Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 30 May 2023


No summary available.


TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2023
Watch: Plenary


The House met at 14:02.

The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me welcome you all, even the staff of Parliament that is here today. You are welcome into the Chamber, as I will be asking the Secretary to read the First Order.


Debate on Vote No 2 – Parliament:

The SPEAKER: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, senior managers of Parliament, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, today we present to you the 2023-24 Budget for Vote

2, with a great sense of optimism for the continued journey of recovery for the institution of Parliament. Over the past 12 months, which is also the period under review for this Budget Vote debate, we have seen remarkable progress to reinstate normal operations and functionality of Parliament following the devastating effects of both the global coronavirus disease, Covid-19, pandemic and the fire disaster in 2022. The stabilisation effort has since seen us establish a firm governance framework, including strengthening strategic leadership of the institution through the appointment of, amongst others, the Secretary to Parliament and the chief financial officer. Parliament is also in the process of appointing a new chief security officer after the job profile was reviewed.

Hon members, as you are aware, next year, 2024, marks 30 years of democracy and the first democratic Parliament of South Africa. As we approach the 30th anniversary of South Africa’s democracy, it is a time for us to reflect on our journey towards a free and democratic society. It is a journey that has been marked by both challenges and triumphs, but one that has ultimately led us to where we are today, a land of opportunity and hope. The democratic Parliament of South Africa has played a critical role in supporting our democracy

and development over the years. It has been a voice for all South Africans and has worked tirelessly to ensure that our people’s rights and freedoms are protected.

As we look back at the progress our nation has made in realising the true social change, we will also have to conduct a review of the role that Parliament has played in supporting the building of united, nonracial, nonsexist and democratic society where there’s equality and opportunities for all.
Overall, through its legislative and oversight functions, the Parliament has helped to create a legal framework that has enabled us to build a democratic and free society. We have passed laws that have protected the rights of our citizens, especially the vulnerable groups, enshrining the right to vote, universal access to education, health care and the right to a fair administration and justice. Over the past three decades, Parliament has also been instrumental in advancing the economic development of our people, passing laws that have encouraged foreign investment, promoted entrepreneurship, and supported small businesses. There has been encouraging levels of progress in reducing poverty and increasing access to economic opportunities for the previously disadvantaged and women in particular.

As we approach the 30th anniversary of our democracy in 2024, we therefore, must acknowledge the achievements of the democratic Parliament of South Africa. It has played a vital role in shaping our nation, and we owe a debt of gratitude to those who have served in this House over the years. However, our work is not yet done, and there are still many challenges that remain. Despite progress in reducing poverty, inequality remains high, and unemployment remains a major challenge. The Covid-19 pandemic has made these challenges even more acute, with many people losing their jobs and struggling to make ends meet. Another key challenge that we face is the capacity of the state. While progress has been made in building institutions that support democracy, there are still significant gaps in the capacity of the state to deliver services effectively. Corruption and mismanagement continue to be major obstacles to progress.

The economic effects of the Covid-19 pandemic, lost jobs and delayed investments are being exacerbated by inadequate electricity supply with the highest levels of load shedding to date. It is estimated that load shedding may have reduced gross domestic product, GDP, for 2022 by as much as 1,3%. As we look to the future, it is clear that we must continue to work together to address these challenges. The National

Development Plan requires that South Africa must build a capable developmental state able to respond to the needs of the people. To attain the aspirations of a capable developmental state, the country needs a transformative Parliament that acts as an agent of change which ensures acceleration of delivery. It must enhance oversight and accountability, stabilise the political administrative interface, professionalise the public service, upgrade skills and improve co-ordination. It also needs a more pragmatic and proactive approach to managing the intergovernmental system to ensure a better fit between responsibility and capacity.
Parliament’s constitutional role in holding the executive to account must be pronounced by the manner in which those development indicators are scrutinised, and the executive is held accountable.

Under key achievements of 2022, hon members, the previous financial year that of 2022-23, was fundamentally influenced by the great loss of the National Assembly and adjacent building complexes. Despite this loss, Parliament has managed to forge ahead and exercise its constitutional tasks with dedication and diligence. The National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces through its plenaries and committees continued to adapt to these challenges with

physical and hybrid proceedings. Parliament continued to strengthen its interface with the people in pursuit of its lawmaking, oversight and public participation programme.
Oversight visits, public hearings, committee meetings and certain ad hoc meetings of Parliament increased compared to the previous year.

Parliament’s constitutional mandate of lawmaking was successfully executed. Parliament passed 27 Bills during this period, across all the clusters of our committees. These have covered matters ranging from issues affecting the environment, economic infrastructure, criminal procedure, taxation, drug trafficking and the Electoral Laws Amendment. Parliament also passed the national budget for the applicable financial years, namely, the Division of Revenue Bills and Appropriation Bills. In the following year, we will particularly look into some of the legislation aimed at strengthening the functions of Parliament and its oversight, including amendments to the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, the Government Immoveable Assets Management Act and the introduction of the Legislative Sector Bill.

In the aftermath of the fire disaster and the many structural vulnerabilities that contributed to such extensive damage, we

need to amend the Government Immoveable Assets Management Act to ensure that the custodianship of Parliament assets lies with Parliament and not with the executive. This will bring the Government Immoveable Assets Management Act in line with the provisions of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, which places such custodianship under the Secretary to Parliament. After the visit undertaken by the management team to check the state of the parliamentary villages, the Secretary to Parliament, STP, will submit a report on their observations and recommendations to improve the state of the accommodation of members.

However, there’s already an urgent need to review the Parliamentary Village Board Act as it does not reflect the primary interests of Members of Parliament. In addition, the definition of the precincts of Parliament as captured in the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act may provide a solution to how parliamentary villages are managed and dealt with in the future.

As an activist Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people, the institution continued to strengthen measures ensuring greater accountability and oversight over the executive. Both Houses held sittings that dealt with debates

on issues of national importance, reports, policy, and Bills. The Judicial Commission of Inquiry into State Capture reports reflected on the oversight work done by committees and the Houses. The commission whilst acknowledging some good work done in our committees, identified the need for more investment to support members and to ensure we have the necessary skills and competencies in the administration to improve the oversight mandate of Parliament. We endorsed these findings and Parliament is committed to ensure the implementation of these recommendations including those recommendations referred to portfolio and select committees.

The public participation model directs these core mandates of Parliament. With the lockdown levels removed, we have seen a number of committees resuming physical public hearings and ensuring direct engagement with citizens on key pieces of legislation. There is however room for improvement to ensure that marginalised communities are not left out in the cold with the emphasis on social media and electronic communication strategies. To this end the administration is focussed in ensuring that citizens get to know Parliament better and are more informed on how to participate in our processes. An intensive education curriculum will be developed first and

foremost to ensure that citizens can distinguish between Parliament and the executive.

Under international engagement, several of South Africa’s challenges can only be addressed through improved international and regional co-operation. During 2022, and in the first and second quarter of 2023, Parliament continued with its work on regional, continental and international platforms. It further adopted the following international agreements, key amongst them being: The Protocol to the African Charter on Human and Peoples Rights on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in Africa; Multilateral Convention to implement tax treaty related measures to prevent base erosion and profit shifting; and the Southern African Development Community, SADC, Parliamentary Forum Agreement was signed by South Africa in March 2023. South Africa has since joined other SADC countries that have signed this Treaty, which serves to transform the forum into a SADC Parliament as an organ of SADC. The SADC Parliament is a positive step towards strengthening our SADC regional parliaments to participate effectively in the regional integration and economic development. It also allows cohesion of the region and the harmonisation of our model laws.

Hon members, the conflict between Russia and Ukraine continues to pose a threat to global peace building efforts. As part of the Interparliamentary Parliamentary Union, IPU, the South African Parliament together with Namibia, is among the members of the IPU Task Force, which was set up in 2022, to engage with both the Parliaments of Russia and Ukraine. The recent step taken by the African Union heads of state to engage both presidents of the two countries is to be applauded. The IPU Task Force will work to support and strengthen this initiative. On the same note, let me also highlight the issue in relation to the need to review the implementation Act of the Rome Statute, to ensure that South Africa as a sovereign state, is able to advance her own national interests and sovereignty, whether in addressing the political or economic needs.

Under legislative sector consolidation, hon members, the National Speakers Forum has continued to function effectively and is registering considerable progress in efforts to strengthen and optimise the legislative sector as a distinct and fully capacitated arm of the state. Both the national Parliament and provincial legislatures have also continued to engage in efforts to strengthen the oversight mechanisms and approach. At its last meeting held at the end of March 2023,

the forum received reports on the finalisation of all the legal instruments required to fully constitute the sector and its governance structures. The STP also presented the consolidated legislative sector budget for 2022-23, to be discussed with the National Treasury.

Hon members, the Auditor-General has issued Parliament with clean audit outcome for the year in review. Also, critical to note is that, despite the declining fiscal allocations caused by deteriorating economic conditions, the control environment remained strong, as the Audit Committee, internal audit and the risk management capacity progressively improved.

In order to prepare the institution for this transition, a review of the institutional strategy was conducted in November 2022, with the theme of “Improving the quality of governance and accountability through enhanced oversight”. The deliberations from the session culminated in a draft macro framework for the Seventh Parliament, including the following strategic items: Ensuring a transformative Parliament to drive the attainment of national development outcomes, as reflected in the National Development Plan, NDP; being a responsive Parliament that addresses the shortcomings of Parliament, as pointed out by civil society and the Commission on State

Capture; collaborative engagement to form new partnerships in order to harness the strength of combined effort; engagement with stakeholders so as to meet expectations and needs of South Africans; and operational excellence ensuring a more effective and efficient institution.

Moving the institution into this new strategic direction will require significant transformation and change. It is therefore acknowledged that a business-as-usual approach to strategy and its execution, will not be feasible and that a transformative strategy will be required to drive the change necessary to ensure effectiveness and efficiency of the institution. Some of the transformational targets are set out in 2023-24: Programme 1, for instance, high-level change management plan to ensure transformation of the institution will be done; implement the plan for the restoration of parliamentary buildings; implement an institutional process ensuring strategic clarity; review and optimise the business model for Parliament; and develop and implement a new broadcasting strategy for the Seventh Parliament. With Programme 2, will deal with implementation of the recommendations of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into State Capture; development and implementation of an oversight priority model to ensure focus on critical areas; scorecards for Parliament, the

National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces and committees, to cascade and align strategy; review of Parliament’s capability to implement its international priorities aligned to the national agenda; and lastly, develop and implement an oversight monitoring and tracking mechanism.

In early January 2022, large parts of the National Assembly and Old Assembly buildings were damaged by fire. This resulted in Parliament utilising alternative facilities to host activities of joint sittings, sittings of the National Assembly, and office accommodation for members and support staff. Whereas a return to more normal parliamentary operations were expected by 2022, the fire damage is necessitating the continued use of hybrid proceedings in order to fulfil the functions of Parliament. The parliamentary precinct remains under serious strain, and facilities require reconstruction, renovation and modernisation.

The 2023-24 budget for Parliament Vote 2 is set against the backdrop of declining budgets in the state as a whole. The present downward trend is forecast to continue during the medium-term. Slower economic growth is now expected, putting more pressure on Parliament to manage its own budget downwards. In recent years Parliament implemented cost

containment measures and efficiency initiatives. The measures due reduced operational cost and ensured mission critical activities in the value chain of Parliament. Although there is currently a budget shortfall, the low rate of expenditure on certain items as indicated above, has resulted in unspent funds. These funds will be used to address the shortfall for the 2023-24 budget. However, without taking steps to correct the allocation or reducing expenditure, a significant budget shortfall could occur in years to come. In addition to the reduced budget, the composition of Vote 2 carries structural challenges skewing the appearance of resource availability.
Whereas the overall budget appears to be significant for 2023- 24, the amount available for discretionary allocation is small. The accounting officer has limited control over the following allocations in the budget: Direct charge for members’ remuneration; transfers to political parties; Parliamentary and Provincial Medical Aid Scheme, Parmed, repayments; facilities for members; benefits for former members; salary adjustments decided by the sector bargaining process; and contingent liabilities. The composition of the budget should be reviewed to reflect the availability and use of resources in a more accurate way.

Vote 2, the total budget for Parliament amounts to R4,351 billion. The total allocation received from the
National Treasury amounts to R3,895 billion. The shortfall is the amount of R456 million. Now, this will be funded by retained earnings, donor funding and revenue of Parliament.
This shortfall is largely driven by the cost of employment. The National Treasury allocation for compensation of employees amounts to R965 million, whilst the projected expenditure is R1,323 billion. The baseline reductions have caused significant strain on the budget and will need to be addressed by cost-saving measures that Parliament has already initiated. These include a revision of travel policy, voluntary early retirement dispensation and organisational realignment.

In addition, inflation is expected to remain high, driving up the cost of Parliament’s goods and services. Parliament officials will therefore have to engage National Treasury on the impending shortfalls in the allocation of the Parliament’s budget to enable Parliament to exercise its constitutional mandate. The Parliamentary Budget Office, a separate entity in terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, receives a transfer payment under Programme 3 and will need more funding over time to function effectively. Also included in this 2023-24 appropriation is an amount of

R58 million to be utilised to achieve Parliament’s new transformational targets, which are incorporated to drive the new strategic direction towards the seventh parliamentary term. Parliament will embark on preparing the strategic plan and budgeting for the Seventh Parliament. The officials of the National Treasury and Parliament will engage to ensure that the seventh strategy is fully funded.

Under restoration of Parliament, hon members, in relation to the restoration of the infrastructure destroyed in the fire, Parliament will direct a rebuilding project, implemented through the Development Bank of South Africa and other stakeholders, including the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and the National Treasury. The National Treasury has already allocated an amount of R118 million for the 2023-24 financial year which will include funding for office accommodation and other unforeseen expenditure, during the Medium-Term Budget Statement. The Treasury also made a firm commitment to cover the rest of the financial requirements for the restoration of its infrastructure and will allocate a total budget of R2 billion over the course of the restoration. We envisage that, although much of the work of the restoration will happen during the next year in 2024, the total restoration work will only be finalised by 2025.

In conclusion, hon members, we are satisfied that the plans and efforts we have put in place for the recovery of the institution, including the new governance framework, are starting to yield results. What is even more important is that the transformation trajectory we are placing the institution on, will benefit our people’s experience of the benefits of democracy and freedom. I want to thank, hon members, officials and the management team as led by the Secretary to Parliament for the work they have been doing to drive the recovery and business continuity of Parliament. The body of work that we are presenting here today is a product of this hard work, which at times has to be done under very difficult conditions following the two disruptive disasters of the past three years.

I also want to thank, hon members, as the key representatives of this institution for your support, especially the guidance and oversight of the Joint Standing Committee on the Financial Management of Parliament. It’s not always easy, but you keep us on our toes. All this to ensure proper and prudent use of public resources and to ensure accountability. I thank the presiding officers in this Houses and in the NCOP, and all political parties for your continued commitment to serve our nation and to watch over our democracy.

Lastly, hon members, as I step down, two weeks ago the Standing Committee the Financial Management of Parliament had an opportunity to access the building. The National Assembly Chamber completely dilapidated, completely destroyed, nothing in there to talk about, and basically, we expect that we may be told that we will start everything from the beginning. We may as well have to destroy even the walls which are there.
However, I would like, hon members, to take note of one thing which we all noted when we went into that Chamber, and that is the flag of the Republic of South Africa which remains flying. The flag is there and for me what it means is that that flag represents the aspirations of the people of South Africa.

Therefore, whether we are here and we are not done with the restoration of Parliament, or we are under a tree, but the aspirations of the people of South Africa should inform the agenda of Parliament. Therefore, I think all of us should actually take comfort in the fact that you have a Parliament which is destroyed, but you have aspirations of the people of democracy, of nonsexism, and of South Africa, of a nonracial society. They remain there flying. I just thought that this is something which we need to share because that flag represents both the Constitution and the desires of our people. Thank you.


Chairperson, Madam Speaker, Deputy Speaker, hon members, our guests who are in the House, the year 2024 will represent 30 years since the breakthrough to a constitutional democracy. As a new nation we began a new chapter departing from the colonial and apartheid system which preserved Parliament as an institution that protects and preserves the rights and interests of the white minority. The establishment of the Union of South Africa in 2010 entrenched the unity of the white minority as enacted by the British Parliament. They united on a common understanding of the exclusion of the natives in the polity of the country. The struggle wedged by the people of South Africa, liberation movements across and the progressive people of the world realised the freedom of black South Africans. This gave birth to a nation founded on building inclusive society, a nation where black and white are equal, a nation committed to addressing the injustices of the past. It took 90 years before any African men or woman was elected to the South African Parliament.

The ANC has ensured that this tribune of the people serves the interests of the people through enacting various transformative legislations which seek to address poverty, unemployment, inequality and protect human rights. We have

developed legislations to affirm gender mainstreaming to ensure that we push back the frontiers of patriarchal practices for a just and gender equal society. We continue to adopt legislations which seek to transform our society. the social and economic transformation of our society will require us to continually adopt legislation which enable the resolutions of hindrances of transformation.

We have recently adopted the 18th Amendment Bill to amend section 6 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. The amendment is to include South African Sign Language as an official language to promote the rights of persons who are deaf and those with hearing disabilities. This is a transformative development which represents strides of advancing equity and justice.

Hon Chairperson, as we debate Budget Vote 2 on Parliament, we should remember the first democratic Parliament Madam Frene Ginwala who served from 1994 to 2004. It is her and other noble South Africans who laid the ground for a paradigm shift towards a national democratic society to realise representative South Africa. Mother Frene Ginwala, our first democratic Speaker of Parliament, in her Chief Aubert Memorial

Lecture at the University of the University of KwaZulu-Natal, UKZN, on 16 November 2013, alluded that, and I quote:

In reality, our country had been divided spatially on the apartheid principles. It was obvious we needed to introduce an electoral system that was inclusive and which would receive the support of all our people. A system that requires the demarcation of constituencies would coincide with the special divisions of apartheid resulting in a particular group voting for candidates on racial lines hence we advocated for a proportional representation system with no minimum requirements. This would allow a large number of political parties to be represented in Parliament.

Later the Slabbert Commission indicated that the ANC majority in the 1999 elections would have been over 80% if based on constituencies. Nonetheless, we retain the system we still have though it might not provide the majority we desired for.

Hon Chairperson, this hon House is in consistent with the promotion of diverse representation in our governance system as every voice matters. In the next coming general elections

we will have an additional component of members elected as independents. This is part of our maturity democracy to ensure representation. With this said, Parliament will have to begin to prepare itself for the electoral amendments like already we have passed that Bill changes and ensure Parliament adapts to the changes to support the will of the people.

The devastating incident of 02 January 2022, where our august House was burnt down has not only destroyed a heritage site and its values, but it has also destructed the functioning of Parliament as we know it. We must recognise that the COVID-19 pandemic adaptation of functioning of Parliament has enabled the business of the Houses to continue without disruptions on virtual and hybrid platforms. This is critical to point out that despite certain parliamentary buildings being burnt down, the business of the National Assembly has continued and all portfolio committees execute their functions with no fail.

Digitalisation is the present and future and our Parliament should continue to adopt digital solutions to enhance its various functions. Digitalisation has also contributed in serving funds due to the reduction of high logistical costs as Members of Parliament, state organs, leadership and the public are able to participate in the proceedings virtually. We

welcome the various inventions by Parliament to enhance its communication and public participation through leveraging digital platforms to ensure access for the public.

We are pleased to affirm that the restoration of Parliament’s precinct has begun. Parliament has been seized with the task and appointed an implementing agent being the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, which has the capabilities to manage this critical development. We are also cognisance of the fact that the parliamentary precinct restoration should be rebuild with inclusion as an underpinning principle. It should be accessible for persons with disabilities. Parliament should be accessible for the blind and for those requiring various supports. Its symbolism should represent the diverse heritage of our country. We welcome the allocated funds for the restoration process and call for prudent use of these scarce resources. The restoration of the parliamentary precinct should bring pride as a restoration of our united heritage for generations to embrace and recognise.

We need to focus on continuously improving the legislative processes to be more participatory yet agile. The agility of processing legislation is critical as such changes are an

intervention to a problem to enhance policy implementation and advancement of constitutional imperatives.

We need to also strengthen our legal advisory services to ensure that all pieces of legislation passed in this House pass the test of time and their constitutionality. Legislation which has defects can be a hinderance of transformation as it ties the objects of legislative provisions. As this House we have constitutional duty to give effect to the consideration of recommendations that emanate from the commission of enquiry into allegations of state capture, corruption and fraud in the public sector which His Excellency the President submitted to Parliament in October 2022. Parliament received implementation plan from the President and the Rules committee and the Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament and other relevant committees are seized with the recommendations to ensure the spirit and intention of the Judicial Commission report is responded to. This will strengthen Parliament to execute its constitutional obligations to provide a national forum for the public and for consideration of issues which affect our communities, country and the world to pass legislation and scrutinise and oversee the execution action in the interest of the people.

The executive is also responding to the recommendation from the commission. As Parliament, we will oversee its implementation. The commission of enquiry report implementation plan represent a change in heightening efforts of the creation of a capable and ethical developmental state which response to the needs of the people.

We support Budget Vote 2: Parliament, and we will continue to work with Parliament under the leadership of the presiding officer the hon Madam Speaker Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula and uTata Amos Masondo and the Secretary To Parliament who steers the administration which provides required support for this arm of the state to realise its constitutional obligations and build sexist, nonracial democratic and prosperous society. As Chief Whips of political parties we are seized with the responsibility to ensure that we maintain the decorum of the House so that we can do the work that we are mandated by the Constitution to do as political parties. The ANC supports Budget Vote 2: Parliament. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, the doctrine of the separation of powers is important in a constitutional democracy. The idea that the legislature, the executive and the judiciary enjoy equal status before the law stand

alongside each other for effective checks and balances, is a hallmark of a healthy democracy. It is a reassuring feature of our democracy because we come from a history where in this very Parliament which was used to pass legislation that would oppress an entire generation of South Africans.

So, there ought to be a great appreciation of the power that this institution has to change lives for better or for worse. When governments fail, parliaments are the last line of defense for their people. After all, it is in this House where the representatives of the true will of the people are represented. However, from the First Parliament to the Sixth Parliament the steady decline of this institution has been glaring. It is as though the novelty of a hard-won democracy has worn off.

The ANC has developed an unhealthy obsession with the majority rules notion even when that ruling is wrong. You will often find the ruling party arrogantly and glibly voting up against anything regardless of how important it is because they simply of the numbers. This is the kind of arrogance and disregard for people which has preceded the fall of former liberation movements across the continent and the ANC will be no different, hon Papo. The ANC has broken Parliament over the

years for narrow political gain and for self-preservation at a great cost to this country.

The situation is so dire that the former President, Thabo Mbeki, had to pen the letter to the Deputy President, Paul Mashatile, lambasting him for the party’s conduct in Parliament. In this letter he is particularly concerned other about the fact that the ANC no longer understands the role of Members of Parliament, MPs, as representatives of the people. He equates the conduct of ANC Members of Parliament during the Nkandla scandal to the behaviour of this ANC caucus during the Phalaphala debacle.

He does so to demonstrate that there are no lessons learned during the time of the fire pool and the chicken coop that cost the people of South Africa millions of rands at the former President, Jacob Zuma’s home. You did some moral clumsy footwork then and you have repeated these theatrics when the opposition wanted Parliament to investigate the serious allegations faced by President Ramaphosa. You shut down accountability. It was the same script but a different cast.
The Jacob of Nkandla, the Cyril of Phalaphala.

The Deputy President Mashatile stood here and repeated your usual rhetoric about how the majority must have its way even when it is clearly on the wrong side of the argument. So shocking were his comments on that day. The former President says, he hopes the hon Mashatile reflects deeply on what he has said and that he finds his comments embarrassing and humiliating. Former President Mbeki even reflects on the ANC’s vote against the ad hoc committee that would investigate corruption at Eskom. He says it was very wrong that we took a decision to veto the initiation of a parliamentary process specifically focus on investigating criminal activities at Eskom.

He continued to say that it would come across to the public as very strange and disturbing that when the proposal was made that Parliament should undertake such a focused investigation into the alleged criminality at Eskom, we voted against what was imminently a correct proposal. So, Members of Parliament I have to agree with former President Mbeki that the ANC of the present day is embarrassing and humiliating. It is an absolute tragedy that the work of the Zondo Commission will never find expression in Parliament, not a single of those recommendations has been adopted and implemented. I know that the Speaker has come here to say that there is an endorsement

of the findings, but the reality is that the ANC has treated these recommendations with disdain and hostility.

You have voted down having opposition party chairs for greater accountability, you have voted down reducing a more much more rigorous way of questioning the executive through interpolations and you have dithered the introduction of the portfolio committee on the polluted presidency. We know that a working Parliament is not in the interest of the ANC. The greatest gift to the people of South Africa and to this institution would be to relegate this ANC to the opposition benches next year. In that way, we can rebuild a Parliament that ought to be what it would be.

We would build an institution that is focused on principles of accountability and transparency. We would rebuild a precinct that is accessible to the public so that they can hold their elected public representatives to account. We would ensure that the issues facing South Africans such as the cost of living crisis, the electricity crisis, the jobs crisis and safety take up the lion’s share of this House’s time. We would reject budgets that do not prioritise our people. We would ensure that those who steal from people do not find comfort in the benches of Parliament and we would make sure that this

institution remains relevant to the man and woman on the streets.

Make no mistake, Parliament does not belong to politicians. The 400 members in this house are meant to serve South Africans and protect constitutional values. We cannot do that as long as the ANC occupies the majority of these seats. The organisation has shown itself to be beyond redemption. The only way we can turn parliament around is to cut your stranglehold on the national and legislature. The day will come. You have taken your oath of office and the people of this country for way too long. So that we can serve the people in the Parliament ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: House Chairperson, the EFF turns 10 this year. It has been 10 years of unbroken struggle. When we arrived here in Parliament nearly 10 years ago, we found a dying institution; an institution that did not understand or appreciate its role in South Africa’s democracy. We found an institution characterised by European tendencies, abiding by rules and practices of colonisers. People were dressed in a particular way because Europeans who had been here before were dressed in that particular way. This legislative body did not have the capacity to draft legislation and still does not, to

this day. The majority, if not all legislation that have been passed here in this Parliament since 1996 were introduced by the executive and our ... has been to just rubber-stamp it.

In the 10 years of unbroken struggle, we have made this Parliament vibrant, and made politics fashionable and interesting. In the 10 years of unbroken struggle, we used our participation in Parliament to table progressive legislation that was meant to fundamentally change the lives of our people. We have tabled a Private Member’s Bill to amend the National Health Amendment Bill, which ensures that all clinics in South Africa are open 24 hours every day. We have tabled a Private Member’s Bill to amend the Banks Act, which now allows for the creation of a state-owned bank. We have tabled a Private Member’s Bill to nationalise the SA Reserve Bank to discontinue private ownership of the central bank. We have now finalised the Insourcing Bill to ensure that we insource security guards, cleaners, gardeners and many other workers, to build state capacity and to end the exploitation of workers.

Most recently, we introduced the Relocation of the Seat of Parliament Bill that will allow us to relocate the seat of Parliament from Cape Town to the City of Tshwane, to make

Parliament accessible, save taxpayers’ money and ensure that we do away with a racist colonial arrangement.

We have used our participation to table motions on free quality education, the increase of mine workers’ salaries and the improvement of their working conditions, the repeal of all apartheid legislation, the nationalisation of banks, and we have made substantive proposals to combat illicit financial flows.

It has been 10 years of unbroken struggle and commitment to make this Parliament the people’s Parliament. However, the reality is that we have a Parliament that continues to waste taxpayers’ money on frivolous international trips to Britain to be inducted into neoliberal practices. People use these trips as holidays and shopping sprees with money they don’t have. If the Chief Whips’ Forum trip to England proceeds, we will go to court to prevent this waste of taxpayers’ money.

The resistance and refusal to move Parliament to Tshwane is senseless and irrational. We should have used the opportunity given to us by the fire, instead of wasting billions on the restoration of colonial and apartheid heritage that does not play a transformative role in the lives of our people. We

still don’t have the final report on the internal investigation conducted into the fire.

We still don’t have a clear plan of action to be taken with regard to the recommendations on the state capture reports that were sent to the Rules Committee. We must have a moratorium on all international trips and redirect the money towards building legislative drafting unity capacity to assist Members of Parliament in drafting legislation. We must redirect the money towards language services. It is irresponsible and reckless for the Speaker to allow the collapse of language services. The unit manager is acting.
There are vacancies for isiZulu, isiXhosa, isiNdebele, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Setswana and Sepedi languages. The Speaker must tell the people of South Africa if they will not offer language services, so that our people can know that this Parliament is for English and Afrikaans speakers only.

Lastly, we want to reiterate that we condemn the poor violence and barbaric behaviour, including sexual harassment that continues to characterise Parliament, ordered by the Speaker. The violence inflicted on Members of Parliament for peaceful protests to protect an incompetent and useless President defies the democratic principles and value of Parliament.


Yini ke uGerman cut.


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon House Chair, I’m rising on Rule 85. The member on the platform has just insinuated that the Speaker has instructed ... the abuse of women in the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhaliphi, you have reflected on members. We will look into that and I will come back.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: The EFF rejects this proposed budget for Parliament. I thank you.

Mr N SINGH: I think sometimes we must remember that whatever we say and do in this House, whether it was the House that burned down or this House, influences the lives of millions of people in this country. It creates social order; it influences the way they do things and not do things because we are the highest law-making institution in the land. That being the case, I think words like integrity, honesty, and free from corruption are words that we must imbibe in our own beings as we conduct ourselves in this institution.

Having said that, I am a bit concerned about the developments in the section 194 inquiry. We have come so far with it, and yet when we are about to reach the end, we find that we are hamstrung because of finances. It is the Constitutional Court that ordered us as Parliament to attend to this matter. We also must attend to another matter dealing with the Commission for Gender Equality, and it means finances again. Can we allow finances to hold us from dealing with the matter that’s going to be precedence-setting? It is the first time that this Parliament is dealing with such a matter. We should not and must not allow this matter just to come to an end. Not to say also that the issues that have been doing the rounds in the newspaper about the possible collusion or interference of certain members of this House needs to be investigated by Parliament because we cannot just sit back and allow serious allegations to go unattended. No, let us inquire. It is also in the interest of those three individuals who have been named that we have an inquiry. It is for their sake as well. We need to do that so that the integrity of this House can be always maintained. Let’s wait, let’s allow the audi alteram partem rule to apply, and let’s give everybody a chance because it is the integrity of this House that’s at stake if what they are saying is right.

As Parliament, we have been operating for so many years, and some of you who were here during my time will remember that we have the Money Bills and Related Matters Act ... that Money Bills amendment procedure. Now, that was a Bill that was introduced by Parliament, not by the Minister of Finance.
Although the Constitution required the Minister, Dr George, you’ll know that to have a mechanism that Parliament can interrogate a budget ... the Minister of Parliament didn’t do it at that time. Parliament had to introduce that Bill, but are we using what is contained in the Bill to make amendments to budgets? Are we suggesting to the executive that they should be making adjustments to the budget? We have had budget speeches over the last few weeks, and I heard in the Department of Justice today, every member decried that they are underfunded. It is within our authority to make changes.
We need to look at that legislation that we passed, that we introduced, and to look at the timelines and see how we can get that effective, because after all, we don’t represent the executive, we represent the people out there, and we must speak on behalf ... Parliament is an institution for the people and not the executive. Although most members in this Parliament may belong to the same party as the members of the executive ... I think when it comes to Parliament, the work that we must do, we must separate party and what we need to do

in the interest of good governance. That is something I am hoping we can look at in the Seventh Parliament and practice.

I also want to raise very quickly the issue of study tours. Study tours are important. It is well and good to say let’s not go to place A, but we go to B until Z because you don’t like place A. That’s well and good. Some members come and say that here. But I think when we are considering the composition of members of study groups, we must not only think that it is a study group of the majority party because there are members in committees that make very valuable inputs to legislation, regulation, and everything that we do. I find that some of those members from my party are not being included on study tours. One understands the financial obligation, but we must be fair in the way we handle that.

Lastly, the whole question of internal inquiry on the fire. I think that’s something that needs to be tabled sooner rather than later. There was an inquiry done by Parliament, and we need that inquiry to be made public ... [Time expired.] ... and not only rely on what’s happening in court on that matter. We will support the Budget Vote. Thank you.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon House Chair, all the speakers who spoke after the Speaker this afternoon reminded us and the House that we have an election next year. There is no doubt, we are in the fourth year of this term. So, it’s quite clear when you listen to all the colleagues that they have the election in mind. It is not a bad thing, that’s politics, this is what the House is about sometimes. But technically, we are supposed to speak about the institution of Parliament, that’s what it’s supposed to be. Now, if you look at Chapter 4 the Constitution and you look specifically at section 42(3), it clearly states what we are supposed to be about; we are the National Assembly, it says: “is elected to represent the people and ensure government by the people under the Constitution;” that’s what we are supposed to do.

If we sometimes forget, every member around this podium and around this House represents approximately 50 000 South Africans out there. We should never forget about that responsibility. Then the Constitution goes on in section 43 and say: “the legislative authority of the national sphere of government is vested in Parliament.” We are the highest legislative authority on the national sphere of government.
That placed a huge responsibility on Parliament as an institution.

What we have is, we bring together here people that represent the people on the one hand out there, and on the other hand, it is all about power. We must have power to do things and to act. My colleague from the EFF just mentioned all the legislation that was introduced, and I respect that.
Unfortunately, that is private legislation, you need political power to implement that and to get those things through. And that goes for all the parties, and we all understand that.
That’s why politics is about political power.

The fire that happened on 2 January in 2022 was an absolute catastrophe. We came through a very difficult period after COVID, which had a huge impact on the functioning of this institution, and at last, we got through that process, then the parliamentary buildings were destroyed in that terrible fire. I believe it was a very serious security lapse. The hon Speaker will remember many years ago when she was still the Chief Whip, I had a point which I was pushing all along, and I still feel very strongly about it; that Parliament should have its own security. Let’s call it a security force, security, or whatever we want to call it, that takes full responsibility for the precincts of Parliament. That authority should report to the executive authority of Parliament. Look at what happened that specific evening? The police were supposed to

look at the building, which is not their first priority, they are looking at the perimeter and the gates, if you all know what happened in the end. I think that should be corrected once and for all, that Parliament takes responsibility for its own territory, its own development, and its own processes here.

I want to spend one minute on section 194 inquiry, and I think it’s historic, it is the first time in the 30 years since 1994 that you are going through that process of a section 194 inquiry. And I know it’s been going on for more than six months and the colleague from the IFP mentioned the financial constraints. No, the financial thing should not be the problem of Parliament. The Constitutional Court said that the Public Protector should have legal representation, they definitely did not mean that she should have the most expensive legal representation in South Africa. That was not what was meant. I think they perhaps meant she should have good legal representation and if that’s the case, then that’s a different question altogether.

If you look at the amount of money already spent on the defence for the Public Protector, I think the time has come that somebody should give her the telephone number of the

legal aid board. I think she can do very well going there like all South Africans. She does not need what is happening now, although that’s that reality of what should happen. She won’t like that, but that is what should happen at this stage. We cannot allow Parliament to be held ransom, it will not happen. This inquiry cannot go away and with all due respect, the allegations that are being thrown around now, I personally believe that is just a further delaying tactic that we must not even deal with, and we must just conclude this process as soon as possible.

I want to conclude by saying thank you to the staff of Parliament, the new Secretary to Parliament, who has been almost a year now in the new position, Mr George, everything of the best for you in terms of trying to turn this institution around. I think we all hope that we can get to the point as soon as possible where we will once again have a functional parliamentary building and the whole precinct will be functional so that we can proceed and do what we are supposed to do.

All the staff that has made this possible under these impossible circumstances to continue with Parliament after the COVID situation, and the fire, I think we do not say thank you

enough to the parliamentary staff, all of them, and then finally, obviously the media. We don’t see them anymore, but they are following what’s happening here without them reporting on what’s happening at Parliament. South Africa will not even take notice of what we are doing. Thank you very much.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP considers this budget vote against the number of challenges. And of course, the first relates to the devastating impact of loadshedding, which it has had and continues to have on households, business, economy and of course, on our work as well, as parliamentarians. How often do we hear, we’ve got connectivity issues on the virtual platform?

So, this does bring us to the issue of oversight. Oversight as to why we are sitting with this situation? And I want to commend those committees, going all the way back to the Eskom inquiry in the previous Parliament, to Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, now to other committees that are looking and exercising due oversight as to why we are in this situation.

Chairperson, the Zondo Commission correctly found that Parliament was wanting in regard to oversight. And it is crucial that we learn from those effective committees that are exercising due oversight properly. We need these committees to have more time and us in the justice committee when we did the Thabo Bester inquiry, it was excellent ... [Interjections.]

Mr A H M PAPO: Hon House Chair, I wanted to check whether member Swart will accept the gift of the scarf? [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. Hon member, don’t do that, please ... [Interjections.]

Mr S N SWART: ... [Inaudible.] ... passion, I’m conscious, I’m fashionable and conscious. Thank you ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): ... that’s not a point of order.

Proceed, hon member!

Mr S N SWART: ... just the Thabo Bester inquiry that we had in the justice committee where each member was given an amount of time, 30 odd minutes to ask questions, follow up questions.

This, hon Speaker, is a model that we can continue with and use for effective oversight.

Hon Speaker, through you, Chair, one of the issues which the ACDP is deeply concerned about and we did address this letter to you is the far-reaching impact of proposed amendments to the International Health Regulations and the proposed pandemic treaty that is, at present, being negotiated by the executive at the World Health Organization, WHO.

We need to be aware as parliamentarians that these amendments will impact upon country’s sovereign rights to take necessary action to protect its populations against public health issues, and they would make the World Health Organization proclamations legally binding rather than just advisory as is a situation at the present.

Now, the question we ask is: What role should Parliament be playing?

Yes, we know that section 231 compels us to ratify such treaties. But when it comes to amendments to international health regulations that have already been ratified by Parliament, what role does Parliament have in exercising

oversight, which could have the result of competencies being handed over to the World Health Organization; that impact in areas such as health policy.

Lastly, Chairperson, in the limited time that I have got. We from the ACDP side would like to thank the staff, thank the Speaker and Chief Whips and everyone that has assisted us in running Parliament under very difficult conditions following the fire, following COVID-19 to try as far as possible to do our constitutional work. But there are definitely areas that can be improved upon, Speaker, but I do want to thank you, hon colleagues and the Secretary of Parliament. I thank you.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Naningamfuni ke lo ...


... Secretary to Parliament ...


... senimbulela nje.


There are many reasons our Parliament still continues to fail to hold the executive to account despite the significant strides that have been made at the beginning of this term.

Speaker, we have failed ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Bororo): Order!


... bayangxola. Hayi, ndicela ibuyiselwe kwimizuzu emithathu kuba oko bengxola. Yhini mama.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Ms M G Boroto): Umosha ixesha, qhuba.


Sorry. For instance, when it comes to the dubious sale of SA Airways, SAA, Parliament was not only side lined by the executive member responsible, they’ve also decided to play no role or very limited role to a large extent. We have called consistently for Parliament to set up an ad hoc committee to inquire into the sale of SAA so that we don’t outsource that responsibility to the Competition Commission to establish as to exactly what happened in that sale.

Because even on the matter that has to do with Eskom, we seem to be dealing with Eskom in a piecemeal fashion. One day they appear here and answer the same set of questions and give a different set of answers to them and they appear to another committee instead of having a more coordinated approach in how we hold Eskom to account and ensure that they deal with load shedding once and for all.

The ruling party Members of Parliament, MPs, unfortunately tend to recoil into their party shells when members of the executive are accused of wrongdoing. SA Airways is an example. But also, it is these same MPs who did not hesitate to use this tactic when they shut down accountability against President Ramaphosa on the Phala Phala saga.


Nimkhusele. Nithanda ningathandi, yinyaniso. Yinyaniso emsulwa.


Speaker, there is this question of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU. I cannot understand for the life of me how this Parliament plays an important role in the mediation efforts between Russia and Ukraine. And because we’re part of the IPU

Task Force, and there’s not much that we hear about, especially from our government to try and use that to explain our position on a number of matters.

The other issue here, Speaker, is that the Private Members’ Bill in particular, that process is extremely cumbersome ...


... ayincedisi ...


... a simple thing ...


... ndifuna ukwenza umzekelo ...


... we wanted to say that there is a problem where insurance providers will sell insurance policies, funeral policies in particular to the poor. They don’t do due diligence when they take you up as a client. So, you can have 50 policies with different companies that are underwritten, say by Sanlam for lack of ... just as an example. Different policies, they accept all the policies, you pay all the premiums. When it’s

time for you to claim, guess what say? No, we are only going to pay one policy. Bayeba [they steal]. That’s stealing. It’s fraud. Stealing from the poor. Because if you did not do your due diligence, it’s not the problem of the client at the end of the process. You must honour the claim. It’s a simple amendment that we can make in order to try and protect our people.

The other issue is ...


... phumani kule kona ye-ICC enempahla emdaka. Sasiyithethe kudala nayikhumshela naphinda nahamba ...


... on fancy steps.


Phumani kule ICC ileqa abantu base-Afrika nabangabantu baseMpuma inempahla emdaka, amasela.


We support you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon house Chair, the NFP will support the budget vote tabled here today.

Having said that, in this beautiful historic building our former leader, Nelson Mandela, said: We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of all Palestinians. That was the statement made here, and it is this very House, once again, made history, when it passed a motion to downgrade the South African Embassy in Israel to a liaison office.
Having best understood and lived through the atrocities of the apartheid government for decades in this country. So, indeed, I think Parliament and government as a whole must be congratulated.

Allow me also, Chairperson, to congratulate and thank all the staff, whether it’s from Legal, whether it is from Members’ Facility, from the Office of the Speaker, the Protection Services, all of them in the way they conduct themselves in the hospitable manner in which they approach you. And I wish and hope that all government institutions, including local governments, can adopt that attitude of what we have of our staff in this particular precinct of Parliament.

I want to raise a few concerns. One is, hon Speaker, the issue of smaller parties. It took me eight years to get a motion here because of the limited opportunities and I do know there has been some ... and succeeded ... yes, thank you, Deputy Speaker. Eight years, it’s because of smaller parties being given limited opportunities. We also have a constituency base, who we represent. And I know that some attempts have been made. We have more mini-plenaries now, but there needs to be a faster turnaround time so that we can get more opportunities to be able to deal with that.

Even our representation in the Whips Committees, it also needs to be dealt with, but I think there are many other issues that we’ve picked up over the period of time.

But what I have found, that this House, which has a specific purpose, it’s not fulfilling its mandate. All we do in this House we attack each other, we insult each other and
62 million people is South Africa who are asking us for solutions to create a better life, all they hear in this House is one attacking the other, one insulting the other, finding fault and yet every one of them wherever they govern have got corruption, have got looting, have got maladministration.

Let us not argue because I’ll tell you right now what the call I got this morning, hon Speaker. Babies are dying. Babies are dying in Tygerberg Hospital. When it starts loadshedding nurses have to run with the babies from incubator down the floors to try and protect those children; children are dying. This is how bad the situation is.

Look at the crime statistics this morning, it will tell you that all provinces have got problems, all challenges [Time expired.] the NFP supports this budget vote. Thank you.

Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon House Chair ...


 ... mhlawumbe asiqale ngalokhu nje singakayi kude singakabingeleli, anisobe.


 ... fellow South Africans, Hon Speaker and Deputy Speaker, Secretary to Parliament and his team, Hon members and fellow South Africans ...


 ... siyabingelela ngenkulu intobeko le. Sizizwa sithobekile. Siphakama lapha ngokuzoseka siphakamisa ukuthi u-Vote 2 wasePhalamende mawunywe yile Ndlu. Siyafisa la ukuba sithi, le nkulumo yokuthi amasela ...


... back to the sender ...


... indlela yaziwa umhambi wayo.


Some of us in this House tend to forget that there is a term that is called majoritarian democracy and wants us to shy away from that. It'll never happen in our lifetime. People have voted for us and we respect that. Our duty as public representatives in ensuring an activist Parliament that places the interests of the people in the centre.

For this to be realised, all South Africans need to have the consciousness and appreciation for our democracy to succeed. Every South African has a responsibility to be involved in the democratic processes. We need to strengthen civic education

and public education in the parliamentary system to ensure that this Parliament becomes a true tribute to our people.

The mandate of this Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament is to maintain oversight of the financial management of Parliament, considering instructions issued by the executive authority, and consider the annual report table and referred to by the Hon Speaker to the committee. The committee has considered the annual performance plan, APP, and the Budget Vote of Parliament, the budget allocated responds to the urgent task for Parliament. The Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament is also responsible for performing any other function specified in the Financial Management of Parliament and Provisional Legislatures Act 10 of 2009 or by the Rules of Parliament. As part of strengthening planning, reporting a focus on improving outcomes of Parliament, as a committee, we have noted that Parliament does not yet have a guideline to inform the drafting of its plans, compliance with the Financial Management of Parliament and Provisional Legislatures Act requires the inclusion of objectives and outcomes for each programme, and it must be measurable.

To achieve or to have the desired impact, it is critical to identify outcomes to be pursued over the period of the strategic plan in question. The committee recognises that the institution has not yet addressed longstanding concerns and challenges in terms of measuring performance. We welcome the reorientation towards outcomes and impact which will be factored in the strategic plan moving forward, and annual planning in the Sixth Parliament. This is a critical milestone advanced by this committee. A matter we have raised concern on are the facilities for members which the Hon Speaker spoke to and adequate support from residential and parliamentary facilities are critical to ensure members function without interruptions.

Having a hybrid system with virtual platforms requires that all members have sufficient connectivity support in circumstances where sites are inadequate for proceedings that have been okayed.

Parliament has other critical bodies such as the Office on Institution Supporting Democracy, Parliamentary Budget Office, Treasury Advisory Office and Legislative Sector Support which report directly to the executive authority. It is the view of the committee that such offices should have clearly defined

outcomes which should be monitored by the Joint Standing Committee on the Financial Management of Parliament.

Recognising the strategic role of these bodies and their functions of Parliament, it has to find a way in the Seventh Parliament proper and a clinical way for it to report directly to Parliament. Notwithstanding that, they do have that legal passage or a straight line to the Office of the Speaker.

We have recommended that Parliament present reports from these offices to the committee for oversight and to make strategic inputs to enhance their functioning and impact. The committee recommends that Parliament develops performance indicators measuring the delivery of these services. For sustainability and accountability, senior management plays a critical role and will welcome the appointment of the chief financial officer, CFO, which also the Hon Speaker spoke about. The critical task of the CFO should be the prudent management of the finances and developing proposals on the funding of Parliament to ensure that the institution is adequately resourced to optimally execute its mandate. The committee is pleased that engagements between the National Treasury and the executive authority to address Parliament's budget allocation have commenced and appear to be bearing fruit.

The committee further recommended that the institution develop its budget processes before the consideration of the 2024-25 draft annual performance plan and budgeting. The budget process would assist as far as ensuring that Parliament is able to support and urge for the granting of the institution's funding request. The committee will receive an update on progress from time to time which will be made in this regard as well as on efforts underway to resolve the parliamentary Parmed liability. We also welcome the efforts of resolving various matters related to Parmed to ensure that members have affordable medical coverage which responds to their needs.
Ongoing engagement with Parmed or on Parmed should be exacerbated to have a sustainable, equitable intervention and tangible intervention.

The committee remains concerned that Parliament must, like a national department, apply to National Treasury for their share of the national budget. Parliament is a separate arm of the state and cannot be expected to subject itself to National Treasury for its budget allocation. This reliance has the potential to weaken Parliament's ability to perform oversight over the executive. The committee supports all efforts to increase public participation in Parliament's activities, ensuring that more people have access to information about

Parliament through television, radio and social media will contribute greatly to us that goal.

Digitisation has created several opportunities and this should be leveraged to take Parliament to the people and enable easy access to parliamentary processes to optimise public participation. Central to the effectiveness of Parliament is the participation of the public. The more the public participates, the quality and outcome of Parliament are enhanced and the representation of the will of the people is also realised, ours is to be pupil-centred at all material times as Parliament. To strengthen financial management, Parliament has to have various regulations to give effect to the Financial Management of Parliament and Provisional Legislatures Act.

We have noted that the regulations referred to under Chapter 9 of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provisional Legislatures Act have still not been developed which is a pending matter that the Seventh Parliament need to be seized with, which will form part of our Legacy Report. These regulations would go a long way to standardisation and among others the institution’s planning and budget processes.
Parliament needs to develop and finalise the regulations as a

matter of urgency and before the end of the 2023-2024 financial year, we have recommended that the committee should be provided with adequate and quarterly updates on progress made thus far.

The committee recommits that every avenue be pursued to ensure that the vast majority of citizens are able to access information about Parliament, committees, meetings and plenaries. Parliamentary meetings should not be aired on pay- to-view channels but should be broadcast on SABC’s free-to- view platform or on the special channel to which the institution is seeking licensing. We have recommended that the committee should receive quarterly progress reports on interventions ... the Parliamentary Communication Services is working on. As we move towards the end of the Sixth Parliament, there is an important task which needs to be finalised by the various portfolio committees in the Legacy Report. Legacy Reports are critical institutional documents which enable continuity in the work of Parliament. We support Vote 2 of Parliament. Thank you very much.

Mr M NYHONTSO: Hon Chair, positive developments have happened in the past to demonstrate for all to see, that Parliament is no longer a useful tool for the Ruling Party majority to play

with, as its soft play to shape or destroy as they see fit. The progressive opposition parties made a checkmate and pushed the Ruling Party against the wall when they protected their king being exposed naked like the character in a story called, Emperor without clothes.

Parliament Phala Phala, Parliament serves a purpose, it calls to question the possible wrongs, misjudgements, misrepresentation, shenanigans and whatever undue deviations that the Executive and the government authorities make. The Parliament sets its democratic checks and balances that the Constitution provides, and it is a powerful voice that equals and sometimes supersedes the Chapter Nine institutions.

In Parliament, our understanding is that the national interests come first. The apartheid state had an abusive Parliament. The National Party used their parliamentary majority to extend their powers on parliamentary grounds to arbitrary keep Robert Mangaliso Sobukhwe on the Pan-Africanist Congress, PAC, of the PAC to solitary confinement and detention without trial for six long years. The PAC is not willing to participate in a length just Parliament without ensuring that it is turning to an effective political tool.

We therefore set to increase our party influence in Parliament and make it a tool for transformation and social justice.
Watch the space, hon Gungubele. In anyway, we will support this Budget Vote because this Parliament does not belong to the ANC, it belongs to the people.

Mr C T FROLICK: Hon House Chairperson, Madam Speaker, Deputy Speaker, colleagues and also the staff who are in attendance, as well as the members of the public. This budget indeed comes at a very difficult time for all South Africans, and in such time, we must draw inspiration from our distinguished leaders who have come before us. Earlier this year in January, we mourn the passing of the Speaker of the first democratic Parliament, Dr Frene Ginwala.

The month of April also marks the 30-year anniversary of the death of Comrade Chris Hani, May their Souls Rest in Peace. It was their insight and leadership which laid the foundation for our democracy. Hon members, it is also with sadness that Parliament was informed of the untimely passing of Mr Franklin Edwards, who was employed as a Chamber Assistant here in the National Assembly. Mr Edwards started working in Parliament on
3 May 1994, and we send our condolences to the family and friend on his untimely passing last Friday.

At the start of the Sixth Parliament as the Speaker has correctly reflected, a list of strategic priorities were identified. Amongst these are, strengthening oversight and accountability, enhancing public involvement and strengthening the legislative capacity. These priorities arose from our analysis of our challenges before us, systemic unemployment, poverty, inequality and crime. We could not, of course, plan for the subsequent crisis that occurred in terms of the COVID-
19 pandemic that occurred and the destruction of the National Assembly Chamber.

More recently, the domestic and global development had added new hardships, inferior growth and led to the high cost of living. As the Parliament, we had to collectively confront these trials with determination. In the midst of our misfortune, we must acknowledge our achievements as well. Over the course of our last financial year and more recently, we’ve passed a number of important Bills. Amongst these are the Electoral Amendment Bill, which will allow the independent candidates to stand for public office.

The Employment Equity Amendment Bill, the Constitution 18nth Amendment Bill, which has elevated sign language to one of the official languages. Over the last month, the portfolio

committees have been busy in debating the 2023-24 departmental budgets. Consideration of the budgets is, of course, an onerous task, but it is essential that policies and plans are carefully scrutinised, given the current economic and financial environment. In addition, we have also been occupied with other Bills intended to support the economy, such as the Eskom Debt Relief Bill.

The Climate Change Bill was introduced to support the development of an effective climate change response, and a transition to a low carbon and climate resilient economy. To complement economic reform, the Parliament must continue to prioritise social services, and the National Health Insurance Bill is such an intervention, as well as the proposed legislative reforms to an education system, which is the other one. Together with lawmaking, Parliament has been conducting oversight and monitoring service delivery, but we need to improve.

Last year, the President tabled the report on state capture. This report noted certain deficiencies in parliamentary oversight and proposed measures to address these. Some measures concern the rules of the House. The Rules Committee has made headway and is seised with these matters. The various

portfolio committees have also been seised with specific issues that fall under their mandate. The programming committee will receive quarterly reports on progress that has been made.

Hon members, oversight is, over and above, political agendas and institutional function. The build on our successes and facilitate continuity, the committee should begin collating information for the legacy reports for the incoming Parliament. Let me use this occasion to once again restate my gratitude to the committee Chairpersons and all the committee staff for their timeless focus amid all that has transpired. The Parliament supports and is also supported by a number of the independent public institutions.

These entities provide invaluable information to members from the researched report to orders. In this regard, the Assembly considers candidates for appointment to these institutions, and we will soon, based on the best practices proceed with the process to appoint a new Public Protector. Hon members, earlier this morning the Constitutional Court handed down judgement in an application brought by certain individuals as well as organisations and communities they represent.

The applicants applied directly to the Constitutional Court for an order declaring the National Assembly, the National of Provinces and the nine provincial legislatures as having failed to fulfil their constitutional obligations to facilitate reasonable public involvement in the passing of Traditional and Khoi-San Leadership Act 3 of 2019. In the judgement it is stated that:

Although Parliament has a discretion to prepare the manner in which to fulfil its obligation and facilitate public participation, the process followed must be reasonable, and on the assessment of the public participation, the processes followed by Parliament, the court held that Parliament and the Provincial Legislatures, all nine of them, overwhelmingly failed to fulfil its Constitutional obligation to facilitate a reasonable public participation process.

At both the National Assembly and the provincial legislature levels, certain deficiencies in the hearings were identified that they are endemic, as the court states. Amongst these, are insufficient notices given for public hearings, failure to conduct pre-hearing education, some hearings were inaccessible, limited transport provided, and so forth. In

other instances, the court notes that in certain meetings, the attendees were silenced arbitrarily.

What do we do with these, how do we respond to these? The court has given us 24 months in an opportunity to re-enact the legislation in a manner that is consistent with the Constitution, or to pass the statue in a manner that is consistent with the Constitution. Hon member, hon Speaker and Deputy Speaker, I’m aware that the committee spends a lot of time conducting public participation processes, and it has got into the situation where that’s almost become standard, without analysing the complexity of the legislation.

We go to all nine provinces, three districts, and it takes time to do the work. You are aware because you are involved in these processes on the amount of time over weekends and during the week that it takes, as well as the cost implications of this. Just last week, we were informed by the committee section also about the challenges that the staff experiences when the public participation processes are concluded.
However, we need to rectify this. It doesn’t mean, just because we go to the nine provinces and three districts, and we are focusing on quantity and compromise on the quality of the public participation processes.

As a result, we are reviewing the processes for public participation, and as an intro-measure, I am meeting with hon Nyambi and the chairpersons of committees, so that we have a better understanding on the analysis of work that has been done before the public participation and the public hearing, specifically, take place. In one instance, hon members, we have spent about R10 million to process one Bill. It was not contested in any of the provinces.

This points to us, as to how did the Constitutional Court arrive at this decision. Is there something wrong with our record-keeping? I’m informed by legal services that very often when we need to respond in a replying affidavit, we don’t get the information out of our committee system, our archives are flawed. It doesn’t mean that the work has not been done. It also points out to the time of filling the vacancies and critical staff, and we must improve in terms of our quality of the work that we produce.

Hon members, in this interest of time, the committees and the certain refinements approach that we are going to put in operation, and the Speaker referred to the Oversight Priority Model and Plan, where we will pursue new annual performance targets. Hon members, later this year, South Africa will host

Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, BRICS, Parliamentary Forum, and it is important for the forum that was founded on the principles of promoting working relations amongst the BRICS nations, and to share information, pursue matters of common interest that will take place, and to meet with our colleagues.

There is just one or two issues that I need to respond to that was raised, and the one is study thoughts. We have heard what the Constitutional Court said, hon members. The Constitutional Court will not rule on our study thoughts, it will rule on our constitutional mandate, which is law making. Now, study thoughts are important, and I can tell you at any given time that there is a stack of applications in front of the Speaker, and all the political parties wants to be part of study thoughts. So, the suspension of study thoughts, I don’t know how that is going to happen and the Whips are going to explain to their own members that they will no longer go in.

Lastly, on the section 194 of inquiry, of course, the budgets cannot allow to collapse the process. We also have to deal with the parameters in future, of how these inquiries takes place. Then the topic of the issue in the media, the Speaker has responded to the Public Protector. If there is any

wrongdoing that has taken place, the case has been opened with the police wo will investigate. In the meantime, if anyone is aggrieved, they must forward their complains to the Committee on Ethics and Members Interests. Thank you very much. ...
[Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Dr A T LOTRIET: House Chairperson, “Why do we have a Parliament?” “What do they do in Parliament?” “Parliament is embarrassing”; “Parliament is of no use”. House Chairperson, if you read the newspapers, or listen to radio programmes, these are some of the milder comments the public makes about Parliament. We have to ask ourselves why, and whether there’s any substance.

Well, let’s look at legislation. This is one of the critical functions of Parliament. The people we are supposed to serve and represent in Parliament depend on us to pass relevant, meaningful and above all constitutionally compliant legislation.

Legislation that will improve their lives and livelihood of people. The reality, however, is that we don’t. In reality is that in this Parliament is not seized with the processing and passing of bills at the level it should be.

In 2022 there were at least 10 bills that lapsed as it was not processed. How is it possible if there is ample time to schedule it that this happens. Parliament would rather spend its time having debates on topics that do not have a direct effect on improving the lives of the people of our country.

But bills are rammed through for political expedience, where it suits the governing party, but important legislation such as many of the private members bills introduced by the opposition, are left to lapse. This is not what a Parliament that cares for the people does. This Parliament rather passes bills such as the Eskom Debt Relief Bill that the country can ill afford. The economic future and wellbeing of the country is clearly the last priority.

Another example is the instances where Parliament has to process and pass bills as a consequence of constitutional court rulings such as the Electoral Amendment Bill, now an Act. Why did this have to be rushed through? Why have extension have to be asked. The answer is that the Minister and the department sat on this instruction for more than a year and Parliament was absent in its oversight and holding the Minister and his department to account. Yes, we’ve passed the Constitution Eighteenth Amendment Bill, about sign

language, but took more than a decade for it to reach that point that is unacceptable.

Let’s look at one of the tools that Parliament has to hold the executive to account - questions. Parliament’s own report indicates that in 2022-2023, 4224 questions were submitted by members of this Parliament, majority from the DA, of which 2299 were answered by the executive. That is a paltry 54% where the Ministers made an actual effort to answer. And I say an effort, because of these answers, both written and oral, are nothing more than non-answers. It’s almost as if the executive wants to swat an irritating fly away. I honestly hope the leader of government business who isn’t hear, takes note. Answering to Parliament is not about ticking the boxes, it is about being accountable to the people of the country, the people who depend on all of us.

Let’s look at why Parliament is seen as embarrassing. We need to look no further than the week before last. How is it possible that the kind of language used in the Defence Budget debate can be condoned by a Chairperson of this Parliament? Is this really the best this Parliament can offer?

Let’s look at the debates we have in Parliament and the debates that get priority. Instead of focussing on what is urgent and necessary, we spend hours on debating issues that will not make one iota of difference in people’s lives. We shy away from what should be front and centre on Parliament’s agenda. Instead of debating the desperate economic situation in the country that will only get worse as a result of our international stance and the real possibility of African Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA, not being renewed, we have debates on any possible national or international day.

Let’s look at public participation. Indeed, Parliament conducts a number of oversights, but the question is, what then? Do any of these reports lead to any visible or tangible results? The same with petitions, it takes up to three years for petitions to reach a committee. What ... [Inaudible.] ... to the public?

And then we have the public hearings that was referred to and it also includes written submissions - the sad reality is that in this Parliament it is nothing more than going through the motions and if we have no effect on the predetermined outcome. Because thousands upon thousands of these submissions are just ignored.

We have seen this with the section 25 instance, with the Appropriation Bill and we are going to it with Bela Bill. But this can and will be changed. There will draw a line under this Parliament. It will become Parliament for the people when the electorate vote for the DA. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members, let’s allow the hon member to proceed with the speech.

Mr B A RADEBE: House Chairperson, hon Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the House, the Minister and Deputy Ministers present in this House, and the members of this august House, good afternoon. What is very important about this budget is that this budget comes during the Africa month. The African month which is marked by the formation of the Organisation of African Unity, of which was formed so that it could ensure that the colonialism throughout the entire continent in apartheid, was defeated.

So, what is very important here is that as we debate this budget of Parliament, we must know that this Parliament is also a product of the international solidarity. So, what is very important about this Budget Vote is that we must ensure that we teach Parliament in such a way that it takes a stand

among the other parliaments of the world. That is why the work which is done by the Speaker in the Inter-Parliamentary Union IPU, is highly appreciated. When you look at the work which is done by the Speaker in trying to bring reconciliation between Russia and Ukraine, she is doing that because she is from the organisation which made a clarion call that there shall be peace in Africa and the world.

So, that work was championed by the gallon son of Africa, which is President Oliver Tambo, who ensured that even during the height of the cold war, he ensured that the ruling party was able to have offices both in East and Western capitals of the world. So that there was no way in which the ANC could be made a satellite organisation of any other country in the world. That is why, as the Speaker of this Parliament, she has the duty to ensure that this Parliament of South Africa, does not become a satellite Parliament of the Western interest. How must that be done? It means that when we engage with America, when we engage with the West, when we engage with the ... we must engage as equal partners because South Africa is a sovereign state which has an independent foreign policy which must be respected by all and sundry.

What is critical here hon Speaker - what you are doing - is making President Oliver Tambo very proud wherever he is. What is also very important about the independent foreign policy of this country, I recall what President Mandela did in 1997, when one hyper power decided to tell South Africa not to go and visit brother Gaddafi in Libya. President Mandela said it in front of Clinton that South Africa is a sovereign country. It’s got an independent foreign policy. So, there is no way in which a self-appointed well policeman will tell South Africa what it must do.

So, what we must do as this Parliament, we must ensure that the spirit and the efforts of President Mandela and Tambo are maintained within the institution, because if we don’t do that, we would have sold their legacy. We would have sold the history which this country was based upon. So that’s why I say that as we move forward, we are not a satellite state of any country.

What is very important here is that there is going to be a BRICS forum meeting which is going to come around September- October, where the parliamentarians of the BRICS countries are going to come and sit together here. But what I am appealing for, hon Speaker, is that let’s have the public participate in

the process. So that the public can know - because what we have now is a lot of non-governmental organisations which we don’t know where they are even funded - which actually want to dictate the narrative of what is happening in South Africa.
So, what I am saying is that this Parliament, as a tribal of the people, must open up and ensure that the people and the relevant stakeholders in South Africa come and discuss the issue of the ... [Inaudible.] ... of BRICS.

But what is also important, as I said before, South African is not a satellite state. What is very important here is that we also cannot shy away that this Parliament can also engage with the Congress of the United States of America. Because what is happening is that the issue of African Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA, is very important for the economy of this country.

So, what we must do. We must engage, but they cannot tell us who must be our friend, who must not be our friends. They must not. We can ... We are not schoolboys and children here. We are an independent state. We are going to assert our authority as Mandela said, because what is very important here is that we fought very hard for this country to be free. The lives were lost. The countries sacrificed in the African continent for us to be here. So, we cannot sell this country to the

highest bidder, which is out there. So, what you must do is that we are going to ensure that ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!Order!

Mr B A RADEBE: ... there shall be peace in Africa. There shall be peace in the world. That is what the ANC is going to pursue. That is what this Parliament must pursue. Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Allow the Speaker to conclude the debate.

The SPEAKER: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members. I want to thank all members, without exception, who have participated in this debate. Firstly, let me clarify something. Because I heard you, hon remember, you kept on saying we must be non- aligned. Just in case you don’t know, South Africa belongs to the Non-Aligned Movement Network of the world ... [Interjections.] ... It does not only ... [Interjections.] ...


... hhayi, thula!


.... not only does it do that, not only that. At the level of government represented by the heads of state and members of Cabinet. At the level of Parliament, Parliament is also part of the Non-Aligned Movement Parliamentary Network.

If you could just listen, you will also know ... [Interjections.] ... No, you’re not listening. You will also know that we participate in the Inter-Parliamentary Union Task Force, IPU-TF.

And if you read the report of the IPU-TF, you will see that there is nothing biased from the side of the IPU-TF, including South Africa. If anything, we as much as possible have tried to use our influence, as members of the IPU-TF on some of the developments which are there right now. If anything, the IPU- TF will play a very positive role in supporting the heads of state of the continent as they move forward to mediate between Russia and Ukraine. That one we must say. We stand for peace.

South Africa stands for peace. And it is for that reason that we as South Africans have always been part of mediation efforts, and have always been in peacekeeping missions. It is

because we believe that where there is peace, there is development and there is prosperity.

Our foreign policy objective is informed by that matter, which is that South Africa has experienced a conflict. We have seen it, we know how it feels, and therefore it is important that where there is a conflict, we should mediate. So, our President forms part of the team of the African Union, AU, to go and meditate, and they must continue, we will give them all the support. Just to say that, hon member.

Hon member, I just want to go into somebody - I think the hon members from the DA - started comparing the issue of Nkandla and Phala-Phala. Let me just remind you. Let me just remind you, hon member, that precisely because of the Nkandla issue, members here in Parliament came out with a rule, a rule which allowed for your member, Mazzone, to move a substantive motion on the issue of Phala-Phala. And following that, the Speaker then appointed an independent panel as outlined in the rules of Parliament. And having done that... That was an independent panel, and that independent panel was headed by a former Chief Justice. It came out with a report and that report was tabled before this House. That the report was voted against by some of the members has nothing to do with the role played by the

Office of the Speaker and the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa.

We did our job. We followed the rules to the end hon members. That members did not exercise their rights in a manner that would suit all of us, is another matter. So I refuse - I refuse. When you say ... [Interjections.] ... Huh-uh! You must stop this, Hon Chairperson, protect me from this moment.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Speaker, I didn’t hear what he said, but proceed. Order, hon members. I’m adding the minutes. Order! Order!

The SPEAKER: ... So hon members ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Macgluwa! No, no, no. Stop.

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Hon member from the EFF, you have raised the issue of Private Members’ Bills. If I may say hon Mkhaliphi, the truth of the matter is that parties are allowed to pilot private members’ legislation. It has happened
- it has been done. That at times it takes a long, really is a matter which has to do with the functioning of committees. Not

that people are prevented from piloting these pieces of legislation and from passing them.

For the record, I also want to say this, hon members, give me this opportunity. Hon members, I have accepted that whenever you take the floor, you will say the Speaker abuses women, the Speaker has sent the Parliamentary Protection Service to group women. And I want to say this for the record, the truth is, you know, it is not true. You know, it is not true, but you continue with this agenda that I unleash the Parliamentary Protection Service on women. It is incorrect! If anything, hon member, I feel that it is unfair for a woman to make that kind of allegation against another woman. It’s not true, mam.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!

The SPEAKER: And then, on the matter of the international trips, hon member from the EFF. I have received your letter and I have responded to your letters yes, I will proceed with hon members as was agreed in the rules committee based on the budget committee’s options which are there with regard to the matter of oversight over the Presidency. That the rules committee will go and visit the United Kingdom, UK, to study

how that small committee deals with issues. That’s what we are going to do.

The fact that this time, you have no one who will join the group of the rules committee – suddenly you say let us do away with these trips. Only because somebody is busy now and they have made it clear that I am leading the process of the manifesto, it does not mean that the rest of the parties should not run the business of the Parliament. We will continue.

Hon members, both from the EFF and IFP have raised the matter of the investigation into the fire in Parliament. Hon members, you will know that we have come here, you are aware now from the Chief Whip’s Forum that that investigation was conducted. In fact, we now have a report and it is a matter of the Office, of the Secretary to Parliament, StP, together with the management to come forward to say, this is the action that we must take. Hon members, the report is ready. We have seen the report. I have seen the report. And that report ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, it will be tabled to you. It is not like there is nothing being done.

About language services, as far as I’m concerned, all official languages are represented. We do have the interpretation for all the official languages required by hon members. Whether we outsource or not, what is important is that we should be able to communicate with members. We should be able to communicate with South Africans about what members are debating in Parliament.

Hon members, the issue of ... [Interjections.] ... no, it’s not time at all. There is a matter raised by a member of the ACDP. Hon Swart, you have raised that matter which relates to the impact of some of the amendments which are being affected through this health regulation. Just to say that you have written me a letter, I have responded to you, to put the position of Parliament on that matter, and I would hope that if there’s a need for us to engage further on the matter, let’s do that.

Hon members, there is a matter of section 194. It is really not our problem. If anything, I am mad at the committee that the committee is not completing its business. I have written a letter to Hon Frolick who is Chair of Committees to say that, because there are all these issues which are coming up with regards to the funding and so on. At that point, I wrote to

him and I said, the committee must present a preliminary report to the House so that the House can take this process forward with a debate. It is not a conclusion of the matter, but we said a preliminary report so that we get a sense of what this committee is doing. Sitting here or standing here, I am aware that Hon Frolick has written a letter to the chairperson of that committee. So we are waiting for the chair of the committee to indicate to us what we should do.

Not only that, hon members, the R4 million which was added... By the way, I think that we should take lessons from what has happened in the Committee for Section 194 Enquiry. When we take a decision to conduct an inquiry, we should first agree on what the costs should be. Secondly, on the timeframes for that inquiry. Because truly speaking, it is a fact that the costs of the Committee for Section 194 Enquiry have seriously escalated.

So what we do have now - hon Dyantyi is aware and the members of the committee - it has now been agreed that there is only R4 million to finalize everything. This committee should have reported end of April and then it changed things. They moved to the end of May. We are now at the end of May and that work

has not been finalized. So I’m just saying it is now for the committee, hon members to push that.

The last matter I would like to respond to. I want to thank you, Hon Mulder, for some of your comments. It is important that in our debates, as much as we disagree, we sometimes agree to disagree, but it is also important to note the experience of some members who are in this House. I have listened to you attentively. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon members, that concludes the debate. Before we proceed, I would like to say that the Speaker brought to my attention that this week is Child Protection Week, and unfortunately, we woke up to the news that five children from Mitchells Plain were killed in a car accident, in a scholar transport. We would like to express our condolences to the families, the schools, and the friends of the children. I hope we all agree with that. No, not now. Thank you.

Hon members, we will proceed. We will now deal with orders two to 42 together, as they are on the Order Paper. Hon members, these are Committee Reports on Budget Votes. As has been the practice. There will be no declaration of vote on these

reports, but I will allow the parties to express their objections to certain reports if they wish to do so. This is standard practice, hon members. It is nothing new. We always do it that way. But before we move to this procedure, may I acknowledge the Chief Whip of the Majority Party?















































There was no debate.


Chairperson, I move that the reports be adopted, except for recommendation 6.1 contained in the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Tourism on Budget Vote 38: Tourism, which is referred to the Standing Committee on Appropriations for further consideration and report.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, lets understand one another. The motion is that the reports be adopted, except for recommendation 6.1 contained on the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Tourism, which is referred to the Standing Committee on Appropriation. Right, now we start. Are there any objections? The DA?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Please notes the objections of the DA, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. All of them? You didn’t say.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, House Chair. I wasn’t quite clear how you are going to do it because we have got objections on particular reports. But not on all of them.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): I said objections to specific reports.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITE: Must I list all of them? To which way I objected?

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): You just state the order as it appears on this paper, ma.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITE: Alright. So, our objections, House Chair, are Budget Vote 10, Budget Vote 39, Trade and Industry, Budget Vote 30: Communications, Budget Vote 41: Water and Sanitation, Budget Vote 33: Human Settlements, Budget Vote 4: Government Communications, Budget Vote 6: International Relations, Budget Vote 34: Mineral Resources, Budget Vote 11: Public Service and Administration, Budget Vote 7: National School of Government, Budget Vote 12: Public Service Commission, Budget Vote 40: Transport, Budget Vote 37: Sports and Culture, Budget Vote 31: Employment and Labour, Budget Vote 8: National Treasury. And lastly, Budget Vote – it does not say here. Is the Budget Vote on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs? Thank you.


Mr W W WESSELS Chairperson?


Mr W W WESSELS: My apology.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI Chair, you call me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, it seems as if is a clarity. Can you take your seat? You want clarity, hon Wessels?

Mr W W WESSELS: Yes. Hon Chairperson, you put the question of Order 2 to 42. The Chief Whip of the Opposition has now objected to Budget Votes that is all across on Order 47 and
44. I think we should maintain order and I am not sure why we battled with this each year. I really don’t understand that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. That’s how I was asked to do it. But I didn’t hear that she went beyond 42. I am sorry for that.

Mr W W WESSELS: Sorry House hair, if I may just assess, the difference is that, the Order and the Budget Vote number differs. The Chief Whip of the Official Opposition put the Budget Vote number and not the Order number. We are in different section where we are.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I hear you. Okay. Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, if you want to correct is

fine but I am sure the Table will be able to reconsole. Is fine? [Interjections.] Okay. Hon Mkhalipi?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, Chair, even me I was so confused after the Chief Whip of the DA. So, I wanted you to clarify the process now because when I listened to the Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC she was not saying the same thing that the DA Chief Whip was saying. So, as the Chair please take us through before we commit mistakes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, the issue is that we are do it on vote number. We put it as on the Order Paper - Vote 2 to 42. That’s the only thing that must happen here, yes.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Please, note the objection of the EFF.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto}: On all? [Interjections.] Thank you.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: House Chair, please note the objection of the IFP on Order No. 4: Vote 10: Public Enterprises.

Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, please note the objection of the FF Plus to Orders 4, 25, 26 and 37. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, with your leave I would like to read and I will give the numbers later if I may. The ACDP object to Small Business, Public Works and Infrastructure, Transport, Trade and Industry, Mineral Resources and Energy and Public Enterprises. I will submit the item numbers to the NA Table. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESRSON (Ms M G Boroto}: That’s allowed, fine. Hon members, all those objections to the specific Orders are noted and the Order as requested is agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Report on Budget Vote 36: Small Business Development for 2023/24 financial year accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting). Report on Budget Vote 38: Tourism accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget vote 10: Public Enterprises, and on Strategic Plan and Annual Performance Plan for 2023/24 of Department of

Public Enterprises accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 annual performance plans and budget of Department of Higher Education and Training and entities, Vote
17 accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 35: Science and Innovation (2023/24) accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 26: Department of Military Veterans accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 23: Department of Defence accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 8: National Treasury (State Security) accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget for Defence Intelligence accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget for South African Police Service - Crime Intelligence accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 Budget, Annual Performance Plan and 2020- 2025 Strategic Plan of Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 Budget Vote 24 and Annual Performance Plan of Independent Police Investigative Directorate accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 Budget Vote 21 and Annual Performance Plan of Civilian Secretariat for Police Service accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 Budget Vote 28 and Annual Performance Plan of Department of Police (South African Police Service) accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan (Budget Vote 20) of Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities for

financial year 20223/24 accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters).

Report on Budget Vote 22 and Annual Performance Plan: Correctional Services for 2023/24 accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 39: Trade, Industry and Competition accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 19, the annual performance plans of Department of Social Development and entities for 2023/24 accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 30: Communications and Digital Technologies accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 41, annual performance plans of Department of Water and Sanitation and entities for 2023/24 financial year accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 33: Human Settlements, revised Strategic Plan for coming Medium Term Expenditure Framework period and Annual Performance Plan 2023-24 accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 4: Government Communication and Information System and Media Development and Diversity Agency accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 6: International Relations and Cooperation accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan for 2023/24 of Office of the Chief Justice and Budget Vote 27: Office of the Chief Justice accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 Annual Performance Plan and Budget of Department of Mineral Resources and Energy (Vote 34) and entities accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance, Economic

Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plans 2023/24 and Budget Vote 11 of Department of Public Service and Administration accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan 2023/24 and Budget Vote 7 of National School of Government accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan 2023/24 and Budget Vote 9 of Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan 2023/24 and Budget Vote 12 of Public Service Commission accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Annual Performance Plan 2023/24 and Budget Vote 14 of Statistics South Africa accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 annual performance plans and budget of Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and entities: Vote 29 accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Strategic Plan 2019/20—2023/24, annual performance plans 2023/24 and Budget Vote 32 of Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 37: Department of Sport, Arts and Culture accordingly adopted (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 18: Health, Annual Performance Plan of Department of Health and entities accordingly approved (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 40: Transport and strategic plan and annual performance plan 2023-24 of Department of Transport accordingly adopted (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 5 and annual performance plans of Department of Home Affairs and entities accordingly adopted (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 16: Basic Education accordingly adopted (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 31: Employment and Labour, strategic plans of Department and entities 2020/21 – 2024/25 and annual performance plan of Department and entities 2023/2 accordingly adopted (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 8: National Treasury accordingly adopted (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on 2023/24 annual performance plans, strategic plans and budgets of Departments of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and entities accordingly adopted (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on Budget Vote 13: Public Works and Infrastructure accordingly adopted (Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Num G J SKOSANA: Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, mhlonitjhwa Somlomo, malunga ahloniphekileko, sizwe sekhethu, lotjhani.


We hereby table the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the determination of remuneration of members of the Financial and Fiscal Commission dated 17 May 2023.


Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ...


... a letter dated 10 June 2022 was received from the President of the Republic requesting the National Assembly to consider the draft notice of his determination of the salaries

and allowances of members of the of the Financial and Fiscal Commission, amongst others. The draft determination is made in terms of Section 9(1) of the Financial and Fiscal Commission Act 99 of 1997 as amended by the Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Act 4 of 2015 in terms of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act
92 of 1997, as amended by the Determination of Remuneration of Office Bearers of Independent Constitutional Institutions Laws Amendment Act 22 of 2014.

On 13 June 2022, the part of the draft notice from the President on the determination of the salaries and allowances of members of the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, was referred to the Standing Committee on Finance for consideration and report.


Malunga ahloniphekileko ...


... section 9(1) of the FFC Act provides that members of the FFC are entitled to such remuneration, allowances and other benefits as determined by the President, taking into consideration the recommendations from the Independent

Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers. The determination by the President must be approved by the National Assembly. Furthermore, the Commission must consult with the Minister of Finance when investigating or considering the remuneration, allowances and other benefits of members of the FFC.

Section 8(6)(b) of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act requires that the commission take the following factors into account when making recommendations, as it did in the report. Firstly, salaries, allowances and benefits of members of other constitutional institutions. Secondly, affordability in relation to the responsibilities of the constitutional institution concerned and lastly, the level of expertise and experience required of a member of the constitutional institution concern.


Sizwe sakwethu ...


... coming to the commission’s recommendation. As indicated in the draft notice, the commission recommended, after considering the relevant legislation and factors that must be

taken into account, the following: That 3% adjustment be made to the remuneration of all categories of public office bearers, the schedule to the notice indicates the total annual remuneration for the chairperson as R1 937 158, the determination applies retrospectively from 1 April 2021.

Coming to the committee’s recommendation, the Standing Committee on Finance, having considered the determination of remuneration of the chairperson and all categories of public office bearers of the Financial and Fiscal Commission, referred to it, adopted this report and approve the President’s determination of remuneration of members of the Financial and Fiscal Commission. We are therefore ...


... Sihlalo ohloniphekileko,


... tabling this report for consideration by this august House, and we move that this report be adopted.



Declarations of votes:

Ms W R ALEXANDER: House Chairperson, despite their significant potential value, the recommendations of the Fiscal Commission seem to fall on deaf ears in the current format. In today’s economic climate, a strong financial policy and direction is never more important.

In line with the National Development Plan, South Africa’s growth strategy aims to improve the conditions for job creation, infrastructure investment, trade and commission. The problem is that these strategies are not taking route and delivering results. The sad reality is that South Africa’s economy is simply not performing at the levels it needs to in order to produce prosperous country for our citizens to live in. Weak governance is demonstrated to us daily by the government’s unwillingness or inability to carry out its financial responsibilities through strong policies and combating corruption at an industrial scale.

South Africans directly experiences this devastating impact of the government’s inaction every day through the high unemployment rates, extreme poverty, high levels of violent crime and alongside very few opportunities for people to take and participate meaningfully in the economy.

It is imperative that Treasury incorporates the recommendations from the commission in order to strengthen the country’s financial position. To enhance the relationship between Treasury and the commission is important so that they work together, as the commission provides valuable input for the Treasury, but it’s the last mile, it’s the finish, it’s the implementation where this relationship fails.

Every year the commission makes valuable suggestions on how to balance South Africa’s proverbial check book, but the Treasury does not appear to take these suggestions into account. While the commission is an advisory role to the government, and Treasury is paying for this commission to add value to the country’s financial management, it seems only logical that we should get value for money, but for years this advice seems to be overlooked.

Potentially, Treasury’s dysfunctional policies make it difficult for the implementation of the commission’s recommendations. Currently, the nation is grappling with maintaining a balanced fiscal account due to the scarcity of funds.

In the recommendations made by the commission almost annually, one of them is the major concern lies in the debt accumulated by the state owned entities who are on the brink of collapse, which presents a risk of devastating consequences for our economy. This burden of servicing this debt is characterised by the high interest rates, which is both unsustainable and substantial.

Alarmingly, resources could have been effectively directed towards public service instead of being consumed by these debt ridden entities. This predicament calls for a comprehensive, robust and strategically aim to curtail the excessive escalating costs and optimise resources efficiently. Another example is that government is either naive or merely dishonest to proclaim that more health funding by the proposed scheme will improve the condition of health at state hospitals.

These are all sensible recommendations. This prudent part is simply not adhered to. In essence, the country now has an unfunded budget, Treasury has overestimated South Africa’s economic growth, which it hasn’t achieved, gross domestic product, GDP, growth is barely above 0%, a far cry from the 2% predicted by Treasury.

While it is true that many nations are currently experiencing economic slowdowns, the performance of our economy is one of the largest developing nations in Africa has been disheartening. It is an unfortunate irony that South Africa, instead of leading the charge, is hindering the economic progress of sub-Saharan Africa. Realistically, we cannot expect a major turn around without addressing the electricity crisis head on.

At present, the commission holds the potential to provide significant value. However, in this existing configuration, it seemingly functions just as another department consuming resources without contributing adequate value in return. The commission is not solely responsible for this; the Treasury’s operation has a lot to do with this as well. For many years the Auditor-General faced a similar problem where the recommendations from the AG lived and died in the annual financial statement.

The financial commission can only add value if its recommendations are taken seriously by Treasury and finds ways to implement them. Until this time, under the current unalignment of the Treasury’s financial policies and the

commission’s terms of reference, it simply does not make sense to go down this road. The DA does not support this report.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Thank you, Chairperson, the EFF supports the adoption of the report on the determination of the remuneration for members of the financial and fiscal commission, we acknowledge the critical role that this institution holds within our constitutional framework.
However, it is our duty as Parliament to critically assess the performance and impact of such institutions on the welfare of our people and the functioning of our Parliament.

The FFC as mandated by our Constitution is established as an independent and an impartial body intended to make influential recommendations to this very House. Yet, despite the clarity of its mandate, we struggle to pinpoint significant, tangible contributions or submissions by the FFC that have catalyse meaningful shifts within this Parliament. It appears rather painful that the FFC operates more like a subcommittee of Standing committee on Finance rather than an independent and influential constitutional body. We need to ask ourselves: What is being the true impact of the FFC on our legislative processes and more importantly on the lives of the citizens we represent? We cannot blindly approve salary increments and

allowances without interrogating the value and output provided by these office bearers. Our commitment is, first and foremost to the people of South Africa not to institutional formality and routine, particularly the striking is the FFC’s lack of concrete responses to the recent budget cuts and critical sectors such as health, education, and Police Services. These are areas that directly impact the lives of the wellbeing of our people and where the FFC should be providing comprehensive analysis and advice to informal decision policies. Yet, we have seen little or no contributions in this regard.

In conclusion, while we approve the proposed remuneration determination for the FFC members as set out in this report, we simultaneously call for a rigorous assessment of the FFC’s performance. This body should not be a mere formality. It should actively demonstrate its value and fulfil its constitutional mandate. We expect the FFC to illustrate the real impact in budget cuts. Now ... [Inaudible.] ... actively participate in shaping this nation/s fiscal and financial landscape. Thank you very much.

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much House Chair, section 9 of FFC Act makes provision that for members of these institutions must be remunerated even to account the

recommendations of the independent of the public or office bearers. We all understand the importance of the work done by such institutions and their role in strengthening their democracy, especially at the time like this when the will of our people is at risk, is being undermined by the very same people who fought it.

It is also important that those who served in such institutions are well provided with benefits in order to retain ... [Inaudible.] ... skill that we need. In the interest of our country and keen deep sense of service to our people. as the IFP, we understand that those who are serving in these institutions are not actual well remunerated.
However, we take pride in knowing that they are not necessarily serving just to get paid, but they are motivated by the love and the service to their nation. So, the IFP supports the report presented by the committee and we only wish that they will continue to work with the absolute integrity and honesty.


Bangavumeli Sihlalo amanqe namanketshane ukuba abaluthe njengalokhu sesazi ukuthi sesihola ngabaholi abambaxambili

abazenza abaholi kolunye uhlangothi kanti bayizigebengu bashintshe ...


 ... the same institutions to achieve their own agendas which are not known to us. Therefore, we have seen some members who are serving in such institutions ...


 ... beshiya imisebenzi ngendlela engahloniphekile ngenxa yokuthi bavumele laba ababizwa ngamasela ukuthi babasebenzise. Njengoba sizwa kunuka santungwana kulezinsuku komunye oyilungu ohloniphekileyo lale Ndlu ozama ukwenza kona lokungcola esingakufuni kokuba kungcoliswe izakhiwo ezinjengalezi ezimiselwe ukuthi zisize izwe lethu. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.
Siyaweseka lo mbiko njengeqembu leNkatha.

Mr W W WESSELS: No declaration from us.

Mr S N SWART: No declaration, but the ACDP supports the report.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Chairperson, can I do it from here. Fine, the National Freedom Party will support the report

tabled here today. Allow me also to draw to the attention of this House that a very well-known presenter Eusebius McKaiser has just passed on a short while ago. May his soul rest in peace. Condolences to his family and his friends.

Now, let me also draw the attention of this House that 23 Palestinian children given the fact that we are talking about children in this week. Twenty-three Palestinian children were killed in 2023 alone. But the financial and fiscal commission has a very important role to play. Being a member of the Standing Committee on Appropriation particularly, this particular organisation has contributed immensely to give guidance, wisdom, and direction particular to the standing Committee on Appropriation dealing with the budget itself. In fact, some of the recommendations they made or concerns that they’ve raised is on the rise in debts, rise in debt service costs, the key continuous bailouts of state-owned entities and of Course, they also spoken about many other state-owned entities. That’s a concern, not forgetting the very one important aspect that is the bloated Public Sector Wage Bill that they have been raising concerns. However, it would appear that with the guidance, the wisdom, and the direction that they give the question is: To what extent do we as government consider what the financial and fiscal commission gives us? I

think, if we can take what they give us into consideration, we might be able to change, particularly the issue of the high levels of debts and borrowings. If you see the latest United State of America is 31 trillion US dollars in debt and we certainly don’t want to go in the same direction. The NFP supports this report. Thank you.


Nom G J SKOSANA: Sihlalo, noSomlomo, namaLunga ahloniphekileko, nesizwe sakwethu.


We have to go back to what we said last year, after our oversight visit to the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and what happened when we try to meet with the FFC, for oversight. We engaged the FFC throughout the financial year on their research and recommendations on a sustainable fiscal and equitable intergovernmental physical relation system.

Over the years, we have drawn from the quality of their research and have often found agreement on their findings and recommendations.


Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ...


... they have argued for an equitable share within the spheres of government within a system that is characterised by mismatches of both vertical and horizontal imbalances. The struggle has been centred on intergovernmental fiscal transfers and the matter of in particular equity on who and how this is to be found in the actual distribution of revenue.

Notwithstanding its constitutional status, history demonstrates that many of its recommendations have not been considered and incorporated into a more equitable intergovernmental fiscal relation systems. This should worry us if we are in agreement with their recommendations.

So, in this case hon Gwarube, we do agree with the DA that recommendations that have been made the FFC on many occasions have never been taken into consideration by the National Treasury. However, we do not agree that that should be used as the basis for not agreeing to a 3% increment. We think that we should agree with the 3% increment, but subsequent to that we need to dig deeper to the challenges that are there at the FFC. Challenges that relates to governance issues, internal

controls, the negative audit outcomes and the high staff turnover. We think all these challenges that the DA and other colleagues including the EFF, need to be addressed. However, we should not use them as the basis for not agreeing to the increment. We also fully agree with the EFF in that particular regard.

So, we are saying, hon members, one of the criteria that should inform our response with the President’s recommendation is measuring the impact of the FFC’s recommendations in recent years. If we are unable to measure this, then what are we agreeing to?

Given that many of the recommendations are not being considered. It stands to reason that the impact of the FFC on influencing government, is going to be reduced, as is the case.

Hon members, [MaLunga ahloniphekileko.] let us be clear, when we came back from our visit, from the FFC, last year and again this year, we had deep concerns where all parties shared and this is contained in the oversight report tabled in this House. Many of the recommendations of the FFC in recent years were partially taken into consideration or not at all.

Certainly and if that is the case, what do we expect will happen to the institution?

Certainly, one cannot expect that recommendations and advice must be adopted. They have to be considered against existing policy and policy direction.

In addition, there are a host of financial considerations including the fiscal framework and revenue standing of the national fiscus. As we said once an advisory boy feels that its advice and recommendations are not considered and given the level of technical skills and capability that exists at the FFC, people will start to move on to elsewhere, where they believe they can make a difference. Evidence of this is to be found in the staff turnover.

So, the committee needs to get a far deeper explanations especially from the National Treasury as to why advices and recommendations of the FFC are not considered or suitable under the circumstances? Provinces, local government and SA Local Government Association, Salga, have extensively expressed their views on these particular matters.


Sitjhaba sekhethu ...


... negative audit outcomes and the high level of audit outcomes at the executive level are symptomatic of a bigger problem. At the time of our oversight visit, last year, the vacancy rate stood at almost 21%.

On audit opinion findings role, from one year to the next really should tell us that it is a lack of consequence management when a constitutional body struggles with compliance to legislation.

So all these hon members are issues we think needs to be taken into consideration. It is on those basis that we agree with our colleagues from the opposition benches that the FFC must get its house in order. They must address all challenges that they are facing. However, we are also saying that the National Treasury should also take the recommendations from the FFC into consideration because we believe that those recommendations might assist us as Parliament and our government. However, we do not agree that the challenges that they are facing as an institution should be used as a reason for not agreeing to the 3% increment. We are saying, let us

giving them the 3%, but let us dig deeper to the challenges. Let us continue to monitor them and ensure that they get their house in order and address all the issues challenging them

That being said as the ANC, we support this report and its recommendations.


Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo ohloniphekileko.

There was no debate.

Question put.

Report adopted and Determination of Remuneration of members of members of the Financial and Fiscal Commission accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, may I draw your attention to a situation here. We put scarves around our necks to demonstrate solidarity in many different affiliations. However, it is not allowed in this House to have anything that has a party logo on it. So, please, look at your

scarves and if it does have a party logo, please just take it out or hide it when you are in the House. Thank you very much.

The Secretary will read the last order of the day.



Mnu F D XASA: Sihlalo weNdlu, uSomlomo ebekuthiwe ukhona apho, nabo bonke abantu abanoxanduva.


The Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs having considered the draft notice on the determination ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members. Order hon members, there is a lot of noise please. ...
[Inaudible] ... down. Continue hon Xasa.

Mr F D XASA: Having considered the Draft Notice on the Determination of Remuneration of Independent Constitutional Institutions referred to it on 13 June 2022 reports as follows: The Speaker of the National Assembly referred to the committee, the draft notice from the President of the Republic of South Africa for consideration and report.

The latter notified the National Assembly of the President’s determination of the salaries and allowances of members of the independent constitutional institutions in terms of the Determination of Remuneration of Office Bearers of Independent Constitutional Institutions Laws Amendment Act 24 of 2014.

Section 14(1) of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities Act 19 of 2002, provides that the Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson, and other members of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities are entitled to annual salaries and other benefits from time to time to be determined by the President.

For the 2021-22 financial year, the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers recommended to the

President a 3% annual salary increment for all office bearers of the independent constitutional institutions. Taking into consideration the commission’s recommendation the President has expressed an intent to determine 3% salary increment for all public office bearers of independent constitutional institutions.

Having considered the above, the Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, approves the recommended 3% increment. We suggest that Parliament should I accept this recommendation. Thank you very much.

Declaration of Votes:

Ms E R J SPIES: House Chair, the commission is tasked with promoting and protecting cultural, religious, and linguistic rights. Concerns have been raised that its footprint at local level, particularly in rural areas, is largely unknown. If you go to any community in the Klein Karoo for an example, they will tell you that they don't know what Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural Religious and Linguistic Communities, CRL, stands for, nor do they know what the duties of this commission is and that they have never engaged with communities in these areas. This is the sad reality.

There are currently approximately 300 community councils in existence which the commission is working on capacitating through its public education program, but nowhere can one find any evidence of the commission's collaboration with other spheres of government and other relevant stakeholders to achieve this.

It must be noted that there are instances where the commission has not fully utilized its allocated budget. The commission has been allocated the budget of R47 million in 2023/24. A transfer from the Department of Traditional Affairs to execute its responsibilities.

However, the commission’s achievement of predetermined service delivery objectives has not changed significantly from previous financial years, where the administration and the legal services and conflict resolution programs account for all the non-achieved targets.

Over the years, it's concerning to note that the commission’s budget is earmarked for internal administrative overheads.
That means that over 67% of the commission's budget is geared towards payment of organizational overheads rather than service delivery deliverables.

The assumption that one can make is that either the commission is existing primarily for the payment of salaries and other overheads. As in the previous years, going as far as the third administration, the commission continues to decry inadequate funding, which reportedly hinders it from deploying all the resources to enable it to deliver on its mandate.

At the same time, the commission has no clear resource mobilization.strategy. Previously, the commission indicated to the committee that it had a draft resource mobilization strategy, and this remains a challenge.

Hon members, the approach of rewarding people for not fulfilling their duties and not carrying out their mandates cannot be supported and the relevance of the Commission for Religious and Linguistic Rights needs to be completely re- looked. The DA cannot support this report.

Mr K CEZA: Hon Chairperson, we accept the recommendation of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-bearers in relations to the CRL Right commission, which has recommended a 3% annual salary increment for all office bearers of the of the independent constitutional institutions with serious reservations.

Firstly, that the Commission for the Promotion of the Protection of Rights of Cultural, Religious, and Linguistic Communities responsible for deepening the appreciation of South Africans for the wide array of cultures, religions and languages found in the country.

However, an aerial photograph of the commission claims a completely different picture in relation to how it had handled some issues pertaining to COVID-19 pandemic and cultural intolerances which were seen during that period.

Chairperson, secondly, the CRL Rights Commission failures and the ineffectiveness to deal with the grassroots mobilizations of some Indians which ended the life of Jabulani Dlamini, a 31-year-old, father of eleven who was killed on the 16th of July 2021 by some Indian resident manning roadblocks is undesirable to say the least.

The CRL Rights Commission lags regarding the issues of the allocation of their location in localities where tribal and racist tensions of the unfair victimization of farm dwellers such by farm owners such as ... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, members. Don’t drown the speaker.

Mr K CEZA: ... such as mama Esther Motau, who has been stopped from accessing from accessing her home since 2019, in plot JS223 Onderkloof. She cannot even access his ancestral land and graveyard to perform rituals in Emakhazeni, a white racist home.

Perhaps these tensions cannot be alleviated because they are not happening to a privileged sector of our society, they happen to black people, hence the sense of urgency is not found there.

Therefore, to condemn cruelty through media cannot be equated to justice being done. This commission has dismally failed to release their findings into allegations of cultism and human rights abuses at Kwasizabantu.

The CRL Rights Commission men intensified their view on diminished cultures and hegemonic status of indigenous languages which were historically oppressed and elevate them to the top of the agenda of the country, this is even against some actors who are barring these issues to be elevated.

The EFF supports the Chapter 9 institutions and the CRL Rights Commission must be amongst the most efficient oversight institutions to ensure that those who practice their culture in urban areas are not harassed by law enforcement agencies.

Hate crimes and xenophobia are also part of what the CRL Rights Commission must clamp on as such crimes speak the to the capitalist divide and rule in which self-hate must thrive. The EFF rejects. Thank you very much.

Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, just as the Constitution holds a true promise on the one hand, empowering government and protecting existing rights, while on the other hand, providing a vision of a non-racial, non-sexist future, in which all communities and members of the South African society may flourish, Chapter 9 establishes institutions that are designed to both secure existing rights and democratic achievements and provide an institutional mechanism for setting the norms and capacities for moving towards a vision of a brighter future.

At one end of the institutional spectrum, the Independent Electoral Commission, the Auditor-General and the Public Protector are institutions that are primarily designed to

ensure good governance. On the other hand, the South African Human Rights Commission, the Commission for Gender Equality and the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, not only look to the present, but are also designed to advance and extend these interest towards the achievement of the vision of a more equitable and sustainable society.

Therefore, the IFP notes with great pleasure, the recent hearings that were conducted by the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities. We fully agree with the commission that the overreliance on English as a primary language used in the South African Court to be addressed to ensure more equitable usage of the 11 other official languages.

However, we would like to also remind the commission on how important it is to continue their pursuit of this matter, as we too often see the important work of Chapter 9 Institutions dissipate, due to a lack of urgency and continuity.

Considering the state of our economy, we do not take a 3% salary increment lightly, rather we would like to see tangible results of how these public office bearers deliver on their

mandate within the various Chapter 9 commissions. The IFP accepts the report. Thank you.


Mnr W W WESSELS: Agb Huisvoorsitter, hierdie kommissie se bestaan word gevind in artikel 185 van die Grondwet. In konstitusionele reg kry mens drie konsepte. Die een is vervalle grondwetlike reg, die tweede, vervangende grondwetlike reg; en die derde, doodgebore grondwetlike reg. Met alle respek teenoor die skrywers van ons Grondwet, is baie artikels en bepalings nie net in ons gekodifiseerde Grondwet nie, maar ook in ons konstitusie as geheel dood gebore. Dit sluit 185 in, want as ons werklik eerlik met mekaar is, dan is daar nie die bevordering van kultuurgemeenskappe in Suid- Afrika nie.

Kulture en linguistieke-gemeenskappe word aan die tirannie van die meerderheid uitgelewer, en gemeenskappe word nie beskerm om hulle kultuur, taal en godsdiens uit te leef nie.

Hierdie kommissie vervul nie sy werklike grondwetlike mandaat nie en is eintlik net ’n plek waar mense aangestel word en waar hierdie doodgebore konstitusionele reg nie werklik in die lewe gebring word en uitgelewe word, om ons grondwetlike

waardes en die gees en strekking van die Grondwet in Suid- Afrika te verwesenlik nie. Ek dank u.

Ms D R DIREKO: Hon House Chair, hon Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip, hon members of the House, fellow South Africans, the ANC supports the draft notice of the determination of remuneration for independent constitutional institutions. For the 2021-22 financial year, the Independent Commission for Remuneration of Public Office Bearers recommended to the President a 3% annual salary increment for all the office bearers of the independent constitutional institutions.

Taking in consideration the commission’s recommendations, the President has expressed an intent to determine a 3% salary increment for all public office bearers for independent constitutional institutions.

If we are to take into consideration the increment in the costs of living with high energy costs, costs of goods and services, the inflation rate has an impact on the income of workers in real terms. Although this is way below the inflation rate, it will cushion the impact of rising costs.

Despite the economic difficulties that we are facing as a country, we still continue to make the public office bearers’ wellbeing a priority. As government, we also understand the importance of commitment, hence we cannot make a commitment that we cannot fulfil.

The public servant service in Chapter 9 institutions make a significant contribution to our society and we should recognise them and provide them sufficient support and also motivate them, as they do a great work.

We support this notion to enhance the livelihoods of the working people but also, as a recognition of public servants playing a critical role in supporting our constitutional democracy.

The commission is a Chapter 9 institution, which stems from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. It protects the human rights of all, in relation to the rights of communities to freely observe and practice their cultures, religion and languages.

This is an important constitutional obligation to empower diverse cultures, which could have been marginalised by

colonial rule. Chapter 2 of the Bill of Rights section 31 states that, and I quote: “Persons belonging to a cultural, religious or linguistic community may not be denied the right with other members of that community (a) to enjoy their culture, practice their religion and use their languages; and
(b) to form, join and maintain religious, cultural and linguistic association and other organs of civil society.”

One of the policy priorities of the Sixth Administration has been to keep compensation costs at a sustainable level, to enable public expenditure to contribute to the real socioeconomic development.

In a country like South Africa with a history of discrimination and people being treated unequally, the strengthening of the commission’s work is an action to undo the injustices of our painful past.

In a country diverse as South Africa, we need organisationally strong institutions to execute the terms of the commission’s primary functions, which are investigating conflict resolution on any issue concerning the rights of cultural, religious and linguistic communities; promote community participation through cultural, religious and linguistic community

structures, to promote and protect the right of communities to their heritage.

The work if the institution and the work of the office bearers are very crucial for the benefit of our citizens. The office bearers and the entire commission need all the support they can get from us.

We wish the members of the commission a progressive period of service in the institution. We live in times where religion is being abused for various ends at enrichment. We should protect our communities from the person or the people who exploit the vulnerability of communities due to their religions or heritage.

We must protect the dignity of our people and also protect our country from being exploited of regulation governing religious institutions for money and financial abuses.

The commission should be supported and should also be given the necessary tools of trade, so that they can operate and be spread throughout our country, because we have realised recently when you look at the situation of the churches and other practices, it is sometimes being abused. So, it is

important that they are resourced and motivated to do their work.

I also need to indicate that when one of our colleagues from the EFF was presenting here ... As you know them, they also like to deviate.

We are discussing the remuneration and the EFF is part of our committee and they are also having access to the CRL Commission, but it is really, really out of order for them to come there and use the challenges of the people to score ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members! Please, don’t drown the speaker.

Ms D R DIREKO: You should be ashamed of yourself. You have direct link to the CRL office bearers, but you come here and grandstand, while you can just give them a call and address the issue that we have just raised.

Lastly, I want to indicate that you are really confused. Hence, in your speech, you supported the 3%. When you conclude, you rejected the 3%. That shows how confused you are as the red berets. Thank you.

There was no debate.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, Freedom Front Plus, National Freedom Party and African National Congress.

Report adopted and Determination of Remuneration of the public office Bearers of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities accordingly approved (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

The House adjourned at 17:08.




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