Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 06 Dec 2019


No summary available.








Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNYQ4H6MTFo




The Council met at 09:34.



The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I notice and noted that the Chief Whip of the Majority Party in the National Assembly, the hon Pemmy Majodina is in the gallery. [Applause.]



This kind of support is critical and very important. Of course we do also note that there are two people there behind the Chief Whip.



Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery have agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice except the motion on the Order Paper.



Yes, hon member.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order. My point of order is: Today we see a lot of people here and we do not know who this people are. Is it not proper at least just to tell us who this people are? The House is full. We do not know who this people are and they are occupying seats here. I know you only introduce if people are coming from the ruling party, but we always see other parties coming but we are not told who is who.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Even in the New Year we should look at that. [Laughter.]



In the New Year we will look at that. So, there is a motion on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip.






(Draft Resolution)



The Chief Whip of the Council moved: That the Council resolved that Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the following bills, Adjustments



Appropriation Bill, Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill and Rates and Money Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill.



Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.











Moh T C MODISE: Modulasetilo, ke rata dumedisa maloko otlhe a a leng fa le baeng ba ba re etetseng gompieno.





Hon Chairperson, on 25 October the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries presented the subordination legislation to the select committee. As the committee we have discussed that the subordination legislation and we agreed upon it.



Hon Chairperson, the protection of wildlife animals and its conservation is policy guided of this democratic government and the policy framework was laid down in our Constitution. Wildlife is the nation’s heritage and our symbol of national pride. We embrace the fact that the Big Five attracts many international visitors to our national parks thus boosting our tourism industry.



However, hon Chairperson, the SA National Parks, SANParks, has reported that the status of African mammal population, since the 1970s has been on the decline.



We will all remember that rhino poaching is a national crime priority and government has taken co-operative measures in dealing with this challenge.



The illegal trade in rhino horn is a global concern with many NGOs doing work on wildlife protection and conservation campaigns against



this illegal activity. We have passed the National Environmental Management Biodiversity Act of 2004 and this Act provides that all subordinate legislation issued under the Act, which affects the provinces be submitted to the NCOP.



The legislative jurisdiction regarding the conservation and management of wildlife is shared between national and provincial governments a concurrent legislative function as mandated by the Constitution. The enforcement of National Environmental Management Biodiversity Act rests not only with national, but provincial and includes local government through inspectorate. There is a clear need to ensure that this inspectorate function be strengthened to ensure desirable success.



We welcome progress that has been made by the department in ensuring that rhino poaching and illegal trade curbed and we take note that a number of arrests and successful convictions of smugglers has been achieved. This has been made possible by an Integrated Strategic Management Approach implemented by the department through an intention known as Operations Rhino.



We welcome this progress and further note that the illegal trade in rhino horn is motivated by an increased demand of rhino horns



globally. This was one of the findings contained in the Report of the Committee of Inquiry appointed by the Ministry. The purpose of the committee of inquiry was to advise the department on the possibility of proposing legal international trade in rhino horns to the 17th Conference of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, Cites.



We note, hon Chairperson, are the key five areas requiring interventions and these includes: Security, community empowerment biological management and responsive legislative provisions that are effectively implemented and enforced; and rhino horn demand management.



The importance of advocacy, education and raising of awareness is very important and we welcome these initiatives as underpinning pillars in the combat of rhino poaching. Government has identified the importance of community involvement and participation in ensuring that we curb illegal trade in rhino horns. In order for us to ensure that optimal success in dealing with rhino poaching, all our provincial and local governments must ensure that they intensify efforts and initiatives around getting our people involved. This would mean that we have to ensure that rhino poaching activities are



reported to the SA Police Service and that educational programmes around the importance of wildlife conservation are thoroughly implemented in all our schools. This will require a co-operative effort involving all the stakeholders.



In considering this Report of the Select Committee on Land Reform, Environment, Mineral and Energy Resources, we note that the regulations on rhino trade under the National Environmental Management Biodiversity Act prescribes the issuing of permits in order to domestically trade in rhino horns. The issuing of permits is one of the other measures employed by government to ensure the reduction in illegal trade of rhino horns due to high domestic demand that feeds into the global demand for rhino horns. Given the fact that environmental management, including its protection and conservation, is concurrent constitutional function, we do not see this as an erosion of provincial legislatures to enact legislation relating to rhino poaching and conservation. What we seek to do as the two Houses of Parliament, especially this House, is to ensure that there is a well-co-ordinated legislative enactment and with national overseeing the overarching role. This, hon Chairperson, is paramount to ensuring that there is uniformity in terms of how we deal with illegal rhino horn trade.



This co-ordinated effort, not only does it require implementation of legislation, but requires greater collaboration with our neighbouring states and further ensure that our legislation is in line with international developments around rhino trading. This, admittedly, is not an easy task, but one that requires greater determination from all the stakeholders. We do not need to fight over challenges we face as provinces over the trade and illegal trading of rhino horns, but should step up and ensure that the ultimate goal of ensuring that there is an overall decline in demand for these most precious animals is realised and we conserve them for future posterity.



In conclusion, hon Chairperson, I table before you as this


House to consider, the report of the select committee for adoption and approval. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson and hon members of this august House, good morning. Hon Chairperson, the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans introduced the Hydrographic Bill in Parliament on 20 June 2018.



Hydrography and not hydrophobia is a branch of applied sciences which deals with the measurement and description of the physical features of oceans, seas, coastal areas, lakes and rivers. Since February 1995, South Africa is a signatory of the International Maritime Organization convention under the auspices of the United Nations.



This convention monitors and regulates safe navigation of ships and other modes of transport moving around the oceans or waterways of member states. As a signatory, we are required to adhere to the Safety of Life at Sea regulations and address the gap within our legal framework in relation to having a duly authorised hydrographic



office that will, as an authority of government, issue nautical charts or publications and meet the requirements of marine navigation.



The Bill aims to give legislative status to the office of the hydrographer — located within the South African Navy since 1954 — by establishing the hydrographic office and align South Afric’s domestic law with its international obligations to monitor maritime safety in terms of the United Nations International Maritime Convention.



The Objects of the Bill are thus provided for the establishment of the hydrographic office and appointment of the hydrographer; safety of navigation in the exclusive economic zone and the internal waters of the Republic; and ensure that hydrographic surveying is carried out in accordance with internationally accepted specifications and standards.



The Select Committee on Security and Justice advertised the Bill on electronic platforms from 5 February to 1 March 2019 and received no written submissions on the Bill. The committee also visited the hydrographic office on 3 December 2019. The committee observed the following during its visit:



The committee noted that Egypt and South Africa are the only fully functional hydrographic offices in Africa. Navigational Area 7, over which SA is responsible for accurate information and communication with maritime users, is one of the largest areas to survey and maintain operational competence. The hydrographic office is serviced by the SAS Protea, which is a 47 year old vessel that will be replaced in 2021-22. The hydrographer serves on numerous committees and subcommittees including the Southern African and islands hydrographic commission.



The decreasing budget allocations to the Department of Defence prevents the hydrographer from attending meetings both nationally and internationally, and this impacts negatively on our contribution to the regional and international developments in this area.



The hydrographic office is also the only training facility in the country and in Africa to train personnel in the fields required and the office is aiming to expand this to include youth development programmes. In light of the committee’s deliberations and interaction with the hydrographic office, the committee is satisfied that this Bill is important to ensure that South Africa is compliant with its international obligations, and that the Bill provides the



necessary legislative framework for the hydrographic office to be fully functional.



Hon Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and Justice recommends that the National Council of Provinces adopts the Bill without any amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.



Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.






Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, when in fact, people say malibongwe to me, I think it’s absolutely appropriate more than to other men, not because of my gender sensitivity, but because my name in Yunus, it’s gender-neutral. [Applause.] [Laughter.] So, my parents, Chairperson, as conservative as they were, were unintended very socially advance for their time, in 1956. For those of you in the EFF who think that



I’m 110 years old, that’s why I have mentioned the year I was born, 1956.



On the matter of the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, perhaps for the new members they have to know. Every year we’ve got to deal with these three Bills that come to us in the Finance committee and to the House. One of them is Rates and Monitory Amendment Bill, which deals basically with what the Minister said, when he said –excuse me, it’s he as you know since 1994, I hope to see a she as soon, and I’m sure we all agree. But for now it’s been a he until now, which is for 26 years, Chairperson – he said that, cigarettes are going up by so much, liquor is going up by so much, and so on and so on. comrade Moletsane from the EFF got very upset when he heard that liquor is going up and that cigarette is going up. [Laughter.]



Nobody cares more than the ANC cares because we are very disciplined. So, the Rates and Monitory Amendment Bill is very difficult to change because like everywhere in the world, you can’t announce these things and not implement them, because people run around and hoard cigarettes, liquor and whatever. So, that Bill is difficult to process. It’s all of these [Inaudible.] the section 75 Bills, so it’s difficult to process. But we have to hear what the public says, so that next time when the Minister wants to increase



the cost of the tax on liquor or cigarettes he might have taken to account what comrade Moletsane feels so strongly about.



Anyway, I’m teasing him, obviously. I don’t know whether he drinks and smokes, that is his right, it’s legal. But ultimately or obviously, government, the Department of Health in particular, is concerned about consequences for the country as a whole, its economy and its budget for what happens to people’s health, and also the lack of productivity that follows from that. When the Bill came to us, we advertised for public hearing. It’s unusual, but we did that. There were was a Section 75 Bill. So, we had then the Tax Bill that came to us ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Member, why are you rising?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, I am standing on a point of order. I hate to do this to hon Carrim, but I just want to bring it to your attention apparently. We believe in open democracy, but apparently there is a bit of an issue with the live stream, if it can just be looked into as well. The public are actually contacting me, they are desperate to know what our response is to hon Carrim’s – what can I call it? – his message, right now. They would like to know ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But what is the point of order?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: No, I’m being very serious. Ca the live stream be looked at, please?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order. Please proceed, hon member.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Okay. We are dealing with each of these Bills separately, but they are interrelated. That’s why I have dealt with the package at once. But I’m focusing specifically on the major Bill, which is the Taxation Laws Bill which can be amended. But because it’s 75 Bill, when they come to us from the National Assembly there’s a limited room. But we decided that when they enter the public participation room, we will have people here. So, we have these representations from the three organisations that made representations to us.



But the one that came to us to present oral submissions was of course on the Venture Capital Company, VCC, matters. I am going to deal with it very quickly. Let me read it, Chairperson because they are quite technical. Essentially what they came to say, these are investors mainly that, they want to continue to invest and get a tax incentive. To simplify and crudify it, for those who are interested,



they can find it in Announcements, Tablings and Committee, ATC, Reports.



They basically said that they want the tax incentive and that they are investing in areas of the economy which the government had intended by giving the tax incentive to, they will then finish in no time and fail to continue. National Treasury didn’t agree and said, what you are doing is not investing in the areas of the economy that are developmental in nature. Also, you are not doing enough to create space for small businesses. In fact, you are abusing the tax. They are given a figure of nine very well individuals which were able to get tax deductions of R690 million. They were not investing in areas of economy which needed it.



Yes, they were investing for example, in student accommodation. But there’s no proof that it wouldn’t have happened anyway, because while student accommodation is desperately needed, and while of course is part of our developmental concern, the profit margins on this student accommodation are phenomenal. I live near the university in Msunduzi and I can tell you, every time somebody rings my bell and asks if he can buy my house for well beyond its market value? So, there is no way I can sell it. But what they want to do



is break it down and build a full study building and then charge students.



For example, when I walked up and down the street of Msunduzi for a brief walk, Chairperson, I find out that they are charging R1900 for student sharing a room.         A place like Msunduzi has a much lower level of income and so on, compared to Cape Town. So, in fact, the tax incentive stated that, National Treasury is being abused and that they wanted it to be stopped. They reviewed it in 2021. But when they came to us, Chairperson, they were very impressing. They came with slide presentation and they really swept us off our feet as it were.



Treasury on the other hand, were fumbling. They didn’t present a simple, clear and comprehensive explanation for why section 12J Association as they called their investors, were not to be considered. But then we engaged further with Treasury, and they presented a very coherent agreement. Presumably, no party in this House is going to disagree with that agreement. At least, those who were in our committee won’t do that. They won’t say that tax is being abused, Chairperson.



In fact, currently, given our desperate need for revenue, it would be wrong for us to say to Treasury that they can allow them to continue for another two years and test it. What we did insist on is that, they must not come back to us until the two of them have met, which indeed they did on Monday. In fact, according to Treasury, the meeting was very fruitful. According to Treasury, they met on 2 December in the offices of section 12J, the industry association, and from the perspective of National Treasury, it was a constructive meeting and there were robust discussions.



The industry association stated that they appreciated hearing more details on the concerns of National Treasury and SA Revenue Services, SARS, and would like direction on which aspects of the incentive they should research to provide evidence on the potential impacts. They also said that National Treasury stated that they would carry out a survey next year, and complete a review of the incentive to inform the decision about whether the incentive is extended beyond the current sunset date of 30 June 2021. National Treasury, moreover, agreed to meet the association again in January 2020, for them to provide a presentation and to start engagements for the review process.



So, it’s our job as the NCOP committee to ensure that, when Treasury appears before us after January, we did actually meet them. Our committee secretary will ensure it and so will our Whip, comrade Mjadu, ensure that we do what we said we will actually do what we said we will do. Chairperson, we are very passionate about holding the executive to account. We ask them what they have done, when they have promised to do something. We also hold ourselves to account.



When I give report, I say that this and that has been done, then we fold our arms and feel good about it, because it’s a feel good thing. Now, Chairperson, we must actually hold ourselves to account. We said that we will check with Treasury and in the first quarter of next year, Chairperson, if we are serious about oversight, we will do what we said we are going to do. In some ways, Chairperson, we should be holding ourselves to oversight. It’s too many papers, too many resolutions since 1994 and we don’t follow up on them.



Finally, Chairperson, on the matter of processes ... [Interjections.] Look, no one is blaming you. You were in your nappies at that time, in 1994, right? So, no one is blaming you. I take responsibility and my generation my friend. So Chairperson, we have failed in 1994 ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: So, you acknowledge you must resign.



Mr Y I CARRIM: That’s fine, don’t be ages. Chairperson, to be ages is as bad as to be racist and sexist. So, don’t be ages. Now, I have been appointed by my party, and I’m not going anywhere until they decide. Now, let’s come to something very clear. You see, I am very pleased that the Chief Whip of the National Assembly is here, because Chairperson, these Bills comes to us. We are the only committee where, in the whole of this Parliament, the Finance committee, when it comes to tax Bills, they are actually done informally, voted on informally in the National Assembly and then the Minister introduces it in October with the Mid-Term Business Plan, MTBP, as the final Bill.



So, when it comes to the NCOP, we have no say when it’s processed on the other side in the National Assembly as the informal Bill. So, when it comes to us, it’s a fait accompli as it is. There is little we can do about it because to amend a tax law, in terms of the very Money Bills Acts that this Parliament passes, is extremely difficult and onerous and because Parliament at the end of the year in particular, has to rise around at this time in December. Therefore,



it is very hard to make an amendment because you need 14 days for the Minister to reply.



So, we made it clear in our report, the chairperson and myself are mandated to do this and we have started to speak to the Chairperson of the National Assembly Committee to bring the Bill at least two weeks before the MTBP. Secondly, I have spoken to Treasury last Saturday, to the Deputy Director-General that in fact, they must introduce the bill two weeks earlier. Otherwise, Chairperson, it begins through the motion. We can do nothing with the Bill. What is the point of bringing the public here for public hearing if you know that you will do nothing about the Bill? It’s a waste of our energy and time.



Parliament has two Houses and both Houses have the equal right to have effective oversight. The Chief Whip of the National Assembly needs to know that when I was on that side comrade Majodina, I didn’t think about all these things, and now that I’m here, like a typical politician, it says to me that the NCOP gets a raw deal, and that must stop Chairperson, under your guidance. Thank you very much.



Debate concluded.



Declarations of vote:


Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, please allow me to congratulate the committee on the work done on the three Bills, particularly on the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill where Hon Carrim said, we managed to get Treasury to sit down with stakeholders and consulted extensively. However, the reason for my declaration is a less pleasant one. The arrogance of the Treasury in our deliberations was distasteful and disgraceful in the extreme. To have a director- general advising the committee that since the National Assembly had already passed the Bill, he chose not to bring a compelling argument to the select committee undermines this House and the Constitution itself. To have a similar remark passed by his deputy director- general a few days later, stating that since the NA had already approved the Bill, they advised the stakeholder that there will be no changes – it’s a shocking reflection on the reputation of this House and the respect shown to our constitutional mandate.



Chair, the Treasury has been warned. If they return with a similar display of disdain, the committee will propose that this House return a Bill to the National Assembly in terms of section 75 (1)(a) paragraph 2 of the Constitution with our recommendations. This will trigger a revisiting of a Bill by the National Assembly in terms of



section 75 1(c). We cannot be the National Council of pointlessness that Hogarth pokes fun at.



Chair, it is my request that the leadership of this House convenes to discuss and agree the way forward urgently, on how we action section 77 and section 75 Bills, how they are processed and the reasons why the Constitution has given us the role that it has.

Chair, the wording of the Constitution makes it obvious that this House was not intended to merely be a rubber stamp. Let us not waste the time of this House, its committees’ and our stakeholders.



You and I took an oath, Mr Chair, together to uphold the Constitution. Now let us engage vigorously with section 75 Bills and do the work that we are not only mandated, but required to do in terms of the Constitution. Let us get this House working for all South Africans. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chair, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill seeks to amend the Personal Income Tax and savings to review tax treatment of the surviving spouse pension, review the tax treatment of bulk payments to former members of closed retirement funds. In terms of amending their general business taxes, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill addresses abusive arrangements aimed at avoiding the



antidividend stripping provisions; corrects anomalies arising from applying antivalue shifting rules and refines provisions around the special interest deduction for debt funded share acquisitions.



The tax proposal aimed in raising additional tax revenue to cover the shortfalls in the current financial year. Therefore the EFF is not supporting.



Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, the Chair of the Finance Committee has made it very clear actually. What the hon Ryder says he is repeating exactly the point that we have made. These acknowledgements have been made by the Treasury itself. The good thing is that within Treasury we have experts who understand the work that we are doing. However, there is a little bit of challenge from a point of view of the new officials who do not understand the role of the NCOP. We have said that on the basis of that acknowledgement, our Chairperson has gone further to speak to deputy director-general at the Treasury to take all these matters that we have raised into consideration so that there is no repetition of this. So, I am saying that what the hon Ryder said is actually a repetition of what the hon Carrim has already said. So from that perspective, there is nothing new that he said. [Interjections.] There was an absolute unanimity even at the



committee level about this. Therefore, I think the report must be accepted as presented by hon Carrim. Thank you. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed to voting on the question. Now I will request members to indicate their votes. Those who want to vote in favour, please raise up your hands. Those in favour are 37, those against are eight and those who abstain are zero.



Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.



Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution






Declaration of vote made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters.





Mnu Z MKIVA: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ndivumele ndithathe eli thuba njengoko sele etshilo umhlonitshwa uCarrim ukuba...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mkiva! Hon members, please, please, please... Let’s just allow the member to continue. Please proceed.



Mr Z MKIVA: Do you want my telephone number? [Laughter.] [Applause.] Let’s talk after the House sitting.





Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ndivumele ndithathe eli thuba ndiphefumle ngezicagothi nezicukujeje zalo mthetho ubekiweyo njengoko sele etshilo ugxa wam umhlonitshwa uCarrim ukuba le mithetho iyazalana kwaye iyasebenzisana.





Chairperson, the Select Committee on Finance considered the 2019 Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill which was formally introduced by the Minister of Finance on 3 October this year during the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement. This Bill compliments the draft Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill. South Africa’s tax policy seeks to support structural reform of the South African economy consistent with a long run growth employment creation and equitable distribution of income. It aims to promote investment and export expansion while enabling government to finance public services redistribution and development in an affordable and sustainable budget framework.



Tax policy aims to: ensure a sound and sustainable balance between government spending tax and borrowing requirements; improve domestic savings to support a higher level of investment and reduce the need to borrow outside the country or abroad; keep government consumption spending at an affordable level contributing to lower inflation and a sustainable balance of payment; support an export friendly trade and industrial strategy to improve South Africa’s competitiveness; ensure that pay increases within the public sector are market and productivity related and are physical sustainable; reduce the level of borrowing use to finance current spending; reduce the overall taxable and the share of the gross domestic product over time; and to reduce government consumption spending as a share of national income.



Government remains committed to a sound and stable fiscal policy, aimed at ensuring the sustainability of South African economic transformation promoting jobs and investment and ensuring that the public services reflect government priorities. The government’s committed to sound public finances and sustainable deficit has protected South Africa from the worst of the current international financial crisis and has contributed to the structural changes needed to strengthen the long run performance of the economy.



On a point of emphasis, Chairperson, section 77 of the Constitution requires all Money Bills to be considered in accordance with the procedure established by the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act of 2009. Section 11 of the Money Bill Act provides a procedure for passing Revenue Bill. It requires that the revenue rates be consistent with the fiscal framework consider: equity, efficiency, certainty and ease of collections; the composition of tax revenue regional and international tax fare and the impact on development investment, employment and economic growth. These are all essentials as President Cyril Ramaphosa highlighted critical elements to be implemented to rejuvenate the South African economy: Implementing growth enhancing economic reform such as broadband spectrum allocation; restructuring the electricity sector and regulation of the transport sector to lower prices; reprioritisation of the public spending to support job creation and the economic growth; and establishing an infrastructure front, addressing urgent matters in education and health, and investing in municipal social infrastructure improvement as well as investing in the infrastructure in rural communities of our country.



The journey to economic recovery will not be easy, but working together we can grow our economy. Getting our tax machine right presents a roadmap to maintaining the integrity of our public



finances whilst protecting social services. SA Revenue Services is creating the right environment for efforts to accelerate inclusive growth, significantly increasing levels of investment and putting in place measures to create more jobs. It is in line with a range of measures in produce to ignite economic policy inline to igniting economic activity, restore investor confidence, support employment and address the urgent challenges that affect the life of the vulnerable members of our society.





Lo rhulumente wethu uzimisele ukuwenza lo msebenzi ukuqinisekisa ukuba siyayiphucula impilo yabantu bethu. Xa ndigqibezela Sihlalo, ndivumele ndicaphule kwigqala lomzabalazo labantu abantsundu kwelaseMelika elingasekhoyo ubawo uMartin Luther King xa esenjenje:





“W are not where we want to be and not where we were going to be, but we are a long way from where we were.” Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



Declarations of vote:


Mr M S MOLETSANE: The objective of this Bill is to amend the income Tax of 1962, the Customs Act of 1964, the Value-Added tax of 1991,



the Skills Development of 1991, the Unemployment Insurance Contribution Act of 2002, and the Tax Administration Act of 2011. The government continue to burden the people of South Africa, therefore the EFF does not support. [Interjections.]



Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.



Bill agreed to in accordance to section 75 of the Constitution.






(Report of Select Committee on Finance thereon)



Mr E J NJANDU: Hon Chair, hon members, this Bill is dealing with an increase on alcohol and tobacco, which is a pleasure for me to present because it is not going to affect me during the festive season as non-smoker and also not using alcoholic.



The Select Committee on Finance on the Rates and Monetary amounts and Amendments of Revenue Laws Bill, [B17-2019] section 75, the 2019 Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill was



first published in the 2019 budget revenue during the national budget tabling.



The Minister of Finance formally introduced the Bill in Parliament on the 30th of October 2019, during the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement. The tax proposal aimed to raise additional tax revenue to cover for the shortfall in the current financial year and over the medium term.



Section 77 of the Constitution requires all Money Bills to be considered in accordance with the procedure established by the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009, section

11 of the Money Bill’s act provides as a procedure for passing Revenue Bills.



The objective of the Rates Bill is to change the rates and monetary threshold and to increase the excise duties on alcohol and tobacco. The Bill adjusts the rates of normal tax, medical tax credits, employment tax incentive and excise duties on alcohol and tobacco.



The main proposal includes the following.



Not adjusting personal income tax. Branches for inflation but with a 1, 1% increase in the primary, secondary and tertiary rebates which is expected to raise R12,8 billion. No inflation adjustments to medical tax credits increase in the eligible income band for the employment tax incentives such that the maximum of 1000 can be claimed on income up to R4500 from R4000. The amount will be tapered down to down to zero at R6500 from 6000 previously above inflation.



Chairperson, on the 3rd of September 2019, the Select Committee on Finance held a joint briefing with the Standing Committee on Finance by the National Treasury and the SA Revenue Service on the 2019 [Inaudible.]



On the 19 of September 2019, the select committee held join public hearings on the Taxation Bills in Parliament, the committee received submissions from nine stakeholders. Business Unity South Africa, Banking Association South Africa, Transaction Solutions, Section Twelve J Hunt Association, Kingston PricewaterhouseCoopers, South African Institute of Chartered Accountants, South African Institute of Tax Practitioners.



On the 26th of November 2019, the NCOP formally referred the rates Bill to the select committee for consideration and report.

Therefore, the Select Committee on Finance having considered and examined the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill 17, National Assembly section 75 referred to it and classified by Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as section 75, this report to be considered for adoption. Thank you, Chair.



Debate concluded.



Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of the Revenue Laws Bill makes no provision for the effects of inflation on the income of South African taxpayers. The tax brackets have not been adjusted and so annual salary increases received by employees to compensate for inflation has a potential of pushing people into new tax brackets.



Effectively, a person could end up earning less after the annual increases because of the increase tax burden brought about by the bracket creep. This also affects other forms of income on which tax is paid but which is subject to inflation adjustments. This is effectively a stealth tax and while the DA understands the need to



maximise revenue collection in this fiscally challenging environment, doing it through a paid means is not supported.



We didn’t get into this mess through the faults of the taxpayers. Yet, they are now being made to foot the Bill for kleptocratic reign of the ANC. The DA does not support this Bill. Thank you.



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the objective of the Rates Bill is to change the rates and monetary threshold and to increase the excise duties on the alcohol and tobacco. It is going to affect the poorest of the poor who are always going for the two to get solace due to stress they are getting from this government. The EFF is not in support of this Bill. Thank you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, I don’t have a declaration to make but please note that the FFPlus does not support this Bill. Thank you.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, firstly, I don’t think it is correct to say it’s a ‘stealth tax’. The National Treasury is very open and transparent about what it is doing. Secondly, you, yourself acknowledge that we need revenue. We can debate and discuss what the causes are of why we are where we are. But in some or other measure



all of us are complicit all of us including the opposition parties. I think we must take collective responsibility for where we are.



Thirdly, there are many tax breaks that have been given since 1994. In fact, under the former Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel, there were so many tax breaks given that even sections of the ANC and the broader alliance expressed consternation. So look at the history of the post 1994 dispensation.



Fourthly, they are the first people to scream if we talk about wealth tax. In some senses, this increase in tax “creeping increases” as some experts might call it, I think that is a term that is appropriate I am not sure. But whatever value it is I am saying. The point is they will scream, they will shriek, they will cry if you have a wealth tax. Isn’t this a more temperate increase in tax?



As for the EFF, do they agree with anything ever? Even the Tax Administration Bill, Mr Moletsane opposes it. There is no need to get up ... [Interjections.] ... Comrade Chief Whip, what was there to say in response?



Finally, the EFF says they are pro poll. Why then they have been increasing the taxes of the upper classes and the higher income earners. That money must go to free basic services and to social grants and to National Health Insurance, NHI. Why do you oppose to it? Please answer that. Thank you.



Declaration of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African National Congress.



Question Put: That the Bill be agreed to.









Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.



Mr H C SMITH: Hon Chairperson, I just want to file a complaint, sir. You know ... I can’t pronounce the lady’s name correctly, but every time she puts up her two hands and she looks directly at me it feels as if she is laughing at me because I only have one. [Laughter.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, that is noted and indeed that kind of conduct does not assist the process. Thank you very much. We will now read the sixth order.






Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Chairperson of the House, hon Minister of Finance, hon Tito Mboweni, Chief Whip of the Majority, hon members ...





... bantu bekhethu beSewula Afrika, lotjhani.



Sihlalo ongaphambili, ngithokoza ithuba engiphiwe lona namhlanje. Ngizithoba phambi kweSewula Afrika ngijamele iKomidi eKhethekileko yezoKwabiwa kweeMali engiphe igunya lokuthi ngethule umbiko we2020- 2021...





...that proposes division of revenue and conditional grant on provinces and municipalities.



Chairperson, on 30 October 2019 the Minister of Finance tabled the Medium Term Budget Policy Framework, MTBPF, outlining the budget priorities of government for the medium term estimates. In terms of section 6(10) of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009, committees on appropriations are required to consider and report on the proposed division of revenue and conditional grant allocated to provincial and local government as contained in the MTBPF every year.



Chairperson, as per section 6(8), the report of the Select Committee on Appropriation must contain the following: The spending priorities of national government for the next three years, I hope hon Tito is here and you are welcome; the proposed division of revenue between the different spheres of government and between arms of government within a sphere for the next three years; and the proposed substantial adjustment to conditional grants to provinces and local government, if any.



Hon members and hon Chair, in order to deepen the democracy, the committee received presentations from the Minister of Finance in compliance with section 214(2) with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and South African Local Government Association,



Salga, as well as public representations by various organisations. We had a very interesting interaction.



What I would like to highlight ... you can find more details on the report in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATCs

... the FFC has raised a concern that issues that they are raising, hon Minister, through you Chair, they are not mostly taken into consideration. This was a discussion that we had as a committee and resolved for recommendation that Treasury has to go back to its basics and engage FFC very serious and convince each other on recommendations that they have as per the legislation. Hon members, the committee observed the Moloto Road project.





Ngibawa ukuyibeka ngesikhethu. Indaba yangeMoloto esele siyibiza ngendlela yeMoloto kufanele ibizwe ngomzila weMoloto begodu singakhohlwa bonyana akusiyindaba ethoma nje. Isikhathi lesi soke sibabantu beLimpopo, eMpumalanga, eJ S Moroka, eThembisile Hani nabantu beGauteng, siyafa begodu siyafelwa ngendaba ngendlela yeMoloto.






The Moloto Road issue is not about the size of the road. In 2014 I indicated this to hon Dipuo when she was a Minister that in 2014 when she made the Budget Vote the language changed to Moloto Road project.



As the ANC we have committed and we are that kind of an organisation that had a contract with the people. As the ANC we must be able to account and commit to what we have promised people. People from Mpumalanga, Gauteng and Limpopo have been promised a rail. Anything else will not resolve the problem. What is very important, hon Minister, through you Chairperson, is that when we spoke about this Treasury said to us there is no budget but there is a budget to bailout state owned entities, SOEs.



When SOEs need bailout they get it but people of Moloto, Gauteng and Mpumalanga are dying and the worst part is that they are dying in numbers. When there are Putco buses accidents people are dying in numbers. Therefore, we are requesting that hon Minister and hon members responsible to please consider this.



I will go straight to the recommendations, with your permission, Chairperson. Given the current state of the country’s fiscus presented by 2019 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, including



proposed budget reduction at the provincial and local government levels which is at the coalface of the service delivery to the people, the committee recommends that the National Treasury, together with Cogta alongside with treasuries of provinces and provincial Cogta departments and the municipalities, they should all make resources available in line with the public financial management prescripts in a manner that reduces waste, eradicate opportunities for corruption and promote quality service delivery as envisage in the National Development Plan.



Chairperson, while the committee understands the need to restructure certain conditional grants, the committee is of the view that grants restructuring, termination or merging must not affect service delivery. There has also been a belief or an agreement in the committee, as per the presentation, that municipalities need to be given more funds on certain basis. We agreed that not all municipalities must be given more money even those who cannot spend the little that they have. So, it must be given based on merit.



The committee also recommends that the National Treasury together with the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and affected treasuries must expedite the pilot project of the district model. The President has pronounced on the district



model and we are saying this needs to be fast tracked. With that, hon Chairperson, the Moloto Road is not an old issue, it started in 2006 and we want to see it coming alive. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Declarations of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, the report is mostly sound with good recommendations. Several of the recommendations include demands for Ministers to give account on various matters within 60 days. This must be followed up and the responses received are interrogated.



Key in this report is the discussion around whether local government is under funded or not. This discussion needs to be heard in the appropriate forums urgently. The committee has recommended, amongst other things, that Treasury needs to engage more fully with the FFC and also with Salga, not at the last minute during budget forum meetings but earlier in the process in time to influence planning.

The Western Cape supports the report. [Applause.]



Mr Z MKIVA: Well, it is just a point of emphasis to say that of course the issues that she is raising are issues that we have already raised at the committee level. Our view is very clear and it is that Medium Term Budget Policy Statement is very central to the



government planning and it is intended to support the National Development Plan.



Therefore, as hon Mahlangu was articulating that particular position, we all agreed that indeed the money allocated to municipalities is not enough. However, before we add the funds at that level for instance we need to first build internal capacity and we can’t use a blanket approach of saying let us just increase that grant. It must be based on each and every environment. If the municipality performs and is able to spend the money inline with the law and so forth, then we can consider that. I think there is unanimity in terms of what needs to be done at that level and indeed we say this must go forward. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Declarations of vote cont.


Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, as we all know, more and more municipalities are being dysfunctional and the Auditor-General’s report was clear that there is lack of skills and consequence management in the municipalities. I hear some members saying that more funds must be evoked to some municipalities and others. But the fact stands; the more money we give to dysfunctional municipalities, the more money is wasted. We need to focus on uplifting infrastructure in the Division of Revenue Bill. Infrastructure



grants have been taken as well as Bills that are supposed to uplift and enhance the infrastructure at schools. An amount of R40 million in the North West was taken away. That is unacceptable. It is as if the priorities are skewed.



I think that one of the biggest concerns for me as well is the fact that there is under spending in different department - money that was available but it wasn’t applied appropriately. At the end of the day, people in the country - our residents - the voters that voted for us - are not getting the services that they are entitled to.

They are not getting the assistance that they need to get. I am referring specifically to the drought relief allocation in the North West province that was taken away.



I have said it before and I am going to say it again, the MEC of Finance indicated that the Department of Agriculture in the North West doesn’t even submit new plans. And we must remember this isn’t only affecting the farmers. Some of the drought relief that was evoked to provinces, also assisted in the rural areas [Inaudible.] with water pipelines that were erected on side.



So this is not a farmer and residents of South Africa thing. It is affecting all of us. And I think that time has come for government



to put its foot down to hold the relevant people responsible for not doing what they are supposed to do because it is to the detriments of everyone. The FF Plus does not support this Bill.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Having declared, we shall now proceed to voting which is going to be done manually on the question. Yes, what your point of order?



Mr D R RYDER: Chair, this is an incredibly important debate. The Ministers attending today [Inaudible.] Welcome Minister, thank you for coming. He hasn’t come in the past when we were having this debate. Hon Mahlangu dressed up so nicely and yet we are not getting coverage on You Tube today. The public wants to see what is happening. We are getting repeated requests. Can we please ask that the live stream goes out so that people can follow what we are discussing? Hon Mahlangu’s points, were speaking directly to her constituency. We are all making important speeches here and yet they are not being seen. Please Chair, can we get the technology up to speed?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Can we ask the Table just to ensure that this issue of You Tube grievance is attended to? I am sure it is noted. Is it now okay? The indication



that I am getting is that the You Tube issue has now been sorted out. That is the indication that I am getting. Thank you very much. We now proceed to voting on the question. We will do so in an alphabetical order. I will now call on provinces to indicate their vote accordingly.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.







(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, hon members, fellow South Africans, a very good morning. It is one more an honour for me to be here before this august House; to have an opportunity to represent the Appropriations Committee on the report of the 2019—20 Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 16 – 2019]



The Minister of Finance tabled the Medium-Term Budgetary Frameworks, MTBF, on the 30 October 2019, outlining the budget priorities of government for the medium term estimate. The 2019 MTBF was table in Parliament with the Adjustment Appropriation Bill [B16 – 2019] section 12(15)(a) of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009, as amended. It provides that after the National Assembly passes the Adjustment Appropriation Bill, which it did the day before yesterday, the Bill must then be referred to the NCOP and then be referred to the Select Committee on Appropriations. The NCOP referred the Bill to the committee for concurrent and consideration on the fourth, which was yesterday.



Hon Minister, through you Chairperson, previously when we presented the Bill, we said we understood the pressure that you find yourself in. And we are still pleading that next year, lets try to give each other enough time to apply our mind on the Bill presented before us. And the other thing as the NCOP that we want to be given a chance on, is that we need enough time to involve provinces. We need enough time to involve municipalities because this is the House that is working directly with those spheres of government.



While we are processing this Adjustment Appropriation Bill, there are issues that the committee has raised and I would humbly request



members to check the ATC Report. Allow me Chairperson, to go straight to the recommendations. Hon Chairperson, with regard to the unspent amount of money of R3,9 billion, the committee enclose the executive to improve the efficiency and the effectiveness of spending allocated budget across government with the intention of achieving value for money.



We are more concerned on the outcome other than people who can tick or spin the numbers as an important measure to prevent regression in the realisation of socio-economic rights enshrined in the Constitution of our country. On the request to approve rollover funds to the amount of R344,9 million, the committee approved the rollover in line with the condition set out in the section 4 of the Treasury regulation and recommended that measures be put in place to ensure strict compliance with cosseted and approved annual plan.



We have said to Treasury that this needs to be treated with caution because we don’t want people who have rollovers to apply to you and give you pressure to approve rollover for the sake of doing it. On the request of approval for ... [Inaudible.] ... and shifting of funds exceeding R100 million by the departments, like the Department of Public Enterprise, Department of Health, Department of Correctional Services, Department of Justice and Constitutional



Development, Department of Tourism, Department of Rural Development Land Reform and Department of Social Development, the committee approves these with the understanding that the affected Ministers will ensure that there will be enhanced planning in future and that proper budgeting will be done by the department.



It is because we believe that sometimes these things happen because of poor planning and poor budgeting. Therefore, the under expenditure on infrastructure budget has brought a very serious concern to us. Because we can’t just be happy for you hon Minister that you take money from the provinces that have not spent it. When you look at the outcome of service delivery, there are no schools, there are still mud schools and there no toilets. So we have to be concerned that you can’t just give money and people decide not to spend money and we must be happy that you are taking it back.



The money was budgeted for because there were projects needed and there were needs identified from the communities and those needs to be addressed. We need quality service delivery for our people. With regard to the R157 million declared unspent allocation for the Job Fund by the National Treasury, the committee recommends that the Minister of Finance should within 60 days after the adoption of this



report by the House, submit to Parliament, a report on the reasons for this under spending and how it will be avoided in future.



National Treasury should also brief the committee on how the Job Fund is being administered in order to broaden it’s under spending. We are all aware that the percentage of unemployment is very high. If we have such a high rate of unemployment and we have resources that are not spent it brings a very serious concern. All of us as political parties went to our people and we promised them. We all spoke about unemployment because it’s an issue of national interest.



Therefore, after 60 days hon Minister, we expect Treasury to come to the committee and explain to us. On the declared unspent funds of R300 million by the Small Enterprise Finance Agency for small business and innovation funds, the committee recommends that the Minister of Small Business Development, should within 60 days, and after the adoption of this report by the House, submit the report to Parliament on the reasons for these funds not being spent when Small, Medium and Micro-sized Enterprises, SMME, have long been identified as catalysts for stimulating economic growth and very important heartbeat of our economy. We know how much SMMEs are contributing to the economy of our country.



Hon Chairperson and all the members, in my conclusion I just want to say thank you very much to the committee members and the support staff for the outstanding work they have done. Without us as a team, we wouldn’t have been able to produce what we have produced. Thank you very much hon Minister, through you Chairperson, for the availability whenever we request it from Treasury. Thank you so much. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon members. That concludes the debate. There has been a request that now before we start with the voting, we allow hon members to quickly break for tea and the bells will ring for you to come back. There is such a request.



The Council Suspended at: 11:16






(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you are aware that the process that we will follow now is a very serious and time consuming process. So, let us please not take too much of each



other’s time. Let us really try to do it as ... Give me a nice English word if possible. I shall now put the Vote in the order in which they appear on the Schedule to the Bill. Before I do so, let me remind the members that when we are voting, the doors will be closed.



Vote No 1 – Presidency – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We shall now proceed to Vote 2. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Vote 3? [Interjections.] No, it is not me, it is the guide. Yes, hon member?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, although there is no division, surely it must be asked whether members are in favour or against the Vote even if there is no division. Division is simply to get the numbers of the Vote and who are the members voting for or against.

But I mean, every single Vote needs to be voted on. Still, we haven’t voted on one. Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I saw it has become a practice in this House. It is not what the guide is prescribing.

But I think it has become a practice in this House and I don’t want us to debate whether we should be asking all those in favour or against. I don’t want us to do that. I am doing it. I am putting it on record. I will be doing it, but it is nowhere on the guide that I am using. But I know what happened the last time when we were dealing with the same issue. So, all those in favour say ‘ayes’ [Interjections.] and all those against say ‘noes’. [Interjections.] The ‘ayes’ have it. Let’s continue.



Vote No. 3 – Communications – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We take note of the objections of the parties. There is no demand for a division. So, all ... The DA?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Is for a division.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The DA calls for a division. Smit, which party do you belong to? [Interjections.] I haven’t ask you. I don’t know why you are doing it. Yes, Michalakis?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, again my apologies. Tell me if I am wrong. But again, you request a division after a Vote has been taken. You have requested if there was a division before the Vote was put.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Not at all. I haven’t requested for a division. I said there is no demand for a division. That’s what I said. So, if there is no demand for a division, we continue because parties must indicate whether they want the House to be divided.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Well, we need the opportunity to indicate that. If we are not given the opportunity, we can’t indicate that, Deputy Chairperson. So, we call for a division, please.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am making sure that I work according to the Rules that we have agreed on. So, if there is a call for a division, members can we quickly divide the House. All of you know how we usually do it. [Interjections.] Members, you say you need division. You didn’t say you want to make noise. [Interjections.] Order in the House. Hon members, you are moving very slow. Please, don’t waste our time here. There has been a call for a division. We would like to caution members that during division no debate will be allowed.



Division demanded.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chair, on a point of order, please.












Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to refer to Rule 65.






Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I think six months ago, we questioned this. I just want all of us to refresh our minds. Rule 65 says after a question has been put and the officer presiding has indicated whether the ayes or the noes have it, any member may demand a division.

Therefore, I didn’t demand a division. You said there was no demand for a division. But you first have to put the ayes and against and then we did advice. Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The problem is that no one went to the university to study to be a member of the legislature. So, let’s continue. Thank you. There was a call for a division. The House has been divided. Now we are back here. Let’s continue. There is a new Rule book here on the table and we are using it. Let’s continue.



The Council divided.






Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I now put Vote 5.


Any ... Sorry, sorry, hon Cloete ... hon Cloete. You are rising on?



Mr S F DU TOIT: Chairperson, I just want to make a point of order. At which stage are we allowed to do declarations, because the parties have indicated that they want to do declarations?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Let me consult the Table. May we continue? The problem that I am having here is that every time ... You have seen in all the ways that we have been voting that there is always a difference. So, according to the guide, they have not necessarily provided for declarations of vote - hon Du Toit, unless you want to preside here, but allow me to speak, to finish speaking. I’m ruling, and what we are going to do is request ... We divide the House, firstly, then we request for the votes, and then after the votes you can make a declaration. I am ruling ...



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I am rising on a point of order. Chairperson, with all due respect, the Rules of this House have not been amended, and



even if you as the Chairperson can rule, you cannot rule without the Rules of the House. Rule 63 says: When a question to be decided by the votes of individual members has been fully put, the officer presiding on request may allow each political party in a speech not exceeding three minutes by a Council member belonging to that party to state the reasons why the party is in favour or against the question. We have to declare before the vote, because you have to say why are you are voting the way you are voting.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Labuschagne, just tell me ... This was a report; the report was tabled. And after the report, it is now the voting on each one of the Votes. Even myself, I was asking because it was not in the guide. I was asking myself: Shouldn’t after the report there be declarations of vote? If there were declarations of vote ... Must we now have declarations after each and every vote, as that is what you are saying? Is that what you would prefer?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, if we look ... [Inaudible.] ... at the report as a report in itself ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): ... [Inaudible.]


... it’s your guide.



Hon members, we are proceeding. We are proceeding. We are proceeding. [Interjections.] We are proceeding. [Interjections.]



I now put Vote 5. Vote No 5 is Home Affairs. Are there any objections? The DA objects ... FF Plus?



Mr S F DU TOIT: Point of order.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): What is the order now? [Interjections.] What is the order now? We are proceeding, and that is my ruling. So, what is the order now?



Mr S F DU TOIT: Okay, Chair ... if you could give me an opportunity. You asked me what the order is. Let me tell you what the order is, Chair. With the utmost respect to this House, the hon member just read what the procedure is. [Interjections.] Now, you are overruling the procedure that was read to you.





whilst you were sitting there we have been advised by the Table, and we said we are proceeding. So, you think you know better now than those who are supposed to advise us.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Okay, hon Chair, could you please then give the feedback that the Table gave to you to advise the whole House as to what is the way forward ... just to inform us about that, please. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, we are continuing. I now put Vote 5. Are there any objections?



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).





THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I now put Vote 7.








there any objections?














THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): DA?



Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, the DA would like to object, and I would like to declare before the vote so that I can perhaps influence other members of this House. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Brother, have you come to show me ... [Inaudible.]



Mr D R RYDER: That’s according to the Rules, Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon member, you see the problem is that we have agreed – all of us here in this House – and I don’t want to be treated as if I am a stupid.



Mr D R RYDER: Chair, we haven’t agreed. You’ve ruled, but incorrectly.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Let us continue. EFF? Any objections?



AN HON MEMBER: The EFF objects, Chair.






AN HON MEMBER: Chair, the FF Plus objects, and I would like to do a declaration as well.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): It’s fine. We are going to give you to do a declaration of vote. We are asking objections now. IFP? There are no objections. We take note of the objections of the party. All those in favour say “Yes”.






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): All those against say “No”.






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Any declarations of vote. Yes, DA? Ryder?





Jy is mos ouer as ek. [Onhoorbaar.] Jy is mos ouer as ek. Ek wil jou net vra, in die vervolg wag tot ek jou erken dan staan jy op. So ... Jy is mos ouer as ek.





Mr D R RYDER: Sorry?





Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Me S E Lucas): Ryder, as jy my versuur ... As jy my nie versuur nie, respek my. Jy kan maar praat.



Mr D R RYDER: Chair, sorry. I have a hearing aid. I can’t hear you. Please talk into the microphone.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Ryder ... Thank


you. You may stand up and now declare.



Declarations of vote:


Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, hon Chairperson ...



An HON MEMBER: Hon Ryder.



Mr D R RYDER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, as the custodian of the national purse, National Treasury should be the example that we hold up to other departments to show how things should be done. If only it were so, Mr Minister. The number of virements being processed in the Treasury’s bill is substantial. Whether that is prudent



reallocation in response to dynamic circumstances or a product of poor budgeting and forecasting is certainly up for debate, especially when one considers that a predictable expense – the payment of the Auditor-General fees – is coming from funds previously allocated elsewhere.



One must, however, commend the department on the reduction of expenses on consultants and the trimming of the fat in staff compensation, travel and similar expenses. The shock feature of Treasury’s adjustment, however, is the declared underspending of R157,2 million on the Jobs Fund. How can this be morally justified in a country where unemployment is out of control - when there are over 10 million people who are willing, able and looking for work sitting without the prospect of putting food on their tables just to survive?



Treasury is too busy sending out memos to sign a cheque that will bring jobs to real people. How can you sleep at night knowing that you have the power to change lives and bring hope to people who need it most – sitting in your fancy Treasury office while on the street below there are hungry people looking for jobs, and yet the funds for the Jobs Fund lie unspent and then are returned to the fiscus to



be reprioritised? I am frustrated; I am disappointed; I am disgusted. The DA does not support this adjustment.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, I am going to speak in both English and Afrikaans if someone wants to make use of the interpreting services.





Agb Voorsitter, die begroting van die Nasionale Tesourie is veronderstel om ten doel te hê om die volgende te ondersteun en te stimuleer — en ek dink dit is nodig om dit aan die Huis te noem aangesien dit lyk asof daar van die lede is wat dit nie weet nie — Ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling ... sosiale vooruitgang te bevorder en die lewenstandaarde te verbeter. Dit is deur die effektiewe en volhoubare bestuur van openbare fondse asook ... die instandhouding van die makro-ekonomiese finansiële sektor stabiliteit te verseker deur effektiewe finansiële regulering van die ekonomie.



Maar, ten spyte van hierdie kardinale taak en die verantwoordelikheid wat veronderstel is om die pasaangeër van die land te wees, het die Nasionale Tesourie ’n onderspandering van R179,35 miljoen wat van hul begroting verwyder is.






Chair, the hon Ramaphosa said the following in the state of the nation address in 2019 to the Auditor-General. He said, and I’m quoting: The Fifth Parliament capacitated your office. It is a good development as it allows us to do things that we couldn’t do before

... allow us the opportunity to help prevent things from becoming an unsustainable mess allows us and the public to gear up so that we understand what happens to the public’s money as it happens and not in 10 years after it happens. I close the quotes.



In spite of this uttering by the President and reports by the Auditor-General with regards to supply-chain mismanagement and fraud, a total R42,66 million was removed from the financial accounting and supply-chain management system’s budget.



As if to ensure that further maladministration and tender corruption could take place, on top of that R36,51 million was supposed to be used for financial administration and was also removed from the budget.



This deliberate removal of funds in these critical sectors of supply-chain management and financial administration fuels the shameful flood of looting. The FF Plus doesn’t support Vote No 7. Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you to the members that made declarations. I think we are still trying to get to a point where we do things totally correctly. We are still trying to get there, and we are moving ... Yes, hon Carrim?



Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, firstly, in response to Mr Ryder: Most of what he said, except for the point about the Jobs Fund, is not really relevant to this debate. [Interjections.] It is not relevant, Chairperson. It is not relevant to this debate. He is talking about the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, and he is talking about the revised fiscal framework. [Interjections.] He is talking about the Budget of the country as a whole.



What he should be focusing on is National Treasury’s allocation in terms of Budget Vote No 7, and in that regard there is only one point he made which was about the Jobs Fund. He was talking about the overall Budget. So, it was not really relevant. But maybe because he is new, he doesn’t know. [Interjections.] No, I don’t mean to patronise him. I don’t. [Interjections.]



On the matter of the Jobs Fund ... On the matter of the Jobs Fund





The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, if we don’t agree with one another it doesn’t take away the validity of the argument. It doesn’t take away the validity of the argument.

This declaration is about the allocation to National Treasury. It should be about the allocation to National Treasury, but we allow because we said ... [Inaudible.] ... we must make declarations. It cannot be that the chairperson of finance stands up to correct some of the things that we are now speaking about. The principle that he is speaking about is not necessarily something that is debatable ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]



Mr Y I CARRIM: Thank you, Chairperson. But he does make a useful point about the Jobs Fund, Minister. The Jobs Fund does belong to National Treasury. [Interjections.] The Jobs Fund does belong to National Treasury ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order, members! Order! Order! Order! Order, here!



Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, the Jobs Fund does belong to National Treasury. It does fall under Vote No 7. He was right to raise the point he did, except it was in the extreme. I think it is bizarre to say: how can the Minister sleep at night and so on. I mean, which



Minister of Finance in which country would not be troubled by that? Mr Stephanus du Toit does raise Vote No 7. He makes some very useful points. But, again, he goes off the rails, really. It’s extreme to say the things you do. For example, on underspending you’re right: National Treasury should at least be responsible for that. But by the measure of departments in this country, National Treasury’s underspending is probably extremely minimal. On supply-chain management, Minister, personally I have seen no evidence, over the last three years, despite all the accusations of corruption. The difficulty, Chairperson, is: the onus resides on the Minister and the director-general to come into the public domain to the National Assembly and the NCOP and make that clear. Otherwise, the suspicion, the perception, will persist that they are being corrupt in supply- chain management.



Many of the things that Mr Ryder raises, which are not relevant to this debate ... National Treasury has been leading on ... National Treasury said, “Do not use consultants” about 10 years ago. National Treasury said, many years ago, “Cut your travel costs.” So what Mr Ryder is talking about is not National Treasury. Other departments are not doing what National Treasury requires them to do. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, according to the Rules parties are allowed three minutes to make declarations. [Interjections.] I am watching the time here. He even had 59 seconds left. I am watching the time. [Inaudible.] He even had 59 seconds left. I am watching the time here, and that is the reason why I didn’t look anywhere because I was allowing him his three minutes. After his three minutes, you can say whatever you want to say. I was allowing him his three minutes, because, according to the Rules, he is allowed his three minutes. Zandamela?



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thanks, Deputy Chairperson. This is really disturbing when the chairperson of the committee comes to this House and tries to correct things that he should have corrected in the committee. [Interjections.] Please, he must not come here and abuse us. Thank you, Chairperson.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): That is your feeling. [Interjections.] DA?



Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chairperson, I have ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Members, uh-uh. [Inaudible.] Don’t say this one and that one, because you are



equally corrupted. [Interjections.] Order, please! Members, order, please! Luthuli, it is even you. I am very disappointed.



Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chairperson, I have two points of personal clarity I would like to make. Number one: my question of “How do you sleep at night?” was not directed at the Minister but at the Treasury department. So, I just want to place that on record.



Number two - on my clarification – my points all came straight out of Vote No 7’s annexure. If the hon chairperson would like to discuss them and how they work, I am open to giving a training lesson in my office – 303 in the Marks Building.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The only points of order there are that you corrected the understanding. FF Plus?



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. I just want to say that the hon Carrim is misleading the House by saying that in Vote No 7 supply- chain management isn’t mentioned. It is mentioned there. And the Auditor-General’s report is very clear that there is fraudulent activity in supply-chain management and it is a big matter of concern. So, please, I request humbly that the hon Carrim retract his words and not mislead the House in future.



Vote No 8 — Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation — put.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I now put Vote No


8 and I will allow those who raise objections ... Listen to me.


Listen carefully. We will allow those who raise objections to make their declarations immediately, so that when we say yes or no we just continue. That is what I’m saying. So, listen very carefully.



I now put Vote No 8, which is Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. Are there any objections? Yes DA? [Interjections.] Huh-uh, it’s alphabetical. [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the DA vociferously objects. [Interjections.]






Ms M O MOKAUSE: The EFF objects.






An HON MEMBER: The FF Plus objects.





[Interjections.] No. The ANC? No objection. We take note of the objections of the parties. Are there any declarations from those that object? [Interjections.] Make your declaration because we are going to do it now. We are going to do it like that so that we don’t have that long discussion afterwards.



Declaration(s) of vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, we’ve always believed that this department is one of the useless departments which takes the bulk of the budget but does not deliver on its mandate. If this department was so useful, is the ANC government still going to have such riots in the country? It is this department which needs to advise the ANC government as to where it is not delivering and where it should focus. So, as the EFF we are saying that we do not support this. Let the money of that department be taken elsewhere to support women’s and children’s programmes, including Statistics SA. Thank you.



Mr H C SMITH: Sorry, hon Deputy Chair. The Adjustments Appropriation Bill, which we as the ANC support, has been presented under a difficult economic climate. Our economy is not performing at a level that revenue collection will meet our expenditure requirements.



As put by the Minister of Finance, our national debt is increasing at an unsustainable pace. Fortunately however, all is not doom and gloom. The economic forecast is that sub-Saharan Africa is expected to grow at 3,6% in 2020. The South African economy is expected to slowly rise to 1,7% in 2022, supported by household consumption and private-sector investment.



We note the positive progress registered by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, especially on the programme of Frontline Service Delivery and Citizen-Based Monitoring, in which the department registered over almost 60% achievement of its first quarter targets.



We also note that other indicators have not registered any progress mainly because submissions of annual performance plans and strategic plans were to be finalised by the end of October. Assessment on these programmes will be presented in the fourth quarter report of the department.



The ANC supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill for this Vote. Thank you.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 9 — Public Enterprises – put.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I will now put Vote No 9, being Public Enterprises. Are there any objections ANC? [Interjections.] The DA?



Mr T J BRAUTESESTH: Deputy Chair, the DA objects and when the time comes we’d like to divide.






Mr T J BRAUTESESTH: When the time comes.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Okay. So you are not going to make a declaration now because you are calling for a division?



Mr T J BRAUTESESTH: No declaration.






An HON MEMBER: The EFF objects.



An HON MEMBER: What about the IFP?





alphabetically. Didn’t you hear me? I could’ve said FF Plus but because you are before them in the alphabet ... The FF Plus? [Interjections.] I ...



An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, the FF Plus objects.





[Interjections.] No. No, I’m going alphabetically. Don’t make me lose my senses here. [Interjections.] We take note of the objections. There has already been a demand for a division by the DA. There was a demand for a division by the DA. We are ... [Interjections.] ... members ... the call for a division. We are already sitting correctly. So, we can continue with the voting. [Interjections.]



No, the House is divided. [Interjections.] No, the House is divided. The House is divided. I mean we cannot walk up and down, and do it



... and change it. [Laughter.] Can we have the DA here? Can we have the microphone for ma Labuschagne?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Although the House is already divided, the reason for a division is for the votes to be accounted for in the minutes and in the report. We don’t just divide for divisions ... sitting together. There is a reason for everything that happens in this House. Thank you. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Aai jinne! [Good grief!] The deputy presiding officer. Can we continue? We are calling for a division of the House. That is for the record. Can we now proceed to the voting?



Division demanded.



The Council divided.



[Voting take in from minutes]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration — put



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I now put Vote No 10. Are there any objections? The ANC? [Interjections.] The DA? I’m taking it alphabetically please. [Inaudible.] I know I’m speaking to Cloete. I’m taking it alphabetically. The DA?



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chair, the DA objects and we have a declaration.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can we just get all the objections and then we’ll come to the declarations. The EFF?



An HON MEMBER: The EFF objects.






An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, just quickly; we didn’t have a declaration on Vote No 9.








An HON MEMBER: There were no declarations. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Sorry? Nee, nee,


nee! [No, no, no!] Huh-uh! Wag eers! [Just wait!] Hon members, we ruled that when you object you make your declaration. That is the reason why the DA said they were not going to make a declaration but they would call for a division. That is what they said. So, I’m not going to change it up and down. We are continuing the way we have been ... [Inaudible.] ... to continue. [Interjections.]



We are now at Vote No 9 and we are calling for objections. If you object and you want to make a declaration, you will make a declaration immediately or you will call for a division. Let’s go to the FF Plus.



An HON MEMBER: We do not support Vote No 9. [Interjections.] She said Vote No 9! [Interjections.] Are we at Vote No 10 now? [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Vote No 10 ... [Inaudible.]



An HON MEMBER: Okay good. Well, then we in the Ff Plus object to Vote No 10.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, that is Vote No 10. Yes, we are at Vote No 10.








not objecting, so don’t tell them. [Interjections.] Don’t tell people to object if they are not objecting. We are at Vote No 10. We have called for objections. Are there any declarations of vote? Yes DA? [Inaudible.] Okay.



Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chair, I note with great interest today and I mean ... [Inaudible.] ... a number of our members, including yourself, my good friend and sister, hon Mahlangu, and the Chief Whip of the NA if she is still here, are wearing orange. I was wondering whether the hon Patricia de Lille is having a good effect on the ANC ... [Laughter.] ... or whether or not Pieter Mulder was having a garage sale ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I will not wear blue anymore. I will not wear blue anymore. [Laughter.]



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: ... or perhaps you prefer ... [Inaudible.] I don’t know.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I wanted to wear a red dress today. [Interjections.]



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Anyway Chair ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you. You may continue hon ...



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: With my declaration. Questions to this department of Public Service and Administration over the past few months have revealed a complete breakdown of the intent to hold officials in the department to account.



The Minister revealed that a unit envisaged by legislation enacted in 2014 had still not been created. The purpose of this unit was to create mechanisms for disciplinary action and the building of an ethics unit. Five years on colleagues, nothing has happened.



All of this takes place in an environment where R7 billion was paid to employees doing business with the state and where 77% of the



millionaire manager brigade in government failed to submit their performance reviews in time for the 2018-19 period.



To add insult to injury, on Wednesday the department ran through a budget that places the funding of the Public Service Commission, PSC, within the mandate of the department that it is supposed to oversee. Thus, the independence of the PSC has been severely undermined and it must now beg its master for funding to control its master; a ridiculous state of affairs indeed.



This department needs drastic measures to curb the capture of the state purse by a bloated, overpaid and largely incompetent officialdom. The current budget ... [Inaudible] ... shows no signs of any intent to do that and accordingly, the DA cannot support the budget. I thank you.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Chair, Public Service and Administration has a crucial role to play in terms of repositioning the Public Service to be able to deliver on the Medium-Term Strategic Framework of the Fifth administration.



In one of our ... [Inaudible.] ... with the Minister, the Minister indeed confirmed that there is a process that is very critical in



terms of ensuring that this machinery is oiled by inducting not only the executing authority but also the accounting officers to ensure that there is uniformity and clarity in terms of the delegation of authority. Therefore, as the ANC we appreciate the tremendous work that is done by the Minister in ensuring that there is clarity of thought around how we must professionalise the Public Service of the Fifth administration.



We also appreciate the good work that the PSC continues to render in terms of ... [Inaudible.] ... national anticorruption hotline cases, particularly being reported by the department within seven days of the receipt of these reports. Indications are that the PSC is likely to exceed its annual targets if this pace is sustained.



As the ANC we support the adjustments appropriation for Public Service and Administration as this will ensure that, indeed, the department continues to lead the modernisation of the Public Service, particularly around our agenda of creating an integrated, single Public Service. The ANC supports the MTBPS and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill for this vote. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. [Applause.]



Division demanded.



The Council divided.



[Voting take in from minutes]






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): We are still voting, hon member. We are still voting. [Interjections.] No, there is no debate allowed in this. We can raise a point of order but we are still voting. Allow us. [Interjections.] You have voted. You have voted. You have voted.



Yes hon Labuschagne, you may please. Thank you. Thank you, members.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. [Interjections.] While we were doing a division ... Rule 67 provides that I can rise on a point of order during a division. Read your rules.



Chairperson, the point of order is that a member there in the back row used his camera and took a photo. It’s not parliamentary and it’s not part of the rules. We cannot allow that. Thank you. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, you know it’s not allowed. You know it’s not allowed. Thank you.

However, it doesn’t mean that because the rule provides for something you must just do it because the rule provides. Let’s continue. Can we get the results? Can we get the results? [Interjections.]



Thank you very much. Those in favour of Vote No 10 are 36 and those against are 19. There were no abstentions. So Vote No 10 carries. [Applause.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote 11 – Public Works - put



Declarations of vote:


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Chairperson, I just to note, myself and hon Mahlangu need to have a chat because in the NA we’ve got these lovely buttons where you press for, against and abstain, we need to get them installed here so that we don’t have to do all this counting. It’s easy, press buttons.



Programme 4 of the budget of the public works and infrastructure makes allowance for R60 million for policy development. Despite this, no policy development has actually taken place. The Public Works Bill has been outstanding since 2014 despite numerous promises to get the White Papers reviewed. Amendments to Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, and the Council for the Built Environment, CBE, Bills are still floundering around. Not to mention a complete lack of direction on Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, policy to ensure uniformity of application and mechanisms to ensure value for money spent on the programme.



This type of uncertainty is reflecting the fact the budget expected to collect R600 000 on interest on dividends and land rental but the department actually received R10,7 million and there’s another R2,1 million to come. Although this is good, it also points to historical under collection or a complete lack of control over these elements.



This is either due to incompetence or due to deliberate attempts by officials such as the dubious director general to maintain the state of organised chaos a blizzard of obfuscation to blind and divert any attempt to hold the department to account.



Whilst the malaise continues, and while the Minister continues in a death struggle with her director general, there will be no policy certainty or any plan. And when you spend money without a plan, the parasites of state capture will continue to feed with no end in sight. For this reason amongst any others, the DA cannot support this budget. I thank you.



Mr M I RAYI: Hon deputy Chairperson, as part of the reconfiguration of government, the function of infrastructure coordination has been assigned to the public works. The President has also assigned the coordination of the infrastructure delivery management system and the Presidential Infrastructure Coordination Commission, PICC, to the same department.



These changes signally clearly intend by government to prioritise infrastructure development in the sixth administration. As committed by the President in the state of the nation address and during the launch of this stimulus package last year, in taking this commitment forward, the infrastructure investment fund worth over R100 billion has been established.



As the ANC, we believe that South Africa must invest more in infrastructure to create conditions conducive to economic growth. We



welcome the allocation of R100 million to small harbours programme. As the President has said, the infrastructure is critical area of investment that supports structural transformation, growth and job creation. It is essential to our economic rejuvenation.



Our country continues to confront a sketch of unemployment and poverty. Given the significance of EPWP programmes in this regard, there is need for more robust monitoring and evaluation of the programme. During the previous financial years to 2018/19, more than 4, 5 million beneficiaries have been positively impacted. This number comprises to 56%, women 44% youth and 1% people with disabilities.



A concern has been raised particularly by the organised working class that some municipalities use their EPWP allocation to fund core functions instead of employing people at decent rates and placing them on municipal wage bills. This is a matter that we must look into as part of our oversight hon Kenny Mmoiemang.



We are indeed encouraged by the commitment by the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure that there will be no secrecy in awarding of tenders. The Minister has also promised that from now on, members



of the public will be able to observe the evaluation and adjudication of departments’ bidding process.



We call on the department to finalise the setting aside of the appointments of 87 senior managers and 677 staff levels below the senior managers that were declared irregular by the Public Service Commission. As ANC we support the Adjustment Appropriation Bill.

Thank you Chair.



Division demanded.



Council divided.



Agreed to (with DA, EFF and FF-Plus dissenting).



Vote 12 – Statistics South Africa – put



Mr H C SMITH: Point of order: If we look at number 12 I see before we proceed I would just like to know the EFF, we all received this appropriation bill document where it indicates that they have supported this number 12 and they are… [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member we are now starting with vote, we have not been to vote 12 and that is not….



Declarations of vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Although we are sitting on the other side of the House but we would like to put it on record that we supporting Statistics South Africa and would like to make a declaration.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause, can you continue with your declaration?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: We would like to congratulate the team and MR Maluleke of Statistics SA for continuing to do a sterling job at Statistics SA. But, as a continued effort via the ruling party to reduce Statistics SA to a help desk. They do not give them funding and they do not support them.



Statistics SA is unable to carry out important research and collect data to inform important policy decisions due to budgetary constraints. Any government that does not prioritise funding for such an important programme of data collection, particularly Statistics SA does not take a responsibility of governing seriously like the ANC government.



It is not enough to recommend that the Minister in the Presidency must talk to the Minister of Finance. The same recommendations which we made previously are still here and are not supported by the ruling party.



It is not acceptable that Statistics SA had to cancel an important study on femicide because there is no budget but we find that there is budget allocation for useless departments like monitoring and evaluation.



A study on poverty in South Africa has been reduced to a simple pamphlet because Statistics SA is not funded. We are saying, reduce the bloated Cabinet. Don’t say to us that you have reduced the Cabinet but you have increased the Deputy Ministers. We are still saying, reduce the bloated Cabinet. Take the budget that you’ve allocated to monitoring and evaluation department because it is useless; give it to Statistics SA to fund important programmes. The EFF supports this.





Mnu Z MKIVA: Sekela Sihlalo weNdlu ohloniphekileyo, masiyithethe into yokuba iziko leNkcukacha-manani loMzantsi Afrika (Statistics SA) lazalwa, laphehlelelwa ngumbutho wesizwe i-ANC kweli lizwe.





We are not in the business of establishing structures and then undermined. We know the strategic importance of Statistics SA in this country. As a matter of fact, the ANC places Statistics SA at the centre of the management of the national questioning in this country.



It is easy to throw stones when you’re not in government, we work according to plans and we know how to prioritise. Don’t just throw ideas as if you know how to govern. We have been in government for

25 years and we have done improvement in the lives of our people.



Statistics SA continues to provide statistical analysis… [Interjections.]



Mr M E NCHABELENG: (POINT OF ORDER: Chairperson, I can’t hear the person on the podium because of the noise coming from the members. I find it difficult to hear.



Mr Z MKIVA: It’s a very important point [Laughter.] Democracy is about freedom of speech and freedom of listening. People must learn that. I was making a point that Statistics SA continues to provide statistical analysis which assist policy makers to measure in



figures the possibility of impact in terms of policy and service delivery.



Statistics SA has been conducting training on child poverty during the entire month of November. This will prepare statisticians for the survey on child poverty. Statistics SA has recorded an increase year on year of 9, 9% which was mainly due to the temporal allocation of R75 million for the recruitment of contract staff, for economic population and social survey.



Statistics SA has achieved almost over 50% of its first quarter target and as such providing statistical data to enable South Africans to measure how we are performing socially and economically.



The ANC which is governing this country which will continue to govern this country for many centuries to come supports the medium term budget policy statement and the Adjustment Appropriation Bill for this vote.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order hon members. Thank you, let us continue. Hon Mokause, you indicated continuously that you support it but it’s your member that is shouting no. It’s Motsamai that is shouting no.



Agreed to.



Vote 13 - Women– put



Declarations of vote:




Nk S A LUTHULI: Sihlalo, kulaba abangasazi isiZulu bangabe befaka izinto zabo ngoba ngizokhuluma sona. I-EFF ayisiseki, izizathu yilezi, ukuthi uHulumeni awukwazi ukulandela izimali ukuthi zishona ngalaphi. Izinhlelo azikwazi ukusiza abantu besifazane ikakhulukazi abantu besifazane abasemakhaya.



Lo Hulumeni awukwazi ukuthi ulandelele ukuthi izinhlelo lezi ezincane ezisuke zikhona akwazi ukuthi aziseke aphinde akwazi uukwaqapha ngawokhozi ukuthi asahamba ngendlela. Ngakhoke, ngalokho, i-EFF ayisiseki.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Luthuli, you are one of the people that always say I speak fast but the way you have been speaking now it seems as if you were just broadcasting on the radio. [Laughter.] But you were just too fast for me.



Ms A D MALEKA: Deputy Chairperson, in the recent past our country witnessed horrific acts of criminality visited upon the women of our country. These incidences of gender-based violence has brought pain to all of us and shocked the whole nation, bringing shame to all of us and especially some men who are perpetrators of these acts of violence.



In the face of this violence the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities held campaigns on violence against women and children and facilitated the process to promote gender- responsive planning, monitoring and evaluation. We believe that the department should continue with the mobilisation of society to deconstruct gender and construct a society based on the values of mutual respect for one another and it particular a society that cares for the most vulnerable members of society who are women, children and elders.



The ANC supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Adjustment Appropriation Bill for this Vote. [Applause.] [Interjections.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 14 — Basic Education — put.



Declarations of vote:


Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, when we send our children to school the expectation is that they are receiving a good education, an education that will enable them to engage as good citizens. When we send our children to school believing that they are safe and protected, on 26 July 2019 the Minister of Basic Education outlined the department’s priorities in the Budget Vote speech adding that the department takes school safety very seriously and that they have prioritised interventions focusing on physical infrastructure, these relating to poor fencing, alarm systems and more.



However, these promises are now ringing hollow for thousands of learners who still lack access to basic infrastructure. Education should be the vehicle out of the poverty trap but the inability of the South African education system to act is once again leaving a bitter taste in our mouth. According to the Media Progress Report, the Accelerated School Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, is sorely lacking. Only 11 new schools have been completed against the department’s annual target of 59. Forty million rand in unspent funds have been declared on the payment of Capital Assets under the



schools infrastructure backlogs grant. This means that projects to provide water and sanitation are not on track as scheduled by the department. The number of school planned for the provision of sanitation facilities are 717, thus far, only 52 have been completed, which means that pit latrines remain a huge issue in schools across the country, still compromising the safety of our children.



The department has stated that they need to replace underperforming service providers that have caused these delays across the country. The question is has the department properly vetted these service providers? And also what kind and what type of consequence management is in place to hold them accountable for the lives and futures of our children? How much more taxpayers’ money must be wasted before the department gets this right?



The department can not blame these failures on inadequate financial resources. The department has received R24,5 billion for the financial year. This is more than the most advanced economies in the world yet South Africa’s education system remains one of the worst performing. The department needs to prioritise this backlog and raise the delivery of these projects in this last quarter. We eagerly encourage the Minister and the department in its endeavours



during the next few months. The DA does not support the budget. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr S F DU TOIT: Bone-chilling screams of traumatised children with fear in their eyes disrupts the laughter on the school grounds in Polokwane. A five-year-old child drowns in a pit latrine in 2014. On

15 March 2018 another five-year-old child died in a primary school in the Eastern Cape after falling into a pit toilet.



Since 2014, two more children died in South Africa’s schools after toilet walls collapsed on them. The Driehoek tragedy is still fresh in our minds, where two boys and a girl died after a concrete slab fell on them and injured 23 other pupils that were rushed to hospital. This happened on 1 February 2019 in Vanderbijlpark. Our prayers go out to the parents that will be spending Christmas without their children.



If the South African government was serious about the lives of our children; if they were serious about human dignity; if they were serious about child safety; and if they really cared about the education system and the future of our country, why then Chair? Why then would they cut the education budget on school infrastructure year on year? Why would they allow and support the fact that



R40 million be cut from the education budget knowing that South Africa has a huge school infrastructure backlog? Why would the South African government allow Schoonspruit Primary School in the North West province to be closed after failing to reconnect the power supply to the school, not allowing the children to have water to drink, and then being bussed to other areas and contributing to the overfilling of schools in other areas?



The national Department of Basic Education intended on spending  R28 million on school sanitation and water improvement projects in the North West province but this indirect grant allocation has been reduced by R19 million to only R9 million for 2019-20.



The truth is that government is making promises to voters and they are paying with the blood of their children. The safety, wellbeing and education of our children is being placed on the backseat.



The Auditor-General mentioned that a lack of skills is one of the biggest challenges in government departments. These unskilled cadres are depriving the children of a future. They deprive them of getting the necessary education and skills that they need. If only they gave as much effort to the safety of our children as they are on trying



to corrupt the children’s minds with the proposed amended curriculum on sex education. The FF Plus does not support Vote 14.





Mr M E NCHABELENG: Ke a leboha Motlatsi wa Modulasetulo. Kannete bothata ba thuto ya tshireletso dikolong ke ntho e monahanong wa mokgatlo wa ANC. E a re tshwenya jwaloka mokgatlo o busang. Ke kahoo matsatsi a fetileng Mopresidente a thakgotseng projeke e bitswang Safe ...





 ... because some people don’t really listen to what progress the government is making in solving problems to an extent that they ... even when information is in the public domain they fail to remember it because their minds are tuned to negativity.





Motlatsi wa Modulasetulo mmuso wa ANC o ntshitse tjhelete e lekanang le dibilione tse R3,8. Tjhelete eo e reretswe ho lokisa ...





 ... 82 inappropriate and unsafe schools in the country and then provide water and sanitation to 325 and 286 schools, respectively.



In addition, the education infrastructure grant is allocated  R31,7 billion to build new schools, upgrade and maintain existing infrastructure and provide school furniture. What other commitment would you accept that shows the commitment of a government in solving problems? To put structures and allocate funding to ensure that project takes place.





Motlatsi wa Modulasetulo, taba ya tekolo le tshekatsheko e kena hona moo hore re shebe hore ha itse re tlo aha dikolo tse 82 ...





... how far are we? Of course ...





... Mokgatlo wa EFF ha o bone ...





 ... necessity for monitoring and evaluation. To them that thing does not exist. We are committed as the ANC to making the school environment even safer for our children.






Re tla tswela pele ho kenya tshebetsong ...





 ... the programmes to save our children and our education. [Applause.]



Division demanded.



The Council divided.



Mr A B GOYIYA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: This matter was raised and should be emphasised, it is not a joke. Let the hon members stop raising two hands. The hon member with the red overall there will always be raising two hands and it is not a joke. We are not playing here. It is hon Mathevula who behaves in an unhonourable way.




AYES: 36: Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Dodovu, T S C; Gillion, M N; Gxoyiya, A B; Landsman, E R; Mahasela M A; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mamaregane, M L; Maseko, F J; Masondo, N A; Matibe, T B; Mfayela, S E; Mkiva, Z; Mmoiemang, K M; Mmola, M P; Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Mohammed K S; Moshodi, M L; Mthethwa, M E;



Nchabeleng, M E; Ncitha, Z V; Ndongeni, N; Ngwenya, W; Njandu, E J; Ntshangase, N B; Pillay, R R; Rayi, M I; Seomo M R; Shaikh, S; Smit, H C; Vimbayo, K; Zungu, N.



NOES: 16: Arnolds, A; Aucamp, W A S; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; Cloete, A B; Du Toit, S F; Labuschagne, C; Londt, J J; Luthuli, S A; Mokause M O; Mathevula, B T; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai, K; Sileku, I M.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 15 – Higher Education - put



Declarations of vote:


Mr M KHALID-SAYE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, our Department of Higher Education and Training was established in 2009 with the primary goal of providing education and training opportunities to all South Africans who are out of school to acquire further education and skills that they require. We continue to demonstrate that our education remains a priority with for the ANC. It is clear that skills development and empowerment of the youth forms the critical element of ensuring that youth unemployment is addressed. This is



because the ANC government is fulfilling the call of the historic Freedom Chatter for free education with its basis on merit. First year students from poor background continue to receive free education across out higher education institutions.



The National Develop Plan 2030, NDP, sets our goals for addressing our country’s challenges and articulate the role that higher education has to play in advancing the economy of South Africa. We see that in Chapter 9 of the NDP the position of education, training and innovation as central to the overall NDP goals. These areas contribute to productivity which enhances economy growth. While not a solution to all our problems, we find that education, training and innovation are needed to solve our challenges to develop inclusive economy and to eliminate poverty and reduce inequality. It is a well established fact that higher education is the major driver of knowledge systems that must be linked to our economic development as a country and as a continent.



In line with the dictates of the envisaged technological advancement under the rubric of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, we have established a ministerial task team on the Fourth Industrial Revolution to provide critical policy advice and interventions required to ensure that our postscholl education and training system



is able to response to effectively and also to take a lead in many of the envisaged technological advancements.



The outputs from the ministerial task team will constitute input into both the work of the Presidential Commission on the Fourth Industrial Revolution. It is also important that we do not leave such work only in the hands of our government institutions like the National Institute for the Humanities and Social Sciences which needs to catalyse research into implications of technological advancement under the rubric of the Fourth Industrial Revolution for humanity and for humanities.



It is also important that in all the work that we do in this particular House we         also advance the transformation of race and gender. Not only in terms of demographics of students ... [Time expired. [Applause.]



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, South Africa is evolving into a dynamic higher education landscape influenced by our economy and the world. Often a university degree is not what is needed in the industry, but a more practical approached teaching and leaning. The ideal place for practical education with skilling and reskilling is Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, and



community colleges. It is therefore intersecting that TVET colleges remain and area of concern. The number of new artisans projected for enrolment for the year is 30 000, yet only 7 354 have registered to date. The number of artisans to qualify is projected at 24 000 thus far only 2 894 have qualified. The number of work-based opportunities projected is 165 000 with only 6 444 placed thus far. An amount of R4 million in unspent funds has been declared due to slow spending by technical and vocational educational and training institutions.



An amount of R129,6 million unspent fund under programme 4 is also of great concern as post are nit being filled. Why are these funds not being utilised in order to further promote and develop TVET college infrastructure, especially proper housing facilities? Most TVET college students have to find their own often unsafe accommodation like the young woman , Precious Ramabulana, who was raped and stabbed 52 times in her rented room while studying at Capricorn TVET college in Limpopo.



Furthermore, the success or failure of University College students is largely based on the availability of funds I the academic year. The National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, has been plagued with administrative issues for several years and it does not seem to



have abated. The Auditor-General gave the scheme a qualified audit for the previous year under review. The National Student Financial Aid Scheme declared accumulated irregular expenditure of

R7,5 billion erroneous this business continued during this entire academic year.



Over R60 billion has been set aside for prospective students for the next three years. Our concern is that after six top level NSFAS resignations this year , two suspensions this year and at least one other top level resignation is on the card, including one resignation of the manager administering TVET college bursaries, how will NSFAS be yet to assist our students come January 2020.



We want NSFAS to succeed to assist our young people and change the lives of many who could not afford to register at the higher instructions of learning. We will eagerly be monitoring its administration in the year. The DA does not support the budget.

Thank you. [Applause.]





Mnr A B CLOETE: Voorsitter, nog ’n jaar, en die Minister en sy departement se miskenning van taalregte op kampusse wys dat die ANC ’n slegs-Engelse Suid-Afrikaanse onderwysstelsel wil vestig.



Ek sê dit vir al ons taalgebruikers hierso – ons Afrikaanse kollegas, ons Sesotho, ons Setswana, ons IsiXhosa en selfs ons Engelse kollegas: Solank as wat studente se keuses om onderrig in hulle taal te ontvang van hulle weggeneem word, is ons studente nie vry nie.



Ontwikkel ons tale se vermoë om wetenskaps- en hoë funksie tale te word. Beskerm ons taalregte reeds op skool- en universiteitsvlakke. Leer kinders en studente om hulself met gemak in hulle eie taal uit te druk op kampus, op skool en waar hulle gaan.



Ons vra gelyke geleenthede vir alle tale, nie net een nie. Daarom kan die VF Plus nie hierdie aanwas steun nie.



Mnr A ARNOLDS: Ondervoorsitter, die EFF erken die belangrike rol wat hoër onderwys en opleiding speel, veral in studente wat uitsien daarna om, nadat hulle matriek klaargemaak het, aan die einde van die dag vaardighede te kan aanleer.



Hulle sien uit daarna om, aan die einde van die dag, waneer hulle daardie vaardighede klaar aangeleer het op hierdie hoër onderwysinstellings en opleidingsinstellings, ingeneem te word en werk te kry.



Die realiteit vandag is egter dat baie van hierdie instellings ons studente teleur stel.



Wat ons graag ook wil vra is hoe dit moontlik is dat ’n provinsiale Minister van Onderwys in KwaZulu-Natal R90 000 betaal vir motorhuur uitgawes, terwyl daar ’n nood is in ons onderwysstelsel ten opsigte van fondse.



Dan, een van die brandende kwessies wat student kwel is die gebrek aan huisvesting. Die vraag vandag in hierdie deklarasie is wanneer die ANC-geleide regering ’n plan gaan maak sodat studente nie in onveilige situasies beland of selfs nie huisvesting kan bekom nie.



Dan, die ander ding wat ek wil noem is dat ons moet verseker dat ons waarde vir geld kry uit hierdie instellings wat veronderstel is om die beste uit ons leerders te ontgin.



Die EFF kan nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie.





Division demanded.



The Council divided



AYES-35 [Take in from minutes]



NOES-18 [Take in from minutes]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, welcome back from lunch and I think we should continue.



Vote 16 – Health – put.



Declarations of vote:


Ms M N GILLION: Hon Deputy Chair, the ANC rises in support of the 2019 Adjustment Appropriation Bill. The ANC welcomes the fact that health continues to be a priority for Adjustment Appropriation and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement accounting for 13,9% of the total consolidated expenditure. We equally support the move towards Universal Coverage through the rolling out of the National Health Insurance, NHI. We note the challenges existing in the implementation of the NHI, some of which include but are not limited



to the poor performance of the NHI condition of grant; continued chains in the provision of NHI from the a direct to indirect grant; an ongoing policy and uncertainties with respect to the role of various players; the flow of funding and applicable health package.



The ANC calls on government to intensify efforts to resolve challenges existing in the implementation of the NHI because in the main the NHI is aimed at providing good healthcare for all by sharing the country’s health resources amongst all our people. The ANC supports this Adjustment Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]





Mnu I M SILEKU: Sekela Sihlalo, iSebe lezeMpilo lijongene nemiceli- mngeni emininzi. Omnye wayo ziinkonzo eziza ebantwini ezinganelisiyo, ukungabikho koogqirha abaneleyo nabongikazi, ukungafumaneki kwamayeza neepilisi kwindawo zonyango. Abantu bayahlala kula maziko empilol ekubeni bevuke ngeentseni. Bafika bahlale kuba belindele kufumana uncedo kude kutshone ilanga, bahambe bengadibananga noogqirha.



Enye into esikhathaza ngamandla yile yokuba kwezi nyanga zintandathu zidlulileyo, isebe eli liye lachitha nganeno kwimali ebeliyabelwe ngemali engama-R246 ezigidi. Loo nto ithetha ukuba abantu bakuthi



baneenkonzo abangazifumanyo ebekumele ukuba bayazifumana ngenxa yokuba imali ingasetyenziswa ngendlela efanelekileyo.



Loo nto isinika umceli-mngeni xa sijonge kwi-Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe esinethemba lokuba izakunika abantu amathuba okufumana uncedo lwezempilo. Ukuba kuthi xa kuchithwa imali kubekho ukungahloniphi nokungabinambeko kwimfuno zabantu, kwayona i- Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe iyakufana namampunge, ingaze yenzeke.



Sekela Sihlalo, le nto iyakhathaza kuba uMphathiswa wezeZimali, ohloniphekileyo uTito Mboweni xa ephendula umbuzo kamhlonitshwa uRyder kule Ndlu uthe, akakwazi ukutsho ukuba i-Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe izakuxabisa malini. Okwesibini uthe, kufuneka singalindi le Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe ukuze sinike abantu iinkonzo zempilo.



Ukuba imali iphathwa gwenxa ngamaphondo athile, loo nto ithetha ukuba sibeka onke amaphupha namathemba kwi-Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe engazukukwazi ukuzifezekisa ezo zinto. Siyi-DA sithi, asiluxhasi olu hlahlo lwabiwo-mali ngenxa yokuba abantu xa bengakwazi ukusebenzisa imali abayinikiweyo, leliphi eli themba sinalo lokuba i-Inshorensi yezeMpilo yeSizwe izakukwazi ukuzifezekisa ezo zinto. Siyabulela.



Mr S E MFAYELA: Hon Madam Deputy Chair, while the IFP is supporting the Bill, allow me to raise some issues for the Minister to consider. Our public health system is in the current stage of deterioration with the commitment by the government to introduce the National Health Insurance, NHI scheme in a few years time requires a solid based public health policy system to be successful.



It is no use promising better system to South Africans and getting their hopes high for better public system when at current there are major obstacles to overcome. We cannot follow the same trend of legislation introduced by cabinet where it has major flaws and then takes the work of the entire country to bring amendment to in order to fix errors and mistakes by the government. For this reason, hon Deputy Chair, I would like to know what budget the Minister or the department has allocated to employ all the public service nurses who contracted to the state due to the educational funding being paid for them but the state then does not have the job yet. When will they be employed considering the promise that the committee said they would be absorbed by early next year? With all that I have said Madam Deputy Chair, I support the Bill. [Applause.]



Mr A B CLOETE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, this year we have seen extremely or extreme policy uncertainties regarding our national



health sector. Although the National Development Plan, NDP, suggests many other health options to improve healthcare in South Africans, the ANC decided to borne a new one. The ANC decided that the NHI is the answer to our health crisis. This utopia will ultimately become dystopia.



It is evident from the fact Treasury already takes away from NHI money in provinces that was meant for the initial implementation. In fact, Treasury can still not indicate what NHI will cost and how it will be funded. Of course we all want universal health care for all and nobody is against that but this department is making promises it will not be able to give and the FF Plus cannot support this adjustment.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the EFF notes with great concern the continuous deterioration of the healthcare system in the country which the department is also forever changing the HODs in the hospitals but there is no improvement. The department does not even have a plan to employ more nurses; train doctors and other allied health workers. We have seen in the majority of the hospitals where even when the budget is allocated it is more focussing on paying accrual than the actual delivering of services. We have been throughout the country where the department does not even have



vehicles to transport patients from the rural areas to tertiary hospitals. So, the department does not have plans even if the budget is allocated to, to manage this budget and allocate it accordingly. So, we do not support the budget.






Question put.






During Voting


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathevula, the next time I speak to you really we will have to take action. You will know. No, this is not right.



Agreed to.






Declarations of vote:


Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Deputy Chairperson, recently during the portfolio committee meeting Members of Parliament voiced their doubts over the



Department of Social Development’s promise that it would resolve more than 89 000 foster care court orders by the end of November.



There are currently more than 416 000 children who benefit from the foster care system in South Africa. Of these, 89 538 orders were needed by the end of August. The Pretoria High Court made 89 538 cases valid until 28 November. This has allowed payment to continue until then. In the mean time social workers were still applying to the children’s court to have these and new orders extended beyond the court’s protection period.



The centre for child law has been at logger heads with the department to have the issue resolved for a number of years now. In 2011, it filed an urgent application with the Pretoria High Court against the Minister of Social Development. Three years apart, the centre and the department found themselves in court again in 2014. The court ruled that by December 2017, a comprehensive solution needed to be found.



However, the deadline approached in October 2017 and the centre went to court again. It argued that the Minister’s failure to produce a comprehensive legal solution was unconstitutional, unlawful and invalid.



In November 2017 the court granted a 24 month extension to continue payment and management of more than 200 000 foster care orders that were due to lapse. This deadline was this past end of November.



In the Eastern Cape, there are 93 127 children in the foster care system, 18 065 orders that have lapsed. In Gauteng 9 900 outstanding

cases, Free State 6 400, Limpopo 5 300, North West 8 600, Western


Cape 8 500, Northern Cape 1 100, Mpumalanga 929 and KwaZulu-Natal, the highest at 29 400 orders still outstanding. No additional budget was given to address to this back log. With the department’s

R70 million unspent funds in certain areas this past year, these additional funds could have been made available to solve the foster care crisis.



During these 16 days of activism, when the plight of our vulnerable women and children are once again highlighted, we make an urgent plea to the department and the court to place more energy and effort into resolving this dire crisis. The DA therefore does not support the budget.



Ms N NDONGENI: Chairperson, the social development budget is a critical one and it uplifts our people and allows them to empower themselves. This sector helps create a safety net to protect the



poor and the most vulnerable in our society. It ensures that there is a substantive contribution to the protection of the dignity of our people in particular the poor and the most vulnerable.



The adjustments of the social development vote of funds are to ensure protection against vulnerability by creating an unstable environment for the provision of the comprehensive integrated and sustainable social development services. Almost half of this consolidated spending of government goes towards social grants that it continues to receive one of the largest allocations in government. This is precisely because of the importance responsible that it has contributed towards development and empowerment of our people.



Government is stepping up its effort to combat the increased gender- based violence and femicide cases that are confronting our country, the social development has a central responsibility in partnership with the department to promote an integrated intervention, to improve awareness in education, support victims and increase access to justice.



We support the vehement that has been made within the department to ensure that it effetely and efficiently contribute towards the



government, priority of fighting the gender-based violence and femicide.



We also welcome the prioritisation of early childhood development. We know that higher allocation for the early childhood development grant skills in provinces will over the medium term increase the per child subsidy and broaden access. Funds will also be reprioritised over the medium into the provincial equitable share to continue the rollout of sanitary towels to the learners from low income households, the poorest in schools. The ANC supports the adjustment vote for social development.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, this department is one of the crucial departments in South Africa. If it was led properly, if there was political will within this department, we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about not supporting this budget.



The social welfare in this country has been in chartered since the dawn of democracy. We have seen programmes of alcohol abuse, programmes that are aimed at removing or ailing girl children from the abuse that they are facing collapsing in this country but this is all because lack of political will within this department.



They have redirecting funds to ANC Women’s League political programmes and neglecting programmes that are aimed at salvaging the youth of this country from alcohol abuse and abuse in general.



When are we going to see welfare programmes in this country implemented properly and guided properly? Soup kitchens have been funded by this department but they ultimately land in wrong hands. They land in certain political party’s hands, and that is why they are collapsing.



Community health care workers which are aimed at assisting communities on the ground end up not being paid well by this department because the monies that are aimed at community workers land in wrong hands and they land in tenderpreneurs belonging to the ANC. Therefore, we don’t support.



Agreed to.



Vote 18 – Correctional Services – put.



Question put.






Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.



Question put.



Division demanded.



The Council divided.









Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Vote 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.



Question put.



Division demanded.



The Council divided.









Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Vote 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.



Question put.



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote 22 – Office of The Chief Justice and Judicial Administration - put.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Any objections? DA - none! FF- Plus – none! EFF?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: We would like to put it on record that we support this Budget Vote and we would like to make a declaration.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mogoeng Mogoeng would love you. IFP – supports! ANC? Since all the parties are supporting, Vote 22 is carried. [Applause.]



Ms M O MOKAUSE: But, we said we want to make a declaration.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You didn’t say! So, hon members


... Luthuli, I have never seen you so out of order my dear; I am very disappointed in you. Hon members of the EFF, did you say you want to make a declaration on it? [Interjections.] I am sorry, I didn’t hear you. I am sorry. Do you still want to make the declaration? [Interjections.] I apologised for the fact that I didn’t hear you. So, that is why I am asking: Do you still want to do the declarations? [Interjections.] Continue!



Declarations of Vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF takes the importance of independence of the judiciary very serious. We will guard that independence with all that we have. The courts have often been the last line of defence for the people of this country whose future was



put at risk by a group of self-serving leaders whose only interest was to line up their pockets and steal from the state resources belonging to the public.



One of the very few good things after 1994 was a proclamation of the Office of the Chief Justice as a department. This is to ensure an independent judiciary-led court administration system in order to fully realise the judiciary institutional independence in line with the Constitution and the Superior Court Act of 2013. For this reason, there must be no reason whatsoever that the Office of the Chief Justice should at any time fail to do its work because of shortage of funds.



If we are all serious about the independence of the judiciary, we must begin to ask ourselves some serious questions. If the judiciary is dependent on Parliament and the Minister of Finance for its budget allocation, what will then happen when Parliament and the executive go rogue? As they are beginning to be with the Office of the Public Protector, what will happen when they refuse to finance the Office of the Chief Justice sufficiently like they are doing with the Office of the Public Protector?



We know that the allocation of Budget is deeply politicised in this country. When Thuli Madonsela wanted money for investigating Mr Zuma on state capture, Mr Jamnandas Gordhan gave her that money without question. Now, when Busisiwe Mkhwebane wants money to conduct investigations on Cyril Ramaphosa, she is denied money. Our submission therefore is that we must be in a position where the Office of the Chief Justice can give its budget estimates and the National Treasury must be in no position to refuse. [Time expired.] We do support the budget.



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chair, as articulated by our forebears, personal liberties and freedom can only be guaranteed if judicial power is separated from legislative and executive power. The ANC has always advocated for separation of powers and an independent judiciary. The 52nd ANC National Conference resolved that the Chief Justice, as head of the judicial authority, should exercise authority and responsibility over the development and implementation of norms and standards for the exercise of judicial functions such as the allocation of judges, cases and court rooms within all the court systems and administration of courts, including any allocation of resources, financial management and policy matter relating to the administration of justice.



The Constitutions’ 17th amendment entrench the independence of the court and acknowledges the Chief Justice as the head of the judiciary who exercise responsibility over the establishment and monitoring of norms and standards for the exercise of the judicial functions of all courts.



Budget Vote 22 as a separate vote is a reflection of the ANC’s commitment to the doctrine of separation of powers. [Interjections.] The judiciary-led independent court administration entrench some judicial governance. Since 2015-16, the Office of the Chief Justice has been receiving unqualified audit outcomes. In 2017-18 it improved and obtained a clean audit opinion and has since maintained this outcome. This is indeed commendable.



In the financial year 2018-19, the Office of the Chief Justice was allocated R2,1 billion. It also received an additional R2 million for the facilitation of the appointment and training of judicial officers. The Office of the Chief Justice spent 8,7% of the total allocation, which resulted in the total underspending of

R27,6 million.



On 8 November 2019, South Africans witnessed the official opening of the Mpumalanga High Court in Mbombela. The opening of this court is



in line with the 52nd ANC National Conference resolution and there must be at least one division of the High Court in each province so that our people can have increased access to justice, which is also contained in section 34 of our Bill of Rights.



Today, all nine provinces have at least one High Court. Funding for the courts is expected to increase from R28,1 million to

R33,4 million in 2021. We should also put on record that the ANC takes steps with reference to people who are involved in corrupt practices, even in the case of VBS; whereas the EFF does not. [Interjections.] When material evidence has also been found against their members, they don’t take steps. The ANC supports the vote.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Hon members, I just want to put it on record that because of the oversight, the EFF wanted a declaration. We had to go back there, but this vote is already carried.



Vote agreed to.



Vote No 23 – Police – put.



Declarations of vote:



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chair, R700 million in unspent funds is being taken away from the Police due to the non-implementation of the government 7-Point Plan for the Criminal Justice System. This money comes from detective services and is made up of R119 million being taken away from crime investigation, R138 million being taken away from the criminal record centre and R442 million being taken away from the Forensic Science Laboratory.



These are the guides who need to ensure that criminal cases reach the court in such a way that it can be successfully prosecuted. The National Director of Public Prosecutions in October this year indicated that prosecution rates for serious crimes have been lowest at 2% and there was a decrease of more than 10% in cases that reach the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. This is entirely due to the fact that crime investigation is not functioning as it should and this government want to take away R700 million from it. This is why the police still don’t have the basics such as adequate vehicles to do their job. Our economy loses R8 billion a year in banking fraud while the Hawks Unit is underfunded and most importantly the SAPS still show an inability to deal with gangsterism, farm murders, other murders and rape.



It comes down to priorities and judging by adjustment budget, it is not the priority of the ANC government to protect the people of South Africa or clean up the SAPS for criminals in that mess. We do not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chair, the Department of Police, men and women in blue are placing their lives in danger on a daily basis to put bread on the table. The department’s purpose is to prevent and combat and investigate crime, maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of South Africa and their properties and uphold and enforce the law.



Crime in South Africa is at all time high. The following are just a few statistics for the year 2018-19 that the National Treasury might have overlooked when they cut the Police budget. About 1,3 million incidents of house breaking occurred that reflected more than

900 000 households in South Africa. An estimated 264 000 incidents of home robberies occurred. A total of 69 896 incidents of delivery damaging, burning or destruction of residential dwellings affecting

53 000 households occurred. Just think how many children were traumatised by that. An estimated 1,24 million incidents of theft of personal properties occurred. According to a United Nations report that was conducted in South Africa, only 35% of the whole population



felt safe walking in their neighbourhoods during day time. In other words, the current South African population is being about

58,8 million people of which only 38 million feels safe during day time.



Deputy Chair, is this the freedom that we want? Is this the freedom we as South Africans deserve? This Bill removes R764 million from detective services. Deputy Chair, how is this possible, how our detectives suppose to operate if they are not capacitated to do their work. Parliament supports the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence against women and children. Is this just to stay in the public eye? In real life, men, women and children are victims of crime on a daily basis. Farmers are attacked and tortured, white and black. How are the Police Force supposed to conduct their duties if the Budget is cut? The criminal justice system is hampered because of, amongst others, the police investigation reports, as a result, criminals are not prosecuted and they are released back into the society.



Yet the R764 million is cut from the detective services budget, one may ask if the government is protecting itself from being investigated. At least, one Minister has been arrested for fraud activities during the past 25 years. This is in spite of the fact



that the government purse has been looted. The FF Plus does not support this Budget Vote.



Ms S SHAIKH: Deputy Chairperson, the President has outlined seven priorities for the Sixth Administration during the state of the nation address in June this year. Amongst these priorities is to focus on social cohesion and create safe communities. This is intended to build a country where all people are safe and feel safe. It means ensuring continuous police visibility and the improvement of success rate in investigation and prosecutions of crimes.



The President offer outlines the need to strengthen the National Prospecting Authority to fight crime and corruption in our society. Deputy Chairperson, the movement of funds within this budget are not done willingly. In actual fact, it is done to respond to urgent need as well as to align funds to priorities outlined by the President.



In the detective services, an amount of R64 million has been transferred to the Department of Justice and Correctional Services to enhance capacity in the National Prosecuting Authority. [Applause.] [Interjections.]



Some of the unspent funds have been reprioritised to the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service for compensation of employees due to vacant posts. This is welcomed as it ensures that enough human resources are further added to the Police Service to fight crime and corruption in our society.



In aligning with the Integrated Criminal Justice Strategy, funds were further reprioritised in this regard. Deputy Chairperson, the DA should not come to this House and claim higher moral ground. [Applause.] In fact, crime is rising in the Western Cape. There are over incidences where they have held meetings in the past with gangs and they can’t even arrest such gangsters.



Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Justice Appropriation for this Bill. [Applause.]



Division demanded.



The Council divided.






Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.



Declarations of vote:




Mnr W A S AUCAMP: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, die kwessie rondom droogtehulp het die DA nou al op verskeie vlakke en verskeie keer in Suid-Afrika aangespreek. Ek persoonlik het in hierdie Huis dit ook al met President Ramaphosa, Adjunkpresident Mabuza, asook Minister Didiza aangespreek. Elkeen van hulle het onderneem dat hulle ons boere se probleme met die droogte as ’n prioriteit sal hanteer. Dit het ongelukkig nie gebeur nie en dit is duidelik in hierdie begroting sigbaar.



Die beskikbaarstelling van fondse om hierdie droogte se effek op ons boere te verlig skiet ver te kort. Ons boere — wit, swart en bruin, groot of klein — is tesame een van die grootste verskaffers van werk in Suid-Afrika. Ons boere is ook die ruggraat van voedelsekerheid in Suid-Afrika. Hulle móét daarom gehelp en beskerm word.



Die regering se aksies ... of liewer, die regering se niks-doen en tekort aan vroegtydige en spoedige optrede met betrekking tot hulpverlening aan ons boere getuig van die regering se absolute minagting van ons boere en ons plaaswerkers.



Dit het werklik nou tyd geword dat hierdie regering die waarde van ons boerdery gemeenskappe moet besef en daardie besef begin uitleef. Dit moet raakgesien word dat hierdie boere ’n konkrete deel van ons land se ekonomie uitmaak. Hierdie boere moet waardeer word en hulle moet gehelp word. Sonder ons boere kan hierdie land nie bestaan nie.



As gevolg van dit, kan die DA nie hierdie begroting ondersteun nie.





Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, ons sit met ’n vreeslike krisis in die land. Ek het in ’n komiteevergadering twee weke terug ook genoem dat die droogtehulpfonds weggevat is van die Noord-wes provinsie as gevolg van wanbesteding.



Ek het met die LUR van Finansies gepraat wat aan my genoem het dat die relevant afdeling ook glad nie enige planne ingedien het wat addisionele droogtehulpfondse aanvra nie.



Dit is kommerwekkend.



Soos ons in die verlede al gesê het, die landbousektor is die ruugraat van die platteland.





The communities need to have the agricultural sector there. They need farmers there. As a result of that there is employment and small businesses are thriving. And at the moment, with the farmers struggling as a result of drought, it has a negative effect on everyone. People are unemployed. Farmers are not able to look after their animals. I think there is a misconception when I speak about farmers. We have farmers of all races in South Africa.



The main concern is that government up until now has not come to the party with regard to drought relief. A gentleman from Treasury alluded that the communities and farmers must adapt to the drought that we are currently having in South Africa. That is unacceptable. After the discussion he apologised and said I was too sensitive towards the matter. Farmers can’t adapt Chair. They can’t adapt to the drought. We must see to it that the necessary support is given to the farmers in our country. And the FF Plus will continue to fight for that support to come.





Ons sal aanhou veg om toe te sien dat die landbouers van Suid-Afrika die nodige hulp kry wat hul toekom want dit is daar vir die voortbestaan van die hele land. Ons het voedselsekerheid nodig.




Ms T C MODISE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, there can be no doubt that the ANC policies are progressive. And it is found in the purpose of this vote, which is to lead and support and promote agricultural, forestry and fisheries resource management through these policies; strategies and programmes to enhance sustainability used to achieve economic growth; to create jobs, food security and rural development and transformation. The most important commitment of all our citizens are to ensure that we grow the economy that creates jobs






 ... jaaka Moporesidente a ile a baya melao ya gagwe gore o ile go tlhola dimilione tsa ditirelo. Ga aka a bua fela ...





... he put his tongue into practice.





Ga a tshwane le ba bangwe ba eleng gore ba tswelela go bua fela mme ba sa dire sepe. [Tsenoganong.]





The ANC acknowledges the challenges faced by the department that has recently reconfigured to ensure that all the resources pull together to enhance government’s ability to address them. The right to food is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, section 27 of our Constitution. [Applause.] ... [Inaudible.] is the supreme law of our country. It is through the transformation of agricultural sector that the ANC government seeks to ensure that all citizens of our country have adequate food. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Not just any food but healthy food.





Eseng jaaka ba bangwe ba neng ba dira mo malobeng, mo pusong ya kgatelelo.





We commend the department’s programme on agricultural food and food safety. The various outbreaks on animal health disease in the past



caused a great anxiety and scare amongst our people. And we take a serious note of a speedily response by the department before ...





... e tsenelela ko teng. Ke puso e e feteletsweng ke mmuso wa ANC.





It makes sure that before ...





... go direga sengwe, ya tsiboga.





The rehabilitation of our forestry is very important in our forest and it is an important role to play in mitigating the effect of climate change. It is serious concern to us as the ANC in Parliament to see a number of white fires destroying our trees and endangering our animals. As the ANC, we support. [Applause.] [Time expired.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put



Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Vote 26 – Energy, the purpose of this Vote is to formulate energy policies to regulatory frameworks, legislation and oversee to ensure energy security ... [Interjections.] ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): ... hon Du Toit,


Economic Development ... [Laughter.]



Mr S F DU TOIT: I apologise, Deputy Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): So, you don’t


have a declaration?



Mr S F DU TOIT: Not on Economic Development. Thank you, Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Okay. Hon members


... I must ... you want me to explain? We don’t have a lot of time, but there was a little bit of confusion between Energy and Economic Development. That is what happened there. That is why I was just making sure whether the member was taking on the correct vote.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 26 – Energy – put



Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. The purpose of this Vote is to formulate energy policies, regulate frameworks legislation and oversee to ensure energy security, the promotion of our environmentally friendly energy carriers and access to affordable and reliable energy for all South Africans.





Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, volgens die 2019 nasionale makro-organisasie


... regering, moet die Departement van Energie asook die Departement van Minerale Hulpbronne teen 2020 saamgesmelt wees. Maar, hierdie begroting het tot gevolg dat die Departement van Energie gedoem is om te faal. Moontlik kan dit toegeskryf word aan die onkundiges wat nie op meriete aangestel is nie, aangesien die Ouditeur-generaal dit herhaaldelik duidelik maak dat daar ’n tekort aan vaardighede is.



Hoe is dit moontlik om R3 miljoen opsetlik op die energie beplannings-beleid te onderspandeer wetend dat Suid-Afrika, ’n land



met ’n wankelrige ekonomie, beleggers as gevolg van die verdagte kragvoorsiening afskrik. Ons sal vandag in Suid-Afrika sien dat beurtkrag weer begin het.





How was it possible, Deputy Chair, that government allowed R250 million to be moved away from electrification and energy

programme and project managements? We need to plan. There need to be projects. We are sitting in a dire state and yet money is being moved away. Is it not the core function of this department; to formulate policies, regulating frameworks; and very important, ensuring energy security? The energy department is on a downward slope, Chair, and the brakes are disconnected. Maybe it is the result of lack of skills.



The Freedom Front Plus appoint people on the basis of merit only, plan accordingly, plan ahead and allow skilled and qualified people the opportunity to help build this beautiful country.





Voorsitter, die onvermoë om te reguleer, en die onvermoë om te beplan en te bestuur het tot gevolg dat die ligte in Suid-Afrika sal



afgaan. Die instelling van beurtkrag is af. Dit is ’n duidelike voorbeeld daarvan.





The Freedom Front Plus does not support Vote 26.







seker julle het nie ’n declaration [verklaring] nie?





You are ... [Inaudible.] The IFP, you don’t have a declaration. The ANC?



Ms M L MOSHODI: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. The ANC congratulates the department for gazetting the Integrated Resource Plan, our country’s blue print to achieve security of energy supply through an energy mix of devised technology up to 2030. Coal will continue to play a significant role in electricity generation as we have it in abundance.



However, given the economic challenges that South Africa is currently experiencing and a global transition from fossil fuel to



renewable resources of energy, the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, also offers a ... [Inaudible.] ... opportunity for investment and stability in the energy supply. The ANC is concerned about the R250 million in an unspent fund allocated to Eskom Integrated

National Electrification Programme. The ANC calls on the department to provide capacity building support to municipalities struggling to implement the electrification programme. Perhaps as part of the oversight, Parliament must help government to find solutions to the challenges that has been identified, which includes; the implementation of grid connection in some municipalities starting late due to the municipal financial year being July to June, the lack of wholistic infrastructure to ensure that the networks are extended in the most effective manner, backlog in the deep rural areas where installation costs are much higher, lack of skills and resources in municipality to play and manage this large electrification project and long procurement processes in both Eskom and municipality delaying the start and completion of the project and the escalation of costs.



As the ANC we are pleased that government is developing the Petroleum Resources Development Bill which will ensure policy certainty for upstream petroleum sector. This sector has ... [Inaudible.] ... potential to grow our GDP and create the much



needed jobs. The Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, must be seen wholistically with other major government policy initiative that seeks to revoke the South African economy. Amongst them are; the road map of Eskom in a reformed electricity supply industry released by the Department of Public Enterprise, the economy transformation inclusive probe and competitiveness released by the National Treasury. [Time expired.] The EFF and the DA are unable to ... The ANC support ... [Inaudible.] ... [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, a declaration is three minutes. Can we now go to the vote.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, it is three o’clock, can we have a five minutes comfort break? Members, I don’t want us to waste time if it is not necessary. However, if really there are some of the people that cannot just sit like this

... - you know it – so, we allow five minutes comfort break and already it is two minutes past three, so, seven minutes past three you must be back here.






Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 28 – Labour – put.



Declarations of vote:


Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy Chair, every quarter, unemployment is on the rise - bringing about more and more citizens becoming dependent on social grants and standing on street corners begging in order to survive. All the plans devised by the ANC to revive or to reignite the economy and to create jobs have borne them absolutely no fruits. Why is it so? It is because the ANC as the ruling party remains embedded in the rhetoric of its own revolution. South Africa has an abundance of natural resources, skills and enterprises but the majority remain in poverty. Twenty five years ago, at the beginning of democracy, South Africa was one of the most admired countries sitting with an abundance of international goodwill to have sustained a rate of economic growth but alas, instead of



capitalising on all the positives, the ANC has put us all on a road to absolute destruction through the implementation of new bad laws.



The National Minimum Wage Act is one such law which is working against and not for those who are most needy of employment as they have systematically being priced out of the labour market. With the DA proposed “Job’s Act”, we can stimulate the economy to benefit South Africans as the Act covers many interventions which will lead to the creation of jobs.



Hon Deputy Chair, what is now needed to boost the economy is strong leadership – leadership that is not afraid to stand up to the unions which are holding this country to ransom and implementing workable plans such as the report tabled by the Minister of Finance. Another aspect that needs urgent attention is the fact that this department needs to be taken to task for having an unspent budget. How is it at all possible that the department which professes to look after those who are most vulnerable has underspent on its budget? On the Community Work Programme, an amount of R300 million went unspent.

This could have gone as long way to alleviate poverty. Hundred and seventy five million rands was unspent on the Job’s Fund. This is why South Africa has one of the highest unemployment rate in the world, especially amongst our youth.



This is a slap in the face of the unemployed, and it is totally unacceptable. [Time expired.] Considering the above, the DA cannot support. The three minutes is not yet finished.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, really, on this one


– I am electronic. I am not the clock, the clock is here and it is showing that your time is up. Don’t come here and argue with me about time, that one I won’t tolerate. The EFF, do you have a declaration, if not, the ANC can proceed.





Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Motlatsamodulasetilo ...





There is nothing rhetorical about the phenomena of the labour growth beating employment that is creating unemployment. The fact that labour growth beat employment growth does not mean that the economy has not created jobs, but the inability of job creation to absorb the increasing growing labour force is a matter that has to be appreciated. The ANC party recognises that the nation’s greatest resource is people; therefore it is the working-class that ensures that our country’s economy continues to grow. For this important fact, the ANC government will continue to ensure that the



relationship between the employer and the employee is enhanced so that it can be able to contribute effectively towards a South Africa that is growing together. It is this democratic Parliament that has ensured that a progressive labour regime is in place so that we are able to ensure that we cushion the effect and the general wellbeing of vulnerable workers.



In order to ensure that employment across board comply with labour laws and pay employees what is rightfully due to them, sectoral determination laws must be heavily enforced without hesitation. We need to ensure that indeed the SA Revenue Service, Sars, provide us with a good model of effecting inspection and compliance unit. What is important is that the Employment Creation Fund is with Treasury, not with this department.



I think it is also important to raise the fact that there is nothing erroneous when we say what is confronting us is the legacy of apartheid colonialism ... [Interjections.] ... which continues to reflect scars of a sad and horrible past which has left many people without skills, jobs and assets. Therefore, what makes the situation worse is that the economy is not growing in the manner we anticipated, but this department continues through its unemployment insurance fund, UIF, working tirelessly to ensure that there is



contribution towards skills development. We continue to make sure that the number of workplace contracted diseases is also attended to.



In conclusion, the department must continue to strive to reduce unemployment, poverty and inequality by pursuing the objective of decent work for all through employment creation, enterprise development, the setting of standards and the protection of workplace rights, including the facilitation of equal opportunities and social dialogue and the provision of social labour. The ANC rises to declare its support for this Vote No 28. Thank you, Deputy Chair. [Applause.] [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon member, we are now going to vote, all those ... FF Plus?



Mr S F DU TOIT: You started with the DA and you moved to the ANC, Deputy Chair. [Interjections.] I initially indicated that I want to make a declaration.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, it is fine, make your declaration. Can we check time now as there are also watches here inside.



Mr S F DU TOIT: I am glad that you are asking for the time now but it was not mentioned before.





Voorsitter, dit is belangrik dat die Huis besef wat elke departement se doel en mandaat is. Miskien sal hulle dan dalk die erns van die dilemma waarin Suid-Afrika hom tans bevind besef.





Deputy Chair, the purpose on Labour’s vote, amongst others, is to reduce unemployment and poverty by pursuing the objectives of decent work for all through the following: Enterprise development; setting standards for the protection and work, and very importantly, including the facilitation of equal opportunities and social dialogue provision and social protection. Currently, 29,1% of South Africans are unemployed. The unemployment in South Africa is at the moment five times higher than in the rest of the world. Currently, 9,1% more people are unemployed in South Africa than in 1994, in spite of the state’s efforts to be the main employer in this country. This is evidence that affirmative action affects not only the minority groups, but all the people in South Africa in a negative way. The Labour budget was amended negatively by



R1,9 million and youth unemployment has escalated to an unprecedented 54,7%.





Eskom se jaar-to-jaar lewering van energie het afgeneem. Industrië se vervaardiging het die afgelope jaar afgeneem. Beleggersvertroue in Suid-Afrika het afgeneem as gevolg van, onder andere, beurtkrag en swart ekonomiese bemagtiging.



Sowat 11 miljoen maatskaplike toelaes word tans maandeliks aan behoeftiges uitbetaal.





What the hon member mentioned earlier of South Africa being in dire straits in unemployment as a result of apartheid, South Africa is currently worse off as a result of affirmative action. The FF Plus does not support Vote No 28. [Interjections.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 30 – Science and Technology – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Vote No 31 – Small Business Development – put.



Declarations of vote:


Mr S F DU TOIT: Chair, I will be brief. The economy needs small business development. In fact, small businesses are what keep local economies in South Africa alive and contribute to job-creation.

However, South Africa does not need a Department of Small Business Development. We have seen very little of the promised development of all small businesses and co-operatives that contribute to inclusive economic growth and job-creation. In fact, we have only seen more jobs given within government, which the state cannot afford. As long as the ANC policies are aimed at only creating jobs in government, small businesses will not develop.



Here is the lesson for the ANC: It is not the function of a government to create jobs. It is the function of a government to ensure that policies are in place, aimed at developing businesses that will ultimately create jobs. This department is unnecessarily redundant and the FF Plus cannot support this adjustment. Thank you, Chair.



Mr E J NJANDU: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC is committed to small business development, especially for the youth and women. Small businesses are key actors for building more inclusive and sustainable economic growth. The department will contribute to the attainment of the 2-million job target as set out by the President for the next 10 years.



We commend the support given to 956 informal enterprises, assisted financially through the National Informal Business Upliftment Strategy. This support was a joint programme with the Small Enterprise Development Agency.



Therefore, the ANC fully supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill for this Vote. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and Democratic Alliance dissenting).



Vote 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services – put



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and Democratic Alliance dissenting).



Vote 33 – Tourism – put



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Democratic Alliance dissenting).



Vote 34 – Trade and Industry – put



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Democratic Alliance dissenting).



Vote 35 – Transport - put



Declaration(s) of vote:


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Chairperson, the DA says cha, cha, cha! [no, no, no!] [Laughter.]






Mr T J BRAUTESETH: You don’t understand IsiZulu, hey! You got AK47s on your mama: Thaa-thaa, thaa-thaa! [Laughter.] Hon Deputy Chairperson, for all the protestations of Minister ‘Fix It’ about war rooms and the like, to fix the Department of Transport, all he has achieved is a budget that bails out foreign interest and ignores the plight of commuters in South Africa.



The department has underspent by a massive R640 million. These are funds that should have been allocated to fixing roads, railway infrastructure and improving and seeking new mobility functions.

This has resulted in the massive decline in commuters using the department’ services with receipts dropping from R226 million to R112 million. This sadly reflects the cost of confidence and the ability of government to provide safe, reliable and sustainable transport solutions.



To make matters worse, the department has since said to transfer a whooping R5,8 billion from the Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, to the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, over the last two years. What is the purpose of this transfer? Not road infrastructure, but to plug the e-tolls debt at the expense of restoring rail



infrastructure. Furthermore, very little, as I have said, of this would go into road infrastructure.



With all the razzmatazz in the world, the Minister and his department cannot hide the fact that his plan would make the desperate communities pay for the mistakes made by his government. For these excellent reasons, the DA cannot support this budget.

Thank you.



Mr E R LANDSMAN: Thank you hon Deputy Chairperson, an efficient transport system is crucial for the survival of our economy. We all remember that apartheid system was designed in such a way that it services the white minority – a few selected – at the expense of the black majority. However, the ANC has been working very well to ensure that our transport sector is transformed and serve all South Africans that have been excluded from the different backgrounds that have been excluded and through the integrated transport planning.



One of the country and continent’s prestigious mode of travel, both passenger and cargo is aviation civil legislation as executive implementation. We need to transform this sector in ensuring accessibility to the majority of our people and in future to ensure



that air travel reduces congestion on our roads, especially long- distance travel.



It cannot go without mentioning that the least transformed sector is the maritime sector that to date, it remains the exclusive sector for the rich.



The Minister was very clear in his indications during the state of the nation address debate that he intends to transform this sector from the white’s hands to all that it belongs to, black and white.



In conclusion, the ANC government holds the conviction that transformed, safe and reliable transport system that is safe, very critical to connecting our communities and leading them to increased commercial enterprise activities. I stand here to declare on behalf of the ANC and to support Vote 35. [Applause.]









Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.



Declarations of vote:


Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chair, the past week, the Minister announced a much-needed master plan to manage the water crisis in South Africa and what an utter disappointment! Again, the ANC showed a lack of understanding of the water crisis that we are facing.



The Deputy Minister of Water and Sanitation said on Wednesday that the master plan for addressing the water crisis in South Africa, as presented by the Minister earlier this week, is unfunded. There is thus no budget for the implementation of this plan.





Nie net bied haar plan weinig nuwe oplossings nie, maar sy is ook onrealisties met planne, soos om nuwe boorgate te boor, terwyl Suid- Afrika se grondwater reeds onder druk verkeer. Haar plan is bloot ’n verslag wat Suid-Afrika reeds weet. Daar is ’n droogte, waaraan die regering op die oomblik weinig kan doen, behalwe om hulp aan die boere en gemeenskappe te verleen.



Die Minister versoek Suid-Afrikaners om spaarsamig met water te werk, maar bied geen plan van aksie vir die miljoene liter water wat



deur munisipaliteite gemors word, as gevolg van hul gebrek aan instandhouding en herstelwerk nie. Die lekkasies dra daartoe by dat bruikbare water bloot verlore gaan. Daarom is die vraag na water hoër as die beskikbaarheid daarvan.



Die ANC-munisipaliteite skep effektiewelik ’n unieke droogte wat gekeer kon word, indien die ANC basiese dienste gelewer het.



Indien die ANC daadwerklik daartoe verbind is om opplossings vir die droogte te kry, sou haar plan aksies uitgestippel het om munisipalteite se waterverliese te keer. Die Minister se planne van waterbeperkings en besparingstariewe, droogtemaatreëls vir die herverbruik van water is belangrik, maar spreek nie die ware oorsaak van Suid-Afrika se waterkrisis aan nie. Die VF Plus kan nie hierdie begroting ondersteun nie.



Ms Z V NCITHA: House Chair, it is interesting, when we were debating the Department of Education, hon Du Toit raised an issue regarding the sanitation challenges. Now that we are addressing the issues of sanitation, he is opposing to the budget.



As the ANC, I rise to support the 2019 Adjustment Appropriation Bill. We welcome the R3,8 billion allocation over the medium term



to, among other things, provide water and sanitation to 325 and 286 schools respectively. I hope he is listening now.



We further welcome the fact that the government has allocated R241,9 million for emergency work and R265,3 million through the Sidibeng Water Board Regional Sewer Scheme in the years of the Adjustment Appropriation Bill.



We are however concerned about the R214,9 million rollover, which was meant to be spent on the emergency Vaal River System for Pollution Remediation Intervention project in the Emfuleni Local Municipality in Gauteng. Whilst rollovers are important, as per Treasury regulation section 6(4), to avoid fruitless and wasteful expenditure, we urge the department to spend funds allocated to it especially, for intended purposes.



So, I therefore move the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 37 - Arts and Culture – put.



Declaration of vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, we will not stop talking about our history and how that history is manifested today in thought and practice. To truly free ourselves from the grip of neocolonialism, we need to focus on strengthening our Afrocentric arts and culture institution in this country.



We need to stop celebrating and honouring things that caused us so much pain. We need to remove apartheid statutes, with no apologies, particularly, here in Parliament, and take them to a dedicated apartheid museum as a reminder for our future generation under the theme: Never again.



We need to recognise the pain that die Stem caused to the majority of our people and the symbolic meaning it still has to ... [Inaudible.] ... and that having die Stem still as part of our National Anthem, is offensive to the memories of al those who were killed by the racist government. Die Stem must fall with no apologies.



Linked to this factor is the need to strengthen the use of our languages as African people. There is no reason why today, 25 years



into democracy, after attaining our freedom, English and Dutch are still dominate languages, even in government communication.



We have been crying about the lack of transformation in sport for the past two decades and we have done nothing to entrench sport development in rural areas and in townships.



Makazole Mapimpi comes from a rural area, with a deep culture of playing rugby. There are thousands more Mapimpis in the Eastern Cape whose skills need to be nurtured, but the system excludes them.

Twenty-five years into democracy, the ANC government still backs this racism.



The Department of Sport, Arts and Culture is a dismal failure in this regard. There is no vision and plan, no ability to develop our sport and arts and culture. Therefore, we reject this Bill. You are going to support it and you are going to support anarchy. The EFF will never be part of anarchy.



Declarations of vote (cont):


Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. I don’t think the House realise what a culture of a certain ethnic group means and what it is. It is where you come from. If you do not know where your roots



are, you do not know where you are heading to. History has shown that for someone to go forward they must look at the accomplishment of the past ...








Mr S F DU TOIT: ... as well as the problems that were faced in the past and the mistakes that people made. Hon Chair, removing cultural






order, members ...



Mr S F DU TOIT: ... statues that belongs to a certain ethnic group is not the solution. It is turning a blind eye. If it is so offensive to the other members in the House, I can make the example of having a stone and then...








Mr S F DU TOIT: ... just spring it under the rack it will fall over all the time ...





member, order!



Mr S F DU TOIT: The FF Plus suggests ...





order, members!



Mr S F DU TOIT: ... the FF Plus suggests that other ethnic groups also start to put up statues of their own.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair!





members. Hon members! I hope everyone of you ...





 ... uyafuna ukuzwakala uma ekhuluma. Manje senikhuluma nonke ngathi ningamaxoxo.





Please, order, members.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, I am calling for a point of order because this hon member is misleading the House. He is saying that we don’t know our roots, we don’t know where we are coming from and we don’t know where he is coming from. We know where he is coming from and when did he come to this country. Therefore, he is misleading the House when he says that we don’t know our roots and we don’t know his roots. We know his roots. Thank you very much.





Order members, order! Okay members. That is why I can’t even hear when the member is speaking because all of you are speaking. We will check from Hansard if there is anything wrong that he has said.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson. On a point of order, Chair ... [Inaudible.] ...





hon member, that is not a point of order, it is a point of debate. We will raise it when we do another declaration. Thank you. Hon member, can you please sit.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: There is a point of order here.





members! ... Hon member, I did not allow you.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: I am rising.





not allow you. It is only one member that stood up for order. Now you are provoked by him, then you want to make another order. Okay, let us hear your order.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House chairperson, I am rising on a point of order. We can’t sit here and be insulted and being told that we don’t know our roots. It is on Hansard and this hon member must withdraw that statement. It is not a point of debate. This is a very important debate, where they know that their four fathers have killed our people. We can’t be sitting here and be insulted and he is not made to withdraw. This member must withdraw.





you, hon member. I have taken a ruling on this matter. Hon member, can you please, continue.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chair, I am rising on a point of order, please.



AN HON MEMBER: What is your point of order?



Mr W A S AUCAMP: My point of order is that it does not matter who speaks in this House, the Chair must protect that person. Whether is the ANC, the EFF, the DA or the FF Plus ...





member, sit down!



Mr W A S AUCAMP: ... you must protect and you are not protecting ...





member, sit down! Sit down! Sit down, hon member!



Mr W A S AUCAMP: ... I am addressing you ...





down! Sit down, hon member! Sit down ...





... ngicela uhlale phansi.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: ... will you make a ruling on the protection? Please, do your job.





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hlala phansi!



Mr W A S AUCAMP: ... please, do your job! Please, do your job! Please, do your job ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hlala phansi! Hlala phansi!



Ms B T MATHEVULA: ... no, Chair, you are not.





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Hlala phansi!





Yes! I will take hon member ... hon members! Hon members!





Lona ha le bua le a mamelwa empa batho ba bang ha le ba mamele. Ke kopa le mmamele. Mmamele! Ka kopo!





AN HON MEMBER: Okay, mma.





member is saying is out of order because I have taken a ruling on this matter already. So, hon member, can you please stand up and continue.





Mr S F DU TOIT: Ke a leboha mme. Mme ke batla Ntlo ya hao ... [Kenohanong.] ... e nkutlwe hantle.





I want to help you to listen. Hon Chair, what I said was; if you do not know where you are coming from, if you don’t have a heritage then you cannot be proud. The FF Plus suggest that other ethnic and cultural groups in South Africa start to come together on their own in their different ethnic groups and also put up statues to commemorate the people that went before them. All groups in South Africa must be protected.





member your time is finish. Sit down.



Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chair.





Sihlalo, aphaa iFF Plus idibanisa into engayaziyo, thina siyazazi ukuba sivelaphi na asiveli eDutch kwaye asizange size noJan van Riebeeck, ngumhlaba wethu lo. iEFF mayiyeke ukudibanisa izinto ezingadibaniyo, uMaphimpi ukwezemidlalo akakho kubugcisa nenkcubeko. Enkosi Sihlalo.





The adjustment on the Arts and Culture Vote of funds are to ensure that the sector contribute to sustainable economic development and hence job creation by preserving, protecting and developing South African arts, culture and heritage to sustain social cohesion and democratic nation. Arts, culture and heritage play an important role in nation building. This sector has a potential to contribute to the growth and the development of the society.



We support the virement that will ensure that arts and culture with the various identification departments integrated. Their integration to promote awareness and education, support victims and increase accesses to justice. This is important in the fight against the escalating levels gender-based violence and femicide in our country.



We welcome the progress that has been done to ensure that we promote and protect our heritage such as Sarah Batman Centre of remembrance in Hanjiq, in the Eastern Cape, as well as the upgrading of the National Archives Building. We do note that there are various challenges in implementing heritage and infrastructure programmes.

These challenges must be urgently attended to so that they can contribute to transformation, heritage, promoting and protecting agenda. The ANC supports the adjustment Vote of Arts and Culture.





Asiveli eDutch, silapha [Kwaqhwatywa.]





members, we are on Vote 37. That is why you don’t know on which one are we, because you are busy talking. You are not following what we are doing.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Point of order, Chair.













Man B T MATHEVULA: Mutshamaxitulu, hi tlhelela endzhaku hi endlile Vhoti ya 37, a hi fanele hi ya ka Vhoti ya 38.







ke hona re yang ho 38. O a hlodiya ke kahoo o sa nkutlweng.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: We are on Vote 37, she said Vote 37.





members, we are continuing with Vote 38?





Hheyi! Uyangigugisa wena.



Ms C LABSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order. We did the declarations on Arts and Culture, but we didn’t vote on Vote 37.






Ms C LABSCHAGNE: We didn’t.






Vote No 38 – Human Settlements – put.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.



Declarations of vote:


Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, the EFF objects to the adjustment of the Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development Vote. At the centre of the failures of this government to resolve the colonial and apartheid question of land dispossession 25 years after the attainment of political freedom, whites still own 70% of the land, and Africans just less than 4%.



The various land reform interventions made since 1994 have failed dramatically; rather, the beneficiaries of colonial and apartheid theft have benefited the most from the post-1994 land reform experiment.



The illegitimate owners of the Mala Mala Game Reserve were gifted R1 billion, and are still benefiting from the partnership arrangements there.



Billions of rand have been spent on buying stolen land from the white settlers since 1994, and we have not seen the same amount of money invested in ensuring that black beneficiaries of land reform are supported. In addition, the department of agriculture has been paying lip service to the development of black farmers for a while. There is no coherent plan to support new entrants to sectors, and those already in them are struggling because government support comes in an unco-ordinated manner.



For instance, over R150 billion has been sitting in the Land Bank since 2009, meant for Agri-BEE agreements. None of this money has been used for the development of black farmers. So, we reject this budget and Vote.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chairperson, we sit with the problem of inequality in ownership because of what the ANC is doing in this country and specifically in this department. [Interjections.] This department is refusing to give black South Africans in tribal areas the same dignity and economic freedom that the rest of South



Africans enjoy, by not allowing them to own the land on which they stay. It is being held by government ... whether it’s 13% ... because the now the hon member from the EFF says only 4% while the other extra 13% is not in the people’s name because it is held by the ANC government.



This department also refuses to give black South Africans who are beneficiaries of land reform and land restitution title to the land, because, according to them, the ANC, black South Africans cannot be trusted with the land in the hands. [Interjections.] That is unacceptable and it must change.



Therefore, the DA cannot and will not support this oppressive Budget Vote. Thank you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: I was thinking for a moment the hon Dodovu was standing on a point of order. Hon Chair, land reform in the past has shown that government is having a hard time effectively implementing their policies.



Agri-parks initiatives show the disparity between the national and provincial government’s approach in the ... [Inaudible.] ... agriculture programmes. We have seen that the lack of technical and



market-related support by especially provincial departments leaves these farmers effectively on their own.



Government should urgently reconsider their approach towards the agri-parks and farmer support. The focus of land reform should be to ensure food security across the different markets.



It is my privilege to say that white South Africans can show proof of where they purchased lands, so I dare the hon member ... [Interjections.] ... to show that land was stolen. The FF Plus does oppose Vote No 39. Thank you, Chair.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, we cannot sit here and listen to lies. These people must produce proof of where they purchased that land. Only then can we keep quiet about the land. They must give us proof of where they purchased that land, or did they dish out the land amongst each another? Who sold them that land? He must not read things that are not relevant here. [Interjections.]



Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, the ANC supports this Vote precisely because we understand the magnitude of the challenges of land delivery in South Africa. We are the first to admit that we have not done more in terms of ensuring that we transfer the land to the



people, whether in line with the land tenure system, restitution or redistribution of land.



We are saying that we are going to pursue this and we need to support this department because we must ensure that we transfer land to the people. To this end, we have set up an ad hoc committee that facilitates this particular process in Parliament, but, more importantly, the government is committed to ensuring that, at the end of day, land is redistributed to the people.



I think it is so wrong for anyone to say that they purchased land at some point. We know for a fact that in 1913 there was the Land Act that was promulgated to dispossess African people of their land. To perpetuate this particular matter further in 1936, the government – the apartheid government – did that. As a result of that, many black people were displaced. We are not going to behave like the EFF who grab and take land in a very irresponsible way. [Interjections.] We are going to ensure that we do this in an orderly way, in a way that inspires confidence, in a way that will restore the land to the people of this country. Importantly, we are going to use land as an economic activity, land to unlock opportunity, land to achieve issues of nutrition and land distribution as ... [Inaudible.]



As the ANC, we want to support this department to say: Go head; we are going to do everything in our power to ensure that, indeed, at the end of the day, land is redistributed to the people and that the beneficiaries thereof are the poorest of the poor. Along those particular lines we say: We support the department, we support this Vote and we support the programmes of the department to ensure that

... [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, members! What is the point of order, Ma’am?



Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m rising on a point of order. We want to place it on record as the EFF that since we arrived in Parliament, people know that they were dispossessed of the land, and people are fighting for their land. We, as the EFF, will stop at nothing to help our people get back their land. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, members! That is not a point of order. Can we continue, members? [Interjections.] Can we continue? [Interjections.] Order! Let’s go to the voting. Hon members, let us continue.






Hayi kumnandi namhlanje nhe.





Those in favour say “Yes”.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Those who object ...






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Those who abstain ... Okay. The yeses have it.



Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, I’m asking for a division please, because I’m not sure whether the yeses have it or the noes have it.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): No, why ... [Inaudible.] Hon member, we are continuing with Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa. [Interjections.] Any objections?



An HON MEMBER: On a point of order ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay.



Mr C F B SMIT: Point of order, hon House Chair. The process is: After you’ve said “aye” or “no”, in terms of Rule 65, page 28 of our valuable Rules, under point 1: After the question has been put and the officer presiding has indicated whether the ayes or the noes have it, any member may demand a division. So, I am demanding a division. [Interjections.] Thank you.



Division demanded.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Fine. It’s fine. Let’s go. Those who are in favour, say “Yes.”









The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, by a show of hands, because ...





... sizakulala apha.






Order, hon members! A division has been called. I’ll ask if there are more members in favour of the division. I’d also like to caution members that during divisions, no debate will be allowed. Hon members, question ... [Interjections.] Those who are agreed, could you please show your hands? [Interjections.] Those who object ... [Interjections.] Those who abstain ...



The Council divided:






Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I’m just standing on a point of order. Firstly, I want to ... [Inaudible.] ... This is the first time that the process has been correctly followed today with all divisions. The whole day divisions have been done incorrectly. It has never been asked that there be four members to support a



division. I think that the presiding officers should go on some training sessions during December, so that when we come back next year this is fresh in their minds. Thank you.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chair, the hon member has been repetitive and irrelevant, and therefore his points of order do not stand in this House. We have been following the correct processes today.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, Chief Whip. Order, members! Are there any objections to Vote No 40? Hon member?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, do I need to climb onto a chair to be recognised in order to make a point of order, because I can do so? [Interjections.] I rose on a point of order before you went onto Vote No 40.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I’m on Vote No 40 now. If you are not on Vote No 40, I’m not with you. I’m on Vote No 40.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I know you are not with me, because you ignored me. I rose on a point of order, and you didn’t look around and I can’t put on the microphone. So what do I do if the Chairperson doesn’t want to recognise anyone rising on a point of order?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, I’m on Vote No 40. [Interjections.]



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I rose on a point of order. You cannot just look at me; answer me please. I raised; you have to rule.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, I’m always watching you undermining this Table. I’m saying to you ...



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I’m saying to you that I’m on Vote No 40. If you are not on Vote No 40, please sit down. [Interjections.]



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I take exception that you do a personal thing and say that I am undermining the Table. Maybe you should go for training by somebody other than the Table. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members ... [Interjections.] Order, members! Order! Order! Could you please sit



down; all of you? Sit down all of you. I didn’t recognise you. Sit down. Hon members ... you are going to be stuck with me for five years. Don’t try to confuse me. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Hon members, we are now on Vote No 40. Sit down. [Interjections.] Hon member, could you please sit down. Hon members ... [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon members, could we please continue with Vote No 40?. [Interjections.]









The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I think I will take you out, because I can see that you are undermining me. Sit down. I didn’t recognise you. I didn’t recognise you. Sit down, and listen to my ruling. I’m ruling now. We are continuing with Vote No 40. Hon members, are there any objections to Vote No 40?






Division demanded.



The Council divided:






Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Schedule put and agreed to.



Schedule agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon members, that concludes the consideration of the Votes.



Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.



Schedule agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).







(Consideration of Bill and Report of Select Committee on Appropriations thereon)



There was no debate.



Declarations of vote:


Mr D R RYDER: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, when we said we wanted to see more members of the ruling party in orange, we meant overalls but not necessarily what you are wearing today. [Applause.]



Deputy Chairperson, a budget is drawn up to give effect the promises that government has made to its people. To ensure that we deliver what has been promised, a fine balancing act is required, remembering that the physical envelope has its boundaries and yet there are many needs and imperatives that need to be fulfilled.



In February of each year, the Finance Minister delivers his Budget Speech and there is much horse-trading as interest groups lobby for bigger slices of the pie – a pie which has been ever decreasing as the ruling party has been snacking on the ingredients before the rest of us get a chance to the meal.



The budget sets the agenda for the executive. The money is prioritised and spent where it is most needed. That prioritisation is not done without careful consideration. It must be emphasised that where money appropriated, there are always other departments,



communities and interest groups who are disappointed through the lack of priorities shown to their particular needs and wants.



When it comes to the media adjustment of appropriations, one is given insight into how government departments have chosen to prioritise their work; what a disgrace! Programmes where spending is needed to lift the quality of life for our citizens are ignored and forgotten. Declared underspending is a sign of a lack of political will to attend and spend people’s money on things that they were promised.



My colleagues have already highlighted the worst abusers in their earlier declarations: underspending of R700 million on detectives in the Police when the crime is at the level that it is at; when detectives are constantly working without resources, training budget and training because of budget. Sies! Underspending on health, on Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, small businesses and the jobs fund when the country so desperately needs economic growth. No underspending, there has been no underspending on VIP protection and ministerial comforts.



Do we see money being moved and spent on the drought and environment? Not a cent. The Adjustments Appropriation Bill is a



slap in the face of the voters that have put us up here. Not only does the DA not support it, but we distance ourselves from the message that this Adjustments Appropriation Bill sends.



This Bill is antipoor, antidevelopment, antigrowth and anti-South African.



Mr M S MOLETSANE: There are serious concerns around the declared unspent funds by national departments, which is part of the factors that led to budget being adjusted. We believe this should not disadvantage social programmes meant for the poor. This amounts to R3,9 billion with a projected underexpenditure of R1,1 billion for the current financial year on service delivery and delay the completion of critical projects which are of utmost importance in economic growth and job creation.



Most importantly, part of the unspent funds include the employment creation facilitation funds which is R157 million and the community work programme worth R300 million. These are critical programmes for poverty alleviation, job creation and fighting inequality in our society. The EFF does not support the Bill.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you hon Deputy Chairperson, since I have made declarations on almost all the Votes, I believe that the House know what the FFPlus’s opinion towards this is. I am not going to be repetitive. We do not support the Bill. Thank you.





Mnu Z MKIVA: Camagu Sekela Sihlalo. Sonke siyazi ukuba umbutho wesizwe awuphozisi maseko ekumeleni into yokuba umele isininzi sabantu esisokolayo nesitsala nzima kweli lizwe. Ngoko ke lo Mthetho oYilwayo ujongene nokuqinisekisa ukuba sikhupha abantu bakuthi entluphekweni sibabeke endaweni ethe tye, yento yokuba bazive bengabanini balo mhlaba.





The Adjustments Appropriation Bill ensures greater focus in confronting the challenges that are facing our nation. The hon President of the Republic, in the two Sonas that he presented earlier this year made it clear that we have programmes that are implementable and the implementation is already underway in ensuring that we confront all these challenges that face our nation.



If implemented effectively, this Adjustments Appropriation Bill provides a platform for the renewed inclusive growth, job creation,



as well as directing our spending to our most pressing national priorities including education and early childhood development, especially the focus on the early childhood development centres. If we invest in education, we will never go wrong. One of the prominent writers said; if you want prosperity for the short term, you grow maize; if want prosperity for the medium term, you grow trees, but if you want prosperity for the lifelong term, you grow people.

Education plays specifically a role on that. [Applause.]



The Budget presents a roadmap to maintaining the integrity of our public finances. How many times should we emphasise that point? We do so whilst protecting our social services. We acknowledge that the learning and education function received the largest share of spending. It provides access to Basic and Higher Education, develops skills, provides training and contributes to social cohesion.

Priorities in this function include improving schools and student housing infrastructure and provide bursaries for tertiary students from poor and working class families.



Spending grew from R354,8 billion to R442,6 billion over the medium- term at an average annual growth of 7,6%. Provinces and municipalities play a crucial role in advancing the economic development of their respective precincts. Fully functional ...



[Time expired.] ... in short, the ANC is very supportive and says that we must take this thing forward and continue with the implementation. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.






Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, members. We have now come to appoint where we need to do and deliver farewell speeches to mark the end of the term, appropriately so.



I will now invite members of political parties or political parties to deliver their own end of the year speeches. I will start with the DA on my left. The DA!







Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, hon members and fellow South Africans. It still feels like just yesterday we were all out on the



campaigns speaking to thousands of South Africans on what issues mattered to them in this election.



Now, seven months later, we are wrapping up the first session of the Sixth Parliament reflecting on that, that makes one note and appreciate that time really flies by. I say that again, time flies by. But not all time is lost; four and half years remain of this Sixth Democratic Parliament.



At this moment in the term we do not really require farewell speeches, we need planning speeches, visions to outline, outline our roadmap of how we as members of the upper House, of this bicameral Parliament would like to be remembered come 2024.



The activities of the NCOP this year alone reflect, once again, the shortfall of recognizing the true purpose and nature of this House. The rushing of Bills in committees and plenaries; galvanizing the false sentiment that we are a rubber stamp to the NA.



The failure of interrogation legislation for the most optimal inclusion of provincial interest and the lack of political will in holding the executive to account through the various mechanisms that allow for such engagement.



I want all of us to visualise an NCOP that acts and functions like a true upper House. I want us to imagine an NCOP that operates like a first chamber, provides expertise to legislation like a house of lords and has the respect of the nation, like the senate; and just like any upper House in any country, the interests and needs of the provinces we represent are what should drive us to deliver the best quality of work in the national legislature. We are not the national council of parties, we are the National Council of Provinces. It is about time we start acting as such.



If you look at Parliaments and congresses across the world, you would find that both the lower and the upper Houses hold unique powers to each other.



Why then, should the NA have the only say when it comes to electing the President? Why can’t that power be balanced with the NCOP having the ability to confirm Cabinet members nominated by the President?

Does this not speak to a true balance of powers after all?



The NCOP is effectively the checks and balances of the NA and indirectly, the national executive. What happened to the days of rigorous debate? What happened to the fully bastering?



We are the last point of departure of often life changing or life damaging pieces of legislation before they arrive to the President’s desk.



We owe it to the democratic project that we make the most of our role as an upper House and really ensure the maximum processing of legislation. And we have a true example of that, this morning when hon Carrim referred to the rushing of Taxation Bills and not spending the correct amount of time to a Bill.



There is a problem when the media labels this House as the national council of pointlessness or more commonly Shady Pines; an illusion to be a dumping ground for expired cadres.



Respect is earned. Only once we have members in this House take our roles seriously and apply it with careful and correct interpretation of our functions as laid out in the Constitution, the public will follow suite.



Unlike the NA, in fact unlike any upper Houses across the world, we have the unique feature of combining all spheres of government. The SA Local Government Association, SALGA, instrumented to take part in House debates. Members of the nine provincial legislators occupy



special delegates seats with voting powers. And the national government is accountable to this House through our committees when dealing with legislation.



Time really flies by, as I said in the beginning. But while we still have enough time we can embark on a journey of truly altering the NCOP into a real, respectable, unique upper House of Parliament in the time remaining.



I would like to lastly give a word of thanks to all those involved in the House, from the members to the table staff, to the office staff; we are all responsible for the functioning of this chamber. Go forth and enjoy your festive holiday with your friends and families and loved ones. But come back with more motivation and energy than ever before. We will need it if we truly wish to change the NCOP for the better. I thank you. [Applause.]



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, this end of another term of this House couldn’t have come at the bad time than now. When the country is battling with violence against defenceless and vulnerable women and children, who are killed and raped mercilessly by sick men, some very close people who seem to believe that they own their bodies.



When the country hardly few weeks after the much-hyped up false unity supposedly brought by the Springbok rugby world cup victory. It is still grappling with sickening racism which has once more reared its ugly head recently in the Eastern Cape where it claimed a life of a father of two, Anele, who was brutally murdered by a white sick racist farmer who referred to him as satan while he referred to himself as a chosen one. Talk about a clear case of white racial supremacy.



This break, Chairperson, comes at a time when the communities of Khayelitsha, Gugulethu, Nyanga and the Cape Flats are struggling to cope with high murder rates. Here in the Western Cape crime and drugs is at high. This is despite the army and large contingent of police being deployed to this area.



This break, Chairperson, comes at a time when millions of South Africans ravaged by poverty, don’t know what they are going to eat tonight; let alone during Christmas.



It comes at a time when millions of our people across the country, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and here in the capital of racism, the Western Cape, are faced with real threats of floods and rain continues to explore the bad spatial planning which at heart of it



is landlessness caused by the failed policies of land and the inadequate and in some instances, nonexistence of infrastructure. Yet we are told there’s good governance.



Finally, this break, Chairperson, comes at a time when the country’s state-owned enterprises, SOEs, such as SA Airways, SAA, SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, Denel, Eskom and the list goes on and on, are at the brink of collapse, with many already in that state; yet we are told there’s a good story to tell. All this in courtesy of the ANC, which has ran the country down over the last 25 years through its bad policies, cadre deployment, corruption and party of state capture.



In closing, Chair, let me take this opportunity to challenge all members of this House to not go on holiday this festive season but to use the break to reflect on our performance and reach out to millions of South Africans on the ground who are ravaged by social ills such as racism, gender violence, crime, poverty and unemployment. Don’t be obsessed with selfies, lend a helping hand.



And to the SA Rugby Union, I challenge you to start an antiracism awareness campaign in all your local and international games, to rid



your game off racism, regardless of the amount they spend on the rugby ticket.



To the majority of South Africans please enjoy your festive season and make sure that you spend it wisely with family and friends, look out for criminals, rapists and racists who continue to kill innocent black people and stay away from alcohol, don’t drink and drive. I thank you. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S Lucas): Chairperson of the NCOP, House Chairperson, our Chief Whip, permanent and special delegates present here today, let me also recognise the presence of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, someone whom we appreciate a lot, and to whom we owe a debt of gratitude for the support that he is giving us, particularly the women in this Parliament.



Since each generation must confront the living reality of its own situation, and accept its own call to battle, let this be our call to stand firm in advancing the resolve to positively transform the lives of our people.



We, the generation of the Sixth Parliament, must pledge to take it upon ourselves to advance and deepen the call to become an activist



Parliament — an activist Parliament that can be seen to be an organ of people’s power, an institution that advances the democratic goals through an active and mobilised citizenry.



The problem with us when we stand here and speak is that we want to say it should be House of provinces, not of parties, but we still act as if we are representing our parties here. We tend to forget that, without one another, we don’t have a National Council of Provinces.



So if we don’t involve our people and make sure that they participate properly in the legislative process, we will remain the ones that we will criticise ourselves. Because, if you criticise yourself, who will correct you if you don’t take that criticism to build and advance a better trajectory.



We should not have to be reminded of our constitutional responsibility by the courts. We must make sure that we proactively immerse ourselves in the resolve to advance this constitutional mandate that we, according to ourselves, understand so well. Let us use our proximity to power to improve the material conditions of our people’s lives. Let us not just conduct oversight for the sake of oversight and for the sake of compliance. Let our recommendations



and our interventions reflect the hearts and the needs of our communities in clearly observable terms. These recommendations and interventions must be driven by a vibrant and responsive contingent of NCOP members.



We should see value for the time we spend conducting oversight. It must be outcomes-based with tangible and measurable results.



As an activist Parliament, we should have members who are rooted in their communities, who use their parliamentary constituency offices as catalysts for community outreach. Our statements and our questions in the House must be informed by the plight of our people with whom we interact on a daily basis.



To this end, we should be true to the character and the mandate of the NCOP, which is to advance the interests of our provinces. We cannot have a Parliament that is not representative of the political will, of the social diversity, and of our country’s ethno- demographic realities. We cannot have a Parliament which is not active and effective in its constitutional function at local and national levels, and which is not accountable to the people it serves. If it isn’t those things, it can never act as an engine of



democracy nor will it succeed in meaningfully advancing the socioeconomic development of our country.



At the same time, no activist Parliament can exist without an active civil society. Moving forward, we need to develop a true partnership with civil society because the challenges of the developmental state necessitate that we activate a formidable social contract with strategic partners across all levels of society, so as to effectively reverse the impact of poverty and inequality.



Parliament needs civil society as civil society needs Parliament. One cannot be substituted for the other. The reason I am saying this is because, in many instances¸ we allow things to get out of our hands, and civil society thinks that it needs to substitute us in the importance of our oversight over the executive. There is no such! We thus need to co-operate more effectively with civil society.



While we recognise each other’s unique roles, Parliament, as an organ of people’s power, has over the years used sectoral parliaments as a platform for marginalised communities to interact with public representatives on critical issues that affect their lives. For instance, this year, on 29 August, we held a successful



first Women’s Parliament in the sixth term of administration. That event served as a launching pad to kick start the provincial review sessions of the 1994 Women’s Charter for effective equality. That is a review process that will assess the efficacy of the structural arrangements in place, particularly as they pertain to the national gender machinery, gender budgeting processes and related matters.



Furthermore, review processes will culminate in the adoption of improved legislative oversight mechanisms while advancing to remove all structural, institutional and cultural barriers that continue to impact the pace of transformation as it pertains to gender equality.



I want to come to the issue of gender-based violence. It is something that we want to speak to. It is something that we need to advance through all these programmes and resolve to form strong relations with everyone who has an interest in making sure that we change South Africa for the better. Our 16 Days of Activism programme and events in Parliament was supposed to be an internal programme. But we are getting so much positive feedback from outside because of the fact that we brought an activist, someone who is a survivor of gender-based violence – Dr Koli Notshulwana – someone who spoke out and wrote a book about the trauma that she suffered throughout her life. Some of our own members expressed their



activism in the fight that they are advancing against gender-based violence.



So, as parliamentarians, we have the responsibility of taking the lead in all these programmes. We must make sure that we are showing people-centred activism, that we roll out our campaign in a way that will involve all people of South Africa, and that we galvanise all social and material resources of society in order to reverse the grave impact of gender-based violence. This is a campaign that will enable us to make sure that we are rooted within our communities.



Hon members, I can see that my time is flying. I really want to say a lot. But I want to say that since we started, we have observed that the planning of the committees, the planning of the NCOP, our engagement with the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and our other partners in our first engagement during our induction, is how we make sure that this NCOP is truly rooted in the structures where it supposed to be rooted.



These are the kind of things that you did. We observed how committees worked very hard. I know there was, in some instances, too little time to do so much. But we have observed what our members have been doing. And we want to express our appreciation to those



that were here before us. You really welcomed us into the fold and you gave us guidance. Even hon Labuschagne, the way she tried to give us guidance ... those that we accept and those that we don’t accept. But that is something that we appreciate, and we really want you to come back.



So, if you think the last sixth months were rough, watch out how 2020 is going to be even rougher for all of us! We must work hard and we must work together to make a difference and a change in the lives of our people.





As ek hier staan, dan wil ek vir u sê ... vir almal, table staff, skoonmakers, die voedsel spyseniers... almal hier ... almal ... partye ... dit was lekker! Julle’t my gebrei. Julle’t my gekook, maar julle sal my nie gaar kry nie! [Gelag.] Nie julle nie!



Maar ek wil ook vir u sê, laat ons almal rus. Ons kan werk, maar laat ons rus. Laat ons die vakansie geniet, maar laat ons ook seker maak ons vier ’n heilige Christusfees, die van ons wat die Christusfees eerbiedig. Laat ons dit heilig maak.



Laat ek vir u sê ...





... if you think we were difficult, we will be even more difficult in 2020 because now we understand out role much better!



But I really want to encourage you to enjoy the holidays. Come back safely. Don’t do what I won’t be doing because we want all of you back in 2020. Arrive alive ...





... en hou op om te drink en te bestuur.



Aan almal wil ek sê, wees geseënd. 2019 eindig ons op ’n baie hoë noot. Mag ons 2020 op ’n nog hoër noot begin. Dankie.



Mr S E MFAYELA: Chairperson and NCOP members, as we draw 2019 to a close, we recall the hard work that we did over and above our commitment to this august House. Of course, I am referring to the recent national and provincial electoral period. For most of us, the work began in 2018 when we started our party work in anticipation of the 2019 elections.



Putting aside our differences for the moment, it fills me with great pride to know that every five years we hold democratic elections



without any uncertainty and without this vital component of democracy being questioned



After the 8 May elections this year, we did not stop to rest. We ploughed on into Parliament’s activities. To this end, I believe we have achieved great successes and have seen changes in the political arena.



As public representatives, we know our work never really stops, whether it is by going back to our communities or attending to party needs.



The end of 2019 brings about the first real opportunity for us to rest and to regroup with our families and loved ones. Most importantly, we must remain safe. We must come back in 2020 fully rejuvenated and ready to respond to the needs of our great country.



As we enter a new decade, 2020 must ... and we bring about harder and smarter work from all Houses of Parliament, and all places of our ... [Inaudible.]



We wish to fully collaborate in order to dedicate the decade to full and comprehensive service delivery, innovations and social support to all the people of this country.



In closing, I would like to remind you of the special meaning of this ... [Inaudible.] No matter where you drive it, it ... importance and all we know that this is where we take time to focus on giving back, being with our families and most importantly, being joyful.



On behalf of the IFP, I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year. I remind you, hon members, whatever you do, don’t overdo it. Do it to the limit. Thank you.





Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, agb lede, dis ’n voorreg om vandag voor julle te kan staan en terug te kyk op die jaar en wat ons kan erken dat, ten spyte van al die uitdagings wat alle Suid-Afrikaners tot dus ver gehad het, alles ten goede meegewerk het.



Die VF Plus bedank graag al die personeel, die personeel by die Tafel, die vertaaldienste vir hul hoflikheid en die werk wat hulle gedoen het. Ons waardeer dit.





Numerous challenges were encountered this year. We witnessed a year where SOEs reached a corruption climax, while appointed and elected deployed cadres just shrugged their shoulders in disbelieve.



The year 2019 was plagued with service delivery protests where people were turning on themselves, blaming other people for problems that they caused themselves. The year 2019 will be known as the year when the first former Minister was arrested for alleged fraudulent activities. The 2019 was the year when the plight for violence against women and children was debated on a national level, but government failed to declare murders on both black and white farmers as a priority crime for the 25th year in a row.





Suid-Afrika is die spreekwoordelike krimitartboom op hierdie pragtige continent. Die blare kan nuwe asem in Afrika blaas en die hoë takke kan beskerming in tye van verwarring bied. Die bas is kernmerkend gehard teen die konitnent se aanslae, en die wortels kan diep in die Afrikagrond beur om te delf vir die lewegewende soet water wat diep lê om dit op te slurp teen die ooglopende ongenaakare gloed wat dit omring en soos ’n nederige reus bo die opmstandighede uittroon.



Suid-Afrikaners is soos daardie boom – spreekwoordelike uitgevrete olifante skuur en beskadig die stam, maar die gewikkel veroorsaak dat ons wortels, as gevolg van die seerkry, net dieper in ons kultuur in delf, net om te besef dat ons hier is vir ’n rede.



Ander kan met afguns, jaloesie en haat na ons kyk en dit is dan wanneer die volgende woorde waar word: ...





... No man can make you inferior without your own consent. You determine how people treat you.



There is still hope. There is more hope.





Vroeër vanjaar het ek een oggend baie vroeg mismoedig na afloop van voortslepende protesaksies in die land, na ’n program op Radio Kansel geluister. Die oproeper het meteens met ’n hoorbare stem oor die luggolwe laat weergalm en gesê, en ek haal aan:



Waarom is jy mismoedig? Het die liewe Vader jou nie waardig geag om in hierdie tyd te leef nie?



Toe tref dit my opnuut dat ons hier is om mekaar se laste te dra, om gemeenskapape met trots te dien. Hierdie boodskap is vir elke Suid- Afrikaner.





We as politicians have a duty to serve and protect our people.





Dankie aan elke Suid-Afrikaner wat hulle hoop in ons as politici geplaas het. Dankie vir die voorreg wat ons het om vir julle te mag veg. Dankie dat julle julle eie en julle kinders se toekoms in ons hande plaas en ons toevertrou. Ons besef die omvbang van die verantwoordelikheid.





In closing, ...





Gelukkig is ons nie alleen in hierdie stryd nie.






We have a duty and privilege. There is a truth and the truth is in Hebrews 13:5: I will never leave and I will never forsake you. That is what the Lord told us.





Namens die VF Plus, ’n geseënde Christusfees. Geniet die tydjie af. Dankie.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, special delegates and hon members, we have arrived at a time of the year where we should go our separate ways and join our families for the festivities that this period brings until early 2020. This is both a moment of joy and somehow some kind of discomfort and sadness a little bit, because we are going to be isolated from our colleagues, friends and comrades. For example, I am going to personally miss hon Mokause.

She is not here. I will miss her for good reasons such as her fear and anxiety when she sees a full House when all members are here. She feels some kind of discomfort when she sees special delegates and for some reason, she asks that they must introduce who they are. [Laughter.]



The first time is saw hon Tim Brauteseth and hon Du Toit, I felt some discomfort due to their physical presence. I felt uncomfortable



when I engaged them and differed because it looked like things will get a bit rough. However, I was reminded that they are, in fact, very good and humble human beings and I have come to realise that.



So, the great sense of humour of Comrade Yunus Carrim is another aspect that we will miss as well as his ability, even when he couched his ideological position in jest. So, he uses that more often and very well. He is so available, particularly, being in the ranks of senior political leaders that form part of this House.



All of us know the tendency of the Deputy Chair to jump into Afrikaans whenever she is pushed into a corner. That will make us chuckle this whole festive season while we are away from the corridors of power. Of course, we will remember that.



Lastly, I want to mention hon Lindiwe Bebee for her deep love and strong command of the beautiful language, IsiZulu. She embodied the concrete expression of the beauty that resides in our indigenous languages. She more often would say, ...





... IKwaZulu-Natal iyayiseka [KwaZulu-Natal supports]





I also want to wish her all the best and the best of luck because she will undergo a procedure on 17 December, when many of us are enjoying the festive season. So, on behalf of this House, we wish her success, and wish that the procedure will be successful. [Applause.]



Last year, during the similar moment, I had the honour to stand here and exchange farewell messages with my colleagues. As I stand here today, once more, out of the total 64 members, permanent delegates of the NCOP, only 16 came back after the sixth national elections.

While this is a strategic setback to the NCOP, in terms of the restock of institutional memory, it has also presented a golden opportunity for renewal and new thinking. This is profoundly critical for the organisational change, transformation and development of the NCOP as a catalyst for sound intergovernmental relations and integrated corporative governance that is entrenched in our constitutional democracy.



This begs for a fundamental question that all of us must ponder: Can we look back at these first six months of the Sixth democratic Parliament with a great sense of pride and confidence about the future that lies ahead? After serving with you for the past six



months, I am convinced that South Africa will have a better tomorrow.



This is not just my belief; it is the beating heart of our dream of a united and prosperous country, our bold determination to transform the legacy of our painful apartheid past.



I have a strong belief that we are all willing to work harder to build consciousness among all South Africans across all racial groups, that we are all created equally, endowed by a creator with certain unalienable drives, among them life, equality and progress.



First and foremost, the story of the NCOP in the first six months can only be summed up in four ways namely, the strategic repositioning, the internal reorganisation, the radical action and learning. If we don’t appreciate that we are a learning organisation, surely, we will be undermining development.



At the core of this was very good things I have seen about you. At the core of this was making sense of the strategic priorities of the Sixth democratic Parliament, which culminated into a strategic planning session. We have realigned our organisational structure. We



have established a strategic vision and the priorities of the Sixth democratic Administration.



Accordingly, members have been subjected to various kinds of training, as mentioned. Members have demonstrated a great sense of zeal and urgency in interrogating the executive through questions in the plenary debate, as it relates to fundamental issues affecting our provinces and our people. We must admit that we have been stronger in terms of dealing with questions in the House and with the scheduling of questions.



Hon Labuschagne is correct. We have not struck a balance in terms of the debate on other issues in the House. That is correct, but it is the first six months. So, we should be a learning organisation. We need to look back on the first six months and improve when we come back.



We have also witnessed qualitative improvement in the interparty dialogue and co-operation, which accounts not only for an improved decorum of the House, but importantly, the smooth political management of the institution at different levels.



I am able to communicate with my counterparts and share what should be on the agenda of the House and accordingly, agree or disagree and find common grounds in terms of what must be dealt with. I appreciate the maturity of the political leaders in this House.



This is what we mean when we say that our democracy is exceptional, not that it has been flawless, but that we have shown the capacity to change and make life better for our people. This is critical in the evolution of our constitutional democracy.



As you have said in the 2019 Budget debate that the greatest threat to democracy in the 21st Century lies in two interrelated tendencies that must be confronted: blind majoritarianism and blind opposition. We must defeat the political tendency where the majority relies on its numerical strength to impose decisions on the minority.

Similarly, opposition parties must guard against the tendency to oppose for the sake of opposing, even when progress is being made.



Please, allow me to boldly claim that we are proud of the first six months and confident about the future. The future is not something isolated but has its best ... [Inaudible.] ... in what we do today. We have benefitted greatly from the wisdom of experience, knowledge



and leadership of two presiding officers, the hon Chairperson, Amos Masondo, and Silvia Lukas.



As we go to our respective provinces, it is perhaps critical for us to think about the state of our economy and how we are going to contribute towards building solid blocks for its strengthening. Our economic growth has decelerated because of declining global competitiveness.



Working together with government, we must find ways to maintain macroeconomic stability, how to tackle the rising public debt, and how to deal with inefficiencies in our state-owned enterprises and control spending pressures.



Although significant progress has been made, we know that the revelations of corruption and malfeasance in government institutions, as witnessed from audit outcomes and various commissions of inquiry, painted a disturbing image of our institutions.



The rule of law is paramount. We need to come back energised to fight these tendencies and ensure that culprits are brought to book.



Lastly, gender-based violence has become one of the most pervasive and yet, the least recognised human rights abuse in the world. We need to work harder, as a country, to combat this demon of gender- based violence. Even as we will be sitting at home during this festive season, it is critical that women and children are safe in our country. When societies don’t value women and their well-being, the entire community suffers and generations are mired in all kinds of problems.



In bidding you farewell, please allow me to extend a warm word of gratitude to the leaders of various political parties represented in this House, our two House Chairpersons, provincial Whips and chairpersons of select committees, who constitute a very important layer of the leadership of Parliament.



All members, our support staff, a special word of gratitude to the great House assistants. You know, when Mr Vincent comes here, the hon Chairperson is also able to mimic him exactly. Thank you to Moira, Freek Erasmus, Brent, and Jonathan February. I have no doubt that without these service staff, we would amount to nothing. I must even say thank you to the support staff here, the Table staff, for assisting with procedure from time to time. At times we are chaotic



and we have to rely on their sober counsel through the presiding officers.



I thank my office staff for their professionalism. As the Chief Whip of the institution, I have to liaise with all parties, and Mr Zama Mvulani, does that consistently, all the time, without fail and he does it exceptionally well.



Lastly, Comrade Pemmy Majodina, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, thank you for holding us together and for providing strategic

... [Inaudible.] ... and in Parliament here and guidance. [Applause.] Working with you has indeed been a great source of both delight and honour. I wish all of us a safe journey back home, a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. We meet next year. Some of the issues that are ... [Inaudible.] ... are not for the debate today, but we have to deal with it when we come back. Thank you. [Applause.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Chief Whip. Just a few words from me. Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon House Chairpersons, hon Chief Whip, hon members, today marks the end of a short but very intense first part of the journey into the belly of the Sixth Parliament. Indeed, we have along and setaceous journey ahead which



we must navigate carefully. It will require a great resolve and a requisite character. Hon Deputy Chairperson, we enter the Sixth Parliament knowing fully well the challenges we faced as a nation. South Africa remains a highly unequal society where too many people continue to live in poverty.



The country continues to experience lower economic growth as you all know, and rising unemployment. Our society cries out for gender equality and emancipation. Also and alarmingly, too many of our youth are not participating in the economy. All these issues are worsened by an economy that is not growing and the pressure on our government to continue to serve the ever growing need of the populists.



However, we as the public representatives, our task in a treacherous, nautical expedition is to steer the ship in the right direction, right up to its destination, studding it through whirling winds while technically think not to hit the pile. This requires a leadership acumen, ability and steadfastness second to none. Hence our long and setaceous journey ahead, which we must navigate carefully without seeking instant gratification.



As I have said at the point of accepting the role of leading this House, to which I will remain indebted to you and my political organisation, the ANC, I quote: “The time for speeches and empty promises is over.” I went further to say:



It is evident that as Parliament, we have made good policies and passed good laws in the past 25 years of democracy. What we have not done however as a legislative sector, have been to ensure the systematic implementation of these laws and policies to the benefit of our people.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, we must without the slightest prevarication be happy with what we have achieved in the period of just over six months in office as indicated by other speakers. It is a solid foundation for the work we must do in the pursuit of fundamental change. We have set up structures to undertake the work of this House in pursuit of its constitutional mandate. We have elected leadership to lead these structures and we commend them for their work.



We have been on the ground to conduct oversight and have asked as many and specific questions to ensure accountability by the executive. Overall, we are indeed on cost in carrying our



constitutional responsibilities to serve all our people and indeed, all of our country. One of the tasks we must conclude early in the New Year is, the finalisation of the policy imperatives and the strategic plan of Parliament.



This work is at an advance stage and these instruments will help us to charge the strategic direction for an institution in this term. We also need to increase our involvement in local government through our integrated oversight exercise so that we can contribute to integrate development. There must be alignment amongst the different spheres of government with regard to our policy choices and implementation.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, these are not interesting times economically, we must therefore promote frugality amongst South Africans, and that turns out that South Africa with one of the worst serving rate in the world of just 15,4% of Gross Domestic Product, GDP, has more of a debt culture than a savings one. Festive cheers must therefore not be followed by self-induced grief.



It is now a moment to bid one another farewell as a specific author, Paulo Coelho suggests: “If you are brave enough to say goodbye, life will reward you with a new hello.” May you fully enjoy the festive



break, may you be safe on the roads, at sea, in the air and everywhere else. When you come back, please continue to extend the rich of the sweet and lovely smell of the collaboration and comradeship that were beginning to ward through the Chambers as the year is near the end.



It could be our defining feature, building nonantagonistic relations without compromising accountability and meaningful oversight.

Hambani kahle. Tsamayang hantle. Thank you very much. [Applause.] Hon members, we have come to the end of the sitting. So, one request is that we remain standing until the procession has left the Chamber. But as we do that, let us note that the buses outside will be leaving in 10 minutes, and members must note that and act accordingly. Thank you very much.



Debate concluded.



The Council adjourned at 17:28.