Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 07 Sep 2023


No summary available.


Watch here: Plenary

The Council met at 14:06.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the Rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular subrules 21, 22 and 23 of Rule 103, which provides as follows: That the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that for the purpose of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present; that delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak; that delegates should ensure that the microphones on the electronic devices are muted and it must always remain muted, unless they are
permitted to speak; that all delegates in the Chamber may make connect to the virtual platform and must insert their cards to register on the Chamber system; that delegates who are physical in the Chamber must use the floor microphones; that all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room.

In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active. Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their electronic devices is properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation facilities.

Please, note that there be no notices of motion or motions without notice, except the motion on the Order Paper. So, I’ve been informed that this is going to be the case indeed, except the motion on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: That Rule 229(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, be suspended to enable the Council to consider the reports of Select Committee on Security and Justice.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and Western Cape.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we will now proceed and look at Rule 229. So, hon delegates, I would like to take this opportunity to, as we move in that direction, welcome the Deputy President. I also want to welcome the permanent delegates, MECS and all special delegates to the House.

Now, I would like to remind delegates, that in terms of Rule

229 of the Council’s Rules, the time for reply by the Deputy President to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question would be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The
time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes and the time for reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. And very important, hon delegates, the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question. So, you can’t just raise any question. The question must relate to the main the main question. We will now proceed to questions.


Question 13:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, and a good afternoon to all hon members of the NCOP. It is good to be with you once again. Hon Chairperson, I would like to express my gratitude to all the participants of the National Dialogue on Coalition Governments for their invaluable contributions to the success of the dialogue which was held at the University of the Western Cape from the 4th to the 5th of August this year.

Political parties and representatives from various sectors of our society came together to discuss a set of principles aimed at promoting the effective functioning of coalition governments to serve the people, especially at the local government level.
Hon Chairperson, through collaborative efforts we can establish a robust, effective, stable and resilient local government that serves all our citizens. By defining the rules, procedures and potential sanctions that would apply to political parties and independent councillors who govern together, we will ensure fairness, transparency and accountability in our political system.

As we agreed, as an outcome of the dialogue, political parties and civil society are expected to enhance the declaration and process roadmap towards the development of the framework subsequently leading to the drafting of legislation to govern all coalition governments in South Africa. So, Chairperson, that’s where we are now and we are expecting feedback from all parties and we will then finalise the report that will then be submitted to Parliament for adoption. I thank you very much.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Chairperson. And thank you, hon Deputy President for your response. Deputy President, the challenges of municipal governance in South Africa are an ongoing concern, and in recent years the emergence of coalition governments at the municipal level has presented both opportunities and complexities in governance and the political landscape as the country forges a path of effective governance with integrity.

As South Africa navigates its complex political landscape, how do we ensure, hon Deputy President, that South Africa builds on the very successful session we had at the University of Western Cape to leverage the potential of coalitions and explore viable solutions to stabilise municipal governance through effective and integrity-based coalition government framework that includes professionalising the public service, transforming the system that supports municipalities in coalitions, developing a new culture and social contracts for coalitions, which include thresholds and proposing of regulations for coalition governments. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Thank you very much, hon Mohai. You would recall that coalition governments in South Africa almost caught us unprepared right from the elections of 2016 in local government. That is when we realized that many parties had to work together. And since then we have realized that there are several challenges at the local government level where you have coalition governments primarily because the rules were never clear. So, in any locality, people will decide how they do it and try and negotiate at that level. And at some point it came to reflect almost given and take - I’ll take this, you will take that. That’s why we thought let’s develop a framework and make it transparent.

All parties must have input and come up with a set of principles that will say once you are in that situation, these are the important things that you need to do. And amongst them is the issue of prioritizing the people when you come into a coalition arrangement. Is it designed to benefit the people and to advance service delivery? We have now incorporated those in the framework where we say prioritise the people, prioritize service delivery, prioritize good governance and then you can agree on who performs what role. That’s really where we are now.

As I said earlier that political parties at the dialogue agreed that they want to go back to their constituencies to consult once more and they are going to come back to give us feedback and then we will be able to finalise the document.

We are awaiting that. So far the IFP has already responded and we are waiting for other parties to do the same, then we will
finalise the document. It is a very comprehensive approach because we are not doing this ad hoc but for the future to ensure a stable government across the country. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chair. Deputy President, given that the ANC supported so many of the DA’s proposals made at the National Coalition dialogue and you just highlighted that you are going to focus mainly, on the frame that you are going to put together on the benefit to the people, service delivery and good governance that the DA is well known for. Will the ANC then also support our coalition Bills that are in Parliament now?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy President, well, I noticed that at the dialogue that the DA was not far from us. I am sure the DA will say we noticed that the ANC was not far from us. I think it is good when our thoughts converge when we do good things. So, we are not going to differ with the DA for the sake of it, where we agree we agree.

But hon member, you would recall that we did say at the summit itself that legislation will follow. We said this is the route that ultimately we are going to reach. But I think it was important that we come up with a set of minimum agreements that will be consolidated in this framework and once that is done, you can then be able to put together legislation.

So, it was not only the DA. You would recall, hon member, that the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, also indicated that they were in the process of drafting legislation and once we started this process they then decided they were going to wait and then take the framework. So, as soon as we are done with the consolidated report, the DA can use it how it fits. If you want to use it to draft some legislation, you can do so, but the Minister of Cogta is already doing so as well. But it’s not quite done yet.

So, what will happen is that once the framework is finalised, they will use it as a guide, and I am sure the DA should feel free to contribute to that process. We thought that we should not rush into legislation. Let’s allow this process to be completed. We will move there. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President, do you admit that the opening of a National Coalition dialogue by the ruling party is a sign of admission that your party’s performance in the 2024 national elections could be below 50% and that this exercise is nothing but a desperate cling to power? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Moletsane, we have heard that phrase many times now that what we were doing is an acceptance that the ANC is going to come under 50% in the 2024 elections. Far from it, we decided, as the National Executive Committee, NEC, of the ANC that South Africa is already in coalition governments in many local authorities, as you know. In some of them, you work with us as the EFF. So we are already there. The coalitions are there. But the NEC then said- please don’t disturb him, he wants to hear me, yes. The NEC then said, let’s have a clear set of rules. And it was not so much about 2024, it was about now. Let’s establish a clear set of rules that coalition governments will follow. But while we are doing that now, we need to create a framework that we can use in the future. For any situation that arises, provincial or otherwise, you now have a set of rules that will guide you. As you may have heard, our President recently said, “We are campaigning to win”. In 2024, we will aim to win.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, we also find it amusing that the ANC is suddenly taking an interest in
discussing coalitions. Now, when there is a real chance for the ANC to lose the majority of the votes in 2024.

However, Deputy President, trying to use legislation to keep a losing party from losing control over the government and its resources, will show that the ANC puts itself above democracy and the will of the people. In light of that, Deputy President, can you assure us that legislation will under no circumstances be exploited to keep a party that is losing support in power by disadvantaging other parties? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, hon member, we are not interested in coalitions now. As I said earlier, I was one of the people who was involved in the discussions on coalitions in 2016, when we had this problem, mandated by ANC. At the time I was still in Gauteng, prominent amongst the people who later worked with me on a coalition was Ms Helen Zille herself. We were involved in that. Then the EFF hon Floyd Shivambu and all that and I am talking about 2016, so it is not now. My point is that we are now in a situation where we realise that this thing is such a reality in our country that we have about 81 hung municipalities right now. It has become such a reality that if we do not develop rules to guide
us all, we will have chaos as we have seen in some areas and different municipalities.

So, it is not about taking power away from the people and so on, it is about ensuring stability, good governance and effective service delivery. Because then the parties will have the ground rules of how they co-operate. Because they are already there. We can’t wish it away.

I think is good for the leadership to be proactive, as you can see the NEC of the ANC is very proactive in saying let’s put these rules so that we are not caught by surprise in any eventuality. Whether is local government or provincial government. We need to have these rules in place. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

Question 14:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I am not aware that eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality has refused to co-operate with the proposed implementation of section 154 intervention as outlined in the Constitution. However, I am aware that the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal are working with various provincial and national sector
departments such as Treasury, Water and Sanitation, particularly to assist eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to address the challenges such as the recent flooding disasters that took place there, the looting that took place in KwaZulu- Natal during the July 2021 Unrest.

The collaboration aims to support and strengthen the municipalities, particularly about the damage water and electricity infrastructure. This is because, as per section 154(1) of the Constitution:

The national government and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their functions.

Hon Chairperson, section 154 of the Constitution is important as it serves as a constitutional mechanism that effectively bolsters and fortifies the capacity or capabilities of our municipalities or cities. It enables national government and provincial governments to support and strengthen municipalities in their responsibility critically to provide quality services to the people. So, as far as I am aware,
eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality has not said no to this support. Thank you very much.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Mr Deputy President, your response reminds me of a term coined by Aristotle called akrasia which refers to the unerring propensity to always make the worst possible decisions. The fact of the fact of the matter is that eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality officials under the ANC- led government refuse to co-operate with the section 154 for administrators? That is why I am standing here today as representative of KwaZulu-Natal and representing one of our major metros. Mr Deputy President, the real picture on the ground is as follows, eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality is experiencing a crisis primarily driven by the actions of the ANC and their coalition partners, the EFF, service delivery has ground to a halt, sewage flows down the streets, and water and electricity outages are now a daily occurrence.

In response to this crisis, the ANC and the EFF has so far budgeted R11 million for parties. They are about to increase the salary of the city manager to R3,9 million per year. That is more than the President and as a result, ratepayers are starting to withhold their money. This coalition of chaos and corruption has reduced eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to
a foul smelling rubbish island in a sea of sewage, a true kakistocracy, another Greek word. There can only be one solution, Mr Deputy President, and that solution is administration.

You spoke earlier of your willingness to co-operate for the good of communities, and I ask you today my question to you, sir, will you today except my invitation to come to eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality and to see this crisis for yourself so that you can lend support to the urgent intervention that is now required? I thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, Hon member, I will be in KwaZulu-Natal next month and when I am there, I will visit eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to check for myself what is happening, but let me tell you that government has been intervening. I am dealing with this issue that you are saying they are refusing. I have already said the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is already working with them, that is, with the Minister of Water and other relevant Ministers. In fact, last year already in September, the eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality was assisted, because of the disasters, was assisted with
R185 million from the Municipal Disaster Response Grant, MDRG.
Again this year in March, with another R1,5 billion to be able to deal with this challenge.

Remember, it is not that they have these challenges because they cannot do their work. There was disaster in that place and I think sometimes we take it easy. The leadership of eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality is trying to come out of disaster and it is doing its best to do to do that work. So, it is not refusing. In fact, it comes from section 139 before where they were there were interventions. Section 154 is actually a support and it would be very strange that they refuse support when they need it the most. So, yes, you have your own impression about what is happening there. We will look at it, but as far as I know they have welcome the support and we are going to support them to turn around the situation. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Deputy President for your elaborate response. I may just hasten to say, hon Deputy President that it is not eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality that is in crisis and in a chaotic state, but it is Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality that is led by the DA. The Auditor- General has declared it as the worst performing metropolitan municipality. Its debts has accumulated for to more than
R4 billion. As we speak, workers are on strike and Eskom and Rand Water is owed a lot of money. Now hon Deputy President, in the light of the fact that both the national and provincial governments are committed to support...

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chair, on a point of order:


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Brauteseth, on what point are you rising?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: I am rising on a very important point that the follow up question has got to be linked to the original question. The original question is specifically about eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality and it is not about Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality. No, no, no, this is an eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality question and he is talking about Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality. There is no relationship.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If I may just call for patience, hon members? Order and then patience. As far as I could listen, hon Dodovu was still in his way putting forward a question.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... [Inaudible.] Please proceed.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Deputy President, in light of the fact that both the national government and provincial government are committed to support and strengthen the capacity of eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to deal with the challenges facing it, what are the specific support measures and capacities that both the sphere of government will implement in terms of section 154 of the Constitution to help this municipality to achieve its objectives of providing services to the people, of resolving the problems caused by the floods and the violence that ensued in the area of its jurisdiction in 2021?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson. Hon Dodovu, as I said earlier that there are already the various interventions taking place eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality, led by the national government. As I said earlier, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, herself, is leading those interventions. What we are trying to do there, is to ensure that there are collaborative efforts from the premier, leading the provincial
government, from national government to work with eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality. I have already indicated the grants that have been provided but also there is a Municipal Disaster Recovery Grant that has been sent recently to them.

There is a team that is working with the province there to ensure that we help eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to really come out of that situation and be able to focus on ensuring that they deliver services. We are also going to use the District Development Model to be able to strengthen work there. I was in eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality not long ago when I went to engage in the District Development Model there. The premier was there, in fact, most of provincial government officials were there and the eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality itself and we are beginning to ensure that we can prioritize service delivery services. Hon Dodovu, we are already on the ground there, so it is not just what we are thinking. These interventions are already there, the Ministers are already there on the ground and I will also be going to KwaZulu-Natal next month. Thank you very much.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy President, as a party we have long called for eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality to be placed under administration instead of section 154 intervention, as
this intervention has been implemented in other municipalities in the province without much success.

Hon Deputy President, please provide details as to why you are convinced that this intervention will be successful in eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality when it failed dismally in Msunduzi Local Municipality. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Hadebe, I obviously have not checked what happened in Msunduzi Local Municipality. So I cannot say that because they did not succeed in Msunduzi Local Municipality, they will not succeed in eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality.

Normally, we place municipalities under administration when all else has failed, so it is not the beginning, it is the end. So, national government, in terms of the Constitution, is obliged or obligated to provide support. Only if that fails, you then put it under administration.

So, yes, if eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality fails, after all these interventions we are making, we will have no choice, but to go the same route of putting them under administration. But that is not where you begin that is where you end and that
has been the approach throughout the country. You start by providing support and support, work with them and if all else fails then you go to section 139 and put them under administration. That is how the system works. Thank you very much, hon Chair.

Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy President, in light of the challenges faced in the eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality, which timeframes have been put in place to implement interventions?

Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Timeframes yes, Deputy President.



boeletsa, ke mo utlwile. A rile ...


...what is our timeframe?
Look, normally when you do interventions it depends on the severity of the problem, but in most cases interventions at those levels do not go beyond six months to be able to be sure that the municipalities can be able to run on its own. You may take longer where the situation is dire, but the sooner the councillors in the area, the executive mayor and MMCs take over one hundred percent, the better. So, we are not intending to get national government to live in eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality. We want to go in and out and I am sure that the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs knows that the President will want results within the next six months. If they can do it in three months, the better, but sometimes it takes longer, especially if you have to change systems, etcetera, but I am convinced that in most cases you will not even need longer than six months if you are providing good support.

If you put it under the administration, it may take a bit longer because that is a different story now you are now taking over. In some instances when a municipality is put under administration it goes until the next election where you now have a new leadership, but if its support is easy to go in and come out within reasonable time, so I would say no more than six months. Thank you very much.
Question 15:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, in 2020, the government passed what is called-the Border Management Authority Act into law and this law paved the way for the establishment of the Border Management Authority, BMA.

The BMA is mandated by legislation to do, amongst others, the following: Facilitate and manage the legitimate movement of persons within the borders and law enforcement area at a ports of entry. That’s the first thing.

Second one, facilitate and manage the legitimate movement of goods within the border law enforcement area and the ports of entry, and also, co-operate and co-ordinate the border law enforcement functions with other organs of the state. In another words, the police, the army etcetera. But in particular, the law provide that they should also co-operate and co-ordinate with border communities, which is very important because often we think that law enforcement must be left to the police and the army. But the law particularly stresses the issue of the involvement of communities along those areas they have to be involved and of course, other persons of interests.
Now Chairperson, in the process of its work, the Border Management Agency has intercepted thousands of individuals attempting to enter the country illegally. So, they have already achieved that and they also recovered numerous stolen items in their work.

We are also taking additional measures now to ensure that public safety in cross-border communities or townships and also in our own townships her. In informal settlements these additional measures are put in place by increasing the number of officers. In other words, police and so on who should work and be visible in our streets and creating specialised teams where necessary. So, if you go to the borders you will find out that there are number of border management police that are working in those areas and they are very visible. But we thought it should be a trend throughout the country not just in the borders.

Last year, the SA Police itself committed to recruiting 12 000 new police personnel, and since then over 10 000 recruits have already graduated. So in other words, they have now been deployed to these areas.
So, as government, we are determined to tackle the issue of violent crime and another form of criminality or criminal activity in a very proactive manner. We are actively perusing national, provincial and local measures to prevent crime and to ensure that all individuals in our country feels safe and they are secure. We believe that working together as government, civil society and the private sector, we can make meaningful progress in creating safer communities.
Chairperson, I thank you very much.


Ms N E NKOSI: Greetings to you, Deputy President. Deputy President, thank you very much for the detailed response to my question. Deputy President, during various oversight visit and engagements of the NCOP to cross-border communities many police stations made a plea for appropriate resources that will enable them to effectively deal with the cross-border crime such as high terrain vehicles, high calibre weapons, aerial surveillance, tools and technology as well as more human resources.

Deputy President, is government looking at targeted funding to resource cross-borders police stations to have adequate necessary tools to wage a consented battle against cross- border crime? Thank you very much.

Minister of Police recently made a presentation to the President and myself on how they are going to improve policing and what they need in order to do so.

I said earlier that they have plan to train 12 000. They have already done 10 000 but he indicated that they want in a way take another 10 000 new recruits. So, they are increasing the numbers. But you are quiet right, it is not just about personnel. It’s also about equipments.

We said in the meeting with the President to the Minister that we must also improve the way we do policing because criminals are advance now. So, we can’t do policing the old way. We need to have new equipments that can be deployed. For instance, if you police borders, our borders can be very long distances.
So, if you are just to rely on personnel you have to deploy thousands of people. So, you mitigate that by deploying equipment. In other countries, for instance, they use drones to be able to check what is happening on their borders and be able to get information. So, we are doing the same now. We are getting more equipment. But let me not say what Bheki Cele is ordering. He will say that himself. But we are going to do policing in the modern way so that the criminals are not ahead
of us. We must at all times be ahead of the criminals in the way we are policing. So, we are strengthening border management, working with communities there, deploying necessary equipment but everywhere else, we have to ensure that police are well-equipped and are visible because sometimes visible policing helps. We saw during the World Cup. There were police everywhere and that’s what we are going to do but we will make sure that they are well-resourced. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy President, your focus is clearly on rapid response plans in areas such as border, towns, townships and informal settlements as you alluded it now. Knowing that the scourge of brutal farmer’s attack has been taking place non-stop since 1994, in fact, the Human Rights Watch has described the general trend of escalating farm attacks since 1994 and noted a lack of government respond to them. Some of the statistics that were released by the Transvaal Agricultural Union I want to mention to this House, January -
18 attacks, two murders, February - 15 farm attacks, two murders, March - 17 farm attacks four murders, April – 8 farm attacks, six murders, May – 9 farm attacks, two murders, June – 12 farm attacks, 10 murders, July – 15 farm attacks, with four murders and up until 22 August, 10 farm attacks and two
murders. It’s not just murders that take place, and people that has been assaulted and the brutality that goes along with this, people being tortured for up to three and six hours at a time, burns with cooking oil. That’s what is taking place.

Mr Deputy President, knowing all these, what rapids response measures have you put in place to prevent and combat farm murders now being that not only human life but food security is hanging in the balance? I am now put it to you, Deputy President, but it is not only white farmers that are being affected by this but farmers of all colour that’s being tortured and humiliated and killed as a result of the crime that is escalating. You can please answer that. Thank you, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: When we had a discussion with the Minister of Police about crime in the country, there are a number of areas that we asked team to particularly look at. Farm attacks and murderer were one of them that we are asked him to look at. Zama zamas was one of the areas that we said he should look at. If you look at what is happening now already with zama zamas, they are moving in a big way at the police. We expect that they will do the same with the attack not only on farmers but on people who live in those farming
communities because often people think that we are just concern about farmers. No, we are concern about everybody because these murders and attacks is also ordinary people work on the farms. They need to be protected. So, this is something that the Minister is working on. We will give you a detailed response on it because the Minister have been involved in what we call Operation Shanela. What is shanela in Afrikaans? In English is to sweep. So, in other words, it’s taking no nonsense. They want to clean, deal with crime decisively.

You are quite right that the efforts that we put in fighting crime in urban areas should be extended to the farming communities. I think it’s fair. That’s should be done and it is being done. We will get a report from the Minister. It’s just that sometimes, and you must bear with me, sometimes the way the police work, they don’t want you to talk about their operations in detail. So, sometimes is difficult to say they are going to do this or that because some of the things are planned for them to be ahead of the criminals. So, all you will find sometimes from the Minister of Police will be just a sentence that says we are attending to that and don’t want to ask for more because you may compromise their operations once you start telling what their planning is. But I can assure you
that the farming community is not forgotten. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy President, in light of alarming high crime rate in this country which seems to be spiralling out of control, is the Deputy President confident that SA Police Service is properly led with sufficient skills and knowledge of what needs to be done to tackle crime problem in this country? Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am not sure when you mean is properly led, you mean we have the right Minister or a right Commissioner. [Interjections.] Everything? [Interjections.] Yes, we do. [Interjections.] We have the right people. [Interjections.] Yes, we have the right people and they have a strategy. They have already given us the strategy. I can’t tell the details. The strategy is there. You will see, watch the space. You are going to see. We have the right people there. Thank you very much, hon member.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy President, the evidence is there that effective safety plans supported by well-trained accepted and respected lead officers especially in hotspots crime areas
contribute to the decrease of crimes as shown in the Western Cape statistics recently released.

Mr Deputy President, would you as the Leader of Government Business please be a brave leader and committed there to or either ignore over the ego of the Minister of Police and move to implement an effective safety plan, including the model of well-trained officers that can be trusted by the community to bring safety and resolving of crimes in the most dangerous areas of our country?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon member, as I said earlier, 10 000 already trained effectively. In fact, if I am correct, the President was at the parade not long ago of these officers. Those of you who watch TV must have seen these officers who were parading. Hon member, they are all newly trained those you saw. I think it was last week Friday. I am not sure. You saw them? [Interjections.] No, not AmaPanyaza, the newly trained ones, the 10 000. I will come to the AmaPanyaza later.

So, those have been trained and trained effectively. So, I have no doubt that you will get effective policing. They have been trained in modern equipment and everything else. But I
think we must also not despise AmaPanyaza. They are doing a good job. [Interjections.] Yes, in the spirit of community policing that’s what you need because most of them, hon members, they come from those communities. So, they are not hired elsewhere. There is nothing as good as people policing their own space. Something good about AmaPanyaza is that these are volunteers who are in their own space and doing everything in their own space. I think we should praise them actually.
Someone, Chairperson, was asking me why don’t we rollout these all over the country. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members. [Interjections.] I know that the issue is an exciting one.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: It is an exciting issue.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But let’s hear the response from the Deputy President.

conclude by saying I think fighting must always be a community effort. I think what is happening in Gauteng should really be replicated. You may call them with different names, Ntate Msimang. Maybe in the Western Cape, they might give them your
name. But I think it’s important to involve community. I see it in that line.

The issue of what happens if they do something wrong, remember, this is collaborative effort with the state. It’s not just people who are running around there, because this is a programme design by the premier, it’s a collaboration with the state. That’s why the police must find the way of working with them like they are doing with Community Policing Forums. There are sometimes police who think we are a single national police, we don’t want these people. But fighting crime has to be a collaborative effort at all times. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Question 16:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, when we responded to a similar question in the National Assembly in March of this year, I think it was on 23 March, we gave a response that I'll probably also try and reiterate here. In my view, Parliament has not refused to respond to the specific allegations, we must underline that it has not refused.

Instead, Parliament embarked on a process which was subsequently concluded in line with the Rules of Parliament
and I also want to underline, the conclusion, because I know there are people who think this matter must go on and on. It was concluded that in December last year. It may well be that as is their right, some members of this House do not agree with that determination of Parliament or on Phala Phala what the Parliament ultimately reached.

Such reservation or unhappiness, as they may exist, can and should be dealt with within the Rules and ambit of Parliament or the Rules of Parliament. As the Hon members may be aware, the SA Revenue Service, the Public Protector and the SA Reserve Bank have dealt with the Phala Phala allegations and issued statements in terms of their findings and I think all members here are aware of that. Those findings I don't have to tell you about them.

So, let me once again state that this government and our President Cyril Ramaphosa, have committed to be subjected to all processes by our constitution and the laws of the country. We reiterate our support for the Rules of the National Assembly as agreed and adopted by the House. We also reiterate our support for all Chapter 9 and Chapter 10 institutions and other law enforcement agencies who continue to hold those in power accountable.
We further emphasise that the state and law enforcement agencies must be allowed and be given enough space to complete their work without undue pressure or any form of interference, lastly, when they are done, we should accept the results because I know there are those when work is done they start saying, no, hey, these people are biased, whatever. Let’s respect these institutions. In any case, it’s us Members of Parliament who have established these institutions. Let's allow them to operate independently. Once they make their findings, we should accept that. Thank you very much.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy President, both the Public Protector and the SA Reserve Bank have exonerated Mr Ramaphosa from any wrongdoing relating to Phala Phala. This is so even no one disputes that there was undeclared foreign currency in his farm, and that the independent panel appointed by Parliament found that he had a prima facie case to answer the perception created, therefore, that the state institutions are being used to cover up criminality by the head of state which is the ultimate form of state capture.

The current Public Protector is unashamedly the President's Protector, and so are other state institutions. As Deputy President, what risk does hallowing out-of-state institutions
in this way pose to the sustainability of our democracy and the rule of law? Thank you, Chairperson.

you, Chairperson, Hon member, maybe let me reiterate what I said earlier that once you appoint institutions, you give them powers. They operate independently. I don't think it's fair to come back and say, no, we don't like your findings. What about if they had said the President Is wrong? Are you going to be happy? Yes, you are going to say, Viva Public Protector! So, that's where the problem is. These are independent institutions. Let's allow them to do their work. They didn't consult the ANC, they didn't consult the President, they did their work, and they are now saying, we are done, here are the results. So let's not use perceptions. Let's use facts because perceptions can mislead you. The facts are there before us.
They have concluded their work and let’s accept it. That will be my view. Thank you very much.

Mr M R BARA: Chairperson, Deputy President, you often tell us you are committed to stopping corruption, fighting crime and holding those in power accountable to rebuild the hope and trust of the nation. That is, however, against the backdrop of yourself being involved in a controversial situation recently.
Against the backdrop of the Phala Phala and many other debacles, the DA has proposed a new Chapter 9 institution, a Scorpion 2.0 but it will need the ANC to vote with us to pass the Bill. As the chair of the Cabinet Committee on Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, will you be supporting this initiative, or would you opt for properly funding and capacitating the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, to ensure that we restore the credibility of our criminal justice institutions? Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, thank you very much, Hon member, for the questions. The funding of institutions is our priority. It's not only the NPA, we want all law enforcement agencies to be funded properly and we are doing so. They have all been funded to the extent that the fiscus, can provide those resources.

Yes, the issue of corruption is a top one. Our agenda as the government and you, as Members of Parliament, must hold all of us accountable. You just indicated that there is a controversial issue that affects me and I'm sure you are free to call me to Parliament and put it to me what that controversial issue is, then deal with it.
We, as leaders, are not afraid to be accountable. That's what we should do, but what members should not do is join gossip. You said journalists live on gossip because people run and buy newspapers, you said it here. No, this is a Hon House and a Hon House must not reduce itself to gossip.

When the leaders are here, put the facts before them. The Hon Deputy President, we hear you are a thief. You stole this. Not gossip. Let's be accountable properly. Thank you very much, Hon ... [Inaudible.] ...

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, Hon Chairperson, Hon Deputy President, what assurance can you give South Africans that it will not become a common cause for senior officials to be granted a remission of their sentences? Thank you, Hon Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry, Hon Hadebe said, senior what?

Mr N M HADEBE: Senior officials.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Senior officials like who?
Mr N M HADEBE: Senior government officials.



Mr N M HADEBE: Maybe let me repeat my question.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I'm not sure of any senior government official who was granted a remission. I thought it was people who were in prison. The President, working with the Minister of Justice, came to a conclusion that there are certain categories of prisoners who should be released and I don't think they wanted to release some government official or some, they said, not prisoners ... people who were charged and because there are people who are in prison at the moment, some with very minor charges and there isn’t even space, so they had to come to a conclusion that in their view, this category of prisoners can now be released. I don't know of any government official among them. Thank you very much, Chair.


Nk L C BEBEE: Ngibonge, Sihlalo weNdlu, ngibingelele uSekela Mongameli, namhlanje ngeke ngisho ngesiZulu ngoba ngifuna
bacaciseleke abakule Ndlu kanye naye lo obuzo lo mbuzo ukuthi kuhamba kanjani.

Deputy President, it is clear that despite the investigations and findings that have cleared the President, there are those who are continuing to use the Phala Phala matter as a political and electioneering tool to try and score cheap political points. These detractors have nothing concrete to say against the President who has fully co-operated and continued to co-operate with all investigations and continues to respect the Constitution and the law of the Republic.


Sekela Mongameli wami, ...



Now, what measures is our government putting in place to ensure that all citizens, particularly Members of Parliament, understand that we are a constitutional democracy where we all have to respect the institutions established by our democracy, such as Chapter 9 institutions. They respect the rule of law and will raise awareness that our country has appropriate measures to fight and finally defeat crime and corruption.

Injalo, Baba, ngiyazi uyiphendulile. Ngiyabonga.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mama, I can't agree with you more. You've just covered me. Yours doesn't need a response because ...

... injalo. Injalo.



We have appointed institutions; we must respect them when they come with findings. We accept the findings of the Public Protector. We will accept the findings of the Sars. We’ve accepted the finding of the other one, the Reserve Bank, we accept all of them because they did this with integrity. They were transparent, they investigated. We are with you, Mama.
Thank you very much.

Question 17:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, on the 16th August this year, the Minister of Police appeared before the Portfolio Committee on Police to brief members of the
committee on this matter. Let me reiterate what he said before the portfolio committee and I want to quote him. He said the following:

The convoy of the Deputy President normally has seven cars. Six from the SA Police Service, SAPS, and one from the SA National Defence Force which in most cases is a medical car. The Deputy President was in the convoy, but not on the crime scene where two of his cars pulled off to deal with that matter.

This is how he answered it. Hon Chairperson, now I want to confirm that indeed it is true that I was not there. For the cars that carry the President and the Deputy President do not stop for anything. I am sure members know that. We do not even stop in a red robot. So, it would have been very strange if my car had stopped there and I am busy watching what was happening. I would have been very strange.

So, when I became aware of the incident I was actually home already, because the car does not stop. For you do not see what is happening. Hon Chairperson, but perhaps just to be fair, this matter is now in court and it may be very difficult to engage on it. It is sub judice. You know when people appear
in court and are busy saying things, it is a problem. However members can be assured that I was not there on the scene. That is really what we want to clarify. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, seven cars filled with little stormtroopist to keep you safe, I wanted to ask you: What are you so afraid of?

Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.



Mr M I RAYI: Hon Chairperson I rise in terms of Rule 64 of the NCOP Rules. Matters pending before the courts: No delegate may reflect on the merits of any matter on which a judicial decision is pending.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Oh yes!


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson,
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I hope as the hon Rayi has said, we are going to look carefully at the boundaries and so on.
However, I will allow you to speak.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The key word in that rule is: Merits and it would serve the member well to first listen to my question before he jumps to any conclusions.

May I just repeat my initial phrase?

Seven cars filled with little stormtroopist to protect you, Deputy President.

My question initially would have been: What are you so afraid of? And then I remembered that the people out there are hungry, they are left in the dark, they are jobless and they are not stupid. They know that you have been governing this country for the last 30 years.

So then I remembered that you have every reason to be afraid of the public. Answer my question!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis! Hon Michalakis!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Yes, Chair!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: This really has been a problem for a while. We do not want to give this House a bad name. To give the impression that there is suppression that you cannot speak if you want and cannot be forthright and so on and so forth.

However really there is a problem of using the time allocated for posing questions to make speeches. So I am going to appeal to members. I will come back to the issue later on, but I am just saying, please, please, let us avoid that kind of a route.
However, before we proceed, please let us hear the hon Nyambi. On what point are you rising, hon Nyambi?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Chairperson, I think you have been very generous and you have handled the issue properly. The Deputy President was very generous to just clarify exactly as the rule read by the hon Rayi.

We are hon members and we have nothing to lose. The issue is in court, the Deputy President is not going anywhere. Any other day, once the court has pronounced we will have ample
time to do justice to the question. However, what we are trying to achieve now, it will be a sad day when as hon members and an arm of state as a legislature are trying to undermine our very same rules. For Rule 64 if we read it carefully and not selective, we will understand. However, after the generous comment that has been made by the Deputy President, Chairperson, my humble plea is that let us agree that it is against Rule 64 to deal with the matter that is still in court and we do not have a final verdict of the matter. Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, hon Labuschagne.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point are you rising, hon Labuschagne?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: On the freedom of speech and the fact that there are rules.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, just repeat that again. “Ja.” I could not hear what you are saying.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I am saying: I am rising on a point of the freedom of speech and the rule that writes the freedom of speech.

I want to start first by saying that if the hon Michalakis could not ask this question, then the Questions Office should not have put it on the Question Paper to start with.

So, could you as the Chairperson bring the administration of this House in order, because it is the third question in this term or this year. It is the third time this is happening that we have the same problem. So please sort this out.

Secondly, there is no rule in this book that says what you can say and not say in the two minutes that is allowed to ask a question. It is also now a practice that when the ANC members stand up they can say and rule anything that they want to and none of the presiding officers the one close to them as the hon Nyambi is trying to solve this.

Today you are not too bad Chairperson, but with all due respect, the ANC members can say what they want and they can protect each other and when the DA or any other party in this
House stands up rules are made and the presiding officers in the Chair make rules that are not in this Rule book.

So, this is undermining the democracy in this House. The presiding officers are responsible for that. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, there is always the danger that we stray on to debating a matter even before the matter itself is put on the table. I am going to allow the hon Michalakis to briefly put forward the question.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, my question would not also relate to the incident itself. It relates to the Deputy President and where he was. So I will not touch on the merits of the case.

Now Deputy President, you indicated that you were at home when you became aware of the incident. It is interesting how your version changed from what it initially was to be in line to what the Minister of Police said, but: Are you then saying that when you found about the incident you were at home that at no time during your journey was the incident communicated on the radio frequency in your car because you would have heard that and what did you do then when you became aware of
this incident to ensure that action is taken? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Those matters are raised in court. Yes.



No. The same matters are raised in court. I think the hon member is not listening.

Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order please, hon members!

Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, on a point of order, please!


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let us hear what the Deputy President have to say.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I am saying the hon member wanted to know where I was and I said I was home.
Now the hon member goes back to the scene of where the car was and the radio. These are matters that are in court.



That is why the second paragraph of my response I said yes I was at home first time I heard. However, because now this matter is in court, let us not go into it. For those are the same questions that are asked in court.

Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, thank you very much for your response. Hon Deputy President, yes we do respect the sub judice of the matter.

Hon Deputy President the ANC-led government I believe is a responsible government.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! Order, hon members. Hon Shaikh, just a second.

I must say and I have said this many, many times in the past that there is nothing wrong with a bit of hackling here and there and so on. The nature of the House debate in politics. However, there is definitely something wrong when you hackle
and make noise to such an extent that we cannot hear a member putting forward his or her own views or as in this instance asking a question. The hon Shaikh.

Ms S SHAIKH: Once again thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, my question is: Does government especially the SA Police Service, have programmes and platforms that are geared towards sensitising the Presidential Protection Services on the rights of citizens and how to better interact with citizens while ensuring that the safety of their political principals are ensured. Thank you very much.


suggest we deal with it some other time. I will tell you why: All these matters are coming up in court. Same thing.

The guys are being asked have you been trained and what training? We are now going to be a court of law today.

Hon members, I think let us leave this matter. It will be discussed at the right time because we are straddling very thin to what the court is doing.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson and Deputy President, part of your duties and responsibilities is to promote social cohesion and Chair the Justice Crime Prevention and Security Committee. You were appointed by the President to lead peace missions on the continent. Your Presidential Protection Services are well aware of your duties and responsibilities. Surely they are well aware that their actions directly impacts on your social and public image. Knowing all of this: How is it possible that these members acted the way they did if they knew that you would not condone their actions and would you have acted in public if the incident was not recorded? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I think hon members are not listening. Maybe I should have said it in Afrikaans. It is just that I cannot speak Afrikaans.

Asseblief tog!


English :

I wanted to say in Afrikaans that this matter is before the court.
I know it is the kantoor [office].


Hon member, this matter can come back after the court is done with it. For when you deal with the matter that is in court


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy President, just a second.

Hon Du Toit, I see you want to speak.

On what point are you rising?


Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect to the Deputy President, the question that my colleague hon De Bruyn posed does not speak about the merits of the case at all. It speaks about the integrity of the Deputy President to an incident that took place and is currently in court but the question that he needs to answer ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Du Toit I asked you a question: On what point are you rising?
Mr S F DU TOIT: The Deputy President is avoiding to answer the question with regard to his integrity.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, please proceed.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, let me conclude. I listened to the hon member. He is talking about my duties on the continent. Do these members know this? Talking about the members again and I am saying, they are in court. We now want to be the second court. Can we allow the real court to finish the issue. Then this honourable House can come and ask me any question. You may even ask me what I ate that day before I left home. It is alright. However, do not ask about them because they are in court. Once we start to say these members this and that, you are straddling into that issue. Let us just leave it there.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, this demonstrates how crime and violence are and everyday experience for many South Africans at the hands of the Police.

Any support offered to the victims and their families? Thank you, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moletsane, can you just repeat your question again. Hon Moletsane I am requesting you to please restate your question.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, this demonstrates how crime and violence are and everyday experience for many South Africans at the hands of the Police.

My question is: Is there any support offered to the victims and their families? Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: This matter is sub judice.

Question 18:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Hon Chair, following the July 26 coup in Niger, South Africa publicly expressed its condemnation and reiterated its commitment to, and support of various AU policy decisions which expressly reject change of government by unconstitutional means. We continue to work within the AU system, especially the continental bodies, Peace and Security Council, of which we are a member. Which has intervened in
countries where there have been coups by suspending their membership from the Security Council.

There are two issues that warrant our consideration. The first is the complexity of the situation in Niger. Although it neither justified the coup nor suggests that it is representative of the overwhelming opinion of the people of Niger, parts of the civilian population have publicly expressed support for that change. Niger’s neighbours have also expressed themselves some in ways that are unprecedented. For example, Mali and Bukina Faso have warned that they will consider any external military intervention in Niger as a declaration of war against them.

For their part, even though they are not members of Economic Community of West African States, Ecowas, Chad, Algeria and Algeria, who both share borders with Niger, have expressed opposing views on the use of force. So, there are different reactions. All this suggests that discretion is a better part of virtue. We should privilege diplomacy and more diplomacy. The second issue that warrants our consideration is that the phenomenon coups, is becoming more accentuated than it was at least 20 years ago in the continent.
It is worth mentioning that since August 2020, the continent has had eight coups. This being in Mali, Guinea, Sudan, China, Faso, Niger and now recently Gabon. Mali has had two coups in nine months. First on August 18 2020, and the second in
May 24 2021. Bukina Faso has also had a coup in eight months, January 2022 and another one on the 30 September of the same year. This backs a fundamental question which all of us must ask. What are the driving factors for these coups we are witnessing today in which the countries in the continent do this? And do these factors obtain what should be done to avoid the abuse of military coups? It’s something that we are busy looking at.

The last part was on Sudan. South Africa is presently not engaged in peace initiatives in Sudan. We are nevertheless committed to the search for a peaceful solution to the conflict in Sudan and stand ready to provide our good offices to this act. On July 23 this year, President Cyril Ramaphosa met with Mr Malik Agar Nganyoufa, the Deputy President of the Transitional Sovereign Council of Sudan, to discuss what could be done on the ongoing conflict. But we are definitely involved in South Sudan, where the President has appointed me as his special envoy, and I’ve just returned from South Sudan last week, Friday.
In South Sudan there is ceasefire. They are now preparing for elections in 2024 December. So, I had an opportunity to meet with all parties, including the President, and they are all committed to peace. There is a revitalised agreement that they are following. There is a bit of tension because other parties thought the time frame may be short, but we’ve agreed less work towards peace so that South Sudan can have its election and begin to focus on development rather than conflict. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much Chairperson. Deputy President, thank you very much for your response. However, in addition to the meeting with the AU’s Peace and Security Council, has the executive met with the United Nations Security Council regarding the challenges in Africa with African solutions to African challenges? As we have experienced, external intervention is not always in the interest of African peoples, e.g., the ongoing crisis in Libya to date. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much Chairperson and thank you ambassador Dangor ... [Laughter.]
... hon Dangor. No, you are quite right. In fact, we have agreed that Africa must have African solutions. Let me give an
example. For instance, on South Sudan there is a C5 which is ourselves, South Africa, Kenya, Egypt, Burkina Faso, Djibouti and Tanzania? But what has happened is that the leaders have agreed that the African leaders must come together to deal with these issues. In fact, the President Ramaphosa chairs the meetings of the C5 appointed by the ... [Inaudible.] ... They are busy now focusing on these issues. Not only will they end in South Sudan, but they will look at the other places.

But in South Sudan in particular, hon Dangor, the C5 is seized with the matter. But the other agencies are there as well.
When I was in South Sudan, I had the opportunity to meet with the United Nation mission in South Sudan, so they are already there. The AU is there and many other bodies, but they. respect the fact that South Africa is taking a lead on this matter. We did have an opportunity to talk about representation in the Security Council, but as you may be aware that ... [Inaudible.] ... is meeting now in September and the President is going there with Minister Pando and there will be dealing with these issues. But I am confident that we should have elections in South Sudan by end of next year to bring about lasting peace. Thank you very much.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you Chair. Deputy President, ...

 ... ke mekgwa efe ya go nna le seabe mo rephaboliking ya Niger ...


 ... as the assert they are independent from colonial France. What measures have been put in place to ensure that other African states also receive support as they free themselves from colonial powers? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Motsamai, thank you for the question. If you listened earlier, I said that there were different responses. There were those who are saying no, these soldiers are wrong. We must go and intervene a militarily. The others were saying not. South Africa’s position has not been to encourage military intervention. But we are very clear that coming into power through coups is not in line with our values and the values of the AU. So, we are not saying the people of Niger do not deserve change and we saw them in the streets ululating happy. They want change. But the principle is that change should come through democratic means. I am sure you have heard that the general who was leading a coup has immediately said he is going to allow. elections so that the power goes to civilians.
We do want changes in Africa. The wind of change is blowing, but it must be through democratic means. That’s why the ceasefire in South Sudan is going to elections. So, it should be in all other countries. So South Africa stand ready to be counted to those who support change but change through democratic processes of elections so that the people must decide their destiny.

So, we are not going to condemn the people. When they ululate. When there is a coup. But we must be able to reiterate the fact that that’s not the way in which change should come. We can see that there are many other countries in Africa where they should be changed, but we will support if those regimes call for democratic elections. We stand ready to support.
Thank you very much.


Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you hon Chairperson. Thank you, Deputy President. How are these interventions or responses, as the hon Deputy President has put, not indicative of a deviation. from our non-alignment international relations policy we took in the Russia-Ukraine conflict? Thank you, hon Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am not sure if hon Hadebe is referring to South Sudan. You will recall that with
respect to Ukraine, we took a decision not to take side in the conflict. That was our position. And you know why? Because we supported peace. We said let the conflict be resolved through negotiations. When the President went with the other Presidents, they were going to edge both President Putin and President Zelinsky to go back to negotiations. It is a similar stance we are taking in the continent. We support peace. We want these parties to come negotiate, go to elections and let the will of the people be done. That’s what we’re supporting. So, I don’t think hon Hadebe, that there is a contradiction on what we are doing in the continent and the stance we took on Ukraine. It’s the same. It’s a move for peace everywhere.
South Africa has always stood for peace. I think that’s what we are doing. Thank you very much.

Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, Chairperson. In spite of his ambassadorial background, or perhaps because of it, Mr Dango’s question seems to be encouraging selective diplomacy. But Mr Mashatile, your government seems to be cherry picking when to raise its voice and when to turn a blind eye. And this leads to the very dangerous situation of confusion among our foreign partners, where no one knows what our foreign policy anchor is anymore. It’s certainly not human rights. Deputy President, can you tell us whether the Cabinet has criteria to determine
when to condemn an assault on democracy and when not? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Are you worried about a specific place? Are you worried about a specific place? Okay. No, I if you were listening very well, when I started, I said we condemned the coup in Gabon. I said that. Now in Ukraine there was no coup. There was no coup.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members. We can’t have a dialogue with the Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am trying to answer.
... [Laughter.] ... In Ukraine there was war, or there is war. And we went in and said negotiate because we want peace. We said negotiate. We are saying the same. That’s why we are succeeding in in South Sudan. We said negotiate. Now they’ve put their arms aside. They are moving towards ... In fact, already in South Sudan they have what they call a transitional government of national unity where all the forces have now coalesced, and they are moving towards setting up a fully- fledged democratic state. That’s what South Africa must always support. Whether is in Europe, in Africa or in the West, let’s always stand for peace. Thank you very much, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, allow me at this point to thank the Deputy President for availing himself for the oral question session. And that indeed this is the way we would like to see it going into the future. That when such a responsibility arises, the response should indeed be a positive one. Just to say hon members, as we put our hands together for the Deputy President, we will after this have a 10-minute comfort break, reconvene and finish our business.

Comfort break at 16:00



Business Resumes at 16:11



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, in terms of the Judges, Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act of 2001, Constitutional Court judges and judges are entitled to annual salaries and such allowances or benefits as determined by the President from time to time.

After considering the recommendation of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-bearers, similarly, in terms of the Magistrates Act of 1993, magistrates are entitled to annual salaries and such allowances or benefits as determined by the President, after considering the recommendation of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-bearers.

Hon Chair, on the 6th of July 2023, the two draft notices and schedules containing the President's determination were submitted to Parliament for approval before publication and were referred to the committee for consideration and report.
On the 5th of September 2023, the committee was briefed on the draft notice and scheduled as follows:

The Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-bearers recommended a 3,8% increase for all public office-bearers with effect from the 1st of April 2022 including for all judges and magistrates. The president, having considered the serious economic challenges of the country and the independent commission's recommendation, has determined a 3% increase to the salaries of constitutional judges and judges of other courts, and for the magistrates.

Hon Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the First Order, which is the draft notice and schedule determining the rate with effect from the 1st of April 2022 at which salaries, allowances and benefits are payable to magistrates annually for approval by Parliament in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act 1993 recommends that the Council approves the set draft notice and schedule.

In terms of the Second Order, hon Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice having considered the draft notice and schedule determining the rate with effect from the 1st of April 2022 at which salaries, allowances and benefits are
payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually for approval by Parliament in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges, Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act 2001, recommends that the Council approves the said draft notice and schedule. Thank you, Chair.

Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report on Draft Notice and Schedule tabled in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually, dated 5 September 2023.



Report on Draft Notice and Schedule tabled in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually, dated 5 September 2023 accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report on Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001),
determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court Judges and Judges annually, dated 5 September 2023.



Report on Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court Judges and Judges annually, dated 5 September 2023 accordingly adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Business of the day concluded.


The Council adjourned at 16:20.



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