Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 13 Sep 2023


No summary available.


Watch here: Plenary 

The House met at 15:00.


The House Chairperson (Mr C T Frolick) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The only item on today's Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster 3 Governance There are four supplementary questions on each question parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on an adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose.
This is being done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform the members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer and in allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, amongst others, has been applied If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technical difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.


Question 458:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chairperson, the response to the question is that the 2023/24 financial year is that, R37,4 billion would have been paid.
This compromises the cost of ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister will you just hold that please? Our apologies for that. Hon Siwela will you just mute your microphone and if it happens again, we will just simply switch off the microphone of the member on the virtual platform? Please proceed, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The 2023/24 financial year and an amount of R37,4 billion would be paid as part of the wage agreement and this comprises the cost of translating the non-pensionable cash allowance that was paid to the public servants at a rate of 4,2% as well as the top up of 3,3% nominal increases. For 2024/25 an amount that would be spent would amounts to
R25,4 billion and this is made up of projected CPI for the financial year 2024/25 estimated at 4,5% hence the total cost is lesser than 2023/2024 financial year. Thank you.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Hon Chair,in its 2019 manifesto, the ANC promised:

To ensure that government has the capacity, resources, and people to serve citizens effectively.

Over the past five years they have done the exact opposite from what they promised. Last week, we found out that the ANC is planning to increase VAT by 2% and to cut funding for critical food security programmes, policing and infrastructure investments. They are planning to do this all in the context of the worst cost of living crisis in a generation. Rampant crime and as critical infrastructure such as railways and electricity provision collapse all around us. We just heard that stage seven load shedding is on the way.

At the very same time that the ANC is punishing the poorest of the poor through budget cuts and higher VAT. They have granted, as we just heard from the Minister, a R37 billion salary increase in the public sector. As the Minister told us, funding this increase will require even more cuts to critical frontline services, including education and health care. Hon Minister my question is simple, how do you sleep at night knowing that you are increasing VAT and slashing critical services to millions of poor South Africans in order to give a R37 billion salary increase to the deployed cadres who have collapsed public service delivery? Thank you,

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House Chair, in as much as I do not deal with VAT and all that has been raised, but I would want to say that the settlement for negotiations is an agreed settlement with all unions in the Public Service. We stick by what we have agreed with them in terms of the good management practices in the first place, but also our resolve in terms of the Labour Relations Act of 1995, to conduct a space of labour relations environment that is stable and that is not oppressive to employees. Therefore, every other thing that the hon member has raised, he himself is saying he heard it. I do not know about it. Thank you, hon Chair.

Ms T MGWEBA: House Chair, hon Minister what are the implications of reducing the public sector wage in relation to the state capacity and capability, recognising the need for the state to build internal capabilities to provide various services considering insourcing essential service delivery functions? I thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chair, let me first indicate that provision of services to the public requires a stable environment, as I have earlier indicated. That stable environment requires us to ensure that we create it in the first place. But secondly, if and I want to emphasise the word if. If there has to be any cuts, those cuts would have to have been looked closely upon to ensure that services to the people are not compromised because we would not be paying public servants good salaries for them to cut the services that they should provide to the people. We need to strike a good balance between ensuring good public service space that can ensure that there are good public services to the public. Therefore, that balancing line requires the two departments and other involved departments to come together and look at the measures that would have to be taken and I am underlining if ... [Inaudible.] 08:27 – 14:59. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, Minister is this a hefty wage bill that we have in the country in the public sector sustainable in the long run? But more importantly, Minister the Public Service Commission has raised concerns about the quality of officials that we are employing in the public sector. Will you consider recommending to your colleagues that we have an independent body responsible for employment or appointment of all officials in the public sector in the country? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chair, in as much as that is three questions and therefore if I do not answer all of them, the member will understand. Firstly, the so called having I do not know what is it measured against. The heavy or big budget for payment of salaries to public servants and therefore it becomes difficult to say it is heavy or not heavy when you do not know what it is measured or compared against. But to take the question forward in terms of the forward movement, the state, in fact, government is busy having engaged with the NSG which is the National School of Government, in working measures to capacitate public servants where they do not have capacity. But remember, hon members, that before any appointment is made, there would have been an advert that specifies what criteria of a person is

needed to fulfil a particular responsibility and therefore again, we need not be very blanket around the capacity because there would be, yes, those few that would lack capacity who would then be attended to through the NSG programmes. There would be those who know what they do and in fact, looking at the R1,2 million public servants serving the 60 million almost people, for me we have a public service that is hard at work. Thank you.

Ms H DENNER: House Chair, hon Minister compensation of employees has been one of government's fastest growing expenditure items in recent years, comprising roughly a third of total consolidated expenditure. One could say that government has created a monster called the Public Sector Wage Bill and that very monster is now rearing up to bite its master and those who are going to pay the price for that are the citizens and especially the taxpayers of this country. So, Minister what I would like to know is the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech, announced a 3,3% annual wage increase over the medium term, yet recently government had to concede at 7,5% and the hon member before me mentioned that this is not sustainable and that is exactly that. It is not sustainable. So, what measures, if any, does your department have plans to mitigate possible future industrial action such

as public sector wage strikes that we have seen in the past that has turned violent and that has even led to the loss of life of citizens of this country? Thank you, House Chair.


Chair, let me upfront indicate that to say we have created a monster in the salary negotiations in this country becomes a bit of an insult, because one, the absence of this that I had earlier said that are throwing statements without saying. As compared to this, which would have been international or national or regional norm, it becomes an insult for me to say we are in a space where we have created a monster with the fastest growing salaries. Those salaries are negotiated openly, fairly, in a transparent way and are settled based on what the state can afford at a particular time, looking at several factors that contribute the CPI and all else the improvement of quality of life for any salary negotiations.

Therefore, to come around and say it is a monster, is to create again unnecessary animosity against the public, pitting the public service, against government and I do not think responsible leaders would handle matters of national importance in that manner. We need to ensure that our

decisions, our comments or everything we do is more about building a South Africa that is prosperous for all. Thank you.

Question 486:


EVALUATION: Good afternoon and thank you very much, House Chair, for this opportunity. Our Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has commenced with the research to produce a 30-year-review report, which will be presented, tagged as government’s integrated evaluation of South Africa’s progress since transitioning into democracy and governance from 1994 for the approach of the review, includes analysis of the social, economic and political trends and structural changes to understand the impact of government policies and programmes in improving the quality of life of citizens.

We want to review and encourage engagements amongst citizens as well so that all our social partners can then now be part of this 30-year-review so that when we talk about democracy, all of us can be talking about it from ownership. This research for the review is based on the objectives of the National Development Plan and our vision 2030, and of course, all the other Medium-Term Strategic Framework that took place within that 30-year period. This is done to make sure that the

review should be able to address the existing long-term plan for the country and enable a reflection on the priorities of the current administration. We envisage that we should be done with the review by December 2023.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister, may I also request you that when you do the follow- up questions that you switch on your video feed, please. It will make things a bit easier for us here in the Chamber and if there should be a problem with your connectivity, I will indicate to you that you may switch it off. The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon Mothapo.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson hon Minister and colleagues, many have argued, that the democratic government has not advanced fundamental transformation without recognising the impact of colonialism and apartheid. What reflections, hon Minister, can the Minister make in relation to this assertion? I thank you.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much for the follow up. I hope that you can see me because I am going to come.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, we still cannot see your video feed.


EVALUATION: Okay, because I’ve switched it on. So, I’m not sure why I am not ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, please proceed. We will look from outside and see if there could be a problem, but please continue.


EVALUATION: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson, and thank you very much for the follow-up question. I do not believe that it is a correct assertion to say that the democratic government has not advanced fundamental transformation without recognising the impact of colonialism and apartheid. The question that has just been asked. In my view, I do believe that this democratic government that has started in 1994 has done a lot as it relates to transformation. Before, we didn’t even talk about the issue ... [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Sorry, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Akenimeni ukuphapha kancane. Cha, Sihlalo ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha asikwazi ukukhuluma umuntu singamboni ukuthi ungubani, kuphi, kanjani. Ngiyabonga.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat, hon member, I’ve made a ruling on this matter. Order! I’ve made a ruling on the matter. Please proceed, hon Minister.


EVALUATION: Alright, it looks like it was from my side. They’ve just shown me what I was doing wrong. Okay, thank you very much and I am sorry for that. I do believe that it is not true to suggest that indeed this democratic government has not advanced fundamental transformation. There are significant changes that have taken place over the three decades of democracy, which are reflected in the political, economic, and human development indicators of our country. For example, when we introduced in 1994, the RDP White Paper, it correctly anticipated a long and arduous process required to undo the deep-rooted legacy of apartheid. Currently, when we talk about South Africa, it is rated amongst the top 15 countries

globally respected for gender equality and impressive women’s representation in public institutions. So, when we talk about the issue of representation and transformation, we cannot say that truthfully so and say that this current democratic government hasn’t been able to do anything. We have been able to increase indeed the number of people that are participating in the economy and that we have really been able to see that there are a number of women and also a number of black people and Africans in particular and coloured people that have got more access than before. So, transformation has taken place. I do not agree that there is any way that we would truthfully say that this democratic dispensation hasn't brought any transformation. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mnu Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo ...



 ... in its 2019 Election Manifesto, the ANC committed itself to the goal of a capable state that operates through co- operative governance and partnership building. But this government has not achieved that. So, if we are talking about reviewing things after 30 years of democracy, it is glaringly clear that decentralisation of governance and delivery must be

a key pillar of the much-needed reform and transformation to promote recovery, growth and development, especially where competent provincial and local governments can assist to address national government’s failures and constraints. Why then Minister, has the Presidency dismissed the partnership call by Cape Town Mayor Geordin Hill-Lewis for a Joint Working Committee on Rail Management Devolution so that the city can pick up the slack of Metrorail to serve rail commuters directly and better?

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson on the point of order, according to Rule 142,7 the follow-up question asked must come straight from the original question or from the follow-up of the Minister. This looks like a new question altogether. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You see, the issue is that the original question is framed very broadly. So, I will allow the Minister to respond as far as she can. However, when it gets into the detail of it, it surely resorts under a different Ministry, that is the Minister of Transport.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and indeed,

you are right to say that this would have been better asked to the Minister of Transport. However, as it relates to co- operative governance, I do believe that we believe that if we are able to ensure that whatever it is that we are doing from planning to implementation, it should be done in an integrated way. We do believe that would then now be able to allow us to
... see more effective solutions for whatever it is that we put in place. For example, the Presidential Co-ordinating Council, do consist, of course, Ministers, the President, and Premiers, and at some point, we used to even have city mayors, we can call them that. So, we don’t believe that anything that seeks to say we cannot promote an integrated way of doing things. Definitely, we will be able to assist this country.
So, integrated implementation and planning of all the things that we do, whether you are a municipality, or your government has to be promoted if we really must promote the issue of co- operative governance. That is my view on the issue. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, let us remind you when you say people have benefitted, and are participating in the economy. Those people are the ones that are closer to the ruling party. Then, Minister, the reality of the past 25 years is that the rate of joblessness has

ballooned. Crime is beyond the level at which police can properly control. Poverty has intensified amongst the black people, particularly black women, who do not have a reliable supply of energy. Attempts of land reform have all failed.
Would your review of the failures of the past 29 years include propositions for radical changes in the constitutional and legislative framework intended to bring about tangible changes in the lives of the people. Secondly, what mechanisms does the government have to deal with grossly incompetent Ministers such as Mr Gordhan and Mr Cele? Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let me just remind you that a follow-up question is restricted to one question only, and the Minister is under no obligation to answer all those questions. The Minister will thus decide what she wants to respond to.


EVALUATION: I choose not to answer that question. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Ms M E SUKERS: Thank you, Chair, Minister, our country experienced a wave of social unrest in July 2021 with over 350 people killed. We are currently facing serious social and

environmental challenges that contribute to the negative outlook of many South Africans. Their lived experience is the escalation of crime, high unemployment, and systemic dysfunction at all levels of government. How does the Minister plan to embrace this in her programme to review 30 years of democracy, the lack of transformation in addressing the root causes of ineffective security institutions, poor oversight and consequence management and weak state institutions that have little capacity for execution and the implementation of government plans? Thank you.


EVALUATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, the department has been working hard in ensuring that the bill that would deal with all the issues that have been raised here will be passed in Parliament very soon. We are planning to ensure that we deal with the issue of institutionalisation of planning because we have realised that lack of institutionalised planning does become a problem. We cannot have one department out there that deals with planning, monitoring and evaluation, but we need to build ... a machinery in all departments, in all spheres of government that would then work with this department of ours, to ensure that the institutionalisation of planning does take place so

that when we monitor and evaluate progress and performance of different institutions, we do it coming from one point which would then be guided by the NDP, of course.

We also do believe that immediately when we finished doing that we then now need to look at the process of repurposing our department as well, so that we do not solely exist for performance and monitoring and evaluation. But we are also given an opportunity or we are given a platform where we can deal directly with some of the things that are in the NDP, especially as it relates to developmental issues, not only on the country side or on domestic level but also tapping into the international developmental agencies. That should then be able to assist us to deal with the developmental agenda that we have of our country, which definitely be able to deal with the issues that the hon Minister has asked. So once the bill has been passed, we do believe that we will be having what it takes to be able to institutionalise planning, but we will also be given an opportunity to take measures for nonperformance as it relates to those plannings we would have made, especially the long-term planning and the medium-term planning as well. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, I just want to remind you that the follow-up questions must be posed in a manner that is in line with the responsibility of the Minister. For instance, the Minister indicated on a follow-up question that she is not going to reply to it and allow that for her not to reply to it because it’s not her competence to decide on the firing and deployment of other Ministers. She, herself, is appointed by the President. So that responsibility of appointment to Cabinet or being relieved from Cabinet duties doesn’t reside with this Minister.

Question 494:

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Chairperson, according to section 154 of the Constitution the national and provincial government by legislative and other means must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs to exercise their powers and perform their functions.

The Department of Co-operative Governance together with other government departments and entities continue to support municipalities, including eThekwini. The following are some of the measures put in place and continuing being implemented in

eThekwini. A political and technical co-ordinating committee has been established set up or led by the Ministry of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs together with Water and Sanitation to co-ordinate the planning, monitoring and reporting of key implementation measures to address the state of water and sanitation infrastructure in the municipality. The action plan developed, include, amongst others, the National Treasury for the city support programme is building institutional capacity to sustain improvement on water and sanitation management.

The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, deploys resources in areas of scoping specification development in support of water and sanitation supply chain management processes, which was identified as a gap. Misa also conducted capacity assessment within the water and sanitation unit of the municipality.

The Department of Water and Sanitation have committed to with regard to Wastewater Treatment Works focus on operation and maintenance and provide the necessary support thereto. There is also a pending memorandum of understanding, MOU, between Umgeni Water and eThekwini Municipality in which Umgeni Water will undertake certain water and sanitation infrastructure

work on behalf of the municipality. On the side of the municipality, they have committed doing their part in the implementation of the programmes as approved in line with the Medium-Term Revenue and Expenditure Framework providing services and prudently managing the municipal purse. Lastly, to ensure that the municipality recovers money owed for rates and services provided the city continues to enforce credit control measures as required by the credit control and debt management policy.

The executive mayor of the municipality has also engaged to the worst being Umhlanga and Masquerade Association with discussions seems to be yielding positive results. Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Minister, even the section 154 intervention has now keep up a sneak where councilors are not even willing and prepared to meet with the MEC. More importantly, eThekwini sits with the R8 billion debt, 54% of water loss. I am told the cash reserves are depleted. So, the problem is bigger than just water and sanitation and more importantly, hon Deputy Minister, those that even paying are saying they are not going to pay and they are going to hold the payment. What further measures can your department put in

place to ensure there is accountability because this is going on for many years and did little or no progress that has been made? Thank you, Chairperson.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): As with other municipalities, we are monitoring the situation in eThekwini continuously. In fact, we have recently agreed with the Minister to undertake a visit the municipality and this has also been agreed with the executive mayor of the municipality to the extent there will be challenges require resolution processes that I have indicated earlier are dealing directly with the issues that have been raised to ensure that we are able to resolve the issues.

If it is that additional measures are required, we would be able to institute those measures. But at this point we are confident that the current measures in place will yield the necessary results. Thank you very much.

Mr G G MPUMZA Deputy Minister, the user-pay principle is not understood correctly by the public. What are the implications of not upholding the user-pay principle for the government revenue service delivery? Thank you, House Chair.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Chairperson, I think it is important to appreciate the way in which our municipality is generating revenue in particular for services such as water, sanitation and electricity that are based on the ability to recover revenues from those service providers to the understanding that municipalities buy water from bulk water service and provide and provide that water to communities, and therefore, need to be able to recover revenue in that regard. The same applies to electricity municipalities generate revenue on the basis of sales of electricity to communities. But this is not electricity they necessarily generate themselves.

By far, the municipality is procured these from certain instances, independent power producers but in most instances from Eskom. And therefore, municipalities have an obligation to meet their requirements in terms of the service providers that they have. Therefore, it is important that our residents understand that to sustain our municipalities and their ability to deliver service is dependent on them recovering revenue and being able to deploy this accordingly to ensure repairs and maintenance to ensure that they are able to buy and sell services. But also deal with other services that require across subsidisation. Thank you very much.

Ms E R J SPIES: Hon Deputy Minister, the eThekwini Metro Municipality was supposed to be a big and of effective governance instead it is the hot battle for political turmoil with no party holding the majority because is in chaos and in action.

While the ANC manifesto pledge fiscal responsibility, we see the municipalities squandering R11 million on parties while the financial situation crumbles. Rates increase, yet service stagnate leaving residents in the dark. The ANC vow to increase services delivery but eThekwini faces a dire service delivery crisis. The invocation of section 154 demonstrate the extent of this failure as residents withhold payments process. Deputy Minister, in the light of the glaring discrepancies between your manifesto promises and the current situation, has your department assist the impact of the rates boycott? And have you considered increasing your intervention before the next inflation and pricing increase to address these failures?


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Well firstly, I think it is important, hon Chairperson, to note that, in fact, there is a process currently underway in the country where a particular political party seems to be behind particular rates boycotts and this

has been witnessing amongst others, in eThekwini Nasner and other municipalities. And this is tantamount to a silent coup by the DA because, in fact, it is design in such a way that they undermine the functionality of the municipality so that they are able to facilitate handover of power if not takeover of power. And I think it’s something that we are very cautious of in relation to how in the first instance the synchronisation between this rate boycotts and the engagement with the DA.

There is a duty on yourselves as a political party to ensure that you do not encourage this sort of situations. That’s notwithstanding and that having been said, it is important to state that we have had a direct engagement with the executive mayor of eThekwini Municipality who has indicated in my response and I indicated that they have engaged with with those communities that are engaged in at least a rates boycotts or an attempt to that and that this seems to be yielding results not uniformly because they have engaged three role-players associations. Two of them have been firmly positively in their response and the other he indicated that they have make follow up discussions. So, we are quite happy that that is underway. However, the executive now also said to us, remember, it’s also important to note that, we have spent

as this municipality the bulk of our capital grants as subsidised by the national government. So, as you continue measures, also measure us on performance. Also measure us on the basis on which we grant money to the municipality and we perform in that regard and sad stories said about the metro.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Your time is now expired.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): The story could be different.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, as you may be aware, the memorial service for the late Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi is currently taking place and as such the IFP did not ask a question. There is thus an opportunity to for another supplementary question to be asked by any political party, none. We proceed to the next question.

Question 492:


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much hon Chairperson. The impact of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent on infrastructure development in local government in the last 10

years of its existence include the following: Misa has implemented infrastructure projects valued at approximately R208 million, benefiting 20 000 households in terms of access to basic services. These projects include the construction of boreholes, upgrading water and wastewater treatment facilities, refurbishing water springs and establishing water storage stands, pipelines and roads projects.

One of Misa’s key successes relates to the rehabilitation of the Somerset, High, Hill and New Streets in Makana Municipality in the Eastern Cape, which resulted in the resuscitation of the town central business district. Misa’s flagship programmes implemented during the first 10 years of the entity’s existence include, amongst others, institutionalisation of labour-intensive construction methods in infrastructure development projects in 25 Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG receiving municipalities creating
19 324.


The Eastern Seaboard Development is a programme that Misa continues to trial, to create a modern African Coastal Smart City straddling both KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. Misa has invested R5,5 million in support and capacitation of 14 municipalities on their alignment to social labour plans and

Municipal Integrated Development Plans, therefore fostering a relationship between investments by the mining industry and the municipalities.

The institution has also focused on Municipal Solid Waste management programme. This is one of the Presidential Employment Scheme projects with funding of R284 million and implemented in 41 municipalities generating an excess of
15 000 work opportunities for local participants. Misa supports municipalities to implement infrastructure projects through project lifecycle, including all infrastructure plans such as MIG, the Water Services Infrastructure Grant and the Integrated National Electricity Programme Grant contributing to the reduction of backlogs. Throughout the past decade, Misa provided over 6 000 learning opportunities to the youths and provided training to municipal officials at an average of 600 trainees per annum. These capacity development initiatives were undertaken in partnership with Sita, local government and Tvet colleges throughout the country. Thank you very much.

Mr B M HADEBE: Thank you House Chair. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response, and without me sounding as if I am applauding a fish for swimming, your response indeed signified a decade of excellence by the sight of Misa. Now

Deputy Minister, we all know that there are multiple of municipalities in the country that are facing challenges. What are the plans in place to increase Misa’s capacity in order for Misa to intervene accordingly in those municipalities? I thank you.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much. Indeed, Misa’s responsibilities and mandate continue to increase as there is an increased expectation as to what they can or can’t do. One of the things that we have done at Misa is to create a design office which is currently being piloted so that it is able to provide design capacity to municipalities and ensure that they are able to go through a procurement process. We are also engaging, in fact, the reason the Minister is not here is because she is in the Northern Cape as part of the departmental roadshows that we are undertaking for the implementation, amongst others, of schedule 6B in identified municipalities that do not have capacity, so that we are able to convert conditional grants that are direct grants into indirect grants and ensure that these are spent in municipalities that do not have the capacity. This capacity is also supplemented through our partnership with the Department

of Public Service and Administration and other partners to ensure that we build the necessary capability.

Of course, the resources are not enough, but through the appropriate partnerships that we are involved in, including with the private sector, we believe Misa’s ability to implement and increase their capability is yielding the necessary results and will improve going forward. Thank you very much.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you Chair. Deputy Minister, although Misa is duplicating the work that the municipalities are actually supposed to be doing by itself already and should have a department within the municipality that’s doing it, Misa got involved with Ditsobotla Municipality in 2020 and they developed the Infrastructure and Development Plan, but those recommendations were sent through to council and council adopted it so in 2021, it should be part of the IDP and then must be included in the budget and be implemented. Yet, Ditsobotla still today does not have water. When will Ditsobotla have water through the recommendations of Misa through action that’s been taken in terms of those recommendations? Thank you, Chair.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much. Firstly, I think if we look at Misa, we should look at it as an institution that seeks to implement section 154 of the Constitution and provide support to municipalities to undertake their own executive obligations. So, it is a support agent created to provide the necessary support and not take over from municipalities the role that they are supposed to perform.
That notwithstanding as indicated earlier, we have identified, and Ditsobotla is among those municipalities that have had continuous underspending of grants including the Municipality Infrastructure Grant and have agreed that these grants are converted into indirect grants and Misa is able to implement on their behalf so that communities do not suffer because of the municipality’s institutional capability problems. We ensure that the communities receive the services, and we implement of behalf of the municipality though the Municipality Infrastructure Support Agent. So, we are looking at performing more than just a support function but in certain instances, ensuring that services are delivered to communities that might not have this access because of their own limitations. Thank you very much.

Mr K CEZA: Thank you very much. Deputy Minister, despite having this agency having existed for this long, it cannot be said that it has contributed in any meaningful way in government of municipalities. A great majority of our municipalities are still dysfunctional and are havens for corruption and money laundering. What is the major stumbling block towards effectively functioning municipalities in the country? Why has the government failed to make municipalities models of service delivery over the past two decades? Thank you very much.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Hon Chairperson, allow me to repeat. The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent was established to provide support to municipalities with regards to execution of infrastructure related projects. This includes capital development, repairs and maintenance and rehabilitation of ageing infrastructure and Misa provides that support to the municipalities. It does not take over the functions of the municipality. Misa does not become a municipality when it walks in. It provides support to the municipality, and it is against that, that we should measure this agency. Thank you very much.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon House Chair. Deputy Minister, there is not a single water tap in Mtubatuba near Richards Bay, and probably in every second village in South Africa, there are no taps inside the houses, and the infrastructure grants should be used for this. If it is given to Misa, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, and not directly in this case to the municipality of Mtubatuba, will Misa then be able to speed up the process and how will it do for this village of Mtubatuba and other villages to get their first steps of the 30 years of democracy?


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much. Municipalities continue to receive a variety of grants that I have referred to earlier and this includes from Cogta, the Municipal Infrastructure Grant from the Department of Water and Sanitation, the Water Services Infrastructure Grant, and the Regional Park infrastructure grants. Therefore, we are going to measure the sort of support that are provided to municipalities based on our understanding of the different roles of these grants.

Now talk water and sanitation in particular, because the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, whilst being a conditional

grant, is a flexible grant to the extent that it makes provision for the municipality to make its own decisions as to where to deploy these grants. Because water has been one of the most critical issues that need attention over and above those grants that come from water and sanitation, the bulk of MIG as per the decisions of municipalities, have been directed towards water and sanitation in excess of 40% of the overall grant has gone through these services. This is intended to ensure that these measures are implemented, and communities are able to benefit from these initiatives. As indicated through the intervention of converting to indirect grants, we would be able to increase this. A similar decision has been undertaken by the Department of Water and Sanitation, including implementing mechanism through their legislation to intervene in terms of access to water and sanitation. Thank you very much.

Question 456:

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you once again, Chairperson. The Department of Co-operative Governance is in the process of developing proposals to amend the Municipal Structures Act to guide coalition arrangements in municipalities where there has been no outright majority for a single party. These proposals

should be finalised within the context of our constitutional architecture and will be implemented after following the required legislative and parliamentary process. The department has also participated and taken note of the discussions that took place during the National Dialogue on Coalition Governments that was hosted by the Office of the Deputy President, as well as during the recently held SA Local Government Association, Salga, National Members Assembly. The outcomes of these engagements will be used to strengthen the current proposals as this matter is being finalised.

Some of the proposals to be considered in the legislation relates to encouraging amendments to section 12 or establishment notices of municipalities to change from a mayoral executive system to a collective executive system to create an environment of political inclusivity. The development and publication of coalition agreements by those who enter into these agreements is also enabling the party with the highest number of seats to be given preference to form a coalition within clear timeframes. We intend finalising consultation with all stakeholders in this regard before the end of the current financial year, whereafter the Bill will be presented to the relevant Cabinet Committee, to Cabinet and

then, of course, the necessary legislative processes will be undertaken. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. I now recognise the hon Opperman who will take the first supplementary question.

Mrs G OPPERMAN: Thank you, Deputy Minister for answering part of my question. I want to know why, while you are still drafting the legislation now and recently, as you mentioned, you hosted an entire national dialogue on coalition governments. We only have to read the newspapers to realise that the ANC-EFF coalitions are falling apart and the cracks are showing. Finally, the ANC also had a taste of exactly why the EFF are terrible coalition partners and why power sharing agreements with them don’t ...

An HON MEMBER: This is just out of order now.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I would like to know whether the Minister has any plans in place to address factionalism while you are still drafting legislation. Have you any plans in place to address the greed and frivolous motions of no confidence in coalition governments that

negatively impacts on service delivery and causes instability in local government, if not, what is the position in this regard, if yes, what are the relevant details?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, can we just quiet down. There is only one Deputy Minister for Co Operative Governance. Maybe your chance will come, but not at the moment.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I certainly have observed a tendency by the DA to create the EFF as a scarecrow as soon as they dump you as a partner. But as long as they are prepared to enter into a relationship with you, it is okay to talk to them. I think it is unfortunate. I think all parties are engaging. There have been complications in coalition agreements throughout the country. The first set of coalition complications we at least witnessed were those led by the DA. And in fact your own coalition partners have accused you of arrogance; of being pompous; of being unreasonable, and a whole range of coalition agreements have been impacted by that. So, to be selective in your presentation is quite unfortunate because it is a failure to accept the reality of what has happened on the ground.

Now, the DA has a tendency and those of us with small voices struggle because when you tell the facts, they shout, so that they scream you down. I will continue to make my point because these are factual points in terms of your own conduct on the ground. Can we intervene in an environment where parties are disagreeing? As government, it is difficult until legislation has been changed. Where we require intervention, we use current legislative means. We can’t create a new regime to control parties that are in a coalition. These are agreements between parties and need to be governed as such. So, if you want me to answer as a member of the ANC’s national coalition task team, I can respond, but I don’t think that’s my mandate today. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The next supplementary question will be asked by the hon Msimango.

Mr X N MSIMANGO: Thank you very much, House Chair. Deputy Minister, how far is the department in developing policies, regulations or legislations to insulate service delivery from the ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order. Order. Order. Please disconnect that hon member immediately! I don’t know

what she is trying to say, but just disconnect her. Please proceed, hon member.

Mr X N MSIMANGO: Deputy Minister, I was saying how far is the department in developing policies, regulations or legislation to insulate service delivery from the impact of hung councils and instability of collusion governments? And what type of interventions can insulate service provisions? I thank you.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you very much again, House Chair. There are two parts to the question and are very interrelated. The first is that current legislation does provide for a separation of functions and delineation of responsibilities between the political and administrative components. Therefore, it shouldn’t necessarily be that, in fact, the administration is impacted through political interference and the municipal councillors’ code of conduct, amongst others, governs that, and it is important that our provinces undertake the responsibility of monitoring compliance to the code of conduct of councillors and in fact, interference in the administration because there is a delineation of responsibility between the two.

The second part of the question is how far are we with legislation. We were ready with the draft, but as soon as the Deputy President announced that he is convening a dialogue on coalitions, we decided not to go through with the draft. So, we accommodated the outcomes of that in relation to municipal governance and also incorporating the outcomes of the Salga’s National Members Assembly. So, we should be able to incorporate all those into the draft and should be able to go through the process. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon Herron.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, there is broad consensus that some interventions are required to stabilise coalitions. We would submit that these interventions should be systemic and structural and not venture into the democratic space by reducing the constitutionally protected right to multiparty democracy. At the national dialogue, the Deputy Minister announced that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs had started drafting legislation which included a threshold as one of the measures. This seems to pre-empt the national dialogue as well as the work of the electoral reform

consultation panel that the Minister of Home Affairs needs to appoint. So, how will this draft legislation be aligned with the work of the consultation panel and the outcomes of the national dialogue? Thank you.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): I should say thank you very much once again, hon Chairperson. I should say that when we announced at the national dialogue that the legislative process with regard to the amendment of the Municipal Structures Act had started, it was not as an intention to undermine the outcomes of the dialogue. What we are saying to the dialogue is we have a draft. We had already started working on the draft. The Deputy President convened a dialogue and we decided to hold back on submitting that so that we were able to incorporate all the comments that are being submitted. We currently are taking into account all the submissions and comments and we will use that as a basis of updating the draft that we have before we take it through the process. Is it intended to undermine the outcomes of a democratic process? No, it is not. All it is saying is that, like currently, there is a threshold. There is no democracy that doesn’t have a threshold. There is a threshold that says to qualify to be in Parliament, you require a minimum number of votes, and that is a threshold.

So, not every party that participates in the elections gets to be in Parliament even if they receive below the threshold. And all we are saying is that this should also be applicable to the establishment of the executive. But that’s a discussion.
We will put it to the public, and we will put it to Parliament and everybody will be able to make their submissions before legislation is finalised. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Hon Schreiber and the hon Radebe, it seems to me you have some answers to the coalition issue. But will you please do that outside. The Deputy Minister was busy responding to the question. The last supplementary question will be asked by the hon Groenewald.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, factionalism is not only a political structure, but sometimes in administration as well. And you said there is a separation sometimes there’s not, especially in coalition governments.
The new Structures Act or the new Systems Act alludes to the fact that staff members may not hold political office anymore. What has your office done or what has the department done to ensure that that happens after the year period is already over now? So, what have you done to ensure that there is no

political staff or there is no staff in any political structure as from this point going forward? Thank you, Chair.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Thank you, Chairperson. Except that the hon Groenewald moved us from a Structures Act conversation to a Systems Act conversation. So, I am sure hon Groenewald would appreciate if I say let us engage with that when we get to the committee. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, it is essentially a new question, hon Deputy Minister - you are correct. We will move on to the next question and it is Question 466 that has been asked by the hon Mkhaliphi to the Minister of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. The hon Deputy Minister?

Question 466:

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chairperson, any intervention that may be made by the Minister, must be consistent with the latter and spirit of the law in order to ensure that municipalities are not unduly exposed to unfunded mandates by any actions of the Minister. In this regard, through section

104 of the Municipal Systems Act, or rather section 104 of the Act permits the Minister to issue regulations or guidelines regarding the development and implementation of indigent policies.

The Act also requires that when making regulations or issuing guidelines, the Minister must take into account the capacity of municipalities to comply with those matters. The plight of indigents, be they pensioners or non-pensioners, must be ameliorated.

The implementation of the free basic services programme, which is funded through the local government equitable share, supplements the revenue raised by municipalities and is meant to assist municipalities with the provision of basic services at minimum service levels, as stipulated in the National Framework on Indigent Policies.

The elements of the framework include the provision of free basic water of 25 litres per person per day or 6 kilolitres per household, per month. It also provides for various targeting methods or approaches that can be used by municipalities to identify indigent households, which include means testing, that takes into account the household income

threshold. And also using minimum collective monthly household income equivalent to or less than too old age state pension grants, as a guide for identifying indigents.

It should be noted that the implementation of the minimal service levels varies from one municipality to another, depending on their economic capacity to implement such. The majority of the local municipalities provide free basic services using the minimum service levels stipulated in the framework, whilst most of the metropolitan municipalities provide free basic services, using the service levels above the set minimum.

It should further be noted that beneficiaries, be they pensioners or not, are liable to pay for access to basic services that exceeds the services outlined in the indigent policies of the respective municipalities. Therefore, the pensioners that will be supported in terms of their water bills are those that meet the minimum requirements in terms of the qualifying criteria they used and, secondly, the consumption levels that are within the service levels, set out in the indigent policies of the respective municipalities.

Having stated the above, if it is worth noting that municipalities make their own decisions in this regard, and we encourage pensioners to approach their municipalities to participate in the varied programmes as provided by municipal indigent policies. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Ms L H ARRIES: Thank you, Deputy Minister, I did hear your response. However, we ask this question because we know for a fact that eThekwini Municipality is disconnecting water because elderly people are unable to pay such. There is Mr Ndlovu who came to us with a water bill of R300 000. Are you intending to standardise, the way municipalities relate to the elderly and indigent households across the country?

I did hear your response on the earlier question, but we want to ask you; will you standardise because as you were saying, each municipality has its own rules, so will you standardise these indigents? Thank you, House Chairperson.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chairperson, well, I can say that we have standardised based on the minimum criteria. So, there is a minimum level of basic services that we have created a framework around which indigency policies are

implemented so that is the minimum standard. So, if you think about standardisation, there is a minimum standard.

There are municipalities, particularly larger municipalities, metropolitan municipalities, etcetera, that make additional decisions, through the implementation of the minimum indigency policies and this is at the discretion of the municipalities based on their capability to do that. So, in essence, I am saying there is a minimum standard that has been created for municipalities.

Now, it’s very important to also remember that ultimately, municipalities must be able to generate revenue based on the level of consumption in the households. In most instances, particularly poorer households, they are able to use this minimum basic service provision to be able to meet their basic requirements in the household. It becomes more difficult when people have lived in a particular area and are used to consuming at a particular level. And I am not suggesting that Mr Ndlovu is in that situation, I am saying if people are at that particular level, when income reduces, how does the municipalities intervene. But that has to be governed by the municipalities for its policy, but also it has to be governed by the necessary indigency policies. And I can bear witness to

municipalities that have made provision for that, but it’s not on the basis of them not complying to a minimum standard.
Thank you very much, House Chairperson.


Mr F D XASA: Deputy Minister, what is the rate of underspending of indigent grants and what interventions are in place to increase access for the poor and pensioners? Thank you, House Chairperson.

AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): House Chairperson, it’s very difficult to measure overall indigency deployment and underspending.
Also, because this is based on, amongst others, some municipalities implement on the basis of application, some of them have a universal coverage. So, just to make it simple, in certain instances members of the community are required to apply to be able to receive services and they say well, based on this level of income, we would be able to subsidise you to this level and that’s a decision that is made by the municipalities.

In certain instances, a municipality says; Universal access to water, free basic water shall be applicable to everybody in this municipality. So, everybody gets their 360 kilolitres of

water, and then you pay from consuming more than that. So, in those instances you would say it’s a uniform application.

So, for example, when I was still working in the City of Johannesburg, we implemented universal access. So, it would have meant that literally everybody has had access to free basic water. It is what they consume above that, that is being charged on a step term. So, it’s very difficult to give a uniform answer to that.

But there’s a particular caveat to this issue that is important to consider, which is that we send back R3,4 billion of the equitable share, which is supposed to cover free basic services from municipalities to the National Treasury. And that wasn’t as a result of municipalities refusing to spend the money but noncompliance to capital grants and we are trying to resolve that problem so that those communities are not affected by sending back money to National Treasury intended for the indigent. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, we measure every year the number of households connected to water services, sanitation services and who receive electricity

connections. Some of our governments even brag about those numbers, but a connection is really useless. If the household is unable to afford that service.

How can a city like the City of Cape Town receive R4 billion from the local government equitable share, but then only R182 million for free basic electricity, which equals 25 kilowatts hours per month? Should the department not be implementing conditions for the local government equitable share to enforce the minimum standard and secure reasonable access to water and electricity for poor and indigent households? Thank you, House Chairperson.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Hon House Chairperson, the equitable share is not a conditional grant, and it is not intended to be a conditional grant, particularly because municipalities should be able to make their own decisions, like the other two spheres of government of where to deploy their equitable share.

We do, however, provide a framework with regards to free basic services because it is important for our municipalities to remember that even though it is not a conditional grant, it is

measured on the basis of household access to water, sanitation and electricity. So, if you don’t factor that into how to design your policies, you are disadvantaging the community.

At this point it is not a compulsory mechanism it is a framework that we have created. I would share the concern that in certain instances, there are municipalities that have made decisions to the detriment and at the expense of poorer households. But it is not intended that the equitable share on its own would solve that problem because it is not a conditional grant. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr J F SMALLE: House Chair, hon Deputy Minister, your 2019 ANC manifesto theme was “Lets grow South Africa together and provide comprehensive social security”. Single older people earning not more than R86 280 qualifies for grant assistance. Food prices were up 14,4%, the highest rate of food inflation since March 2009. The Constitution obligates government to maintain and promote the status, wellbeing, and security of elderly persons.

The City of Cape Town has proven that it cares for its citizens and has introduced a rates rebate system for pensioners earning between R4,500 and R17,500 which may

qualify them for between 10 and 100% rates rebate ... [Inaudible.] ... demonstrating their willingness to ease the cost of living and protect the most vulnerable. Will the Minister consider promulgating different scales of income groups for the elderly, support those pensioners income earners between R3500 and R17,500 per month? Thank you, House Chairperson.


AFFAIRS (Mr M P F Tau): Hon House Chair, it is interesting that the DA today asks us to introduce minimum standards for deployment of equitable share. Because, in fact, that’s what you are proposing, because you are saying will we do that?

Firstly, I will say to you that on the basis of the principles of subsidiarity in our Constitution, we do believe that it is important that local government exercises its executive obligations on their own accord. It’s the first important principle. The second, is there must be a minimum threshold to deploy resources to municipalities, is a very important principle to take into account. The third is, that we do have to have a minimum threshold and it is covered in the overall framework that we provide.

Should we use benchmarks as a basis of providing a minimum threshold? If you use Cape Town as the example, I will say to you that Cape Town is not the highest threshold if you would want other thresholds that are more beneficial to communities, you can look throughout the country, and you will find me many of those.

So, to suggest that in fact, Cape Town is the most progressive in terms of indigency policy and biased to the poor, that certainly is not true. But the principle is, do we then intervene and say to Cape Town, you are providing less than Johannesburg. It is not our responsibility to do that. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, you will be pleased to know that we will move to another department now, so that you can have a short break.

Question 477:

thank once again. The answer to the question is that the department has issued a directive on developmental programmes to guide national and provincial departments. And the directive recognises the following programmes: Firstly, the

Internship Programme which facilitates practical workplace experience and is pivotal for professional accreditation. The Graduate Internship which targets unemployed graduates requiring workplace ... [Inaudible.] The Preservice Training for those pursuing higher education and needing workplace experience. The Candidacy Development Programme, which is geared towards a mandatory professional registration. The Learnership Programme which combines the theoretical and practical learning culminating qualification recognised by National Qualifications Framework, NQF.

The Apprenticeship Programme focused on trade skills instead of the NQF programme, as well as the Graduate Recruitment Scheme aimed at cultivating talent through specialised training, potentially as part of the broader developmental efforts. The last being the Structured Youth Development Programme, which is targeting individuals having completed Grade 9-12, designed to equip them with essential skills for career success.

From the year 2018-19 financial year to 2022-23 financial year, a total of 122 398 young people participated in these programmes. As at the last financial year 13 672 have been employed in the public service. The breakdown per province and

per department is available for the hon member and I will share it with her. Thank you, hon Chair.

Ms M M NTULI: Hon Chair and thank you hon Minister for your detailed response. My follow-up question is: How will the organization of the public service enhance the mobility of the youth to develop within the public service as part of developing ... [Inaudible] ... in our stage?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Did you get the question hon Minister?

did hon Chair. Even though I was struggling, but I think I did because it’s about professionalisation of the public service to enhance mobility. Let me first indicate hon House Chair that the professionalisation framework in its design covers quite a number of areas that talk to the item, professionalising the public service. The framework ensures access to quality career information, so that the youth can easily access that information.

But also, as the department we’ve issued a directive on developmental programmes, which I’ve just now shared with the

House. These are programmes that seek to ensure that there’s skill alignment and quality career services and ensuring that we make the public service the employer of choice. It shouldn’t be because I can’t find a job elsewhere then I will go to be a public servant. But also, we design these programmes to ensure that we have our own internal capabilities and expertise as a public service and therefore, young people are attracted in these out of the design of the programme. The National School of Government, NSG is also assisting us in ensuring the professionalisation work moves on Thank you hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The second supplementary question will be asked by hon Gondwe. Before you ask the question, may I ask for that member on the platform to be disconnected as well please. Please continue.


Ngaka M M GONDWE: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. [Dr M M GONDWE: Thank you, Chairperson.]

Hon Minister with regards to the issue, the pressing issue of youth unemployment, the 2019 National Elections Manifesto of

the ruling party undertook to draw more young people into decent jobs in both the public and the private sector. But the harsh and stark reality hon Minister is that we’re battling with a high Public Sector Wage Bill and economic experts have recently warned that government is rapidly running out of money.

Hon Minister how does your department intend to balance the competing issues of the high Public Sector Wage Bill and the cost-cutting measures that we need to implement as a country in order to reign in on our spending on one hand, and on the other hand, the pressing need to create and fund jobs for young people in the public sector? Thank you.

Chair, it is interesting that the ANC has even shaken the DA in reviewing its 2019 Manifesto. With respect to the question hon House Chair, earlier I had responded to a similar question, indicating that the issues of the Wage Bill as well as cost-cutting measures are matters that we sit down with the Department of Treasury and the mandating committee of government to look at what is available, where can we spend what and on what and which programmes that will ensure that

that Manifesto’s mandate is realised. That’s actually our primary responsibility and duty.

Therefore, the question of the young people, I have just shared with you the number of programmes that we are driving. Within the cost-cutting measures we still drive those programmes and young people are attracted to them. I have given you just now, the figures in terms of numbers which proves the interest in the programmes. Thank you, House Chair.

Ms R N KOMANE: Minister, considering that National Treasury now wants to place the moratorium on employment of new people in the public service. What effect will these budget cuts and other right-wing interventions in the economy have on the ability of the state to attract the young and skilful people into the public service. Thank you very much.


Chair, let me once again indicate that there would be no cost- cutting measures that would hamper the kinds of programmes that are primary in our mandate, and youth employment is primary in our mandate. Therefore, wherever we have to compromise, if there has to be cost-cutting, it would be on programmes that are nice to have programmes because there

would be programmes that are a must-have kind of programmes. And youth development and youth employment are a must-have kind of programmes. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Hon Chair, the ACDP is in agreement that youth unemployment has reached crisis proportions. While we welcome initiatives taken to employ youth in the public service, government’s role should be to create environment for the private sector to flourish for economic growth, and then to result in more youth employment. One of the most powerful initiatives to increase youth employment is the Youth Employment Tax Incentive, which reduces employers’ pay as you earn contribution. While one does appreciate progress with youth employment in the public sector, does the hon Minister not agree that the private sector can create far more jobs than the public sector and that the private sector should be encouraged to make better use of government initiatives, including the Youth Employment Tax Incentive to increase youth employment? Thank you.


Chair, in as much as that would be a general political question, I think that with youth employment is the responsibility of all of us. When I say all of us, I mean both

public and private sectors. The Constitution of the Republic enjoins all of us to create this environment where each person becomes the best they can be and that is contained in its preamble. Therefore, that Constitution is not for government, and it is not for private sector, it is for all of us. And therefore, any programme that seeks to promote personal growth should actually be supported by all. Responsible business should also create this environment that ensures that youth or young people are employed. Here I’ve been accounting about that which as the department that leads the public service, what it is that we are doing as that department to enhance the work that is done by all departments to attract young people into the workspace. Thank you, hon House Chair.

Question 480:

WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chairperson, thank you very much for that question. The department works with other departments who have the budget for assisting small and medium enterprises. We worked, for instance, with the Department of Trade Industry and Competition. Last year up to June the Department of Trade Industry and Competition, DTIC, provided women and youth owned businesses with funding to the value of R425 million. We also work with the Department of Small

Business Development which provided financial support to businesses owned by women, youth and persons with disabilities to the value of R256 million. Provinces do provide funding to small and medium enterprises and the Department of Agriculture does the same in the provinces.

The department has also initiated a process to establish a co- operative bank to contribute to the financial inclusion of those who are excluded from the banking sector through access to low-cost credit for businesses owned by women, youth and persons with disabilities. Thank you very much.

Ms C M PHIRI: House Chairperson, to the Minister, yes, you have a budget, or a budget has been placed to support but financing for small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, is currently not effectively co-ordinated. The support in government is through silos. What intervention can enhance the co-ordination of state development finance institutions, DFIs, to support SMMEs, particularly for the Human Development Index, HDI, and women, youth and persons with disabilities? I also want to acknowledge how everyone in the House is speaking about young people in terms of empowerment and small businesses. I want to applaud that. Thank you.

WITH DISABILITIES: Yes, indeed, the money that is budgeted is spread across departments and provinces; it is not in one pot, and it is not in our department. However, we try and work with other departments to see what they are doing to fund SMMEs and also direct people who come to us looking for assistance to the relevant departments. I agree that it would have been better if there was a central way of putting those budgets so that everyone knows which department to go to and all the money is there. Unfortunately, as things are that is the way that the budgeting is done, and it is not within our control. Thank you.

Ms N K SHARIFF: House Chairperson, first let me say that it is good to see you, Minister. Please do attend committee meetings because we miss you. Let me make this clear and help with the confusion there in the ANC benches. As the DA we will always hold you accountable for the empty promises that you make to those who are most vulnerable in South Africa. In your 2019 manifesto it is noted that this government will ensure an increase of opportunities for SMMEs ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!

Ms N K SHARIFF: Thank you, House Chair ... especially those that are owned by women, youth and persons with disabilities, but we have seen none of this happen. This ANC-led government is full of empty promises and really has no plan to assist SMMEs. Can the Minister please explain how the department’s Annual Performance Plan, APP, gives effect to the support of SMMEs and how will the Minister monitor this? I thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: The budget for assisting SMMEs ... [Inaudible.] ... for a start. We can ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister ...

WITH DISABILITIES: ... and that is why I was quoting you some of the figures ... [Inaudible.]

USIHLALO WENDLU (Ksz M G Boroto): ... angazi bonyana ubalekelwe yigezi nofana njani, kodwana uyahaga. Mhlamunye nange ungacima ividiyo kungaba ngcono.

WITH DISABILITIES: Is it better now?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, you may proceed.


WITH DISABILITIES: I was saying that the budget for SMMEs’ support does not reside in our department, and the hon member knows that. That is the reason why I was quoting what other departments are doing because we try and monitor that. That is why I was giving you the figures of what DTIC has spent on SMMEs and what the Department of Small Business Development has spent because we don’t have that budget; we only monitor what other departments who have the budget do. Thank you.

Ms M E SUKERS: House Chair, good afternoon to the Minister. The department ended a workshop on gender responsive planning, budgeting, monitoring, evaluation and auditing in February aimed to restructure the way government looks at financing the agenda and to ensure that public resources are allocated and spent in a way that advances gender equality and women’s empowerment saying, and I quote: “In order to achieve this, engagements with relevant stakeholders is crucial to

facilitate commitment towards ensuring the inclusion of men and women in the budgeting process.”

Have engagements with stakeholders been undertaken, and if so, what success did they have?


WITH DISABILITIES: In trying to ensure that there is preferential procurement for women, youth and persons with disabilities we have engaged, for instance, Treasury so that in their Procurement Bill that they will be tabling there is preferential procurement for those groups, and we hope that Parliament will then deal with that. Once that has happened at least it will be legalised. Although even now departments are supposed to have 40% put aside for women and 30% for youth, because there is no legal obligation, we feel that it is better to ensure that there is a law that will ensure that everyone does that. Thank you.

Question 485:


EVALUATION: Madam Chairperson, yes, we do believe that the frontline monitoring programme has made significant differences on the ground.

The programme monitors, on average, more than about 400 sites per year, and there are several practical examples that we will definitely give; and these examples have been submitted to Cabinet in May 2023 in a form of a report.

Some of these examples were shared with the portfolio committee in various reports submitted by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and I include the following: We have worked on monitoring the implementation of the Ideal Clinic Realisation Model and this has resulted in improvements, noted, of a large number of patients that are enrolled on the Central Chronic Medicine Dispensing Distribution programme for collection of medicines at different external pickup points; and we have seen this improvement also being on queue management and waiting times.

Monitoring the implementation of Sanitation Appropriate for Education programme as well, we have done it, as overseen by the Department of Basic Education. We noted improvements on the sanitation since the implementation of the project and when we raised this matter through a report that I have just said we did in Cabinet.

And we have also seen that there is improvement in access to basic services including provision of water and electricity.

We have also been able to see improvements at SA Social Security Agency, SASSA, and most especially on the rollout of Commissioners of Oath in offices to enhance service delivery, thus reducing the pressure on police stations and having to have our clients or our communities go doing up and down between the departments’ offices and the police station.

As we repurpose our department - as I have already said - we will continue to identify the priorities that will have high impact, most especially on areas that we believe need these interventions more. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Mr K B PILLAY: Hon Minister, monitoring and evaluation is one of the key elements within your office. We also acknowledge the interventions and improvements.

But, how does the department monitor and ensure accountability of these interventions from frontline services oversight?
Thank you.

EVALUATION: Madam Chair, the Frontline Monitoring and Support programme facilitates - as I’ve already said - the development of improvement plans which are monitored for implementation regularly. And - as I’ve already said as well - we are introducing and we have introduced already in other sectors the digital way of making sure that we do monitor and evaluate most of these implementation processes and interventions that we have raised with different departments and provinces.

Most of the time we do, of course, write directly to Premiers or even to MECs and Ministers to raise some of these issues before we even take them to Cabinet. And we would then now be able to monitor the implementation processes and performance of some of those institutions that we may have raised issues with from what we would have been able to collect as we do our frontline monitoring. Thank you once again.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, the frontline monitoring work of the department seems to do the evaluation parts of its mandate reasonably well, but then it hits a brick wall when it comes to informing further planning interventions, budget priorities across government. Because ideally, there should be a
two-pronged approach of both identifying shortcomings and

addressing operational weaknesses and then, on the other hand, highlighting areas and practices of success and excellence.
And by this government’s own admission, through its assessment reports, it is DA governments that lead the pack in implementation and innovation.

If you just compare Bus Rapid Transport, BRT, rollouts in Cape Town and George on the one hand, and Johannesburg and Rustenburg on the other.

So, Minister, what lessons and insights has the Frontline Monitoring Unit identified from the top performing local and provincial governments that should be adopted by those who are lagging behind? Thank you.


EVALUATION: Hon Chairperson, indeed, there are a number of institutions and municipalities, cities, in particular, all over the country that are actually leading as it relates to some of the interventions that we usually come up with as it relates to frontline monitoring and some of them may include the City of Cape Town.

But where we have seen the best practice as it relates to this particular way of doing things is in KwaZulu-Natal; most municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal. And we have seen this working best precisely because of how they are implementing what we would bring on board as it relates to integrated way of actually making sure that service delivery is done through District Development Models, DDMs.

So, we can then now be able to say this without fear or favour that where DDMs are working better and there’s one plan and one implementation through DDMs and municipalities are highly involved, we definitely have seen that improvement has been able to be done.

We can share a number of institutions that have done that, but as it relates to cities and municipalities, we can say that we have seen this happening more and better in KwaZulu-Natal; most especially because DDM are really doing well in those areas. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms R N KOMANE: Minister, much as you have partly outlined the examples of the monitoring units, can you tell us ukuthi Does your department have any power to enforce continual

improvement interventions in the various government departments?


EVALUATION: Chairperson, no, we do not have enforcing powers but we do have powers to actually monitor, evaluate and also suggest through a report, not necessarily suggest, give a report on our own findings, which we will then now take them to institutions that need them and at the same time we are able to raise the matters in Cabinet and also through the President himself.

So, at the moment we don’t have an Act that gives us the powers to do that, but as - I've already said - there is legislation that we are already working on, a Bill, which will still have to go through processes of Cabinet, committees, it will then now be able to be legislated accordingly and I do believe that once we are a to do that we’ll definitely have powers that we need.

But at the moment the system that we are using is working precisely because we are able to get information that we need and we have seen progress in most of the things that we have been able to raise. Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, there was no request for the fourth supplementary question.

Question 464:


EVALUATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Once again, yes, the Presidency for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, co-ordinates and will continue to co-ordinate the signing of performance agreements between the President and Ministers. In this regard, the President has signed performance agreements with various Ministers and this process took place between April and July before the agreements were signed, of course, there was also a face-to-face meeting between the President and the Ministers, which we as DPME of course facilitated together with the Deputy President.

As a result, as it relates to Deputy Ministers, the Minister with whom the performance agreement is signed delegates some of those agreements between the President and themselves to their Deputy Ministers. Then it means that whatever it is that would be done by the department, whether it is the delegated activities or performance to the Deputy Minister, will then come together as a report to the Presidency, and that is facilitated by ourselves.

We have been able to put the system in place to improve on this performance monitoring and evaluation as we have put a digital system that monitors the performance of Ministers. Thank you very much.

Ms S J GRAHAM: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the ANC’s two 2009 election manifesto spoke in broad terms about strengthening governance and public institutions and undertook to “Implement accountability and consequence management in pursuit of subjective.”

In 2020, performance agreements were signed with all Ministers and these were valid for one year, ending in March 2021 and were made public as a means of accountability. In the words of President Ramaphosa, and I quote:

We see these performance agreements as the cornerstone of a new culture of transparency and accountability where those who are given the responsibility to serve, whether as elected office bearers or public sir servants do what is expected of them.

There it ended. There has been no evidence that since the signing of those agreements, actual assessments have been

done. New agreements signed with new key performance indicators, KPIs, and consequence management implemented were required. Nothing since 2020.

Last week, Minister, you confirmed that the performance agreements for all Ministers have been completed for this year. Curiously, there is no evidence anywhere of these agreements no media statements, nothing on government websites, nothing even on Google. With one of the largest Cabinets in the world, our government should be shooting the lights out. Instead, while the executive gets rewarded for political patronage with high-paying jobs and no accountability, the bulk of our population faces poverty, unemployment and inequality.

Minister, we have been led to believe that the performance management of Ministers has been consistently implemented since 2020 and yet the 2023-24 Annual Performance Plan of your department reflects that analysis reports on the performance of Ministers are a new unmanaged indicator for every year since 2019. This would indicate that no actual performance assessments have been done ever.

Could you please confirm how many actual performance assessments have been done on Ministers since 2019? I thank you.


EVALUATION: I would definitely not agree that there is no sense of accountability by Ministers. The fact that I am here means that I am accountable to Parliament, but maybe because we are only talking about the performance agreement between the President and his Ministers, that can be something else. But it would be wrong for us to come here and say that there is no sense of accountability in any way.

As far as we are concerned and as far as we know, an assessment has been carried out, and this assessment for the past year has also been carried out, at least I was there between April and July, and this assessment has already been carried out, and we will carry out assessments again in the next six months’ period. The President has realized that how we have been doing assessments doing them once a year is not necessarily working. So, we have decided to do it at least twice a year.

What we will improve on, but it is not a decision that I can take, we will take it back to the President again to at least be able to communicate the assessment that we have done so that the public would then now be able to know exactly what is it that has been agreed upon and how far we are.

But assessment has been done and performance improves precisely because the assessment between the President and the Ministers has been done. So, I can safely say that between the period of 2022-23, an assessment has been done and as I have already said, I have just reported on it. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms C M PHIRI: Thank you, Chairperson. As the DA is idling to get into government and become Ministers, they must start assessing their shadow ministers because they have got shadows. Chairperson, let me proceed with my question. As you are shadowing, can I be protected as u shadow yourself? I am being drowned, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M G Boroto): Unfortunately, you are pointing the wrong finger. Just proceed.

Ms C M PHIRI: Thank you, hon Minister, for your response. You know it is thorough. As the ANC, of course, we have resolutions and these resolutions are implementable and we implement them. Minister, can you elaborate on that and tell South Africans, particularly DA, what measures you can highlight, highlight, Minister, and shine because you are implementing those measures that are a product of the assessment of your Ministers and Deputy Ministers in terms of improving their performance, can you highlight and shine.

Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Through the interventions that we have made because of the performance agreement between the President and the Ministers, we have been able to, of course, see several improvements in several departments, and I can just give an example. As it relates to the South African Police, we have now been able to see an increase in the budget given to the community policing forum, Community Police Forums, CPFs, precisely because of the process of the performance agreement that we had or that the President had with the Minister.

Because when they were doing their interviews, the Minister would come and say, “This is what I am going to do,” then the President said, “But this is what I expect, and these are the

priorities that I think must be put forward.” That agreement would then be put in such a way that when we evaluate and monitor what the President has agreed with the Ministers is what has been seen on the ground. As a result, we have also seen the South African Police Service putting in place a budget and making sure that the budget to deal with visible policing is increased. This has already happened.

As it relates to the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, we have also seen many of the Ministers with whom the President sat to discuss their performance raise the issue of Sita being a problem. We have now been able to put measures in place to say that the department that is having problems with Sita can take other ICT measures to do their own work. In some departments, we have seen an improvement because that has already happened. So there are a number of examples I can give. However, due to time constraints, I only want to end up at this point.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M G Boroto): You are very prompt with your time. Thank you very much for that.

Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Minister, if we have done an assessment, as we have indicated, what was the performance appraisal of Mr

Pravin Gordhan, who heads state-owned enterprises that are collapsing like a domino house in the country, whether he is still considered a valuable and capable member of the Cabinet despite all these glaring failures in his ministry? Thank you very much.


EVALUATION: I believe that the President is the only one who can give a clear answer to the questions that have been asked. However, it cannot be right to say that our government enterprises have failed dismally. Yes, there are failures and there are areas that need to be improved, but there are also areas where we have done very well, especially internationally, and there are, of course, improvements that still need to be made, as I said earlier. But as far as that is concerned, I could say now that of course there is no legal obligation for the President to make performance agreements.
But the President is doing it, after all, precisely because we want to make sure that accountability for ministerial performance becomes something that we enter into because we want to see improvements in what our various departments are doing. That is all I can say at this point. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M G Boroto): There was no request for the fourth supplementary question. As we move to the next question.

Question 468:

Chair, there has been a delay in rolling out the Integrated Financial Management System, IFMS, and, as such, even though the PMDS, which is the Performance Management Development System, is one of the business processes within the scope of the human resource management module of the IFMS, the IFMS programme is sponsored and led by National Treasury and supported by the Department of Public Service and Administration, the State Information Technology Agency, that is Sita, and the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies, DCDT.

The DPSA is responsible for ensuring that the HR module is designed and implemented, including the digitisation of the Performance Management Development System, a function of that HR module, for all the Public Service departments.

National Treasury has now purchased this software on behalf of the Public Service for the IFMS. The PMDS application is

included in the IFMS software Bill, the Bill of Materials and will be implemented in the national and provincial departments and government components, as part of the IFMS implementation plan.

And the second question, to develop an effective digital PMDS, the DPSA has engaged in benchmarking studies with various governmental departments and provinces that have successfully executed electronic systems. Anticipating future developments, the DPSA may expand this benchmarking to include parastatals.

It is pertinent to mention that the oracle software obtained for the IFMS is equipped with applications tailored for business processes, such as the PMDS, and these applications are considered the industry’s best practices. I thank you.

Ms R N KOMANE: House Chair, Minister, the public servants are still using manual applications for leave forms, performance assessments and salary slips, even though we claim to be living in the Fourth Industrial Revolution, 4IR. How best can your department digitise some administration functions from paper to all nine applications? Are you planning on getting rid of the Z83 application form anytime soon? Thank you very much.

that’s a number of questions, but let me try. On the question of the manual leave forms, in the absence of a digital system, you can’t say that you will throw away what you should be using and utilizing. And I have indicated the challenges, which are now being addressed, in terms of the system that is now going to be rolled out to address the digitisation.
Therefore, indeed, we do live in the era of the 4IR, as the hon member is now addressing the House from home. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): And let me just say that you don’t have to answer all the other questions, because the Rules of the House protect you. We have Rule 1427 that says you only ask one supplementary question, so you are not bound.

Ms M M NTULI: Chairperson, hon Minister, my supplementary question is: What is the progress of e-government interventions across government, and what challenges is the department facing? Thank you.

Chair, hon member, the challenges that the department has been faced with is the absence of a generic system, which I have

earlier indicated, that now, it has been purchased and we are now designing the various programmes that would fit into that. And therefore, soon, it will be a thing of the past to be saying we are struggling with respect to digitisation. I thank you.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, the truth is that technology cannot solve a lack of political will, and, in fact, in its 2019 manifesto, the ANC already promised to implement accountability and consequence management ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! The Minister should be able to hear what he is saying, please.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, it has failed dismally to live up to this promise, not because of technology, but because of a lack of political will. More than 25% out of the 9 000 senior government managers do not have the qualifications required for the positions they hold. Last year, taxpayers forked out over R130 million to pay the salaries of officials sitting at home on suspension. Hon Minister, given these failures and broken promises, why should anyone believe your new promises that there will now suddenly be an improvement in performance management, as long as the ANC is in office? Thank you.

Chair, it is a pity that we still have amongst us, people who see others as being incapable, because they don’t look the same. Let me indicate that the 25% percent that the hon member is referring to, he knows that it is not true that 25% of civil servants have no qualifications. That, he knows, is not true. Even if that was, again, going back to my earlier point on the Constitution, this government, this department is hard at work ensuring that the National School of Government helps and capacitates those without capacity.

Ours is not to destroy people; it is to build people and therefore, to come up and say that the 25%, ... What do you expect should be done with the 25%? Where should they be thrown, had it been true that they did not have the qualifications?

And I am therefore indicating to you that, as a responsible government, we capacitate those who lack capacity. They will continue to be employed, because they were employed correctly. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! There is no request for the fourth supplementary question.

Question 479:

WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. Let me start by saying, yes, we have made progress. In collaboration with the SA National Defence Force, we have developed a consent paper for the Sa Defence Force-led national service to provide skills targeting women, youth and persons with disabilities. Also, the programme will build character and leadership skills. We are now, together with the SA National Defence Force and the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, developing an implementation plan and costing the various streams and phases of implementation.

Also led by the National Defence Force, we are in discussion with the following sector education and training authorities Setas, to collaborate with us in these projects. We are discussing with the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related Services, Merseta, Agricultural Sector Education Training Authority, Agriseta, Transport Education Training Authority, Teta, Energy and Water Sector Education Training Authority, Ewseta. That is the progress we have made. Thank you.

Ms G P MAREKWA: Thank you, Minister for the response to the question. We appreciate the collaborations that you have with

the SA National Defence Force. Maybe to elaborate further on the question is that, what are the critical skills or qualities that the youth, women and persons with disabilities are going to gain from these collaborations? Can we get that? Thank you, Chairperson.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much for the follow-up question. What we have decided is that we are going to, working with industry, train the young people, women and persons, with disabilities skills that are needed by industry so that we don’t train them and tomorrow they are unemployed. We are identifying those together with industry. Amongst them is the maritime skills, information and communications technology, ICT, skills and many other skills. But they are being identified together with industries so that as they train and finish training, they can either get a job or create job.

Mrs G OPPERMAN: House Chairperson, Minister since I have been in the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, you have yet to attend a meeting. You don’t show up to Parliament. We vote in your absence in portfolio committees and shows no appetite for the issues facing women,

youth and persons with disabilities. Can you tell us how many women, youth and persons with disabilities will be targeted through the SA National Defence Force, SANDF-led skills implementation plan, how many people will be capacitated and how will the process of recruitment and implementation unfold? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you are aware that you have asked three questions. Minister, you have a right to respond to one question. The Rules protect you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much. Let me just first say, if a member doesn’t attend portfolio committees, I have attended portfolio committees. So, she must not come here and talk nonsense. The women, youth and persons with disabilities that will be trained in four phases in this project. There will be a pilot phase, intermediate phase, extermination phase and sustainable phase. The Defence Force, together with us and industry, will determine how many will be trained per phase.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hendricks, I know that you are coming in for the next follow-up question, but

when you are in, please mute until we ask you to speak because you were disturbing the Minister as she was responding.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon Chair. My fingers are not as fast as yours. My apology for being proactive. Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Minister, can the next generation’s skills like robotics, artificial intelligence, revolutionary innovation technology rid a focus in a national service programme for youth who are unable to go to institutions of learning, for abused women and also for blind people who are using guide dogs? Thank you very much?

WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much. Yes, those skills that the industry needs, now and the future, will be part of the training. But I agree with the hon Hendricks that persons with disabilities and others should also be included in these skills for the future. Thank you.

Ms P MARAIS: Thank you so much, Chairperson. I will take it on behalf of Mme Sonty. Minister, are you maybe aware of the recent case of a woman in the Eastern Cape who killed her three children and herself this week as a result of poverty and her inability to provide a livelihood for the family? This

follows a similar case in the Eastern Cape a month ago. Has your department conducted any assessment of the extend of rural women poverty in this country, if not, why not; and if so, what sort of intervention are you planning to roll-out targeting specifically rural women who are living under the grinding stone of poverty? Thank you, Chairperson.

WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, I think this question deserves to be asked as a question on its own, and not as a supplementary question. But let me say that first of all, yes, we are aware that there is poverty in rural areas, especially. That is why we have said that even though we don’t have a budget, as you know that we don’t have a budget to implement, but we are going to take a step to change. We are trying to partner with business and with provinces. For instance, last week we were in KwaZulu-Natal together with MEC for Agriculture. We have decided that we must have integrated farming in the rural areas. People must use what they have - the land they have.

Last week, we were at Msinga with the provincial MEC for Agriculture where they were supporting, especially, women co- operatives who are growing food. They were connecting with

markets. We had to harvest some of their products and take them to Spaar to connect them with the markets to try and deal with this kind of poverty. That programme is also going to be rolled out. There is also support for livestock. We are aware of this poverty, and we are trying to do our best without the budget but working with other people who can support us. We are linking up with ... [Time expired.]

Question 478:

WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much for that question, the Constitution places the responsibility to promote the respect, development, use and recognition of SA Sign Language on the Pan South African Language Board, PanSALB. So, following the legalisation of sign language as the twelfth official language, a task team has been established, comprising of the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, the Pan South African Language Board, the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture, the Department of Higher Education and associations representing members of the deaf community.

This task team is developing a plan of action on mainstreaming SA Sign Language across all governments and society in general. Further, the PanSALB is rolling out training on the

SA Sign Language Charter for provincial and national civil servants in all provinces, starting now in September during Deaf Awareness Month. This is tied with the commemoration of the International Day of Sign Language on 23 September as declared by the United Nations. Thank you.

Ms T S MASONDO: House Chair, the follow-up question, Minister: What resource allocation is required to mainstream sign language in the public and private sector spaces? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: I do not have the cost because ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Madam Masondo! Oh! Oh, I thought you didn't hear her well. Can you ... [Interjections.] ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, Okay, proceed, ma’am.

WITH DISABILITIES: Can you hear me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, we can.


WITH DISABILITIES: Yeah, I’m saying that the PanSALB is the one that is rolling-out. They will be the one that will have
... [Inaudible.] ... and would cost how much it’s going to cost them to roll out. Thank you.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe. ngifuna silalelane kahle, ezindaweni zasemakhaya kunabantu abaningi otholayo ukuthi abakwazi ukukhuluma abakwazi futhi nokuzwa, ngifuna ukubuza ukuthi yinini lapho esizokubona khona wenza izikol, uqashe othisha abazokwazi ukubafundisa ukukhuluma ngolimi lwezandla njengezasemadolobheni, ngoba isikhathi esiningi emadolobheni izinto ziyenzeka kodwa abantu basemakhaya abanakiwe.

Yilana engizocela khona ukwazi ukuthi, kanti bona laba bantu basemakhaya yini benganakwa uma bekhubazekile ngoba nabo bayafuna ukuthi bafundiswe ukuze bakwazi ukuqashwa njengoba

sibabona bekhona la ePhalamende nabo bahole bengapheli ngemali yesondlo sokukhubazeka. Ngicela impendulo ngesiZulu kahle ngqo kuzwa abantu emakhaya. [Ubuwelelwele.]


USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Siyathokoza Mama Khawula, siyathokoza iskhathi sakho siphelile. Begodu angazi bona uNgqongqotjhe waboMma uyabaqatjha abotitjhere na.

Ma’am Dlamini, proceed and try to respond. Thank you.



ABANTU ABASHA NABAKHUBAZEKILE: Yebo, hhayi ngiyakuzwa Mama uKhawula kodwa sengathi ungqongqoze emnyangweni ongewona. Izikole azakhiwa yilo mnyango kodwa zikhona izikole zikaHulumeni nasemakhaya. Mhlawumbe-ke hhayi zonke, kodwa zikhona izikole zabantu abakubazekile ezikhona nasemakhaya. Kodwa ngeke ngikwazi ukuzibala zonke ngoba angizazi zonke, ezisazokwakhiwa, Ungqongqoshe Wezemfundo Eyisisekelo uyena ozokwazi ukuthi sizokwakha lezi nalezi endaweni ethize nethize. Umbuzo omuhle wona lo kodwa sengathi kufuneka ubuzwe

la uzokwazi ukuthi uphenduleke kahle khona eMnyangweni Wezemfundo. Ngiyabonga.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Mama uKhawula, uzoba nengxoxo noNgqongqoshe uDlamini-Zuma ngaphandle. Umvimbe endleleni, akutshele ukuthi wenzeni.

Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you, House Chairperson, Minister, before you speak about people speaking nonsense, I would urge you to do some self-reflection. Minister, this department is yet to have formulated any legislation towards persons with disabilities. The White Paper on Disabilities has been collecting dust.

The ANC government, once again, pulled the wool over the eyes of so many people with disabilities when it promised to finalise the legislation that deals with disabilities in 2019, and we are yet to see anything come to this House. Can the Minister explain how far the legislation affecting persons with disabilities is and what the status thereof is? Thank you, House Chair.

WITH DISABILITIES: Yes, I hear that the Bill on disability will come to Parliament. It was being discussed with the Law Reform Commission. It is going to come to Parliament. Thank you.

Question 462:

WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much for that question, let me first explain that the budget for the Sanitary Dignity Programme is dispersed directly to the provinces by the National Treasury and provinces run their procurement processes independently and they appoint the service providers to deliver sanitary pads. As the department, we have no control over how the budget that has been sent directly to the provinces is used and how their procurement processes are run.

In trying to monitor the programme, the department convenes quarterly Sanitary Dignity National Task Team meetings with representatives from all provinces to get an update on progress in the implementation of the programme. That’s what we do but we cannot tell them how to procure or when to procure, because that budget is theirs, given to them directly by Treasury. Thank you.

Ms N K SHARIF: House Chair, the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities went to an oversight in Mpumalanga and what we found there was shocking. The lack of processes, frameworks and co-ordination from the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities and the province on the procurement and distribution of sanitary products is indicative of the failure of a government that doesn't care.

The fact that the portfolio committee learnt that the distribution of sanitary products in Mpumalanga was not SA National Standards, Sans, approved and caused rashes for some of those learners who used them is unacceptable. Minister, what have you done to ensure that those who signed off on those products that were not Sans-approved and put the young girls’ health at risk are held accountable? Thank you, Chairperson.


WITH DISABILITIES: It’s very clear that the hon member doesn’t understand how government works. We discussed this with the province but I have no power to go and punish someone in the province who is employed by a province. This discussion has happened also in the portfolio committee. I was in that portfolio committee when the members came with the report from

Mpumalanga. We can advise, we can advocate, but we cannot force a province to punish someone because we just don’t have that power. If we had, we would exercise it. Thank you.

Ms Z NKOMO: Thank you, House Chair, Minister ...



 ... ziningi izinkulumo la ngaphandle ezithi amaqakelo kumele afikeleleke kalula njengamajazi abakhwenyana ...


... but the observation is that ...



 ... ayimvela kancane. Ngakhoke, bengithanda ukuzwa umbono kaNgqongqoshe mayelana nalolu daba.


Thank you.



ABANTU ABASHA NABAKHUBAZEKILE: Awu, uyabona-ke lapho ngivumelana nawe. Ukuba kuya ngathi ngabe vele atholakala

yonke indawo njengamajazi abakhwenyana, kodwa-ke okwamanje imali yawo iya kuzifundazwe ukuthi ayothengwa khona. Kodwa ngokomthetho ngempela asizameni ukuthi abekhona ngoba amaqakelo ...

 ... are not nice to have but something that you must have. You can’t avoid it. Thank you.

Ms T BREEDT: Thank you, House Chairperson, Hon Minister, the Sanitary Dignity Programme has been chaotic at best. In the past, provinces have gone unscathed with no real consequences for not implementing this programme.

I wanted to ask, what measures will you implement to ensure provinces are compelled to implement this programme, but I will not. So, I will ask you: Are you telling us that these funds can be squandered by the provinces with no consequences and no real oversight by your department or by Parliament?
Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: I've not said that, hon member. Firstly, the Treasury that sends funds to the province monitors the

transactions in the provinces, And lastly,the Auditor-General monitors how funds are utilised by all of us, not just the provinces, but by all the departments. So, I haven’t said that funds must be squandered. All I’ve said is that I have no power to dictate to the provinces when the funds have been given directly to the provinces. Thank you.

Question 483:

EVALUATION: Hon Chairperson, South Africa's BRICS membership aims to deliver on the country's national interest and foreign policy priorities in line with the National Development Plan, NDP and Priority 7 of the Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, of 2019 to 2024.

South Africa emphasizes their concrete cooperation that contribute both directly and indirectly to the priorities of a better South Africa, a better Africa and therefore a better world through its partnership in the BRICS. No specific BRICS cooperation agreements were signed during this particular BRICS summit held in Johannesburg from the 22nd to the 24th of August 2023.

However, several agreements were signed during meetings on the margins of the BRICS summit, including the BRICS Manufacturing Forum held on the 21st of August 2023 as well as the state visit of China on the 22nd of August 2023. Commitments were also made by BRICS leaders in the Johannesburg Declaration adopted following the BRICS summit.

Agreements signed and commitments made are monitored through the quarterly and annual monitoring of delivery agreements and the performance agreements signed by the President with the relevant Ministers.

Of course, this must be done precisely because at the end of the day, when we also report on the BRICS platform, we would like to then now be able to look at what we have done. So. this is what is going to happen, and it will start soon precisely because the summit only took place last month.

But we will definitely report to the House when a call is made to say, in terms of the declaration that has been made and other agreements that have been signed in the sidelines, most especially done by Ministers, we will definitely be able to give that report when it is ready. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Hon Minister, what opportunities will the BRICS Plus expansion create for our country and can the hon Minister kindly highlight key areas of cooperation from the recent summit? I thank you, Chair.

EVALUATION: Indeed, the key priorities that are going to be seen because of this expansion will firstly speak to the issue of expanding our own mission as it relates to our influence globally, because once you have all these other countries that have come on board, you are able to broaden the influence that you have, even in other multilateral institutions.

But most of all equally so, we would be having influence in, countries such as Egypt, especially when we are here in Africa, because whatever it is that we will be agreeing upon in BRICS, we will then now be able to see it happening in other multilaterals as I have already said.

But equally so we are saying that there is also an opportunity to grow a stronger coalition of developing nations who can better put the interest of the Global South on the world’s agenda. That's what we believe will assist us to be able to

have a greater voice and a bigger voice as it relates to some of these issues.

In terms of the key areas of cooperation from the recent summit, the 15th BRICS summit has successfully adopted the Johannesburg Declaration, a document that incapsulated significant BRICS viewpoints on matters of global economic, financial, and political significant.

This is as a block building upon the 15 years of the BRICS summits that have taken place and it further committed to strengthening the framework of mutually beneficial BRICS cooperation under the three pillars of political, security, economic and finance, as well as cultural people to people cooperation. And I think we've already been able to see this when it comes to the people to people cooperation, as well as through education and health. In terms of finance, we've also been able to see what has happened and some of the new suggestions that are coming on board as it relates to the BRICS Bank.

The block has also committed to enhance its strategic partnership for the benefit of its people through their promotion of peace, a more representative fairer international

order, a reinvigorated and reformed multilateral system, sustainable development, and definitely inclusive growth.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, the BRICS and other similar multilateral organizations can obviously be valuable opportunities to promote trade and investments and to cultivate links for peer learning and exchange. But they also present risks by increasing the number of issues where we as South Africa can find ourselves with the conflicts between the government and international friends on the one hand, and our domestic priorities and values and agendas on the other.

For example, the government’s stance on the Ukraine invasion and the Lady R scandal which was seemingly based on the motto Russia with love and our many unfortunate voting choices at the United Nations Human Rights Council are examples of this.

So, can the Minister please confirm that wherever and whenever the governments have to make a choice between BRICS obligations and the NDP, which your department as the custodian of monitoring and driving our country and its development, gender will always come first?

EVALUATION: First of all, I do not think that there was anything wrong with the stance that South Africa has taken in ensuring that we push forward the progressive and interactive peace order in Ukraine and or between Ukraine and Russia. We did very well and what we did. Has been applauded by many people, including the United Nations Secretary General.

However, as it relates to what you have asked, our country is very clear, and I think all the other BRICS countries are very clear on national interest. Our national interest is the very reason that we are part of BRICS. As a result, us being part of BRICS is to ensure that our national interest is being forwarded and is being enhanced through those multilateral sectors.

So there's absolutely no way that there would be any opportunity where South Africa would then now find itself putting the interest of our own country second in any way, and we see us being in the BRICS, definitely being, as I've already said, an opportunity to enhance some of the things that we want to do and this includes amongst the most issues of bilateral nature as well as ensuring that where we want to see a difference including the issues of security, United

Nations Security Council will definitely be knowing that our allies in the BRICS will definitely be able to assist us and agree with us to push forward what we know is in the best interest of our country. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There are no requests or there were no requests for follow up Question 3 and 4. Hon members, for the first time the time allocated for questions has not expired. For the first time, there won't be any outstanding replies that will be printed on Hansard. And I want to thank all the members of the executive that made this process a success today. Having said that, I order all the members to stand and wait for the Chair and the Mace to leave the Chamber. That concludes the business of the day, and the House is adjourned.

The House adjourned at 17:43.



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