Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 13 Nov 2019


No summary available.





Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beE18cILOcw




The Council met at 14:04.



The Deputy Chairperson (Ms S E Lucas) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation







members. Is there any member that wishes to give notice of a motion? You must just keep your hands there so that I write down all the people because it is quite a few. I will start this side TB I will come to you. Cloete ABC, are you sitting here now? Oh, you are a traveller in this place, I see you on another seat every day. I am here now, Nchabeleng, I love you more than my mother, I am here now Boshoff, the motion without notice not the one that says notices of motion. I must also get used to these things. Motion without notice, please remember that one our province. Labuschagne, ntate Njandu...


without... so you will be in the next. First one, there is notices of motion and it the one that we are starting with now. Each and every one is one and half minutes, maximum 20 minutes. We will start with ABC, hon Cloete.



Mr A B CLOETE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF Plus:



That the House-



debates the end of the brain drain through race policies such as Broadband Black Empowerment and Affirmative Action South Africa in order to save the South African economy and service delivery. I so move.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is a notice of motion so I do not think that there is any process that needs to follow that, hon Smit from Limpopo.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:


That the Council-



debates the review of the Agri-parks approach to research and develop a model of sustainable, cost effective support to small scale and subsistence farmers in South Africa. I so move.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:



That the Council-



debates the socio-economic state of the military veterans and their families, and whether or not there are plans for the department to ease the suffering of military veterans during the festive season. Thank you.



Mr S E MFAYELA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:



That the Council-



debates the need for a stricter regulation and controls within the gambling industry, whereby people can set personal limits


on amounts they wish to gamble with either daily or per month. I so move.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I really hope that the table got it because I could not hear everything that the hon Mfayela was saying. It is fine, I am sure you will hand your proposal to the table.



Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council-



1. notes that-



the 14 November notes marks World Diabetes Day which is part of the campaign that is led by the International Diabetes Federation and its member association around the world, including the American Diabetes Association, the Diabetes UK, Diabetes Australia, the Canadian Diabetes Association, Diabetes South Africa, Diabetes New Zealand


and the Diabetic Association of India to raise awareness about the deadly effect of diabetes.



2. further note that-



statistics from the International Diabetes Federation, the World Health Organisation and the Centre for Disease Control reveal that, worldwide over 415 million people are diabetic. Every six seconds, a person dies from diabetic related causes. Every 10 seconds, two people develop diabetes and every 30 seconds a lower limb is amputated worldwide due to diabetes.



3. enjoins the Council-



to debate the deadly impact of diabetes in South Africa and measures that are geared towards raising towards awareness about this silent killer. I so move.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you hon Nchabeleng, hon Labuschagne.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Sorry hon Chair, I want to do a motion without notice.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You want to do a motion without notice, ok, yourself and ... yes I am coming to you. I am writing down those that already indicated that they are going to do motions without notice. I have a list of about one, two, three, four, five, six members. I ... [Inaudible.] ... I have covered you, ... you are covered. Do you still want to give a notice? Ok, I am coming to you because I was looking at you and you showed like, it is fine.



Members let me just conclude the list, ne. You must remember that there is a time limit to this. It is Mmola, who else here, Do Toit, I do have, I do have, I do have, without... no I am watching and you are notice of motion. I am coming to you, I am concluding my list because there are many members that want to... Tebogo... what is your ... Modise. I am concluding the list. I hope we will have enough time. Yeah mama Bebee, baba you want to be here again? Ok, Lehihi you want to, you want to... I am having so many motions. It is because it has been long since we had motions. You will speak now, you will speak now or you want to speak on both, but you will speak now, yes.


I am just concluding the list so that we do not come back to the same. The two of you also want to speak now, ok. After this, not now, Smit, Motsamai... you do not want give yours to her, because both of you are speaking, ok, otherwise the time might not cover all of us. We will now go to hon Goyiya on notices of motion.



Mr A B GXOYIYA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the House-



notes and debates



the transport month which take place in October to further advance the country’s road safety initiatives whilst also creating awareness of the economic benefits of the sector, especially transport infrastructure services in aviation, maritime public transport and roads.



further notes that-


this year’s transport month was launched by the President Cyril Ramaphosa on 05 October 2019 in Gauteng.



and acknowledges that-



whilst our investment in the transport sector continues to stimulate development and create jobs as part of the country’s nine point plan, the country is still faced with a disconcert culture of negligence and utmost disregard of road safety. I so move.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you very much hon Gxoyiya. That concludes the notices of motion. We are going to request... does any member wish to move a motion without notice. We already have a list of members and we will start with hon Landsman.



Hon Member: [Inaudible]... notice of motion.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Again, you did not indicate that; 20 minutes has not yet passed, so you can give your notice.


Mr E R LANDSMAN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council-



1. notes that-



16 November marks International Day for Tolerance which is geared towards raising awareness about negative effects of intolerance and how various forms of injustice operation, racism,... [Inaudible] homophobia and unfair discrimination continues to divide individuals and communities around the globe.



2. further notes that-



International Day of Tolerance also seeks to promote tolerance, respect, appreciation and co-operation among the world’s different cultures etiquette to communities, racial groups to continue to work together in peace and a united diversity.


3. to take the opportunity to join the rest of the world to call on people of South Africa on our rich cultural diversity and the positivity that has been originated by the Springboks win of the world cup in Japan and the steering performance the African Netball Team’s performance in the 2019 African Netball Cup of Champions at Bellville in Cape Town. We should use these accomplishments to recommit ourselves to work tirelessly and without any rest to advance our national goal of building a democratic South Africa that is united in our diversity. I so move.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, it breaks my heart because we had three trainings on this, I do not know. You are supposed with great respect to ask the House after the motion without notice whether there is any objection on the motion. The House would then go, yes or no. That step has not been taken. Firstly, that part of the Rules needs to be actually applied. Secondly, a motion without notice does not start at, “at the next sitting of this house, I shall move that”; it actually starts with “I hereby move without notice”. It is small little but we cannot have a fourth training session, but you are supposed with great respect whether this House agrees or not.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you very much hon Michalakis, but all the members indicated that they want to give notices of motion. That is why we are following the process that we are following now.





Agb Zandamela, so leer ons almal, maar so leer ons ook om te luister.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Deputy Chair, I rise on behalf of the EFF to give a notice without motion-



That the House-



debate the-



state of our local municipal councils since many of them in the country are under section 139 and in most of them there is no improvement. I so move that the house in the next sitting debate the state of our municipalities. Thank you.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ...motion now without notice or one with notice. Hon Deputy Chair, what is the Rule here then? There is a 20 minute


time limit for motions. How long is it for motions with notice and how long for motions without notice?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can I ask the hon members one thing?



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: At least you have to announce from the chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can I ask the hon members one thing? Can I use my discretion? Because of the fact that it has been very long that we did not have the opportunity for members to put motions, I know we’ve got Rules but can I use my discretion here. I am just asking the hon members. I am using my discretion here, I am really using my discretion and I would appreciate if other people appreciate it [Applause.] Can hon Mmoeimang... hon Mmoeimang.





Rre K M MMOIEMANG: Ke go tlotlile, Motlatsamodulasetilo wa Ntlo.





I rise in terms of Rule 78(1)(2) to give notice that in the next sitting of the Council I shall move that-


that the Council-



notes that-



this coming Sunday, 17 November marks the World Day of Remembrance for road traffic victims, which is a day commemorated on the third Sunday of November each year, to remember the many millions who are killed and injured on the world’s roads together with their families, friends and many others who are also affected by road accidents.



further notes that-



the World Day of Remembrance for road traffic victims is also a day on which we thank the emergency services and reflects on the tremendous burden and costs of these daily continuing disasters to families, communities and countries and on ways to hold a carnage on our roads. We take this opportunity to remember and pay homage to the millions of our people who were killed in road accidents and those who were injured together with their families, friends and many others who are also affected by road accidents. I so move hon Deputy Chair






(Draft Resolution)



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council—



(1) notes with concern that despite the short-lived relief of rainfall experienced over the past weekend, the dam level for the town of Lydenburg and surrounding areas under the jurisdiction of Thaba Chweu Municipality is still a major concern and that water level is declining rapidly;



(2) also notes that the Lydenburg Dam has a surface area of about


317 360 m² and if the water level drops by a mere meter, approximately 317 000 litres of water is lost;



(3) further notes that even though Thaba Chweu Municipality officials are tasked with the day-to-day operations of service delivery as well as to provide a contingent plan to residents to ensure that they are aware of the dire situation, the municipality has no alternative plan of action


in place to address this matter which could see many residents soon sitting high and dry; and



(4) acknowledges that only under a DA government would all necessary steps have been taken and residents would have been informed of restrictions to ensure that no one is left without water.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr A B GOYIYA: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council—



(1) notes and debates Africa Industrialisation Day, which takes place on 20 November in terms of the United Nation’s General Assembly proclamation and resolution 44/237 of 22 December 1989;


(2) further notes that Africa Industrialisation Day is intended to mobilise the commitment of the international community to the industrialisation of Africa and also serves as a reminder that more than 30 of the world’s 48 least developed countries are located in Africa; and



(3) acknowledges that Africa’s economic emergence and transition from a continent of low-income into middle-income economies, requires transforming the economic structure from predominantly agrarian and extractive activities to more vibrant and value adding industrial sectors like processing and manufacturing.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council—


(1) take serious note of the changing global climate and the urgent need for countries across the world to contribute towards the preservation of natural resources where possible;



(2) further notes that the natural resources such as water is a critical source of life for humanity and nature; and



(3) resolves that water as a basic need must be protected and managed as a priority by all spheres of government in South Africa.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






(Draft Resolution)




Moh S B LEHIHI: Modulasetilo, ke tshisinya kwa ntle ga kitsiso:



Gore Khansele-


(1) e tseye tshweetso ya go pateletsa le go rotloetsa Lefapha la Basadi, Bana le Batho ba ba nang le Dikgwetlho go tlhokomela mafelo a a tlhokomelang batho ba ba nang le dikgwetlho le go ba rebolela ka ledi; gape



(2) jaaka Lefapha la Tirelo ya Dikgopololo le kgona go tlhokomela babeteledi, disenyi le dirukgutlhi le go ba fepa ka dijo bosigo le motshegare, re le lekoko re tshitsinya gore gonne le mafelo a tshireletso le gore a agiwe le go tlhokomelwa ke puso.



Ke tshitsinya seno.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council—



(1) notes with concern the cash-trapped SA Airways is considering of cutting off up to the fifth of its workforce this job cuts


of nearly 1 000 employees will add to the already high unemployment rate;



(2) the SAA sees it necessary to retrench workers to endure that they remain committed to offer its customers the best service and they agreed that they would have to part ways with some of their loyal colleagues;



(3) further notes that according to the president of the National Transport Movement Union, Mashudu Raphetha, the union was not consulted on this plan and the retrenchment of these employees is the direct result of the increased salaries of pilots; and



(4) recognises that if SAA was privatised when the DA originally called it to be sold this retrenchments could have been avoided and less South Africans would not have unemployed.



In light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded with and this motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.





(Draft Resolution)



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the Council—



(1) notes that 25 November to 10 December is set for 16 Days of Activism against gender-based violence;



(2) also notes that the violence against women and children happens almost every day; and



(3) finally, notes the call for participation of all South Africans as a symbol of support.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms L C BEBEE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the Council—



(1) notes that a tornado ripped through Hanover in Pietermaritzburg on Tuesday afternoon, injuring scores of people, damaging homes and public infrastructure;



(2) further notes that a number of homes have collapsed, countless trees have been uprooted and the electricity supply in the area has been interrupted with a number of people possibly missing and two people declared dead;



(3) also notes that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, in KwaZulu-Natal has activated disaster management teams, councillors, volunteers, nongovernment organisations,        the Gift of the Givers Foundation to assist the affected communities; and



(4) conveys its deepest sympathy to the affected people.



Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





(Draft Resolution)



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you Deputy Chair. I move without notice on behalf of the FF Plus:



That the Council-



(1) notes that of the 3 551 dairy producers that provided milk to South Africans in January 2009, the latest statistics indicate that in August 2019 only 1 228 producers remained;



(2) also notes that more than 30 000 jobs have been lost in the agricultural sector since January 2018 as a result of the persistent drought;



(3) acknowledges that, according to the Business Maverick, in South Africa, 37,44% of rural communities are affected by the drought and with an 80% loss of the total game numbers in the past six years, the wildlife sector has felt major hits within the subsectors of hunting and tourism;





(4) kennis neem dat die droogte in talle provinsies maak dit by die dag moeiliker om te boer;



(5) ook kennis neem dat ons boere sukkel om te oorleef en het dringend uitkoms nodig;



(6) verder kennis neem dat, volgens die Minister, is daar nie fondse beskikbaar hiervoor nie en moet die boere versekering uitneem;



(7) erken dat ons as ’n land wel iets kan doen. Ons kan bid en ons boere in ons gebede opdra, en as ’n Parlement kan ons praktiese oplossings vind om voedsel en werk-sekerheid te verseker deur toe te sien dat die nodige hulpbronne aan die boere beskikbaar gestel word; en





(8) further notes, I hereby move that at the next normal Council sitting of the NCOP, the House opens debate on finding solutions to assist all farming communities and their workers in order to avoid an approaching disaster which will not only have a severe impact on the farmers and their workers, but on every South African.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will take that straight as a notice of motion because in terms of the content it sounds like a notice of motion. So, let us put it in the next Order Paper.






(Draft Resolution)



Ms N NDONGENI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the ANC:



That the House-



1. notes that -



(a) the renowned South African writer, activist and poet, Sandile Dikeni, passed away on Saturday, 9 November 2019;



(b) Dikeni was born in Victoria West, Northern Cape, in 1966 and was a student at the then Cape Peninsula University of Technology (CPUT) where he obtained a diploma in Journalism;


(c) he was an Editor of arts for the Cape Times, Editor of Die Suid Afrikaan and Political Editor of This Day South Africa, but also served a stint as a Spokesperson for South Africa’s former Minister of Housing, Ms Lindiwe Sisulu;



(d) Mr Dikeni also had an extensive career in the arts having published the poetry collections namely, Guava Juice and Telegraph to the Sky as well as an anthropology of his newspaper articles and essays; and



2. sends its deepest condolences to his family and friends.



Motion agreed to:



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you just for correctness of the motion; he was student at Cape Peninsula University of Technology (Kaapse Skiereiland Universiteit van Technology).







(Draft Resolution)


Ms M P MMOLA: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the ANC:



That the House-



1. notes that the President of the Republic officially opened the the Mpumalanga High Court on Friday, 08 November, following the commencement of its of function in May this;



2. further notes that this is a milestone towards enhancing access to justice and will provide relief to Mpumalanga residents, who will no longer require to take long trips to the Pretoria High Court, for all serious criminal offence and civil case;



3. realises that the court which cost the state R1,4 billion is a four storey building with 12 court rooms for civil and criminal cases; and



4. congratulates the ANC-led government for ensuring that it continues on its historical task of bring justice closer to the people.


In light of the objection the motion may not be proceeded with.







(Draft Resolution)



Mr S E MFAYELA: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the IFP:



That the House:



1. notes that the Lilly of the Valley Children’s Village in Ilanga Township Pietermatziburg, Umgungundlovu,for orphans is struggling for enough resources in terms of funds and ARVs to treat all the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, positive children;



2. acknowledges that admission rates of children to the village remains high and out of the villages capacity to meet demands;


3. calls on the provincial department of health to intervene and adequately support this village with sufficient funds and resources to meet the needs of all HIV positive children; and



4. encourages all South Africans to consider lending a helping hand through donations of food, money, clothes, toys and community service for this village.



Agreed to:






(Draft Resolution)



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the EFF:



That the House –



1. writes the motion to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula about the military veterans;


2. acknowledges that we are now approaching festive season and military veterans have children, dependents and they are not working, some of them are sick, sleep without food; there is nothing for them to eat.





Ngikhuluma ngaye - idlamlilo lapha...





... because there is no SRD, one of their benefits which was SRD, there is nothing that they are getting now.



3. requests the Minister to tell me, what they are going to do with the military veterans.



There is objection so the motion may not be proceeded with.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms T C MODISE: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the ANC:


That the Council:



1. notes that the senior managers of the world renewed Kruger National Park, following the completion of a prove into allegation of racism and tortured of black people;



2. further notes that the South African National Parks, SANPARKS hired analytical investigation services to the matter that after the black rangers begun speaking out of the theirs suffering in the hands their white colleagues;



3. observes that in a sworn statement made to Automated Fingerprint Identification System, AFIS, the ranges painted the grand grue picture that how they were assaulted in the attempt to force them to confess to the crime that they did commit; and



4. calls on the SANPARK to finalize the disciplinary process against those who have been charged and make sure that justice is served.



In light of the objection we will not precede with the motion, there will be ways to deal with the specific issue.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the DA:



That the Council-



1. notes the water crisis in most municipalities, more especially in the largest towns and the provincial capital of Limpopo;



2. further notes that some towns like Mokopane, Polokwane and Tzaneen are upon the various day zeros and no concrete emergency plans in place to deal with such day zero,



3. realises that various local municipalities are failing to implement and enforce water restriction and in turn are failing to prevent a day zero scenario; and



4. calls on the Select Committee Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation


to investigate the state of this crisis as well as action plans to deal with any day zero as a matter of urgency.



In light of the objection we will not precede with the motion, there will be ways to deal with the specific issue.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are getting closer to the end, so please, Hon Luthuli. Hon members, order in this honourable House. You want to called hon Langsman, it can not be that you really point to another member like that, it can not be.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms S A LUTHULI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice, on behalf of the EFF:



That the Council-



1. notes that the Ministry of Police in its collective wisdom has failed to uphold the oath of office in the matter relating to the murder of Senzo Meyiwa;


2. acknowledges that it has undermined the authority of our country and its credibility;



3. further notes that these are signs on incapacities and gross negligence which led to unbecoming acts in the investigation of Senzo Meyiwa;



4. realises that this has allowed opportunity such as AfriForum to seek legitimacy from our people and hence parade themselves as advocates of justice;



5. orders the department must immediately fire all officers involved in this gross misconduct; and



6. allows the state to intervene through appointing the capacitated team to rework the case of Senzo Meyiwa and finalize it with reasonable time.



Mr S F DU TOIT: I don’t know if there was a miscommunication from your side. You only look in front of you; I even had my hand up. I object it.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There was an objection, why you an issue out of it, there must were an objection.







(Draft Resolution)



Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council-



(1) notes with utmost appreciation and recognition the continued rise to fame and global recognition of our national music maestro and superstar, Maya Christinah Xichavo Wegerif, who is also known as Sho Madjozi;



(2) also notes that Sho Madjozi, who was born in Shirley Village in Limpopo and is the daughter of Rosemary Phaweni and Marc Wegerif who ran a nongovernmental organisation which was made to assist people with their land claims, is now regarded as one of the best performers in Africa;


(3) also notes that her latest song named after and inspired by professional wrestler, actor and television presenter, John Cena ... [Interjections.] ... yes, John Cena, has earned her global recognition; and



(4) takes this opportunity to honour and recognise Sho Madjozi and her continued rise to fame around the world. [Applause.]



Agreed to.






(Draft Resolution)



Mr E J NJANDU: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chair. I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:



That the Council-



(1) notes that hon Madikizela withdrew from the race to become interim party leader of the DA after being instructed to do so by the liberal faction of the DA, in fear of ...


[Interjections.] ... splitting the votes meant for the hon Steenhuisen;



(2) also notes that the classical liberal faction has promised Madikizela their support in the 2020 election conference in return for his withdrawal from the election this weekend in support of hon Steenhuisen; and



(3) further notes that this all happened following the election of Helen Zille as the federal chairperson and the resignation of Maimane as the party leader. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.]



Hlala phansi! Hlala phansi! [Sit down! Sit down!] You can object from your seat. Hon members, there is no motion.



There being an objection, the motion without notice becomes a notice of motion.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are not going to call for further motions. We just made an exception today. Usually we have


just 20 minutes but really, from the day that I started here, there has been no time for motions. So, that’s why we made that exception today. It is only for today. Are you satisfied hon Michalakis?



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, yes, the day is still early but I see the rule book that I sent you worked. Thank you.






Mr Y I CARRIM: Deputy Chairperson ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S Lucas): Hon members, the Report is on the ATC.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Thanks for saying that, Deputy Chairperson, because I was going to draw members’ attention to exactly that. It’s in the ATC. I am tempted to say that there is therefore nothing left for me to say. Everybody has obviously read and memorised the ATC and can now regurgitate it. So, what’s the point of me saying anything?



Of course, the norm is that I should speak, so I will, because that’s the rule.


Firstly, comrades and friends, I want to say that it is in the ATC, as the Deputy Chairperson has pointed out, so I will just cover the key points in it.



The first thing I want to say, Minister, is that, I think we welcome the candour, the openness, the frankness of your input. We are very grateful for it, because many Ministers of Finance in a similar situation in other countries would seek to gloss over the contradictions and the challenges. They would seek to spin. You don’t, and I think that is most welcome. I think it is not just the opposition parties who – for their own purposes – eulogise you for that; so too do most of us in the majority party.



Secondly, we think that ... we understand fully that it is in the February annual Budgets that the Ministers of Finance, in detail, set out the tax, the expenditure, the projections for the next three years, and so on and so on ... and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is just a broad framework. I think you are correct, Minister, to draw attention to the understandable confusion in the public mind and in the minds of even some MPs about the relationship between the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Budget.


We think it’s correct. We don’t have to think it’s correct. It is your right as a Minister to say that we possibly need to review the relationship between the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Budget. What’s wrong with that? We’ve had it since 1997. We are on the pathfinders globally of this idea of a Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, and the Minister is certainly within his rights to ask whether we shouldn’t review it.



But I think what we should be careful about is seeking in some or other way ... not that the Minister is necessarily doing this, but he’ll speak for himself in whatever forum he finds it appropriate to do so ... it’s not appropriate – in my view and the view of the majority in Parliament, not just the two committees – that we dispense with the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. It’s crucially important, not least for the very markets whose confidence the Minister, government and Parliament are seeking to secure. We need to have some sort of sense of where the Budget is likely to go, not least because Parliament would otherwise not be able to effectively and rigorously exercise its oversight.



So, yes, let’s have a debate about the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and its relationship to the Budget. Let’s, in fact, communicate to the public exactly what this relationship is.


In so far as anybody is suggesting that we forego it and that it has no value and so on, I think that is not something ... I can’t speak for the whole Parliament, but I would imagine the Parliament itself would be loathed to dispense with it, not least because not less than a year ago, over a one-and-a-half-year period, we reviewed the Money Bills and Related Matters Act, and no one but no one in civil society or in this Parliament raised that issue.



Thirdly, I think it’s correct: The Minister is in a very invidious position. You have to carry with you a wide range of stakeholders and secure some degree of consensus on where we go. I think it’s more difficult this time around with a Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement than any other Minister has faced.



So, when people demanded more concrete information even with a Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement ... And they are right: This Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, in my view ... certainly since the ones that I have looked at carefully ... and I’m sure chairperson Dikeledi Mahlangu has because we are in these roles as chairs of committees for our sins.



You know, we have been looking at this carefully and it is true to say that this Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement provides less


concrete detail than other Medium-Term Budget Policy Statements. But I don’t want to level that at the Minister, alone. He has to carry his fellow Ministers, civil society actors, political parties out there, the unions, and so on, with him, and I think that might have hindered him from going further. So yes, we accept it.



The opposition parties have raised it, but that’s not going as far as other Medium-Term Budget Policy Statements have, but there are specific circumstances for that. It is better to get consensus than to shoot ahead and then find that you don’t have support for your proposal.



Now, Minister, I want to draw attention to a few things. The one that ... let me now say something that will please your heart and your mind. This is straight up your alley. This came up before you emerged as our Minister. So, sometimes we are more on the same page than you might think! It’s to do with Prof Jannie Rossouw. He has done a lot of work about the amount of money we will save if, as Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, Chairpersons of Houses, Deputy Chairpersons, Speakers, executive committee members, we bought cars manufactured ... well, even if they are assembled here in South Africa ... and how much of the money goes back into the economy ... Straight up your alley. He does it scientifically. It’s not driven


by some ideological view. Well, there’s ideology underpinning it but, you know ...



And we’ve written ...



Chairperson, I really want to draw your attention to this because this is setting a very bad precedent. We discussed it last week. I am struggling to find this thing. We were looking at it only yesterday! Ah, here we are! Let me literally read this, Minister, because this is straight up your alley, I’m sure.



In a previous Fiscal Framework Report it was noted ... and we quote from a previous report:



The committee expresses it serious concern that, although the committee chairperson wrote to The Presidency on

15 November 2018 regarding the fiscal cliff study group’s proposal that members of the executive and government officials buy cars manufactured in South Africa for official use and, following up on this, including with the President’s parliamentary councillor about 10 days before the Budget, there has been no reply.


The committee – this is last week, Minister, Chairperson – expresses its criticism of the Presidency for its failure to reply, and requests the committee chairperson to insist of a response from The Presidency as soon as possible. It was agreed that, because it is a legacy issue, it’s only fair that – although I’m not chairing the Standing Committee on Finance now – it is my responsibility as the chair of that time.



So, I spoke to the Parliamentary councillor yesterday, and I spoke to him today. I didn’t just write. Over a period of three years I have spoken to the parliamentary councillor at least six times. I have spoken to senior officials in the Presidency. I have lobbied your colleagues – Ministers – and asked why we don’t buy Toyota Fortuners, for example, you know, and so on and so on. The Ministers I speak to ... obviously I knew which Ministers to go to who would be empathetic. They said, yes, you are right, it has been raised, and so on.



So, Minister, I don’t know what’s in the ministerial handbook, nor do we. If it’s not there, something should be discussed about this.



In any case, Parliament is entitled to an answer from The Presidency. If we don’t get than answer, Chairperson, then we need


to engage with you and the Speaker. Then we will have to call the President to answer, directly, because the staff are not replying. Or, Mr Rossouw should go to court. The Presidency refuses to reply to Parliament.



So I really think this is an unprecedented issue and we need the powers that be in our House and the House on the other side to actually make a decision on this. We need a reply. This is Parliament. The President is not above Parliament. I have no doubt. I can surmise what his views are on this matter. I think he’ll be very empathetic, and I’m sure he’s not even aware of the point. But, the next time I bump into him, I’m going to raise it directly with him because I think Parliament should not be treated like this. It’s three years now almost since we first contacted the Presidency on that issue.



Then on the pensioners, Minister, we are not populists. But they came here from Msunduzi, Pietermaritzburg. I didn’t mobilise them. They came here. For three years in a row now, right? And they came and they presented their case in IsiZulu. We’ve been raising this about simultaneous interpreting. Let’s discuss it off line. But the fact is they say they need a national minimum wage. We say, of course, morally, even the Minister ... we have to say “even the


Minister” because, you know, it’s hard on money. But still, I’m sure, even the Minister empathises, right?



But, hey, we can’t take it to a national minimum wage overnight. In any case, it’s a trade off. It was translated into IsiZulu, right? So, they knew full on what we were saying. We said to them, look, the very issues that are ... [Inaudible.] ... national insurance affects you the most, as pensioners and the poor. If you talk about free basic education, it affects you. If you talk about welfare grants, it has been balanced against all of that.



But what I’m saying, Minister, is we are not populists. We largely empathise with where you are. We think though that the answers to the problems ... even we agree ... [Inaudible.] ... is not only the answers that National Treasury provides. And we are still stuck with a National Treasury that thinks that it and only it has all and every answer. That’s not the approach. There are options that we can have.



And like never before, we must depoliticise the Budget now. We are in a crisis situation, right? And we should really forget some of our party politics. Really. We need to work together, whatever our differences. Our country ... We need to work with civil society,


with the private sector, with the trade unions, and we need to move fast on this. We need the same goodwill we had immediately after Mr Mandela became President, and that 1994, 1996 ... [Inaudible.]



And Chairperson, you and the House Chair have a crucial role to play in this regard. Thank you very much to all of you.



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



Declaration of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, you will be surprised there will be people to do declarations after I am done. Hon Deputy Chair, the flimsy 21 page report represents hours of work by the committee of the NA and the NCOP but also of many other institutions and individuals who took time to engage critically and constructively with the contents of the Minister of Finance’s Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. These institutions and members of the public are to be appreciated by us as Members of Parliament as they represent the people who elected us to be here to speak on their behalf.


Admittedly, some of the inputs were from narrow interest groups and addressed only specific issues. However, there are issues which need to be highlighted and which should be brought to our attention as legislators. It is our role to practically evaluate the proposals of the Executive; to interrogate them through the eyes of our people and to ensure that this Parliament passes laws that are fair and just. The pleas of people of benches to consider the need to cries of tobacco industries to make level playing fields, where laws are equally applied, the savour reckling of Cosatu and their members feel the pressure of Marion Fiscus. The harsh realities of a fiscal cliques study groups, the SA Institutes of Chartered Accountants and the Budget Justice Coalition, the warnings from Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse, OUTA and Women and the Innovations of Short Sporters. All of this fit into the picture that we were presented with. Yet the FFC, a constitutional mandate and entity who gave the input to the committee had to describe to them the supreme arrogance of Treasury, the disdain with which inputs are treated.



While we appreciates the presence of the Minister today his absence yesterday when he was required to be here to answer questions is perhaps a confirmation of the arrogance of Treasury. The current fiscal climate is bleak. This is no time for business as usual.

Treasury’s arrogance has brought us here. They are instructed in


section 216 of the Constitution to exercise control over the country’s finances. They have failed. They must now submit themselves to this House and begin the account.



The Minister needs to...



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon Laubuschagne is misleading the House when she says the Minister absented himself yesterday whereas in our consultation there is agreement to differ the questions to the Minister of Finance for the said date as agreed by the House. This is incorrect to mislead a House.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, because I was presiding over this House yesterday and we accepted the apology from the Minister with the difference of the questions to the next sitting on 27 November. We have accepted the apology. So, I do not want a debate on this one.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The Minister needs to heel to our oversight and begin to act like he is part of the solution. Take charge Minister, Eskom needs a CEO and Minister missed his deadline. SA Airways needs an effective plan, local government needs reinvention and Cosatu


needs to come on board. You hold the key. The report is accepted and the committee administration is congratulated on a difficult task.

Well done.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members, allow me to express my gratitude in allowing me to table this report from the select committee. Indeed, the select committee received a briefing from the Department of Trade and Industry on the Economic Partnership Agreement between the Southern African Custom Union and


Mozambique and the United Kingdom on the 5 November 2019 with the intention to recommend for ratification by Parliament.



The members were made aware of the conclusion of talks involving the governments of the United Kingdom and South Africa. These talks have sought agreement on terms that would apply to our trade relationship should the United Kingdom leave the European Union without an appropriate withdrawal agreement. The importance of this agreement cannot be over emphasized. In 2018, bilateral trade between our countries was worth R142 billion.



The United Kingdom is our fourth largest market for exports, behind only China, Germany and the United States; and it is the seventh largest supplier of imported goods. Hon Chair, it is estimated that our exports to the United Kingdom supports 56 500 direct jobs and a further 117 500 indirect jobs, bringing the total number of jobs supported by exports to the United Kingdom to nearly 175 000.



Hon Chair, how is current trade facilitated between the United Kingdom and South Africa? As with all members of the European Union, trade with the United Kingdom has to date been facilitated under what is known as the SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement, EPA. The SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement provides for the tariff


arrangements applicable to trade between six SADC countries and any of the 28 European Union member states. The SADC countries are; South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Eswatini and Mozambique. A number of products are duty free and there are detailed trade rules set out in the Economic Partnership Agreement to make trade relations easier between ourselves.



Why do we need a new Economic Partnership Agreement between South Africa and the United Kingdom? Hon members will know that following a referendum held in the United Kingdom in 2016, the United Kingdom has notified the European Union of its intention to leave the European Union by 31 October this year, the date has now been extended to the 31 January 2020. If there is no agreement on the terms of the departure, it will be in the form of a no-deal exit.



This will have a material impact on the six SACUM countries, including South Africa, which trade with the United Kingdom under the terms of the existing SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement. All trade will then fall under standard World Trade Organisation rules, which means that the normal import tariffs would apply and many of our products will lose duty-free status.


For South Africa and for the SACUM countries, reverting to trade on World Trade Organisation terms would incur significant costs. In March this year, the United Kingdom published an interim tariff regime in the event of it leaving the European Union customs union and in the absence of a replacement to the SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement. If this were to occur, South Africa would lose preferential access to the United Kingdom market on 114 products, affecting exports of around R7 billion. This affects among others, vehicles, auto components, wine, textiles and clothing, sugar, fish and machinery. In some cases, this may lead to a loss of exports completely, which would be significant for a number of provinces.



In addition, United Kingdom exports to SACUM countries would be subject to higher tariffs, which may also increase the costs of these products in South Africa, and if they are input costs into South African-made products, it will hurt local industries.



What has been the process to establish a new Economic Partnership Agreement between South Africa and the United Kingdom? To avoid the disruption to South Africa’s exports and that of the region, the SACUM countries engaged with the United Kingdom over a roughly two- year period. An expedited process for the negotiations saw


significant ground covered in addressing issues, and the final terms were concluded by our SACUM officials in Gaborone.



What measures are contained in the new Economic Partnership Agreement between South Africa and the United Kingdom?



The new agreement, which will be known as the SACUM-UK Economic Partnership Agreement, will effectively roll-over and replicate the terms of trade present in the existing SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement. It will allow for seamless, uninterrupted trade to continue between ourselves and the United Kingdom. The tariff arrangements under the SADC-EU Economic Partnership Agreement have been carried over to cover our trade with the United Kingdom.



The new agreement includes the details as follows:


The quota levels for certain products of duty-free trade; health and safety standards for agricultural products; the rules to determine whether a particular good qualifies as locally made and are therefore eligible for preferential trade rates; and whether goods which have been processed partially in an EU-state can still qualify under the rules of origin. This is called cumulation.


Hon Deputy Chairperson, it has also been agreed to what is called a built-in agenda which is a list of matters that further negotiations will be conducted on after the agreement comes into effect. These include issues such as:



The right of countries to use export taxes to promote local industries; crediting South African-made inputs in products made in other SACUM countries, when we export these to Britain in future.



The new Economic Partnership Agreement will come into effect in the event that the United Kingdom leaves the European Union on

31 January 2020, and will govern bilateral trade between the six SACUM countries on the one side and the United Kingdom on the other side. This is an important agreement to provide certainty and predictability for exporters. It will ensure that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, trade between the United Kingdom and South Africa will continue on the same terms. This means that South African businesses which use South Africa as an export base to the United Kingdom can begin to plan, knowing that their preferential access will be protected. It means that those investors, which were holding back on capital commitments until they received certainty, can begin to invest again. And it means that the thousands of workers from


across this country, whose jobs are supported by trade with the United Kingdom, can feel confident that this ANC-led government is working for them.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, the select committee, after due consideration of the briefing, decided to recommend to the NCOP plenary for the ratification of the Economic Partnership Agreement between the Southern African Custom Union and Mozambique and the United Kingdom. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.





Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the control of firearms has been a contentious issue in South Africa, and with the inception of the Firearms Control Act 2000 in 2003, it promised an effective way of firearm control administered by the South African Police Service, SAPS. The Central Firearm Register, CFR, was established to process and monitor firearm ownership through applications and renewals.



Section 139(1) of the Firearms Control Act provides that the Minister of Police may, by notice in the Gazette, declare an amnesty if the amnesty may result in the reduction of the number of illegally possessed firearms in South Africa and it is in the public interest to do so.



Section 139(2) of the Act also provides that such amnesty will only be valid if it is approved by Parliament. In terms of section 138 of the Firearms Control Act, “amnesty” means an indemnity against prosecution for the unlawful possession of a firearm and ammunition.



The firearms amnesty is an important process as it has the potential to decrease the number of illegal firearms in South Africa, particularly in light of our fight against crime and our objective of halving crime by 2030 — this amnesty process is important.


However, in order to effectively receive the firearms and to ensure a successful amnesty, the select committee had to ensure that SAPS was ready in respect of their planning, implementation and particularly in ensuring that provincial police stations have received adequate training.



The select committee met on 11 September 2019 and received a briefing from the South African Police Service on the amnesty. The select committee raised a number of concerns related to the safe keeping of surrendered firearms and ammunition, police procedure to destroy surrendered firearms and ammunition as well as concerns with the process for citizens in legal possession of licences that expired.



The committee therefore required the assurance from SAPS that the conditions which affect the success of an amnesty were indeed complied with and that public trust was restored in SAPS.



Deputy Chair, SAPS is required to respond to the select committee on the matters raised, and on the meeting of the select committee on 30 October 2019, a further briefing from SAPS on the outstanding matters was received. The committee noted with concern the infrastructural challenges faced by SAPS in respect of their Central


Firearms Registry and the committee requested that SAPS addresses this challenge as expeditiously as possible.



The committee further reiterated that SAPS should ensure that all provinces are suitably trained and that the designated firearms officers are vetted accordingly. The committee, however, recognises the importance of the recovery of illegal firearms and the potential impact it may have on the reduction of violence and crime in South Africa.



The committee was therefore pleased to note that during the 2010 amnesty which ran for a period of three months, SAPS reported that it had received a total of 11 887 illegal firearms and a total of

139 234 rounds of ammunition. We therefore recognise that the amnesty will play an important role in the recovery and destruction of illegal firearms and that other measures undertaken by SAPS such as roadblocks, searches and raids will assist in reducing violence and fighting crime in South Africa.



The select committee, after satisfying itself on the readiness of SAPS for the amnesty, and after due consideration, approved the Minister’s request for an amnesty period from 1 December 2019 to 31


May 2020 and recommends that the National Council of Provinces adopts the report and approves the amnesty.



The committee also requested the Minister of Police to consider declaring a separate process for the renewal of expired licenses that should run concurrently to the amnesty period. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Declaration of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The Western Cape province will, as the only government with a clear project to combat crime actively and decisively, of course support any initiative that will bring down crime.



However, there was no proof put before the committee that firearms amnesty assists in this regard, even after it was asked. We believe the contrary to be true in recent years. Furthermore, South African Police Service doesn’t have basic data readily available on firearms in their possession, they make no provision for the separation of renewal firearms from weapons to be destroyed, and 46 stations will


be excluded from this process, but the names of these aren’t yet publicly known.



The South African Police Service is under the illusion that trust between them and the public has been restored and it cannot be absolutely guaranteed that these weapons will not, like in the past, end up in criminal hands.



There are also serious concerns about the training of SAPS to be able to enforce this amnesty effectively and correctly. What is more, in a recent reply to Parliament, it was acknowledged that SAPS lost 500 of its own service weapons. They also lost 9 million 9mm rounds of their own ammunition. If they can’t even look after their own weapons, how will they be able to ensure that these weapons handed in - of which we have no guarantee about available storage space either - will not also disappear. This is over and above the fact that the actual criminals are usually not inclined to just hand in their firearms.



Deputy Chairperson, the purpose of firearms amnesty should be to reduce crime if it is in the public interest to do so. If the SAPS cannot guarantee its success, and we believe they absolutely cannot at this stage, then it is certainly not in the public interest.


For this reason, the Western Cape cannot support this initiative until such a time as the department and SAPS can give clarity and guarantees on these matters. The safety of the public comes first.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



AGAINST: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.








Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the select committee has received progress reports from the Magistrates Commission for its consideration in the Sixth Parliament. These reports arise from matters related to magistrates who had serious charges of misconduct against them and which had been dealt with by the Select Committee


on Security and Justice in the Fifth Parliament. The select committee has a statutory obligation and is empowered in terms of section 13 of the Magistrates Act to pass a resolution to either confirm a provisional suspension recommended by the Minister in terms of section 13(3)(c), or not to confirm such suspension in terms of section 13(3)(d) of the Magistrates Act of 1993. The Select committee may also pass a resolution to confirm the withholding of the remuneration of a magistrate who is on suspension in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act.



On 4 September 2019, the Select Committee on Security and Justice received a briefing from the Magistrates Commission on the progress of inquiries made against four magistrates. In terms of section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrate’s Act of 1993, the Magistrates Commission must cause a report on the progress made in respect of inquiries against magistrates who have been provisionally suspended from office to be submitted to Parliament every three months. The Magistrate’s Commission reported progress to the committee as follows: Magistrate J F Van Schalkwyk, the Chief Magistrate at Kempton Park, the matter was not finalised since 2013. The Magistrate’s Commission charged Ms Van Schalkwyk with 18 counts of misconduct. The charges relate to gambling during office hours, borrowing money from subordinates that she failed to repay, making


misrepresentations to the Judge President of Gauteng during her stint as an acting judge, in that she handed down judgements which were not written by herself but by magistrates under her control and on occasion by an attorney. These judgments were furthermore prepared prior to hearing arguments of counsel.



Magistrate Van Schalkwyk had been suspended as a magistrate by the Minister on 4 June 2013. On 12 November 2013, Parliament confirmed Ms Van Schalkwyk’s provisional suspension from office. On 23 May 2018, the select committee confirmed that Ms Van Schalkwyk’s remuneration should be withheld in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993. The Magistrates Commission advised the committee that there were various delays with the finalisation of the matter due to the many court applications submitted by Magistrate Van Schalkwyk to delay the proceedings. The Magistrate’s Commission is working towards a speedy conclusion of this matter.



On Magistrate E S Nzimande, the Regional Court President in KwaZulu- Natal, a charge sheet dated 31 August 2018, containing 50 counts of misconduct, was served on Mr Nzimande on O4 September 2018. Some of the charges relate to receiving monetary benefits for appointing persons to acting positions in the regional courts within his regional division as well as charges related to sexual harassment.


On 27 February 2019, the select committee had confirmed the provisional suspension of Magistrate Nzimande. The Magistrates Commission reported to the committee that a date for the hearing of Mr Nzimande‘s matter will be finalised soon.



On Magistrate L B Freeman, the Senior Magistrate at Mossel Bay, a charge sheet dated 17 November 2017, containing 24 counts of misconduct was served on Ms Freeman on 23 November 2017. Magistrate Freeman was dishonest in her application for the position which the commission found out at a later stage. The Magistrates Commission at the time was unable to conduct a proper vetting of Ms Freeman. The Magistrate’s Commission advised the committee that the vetting procedure has since been improved. On 23 August 2018, the select committee confirmed the provisional suspension from the office of Magistrate Freeman in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993. The commission advised the committee that the inquiry is postponed until 12 September 2019, for the presiding officer to impose a sanction.



On Magistrate M D Hinxa, the Chief Magistrate in Bloemfontein, the commission reported that there was an allegation of rape against Mr Hinxa. The complaint was submitted to the department on 2 November 2016 and referred to the commission for attention. The magistrate


had been charged with serious allegations of misconduct and on the


23 May 2018, the select committee confirmed his provisional suspension from office in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993. The inquiry is postponed and the committee was advised that the hearing would continue from 30 September to 4 October 2019.



In the committee’s interaction with the Magistrate’s Commission, the committee noted the delays in the hearings of magistrates. The committee also requested the Magistrate’s Commission to respond to a range of its concerns including some of the following: whether the lower courts had monitoring mechanisms in place to review the performance of magistrates and whether employee wellness programmes were in place.



The select committee noted, with concern, that it was shocking that crime is perpetrated by the very people entrusted with holding the office of a magistrate and encouraged the Magistrate’s Commission to finalise the hearings as expeditiously as possible. The Select Committee on Security and Justice recommends that the National Council of Provinces adopts the report. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Deputy Chair, the petition dealt with the report


... the petitioner, Mr Ndlovu, who was claiming his rights of his own mother who passed on, of a property which was situated at Thokoza hostel. The erf number was 8017. And Mr Ndlovu was basing his claim on the convention of certain rights into Leasehold or Ownership Act, Act 81 of 1988.



Chairperson, that’s the basis of this petition and I am hoping that you did receive it; its copies were Announcements, Tablings and


Committee Reports, ATCd, to all of you. I’m sure you understand the processes that we have followed. But what is important now is to report to the House how far are we as the committee in terms of dealing with the report itself.



We undertook a visit to Gauteng after we have called Mr Ndlovu to present his case, to do a loco inspection of the place where the property was. And after doing that we also invited the Department of Human Settlements and also the Department Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs as well as the municipality that is affected.



I must indicate that the municipality was quite clear to say to us: The Act that Mr Ndlovu is basing his claim from doesn’t apply in terms of the municipality itself because the municipality is governed by Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, which prohibits the municipality from financially compensating the petitioner.



We then engaged between ourselves and the municipality and the department with Mr Ndlovu present, and we made some proposal because at that time we discovered that Mr Ndlovu has already occupied two stands within the municipality: erf 1184 and erf 1134; which he felt strongly that it would compensate his mother’s stand. But


unfortunately, the erf that he had identified were not readily rezoned by the municipality: one was meant for business and the other one was not yet identified what was it going to be used for by the municipality.



The committee discovered that during their negotiations between the municipality and Mr Ndlovu, there were some concessions in terms of compensating him without giving him rands and cents. But we said because this case is quite a very long case, which started since 2004 and us as NCOP we only received it in 2018.



In their concession they are agreeing that they will look at the issue of giving him one of the stands between the two that I have referred to.



And we recommended, as the committee, as follows:



The committee concluded that timeframe of four months be given within which the municipality should report back to the NCOP on the outcome of the settlement negotiations - which I have referred to. This should be done by providing NCOP with a progress report within

120 days of tabling this report to council.


In the process leading to the four months period, the municipality is requested to provide the NCOP with a monthly progress report indicating steps the municipality has taken to facilitate an action; the proposed settlement negotiation with Mr Ndlovu’s family.



Progress on engagement with the Department of Human Settlements in terms of the convention of the erf and the progress on the engagement with the department of real estate on the proposed process for the swap transaction.



The municipality should also provide the committee with timeframe within which rezoning the erf should take place, since it is estimated that the entire process of rezoning should take approximately four months to finalise. The municipality should provide the committee with up to date monthly report on zoning – as I have indicated.



Those are the recommendations that the committee has made to the Ndlovu family regarding the matter. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. [Applause.]



Question put:





Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




9 OCTOBER 2019




Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very Deputy Chairperson, must I correct that I’m Z V Ncitha? Thank you very much, Chair.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lukas): You can do it for the record, it’s very important.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson, if that is allowed. The committee sat on 5 September looking at Executive Undertakings by the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation and again, Chair, I assume that you have looked at the undertakings. I will go straight to the recommendations of the committee. I must first indicate that one of the things that we have identified as the committee is that the Department of Human Settlements, Water and


Sanitation now needs to set timeframe in terms of finalisation of their projects because, one, we have noted that they have projects that are incomplete and in terms of their records you will pick up that the information that they have is not inline with what we know as people that are residing in those provinces.



Our recommendations, therefore, are as follows: the commission resolved that department had to look into timeframes as I have indicated regarding the outcome of its projects; two, the committee observed that it preferable we would like the department when they report to the committee it should be a report that indicate projects and programmes that they are doing inline with provinces so that we are able to follow up on the information that they gave to the committee. The department had undertaken the task of doing a cost analysis valued in material. Therefore, we are saying that the department should make sure that that is happening. The committee also said that there had not been an advocacy campaign to educate people on the availability of Government Employment Housing Scheme, so many employees of the department does not know about that. So, we are pleading with the department to popularise such scheme. The committee noted with extreme concern that the issue of title deeds is still a problem within the department and we pleaded with the Minister to deal with the matter urgently.


The department to expedite the process of attending to the following projects: the implementation of Housing Loan Human Settlement Funds to government employees, who do not qualify for Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, that the Minister’s task team be established to assist provinces and municipalities to expedite the process of re-registration of title deed by removing excessive bureaucracy compliances. Those are the recommendations by the committee. I thank you, Comrade Chair. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






There was no debate.



Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Chairperson, again the committee set on 5 September 2019, with the Minister of Social Development looking at the executive undertakings and hon Chair, I am sure you have gone through them. We will go straight to the recommendations of the committee.



In noting the progress report made by the Minister in relations to the implementation of the executive undertaking under review the committee made the following observations and key findings: There were many issues that were hindering success of the social workers graduate programme. Some provinces were hiring the social workers after they have graduated and some did not. A good example is the Western Cape. It is taking those social workers on contract bases.



The second one is the Ministerial Committee on Social Welfare, brought critical recommendations that the department would have to implement to strengthen the foster care programme which is very important for those who take care of the kids. The Department of Social Development wanted to have a specialised unit that would monitor the success of the programme namely “You Only Live Once,”


Yolo, which teaches sexual and reproductive rights to children and also to the youth in high schools.



The other one was the approval in principle of the idea of creating a social security retirement fund for every one who is working. A proposal for a comprehensive international framework to ensure not only that no one fell through the cracks, but also make sure that there was no double-dipping of the benefits.



The introduction of the Social Assistance Bill which is meant to address current backlog in foster care, the Bill will create immediate grant children who stay with guardians who qualify for foster care, but could not wait for the long period it took to have a foster care grant executed.



The committee concluded that a timeframe of three months within which the department should report back to the NCOP on the implementation of pay points infrastructure by providing the NCOP with a progress report in this regard because it was one of their undertaking.



The department to provide the NCOP with Excel provincial figures in relation to the early childhood development grants from 2017-18,


2018-19 and 2019-20 financial years, the condition for the implementation of the grant by the province.



All provinces are requested to apply and align a uniform approach regarding the employment of social workers. In this regard the committee recommended engagement between the Department of Basic Education and the province to create a uniform in the implementation and retention condition of services of the social workers.



The Department of Basic Education and the Department of Social Development are to provide the NCOP with a report indicating who the custodian of the Early Childhood Development, ECD, programme is. The report should outline the role and the responsibility of both the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Social Development, because out there, there is confusion as to who is the custodian of such programme. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.


Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Cllr T B MATIBE: Hon House Chair, the Select Committee on Public Enterprises and Communication undertook an oversight visit to the South African Post Office, Sapo, the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa as well as Broadband Infrastructure Company, BBI, from 21 to the 25 of October 2019, and wish to report as follows:



Following our adoption of the committee’s strategic plan, which formed the basis of the committee’s annual performance plan, where we identified the state-owned companies that we wished to visit. We then as a committee identified the three state-owned entities that we said we are going to visit. Hon House Chairperson, you will recall that the South African Post Office was confronted with a quite a number of challenges in the past five years ranging from cash flow shortages, labour disputes, late payment of suppliers, as


well as issues relating to senior managers in acting positions. During our last visit we were refreshed to realise that the post office is moving into the right direction.



We visited the post office however; we identified other areas where we think that there are still some challenges that need to be looked at. Some of the observations that we did, hon members have got the reports. We have made Announcements, Tablings and Committee, ATCed the reports and I will not go through the whole report. Some of the observations that we have done as a committee as a committee during our oversight is that, in terms of Sapo is concerned the Icasa is not adequately monitoring and ensuring that 1kg parcel couriers are observed by the post office competitors, logistic courier business in terms of the law.



The 1kg couriers are reserved for Sapo in terms of the law. So, Icasa is also not assisting us in that regard. That is one observation that we did. Another observation that we did is that most of the facilities of the Sapo are not accessible to people with disabilities. You will remember that Sapo is also dealing with the issue of grants now and that would mean that elderly people will not be able to access our post offices. So those are some of the observations that we did. After those observations we went to the


Icasa, BBI and after that the committee made the following recommendations:



The Minister should ensure that there is co-ordination among relevant state-owned companies to resolve any discrepancies such as the one identified in the post office. That is where Icasa is supposed to monitor Sapo competitors I terms of handling of the 1kg reserved parcels for Sapo. The Minister should ensure that all Sapo branches are made to be accessible to people with disabilities and elderly people so that they are more comfortable when accessing the grants through the post office.



The other recommendation that we put forward to the council is that we need to resolve the problem of state-owned entities and make sure that Minister should ensure that the proposed merger between Sentec and Broadband Infraco is also facilitated in a manner that would not impose financial risk to us looking at the challenges that we are facing. We submit the report, House Chairperson.



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.


In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The Council adjourned at 16:04.




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