1, 2023. The committee acknowledges and appreciates the valuable contribution made by stakeholders, including the Nedlac during the development and refinement of the Bill. As the Minister has alluded to, the Bill provides for a unified procurement framework and constitutional alignment. The Bill aims to establish a unified framework for public procurement in alignment with the constitutional principles of fairness,
transparency and competitiveness. The Bill insured a unified procurement system. Therefore, the Bill repeals four laws of Parliament and also amends 12 laws of Parliament. The Bill gives effect to the preferential procurement framework. What we have to understand is that the state is the biggest procure of services. The inclusion of a preferential procurement framework aligns with the constitutional provisions found in section 217 and aims to address the persistent historical economic disparities.

Section 217(3) of the Constitution explicitly states that national legislation must prescribe the framework within which the policy referred to in subsection 2 must be implemented, whereas subsection 217(2) authorises organs of state to implement a procurement policy for categories of preferences in the allocation of contracts and the protection or advancement of persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination. There’s no ambiguity about the national legislative for solitary, as vested in Parliament.
Parliament is mandated by the Constitution to utilise public procurement to fix problems of inequalities.

This legislation will protect and advance the interests of persons previously disadvantaged by unfair discrimination and
create categories of preference when doing so as the Minister has said. There are no impediments preventing Parliament from utilising this opportunity to draft a Preferential Procurement Bill that definitely prioritises black people. Therefore, black people in this regard referring to Africans, Coloureds and Indians who are citizens of South Africa. Under apartheid race was used to control access to South Africa’s productive resources and access to skills, and South Africa’s economy still exclude the vast majority of its people from ownership of productive assets and the possession of advanced skills.

The Bill also defines the term transformation. Reference to the definition may be taken from the late Chief Justice Pius Langa when he wrote, I quote:

Transformation then is a social and an economic revolution. South Africa at present has to contend with unequal and insufficient access to housing, food, water, health care and electricity.

Transformation is a constitutional imperative that should not be disturbed by political differences differing financial priorities. Transformation is a policy initiative to redress apartheid’s legacy of economic exclusion and inequality by
bringing black people who constitute a majority of South Africa’s population into the mainstream of the economy.

The Bill provides for set aside for preferential procurement. The proposed framework gives effect to the protection or advancements of persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination. The Minister of Finance, Madiba, must prescribe targets for set aside that affect black people, black women, people with disabilities, youth, small enterprises and co-operative. Specific examples on how public procurement integrated socioeconomic policies can be seen in Kenya, where affirmed action has been implemented through Article 227 of the Kenyan Constitution to mainstream gender and youth in public procurement and champion the socioeconomic empowerment of disadvantaged individuals. The Bill is also gender responsive. When addressing the Women’s Day in 2020, President Ramaphosa said, I quote:

Today we commit to a new social compact with the women of this country informed by our collective commitment to gender equality. This will be driven by bold actions. The first action is to expand the access of women to economic opportunity. We will do this, among other things, by
setting aside 40% of public procurement for women-owned businesses.

This Bill fulfils the President’s commitment to women of this country. The Bill also provides for localisation or designation for local production and content. The Minister responsible for Trade, Industry and Competition must designate a subsector or industry or product in accordance with national development and industrial policy for local production and content where only local produced or manufactured goods meet the stipulated minimum threshold for local production and content. This is not a new phenomenon, it can be tracked to the Great Depression where the Buy America Act of 1933, required federal agencies to procure domestic materials and products to support local industries.

Another example is the 1953, Small Business Administration, which included using public procurement to help Americans start, build and grow businesses. In Africa we can refer to the Uganda case study, the Buy Uganda Build Uganda policy was approved by Cabinet in 2014. Also, the Bill provides for subcontracting as a condition of bid. The procuring institution must advertise the bid with a specific bidding condition that the successful bidder must subcontract a
prescribed minimum package of the value of the contract to small enterprise, youth, women, disabilities, and enterprises owned by black people.

Thank you very much, hon Minister Madiba, for bringing this much awaited Bill and thanks to the Cabinet also for approving this Bill. Therefore, as the ANC we move that this Bill be adopted. I thank you.

Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, government is the largest buyer in the country and spends over R800 billion per year. This is an enormous amount of money and impacts heavily on our economy.
In July, the International Monetary Fund cautioned South Africa that preferential procurement adds a 20% premium to the state's cost of goods and services. That is approximately
R160 billion.


Preferential procurement initially evolved as a procurement of goods and services from empowering suppliers as a percentage of total procurement. Like every other government intervention in our economy, it went horribly wrong. From the outset, the system was manipulated, front companies arose that received substantial markups for goods and services previously supplied to government at much lower prices.
Government was very happy to pay the hefty premiums because ANC politicians and their cronies were the beneficiaries of the front companies, and many became millionaires and billionaires, and everyone else was left behind. The parasites known as tenderpreneurs took their wholesale theft of the people's money to the next level, politically connected or ANC politicians themselves.

These financial criminals were rewarded government tenders through companies set up specifically to masquerade as entities capable of providing the services and eligible under the preferential procurement regulations. That is how
R22 million was spent on an open field that was called a sports centre, R38 million was spent on a shack that was a called a call centre and R223 billion was spent a building that was called a power station. The list is endless.

As the cost of living crisis bites harder and battling South African households struggle to put enough food on their tables, government chooses to pay more than it should with the people's hard-earned tax money. This is under the guise of empowerment that doesn't empower anyone. It only makes a select few even richer than they already are.
If you have a choice to buy something for R100, why would you pay R120 for exactly the same or inferior item? Price is crucially important because government is running out of money and can't afford to overpay for anything. The irony here is that money for service delivery to the poorest South Africans is crowded out by paying more to service providers, apparently to empower them, so money is diverted from the poorest households to other beneficiaries.

The City of Cape Town recently released its first Procurement Transparency Report, which shows that 79% of the city's procurements are at or below market rates. It is possible for government to be efficient and negotiate better prices if it isn't corrupt. If government didn't overpay for goods and services, it could very easily cut the tax and levy on fuel, increase the solar panel rebate, and expand the zero Vat rated basket of food to include bone-in chicken, beef, tinned beans, wheat flour, margarine, peanut butter, baby food, tea, coffee, and soup powder.

The DA rejects this Bill because it does not fix the core issue of systemic corruption and is another disastrous piece of race-based legislation introduced by a failing ANC government with nothing else to offer. It proposes setting
aside contracts for business-owned by preferred groups, limiting bidders to companies that meet specific criteria, such as Black Economic Empowerment, BEE ratings or ownership, points for preferential groups that potentially allow a bid to win even if it is three times more expensive than the non- preferred group's bid, and mandating winning bids to subcontract part of the contract to business owned by preferential groups.

These regulations will cause additional market distortions that will lead to inefficiencies in the public sector. This is confirmed by the Harvard group hub that recently highlighted preferential procurement as a primary cause of the collapse of state capacity.

The DA's Social Impact Bill and Broader Economic Justice Policy presents an alternative preferential procurement policy that will achieve actual empowerment for people who actually need it. The DA reaffirms our commitment to non-racialism and will continue to strongly oppose the continued usage of crude racial categories in the implementation of preferential procurement policies.
By further distorting price signals, the proposed legislation will accelerate the increasing cost of living that the Government does not mention, because it simply does not care that battling households cannot maintain the standard of living, they worked so hard to achieve. Almost five million children are starving as a direct result of policies as set out in this Bill. The people see you, dysfunctional, incompetent and corrupt ANC Government, and next year you will be abandoned. Thank you.

Mr M MANYI: House Chair, in recent years the public procurement has been a subject of a growing debate in the context of transformation. Madiba, listen. The repeal of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act, PPPFA is a progressive stance, however it should not be replaced with some nice sounding words to mask its reintroduction.

The EFF succeeded in persuading the committee against reintroducing PPPFA through the back door under the guise of value for money. The phrase value for money and its far- reaching prioritisation of price over everything else has been booted out of the Bill, Madiba.
The EFF also succeeded in helping with the definition of transformation from something that was woolly to something that gives effect to the spirit and letter of the Constitution. It cannot be that we can talk about transformation and leave out something like a key component as in representativity. So, the EFF introduced that. Thank you very much EFF.

The EFF's principal stance on the role of the state in the public procurement, challenges the traditional approaches. The EFF’s vision as articulated in our funding manifesto and policy proposals, centres on the idea of building the capacity of the state where the retention of core functions, prioritisation of human capital, and economic growth take precedence over reliance on the profit-driven private sector.

We reject the wholesale outsourcing as intimated in the Bill. In the EFF’s model, the state would employ skilled professionals, including engineers, quantity surveyors, project managers, and builders for essential tasks such as constructing infrastructure, housing, and recreational facilities.
This approach ensures that strict quality assurance standards are in place to guarantee the high quality of state constructed assets. The focus on quality assurance emphasizes that state-owned companies prioritise providing excellent services for the public, and the broader economy over profit- seeking. This is exactly what the people of South Africa want.

The EFF's vision serves as a reminder that discussions about public procurement are not just some technical matters, these are deeply political and ideological issues, reflecting the values and priorities of the society. If you say a recurring society, you must understand how public procurement is going to assist or not.

In a landscape of evolving ideas and policies, the EFF's vision provides a unique perspective that merits consideration and debate as we contemplate the future of public procurement and state-led economic development.

Let's go to the Bill. Despite the Bill having properly dismantled some of the racist issues of the PPPFA, thank you Madiba. However, the following issues remain unsolved. The Bill has failed spectacularly to encapsulate a fundamental
posture and commitment that total government procurement will be biased towards local production.

Local production has been ghettoized into something called designated procurement somewhere in the periphery. It's not the mainstream posture of this Bill. The Bill has failed to include government as a designated supplier of certain goods and services. Everything is envisaged to be outsourced. If put differently. it means that the issue of corruption will continue because as you continue outsourcing, you attract corruption.

By the way, hon Maswanganyi, that 40% is not there, so your boss misled the people. The Bill has failed to take the people of South Africa into confidence and be transparent and truthful in that set-asides. It leaves beneficiaries, let me explain this. You know, Chair, this Bill is so dishonest.

What they have on the set-asides, they say black youth and they say youth. They say black people with disabilities, and they say disabilities. They say black women and they say women. Then you ask them, who are these people that have got no labels? If you are able to say black, who are these other women? If you say disabled who are these others? So, we say,
can't you be honest and just say white women, white people with disabilities, just be honest. Why don't you do this? Or rather make a definition that is all encapsulating because we're not anti-white, but we're just anti-monkey tricks. We don't want to be played. We want a Bill that is honest. Why do you play on women? Put everyone in the Bill. The Bill doesn't say so. That's the problem that we have.

The EFF is also not persuaded by the amendments in the Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB. CIDB is one of the cornerstones that are killing black construction companies. That legislation is a monster. You would have thought that if you're trying to centralise and create uniformity amongst procurement, that this is one of the first things that you would do to deal with CIDB but they do some little trick here and a little trick there and they think they're done with this thing. It's a complete mess. The EFF will pick up these matters in the National Council of Provinces. Until then, the EFF reserves its position. Thank you.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: House Chair, public procurement accounts largely on where state funds end up, therefore, we must have sound mechanisms ...
Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to check if it is parliamentary to talk from the boot of your car.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Out of what?


Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Can I proceed, hon House Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You can proceed, hon member.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: I was saying to you, therefore, we must have sound mechanisms and legislation in place that recognise and efficiently regulate such delicate processes and ensure that their objectives are fully understood and met. As one can imagine, such processes are proven to have challenges that require revised mechanism, in order to be addressed.
Therefore, we must adopt a unified framework that not only reflect crucial principles enshrined in our Constitution, but one that is consistent with those principles, such as fairness, equitability, cost-effectiveness, but most importantly, transparency in all undertakings.
The clear and consistent implementation of this Bill will act as a bulwark against corruption and the mismanagement of funds
– traits, which have become synonymous with public procurement over years. The establishment of a dedicated office, which is meant to oversee certain parts of governance, has become a norm, albeit most of them are ineffective.

The introduction of a public procurement office meant to regulate procurement activities within Treasury, with defined and set functions is no exception. If competent, this office will enhance efficiency. As corruption cripple every part of government, we must make all attempts possible to restore the dignity of procurement processes, while ensuring that preferential treatment does indeed address the socioeconomic imbalances that have become part of the identity of our nation.

Where agreed, this institution must have recourse for resolving disputes, which will in turn ensure a fair and efficient resolution process when it comes to procurement matters. Both national and local government have a crucial role to play in public procurement processes, hence provincial Treasuries ought to be more involved than they currently are.
It is not incorrect to say that many have forgotten their ... [Inaudible.] ... of processes surrounding public procurement, that it was meant to promote sustainable development, job creation and to provide support for small enterprises - functions that the procurement process and the delivery of goods have diverted from over years. The establishment of a public procurement office will breach existing gaps. It will restore the functions of public procurement, while allowing the investigation of procurement-related matters.

While this Bill has well-intentioned mechanisms to rescue the country from corrupt hands that ... [Inaudible.] ... in public procurement, it will potentially be poorly implemented and even dished, as with all other sound legislation, while our people continue to be denied basic services. The IFP, with this. supports the bill. Thank you.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, the Constitution, in section 217, provides that an organ of state must procure goods and services in accordance with the system, which is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost-effective.
Subsection 2 then provides for a system, which provides protection or advancement of persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination, but this is not what
the ANC government has done with the preferential procurement system, and it is also not what this Bill will entail.

The preferential procurement system is abused to advance the interest of certain fat cat tenderpreneurs. It is abused where substandard products are procured with state money and where those prices or those goods and services are overpriced. It is not in the interest of empowerment. It is not in the interest of alleviating poverty and inequality. It is in the interest of cadres and entrepreneurs.

This Bill does not effectively address the root cause of corruption, and it also does not provide for a balanced approach for a point system, which takes into account preference, but also balance it with the other constitutional obligations of transparency, competitiveness and cost- effectiveness. It leaves that behind and it makes it less important than the preferential part thereof. This will not advance a non-racial, non-sexist society.

We need a South African dispensation, where we have equal opportunities and where we do not have this racially based legislation, which is something prehistoric from the past and which is not modern in nature, aimed at getting South Africa
forward and advancing the interests of all South Africans. This government is completely racist, as it is only thinking about race and not about the poor people out there and about the system, which will actually advance the fiscus and economy of South Africa.

Hierdie regering is rasbehep, net soos die vorige regering. Hierdie regering wil nie ’n nuwe toekoms vir almal skep nie, maar stel slegs belang om mag en dit wat hulle gesteel het, te behou. Daardie mense wat hulle in staat gestel het om te steel, hou aan om te steel. Hierdie wetgewing gaan dit nie stop nie. U is kortsigtig en u stel nie belang in die werklike probleme, dat swart ekonomiese bemagtigning en regstellende aksie nie in sy doelwit slaag nie. Dit slaag nie daarin om armoede te bekamp en diegene wat agter gelaat is ...

Mr E MTHETHWA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to find out if “fok” is parliamentary. I heard the member saying “fok” in this House. So, I want to find out if it is parliamentary. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Enoch Muzi, I did not hear that. Who is that member?
Mr E MTHETHWA: I don’t know his name. Sorry to point him out

with a finger. Am I allowed to point him out with a finger?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR M L D Ntpombela): Who is that member, hon Enoch Muzi?

Mr E MTHETHWA: The gentleman in the greyish shirt. He was
saying “fok man, fok man” repeatedly.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR M L D Ntpombela): Hon Myeni, is that you? Did you say that?

Mr E T MYENI: No, Chairperson. No, I did not say that. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MR M L D Ntpombela): I will follow-up on it. Thank you.


Mr W W WESSELS: Wat ons nodig het is ’n regering wat werklik belangstel om ’n nuwe bedeling, wat in belang van alle Suid- Afrikaners is, daar te stel. Hierdie wetgewing is nie daar om werklik die probleem van korrupsie, van uitbuiting van die
staat en van ’n geweldige finansiële krisis, wat ons tans

beleef, as gevolg van daardie elemente, aan te spreek nie.


Ons het verandering nodig en hierdie wetgewing bring nie daardie verandering nie. Dis vasgevang in die retoriek van rassigheid en van ’n wet wat nie werklik die probleem aanspreek nie. Ek dank u.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, this version of the Public Procurement Bill was supposed to be a response to the Zondo Commission’s findings on preferential procurement that contributed significantly to state capture and corruption in state procurement. The ACDP does not support preferential procurement provisions which have contributed to state capture and corruption and have grossly inflated government contracts. This Bill, we believe is a missed opportunity to fundamentally address many deficiencies in the public procurement sphere.

Professor Quinot of the Stellenbosch University’s African Procurement Law Unit noted with great alarm that these provisions are effectively a cut and paste of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act, PPPFA, procurement processes in the 2017 Preferential Procurement Regulations. He says it
is exactly those provisions that led us to this law reform process that we are engaging in.

The ACDP believes that it makes commercial sense to source goods directly from original equipment manufacturers, rather than middlemen who are appointed in terms of preferential procurement provisions. This has led to inflated price margin. To rather approach these contracts directly would improve financial and operational performance of state-owned entities, SOEs, particularly Eskom.

The ACDP is also concerned that these provisions will embolden extortion syndicates who, under the guise of business forums, show up armed at construction sites demanding that 30% of the projects be subcontracted to them. Stakeholders also commenting on the Bill expressed concerns about the watering down of provisions relating to integrity and transparency.

Harvard University’s Growth Lab, in its report on South Africa, made a very strong recommendation that government should reconsider the implementation of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, at all costs. It states that procurement regulations are the creator of tenderpreneur
economy, which benefits only a narrow few at the expense of many.

The sharpest legal brands in South Africa came together pro bono to form the joint strategic resources to comment on the Bill and suggest amendments. The ACDP wishes to commend these lawyers and legal experts, but it is sad to see the invaluable resources largely overlooked.

To curb the high levels of corruption requires a change of heart, not only legislation. What is needed is ethics and morality. What is needed is servant leadership who understand stewardship of state resources and that those resources are not there to be looted and stolen by ANC cadres. The ACDP offers such leadership for next year’s elections. I thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, South Africans have endured decades of unabated theft and corruption in all spheres of government of public entities and state-owned enterprises. The diversion of public funds has undermined and destroyed our developmental state intended to drive redress and benefit the people of South Africa, and in particular those who were impoverished, disadvantaged and excluded as a matter of policy under the apartheid state.
By the time the Commission of Inquiry into State Capture was established, much of the evidence heard by the commission was already in the public domain. It was thus not surprising that the Zondo Commission identified the public procurement system as the primary site for the theft and corruption mastered through the strategic placement of captured individuals in positions to influence and pervert procurement of goods and services. It is also not surprising that the commission recommended reforms to our public procurement processes in order to reduce the opportunity for corruption and to provide protection to whistleblowers who take great risks to expose corrupt practices.

While the Public Procurement Bill was not introduced in response to the Zondo Commission’s recommendations, it does seek to address some of the systemic weaknesses identified by the commission. Corruption is increasingly sophisticated and remains to be seen if this new Bill will have any impact on corruption through public procurement. Will the new procurement system it creates be able to identify over design, for example, and the kickbacks for infrastructure projects?

Land is the new currency of corruption, and will this Bill be able to identify when land is purchased higher than its market
value with a kickback from the seller? What about the corruption of land, the sale of public land below market value, and the granting of unearned development rights?

The introduction of a Public Procurement Tribunal is a welcome development in our procurement system since it enables an aggrieved bidder to ventilate their procurement dispute without the high costs and also hopefully without the lengthy process of a High Court review. If the introduction of this new standardised framework for public procurement can eliminate corruption, which is not yet clear, reduce waste, increase innovation, enable small and medium enterprises to increase their state business and streamline dispute resolution, then it will fundamentally improve the purchasing power of the public land. We hope that this is the outcome, and we support the Bill. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, while the National Freedom Party will support this amended Bill, there appears to be a reluctance by National Treasury to acknowledge the real challenges we face in procurement. We have repeatedly raised the amount of money and the very same CEO of supply chain said, and I repeat: “This country loses an estimated 40% annually on goods and services.” Despite knowing this ...
Despite the amendments to this Bill, which falls far short of addressing the real challenges we have in terms of corruption and tender fraud we are not addressing it. Why? What is the reluctance on our part to deal with it when every single member that is sitting in this House knows that corruption is rife in the country when it comes to procurement, why?

I wrote to the Office of the Minister wanting a report and I wanted to know why couldn’t those awarded tenders be advertised with the names of the company, the directors, the value and the itemised billing on a monthly basis in that local community so that we can see who is getting the tenders and what prices you are paying? And Minister, the response I got is that it is a requirement, but they are not doing it.
So, what are we doing about ensuring that they do it?


I can tell you what I’ve heard the other day from somebody, and I won’t give their name, but a particular Mayor is ensuring that every tender awarded in his municipality in KwaZulu-Natal is awarded to the highest bidder because you need meat in that you see so that others can benefit and eat in it. This is how serious the problem is.
Now, I cannot understand, if we know there are problems, why not do something about it? Even this preferential procurement we are talking about ... Yes, we want to address the inequalities and the challenges we face, but it should not be an opportunity to loot. Can you imagine how much more, Chairperson and Minister, we can deliver and do for the people on the ground if we can get value for money? But an item that cost R10, you are paying R100.

I was in Limpopo this week on the Police oversight. A person who worked for a bank, SA Home Loans, as an administrative clerk leaves the job, and immediately he leaves the work he comes and gets an AGB contract valued at R200 million. He gets a contract awarded for 80 some odd million. And guess what? He didn’t complete the job. The next one also gets the job with another mall that was not built. You could see the corruption that is taking place. Let’s close this gap. Let there be more transparency, let there be more accountability ... [Time expired.] ... and never let a politician appoint a municipal manager; that’s where the corruption is.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Chair, the ANC-led government’s solution to a problem is generally as bad as the problem itself. Through this Public Procurement Bill, the answer to a
catastrophically mismanaged procurement framework that has entrenched corruption is to introduce legislation that incentivises more wrongdoing by loyal cadre networks. It legislates that government may be legally overcharged to pay more than it should for supplied products and services. In short, South African taxpayers pays more for less to make ANC aligned cadres even more rich at the taxpayers’ expense.

Public procurement accounts for over R800 billion of government expenditure. It can therefore serve as a powerful lever to incentivise government policies across the entire economy and presents an ideal opportunity for the government to address dire socioeconomic conditions by incentivising companies to engage in behaviour that contribute positively to the goals of national importance.

However, throughout its tenure in government, the ANC has implemented a progressively racially divisive procurement framework that has resulted in the enrichment of elite few cadres and the increase of unemployment, poverty and inequality. The simple truth is that our economy can only grow by creating productive synergies between the public and private sector. Yet, the ANC strategy and wilfully ignorant insistence on continuing with BEE policies failed miserably
and facilitated the emergence of the tenderpreneurs in trained systematic corruption and crowded out economic growth needed to generate jobs and alleviate poverty.

The DA’s Social Impact Bill and broader economic justice policy presents an alternative preferential procurement policy. The Bill aims to address the root cause of inequality and will benefit the most vulnerable of our citizens. It will remove race-based BEE from public procurement and replace it with the 17 United Nations Social Development Goals, which target poverty where it exists in education, in healthcare, in local communities and the environment, to name a few. By doing this, we can leverage state procurement to get more value for money, not less, and allow South Africans to be the beneficiaries, not the ANC tenderpreneurs.

Our alternative, the DA, reaffirms our commitment to the constitutional principle of non-racialism and the true empowerment of those who need it the most - the unemployed and the poor. That is the difference between the DA and the ANC. We prioritise people, they prioritise politicians. The DA rejects the Bill because it does not fix the core issues of systematic corruption and is another disastrous piece of race- based legislation. [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M L D Ntombela): Where is the name change of the person presenting? Please indicate, hon members. The hon Abraham?

Ms P N ABRAHAM: Hon House Chair, hon members, hon De Villiers, how can the ANC be expected to fix the damage of more than 400 years? We are busy with that, with this Bill. Don’t talk about corruption, because corruption started when you stole the land. When you knew that freedom is here, you started stealing, dividing it amongst yourself. If you talk about corruption, we hate corruption, just as you do.

Sikhahlele kwingqanga neentsiba zayo, uMphathiswa wethu ... [Ngokungavakaliyo.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.
Don’t drown the speaker.


Nksz P N ABRAHAM: ... Madiba ndiyakhahlela. Kumalungu eNdlu, ndiyakhahlela. Kumzi wonke waseMzantsi Afrika, ndiyabulisa egameni leANC. Mzukulwana kaSwarts, uphi ndoda? Xhoba ngazo
zonke izikrweqe ubaze iindlebe kuba ndiza kushawama ngeleenkobe okomzuzwana, ndibuye ndize apha kubemi kwilizwe elitsha (settlers), mhlawumbi ndingagqibela ngamadlagusha, kodwa ndiza kuzithetha zontathu ezi lwimi namhlanje.
KwiNtshumayeli isahluko sesixhenxe, ivesi yesibhozo ithi,

“kulungile ukugqitywa kwezinto kunokuqalwa kwazo.”



Nksz P N ABRAHAM: Ndifuna ukuthi ke, iANC ivukile ithe dlwe. Xa sasixoxa sihleli etafileni nomntu wonke eMzantsi Afrika ...

... the only mistake ...


... esayenzayo siyiANC kukucinga ukuba singqondo-nye sonke.



And yet ...


... kukho abantu abacinga ngolwabo uhlobo olwahlukileyo. Ngokwezicwangiso zoMqulu weNkululeko ubutyebi belizwe bumelwe
ukwahlulwa phakathi kwabantu bonke. Yile nto yenziwa ngulo mthetho leyo. Lo mthetho ulungisa umcimbi wokucinezelwa koomama. Oomama becinezeleke kathathu, becinezeleke ngesini, ngebala labo elimdaka, becinezeleke nangezoqoqosho.

Siyabuya ke kwaye utshilo uMphathiswa ukuba iNkundla yoMqaqo- siseko isinike Amandla okuba siziguqule ezi zinto zingapheleli nje ukuba phaya kuMgaqo-siseko kodwa umthetho unyanzelise kwanaye uMphathiswa ukuba enze indlela yokuba abantu, ngakumbi ooomama, ulutsha kunye nabantu abaphila nenkubazeko bavumeleke.

The Public Procurement Bill that we are adopting today is one of the major transformational Bills to be considered. Our country remains the most unequal in the world, and asset ownership is concentrated in the hands of a few ...


Niyayazi le nto ndiyithethayo.



There are fundamental aspects which require a focused approach to tackle the systemic and structural impediments to economic
transformation and inclusion. The top 10% of firms constituted 85,8% of the total turnover by firms, while the bottom 50% of the firms contributed only 1,6% of the turnover. Now, without decisive measures on economic ownership patterns and income patterns, the fruits of the economy will continue to benefit just a few, while the majority are excluded from the mainstream economy.

The public sector is a major spender in the economy, and this provides the government with the instrument to use public expenditure to advance our developmental needs and, most importantly, to address asset and income inequality. Over the years, we have observed transformation, as the black economic empowerment policy has evolved and made an impact on ensuring that the marginalised are preferred as suppliers of goods and services. But what is critical to note about the Bill is the fact that it responds to the constitutional provision in section 217.

The ANC welcomes the important inputs made by various organisations in the public hearings. A critical area in which the government should have to make clear policy determinations is on set asides. The chairperson alluded to this, because set asides have been raised as key interventions to ring-fence
procurement to empower a targeted group. The prioritisation of women, youth and people with disabilities is quite critical.
In the main, preferential procurement should empower black people unashamedly.

We have resolved a clause to compel the Minister to determine set aside targets. Yes, the President has called for 40% of the public procurement to benefit women. Hon Manyi, you must understand that he is the President. He makes a statement and comrade Enoch must implement hon member.

So, the Minister can now regulate and determine the targets. The Bill also creates parameters for the state to procure services from other state-owned companies. The Bill also develops a public procurement tribune and dispute management mechanisms.

You talk about fat cats. Who is the fat cat here? You are crying foul, because the ANC is addressing the atrocities of the poor. You know, here, you want us to remind you. I am not going to repeat it. You stole the land.

Die Verkrygingswetsontwerp wat ons vandag bespreek demonstreer – luister bietjie, luister – die ... [Onhoorbaar.] ... maatreëls van die regering om korrupsie te keer, deur die verhindering van besighede en hul direkteure. Die verhindering van individue is deel van die ingryping van verantwoordbare bestuur, om te verseker dat private diensverskaffers die wet volg, en die regte dienste lewer, met die nodige vereiste kwaliteit.

Deur die Verkrygingswetsontwerp verseker ons die beskerming van die meerderheid ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... konstitusionele regstellings. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die ANC bly toegewyd om die radikale ekonomiese transformasie te bevorder, en ’n billike en toeganklike samelewing te verseker.

ACDP, the day you stop mimicking the DA is the day your Lord will raise you to a leadership position. Rise up and become the voice of the voiceless. We want to thank the EFF, hon Manyi, for contributing to the making of the Bill. No, you were not ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Khawula.


Ms P N ABRAHAM: Hon Manyi, we want to thank you for the contribution that you have made in the committee. And we appeal to your conscience, don’t drop the oppressed at this time. Don’t drop them.

Now, for your information, this ANC government is against corruption. That is why you hate the President of the ANC. It is because he has started some means to fight corruption. So, the DA would rather fight corruption and keep inequality. That is not on. The ANC supports this progressive and transportive Bill.




The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, hon members, let me start by thanking the committee that did this wonderful work.
Across all political parties, I think the work that was done, and the time devoted to dealing with this legislation was impressive. Having said that, I started by thanking you, because I am going to deal with the issues you have raised. By the time I sit down, you would not want me to be my here.

The first thing, I don’t mind if the formulation is gone. It is there, because the Constitution requires that. However, you are correct; this is an ideological debate. I am going to come back to that quickly. The second thing. We are not dealing with the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act here. There is a legislation which deals with that. What the Procurement Act does is to put systems in place, in which you can identify corruption and the other legislations kick in.

The next set of issues is an ideological question. I think the DA must not mislead South Africans. The DA has to make it clear where it stands on the issue of the advancement of black people. That is a key question, if you deal with this issue.
They must still be clear. They are beating about the bush. They are not clarifying where they stand on the advancement of black people. That is the key question. That is the key question. What they do is to hide behind corruption and behind the racial thing. The South African society is a society ...
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chair, on a point of order: I just want to understand what happened to the Minister’s hand. Is it those things of a happy ending?

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay. Thank you, hon member. That is not a point of order. It is a question.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The critical question is that the South African society is crafted in a racial mould. We cannot address that without addressing that racial mould.

Let me conclude by saying - my time is running out - if you read Census 2022, those are facts. It described how South Africa has progressed over the time. Come the elections date, you will all be shocked.


Niza kufa isiqaqa.




The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members!
Let’s start by saying that, when the presiding officer opened
the sitting of today, he didn’t emphasise that we need also to be in the House and behave as being in the House. And I am saying it now, here that, if you do it and I call your name, more than twice, the third time, you have to excuse yourself and leave the room without me saying that, because I am going to do that. I am addressing all members and then we are going to proceed. [Interjections.] I hope you are not responding to this is. Is it a point of order? Okay, you are not going to do that. You are not allowed to.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Yes, I am responding. Where is that Rule, Chairperson. You just make things up, as we go along.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you very much. Take a seat. Please, take your seat.

Mr M N PAULSEN: This is not a playground.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): What is ... Hon Paulsen, at least you have taken your seat.

Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).


There was no debate.


The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report and Bill accordingly adopted.



There was no debate.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report and Bill be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report and Bill accordingly adopted.





(First Reading debate)


Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson ...


... besenginibingelele ngaphambili Ndlu ehloniphekile, ...



... the ANC supports the 2023 Adjustment Appropriation Bill.

Ngaphambi kokuthi ngiqhubeke, mina akuve ngiyithanda i-DA ne- FF Plus, ...

 ... they're not confused about who their constituency is, and it's everybody else, but not black people. What you have just come out of demonstrates that beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm still waiting for the day when the DA and the FF Plus and your amper [almost] DA will support anything transformative. As we support this Bill, we are aware that we are in the middle of
16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence. The triple challenges on women are a manifestation of this violence against women, especially in our country. This realisation prompted the former president of the ANC, comrade Oliver Tambo to say:

The liberation of the land of our birth and all of its people will materialise as a genuinely popular victory on the basis of the involvement of the masses including women in their millions as a conscious and active part of the anti-racist and anti-colonial democratic movement in South Africa.

He continued to say:
Our revolution cannot be complete as long as women who constitute the majority of our country still living in abject poverty.

This Bill, among others, had to deal with this unfortunate legacy. What does this Bill do? It mainly provides for the increases or decreases set out in the main Appropriation Act. These changes are a result of significant and unforeseeable economic and financial events, like the lower than expected revenue collection to unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure totalling R1,75 billion, this is mainly for the municipal disaster recovery grant for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of municipal infrastructure damaged by floods in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo. This shows beyond any reasonable doubt from a reasonable person, of course, the ANC is always ready and willing to catch and assist those who would be left to fend on their own. These are the majority of the people of South Africa, unlike those who have insurance.


Uthi uKhongolose, ngeke unishiye nidengwane, nisebunzimeni. Sizohlala njalo sibeka ukuphepha nenhlalakahle yabantu baseNingizimu Afrika phambili. Nizinike ithuba nani nibheke
ukuthi uKhongolose solokho wangena usuwenzeni. Khona manje sikhuluma ngezindlu ezakhiwayo, sikhuluma ngoxhaso lwabafundi kwimfundo ephakeme u-NSFAS, okuyimanje ume ku-R47,6 billion.


Lest we forget, the ANC is still cleaning the mess which was deliberately crafted to exclude, impoverish and oppress a black child. We see others coming here with crocodile tears about the plight of poor people, the majority of whom are black people, women and children.


Nazini ngobubha nokuhlupheka? Nikufunda ezincwadini kuphela.



This Bill, is tabled with the intention of alleviating poverty, which is most felt by ... hon Chair, somebody is saying I am mad. Is that parliamentary?

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Who is that hon member if I may ask, hon members?

Mr N S BUTHELEZI: A member on this side.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Which member?


Mr N S BUTHELEZI: No, somebody said it.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, hon member, who said so? Who said that? [Interjections.] Unfortunately, I didn’t see the member and you are not assisting. [Interjections.] Which one? Okay, let’s proceed. [Interjections.] Hon members, order. Is the member next to hon Nodada? Hon Nodada, can you stand up? You are being identified as the person who said so. [Interjections.] Hon members, no.
Hon Nodada, somebody is saying it is you good sir and that they heard that person. May you stand up and confirm and give us a sense of confidence that it was you?

Mr B B NODADA: Chair, I said ...


... ukuphambanisa izinto.



That means you are confusing things.

Nk C N NDABA: Hayi, udlala ... [Akuzwakali.] ... uyaganga wena.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No! Hon Claudia! Hon members, equally the Rules of the House sitting in terms of the Ninth Edition applies to the hon members on the virtual platform. You are not allowed to voice your voice without being recognised unless you have raised your hand. Hon members, to all of us, including my good self as a member, do please desist from making unparliamentary comments through using so-called heckling and relying on the Presiding Officer not to hear you, but also using a language that can be interpreted either way, so that the House can proceed smoothly. If we can be assisted with that, that will be much appreciated from this side. Hon Buthelezi, you may proceed.

Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, let me take a personal detour, the last time I heard a young black man, next to white people, saying that I was mad was in 1984 when I was arrested. It was a policeman, who when I told him the ANC would be in government, said I was mad. So in about 30 years, I'm hearing the same thing. I'm just saying it. I'm not taking it lightly, hon member. ... the womenfolk of our country. I'm referring to
economic violence, which for three-and-a-half centuries was visited upon black women. That is why over 60% of consolidated noninterest expenditure is still allocated to the social wage, mainly health, education and social development.

This budget still ensures we have no-fee paying schools, that our children eat when they are in school, and that we extend the SRD grant.


Iningi lamaLungu ePhalamende ayazi ukuya esikoleni ilanga lonke ungadlile.


I know some of you only read about these things in books. When the economy grew less than anticipated and revenue was lower than was forecast in February, the increasing budget deficit from 4% of GDP to 4,9%, the responsible ANC government had to intervene mainly to protect the fiscus and sovereignty of our country. When things are tough, we don't throw our hands in the air, but confront the challenges head-on. Let me remind you that we have been faced with similar challenges before. In 1994, when the democratic government came and took over, the people of South Africa inherited a huge apartheid debt. It is
a debt which was mainly incurred to oppress and exploit black people in this country. It is debt that was incurred to allow the apartheid government, a crime against humanity, to go to Lesotho, Botswana, Mozambique and many other neighbouring states to kill and maim women and children in their sleep.

The ANC did not say this is apartheid debt, we will not pay, difficult as it was, we confronted the problem head-on.
Therefore, even now, we will not allow our fiscus to collapse. The reprioritisation of budget cuts and postponement of certain programmes is informed by this understanding. We stressed the budget to be reprioritised mainly from nonperforming grants. My comrades, who will speak after me, will show that growth-enhancing budgets were protected. The role of business is critical in our country’s endeavour to grow the economy. Fixed investments are still too low compared to what is envisaged in the by the National Development Plan, NDP. The revelation at the Competition Commission by Standard Chartered Bank of the collusion by the banks in manipulating the external value of the rand is disappointing, to say the least. The silence by parties like the DA and FF Plus on this economic crime is deafening. The impact of that criminal activity will be felt for a long time to come. When the banks artificially collude to weaken the rand, the following
happens, among other things, fuel price, which is always dollar-denominated increases for South Africans, all goods rely on transport, so these prices are passed to the already struggling consumers. Because a weak rand is inflationary, collusions lead to high-interest rates.

Mokoena from Rustenburg and Dlamini from KaNyamazane, all suffer because of this unbridled greed of those who collude to maximise profits. The committee is concerned by the continued reliance on imported products, so we urge the government, Madiba, to please procure locally and make sure that we produce things locally. I take this opportunity to wish all of you, our support staff, parliamentary staff and our families a happy festive season. Let us not forget the suffering of women and children in Gaza.


Phansi ngokuhlukunyezwa kwabantu besifazane nezingane zethu, phansi! Siyabonga.

Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, in February the Minister presented the budget based on a projective economic growth of 0,9% and revised it down to 0,8% in November. Growth declined by 0,2 in
the last quarter and will likely fall further by February next year driving more jobs out of our economy.

Tax revenue was overstated in February and reduced in November. This is when the ANC government demonstrated to the people of South Africa that it doesn’t care about the daily battle to survive the cost of living crisis in an economy growing slower than the population increase and therefore reducing GDP per capita and making everyone poorer.

The government cut will hurt the most in allocations to provinces and municipalities heavily impacting on infrastructures, informal settlements, education, healthcare and social services access by the most vulnerable South Africans.

The Western Cape government is declared an intergovernmental dispute to fight these misallocations. The Public Sector Wage Bill that now patronises 30 000 millionaire managers who consumed R40 billion a year excluding bonuses is unaffordable.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon George, just take your seat. Hon Gwarube?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, the members of the ANC are drowning the speaker. We can barely hear him.
Please, can you protect him.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order. Hon members, we can heckle but we can’t drown the speaker.
Just be careful on that. Hon George, you may proceed.

Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, the Public Sector Wage Bill that now patronises 30 000 millionaire managers who consumed
R40 billion a year excluding bonuses is unaffordable and put every province under even more financial pressure.

Minister, what happened to your commitment to address the mushrooming of Public Sector Wage Bill? The Minister did nothing to stimulate economic growth, nothing to improve the negative sentiment that is driven out foreign direct investment and nothing to encourage the domestic savings that are crucial to draft small business development and entrepreneurship. This lack of imagination reflects the incompetent, dysfunctional and corrupt ANC government fixated on becoming the developmental state that is not any way near capable of building. This is reflected on an ongoing fiasco
with Eskom that despite the billions in bailouts is still wiping foods of South African tables.

There is no sign of the public sector partnerships that the Minister mentioned and we welcome. Transnet is now broken our rail and sport facilities; essential infrastructure does not only ensure the quality of our daily lives but also to generate jobs. The Minister so-called tough lines never got started and now Transnet will receive a R47 billion bailouts with money that government doesn’t have. Where is the private sector partnership member, Minister?

The government is already overextended in debt with interest payments now the largest line item on the balance sheet. As it becomes increasingly fragile, the government is now attempting to take desperate measures and liquidate reserves held by the SA Reserve Bank, SARB. The SARB holds the golden foreign exchange continuous in the reserve account on behalf of the government. It is currently valued at approximately
R459 billion. The reserve is unrealised foreign exchange gains essentially pay per entries in a ledger whose value can only be realised by selling the underline assets. In this case forex reserves gold bars. The reserve exists for the rainy day when the currencies needs support and not to plug a massive
pre-election hold in the budget. They will take notice when the country’s takes measures and lowers the estimation of potential investors. Typing the reserve also send the message that government department no longer need to reduce expenditure to match the countries’ dwindling tax revenue.
Raiding the Reserve Bank is not a quick fix, put our country at risk and we will resist it. We will also resist any tax increases that the Minister want impose on the already overburden tax payers.

National Treasury has indicated that an additional R15 billion need to be raised. South African households are battling to maintain their lifestyle that they work so hard to achieve as they struggle to pay for the basic necessities of life in the midst of a gruelling cost of living crisis without response from the government that doesn’t care. It doesn’t care that almost 5 million children are staring and 12 million South Africans go to bed hungry every night.

Where is the action plan to curb food prices and enhance food security and accessibility that Cabinet mandated the economic cluster to develop? Instead of increasing taxes a DA government would reduce the tax and levy on fuels. Increase the rebate on the installation of solar panels and expand the
zero vat rated food basket to include burning chicken, beef, wheat flour, margarine, peanut butter, baby food, tea, coffee and soup powder. These will provide households with more disposable incomes and more nutrition on their tables. After almost 30 years in government, the ANC’s brought our economy to the brink of collapse, wasteful expenditure put our country into financial difficulty, broken our electricity, our railways, our ports and tarnish our international repetition as now our grey listed and distrusted financial participants friendly to Russia, Iran and other rogues.

Even more job losses are coming with athylometal shutting down operations, Volkswagen considering its options and the mining industry shrinking even more. Very tough times lie ahead as does enormous opportunity. In February, the DA will set out our immediate priorities for our implementation after the election next year when the people of South Africa take the future out of the hands of a broken ANC.

Likely DA Western Cape government came to the rescue of Knysna sinking under the pile of rubbish, a sewage crisis and no water in its taps brought to it by an ANC coalition of corruption with the EFF, PBI and the Patriotic Alliance. The
DA will rescue South Africa. We do not support this Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, the previous speaker forgot to mention that Knysna is the home of the outgoing Premier of the Western Cape and it is currently co-govern by the EFF. The Western Cape will one day govern by the EFF.

Chairperson, President Ramaphosa is presiding over a failing state evident in the escalating annual budget deficits. The government is expected to borrow an average of R553 billion annually over the medium term. The gravity of the situation is highlighted by the projection of gross debts surpassing
R6 trillion by 2025-26, accounting for 77% of GDP, a figure higher than initial focus at.

South Africa faces a real fiscal crisis that could lead to a systemic economic risk. The escalating rising debt service costs and the ANC government failure to stimulate economic growth threaten to cripple the country. In terms of the human capital index, South Africa ranks 135 out of a 173 countries highlighting the government inadequacy.
Despite not being amongst the top 10 global polluters, the government is pushing for low carbon economy. This approach neglects over 200 years of coal reserves, which could provide the necessary base-load of economic drive and economic growth. Recent low growth is attributed to the independent panel of expert report which cited the destruction of property, loss of life and significant revenue losses for businesses. They attributed much of the declamatory to the National Security Council, NSC, failure to process available intelligence information.

The person charring the NSC accused of money laundering failed to convene the committee and is urged to step down for his role in the crime track deterioration. The revised fiscal framework presented further illustrate the issue at hand.

The ANC’s lack of practical and believable plan to address South Africa’s economic disaster is now undeniable. The employment crisis affecting 11 million people, its failure to address meaningfully celebrating the creation of 1 million jobs in the face of 1 million unemployed and over 28 million reliant on social grant is misguided and foolish. The situation involves individuals eager and desperate for work.
Conditional grants for metropolitan and major municipalities to explore on and off grid generation solutions of vital to protect poor households and SMMEs expanding tax incentive to working class households is essential and the current fiscal policies favour the wealthy and financial sectors. Parliament must hide the recommendation of the parliamentary budget office and the financial and Fiscal Commission using its powers to amend the fiscal framework.

In conclusion, Chairperson, the EFF reject the current state of affairs and advocate for this necessary changes. Thank you very much.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Chairperson, as we draw the curtains on this year’s parliamentary proceedings, I’m grateful for the opportunity to address the Assembly. In this time of global uncertainty and national challenges, it is imperative that we oppose budgetary consideration with a profound sense of responsibility and foresight. I am here to reiterate that the unfortunate reality we face today is a direct consequence of the Ruling Party’s failure to put the people and the country first. The ANC is the party that has failed the people of South Africa. The future of our country as outlined in the
budget statement is not looking good. The economic outlook is bleak, to say the least.

The person concerns about escalating debt is rising cost to save this this debt, and an alarming debt to Gross Domestic Product, GDP, ratio that threatens the very foundation of our fiscus. The budget as it stands today, poses a serious threat to service delivery and area that is already found wanting.
The sad part in all of this is that South Africa is a land of many opportunities and has so much potential for greatness, yet the government is its own enemy. Greed and incompetence being the driving forces and I hope people remember this, coming elections day. Persistent load shedding remains one of the greatest challenges faced by this nation and the individuals tasked with remedying this seems to have not clear answers.

The ailing state of state-owned enterprises, SOEs, is one of our greatest failures. Irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure is so rife at state companies that is that it is impossible to calculate how many billions are lost to corruption. You should listen so that you do better. There’s fraud and theft every year. Even the Auditor-General has noted in many of its audit reports that it is impossible to
determine if the figures provided by the SOE’s are accurate. I implore the people of South Africa as we approach the 2024 elections. Let us rid this country of bad governance and gross mismanagement. This country deserves a better legacy for future generation. It is time to decisively remove the ANC from power. Thank you.

Mr W W WESSELS: Chairperson, the hon Buthelezi says a lot, and he speaks about addressing poverty, being there for the poor, addressing infrastructure backlogs and problems, but the Adjustment Appropriation Bill, which he wants to have approved here today, does the exact opposite. It takes or gives
R300 million to the represented political parties fund, whilst taking away R306 million from public works and infrastructure. How is that investing in infrastructure? It gives the Department of Defence R1,3 billion while taking away
R1,754 billion from basic education whilst schools are falling apart and whilst children are suffering.

You take away from education and you give to the Department of Defence, who recently paid R5 million for a funeral, that is where your priorities are. This Bill takes away R1,561 billion from the Department of Health, whilst people are suffering in hospitals and clinics. People are dying, babies are dying,
people have to suffer the consequences of poor and inadequate healthcare, and that’s not the fault of the past, it’s the fault of the current ANC noncaring government. You take away from Health and you then give R80 million to the protection of your Ministers, the VIP protection services. The people out there will see that you do not care. You take away
R496 million from Agriculture and Land Reform, whilst you say that is your priority.

You take away R3,84 billion from Human Settlements whilst people do not have adequate housing. You have an energy crisis, you all admit that, but you take away R430 million from energy resources, programs and projects, how is that logical? You take away R1,27 billion from Transport whilst roads are in a complete mess, and you take away R881 million from Water and Sanitation, whilst taps are dry, and people do not have adequate water supply. You say you are serious about corruption, Chairperson, but public servants who are doing business with government during this year, increased not decreased. You are doing nothing to actually address that problem.

The people who do not have running water, the people who do not have basic service delivery, the people who are suffering
in hospitals, the people who have children that do not have educate adequate access to education, they know, hon Buthelezi, that they are not the ANC’s constituents. The ANC’s constituents have narrowed to a very few rich, powerful people, your fat cat Comrades, and the people out there are suffering. This Appropriation Bill proves that, and you can’t prove the opposite. You’re taking away whilst your Ministers live in luxury, whilst your millionaire officials live in luxury, the people out there are suffering. Then you come here with rhetoric about the past. That is old, it is old news, and the electorate out there realise that there’s a news story. We need a responsible government because the South Africans deserve better. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Chair, low economic growth has resulted in tax revenue collection being projected to fall short of this year’s budget estimate by staggering R56,8 billion in 2023 and R121,4 billion over the next two years, and this the ACDP, I’m sure as well as everyone in the House finds deeply concerning. What are the causes of this? Well, it’s lower commodity prices, which is an external factor, weaker global growth also an external factor, but internally, an increased incidence of load shedding and Transnet logistics crisis have significantly
impacted on corporate tax collections. These latter to our issues that we can address.

Obviously, there are also global geopolitical events, including the war in Russia and Ukraine, but when we have our own goals which are foreseeable like Transnet and Eskom, should have been avoided. Now, as indicated in the Adjustment Appropriation Bill, there were significant reductions and even Parliament will face a budget cut going forward. The question is, how is Parliament going to manage with budget cuts as well? Hard pressed households are already facing spiralling cost of living increases and will not be able to afford. possible tax increases that could be included in next year’s budget. As a result. Of the revenue shortfall, government debt and debt service costs are set to rise, again a matter of great concern.

Gross loan debt is now expected to peak at staggering
R6,133 trillion or 77,7% of GDP. Debt service costs, this is the biggest concern and this, I’m sure hon Minister, concerns you as well. Debt service costs continue to spiral and crowd out expenditure on much needed items like health, education, fighting, crime and social services and out of every R5 collected, R1 is paid to our lenders, and this is
unsustainable going forward, and we all know the solution is much improved economic growth.

Sadly, GDP contracted by 0,2% in quarter three of this year, after two successive quarters of growth, and this is regrettable. The main constraints, as we know, to economic growth and job creation are corruption, particularly in public procurement, Eskom’s load shedding, Transnet’s dysfunctional logistics sector and what we believe are poor policy decisions by government. The ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, yesterday we learned that our economy contracted by 0,2% in the third quarter. Our country has an economic crisis and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, failed to present a vision or pathway to get us through the economic morass. There was virtually nothing in the MTPS to provide solace to struggling consumers. No concrete plans to address low economic growth, inflationary pressures, or the high cost of living. Instead, we were warned to brace for tax hikes in February and possibly including a VAT increase. The freight logistics road map was promising in theory, including bringing in the support to the private sector. But one looks over the Indian Ocean, outside the port
of Durban and the freight logistics crisis is clear for all to see. Investing in and fixing our logistics sector fundamental to our potential to grow. The current state of the sector is hampering exports and killing growth every day. It’s worrying, however, that to date there hasn’t been much private sector uptake. There is an increased reliance on a reference to the private sector providing public infrastructure and services.

South Africa must ensure that its financial and economic policies and plans are coherent and implemented, or the reliance on the private sector will not deliver the hopeful goods. At the same time, the country must take care to avoid an over reliance on the private sector that would potentially deepen inequality and exclusion. Arguably, the greatest beneficiaries of the MTPS were municipalities that have been collecting electricity revenue from consumers but not paying their debts to Eskom. Writing off municipalities debts instead of revising their funding model will likely lead to their reoffending. The consumers who pay for their electricity derive no direct benefit from that deal.

The Minister’s remarks on the transformation of the electricity sector were positive, though a stable supply of electricity requires both transmission, infrastructure, and
supply; renewable or not. The green growth strategy also sounds good, expensive as it sounds in the short-term, we don’t have a choice but to embrace the transition to electric vehicles. This has been an important contributor to the Economic Recovery and Growth Plan of several developed nations. Our automotive sector must lay the groundwork for the transition so that we are not left behind.

The announcement of the continued funding of the COVID Social Relief of Distress grant is positive, even more so with the news that we are reviewing our total social grant system. If we reform the structure of our budgeting and economy as we have been promising to do for many years, we could afford to pay a basic income grant of about R1 000 a month. The only way to affect real change is through implementing zero-based budgeting that challenges the impact of each rand that the government spend. Thank you.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr R M M Lesoma): Hon Matumba, I’m tempted, but I would say, I am giving you the 1st and the last warning. Thank you. I now recognise hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson, you see Minister, this is why I say, if we can tighten the belt in that local authority,
local municipalities, we won’t find ourselves in the situation we are. There are hundreds of billions of rands getting looted through procurement, starting at local government right up to national ... If you notice, Minister, every single day there’s a new story about somebody looting somewhere. I think the media is enjoying this because there is no end. There’s not a single day that you can see the media and you don’t hear about some corruption somewhere. And I gave you a good example of what I have seen in Limpopo over the weekend and how these
R18 million and R100 million contracts are not even completed? But having said that, I think it is also time to make sure that these local authorities become self-sufficient. You know, nothing, absolutely nothing. They just want to rely on handouts. Nothing stops them from developing those areas, creating industries, creating jobs in those areas so that you can boost economic growth and move away from that migration system that we have had during the days of apartheid where family members leave their homes and go miles away and only visit the homes once a year, and that is creating this dysfunctional society we also find ourselves in. The other thing is that the money here, there’s no new money, if I understand, that has been allocated. These monies that are being reallocated or being redistributed or redirected is because of the underspending that were in several other
departments or sectors. All you are doing, is taking it from A and giving it to B. Now, the question we should be asking: What are we in this House doing about the underperformance and the underspending by these relevant departments? That is where we should ... Yes, we are all correct that it does affect those, when you take money away from a particular department, but you take it away because you didn’t spend it. So, it’s going to affect ... So, who should be blamed for that? Must you leave it and give them more when they can’t spend the money? No, you can’t. So, I think that’s the other problem that we need to ... My concern, Minister is with the National Health Insurance, NHI, with budget cuts. How is that NHI going to be implemented and be successful? Right now, up to this very day, we don’t have an idea of exactly where that money is going to come from. And it’s the same thing, I mean, can you imagine the complaints that were raised about infrastructure? And despite that, you can see the performance of infrastructure in the country, which we are told is the driving force in economic growth. I want to say, Minister, please, we beg you, no more tax increases for South Africans, go and get it from foreigners in this country. Reduce the burden of taxes because we are losing taxpayers in this country. Go after those foreigners that are not paying taxes. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr O M MATHAFA: House Chair, hon members, South Africans ...



Ndi masiari.



House Chair, please note the ANC supports this report. I will open my submission by quoting President Ramaphosa when he remarked in his Sona of February 2023:

South Africa is known to be a resilient nation. Time after time, we have persevered against the odds and have emerged stronger no matter the situation. As a nation, we have never shied away from difficult situations or issues that sought to tear our country apart.

House chair, this Adjustments Appropriation Bill is being deliberated during a very difficult fiscal period characterised by the events succinctly alluded to by the chairperson, hon Buthelezi, especially the effects of the currency manipulation. I agree with him that the silence of the opposition is deafening, especially when they take the podium and claim to be representing the poor. But they said nothing about the effect of this on the cost of living that is
impacting the poor. My submission will highlight how the Adjustments Appropriation Bill responds to these realities and bring to the fore the green shoots from economic interventions made by the ANC government providing that South Africa under the ANC is a resilient country, and we shall weather the storm. I will show you hypocrisy, give me time.

The Bill reflects an addition of R2 billion from self- financing expenditure, a R2 billion reduction because of declared unspent funds. Based on this, we support the call in the MTPS by the National Treasury for departments to tighten their control of procurement and project implementation processes. Another R578 million has been approved for rollover, reparting the argument from the opposition that no infrastructure projects are being implemented in the country. I will talk more on the other completed projects amid these trying economic conditions later. An additional R1 billion in expenditure is earmarked in the 2023 budget for the Sars to improve its revenue raising capabilities. It is worth mentioning that the Infrastructure Fund as announced by the President in the 2018 is on track and has thus facilitated the approval of 13 blended finance projects and programmes valued at R48,8 billion, a massive contribution to the incorporation of private sector investment in government projects and acting
on the ANC conference affirmation that expanded infrastructure investment play a critical role in basic services to citizens. The below adjustment confirms the statement by Treasury that spending revisions are targeted to protect critical frontline services, including Basic Education, Health, and Police Services.

House Chair, on Basic Education, the increased budget of

R4,5 billion ensures that 9 million learners in 21 453 primary and secondary schools continue receiving daily nutritious meals through the National School Nutrition Programme. The North West government, in collaboration with Royal Bafokeng Platinum completed and handed over a R140 million school with
32 smart classrooms. Two thousand one hundred and fifty-five learners will benefit from this school going forward, a clear response to the ANC 55th national conference resolution on education that digitalized learning material, digital and technological spaces are important for advanced teaching and learning, as such their access must be increased. Further, this project also saw local beneficiation for local subcontractors and suppliers within the construction space.

On higher education, we are pleased to report that 2,9 million students are benefiting from the department’s budget
allocation or R47,6 billion from National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, to both universities and TVET colleges, covering fees for tuition, accommodation, meals, living allowance, and transport in some instances. The Minister of Higher Education, Science and Technology, Dr Blade Nzimande, recently opened the uMgungundlovu Technical and Vocational Education and Training College, Msinga campus, in KwaZulu- Natal, and investment of R143,5 million. The TVET offers training in areas such as farming, management, mechatronics, amongst others, hon Vessels. This campus is part of government’s commitment to ensure that there is at least one TVET college per district and more than one in district with larger geographical spread. It is part of government’s continued and intentional investment to improve access to post-matric education as part of equipping the nation for the future.

On health, notwithstanding the R30 million reductions on compensation of employees, which surely affect the filling of critical post in the department. We welcome the R6,8 billion allocations towards the Wage Bill agreement. Hon members, Cabrillo’s research data of 2019 showed that South African nurses averaged 21,536USSD per year compared to the global average of 26,698, a situation that leads to brain drain of
medical professionals leading to the doctor-patient ratio declining from 21,9 physicians per 100 000 people in the year
2 000 to 19,9 per 100 000 in 2001. The ratio for nurses also

shrank from 120,3 per 100 000 in 2 000 to 111,9 per 100 000 in the year 2021. So, House chair, those who always come to this podium and shout bloated Wage Bill must tell us against what measure are they making their assertion? And, if the public sector size and remuneration paid to the public sector employees, encourage a responsive government to the 60 million population as per their current census ... But again, it is not surprising, the opposition, particularly the DA and FFPlus are known to be speaking on both sides of their mouth. On one side, they call the public sector senior managers, millionaire managers and fat cats, yet on 27th November, in the City of Tshwane, the DA paraded seven new appointees in the city who are guaranteed a yelling renumeration with a minimum of a million to a maximum of R3,2 million per year to each employee. Are they fat cats? Are they millionaire managers as well? Why are you quiet when we speak of such issues and yet you are quiet when chief executive officers and chief operating officers in private sector earn 200 000 to 500 000 per day when their lowest paid employees are earning the minimum wage of R25 per day. While we know the R1 billion redirection from the HIV/Aids Conditional grant, it is also
worth mentioning that the department was able to save the fiscus R6,5 billion through negotiating better rates in the procurement of Arv’s from suppliers, a point made earlier on tightly managing procurement processes.

House Chair, on trading industry, to rejuvenate manufacturing, R21,3 million has been shifted to the incentives programme for manufacturing development incentives through the reimagined industrial strategy investment seen in special economic zones like the Tshwane Special Economic Zone, SEZ, which introduced local production of the automotive sector. The SEZ has since created 625 jobs. The combined impact of SCZ and industrial across industrial parks across the country has resulted in the creation of estimated 65 000 jobs. Madam Speaker, once again the ANC supports this report. I will end by saying from the river to the sea, Palestinos will be free. Thank you so much.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: House Chairperson, yesterday it was widely reported that the South African economy is heading for recession, of the gross domestic product, GDP, data on the third quarter indicated the economy shrank 0,2% from the second quarter to the third quarter.
So, why should this be of concern to ordinary South Africans? Well, quite simply, an economy that shrinks as ours is doing sheds jobs. It does not create them. This is obviously of grave concern in a country where over 40% of the population cannot find a job and we have a growing cost of living crisis.

House Chair, the economy is not like the weather. A responsible and caring government does not just hunker down and ride it out. A responsible, caring, and capable government realizes that policy decisions are the leaders which with which we can grow the economy and/or cause it to shrink.

House Chair, one does not grow the economy by years of low shedding, endless state-owned enterprises, SOEs bailouts, race based procurement policies, raising taxes on a shrinking tax base, or by proposing to rate the Reserve Bank, by enforcing some of the strictest labour laws on the planet and importantly, taking money from provincial service delivery, and rather, paying above inflation increases to ANC millionaire managers that are just getting richer and richer, while South Africans are getting poorer and poorer.

The DA has presented our solutions many times. They are simple and immediately implementable and will grow the economy,
create jobs, and ultimately empower people to take new opportunities created by a growing economy.

These solutions include expanding the zero-rated value-added tax, VAT, basket on essential food items. Cutting government taxes on fuel and bringing almost 30% relief to consumers, which is sure to have an impact on rampant inflation. Increase the rebate on solar panels and systems, so energy stability can be achieved by more individuals than small-medium enterprises, SMMEs. Get rid of rice-based procurement policies and implement the DA’ social justice policy, where procurement preference is given to suppliers that meets the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals.

Simply put, this means private sector companies that can help alleviate hunger, help educational institutions, create clean water solutions, battle poverty, or help achieve any of the other sustainable development goals, SDGs, will be preferred suppliers to government, thereby rewarding businesses that help truly empower our communities.

And House Chair, through you the hon Finance Minister asked earlier that the DA must be clear on where we stand on empowerment. House Chair, I don’t think we can be clearer. We
absolutely 100% supportive empowerment of all South Africans that actually need empowerment. By policies like our social justice policy that will partner with the private sector to reduce unemployment, poverty, and inequality for all South Africans. Unlike the ANC, who thinks that empowerment is when the already rich ANC cadres get richer.

In 2024 the choice for voters should be clear. Only the DA has what it takes to rescue South Africa. We do not support this, Bill. Thank you.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Greetings House Chairperson and the House. The ANC supports the Bill. These Bills are not about political party affiliation. They’re about the people of this country. The real impact on the economy and the transformation that South Africans need.

Our opposition parties here today would rather not support the initiatives through the budget to affect changes to the lives of our people, to keep them safer, to build infrastructure and secure social assistance to the poor and the vulnerable in our society.
Unlike them, the ANC has a historical social contract with the people of this country, to bring the necessary transformation to ensure that everyone enjoys the fruits of our democracy.

This Bill addresses key aspects related to social economic conditions in our country. The security of our country is critical for maintenance of territorial integrity. The resource allocation to peace and the security must be understood within the context of increasing unpredictability at the global level. As we can see the escalating political, economic, and social conflict within the emergence of global ideological contestation.

Also, on the domestic front, we are confronted with a lot, one can mention violence, crime, social unrest, degradation of society and if all these are left unattended, these will threaten our democracy. Hence, maintenance of peace and security is essential not only for our democracy, but also for the growth and transformation of our society.

This Bill therefore allocates an additional 3,3 billion to SA Police Service for the upgrading and construction of police stations, as well as improving the visibility of a policing in general.
This allocation will have ripple effects also in terms of job creation, safer communities, and increased demand in the economy.

The South African National Defence Force is given an additional 1,3 billion to strengthen the capabilities of SANDF. The SANDF also plays a critical part in reconstruction of our society. Maybe these ones do not understand that SANDF is currently addressing infrastructure backlog space, particularly in the rural provinces like Eastern Cape,
KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, and Northwest, Free State and Limpopo, pro the program called Welisizwe Rural Bridges Programme.

And this programme is not only making people accessible to the roads and all, but it is also labour intensive, creating a number of working opportunities through the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP.

A number of skills is actually transferred to the workers and communities. In fact, I can mention House Chair, that there would always be about 40 EPWP workers, over the medium term, imagine we have built 48 bridges, now that would tell you that the rural provinces at a cost of 3,3 billion, have managed to create a total of 6270 job opportunities each financial year.
Let me quickly talk about the borders. The porous borders, are a threat to the country. Remember, we have got 4854 kilometres and you’ve got 72 ports of entry, nine seaports and 2798 kilometres as well as 10 airports.

Now, the ANC understand the importance of border security, as a result, Home Affairs is allocated 1,3 billion to capacitate the new Border Management Agency, which aims to strengthen border control and give authority, effective to all the ports of entry within the border law enforcement area. In all this that I’m talking about, there’s an estimated 38,000 jobs that will be created.

Now, this Adjustment Appropriation Bill, makes commitment to continue financing critical infrastructure projects and sustaining EPWP program, which has created 14 million job opportunities since 2004.

Now, if you care, today I’m focusing on opening your minds on how the ANC-led government has managed to create jobs. An incentive grant of 1,3 billion is allocated to public bodies, to incentivize job creation through EPWP programme, which will sustain the jobs that I am talking about.
MISA, which is the municipal infrastructure support agent, has implemented infrastructure projects where 200 million as a contribution towards eradication of services backlogs, implemented and complemented water and sanitation, more than
500 experts, including young graduates, are being deployed to municipalities.

But let me touch this, let me touch this House Chairperson. You know the white minority is in a program to reverse the gains made by the progressive forces of this country. And they are doing this in many forms.

Uyabona, oyena mntu ufanelwe ziifaskoti ezi nizinxiba apha nina, ngulo umnyama yedwa apha. Ngoyena ufanelwe ziifaskoti ukuze asebenzele injongo yokunxityiswa ifaskoti.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon just hold,
there’s a hand up ... hon Gwarube.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: House Chair, is the member implying that for some reason, because I’m a woman, I should be walking around a in an apron. I just want to
understand, is that the sexism that you are you are stooping to right now?

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gwarube, I will check and seek advice from the front table. The only dilemma that I have, is that he didn’t mention a name, he said “lo”, but never ... no, no, not that I ... don’t assist me. I said I’m going to check with the front table ... hon Gwarube ... oh, now I’m leaving it. Hon Mlenzana continue because she’s defending herself now.

Mr Z MLENZANA: We are painfully aware that the DA goes around bribing traditional leaders. Imagine, imagine, imagine, going out there and buying votes from that poor traditional leader with a bottle of brandy, you know it, you know it.


Niyabonwa. Niyabonwa, sinijongile.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, don’t
drown the speaker.


Mr Z MLENZANA: Also, the silence of the DA is loud, on the conduct of banks and big cartels in manipulating the rand and
inflating the price of goods. The DA, your loyalty and allegiance are against the people of this country. Your focus is on the white private capital.


Sinijongile. Sinijongile, niyabonwa.


We have seen all this that you are doing, niyabonwa [we are watching you] Roughly 7,8 million people rely on Social Relief of Distress Grant, SRD, which you always undermine. And around 60% of government’s budget is spent on the social wage to combat poverty and hunger. Now, when we are talking of combating poverty and hunger. I want you to go to, ward 18, in the City of Cape Town. See how people ...


... abaphila ngakhona eMfuleni.


...in the name of you thinking that you would fight for them. According to the opposition party, particularly DA, these vulnerable people must be left out there on their own devices and starve to death. Because they do not want our people.
Hatred of our people is in them. It is instilled, it is running within their blood stream. They do not love South Africans, but they want to get votes from South Africans and do what they usually do.

You can jump like popcorns today, up and down. They are looking at you. Let me tell you, your day is coming when they will throw you under the bus. Be ready to be thrown under the bus, because you know your masters. Immediately you want to pick up issues and say no, then you would be shown the gate.

Perhaps, let me wrap up my speech by saying, this adjustment budget is not about ... I will always say this, it is not about new money. I will always say this. Two, this Adjustment Appropriations Bill is also trying to discourage under and
non-spending. It cannot be that you will come here, today, you cry foul about departments which are not spending, when we are addressing that through reprioritization, again come here and cry foul.

It means there is an element of confusion somewhere. Or it

means you do not mean what you say. And as I’ve said ...

... sinijongile. niyabonwa. Abantu ...



… there’s a time when they will cry and say ...



... bakhalela ilizwe labo, kuba nalithatha ilizwe lethu ngoku nicinga ukuba niza kuphinda nilithathe ngotywala kwakhona.


Thank you, House Chairperson.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mlenzana, come back, come back, yes, take a seat hon Mlenzana. Hon Mlenzana, then you may stand up, so that I can address the matter. Hon Mlenzana ...

... phakama, ewe yima apho nje ujonge phaya.



Mr Z MLENZANA: Okay ...

... andikuvanga.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Enkosi [Thank you.] Hon members, in terms of Rule 82, under reference to a member in a respectful term in the House, in the Mini-Plenary, members were referred, were also assisted, and reminded ... can you just take out that gentleman or whoever, please? Ohh, it’s translation. Members must refer to each and every member regardless in a respectful term, not only manner but also terms, in terms of the choice of words.

Rule 85, reflection upon members. As presiding officers, we are also meant to respect and uphold Rule 85(1):

No member may impute improper motives to any other member or cast personal reflections upon any members integrity or dignity, or verbally abuse a member in any other manner.

Hon Mlenzana, may you assist this House, when you said, “this member” were you referring to hon Gwarube or? If you may respond.

Mr Z MLENZANA: No, however, House Chairperson, there is no sin in saying I withdraw.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, no, hon member,

I’ve just asked you, were you ...? It’s yes or no.


Mr Z MLENZANA: I’ve said, no.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Ok, you may leave the podium. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chairperson, I always start by thanking the committees that I work with ... [Inaudible.]
... even in this respect I want to thank the appropriation committee, led by uShenge [clang name of Mr Norbert Sfiso Buthelezi]. Very good work by that committee. I like it even when they entertain themselves by putting difficult questions.

I would suggest, Shenge, on the 22nd of February we are going to have another appropriation meeting. It must be physical because I could see how hon Manyi and hon George were agitated during the virtual one. So, let’s see each other physical on the 22nd.

But let me just say, one of the important things is not to trivialise challenges that are confronting the South African
economy. I don’t dispute there could be other challenges, contributory factors, some of them structural.

What we are facing on, for instance on the forecast, it is easy to play a game and suggest that Treasury didn’t focus properly, when in fact, everybody has been moving around. Let me just give you the ... [Inaudible.] ... on International Monetary Fund, IMF.

At the beginning of the ... when we tabled the budget, we said we are at comma 9. The IMF said we are going to have it
comma 1%. Where we sit now, we are saying comma 8, the IMF is saying comma 9. So, it reflects some of these challenges. So, ours is a growth challenge, which we need to address. And I'll deal with that matter in detail on the 21st of February.

What we are facing is a revenue shortfall, and that revenue shortfall is a result of these changes, structural problems we’ve confronted in the economy. And as a result, we had to cut our expenditure. We are going to come back to this.

But let’s not try and suggest that the issue is the wage bill. If you recall, 4,5% of that was already in the hands of the public servants because it was a cash gratuity. We converted
that into the baseline, which was R22 billion of the

R15 billion. So, the total ... actual increase was 3%. So, I wanted to clarify that.

In terms of the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, we still reflect our commitment to make sure that there is tough love. The change in the Eskom conditions is a reflection of that.

In dealing with Transnet, we are not going to repeat the same template. We have already reflected that in tabling of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

But let me correct a lie which is being spread around, not by anybody else, a number of people including government, which Mr Manyi reflected on here. That the conditions we have attached to Eskom are precluding Eskom from doing generation and new capacity. The conditions are: if Eskom wanted ... must focus on maintenance; if Eskom want to go into new generation, well and good, they must provide a genuine case to the Minister of Finance, who shall make the necessary approval.
So, Eskom can go into generation.


The other issue, I want to invite members to read. We publish information for members to read. It’s going to be interesting
now, we’ve just published section 32 reports of the first six months. They are an interesting read in terms of how to the expenditure patterns look like and how are we going to fare by the end of the financial year.

Hon member, George Dion, refers to the gold and foreign exchange reserve account. I’m muted on that. I’m not going to talk about it. If I say anything, it would probably be on the 21st. I’m not going to say anything.

But I want to draw the attention of the member to the ... [Inaudible.] Act, the same Act of 2003, and say, what was happening in that environment? In that, that account went into a deficit, that account. When that account goes into a deficit, what happens? The fiscus funds that account, when it does that, that’s what we did in 2003. Now that that fund is in a surplus they say, people, if you take the surplus you’re looting it. It can’t be right, that language.

What we’re dealing with is poverty of policy and experience; poverty of policy and experience. How does this money ... [Inaudible.] ... itself?
Hon George, I’ve been warning you, some of those policies you’ve been making here. In fact, that’s what Leeds Trust did and my colleague, Kwasi, who was fired while I was having breakfast with him in Washington. What happens is that if you pursue policies like that, cut taxes increases, increase expenditure. What happens? The Leeds Trust government collapsed in less than 50 days in the United Kingdom, UK. Is that the template you want to give for the South African government? Unfortunately, we can’t. We’ve got a responsibility as the government to make pragmatic decisions.

Your policies collapsed the government. My colleague, Minister of Finance, had 38 days in government, uKwasi. [Interjections.]

Yes, the ... [Inaudible.] ... of infrastructure is quite critical, we are going to say something on the 21st of February on it. It’s a major issue which is going to increase government investment.

The DA says ... I mean when people stand up they talk about they deliver. Everybody here is canvassing. Let me tell you the following: I know the DA delivers in the Western Cape. What does it deliver, our walking tracks for and bicycles and
walking tracks for white people? No roads in townships. That’s the delivery they do. That’s their delivered.

What is going to surprise them, they’re going to be surprised even by the outcome of Western Cape. Because they are relaxed in the Western Cape, they’ve made it their monopoly. They’re going to be surprised.

But all your presentations have got racial undertones. [Interjections.] No, we will ... we want to make that point. You know, you’ve got racial undertones. Let me just quote a couple of things. For instance, when we were appointing a Public Protector, one of you made a serious racial undertone that, that black person, that black woman is not rising because she’s intellectual, she’s rising because ... [Interjections.] ... that’s what you are suggesting. That’s what you were suggesting. You continue ... [Interjections.]

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order! Hon members, hon members ... hon Minister ...


... ... khawume kancinci

Hon members, hon members, the screaming and shouting across each doesn’t help. Ans I won’t make a ruling if there’s a point of order ...

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Your speaker in Parliament suggested that ... I was there ... suggested that, that Public Protector rose not because she’s intellectually a good Advocate. And she decided to walk out when we were questioning that thing.

Those things need to be stated. Your leader, Steenhuisen, says all those public servants are going to be fired, because why? They’re not professionals, they are deployed as cadres by the ANC, insulting the intellect of those public servants. We must tell you; these people must be aware when they vote for you, what are they voting for.

The choice between South Africa is a continuity of transformation and stability. That’s a choice between us.

When we go to those polls, South Africans must be told which political party in this country has got the capability to provide stability in this country, and the ANC alone has got
that. And which political party is going to continue with the transformation agenda, is the ANC.

A vote for the DA is the vote for the reversal of the gains we have made. Is the vote for firing all black people in senior positions, that’s what we are saying. A vote for the DA is support for the continued genocide in Gaza, that’s what it means. A vote for the day is the vote that support continued genocide in Gaza.

South Africans [Time expired.] you must not mislead people here ...

Mr I S SEITLHOLO: Leave the podium.


The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order! Hon members, should I call names? Hon Minister, hon Paulsen, hon Minister, hon Paulsen.

Hon members, I did say earlier on that ... hon Minister and hon Paulsen, I’ve called you two times. Now, hon Paulsen, hon Paulsen, it’s the fourth time, and I guess you’ll assist yourself to leave the room.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Then the Minister must leave the room as well.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mkhalipi, hon Mkhalipi. Hon Sonti ... okay.

Hon members ...


... Hayi, undifaka engxakini ke ngoku lungu elihloniphekileyo uSonti.

Hon embers, hon members ... [Interjections.]


Nk N MHLONGO: Usaba uNgqongqoshe noNgqongqoshe akaphume.



The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No! Hon Nqobile,
don’t do that. Okay?


Hon members, that concludes the debate and the 2023 medium ... [Interjections.] ... do you really want me to take you out?
Hon members, that concludes the debate on the 2023 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the First Reading Debate on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill.

Question put.




Agreed to.

Bill read first time.


Agreed to.


The House suspended at 13:22


Business resumed at 14:17



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, let me first thank all the parties for advising our staff on which votes they will record their objections on which they intend
dividing. This information will greatly assist us and assist the process for this session.

Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer, and I shall put each vote in respect of which adjustments have been made, and in turn, members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers.

In respect of this adjustment, each party has been allocated a global time for all votes. Members of the executive have up to two minutes per vote to respond to questions. Hon members, there have been requests from parties that in some instances they will use their allocated time to make a declaration instead of asking questions. This will be allowed. Naturally where there is a declaration instead of a question, there
will be no expectation for a reply.


Once a party's time has expired, its members will not be allowed to put further questions. Members may put a question from the floor microphone in the Chamber or from the virtual platform. Members will be recognised based on the list submitted by parties. I want to emphasize that because I'm not
going to allow any party because I realise the document that I have here has been updated.

In the morning, most parties had not complied to the request. But it has been updated. More parties are here. So, I'm not going to allow any party to come and say we want to make an objection, or we want to put a question because we asked for prior notification of that. I just wanted to emphasize that.

After the question-and-answer session, I will put the votes for decision. So let us understand that the process for now is only for questions and I'm going to call the parties that have submitted that they will be asking on that particular vote. We are together. This will help us to do this in time that is suitable for everybody. So, let's not do what we did not agree upon.

Hon members, I'm going to recognise those parties that are asking questions. We start with Vote 1. Remember, the global time - I just want to put this clearly. The global time includes both questions and declarations. So, if your global time has expired during your question time, don't come and say but. Every party knows their global time. And this Table Staff
here will assist me to say this party only has one minute left or their time is depleted.

So, if that has happened, we go in no way with you. You just have to be a participant in this process. Thank you very much. We have the ANC for Vote 1, the Presidency, to ask the question. Oh, no, we have EFF and ANC for the Presidency. Let me start with the EFF.

We expect that all our Ministers for this and the Minister in the Presidency are on the virtual platform because it would really be difficult for us if the minister is not there to respond. So, I plead with all our executive members to make sure that they are on track with us on the virtual platform. Hon Manyi?

Vote 1- The Presidency - put


Mr M MANYI: House Chair, noting that there's R6, 2 million that will be shared only between two individuals as a top-up to a litany of other benefits that includes cars, security, housing, traveling, and all of that. In this reduction ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Could you please bend a little bit? I cannot hear you from here, I wonder if the others are able to hear.

Mr M MANYI: Can I go there?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No problem.


Mr M MANYI: Thank you House Chair. I was saying, noting that the Presidency, only two people, share R6,2 million, and this is a top-up to cars, a top-up to security, to housing, to traveling and everything else that they get. When we're doing this reduction, didn't the thought cross the mind to reduce this R6,2 million to something lower so that everybody must feel the pain? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon the Minister in the Presidency? Or should I call them all? Okay, thank you.
Okay, the ANC ask your question so that when the Minister comes, he responds to both. I'm advised like that. Thank you.

Mr H G APRIL: Hon Chairperson, we would like to ask the Minister in the Presidency, the continuous outings that we are experiencing as South Africans, the cable thefts that is
happening, what is the plan of our government to address this with urgency? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon Minister in the Presidency, those are the two questions for Vote 1. Do we have a response? That's what I was requesting when we started, hon members. Can you check if the Minister or any Deputy Minister from Presidency is there. Okay. Hon Minister Ntshavheni, please assist us so that we are quick on this, please. Can I hear something? Okay, I'm advised that I must ask the Minister of Finance if he can be able to take the questions as asked.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I may be conflicted on the first question because I may have an interest in what the hon Manyi is saying, that there's still some facts there, as I understand. And also, you're quoting the security. Security belongs elsewhere to police.

Let me just say, I mean, the only undertaking is to look into that and see what can be done. If there's a necessity to make some adjustments, we come back to the House and make the second adjustment appropriation.
In so far as the outages, we have indicated that there's a complex matter which affect the outages. First, are some of the known issues which are related to inefficiencies at Eskom level. As hon member April has affected, there's also some criminality. If people steal cable, no, no, I'm coming to that point and saying if some people do some criminal conduct which impacts on Eskom’s ability to deliver the service, cable theft and so on. Those are matters that need to be dealt with.

We as government, the question is, what are we doing about it? As you are aware, the government and the President put up an important task force to look into the criminal conduct in Eskom. A number of people have been arrested by now. I don't know if the Minister of Police at the appropriate time can reveal the numbers, even the wards of those people who have been convicted in this regard. So, some work is being done to deal with that criminal conduct. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can I remind the Ministers that they have only two minutes in their responses. Even those that are still coming.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: For clarity, is it two minutes per question?









to understand.



That’s fine. Yes. Hon

Deputy Chief Whip?



Chairperson, I want to propose that members can ask their questions from where they are sitting because going to the podium wastes time. Thank you

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, but I'm going to ask them to bend a little bit, because honestly, if you are taller, it's not easy. Yes. I don’t like the sitting down, it doesn't show that decorum of the house. I'm not going to allow the sitting. No. Okay, thank you very much Minister Godongwana for assisting with Vote 1. The answers are given. There is no question for Vote 2, Parliament. We proceed to Vote 3,
Cooperative Governance, and we start with the DA. But you know you must be closer if you want to use this one.

Vote No 3 — Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs


Declaration of vote:

Ms E R J SPIES: This department's budget and performance is indicative of and highlights the fundamental incompetencies within this department. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has time and time again failed to provide clear guidelines and workable interventions to turn around the state of local government. This lack of clarity leaves critical decisions hanging in legal limbo, undermining the very essence of a coherent and structured governance system. It is therefore no surprise that when the DA puts forward constructive proposals, the Minister responds unprofessionally and arrogantly.


Die Departement van Samewerkende Regering en Tradisionele Sake is soos ’n wond wat nooit genees nie. Gekwalifiseerde oudit op gekwalifiseerde oudit, biljoene ongespandeerde fondse, Ministers kom en gaan. Waarom onsself aan ’n wond smeer wat
nooit genees nie? Dit is die tyd dat die wond heeltemaal ontsmet word.

South Africa’s people deserve a government that operates efficiently, transparently and in accordance with constitutional provisions, not a government in denial. I will say it again. It is totally inconceivable that the Sixth Parliament would ask the blind to lead the cripple across a broken bridge over a river infested with the crocodiles of corruption. The DA cannot support this Budget Vote.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, just for clarity, are you going to put the question to the House or are you going to go through the questions first? We just need to know because we didn't go through Vote No 2. I'm not sure.
Maybe I misunderstood.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): For now, I am not dealing with ... the question. I just want the questions and declarations. Am I right? Yes, I'm not dealing with voting. It's only questions and declarations. If you don't want to ask a question, you can make a declaration. The DA made their
declaration, so there is no need for an answer. Is there a question or a declaration from the ANC?

Mr G G MPUMZA: Minister, we welcome the reprioritisation for the National Disaster Management Centre to receive
R1,5 billion to respond to the impact of disasters. The equitable share for local government has been reduced by R1,4 billion, which goes against the focus on increasing the funding for the local government sphere, which has a significant financial impact. What is the process for reviewing the equitable share?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The Minister of Co- operative Governance, there is a question.

AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, I appreciate the question from hon Mpumza. The review of the local government equitable share, LGES, is on the basis of one looking into the areas which municipalities aren’t able to foretell or forecast, as it relates to disasters. You can imagine that prior to the allocation of the funds ... what the process of the Act and the assessment provides ... for municipalities to do a costed assessment and then submit it to National Treasury. That's
where quite a number of delays happen. The city of eThekwini is an example. Ultimately, out of the April floods, a total of around 700 projects, small and big, came out or emanated from the floods and the disaster fund.

Our view, therefore, is that there has to be preliminary funds that are made available with regard to disasters in case there is a fire, in case there's floods, in case there's even anticipation of day zero, to supplement the infrastructure that the municipalities ... That is day zero as a result of drought ... to supplement the municipalities to be able to begin with the programmes while the assessment and the overall main impact of what the disaster will be about ...

However, as I conclude, the LGES review as well is not only with regard to disasters. Of course, the comment was in relation to disasters. It's also broadly in terms of the Fiscal Framework to ensure that small and rural municipalities are assisted with capacity, which is designed from the District Development Model placed at municipalities.
Municipalities shouldn't be the ones that absorb that cost but rather we, National Treasury and provincial Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs ... should be the ones that place experts at municipalities. The review then gives us that
... a portion of those funds needs to come from us in order to assist municipalities.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, there was no indication of a question or declaration of vote for Vote No 4, so we’ll pass. There was no indication for Vote No 5 — Home Affairs, so we’ll pass. We come to Vote No 6 — International Relations and Co-operation. The NFP?

Vote No 6 — International Relations and Co-operation


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I’ve got a question for the Minister. Could you please advise what is the latest development on the motion that was adopted by this House on the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador until, of course, a ceasefire is put in place, given the fact that many, many people are currently dying as a result of the atrocities by the Israeli government?

Mr A H M PAPO: Minister, the question is what steps will the Department of International Relations and Co-operation and the law enforcement agencies of the country take in relation to South Africans who are actually part of the Israel Defence
Force, IDF, and who are perpetrating atrocities in the Palestine-occupied territories? That's the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before I call on the Minister to respond, I must reiterate to the Table Staff that I have already closed. I don't want to see more parties because we asked this long ago and we agreed on it. So if you missed it, the train is gone. The hon Minister of International Relations and Co-operation?

Chairperson, all hon members and my colleagues, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, good afternoon. The questions that have been posed are not related to the request for adjustment that we've made to Treasury. Nonetheless, let me answer the questions.

Firstly, with respect to the motion adopted by the National Assembly, as per practice the Speaker of the National Assembly has informed the President as head of the executive of the resolution adopted by the National Assembly. The President obviously would have to initiate a discussion in the executive that would then take a view on the motion presented by the National Assembly and then convey the views of the Cabinet to the National Assembly through Madam Speaker. That letter has
been written and we have been informed, and I'm sure that at an appropriate time Cabinet will deliberate on the matter.

With respect to dual nationals serving in the IDF, this is a matter that I have now written to the Minister of Justice about in terms of the laws that we have as South Africa against mercenary activity, and we will hope that the Minister of Justice will give us a proper perspective on how we might address this matter. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members on the platform, please stop doing that. Just check your gadget and press. The red line will appear on top of the microphone. Then you are safe. Hon Swart?

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, I’m just rising on a point of order. I would like clarity. As the Minister indicated, our questions as I understand it should only relate to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. One can make a statement on anything else but I would like your ruling in that regard.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It is true. It is true. It is about adjustments. I read it and I’m clarifying it. It
is like that. It's unfortunate that some of us don't understand, but we allow people to talk and ask questions.

Mr M CHETTY: Even though they don’t understand.



Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Huh-uh, wag ’n bietjie.


Hon members ... Bongi, you had something. What is it? I mustn't jump ... people. And ... reasons why it is only coming now? I said I'm closed. What is happening? Unless it’s your mistake. Okay. Unless it is your office’s mistake that you didn't record people. I'm not going to allow new people now
... new parties to do that.


There was no indication of a request for questions or declarations for the National School of Government. With regard to the National Treasury, we have the EFF. The EFF?


A lotlhe le a emelela?

Nyambose khuluma.


Vote No 8 — National Treasury


Mr E MTHETHWA: Hon Minister, I just want to ask you a question. You announced debt relief for municipalities that have been found wanting by the Auditor-General. Out of
257 municipalities, only 38 have a clean audit; a total of
268 material irregularities accounting for an estimated R5,19 billion. If the ANC cares so much about the poor, why are you not applying the supposedly caring nature towards ordinary South Africans who are equally indebted to
municipalities due to known circumstances — the debt relief on their bills around electricity?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is it, hon ... [Inaudible.]?

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, I rose because I saw that Mr
Manyi’s microphone has been on the whole time. I don't know

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, it's a mistake and you wanted to assist him? Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Let me start by answering the question. Maybe I'll give the explanation later. Debt relief is extended to ordinary South Africans. In other words, for the municipality to get the debt relief, the municipality must extend the same programme to residents. In other words, the municipality must go to each and every ... but the condition is that those who will get debt relief as individuals will have to get a smart card so that in future there's no default, both by the municipality and by the individuals. So, in that sense it is extended to ordinary South Africans.

Vote No 10 – Public Enterprises – put.


Declaration of vote

Ms W R ALEXANDER: Chairperson, do you know what happens when it gets cold in South Africa? We have load shedding. When it gets hot, load shedding. When Eskom employees are demoralised, we get load shedding. When it is recommended that we provide Eskom employees with performance bonuses to end load shedding, we still have load shedding.
Wet coal, lack of maintenance, low operating reserves, strikes, corruption, sabotage, state capture, colonialism, apartheid and white monopoly capital. These are some of the myriad excuses used to justify load shedding, but the truth of the matter is that there is only one reason we have load shedding, and that reason is the ANC. The year 2023 has had an energy action plan in place as well as a whole Minister specifically designated to deal with the electricity crisis, and yet we have had the worst year of load shedding in history with Eskom’s medium-term outlook indicating load shedding every single week for the next 52 weeks.

Load shedding is a symptom of catastrophically poor political decision making which has crippled the development of a functional, efficient and reliable energy sector. Instead of addressing the causes of our energy crisis, we are celebrating the arrival of household size generators from China while we measure progress 1 megawatt at a time. Minister, stop treating us like shiitake. South Africans are not mushrooms; you cannot continue to feed us manure and keep us in the dark.

You and other ANC leaders have repeatedly assured us that load shedding will be a thing of the past by the end of the month. Discovering that Father Christmas exists is far more likely.
In fact, the only beacon of light in this relentless darkness is the understanding that to end load shedding we must bring an end to the dark days of ANC rule. The year 2024 will usher in a new brighter future under a Democratic Alliance-led government, where we can celebrate an abundance of energy as power becomes a symbol of progress and not just a political slogan. I thank you.

Mr S N GUMEDE: Hon House Chair, in light of the high turnover rate in a senior management level, which causes instability within the Department of Public Enterprises, DPE, and places an additional burden on other employees because of the additional responsibilities assigned to them due to the shortage in staff, how can the DPE reasonably be expected to fill critical vacancies at the senior management level to address instability in challenges affecting SOEs within the reduced budget on the compensation of employees,? Is it the obligation to reduce the DPE’s high vacancy rate to be funded amid reduced budget on the compensation of employees? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon, Chair, my colleagues and hon members. The fact of the matter in respect
of our budget is that, like all other departments or most of them, we’ve had a cut in the budget of some R27 million and much of that - just over R18 million - is for compensation of employees. The remainder is goods and services to the tune of about R9,8 million.

The DA is already electioneering, so there were no questions that were asked by the speaker from the DA. Let me just say that, as I've said before, the DA member lives in a delusional world where they think that a 20% party is ever going to govern South Africa. Let me also add that at no stage did I say publicly or otherwise that load shedding would end at the end of this year. There’s a process; there is an energy action plan that is being implemented together with the private sector and there will be progress as each of the units in Kusile and Koeberg come into operation at one stage or another. Kusile has done remarkably well in that particular regard.

As far as DPE senior management is concerned, attracting the right skills within the public service, particularly the high- level skills, is a difficult proposition and one which we put on hold for now because we don’t want to fill vacancies for the sake of filling vacancies at the administrative level
because we have a total imbalance between skilled personnel and administrative personnel. So, all in all, we’ve done the best we can over the past few years ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired]

Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration – put.



Mrs H DENNER: House Chair ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Wait, wait, my dear. Hon Nolichungu ... every member that comes in, please don’t disturb us. Proceed, hon member.

Mrs H DENNER: Hon Minister, millions are being taken away from ground level service delivery departments like Education, Health, Human Settlements, Agriculture and Water and Sanitation to fund, amongst others, the public sector wage bill, which your department and government has lost control over. Despite your promises and declarations to the country, the number of public sector workers doing business with the state has increased, thus receiving income upon income.
It seems that ordinary South Africans are not getting proper service delivery while government is bending over backwards to honour exorbitant salary agreements - a monster that you yourselves created. Will your government continue on this route of taking from children, the sick, the poor, the hungry and the destitute to give to public sector millionaires, or are you finally going to curb the public sector wage bill at some point? Thank you, House Chair.

Ms S T MANELI: Hon Chair, to the hon Minister, labour relations are a critical aspect of maintaining good, just and cordial relationships between the employer and the employee. Which services were planned from the decline financial allocation as per the Appropriation Adjustments? I thank you, Chair.


Chair, good afternoon. Let me start with the first question and respond as such that each department amongst the public servants that he the hon member has referred has its own budget, priorities and executive authorities who take decisions on how to reprioritise.
The public sector wage, as we have accepted it, there has been quite a wide consultation amongst all role players and therefore what was agreed would have been what would have been possible at the time and therefore, if we are creating public sector millionaires and monsters, I hope the workers of this country are listening to that and hearing it properly, as it is pronounced. For us, we are creating the just environment where there is fairness in the delivery of public services.

To the second question ... to indicate that actually we have prioritised most of the areas that we would have taken money from which would be those areas where we can still manage to drive the programme without just changing the modus operandi. For example, on goods and services where there would have been transport and travelling and venues for training, we will use the virtual services. So, we will continue with the programmes but differently in terms of affordability and therefore we prioritise. Thank you, House Chair.

Vote No 16 – Basic Education – put.


Declaration of vote:

Mr B B NODADA: Chairperson, eight in 10 Grade 4 learners can’t read for meaning in any language, 74% of schools don’t have
libraries to mitigate their reading crisis. Teachers can’t read either. They fail exams for the subjects that they teach. Only 64% of critical reading skills at Grade 6 level. The ANC and SADTU would rather protect useless and underqualified teachers than provide quality education to millions of poor black learners to change the circumstance of their birth.

Many schools are not just ANC graveyards for learners to die in pit toilets, but to bury their futures too. A number of 3900 schools still have pit toilets. On our own day oversight visits to 64 schools in in over seven provinces, we revealed that 81% of schools we personally went to still had pit toilets. Overcrowding remains the biggest barrier to learning, 2,4 million learners of the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal were left hungry because cadres must eat while children starve.

Over the last 30 years, the ANC have turned into our modern- day oppressors, delivering education that has led generations of children to a life of unemployment and poverty without skills that allow them to participate in the economy. It seems the ANC has nightmares when they have not destroyed everything that they touch.
Fellow South Africans, it does not have to be this way. In 2024 you have the opportunity to fight the ANC and vote in a strong DA at the centre of the multi-party coalition government, which will prioritise quality education. The DA in the West Western Cape has a strong track record of delivery in government where double the number of children can read for meaning, children eat twice a day, they have skills to participate in the economy ... [Interjections.]

Ms N P SONTI: Chair ... Chairperson?


Mr B B NODADA: ... [Inaudible.] ... with overcrowding by building Schools in 65 days ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Sonti ... Take your seat, hon member, please?

Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson ...


... asiva kwanto apha kule Ndlu. Ingxolo le yenzekayo awuyiva wena?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you. Thank you my dear.

Nksz N P SONTI: Ngoba kutheni? Uthule kuba ...


... it is on that side.


USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Awa, ungasarageli phambili.


Ms N P SONTI: No, no ...


... asiva. Ewe, ewe, bayangxola andithi?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I heard you. Hon Sonti, I heard you the first time. You don’t have to insult me. Please don’t do that. What is your problem? Hon ... proceed.
Mr B B NODADA: We focus on building quality skills so that learners can participate in the economy and when they graduate, we make sure that we provide jobs to them. That is why the Western Capers has created enough jobs more than any place in the country. So, in 2024 we want to rescue South Africa from the clutches of any operation so vote for the DA. I thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I had my hand up for a very long time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Lindiwe Zulu, there is only L that appears, that is my problem. I am sorry for that. Hon Zulu, proceed.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chairperson, but unfortunately, I was raising my hand as a point of order to the previous speaker who was calling people useless. He said teachers are useless. I was raising a point of order. You can’t come here be calling teachers useless.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you very much. I will alert my Table Staff to check hands on the monitors. While members are allowed to raise hands ... don’t
shout if you had not raised your hand. If you had raised your hand, we apologise for that. Okay, FF Plus, still on Basic Education.


Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair, the long and the short of the budget cut for school infrastructure is that the money was needed to meet staff’s cost of living adjustments. My question: Could we ask schools to plant more trees because apparently, we count on them to grow their own classrooms? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon member, please, I can’t even hear these people are on the virtual platform clearly. I must be able to rule if there are points of order, and if you keep on taking like this and I can’t hear them, you will be blaming me for postponing certain rulings.


Moh M M MATUBA: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.


As the ANC we are we are very much concerned that the budget reduction has resulted in a decline in the education infrastructure grant. What is the progress of blended finance for school infrastructure to increase financing of infrastructure projects to address the backlog and new infrastructure needs?

Mr E MTHETHWA: Chairperson, the consistent failure to deliver textbooks on time and to organise transport for rural and remote schools, lack of basic learner support materials for many rural and township schools are all constant reminders of the neglect that the department under Minister Motshekga has subjected black learners to. The department has not been able to account for almost half a million learners who are getting lost to the system on a yearly basis and still refuses to account to these learners when they assess progress through their grades.

While the recently adopted Basic Education Laws Amendment, BELA, Bill makes provision for keeping learners in class, the department simply does not have the capacity to enforce that, let alone its contradiction by introducing sale of alcohol at schools. There is simply not enough budget allocation to cater for all these demands to ensure that learners are in class on
time, that learners have necessary learner support material, that learners are taught by sufficiently qualified teachers, and that learners are in class with full stomachs.

Indeed, the Deputy Minister was right to make an example of an octopus as that is what she is turning the schools into. An octopus of sale of alcohol at schools, midwifery service providers, reducing parents’ role only to ATM. We as the EFF therefore reject the report.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. We are not yet there on the rejections. The hon Minister of Basic Education? Order! Hon member. The hon Deputy Minister or the Minister of Basic Education? Do we have them there? Oh gosh! I am informed that both the Minister and the Deputy Minister for Basic Education are not on the platform, and ... Hon member, no, wait! You and I don’t know the reasons, but what I can say for now is that it is a serious concern for us. We have counsellors for the leader of government business ... Oh!
There is Mma Motshekga. Ma Motshekga?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You just came in?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, I have been on the platform, but I am in an area with very poor signal. Now I am in a better place, I can be able to respond. I am sorry about the delay.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Now you can respond. Thank you, Ma. You can respond.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I missed the question, with apologies, Chair. I just moved to the right place now. So if I could be given another chance to get the question, then I will answer. I am sorry about that, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Hon members, please pardon us. As I call now for all the members of the executive to please find space because you don’t know if your department is going to be asked a question or there is a declaration that you would want to respond to. Please, make sure that you are in a good space where, if that has happened you are able to respond. I am really pleading with you, hon members of the executive. I am going to plead with the House now. Hon members, let us just take a few minutes and go back but ... I am sorry baba, but you have to come back. Yes. We start afresh with Basic Education. I have already apologised,
please don’t make noise. Order! Order, hon Mlenzana! Hon

members, please let them hear ...


... umma uSonti uzangikhaliphela godu.


Declaration of vote:
Mr B B NODADA: Chairperson, as I was saying, eight in 10 Grade

4 learners can’t read for meaning in any language, 74% of schools don’t have libraries to mitigate their reading crisis. Teachers can’t read either. They fail exams for the subjects that they teach. Only 64% of critical reading skills at Grade
6 level. The ANC and SADTU would rather protect underqualified teachers than provide quality education to millions of poor black learners to change the circumstance of their birth.

Many schools are not just ANC graveyards for learners to die in pit toilets, but to bury their futures too. A number of 3900 schools still have pit toilets. On our own day oversight visits to 64 schools in over seven provinces, we revealed that 81% of schools we personally went to still had pit toilets, yet this budget is trying to cut the Infrastructure Grant to schools. Overcrowding remains the biggest barrier to learning, 2,4 million learners of the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal
were left hungry because cadres must eat while children starve.

Over the last 30 years, the ANC have turned into our modern- day oppressors, delivering education that has led generations of children to a life of unemployment and poverty without skills that allow them to participate in the economy. It seems the ANC has nightmares when they have not destroyed everything that they touch.

Fellow South Africans, it does not have to be this way. In 2024 you have an opportunity to fire the ANC and vote in a strong DA at the centre of a multi-party coalition government, which will prioritise quality education. The DA in the West Western Cape has a strong track record of delivery in government where double the number of children can read for meaning, and quality teaching is monitored.

We focus on teaching learners skills needed for the economy, we build schools in 65 days to deal with overcrowding, learners get two meals a day and when learners graduate, the Western Cape creates more jobs than anywhere else in the country so that young people can have a dignity of a job.
Therefore, in 2024 let’s fire the ANC oppression and vote for

the DA. I thank you, Chair.


Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair, my question to the Minister of Basic Education is: The long and the short of the budget cut for school infrastructure is that the money was needed to meet staff’s cost of living adjustments. My question is could we ask schools to plant more trees because apparently, we count on them to grow their own classrooms? I thank you.


Mr E M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, the consistent failure to deliver textbooks on time and to organise transport for rural and remote schools, lack of basic learner support materials for many rural and township schools are all constant reminders of the neglect that the department under Minister Motshekga has subjected black learners to. The department has not been able to account for almost half a million learners who are getting lost to the system on a yearly basis and still refuses to account these learners when they assess progress through the grades.
While the recently adopted Basic Education Laws Amendment, BELA, Bill provides for keeping learners in class, the department simply does not have the capacity to enforce this. There is simply not enough budget allocation to cater for all these demands to ensure that learners are in class on time, that learners have necessary learner support material, that learners are taught by sufficiently qualified teachers, and that learners are in class with full stomachs. Whilst we are on that, how would this budget reductions not impact on such? Thanks, Chair.


Vho M M MATUBA: Mulangadzulo, ri?e sa ?ihoro ?a vhathu ri pfa ri tshi vhilaela nga maan?a nga u khathiwa ha heyi bajete.
Khayo ri ri Vho Minisi?a ...


 ... we are very much concerned that the budget reduction has resulted in a decline in the education infrastructure grant.


Mbudziso yanga ndi ya u ri …

... what is the progress of blended finance for school infrastructure to increase financing of infrastructure projects to address the backlog and new infrastructure needs?


Ndi khou livhuwa.


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, let me sincerely apologise for the inconvenience, it was not out of disrespect. I am very sorry and thank you for accepting our apology.

Let me quickly go into budget cuts and say that it is a major concern for us also as a sector. We are working with Treasury to try and mitigate about those budget cuts so that they don’t harm this sector. Treasury has been extremely co-operative to assist us in making sure that the budgets don’t eat on the main activities of the programme. I thought I should raise that we are equally concerned, but we are also working as a sector to make sure that we can find ways to mitigate against the budget.

If I have time, let me quickly respond to the issue about reading for meaning. I think I have explained it so many times
what reading for meaning is. Reading for meaning doesn’t mean combining words and all the things that the member is saying. In our assessment ... [Inaudible.] ... we found out that ... and it has been a very helpful exercise for us because we are competing with your Finland and other countries who have ... by the time their children are at age 10 they have been in institutions in creches and early childhood development, ECD, programmes from the month nine. So, by the time our kids are expected to contest with them at the age of 10 they have only been in school for three years whereas the others have already been in school for 10 years. That is why as this government we are ramping as much as we can to make sure that we strengthen and solidify our ECD programme.

Also, the competition about the Western Cape, I think the member has not read the report. The contest is also ... I think the difference is around language ... [Inaudible.] ... Kids who have been taught in their mother tongue because they are not even the best performing system, I mean they are struggling with matric and even in Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, PIRLS, they were not the top system. In PIRLS it was language and the languages that excelled were English, Afrikaans, isiZulu, isiXhosa and Sotho. Why do they do that? Firstly, Afrikaans ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, Minister. Hon Minister, thank you. Your time is up. We have only two minutes for you to respond.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Oh! I am sorry. Thank you, Chair, for understanding and for allowing us to come back. Thanks also for comments from members. Thank you vey much, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon members, please, there’s still noise. I don’t know whether you are bored, or you don’t want to listen to this declarations and questions. Please, hon Plaatjies? Whose mics are open there?
Hon Mey, please mute. Hon Mey, asseblief [please]. Is it the only one? Okay. Is the hand still there? Okay, we proceed to Vote No 17 – Higher Education and Training.

Vote No 17 – Higher Education and Training – put.


Ms E R J SPIES: While we are here today, please spare a thought for the people at Frere Hospital and Livingston Hospital who today will not have specialist medical professionals taking care of them because Walter Sisulu
University refused to accredit them. That is where your priority lies, the ANC.

While we are talking here about the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, while the Minister of Finance is sitting here, has still today from 2021 not given us the audit financial statements and I would like the Minister of Finance to respond on that. We are talking of a R2,9 billion cut in the department and 2 billion of those are for NSFAS - 87 712 students will not be funded in 2024. These are your South African Social Security Agency, Sassa, students that you are failing.

We have accommodation credit providers who today handed a letter of demand to the NSFAS CEO because they have not been paid for their accommodation since February this year. You know the worst thing about this, Minister, is the fact that this year we had students who went hungry. We had students that had to sleep outside and were left destitute. We had female students that this year had to sell their bodies to sugar daddies just to get some form of accommodation.

So, I ask you again, Minister, where are we going to get the R2 billion shortfall for next year, and how are we going to
address the R2,2 billion that the National Treasury has instructed TVET colleges to withhold because of the shortfall? Keep in mind that 87 712 students will not be funded in 2024. Think about those students while you are standing there – eligible that you are qualifying, and you will de defunded or called again through some nonsensical eligibility criteria.

Dr W J BOSHOFF: House Chair, my question to the Minister of Higher Educations is that the adjusted budget for Higher Education states as if it is a great relief that NSFAS could fund less TVET students than provided for because many of them did not meet academic requirements. Therefore, R2 billion could be deducted from its budget. My question is: If that is regarded as a windfall, how do we bridge the skills gap which was created in the first place by having too few TVET students? I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Boshoff, I am not sure if it your earphones, your voice does not come out clearly, but I hope the Minister is listening or the Deputy. Your earphones are giving us something else.

Dr W J BOSHOFF: Does it sound better without it, Madam Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It’s fine, but it is hard to hear you clearly, honestly speaking. If you can just try something and remove the earphone.

Ms N T MKHATSHWA: Hon House Chairperson, we are aware that the Department of Higher Education and Training has been having ongoing meetings in preparation for the academic year 2024 and one is really hoping to hear that some of the mitigation strategies in relation to the over R2 billion decline for university education have been ... What mitigation strategies have been discussed within the department leading up to their preparations for the 2024 academic year? Thank you, hon House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those are all for Higher Education and Training. I am told that the Minister is not on the platform, but the Deputy Minister is. Deputy Minister?

INNOVATION: House Chairperson, with your permission, due to a poor network, can I please have my video staying off? Thank you so much. Firstly, I think it’s important that we clarify that the cut that she is referring to are basically cuts that
are for the current financial year. We are aware that Treasury has asked us to do some adjustments for the next academic year 2024 and we will ensure that we’re working quite closely with universities and TVET colleges to make sure that whatever cuts that are imposed by Treasury do not firstly affect the unreasonable rise in tuition fees. Secondly, they do not affect the number of enrolments of students in the next academic year. Thirdly, that the cut in terms of TVET students has no consequence in terms of the current academic year, and that we still remain focused in ensuring that we increase the number of TVET college students registered over time so that we’re able to get closer to our National Development Plan, NDP, targets.

I think it’s important that we, in the process, do not spread propaganda that suggests that 85 000 students, as suggested by the hon member, will be affected by this. It is basically stocking the fire for electoral purposes and has got nothing to do with the reality as reflected by the budget. Yes, the budgets will affect us as indicated by all the three members who asked their questions, but we believe that through our preparations, engagements with stakeholders, we are on course to make sure that we have a peaceful academic here in 2024 ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you so much, House Chair.
Vote No 18 – Health – put.


Ms M O CLARKE: Chairperson, this budget reveals a government at odds with its own objectives. The Minister of Finance expressed the importance of public private partnerships, yet the Department of Health persists with the National Health Insurance, NHI, which will decimate both the public and the private health sectors, thereby destroying any targeted vision of enhanced public partnerships.

Minister, how many of the public participation submissions and recommendations were taken into account in the National Assembly? How many in the NCOP? And what was the content of this mysterious letter that was allowed to derail parliamentary process? What is the total of the budget to realise the NHI? Minister of Finance is here, please tell us, can we afford the NHI or is this merely a tool for electioneering?

The ANC-led government’s focus on cadre deployment has led to wasteful expenditure, mismanagement of funds, fraud and corruption, casting a dark cloud over the efficient functioning of the health system. All provinces, except for the Western Cape, has performed dismally. Our call for
accountability has fallen on deaf ears. While many families battle to put food on their tables, the ANC-led government wants to hike taxes to fund the NHI and eliminate the relief from medical tax credits.

South Africa is in the midst of a severe job crisis, compounded by a whole system that does not align with the ideals in the NHI. The implications of overspending on an unfunded wage agreement are dire, particularly for hospital frontline services. Patients are paying the ultimate price as patient care takes a backseat to the ANC’s political rhetoric.

Rather institute a regulated framework to ensure cost containment and embrace the private sector’s assistance in training doctors and nurses to build a robust and responsive healthcare system. In 2024, the DA will rescue South Africa and quality universal Healthcare will be provided to every citizen in this country. We do not support this budget.

Ms M S LETLAPE: House Chair, to the Minister, the MECs for Health and Finance in Gauteng have failed to intervene in a waste management tender worth millions that was awarded irregularly despite the tender period that had lapsed. Now, what steps has your department taken to ensure that the
culprits are held to account and that the tender is reversed? And how can the public have confidence that these constant occurrences will ever end? Thank you.

Ms A GELA: House Chairperson, the capitalists are the ones that don’t want the NHI. I think we are very clear and also people are ready. Today we will be celebrating the achievement because the NCOP is going to pass the NHI which we are looking forward to implement. They will complain because I know that they are always complaining.

Coming to the question, what are the implications of the anticipated budget adjustments on the communicable and non- communicable diseases programmes for 2023-28 National Strategic Plan for HIV, TB and STIs, with particular reference to South Africa’s prospects to achieve the 95-95-95 target by 2025, as outlined in the Global Aids Strategy? The NHS is going to assist hon Wilson because his husband was rejected in the private sector. So, we are trying to accommodate everybody. Forward with NHI forward!


USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Asingakhulumi ngabantu abangekho lapha.

Please, let us not do that. Let us be sensitive, especially when we talk about illnesses. Please, hon members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, good afternoon to hon members. As hon Gela has just said, our Minister is not able to join us because he is on a very historic debate in the NCOP finalising the NHI which in this House we will be at it in June. This year 203 votes supported the NHI. To hon Clarke, yes, I would not be able to give you the background because at the time you joined the portfolio committee late, we had finished with the public hearings on the National Assembly with regards to that. The NHI is going to actually be implemented because it is a social solidarity principle – it is universally accepted even by the World Health Organisation, WHO, that all countries must actually go towards this because even all our people who are disadvantaged, including the people who work in your space, in my space, your domestic workers must benefit just as good as yourself.

Health is a public good and therefore this process has gone that way. We will be implementing, as to where we are going to get funding starts by looking into what is our benefits as hon members in terms of the levies that we do get to subsidise our
medical aids. It starts there so that it can benefit everybody else. Over and above that, we will be engaged with the Treasury to get that. But the principle of getting this is in place, it is the issue of getting it sorted out in terms of national funding and that will be a matter that is going to discussed.

We have really reduced, hon Gela, we have had a reduction of about a billion from our R23 billion allocated for HIV, STI and TB grant. Top sliced 1 billion from us. We were hopeful that this 95-95-95 ... as a country we are sitting at 95-78-
92. We might have to accelerate in terms of TB recovery and also in terms of moving some of about 1,8 million South Africans that we know are out there and are HIV positive but are not in the system as yet ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Your time is up, Deputy Minister. Thank you. We are now on Vote 19 – Social Development. The DA?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: On a point of order, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh! Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The hon member also asked a question directly to me ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You don’t have to
respond because the relevant department was here ...


... uyamrhalela?


Sorry, Minister. Unfortunately, we don’t have time on our side. I am not going to allow it. Okay, let’s proceed. Order, hon members, please. Mama Masango you may proceed.

Vote No 19 — Social Development


Nk B S MASANGO: Angibonge kakhulu Sihlalo ohloniphekile, kuyasikhathaza ukuthi lapho umphakathi waseNingizimu Afrika udinga uMnyango wozokuThuthukiswa koMphakathi okwaziyo ukusabela uma kunesidingo esisemqoka kubantu bakithi ikakhulukazi labo abadla imbuya ngothi. Lo Mnyango uhluleka ngisho ukubakhokhela izibonelelo zabo. Kunemibiko eveza isimo esinyantisayo sokwanda kwesibalo sezingane ezingakhuli
ngendlela okufanele zikhule ngayo. Ezinye ziyalahlwa ezinye zize ziphangalale ngenxa yendlala. Imizabo yeDA yokwethula imibono yokulwa namanani okudla iyaqhubeka nokushaywa indiva uhulumeni we-ANC.

UMnyango kaNgqongqoshe uZulu ulibele ukubhidliza isikhungo okuyisona kuphela abahlukunyezwayo bebesizakala khona. Uvule isiteshi sikamabhonakude esikhethekile, kuvalwa ngobuningi amahhovisi wezoKuthuthukiswa KoMphakathi esifundazweni saseMpuma Koloni. Osonhlalakahle abadingeka kakhulu bahleli emakhaya lapho ukuhlukunyezwa nezidakamizwa kwanda unyaka nonyaka. Yikuphi lapho abantu bakithi abantulayo, nezingane nabadala kanye nabakhubazekile okufanele bathole khona usizo abaludingayo? Ama-NPO kufanele bawenze kanjani umsebenzi wabo owesekela wona lo Mnyango uma uxhaso lukahulumeni lukhokhwa ngonyawo lonwabu, luncishishwa noma luze lumiswe? Izimpendula zale mibuzo Mageba esemqoka kangaka zitholakala kwinqubomgomo ye-DA yokuthuthukiswa komphakathi esesiyisebenzisa la eNtshonakoloni nezoqala ukusebenza kuhulumeni kaZwelonke ngonyaka ozayo uma sithatha izintambo zokutakula uMzansi Afrika. Ngiyabonga.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Amazwi enu ngiwezwa ngilapha, nibhekene niyakhuluma nangezandla.

Ms L L VAN DE MERWE: House Chairperson, earlier this year the IFP cautioned that we will support Department of Social Development, DSD, budget but we cannot approve an election budget for the ANC. This came after the ANC president boasted during a by-election earlier this year that one of the greatest achievements of the ANC-led government has been the extension of the welfare state whereby almost half of South African’s now rely on some of the grant alone for their survival.

Now an election poster has again surfaced which uses an image of the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, card asking people to vote for the ANC. It is simply unforgivable that the plight of the poor and the most vulnerable are being politicised.

We want to caution our government that they will not get away with abusing taxpayers’ money to use this budget for electioneering purposes.
Moreover], the IFP remains concern with regards to the plights of social workers, nonprofit organisations, NPOs, and the fact that sone of Sassa’s telephone lines ever work.

Finally, as a portfolio committee we have often raised our concerns with regard to DSD’s gender-based violence call centre. We have asked whether its fully functional and effective considering the every rising levels of gender-based violence. Now reports have surfaced that the centre has collapsed because the Minister irregularly appointed a tender to an associate at the cost of R45 million a month. Al these issues are extremely worrying developments and it’s clear that the poor, the vulnerable and victims of violence and the abused deserve better. I thank you.

Ms N K BILANKULU: Mutshamaxitulu, vanhu va ka hina va Afrika- Dzonga, swivulavulo swo tala mi nga swi yingiseli. Vanhu sweswi va gaya tivhoti. Va ya vulavula na leswi swo ka swi nga fanelangiki.


Minister, the major decline is in the social relief of distress programme at R1,7 billion. Which criterion of
applicants have been discarded for the social relieve of distress, and does the consideration factor in the precarious nature of income or remittance of the unemployment? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, my sincere apology I am out in the communities dealing with issues of gender-based violence. I will switch off my video. First and foremost, I want to put it on record that the people who are standing up here and saying things that they themselves know are not true. They are the ones who are politicking, they are the ones who are campaigning for elections. The ANC which I belong to and is a party of the people, does not need to be reminded by people who are politicking here.

Hon Members, these members who were speaking sit in the portfolio committee where we consistently give our reports, where we account to the portfolio committee. The issues that hon Masango is raising is very unfortunate that she is talking about the one area somewhere in the Western Cape where the majority of our people in the Western Cape are suffering day in and day out. This government and this Department of Social Development does everything to respond to the felt needs of the people. We don’t talk hearsay, we don’t cover one province, but we cover all nine provinces. As it is I am in
the Free State where the President, President Cyril Ramaphosa will be tomorrow addressing thousands of our people who will be coming here to listen to him.

The issue of the amount that is being said we spent per month, I am sure if people who are knowing how it works, how do you pay R43 million to anybody per month. It means the department would have collapsed by now. And it is nonsensical also for members to come here and ... [Time expired.] ... and claim that I nominated anybody. The department nominates. So, they must just shut up. [Time expired.]

Vote No 25 — Justice and Constitutional Development

Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Hon Chairperson, During the EFF’s oversight visit to the Randburg Magistrates' Court we witnessed a shocking poor filing system. taking into consideration that the budget will be cut especially with court operations and there are a number of backlogs running into thousands. What is the intervention that the department will do to ensure that the department is properly resourced to eliminate the backlog and to have the e-filing system? Thank you.
Mr X NQOLA: House Chair, hon Minister, at the beginning of 2023, government committed to engage [Interjections.] on radical policy reforms to ensure whistle-blower protection. The question is, what progress have been made to that effect and what are the realistic pragmatic and programmes to ensure that whistle-blowers are protected? Thank you very much.


House Chair, good afternoon, everybody. Ms Mkhwbane has questions. She is asking about raising the issue of the problem of filing of papers at the Randburg Magistrates' Court which has been, as far as I understand been addressed. She then goes on to speak about courts backlogs and e-filing. On the issue of court backlogs that is something that is the responsibility of both the department and the judiciary but we sit regularly with the chief magistrates on a quarterly basis in the regional courts residence to discuss where the blockages are as far as backlogs. And e verry effort is made to attend to the matter.

On e-filing obviously it is going to in the long-term making things cheaper if we can reduce as much as to virtual courts and virtual filing has been a pilot run in the High Court.
That is very much on the agenda. The budget cuts obviously will have an impact on this programme of modernisation.

On hon Nqola’s question, the department published a draft paper on whistle-blowers and protected disclosures. It was published, I think in June, and there were a number of comments received. The department is now going through those comments and coming up with a draft Bill which will then be published itself for further comments. So, work is ongoing on that issue and we expect to see results soon. Thank you, House Chairperson

Vote No 28 — Police
Mr A G WHITFIELD: House Chairperson, allow me to begin by conveying my heartfelt condolence and those of the DA to the family of the DA Chief Whip in the uMgeni Municipality, Councilor Ndlovu, who was murdered tragedy yesterday. May his soul rest in peace and may the SA Police Service, SAPS, leave no stone unturned in order to bring his killer to book.

The dysfunction and consequent internal inefficiencies within the SAPS are complex cocktail of cadre deployment, a declining professional standards, political interference and weak oversight. None of these challenges can be repaired by
troughing R3 billion at compensation of employees in this adjustment budget while ignoring the deep systemic overhaul that is required to turn the SAPS into a modern, professional and effective police service.

The adjustment’s budget deals a devastating blow to the construction and upgrading of police station with more than half a billion rand being strips from this programme to defray legal costs while more than R160 million has been taken away from machinery and equipment which will now further compromise service delivery.

The biggest allocation in the budget is to visible policing for compensation of employees but without new police stations where will these new recruits be deployed.

The second allocation in the budget is to protection and security services. No surprise there the VIP protection getting a boost of an additiona; R80 million allocated to keep politicians save. To put this government’s priorities into perspective crime and intelligence has received half personnel with the 1% increase, while detective services receives and increase of just 1,4%. In spite of its more than R100 billion budget in the previous financial year, SAPS only achieved 65%
of its targets. This tells you that SAPS doesn’t have a budget problem, ibut t has a management and performance problem which requires a comprehensive overhaul of its management and entirely reconfigured budget and a new Minister who would not spend half a million rand of taxpayers’ money to send his personal assistance, PA, to the Rugby World Cup. Thank you.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, the question to the Minister, with an allocation of almost R18 million to the VIP protection, what is the rationale thereof whilst there are shortages in especially criminal intelligence and also detection services where that money could have gone to fill those shortages and address those shortages? What is the rationality? I thank you.

Ms M A MOLEKWA: House Chair, it is reported in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement,MTBPS, on Police that there lower than targeted detection, rate for contact crime and crime against women and children was mainly due to capacity constraints in the detective service resulting in the high number of case dockets per detective. How will the department improve and ensure that the targets are met? I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the question to the Minister of Police is, Minister, if you saw the latest statement by Lieutenants-General Mkhwanazi of KwaZulu-Natal who said elite members, special force members with all the skills and experience are leaving the force in droves. Is there anything sinister about this, or is it that they are going for better prospects? The question is, what are you going to do to retain your police officers by ensuring that you give them better benefits and not the R23 danger allowance? It is a disgrace.
Give them better housing, protect them so that they can provide a share, so that they are promoted timeously, make sure they have housing which is closer to where they work. Some of them are travelling 130 kilometres to their homes. Tell us what is it that you are going to do to make life for a police officer better so that we can retain them, and they can be motivated and work harder. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I will start by the last question, in droves. I am not an English speaker, but I think in drove means many learning people. The question raised by the provincial commissioner is, he spoke about eight people from the special task force that have left – they are eight. By the way, there are other issues about the special task force. You don’t stay there long, but you stay there while you
are young and fit. There will be a movement on that one. On droves, exactly it could not be a term at this present moment. But that’s a group of people. Anyway, they live closer to where they work. I fully agree with him that the accommodation issues of the police, generally, will have to be improved. He has raised that before, and we are looking at that.

Indeed, there has been a problem with detectives. That’s why we are training bigger number from the new recruits that have passed last year and are passing this year and will pass next year. We are recruiting more numbers to be trained as detectives. But also, we are inviting those that have left the system.

The last one for hon Whitfield, for the changing of the Minister he must wait for the elections. It has no business to come here and hire and fire the Ministers on the platform. He knows what is happening and he must wait for the time. Thanks.

Vote No 29: Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development - put.

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: House Chairperson, given that South Africa is leading in three socioeconomic challenges, which is the
inequality, poverty and unemployment. What will be the impact of these reduction for the poor and unemployed? Will South Africa not be driven into food aid category, where we become a beneficiary of social responsibility program of imperialists? Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK-MAM: Hon Minister, could you tell us what the latest development in terms is of transferring ownership right type and interest of the land of those people living on the Ingonyama Trust land to the people in themselves. Given the fact that the High Court found Ingonyama Trust land unconstitutional. And of course, let us not forget that former President Kgalema Motlanthe, in terms of his Commission report, also indicated that it is unlawful, and the land must belong to the people and in the Ingonyama Trust land. Thank.


Mr Z MLENZANA: House Chair, South Africa faces a serious challenge ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Bab’uDlamini mana kancane. Kani kufanele ngenzeni kubab’uMlenzanat? [ Mr Dlamini, wait a moment. What must I do to Mr Mlenzana? No, no and you, hon ... [Inaudible.] ... please. Continue sir.
Mr Z MLENZANA: Thanks very much, South Africa faces a serious challenge of poverty to the majority of our people. An investment in food security is regarded as a solution, to addressing such through the development of agricultural sector, with government and the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development seeking to address the matter of food security challenges through the agricultural sector. How can this be achieved through the reduction of funding by National Treasury of 402,684?

DEVELOPMENT: House Chair, hon members, in the House and thank you very much for those hon members who raised the questions. If I were to answer both questions from the EFF and the ANC, which relates to the impact of the reduction on food security. One can actually indicate that, while these reductions are not advisable. We do appreciate the general situation that our fiscals have.

And we are looking at how we can make interventions with the resources that are available between us and the provinces to make sure that our food security programs are not negatively impacted upon.
Secondly, one of the issues that we’re looking at is ramping up household food security to make sure that we can cushion particularly those people who are far away from the cities. Where the shocks on logistics sometimes do have an impact on the movement of goods.

And therefore, if we strengthen our food security at household level. It ensures that communities and households can be able to feed themselves or complement some of the food items by producing their own food.

Thirdly, if one were to answer the question on Ingonyama Trust, it’s important for me to make the correction. The case between Council of the Advancement of South African Constitution, CASAC and Ingonyama Trust Board, it’s still a matter that is in court, where the board had taken the matter to the Supreme Court. But it’s important to clarify that the judgment did not strap off Ingonyama Trust Act. However, it struck off the use of leases by the Ingonyama Trust, which, according to the court was not supposed to have been done. And that is what we’re working on rectifying. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Vote No 32: Forestry, Fisheries, and the Environment – put.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Minister of Agriculture, for enlightening some members in this House, who is now in Dubai, hon Minister Finance ... [Interjection.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, point of order: I like you know, if hon Singh would take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): But really ... yes please, hon Singh. Are you ready?

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Really House Chair, is that a joke?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Really hon ...

Mr N SINGH: ... I’ve got two minutes left for questioning.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... please proceed. No

please let’s respect this session, ai please guys. Proceed ...


Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Minister, I’m starting again House Chair. Hon Minister of Environment, I hope you are doing justice for us in Dubai at the very, very important conference. But I’m glad the hon Minister of Finance is here.
Because, Minister, your budget has been cut by 235 million. And yet your department must ensure climate change mitigation.

How are you going to do that when your budget is cut to that extent and when where you’re signing agreements there in Dubai? Thank you.


Chair, greetings to all the hon members from Dubai. Hon Singh, I think that none of us want our budgets to be cut, and each one of us believes that our portfolio is the most important to our country. And indeed, there is no more serious issue in my view than problems of climate change.

However, hon Singh, I’m sure you will agree that as departments and as Ministers we have a collective responsibility to ensure the financial stability of our country.

And so, when we were requested to review our budget. We worked very carefully in all of our branches to identify areas where we thought we may understand and areas where we could consolidate interventions so that we could make a collective contribution to ensuring budget stability in the country.
We believe that some of the sacrifices that we will have to make in the short term will assist us in the longer term and we are committed to doing everything we can to achieve the objectives that we can achieve both to build climate resilience and to ensure biodiversity protection and other areas of our portfolio.

And it is our sincere belief that we can do this within the existing fiscal envelope. And we look forward to a situation where the finances of our country will allow us to do even more. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I’m informed that at the moment the Minister for Vote 34 is presenting at the Conference of the Parties, COP, 28 and the Deputy is also held somewhere. So, I’m just going to pass that one. We will appreciate if it is a question, send it as a written form. Hon Manyi?

Mr M MANYI: House Chair, actually the question I have could been shared between the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Finance. Can I ask that part?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me allow you.
Mr M MANYI: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, noting that all these foreign loans in the energy sector, in particular, there are all kinds of conditions that are there. The issue is to what extent will these conditions undermine the developmental agenda of the state? For instance, we will not be forced to close coal plants and all these funny things just to make sure that the imperialists get their way. We are very worried about these conditions of these loans. Thank you.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: House Chair, my understanding is that you allowed hon Manyi because he is asking the Minister of Finance at the moment?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, you are okay.


Mr M G MAHLAULE: Those that will have questions to the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy should hold that. Am I correct?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, you can do it in writing. Thank you for that. Hon Minister now you may respond to hon Manyi.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I suspect hon Manyi refers to loan, which we call early pay off penalties, EPOs. Those are what are called policy support. In other words, what we say to people is that; I am involved in this kind of policy environment. Is this the environment you can fund for loan purposes. And those are not conditions, they are policy related loans. In short, they are called EPOs.

The policy is yours and you are supported, the loan is given to you to support the policy trajectory. That’s the point I want to make.

Will we deal away with ... [Inaudible.] ... coal plants? It is the matter of debate. Let me tell you the problem, you were accusing me right now, of not wanting to support Eskom to develop new generation, whose effect was precisely to undermine the coal mine.

Let me just tell you ... [Inaudible.] ... part of the loans was intended to support Eskom to do the Komati arrangement, which we must which we must have read is not, to decommission certain plants.
From government perspective we’ve said for now, it’s not appropriate to decommission coal plants because we don’t have power to the grid. And as a result, decommissioning of those plants have been postponed. And no money is flowing to Eskom to fund those decommissions and put renewables.

So, I thought you must be clear about conditionality where government whose main objective is clear, take loans on our own terms ... [Inaudible.] ... the answer. Thank you.

Vote No 39 – Trade, Industry and Competition – put.


Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chairperson, the ACDP notes that the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition budget decreased from R11,8 billion in the 2021-22 financial year to
R10,9 billion in the 2022-23 financial year. The initial budget appropriated for the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition of some R10,9 billion was further revised downward to some R10,7 billion resulting in a financial hiccup of over R200 million or some R1,1 billion over the last two financial years.

Now the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition mission is to promote structural transformation towards a dynamic
industrial and global competitive economy to provide a predictable competitive, equitable and socially responsible environment conducive to investment, trade and enterprise development amongst others.

Now these are noble goals and they have been undermined not by exogenous factors but rather indigenous. There can be no meaningful structural transformation neither a responsible environment conducive to investment, trade and enterprise development where there is no secure energy supply and where Transnet hinders export and import goods from leaving or entering our country and were race-based policy cried out foreign and direct investment as well as domestic investment.

Now Minister, with the R200 million hiccup or R1,1 billion downsizing of the last two financial years and the indigenous own goals scored against our economy, what structural transformation or policy change is planned? And do you agree with the ACDP’s recommendation that an index be established to monitor beneficiation in South Africa? Thank you.

Mr M D MONAKEDI: Chairperson, there has been a use line reduction of R292 million to the department’s based line. How does the department intend to restructure its programmes
without negatively impacting on the critical programmes that drive industrialisation and support Special Economic Zones and Industrial Parks? Thank you.


the question that were put by both the ACDP and the ANC. I am pleased to see both parties made a point about the importance of an active trade industrial and competition function in expanding growth in our economy and enabling more jobs for South Africans.

The challenges that we have had at the fiscal level that require the changes throughout budget neither to be responded to. So, what we have is, we tried to do more with the resources that we have. The first thing is, we have looked at consolidating with inside the department. We cut the number of programmes from 10 to nine not by cutting servicers but by cutting ahead to consolidate.

They improve the efficiency of what we are doing by finding new partnerships with the private sector. For example, in the competition areas, we have a lot more money that we now mobilising emergency and acquisitions that can help to do what we are seeking to do.
A short indicate then as part of what we are looking at for the future is bolding a much stronger relationship between our work and the work of other government departments. We can use the range of tools. I like the suggestion that the hon Thring raises of the index on beneficiation and in fact there is key mobile fast now with the critical mineral resource based that South Africa has to be able to deploy that to utilise that in our own path to development to electric vehicles.

I know that there are some challenges that we will need to address in the relationship between national, provincial and local government to unblock Industrial Parks and Special Economic Zones. We may need to slow down a little bit our programme of new SEZ that we want to support the consolidation and in fact, the strengthening for economic zones.

So, we are going to be doing more with the resources we have now to be able to build our economy. Thank you very much.

agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 40 – Transport – put.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Minister, with regard to decrease of R1,2 billion in the medium term budget and devastating state
of our roads with at least 2 000 people dying on the network. The lack of alternative transport for goods and services via railway such as the 30 kilometres of trucks parked alongside of the road on the N2 Empangeni and N11 in Newcastle waiting to load coal. I would like to know what measures has the department put in place to meet these services delivery nonnegotiable considering budget decrease? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: There are quite a number of issues raised in the question there. The first one will be on road safety, which of course is the programme that we are embarking on 365 days of the year, and of course, we heighten our work during seasons where we have more traffic on our roads like during the festive season, during the Easter, weekend and all that. But also, Chairperson, on the issue of road traffic. We are putting measures in place, for instance, we have the freight logistic roadmap which we are taking to Cabinet, which aims to implement the National Rail Policy, which calls for the separation of freight infrastructure from the operators.
We believe that when this is implemented it’s also going to place the private sector which also taking the framework to Cabinet, which is the private sector but participation
framework wherein we are going to have in the rail sector an equivalent of the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, Sanral.

We will also be looking at and I think the Minister of Public Enterprises will agree to this one that are we putting measures in our courts to ensure that they work including the Port of Richards Bay which was not meant for trucks but was meant for rail services. We are ensuring that we bring back that rail service so that we can then have the port functioning effectively and efficiently.

So, yes indeed, we are putting measures. We also are adding lanes, for instance, on the N3 so that we have traffic moving much faster and we therefore have quite a number of projects that are being put in place to ensure that more traffic moves with speed.

So, there are quite a number of measures that we are putting in place in order to ensure that a traffic moves and also to ensure that trucks on the road ... Thank you very much.

Division demanded.

Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 41 – Water and Sanitation – put.


Mr N SINGH: The most important thing in life is water. Hon Minister, I am going to ask you a question related to water but from the tourism angel. Now tourists are going to be flooding the beaches of Durban, Cape Town and other areas where there are beaches. But it has been reported that in a number of the beaches. But it has been reported that a number of the beach is also in the Cape Town area and in Durban raw sewages flowing openly into the beaches. Now your department has ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! Order, members.


Mr N SINGH: Your department has a responsibility of water and sanitation to assist municipalizes to overcome the difficulties of provide proper infrastructure. Is there anything that your department is going doing to do to ensure that like umkumashwe residents are complaining of raw sewage
in the sea, Durban, Western Cape that something is going to be done by the Department of Water and Sanitation? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Hon House Chair, number one, with regard to the beaches in the Western Cape under the jurisdiction of the City of Cape Town, the relevant department had to take on this question is the Environmental Affairs. It relates to the release of raw sewage that was been proposed by that municipality, which is being handled by them and the Department of Environmental Affairs. But elsewhere in the Western Cape, especially in the Drakenstein, we have intervened. There has been a turnaround and that municipality has even won an award. In a nutshell, it was handling sanitation and we commend that.

With regard to eThekwini, we have intervened in eThekwini to support them and we have via uMgeni uThukela Water Board taken over 10 of the sewage plants that represent 90% of sewage processing in the city. That has been refurbished. Those plants are being refurbish as we speak and they are being upgraded so that we no longer have a sewage of such incidents and processes the hon member has been referring to. That’s what we are doing at the moment.
Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Schedule agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 1- The Presidency

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting)

Agreed to.


Vote No 2 – Parliament

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting)

Agreed to.


Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance
Division demanded.


The House divided.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, as the bells are ringing, just inform your members, after these five minutes I’m going to five seconds 15 seconds. Check that your members are back. Note yet, not yet. Hon Manyi, this is a sacred area. Done. Thank you very much. Let us not fight, nobody will be coming in either into the House or on the virtual platform. That will happen like that because the only time we vote is when there is nothing else on the other side.

Hon members, the Speaker has determined that in accordance with the rules, a manual voting procedure will be used for this division. Hon members, party Whips will then be given an opportunity to confirm the number of the members present and indicate if they vote for or against a question. A member who wishes to abstain or vote against the party vote may do so by informing the Chair. We have conformed that there is a requisite quorum, and we will now proceed.

Question put.


AYES – 218: (ANC – 202; IFP – 11; Good – 2; NFP – 1; PAC –1;

Al Jama-ah –1).


NOES – 112: (DA - 73; EFF - 27; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4; Cope –



Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 4: Government Communications and Information System

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 5: Home Affairs


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Agreed to.


Vote No 6: International Relations and Cooperation

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 7: National School of Government

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

VOTE No 8: National Treasury


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

Vote No 9: Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation
(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 10 - Public Enterprises


Division demanded.

The House divided.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I think we all know the drill. We know the rules for this type of activity that we are doing now. I’m not going back there. All I have to do is ensure that the Whips are ready, and they give me what they have.

If you are not sure about your members on the platform, the Table Staff are there to assist you. Are you ready?



AYES – 208: (ANC – 203; Good – 2; Cope – 1; NFP – 1; Al Jama-
NOES – 125: (DA - 73; EFF - 29; IFP – 11; FF Plus - 7; ACDP –

4; PAC –1).


Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 11: Public Service and Administration

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

Vote No 12: Public Service Commission


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 13: Public Works and Infrastructure
(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 14: Statistics South Africa


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

Vote No 15: Traditional Affairs

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 16: Basic Education


Division demanded.

The House divided.


AYES – 219: (ANC – 203; IFP – 10; Good – 2; Cope -1; NFP -1

PAC –1; Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 110: (DA - 71; EFF -28; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 17: Higher Education and Training


Division demanded.


The House divided.




AYES – 217: (ANC – 201; IFP – 10; Good – 2; Cope -1; NFP -1
PAC –1; Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 111: (DA - 72; EFF -28; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4).
Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 18: Health


Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 217: (ANC – 201; IFP – 10; Good – 2; Cope – 1; NFP – 1
PAC – 1; Al Jamaha – 1).


NOES – 111: (DA– 72; EFF – 28; FF Plus – 7; ACDP – 4).

Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 19: Social Development


Division demanded.
The House divided.



AYES – 218: (ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good – 2; Cope – 1; NFP – 1

PAC – 1; Al Jamaha – 1).

NOES – 113: (DA – 72; EFF – 30; FF Plus – 7; ACDP – 4).

Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 20: Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

Vote No 21: Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Agreed to.


Vote No 22: Correctional Services

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 23: Defence

Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 218: (ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good – 2; Cope -1; NFP -1
PAC –1; Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 112: (DA - 72; EFF -29; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 24: Independent Police Investigative Directorate

Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 218: (ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good – 2; Cope -1; NFP -1
PAC –1; Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 114: (DA - 73; EFF -30; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 25: Justice and Constitutional Development

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Agreed to.


Vote No 26: Military Veterans

Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 218: (ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good – 2; NFP -1 Cope -1;
PAC –1; Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 114: (DA - 73; EFF -30; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 27: Office of the Chief Justice

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Agreed to.


Vote No 28: Police

Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 216: (ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good – 2; NFP -1 Cope -1;).


NOES – 115: (DA - 73; EFF -30; FF Plus - 7; ACDP – 4; Al
Jamaha - 1).


Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 29: Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Agreed to.


Vote No 30: Communications and Digital Technologies

Division demanded.


The House divided.



AYES – 217:
Al Jamaha -

(ANC – 201; IFP – 11; Good 1).

– 2; NFP –


Cope – 1;

NOES – 111:

(DA – 73; EFF – 27; FF Plus

– 7; ACDP



Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 31: Employment and Labour

Division demanded.


The House divided.


AYES – 219: (ANC – 201; IFP – 13; Good – 2; NFP – 1; Cope – 1;

Al Jamaha – 1).


NOES – 111: (DA – 73; EFF – 27; FF Plus – 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 32: Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 33: Human Settlements


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.
Vote 34: Mineral Resources and Energy


Division demanded.

The House divided.




AYES – 220: (ANC – 203; IFP – 13; Good – 2; NFP – 1; Al Jamaha
- 1).


NOES – 112: (DA – 73; EFF – 27; FF Plus – 7; ACDP – 4; Cope –



Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 35: Science and Innovation


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.
Vote No 36: Small Business Development


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 37: Sport, Arts and Culture

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.

Vote No 38: Tourism


(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 39: Trade, Industry and Competition
(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Agreed to.


Vote No 40: Transport


Division demanded.

The House divided.




AYES – 219: (ANC – 201; IFP – 13; Good – 2; NFP – 1; Cope – 1;

Al Jamaha - 1).


NOES – 111: (DA – 73; EFF – 27; FF Plus – 7; ACDP – 4).


Question agreed to.


Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 41: Water and Sanitation
(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Question put on adoption of the schedule.


Schedule agreed to.



(Second Reading)


There was no debate.


Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).


There was no debate.


Ms G K Tseke moved: That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.



(Second Reading debate)


hon members, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, chair and members of the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development, guests and members of the media present here, our mandate as the department is to lead and co-ordinate an integrated approach to the promotion and development of entrepreneurship, small, medium enterprises and co-operatives, and to ensure an enabling environment for small and medium enterprises to thrive. Hon Chairperson, I don’t know if I’m audible.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You are audible hon Minister. Please proceed.

We are driven by the imperatives of the national deployment
plan, which suggests 9 million out of 11 million jobs we need by 2030, and 60% to 80% of future economic value should come from SMMEs. To achieve this, we have developed a national small enterprise performance strategic framework aimed at addressing red tape, market access and access to financial and non-financial business support. We are forging partnerships across the ecosystem to leverage support behind startups, small enterprises and co-operatives.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! Hon Minister, would you please hold for a second. Hon members, there is quite a lot of noise. The Minister is not audible enough. Would you please lower your noise levels? We know that fatigue is taking its toll now. We know that. You may proceed, hon Minister.


Chair. Hon members, we consulted extensively with the small enterprise and co-operative sector through various roadshows and policy dialogues. We’ve listened carefully to the issues they have raised. The existing legislative framework for SMMEs and co-operatives development is outdated and not fit for purpose. It doesn’t sufficiently respond to constitutional
principles of socio-economic rights and justice. Many of these issues will be addressed through this Amendment Bill.

Hon members, we have consistently heard about non-payment. Our SMMEs and co-operatives lose billions of rands annually due to late and non-payment by both government and the private sector. This is not just a loss for SMMEs, but a loss for the economy which is losing jobs and the revenue. Non and late payment results in liquidity and working capital challenges.
Currently, there exists no mechanism to resolve such disputes. Besides the monetary costs, the court processes are long winded and cumbersome. Owner managed small enterprises neither have time nor resources for litigation. This is the gap that the Bill seeks to address through the establishment of the Office of the Small Enterprises Ombuds.

The other core issue that the Bill seeks to address is the lack of integration of financial and non-financial services for SMMEs and co-operatives. The Bill proposes the creation of a one-stop-shop mall for small enterprise agency that can provide an integrated package of support to all segments of micro, small and medium enterprises. This will be done through the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development and Finance Agency, which incorporates Small Enterprise Finance
Agency, SEFA, the Co-operative Banks Development Agency, CBDA, into Small Enterprise Development Agency, SEDA.

The purpose of this new agency is to ensure that the small enterprise and co-operative ecosystem offers the most efficient business advice, the business development services, investment support, business facilitation, and incubator support. The vision of the agency is to be a leading development entity that will drive economic transformation and inclusive growth through ensuring the provision of customised financial and non-financial support and great access to finance for small enterprises and co-operatives.

The provision in the Bill to declare certain trading practises in relation to small enterprises and fair-trading practises has been retained. This is to ensure that the rights of small enterprises to trade and transact freely, to safeguard them against ambiguous and unfair practise by business in contract terms and to ensure the right to reasonable payment terms and interest on late payment. This provision will also hold large enterprises and governments to account. We are here to make history. We’re done with the compromises that undermine the role of SMMEs and co-operatives in economic transformation.
This is economically costly for our country.
Hon members, as confirmed by the SMMEs, co-operatives, and citizens in the public hearings, I’m sure we’ll all agree these are very relevant and strategic propositions that will unleash the SMMEs sector and pace our country on a higher and more inclusive growth path. We thank the portfolio committee for taking lead in this process. House Chair, I thank you and I introduce the Bill to the House.

Man V S SIWELA: Mutshamaxitulu na vahlonipheki, riperile. Ndzi tela ku ta rhula Nawumbisi wa “The role of Small Business and the economic necessity for its protection development and growth.”


Small business plays a major economic role in most economies in the world as they represent about 90% of businesses and more than 50% of employment worldwide. Formal small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, contribute up to 40% of national income GDP in emerging economies. These numbers are
significantly higher when informal or micro SMEs are included. In South Africa, the number is lower than the global as the contribution of small business to GDP is some 34% and the sector employs 55% of people in formal employment. While the
formal employment by small medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, is high in South African terms, but lower than the 60% to 70% of formal employment in Organisation for Economic Co- operation and development, OECD, countries.

According to Statistic SA, a breakdown of turnover by business size shows that small businesses were responsible for generating R2,3 trillion or 22% of the R10,5 trillion overall formal business turnover. Medium-sized businesses contributed the smallest portion, 10%, while large businesses accounted for the biggest chunk, just over two-thirds, 68% of total turnover. This clearly indicates that small business plays an important economic role and is going to be the driver of economic growth in South Africa.

The ANC government policy has placed emphasis on the growth and development of small, medium, and micro enterprises. While being cognisant of the positive economic role of the SMME sector the government further seeks that the sector should reverse the challenges of poverty, inequality, unemployment, and most especially historic economic inclusion.

The National Small Enterprises Amendment Bill is critical to pass at this conjuncture as the economy recovers with
employment increasing. The National Small Enterprises Amendment Bill is necessary to drive the development and growth of SMMEs as part of the implementation of the Economic Reconstruction and recovery plan. Critical to the implementation of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is the development of infrastructure, the implementation of the The District Development Model, DDM, as well as localisation and industrialisation. The focus of the economic plan is dependent on the development of the micro economy through the further growth of the micro economy. This will be accompanied by job creation. Moving forward small and This Bill must be accompanied by structures that resolve the challenges faced by small businesses in the country. In the past business plans for small businesses developed by the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, were declined funding from Small the Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, without any explanation as what is required to be improved for funding to be made available. It must deal with the excessive interest charged on Sefa funding by unscrupulous micro- lenders. There must be a reduction of red tape to ensure that there is far less of an administrative burden on SMME’s and a greater focus on the development of the business. The department and its entities must assist small business to access markets both domestic and export to ensure growth in
the revenue base of the SMME sector which in turn will increase job creation in local areas. These cases can now be reported to the Minister who is empowered to take action for unfair business practice, but preferably to the Small Business Ombud who will deal with such cases.

Our constitutional democracy ensures public participation in the shaping of the legislative process, and this has strengthened the content of the Bill and popularised in communities what the government is doing for the growth and development of SMMEs. The public participation process focussed on small business in both urban and rural areas.
There must be an emphasis in the implementation of the Bill to ensure the development of small and medium enterprises in rural areas whilst simultaneously growing the sector in the urban areas to ensure local beneficiation and agro-processing. Informal and micro enterprises must be targeted as part of the development of the sector for growth to move into the sphere of small business and the same should apply to small businesses to grow into medium enterprises. The public participation process indicated wide support for the Bill and its implementation. The issue of the lack of water and energy was raised in the public participation process. The department and its entity need to ensure that infrastructure is developed
around industrial parks and agro-processing zones. Localised solutions need to be found through independent power producers, IPPs, energy and not wait for the development of the grid and this can work for small local areas which will enable self-sufficiency. Infrastructure needs to be developed for the capture of rainwater for supply to small businesses as an immediate solution to the problem of the lack of water while ensuring that bulk infrastructure for supply of water is being constructed.

The overall objectives of the Bill are to ensure that there is further support rendered to the sector by the department and its entities which the Bill integrates into the Small Enterprise Finance Development Agency. Therefore, it is expected that the programmes assisting small businesses in the townships and rural areas will be incorporated into the activities of the agency.

Critical to the objectives is the development of the advisory board. The Bill details the role and functions of the advisory board. The portfolio committee will expect the highest standards of governance and fiduciary standards. The same applies to the reporting on the challenges and strengths of the small business sector. This will be made up of experts and
practitioners who will provide the Minister and Department with advice based on evidence and best practice in ensuring that the sector can grow in a conducive environment in the multiple facets that small business operates in. It must deal with the issue of creatively raising low cost finance for the development of the sector as current fiscal funding is far too low given the enormous contribution of the sector to the economy and the fiscus. The responsible creation of Co- operative Development Banks to finance and grow Small Business Enterprises in urban and rural areas is an important area for the financing of small enterprises and growth in the township economy.

The small business sector has long been pleading for support in dealing with legal matters as legal costs places a strain on limited working capital. This Bill delivers the solution to that pressing problem through the creation of the small business ombud services that will provide legal support to SMMEs. The small enterprise ombud service will handle complaints, resolve disputes and enforce contracts in the sector. This is intended to reduce legal costs for small business which will assist this sector in terms of its development and economic efficiency.
This Bill and the overall support of the ANC government for the development of SMMEs recognises the sector as an important driver of inclusive economic growth and transformation of the economy. This is necessary to drive demand in the domestic economy and improve exports.

Integrating the current programmes with the proposed structures of this legislation indicates high level support of the ANC government for the further development of the sector and increasing local job creation. This Bill needs to be implemented with urgency to ensure that the sector is developed within a stable economic environment and the department and its entities need to ensure that the public can access the opportunities which government has created to transform the lives of the people and create a better life for all.

Hi na ku tshemba leswaku Nawumbisi lowu wu ta pfuna vanhu va ka hina hikuva va kombela na tihofisi ekusuhi na le makaya leswaku ku ta va na swintshuxo. Van’wamabindzu lavatsongo a va swi koti ku tiyimela naswona a va swi koti ku ya etihubyeni ta nawu. Va karhatiwa loko ri xile. Loko se hi ta sungula hofifi ya ombadi yi ta kota ku va yimela yi va pfuna. Xikombelo xa
hina hi ri vakomiti hi ri Nawumbisi lowu a wu hoyozeriwi. Ndza khensa.

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Chair, let me start by saying although the development of this Bill was at first a little bit slow and then furiously rushed at the end, the DA does support the Small Enterprise Amendment Bill as it is before us today. The merging of the Small Enterprise Development Agency, SEDA, and Small Enterprise Finance Agency, SEFA, has been the idea that was supported by the DA ever since the moment ... [Inaudible.]
... and we welcome the streamlining of these two agencies. Hopefully, into a more efficient agency called the Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency.

We also welcome the creation of the Office of the Small Enterprise Ombud Service, another idea supported by the DA members of the committee since the 5th Parliament. It is, however, unfortunate that the committee missed the opportunity to insert our suggested ease of doing business measures as implemented in the Western Cape, but on the whole, we feel that this Bill is in the interest of small business development. It has however to be noted that the creation of any new agency and ombud does not automatically translate into small business assistance, the true assistance will always be
in the implementation practices of the agency and the Ombud office itself.

During our public participation proceedings, there were many submissions made that the current SEDA and SEFA services are either not easily accessible and burdened with relentless red tape and inefficiencies. As Parliament, we can craft legislation that set the table for small business assistance, but ultimately, the government needs to implement these services in a manner that is transparent, professional and accessible. Unfortunately, these are not traits commonly associated with the current government’s general service delivery. Chair, we urge the Minister to use this opportunity that the Bill creates and to fill the new Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency and office of Ombud with professional staff and administrators that are not chosen for their ANC membership cards, but rather for their professional qualifications and ability to get the job done.

We will, however, not hold our breath on this issue, as the ANC is a well-documented policy of guided deployment that does not produce professional state employees, but rather, unqualified and political connected cadres. I want to acknowledge my fellow committee members across party lines. We
might not agree on many issues, but I think we respectfully work together, and we produced a well-balanced Amendment Bill. Chair, we support the Small Enterprise Amendment Bill, and we hope that the implementation will assist our community of small business owners and stakeholders. Thank you, Chair.

Mr T MOGALE: House chairperson, the EFF supports the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill. This Bill aims to reduce bureaucratic hurdles that obstruct small businesses from accessing financial support. The proposed measure of SEFA-SEDA and co-operative bank into Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency, is a step towards rectifying the deficiencies of the Department of Small Businesses, indirectly supporting small enterprises. However, it is imperative that this Bill does not deviate into perpetuating the corruption previously observed in SEFA. Our oversight in the North West earlier this year, highlighted the serious malpractices. Such corrupt behaviours must be met with strict legal consequences.

The proposed new section 3(a) and the amendment of section 20, which empower the Minister to regulate unfair trading and categorise businesses, are concerning. Centralising such power risks misuse and discrimination against certain small businesses. We propose replacing these sections with the
Section 3(a) subsection 1, defining a small, medium and micro enterprise businesses, as one that trades products and skills of their choice and revised section 20 subsection 1, establishing clear rules against unfair trading practices. Our disagreement with centralised ministerial power is fuelled by the adverse impact we have observed in key sectors like Eskom, SA Airways, SAA, flights, Denel, Transnet and Railways, where such power is misused.

The Bill overlooks the crucial aspect of landing business sustainability. The maxim that one small business, one piece of land, should be integral to our approach, ensuring that small businesses have land rights akin to commercial farmers. The formation of an Ombudsman office is a positive step, yet to comprehensively address the challenges faced by small businesses, a tribunal should be established. This body will gather issues from small business owners across provinces, ensuring that their Ombudsman offices addresses a wide spectrum of concerns, not just a select few.

The government treatment of the taxi industry is problematic. Recognised as a successful business sector, it nevertheless faces continuous challenges, such as frequent impoundment of vehicles, particularly by the DA-led racist government in the
Western Cape. The Bill should offer specific solutions to the tax industry, especially regarding the issue of inflated instalments due to rent manipulation. There is a need to demystify the role of foreign nationals in South Africa. They are not just the community members, but also key players in the economy owning significant ventures like Cape Winelands and large retailers. However, the recent discovery of expired goods in major outlets like Shoprite, Spar and Pick and Pay, is alarming.

We call for vigilance among consumers and a proactive approach in exposing such practice. In summary, while the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill is a step in the right direction, it requires significant adjustments. These include preventing corruption, decentralising power, acknowledging the importance of land ownership, supporting the taxi industry and addressing the complexities involving foreign national in our economy. By making these changes, the Bill can be more effectively support and nature small businesses across South Africa, however, the long-term solution to challenges facing small businesses is to close the department, return all its functions to the Department of Trade and Industry, and link small businesses with a clear industrial policy that will
place small businesses at the centre of manufacturing, reindustrialisation and building of new industries.

The solution to small businesses today, is paying them on time when they have delivered services to government and in state- owned entities, because government is killing Small and Medium Enterprises, SMEs, by delaying payments. In some municipalities, especially metros, municipal officials demand payments before they process invoices, which in itself, is institutionalised corruption. Lastly, SMEs are jobs, and jobs will come from the SMEs. We need to agree that certain SMEs must be protected and given resources with a condition that they provide sustainable jobs with a living wage and not give this responsibility to the private sector. Thank you.

Inkosi B N LUTHULI: Chairperson, the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill aims to bring positive changes, reform and assistance to the people of South Africa through economic inclusion. The IFP upholds the principles passed down by the late umntwana wakaPhindangene, emphasising self-help and self- reliance as the keys to bringing dignity and prosperity to all.
The Bill takes a significant step in providing services that contribute to our economic growth and job creation. Small businesses, which are the lifeblood of our country, play a crucial role in developing rural areas, supporting the local communities and affecting hope to South Africans facing economic challenges.

The IFP appreciates the effort to reduce red tape by establishing the Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency. This agency streamlines the application of, and fund the disbursement processes, ensuring that small business owners find answers in one place, instead of being sent through multiple channels.

However, we express a concern about the power granted to the Minister, particularly in overseeing the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, Cipfa’s, performance. The Minister holds the sole discretion in holding the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, accountable, which raises skepticism, and gives a low level of public trust to address this, and the propose of the establishment of the ombudsman, with public awareness and the powers, to ensure accountability to both the department and the Minister.
We hope for collaboration amongst the Minister, Cipfa, and the Ombudsman, fostering a positive working relationship. In conclusion, the IFP supports the Bill and appreciates your attention to these important matters. I thank you.

Mr W W WESSLS: House Chairperson, this Bill is a step in the right direction and small businesses are the backbone of the South African economy. The establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Finance Agency will hopefully streamline the financing of small enterprises and the creation of the ombudsman will hopefully also limit the current corruption and fraud that is involved in finance agencies.

It is welcomed that this will be addressed and the amalgamation of Cipfa and Seda is something that is long overdue. Billions of rands that have been intended to assist, small enterprises have gone to waste, due to corruption at Cipfa and Seda. This is unacceptable and hopefully these measures will limit that and protect small businesses, so that there is development.

The Minister also now will have the power to protect small enterprises from unfair practices, but one of the most unfair practices that is, killing small businesses is tender
corruption and that should obviously be addressed to really solve this problem was.

While the FF plus supports this Bill, it must be noted that the only way to create a conducive environment for small businesses to thrive is not with legislation or a Bill, but it is to have a government that delivers services necessary for any business, and especially small businesses to function. We must limit red tape in all sectors, especially where small businesses need licenses and permits to trade. I thank you.

Mr W M THRING: House Chairperson, the ACDP positions that our economy lives and breeds off the success of entrepreneurial small businesses. While government has implemented numerous programmes to support small business growth and development, the mountains of regulations are limiting it. No one can stand or should stand for national teams playing with their hands tied behind their backs. Similarly, we should not allow millions of SMEs to be held back from reaching their full potential, due to the mountains of red tape.

The sheer volume of legal compliance and regulations, policies, licensing and permits that business owners must deal with can easily add up to multiple days of compliance tasks
every year. It is time that could instead be spent on building the business.

On the establishment of the Office of Small Enterprise Ombud, the ACDP agrees that this office must be used to create greater stability in the sector and advance economic opportunity through the creation of opportunities for small businesses.

The ACDP asserts that access to finance is one of the most significant barriers to small business growth in South Africa, and this Bill rightfully seeks to address this impediment.
Small businesses in South Africa often battle with inadequate infrastructure and technology. This includes poor Internet connectivity, outdated technology systems and load shedding.

Government’s mismanagement, and the corruption uncovered at Eskom means serious impediments to small business owners. Load shedding causes them to miss deadlines, resulting in late or no payment on concluded deals. Almost every small business in South Africa has a negative story to tell in this regard.

The challenges of forecasted global and local recessions can be alleviated by providing entrepreneurs with a supportive
business environment that would spawn new dynamic, innovative and competitive businesses. Since small businesses account for a stunning 60% of the gross domestic product, GDP, and 70% of employment, they play a crucial role in assisting our economy in overcoming some severe economic headwinds.

This Bill must be used to remove the unnecessary red tape, allowing small businesses to ramp up production, leading to job creation, poverty alleviation and economic health. The ACDP supports this Bill. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, yes, let me say, while we are talking here, bulldozers are busy right now in Gaza, and if you look at the number of casualties, it's shocking. The NFP will support this Bill. Let me also say, that I heard earlier in the comments that some of us are in the dark. Yes, indeed, some of us are in the dark in this House. Let me clarify that darkness since you were the darkness and where the light is.

It is not correct that the Ingonyama Trust matter is in an appeals court. It's not. The Ingonyama Trust Board withdrew the appeal three weeks ago, so in essence, the Minister has got another two months and one week to implement the original findings, which means the Ingonyama Trust land must pay back
all the money they've been taking from these poor people living on Ingonyama Trust land because the court found that it was unconstitutional and unlawful for you to go lease and take money from these people on the land that rightfully belongs to them without title deeds.

I pray that we all see the light and leave the darkness behind. That is a true reflection and of course let us not forget one of the leading media reports on this, the City Press, and we all know the City Press there was an attempt to gag them recently, but they continued the good work. Now some of the challenges in the small business sector I want to raise are these. First of all, the cost of doing business which appears to be a serious problem. The second one is access to funding, and let us not forget the role that banks play in this country and what they were trying to do recently with the Sekunjalo Group, by Standard Bank and Nedbank, and that is why I think some control measures must be put in place because these banks are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of the poorest of the poor people.

Now there is no doubt the potential for economic growth comes from small and medium enterprises, but we need to give them support and I'm glad it's not just about giving them money
when they don't have the management skills. They don't have the human resource skills. So all these things need to be included for them to be a success, and what has been happening is we've just been giving them money and that is why they've been failing. So I think in light of that, the amendment that is being put in place will go a long way to ensure there is greater success, but also I think we need to help them in terms of promoting, marketing, exporting and things that are talking to the unions because it's very difficult for small businesses to survive and let us not forget the government that does not pay these people on time despite us having asked them to be paid within 30 days and not paying them which put added pressure on to them. The NFP will support this. Thank you very much.

Mr T LOATE: House Chair, the committee considered the suggestions raised by the public regarding the Bill and flagged the clauses where concerns were raised. Once again, the problem that arose is one that has been prevalent for a long time in the government. Complaints were raised that the Bill gave too much power to the Minister to declare certain trading practices unfair and prohibited. This is a very dangerous thing. After all, the President is unwilling to make
public the assessments of the Ministers in his Cabinet, giving the Ministers too much power.

Furthermore, it is anti-democratic and we want South Africa to become a thriving democracy. The portfolio committee also wants the ombud to be accountable to Parliament and not to the Minister. Indeed, that has to be so. How can an ombud serve any useful purpose if neutrality and impartiality are taken away? Furthermore, the ombud has to be a person with the right qualifications and experience, not just another cadre. If SMMEs had been accorded the attention they so richly deserve, our economy would have been in a much better state of health. From the report, it seems to me that this Bill is very muddled and poorly constructed. The committee wanted to know what exactly the meaning of advocacy was. As used in the Bill, advocacy is indeed the right word but will it be everything that everyone chooses it to mean? In Singapore, for instance, Enterprise Singapore is supporting the growth and development of small and medium enterprises by offering various resources, tools and initiatives to help the SMEs with trade, innovation, internationalisation and sustainability. Will trade innovation, internationalisation and sustainability be part of the advocacy the Bill envisages?
The committee, from what I see, has still to engage with the Department of Small Business Development and Parliament’s constitutional and legal services offices on some of the clauses that were flagged as vague, ambiguous and controversial. The Bill will only be tabled next year. I hope that clearer thinking and more precise wording will occur to improve the Bill to the extent that is necessary. The committee must continue with its good work and help to make this Bill that small enterprises will wholly welcome. I thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, Al Jama-ah supports the Bill and we like to thank everyone who been involved in us being able to present this Bill to Parliament, including the many people all over the country who took part in the public participation programme. The President has expected us to create 10 million jobs and he has also identified 1 000 products for localisation, and this has unfortunately been out of reach of the Sixth Parliament and we hope the Seventh Parliament will have more success.

When it comes to the mandate of the Small Business Development Department, they are nowhere to be seen when any jobs are created in the small business sector. It's other departments
that are assisting. They are nowhere to be found. The Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, and the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development have struggled the last four years in trying to get anything out of them. I would like to announce that there has been a successful venture called Groutville Peanut Butter, and the founder is the daughter-in-law of Chief Albert Luthuli and uses Chief Albert Luthuli Hall as the factory for this peanut butter. So the government departments outside of the Small Business Development Department have assisted and I've just seen the marketing material, if I show you the photograph of the sandwich with peanut butter on, you will eat up that photograph. Groutville produces the best peanut butter in South Africa. It grows along the river and the whole community is involved in this particular project. So there are communities like Groutville all over the country that need our assistance and I'm very proud of what the founder of Groutville Peanut Butter has achieved, Mrs Veli Luthuli, the daughter-in-law of the late Chief Albert Luthuli.

I support the Bill; they talk about the ombudsman, if you look at what Seda and Sefa and the Department of Small Business Development have done in the last Parliament, in this Parliament, we don't need an ombudsman, we need a sheriff to
arrest hundreds of them for destroying livelihoods, for not creating livelihoods and it's a very sad chapter of small business development in the Fifth Parliament and the Sixth Parliament, and hope it won't be the case in the Seventh Parliament. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We are looking forward to the peanut butter sandwich.

AN HON MEMBER: House Chair! [Laughter.]


ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Phambili nge-peanut butter!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, ...


... phambili nge-peanut butter.


Mr M S MABIKA: House Chair, the latest opinion tells us that unemployment is by far the most pressing issue South Africans are concerned about. Joblessness is the root of all evil and creates greater crime statistics, more hunger and the uncertainty of the future. Addressing the unemployment crisis is, therefore, a most critical part of any hope of economic
recovery, as nearly all of South Africa's ills are driven by the desperation of those seeking economic refuge. The National Treasury tells us that income tax collection is at an all-time low, which is also driven by unemployment.

A caring government would create an ecosystem for job creation. This is an environment where the private sector is able to do the necessary to employ more people. The National Treasury Fourth Quarter Report for the period 1 July 2022 to
30 June 2023 reflects that amounts owed by municipalities to small businesses for more than 30 days, amounts to a staggering R76 billion. On a provincial level, we saw a staggering number of 263 359 invoices at R28,9 billion not paid to small businesses after the mandated 30-day period. The ombudsman must play a vital role in ensuring that small businesses get paid on time. The current environment is hostile enough towards SMMEs and it requires a specific effort from a dedicated entrepreneur just to make ends meet. It is unacceptable for the government to strangle every penny out of their cash flow. The National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill makes noise in the right direction, however, because of the Minister's ambition to leave a legacy of being friendly towards small businesses, which she is not, the ANC seeks to steamroll this Bill through the processes. In doing so, it's
missing out on a golden opportunity to fix the broken ecosystem in which small businesses are forced to operate in.

The addition of an ease of doing business unit section in the Bill would have added a unit suited to assisting SMMEs. We must see this Bill as a work in progress the Seventh Parliament must work very hard to make the playing field of doing business as easy as possible. We are moving in dire straits where the ANC government has seen the fruits of their macro policy implementation in the SMMEs landscape. The end of ANC rule cannot come a moment too soon. Make no mistake about it, the ANC knows its days of running the government are numbered.


Phuma ANC, ingene i-DA ...


... to rescue South Africa. [Time expired.]


Mr F JACOBS: House Chair, hon members and fellow South Africans, today we stand united in the transformative South African’s economic narrative with the Second reading of the National Small Enterprise Amendment Bill. This momentous
occasion is the culmination of hard work. It is not only a legislative process but a Bill striked toward revitalising our economy especially economic planning and implementation and the revitalisation of our townships, rural and local economic in the implantation of the District Development Model post- COVID-19.

I want to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all political parties in the portfolio committee. We demonstrated what we can do by working together under the leadership of our chair. We also want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of all parliamentarian staff that really helped us.

This Bill is a response to an urgent call to bolster our economy where small business is indeed big business and everybody’s business. Our vision is to buy local, to create local jobs and to say, local is “lekker” [good]. It is an essential strategy to invigorate the District Development Model and fuel growth across our communities. This Bill aims to stimulate growth across dorpies, townships, breeding life into communities that have long awaited their moment to thrive. We envisage a future where small business across sectors like services, information and communication technologies, ICT, finance, manufacturing, clothing and agro-
food processing can become a catalyst for economic empowerment, consumers spending, increased demand and inclusive growth.

The Bill before us is a testimony of the ANC’s commitment to nourish, grow and protect small medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, across our diverse landscape. Invision the transformative impact of nurturing small business across our sectors. This Bill marks the beginning of economic change driving sectorial growth and local job creation.

As the ANC we see this Bill as a call for economic change nurturing the backbone of our economy including the SMMEs and co-operatives. Addressing the financial challenges we must seek innovative low cost capital solutions. We share the sentiment that access to finance has been a challenge. It is heartening to witness the fanatical sectors reluctant to support economic development. Remember, during COVID-19 the government had R200 billon loan scheme for small business and banks didn’t come to the party and didn’t provide loans for small businesses. This underscores the need for alternative financial avenues and co-operative banks and the state bank.
For this Bill to succeed we need to open up the markets and breakdown the economic cartels and monopolies. The greed and collusions of banks with currency manipulation is shameful and should be condemned. By ensuring adequate market space for small business, we combat unfair trading that hinder their growth. This effort aligns with the proactive role of the Competition Commission in fostering health market competition. This Bill introduces small enterprises development financial agency, a consolidated effort to streamline support and financial accessibility to our entrepreneurs. The aim is to create bankable business plans and provide financial support at minimal capital cost. This is crucial for small business to achieve profitability and sustainable growth. This agency symbolises our vision for inclusive economic structure where small business can thrive.

We like other political parties say that the small enterprise development finance agency, Sedfa, must be established, integrated and capacitated very quickly because we as the portfolio committee will watch the oversight. We want to ensure that they provide seamless report and services and become a beacon of hope and inspiration and symbolising a future where small business can sell.
The establishment of the small enterprise ombudsman under this Bill is a testimony to our commitment to fair play, justice in the business area. This serves as to level the playing fields, ensuring that small businesses can compete fairly and resolve disputes effectively. The ombudsman service must be the guardian, the protector against unfair trading practices and economic bullying both from government entities and big established businesses. Its aim is to establish financial burden and legal costs for SMMEs offering them accessible and effective justice pathway.

Our commitment extends ensuring that young entrepreneurs whom, women and individuals living with disability can access these economic opportunities. When coming to the department to make our communities a way of these resources opportunities ensuring that this legislation becomes a tool for empowerment and economic inclusion.

Our journey during this nation engaging the public hearings has been a testament to our commitment by the people for the people. From the bussling streets of Douglass, Upington, Pietermaritzburg, Mahikeng to the spirited communities of Modimolle, Machabeng, Athlone, Bredasdorp, Mdantsane, Matatiele, uMsunduzi, eThikweni, Joburg and Rustenburg the
message was very clear. Our people demand and support the revitalisation of small business. This Bill is our response and our collective aspirations to deal with the challenges of our communities. In fact, this portfolio committee visited more than 20 districts and five metropolitans. We were on the road for more than four weeks. We received a total of 4 933 participants in the hearings. More than 505 people spoke.
Overwhelmingly, 79% of those that made oral submissions supported the Bill and 15% partly supported the Bill. We also received more than 200 written and electronic submissions.

In the words of Biko, entrepreneurs, SMMEs and co-operatives of kind of standing at sidelines of the game they should be playing. It’s time for them to actively serve the economy.
This Bill we believe will support, enable and empower those entrepreneurs. It must be a clarion call for action and for economic transformation forward towards a vibrant, conclusive and prosperous growth. The ANC stand resolute in supporting this Bill, a step towards realising of a vision of a vibrant, conclusive and economic robust Sout Africa.

Finally, if you love your freedom let unite in condemning designers Israeli occupiers who continued genocide and massacre on civilians, women and children. Every day we see it
live. Let’s vote out designers here in Cape Town and the Western Cape let’s vote out the DA here in Cape Town.
Capetonians deserve better. I thank you.



would like to take this opportunity to thank all the parties, members of the portfolio community for their support towards this Bill. This has not been an easy task. We have done towing and froing but most importantly they spent most of the time away from their families and away from Cape Town where they ar dedicated to work. Just because they wanted to make sure that everyone in South Africa gets an opportunity to have a say in this critical Bill. And for that we really appreciate as the government.

House Chair, there are few things that have been highlighted by the members and of course this is not a new observation especially the parties that feel that it is not okay to include the section I spoke about earlier, section 70(1) which talks to the powers of the Minister in relation to the publication of certain areas of the businesses that we can’t undertake.
Now, I want to refer the members and anyone else who may share the same sentiment like those hon members who feel like these are too much powers for the Minister. I would like to refer you to read section 17(y) because the concern was on section
17 (y)(1). I want you to read that jointly with section 17(3) which clearly articulate what kind of practices the Minister can determine ... [Inaudible.] ... on the fact that the Minister will consult with the ombuds ... [In audible.] ... and I thank all of you, hon members.

Ms N P SONTI: On a point of order, Chair: Chairperson, I think it is better for the Ministers to come here and answer the question here rather than ... [Interjections.] ... I can’t hear anything ... I can’t hear nothing. They must come here.


manje. Yeka ukusibhedela.


Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Wena Lindiwe ukhonjwe ubani? UsunguSihlalo? The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT:

Yindaba yakho yini leyo ukuthi ngikhonjwe ubani.
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: UsunguSihlalo? Uthanda ukukhuluma wena Lindiwe.

Nksz N V MENTE: Vala umlomo wena Lindiwe ungazosiqhela.


umlomo. Valani umlomo nani.

Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Ave ukuthanda ukukhuluma wena Ginger. Ucananga ukuthi uyasatshwa awuvale umlomo omkhulu.

Ms B MATHULELWA: On a point of order Chair.





...it’s allowed to be on hybrid.


Yekani uNgqongqoshe akhulume.
Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Wena ukuthi kuvumelekile njengobani? Wena Lindiwe ...

... Who do you think you are?



njengeLungu le -ANC, njengelungu le Phalamende.

Nk H O MKHALIPHI: UnguNgqongqoshe kini.


iziphukuphuku thina.


Mk N MHLONGO: Wena Lindiwe, lunga lelihloniphekile Zulu, ungadzimate utigcabhe ngekuba yiNdvuna. Kulomnyaka lotako kuyaphela.



nisidelela kanjalo.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Please, mute them. Hon members, those who were shouting on the virtual your behaviour is totally unbecoming. You actually reduced this House to a tavern. It’s totally unacceptable. Hon Hadebe, you wanted to rise on a point of order.

Chairperson, this House adopted Rules of virtual platform and hybrid. As much as we want Ministers to be in the House but when they are in the virtual platform they are still in the House because we have adopted those Rules. It cannot be that Ministers must be forcefully come to the House. In the virtual platform they are still in the House. I want to plead with you, hon Chair, that we had a very long day. So, we want the proceedings to move smoothly without any interruptions. Thank you very much.

Ms B MATHULELWA: On a point of order, Chair: I have raised my hand before the speaker. We have been running this process very smoothly ...


... u ya fika yena...

... with a very, very ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, that’s
not a point of order.


MATHULELWA: We can’t give such a Minister powers – we can’t
give this type of a Minister ...

U ya delela wena, u sjawyela kabi.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! ICT, I have already requested you to mute these members on the platform. I have already requested you to remove these people from the platform.

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I am rising on Rule 69. We cannot allow a situation whereby as a presiding officer you are undermined. We cannot have fighting matches inside the House. I really appreciate that you have said that they have to be removed from the platform. I think that you must be respected as the Chairperson of the House according to Rule 69 because they are creating chaos in the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very, much.

Mr M MANYI: Thank you, Chairperson. I just thought I should clarify the point of order in that the issue is not to object to people being on virtual, but the issue is that we are being failed by technology. The participation of people in virtual especially Ministers they seem to be in all kinds of bad reception areas all the time. That is inhibiting their contribution here. People are here wanting to hear answers, but if Ministers are not going to prioritise being here, it is a problem.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I am sure that mater has been well addressed, hon Manyi. There are Rules that have been adopted with regard to the processes that are taking place here, and they should be recognised as such.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Chair, Mine is just an advice to the Minister. There way there is an echo probably there are two gadgets. If she can switch off the other gadget it will be fine. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. But I don’t think that is a crisis because you could hear what she was saying.

Mr N M PAULSEN: Chair, you are best to do your job. I would appreciate if you would give our members an opportunity when they raise their hands to raise a point of order. I think that
... just like you allow everyone else in this House to raise a point of order also give our members on the virtual platform an opportunity to raise a points of order. You can’t put these members off because there are too many of them. It’s going to be chaotic.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen, thank you very much. It is becoming a normal practice to some of your members that they can just shout anyhow. It is becoming a normal practice, and it cannot be acceptable. No one is barred from raising a point of order – no one. But the manner in which they go about is totally unacceptable.

Ms N V MENTE: On a point of order: Chair: Earlier on, Minister Zulu insulted the member in the House when she raised on a point of order that they can’t hear anything. She has a right to make you aware that they cannot hear inside the House. Hon
Zulu comes in and start insulting a member and you do not rule on that. The next thing she comes in and insult all of us that we are mad, and nothing happened. Afterwards you just called all of us to be muted. When we are raising hands, you do not recognise us. Can Minister Zulu withdraw the remarks she made earlier on. They are not acceptable, and they are not parliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Mente. Hon Zulu, did you make that comment, if I may find out? Hon Minister Zulu, did you make such a comment? I am not getting a response. Hon Mente I will take this up and it will be followed. I cannot rule because I haven’t heard anything.

Ms N P SONTI: Chair...



UMphathiswa utshilo ukuba siyadelela ...


... simjwayela kabi.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We will make a follow up on that.
Bill read a second time.



Chairperson and hon members, section 45 of the Constitution states that Parliament, the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, must establish a Joint Rules Committee to make rules and orders concerning the joint business of the two Houses. The purpose of the rules is in principle to set up framework within which members and political parties, who are often opposed to each other, can engage and interact in a democratic and meaningful way, one which gives expression to the will of the people. Indeed, without rules it would be very difficult for Parliament to discharge its constitutional mandate. The Joint Rules deal with, among other matters, order in the Joint Sittings and rules of debate, joint committees, the legislative process and the Code of Ethics for parliamentarians.

The Joint Rules were last comprehensively reviewed over 10 years ago. Of course, the rules are living articles and
Parliament has evolved. New practices have developed, not least owing to the recent pandemic and the fire. In this context, the Joint Rules Committee decided that a comprehensive review of the rules was necessary. This review was initiated in the Fifth Parliament but could not be concluded. The Sixth Parliament therefore resumed this endeavour. The Joint Subcommittee on Review of the Joint Rules has since finalised Chapters 1 and 2 of the Joint Rules of Parliament, which deal with definitions, sources of authority and application, Joint Sittings of the Houses, joint rules applicable to virtual and hybrid Joint Sittings, and the rules on order in Joint Sittings and rules of debate.

Work was also done on other chapters, but these require further scrutiny. Owing to the limited time this year, the Joint Rules Committee opted to consider Chapter 1 and 2 in the interim. In summary, substantive changes proposed to Chapters
1 and 2 include, amongst others, the inclusion of sources of authority for the rules, public participation in Parliament, the opening of Parliament and the state of the nation address, the responsibilities of presiding officers, the conduct of members and points of orders, and questions of privilege.
The rules can only achieve their purpose if Members of Parliament understand and appreciate their intent. It is therefore always preferable for the rules to be based on consensus, and I can report that discussions on the drafts were typically constructive and practical, with members drawing on their collective experiences and knowledge. One of the key issues raised in the discussions concern decorum and the conduct of members. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the repeated instances of disorder in joint sittings. To address such challenges, the Rules Committee proposed that the rules be clarified so that members know the powers conferred and limitations imposed on them.

What is more, the authority of the presiding officers has been reinforced, but members, as I have said, that it is incumbent on all of us to respect the rules and the good standing of Parliament. By way of conclusion, let us make use of the rules to advance our agenda and the people’s business. Within these comments, I would like to endorse the proposed rules and commend them to this House. Let me take this opportunity to thank all Members of Parliament from both Houses who participated in the Subcommittee on the Amendment and Review of the Joint Rules, and also appreciate that the Joint Rules
Committee met and adopted this rule. Hon House Chairperson, I thank you.

There was no debate.



House Chair, I move:


That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party, National Freedom Party, Congress of the People, Al Jama-ah and African National Congress.

Declarations of votes:
Dr A LOTRIET: House Chairperson, yesterday in the House I said that rights come with responsibilities, and the way in which we balance and manage these rights and responsibilities is through our rules. It is therefore a step forward and a necessary step that this report on the Proposed Amendments of the Joint Rules of Parliament serves before this House today. The Joint Rules Committee referred the Joint Rules of Parliament to the Joint Subcommittee on the Review of the
Joint Rules in 2019. The purpose of the review was to update the Joint Rules, given the innovations contained in the revised rules of the National Assembly as well as the National Council of Provinces. The review provided an opportunity to incorporate Joint Rules that were adopted by the Houses subsequent to the 6th Edition, which was in 2011, as well as recent court judgements that affected the Joint Rules of Parliament.

Now, these proposed amendments that we have to deal with today includes, among others, for example, new definitions, sources of authority and application, authority of the presiding officers, conduct of members, grossly disorderly conduct, rules on order or disorder in Joint Sittings. It will now be part of the Joint Rules and of special importance that I would like to highlight is the inclusion of the rule on grossly disorderly conduct, which specifies that members may not engage in grossly disorderly conduct in a Joint Sitting by deliberately creating serious disorder or disruption in any manner whatsoever, physically intervening, preventing, obstructing or hindering the removal of a member from the Chamber who has been ordered to leave the Chamber, repeatedly undermining the authority of the presiding officer, or repeatedly refusing to obey the rulings of the presiding
officer, or repeatedly disrespecting and interrupting the presiding officer while the latter is addressing the House, and then also persisting in making serious allegations against a member or other person in the House, or acting in any other way to the serious detriment of the dignity, the decorum or orderly procedure of the House.

Now, although these amendments must be adopted, the fact is that this is an indictment on Parliament that we have to deal with this. It is an indictment that it is necessary to specify and develop rules to prevent such behaviour. Surely, as hon members who have taken an oath to respect, promote, protect and apply the values and principle of our Constitution, our behaviour and conduct in the House should portray this.
Therefore, what we are seeing in our plenaries and Joint Sittings is anything but, and unfortunately, this is then not the case, and we need these rules. We are obliged to have these rules to prevent this kind of conduct. Surely, South Africa deserves a Parliament they can be proud of. The DA supports the Report. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson and colleagues, there’s a thing called consequence management. And we all in this House,
whenever we deal with financial reports or any department, we talk about consequence management.

They say you do the crime; you do the time. That’s a normal thing. And I believe for any wrong that we may do in anything, there must be consequences. Otherwise, if there are no rules and no order, then there’s no point in us convening as a House.

This House has an established tradition of having rules, rules of order that apply to all of us equally. The important thing is that in the application of the rules, the Presiding Officers have to be fair in the way they ensure that the rules are applied.

Hon Chairperson, we have seen on a number of occasions when the Joint Sitting takes place, particularly when state of the nation takes place, that the whole nation is waiting for an address by the President of the country. We find that the three arms of state are there, represented; we find business represented; we find labour represented. Everybody looks forward to the state of the nation address.
And it is incumbent upon us as Members of Parliament, MPs, who have to respond to that state of the nation address to ensure that the person delivering that state of the nation address, it could maybe one day, as President, is given his right to deliver that address, because we as Members of Parliament are given a concomitant right to respond to that address. And that is where we can raise our points of order or our points of argument on the debate.

So, I feel this rule as the IP is very necessary for us to restore order and to ensure that we empower the Presiding Officers to do what is right: maintain discipline, maintain order and ensure that we do things within a set of the rules.

So, we would support this report, Chairperson. Thank you.


Mr W W WESSELS: House Chair, it is a shame that the South African Parliament needs Joint Rules that define gross disorderly misconduct.

As Members of Parliament we should all respect the reason that we are here. The reason that we are representatives of the people out there and that we are here to debate vigorous,
different stances on our policies and our ideologies, and get to solutions to the problems facing South Africa.

But that is not what happens in especially Joint Sittings. We are subject to complete misconduct and disorder that result in Parliament being classified by the people out there as a circus and a kindergarten; and that is a shame. We should all be ashamed of that.

Although it is necessary that the authority of a Presiding Officer be redefined in the Joint Rules, it is also so that a Presiding Officer should be respected and his or her authority should be respected. But then a Presiding Officer should also not make biased decisions and be consequential in decision making and rulings. That will contribute to better discipline in our sittings.

I think we should all welcome these rules; it’s long overdue. And we need to restore this Parliament ... the dignity of this Parliament and there should be consequences and I am very glad to see what happened last night and what was accepted last night because we need consequences for disorder.
We can’t only have rules, we need to enforce those rules and when there’s transgressions, have consequences. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP supports this report and it is crucial that the dignity and order of every sitting of the House and more particularly Joint Sittings is maintained. And that particularly when we have state of the nation sittings, when the nation wants to hear what the President has to say about the challenges facing the nation, what he has to say about solutions and what the opposition parties want to say when they want to hold him accountable.

Misconduct and disruptions as we’ve witnessed in the past cannot be tolerated and, therefore, strengthening of the rules to apply to the Joint Sittings is required.

House Chair, when we travelled to Kenya, it was quite embarrassing when we had Kenyan and other African Members of Parliament asking us how do we tolerate such disruptions in our Parliament and why don’t we take stronger action to stop those disruptions?
And it is very important that we, therefore, strengthen our rules and ensure that they are enforced to maintain the dignity and decorum of our House because not only is it South Africa’s Parliament, but it is Africa as a whole, as a continent that needs ... that is watching us very closely.

So, the ACDP will support this report. I thank you. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen, hon Paulsen, what’s wrong now? [Interjections.] But you cannot just shout at the top of your voice like that. Hon Paulsen, can you stop this kind of behaviour ...

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, I rise on a point of order. I understand that it is unparliamentary to refer to a person as being a racist. Hon Paulsen just referred to me as a racist and I’d ask you to rule in that regard.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Paulsen, I heard you saying that. Could you please withdraw what you have just said to Mr Swart!
I can’t hear you, hon member. Could you please withdraw what you have just said! Can you withdraw what you have just said, hon ... I can’t hear what you are saying.

Mr M N PAULSEN: I’m sorry for calling the Zionist a racist.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Are you withdrawing?

Mr M N PAULSEN: ... [Inaudible.] ... did man ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can’t hear you.


Mr M N PAULSEN: Okay, I withdraw.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, sit down.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the NFP will support the report table here today. But I think in talking about amending the rules, perhaps we need to go deeper.

Don’t you think it’s time we start changing and amending the Constitution of the country? Because many people start hiding
under this democracy or this constitutional right to do this, and to do that ... [Interjections.]

Ms O M C MAOTWE: That's why you're not coming back, wena [you].

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members ...


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: So, the point is, don’t you think ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please lower your voices so that a member can continue with his speech! Please lower your voices. Hon members, please lower your voices.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Well, one thing ... I can say that without any doubt there are many people that don’t want me to come back to this House, so, I’ve heard the comment before. [Laughter.]

But be that as it may, the point I’m trying to make, Chairperson, is this, that maybe at some stage we need to start relooking at the Constitution because people hide behind this constitutional right and democratic right to conduct
themselves in a particular manner. And every time you want to address it ... I mean, at this level of governance you expect to go and continuously amend the rules.

What is the message are we giving out to the 62 million people in this country and those outside the country, those that want to invest, those that supposed to have confidence in us? This is what we showing.

But I can tell you one of the problems, hon Chairperson, you can amend these rules as many times as you want, but if the consequences do not match that offence, we are wasting our time.

This thing of people making all kinds of statement, insulting, abusing, attacking and then all you do ... the damage is done, the damage is done, and then all you must do is withdraw it.
But in the meantime you’ve done the damage.


Now, don’t compare that with what I say, I’m telling you the truth about you and the Zionist. So, don’t come ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] ... okay. So, let’s not go there
... [Inaudible.]
But the point I’m saying to you ... [Interjections.]


Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chair, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ICT, I’ve long

requested you to remove hon Maotwe on the platform.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Over what, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I’ve long done that. I’m surprised that she’s still here ...

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chair, what have I done?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... doing the same thing again. Just hold on. I’m very surprised. I have long said she must be removed.

Hon Paulsen!

Mr M N PAULSEN: Chair, on what basis are you removing my member?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The shouting that was taking place on the virtual ...

Mr M N PAULSEN: ... [Inaudible.] ... shouting, even the ANC was shouting, even Minister ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have made a ruling on that. If you are not happy with that ... I have a made a ruling on that ...

Mr M N PAULSEN: You make unfair ruling ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I’m done with that


Mr M N PAULSEN: ... that’s why you make rules. you make rules


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I am done with that, hon Paulsen. Could you please sit down. Could you please take your seat. Could please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Hon members, I’m not going to entertain that. I have made a ruling. I am not going to entertain you. Otherwise, I’ll have to recuse you from the House.

Ms N P SONTI: Order, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I am not going to take it. Please, lower your hands.

Ms N P SONTI: Please, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No.


Ms N P SONTI: Please, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): We are going to continue ...

Mr M MANYI: Are you able to make a ... [Inaudible.] ... Chair? Is it conceivable that you can make everything?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Manyi, you cannot speak when you are not recognised, chief. Please stop what you are doing. I said I’m not going to entertain this.
AN HON MEMBER (Female): Hon Chairperson, this is very out of

order. You can’t just ... [Inaudible.]


Ms N P SONTI: ... [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, could you please leave the House!

Ms N P SONTI: Please, Chair. Recognise me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Sonti ...


Ms N P SONTI: I’m pleading with you, Chair. Please recognise


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Sonti ...


Ms N P SONTI: Please, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... the rules are very clear. Rule 67 says: Whenever the Presiding Officer addresses the House during a debate, any member then speaking or offering to speak must resume his or her seat and the Presiding Officer must be heard without interruption.
What you’re doing is totally opposite to that and you have

been very, very consistent with that kind of behaviour.


Hon members, Rule 70 says: If the Presiding Officer is of the opinion that a member is deliberately, as you are doing, contravening a provision of these rules, or that a member is disregarding the authority of the Chair, or that a member’s conduct is grossly disorderly, as you are doing, he or she may order the member to leave the chamber immediately for the remainder of the days. And I am requesting you to do that.

Hon Paulsen, you have been deliberately disturbing the House


Mr M N PAULSEN: Oh, I’m not disturbing. I want ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Sonti, you have been deliberately disturbing the House.

Hon Manyi, you have been doing the same.


Could you please leave the House! Could you please leave the House! Could you please leave the House!
Serjeant-at-Arms, could you please usher the hon members out of the Huse.

Hon Mthethwa, stop what you are doing. Hon Mthethwa, stop what you are doing, while members are leaving the House.

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: But, Chair, you are wrong. Chair, now it is a sin to raise a hand, for point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... [Inaudible.] … hon Mthethwa, it’s hon Shikwambana ...

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: People get removed for raising a hand ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shikwambana ...


Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: But, Chair, people get removed for raising a hand, for point of order? Why are you removing hon Manyi? What has he done? Chairperson, you are abusing us.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please leave the House!

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: But, what have they done, Chair, please?
Mr M MANYI: But, Chairperson, you are abusing your power. I was ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Please call the security ... [Interjections.] ... call the security to remove these members.

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Which members?

Mr M MANYI: We are quite happy to go. But you must know that you are abusing your powers. Hon Maotwe did not do anything. I might just make my flight, actually. You are abusing your power, Chairperson. You must know that. you are not chairing this meeting, you are bullying this meeting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Serjeant-at-Arms, could you please call security to usher these members out of the House.

AN HON MEMBER (Female): That is the highest order of ... [Inaudible.] ... from the Chair of this session ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shikwambana, please leave the House. [Interjections.] Hon Shikwambana,
please leave the House. please leave the House. Hon Shikwambana, please leave the House.

Serjeant-at-Arms, I request the security to come and usher out
... [Interjections.]


We still left with who?


Serjeant-at-Arms, please help hon Shikwambana out of the House. [Interjections.]

I’ve made a ruling, hon Shikwambana, please leave the Houses.



Hon members, shall we continue with the business of the day?


Hon Shikwambana ... hon Shikwambana, you seem not to be

co-operating with me, so, I have no alternative but to call the security to remove you. [Interjections.] Hon Shikwambana, I still persuade you to leave the House, or else I’ll call the security to do so for you, to help you out.

Order, hon members. order, hon members. I wish situations of
this nature could be avoided at all costs. it’s not good for
our Parliament. It’s totally not good. And ironically, it’s what we have just been talking about, members presenting on the podium here.

Shall we continue?


I was awaiting a declaration form the AIC. Oh, by the way ...
[Laughter] ... I’m sorry I’ve forgotten about you.

NFP was on the platform.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I think the next time I must bring myself a duvet here. [Laughter.]

But, Chairperson, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Where is the deterrent when it comes to consequence management?

And like I said before, you make a statement, unfounded, even if it’s not true, insult somebody, abuse them. And all that happens is this, you say I withdraw. But millions of people have seen it. Now, do you think that it’s fair? It’s not.
So, we need to put in rules in place that people will have to pay the ultimate price for it because let me give you an ideal example, you’ll send somebody out today and tomorrow they back. So, where is the deterrent, Chairperson? There’s no deterrent.

And that is why this House, which supposed to conduct itself in a dignified manner, becomes what it is. And people send us messages while we’re sitting in there: Look at this circus.
These are the words that they send to us.


So, I think we must not only amend these rules, but the consequences must speak to the crime. It has to. It’s the only way you’re going to deter people.

The NFP supports this. Thank you very much.


Mr T LOATE: Chair, the report is about holding this Executive accountable, threatening, parliamentary oversight and improving the accountability mechanisms ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members ...
AN HON MEMBER. ... To hear that EFF members are making noise, no.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, what’s wrong now? Please don’t do that, you are disturbing the House. Please proceed hon member.

Mr T LOATE: ... This report also covers issues of legislative and policy reform. Criminal prosecutions, disciplinary actions, recovery of stolen funds and remedial action. All of these shortcomings are an indictment on the functioning of this House up to this point.

This House failed to take forward the earnest plea of Madiba in his final speech to Parliament in 1999, to reform our electoral law. Firstly, it failed to do so, in spite of the Speaker appointing the Independent Practice Governor Panel in 2006 and receiving its recommendations. Second, it failed to go forward with the recommendations of the High-Level Panel led by Kgalema Motlanthe and again appointed by the Speaker to address the issue of electoral reform.

The High-Level Panel showed on page 565 of the report published in 2017 that the sequestration of MPs is the
elephant in the room that is crying out for us to deal with it. So, will it be all fine words and no action again? Will the Electoral Act remain in force and ensure that MPs in the National Assembly continue to be put in their place so that accountability as demanded by the commission never happens. If Parliament does not function, democracy cannot function, and corruption cannot be fought.

We now have the supplementary report, which shows the willingness of the National Assembly to improve its oversight and accountability functions. It provides a roadmap for the implementation of the recommendations of the Commission on State Capture to prevent the recurrence of state capture, corruption and fraud and to maintain the integrity and credibility of state institutions and state-owned enterprises, SOEs.

It is going to be pie in the sky, will MPs keep their oath or solemn promise to be loyal to the Republic of South Africa and to obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other laws of the Republic? That is a hope that we very much wish and pray for. We hope that this House will follow its own rules and give an image. I thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, it is in the best interests of democracy that, when it comes to the behaviour of elected representatives, what we call consensus among like- minded people is simply the best. The idea should not be to punish. There must be consequences, and they must be blunt. It has to be by consensus. I am very glad that the powers and rights of the Chairperson have been strengthened, because that is what we need.

We have also seen that because of this peer group, let’s say camaraderie, even the African National Congress felt that the punishments imposed on the EFF were too harsh and too severe. Aljam’ah also felt that it should rather be suspended. Be that as it may, I think it is very important that the members of the committee include all political parties because that was the trend in the Sixth Parliament. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson.


Mr Q R DYANTYI: Thank you House Chair. I think ...


... ubiza iANC.

Chairperson, can you hear me?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Dyantyi, can you just hold? Hon Ndlozi, what is your point of order?
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, I apologise for the inconvenience. I had some network problems. Would you be so kind as to allow us to make a declaration on this discussion, please? Please bear that in mind.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Dr Ndlozi, the hon Paulsen had the opportunity - and how shall I put it – reserved a comment. So that was an opportunity for the EFF. It would be double dipping if I were to allow you to speak, hon Ndlozi. The ANC.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: House Chair ...



... le ngxelo siyizisayo apha ye ...



... Joint Rules, ...

... iinjongo zayo kukubuyisela isidima seNdlu yoWiso-mthetho yeSizwe ifane neNdlu yoWiso-mthetho yeSizwe. Iyeke ukuthi xa uyibona ibonakale ngokungathi kusepotsoyini okanye embarheni, kwajuliwe. Siza nengxelo apha eza kulungisa ukuba le Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho yeSizwe ibenesidima kwaye sibuyise ...


... that decorum.

The long overdue amendments to the Joint Rules of Parliament are necessary in terms of restoring the dignity and decorum of the Joint Sittings and ensure the purpose of Joint Sittings achieves its objectives.

The ambiguity caused by the lack of detail that prevailed in existing rules not only made it difficult for Presiding Officers but allowed for different interpretation to prevail, often, consciously advanced because of gaps. Therefore, the ANC is extremely pleased that in a quorate meeting of Joint Rules Committee on the 1st of December 2023, we were able to make the necessary amendments to Chapters One and Two of the Joint Rules.
With regard to Part One of Chapter One, of the Definitions, this has historically been an extremely weak chapter due to the lack of definitions that are required, in particular rules that assistant a Presiding Officer to act without any ambiguity.

Joint Sittings have since 2014 been targeted for disruptions given the audience that prevailed at the time. The definitions have been significantly strengthened by this report incorporating provisions from both the NA and NCOP rules into the Joint Rules.

As for Part B of Chapter One, Sources of Authority and Application, this is an entirely new insertion. It is intended to reinforce what was missing in the Joint Rules, both in terms of defining the sources of authority and defining who is entitled to the authority, and in terms of its application, which is often a point of contention. It also commits members to strict compliance with the Joint Rules.

The second section is about unforeseen eventualities. This has been strengthened greatly. This now includes some of the following: Directives, rulings, conventions, practices and
contempt, the kinds of things you would not see in the rules but are practices or conventions that apply in Parliament.

The amended joined rules allows for the Presiding Officer to submit a report on an incident to the joint rules committee for the Joint Rules committee to take a decision.

On powers and privileges, the proposal is that a joint committee of powers and privileges be established with expanded powers. Currently, there is only a Joint Subcommittee on Powers and Privileges. And this is limited to policy formulation only. A joint powers and privilege would empower to deal with misconduct. The kind that we have seen yesterday, the kind that we have seen today. Section on public participation has also been greatly strengthened.

With regards to Chapter Two of Joint Sittings of both Houses, amongst others, there is an important new insertion. No member may interrupt the President whilst delivering his or her State of the Nation Address except to call for attention to a point of order in terms of Joint Rules(13)(s) or a question of privilege in terms of Joint Rule (13) (a).
The adopted rules for Virtual and Hybrid Sittings have been inserted in the report that we are submitting here. All the enjoined sitting and rules of debate have been greatly strengthened, especially the section of conduct of members 15(b) Gross Disorderly Conduct, and 15(F), which has been added under this subsection and qualified as well.

With regards to Part Two of Chapter Two the Rules of Debate 15(s), Points of Orders, have been completely rewritten with contents from both NA and NCOP Rules. With regards to Chapters Three, Four and Five, we are proposing that the Joint Rules Committee undertake a workshop in the first week of January.

The ANC fully supports the amendments to Chapters One and Two and looks forward to completing the amendments to the remaining chapters, which are very important. And we therefore think Chairperson, the circus we have seen ...


... le potsoyi ibisenzeka izolo nale iqhubekayo, sithi ngoku iNdlu yoWiso-mthetho yeSizwe mayibuyele kwisidima sayo ingafani nepotsoyi efuna ukwenziwa ngaMalungu ePalamente.
Siyayixhasa le ngxelo. Enkosi.
Division demanded.


The House divided.

House Chairperson Mr M L D Ntombela announced that the Speaker had determined that, in accordance with the Rules, a manual voting procedure would be used and that the whips would conduct a headcount of members in the chamber and on the virtual platform for the purpose of ascertaining quorum and voting.

A quorum being present in terms of Rule 98(1), voting commenced.

AYES – 297: (ANC – 204; DA – 70; IFP – 8; FF Plus – 7; ACDP –

4; Good – 1; NFP – 1; Cope – 1; Al Jama-ah –1).

NOES – 23: (EFF - 23).


Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party you are invited to the platform. Hold on just a second. What’s your point of order, hon member?

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, I am just enquiring before the farewell speeches. There are a number of outstanding judgments to be delivered by the Chair before the farewell speeches, and I wonder when that is to happen, since we are about to have the farewell speeches. Thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will do that hon Swart. I definitely will do that. Hon Deputy Chief Whip, you may proceed.




much, hon House Chairperson, once again, we have come to that time of the year when the National Assembly is rising. It was not easy for us to do our work, but we managed to do it under the circumstances, even though our Parliament was burnt down last year, January. As a multi-party Parliament, our committees managed to sit, to meet, do their oversight work, process legislations and, we’re able to hold the executive to
account. We wouldn’t have done it without our rules of virtual and hybrid platforms.

Hon House Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity. I know that farewell speeches are not meant to discuss many things, but to thank the hon members whom we worked with well throughout the year. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Chief Whips Forum for the work that we do behind the scenes where we consult each other and reach consensus. And also, the NAPC for the decision that they take with regard to the parliamentary programme, not forgetting to thank the presiding officers for always tolerating our childish behaviour in the House.

Hon House chairperson, we wouldn’t have been able to do our work without the guidance of the NA table led by Mr Xaso and his team. We want to appreciate their guidance and their advice always. Also, thank the Parliamentary Protection Services for ensuring that the House is not always disrupted. They are doing a very great work, the South African Police Services for ensuring our safety in the parliamentary precinct, our political staff members and our leaders in Parliament, including the Chief Whip of the Majority Party who is the chairperson of the Chief Whip Forum. As you go home,
let us be safe. Let us not do what I wouldn’t do. Let’s enjoy our Merry Christmas and prosperous New Year with our families. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, 2023 has been an incredibly eventful and often, at times a difficult year. As the country still grapples with recovering from the global pandemic devastation, we too, as a Parliament have been trying to get back to normal parliamentary business. The fire took us back multiple steps. We are yet to find a way to conduct Parliament’s business in a way that is accessible to the public. May we never forget that this is their house. This is their institution, and we remain accountable to them who elected us. As we wrap up the sixth term, we should reflect on how we have championed the issues facing ordinary South Africans the most.

Intswela-ngqesho, indlala, ulwaphulo-mthetho ucimi-cimi wombane, urhwaphilizo, zizinto ezitshisa ibunzi ebantwini bethu.

We must make sure that we spend the remainder of this term challenging these issues head on and find ways to bring relief to ordinary South Africans who look to us.

Allow me to wish all of our members and our parliamentary staff. I do want to say here at this point that we do appreciate the work that our parliamentary staff do in the background under very difficult circumstances at times. Allow me to wish our members and our parliamentary staff for a restful Christmas break. May you have the much-needed time with your loved ones and let us spare a thought for the over
30 million South Africans, who will be battling hunger and poverty during this period. Let their plights and their cause be what motivates us to do the work that we do here in this House.

As much as we will vehemently disagree with one another, we are not enemies. We are opponents, and there’s a stark difference. So, let’s bear that in mind, and I, on behalf of the DA, wish you all well.


Wanga uThixo anganani neentsapho zenu, anigqume, anikhusele side siphinde sibonane kunyaka ozayo.
Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Chairperson, the president of the EFF, CIC, all the leadership, the EFF wishes South Africans, including members of this House, regardless of political affiliations, a safe, enjoyable holiday, and your families. May God protect you and may Allah protect you. Chairperson as the EFF, we are saying we are very much disappointed about the treatment we find in this House. We as the EFF, we’re saying...

...ngonyaka ozayo uma sesiphethe le mithetho abayenzayo bazenzela bona ngoba abasebenzisi Umthethosisekelo. Siyi EFF sikwazile ukuthi sivikele abantwana ...


...or all the Palestinians who are abused and killed by. Israelis.

Siyi EFF, siphethe e-Johannesburg, sivikela abantu base Johannesburg nase-Kurhuleni, sizoqhubeka njalo sivikele abantu baseThekwini. Singu EFF sizokwenza isiqinisekiso ukuthi sizoba

...hold to account...



...bona laba be-ANC abazenza kwangathi bayanivikela kanti bama nayo i-DA banicindezele basebenze ngani. Singu EFF sithi sizoshintsha izimpilo zenu.


Twenty-twenty four is our 1994 and the EFF is ready to undo the damage caused by the apartheid and the outgoing ANC government.

Thina sizonivikela.


Arrive alive!



Ningaphuzi, nishayela.


Be protected. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, I am sorry that I am not in the House at the moment, but I think you realise the circumstances. It’s a pity that we must end our 2023 term in the way that we did, but I suppose that is the tenets of democracy, and that is what our founding fathers fought so hard for. The right for everybody to be heard and that’s right you had provided to all members in the House.

Having said that, hon Chairperson, on behalf of hon Velenkosini Hlabisa, the president of the IFP and leader of the IFP in the National Assembly, I want to also echo the sentiments of thanking the hon Speaker, all the presiding officers, the admin team led so ably by hon Xaso and is in for the assistance that they've given us throughout the year. It’s been a difficult year with us still having hybrid sittings, and I hope hybrid sittings will soon become a thing of the past where we can find an interim solution for the new parliamentarians that come in in the 7th Parliament.

I just trust on behalf of the IFP that all of us have a peaceful holiday and I must reiterate the position of the IFP that we advocate for the two-state solution in the Israel Palestine area. We condemn the atrocities that are taking place from all sides because human lives are human lives, and
we trust that peace will prevail upon them, and that good sense will prevail for children and women not to be harmed in the way they are.

So, on behalf of the IFP, we want to wish everybody a festive period, a safe Christmas, and a happy New Year. And let’s hope that we all take a week or two just to recharge our batteries and come back refreshed in 2024. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, we had three very difficult and challenging prior years. By 2023, although we didn’t have restrictions of COVID. We still had a lot of challenges and especially because the pace of the world restored to where it was before COVID-19, but it even became faster, more difficult because of the normalization and everything had to get back to normal, and Parliament is no exception.

Obviously, because we still do not have a seat of Parliament because our Parliament burned down. It’s also a challenge and I wish to thank on behalf of the FF Plus all members, for this year and for making it a success. We did a lot, and we left a lot up until very late and we worked very hard, now in this
fourth quarter. But I do want to thank everybody, especially the staff, parliamentary staff for all their sacrifices.

House Chairperson, we as politicians neglect our families, our loved ones. And I hope that we can all find time this holiday to spend time with our loved ones to rest and to have a safe and blessed Christmas. On behalf of the FF Plus, please drive safely. Please be safe. I won’t do what you are going to do Deputy Chief Whip, that is dangerous, but let us all enjoy and rest before we are going to have a challenging 2024 with an election.

And in this House Chairperson, we do debate robustly, but I do want to reiterate what the hon Chief of the Opposition said, we are opponents, not enemies. We work together and I do believe that we are here, most of us for a common goal to make the lives and the livelihoods of South Africans better and let’s go ahead with that next year. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chairperson, 2023 has been the most difficult year of my life. On the morning of the 25th of January, I lost my precious and loving wife for 46 years. Mrs Lydia Meshoe, who passed away after a shot illness. She left me with three amazing children who loved the Lord just like
their parents, and three wonderful grandchildren. My wife was a very dedicated and courageous woman who was full of grace. She was an international speaker for note, who travelled the world speaking in churches and at women’s conferences.

In 2014, she went even to Iraq to minister to abuse women in need of love and care. I am grateful to God who has given me the grace and strength to continue all this journey of life without her, who was my greatest supporter and motivator.

I also want to thank the President, the Speaker of Parliament, house chairpersons, leaders of parties, members of this House and parliamentary staff for their support and prayers through my difficult time. I particularly want to thank my colleagues in the ACDP, who prayed for me and gave me space and time to mourn the loss of my precious wife and partner in ministry.

House Chairperson, I also want to take this opportunity to urge every member of this House to seriously consider rejecting the 2022 amendments to the 2005 International Health Regulations that were approved on the 28th of May 2022 during the meeting of committee A at the World Health Assembly.
Finally, I wish all members a well-deserved rest over the recess period, and I further wish them and their families a blessed and peaceful Christmas and prosperous New Year.

I want to conclude, as the House Chairperson has requested, with a prayer of the ironic blessing. The Lord blesses you and keep you. The Lord makes his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lifts up his countenance upon you and give you peace. Shalom. The Lord blesses you. Thank you very much.

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, 2023 has been an extraordinary difficult year for South Africans. We have experienced rising food prices, the financial strain of high interest rates and low economic growth. South Africans are financially stressed, and many South Africans are in financial distress.

The number of unemployed people, especially young South Africans, has not produced ... [Inaudible.] ... this year’s, food insecure and trapped in deep poverty. Our worst year of load shedding has contributed to our economic crisis and has compounded the difficulties we have experienced.
So, as we end this year and enter what is meant to be the festive season, we must acknowledge that for many South Africans, the season will not be festive but will be stressful.

Despite all of these stresses, we wish all South Africans, a peaceful season. We truly hope that 2024 will bring new prospects for all South Africans, but especially for those who spend their days and nights worried about their families’ survival.

We wish our parliamentary colleagues a safe and restful break and we look forward to returning in the new year, ready to do the work needed to improve the lives of the people we are elected to serve. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, let me first of all acknowledge my conduct in this House, sometimes making people laugh, smile and clap and other times upsetting people. So, I want to say to you, see if I’ve offended anyone of you here, my apologies to you. It was all in a day’s work.

Let me also say this that the support that we’ve got from the hon speaker, the deputy speaker, who haven’t seen for a while,
I’m not sure why, the chairpersons, presiding officers, the chief whips.

And very importantly Mr Xaso and his entire team, whether you talk about members, facilities, you talk about the travel, you talk about them. Really extraordinary service I know, sometimes I put them under pressure at different times of the day, of the nights.

Let me also say to you that, the festive season is coming. The roads are not safe. If you want to drive, drive in the day, rest at night. When you want to drink, drink when you’re at home. I’m not going to tell you, not to drink but, I can tell you, it’s not about you, it’s about others conduct themselves on the road.

And South Africa is experiencing a high level of accidents, which is claiming many, many lives. We’ve lost a lot of our people in this very Parliament as well.

So, I want to wish each and every one of you, a joyous Christmas, a prosperous one. That you have a great festive season. And let us not forget those people that are hungry. Many, many people are sleeping on the streets and let us all
together pray for peace in the Middle East. Irrespective of who they are, let’s pray that they come together as one united nation, live side by side, happily. Let us believe that we can hope and pray for. I thank you all, thank you.

Mr T LOATE: House Chair, another year is done. Let me express many thanks to all those who welcomed me in this Chamber, especially the parliamentary staff. They were exceptionally good. And as for members, I can assure you that we have all strove hard in the interest of the people of our country. It is rewarding that we are at this point, looking forward to being with our families and friends over the festive season.

As I wish everybody well, let me indicate to this House that I will be returning to the Free State with a heavy heart. The kidnapping and murder of a 16-year-old girl, Machaka Radebe, in Bloomfontein, has left me shaken and left people of that city shocked. Criminals, from what the police told the bereaved family, are using WhatsApp calls, because they are encrypted and do not leave any trace on the phone or the network. In this way, gangs are able to plan and execute the entire crime like robberies, kidnapping, even murder.
Unfortunately, the 16-year-old Machaka happened not to be the only victim of recent kidnappings in Mangaung. Lesogo Mataung and Lerato Masiu, both young girls, respectively 22 and 23 years old have since gone missing and have not been found.
Police are unable to intercept conversations of criminals, because WhatsApp calls use Internet protocol addresses that can be changed frequently and are not linked to any specific location.

Having said so, I will be leaving for Bloemfontein unable to vent on how things have become so utterly dangerous and untenable. Thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, we have heard how hard the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development and so many other committees in Parliament worked. And I would like to congratulate all hon members for their work to try with public participation. I think the Sixth Parliament can be proud of all its hon members, and we need to reflect on that at this time of year.

The parliamentary staff did us proud at the Brics Forum and once again, we would like to wish them well. The presiding officers gave leadership to the nation, when it when it was
needed. There was, however, a blot on the nation at the 10th anniversary of the death of Nelson Mandela, when his grandson, Members of Parliament and honourable guests and Members of Parliament from Turkey, Malaysia, were prevented from laying wreaths at the statue for three hours in the hot sun. And that is why I voted against the Police Vote earlier today, as a sign of protest.

However, having said that, we know that the Archbishop of the Anglican Church has said that the aim is to kill 30 000 babies before Christmas. There is still 10 000 to go. So, those who stand with Israel, we don’t wish them well over Christmas.
Thank you very much.

The SPEAKER: Hon House Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity. Hon members, before we adjourn, I think I should say a few words. We have reached the end of the last full year of the Sixth Parliament. Next year, South Africa will hold its Seventh democratic election. Democracy is an ideal for which many died, but it is also made real by our actions as citizens and public representatives.

This year, we have indeed advanced the democratic project. We have passed several Bills, which will have a lasting impact on
our society, which will lead to accelerated economic growth, poverty alleviation and a fair and prosperous nation. The National Assembly passed the National Health Insurance Bill, whose intent is to expand health services to all. The Basic Education Amendment Bill will strengthen the support government can give to our children. The climate Change Amendment Bill will ensure that South Africa can play its part in combating climate change. While you may disagree on some of the details of these Bills, I’m convinced that, as a collective, we all believe in the need for fundamental change and progress.

We have also stepped up our pursuit of accountability. Committees have been meeting on a continuous basis to solicit reports on government activities and worked towards resolving challenges with service delivery. Members, of course, pose questions to Ministers almost daily. This year, the Rules Committee adopted measures to address delays in answering those questions.

As the voice of the people, we have also expressed our opinions about pressing issues both at home and on the international front. It is painful to see that violence remains an everyday experience for many. The debate we held on
the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children Campaign last week was a stark reminder of how far we must travel. I am however in no doubt that this Parliament remains a steadfast trend to the vulnerable and oppressed in our country and abroad.

Next year will bring further change. The rebuilding of the National Assembly will continue apace within the targets we have set. This will go on, even as we make do with alternative venues for our sittings. We will also have to make provision for the incoming Parliament, bearing in mind the requirements of the Electoral Amendment Act.

On a lighter note, I have noticed a renewed tendency for electioneering in the House. This is understandable, but we must not make promises we cannot keep. However, I do wish parties all the best in their campaigns.

To close on behalf of the presiding officers, I would like to express my gratitude, firstly, to the Chief Whip and to all party leaders; to the Whippery, particularly for their support; and to the Programme Committee, which has assisted me and guided me at some of the worst of times, as I was battling to find my feet in this environment. I must also thank the
Table Staff, led by Mr Xaso, and the Secretary to Parliament for all his efforts.

I must finally thank all the hon members for their contribution and commitment to our democracy. Hon members. Let us use our brief interlude to rest, to spend time with our families, to continue to provide guidance to our young ones, and lastly, please be safe. Don’t drink and drive. Let us continue to condomise and exercise safe sex. This is usually one of those periods where people can be very reckless with their lives, but remember, only last week, we were discussing issues of the impact of HIV and Aids on our society and on our communities. So, please, be safe and let us continue to respect one another and continue to love one another. May peace be upon all of us. Come back in January, as we are, and hopefully without any casualties. Thank you very much. I appreciate the support you have given me. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, before we adjourn, can I draw your attention to the ruling?
Unparliamentary remarks by members during the debate on the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill: On 26 October 2023,
during the debate on the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill, Mr S Swart, MP, rose on a point of order on the remarks made by the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Ms PCP, Majodina, MP. At the time, I indicated I would study the record and revert to the House to rule thereon.

Before the ruling, I wish to remind members that, as members of this House, we enjoy the privilege of freedom of speech. This is an essential right in that it enables us to raise and pursue matters in the public interest. This privilege is only limited by the Rules of Parliament. The Rules, in turn, are not intended to constrain members, but rather to ensure that reasoned debate occurs.

Having studied the unrevised Hansard, I would like, to rule as follows: Hon Swart rose on a point of order, alleging that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party spoke death over Ms Sukers, when she was speaking. The impugned remark of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party was: “You are dead yourself.” It was an interjection made as a retort to assertions made by Ms Sukers during her speech. Ms Sukers made a number of assertions during her speech about the ANC, as a political party, including: “We say that you are a dying party, pushing a dead Bill. I say, let the dead bury the dead, and as the ACDP, we
proclaim a jubilee for education. And while you bury your dead, we will work with and work for the living.”

The use of the pronoun and collective noun “we” and “as the ACDP”, respectively shows that Ms Sukers was speaking on behalf of a collective, which is her party and would be understood so by any objective observer. The retort by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party to her remarks about the ANC should be understood in that context. As a response to the assertions that she was making against the party, the remarks were not meant as a threat of violence directed at the member, intended to insult or abuse her personality, or impugn her integrity or dignity. I therefore do not find the remarks to be unparliamentary. Thank you very much.

The House adjourned at 20:11.