Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 07 Jun 2023


No summary available.


Watch: Plenary


The House met at 15:00.

House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon members there is only one item on today’s Order Paper and it is questions addressed to Ministers in Cluster 5, Economics. Hon members there are four questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.

The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness among others have been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the Executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Now hon members the first question today has been asked by the ... [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, may I request you indulgence just to inform this august House that yesterday and the day before yesterday there was a state visit by the President of Portugal. Thereafter, this morning there was a Cabinet meeting. So, it is not deliberate that Ministers are not physically here. All Ministers ... [Interjections.]

... lindani kaloku ndithethe.



Therefore, Ministers ... [Interjections.]


Mr M N PAULSEN: Tell us about the R600k.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order members, can I listen. I have noted some hands and I will call you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let us allow the Chief Whip of The Majority Party to speak.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Therefore, House Chair, all Ministers who are expected to respond to questions are online because they were unable to make time. But they are all going to respond and our Rules do allow both virtual and physical. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The hon Macpherson, followed by hon Singh, followed by hon Ntlangwini.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, the Chief Whip’s story doesn’t hold water because there is a Cabinet Minister, Minister De Lille who is here, but there are no ANC Ministers that are here. So, her excuse about Cabinet doesn’t hold water.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair you know, this is not an optional requirement for Ministers to be here. We have the Minister of Small Business Development who is learning about communism in China today and we have other Ministers who are sitting in Pretoria who were at a meeting with the President this morning.

Ministers’ duties are to this House first. That is who they are accountable to. They are not accountable to the Executive. If we can make the effort to be here House Chairperson, so can Ministers. I would really ask you to take this to the Programming Committee. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. No, wait guys wait. Hon Singh, it’s your opportunity please. I will respond.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson we hear what the Chief Whip is saying. But can the hon Chief Whip by tomorrow give us a list of all those Ministers that are in that meeting, because I don’t really believe that every Minister who was supposed to be answering questions here is in a meeting in Pretoria.

I think we have got an unwritten Rule hon Chairperson ...

 ... Hhayibo! Hhayibo! Hhayibo! Hhayibo! Thulani umsindo phela. Thulani umsindo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Who is that hon Singh? Who is disturbing you now?

Mr N SINGH: Hon Papo, he likes me.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Hon members, can we listen to the members as they speak. You have a right to speak. Speak hon Singh.

Mr N SINGH: I think hon Chair and colleagues we have an unwritten Rule here given the circumstances that we faced in the past where we couldn’t hear Ministers who were responding virtually. We had to call their responses off, we had to ask them to - we have an unwritten Rule that, whenever questions are asked which is once in three months or whatever it is, Ministers who are answering questions should be physically present and if they can’t hear what we are saying as Parliament, then we are wasting our time as Members of Parliament here. Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, the programme of Parliament is planned long in advance and Ministers are well aware of the programme of Parliament. The unplanned lie that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party came and portrayed to us today is so unprofessional in terms of how we need to do work of Parliament. Ministers need to come to the House to come and answer questions. This is where they account to, not to some other state visits.

The programme of Parliament is long planned ahead. So, for the Chief Whip of the Majority Party to come and spin some story here is ... [Interjections.]


MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M G Boroto): Morongwa ga a bolawe.


Ms E N NTLANGWINI: It is wrong we are not ... [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Ntlangwini ... [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Chair, I have raised my hand.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: [Inaudible] ... that is why you are even outside taking bribes because of this, you are lying.

Mr B A RADEBE: I am raising my hand on a point of order.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I cannot take that. I cannot take that House Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Chief Whip take your seat. No ... [Interjections.] Before I respond, I want to give to the Deputy Chief Whip. Deputy Chief Whip, please stand. No, I know what the Rules allow. Please allow us to be civil. The only thing is ...- yes hon Deputy Chief Whip.


much hon House Chairperson for the opportunity. I think as this House we did adopt Rules for virtual and hybrid sittings. The Ministers whenever they are online, they are still in the House because we adopted those Rules as this Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay.


House Chairperson, we cannot come to the House and discuss
allegations. Anyone who has anything against anyone, they must forward whatever they have to the relevant processes. Our business today is questions to the Economics Cluster Ministers. Can we proceed with that. Let us not be derailed by the unfounded allegations because anyone can be accused of anything. So, if there are people with proof, they must take it to the relevant ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No leave it at that, what I am going to say ... Hon members before I recognise you hon Kwankwa listen. I have been listening to you all members, the only deviation that I heard about the bribery. That one I am going to follow it up, I am going to check the Hansard and I am going to come with a ruling on it. Mr Kwankwa.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, I must not be confused with the ANC because I am dressed in yellow today. But Chairperson ...


... niyasisukela sizihlelele.



Ministers whether they are here virtually or physically as long as they are present in the House to answer questions it
should not be a problem. I think the attempt was to pre-empt opposition parties because you thought we might have an issue. We are here to deal with substantive matters, they must answer questions.


Nokuba basezulwini okanye balapha eNdlwini ...


... as long as they are able to respond.


MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M G Boroto): Ntate Malatsi?

Mr M S MALATSI: House Chair I am rising a different point of order which is the conduct of hon Papo. Every time there is a speaker on the podium from the opposition, his behaviour is always unparliamentary, gestures, intimidation. Can you please address that. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, you see this heckling of yours you don’t allow people to speak. Allow people to speak and I will respond. Hon members, I think hon Kwankwa and hon Dlakude have partially responded to what I
would have said to say, we have a hybrid model. As long as we have that report that Ministers are available on the virtual platform, we will accept that although we know that as Chief Whips we have been encouraging that whenever we are having a question session, we would appreciate if members of the Executive are physically in the House. But this is a different thing that the Chief Whip is saying and to continue to now talk about the Chief Whip on allegations, that matter is not going to rest. I will check on it and I will come back and rule on it.

For now hon members let us also remember that, sometimes when the Minister is not in the House, we have a Rule 138(3) that allows even Deputy Ministers to respond. That can be given to them. I know it is not good for you to see the chairs like this, I think the Chief Whip was trying to explain and we will keep on talking about it because the Chief Whips know, they have been talking about it. Hon Macpherson, I am not going to go back to this. I think I have ruled. I am now going to allow the first question to proceed. Thank you.

Hon members the first question is the question by the hon S T Xego asked to the Minister of Tourism. The hon the Minister.

Question 250:
The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Hon Chairperson, hon members, yes, indeed, the acting appointments over a long period of time in the entity, added to the instability of the entity. The previous South African Tourism board, headed by Adv Mojanku Gumbi, commenced a process to call vacancies at SA Tourism, SAT, and that, particularly in relation to the recruitment of a permanent CEO. However, my predecessor, the former Minister Lindiwe Sisulu, in 2021, did not concur with the appointment recommended to her, and that led to us having an Acting CEO in the entity for almost one and half years. That process led to the appointment of the Chief Quality Assurance Officer and the Chief Operating Officer. At that time, we did have a permanent CFO.

Before January 2023, the CFO resigned and we had two Acting CFOs. Until today, we have an Acting CFO. Four months into the term of the new board, in January 2023, the new board then decided to start a recruitment process. Please note that all of these things were happening around the Tottenham Hotspurs deal, which ultimately led to dissolution of the board.
I put a temporary moratorium on recruitment of executives of SA Tourism, so that I could familiarise myself with the developments. Subsequently, going forward, in a meeting I held with the SA Tourism board on Monday 29 May, I was informed that they are consulting a recruitment company to fill the posts of chief executive officer, chief financial officer, chief strategy officer, chief conventions bureau, chief marketing officer, and also head of the Internal Audit Unit.
These posts will now be advertised.


Organisational stability at SA Tourism requires active participation by all parties, including the Minister’s oversight role, the board overseeing the affairs of the entity and the executive management providing operational leadership.

I dissolved the former board by way of a notice in the Gazette and appointed three persons in term of section 16(b) of the Act, to manage the affairs of the board until the appointment of the new board, for which we have advertised already.

I continue to exercise oversight over SA Tourism. I have also recommended a process to review the service-level agreement, SLA, with SA Tourism, to regulate the relationship between the department and SA Tourism. So, the purpose of the SLA is to
govern the relationship between the Minister, the board and the executive in order to facilitate compliance with laws, prescripts, as well as adherence to corporate governance purposes. I thank you.

Mr D M STOCK: Hon Chair, Minister, when is the five positions in the executive management at SA Tourism, which includes chief executive officer and the chief financial officer being filled and what process and measures are in place to ensure this is properly done? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TOURSM: Hon Chair, hon member, yes, indeed, like I have just said, SA Tourism entity has a panel of three recruitment companies to be used for this purpose. The consultation with the recruitment company has begun and they will be advertising the posts soon. I will get a date as to when. I know the posts will be advertised soon.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon House Chair, my apologies and your indulgence to keep my camera off. My signal is not very strong. Just so that it is clear and the Minister has just admitted that there is a lack of stability within SA Tourism, and this can be attributed to the absence of those permanent executive managers that she spoke about. How does the Minister
reconcile this glaring absence of this managerial leadership and the principles of physical prudence and economic viability, particularly in the light of the controversy surrounding the Tottenham Hotspurs deal, and allegations of corruption against the current Acting CEO of SA Tourism, who you have kept on, despite the knowledge of such allegations of corruption? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TOURSM: Hon Chair, we are dealing with a lot of allegations of corruption. In fact, the entity has a whistle blower hotline. For the past three years, all the calls that came through about alleged corruption in the entity was never attended to.

Since the new board came on, we received another 13 allegations of corruption in the entity. My advice and the board has followed it, was to turn to the SIU. Adv Mothibi has agreed to second two officials from the SIU to investigate every allegation of corruption, including allegations of corruption in the supply chain management process. Thank you.

Mr A MATUMBA: Hon Chair, Minister, when Mr Tim Harris resigned from Parliament as a DA Member of Parliament, you appointed him to work in your Cape Town Mayoral office. Don’t you think
that your passed relationship with Mr Tim Harris at your mayoral office, his relationship with your advisor at Wesgro and his relationship with Ms Kholeka Zama at Wesgro will further deepen a lack of stability and create bad corporate governance for SA Tourism, given that the interim board is run by four members, which is him, Ms Zama Kholeka, Vincent Zwelibanzi Mntambo and the departmental representative?

The MINISTER OF TOURSM: Hon Chairperson, the answer is no. People were appointed on the basis of their experience and their qualifications that were verified. We put the three members of the board together to have one with finance experience; Ms Kholeka Zama is a chartered accountant; Mr Tim Harris has experience in tourism and also experience in economics and his CV is there for everybody to see. Mrs Zwelibanzi Mntambo, the other board member, used to be the DG for Gauteng province.

So, I am totally, totally confident that they do have the experience and the integrity to manage the board on a caretaker level and on an interim basis. Already, with the cleaning-up process of SAT - because I have inherited a mess there, it’s a mess – they have been assisting me to help the department to clean up SAT.
We have advertised for the new board. Once the new board comes on, they will be able to continue with a more stable SAT that these current board members had been able to progress towards. I thank you.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, with reference to your concern regarding the conduct of the board, in respect of Tottenham Hotspurs sponsorship matter, I would like to how and what consequence management measures the implicated board members will be facing and when?

The MINISTER OF TOURSM: Hon Chair, my apologies, I did not get the last part of the question. Can the hon member repeat?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Can you repeat, because you had your moment. [Interjections.] You can repeat.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, my last question was that I would like to how and what consequence management measures the implicated board members will be facing and when.

The MINISTER OF TOURSM: Hon Chair, certainly, we would have loved to go that way, in terms of the investigations that are
being done by the SIU. If any of the previous board members were implicated, we will certainly pursue that. We are looking at the process of consequence management within the organisation itself. That need to be driven by the CEO. We had an Acting CEO for more than 18 months.

So, certainly, with the investigations by the SIU, there will be consequent management for anybody alleged to be involved in any form of wrong doing or corruption. Thank you.

Question 270:

very much, House Chair and good afternoon hon members. I would like to contextualise my reply with a brief explanation of South Africa’s overall trade strategy. We are a member of the World Trade Organisation which provides guaranteed access to markets across the world based on what is called the most favoured nation principle.

In addition to this, we have preferential access to a number of markets on either negotiated term or by the unilateral decision of the other partner trading country. Our most important focus now is to develop the African Continental Free Trade Area as the basis for long-term growth in trade. In this
regard, I am pleased to inform this House that at the recent meeting of the African trade Ministers held in Kenya the trade offer of South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Eswatini and Lesotho was accepted. The offer includes all products that we will begin opening up to preferential trade with all the African Continental Free Trade Area, AfCFTA, partner countries. This, hon members, is a major step forward in our trade strategy.

In addition, we have two economic partnership agreements, one with the European Union and the other with the United Kingdom. And we have preferential trade agreements with four Latin American countries and some European countries not covered by the European Union, EU. This are negotiated and our access is little defined.

The United States provides unilateral access to its market through an Act of the US Congress, namely, the African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, as it is called. It is due to expire in 2025, and it has been renewed previously. We are working closely with a number of other African countries to have it renewed and extended again. As part of this effort, we have engaged across three fronts. First with members of the US administration, second with members of the US Congress and third, with members of the US Business Community. Last year,
in June, September, December and again this year January, I met with my trade counterpart who is the US’s trade representative. In addition, we have held virtual meetings most recently last week. I also met him in Washington DC last December with senior members of the US administration from other departments. In addition to trade they included agriculture, commerce and state. I was nominated by the other African trade Ministers to put forward the motivation for the extension of Agoa on behalf of all sub-Saharan African countries and to identify certain refinements to its terms. I did this at a meeting of members of the US Congress as well as members of the US administration.

We value the relationship with all our trading partners and the relationship with the United States is important as it accounts for significant trade and investment, and that help with jobs. Most of our exports to the United States is covered by the World Trade Organisation rules accounting for just over 80% of all our exports during 2021. The African Growth and Opportunity Act and another preference agreement accounts for just under 18% of our exports to the US.

The African Growth and Opportunity Act also assist to draw economic benefits for the neighbouring countries. So, we will
continue to work with the US administration and the US Congress to extend Agoa beyond the 2025 and this will be done in close collaboration with the other African countries. I thank you.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Minister, Agoa is the single most important trade agreement that South Africa has. We don’t have to do munch in return for it. The only requirement we have to meet is to establish or make continuous progress towards things like market-based economy and the rule of law amongst others. However, it can be revoked and not re-enacted if a country acts contrary to the United States’s national security or foreign policy interests. From the joint naval exercises with Russia to the oversees joint to Moscow to allowing a sanctioned Russian ship to dock in our naval base, it would seem your government is doing everything possible to invoke an exclusion from Agoa by antagonising America.

The ANC government has done everything possible to disprove its nonaligned position including breaking ranks with the nonaligned movement countries who have voted in the UN to condemn the Russian war in Ukraine except our own country.
Our position is so hard to explain that you are being despite to do so with the G7 countries everywhere so nonaligned then there would be no need to do so. Surely, supporting a murderous war criminal like Vladimir Putin is not worth locking us out of access from Agoa. Surely, the needs of South Africans come before the needs of the connected allegox and Russia.

I have it on good authority that your officials, yourself and the envoys previously sent to the US have made little to no progress on securing an extension to Agoa which will decimate our economy.

Minister, do you and the President take responsibility for the precarious position we find ourselves in over Agoa? Will you guarantee to this House that you will put the interests of South Africans first and secure our participation in Agoa over the interests of Russia? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, before you respond, let us also remind ourselves that Rule 142(6) says that a follow-up question should comprise of only one question. We are just reminding you, members. We are using Rules. The Minister has the right to respond correctly.

very much, House Chair. I think I recognised that the hon Macpherson has strong political views, and he had two minutes to express those view. My job is to put forward rationally and calmy the augments why the extension of Agoa would be good for sub-Saharan Africa. To point to the reasons why South Africa benefiting from access to Agoa is good for development in South Africa. And at the same time for us to maintain and strengthen investment links with the United States as well as a number of other countries across the world.

We live in an increasingly polarised world. South Africa’s single and overriding objective, and it define our national interest, is the creation of jobs in South Africa, opportunities for small business in our country. So, as we navigate all of the turbulent in global politics, we will keep our eyes on how to advance South Africa’s interests. I would look forward to get the support of all Members of Parliament from all different parties in securing the best deal that South African can have in obtaining access to markets across the world. That’s what we are going to be focussed on. I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you House Chairperson, Minister, there is no doubt that the United States of America, particularly is playing and adopting a bullying attitude given our neutral stance in the Russia-Ukraine war that is taking place. We know very well that it is not depending on trade and investment alone, but more importantly what the US want you to do is to be enemies of their enemies. What measures is your department putting in place to strengthen trade relationships with Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, nations? They are gaining momentum now with 19 countries applying to join. What measures does your department is putting to strengthen trade relations and have greater investments to and from the Brics countries so that in the event of the USA with their bullying conduct intends to strict us as far as Agoa trade so that it would not have any negative impact on the South African economy?

The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Thank you, hon Shaik Emam for your question. I would like to start by making the point that we are doing everything possible to deepen our trade relations with Brics countries. China in particular as well as India’s growth rates are very high and that can act as important markets for South African goods.
But given the size of our unemployment problem and the need to grow our economy, we do that not as an alternative to strengthen relations with the United States and the European Union, we are doing both of those. Most importantly, we are putting a lot of effort into strengthening economic relations with the rest of the African countries. I have spent time with African trade Ministers helping to craft the modalities for the implementation of an African Continental Free Trade Area.

If we look at the last number of years, our trade with the rest of the continent has grown. But what is really important about it is not only that we are selling product, but we are selling manufactured products with high levels of value addition which creates more jobs here in South Africa. It is true that countries across the world trade more with their neighbours. It is a legacy of colonialism that we have traded with countries outside the continent. We want to establish that deep economic relationship on the African continent and at the same time we are open to trade with the rest of the world. I thank you.

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. It is already a common knowledge that other factors other than pure trade risk and trade situation stand in a possible way of the Agoa agreement to be renewed. My question to the hon Minister is, is he confident that South Africa is indeed looking to the future and considering permanent arrangements beyond Agoa in the form of strategic trade and investment packages where free trade agreements as far as possible enhanced market accesses is concerned, reduces trade barriers and fostering innovation will be facilitated and high job creation could be created, all included wijth skills transfers, in other words, everything that is possible to make the renewal of this agreement a success? Thank you, hon Chair.

The MINISTER OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND COMPETITION: Thank you hon Mulder for that question. There are two components to the question. The first one points that we need to make to build the competitiveness of the South African economy. Skills development is key, resolving our infrastructure bottlenecks and challenges is important and securing economies of scale. In other words, large marks that we can sell our products in all what reduces the price of those products. We are putting a lot of efforts to that. The annual performance plan of the department is focussed on the kind of areas that you have pointed to, hon Mulder.

The second part of the questions is whether we are doing everything we can to try to ensure that we retain access to different markets including in the case of the United States. I want to recall that a number of years ago there was also a threat that South Africa will be removed from Agoa. This was during the time when we implemented certain policy measures relating to poultries - the poultry industry and the protection of jobs in South Africa. We engaged the United States on that matter. It was quite a lengthy negotiation. At times it was quite a bit of heated public comments but at the end of the day we were able to find each other and South Africa has subsequently secured and maintained access to Agoa. We hope we can constructively engage the United States government. Trade is a two-way story. We have incidentally investments in the United States granted it is a small percentage of the US investments in stock and the United States has significant investments in South Africa. But it is working through these things - the supply of key raw materials, critical minerals and a base for American investments on the African continent. All of these issues I am sure will be properly ventilated in the course of what I hope will be a friendly and a constructive conversation with a very important trade and investment partner. I thank you.
Ms J HERMANS: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, South Africa is by far the greatest beneficiary of the African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa, particularly in the citrus sector.
However, this largely depended on the United States of America extending the agreement. What efforts are in place to extend a similar type of agreement to other partners across the globe to avert the overdependence on one country for survival of the sector?


very much, hon Hermans for that question. Perhaps, let me contextualise access to the USA citrus markets in our global trade. It is an important market. The Unites States is at the moment the sixth largest destination for South Africa’s citrus products. It is in the top 10. We sell quite a bit about
R1,7 billion worth of citrus products from America. We have been trying to open up new markets for citrus because the South African citrus industry is an industry we can all be enormously proud of. It has grown, it has expanded, it has invested more, it has employed more people and it is taking the world by storm.

Yesterday, I had a meeting with the Portuguese President as part of the state visit. I offered the Portuguese President a South African made citrus fruit. He had some pieces of two oranges from South Africa and declared it to be very, very tasty indeed.

We have also opened a market in China, particularly for lemons and limes. That was relatively initiative. We are working across a number of other countries such as Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, India and others to open up markets to limit restrictions and to ensure that we have easy access. We hope that we can do this once as an alternative in addition to the access we can get in the United States. So, the more oranges we sell to the world, the more we spread joy and happiness.
Those who taste the South African orange doesn’t just love them, but we want the world consumers to taste more of our oranges, get more Vitamin C into their bodies and help us create more jobs here in South Africa. Thank you.

Question 294:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon, House Chair, good afternoon, hon members, let me add my voice of welcome to colleagues from Kenya as well. In response to hon Maotwe’s question, by way of some background, we would be familiar that South Africa’s energy system is drawn from coal, nuclear, hydro, solar, onshore wind, concentrated solar pump storage, and diesel fuelled open cycle gas turbines. Coal provides 80% of our energy, and currently renewables provide 7,3% of our energy. As far as our systems, we have 28 000 Km of high voltage lines in our transmission system and another 325 000 of low voltage lines that distributes electricity to our homes and businesses.

When we talk about the collapse of the grid, this is the system that we are talking about that must be safeguarded and is safeguarded. I will indicate in a moment. The transmission lines must maintain a frequency of 50Hz oscillation to keep the grid going and functional. This is the job of the systems operator. When there is an imbalance between the demand and the supply, that’s when the system operator intervenes, and I will say how in a moment, and if needs be, implements load shedding at different levels as part of our risk management system. The systems operator in South Africa is a world class set of individuals and systems that controls the grid frequency as I said at the national control centre in Johannesburg and ensures that there is a balance between electricity supply and demand in the country on a real time basis, 24-hours a day, and 365 days a year, to maintain the grid frequency of 50Hz, as I indicated. The systems operator ensures that the stability of the national electricity grid is
always maintained by maintaining this balance between supply and demand. And it has developed a formidable forecasting capability to anticipate how much of electricity will be used every hour of the day - this is called demand forecasting - ahead so that sufficient generation capacity can be made available to supply electricity and to deal with any contingency that may arise by using the open cycle gas, OCGs, turbines, or pump storage stations to maintain the balance in the overall system. Should emergency generation emerge at his disposal, not be sufficient, the systems operator is able to interrupt large customers and the supply to them for an agreed period or to call for curtailment of demand by qualifying customers as well. So, there are other mechanisms that the systems operator has available to apply as well. If all these measures fail, the systems operator then does what we are familiar with, which is load shedding, and will instruct the different regional distribution centres and municipalities to implement rotational load shedding. The systems operator again decides on the level of load shedding depending on what is required to maintain the balance between supply and demand at the end of the day.

In respect of the plan that government has, and as we are familiar, the President has announced in July last year, a comprehensive energy action plan and that action plan is currently being implemented through the National Energy Crisis Committee, which is now co-ordinated by the Minister of Electricity. In broad terms, the plan hopes to achieve the following: Firstly, to fix Eskom, which is what the main job of ...


unfortunately I have given you some seconds on the first question, you have four minutes. I will have to stop you there.


Ms A M SIWISA: Minister, given our knowledge that there are no existing plans to address persistent load shedding and the fact that the Minister has yet to tender his resignation, we want to know: Has the South African Reserve Bank circulated any data to corroborate their green proclamation of total grid collapse? Do you place faith in these assertions based on the data provided? Has there been a collective discussion between the Minister and the President specifically tackling the potential total grid collapse? If such a dialogue did transpire, can you enlighten us on the primary outcome of that
conversation? Considering the relentless load shedding crisis, what definitive action are being considered to fortify our national power grid?

Finally, could you explain the reasoning behind Eskom and the Minister’s agreement that the fiscal package allocated to Eskom should not be utilised for additional generation? What logic underpins the seemingly counter ... [Inaudible.] ... decision is not your question. You are not a Minister.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Siwisa, as I was about to say, there is a plan. A plan was announced in July last year. The key components of the plan are: Firstly, to fix Eskom and improve the availability of existing supply by restoring system stability and increasing generation capacity; secondly, to enable and accelerate private investment in generation capacity; thirdly, to accelerate procurement of new capacity from renewables, gas and battery storage; fourthly, to unleash businesses and household to invest in rooftop solar; and lastly, to fundamentally transform the electricity sector to achieve long-term security. So, there is a very clear plan from government.
As far as the Reserve Bank is concerned, I think they do their own modelling, and I am not familiar with the data, but the Minister of Electricity to whom this question should go is possibly in command of that data.

As far as the total collapse of the grid is concerned, several measures – as I pointed out in my initial answer – are already in place together with an efficient and effective systems operator, amongst the best in the world, to ensure that the grid collapse does not occur.

As far as the additional generation is concerned and a fiscal package, that is a measure or condition that has been put in place by the National Treasury, and if there are to be exceptions to that, I am sure that Treasury will be open to discussions and negotiations on that. So, to repeat, there is a clear plan, that plan is being implemented through the National Energy Crisis Committee. That committee is now co- ordinate by the Minister of Electricity. There is already evidence of some improvements together with the assistance of the private sector and others in the performance of Eskom’s plants. Thank you.
Ms J C N MKHWANAZI: Thank you, Minister for clarity, whilst load shedding is implemented to shed Eskom’s grid from total failure and thus safeguard country against the greater risk of blackouts, is there a reserve measures in place and load shedding sufficient to prevent the so-called collapse of Eskom grid given the high electricity demand during winter period until such time when Independent Power Producers, IPPs, can supply more electricity to the grid, and the anticipatory measures in place to help businesses and households in the unlikely event of the so-called grid collapse whereby we reduce the risk of business failure? Thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, hon Mkhwanazi for your question, there are a number of measures in place in addition to the ones that I have already mentioned, and some of those would be: Firstly, in winter, there is a low level of maintenance taking place, usually below 3000MW is out of the system during this period and perhaps even lower whereas by comparison, in summer, there is much higher set of units that are taken off for maintenance, and up to 9500MW could be out of the system as well.

Secondly, load shedding on the basis that I have just described where the systems operator has the task of managing
supply and demand and the reserve capacities that are within the system itself would determine from time to time the level of load shedding that is required. As you can see, in more recent times there has been more load shedding at levels two, three, and four, rather than six and beyond as well. So, this are the results of some of the interventions that have been put in place in recent times, and I am sure that we will see further improvements in the output from the current plan that we have.

An additional measure, which all parties should join hands in, is to call upon all South Africans to manage the demand of electricity better; put extra lights off, put the geysers off, put pools off, etc, so that that demand management can make very useful contribution to leaving greater amount of electricity on the system and not utilising electricity unnecessarily. Hon Mkhwanazi, the chances of grid failure in South Africa as we have repeatedly said from government is very low. We can’t deny that it is a possibility, it is a very low possibility. All the measures that government has put in place are beginning to have an impact on the stability of the system but also the output of the current system. And as you correctly put it as investments in IPPs and other forms of energy take place are connected to the grid, we will be in a
much secure position in the coming months and years. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr G K Y CACHALIA: As the Minister in charge of the state electrical utility, you are solely and ultimately responsible for the status of crisis it is in, but the utility still has an interim chief executive officer, CEO, and an interim chairperson in the face of a crisis that is all but interim. We have about the interim interventions to stave off a grid collapse, and that of the interim project manager. Perhaps you should declare yourself an interim Minister who has failed dismally. The question is: What are steps the Minister is taking to deal with this unsatisfactory state of affairs that is awashed with interim positions? Will he declare his satisfaction with the three shortlisted candidates for CEO when the crisis is calling out for the Red Adair, a world expert of the electricity business to fix up the mess he has perpetuated, and not in the ... [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: As usual, hon Cachalia specialises in a lack of understanding of what we are doing. Firstly, is that there is no interim chairperson, there is a permanent board that has been in place since October last year. How that escaped hon Cachalia, I am not sure, but I
suppose his focus is on the Gauteng competition that is about to come up in which he is a participant; secondly, we have a permanent head of generation in the system; thirdly, as far as the CEO process is concerned, that is a matter that the board is looking at. Once that process is completed, the public will be informed, and you cannot rush these processes. They need to take the normal course, and the board must be given the space to do what is necessary to ensure that the best possible candidate is made available. I have no formal information provided to me by the board in relation to any number of candidates and what their preferences are, or which direction they are likely to go to; and lastly, if we can just remind ourselves that there was a phenomenon called state capture, and that there was a huge damage done to the Eskom plant. It is well recorded that corruption and other forms of sabotage are doing untold damage to the Eskom system itself. All of those are receiving attention through the Energy Action Plan. Thank you.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Minister, I have listened to you trying to outline the interventions to prevent the total collapse of the grid against the many failed undertakings by your good self to turn Eskom around and to fix and improve its efficiency. Why this time around we should believe any of your
interventions because all the problems that we have occurred under your watch?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Again, House Chairperson, hon Buthelezi repeatedly misrepresents the facts, and it puts us as all political parties as we work our way towards elections next years. So, in fact things have improved, governance has improved, more people have been thrown out that were responsible for the malfeasance that took place, recommendations of the Zondo Commission have been implemented, money is being recovered from firms like ABB and others who engaged in malfeasance, there are people who have been charged by the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, whose trials should come up shortly, and a new board is in place as well.
Since the appointment of the Minister of Electricity, whose focus is in this area ... any number of interventions and improvements are under the umbrella of the Energy Action Plan announced by the President. All we can say is that these things take time. I don’t take a spanner and turn bolts around at Eskom, just from hon Buthelezi’s information, that is the work of people who are operating the plants. What I try to do is to create an atmosphere where they are supported, encouraged, and congratulated for every advance they make, but
also the malfeasance in the system is dealt with as harshly as possible by the system. Thank you.

Question 251:

Chairperson. And thanks to hon Dlamini for his question. Given that domestic refineries are experiencing closures due to the unrecoverable and expensive upgrades to meet the green economy standards that energy firms are not willing to spend money on and that ports and import facilities need to be modified to handle a change in liquid fuel, import product mix, and the increased volume. Sorry, I’m reading the question rather than the answer, my apologies.

Transnet National Ports Authority, TNPA, is currently enabling the importation, storage, and handling of liquid fuels through its infrastructure primarily at six ports, handling both the so-called white and clean fuels at various ports. Import infrastructure includes berths, loading arms, and pipelines.
Storage infrastructure includes storage tanks and pipelines, and handling infrastructure includes loading ... [Inaudible.]
... to evaluate the fuel or transferring the fuel via road and rail.
As far as the Port of Richards Bay is concerned, TNPA has issued a request for proposal, RFP, for the construction of a liquefied natural gas import facility at Berth 207 with a planned operational date by the financial year 2026-27. TNPA is also preparing an RFP for a liquid bulk facility at the South Dunes precinct. This was after feedback from the market through a request for an information process that indicated an interest in liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, and import infrastructure.

As far as the Port of Durban is concerned, the port authority has issued a request for proposal storage LPG, import storage, and handling terminal in Durban. The proposed terminal is expected to be in operation within three years. The Port of East London, again, the ports authority is developing a business opportunity and an expression of interest for an LPG import storage and handling terminal in East London. The target is to issue the expression of interest, EOI, to the market by August 2023.

The Port of Ngqura and Port Elizabeth, in this case, the Port of Port Elizabeth’s liquid bulk facility, including liquid fuels, was constructed in 1938 and has reached the end of its designed life. These facilities pose a health and
environmental risk, and therefore TNPA has committed both space and land at Ngqura for the development of a new liquid bulk facility that will include liquid fuels, which project is expected to be in operation by the financial year 2026-27.

Similar developments are taking place at Mossel Bay, where the port authority is doing a market analysis to define a feasible liquid fuel facility in size and fuel grades. In Mossel Bay, PetroSA plans to recommission its operations by the year 2026-
27 as well. Similarly, in Cape Town, the port authority has issued an RFP for an LPG import and storage and handling terminal, and this is proposed to come into operation within the next three years.

The TNPA’s operational model includes concessioning of terminal operations. And this is one form of partnership model that includes both the public and the private sectors in partnership. With both the current and planned fuel, liquid fuel terminals, private sector participation is dominant, with the port authority increasingly providing common user infrastructure and assuming the role of the landlord and the authority. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr N E DLAMINI: Thank you, Chair. Minister, Transnet issued a request for quotation, RFQ, for Ambrose Park in Durban and that was in 2017. To date, nothing has happened. How much has Transnet lost in trying to get out of that arrangement of 2017, outside of the R25 million that the court ruled against Transnet?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I don’t have the number at hand, hon Chairperson. But I will provide hon Dlamini with a written response on that.

Mr F ESSACK: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, it is common knowledge that Transnet’s operational inefficiencies have affected the economy across all business sectors. The Transnet board authorities calling on interested parties to respond to a request for proposals for a suitable terminal operator to finance, design, build, and operate a terminal as well as the common user infrastructure for the handling of LPG, as you have alluded to, especially in the liquid bulk precinct in the Port of Cape Town.

Hon Minister, given Transnet’s ranking of its ports at the very bottom of worldwide rankings, and the inability to elicit sufficient private sector interest, of course in other allied
sectors also, rail in particular. The question is Minister, what confidence ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Your time is up. I will allow you, but your time is up. You have one minute, not two. I will allow you. Continue with your question.

Mr F ESSACK: ... I am very grateful, Chairperson. Thank you. What confidence do you have that Transnet will secure the LPG desired terminal operator and what will the consequences be if this is not achieved within the stated time frame? I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please hon members, avoid preambles. If you are to ask the supplementary question, remember you have only one minute.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you Chairperson and thanks to hon Essack for the question. In fact, contrary to what the hon member says, there is a great deal of international interest in the infrastructure investments, but also the kind of equipment that Transnet requires at the moment to modernize its operations at ports and the rail level and in respect of the fuel industry as well. Just two days
ago, I met through digital means with probably one of the largest shipping lines in the world at the level of the chairperson of the board and had a very constructive engagement with them about their interest both in South Africa and the African continent. So there’s a huge appetite for investment in this part of the world.

Secondly, Transnet’s issuing of RFPs and EOIs, and so on have received very extensive responses, both from local players and international players as well. Certainly, in the kind of projects that we are talking about in respect of the fuel sector, I don’t think there is any shortage of people who are interested in either partnering with Transnet or entering into some kind of investment projects with other players as far as South Africa is concerned. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms C N MKONTHO: Hon Chair, hon Mkontho will take the question on behalf of hon Mawotwe.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, ma’am.

Ms C N MKONTHO: Minister, we are aware that the made-from- Washington implemented here in South Africa by the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank stooges
is to collapse state-owned strategic assets to pave the way for full privatization. It’s worth recalling that the former President once advocated for the government to acquire a stake in the engine, a proposal dismissed in favour of the National Treasury’s profit-oriented and private sector-biased decisions.

Looking at the current landscape, wouldn’t that move have mitigated our present challenges? Is it, not high time that we revisit this strategy, prioritizing national interest and the livelihoods of millions over a short-term profit enjoyed by the few friends of the Minister who have captured National Treasury officials?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, once again, the hon member and her political party make unfounded allegations about so-called friends and so-called projects about which they know they have no concrete evidence at all. And the House needs to consider whether these allegations should be permitted at all. But let’s leave that aside for the moment because that’s expected from certain quotas.

The IMF, or the World Bank, to the best of my knowledge, have not given this government any instructions whatsoever in
respect of any state-owned entity or any enterprise in which the state has any interest.

Secondly, we pride ourselves on our fiscal sovereignty in South Africa and are not dependent on any structural programmes that these institutions imposed on many other parts of the world. Of course, they have changed over the last 10 years, having had responses from, but also understood the ill effects of some of the programmes that they have in place.

Thirdly, there is no privatization programme, which is another repeated misleading commentary that comes from certain quotas. What we have is a very realistic understanding that all of the investments that we are talking about in various forms of infrastructure that the state is required to make cannot be afforded by the state alone, given its capital shortage, and that either for reasons of capital input, skills input, or new technologies being introduced in South Africa, partnerships are necessary between government entities and other players, both in South Africa and elsewhere in the world. This is how most of the world advances their economies, creates jobs in their countries, and ensures that citizens benefit, and not just a few individuals who take the money and put them in their pockets or secret bank accounts in different parts of
the world, including South Africa. So there is no privatization, there are no instructions, and we as a government and as a sovereign government make the decisions about where South Africa needs to go. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Macpherson.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Thanks, Chair. I’d like to rise on Rule 63. it is not up to the Minister to suggest to this House how Members of Parliament, MPs, should moderate their speech or what they can say in this House. I would ask that you kindly remind him that as a member of the executive, he is accountable to us, not the other way around. Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No hon Minister, leave it at that. I heard you, hon Member. Yes, hon Papo?

Mr A H M PAPO: Chair, I rise in terms of Rule 89. No member may reflect upon the merits of any matter. Even if - a member has no right to make allegations without a substantive motion in the House?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. Hon members, let me say this and I’m going to say it now. You see, this throwing of allegations is becoming a serious issue. And I think we should deal with it at the rules committee. Members are just throwing allegations. And you know that the rule says if you have something to raise about a member, you need to put in a substantive motion. This takes us to the same one that I ruled before about the bribes. You must bring a substantive motion, so we will deal with those issues. Let’s not do that. Thank you. We proceed. Hon Kwankwa.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister has already indicated in the original question. The CF2 regulations stipulate the amount of sulphur levels that should be contained in diesel and gasoline. However, quite a number of our refineries have not been able to meet or implement the higher spec rules, which has led to their closure. And the reason for that is due to the exorbitant amount of resources required to conduct these infrastructure upgrades.

What kind of support is the government department going to provide to the industry to stem the closure of these refineries to ensure, firstly, the security of supply and that
we are not susceptible to external supply-side shocks or disruptions?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you to hon Kwankwa for the question. He is quite right that over many years, Chairperson, the government has been trying to persuade the big oil companies to invest in the upgrading of refineries in South Africa.

Secondly, over the recent maybe 10 years or so or less, there’s been any number of closures of refineries around the world, and that has created positive outcomes for some of the firms, but at the same time creates uncertainty, as hon Kwankwa says, in terms of the supply factor. Thirdly, in terms of the plans in this particular regard, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy is better placed to respond to hon Kwankwa, so I will pass on that part of the question to him.

Question 293:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, hon Buthelezi for his question. Eskom intends to find solutions to exempt schools, hospitals, clinics and police stations where this is feasible. Given the nature of the groups that operate - as I
was explaining under a different question in each of the municipalities in South Africa or different parts of South Africa. At present Eskom is engaging with these entities regarding their points of supply, once this engagement has been completed and where possible, measures will be implemented to mitigate the impact of load shedding as far as is practically possible.

Currently, Eskom exempt or partially exempts more than 70 public health establishment but is looking at another 200 of them as well. Chairperson, the key factor is where exactly is the connectivity of electricity to these particular facilities happening? Is it possible to actually isolate the facility from the remainder of the grid? Those are technical issues that need to be worked through carefully without damaging the supply to the clinic or school or the hospital on the one hand or damaging the grid on the other hand. Where facility is deeply embedded - this reinforces my point - in the network actually exemption at lower stages of load shedding has been granted to some of the facilities as well.

Estimates has been concluded on preliminary assessments of establishing dedicated feeders to critical infrastructure. This assessment has been shared with the relevant departments
and implementations is under discussion with those departments. The implementation timeframe is invested to take the next 12 to 24 months after the investment decision and depending on the type of solution and other factors such as environmental approvals and land acquisition where that is applicable.

In the second part of the question the High Court Order was made against the Department of Public Enterprises amongst others. However, Eskom will collaborate with the department in the implementation of the orders as and when required. The department together with government is appealing the judgment of the High Court relating to load shedding in critical infrastructure or to critical infrastructure. While estimate awaited judicial outcome, it has been engaging with the relevant departments - as I have just pointed out - regarding its point of supply within the Eskom supply areas to find practical solutions.

So, there is no lack of willingness on the part of government or other departments to ensure that these critical facilities receive electricity as they are required. These are technical and practical impediments that we have to overcome and carefully evaluate before the measures that have already been
taken place in respect to certain health facilities are extended to other facilities as well. In certain instances, other kinds of assistance might have to be offered in the form of generators and other forms of equipment as well.

So, this is a matter where a universal application of a court decision might not be possible. In fact, it is not possible at a technical level. However, other measures - as I said and I repeat - will be found to give these institutions assistance that they require. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Minister, the fact of the matter is that our country has been launched into this serious problem of load shedding which has not only crippled our economy but also have costed lives and livelihood. As the Minister presiding over state-owned entities, in particular Eskom, are you very proud of this legacy that it took even courts to force you to exempt critical institutions such as the ones listed, which unfortunately, you are telling us here that you are appealing? That on its own shows how much you don’t care about our people.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, once again, hon Buthelezi chooses to engage in politics rather than focus
on the answer that I’ve just given. The answer being, if there’s a willingness to understand the nature of the transmission system, the 325 000 kilometers of wires that connect all of these facilities to the generating plants that Eskom has available to it at this point in time and that it is not possible with one stroke of the pen whoever the pen might be belonging to.

To actually solve the problem that we have either in respect of load shedding - which I’ve addressed before - or where there is a concrete plan being implemented or some of the difficulties that some of these facilities are currently facing, the simple answer is that - and I wish to repeat the answer - in case the hon Buthelezi has difficulty in appreciating it, and that is that there are technical evaluations taking place. Secondly, is that some of the measures taken in the hospitals preceded the court actions that he is making reference to. In other words, they took place before the court actions were even heard by the court itself and the court determined the outcome of those particular actions.

We will continue as a government to ensure that these essential facilities for our students, for our patients at
hospitals and other important service centers are supplied with electricity wherever it is possible either today or in the near future in one form or another. This is, in fact, because we do care about our people and we do want to ensure that they are not compromised in any way as far as the services they receive from this government is concerned. Thank you.

Mr K E MAGAXA: Chair, I am sorry for the delay. While the harmful effects of loadshedding warrant some restorative justice through litigation, what are some of the shortcomings of the court’s ruling that the government through the Department of Public Enterprises should exempt schools, hospital, clinics and police stations from load shedding? Has the Department of Public Enterprises ever conducted a cost benefit analysis of this ruling to ascertain whether the cost overweight the benefits or vice versa? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, thank you to hon Magaxa for his question. Excuse me. As I pointed out there’s the cost benefit analysis not in monetary terms but in practical terms it is quite clearly that if we switch off all of these facilities immediately everyone who is supplied by the grid will be switched off as well. So, that’s at the cost.
The benefit of approaching it the way I have described it earlier on to hon Buthelezi, which is where carefully evaluations are done about exactly where in the local grid these facilities such as hospitals and schools actually receiving their electricity from and is it possible to actually isolate that particular facility from the rest of the environment in which that facility finds itself, is a much more constructive approach. and

A number of facilities - as I pointed out - have already been attended to in this particular regard and are receiving the, if you like, exemptions that Eskom is in a position to provide. The implications of the court action - as I said - or the court decision and which is the reason why it is being appealed by government not appealed by Eskom department, is that it is impractical to implement that decision in the way it has been cited and that some variation of the decision must be made which takes account of the reality that I have just described, i.e, how all of these institutions are integrated into a single system.

Some of which can be isolated at these facilities some of which might not be able to be isolated. Where those facilities cannot be isolated, they be provided with other alternatives
such as generators and other kinds of equipment that will assist that particular facility in terms of the need that they actually have. So, in some, hon Chairperson and hon Magaxa, what we are doing as government is taking each of these requirements very seriously and conscientiously working through them so that we can provide the maximum benefit in terms of electricity supply to those facilities. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chairperson, the appeal by the Minister demonstrates the different world Ministers and us ordinary mortals live in. Load shedding is clearly a foreign concept to the Minister as a beneficiary of the R50 million spent to make sure that Ministers and their deputies generators are delivering their electricity. What makes the Minister so special while a similar exemption for our scholars in schools, patients in hospitals and police who protect our community are opposed.

Surely, this is not right in this elite ANC who care little for ordinary folk. Surely, the Minister at the very least, should publicly forego his privileges. The question is, will he do so?

Usitshele nje.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Chair, once again hon Cachalia is on the wrong sports field, he should be playing cricket but he thinks he is playing soccer. Nevertheless, that is a different matter. Firstly, I am not exempt from load shedding personally. I live in my own house in Pretoria nor is the premises that I occupy in Cape Town exempt from load shedding. I am not provided by government to the generator at all. So, I don’t have to forego anything publicly because the government doesn’t provide anything for me in this particular regard. That is why I say, hon Cachalia, gets it wrong all the time. What can one do but feel sorry for him. Thank you.

Mr K CEZA: Minister, you recently indicated that you would challenge the court directive that hospitals must be exempted from load shedding. What informed your decision to challenge this court ruling? What interventions will you then make to ensure that key public services are not disrupted by load shedding? Will you take responsibility for the loss of life incurred as a result of medical procedures that cannot be performed because of load shedding? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I did not actually get the name of the hon member.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is hon Ceza.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Firstly, I think we all understand the context in which load shedding is occurring at the moment. There have been mishaps historically where power stations or new facilities to generate power were not built in time or where they were built they underwent a huge cost overrun, time overruns and other forms of malfeasance as well. So, load shedding is a reality in South Africa because Eskom is unable to provide all of the electricity needs of this country at this point in time. I have explained earlier on as well that load shedding is the ultimate step that the systems operator takes if other measures - which are listed earlier as well - do not adequately meet the supply shortages that the demand is confronted with.

As far as why is this court decision being appealed, because South Africa’s judicial system does allow for appeals as a Constitution. Secondly, I gave the reason already that some of the decisions or the judgment of the court is impractical and can’t be implemented as it stands and thirdly I’ve also said
that wherever is possible there is a system in place and programme in place to exempt some of these facilities from load shedding such as hospitals. Many of them have that provided for them already, others are still undergoing the kind of technical assessment that I talked about.

Finally, where it is not possible to disconnect the facility from the grid to which that facility is connected, other forms of assistance will actually be provided as well. One hopes that whether it is in the hospital or elsewhere no loss of life takes place because that is not our intention and that is not the kind of imposition that we want to see here in society. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Question 252:

start by noting that the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition group itself has identified eight actions to support firms in the economy and consumers in addressing the energy challenges. The department has also included a number of energy targets in its annual plan.

On 14 March this year, I announced the R1,3 billion package of support and we are looking at ways to expand that further. The
Department of Trade, Industry and Competition group entities are doing work on energy includes the department itself, the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, the National Empowerment Fund, NEF, the Competition Commission and the National Regulator of Compulsory Specifications.

The IDC has five programmes. The first is a consessionary funding facility to Energy Service Companies to enable them to provide finance emery solutions to SMMEs to reduce or eliminate the impact of loadshedding.

The second is a working capital facility to recover production backlogs, inventory stocking and raw material purchases as well as certain operational expenses including wages and salaries, rent and so on.

The third is township and rural grant which provides funding to support townships small town and rural enterprises that are affected by loadshedding.

The fourth one is a facility to support localisation of key components. It’s aimed at supporting the working capital needs of manufacturers or assembles of key components like solar PV panels, inventors and batteries.
And the final one that is going through the process of approval by the IDC is a funding scheme to fast-track utility scale generation where the IDC will partner with credible developers who have shown already commercial skill project already to accelerate the development of projects.

The NEF itself has set aside an amount of R150 million to implement funding of alternative energy solutions at reduce interest rates while blending the funding with grants has been provided by other funding partners. As an example of this, the funding of solar energy solutions is provided to entities at a consensual price.

The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition itself through the energy One-stop shop is working across government and with stakeholders such as Eskom and municipalities to facilitate and unblock energy related challenges to support company’s productions.

The other measures that announced during the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition Budget Vote which include the use of low energy light bulbs and the exemption given to companies from certain provisions of the Competition Act. This
allows small firms amongst others to collaborate and work together on energy supply.

In addition, hon members, we are working through Invest South Africa and the IDC to attract more investors into the energy space visited by President Ramaphosa to Saudi Arabia last year highlighted the project announced at the investment conference in which investors is building a 100 megawatts plant in the Northern Cape with up to 12 hours of thermal storage. We will allow the project to deliver and to despatch reliable energy even when the sun is not shining. Thank you.

Mr C N MALEMATJA: Minister, what measures has the department adopted to ensure that large co-operations do not abuse their dominancy by abnormally hiking the basic food prices to the detriment of ordinary working class and poor South Africans? Thank you.


three initiatives. The first is monitoring what is happening to food prices and the Competition Authorities have looked for the last number of years during the COVID period and beyond.
At particular basic foods staffs what the mark ups are, what the prises of producers are and prices of retailors and they
publish quiet a detailed report on it. Where they find that there are excesses prices as is found in the legislation that can provide a basis for prosecution of companies for excessive prising.

The second initiatives will be to monitor what is happening in food markets themselves, the structure of the market whether there are new players coming in nd small businesses are permitted to come in or the dominant firms restrict access by the market conduct. The Competition Commission has launched a fresh produce marketing enquiry that will be looking at all of these things in the food supply chain. And the decisions that they make the findings that they have now will have the force of law. In other words, it will be mandatory to be implemented. In some cases, it will go through a process of confirmation by the Competition Tribunal.

The third area that I point to is, by looking at the impact of government decisions on prices in the food sector. For example, we have trade remedies and trade adjustment that are made. They include food products and, in those instances, we engage with those firms affected to ensure that they make suitable commitment not to increase prices unduly if tariffs are either increased or reduced.
So, those are some of the measures that we are taking as a department to deal with food prices. I thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, many small farmers and businesses suffered tremendous losses during loadshedding and face uncertain futures for as long as we continue to have loadshedding. The Al Jama-ah constituency office in uMdoni in KwaZulu-Natal has received 15 distress calls for help from villages on Ashanti Farm in Braemar, Kumbedi Farm in Kesington, Gwalimba, Sezela, more villages in Makueni in Paarl east in Drakenstein in the Western Cape, Macrame village in the Eastern Cape, Shiluvane village in Limpopo and villages in Qua Qua in the Free state. Food prices have tripled. In Qua Qua, they need a bridge. They need a borehole in Limpopo. How can the Minister assist them? Thank you very much.


to thank, hon Hendricks, for the question. The question points to how pervasive the challenges are that we are going to manage until we are able to get a normalisation of the supply of energy.

So, I am going to suggest, hon Hendricks, that my office reaches out to your office and get details of this. Some of
these matters will fall within the mandate of other departments. But we would like to see whether there are small firms to alert them to the facilities that the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition ICD group has available and to see what we can do to link them with other departments that may have a facility available.

But I think it highlights the importance of ensuring that the voices of the rural or poor of communities or villages are not often in the media mainstream are also taken into account as we rollout measures to try to mitigate the impact of loadshedding while we stabilise and improve the supplier of energy. Thank you.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The hon Rev Meshoe? Rev Meshoe? Is he on the platform?

Mr S N SWART: Yes, he was in the platform. Could I ask you just to hold it over to the end of the question?

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Okay, I will come back. Let me just check. Is he there? We now go to the, hon Breedt.
Ms T BREEDT: Hon Minister, taking into account the detrimental impact of loadshedding on agriculture as also stated in the original question, the Minister of Agriculture has established a Task Force to investigate the impact of loadshedding on agriculture and agro-processing enterprises. Taking into account the role your department plays with regard to these matters to the enterprises, have you been brought on board with the Task Force? And if not, will you engage the Department of Agriculture to join this Task Force? I thank you.


question points like the previous one from, hon Hendricks, to quite important sections of the communities that are affected by the challenges that we face. The agriculture sector is important because we do need to ensure food security. And so, we are very closely to Minister Didiza and her team and the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition collaborates in general on these issues but in particular on two Master Plans. There is the Poultry Master Plan and the other one is the Sugar Master Plan. Some of the stakeholders they have brought the challenges to our attention. And I think the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development is leading. And
at the same time, we also working very actively with them in addressing these needs.

In addition to the upstream part, which is the farming sides, we are also looking to see what can be done to the food processes, the factories are taking the raw materials from the farm and processes in a form that can go to the retailors.
These are all vital parts of our food supply chain and they all deserve careful attention as we deal with these matters. I thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: A recent article by the conversation noted that our power crisis will likely continue until 2025 and blackouts could take five years to face out. Agro SA Chief Executive Officer, Christoffel van der Merwe, has also noted that given the magnitude of the crisis, the Afro Energy Funding Scheme proposed by Agriculture Minister will not be enough to mitigate the impact of loadshedding on our farms on food security.

What I want to know, hon Minister, is that in addition to this Afro Energy Funding Scheme that has been proposed, and we have been told that it would not be enough. I want to know if the Minister and his department have other measures and packages
of support that the Minister announced today that will protect farmers and other small businesses from bankruptcy and closure of their businesses which obviously will lead to poverty and more suffering. I thank you, Chair.


to respond by again reiterating that we have a number of funding mechanism that are available that are in this case could be utilised in the food supply chain. But in addition to that, hon Meshoe, we also have published a set of exceptions from certain provisions of the Competition Act that farmers and the customers can utilise in working together in collaborating in energy related matters.

Under our Competition Law typically competitors are not entitled to work with each other on any of the matters. They should go out and compete in order to keep prices low. But we have recognised the challenges that are faced by many sectors of the economy which includes as, hon Breedt, and yourself have pointed to the agriculture one and hon Malema just make the same point.

So, these facilities are available. We are again having to work quite closely with industry because even with these
additional facilities would not be on its own sufficient given the large number of companies. And so, that’s why we are strengthening the efforts to support the various Ministers Ramokgopa, Minister Gordhan and Minister Mantashe in their different areas in addressing the overall challenges within energy. As soon we make progress with that to the position where the loadshedding reduces and eventually is eliminated the sooner we will be able to see the bounce back across the economy. So, it requires mitigation in the meantime while we focus on fixing the problem. Thank you very much.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I know it’s not usual that we do this in the middle of the order. But I just want to make you aware that four new members from the EFF were sworn in by the Speaker late this afternoon. They will be formally announced tomorrow at the start of the sitting. You are welcome. We will officially announce you tomorrow. [Interjections.] No, no, who is that now? Don’t do that, hon member, wherever you are.

Question 274:

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson, the information I am providing is from Eskom. The Energy Availability Factor, EAF, for the financial year 2024, as per
the 29 May 2023, was 52,63%, this reflects the unavailability of several life units as well as the continued poor performance of older coal fired power stations as a result of many years of poor maintenance. However, intensive efforts are underway to ensure that the Kusile units one, two and three, come on line by December 2023, which will reduce the unplanned load shedding by about 1 500 megawatts for the last three months of the financial year.

It is the achievement together with the targeted improvement of plugged performance and reliability across Eskom’s feed to the energy recovery plan to make an EAF of 65% possible for March 2024. Efforts to reduce and ultimately end load shedding require us to work together to drive interventions both on the supplier side increasing available megawatts, and demand side reducing peak demand. Eskom remains committed to increasing the amount of available generation with a specific focus over the winter period by firstly, reducing unplanned load losses in the generation feed. Secondly, managing planned maintenance with the minimum level required over winter as I indicted earlier. Thirdly, maximising the utilisation of open cycle gas turbines which use diesel to curb load shedding at peak times. Our aim is to limit unplanned load losses to 15 000 megawatts over winter, in line with Eskom’s winter plans.
This past week has been an improvement in the availability of the feed, with unplanned load losses currently at around 15 900 megawatts. This has enabled the reduction and the severity of load shedding which we hope to maintain in the coming week. Several further actions are underway through the National Energy Crisis Committee, Necom, the private sector through business for South Africa has mobilised technical skills and capacity to support Eskom’s generation plan. Support teams will be deployed at Matla, Kriel, Majuba and Kendal Power Stations. Technical support will also be provided for diesel supply chain optimisation to increase the lowered factor of the open cycle gas turbines.

In addition, Eskom is implement a National Demand Management Programme which I referred to earlier on. The programme follows the performance contracting approach with an incentive of R3 million per megawatt for demand reduction achieved during a specific period.

Contracting is being finalised for close on to 400 megawatts through the standard of emergency generation programme and this additional capacity comes on the Kelvin Power station.
Progress has been made at bringing online additional online capacity through other forms of regulatory reforms that will enable the private sector investment to be accelerated.

For ensuring leadership stability, rebuilding of skills and capability within Eskom, partnering with industry and driving implementation of various measures in the energy action plan. We will stabilise our energy supply reduce the severity and the frequency of load shedding sooner rather than later. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Mr G K Y CACHALIA: That is all very well, Minister. However, as you know R254 billion has been earmarked for debt relief to Eskom. We also witness the phenomenal diesel burn. So, high that it projects a shortfall in the R30 billion budget for diesel in this financial year. This makes us wonder if another bailout is in the pipeline. As the conditionalities attached to the R254 billion transfer will not support such profligate diesel spending.

Add to this eye watering loss costed by the company the largest to date and then there is the endorsement, the rehash of the Necom’s action plan by the project managing Minister of
Electricity. In short, Eskom is in a far worse position under this Minister’s watch.

As a chemist Mr Minister I look forward to an accurate balancing of the elements not an alcamist version’s involving where the buck stops and who will take the responsibility for this rime failure. One wonders if it is he the project manager Minister or Mr Mantashe who will implement measures to fix this mess or the buck be passed from see no evil to hear no evil to do no evil.

The question is whether he can differentiate between intelligence and evidence by endorsing the immediate suspension of a high ranking executive and others as the Police compiled damning evidence that reveals their part in allegedly engineering and sabotaging various power stations resulting in breakdowns? It seems that Mr De Ruyter was right. No!

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson, at last the hon Cachalia got to the question. Whoever is identified as a person who has to offer explanations in respect of any form of alleged maleficence must be suspended, investigated and must be dealt with in accordance with the
outcomes of the investigation. That is the responsibility of management. Our job as the oversight Ministry is to make sure that that happens and it happens efficiently.

The difference between intelligence and information are leaved to your lexicon, but as far as we are concerned House Chairperson, there is a clear plan. The plan is public and it has the support of the private sector and other sectors of the society including the trade union movement. We are serious about implementing the plan. The Minister of Electricity will give you and the public more information on the progress that is made in this particular regard. However, there are several work streams that are co-ordinated under the National Energy Crisis Committee. They are just shared now by the hon Minister Ramokgopa. They frequently publish the outcomes of some of the work that they are doing and the progress that they are making as well. So we are confident that we as government are beginning to get on top of the issue and we will produce the results that are necessary which were falling short of our expectations in the recent past. Thank you.

Mr S N GUMEDE: Hon House Chairperson and thank you hon Minister for your response. Given that Eskom’s energy availability factor EAF has been declining for 17 years now
there by implying that it is impossible to return the EAF to sustainable levels within one year. What would it take for Eskom to repair and rehabilitate the underperforming power stations to improve the EAF in relation to the six targeted plants to move away from stage six load shedding and what option does Eskom have at the moment in terms of improving the EAF in the current winter period of the high demand? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson and thank you, hon Gumede for your question. Of course the final answer in relation to what needs to be done in relation to the problems Eskom faces is the multidimensional one. It is firstly to get the current plants to work more efficiently which we plan to. Secondly, is to add more megawatts as quickly as possible to our electricity system in particular through independent power producers, IPPs, of one sort or another. Thirdly, is to improve the skills, be experienced- based and operational capabilities of people who are operating at the plant itself. Fourthly, it is to catch in action if you like those who are undermining these efforts. Many of them both outside and perhaps inside Eskom as well and to stop the kind of things they are undertaking which is interfering with Eskom operating at its optimum level. The sixth one is
obviously the balance between supply and demand and the manner which we as the public contribute to this as well.

At the technical level at Matla Power Station which can produce up to 3 450 megawatts at 11% EAF improvement is been targeted through actions focussed specifically an improving coal quality.

At Kriel Power Station, 2 850 megawatts station and the target is the 25% improvement in the EAF by addressing 700 megawatts of partial load losses relating to the poor conditions of the cooling towers. At Majuba Power Station which could produce up to 3 822 megawatts. A 12% EAF improvement has been targeted through addressing the 1 200 megawatts of partially load losses associated with bag filters. At Kendal Power Station 3 840 megawatts station and another 25% improvements is being targeted, which has problems venting from ash handling through to air heaters. The importance of the private sector becoming partners in these processes at each of these power stations including the operation clean government, OCG in our capacity. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Ms L H ARRIES: Hon House Chairperson, the hon Arries will take it. Hon Minister, would it not be fair to start that this
query is both displaced and directed to the wrong individual? Given our collective understanding that there are not precise signs of electricity generation today that can confidently predict the eaf. The evidence is clear in the sporadic suspension and the reinstatement of load shedding often within a matter of hours or even minutes.

However, the pertinent question perhaps should be this: Is is accurate that Mr Ramaphosa approach you with a proposition that shift Eskom entirely under the purview of the so-called the dancing Minister of Electricity on reporting lines and orchestrate a coherent plan currently nonexsisting to curb load shedding and you reject this idea? Thank you. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson, there is somewhat of a science in engineering. As I explained several times this afternoon, the systems operator is the one’s sense of expertise as South Africa is privileged to have which ensures that there is balance between demand and supply. Load shedding is a risk mitigation measure that is available to the system’s operator when all else is not contributing to the right supplier and demand balance that is actually required.
The fluctuating level of load shedding is the one that frustrates all of us. That is the consequence of the volatility in the plants themselves. The lack of predictability of what whether you will have a boiler tube lick today, tomorrow, this afternoon or tonight. All of those factors then contribute to the fluctuating nature of load shedding.

In addition to the fact that there are contractors out there who are responsible for repairing units that have false of one kind or another who promise that in a day or two it will return to operations and then there are. [Inaudible.] ...
These are the matters that are being dealt with in a very coherent way under the Energy Action Plan and with an intensive attention from Minister Ramokgopa himself. Thank you, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N L D Ntombela): Hon Swart. There is a point of order. Please take a sit.

Hon member, what is your point of order?


Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Hon House Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule 84. My hand has been up for some time, unfortunately you
could not see me. The hon member of the EFF referred to the hon Minister of Electricity as the dancing Minister. That is very much unparliamentary. It is also an offensive language. POO

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.

Reyetsa jwang?


Thank you.

Hon members, a point of order has been raised. I want to request this House to observe the rules that we use in this House and refrain from referring to members in disrespectful languages. It should not happen.

Let us try by all means to allow the debate to flow in a respectful way. Thank you very much. We now go to the hon Swart.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chairperson.
Arising from your response, hon Minister, one of the important measures needed to end load shedding at Eskom is of course preventing criminality and sabotage. Such as we have seen the coal mafia, etc. While the ACDP fully appreciates the devastating impact of the state capture and corruption played, it seems that criminality is continuing. If one has to recent allegations by the then Eskom executive.

Hon Minister you have also indicated that progress has been made with funds been recovered in the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, in rolling cases involving certain Eskom officials. We have had this discussion in the past.

However, do you hon Minister believe that more can and should be done to fight criminality at Eskom and if so as the Ministry is the oversight in this regard what can one do in this regard where you are able to address these issues of criminality? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon House Chairperson and the hon Swart who is an old campaigner not in the age terms, but for Eskom. There is absolutely no doubt that whilst there has been a great deal of progress in relation to tackling the question of criminality, sabotage, and abuse to put it mildly,
of the procurement system; that progress is not enough to stop everything of soul that is within the employ of Eskom or those who rely on Eskom in anyway commercially from stopping that activity.

Whether it is the coal mafia or the contracting mafia, whatever the case might be and whether they are mafias or syndicates or individuals is quite irrelevant to the point, but there is no doubt that the activity is continuing on one scale or another. There is also no doubt that far more intensive action and attention has to be given both within Eskom itself and by Eskom itself where it is within their powers to undertake preventative action. However, also from the law-enforcement authorities in South Africa.

Some of that is under the co-ordination of the National Energy Crisis Committee and as the use under the progress there is progress there in terms of the number of cases that have been opened or charges that have been laid. People that have appeared and sentenced in court. However, quite clearly if that kind of progress can be intensified we will see less of the maleficence that we have been familiar with at Eskom for some. However, I am optimistic that if we put our heads together together, both as government and civil society as
well and business and labour sectors we can overcome these challenges. Thank you, House Chairperson.

Mr E MTHETHWA: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is the point of order hon member?

Mr E MTHETHWA: Hon Chair, on a point of order: It is my first day and I am offended by the fact that ... [Interjections.]
... Am I protected, Chair? ... I wanted to get clarity on ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, Hon members! Hon members, order please. [Interjections.] Hon member, can you hold for a second. [Interjections.] Hon members, please be quiet. Hhayibo! [Interjection of disbelief] Hon members, this a bit unusual. [Interjections.] Could you please hold. Sir, could you please allow me to continue with my work and the House to continue? Thank you very much. I am noting you, Hon Singh. The member has taken the oath today and the previous Chairperson did mention that there were four new members from the EFF who will be ... [Interjections.] ... Hon members don’t assist me please, and the new members will be announced
tomorrow but they have taken the oath and they are members of this House.

So they are entitled to do whatever that is supposed to be done in the House. Please allow the member to say what he wants to say and then I will go to the Hon Singh.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I think it is ...

... Hhayi umsindo phela.



 ... it is very unfair that we have to drown out a member who has come to this House for the first time. We haven’t even heard what the person has said. [Interjections.] I appreciate your ruling. We need to hear the member, Hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, we are all entitled to participate in this House. What is your point of order, Hon member?
Mr E MTHETHWA: ... I wanted to find out what is unparliamentary by saying “dancing Minister” because ... what is the point of order in saying “dancing Minister” because I am a dancer and I have fed my family through dancing? [Interjections.] I feel offended, Chair. It is a profession to dance, Chair, just like being a doctor is a profession. [Interjections.] So, if you are reducing what I used to feed my children into something that is unparliamentary ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Deputy Chief Whip, Hon Hlengwa and the Hon Macpherson.


Chairperson, on a point of order: While we appreciate that we have a dancer in the House, he must also learn the Rules because when we are done with a certain matter and move forward, we do not go back to that. When you want to interject you must do it at the same time while we are dealing with that matter. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will make a ruling after the Hon Macpherson.
Mr M HLENGWA: Chair, on a point of order: I wonder if maybe I can come back after you have made the ruling because mine is a separate matter from what is currently happening.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: House Chair, on a point of order: we have spent 15 minutes entertaining dancers and points of orders and all sorts of things and there is nothing worse than a dancer who is out of step on the stage. Please, can we go back to the business of the day which are the Questions because we are running out of time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): That is not a point of order, Hon Macpherson. Can I respond to your Hon member, Hon Ntlangwini? Hon Ntlangwini?

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, on a point of order: We can’t help it if some members can’t dance and having issues with people that can properly dance and have ... [Inaudible.] ... on a stage ... [Inaudible.] ... with that ... [Inaudible.] ... so we can’t help that. [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, for the benefit of all the members, Rule 92 says, a member may raise a point of order at any time during the proceedings of
the House. A point of order should be raised at that particular moment or immediately after an objection is made. There is nothing wrong with that but the Hon member who has raised a point of order should be aware of that, but also the member is calling himself a dancer but it would be unparliamentary for other members to call each other dancers when they are not dancers, but if a member decides to call himself or herself a dancer, we cannot object to that. Shall we continue, Hon members?

Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I suspect I may be guilty for a point I am about to raise in the context of what you have said but I think nonetheless it is important. The Question session is the only item which is given a specific time allocation and this afternoon there has been heightened filibustering and it eats into the time of the Question and Answer session. I would like you, Chair, and the other Presiding Officers to look into the management of time, particularly the interruption by points of order which eat into the time.

For example, when the first Question was called this afternoon, there were points of order that took 13 minutes away from the Question session. So I am asking you, Chair, to
... because the other Presiding Officer was in the chair when I was raising this, but a lot of time into what we ... Can you just keep quiet; I am not talking to you ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.] ... and we won’t allow this ... [Interjections.] I am entitled to a point of order like your member was making a point of order... [Interjections.] I never
...[Inaudible.] ... his rights. [Interjections.] My apologies.



uqinisile, abantwana abaphume la ePhalamende.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hlengwa, could you please take your seat. I have noted you, Hon Chief Whip. Hon Ntlangwini, I regard that which you have just done now as gross misconduct. You cannot do what you have just done now. I, therefore, have to warn you that if you were to continue with this type of behaviour I would request you to leave the House and I hope you are not going to do it. You can continue, Hon Hlengwa

Mr M HLENGWA: My apologies. It's just that I fundamentally believe that listening is also a skill. I did not question
points of order, I said what is a problem is eating into the point of order when it is raised and therefore eating into the time and I was not citing one member, I raised a whole range of them but my apologies nonetheless, Chairperson, for how I reacted to that interruption. What I'm asking the Presiding Officers is to protect the time of the Question session because it's the one opportunity that is available for members to interact with the executive. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Point taken, Hon Hlengwa, it'll be looked at. It'll definitely be looked at. Hon Chief Whip?


point of order: I would like to just quickly draw your attention to the Hon member who's sitting right next to Hon Thembekwayo, he has repeatedly been shouting into his microphone. I can appreciate that he may be new and does not know the Rules but in this House we don't howl into the mic, and that he should be called to order, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, one thing that we should always respect is the decorum of the House and the decorum of the House depends on how we behave
ourselves as members. Could you please give this House the respectable tone that it deserves? Hon Ntlangwini?

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, on a point of order: I'm not going to make any apology because, House Chair, we are all members of this House and if the Chairperson and the Chief Whips want to act biased in their approaches and wanting to take a swipe at EFF members, they're doing that at their own peril.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ntlangwini!


Ms E N NTLANGWINI: But why are you interrupting me, Chair? You have let him speak. With all due respect, sir, give me a platform to speak.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ntlangwini, make your point of order and please do so in a manner that also allows me to come back to you, and allow the House to go ahead with its work.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you, sir. You allowed other members to speak their points of order the way they wanted, taking swipes at the EFF the way they wanted but if the EFF responds,
and look at how they react, you only respond to the EFF and interject us time and time again. Now that won't be tolerated. You continue with that behaviour as well, House Chair...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, Hon Ntlangwini.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: That’s disrespectful ...



... wena. Hlala phansi wena.


You are disrespectful.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Ntlangwini, can I address you? It'll help to listen when I address you. It'll help you. Hon Ntlangwini, the type of behaviour you have demonstrated as the Hon Hlengwa was making a point of other was totally unacceptable, and I kindly request you to refrain from behaving like that because that creates chaos in the House. I mean, we are not there for that purpose. We all have a responsibility in making sure that our people out there get the benefit of what we discuss as the members of this House.
So the kind of behaviour you have demonstrated is totally unacceptable, not only from you, from any other member who can do that for that matter. So I request you again, please don't do that. By the way, where were we? Thank you very much. At least you can still afford to smile. Thank you so much.

Hon members, we were on Question 253 and I have been informed that the Minister and Deputy Minister are not available to answer questions today. The Minister requested for the question to stand over. Therefore, the question to the Minister of Small Business Development stands over in terms of Rule 144(1)(a) and 144(2).

Question 249:

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, hon members let me thank hon Herron for the question. The integration of services referred to on section 40 of the National Land Transport Act is being achieved through the implementation of the integrated public transport networks at various cities.
Implementation may not be as fast as anticipated, due to various reasons inclusive of associated insufficient funding municipality, lack of capacity and delays in negotiations with affected operators.
The second part of the question regarding the future of Bus rapid transit, BRT, as per the question, that Bus rapid transit. The BRT will continue to be part of implementing integrated public transport networks in high density corridors but also it will be implemented along with other integrated modes of transport in corridors with lower urban densities.
This is in line with section 54(h) of the National Land Transport Act. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you House Chair and thank you hon Minister. I think is fair to say Minister that section 40, 41 and 42 of the National Land Transport Act are intended to expand public transport network and services and to make them more affordable and interoperable. It also intended to facilitate the transformation of our public transport system by providing bus operating opportunities to the taxi owners. If we don’t implement all three sections of the Act, then we will strangle those bus operating opportunities for the taxi industry.

As I understand it, we have three Mycity bus taxi operating contracts coming to an end in the next year and one Rea Vaya contract coming to an end in the next year, because their 12 years are up. So, how does the Minister expect to sustain the
support of the taxi industry for the roll out of BRT giving up their permits if we don’t create contracting opportunities using the bus subsidised contracts to provide those opportunities, if they don’t go out on tender? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much hon Herron the bus subsidy contracts are managed by provinces. The Integrated Public Transport Network, IPTN, aims at ensuring the integration of all modes of transport.

And as you will be aware that during the time when we established this, it is important that all stakeholders are taken on board, including the already operating bus companies as well as the taxi industries. So that when the BRT starts to operate, every stakeholder is in agreement and in support of that. This is based on research that has to happen before we commence with the implementation of the IPTN, including Bus rapid transport.

Indeed, on issues related to operating licences as you’ve asked the question, the provinces are attending to that, but also it’s the matter that we are taking into cognisance as the Department of Transport. Thank you very much House Chairperson.
Ms M M RAMADWA: Thank you very much House Chairperson and thank you hon Minister for your response. In how many metros is the Bus rapid transit system operational? And how many more metros will the Bus rapid transit system be extended in this financial year? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much hon Ramadwa. The are ten metros and municipalities receiving the public transport network grant for their Integrated Public Transport Networks. Of that ten, eight municipalities receiving the PTNG are operating services and these they include Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, Tshwane, Polokwane and I think Rustenburg, Cape Town, George and Nelson Mandela Bay. Mangaung as you be aware hon member plans to launch its IPTN this financial year. Cape Town, George, Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, Tshwane and Rustenburg are all planning to extend their services within the next three years.

EThekwini and Mangaung are not yet operational as I’ve indicated and the three suspended municipalities; that is uMsunduzi, Mbombela as well as Buffalo City are working on readmission into the grant and as the Department of Transport, we are trying to assist them but of course they must meet the
requirement for them to be readmitted. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: House Chairperson, Minister in fact there are 13 participating cities. Minister amongst the 13 BRT participating cities, more than R50 billion have been spent over the past 12 years. Over this period about half of these cities saw an expenditure ability of less than 50% with most of the capital being used to pay consultants with little advancement in infrastructure, least of all moving buses.
Minister, will you have this audited? Will you check what the R50 billion was spent on? And will you act on what you find? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon House Chairperson, whenever and wherever we think that something wrong has happened we don’t hesitate to investigate. For instance, we have issued a forensic investigation in Mangaung municipality, as well as I think ... yah, I don’t want to mention the second because I don’t have it in my head. But on two of them, we already have a report about Mangaung which we are processing, and we expect to receive a report on the second one. So, yes where we think that things are not happening as expected and where we are
suspecting maladministration and misuse of finances, we don’t hesitate to action that, so yes, we are doing that.

We do believe that there are municipalities that are implementing IPTN including BRT better than others and we are expecting that those that are still coming up will learn from those that are implementing this very well. Thank you very much House Chair.

Mr K SITHOLE: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister what is the status of negotiations with various industries, stakeholders, such as taxi industry to fully support and fit into the Bus rapid transport system with special reference to the Go Durban project? Thank you, hon House Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Negotiations with different stakeholders are at different levels. For instance, where we are already implementing the IPTN including BRT the negotiations will actually have been concluded. Where we have not started, the negotiations might still be continuing.

With regards to eThekwini municipality in particular, there are challenges there. And as the Department of Transport, we have instructed eThekwini Metro to continue negotiating,
particularly with the taxi industry, because the impasse is between the metro and the taxi industry. We look at the framework and the National Land Transport Act, NLTA, as the Department of Transport.

Good, as we allow metros and municipalities to come up with some ... you know good suggestion but those must be in line with the Act. When whatever proposal is not in line with the Act, we can’t support that. So, yes with eThekwini Municipality and Metro, there are issues particularly between the metro and the taxi industry. We are trying to intervene, so that the solution can be find as quickly as possible. Thank you very much hon House Chairperson.

Question 254:

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Lesoma, for the question. The Shosholoza Meyl is currently operating high pick services on two routes, that is Johannesburg to East London, and Johannesburg to Musina, having resumed services in December 2021. The other routes were suspended due to operational and infrastructure challenges. The plans to restore Shosholoza Meyl services have been categorised into short, as well as medium-term periods.
That is, under short-term, we plan to ensure that, there is an availability of diesel locomotives to run services currently, but also, we plan to renegotiate access and haulage fees with Transnet. In this regard, the short-term plans are envisaged to be implemented in the 2023-24 financial year, up to the next three years, while the long-term plans will be undertaken for the next five years. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. I have been informed that hon Khumalo will take the first supplementary question on behalf of hon Lesoma, in accordance with Rule 137(10)(a). I now recognise hon Khumalo.

Ms F E KHUMALO: Through you, House Chair, Minister, thank you for your positive response. What work will the Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, undertake to improve the performance of the services through utilising more efficient locomotives?
Thank you, House Chair.


The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: In dealing with the situation, Prasa initiated a releasing process of at least 16 busy locomotives for shunting operations and long-distance services in the open market. The process is at the procurement stage, and the business expects the delivery of these locomotives at
least at the end of July this year. There is an appointment of the goal contractors, with more focus will be on the long distance. We expect that we will be receiving the Main Line Passenger Services and 20 of coaches, and for that, we believe that these will be delivered by August this year.

The next service to be introduced is, of course, Johannesburg to Durban and of course, Johannesburg to Cape Town routes.
These are the routes that have a demand in terms of the Main Line Passenger Rail Services, and these will resume in the current financial year, and Prasa will continue to run a special train service such as, as you would be aware about the Comrades Marathon Services, Makhufe Jazz Festival and to return the premier class to its former glory. We hope it will happen. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr T B MABHENA: Through you, Chair, Minister, I hear you. However, in 2009 Prasa was moving almost 4 million passengers per annum, compared to a paltry 12 000 passengers. Over the last 13 years, Prasa has lost a frightening 99,5% of its passenger numbers. In 2010, Prasa’s fare revenue collection stood at R228 million compared to the horrific R2,8 million in 2021. The railway agency remains a financial risk to the
fiscus. Nothing works at Prasa, it is broken. It took so long for you to fire the board chairperson.

Why can’t you devolve these rail services to capable and competent provincial authorities such as the Western Cape Provincial Government and the City of Cape town Metro Municipality? Can you make a commitment, and can you give us timelines, when are you going to start the devolving of that process and giving them to the City of Cape Town? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon member, the Cape Town Metro is just failing to do one simple thing, to remove people from the rail reserve in the areas of Khayelitsha and Philippi, despite the fact that they have been given money of R219 million by the Department of Human Settlements. They are failing just to do that. Now, if you are talking about running passenger rail, there are some things that I don’t believe you can manage, if you are failing to just get land for people, so that we can continue to address ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson, sorry, hon Minister. Hon Macpherson, please, don’t drown the
Minister. Hon Mabhena, she is replying to your question. Hon Minister, could you please continue?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, he said that Cape Town is doing the best, it’s not. They’ve got money, they must assist us to relocate those people, simple, and find land, because there is land. On the issue of Prasa, Chairperson, Prasa is on the right track, it is recovering corridors. It planned to recover 10 corridors in the past financial year, and it has recovered 13. We aim to recover 16 corridors this financial year and to recover a number of stations.

I also want to believe that we plan to recover about 33 stations and 16 additional corridors. So, yes, we are improving, we are providing the services and our people are actually appreciating that, even people from Cape Town. All they require, is for the Cape Town mayor to assist us to remove and relocate people that are occupying the rail reserves. They’ve got money, it’s been transferred to them, let them identify the land, so that those people can occupy formal houses. Thank you very much, Chair.

MS N J NOLUTSHUNGU: Through you, Chair, Minister, our present reality is that there are no railway services across the
country, and that the attempts to resolve some of these nonfunctioning railway lines have been met with violence and intimidation, particularly in Cape Town. What is the full scope of the challenges facing the metro rail services in Cape Town, and what have you done to overcome these challenges?
Thank you.


The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon member, in Cape Town for instance, we have recovered the central line up to, I think, Nyanga. Already, we’ve got a contractor that has been appointed. All that is remaining, is for the metro to assist us to relocate people from the reserves. We plan to recover four more stations in Cape Town, but also, we aim to ensure that we restore the signalling, which is important, so that more trains can be run. If you don’t have signalling, and you are managing trains manually, you can only run a train with 25 minutes in between.

However, if you have the modern signalling that is working, you can have trains run in there minutes apart, and this is what we are looking forward to. Indeed, we agree that there was lot of vandalism that happened, particularly during the Covid stage, when we were not running our trains. However, we are trying to recover those, and there is a lot that is
happening now because our people do want to use passenger trains. So, that is why we are moving towards that. Thank you, Chair.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Through you, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, our roads in South Africa have become more dangerous due to the over reliance of road network by trucks and insufficient rail network. I would like to know, what plans does the department have, and by when to build, fix and repair all major network roads, especially those that run from Gauteng to KwaZulu-Natal, in order to enable the commuters and freight trains to operate, and when will the communities receive such plans? Thank you very much, hon Chair.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, let me thank hon Sithole fore the question, although I think that it is a new question, but I will respond to it. As the Department of Transport, we are responsible for the National Rail Policy which was adopted by the Cabinet. That National Rail Policy is calling for some measures to be taken to ensure that, effectively, we do move cargo or freight from road to rail.

Coupled with that, as the Department of Transport, the Parliament will be aware, particularly the portfolio
committee, before the NCOP now, we’ve got the Transport Economic Bill that will also ensure that there is access of railways and infrastructure to operators. It will also deal with the cost of accessing the infrastructure in the railway sector.

We believe that this is going to bring about some changes that we require, in a way that will speed up the movement of freight from road to rail. As the member has said, we are desperately looking forward to that because, particularly the entry that the member is referring to, indeed, it can no longer accommodate the number of trucks that are moving from that corridor. About 9 500 trucks per day make the SA National Road Agency Limited, SANRAL, not to be able to manage and maintain that road as expected. The lifespan of that road is shorter.

So, yes, we are a policy department, we have the National Rail Policy, we have the Transport Economic Regulator, TER, that is before Parliament, and we believe that it will be speeded up so that we can then have it as the legislation that will help us to deal with some of the issues. Thank you very much, Chair.
Question 267:

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I am not sure whether I am audible.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You are. You may proceed.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you very much House Chairperson and thank you hon Hunsinger for the question. The incident that occurred on the 18 April 2023 at the Cape Town International Airport was due to a major power cable fault on the air side which was created by a power surge that damaged the power supply, the fibre network and run multiple components of the automated weather observing systems.
Including the components that calculates the runway visual range.

In that case, equally on the same day, there was a dense fog that made visibility low and with our runway visual range not working, landing became a huge risk. A decision to divert all aircraft destined to the airport as a safety measure, as this happened all the time if there are such, was therefore taken. The weather further deteriorated to about 100 metres visibility and the decision therefore to divert those
aircrafts proved to be a correct safety intervention. The effect was that 11 aircraft were affected and therefore diverted nine domestic, one regional, and one international aircraft.

At about 9:30, the weather improved, and aircrafts were allowed to land safely, and the runway visual range, RVR, was reinstated in the afternoon. The notice was then cancelled as per the procedure. There is no requirement to report such incident to ICAO, that is International Civil Aviation Organisation. But of course, such incident gets reported to the regulator. I thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, safety and the assurance of safe airspace is crucial for our global participation, both in passengers and cargo. Our economy and jobs depend on it. Statements from your department suspiciously claim major advances in aviation safety requirements from 87% to 92%. Despite other versions claiming that the results of the same International Aviation Inspection Report are only anticipated by the end of September in this case. In light of this, how should we accept these cheeky assertions, since several of South Africa’s airports were also downgraded in recent months?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, there isn’t any International Airport that has been downgraded in South Africa as far as I know, none at all. Secondly, with regards to our performance during the ICAO safety audit, the auditors do inform the country about the interim results, and the ICAO auditors who came from different countries of the world did inform us that we have received at least around 92%. This is adding, as Dr Hunsinger has said, onto our performance. A percent improvement in the aviation sector, you work for it.

Remember, they had to respond to more than 1000 questions, and each question has to be provided with the portfolio of evidence. I think it is important that as South Africans we give credit where it is due. Our entities in the aviation sector represented this country exceptionally good during that. As a result, South Africa is rated as number one in the continent for now. If we can then begin to question that one, we were also audited by US, audited by EU, audited by ICAO for security in the aviation. With all this, we are in category one of US security and on category one in EU as well. So, we are doing very well, and I think it’s important that we praise ourselves for doing exceptionally good when it comes to us being audited by the international bodies, also by the
Auditor-General of South Africa. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms F E KHUMALO: Thank you, House Chair. Thank you, Minister. Minister, has the airport authority repaired the guiding lending instruments at the Cape Town International Airport Which recently resulted in failure affecting aircraft landing in fog? And is there any need for routine maintenance of the guiding landing instruments at other airports? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, as I indicated in my response, this was attended to on the very same day. What we have learned out of this is that the parts, because I understand that these equipments when they are installed, have a life of about 15 years and more. But when they reach 10 years, an overhaul maintenance has to be done, and assessment as well, and this actually happened. Then these ones after 10 years, maintenance become more frequent, and this is exactly what is now happening.

But also, the very fact that one lesson that we learned is that some of the parts that were required on the day that is on the 18th, had to be transported from, I think Pretoria.
What they have done now is to have some of the parts in our international airports particularly, King Shaka, Cape Town, as well as OR Tambo so that in an event of something like that happens the parts are not far away.
However, I must indicate that there is indeed a plan by Aksa to renovate all this, and to put new systems in this regard. This is planned by Aksa to happen at OR Tambo, Cape Town, King Shaka, and of course, Chief Dawid Stuurman and King Phalo airports. This is the plan that we have already through Airports Company South Africa. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Ms N J NOLUTSHUNGU: Thank you, Chair. Minister, what mechanism is used to test the condition of the guiding instrument That regulates air traffic? How often is it serviced and why was it not picked up sooner that the instrument was faulty?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Like I indicated, one of the reasons why we had that was because of electricity shed, load shedding, and that actually affected the parts. So, it could not have been anticipated because the maintenance itself is done on schedule. So, it’s not about the maintenance not being done, it is done, and it was on schedule and the records prove that beyond reasonable doubt. But then it happened. One thing good about this is that when it happened, decisions were taken to say because there is fog, but also it is coupled with the challenge with the parts, then the aircrafts have to be diverted.
There is a plan, like I am saying, of maintenance. This maintenance is offered by our air traffic navigation services, and it is on time. It is properly done, and it could not have been anticipated. But of course, the load shedding does have some impact, despite the fact that there is backup system in an event load shedding happens. But when electricity goes, and comes back, it does affect some pattern. In this case, it did affect and of course like I’ve said, it was repaired on the same day. That is why when the weather cleared, then of course the aircrafts were allowed to land in Cape Town. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, the failure of guidance system for aircraft is received for disaster waiting for happens, especially given the fact that thousands of South Africans make use of aircraft every day, including Members of Parliament. So, the question is whether the department has worked with the Civic Aviation Authority to conduct oversight over all medium airport in South Africa to ensure compliance of all equipment in relation to international standards. Which are those airports that do not comply? Thank you very much, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, our airports are complying. I just want to emphasise this point. In particularly, our international airports that are owned by Aksa are complying with international standards, and this is proven by our audit results by different international bodies including our Auditor-General. So, I just want to emphasise that point.
However, like it happens everywhere in the world, it may happen that a particular system fails. In this case and coupled with weather as well, we have backup systems if it’s not a part that is damaged.

If any system fails, for instance, in the air traffic navigation services, there will always be a backup system that kicks in. Sometimes that will even include manual procedures that get implemented by our air traffic controllers. But also, in an event when even the manual procedures fail, we also have the radar that we use which the air traffic controllers can use to communicate with the pilots to inform them to delay so that there is adequate space between the aircrafts that are to land.

So, there are quite a number of systems that we use in the country and in the aviation space to ensure and to prevent any eventuality of any incident for that matter. But any incident
again in the aviation sector, gets reported to the regulator for the regulator for the regulator to intervene and probably to even investigate if there is such a need. So yes, when decisions get taken well on time to say that we have this challenge, so we are diverting you, this is what happens all over the world. It is not unique to South Africa. It happens in big airports in the world where there is any minor or major incident that might endanger the landing of the aircraft, and this is exactly what happened. I think we need to appreciate and congratulate those who take the decisions to do exactly that. Thank you very much, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. Question number 302 has been asked by the hon Mathulela to the Minister of Small Business Development. I have been informed that the Minister and Deputy Minister are not available. The Minister requested for the Question to stand over. Therefore, the Question to the Minister of Small Business Development will stand over in terms of Rules 144 (1)(a) and 144(2). Question 255 has been asked by the hon S F Van Schalkwyk to the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure.

Question 255:

of the head of the Infrastructure SA, ISA, was advertised in April of this year. The process of filling the position is ongoing and the position is funded.

Among the priorities of the ISA is to ensure that we provide strategic technical and financial advisory support to project sponsors, especially at the planning, preparatory and development phases of the projects that are enlisted within the national pipeline.

The second priority is to monitor the level of implementation and address all regulatory and technical blockages that emerge in the implementation of the 88 strategic integrated projects.

Then, we draft and publish the Infrastructure Development Amendment Bill for public consultation to provide for the establishment of the ISA, as it has happened.

We have also developed the National Infrastructure Plan 2050 and we are responsible for the monitoring of such a plan.
Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms S R VAN SCHALKWYK: Hon Minister, surely these 88 strategic infrastructure projects is a project of priority in terms of our national government’s priorities and we really need to see it being aligned to the promise made by our hon President when he said that infrastructure development will be prioritised in this term and we will see a massive roll out throughout ...

So, I want to know the following. Seeing that this ANC-led government is prioritising people of all levels, including the poor and in different classes, we need to know what are the social and economic benefits of the proposed infrastructure development for communities and will this infrastructure development enable further linked infrastructure development to occur across the country in both urban as well as rural areas?


a lot of social and economic benefits for communities that are around the areas of these projects. One of these projects includes the Kliphoek bulk water supply, which is in Moretele North. This is a R5,2 billion regional bulk water scheme which aims to provide water in the whole district in areas around Bela Bela. We also include in this project ... We estimate that we will create 1 980 jobs and ensure the provision of
drinkable water and reduce unhealthy hazards. However, we will also ensure that more than 200 000 households in the area will benefit. Moreover, people who are around this project will also receive skills development.

This is not the only project. We are also fast-tracking the implementation of projects such as the uMkhomazi Water Project, water projects that are in various areas, such as Umtamvuna, and we are also focused on the implementation of social housing projects, wherein the public sector is investing a lot.

The last area of this 88 ... is in energy and we are also ensuring that communities around areas where projects are located benefit. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr I S SEITLHOLO: Hon Minister, with the current Minister of Electricity, ntate Ramokgopa, having been moved, I want to establish who has replaced him as this is a key position which requires skills. What progress has been made in replacing him and what will happen to the projects that the current Minister of Electricity had been managing, given the fact that this is a critical position which requires engineering skills and which requires financial management skills, and which does not
require the recruitment of a comrade or a cadre who is going to occupy this particular position? Thank you very much.

have built quite good infrastructure in the ISA. Currently, deputy director-general Mameetse is leading the ISA. As I have said, we are in the process of filling the position. We have advertised. We have closed ... and we will be conducting interviews. We are committed to ensuring that all institutions are led by skilled people with the relevant expertise and experience. Thank you.

Ms A M SIWISA: Minister, taking into consideration that at this moment we still have novice contactors that never get an opportunity because the department itself still focusses on contractors that have been there since the former apartheid regime, what plans do you have to ensure that novice contractors are actually given employment opportunities due to the high rate of unemployment in South Africa, and are these novice contractors going to be given opportunities by the ISA in projects that are coming up?

are continuing to ensure that, through the public procurement
framework, we give opportunities to all people in the country, including vulnerable groups such as the youth, women, people who are disabled and military veterans. We will never fall into the trap where we will be in a position of giving contracts through any entity that will lead in a way that compromises the procurement framework.

At the same time, I must also say that we are mindful that we need to build the capacity of the state and that’s why institutions like the ISA are in place where we are drawing in the expertise that is relevant and quite requisite for the build industry. Thank you.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Minister, when you delivered your budget speech, you highlighted your department’s determination to enhance participation by local communities in projects and also to drive localisation.

Was this some sort of admission that your government has totally failed to collaborate with local people, and what are the details that you can give so far as to how much you have gone, in as far as ensuring what you have undertaken to do?

an admission but it was a continuation ... an affirmation of the continuing programme of addressing the legacy or the injustices of the past. Through ensuring localisation, we are empowering communities that were deprived for a long period. The people of South Africa suffered under apartheid and colonialism for more than three decades and we will continue to ensure that economic opportunities are opened for all local communities.

Among others, we are also ensuring that we strengthen facilitation. Where you will find tension between local communities and project leaders, we ensure that there is facilitation because what we have committed to do is to ensure localisation, but to fight criminality, as we have seen with regard to a number of forums which are moving around construction sites disrupting ... and extorting money from project promoters. We are not going to tolerate that because it is criminal. We will deal with it head-on. However, where people want to enter the build industry, we will support them through legal means that are in place. Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon members, the time allocated for
questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can I have your attention please? This is feedback on the allegations of unparliamentary remarks which were made on
9 May 2023. Order, hon members.

During the debate on Budget Vote No 31 — Employment and Labour on 9 May 2023, Mr C H H Hunsinger rose on a point of order in terms of Rule 85, directed at the Minister of Employment and Labour, hon T Nxesi, and said, ”I want to bring to your attention for serious consideration what the Minister said now on this platform on the basis of accusing members of a particular race of the DA as being of a particular nature through their membership of a political party in representing the people of South Africa in the political party, the DA”.

It is noteworthy that in this point of order the hon Hunsinger did not specify the words or phrases or comments he found
objectionable or unparliamentary in the Minister’s speech. That had to be surmised from the immediate context of the point of order.

At the time the point of order was raised, I indicated that I would look into the matter and revert to the House with a considered ruling.

Having studied the Unrevised Hansard, I rule as follows, hon members. The point of order seems to have been triggered by the comments made by the Minister just before it was raised. The Minister had taken issue with Mr Cardo, Member of Parliament, who had referred to the ANC as being a “so-called liberation party”. He then abruptly changed course and said that a black person who was still defending the DA was a “rented black”. He did not directly or indirectly use the reference “rented black” to refer to the members of the DA that are also members of the Assembly. While the rules clearly and necessarily prohibit reflections on members, they do not forbid reflections on formations of groupings. If the remarks of the Minister had been specifically directed at the members of the Assembly, then the comment would’ve been unparliamentary.
However, this was not the case in this instance. Therefore, I do not find the remarks to be unparliamentary. Thank you.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Point of order, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hunsinger, I will not allow it. I have made a ruling. If you have some reservations about it, there are rules that you need to follow. You are welcome to do so.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Thank you, Chairperson.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members. May I proceed? During her speech in the debate on Budget Vote No 1 — The Presidency on 31 May 2023, the hon Minister of International Relations and Co-operation said, “Our aim is to contribute to addressing the triple challenges of joblessness, poverty and inequality. Your rowdy chap was here, useless as ever. So, keep quiet now”. Hon Macpherson rose on a point of order and appealed to the Chair to rule in terms of Rule 85
because the hon Minister had reflected on the hon McGluwa by calling him “useless”. Hon Macpherson erred in asking the Chair to rule in terms of Rule 85, instead of Rule 84. I nonetheless informed the House that I would check Hansard and revert with a ruling.

Hon members, having had the opportunity to check Hansard, I rule as follows. National Assembly Rule 84 prohibits members from using offensive, abusive, insulting, disrespectful, unbecoming or unparliamentary words or language. The word “useless” has on several occasions been ruled as unparliamentary when directed at a member of the House. The hon Minister did not refer to the hon McGluwa by name but to a “rowdy chap” who had been at the podium. Hon McGluwa is the member who had just spoken from the podium before the hon Minister. As she rose without being recognised by the Chair to defend herself, the hon Minister emphasised that she could’ve been referring to any other member in the House, such as the hon Mbhele or the hon Faber or an hon member at the back.
Noteworthy is the fact that the hon Minister limited ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No, no, we cannot allow that gesture by hon Cachalia. As he leaves the House, he
cannot do that. He cannot do that. It’s unparliamentary. He cannot do that. Hu-uh.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much. I will revert to that, hon Chief Whip.



yintoni tata?

Please man ...


... ndithetha noSihlalo andithethi nawe, tshini.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip? Thank you, hon Chief Whip. I will look into that and deal with it later.

Noteworthy is the fact that the hon Minister limited the probable targets of her remark to members of the House only. Therefore, in this context, the hon Minister transgressed Rule
84 by referring to hon McGluwa as a “rowdy chap” and “as useless as ever”. The hon Minister is therefore kindly requested to withdraw the remark that the hon McGluwa is a “rowdy chap” and that he is “as useless as ever”. Is the hon Minister there?

I am here, hon Chairperson, and I withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon members, you are kindly requested to stand until the Chairperson and the mace have left the House. That concludes the business of the day and the House is adjourned.

The House adjourned at 18:20.




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