Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 31 Mar 2022


No summary available.



Watch Video here: Questions to the Deputy President

The House met at 14:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to remind you that in the nterest of safety for all present in the Chamber, please keep your masks on and sit in your designated area. Thank you. The items on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Deputy President. There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the Presiding Officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness amongst others has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the Deputy President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. Members asking
supplementary questions or raising a point of order may remain seated when doing so. The first question has been asked by the hon LE Molala to the Deputy President. I have been informed that the Deputy President will be answering questions from the Chamber as you can see.

Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you hon Speaker. As government we have created regulatory environment that is very conducive to opening up the market for alternative power generation producers. Within the framework of the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, alternative energy generation measures are being explored and implemented to augment electricity supply and improve the stability of the grid.

In addition, the President announced the amendment of Schedule 2 of the Electricity Regulation Act 2000, increasing the embedded generation threshold from one to 100 megawatts. In this regard, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, DMRE, has amended the electricity regulations of new generation capacity and has put together processes that should be followed to ensure the request by municipalities for own generation are speedily attended to.
Hon Speaker, currently, 292 small scale generators have registered with National Energy Regulator of South Africa, NERSA, and have the total generation capacity of 187 megawatts. The IPP office is processing offers by IPP for approval by Eskom and National Treasury. Furthermore, the Minister of Mineral of Mineral Resources and Energy has issued determinations on the required new generation capacity in concurrence with NERSA. The determination made resulted in the procurement of 7309 megawatts from renewable energy. Most of these power plants are already operational with less than 400 megawatts still under construction. Hon Speaker, we can report that the following achievement has been made. Preferred bidders for 2600 megawatts, for renewable energy known as Bid Window 5, were announced in 2021 with the financial close plan for April 2022. The request for our proposals for 2600 megawatts of renewable energy under Bid Window 6 is scheduled for release this end of March. Requests for proposals for 513 megawatts of battery storage is scheduled to be released by the end of April this year.

Requests for proposals for 1600 megawatts of renewable energy under Bid Window 7 will be issued in August 2022. However, we must make the point that Eskom’s load shedding is not as a result of limited market role for alternative power generation, but mainly as a result of breakdowns encountered from the old and aging power generation infrastructure. The Eskom Political Task Team continues to provide support to ensure that Eskom meet its obligation of providing electricity. This support includes ensuring that Eskom in the short term is able to implement credible and transparent national maintenance programme, to ensure that power generation plants operate at optimal level to reduce negative impacts of electricity supply disruptions. Collectively, these measures are aimed at addressing the current load shedding and future power generation needs. I thank you, Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I have been informed that hon M J Wolmarans will take charge of the follow up question
in terms of Rule(137(10)A) of the National Assembly. Mr M J WOLMARANS: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, since the objective of the Risk Mitigation Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme, RMIPPPP, is to procure energy from projects that are near completion. And
given that the energy availability factor is responsible for load shedding, what role should the RMIPPPP play in strengthening of the grid amid the declining supply of energy?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. The emergency procurement process was solely meant to augment the current short-term supply gap, alleviate the current electricity supply constraints and reduce the extensive utilisation of diesel based picking electricity generators. This goes and bodes well for our mixed generation capacity into the future to allow more and more IPPs to come into the grid and this goes according to our IRP2019. Thank you very much.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy President, you would recall that the Integrated Resource Plan 2019, identifies the necessary generation mix of technologies to respond to the country’s demand for electricity in the medium-term. And that, in terms of the RMIPPPP, projects are supposed to be connected to the grid as from August 2022. However, you are aware that the deadline for Independent Bidders was extended three times. The initial deadline was July 2021, the second one was 30 September and, the last one was January 2022. Since the January 2022 one, we are not aware of any public communication from the department whether or not the eleven Bidders have achieved financial pros. What are you going to do to make sure that as is indicated in the RMIPPPP, that indeed, these projects are connected to the grid to boost up the energy for the country?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. To date, I think above 6000 megawatts have been connected to the grid flowing from IPPs. I am aware that 400 megawatts are still under construction. Of course, there are unforeseen delays which are delaying the connection to the grid. But we are already hopeful that the process will go according to plan. Because already more than 600 megawatts have been connected. So, we are heading there. Thank you.

Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Hon Speaker, clearly, the market need to open up to help resolve our electricity crisis and noting that in this regard, the RMIPPPP has been postponed for the third time this year. Part of this solution involves just to fill the gap currently plugged by expensive ... [Inaudible.] ... in diesel suppliers. Given that we missed the boat in securing a gas block in Mozambique and that the ANC is sitting on the upstream Bill which will remove some aspects of ministerial discretion, - thank God. Can the Deputy President share much needed light on the prospective deals between Russia’s Gazprom bank and Azerbaijan Republic, SOCAR, and Central Energy Fund, CEF, to build a R7 billion natural gas to electricity plant at Coega, which incidentally has no pipeline and would cost R15 million. Is this perhaps a replacement for a nuclear deal that the Cape High Court deemed unlawful and is now part of a sweet of Russian investments in other provinces? Which may explain our dismal stance on Russian aggression in the Ukraine.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I’m not aware of these projects especially those that are Russian connected, I’m not aware of those projects. The only thing I can confirm hon members is that discussions between our Minister of Mineral Resources and Mozambique are quite advance in terms ofn gas that we should transport from Mozambique to the country. I can safely say, we have reached an agreement. Thank you very much.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much beautiful Speaker. Deputy President ... [Interjections.] ...
AN HON MEMBER: You are out of order.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: ... She is beautiful. Madam Speaker, you are very much beautiful. Deputy President, the Minister of Public Enterprises indicated that Eskom is in the process of establishing a clean energy unit within Eskom, which will work towards ensuring that Eskom itself produces renewable energy for the country. If Eskom has the capacity to produce renewable energy by itself and help the just transition process, why government investment so much money on independent power producers who are going to be a competition to Eskom? And realistically, can IPP supply the energy demands for the country’s industrial demands?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. It was important for us to open the market and follow the IRP2019. Because the demand is just too huge and currently, Eskom cannot meet the demands. As we speak, Eskom has already started to repurpose Komati Power Station into renewable with the capacity of 244 megawatts and battery storage. Which is a good sign from the Eskom’s side. But of course, renewable energy takes long and the projects connect low amounts of megawatts into the grid. I said, 292 small generators collectively have connected 187 megawatts, which is very low in terms of the need of the county. As much as we open the market Eskom should proceed.

We are going to repurpose probably six or seven power stations. Your Camden, Grootvlei that have reached their lifespan. So this process is proceeding. Thank you very much.

Question 2:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Honourable Speaker, indeed, on 10 March this year we consulted the traditional and Khoi-San leaders on progress made in the fight against the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic. We communicated to them the intention of government to lift the National State of Disaster as advised by the National Coronavirus Command Council, including calling on each sector to develop its own sector plan to continue fighting the spread of Covid-19.
The traditional and Khoi-San leaders expressed support for the work done by government in the implementation of the Covid-19 Risk Adjusted Strategy. The leaders encouraged government to fast track the finalisation of amendments to health regulations towards ending the National State of Disaster. The leaders further committed to continue in partnering with government on the path of advancing efforts on communities vaccinating against the Covid-19 pandemic, in the spirit of saving lives and livelihoods. In accelerating our vaccination programme, we have consistently ensured that we also consult with interfaith leaders to solicit their inputs, and access places of worship to promote vaccination. In our view, these consultations, which are not only with the traditional and with Khoi-San leaders, have reaffirmed South Africa’s strength of working in partnership with various social partners for the common good of our country. The success we have achieved in bringing down Covid-19 infections, hospitalisation and deaths is due to strong partnerships with various social formations and communities.

We must thank the private sector, organised labour, civil society, sport federations, athletes, artists and cultural workers, as well as all vaccination ambassadors who gave time and resources to partner with government in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic. I thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Good afternoon, Deputy President. Deputy President, let me start out by saying that I could not wait for my vaccine; I was the first person in line, I was the first person to have my second vaccine and I have had booster. I am a very big believer in science and I know that we can’t force anyone to believe it, but I believe in it, and if I could, I would shout it from the roof tops that we need our vaccines. [Applause.] It is something that I actually have to applaud government on. When I turn on an SABC channel, there are adverts about the vaccine and telling us that the vaccine is safe. We know that the vaccine is safe, but I can’t believe I am going to say these words, because for me, I am so sick of hearing about commissions and command councils and things like that. I honestly think that it is time that we have a commission of our traditional leaders and our elders who go around to areas where younger people ...

The SPEAKER: What is your question, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: My question, Madam Speaker,
is: Would the Deputy President consider having a commission made out of the elders of the Khoi-San and traditional leaders to go to the areas and explain how safe the vaccine is and why it is so important that people have the vaccine?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think we have started that process with traditional leaders. We started last year as we were trying to push very hard to reach our target in December. We were together with traditional leaders, interfaith leaders as well as traditional healers. They all agreed to partner with government to encourage our people to vaccinate. I think we should continue that way because putting up a commission which will be another structure again would probably be too expensive. It is very easy to work with traditional leaders to go to their communities where people live. These traditional communities are willing to take up these vaccines. So, the strategy now is to take the vaccine to our people where they live. Thank you very much.

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Mr T B MUNYAI: Hon Speaker, thank you for the opportunity.
Thank you, His Excellency, hon Deputy President Mabuza, for
answering the question. His Excellency, President Ramaphosa,
has described vaccination rollout as the largest emergency
project to be managed by the democratic government, due to the
vast distribution system required to inoculate millions of
South Africans.
We welcome the fact that this programme has led to
17,8 million South Africans who are fully vaccinated whilst
33,4 million doses have been administered in the country. As
the chairperson of the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Covid-19
Vaccine, what capabilities has this programme build in our
health care system? What lessons have been learned in
harnessing the entire health care system, inclusive of the
private sector, as envisaged by the ANC National Insurance
Policy? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I think, through this mega
project, government has learned to work together with civil
society, private sector and a whole range of stakeholders to
implement this project. It was not an easy journey and we are
still in that journey. Of course, there are notable
achievements that we have made because we have managed to

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vaccinate that number of our people, and of course, we have
not reached our target. We are still calling upon our people
to go out in their numbers to go and vaccinate.
I heard yesterday someone was urged here to go and vaccinate.
It is a good thing, Reverend, it is a good thing to go and
vaccinate. This is the only protection that is scientifically
proven that can help us from this Covid-19.
We have learned through this project to manage a pandemic, and
I think in the process we have managed to build a very
resilient and a strong health system. We were not going to
succeed and be where we are if we had a weak health system. We
must, upfront, thank our health workers, some of them died in
the line of duty and were brave enough not to surrender but to
go forward and ensure that people are vaccinated. [Applause.]
So, we must thank them. We must also thank the Minister of
Health and the entire department for all the courage and the
hard work to try and get everyone vaccinated everywhere in the
country. This has taught us that we need to partner with our
people. The department has done that very well and we must
thank them. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

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Ms M D HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, to the Deputy President,
together with the Inter-Ministerial Committee, what discussion
have you had with the Amakhosi in the KwaZulu-Natal province
regarding funding, logistics, planning and public education
for accelerated rollout of the Covid-19 vaccination? I thank
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Our meeting with the traditional leaders
and Khoi-San leaders in KwaZulu-Natal was a very successful
meeting. We must thank the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government
because there we found that they are working with the
traditional leaders and carrying out programmes together. Some
of the programmes were led by the late ingonyama himself and
the entirety of the family of traditional leaders followed.
They are doing very well partnering with government, and they
are prepared to go an extra mile.
In the midst of the Covid-19 waves that we have gone through,
KwaZulu-Natal was amongst those provinces that were hard-hit
by Covid-19. Through that partnership with traditional leaders
and interfaith leaders they managed to pull through, of
course, with a number of people that were lost. We must thank
the traditional leaders for their partnership with the
government of KwaZulu-Natal, the same in Limpopo and

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Mpumalanga, where I went, and finally I went to the Northern
Cape and it is the same. So, traditional leaders are onboard
and prepared to work with government. Thank you very much.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Speaker, to the Deputy President, people
lose trust in government for a number of reasons including
lack of transparency, telling half truths and unfulfilled
promises. Early last week you met with religious leaders to
discuss matters around Covid-19 and vaccination, but did not
inform them that churches with more than 1000 members meeting
indoors would be required, according to the latest Draft
National Health Regulations, to ensure that those attending
have a vaccination certificate. Such an omission has left
these leaders feeling betrayed by government. My question is
whether or not you discussed this requirement when you met
with the National House of Traditional and Khoi-San Leaders.
And if so, what was the reason for not raising this important
issue with religious leaders when you last met? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure that hon Rev was not part of
that meeting with the religious leaders, therefore, you will
not know exactly what we discussed. It could be a hearsay. To
be honest with you, I have consulted with them. I was not
alone, in fact, I was with the Minister of Cooperative

Page: 17
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, the Deputy Minister
of Health. These are the two that have presented our proposals
and they have left no stone unturned. They have said
Now, just to respond to you about the interfaith leaders.
Firstly, they requested that we must release a relaxed
regulation on the wearing of masks, especially for children in
their Sunday classes. They also said that they are not happy
about the requirement that everyone who goes to church, if it
is above the 1000 inside and they want to go above 50% of the
venue they must then produce a vaccine certificate. They said
they are not happy with that. They do not have a problem if a
venue outside, like a stadium, you can produce a vaccine
certificate, but they have a problem if that is done in the
church. That is what they told us. Traditional leaders said
thumbs up; everything is good. That’s it. Thank you.
Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker, our energy
generation is guided by the integrated resource plan, IRP,
2019, which provides for the use of all energy resources
available in the country. This includes, amongst others, coal,
gas and renewable energy resources. Currently, hon Speaker,

Page: 18
there are no plans for the discontinuation of the use of coal,
as 99% of South Africa’s electricity supply is derived from
coal and 30% of our liquid fuels are derived from the same
commodity – coal. Coal remains one of our largest natural
endowments that will continue to form part of our energy mix
in terms of the IRP 2019.
Notwithstanding this fact, our country is committed to forging
ahead a low-carbon growth path that prioritises environmental
sustainability, in line with our constitutional and
international obligations. We need to ensure that we deploy
new infrastructure, technologies and solutions that enable us
to adhere to ambient air quality standards, and protect the
lives of communities from negative impact of carbon emissions.
Going forward, the IRP 2019 proposes the use of high
efficiency, low emissions coal technologies. Government is
currently working on other measures such as the Gas
Utilisation Master Plan and the Renewable Energy Master Plan.
We are exploring the development of the Nuclear Procurement
Framework as proposed in the IRP 2019. All these are part of
the medium to long-term plans in ensuring security of energy

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Having said that, it is important to point out that, out of
the entire fleet, there are planned optimised plant shutdowns
that is aligned with the integrated resource plan, to balance
capacity, environmental, social and economic considerations.
This is inevitable because, in the main, these plants are
approaching the end of their lifespan, and have become
uneconomical, unpredictable and very costly to run.
Nine coal-fired power stations will be shut down by 2035,
thereby impacting significantly on the reduction of generation
capacity. From a power generation perspective, this is an
immediate priority to address the issue of generation capacity
losses resulting from the planned decommissioning of these
power stations. Of course, the decommissioning of the existing
coal-fired plants will drive the demand for new capacity. As
coal-fired units and stations are shut down, it is essential
that new capacity is added to the grid, to ensure energy
In addition, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy
has tabled a plan for an additional 8 000 MW clean energy
projects to be added to the grid over the next two to five
years. This is a combination of greenfield renewables and gas

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projects, as well as repowering its existing coal sites, as
the coal plant shuts down.
The costs for renewable energy technologies continue to
decline as compared to when we started with Bid Window 1, and
this will add generation capacity sooner and thus reducing the
risk of load shedding. For example, solar photovoltaic
projects now take between 18 to 24 months to complete,
depending their scale. Wind projects have a lead-time of
between 24 and 36 months, and gas requires 24 to 60 months to
complete. Of course, that depends on the amount of megawatts
that are being constructed.
Our current focus on the implementation of the Just Energy
Transition, is Komati Power Station, as the first coal-fired
power station to be repurposed. It will be repurposed in the
next 12 to 18 months, using solar supported by 244 MW battery
storage. Komati is ideally positioned to be a flagship Just
Energy Transition project to act as a proof of concept for
subsequent projects at Grootvlei, Hendrina and Camden power
stations. These are power stations that will follow because
they are scheduled to retire just before 2035.

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Clearly, the socioeconomic impact will be dire if nothing is
done to implement Just Energy Transition plans that will
repower and repurpose these plants to sustain local economic
development activities and job creation in areas that will be
affected by the shutdowns. We need to state upfront that any
just transition that government will undertake will be done
sensibly and in the best interest of the South Africa’s
As part of the energy transition process, studies were
conducted on the impact of plant shutdowns on the communities
where these Eskom power plants are located. Studies based on
the integrated resource plan programme, demonstrate that
300 000 net direct, indirect, and induced jobs could be
created over the next decade by investing in the cleaner
energy programme as described in the IRP 2019.
The studies have also looked into mining projects with
specific attention to the repurposing of old mines,
infrastructure and mine water, as well as the rehabilitation
of mining land or property for farming opportunities. A
significant element of Eskom’s Just Energy Transition strategy
is to ensure that efforts, initiatives and projects are aimed

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towards safeguarding impacted and affected communities as far
as it is possible when a coal plant is shut down.
The repurposing and repowering of the stations to be shutdown
will also involve reskilling and upskilling of staff and
communities to match and align their skills with new
opportunities offered by emerging sectors, especially in
renewable energy sectors. Our approach to the renewable energy
sector must not only focus on energy generation, but must also
have at its centre the goal to stimulate local manufacturing
and reindustrialisation in partnership with other industries
and government, especially in the communities where these
shutdowns are planned.
It must be a programme that contributes to the
reindustrialisation and stimulation of South African
manufacturing sector through localisation of the supply chains
of components, technology and equipment whilst impacting on
the development of black and women industrialists. Without
grid development, new generation capacity development will be
moot. The development of the transmission grid in the Northern
Cape and Eastern Cape provinces is paramount to the addition
of new generation capacity. In aligning these plans to the
expansion of the country’s generation capacity, Eskom has

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tabled a transmission development plan for this purpose, which
indicates that 8 000 km of line must be built in the next 10
This project will require significant financing, which Eskom
has tabled as part of the Just Energy Transition financing and
regulatory support to acquire land and servitudes. In the
final policy-adjusted scenario, the costs that come with the
transition should not be ignored, especially in the context of
a fiscally constrained environment. The speed at which we will
be able to move will be determined by the scope, scale and
availability of resources. Due diligence will be taken to
manage the Just Energy Transition financing modalities in a
responsible manner that does not collapse the economy, and
burden the fiscus with unsustainable debt obligations.
It is our conviction that our undivided focus on the
implementation of our just energy transition and the
completion of restructuring of Eskom, will in future deliver
energy supply security and a much needed reprieve from the
negative impact of load shedding. I thank you.
The SPEAKER: I have been informed that the hon M V Mente will
take charge of the question in terms of Rule 137(10)(a).

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Nksz N V MENTE: Siyabulela Somlomo nobuhlke bakho.
USOMLOMO: Into ikulo mbala ubomvu ...[Kwahlekwa] ...
... now, I realise.
Ms N V MENTE: It is solidarity there. [Laughter.]
... mandibulele.
Deputy President, with your answer, I find it very difficult
to believe it because right at the end, exactly what was going
through my mind was that the balance sheet of Eskom is not
saying what you are saying. And the internal affairs of Eskom
are not saying what you are saying. Now, there are two things.
You are also indicating that the socioeconomic impact of this
is dire to our people – it already is. In fact, Eskom has
given a literal meaning to black people being hewers of wood
because we have gone back to making fire outside. People
cannot afford electricity.

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Now, with this plan, which requires a lot of money, there is
on the other hand a Just Energy Transition, and we have to
repurpose some of the energy plans, and we have Eskom that
does not have capacity internally with a negative balance
sheet. How is this all going to be done? Who is going to
monitor it? Where is this money going to come from? I heard
you saying that you don’t want to burden Treasury, but where
will the money be acquired from? Who is going to get this
electricity by 2035 because right now, if you buy electricity
for R50, you get 10 units? Who is going to buy it in 2035 when
we have repurposed all these energy plants? Thank you very
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Thank
you for the question. The hon member will remember that
government took a decision to support Eskom by giving Eskom
more or less above R219 billion over a spend of three years.
And we are still on that route. Eskom will still continue to
receive its share or support from government for the next one
year. But the Minister of Finance indicated that this is going
to be discontinued. Eskom must find a way of stabilising
itself. In the current situation, if you look at the balance
sheet of Eskom, Eskom is starting to show a positive outlook
with the cushion that is coming from government.

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We have assisted Eskom and all energy users like government
department, municipalities, and we have put pressure on them
to pay, and they are paying. With regard to national
government, I must report that all departments have paid - co-
ordinated by the Minister of Public Works. They have paid what
they owe from Eskom. We are still encouraging municipalities
and we are doing arrangements, Social and Labour Plan, SLPs,
joint programme between Eskom and municipalities to allow
Eskom to collect money from users and pay what is due to
municipalities. This is an attempt to try and get Eskom back
to its original form in terms of finances.
Currently, Eskom is doing this project in Komati, repurposing
that old power plant into renewable. Eskom is doing it with
its own money, and that process is happening. We might not
move at the pace that we are envisaging, but we are getting
there. We must also say – I have even said it in the response,
that the renewables, when we look at Bid Window 1, were very
costly to Eskom. But if you look at Bid Window 5, the
renewables are affordable to Eskom. That means down the line
we are expecting the price of electricity to go down, because
of the impact of renewables that we are opening up to the
grid. This situation is not going to stay the same. As much as
we are being affected by load shedding because of our old

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plants, we are discontinuing these plants and repurposing them
step by step until we stabilise our energy security. Thank you
very much.
The SPEAKER: The second supplementary question will be asked
by the hon S Luzipo from the Chamber.
Mr S LUZIPO: Thank you, hon Speaker, good afternoon hon Deputy
President. Recent statistics shows that unemployment has risen
to about 35,3% in the first quarter of 2021 and it is
estimated that 66% of that is jobless youth. That suggest that
we are faced with a serious problem and therefore any just
transition or movement from high to low emissions must also be
about addressing the triple challenges of unemployment,
poverty and inequality rather than increasing the levels of
these challenges. Therefore, what is government’s position in
this regard as we can ill afford to lose existing sources of
employment. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. I am in the
House, no black cats. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. We
have stated in our reply that one plan is to try to reskill
and upskill those that are currently employed in those power
stations that are planned to be closed. In an attempt to

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retain those that are working currently at those power
stations but still we are mindful of the impact of the closure
of the plants for the surrounding communities. We are saying
that we should reindustrialise and show that we can create
industrialists in those communities, open up the markets for
them to produce services rather than relying on Eskom.
Currently, what is happening is that jobs are only secured in
the mines where they mine the coal and other jobs are secured
in the power station where the coal is being utilised, and in
between the transportation of coal from a mine to a power
station. Currently, those are the jobs that are there. In
terms of repurposing and upskilling of our people in the power
stations, we are going to retain them there. They are moving
from coal to renewables. In this case in Komati, we are going
solar, and we are going to have people that would be employed
in that power station. Of course, there are new power stations
that demands a lot of coal and I have cautioned that we are
moving away from high carbon emissions.
We are looking at technologies that will lower the carbon
emissions. But Medupi and Kusile are new power stations that
will still use coal. In the near future we must find
technologies that will reduce the emissions. That is a

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commitment that we are not going to run away from. The best
permanent solution is to reindustrialise those communities
around these power stations that are going to be closed by
making sure they employ themselves and produce services that
they can sell to the market. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: The third supplementary question will be asked by
the hon A M Shaik Emam through ...
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker. Deputy President,
we are a very suspicious nation. Your visit to Russia and our
neutral stance on the Russian-Ukraine conflict is making
people very suspicious about this gas deal. However, my
question to you is regarding many of these mining areas
particularly coal mining in this particular instance. Now we
know that as a result of pressure internationally, it will
also affect our exports of coal, which means it will be
reduced revenue. What is very important, which is my concern
is that ... I am going to give you an example of land ...
[Inaudible.] ... in the West Coast of the Western Cape. How it
became a ghost town after the industrialisation was reduced.
What can we expect out of these areas surrounding these mines?
Is there no risk or danger that they will also become ghost

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towns with high levels of unemployment and poor socioeconomic
conditions that our people will live with. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Firstly, we must
remove this suspicion about me going to Russia. It’s purely a
matter of medical procedure. It is purely a medical procedure,
and there is nothing sinister and there is nothing hidden.
[Interjections.] From here I go to hospital and from the
hospital, I come back.
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure the hon members will respect
the choice of an individual to choose a hospital ...
[Interjections.] Thank you very much. Now, the question ...
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ooh, I have excited you now.
[Interjections.] The question is about the closure of these
power station in the surrounding communities. We are taking
Komati Power Station as a pilot and all what we are doing now
is that we have employed more people in Komati, that is, more
than the number that was employed before. But some of the jobs

Page: 31
will end when the power station is commissioned, but there are
certain jobs that will remain.
The plan about the communities, as I have said – the only
permanent solution - is to reindustrialise and reskill those
people, allow them to be producers of services they can sell
in the market, supported by government. Who knows, probably,
these communities can produce solar panels that will be
utilised in those power stations. There are a number of
commodities that are going to be utilised in those power
stations that we can open up the market for these communities
to produce. But let’s take Komati Power Station as a pilot,
and we are going to improve from that one. Thank you very
The SPEAKER: The last supplementary question will be asked by
the hon W J Boshoff through the virtual platform.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you, hon Speaker, and thank you hon
Deputy President for the opportunity. I also think of
preindustrial times in which energy is not abundant but widely
distributed so that everybody would pick up his own wood and
they use it on a daily basis. That has all changed with ...
[Inaudible.] ... in the solar age, if you actually changing

Page: 32
back just to have a roof, enables one to generate the energy
that one might use for their own family even some to sell.
What I want to ask is regarding the policy of embedded
generators. Does the Deputy President envisage a future when
an equivalent number of producers and consumers are linked to
the power grid? In other words, where virtually the consumer
is also a producer of electricity, having a smart grid to the
capacity to utilise the country’s graphic spread and variety
of ... [Inaudible.] ... conditions. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, hon Speaker, but it was difficult
to hear, but the hon member is talking about the embedded
energy generation. The President announced the movement from 1
megawatt to 100 megawatts. That has led to the amendment of
the Act and it is happening. The sole purpose of that is to
allow companies that have the capacity to produce that energy
to do so, but all that they must do is to register those
operations with the National Energy Regulator of South Africa,
Nersa. That in a way should try and allow companies to sustain
their operations. They must not wait for Eskom; they must not
be disrupted by load shedding; they must be able to generate
themselves if their capacity permit.

Page: 33
So, we are trying to open up the market. We have opened it
enough so that even small producers can come so that we can
try to cushion and save our economy. Yes, we agree that load
shedding has a lot of disruptions in our economy, but with
these new interventions that we are bringing through the
Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, I think we are
putting a cushion and assisting the economy to sustain itself
going forward. Thank you very much.
Question 4:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. The President
has established the Presidential Task Team on Military
Veterans in order to ensure that, amongst others, there is
urgent and continuous engagement with the community of
military veterans in order to resolve their grievances. The
Presidential Task Team has since November 2020 held extensive
consultations with different military veterans’ associations.
Flowing these consultations, it became evident that a
multifaceted approach that brings different spheres of
government to collaborate in accelerating the delivery of
benefits to military veterans was necessary. This would ensure
that we sufficiently address the grievances of our military

Page: 34
In advancing this holistic and integrated approach, the work
streams drawn from a cross-section of government departments
and provinces are seized with the tasks of resolving issues
that have been raised by the military veterans. Among other
key issues the work covers the improvement of socioeconomic
conditions such as education, housing, employment,
institutional support, heritage, legislative review as well as
pension and benefits of military veterans.
As reported by the President to Parliament on the 25 November
2021, significant progress has been made by respective
technical work streams designated to focus on specific
challenges that were raised. More specifically, the pension
and benefits work stream, is currently finalising the pension
policy that considers inadequacies that have been identified
in the Military Pensions Act, Act 84 of 1976.
In addition, discussions between the Department of Military
Veterans and the National Treasury about the provisioning of
military pension as provided for by the current legislation
are at an advanced stage. A draft actuarial report which is
required to support the proposed changes to the pension policy
will soon be presented to the executive authorities for

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In relation to the proposed Military Veterans Amendment Bill,
the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans has taken an
approach that emphasises the importance of an extensive
definition of a military veteran, the qualifying criteria for
beneficiaries and the role and existence of the SA National
Military Veterans Association as a body that manages the
affairs of military veterans. The Department of Military
Veterans is currently in a process of ensuring that all inputs
of stakeholders are incorporated into the Bill. Furthermore,
as of March this year, the department has also started working
with the government technical advisory centre in preparation
for the costing of the implementation of the Bill.
Once all required processes like the socioeconomic impact
assessment system report and certification by the Office of
the Chief State Law Adviser are complete, the Bill will then
be presented to the Cabinet system for approval so that we can
solicit public comments by the third quarter of this year.
Thank you very much.
Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy
President, it is very much encouraging to hear the initiatives
which are being undertaken by our government in a multifaceted
manner to seriously address the challenges faced by the

Page: 36
military veterans. The concern, however is that of time. Quite
a number of military veterans are at an advanced age and have
to enjoy these benefits in their lifetime. My question is,
how will the hon Deputy President ensure that these important
interventions you have just mentioned are implemented speedily
by all spheres of government to resolve the challenges facing
military veterans? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Well, currently
there are support services that are being implemented which
are prescribed by the current Act that we seek to amend. By
that I am trying to say that there is no vacuum. The military
veterans’ dependents are receiving education, their dependants
are receiving support in terms of our health care system and
the military veterans are receiving housing as we speak. We
are working together with provinces and some provinces have
gone ahead in supporting military veterans in terms of
building bigger houses. What we seek to do should not be at
the behest of individual provinces. It should be something
that is prescribed in the Act to say military veterans are
going to get this, this, this and that. That is why the
Minister of Defence is in the process of amending the Act
which will be a lifelong situation in terms of the benefits
that must be received by military verbenas.

Page: 37
We are trying very hard to consult and to amend the Act. I am
sure with the pension. It is also going to be prescribed by
the Pension Act so that military veterans can enjoy their
pensions, whether statutory or nonstatutory veterans. Thank
you very much.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank toy very much, Speaker. Deputy
President, let’s be honest. Amendments to the Act alone will
not change the failures of the department, it will not fill
the vacant critical positions, not replace the unqualified,
incompetent and uncommitted staff of the department which are
the main causes of the plight of the military veterans. A
skills audit company was appointed, but they were paid before
the job was done. The state of our economy and the ever
decreasing budget is not merely enough for what the Act
allows. For all the expectations created by the Presidential
Task Team, what is being done by the task team to address
these challenges amongst many, and to ensure fair treatment of
all statutory and nonstatutory military veterans with the
respect they deserve as part of all these changes and
amendments? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Well, right from
the onset when we were appointed by the President, the first

Page: 38
problem that we encountered was the shortcomings in the
Department of the Military Veterans. When we looked at that
department there were a lot of vacancies. The capacity of the
department was not up to scratch. There was no head of
department. We have currently appointed the head of the
department. We are trying to fill certain positions, but
overall we are looking at the organisational design of the
Department of Military Veterans and whether this current
design is fit for the purpose that is designed for. There is a
work stream that is doing that job for us. They are going to
come with their own recommendation on how best to reshape the
organisational design so that it can serve military veterans.
That is one!
I don’t think we have increased the expectations of the
military veterans. I think they deserve to be supported by
their own government because of the role that they have played
in the development of the country. Yes, there are basic things
that must be given to the military veterans. They must have a
pension, whether they are those who are recognised as
statutory forces, your former Defence Force ... but we must
also know that there were those, like the uMkhonto weSizwe,
MK, who were not registered. They call them nonstatutory
forces. These disparities must be corrected so that all of

Page: 39
them can receive a pension. All their kids should be
supported. All of them must have a subsidised transport
because they are aging. They must also be supported in terms
of their health. That is going to happen. If we fail to look
after our military veterans, we will be failing as a country.
We are currently costing the Military Veterans Bill. There are
discussions between the Minister Defence and the National
Treasury to look at the affordability of all the proposals
that we want to incorporate in the Bill. This is a positive
step. Of course we have a selection. There is a work stream
that looks at who is a military veteran, especially those from
the nonstatutory forces. You can hear that there is noise here
and there, but the work is proceeding and finally all of them
will be recognised for the contribution that they have played.
So, this is opening a new chapter in trying to formalise
services that are given to military veterans. I think it was a
good idea to create the Department of Military Veterans. It
must be supported. Thank you very much.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Thank you, Speaker. Deputy President, when
the integration process of the former soldiers of the
liberation movement was completed in 2001, it was reported
that for the 4 143 names appeared on the collective

Page: 40
nonstatutory force were certified personnel registered. Of
this number 15 805 were integrated into the Defence Force,
9 771 were demobilised and 13 107 were neither integrated nor
demobilised. The question is, does the government know what
has since happened to those who were neither integrated nor
demobilised? What are the risks that these abandoned soldiers
pose to the country’s security and rising rates of violent
crimes? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. I think those who
were not demobilised, those who were not integrated, the
respective political formations know these cadres - they know
them. In the case of the MK they know them, but we don’t want
to assume. That is why we have opened up this verification
process for them to come so that they can be verified and be
registered formerly so that they can access these benefits.
That’s the process that we are taking. As much as we know
them, but we don’t want to be conclusive. That is why we have
set up this task team, this work stream to verify them so that
going forward we are quite certain that we are supporting the
right people. Thank very much.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Speaker,
the MK, Azanian People's Liberation Army, Apla, Azanian

Page: 41
National Liberation Army, Azanla, and other combatants joined
the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, but reach retirement age
too quick to save for a house. The Defence Force has large
tracks of land all over the country that can be allocated to
them even if it is just 300 square meters. We hear you are
talking about many things we need to do to address their
plight. Housing must not be excluded. The Navy in Simon's Town
has done so. It has identified the tracks of land that it is
going to need in the next 20 to 30 years and they are busy
arranging that the land be given to former combatants like I
mentioned. After Al Jama-ah had raised the matter with the
Minister of Defence in Parliament, will you, Deputy President,
identify other land that is available to fast-track the
availability of land for the military veterans?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Well, we have the
work stream that looks at the socioeconomic status of our
veterans - that means the support that they must get in order
to sustain a very good livelihood. In that work stream there
is a commitment from the side of government, especially the
Department of Agriculture, to avail land for military veterans
to teal and produce and sell their produce for their own
livelihood. That commitment had been made and that work stream
is there. We said to the military veterans that let them come

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forward. They will be assisted to put business plans for them
to try to enter the farming business. But most of them are too
old to really engage on active farming. Some of them require
their pension, some of them need the support of their siblings
and their dependents and some of them just need a house. It
will depend from those military veterans that will step
forward and say I can still do this and I can still do that.
We will be talking to them and we are talking to them directly
= all of them; all associations. Thank you very much.
Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we must reiterate that the
Moral Regeneration Movement remains a critical platform to
galvanise our society to advance the promotion of positive
values and ethical conduct. These positive values empower us
to confront deep-seated challenges of moral decay within our
communities, including in our public service.
This outlook is further underscored by the Auditor-General
when announcing the Municipal Audit Outcomes of the 2019-20
financial year. In that announcement, the Auditor-General
pointed out that provincial leadership needs to work together
with municipalities and focus on ensuring that political

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leadership sets the tone of ethical and courageous leadership,
service-orientation, good governance and accountability.
We, therefore, support the Auditor-General’s call by
encouraging Members of Parliament, Members of Provincial
Legislatures, Municipal Councillors to drive the desired
change, especially in the local spheres of our government.
This extends to political and administrative leaders in the
executive branch of government to effectively play its part in
ensuring accountability in government spending and to
inculcate a culture of ethical and accountable leadership in
the service of our people.
To this end, the National School of Government has since
introduced a training programme that will equip public
officials including Municipal Councillors with the required
skills and competencies to make ethical decisions. The
programme is also aimed at equipping these officials to
develop organisational integrity, prevent fraud and combat
corruption in the public sector.
This is in line with the ongoing work of the Moral
Regeneration Movement to implement its Ethical Leadership

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Programme for public office-bearers, which includes the
induction of newly-elected Municipal Councillors.
To further augment the work of the Moral Regeneration
Movement, the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, in partnership with South African
Local Government Association, SALGA, is implementing a project
on ethical leadership in municipalities which is called Local
Government Ethical Leadership Initiative.
The aim of the project is to develop a Code for Ethical
Governance for municipalities which will have a similar
standing as the King Code on Corporate Governance in the
private sector. This is in line with one of the focus areas of
the Local Government Anti-Corruption Strategy calling for
national dialogue on ethical leadership in local government.
This project is ongoing project and is aimed at producing a
Code of Ethical Governance for our Municipalities.
The Moral Regeneration Movement will continue to engage local
and district municipalities to incorporate their
anticorruption strategies into the Integrated Development
Plans for implementation and sustainability support. Thank you
very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

Page: 45
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Deputy President, thank you for listing the
success of such collaboration and we welcome any progress
government has made in this regard. However, to ensure a
better public service to the people of this country we must
understand the weaknesses so that there may be wider
collaboration between all stakeholders.
Take us into your confidence, Deputy President, so that we may
all work together in achieving one goal of promoting moral
values within our public sector.
What are some of the difficulties that government is
experiencing with the Department of CoGTA when reshaping the
public sphere and what specifically are some of the root
causes of these problems within local government? Thank you,
hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, there are foreign
tendencies that have crept in over time in our government
system and those tendencies are now seeking to threaten the
moral standing of our nation. Corruption has become a problem
and you can only look at corruption in our public institutions
and forget to look at this corruption that is within the

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If you have a good nation, a good society, you will have a
limited prevalence of these social ills in our public
institutions. Therefore, it is important for all of us, as
much as we try to assist our spheres of government, whether
local, provincial, national, but remember that those people
that are employed there come from communities; communities
that are affected by all these social ills.
So, the point that I’m driving at is that as much as we want
to seek to correct these problems, we must attend to the
family as a basic unit; a unit that a society is built upon.
It is only at home where a child is taught to behave in an
ethical way, it is only at home that a child is taught to live
amongst society members, to respect. Now, all that it’s an
indication that our family unit is no longer strong as we
expected it. These children, these young people that are
working in our institutions are from families, if they were
well-brought up they would frown at corruption, they were
going to frown at maladministration.
Therefore, this is a societal challenge, it needs all of us to
stand up and deal with it. This is the same as gender-based
violence, racism, sexism. These are social ills that must be

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dealt with, not by specific people but by all of us. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
Mr B M HADEBE: Hon Deputy President, indeed there is a saying
that ‘charity begins at home’. As such I couldn’t agree more
with you with what you have just said.
The institution of traditional leadership has a critical role
to play on moral regeneration through entrenchment of cultural
value system of ubuntu.
I would like to get an understanding: How will this
institution of traditional leadership strengthen its
participation and contribution on moral regeneration through
movement of cultural values? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are talking to
traditional leaders, we have a standing formal arrangement
that has been supported by the President, identified a few
Ministers to really engage with traditional leaders.
They have their own challenges, that in the case that from the
communities where they come from, there are bigger problems.
Firstly, the availability of land, where they stay. All their

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communities, especially the traditional communities, are not
productively engaged in farming, whilst they have land that is
in the custody of these traditional leaders.
Land is being invaded, there are those people that are
advocating land invasion, which is incorrect, undermining the
leadership of our traditional leaders ... [Interjections.]
okay ... thank you very much for that correction, it’s land
occupation [Interjections.] yes. There are those who are
advocating for land occupation [Laughter.] ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... which is unlawful [Interjections.]
Secondly, the House of Traditional Leaders, part of the
grievances that they have put across is that government is not
supporting the house, they are not being recognised, there are
a number of problems that are affecting the institution
So, we have committed ourselves to work with them, but we want
to put traditional and KhoiSan leaders at the centre of our
moral regeneration movement. We want to utilise traditional

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leaders to inculcate the traditional cultures, which kept
communities for so long together.
We are all coming from traditional communities and we were
taught certain cultures, to live together, to respect one
another. This is what we want to achieve with traditional
leaders, working with them, but also to fight all the social
ills today, that all of us are now looking upon police to come
and deal with these problems that can be dealt with by the
community itself, by the society itself.
So, yes, this partnership that we are forging with traditional
leaders, in the process we are going to resolve their problems
but we want to take them back to their communities so that
they are respected and they continue to inculcate the good
cultures that must prevail in any community, in any society.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr C BRINK: Deputy President, to be honest I don’t think we
can blame bad parenting for the tide of corruption in local
government and neither will training seminars help to fix this
problem. There is a breakdown of the rule of law.

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Now, last week the Head of the National Prosecuting Authority,
NPA, appeared before the CoGTA Portfolio Committee and she
admitted that very little progress is been made on prosecuting
cases of serious municipal corruption despite billions in
irregular expenditure in the past two decades; only a fraction
of the people involved have been convicted of criminal
financial misconduct.
Even if the NPA was well-resourced, which we know it isn’t,
what we need is assistance of an independent body.
So, will the Deputy president support the DA’s proposal of an
investigative and prosecutorial body, protected by the
Constitution, to do the job that the Scorpions used to do?
Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well, the question is
appreciated but I don’t think when we are faced with a
problem, all the time we create new structures; that’s not a
good way of ... I mean, we are committing ourselves further
and further, and all those structures will need money.
So, instead, we should support the existing structures,
empower them [Interjections.] they do work [Interjections.]

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From where we are standing as government, when we went through
the COVID-19 we created the fusion centre and we realised all
the institutions that are meant to deal corruption were
collaborating and we went through. Some of the people that
were identified in those Personal Protective Equipment, PPE,
corruption scandal are brought to book. [Interjections.] I
mean, all those people that have been identified and they are
being followed. [Interjections.]
No, I’m trying to say when we have a problem let’s avoid
creating more and more structures.
I’m confident that the capability of our institutions can deal
with these problems, with our assistance.
It is not only the public sector that is corrupt, the public
sector is being corrupted by the private sector, and the
private sector and some people [Interjections.] everywhere
where there is a corrupt public servant there is a corruptee
in the private sector.
So, as much as we are looking at corruption within the public
sector, we must also look at corruption in the private sector.
[Applause.] Thank you very much.

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Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, in August last year CoGTA
reported to the portfolio committee that 16 municipalities
were considered stable in the country while 163 were under
financial duress and 108 had unfunded gadgets.
Under these conditions, Deputy President, it is not possible
for these municipalities to deliver any form of services to
the citizens, who, in most circumstances are the poor.
What structural changes does government intend to make to
salvage the situation at the local sphere of government in the
country? And do these include changing the funding mechanism
to make rural municipalities more financially stable? Thank
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, municipalities can be
supported financially through their equitable share but that
is not sustainable. [Interjections.]
What is the role of a municipality? The role of a municipality
is to deliver services at the cost. If they deliver water, the
consumers pay for the water. [Interjections.] If they deliver
electricity, the consumers pay. Now, our municipalities do not
collect the necessary revenue, and even if they collect the

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necessary revenue, there’s a disjuncture. Revenue that must go
to the maintenance of the infrastructure, that revenue goes to
the payment of salaries; and we have an ageing infrastructure,
there’s water leakage, ageing electricity infrastructure.
There is mismatch in local government.
That is why we are requesting provincial government to assist
and support municipalities, in terms of making land available,
put services on that land so that municipalities can sell the
stands, can be able to put metres and bill. [Interjections.]
I’m trying to say a municipality is designed to sell services
and sustain itself. It must sustain itself. Now, it should be
preoccupied by increasing its revenue base by ensuring that
they allow more and more residents to come, there must be
incentives that are created in the municipalities for people
to pay, which our municipalities are not doing ...
[Interjections.] They cannot, therefore, survive completely
from the equitable share.
With the equitable share, there are grants that are given to
municipalities meant specifically for infrastructure, water
infrastructure, electricity infrastructure, and even those

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grants are being diverted to salaries; it’s unfortunate. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Question 6:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela niyeke le nto eniyenzayo.
Can you be orderly? Go ahead, Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I was expecting a follow
up question. Oh, the next question.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, Question 6.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The last question. Thank
you. I was expecting a follow up question. Thank you very
much, Deputy Speaker, as of 28 March 2022, we have
administered 33,5 million COVID-19 vaccines to 20,9 million
individuals including 19,35 million adults, as well as
1,55 million children aged 12 to 17 years. This translates to
48,6% of adults having received at least one dose of the
COVID-19 vaccines.

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The coverage is not equal across all ages, with more than 68%
of people 60 years of age and above having been vaccinated,
compared with only 35% in those between the age of 18 and 34
Whilst reaching unvaccinated older people and providing
ongoing protection to this group through provision of booster
doses remain a priority, increasing coverage in younger
cohorts especially in 18 to 34 years old, is also key to
increase coverage at the population level.
This strategy, which is protecting those most vulnerable and
increasing overall population coverage, is important if the
effects of any future waves are to be mitigated especially
given the easing of restrictions as announced by the President
on 22 March 2022.
It is critical that more people are vaccinated in order to
reduce the number of infections, especially the number of
hospitalisations and deaths associated with COVID-19
infections. This will also help a great deal to reduce the
impact of any future waves.

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The poor demand for and uptake of vaccination remains the
largest barrier to increasing vaccination coverage. However,
we are encouraged by efforts of a number of sectors of our
society that have implemented policies and programmes that are
aimed at increasing the demand for and access to vaccination.
Moreover, surveys as indicated by Council for Scientific and
Industrial Research, CSIR, have shown that many unvaccinated
South Africans are not opposed to vaccination, and are willing
to be vaccinated.
In this regard, we are addressing identified structural
barriers like bringing vaccines closer to the people in order
to address costs of getting to and from vaccination sites for
those wanting to vaccinate. We do hope that more people will
step forward and vaccinate so that we move towards full
normalcy, and open the economy to reverse the losses caused by
the impact of the coronavirus.
On the issues of workplace vaccine mandates, workplaces
especially those with large numbers of employees have actively
played a role in providing vaccination to employees as well as
in encouraging workers to vaccinate. We will continue to

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encourage employers to develop and implement policies that
promote the uptake of vaccines within workplaces.
The regulations recently published by the Minister of Co-
operative Governance and Traditional Affairs provides an
overarching framework that guides various sectors to promote
vaccination as part of incentives to participate in specific
gatherings and sporting activities. All these protocols are
intended to persuade people to vaccinate in order to contain
the spread of COVID-19 infections. Thank you very much, Deputy
Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms B N DLULANE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thanks to the
Deputy President, we welcome the lowering of restrictions by
government as this will enable social and economic activities
to further strengthen economic recovery.
As you have already answered what I wanted to ask on the
structural barriers, which you have just indicated that 48%
instead of 70% ... as government is putting structures that we
must achieve.
Over the past two years, coronavirus has been mutating into
different variants which were more deadly than the current

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dominant Omicron variant. Also, due to government’s intentions
to lift the National State of Disaster as soon as the process
of public comments on the National Health Act regulation is
May I ask this question: What are the possible interventions
if we are to face another deadly variant after the lifting of
the National State of Disaster Act? I thank you, Deputy
Deputy Speaker, yes, I think we have made an assessment as
government and the Department of Health, likewise, and based
on that assessment, we have identified some key areas that
will need strengthening going forward so that we are prepared
for any other wave. We are mindful that we might face another
wave and are doing everything possible to get ourselves ready.
We can only be assisted by our people by continuing to take
the vaccine because it is proven that vaccines can always
assist us from getting seriously ill, being hospitalised or
even die. As much as we can something to prepare ourselves,
the best preparation is by an individual who must present
themselves to be vaccinated. That must happen.

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We are confident that the amount of people that have presented
themselves for vaccination have created a necessary base of
immunity going forward. We would look different from when we
were struck by the first wave. We are now facing the fifth
wave and a number of people have been vaccinated, so the
effect won’t be the same.
We are still encouraging people to vaccinate and we are
correct that some people are not opposed to vaccination but
they can’t afford to travel to where vaccination sites are
located. That has been proven in our outreach programme, last
week, in the Northern Cape. More than 200 people vaccinated in
a space of two hours because we came with the facilities and
stations to them. A number of people screened for TB and HIV
and Aids. It is possible that when we take these services
closer to the people, people respond positively. People are
not vehemently opposed to vaccinations. Thank you very much.
Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you, Deputy Speake, and good afternoon,
Deputy President. Deputy President, in terms of the draft
health regulations states:
15A. (1) A person who –

Page: 60
has been confirmed as having contracted a
notifiable medical condition or
is suspected of having contracted a notifiable
medical condition may not refuse ...
... prophylaxis or treatment. Currently, the only prophylaxis
available to COVID-19 is the vaccine. Does this mean that once
approved, South Africans could be forced to get the vaccines
in such cases?
In your capacity, as the chairperson of the ministerial
committee, do these regulations contradict the President’s
previous announcements that no person would be forced to get a
I am one person that 100% supports vaccines and I and my
family members have been vaccinated. It should be one’s
personal choice.
Deputy President, just a word of caution, should these
draconian health regulations be approved, they have the
ability to keep South Africans under lockdown indefinitely.
This is in itself a very dangerous situation in terms of the
freedom of South Africans and civil liberties. I thank you.

Page: 61
Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s the Deputy President who must answer,
please, hon members.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... as government, we
are consistent. There will be no deviation from the
announcement made by the President. Even from these health
regulations, we are still not forcing anyone to vaccinate but
we are persuading people to vaccinate because it is a good
thing to do.
Some people are coming forward, some can’t because they can’t
reach our vaccination sites. We are doing everything in our
power to reach our people. In that process, we are not forcing
anyone. We are sitting with a number of people here and some
are not vaccinated, but we aren’t forcing them. As we speak
every day about vaccination, we are persuading.
Nothing has changed. We are not contradicting ourselves. We
are still relying on the individuals to see the correctness of
going out and vaccinate. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Page: 62
Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and good afternoon,
Deputy President. Deputy President, a portion of citizens have
elected to not accept vaccines. This places those who are
vaccinated at a risk but those who have not. I would like to
know what measures are in place at all government institutions
and public spaces such as schools, universities and stadiums
to protect those who have been fully vaccinated against
variants from those who have not? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, as
government, we think that the health regulations that we are
putting forward will continue to help us going forward to
manage the spread of the virus. We still insist on wearing
masks when we are inside buildings, on a minimum distance of a
metre, and on washing hands.
Some of the minimum regulations that are presented by Health
are going to remain post the disaster regulations. We think
people are going to adhere to these regulations so that all of
us can behave very responsibly and save one another. One thing
that we are not going to do is to force people to go and
vaccinate. We think we will be crossing the red line. All we
can do is to encourage our people to go and vaccinate.

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It is like when one person is ill, the choice for that person
to present themselves to a health facility is theirs. You may
decide not present yourself to a health facility – I have in
the past decided to present myself to a health facility
although very far because I was ill. I don’t need anyone to
push me. The choice lies with an individual. An individual
must be persuaded and must be shown the benefits of
vaccination. Thank you very much.
Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, in light of
university students that have been declined in some
institutions and some universities that to implemented or
wants mandatory vaccination policies. The University of Free
State issued a statement saying that they are waiting for
directions from government and none has been given so far.
The FFPlus is against any violation of human rights and as
such, it is against mandatory vaccination policies. Government
is on record stating that vaccines won’t be mandatory. In view
of your request to respect an individual’s right to choose any
hospital of their choice which was your answer in the previous
follow up questions ... In light of government’s intention to
end the State of Disaster, what will government do to ensure

Page: 64
institutions do not enforce mandatory vaccinations? Thank you,
Deputy Speaker.
think government’ stance is very clear. It won’t change even
if you can repeat the question many times, the stance is
clear. We are not going to force anyone to vaccinate but we
are going to persuade people because we still think that
vaccination is an individual choice. An individual must be
persuaded to see the benefits of taking vaccines. I have
persuaded some individuals and they eventually ended up taking
the vaccine. I have seen it. Persuasion assist because some
people are avoiding vaccination because of lack of information
and knowledge. As much as you give them knowledge and explain,
they eventually take the vaccine. I don’t think people should
be forced to vaccinate outside their will. Thank you very
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that concludes the reply to
questions. Thank you, Deputy President, much appreciated.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that concludes the replies to
questions. Thank you Deputy President, much appreciated. Hon
members, the second item on the order paper is the statement

Page: 65
by the Minister of Finance on emergency interventions that
will be taken by the National Treasury to mitigate the sharp
increases of fuel prices. I now recognise the hon Minister.
kindly check if the Minister is on the virtual platform, he
was supposed to be here physically? Can I quickly check?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, okay. In the mean time we will
... ntate Godongwane, o hokae Morena? Tloho o tlo bua le rona
He was given 5 o’clock? Sorry, let’s try and get him out of
wherever he is please. Tell him you were so efficient today he
can’t believe it.
Order hon members. Hon members pardon me; I just want to
correct something. I made a mistake yesterday and I want to
correct it today. Please join me in wishing hon Judy

Page: 66
Tshabalala a happy belated birthday, and all of those whose
birthday it is today and this week, happy birthday.
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Point of order Chair?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): We are unprotected, there’s a
member who’s not wearing a mask in the House.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please wear your mask. No hon
members, let the presiding officer do that. You’ve raised it,
please keep quiet and do what you’re supposed to do. Thank you
very much.
Hon member, we propose that we proceed. Hopefully hon
Magwanishe is around. Yes, okay.
Ha ke o bone ntate.

Page: 67
No wait a minute. Follow the procedure, just wait for me. I
just wanted to make sure that you are around.
Mr G MAGWANISHE: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker, hon
Deputy President, hon members...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe please put on your mask.
Mr G MAGWANISHE: Interim report on cannabis for Private
Purposes Bill in the judgement, the Constitutional Court
declared the following legislative provisions unconstitutional
as they amount to an impermissible limitation of the rights to
They are section 4 (b)and section 5 (b)of the Drugs and Drugs
Trafficking Act 140 of 1992 read with part three of Schedule 2
of that Act and section 22A (9) (a-i) of the Medicine and
Related Substance Act read with Schedule 7 of the Government
Notice R509 of 2003.

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The court suspended the order of invalidity for 24 months for
Parliament to correct the unconstitutional defect. Although
the 24 months have been exceeded, there is no deb in law as
the court provided a read in provision that ensures that an
adult person will not be guilty of a criminal offence if they
use, possess or cultivate cannabis for personal consumption in
On the 1st of September 2020, the Cannabis for Private
Purposes Bill was introduced and referred to the committee for
consideration and report. The committee was briefed on the
contents of the Bill on the 4th of September 2020 and the Bill
was then published for public comments.
The committee was also briefed by the Department of
Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and the
Department of Trade and Industry and Competition on the drug
cannabis master plan which contains a strategy to
industrialise and commercialise cannabis.
The committee received 55 written submissions and held public
hearings on the 31st of August 2021 and on the 1st and 2nd
September 2021. Flowing from the public submission and its

Page: 69
pursuant deliberations, the committee has identified certain
subjects that the introduced Bill does not address.
Therefore, in terms of Rule 286(4) of the NA rules, the
committee seeks the Assembly’s permission to extend the
subject of the Bill to in addition to provide for commercial
activities in respect of recreational cannabis; provide for
cultivation, possession and supply of cannabis plant and
cannabis by organisations for religious and cultural purposes
on behalf of their members and respect the right to privacy of
an adult person to use cannabis for palliation or medication.
I request that this report be considered by the House’s
favouring. Thank you.
Agreed to.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is the hon Minister present? We return to
the second item on the order paper which is the statement by
the Minister Finance on emergency interventions.

Page: 70
Manje usithatha kuphi isibindi sokukhuluma nje ungakhonjwanga?
[Ubuwelewele.] Huh? Wangixubha ngidla.
That will be taken by the National Treasury to mitigate the
sharp increases in fuel prices.
(Statement by the Minister of Finance)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, on 23 February this
year, I tabled the 2022-23 Budget before this House. In it, I
announced that there would be no increases to the general fuel
levy on petrol and diesel. I also indicated that there would
be no increase to the Road Accident Fund, RAF, levy for the
2022-23 fiscal year.
These measures were taken despite our constrained fiscal
position. Our aim, in particular, was to protect poor
households – who spend the majority of their income on food
and transport – against record-high increases in fuel prices.

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Our commitment in the 2022 Budget was to strike a delicate
balance between keeping money in the pockets of our people,
amid the economic shock of the COVID-19 pandemic, while at the
same time striving to restore the health of our public
finances. By refraining from including an inflationary
increase to the fuel levy and the Road Accident Fund levy, we
managed to provide much-needed relief to South Africans, to
the value of R3.5 billion. In addition, I indicated at the
time of the Budget that Minister Mantashe and I had agreed to
review all aspects of the fuel price regulation.
Let me emphasise again that this was in recognition of the
increasing cost of living for all South Africans, as well as
the need to do what we can within our limited resources to
support the economic recovery.
However, the day after I tabled the Budget, we woke up to the
news of the escalation in the conflict between Russia and
Ukraine. The conflict will almost certainly intensify some of
the risks we had already highlighted in the Budget Review
2022, specifically the risk of continued supply disruptions
and higher inflation.

Page: 72
A few weeks ago, during my address to this House, I spelled
out some of these risks and the likely impact that the
conflict may have on our economy and revenue proposals. A big
concern for the South African economy is imported inflation,
especially the direct impact on fuel and food prices. We are
equally concerned about the secondary effects on the rest of
the economy, and the overall impact on the local and global
economic recovery that was beginning to take root.
While the most recent data released by Statistics SA showed a
slight upside in the growth of gross domestic product when
compared with National Treasury’s estimates for 2021, the
growth outlook going forward is much less promising and
subject to new, emerging risks. Most notable of these risks is
the Russia-Ukraine conflict.
In addition, the re-emergence of the COVID-19 virus in China,
and the consequent lockdowns which are increasing constraints
on global supply chains, are also of concern.
Since the start of the conflict, there has already been sharp
increases in the prices of crude oil. This has had a direct
impact on fuel prices in our country. In March of this year,
the petrol price rose to R21,60 per litre for 95 unleaded

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petrol in the inland region, while diesel prices rose to
R19,55 per litre.
Of concern is that the Minister of Mineral Resources and
Energy has advised that fuel prices in April are likely to
increase even further.
Hon members, to mitigate the impact of these escalating fuel
prices, I hereby table the following proposal, which will be
included in the 2022 Rates and Monetary Amount and Amendment
of Revenue Laws Bill, for consideration by this House:
• A temporary reduction of the general fuel levy by R1,50
per litre, for the period 6 April 2022 to 31 May 2022.
This will reduce the levy for petrol from R3,85 per litre
to R2,35 per litre. The levy on diesel will be reduced
from R3,70 per litre to R2,20 per litre. These amounts
exclude other levies such as the Road Accident Fund levy
and the carbon fuel levy.
The intention of the temporary reduction of the general fuel
levy is to support a phasing in the fuel price increases that

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we are expecting in the short term. This will go some way
towards assisting South Africans to adjust to the new reality.
The proposed reduction of the general fuel levy, for a period
of two months, will not require adjustments to the annual
national Budget, as the proposal is not expected to have an
impact on the fiscal framework.
The proposed reduction of the general fuel levy will be funded
by a liquidation of a portion of the strategic crude oil
reserves. In this instance, the revenue foregone by the
reduction in the levies will be recouped through a sale of
strategic crude oil reserves, which are held by the Strategic
Fuel Fund, which is a subsidiary of the Central Energy Fund.
The sale would be required to raise around R6 billion. The
sale will be authorised by the Minister of Mineral Resources
and Energy, and the funds will be deposited into the
Equalisation Fund at the Central Energy Fund. The Minister of
Finance and the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy have
the authority to approve the release of funds from the
Equalisation Fund into the National Revenue Fund in terms of
the Central Energy Fund Act, Act No 38 of 1977.

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The fuel levy reduction will be temporary. A broader package
of relief measures will be explored, and they will come into
effect after the expiry of the two-month fuel levy reduction.
In this regard, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy
proposes the following package of measures to be introduced
after the expiry of the temporary measures, from Wednesday,
1 June 2022:
• A reduction in the Basic Fuel Price of 3c per litre, in
line with the recommendations of the review done by the
Department of Mineral Resources and Energy.
• The termination of the Demand Side Management Levy of 10c
per litre particularly in the Gauteng province.
• The introduction of a price cap on 93 octane petrol,
following from the previous Department of Mineral
Resources and Energy proposal and consultation. This
means that retailers can sell below the regulated prices.
• The termination of the practice of publishing guidance by
the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy on diesel
prices to promote greater competition.
• The Regulatory Accounting System, including the retail
margin, wholesale margin and secondary storage and
distribution margins will be reviewed to assess whether

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adjustments can be made to lower the margins over the
medium term. Interventions will be considered by the
Department of Mineral Resources and Energy to reduce the
price pressure for illuminating paraffin over the medium
We are doing all of these things in line with our overall
commitment to keeping money in the pockets of South Africans
during these trying times, while at the same time restoring
the health of our public finances.
Minister Mantashe and I have released a joint statement which
provides further details on this matter. Thank you.
Dr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, for a number of years the
question hanging over our heads has been: What happens when
government runs out of money?
Government doesn’t have any money of its own, it all belongs
to the people, and year after year, Scopa hears how billions
of rand have been irregularly spent, wastefully spent, or
simply stolen. And there is never any consequence. Nobody is
held to account and nobody goes to jail.

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Yesterday, the DA proposed a motion of no confidence in the
President’s Cabinet ... [Interjections.] ... precisely because
our economy has been mismanaged to the point of collapse,
where we are unable to attract investment capital because
there is no confidence, unemployment levels hit a record 35%
in the last quarter ... [Interjections.]
Ms C V KING: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.
Ms C V KING: Please, can the heckling be limited to a hearable
sound because we can’t hear. It’s drowning the speaker at the
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Sustained. Hon members, keep your
voices low.
Dr D T GEORGE: ... and youth unemployment is at 65%.
Poverty continues to ruin the lives and future potential of
more and more South Africans, every day. We face a cost of
living crisis with skyrocketing food prices driven largely,
but not only by the upward spiral in the fuel price.

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The fuel price has been too high for too long because of
government’s economic mismanagement. And this has crowded out
opportunities for economic growth that we will never get back
The fuel price consists of four elements: the basic fuel
price; taxes and levies; retail and wholesale margins and
storage and distribution costs. The price of crude oil and the
exchange rate impacts heavily on the price.
We don’t have much control over the price of crude oil
although we certainly made an enormous mistake when the ANC-
led government chose the side of Russia in its illegal war
against Ukraine. The war has impacted negatively on the price
of crude oil and when countries such as South Africa do not
add value in bringing the war to an end, we actually do pay
the price of more expensive fuel.
The ANC-led government’s disgraceful behaviour at the United
Nations just served to make life more difficult for everyone
in South Africa and just served to drive more people into

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If government was actually concerned about the oil price and
how it impacted on all South Africans, it would join the rest
of the world in doing everything possible to stop the War.
Although the dollar-rand exchange rate is subject to market
vagaries, it is possible to make our currency more attractive
on the markets by ensuring that South Africa is an attractive
investment destination. In that way, foreign investors in
particular would want to purchase rands for investment and
increase its value.
The DA has previously called on government to reduce the fuel
levy and that could result in a reduction in the petrol price
in the region of 20%. This would take pressure off rising food
and transport prices and bring immediate relief to the poor.
The petrol price in South Africa is higher than it is in
Swaziland, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania, Namibia and Kenya
because the fuel levy in South Africa is too high. It is too
high because government relies heavily on it to fund its
mismanagement of the public finances, at 6% of revenue. Bad
government is making all South Africans poorer.
Social grants are set to increase by 4,5% in April. But
electricity and fuel prices are set to go up by more than

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double that in April. Electricity prices by 9,6% and fuel
prices by 11%. Food prices have increased by 5,7% in the past
year according to Stats SA and that will gather momentum this
Cutting the fuel levy will create fiscal pressure that can be
alleviated in many ways. The root cause of our dire fiscal
situation is bad policy, incompetence and corruption.
[Interjections.] There are much better ways to deal with these
than taxing the poor.
South Africa can no longer delay tackling our problems at
their root. We need to grow tax revenue and jobs by rapidly
reforming our economy to be open and competitive. We need to
make better use of tax revenue by appointing public officials
on merit and jailing corrupt officials. The benefits would
accrue rapidly.
The Minister’s proposal to liquidate a portion of the
strategic crude oil reserves for very short term relief is
high risk and reckless. The purpose of holding a reserve is to
ensure that South Africa does not run out of fuel during an
emergency situation that is not easy to foresee. It was not
long ago that an attempt was made to sell our strategic oil

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reserves under the guise of a ‘stock rotation’ that was
nothing more than a corrupt attempt to enrich a connected few.
We need far more detail on what this transaction would entail
and how the reserves will be replenished, and at what price.
If we are to take a short-term view, and not make the
structural reforms that would eliminate or reduce the high
fuel tax, then we should look at funding this short-term
intervention with additional revenue that will be received as
a result of the uptick in commodity prices that will
temporarily increase tax revenue. We do have that temporary
fiscal space.
We welcomed President Ramaphosa’s acknowledgement in his state
of the nation address that business must be the job creator in
South Africa. The incapable state is certainly unable to do
that. We welcomed the Minister’s statements at his budget
speech of what he intends to do about the state-owned
enterprises and managing the public sector wage bill.
Structural reform is the only way to grow our economy and
avoid the significant risks that the Minister is now
incurring. We are all agreed that the fuel price is too high
and that immediate relief is needed. We just differ on how.

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We support the suspension of the general fuel levy. Selling
the strategic reserves is a desperate move for a government
that has run out of ideas.
It is possible to reduce the fuel tax immediately without
selling our reserves, it just requires political will to do
what will need to be done anyway.
We all know what happens when government runs out of money –
it is forced to change its behaviour. If not, the people will
remove you. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no.
Hela, butleng pele ke a le kopa hle! Tjhe, tjhe, wena o tlo se
rwala semonkolo. [Ditsheho.] Tswela pele, mme.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, besides the sale of strategic
crude oil reserves, as the EFF, we are even more shocked that
we are called here to listen to what was supposed to be an
intervention and yet, all we’ve heard was nothing but

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ambiguities and insinuations besides the obvious. The sale of
strategic crude oil reserves is indeed for emergencies.
The miscalculation by the Minister of Finance also shows that
there is a general misunderstanding of the economic challenges
facing workers and the poor. This is because of Mr Cyril
Ramaphosa and the collective incompetent Cabinet who continue
to mismanage the economy of this country.
The reality is that the sale of strategic crude oil reserves
must not excite because we are led by people who always see
crisis and pain of our people as a way to loot. The first
thing they ask themselves is: How are we going to eat instead
of how are we going to help our people?
The price of petrol has drastically gone up since Mr Ramaphosa
became President and the truth is that it has started well
before Russia’s military operations in Ukraine. But it is not
only the price of petrol that has gone up. Everything
essential and necessary for survival is now more expensive
than it was before Mr Ramaphosa as the President.
His new dawn is a new dawn of high petrol prices. A new dawn
of higher electricity prices. A new dawn of higher food

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prices. A new dawn of higher transportation prices. When Mr
Ramaphosa was elected President in February 2018, a litre of
petrol was only R14. Today, as we stand here, Deputy Speaker,
a litre of petrol is now nearing a record of R22 per litre.
In 2018, a household needed just over R2 000 to afford a food
basket. Today, the amount of money a household needs to afford
decent food has nearly doubled to more than R4 000. Because of
the corruption and incompetence of the ruling party which
allowed the thievery of railway tracks and brought the railway
system to its knees, workers spend more on public transport
than they should. The consequences of the failed new dawn.
When you increase the price of petrol, the price of everything
that has to do with transportation also increases. The whole
crisis is made worse by the theft of 10 million barrels of the
country’s strategic oil reserves that were stolen in 2015 for
way less than the going market rate through schemes of
corruption. More than six years later, Deputy Speaker, no one
has been held accountable. The then Minister Tina Joemat-
Pettersson has instead been rewarded.
Now, what is to be done? Firstly, any effort to revive South
Africa’s petrol structure and interventions to lower the price

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of petrol cannot be done by the Treasury, Minister of Finance.
It requires an independent and objective body that is not
obsessed with austerity and zigzagging neoliberal policies
even when evidence shows failures.
An institution such as Stats SA will be best placed to carry
out this task and it must be linked with reviewing the whole
Cataloguing in Publication, CIP data. This is why we cannot
continue to defund credible and independent institutions that
should conduct empirical data collection and analysis to
inform policy decision-making and rely on the Reserve Bank
that is also obsessed with neoliberal zigzagging.
Secondly, Deputy Speaker, we need to finalise the prosecution
of criminals who stole the oil from the strategic fuel fund
and reserve the transaction to get our oil back. It looks like
the people responsible for prosecution on this matter are also
receiving cash to stall the matter.
Thirdly, we must develop a South Africa’s fuel sovereignty
plan that will interconnect research and exploration into
sources of fuel owned by the state beneficiation and
industrial policy. It was done with Sasol and it can be done

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Lastly, Deputy Speaker, we must do away with all the
legislation that is chipping away at the Mineral and Petroleum
Resources Development Act that has laid a strong foundation
for the transfer of ownership to black people, if it
implemented properly and beneficiation is done properly.
Mr A H M PAPO: Point of order.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: We know that the only reason why the Gas
Amendment Bill and ... [Interjections.] ... I was waiting for
the Deputy Speaker. Can you chill?
Mr A H M PAPO: Deputy Speaker, you have made a ruling in the
past that members of this House must not cast aspersions on
public servants who are not part of this House and are unable
to respond for themselves. [Interjections.] The member just
said those who are supposed to prosecute on this matter of the
sale are actually given money to stall. [Interjections.] And
we know that the NPA is responsible for prosecuting people.
[Interjections.] The member has just cast aspersions on the
NPA that they are actually given money to stall the
prosecution. The member is not actually bringing a substantive
motion ... [Interjections.] ... and the public servants ...
[Interjections.] ... will not be.

Page: 87
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we will rule on this. Proceed.
Yes, we’ll rule on this. We want to do a considered ruling on
the matter.
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chief, I’m dealing with matters of national
Ms O M C MAOTWE: I’m giving direction to this country which is
directionless. Deputy Speaker, we know that the only reason
for the Gas Amendment Bill and the Upstream Petroleum
Resources Development Bill are to make it easy for Total in
Mossel Bay and Shell in the Karoo to loot our resources
unabated. If we don’t see a drop in the price of petrol
immediately, Deputy Speaker, this country will face a revolt
like it has never seen before. Thank you very much. Papo, you
must behave. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, hon members, and Minister, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no, you can’t do that! No,
no, no!

Page: 88
Mr N SINGH: Whilst any measure to reduce the impact of
increasing fuel price is welcome. Many in this House -
political parties - and outside of this House, have been
making some calls. I think there needs to be clarity, hon
Minister, on what you just said from the podium. When I read
the draft statement, I understand that it was a draft
statement that was circulated as Chief Whip’s – it doesn’t
make mention of the R1,50.
What I am trying to understand for South Africans is, on 6
April, when there is a price adjustment to fuel – we know it
happens on the first Wednesday of every month: What would the
next impact be on the persons who are filling up fuel?
Because, yes, R1,50 would be deducted from the fuel levy.
Yet, there are going to be things beyond your control and our
control, which is a price of crude oil at that time – which in
turn is also going to be in the rand-dollar exchange. So, the
net in fact may be on 6 April that instead of somebody paying
R21,50, which would have been the price, you will pay R20,00.
However, it could have increased from what it was.
So, Minister, can you please explain so that South Africans
know: What is going to happen to them on 6 April 2022? Also,

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hon Minster, we know that it is largely what happened in
Ukraine, between Ukraine and Russia, that has cause this
increase in price. We know it is Covid-19 which caused this.
Whatever you want to call it, you can call it! I am speaking
now! But, what we have done is that we have indeed found the
seed of a hidden opportunity in this adversity, and there is
always hope that we can find the seed.
However, having said that, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, you
mentioned the Road Accident Fund, and the fact that you did
not announce increases to the RAF levy. Well, that may be well
and good, but I think it is well known if one reads the media
– I attended the meeting of the Standing Committee on Auditor-
General, last week: That the Road Accident Fund has taken the
Auditor-General to court because they don’t like the opinion
that the Auditor-General has expressed on the financial
The reason for that is that the Road Accident Fund wants to
introduce its own accounting principles which are against what
is the normal generally accepted accounting principles, GAAP.
Now, that is not acceptable! They want to hide almost
R300 billion in a contingent liability, by saying there is
only R27 billion on liability.

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Hon Minister, you have got to look at this and have got to
look at the fact that an Accountant-General has got to be
appointed urgently, and that you should intervene, together
with the Auditor-General, in this matter, because we cannot
allow the RAF to do things that they want to do on their own
against our principles.
The other issue, hon Minister, in looking at the 1 June 2022
proposal, I hope that the public will be allowed to make some
input, because at some stage, many years ago, all public
transport operators – buses and taxi operators – were given an
opportunity for a rebate on fuel. I remember it very clearly
because I come from that industry.
We need to introduce that rebate on fuel for those who provide
public transport so that taxi owners and bus owners would
reduce their fares, and that would help the public out there.
Lastly, hon Deputy Speaker and Minister, the Fuel Retailers’
Association has been making submissions – a number of
submission - on margins. I hope that these will be taken very
seriously by yourself and the Minister of Minerals and Energy
as you move forward towards your 1 June proposals. For now, we

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welcome any relief, but it should not be robbing Peter to pay
Paul. [Time expired.] Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Deputy Chair, everybody knows that South
African fuel is highly taxed. That is why petrol manufactured
in South Africa or even imported through our ports is more
expensive than the same fuel in neighbouring countries. It is
easy to tax fuel, as people and businesses rather save on
other expenses than substantially cutting on fuel.
Untaxed petrol is harder to find than, let's say, untaxed
cigarettes. The tax is also easy to administer, as there are a
small number of figurative turnpikes where all fuel has to
flow through and where tax can be collected.
However, this taxation of fuel is contentious. It is not
progressive, meaning the burden rests equally on rich and
poor, if not heavier on the poor. It also inhibits economic
growth, as it is detrimental to the competitiveness of South
African businesses.
The FF-Plus, among others, has urged the government to revisit
the price structure of liquid fuels in South Africa. Not only
the taxes, but also the fact that prices are calculated as if

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all fuel is imported in its final form - which is clearly not
the case, and exaggerates the influence of foreign exchange
We should keep in mind that the most important reason for
rising fuel prices over the past two decades is not changes in
the price of crude oil, but depreciation of the rand. The rand
depreciates, because more people want to sell rands, than buy
rands. When the economy is not regarded as a bread of fixed
size which should be redistributed, but as one which can feed
everyone if it is allowed to grow, the rand will be able to
buy more barrels of oil.
Unfortunately, currently, the economy is managed to be
uncompetitive. Today, the Ministers of Energy and Finance
announced a partial tax vacation for two months, during which
time the whole structure will be rethought. This is to be
welcomed and hopefully the new structure will be an
There are indeed several potential problems in the whole fuel
industry. The country's refineries, except that of Sasol, are
senior citizens. Those which have not burnt down or been shut
down, are about to be shut down. There might be a temptation

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to charge a new levy to finance the building of a new
During the current transport transition to electric and even
hydrogen powered transport, this might not be a good long-term
investment of public money. To sell a part of the strategic
reserve, is indeed a risky venture. It is literally like
having a dam to be used during droughts, but one never knows
whether one is at the end of a short drought, or at the
beginning of a protracted one.
In other words, we may expect that the war in Eastern Europe
will not amount to permanent fuel deficits. But, the
structural changes in transport, favouring renewable energy
sources over fossil fuels is less immediate, but can be
expected to be permanent. Nevertheless, the expression urges
us never to let a good crisis go wasted, and we should
acknowledge that government heeded this advice. I thank you!
Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP welcomes today’s joint
statement about the temporary reduction in the general fuel
levies, pending a package of additional measures from 1 June
20222. We welcome the fact of the reduction of R1,50, hon
Minister. It is not an insignificant amount. When one

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considers that escalating fuel prices have put considerable
pressure on the cost of transport, food and other goods and
The consumers are suffering due to these increases, as well as
possible electricity and interest increases. This announcement
should be welcomed. The ACDP raised this issue with both
President Ramaphosa and you as well, Minister of Finance,
during the question time.
It is important to note that since 2012, taxes in relation to
levies on the fuel have on average more than doubled, as the
share of the fuel price. They account for 34% of the fuel
price. A search on the fuel price regulations have indicated
that a combination of regulatory amendments can reduce the
fuel price significantly, and that we trust is what would
occur when one looks at the additional package of measures.
When one also considers the amendments to the international
component of the basic fuel price, which were proposed in 2018
by the Department of Mineral Resources, but sadly never
implemented. It is also to be commended. Minister, if I
understood your statement correctly: That is now to be
implemented; and that is also to be supported.

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Whilst one supports these aspects, I think the issue of
concern relates to: The funding of the R6 billion that is
required; of course, how much are the strategic oil reserve is
to be sold; at what price; and what risk does that bring? Is
this possibly a case of selling part of the family silver to
deal with an interim issue?
I appreciate, hon Minister, you mentioned the fiscal framework
and that one can’t touch that. However, as we suggested in the
past, is it not possible to consider the expected commodity
price tax windfall that is already pencilled in that
R71 billion, and which is expected to be far more? Would that
not be a wise aspect as well to look at?
While we appreciate the reduction, from the ACDP’s
perspective, I do believe that Parliament will look very
carefully at the sale of the portion of the oil reserves and
whether this introduces any risk, given the fact that we do
not have refined oil reserves. So, let us exercise our
oversight from our perspective, but thank you, hon Minister,
for this welcomed announcement.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker ...

Page: 96
... andisayi kuva ngani ukuba mandithethe isiNgesi kuba
andivotelwa nini.
Indeed, the war between Russia and Ukraine has placed pressure
on the domestic fuel prices. Naturally this conflict has
caused surprised shock to the global economy and we are not
immune to that.
Minister, you have become in the short space of time the
father Christmas probably because ...
... unxityiswa kudadewethu uMamTshawe.
I think you must take credit for that. The decision to
temporarily reduce the general fuel levy by R1,50 cents is
indeed welcome as it is going to provide the South African
motorists and the economy in general with the much needed
relief at this very important period. We also agree with you
when you saying that; time need to be set aside to actually
have a discussion about the comprehensive vast measures that

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can be introduced to try and make sure that we provide further
cushions to the South African economy and ordinary people.
You will recall that one of the issues that we actually
advocated for here, very passionately, is the issue of value
added tax. We do not agree with you when you say that if you
were to reduce 1% the fiscus will lose about R30 billion but
you are not able to tell us as to how much revenue we are
going to lose by reducing corporate income tax from 28% to 27%
and what the effect of previous increases were on the South
African economy. That empirical study is required, Mr
But I think the other issue in broad terms is that we continue
to provide cushions to South African economy but businesses
don’t fall in line. For example, we also run the risk where
price increases you made at the beginning of the year, people
might not actually reduce their prices even though we are
trying to mitigate that effect on the South African economy. I
am talking about the cost of transport, for example, you know
people had already increased prices.
One of the things that the Competition Commission, for
example, did during Covid they were vigilant around people who

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were inflating prices unnecessarily. I think we need to be
vigilant even during these periods so that we don’t provide a
cushion for the public but it doesn’t reach the public, the
intended beneficiaries, it actually ends up with people making
more money.
The other issue is that we continue to do these things, we
gave people loan guarantees schemes. For example, extended
loans to the public sector but the unemployment rate did not
improve even after people got bailouts from us. It’s a problem
in general.
Even with the R32,8 billion that we gave to companies which
was a bailout during the social unrest in KwaZulu-Natal and
Gauteng, did they make sure that our people didn’t lose jobs
after we spent taxpayer’s money during those days? So, we need
to access the effectiveness of the measures that we put in
place. We are obviously concern about the sale of strategic
socioeconomic ...
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Liphelile ixesha.

Page: 99
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Kutheni, kodwa ibonakalisa imizuzu emine
nje? Kwekhu, hayi madoda.
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ye madoda, awusakwazi ukufunda ngoku?
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Andisakwazi ukufunda? [Kwahlekwa.]
Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, the
skyrocketing fuel prices in South Africa are driving
inflation, high cost-of-living and strangling the economic
growth. The direct fuel consumers and those who do not
purchase retail fuel are under enormous pressure as the
rapidly increase in the cost of fuel is increasing the cost of
commuting, increasing the cost of food and driving inflation.
And of course, inflation has managed by raising interest
rates, adding additional burdens to those who have loans,
bonds and other debt. Regulation of the fuel price has a long
history in South Africa and these regulatory powers should be
used to be rapidly responsive to local and international
market dynamics.
So, it is appropriate that the Minister has intervened to
release this pressure valve and the temporary relief is a

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welcome intervention. We welcome every cent that can be saved
at the fuel pump. But what we need is a sustainable solution
which doesn’t require us to fill up our tanks every week. It
will be much better if we could safe households hundreds of
rand a week by building a functioning public transport
Deputy Speaker, the composition of the fuel price at the pump
requires a fundamental overhaul so that the cost of fuel is
not another factor holding back economic growth and generating
jobs for all South Africans. And our government must use its
powers to restructure the regulated components being the
margins and the taxes and the levies. So, in this regard, we
welcome the announcement that the Minister of Mineral
Resources and Energy will be bringing substantial changes to
the composition and structure of the fuel price.
The propose reduction of the basic fuel levy by three cents a
litre and the termination of the 10 cents per litre Demand
Side Management Levy (DSML) are also welcome steps towards
this restructuring.

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The propose removal of the price cap and the move to a
competitive retail fuel pricing regime will be a significant
Deputy Speaker, South Africa’s 15-million-barrels of strategic
oil reserves are meant to safeguard us from an energy crisis
and to protect our economy. So, leveraging these oil reserves
to provide temporary relief does create some serious risk of
devastating consequences if the disposal of these reserves are
not reversed by a highly discipline replenishment programme
that is actually implemented.
So finally, Deputy Speaker, we welcome the relief been offered
to South African consumers and economy and we call on our
government to rapidly pursue the restructuring of the
regulatory component of the fuel price. And the role of the
increase in South Africa refinement of crude oil should also
be part of the restructuring process since local refinery has
the opportunity to create downstream job opportunities. Thank
you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Herron. Hon
members, I just wish to read you a Rule – at every beginning
of the sitting, the serving officer who start the proceedings

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make reference to safety in the House and makes that request
for us to also keep our masks on and sit in our allocated
places for purposes of that safety. Here is the Rule 71, if
the presiding officer is of the opinion that a member is
deliberately contravening a provision of these Rules or that a
member is disregarding the authority of the Chair or that a
member’s conduct is grossly disorderly, she or he may order
the member to leave the Chamber immediately for the remainder
of the day’s sitting. I am reading this Rule so that we don’t
have to go back to reading it. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker
and through you Minister, let me tell you about the reality on
the ground. The latest report - electricity cost is going up
by 9,5%, water by 6,5%, sanitation by 6,5%, refuse by 5% and
property rates by 5,2%. There is collusion between the big
five supermarkets in the country and you will find that the
price of foodstuff has been rocketed. The cost on air fares
have increased.
Now whilst we welcome the relief that you are talking about, I
think what is important to note is that the Road Accident Fund
is not an asset, it is actually a liability. Maybe it’s time
to dispose of this function. Let it be handled by the private

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sector and it includes some kind of insurance through the
licensing and that will go a long way.
Deputy Speaker, we are losing this country approximately
R300 billion. Let me say it again, R300 billion and very
little or nothing has been done to put measures in place to
try and prevent this. And I still cannot understand why we are
allowing it to go on.
Now, one of my concerns is that Minister as you rightfully
alluded to the fact that there will be a disruption in the
continued supply of crude oil. Now if you dispose of some of
this crude oil and the disruption continues, then what is the
risks to us here if we do not get adequate supply of crude oil
in the country. Added to that Minister, there is another
problem. Many of these fuel companies are leaving South Africa
for the neighbouring countries, which means lots of jobs are
going to be lost. But more importantly, it means that we are
going to be importing more fuel and that is going to push up
the cost once again.
But what is not clear here, Deputy Speaker, through you, is
the relief that we are going to get from 6 April, is that
relief after the increase that might be coming on 6 April or

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is that relief of R1,50 cents from the current price that is
going to come into effect on 6 April, because we know that the
first Wednesday of each month is when we adjust the pricing.
So, that’s what we need to know.
I just want to repeat this particular one, Deputy Speaker, 14
children died of malnutrition in Nelson Mandela Bay, 216
suffered from severe acute malnutrition, 16 000 were left
without aid. So, the problem is a lot bigger than what we are
talking about, Minister. We need to look at putting in
measures. We have a more productive society, create more jobs
... [Time expired.]
Mr S LUZIPO: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and
Deputy Ministers, hon members and everyone who is with us
today. Firstly, thank you Madiba. You understood the challenge
that we are faced with as a nation.
Over the past two years or so, our country has witnessed an
exponential increase in fuel prices. It’s not new. It didn’t
start yesterday. Notwithstanding all these factors, the high
price of crude oil has been one of the reasons behind the high
fuel prices. Since the beginning of this year, this has been
one of the tasks that we in the committee have been seized

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with. What complicated matters was the conflict between Russia
and the Ukraine, which imposes external factors on the
challenges that we have inherently been confronted with.
Therefore, countries all over the world have started to
introduce mitigating measures against the fuel prices. It is
not only unique to the South African context. Among some of
these countries is South Korea which introduced a 20% cut in
the fuel tax as early as November 2021 which was extended to
March 2022. Poland introduced a fuel tax cut to 8% from 23%.
Vietnam ... 50% cut on the environmental levy. Therefore, it
is not something that is unique. We are doing exactly what
other countries resort to when confronted by challenges, which
is to protect the interest of the nation.
As the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources, we have been
very concerned about the knock-on effects on South African
citizens, both rich and poor. We will deal with the issue of
... because some people must go for dialectical lessons to
understand that at times the relationship between the poor and
the rich does exist. It is antagonistic but at the same time
it can be co-operative. But obviously, if you commit class
collaboration you will never understand some of these issues.

Page: 106
In its engagement, the committee has looked at what the
mitigating measures that could be taken into consideration
are. We have had engagements with stakeholders. Firstly, with
the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, as well as the
Automobile Association. Recently, we had an engagement with
all the role-players and organisations in the petroleum
industry, including National Treasury, as well as the Council
for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, which has been
doing research on these matters.
There are two energy sources, which I think the hon Minister
talked to, and I don’t think there is contestation. I think we
must welcome the issue of a levy reprieve as far as liquid
fuel, gas as well as ... which ... We think it is important to
take consideration of VAT as far as illuminating paraffin is
Very quickly, I think we must even welcome the reduction in
the general levy. Whether it is calculated differently, it
will make a difference. Hon Minister, the issue that we think
we must have a discussion on is the issue of the Road Accident
Fund, RAF. As a committee, we are of the view that it does not
necessarily have to be removed as part of the tax regime but
with new developments in technology it might be dislocated in

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the area where it currently is. For example, if you agree
today that you have electronic vehicles but they are not
affected as far as the RAF is concerned ... but for an
individual who just owns a generator ... will be affected by a
deduction on the basis of the RAF but ... can’t claim if there
is an incident based on issues of liquid paraffin or the
generator. Those are the things that we think we need to zoom
in on, without saying ... It’s a different story for someone
who goes to a bowser and puts a car ... and puts fuel ... and
sees the difference of less than R2,18 on a 50 litre diesel
... That individual will see a difference, in as much as it
might be cushioned somewhere else. So, those are the things
that we think a constructive engagement must be able to look
at ... better solutions that must be found. As I said, we most
definitely welcome the reduction as far as the general fuel
levy is concerned.
However, let me quickly address a certain matter here. Not
every revolutionary phrase is revolutionary. The first thing I
think we must address ... you can’t take ... and there is no
doubt in South Africa ... We should not hide that one. Part of
our problem is that we have to deal with the issue of
consequence management in the Public Service. There is no
doubt about it. However, you cannot even ... How do you take

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someone when you have not done what you are supposed to do?
You first win the case. What is not reported here is that the
sale of the strategic stock went to court. Government won the
case. The strategic stock is back where it belongs. That is
where the stock is. Then you can start to ask the question,
when was that case won? It was only around April/May last
year. There was an issue about the hedging fees which was a
dispute between government and those who bought it. You can
only then start prosecution, based on that because there is
evidence on your side. Even if it is not done by the
executive, we are Members of Parliament. We must make it a
point that those who are responsible for the illegal sale of
the strategic stock face the full might of the law. We can’t
abdicate our responsibility and give it to the executive. It’s
our duty as Members of Parliament to hold that executive to
Now, one issue I want to say ... that issue that I want to say
... Sometimes I listen to members. I listen to members. There
is something ... some ... they call themselves Fanonists. This
is what Frantz Fanon says: “There are too many idiots in this
world. And having said it, I have the burden of proving it.”

Page: 109
Now, if you understand that inherently the mere fact that you
are a motive force for change actually means that you’re a
motive force against another resisting force. We are not in a
... [Inaudible.] Now those who have the luxury of time ... We
have a duty not just to interpret the world but to change it
and that’s precisely ... that you don’t change the world under
conditions of your own choice. You change the conditions of
our people on the basis of the inherent suffering that they
have been put under for so many years.
With those words, thank you very much, hon Minister. You are
on the correct path and we think this is what South Africa
wants. All patriots will appreciate ... there is a difference
between an intervention and an absolute work that is
performed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thanks
to the hon members for their contributions by. Let me just
start with hon Singh.
I think on the 6 April the price of petrol will increase to
R3,85. It will increase to R3,85. [Interjections.] No, wait.
Wait. The hon member wants to know what he is going to be
paying on that day. That’s what the price will be. However,

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with this R1,50 intervention you will pay R2,35 on 6 April.
[Interjections.] Huh? {Interjections.] No, no, no, I’m saying
that of the R3,85 you will get a reprieve of R1,50. Less R1,50
of that increase, okay? That’s the first thing I want to say.
The second thing I want to say is the following. In so far as
the RAF is concerned, let me state clearly that to my
knowledge, as far as National Treasury ... they are on the
same side in terms of the interpretation with the Auditor-
General. I just want to make that clear. In terms of the audit
outcomes. They disagree with the system used by the RAF. That
is as far as I know.
The second thing we need to talk about ... which we need to
come back ... I’m in a discussion with my colleagues, the
Minister of Social Development and others, to restate the
debate about a comprehensive social security system. What are
the key elements of such a system? First is social insurance.
We have a whole range of social insurance packages all over
the place, whether it is the unemployment fund, whether it is
the RAF, whether it’s anything else. We are putting in another
social insurance in the form of the National Health Insurance,
NHI, and all of those things. We need to look at that.

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The second component is social assistance, which the Minister
is seized with. The third component of ... [Inaudible.] ... is
active labour market policies. So the RAF’s future must be
located within that debate, and that debate may mean that it
may not ... necessary ... its funding be ... [Inaudible.] ...
the fuel fund ... with the fuel price. Alright? It may mean
that, as part of that debate.
The third issue I want to raise ... when we discuss matters of
national interest and national importance, I think we need to
raise the level of debate. We need to raise the level of
debate. Let me just say ... my own personal view ... all of
these ... [Inaudible.] ... on this side, I don’t regard you as
enemies. I regard you as fellow South Africans, but political
opponents with different viewpoints to mine. But, fellow South
Africans and patriots like me, okay? However, when we discuss
a matter of national interest, it is important that we rise to
a different level of debate. Alright?
Let me just give an example. Let me just give an example. ...
an hon member to say ... South Africans are watching on TV. We
display our own ignorance. South Africans are watching on TV.
You say, since Ramaphosa took over ... Then, as if the price
of fuel ... You display your own ignorance, because you do not

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understand what the economic drivers behind the increase of
petrol are. [Inaudible.] ... we expect a certain modicum of
respect for Members of Parliament and a certain level of
debate because we should know what the economic drivers behind
this are. It’s not an individual ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: 0rder, hon members! Hon members! Hon
members, listen! Hon members, listen to the reply. You were
given an opportunity to speak.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: So, my appeal ... Coming to the hon
members of the UDM and the ACDP. These members are making a
number of contributions. They say they have research. We would
welcome ideas on these matters. No-one has the monopoly of
knowledge. Hon member from the UDM says that we need some
empirical evidence. We would like to engage with that. The
ACDP said they have some research. By all means. We don’t
claim to have the monopoly of knowledge but let’s raise the
level of debate. Let’s raise the level of debate so that all
of us engage constructively about reaching national consensus
on issues of national importance.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I am raising these issues because we are
facing enormous challenges, and those challenges require that

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we rise to the occasion and come up with important answers.
That is the challenge to the hon members on this side of the
... on my side. We would welcome ideas. [Interjections.] So
with those few ideas I just want to thank you for your
contribution, but for God’s sake ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members? Hon members? Sorry, hon
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: But for God’s sake let’s raise ... We
would like constructive ideas ... like constructive ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister? Hon Minister, just one
second. Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... what you are
doing is not appropriate. The Minister is replying to a
debate. All of us in the House want to hear it. You are
preventing us from hearing the debate. And we have protected
you from the same thing by members in the House. You are
repeating that. We request you not to do that.
[Interjections.] It’s clearly disruptive. You can’t all be
screaming ... almost all of you. [Interjections.] You can’t do
what you are doing. It’s out of order. [Interjections.] Go
ahead, hon Minister. What are you rising on, hon member?

Page: 114
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Budgeting is about making strategic
Ms O M C MAOTWE: I’m rising on a point of order, Deputy
Speaker. Minister, I have asked to speak.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: It’s about making strategic ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry. Hon Minister? Hon Minister ...
Ms O M C MAOTWE: The Deputy Speaker has recognised me to
speak. You can say ... [Inaudible.] ... however you want! The
Deputy Speaker has agreed that I speak.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, speak to me!
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Okay.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Tell your members to shut up!
[Interjections.] Hon members? Hon members?

Page: 115
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: EFF, you are out of order! EFF, you
are out of order! [Interjections.] No, you are out of order,
people of the EFF! You can’t be insulting our leaders.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t be screaming.
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: You can’t be insulting our leaders!
You can’t! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I gave one member a chance to speak. You
speak ... [Interjections.]
Mr X N MSIMANGO: Those ... must shut up! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t be screaming.
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: And you also can’t be insulting our
leaders, you people of the EFF. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Hon Minister, let’s
Ms N V MENTE: Yes, you can’t tell us to shut up. You must
withdraw it.

Page: 116
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s proceed, hon member.
Ms N V MENTE: We are not your children here. [Interjections.]
You are not going to come here and be emotional.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s proceed.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, what we must try
to do ...
Ms O M C MAOTWE: I have not spoken, Deputy Speaker. You
recognised me. I have not spoken. Deputy Speaker, you
recognised me. I have not spoken.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?
Ms O M C MAOTWE: Firstly, you must withdraw saying shut up.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms O M C MAOTWE: We are going to write a letter to your
superior to complain but I’m rising to say to the Minister,
it’s a fact that when Ramaphosa took office ... [Inaudible.]
... the petrol price was R14,00. {Inaudible.]

Page: 117
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s not a point of order.
That’s not a point of order. [Interjections.]
Mr X N MSIMANGO: No, she must sit down ... that member. That
is not a point of order. She must sit down.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s not a point of order.
[Inaudible.] ... you forget it. That’s not a point of order.
Go ahead, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker ...
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: It is a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What Rule ... {Inaudible.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. No,
don’t worry, you will make your flight. Just hold on. On a
point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? What’s your point of

Page: 118
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, you will recall that you
told us to shut up ... to everyone here in this House. That is
unparliamentary. We are going to take you to the Rules
Committee because that can’t happen.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: That can’t happen. You can’t tell Members
of Parliament to shut up. You yourself, as a Deputy Speaker,
must adhere to the Rules and keep yourself ... Be patient with
members. Stop this hotness. We know that you are rushing for
your flights. You will get it, man. Don’t worry.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member? Hon member, speak for
yourselves. Hon members, let’s proceed.
Mr B S YABO: Oh, but it can’t be masters of insults here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please proceed. We have
listened to you. We now wish to proceed.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, as I conclude,
the point I was raising is ... [Inaudible.] ... important in
matters of national importance that we try to win each other’s

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arguments through cogent arguments. I then said that some
members have made suggestions through empirical evidence and
some research. I am saying we would welcome that because we
don’t claim to have the monopoly on wisdom. We don’t claim to
have the monopoly on wisdom. However, as I conclude, part of
what we must ... and I said some of the things have risks.
When you take a decision it’s got risks and rewards. We are
taking that. A budget is also about trade-offs. While I would
also like to take the fuel levy out as much as I can, that is
going to require a phasing out. It can’t be on and on. As it
stands, the fuel levy provides us with R90 billion of the
total Budget. To simply take R9 billion off the system ... the
first target will be those programmes that are servicing the
poor, when the poor are actually in need of support in these
trying times. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 17:24.



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