Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 29 Oct 2019


No summary available.




TUESDAY, 29 October 2019

Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2D10f29aKc



The Council met at 14:08.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP:      Hon members, in accordance with Council Rule 247(1), there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions Without Notice, except the Motion on the Order Paper. Can the secretary please read the Order Paper? We will refer to the Chief Whip.






The Chief Whip of the Council moved: That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for Oral Questions; the Council considers reports of Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs,



Water and Sanitation and Human Settlements - to be entertained immediately after the Ministers’ Responses to Questions.



Question put: That the Motion on the Order Paper be agreed to.



IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, as there is no Speaker’s List, we shall now move over to the questions. Members will remember that what has been said is that we should deal with these matters in a slightly different fashion. Now that we are done with the motion, we will now move over to questions. Remember we said that we are going to deal with the motion, Oral Questions and then reports, instead of doing it the other way round.



So, we will move onto the Oral Questions. Members should remember that in dealing with the questions, we have to remind members that as we do so, we must just please remember that the supplementary question asked will have to relate to original question. There are



four supplementary questions per question. So, the first question is Question 167 from Ms T C Modise and it is directed to the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. Minister!



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order! Sorry, I just want to rise on a point of order regarding Questions 140 and 164, which bears Mr Smit’s name, as indicated in stars. It is not him that raised the questions but myself. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Let us just note it. I am sure one can say this in advance: That Question 140 will be put by Mr Smit; and Question 142 by hon Labuschagne.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Pleasure, thank you!






Question 167:




Chairperson and hon members, hon Modise, indeed in terms of your question, there are plans by government to dispose land for



commercial and residential purposes as part of land redistribution. Land reform is not only about agricultural development, but also relates to urban land reform that would deal with issues of human settlements, as well as industrial development.



You will note that President Ramaphosa, in his state of the nation address in June this year, indicated that government will speedily release land that it holds in its assets for agriculture as well as human settlements. So, that work is being undertaken. Soon the Interministerial Committee on Land Reform, IMC on Land Reform, chaired by the Deputy President, will make such announcements.



It is also necessary to indicate that some of the land that is well located for urban development - either for industry - will equally be made available for those purposes, in order to also ensure that we support industrial development and at the same time change our spatial pattern development. We do have a State Land Lease and Disposal Policy which outlines how the state undertakes disposal where necessary. Thank you very much.



Ms T C MODISE: Hon Chair, Minister, I just want to check with you: Are there any future plans on alignment and integration of land use



management between the spheres of government? If yes, where are they; and if no, what are the relevant details of that? Thank you.





Thank you very much, hon Modise, although this is actually a new question, I would assist in answering it. We do have the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, as you know it. We have also as Cabinet approved the spatial development framework, SDF, which actually gives indication to all spheres of government on how our spatial development should be undertaken in the country.



In terms of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, that development framework must actually be released for comments within

60 days. That is what we had already done. So, we are waiting for comments from citizens in terms of spatial development framework, after which we will then bring it to Cabinet for finalisation. Thank you very much.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon chair, it is hon Smit. Hon Minister, will you commit to transferring these pieces of land together with their title deeds to the relevant individual beneficiaries; and by when?





member, at the moment, the way in which government does release land for agricultural development in particular is through the leasehold of 30 years, with an option to buy. That is done primarily to ensure that different beneficiaries who receive such land can put it to good use so that in a period at least of five years.



The state can monitor, support where necessary and ensure that indeed this individual can use this land productively. That has been borne out of an experience over the years where we found people who have been assisted by the state, where land has been transferred and titled, but some of them within a year sold that land.



It does, therefore, not assist in terms of your distribution. It is also necessary for me to indicate that actually, when you look at freehold tenure, it is not only entitled: You can have user rights; and you can have leasehold, which is an acceptable tenure system in our country - and actually anywhere else globally.



If you have got a 30-year lease tenure, you can actually undertake any development that you want. It is not only that you must have title in order to even get credit on the land that you want to use. Thank you very much.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, Minister, the land reform approach from 1994 onwards has been focused on developing a class on black commercial farmers. This has obviously not worked because that was not a backed-up plan by a solid programme of support from government. As a result, many emerging black farmers find themselves locked up in an agrarian value chain that marginalised all of them. A few considered introducing a new land and agricultural strategy, whose foundation is to promote and support smallholder agricultural farmers.





Thank you very much, hon Mokause, for your question. It is necessary for me to indicate that from 1994, there have been forms of addressing the needs for agriculture as well as human settlements.

You would recall that certain interventions, starting from ’94 was through the Settlement and Production Land Acquisition Grant, Splag, assisted people who wanted to acquire land for whatever purposes, even for livelihoods, to do so.



We then had the land reform for agrarian development, where people would actually make their own contribution and get loan agreements. But, you are right: There had been weaknesses that we have never actually had targeted farmer settlement support to those people who



want to become commercially viable as a state in a concerted way. Those are the issues that we are reviewing.



Some of the interventions that had been made, we are building on them, to ensure that we don’t just give people land without adequate support for them to become fully-fletched commercial farmers, even though they are operation at a smallholder. You can be commercial, whether smallholder, medium or large scale, depending on the enterprise that you have chosen, but also on the agro-ecological zone where you are farming.



In the Northern Cape, 1 000 hectares can be smallholder because of the ecological zone of that area – it is drier. Therefore, the carrying capacity of the land - particularly if you do a livestock - can never be the same with somebody who is farming 250 hectares in the Eastern Cape, where the vegetation as well as water resources is better than in the Northern Cape.



So, for me, what is important in the question that you are raising is that as government, when we undertake land reform, we must put targeted support until those individuals can be able to stand on their own. Thank you very much.



Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, Minister, thank you for your answers. I did note however that the original question relates specifically to land for commercial and residential purposes, but you chose to answer hon Smit in relation to agriculture. I will be glad if you can answer my question relating specifically to the original question. What I like to say is that we have seen ANC membership cards and proximity to power and even financial transactions being used as part of the criteria for land reform up until now. What will the criteria be into the future; and will the process be transparent?





member, I wouldn’t want to enter into the debate on the observations that you are making. We have actually developed beneficiary selection policy, which will be made public, so that all of us would know if you are applying for land: What is the criterion that is being looked at when an assessment is made for you to be considered for any form of assistance by the state. You are correct, as I said earlier, that some of the follow-up questions are really new questions, but I have been very generous to answer them.



The issue is about state land disposal and the question was whether government has plans to do so. I said yes! What I tried to clarify



was that land redistribution is not just about agriculture; it is also about human settlements; and it is also about industrial development. The reality is that in our country, I think the focus – both in terms of beneficiaries, but also even in the psyche of the society – has been about agriculture.



This may be true because large-scale landownership is in the hands of those who are farmers and producers. Probably that is the reason why the focus has been around that land, but it doesn’t mean land reform is only about agriculture. It is about reforming our landownership patterns, which include economic activity and which includes residential land. Thank you. [Applause.]



Question 140:




Thank you very much, hon Smit. This relates to the matter of David Rakgase. The question as indicated is, why – if I may look at it correctly – have we taken the decision to withdraw the appeal against the court? It is important for me to say that it was proper for government not to pursue that matter. First and foremost, the matter of Rakgase relates to state land that was in the former homelands under the SA Development Trust. That land was known as



fallow land in terms of the Agricultural Credit Board, in particular.



What has then happened at the time when we looked at the various communities, particularly farmers, who were allocated that land to use on a lease basis, it was in the areas of the then Bophuthatswana, Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal, Makhathini Flats, Port St Jones and many others. The view of the government at the time was that these people for many years have been locked in a system where they can never be able to make meaningful investments in continuing with their agricultural development. So, a decision was taken that this land must be disposed to those individuals and they must be given the first right of refusal, particularly, those who were working the land.



So, the category of Rakgase falls in that system. The land size that was being used at the time, not only by Rakgase, was about 3000 plus hectares. When that offer was made, an objection came from some of the farmers in that area who said that it was not only Rakgase who was using the entirety of the land but he was using, yes, the majority. Therefore, they felt that the whole portion can’t be sold to one individual. It was an issue that the department considered.

Therefore, in the offer to purchase to Rakgase, the hectares was not



the whole of the 3000. That is where the contest became hence the process was never concluded. We appreciate that being the case. We said when the matter has served in court, and the court has ruled in the manner in which they had we will abide by the court decision and that is the stand. That is why we have decided not to pursue that matter. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Just for correction, I am not mme Smith, I am Mr Smit. [Laughter.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In case someone had a doubt, yea. [Laughter.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Minister, I hear what you are saying but there is a section that you have left out. It is that, there was an option that was originally given to Mr Rakgase to purchase the land and then it changed to a lease agreement, which is the case with many others. However, hon Minister, today it is your opportunity to apologise to not only Mr David Rakgase, but also to all the other farmers like himself who have been cheated by your department and this government from not being able to own the land they worked on. Will you commit that all similar cases will be finalised and the land be transferred to the farmers for full ownership? Again, please



provide us with a timeline within which this land will be transferred to the rightful owners. Thank you.





Thank you very much, hon member. I really would like us to respond to the question that you asked. The question was; why has the government not appealed? We have explained. In this matter publicly the Ministry as well as the department we did indicate that it is unfortunate that there might have been an impression created that the state would oppose the matter or rather appeal. So, we did that. I don’t think it will be necessary for us to hype on that matter because that matter should inform all of us on how best we resolve issues where there are problems. So, the judgement in our view is instructive on how we should deal with other matters that are similar to that of Rakgase. Thank you. [Applause.]



AN HON MEMBER: Chair, there are members this side as well.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Laughter.] Yea, noted.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Through you, Chair, hon Minister, considering the continuous withholding of full ownership of land from farmers who were cheated into long term lease agreements by your predecessors,



do you agree and share the same sentiments of your Deputy Minister, Skwatsha and predecessor Minister Kwinti, who blatantly said – at various occasions – that black South Africans cannot be trusted to own land, therefore, the state should hold their land and manage it on their behalf? If you do not agree with that, please, indicate your action plan to transfer all land held by government on behalf of the black South Africans to them individually. It is a shame that that has been said.





Thank you very much, hon member. Indeed, that is a new question in respect of the Rakgase matter. I think it is important for us as South Africans to reflect on our tenuous system as it pertains today. We have multiple tenure systems in South Africa, not one. You have got your freehold which is narrowly limited to title and we have the majority of the South Africans who happen to have been put on 30% of land, whose rights on land are not even recorded, it is actually under the Ministry of land as a custodian. These are the matters in South Africa that in my view we need to deal with when we look at what should be our tenure system. My view is that South Africa must accept that it would have a multiple tenure system, which will include title, collective ownership either on a lease hold, user fright and so on. Again, this is not peculiar to South



Africa. If you go to the United Kingdom, for instance, they have user fright rights on the Queen’s land. That tenure system is able to ensure that people can invest on that land either commercially or otherwise. It is not new and I think we shouldn’t be merry to force ourselves as country to say that the only tenure system that is available or should be available to South Africans is title.



I am saying so because leasehold – am repeating myself once again – is a tenure system that you can utilise for credit acquisition for investments of any sorts. The black South Africans in particular in this country have been on 99-year leasehold, particularly in the black townships you never owned land and you never owned that property but that never stopped them to actually invest and improve on those lands. It is not cheating, it might be your view that it must be titled but that is not the view of everybody and we must allow that debate in this country to finalise what our tenure policy should be. Thank you very much. [Applause.]






Ms M N GILLION: ... there is a caucus in front ... [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, if you can just have a bit of order there. Please, proceed.



Ms M N GILLION: Thank you Chairperson and thank you, hon Minister, for the way that you handle this question. From my side, I just need to know; has the court judgement in question made any significant contribution towards the reinterpretation of the law and land ownership and redistribution in our country? If not, how not? If so, what are the relevant details?





Chairperson, I would not be in a position since I am not a lawyer to say whether the judgement has made any contribution in terms of our legal jurisprudence. However, what that judgement has done in my view, it has actually indicated that where there is a change of policy on decisions that have been made prior and where certain commitments have been made regardless by what administration at a particular time, it cannot just be changed without looking at what commitments were made to people at that time. So, whether that offers new jurisprudence, I don’t know. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson, in displaying true team work in the DA caucus, I am pleased that hon Aucamp has covered my question. That is teamwork, Chair. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Question 149:




Thank you very much, hon member, and thanks hon Du Toit for the question you have posed. I am sure you would know that we do have legislation that prevents illegal occupation of land and property. It’s not only on land without infrastructure, it’s on any land. So, that provision is there - that legal statute is there. I would not be able to be in a position to quantify how much, you know, costs can be attached to service delivery in respect of what the hon member says has failed rural development because he or she did not provide me with what is that programme that has failed in order to enable quantification. Thank you very much.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, it is common knowledge that the country has an unprecedented high unemployment rate that is at the highest state in which the economy finds itself in. It is not conducive to the environment that is stimulating entrepreneurship and even the survival of small businesses and



farmers that are relying of safe distribution roads and the constitutional right to freedom of movement.



Furthermore, in 2015, the SA Police Service requested all municipalities in North West to apply for a pre-approved interdict for the removal of trespasses on land where they are not supposed to be, but none of these municipalities reacted. Isn’t true Minister that since the majority of these municipalities are governed by the ANC and none of them acted before hand that they might be complicit by implication to contributing to job losses and insecurity as a results of service delivery protests that occur and protests that occur as a result of people occupying land, they need to be removed and then resulting in protest action closing access roads in those areas?





Thank you, hon member. I was trying to follow the question. I think the preamble to the question talks about an issue that all of us as South Africans are concerned about, the issue of unemployment; the issue of the slow economic activity in our country, which all of us must be concerned about.



With regards to the decision that was made in the North West about what municipalities must do and whether they did or did not do, I am hearing from the hon member. I cannot vouch for that. But I don’t think it would be correct to say, you know, by not doing certain things which unfortunately I can’t even verify, therefore, there was complicity. If you look at the original question, it was asking whether government has measures to deal with, you know, illegal invasion of land without infrastructure.



The second question was whether or not, you know, government can quantify the cost of service delivery protests as a result of failed rural development. I think I have answered that question because the hon member, who raised the question, did not indicate to me what those failed rural development programmes are since 2017 linked to service delivery protests so that we can be able to answer.



Actually, if you look at that question, there were two questions in one, but I was generous enough to answer. To you hon member, I would actually say it’s because of complicity of anybody. Land invasion is a challenge that we must address. Where constituencies are raising serious challenges about issues as members of the community, those must be addressed. But all of us, I think are concerns that where some of this service delivery protests happened, they become violent



and therefore impact even on the infrastructure that all of us need. This is one thing that as a country, we cannot applaud. That we can agree on.



But on the blame about who hasn’t done what, no, I cannot comment on that. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, the community-led programmes of land repossession across the country is products of the failure or delay of the government to transfer land back to the rightful owners. What you out to be doing as government is to support this community-led struggles and put in services on land that has been occupied. If the expropriation of land without compensation constitutional amendment fails to deliver land back to the people, what measures do you have in place to support the inevitable occupation of land by the dispossessed owners? Thank you.





member, thank you. You have a new question. You are actually saying there is a programme of land repossession. I don’t know which one is that, which makes people not to follow legal processes that have been put in place and allow them to invade land. I don’t think that would be an acceptable process, nor can they be justified or blessed



if I were to call it that way. However, where people have land needs, there are processes on how those must be followed and the government will address. Where there are weaknesses, as long as the High Level Panel had identified weaknesses in our programmes and system, that’s what the government has to and we are addressing.

Thank you very much.



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, part of the problem with illegal occupation lies with politicians that try to score cheap political points and buy votes. [Interjections. One of these acts are reckless relocation of landless people into land with no municipal services available as was done by your Deputy Minister, Skwatsha, here in the Western Cape. Do you condone his reckless behaviour?





think hon member maybe through you Chair, and through the Select Committee Chairperson on Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. Then maybe, we should have a debate on the issue of landlessness in South Africa, the issues of evictions and issues of land invasion.



If you look at what happened in the incident you are mentioning in the Western Cape, it was as a result of farm evictions. It was an instance where people for a weekend, particularly children and the elderly were on the side of the road. As the government, we had to intervene. When we approach our provincial offices to see where these people can be put, there was land that identified and that’s where people were put temporarily until we find a mechanism.



We have been working with the department here in the Western Cape; we have been working with the province, Social Development, including the municipal area concerned to find a lasting solution to this issue. I want to say the challenge of land eviction in our country is a problem that we all must address. How do we ensure that we manage disputes in a manner that does not render others landless, how do we assist those people with secure tenure system, whose livelihood have actually be working on farms for many years, it’s a matter in my view that we must address, emotions aside, because it’s a challenge.



Unfortunately, the height of land evictions in this country is in the Western Cape. We must face it. [Interjections.] Maybe, let’s understand what the problem is so that we look at it and address the



problems as I agree with you, without scoring cheap political points. [Interjections.] Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M NHANHA: Thank you, hon Chair. Minister, what is your response to farmers on that occupied land reform farms, and that sits with illegal occupiers on that land, but cannot get a court order to evict them?



AN HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.]





member ...



AN HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your point of order?



Mr C F B SMIT: Yes, I am just waiting for my microphone. Hon Chairperson, the hon member from the EFF shouted here that the hon Nhanha is being used and he is a coco head. [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, have you said that hon Nhanha is a coconut? [Interjections.] Did you say that?



[Interjections.] Okay, we will check Hansard and we will come back and make a ruling. [Interjections.] Lets avoid ...



Mr M NHANHA: Point of order, Chair.






Mr M NHANHA: I accept your ruling, Chair. But just for the record Chair, some of these members from the EFF must know that we were in the struggle long before they were. So, I am not a coconut, they must know. [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s not a point of order. Hon members, lets proceed, please.





Thank you very much, hon member. The member has asked a very general question, but also made such an observation which I cannot prove.

Maybe, he can give us relevant information. I am not sure that when people apply for a court order for eviction, they have not been able to get any response from the justice system. It may either be given or not given. So, if there are certain cases that he knows that he



can make available to us, I will appreciate that and share it with my colleague, the Minister of Justice. Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nhanha, we are done with you.



Mr M NHANHA: We will do so, Chair.






Question 166:






KWASEMAKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu, ngibonge futsi kuMalunga lahloniphekile ikakhulukati Umnu Nyambi. Ngiyabonga ngalombuto losibute wona, wena Wekunene ngitsi ke asengisho kutsi kute kwanyalo luhla hulumende lanalo, lekutsi laba bekuhamba sibati kutsi bobani labanemihlaba kulelive lakitsi. Loko kwentiwa ke kutsi njenganyalo umtsetfo lomayelana nekubhaliswa kwekutsi ngubani lophetse umhlaba pheceleti ngesilungu [Deeds Registries Act of 1937], ayisho kutsi uma bantfu batewubhalisela kutsi lendlu yami uma kwentiwa indzawo yekuhlala, abatichaze kutsi bangene nini bakuphi bona. Loko ke kwenta kutsi singabi naloluhla lesingakwati kutsi sitsi kulo, lona ngewekuhamba lophetse lomhlaba lona nalona, noma umtsetfo logunyata



kuphatsa indzawo yalomunye nome lenkampani lelana yekuhamba njalonjalo.



Ase ngisho ke wena Lunga lelihloniphekile kutsi njengenyalo siyasenta lesichibiyelo kulomtsetfo kute sitekwati kutsi umuntfu nanome ngabe ngumuphi, ngewalapha ekhaya noma wekuhamba atisho, loko lesikubita pheceleti [disclosure], kudzalula keje ke sitawutsi uma senta leso sichibiyelo, sibuka siba sisebentisana neNdvuna Yetekulungiswa Nekucindziswa Kwetimilo kutsi ngabe asimoshi na, umtsetfo welive, Umtsetfosisekelo. Ngingasho ke babe kutsi mayelane naloko, lombuto lowubute kwesibili, impele ke kusho kutsi uyawa nje ngoba sengiwuphendvulile lona wekucala. Ngiyabonga





Sihla weNdlu: Ikomiti (Mr A J NYAMBI): Ngibonge Indvuna yeLitiko ngemphendvulo yakho lengumhlahlandlela. Mhlawumbe, umbuto wami lenginawo kutsi; lokuchibiyela kwalowo mtsetfo lotawukhona kutsi uyise live laseNingizimu Afrika phambili, utawutsatsa sikhatsi lesingakanani ngobe uyabona kutsi kuleNdlu uma sikhuluma ngendzaba yemhlaba, kuyabonakala kutsi kunguloku labatiko umhlaba walaba labasishiya labaningi kakhulu, labalidlanzana labaphilako namuhla nalabaningi kakhulu labasatawutalwa, ngakoke ingabe lesikhatsi ngulesingakanani kute singuleNdlu sitewukhona kutsi sikubuke



sikulandzelele kutsi impela kuyenteka kutsi kuchitjiyelwe lomtsetfo lotawulungisa lenkinga lesibukene nayo njengeNingizimu Afrika.

Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.





Thank you very much hon Nyambi. I am going to answer you in English because I am not sure that the translation would capture it correctly. It is our hope that by 2020 we would be able to conclude on this legislation. I must indicate that the deeds amendment seeks to address two things. Firstly, it is the disclosure, so that we know whether you are a South African or a non-South African that has ownership of a particular land. Secondly, it is to address the recordal of rights in the former homelands.



As you know that currently, the Deeds Registry Act only records those rights of people who are living in the areas that were not part of your homeland, the so called 13% of land as a result of the Land Act of 1913. Those are some of the things that we want to do because the nonrecordal of rights is what has made communal land not to have value. We want to redress that issue through that amendment and I hope that Members of Parliament both here in the NCOP and National Assembly will support the department in the amendment of that legislation. Thank you very much.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Chair, Minister firstly when you responded to the question you said you do not have the register. We accept that but the register of the land that is owned by foreigners ... [Inaudible.] I want to start here; we must abolish the ownership of land by foreigners. We cannot allow that we as South Africans do not own lands but foreigners have got land in our country.



The second question is this hon Minister, when are you going to discontinue the ownership of land by few individuals, because the South African land must be owned by all South Africans. It is actually two questions in one; the first is about foreigners and individuals that own land.





Thank you very much hon member, I think the decision on whether or not we abolish the fact that individuals must own land is not a decision- no I am starting with the second one. It is not the decision of an individual Minister. It would have to be the legislature that will have to decide in terms of law. You are in a better position as you are sitting in the ad hoc committee that is looking at the amendment of Section 25, you can propose that amendment. Section 25 allows everyone of us to actually a right in ownership of land as being one asset and property.



If you seek to change that dispensation, you will have to do it through the amendment of the Constitution. I think you can convince your colleagues who are part to that committee as well as the two Houses to understand your position as why you the ownership must be in the hands of the state. That is the answer; I cannot give you a timeline because that is not dependant on me.



Secondly, abolishing the ownership of land by foreigners, again it can never be the decision of a Minister. It would be a decision of the legislature, so you can propose that as the EFF you actually think that this should be the dispensation that is followed and convince other parties as well to see whether or not they would agree with you and if there is a need of a legislation that should be done. Thank you very much.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, hon Minister as South Africa we are desperately looking for foreign investment for growth. How will the contradicting policy of the ANC as it was specifically said by your predecessor that foreign nationals should have lease only in South Africa, encourage foreign investment in the current unemployment crisis which we saw today is at 29,1%?





member, I have just answered the question even though I was not answering you about our view on the treatment of land ownership by foreign nationals, I have answered that. I am saying it will depend on this Parliament what they would want to do. You say my predecessor made a proposal to the effect that foreign nationals must only have a lease hold. That is not in law, it was a proposal and that is not in policy, it was a proposal. For anything to have an effect, it would have to be policy supported by legislation.

Until such is done, there is nothing. In my own view, there is no policy contradiction as we speak here today on that matter and I do not think foreign investors at the do not find South Africa’s dispensation for foreign investment adverse in any way. Thank you very much.



Mr M NHANHA: Thank you hon Chair, Minister...





... inxalenye yalo mbuzo sele uwuphendule. Ezolimo lelinye lamashishini elidala amathuba emisebenzi nengqesho kweli lizwe. Xa abatyali zimali bangaphandle sizakubaqeshisela umhlaba, hayi ubunini bomhlaba, uthi ngubani ozakufaka imali yakhe kuloo meko? Amathuba emisebenzi azakuba phi ke wona? Enkosi Sihlalo.





LWAMAPHANDLE: Lungu elihloniphekileyo, umntakwenu ugqiba ukundibuza lo mbuzo ngqo, ndamphendula. Mandikuphendule ke ngesiXhosa sam ndithi: Akukho mthetho okwangoku kungekho kwankqubo ethi abemi bamangaphandle bazakuba nezivumelwano zokuqesha umhlaba hayi ubunini ukuze batyale imali, akukho nto injalo. Umntu ofuna ukutyala imali emhlabeni uyayenza loo nto. Lo mbuzo ke mntakwethu ndiyathemba ukuba sivene ngawo. Ukuba nifuna ukwenza isihlomelo sokuba kubekho umthetho othetha ngqo ngabantu abangengabo abemi beli lizwe mayelana nobunini bomhlaba, loo nto izakwenziwa nini nilelibhunga laMaphondo leSizwe. Enkosi lungu elihloniphekileyo.



Question 155:






NEZINGUQUKO ZOMHLABA: Ngiyabonga Mphathi sihlalo ngibonge nakulungu elihloniphekile uMnumzane Mfayela ukuthi ngabe yini uhlelo uMnyango onalo uma ngiwubambe kahle lo mbuzo ukwenza ukuthi sibhekane nalenkinga yokuguquguquka kwesimo sezulu okuba nomthelela omkhulu ikakhulukazi komama abasemakhaya kanye nakusizinda kumbe indlela isimo somhlaba esime ngayo kanye nakwezolimo.



Ngingasho ke lungu elihloniphekile ngihleli eduze kukazakwethu ophethe uMnyango Wezemvelo ukuthi siyabhekana namaqhinga amaningi ukuthi sizawubhekana kanjani nalenkinga esikuyo. Sibonile lapha eKapa ukuthi manje kungajwayelekile sebenezimvula ezifika ehlobo. Uma ubheka ezindaweni la izimvula khona kufanele zibe khona ehlobo sekuba nesomiso esingajwayelekile neziphepho njalonjalo.



Ezinye zezinto esizenzayo ukuthi sibheke ukuthi ingabe amanzi ikakhulukazi emithonjeni siwavikela kanjani siwagcine. Sibheke futhi nanokuthi yiziphi izitshalo ezifanele nalesi simo esikuso. Ngamanye amazwi kusho ukuthi ukuhlengahlengiswa kokulima sekuzofuneka sibheka ukushintsha kwesimo sezulu okuzokwenza kube nokushintsha kwezindawo nezinto esingazitshala kulezo zindawo. Ngingenza nje umzekelo ukuthi uma sibheka namhlanje ikakhulukazi la endaweni yaseNtshonalanga Kapa ezinye zezitshalo ezifana namagilebhisi ngokuya ngokuhamba kwesikhathi zingabe zingasamili ngendlela ebesiyijwayele ngaphandle kokuba senze ubuchwepheshe nobuncwaningo obuzothi singalungisa kanjani izinhlobo ezizokwenza ukuthi bakwazi kutshala lezo zitshalo.



Kanti futhi uma ubheka ezinte izindawo ezifana njengasoKhahlamba laphaya eMangwaneni ezinye zezindawo manje ongatshala khona amagilebhisi okwakungesiyona indawo yokutshala ngaphambili.

Ziningana izindlela esizibhekayo zokuthi zilekelele abantu bakithi



ukuthi babhekane nalesi simo. Okunye okuyokubaluleka ukuthi nathi thina maLungu ePhalamende sikhulume emiphakathini ngokubayala abantu ukuthi lesi simo sokushintsha kwezulu phecelezi climate change akusiwo amamphunge, kuyiyo ngempela into eyenzekayo njengoba sesibonile nje. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]



Mnu S E MFAYELA: Sihlalo ngiyathokoza ukuthola leli thuba, Nqongqoshe ngiyatthokoza ukuthi utshengise ukuthi umthetho wakho uphuma khona ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Ikapa lingakuthatha nje kodwa ungowasemakhaya wena ngiyakubona. Ngiyafisa Ngqongqoshe ukuba ngiqhubeke ngithi lezi zinhlelo okhuluma ngazo zibukeka zizinhle futhi zingabasiza abantu basemakhaya. Kodwa manje uvalo nje olukubantu bonke abasemakhaya ukuthi lezinhlelo uma siza lezi okhuluma ngazo bagcina bengakwazanga ukuzuza kuzona ngenxa yokuthi inkohlakalo idla lubi. Ngiyafisa ukuzwa kuwena Ngqongqoshe ukuthi usukhulumile ngazo lezinhlelo unahlelo luni lokuvimba ukuthi isaka lingadliwa amagundane uma usuyisa lezinhle emakhaya?





NEZINGUQUKO ZOMHLABA: Ngibonge kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile ukuze phela isaka lingadliwa amagundane kuyofuneka ukuthi nani nibe yizinhloli, nibe ngamehlo futhi nibe ngamadlebe kahulumeni ukuthi uma niwabona amagundane shonini ukuthi nali ibuzi, nali igundane



elincane, nali selingena ukuze nami ngingafuniseli nje. Ngazi ukuthi likhuphi lona leligundane elingenayo. Kodwa ke mangisho ukuthi ezinye zalezi zinhlelo ngempela azidingi imali kudingeka ulwazi.

Uyabona njengasezindaweni zasemakhaya uma ngingabalula laphaya ngasendaweni yalapho mina nawe siphuma khona lunga elihloniphekile, uma indawo ibitshalwe amadumbe ngaphambili ngokushintsha kwalesi simo kubonakale ukuthi manje sesingatshala umjumbulo. Yizona zinto ekufuneka sibasize abantu babone ukuthi cha, sisengaqhubeka nokutshala la kodwa asisezukutshala loku ngoba akusamili.



Uma sithatha ke sibheka indawo kashukela lapha eMount Edgecombe ...





Mount Edgecombe used to be one of those plantations of the sugar association but because of the acid nature of the soil, they had to convert to property development not because they just wanted to change from agriculture. It was after thorough assessment that that land can never be utilised again for agricultural development.



So, there are many factors that sometimes makes decision-making to be appropriate when people are given proper information. For me, what is important is also to use the language that people understand.





Awukwazi ukufika komama balaphaya eMthonjeni uzokhuluma nabo ngokuthi amadumbe asisezukuwatshala la, ufike ukukhulume ngolukaGeorge uthi ...





... you see, you cannot do this ...





...batakuvelaphi bangakayi esikolweni. Kutawufuneka ukhulume nje ngalendlela labatayiva, bayati futsi kutsi umjumbula utjalwa kanjani, atawubabonisa uma bangati kutsi utjala ushone kangaka, mhlawumbe usebentise lomunwe losekhatsi nome lomunwe wekukhomba kutsi imbewu yakho ikwati kukhula kahle. Kuya ngekutsi emalunga, tisebenti tahulumende sitisebentisa kanjani kutsi tati uma tisebenta nebantfu kufanele abacatfutise, atsatsa loko labakwatiko akukhulise.Angitsatse njengembuti nje, imbuti kute umuti ebantfwini labamphisholo emakhaya lote imbuti, keje abayati labanyenti kutsi imbuti iyimali, bati nje kutsi hawu uma siyokwenta umsebenti, siyawuhlaba imbuti, uma sifuna kukhuluma nalabadzala sibeka imbuti lapha siyente idatha yekuchumana nalabangasekho, keje uma umfundzisa umuntfu utsi uyabona uma uyikhulisa lembuti yakho, uyiphatsa kahle lembuti yakho ingabi, uyati nemazenze ibe kahle boya bayo ubugadze,



ungayenta imali la. Ngeke ken je utfole R1000 wekutsengisa, keje ungatsengisa boya utfole imali lengaka. Sikhumba sayo uma sewuyihlabile, usilungise, utfunge ticatfulo labo shuba du bebentfwana, wente imicamelo njalo ...abone umuntfu kutsi hhabe yenabakitsi ikhona lemali! Noma nje ungasekwentanga loko, utse nje uyabona lembuti yakho bayayifuna le eKhatsi Nemphumalanga ngoba bayitsandza kabi lembuti. Singakulungisela singuHulumende, sibuke kutsi ayitifo ukwati kuyitfumela eKhatsi Nemphumalanga, kulo R1000 sewutfola R5000. Bangaki ke bantfu labangeke bakhulise timbuti, banyenti ngoba sebayati manje kutsi lembuti le inelinani lelikhulu.





So, it is how we communicate as extension officers with our people so that they can change their farming patterns if they are given adequate knowledge on climate change. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank very much hon Chairperson, hon Minister; you have rightly said that climate change affects everyone, including our agricultural sector. One of the consequences of this is drought.



My constituency is in the western Free State, which has experienced one of the worst droughts in many years. This past weekend, one



farmer, a 58-year-old Mr Viljoen, committed suicide because of the state of his finances and the consequences of the drought in that area; it is believed. There are other farmers who are also emotionally not in a very good space. They go to the banks for loans and they get told that they can’t be given any loans because of the uncertainty that the whole issue around section 25 has created. They currently in many places rely on private help. Charity and goodwill can only go so far.



Premier Ntombela was there just before the elections and consulted with them and made some undertakings but we haven’t seen anything resulting from that.



So, what I would like to know, hon Minister, is that there is some help in other provinces that was given but in this specific area we haven’t seen any help going to the farmers. Will you please make an undertaking to help them urgently in any way that you can and in what way would that be? Thank you very much.





Thank you very much hon member, the question that you are asking is new. It links with another question that I am sure will come on the Order Paper relating to drought assistance. Maybe, one of the things



that we must appreciate as a country is that we are in an arid zone and therefore, the way in which we undertake our farming systems should factor that into our planning and operation. This is part of the work ... as I indicated earlier, working with my colleague, hon Barbara Creecy ... to look at how we can be climate smart with regards to our agriculture and also look at different adaption mechanisms.



We also are going to look at various options working with our Agricultural Research Council, ARC, and others to look at how we ensure that our agriculture takes into consideration the reality of climate change.



You would know that as a Department of Agriculture Land Reform and Rural Development both nationally and provincially, the function of disaster management lies with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Various municipalities as well as provinces do have some limited assistance on disaster management. Nationally as well, there are particular procedures that have to be followed on the declaration of the disaster but there are other mechanisms in my view that we could look at into the future as to how we can ensure that we have insurance products for agriculture that would ameliorate the problems, as we do when we put aside money



for insurance for our cars and property so that on rainy days when we have challenges, we claim for them.



With respect to the specific matter of the western Free State that you have indicated, I hope that we will be able to talk to the MEC for Agriculture in the province to better understand what it is that they are doing and you can assist me with the name of the district which I can forward to my MEC so that she can visit and work with the farmers on how they can be assisted going forward. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you hon Chairperson, our country is in the midst of a massive drought and climate change is having a huge impact. How is it possible that the department has underspent with a R100 million on the budget for forestry and natural resources? This amount was budgeted for drought relief.





member, I may not be able to answer your question specifically because I am not even sure whether that allocation you are referring to was for drought relief and whether if it was for drought relief, it wasn’t for farmers who are in the forestry industry. So, I would



have to investigate. I wouldn’t be able to give you the answer in that regard. Thank you.



Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you Chairperson, Minister, is there any integrated government strategy to mitigate the effect of natural disaster drought and storms to productive farming? If not, why? If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you, Chair.





Ndongeni, thank you very much. It goes back to the issue that I answered hon Mfayela on to say that we have been working on different approaches that we could put in place to respond to the climate issue in particular, which will cover issues of drought as well as the floods. I indicated that we are working with the Ministry of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries because as you know, in the past, each department would have particular interventions.

The way in which the current administration seeks to work is in a co-ordinated way because the issue of drought as well as floods or any form of natural disasters doesn’t only have a bearing on agriculture but runs across. There might be specific interventions on agriculture so as in other sectors but it is important that when we look at our adaptation strategy, we do it in an integrated form. Thank you very much.



Question 147:




Chairperson, the question by hon Aucamp relates specifically on the matter of the Northern Cape. One cannot be able to quantify and indicate in the coming three years how much resources will be spent by government to deal with the issue of drought relief.



However, the department continues to provide the farming communities in the Northern Cape, those who are affected by drought, with risk reduction support including early warning information to mitigate the impacts of natural hazards and including drought.



We must also indicate that we have given drought assistance to the amount of R30 million as it was announced by the Deputy President and together with the province and the farming community agreed on the method in which such assistance will be given, particularly on issues of FODA for the animals.



So, in respect of that, one of the things we have done is to make available few farms and use those as foda banks so that we can produce foda, particularly in those areas closer to the Orange River where we can irrigate in order to assist farmers with the feat.



B, the question related to when will the Northern Cape be declared a disaster area? Again, this is a matter that is the competence of the Department Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA. What we have done as the national department working with the province have been to give the necessary information on the assessment that we have done particularly in the five districts that have been affected by drought. And we have given that information to the relevant department and we are hopeful that sooner we will get an indication of whether or not the province, particularly the five districts, will be declared as disaster. Thank you very much, hon member.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Minister, with all due respect, the R30 million that was provided to the farmers in the Northern Cape is the small portion of the R640 million that your department said is required.

Your department is like an ambulance arriving at the accident scene seven days after the accident occurred. It is too late, it’s too little. My question to you, hon Minister, is: Since your government has taken too long to react to this drought, breading herds in ... not only the Northern Cape but several other provinces, breading herds have been depleted. Those are herds that it has taken a long time to build up those herds. Due to this drought, those herds have now been depleted, grazing has been trampled to such an extend that



it will take much longer than in the past for those grazing to recover. What I’m asking is, we are all aware of the effects that global climate change have and that we are a water scarce country, what will your department do to ensure in future you have a faster response time to disasters such as this drought and other disasters in order to mitigate them for our farmers? Our farmers - who by the way - are the foundation of food security in this country. Thank you, Minister.





Aucamp, I must say that I applaud and appreciate hon Groenewald who is in the NA; his attitude in addressing this matter was very positive. He actually appreciated that government doesn’t have all the resources to assist in this regard. He invited the Deputy President and myself, visited the Northern Cape, met with the farmers, indicated to the farmers what government was doing and the commitment that government was going to put.



You are correct, the analysis of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development in terms of what would be required to mitigate the problems that the farmers in the five districts are facing, was indeed R500 million. But what we could give from the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development not



disaster management, which is the function of CoGTA, was


R30 million, which had actually been made upfront. And farmers, contrary to the way in which you are responding, were very positive; and they appreciated, they even advised us what would be the better mechanism to deliver foda utilising that resource.



Farmers in the Northern Cape themselves, offered to government that they would work with small holder farmers if government were to provide land where they can plant foda that would continuously assist.



So, the attitude of farmers on the ground is very different than the way in which you are portraying government’s intervention. They actually appreciated it.



If government was like an ambulance that comes later, surely that R30 million would not have been expanded. And remember that this is the sixth year in the Northern Cape that they have been experiencing drought. From year one the government has been giving resources to assist in the Northern Cape.



You can shake your head, good. It may not be enough but remember what I said, going forward, firstly, we need to ensure that in terms



of the strategies to respond to the drought, region in which we belong as the country would require different farming system that we must employ. Secondly, farmers, themselves, must provide to actually mitigate when there are challenges like any of you and me included to do in terms of your car insurance and other insurances. And that is the issue that also our financial institutions must be alive to that financial services including insurance for agriculture should actually be considered not as an incidental issue but as a norm.



And I think we must appreciate what currently the government has been doing and it’s important to remember that as opposed to the past, you’ve got many farmers that this government must support. You’ve also got many other areas of need which this government must respond to.



I mean some of the earlier questions that have been asked in this House does indicate the many needs of resources from government that must be expanded to. So, I don’t really think, at times when we deal with issues like this, we must take the posture that we do because we are dealing with a natural disaster that has really hurt ... serious negatives, consequences, some of the farmers have taken their own lives because they couldn’t cope. So, I don’t think it



could be a matter of politicking in the manner in which we deal with it. And we must be appreciative of what is being done.



Hon Aucamp, thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Minister, as you just said that there is not enough funds available. But then, your government is bailing out state-owned entities, SOEs, such as Eskom, SA Express and the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, from the contingency reserve fund, which is there available for unforeseen circumstances. Now, these SOEs are in the position that they are because of mismanagement. Why are we not spending this on the farmers and making sure that we support them because that is not their own making?



Your government claims that we need these SOEs to remain afloat. Let me tell you something, Minister, we also need our farmers. Why has no money been allocated to farmers from the contingency reserve?

Thank you.





Thank you, hon member. And I’m sure this government is your government too. You may not be in the ruling party, but once a government is elected is a government for all of us.



And I don’t think, seated here, the comparisons that are being made are actually justifiable. And it is not true to say government is not looking at supporting the farmers, because it does. [Interjections.] Well I appreciate it not enough and I said so myself, and government will never have enough when there are fewer tax payers than the needs of the country. Those are the balances we have to make. And I’m sure CoGTA, when it approaches the Ministry of Finance on these matters of drought; surely it will look at whatever resources that are there to support.



The R30 million intervention was to immediately respond while all other processes are undertaken. It doesn’t mean that’s the end and be all. And I think it’s important for us to really appreciate what is being done; and I would again repeat, farmers of this country are producers that we all need. And in all their permutations none of us own them, but collectively, these are the producers of this of this country who ensures our household for security, who ensures our national food security, who ensures that they can contribute to the economy through trade.



So, as the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, that is why I took my time to go to Namaqualand, that is why I’ve been to various areas of our country where farmers are



to engage with them, that is why I’ve been to farmers meetings to explore what it is that we need to do to deal with the matters that affect farmers, small, big and medium; because all of those, they may be smaller at one hectare, they produce for their families so that they cannot be hungry.



And I think the way in which we need to look at how we approach that constituency; we shouldn’t make it sectarian as though it’s a them and us who care about them fully. Thank you. [Applause.]





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Op ’n punt van orde. [Onhoorbaar.] ... was voor die lid se hand op. Daar was net ... [Tussenwerpsels.] Voorsitter, u kan vir die Tafel vra. Vra vir die Tafelpersoneel daar. My hand was voor almal se hande op.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please sit, hon member.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Wat is die rede hoekom u my ondermyn? My hand was voor sy hand op en voor die ander se hande.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please sit. It’s not a point of order. And I think there’s something you are missing as well.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Dit is ’n punt van orde, Voorsitter. Dit is onregverdig.





The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You were noted but you are not the person to speak now.



Mr A ARNOLDS: [Inaudible.] ... not noted. It’s unfair, Chairperson.



Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, the member of the EFF rose on a point of order and you keep on ignoring his point. We’ve made certain observations, even previously, that when you are sitting on that chair and presiding over this House, you tend to ignore all four corners of this House and it’s extremely unfair. The member of the EFF raised the hand before the member of the DA. So, we don’t know what criteria are you using. If we raise first why can’t you recognise us?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In fact, I can correct you, hon member by simply stating the following: that the hands that short up on my left, right at the back there, were not two but three, hon member. The member there and the two who are now standing.



Please sit, hon member.



Mr E J NJANDU: Hon Minister, my question is: What has been the audit outcomes of the funds distributed for drought relief over the last three financial years? And what risk mitigation measures are there to ensure that funds are not directed to purposes they are not intended for?





member, that’s a new question. It is a new question, hon member, I appreciate it. If you don’t mind you can’t put it on a written form and I will look at the audit outcomes and give you the necessary response that you want. Thank you.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Minister, can you make use of the translation services? I’m going to ask in Afrikaans.






Minister, ek dink dat u met die EVV sal saamstem dat die aangehoue droogte situasie wat ons in die land het, het ’n langtermyn strategie nodig om basies met die droogte te handel. Ons weet natuurlik dat die droogte ’n negatiewe impak op produksie, op die ekonomie en dan ook op werkskepping het. Onlangs het die Departement van Waterwese juis ’n verslag uitgebring en ondersoek ingestel, en gevind dat in 12 maande se tyd is daar ’n afname in ons damme van omtrent 10% van water wat verdywn, en dit benodig ’n omdraaistrategie.



My vraag aan u is soos volg. Is u as die Minister, in samewerking met die Minister van Waterwese, in interaksie met mekaar om seker te maak dat daar proaktiewe maatreëls in plek is om seker te maak dat ons op die langtermyn nie opeindig soos wat ons amper hier in Kaapstad en in die Weskaap opgeëindig het nie; waar daar ’n droogtetyd was en waar daar gesê was ... day zero. Dat ons nie so ’n dag het nie. Is u en die Minister in interaksie om seker te maak dat daardie plan uitgevoer word? Baie, baie dankie.







Thank you hon member Arnold. You know it’s a new question but I will answer it. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Yes. You have put it through



the window. But indeed, the Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation is working together with myself and other Minister on that water master plan, which seeks to look at the situation currently that we have as a country but also in the long term in the future and what strategies need to be developed. That would also require particular irrigation systems that as the agricultural sector must put in place. It would also ensure that we can look at drought resistant crops in certain instances. So, we are working together. As you that apart from water from our own resources in the country, we also get water from our neighbouring countries such as Lesotho. So, it’s important how we work on conservation of water strategies to prepare for the future. So, indeed, we are working together. Thank you very much.



Question 163:




much, hon Chair and hon members, the overall spent on procurement to black-owned companies by the department is 74% and amounts to approximately R415 million, 29% is spent on women and youth-owned companies and it amounts to R121 million. The department has also initiated workshops with small enterprises on a by-annual basis that specifically target, black, women and youth with the object of



encouraging the registration as prospective suppliers and service providers to the department.



From a job creation perspective the department has implemented a number of empowerment initiatives that support women and youth from previously disadvantaged communities. The recycling support programme which awards grants to waste management and recycling, small, medium and micro-enterprises, smmes, primarily owned by youth and women has generated the following spend over the period of

R400 million or 14% going to women –owned enterprise, 11% or R3,4 million going to youth-owned enterprises.



Further, the recycling enterprise support programme is supported through an Expanded Public Works Programmes, EPWP, and has created a total of 28 000 Public Works opportunities, of this 14 000 or 52% go to women and 20 000 or 70% of the opportunities go to youth. The department continues to expand the EPWP to ensure the designated groups and that will include women, youth and people with disabilities are prioritised. As part of the biodiversity economy programme a total of 540 youth are receiving accredited training in game meat processing through a partnership between the department and Shoprite checkers and through the environment learnership programme, the department recruits 100 youth every year from



universities. These students are then placed and work-integrated learning and they are also allocated mentors and coaches who make sure that the year is fruitful and supportive of them. Thank you very much.



Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Chair, thank you very much Minister for your detailed answer. Minister, as we know that Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries sector is one of the most untransformed sectors. What progress has the department made in terms of ensuring that these historical legacies are transformed and further ensure the benefits derived in these sectors are enjoyed by all? Thank you so much, Chair.





new question, but I can answer you, hon member. In fisheries, we are currently in the process of allocating 15-year fishing rights to

10 000 small fisher persons who are organised in co-operative societies along all of our coastal communities. I began the programme two weeks ago in the Ugu District in KwaZulu-Natal. In the month of November, we will be dealing with fishing rights of small communities in the Eastern Cape and we hope, in December to be addressing the same issues in the Western Cape. Obviously, many of



these small fisher persons are women and they would also be young people who would be involved in these programmes.



With regard to forestry, this is an area that we are currently working on. We believe that there are opportunities to hand out land to historically disadvantaged communities in the forestry sector. We also see that there are opportunities to have partnerships with the major forestry companies that would further beneficiate women, youth and other people from historically disadvantaged communities. Thank you.





Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. Holobye, hi ku ya hi nhlamulo ya n’wina ndzi twa yi nga khumbi helo ku hlohletela vamanana na vantshwa va le makaya. Ndzi lava ku tiva leswaku eka ndzawulo ya n’wina, xana hi tihi ti phurogireme leti mi ti endlaka ku hlohletela vamanana na vantshwa lava kumekaka emakaya leswaku va kota ku teka xiave eka phurogireme leyi. Ndza khensa.





much, hon member for the question. Most of the programmes that we have under working for water and working on fire are programmes that specifically target women and youth. Again, they are poverty



alleviation initiatives, but they are also programmes in those rural areas that would include the recycling initiatives that I spoke about earlier, as well as other initiatives to these initiatives that I was speaking about in the forestry sector will primarily be targeted at women, youth and other people from historically disadvantaged communities in rural areas.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, why is it wonderful that these many women and youth as you described to us benefited from procurement in your department and that you intend to increase participation for these groups? Your department is struggling to solve procurement irregularities at the moment. One of the most recent investigations was launched by the Public Service Commission appointing a high profile investigating team to look into allegations of tender fraud and factional wars in their department. What steps are your department taking to eliminate procurement irregularities and can you guarantee this House that the opportunities created for women and youth are not, in fact, hampered by corruption?





much, hon member. In fact, when we presented our audit outcomes before the portfolio committee in the National Assembly I have made



an undertaken that all irregular expenditure will be investigated by Independent Forensic Auditors, and I have already issued instructions to all of the branches and also to all of our entities that need to take place. There can be absolutely no space in our department for those who would want to prevent anyone but in particular people from historically disadvantaged communities from not benefitting from the opportunities that are available.

Corruption is not a victimless crime; corruption is a crime that affects those who live under conditions of poverty the most.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. I am now in a difficulty I have a note for me that says the next speaker is supposed to be hon Mthethwa and Mthethwa is not in the House. So now, I must look for his look alike. Hon Mfayela is it you? Do you want to speak? Mthethwa is not in the House.



Question 142:




much, hon member. Yes, the department has plans to combat abalone poaching. These interventions are planned and implemented as part of the enhanced co-ordinated compliance and enforcement programme of initiative 5 of Operation Phakisa.



Integrated teams at national and provincial levels, as well as local law enforcement, are deployed under the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, Natjoints, to combat abalone poaching which is a threat in a number of coastal regions, particularly in the Western Cape.



During Phakisa initiative 5 operations in 2018-19, confiscations were made of abalone worth R21,3 million, as well as equipment worth more than five million used in illegal activities. In the fist six months of the current financial year, confiscations of abalone and equipment associated with poaching and trafficking were made to the value of R3,6 million.



The most recent deployment of the integrated Phakisa teams is to the Overberg region which began towards the end of September. As a result of these interventions, there has been a noticeable reduction in illegal harvesting activities. A number of arrests have been made, as well as confiscations of vehicles, equipment, vessels and abalone. Deployment in this area will continue in line with the proactive and reactive strategies set out in the operational plan.



With regard to Question 2, the implementation of plans aimed at combating poaching remain structured under the enhanced and co-



ordinated compliance and enforcement programme, as I explained earlier, which is an initiative of Operation Phakisa under the Natjoints.



As initiative 5 focuses on joint operations in the maritime environment with multiple role-players with different jurisdictions, the Natjoints is used to execute proactive and reactive operations, thereby acting as a force multiplier for the department’s own resources. [Applause.]



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Minister. I think you are well aware of the fact that when initiative 5 and Natjoints operations become effective in one area, crime moves on to another area. Therefore, I just want to say — and I think you know this — that research indicated that illegal abalone trade is 4,5 times more than rhino horn trade and 3,2 times more than ivory trade. An average of 2 174 tons per year over the past 17 years with an average value of R628 million a year is being poached. These devastating figures can be attributed to ongoing organised crime.



Minister, will you as the lead department or agency please undertake and support the following in our effort to address this absolute maritime crisis? Firstly, to pursue in Cabinet that abalone poaching



be recognised as a priority crime as well as categorised as an organised crime to ensure maximum sentences;



Secondly, to advocate that abalone is classified as a protected species under the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act of 2004; and



Thirdly, include abalone under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, Cites.



We as parliamentarians will do our due to contribute to the amending of these Acts if we have your support.





much, hon Labuschagne. Together with the national department of safety, we have developed a wildlife crime strategy. That strategy has not yet been brought before Cabinet. I had a meeting with Minister Bheki Cele about two weeks ago to request him — because his department is responsible — to bring that particular memorandum before Cabinet, because in that memorandum one of the species that would be identified as a priority crime species would be abalone.

You would know that at the moment rhino poaching is identified as a priority crime.



I think that one of the things that we are going to be doing is to set up a special team of experts to look at the whole issue of the abalone fishery. You would understand that if we make it a protected species and if we put it under Cites it de facto will close the fishery.



I think one of the things we’ve always got to think about is that if you don’t find legal ways for people to engage in the harvesting of abalone they might then find illegal ways of doing that, which as we know, they have already done.



Part of the reason for putting up that task team is so that they can give me overall advice as to how we are going to deal with the impact that illegal harvesting has had on the fish stocks and what measures we should be taking to ensure that there is a recovery of those fish stocks.



Ms M N GILLION: ... [Inaudible.] ... Chairperson. Hon Minister, coming from the Western Cape — also not from the DA — and also from the Overberg region where abalone poaching has become such a thing where people only look at the high level of poaching; however, in these communities small fishermen who don’t have another source of income are also doing it to put food on the table.



Now, the small-scale fishermen ... I fully agree with the high level plans of the department. However, the small-scale fishermen that don’t have anything to put on the table ... I think ... Minister, if you can maybe just tell us how the small-scale policy ... the implementation of the small-scale policy in the industry, will also assist the small-scale fishermen whose eyes were also on poaching.

How will that assist the department to, on a low level, scale down abalone poaching? Thank you.





hon Chairperson, I think that is a very important question. I explained to the hon member in a previous question that we are in the process of starting to give out 15-year rights to small-scale fisherpersons. I think what we need to understand is that these small-scale fishing people have never had legitimate legal rights and the consequence of that is that when people can’t get through the front door they are going to climb through the windows. I think that many activities which are regarded as so-called poaching can be the activities of individuals who legitimately need to feed their families and who legitimately need to be creating a livelihood for themselves. That is why over the last four months we have prioritised the sorting out of the issue of rights for small-scale



fishing people. Unless we do that, we will never solve the problem of so-called poaching in Western Cape communities.



There is a basket of species that we are putting on the table for small-scale fishing people. It includes finfish, oysters, mussels, octopus, prawns, limpets, abalone and lobster, and I think the intention is to try and give individuals a legitimate way of feeding their families. However, we are also organising these small fishing communities into co-operatives and the idea is that, through their involvement in these co-operatives, they should also be able to create a commercial livelihood for people who are members of the co- operative. Until we do that, we are never going to get a proper handle on this thing called poaching.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, Chair. Minister, I want to know if you can perhaps tell us how many officials or inspectors are being investigated or have been arrested as a result of these investigations that you have lodged ... that might have failed to act in the prevention of abalone poaching or might have been complicit in these illegal activities.





member. I don’t think it’s a secret that the branch of Fisheries



that we are inheriting as the Department of Environment has not been a well-run branch. There are several officials who are facing disciplinary charges for a range of, can I call them, illicit activities. Some of those officials are currently in disciplinary proceedings.



Where it comes to light that other officials that are supposed to be monitoring and acting as referees have in fact become players for the other team, we will take action just as we have taken action against those whom we currently have evidence against.





Mr K MOTSAMAI: Modulasetulo, ke re go Tona ...





 ... the problem of poaching must be tackled systematically where there are multinational criminals illegally exploiting our marine resources. There are also South Africans from fishing communities across the country that have been denied opportunities to make a living from marine resources. What plans do you have in place to ensure that the exploitation of our marine resources is being done in a manner that is inclusive of communities that have been deprived of fishing for generations?





much, hon member. I think, first of all, you are absolutely right. One needs to make a distinction between those aspects of poaching that involve syndicated crime ... We know that, with regard to abalone poaching, there is definitely involvement of gangs and of syndicated crime, and there are definite reports that abalone poaching is linked to the narcotics trade.



We would also agree with you, and I think this relates to the answer that I gave to hon Maurencia, that part of the reason why you have so-called poaching is because, for generations, people who live in coastal communities have been denied their legitimate right to harvest food and commercial value from the sea. That is precisely why, over the last four months, we have prioritised the giving of rights to 10 000 small fisherpersons.



As I’ve already explained, the process in KwaZulu-Natal, the Northern Cape and the Eastern Cape is well underway. In the Western Cape I have visited fishing communities throughout the province and one of the issues that they have brought to my attention is that they do not feel that the process of registering them has been fair and transparent because the percentage of people who failed to be registered is considerably higher than those who succeeded in being



registered. As a result of that we have put in an independent audit so that we can make sure that where people have been excluded from the registration process, there are good reasons and that it isn’t being done for nepotistic reasons.



However, it is our intention that those in the Western Cape who have already qualified should be given their rights in December, because what we understand is that the fishing season for these fishing people is a summer season and we would not want to delay the opportunity for them to fish in the current summer season.



Question 164:




the support to local government for waste management matters aims to respond to the following problems: one, the lack of infrastructure and equipment; two, large service backlogs; three, inadequate planning for waste services; four, poor integration of industry waste management plans in the IDPs of municipalities; five, the profile of waste management is lower than the provision of other basic services; six, bylaws are not developed; and seven, there is an absence of appropriate and audited data.



Intergovernmental structures have been set up to ensure that co- operative governance mechanisms are implemented, to support local government, in order to improve waste management for the sustainable use of resources. These intergovernmental structures cover national, provincial, local and district level and give direct support to local government, where we have placed officials in all 44 district municipalities, to support both the district and the local municipalities.



In addition to that, we have undertaken the following interventions. Firstly, we are in the process of amending the MIG policy framework and these amendments should be tabled by March 2020. This will allow a situation where money that is allocated for the MIG is also used for the provision of waste services and not just for the provision of landfills and other infrastructure.



Secondly, we are assisting municipalities to develop and review their integrated waste management plans. We are providing annual capacity-building to municipal officials and councillors on various waste topics, depending on the training needs of each municipality.



Thirdly, we have also developed model waste bylaws so that municipalities can take those model bylaws and amend them for their



own situations. We are helping them to implement the Good Green Deeds programme, which was launched by President Ramaphosa in March and the idea of the Good Green Deeds Programme is, where we have huge build-ups and backlogs in waste collection, to conduct regular clean-up campaigns.



Furthermore, municipalities have also been assisted with the licensing of 328 unlicensed landfill sites, to develop a framework for compliance, and lastly, we have developed standard designs for material recovery facilities. The idea of these material recovery facilities is that these would be the buy-back centres where we would be encouraging members of the community to bring things like glass, plastic paper, and so on. Thank you.



Ms N NDONGENI: Minister, inadequate waste services led to unpleasant living conditions and contamination of the environment. What processes are in place to address the historical backlog of waste services between urban areas and rural areas? Thank you.





think this is a very important question. What we know in our country is that, at the moment, only 65% of households have regular weekly collection of their waste. If you look at where the 35% where there



is not regular collection of waste, almost 100% of that is in rural areas. And areas such as the Eastern Cape, the far northern parts of KwaZulu-Natal, in particular, have a very extreme situation with regard to no-waste collection.



However, from the kind of work that we are doing to support municipalities, you would see, another problem is that communities have to dispose of their own waste, but there are not necessarily any licensed areas that can receive that waste. The consequence of that is the widespread dumping.



The reason that we are working with local government on amending the MIG policy is because in many instances, municipalities do not have the budget to effect regular waste services. While services such as electricity and water are subsidised through the free basic service mechanism, there is no mechanism currently to subsidise waste collection. We are working on this particular amendment because we think that it will assist municipalities that are in distress.



However, you would understand that this is an extremely complicated process, because it relates to the weaknesses of municipalities, it relates the lack of revenue streams of those municipalities and it also relates to the lack of infrastructure.



It is why we are also looking at establishing buy-back centres for waste, so that we put a monetary value to waste. If people can start to see various waste streams as income streams and revenue streams, there might be a greater willingness to return those particular waste streams that are causing major problems in the environment.

They can return plastic to the buy-back centres, so that we can divert it from other landfills or environmental degradation. Thank you.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, Minister, you have touched on the monetary value of waste and I would like to say that the current narrow approach to cost-effectiveness in waste management focuses on the monetary values of the service. However, we might need a broader approach. Considering the South African socioeconomic challenge, equity policy, the Bill of Rights, environmental costs - as you have referred to in a way - which result in significant costs and a huge impact on waste management that are not accounted for in the current financial accounting systems in most municipalities, has the department ever performed a full cost-accounting exercise for waste management and if so, what was the outcome of such a study and what would be the implications for municipal waste management, and if not, do you think it would be worthwhile to do so?





am sure you agree that it is a new question. If you give it to me in writing, I will find out for you. Where we agree with you, however, is that if, as I was saying to the previous hon member, we are serious about introducing this concept of the circular economy where every product, when it has fulfilled it current life, is the raw material for another product, instead of it being a product that is discarded, we have to introduce that concept properly and think about how we minimise waste on the one side, but on the other, we have to think about the issue of the extended producer responsibility.



So, when we look at issues such as plastic bags and tires, both of those commodities have a tax on them, which is paid by the consumer. The idea of that tax is that that tax money must be used for the life cycle of that particular product.



We can debate here whether that has been effectively done, but in my view that is really where we have to go with waste. I don’t think that we have enough space in our country for landfills with our growing population and all of the waste it will produce. We have to, on a much more serious basis, start to address the question of the circular economy and reuse of commodities. Thank you.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you very much for your responses, especially when you are dealing with the challenges that are facing municipalities around financing waste management as well as the technology thereof. One of the biggest problems is the lack of public awareness on the part of the communities, especially around the issues of sanitary improvements. Does the department have a plan with working with municipalities to attend to that particular area of public awareness? Thank you.





really important question, hon member. You would be aware that over many, many years, there have been a lot of public awareness campaigns around littering. The question that we have to ask is: Why have they not changed behaviour? One of the issues that we are currently researching as a department is whether we can do a baseline study on citizen understanding of environmental question and one of those questions would obviously be the issue of why it is that you should not through waste into the environment. We want to do that because we don’t think that it is productive to spend more money on so-called citizen awareness campaigns, unless we understand how we will measure the success – against what will we measure the success of those particular campaigns.



So, we have a lot of outreach programmes that are working in schools. We have the Good Green Deeds. We do community awareness, but immediately after you leave that community, people go back to disposing of waste in ways that we would not prefer.



So, we want to do the baseline study. Let us also look at how to disaggregate your public when we do the public-awareness campaigns, because the public is not just one amorphous mass. The reasons that people litter is not the same, particularly given the fact that you could have people that think that it is wrong to throw their rubbish on the side of the road, but they don’t have an alternative.



So, if we are going to raise citizen awareness about where you should not through your rubbish, you also have to be in a position to tell them where they can throw it. From the work that we have been doing, I don’t think we can answer that question in all municipalities. Thank you.





Mr A ARNOLDS: Minister, ons weet dat ons Grondwet, wanneer dit by die opgewing kom, die versekering aan ons burgers gee dat hulle, volgens afdeling 24 van die Grondwet en die seksie wat oor die omgewing handel, afdeling 2, die reg het tot ’n opgewing wat nie



skadelik is vir hul gesondheid nie. U het nou oor die departement se betrokkeheid by plaaslike regering se geïntegreerde afvalbestuurplan gepraat. My vraag aan u is: Daar is baie stortingsterreine wat naby informele nedersettings is, wat ’n negatiewe impak op die gemeenskap en veral die kinders het, wat is die Minister van plan om daaraan te doen? Ons weet dat afvalbestuur die plaaslike regering se mandaat is, maar wat is die Minister van plan om te doen in terme van dit, aangesien u ook ondersteuning daar bied? Dankie.





have explained that there are at least seven or eight different ways in which we support municipalities. However, if you are talking about how one must make sure that you remove the refuse that is on the outskirts of informal settlements, which I think is the fundamental objective that we want to achieve, there would be two things that we are doing.



In terms of solving the long-term problem, what I explained is that we are trying to amend the regulatory environment around the MIG so that municipalities can utilise the grant for the purchasing of refuse trucks and for the actual process of waste collection. So, that is the long-term solution that we are trying to effect.



In terms of solving the short-term problem, it is exactly those kinds of dumpsites that we would be targeting with our Good Green Deeds programme, so that we make sure that, on an ad hoc basis, we are cleaning up and removing that refuse, while we are implementing the longer-term programme. Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, before we continue, let me remind members that you only have two minutes for a follow-up question.



Question 145:




prior to this declaration of intent being signed there was no specific co-operation on environmental issues with the Kingdom of Denmark. Both parties agreed that it would be beneficial to formalise our co-operation on environmental issues given the global environmental challenges being faced currently.



The Declaration of Intent is nonbinding ant its primary objective is to provide an overarching framework for co-operation between South Africa and the Kingdom of Denmark on the following areas: The circular economy and industrial symbiosis, environmental monitoring,



compliance and enforcement, sustainable consumption and cleaner production, greening of the economy and climate change adaptation.



Furthermore, the declaration creates the opportunities for South Africa and Danish stakeholders both public and private to foster partnerships particularly in the field of the green transition sustainable development and climate change adaptation. It also creates an enabling environment to stimulate mutually beneficial exchanges of information, best practice and lessons learnt as well as joint projects and initiatives.



Furthermore, the declaration will also create an opportunity for organising technical training seminars, study groups and so on.



South Africa has already joined the Partnering for Green Growth, P4G, and the global goals 2030 initiative as part of our collaboration as part of our collaboration with the Danish government.



The P4G programme aims at addressing and advancing innovative solutions both with start up and scale up funding support options within the thematic areas inclusive of cities renewable energy,



water, food and agriculture and other areas that would be aligned to government’s programme of action.



The next phase of our discussions will focus on developing and implementing the plan for the Declaration of Intent which will identify more specific areas collaboration.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you very much for the comprehensive answer. I would like to know as you have mentioned that there would be a start up funding on green energy and projects as one of the things and it is obvious then that signing this intent that any financial assistance or co-operation will be contingent on us using it to either mitigate and or adaptation to climate change.



A huge impediment for us here in our country is the disproportion amount of power that unions like the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, will in derailing policies that are not in their interest when we trying to address this things.



Does your department intend to stand up to the unions in order to enact the needed green transitions as described in this intent?

Thank you.





know the hon Labuschagne gets her information from, but my own interaction with the union movement does not indicate to me that there is an allergy there to renewable energy.



I am sure that you are aware that my counterpart, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy has recently announced an integrated resource plan. I think we are extremely happy as the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries with that integrated resource plan because what you would know is it would increase the component of renewables to 34%.



So, I think that government’s intentions in this regard are clear. Thank you.



Mr M DANGOR: Hon Minister, your department needs to be congratulated for partnering with the Green Growth and Global Goals 2030 with the Danish government. Please inform this House of some of the other international agreements regarding this matter.





do not have with me available in this session all of our agreements, but I can tell you that we have agreements across the globe with



countries as diverse as Canada, Ruanda, Germany and Sweden. So, there are many different agreements and if you give me a written question in this regard, I will give you a full list of them, but they are many. Thank you.






Mr M I RAYI: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, I just want to find out why we are not rather have an agreement that is ratified by Parliament? Instead of having this Declaration of Intent which is not binding, why should rather have an agreement in a form of a bilateral with the Kingdom of Denmark that is binding and ratified by Parliament? Thanks.





suppose the reason is that we would want to explore the effectiveness of the partnership and the appetite from both parties. Once one is assured that this is a long-term relationship, I think that then one would be looking at formalising it a bit more. I suppose you do not really want to enter into a marriage until you know that this is somebody you want to be with for the rest of your life. [Laughter.]



Question 165:




Chairperson, with reference to the Forestry and Fisheries portfolios and the budgets which are still with the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, the transition has not yet taken place, but it is in progress in line with the national macro- organisational governance process. The national macro-organisational governance, NMOG, is a process and it is in progress and we are currently submitting the departmental structure to the Department of Public Service and Administration for approval. After the approval has been received from the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, as mentioned above, the National Treasury’s approval is needed to change the Appropriation Bill to include the new structure in the Budget process which we hope will take place in November or December 2019.



The agreed upon figures are then transferred and incorporated in the estimates of the national expenditure for 2020. Finalisation and agreement on these figures ought to take place by 24 October, which has already come and gone. The estimates of the national expenditure for 2020 are then tabled in Parliament in February 2020, and from 01 April 2020, the newly establishes department will operate including the newly transferred functions.



What is currently happening is that we have an agreement together with the Department of Agriculture that we take joint decisions on all major matters so that we are both aware of everything that is happening in the department. Thank you very much.



Ms T C MODISE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Minister, given the physical consolidation framework and poor performance of our economy, what are the departmental programmes most likely to be affected by the budget cuts or shortfalls; and how does the department intends to remedy the situation, hon Minister? Thank you.



THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a new question, but if you have any response you can grant.





new question, but I guess the answer is generic. The answer is that you have to make due within the fiscal envelop. What you have to do is to look at where the areas of underperformance in the department are, where has there been underperformance in the department historically, do we find areas where a particular branch is meeting its targets but not spending its budget, in which case, maybe it has too much. And then you are going to make adjustments amongst



branches so that you give everybody a fair chance to enable them to undertake their operations. Thank you.



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you Deputy Chair. Hon Minister...





... mane Zastron ho ile ha qalwa projeke ya ditlhapi mme e putlame, ebile moaho wa teng o fetohile lehaha la mashodu hobane ha ba fumane thuso.





I just want to know, what action will be taken against the departmental officials who misdirected the budget from what it was meant for? Thank you.





don’t have details of that particular project, but if you can give it to me I will investigate. I assume it could be an aquaculture project if it is an inland fishing project. I will be very pleased to receive those details and I will investigate. Thank you very much.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chairperson and thank you Minister. The Department of Environmental Affairs opposed some of the policy positions the fishery portfolio is about to inherit. Examples include the small scale fisheries identified in conservation priority areas such as St Lucia and the sites selected for coastal marine aquaculture development associated with Operation Phakisa in Algoa Bay and Langebaan. Minister, how do you foresee resolving these challenges when fisheries, aquaculture and all those become part your department?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Once again, Minister, let me remind you that although it seems to be in line with this question, but it is definitely new information. So, you can either respond or decide how to deal with it.





think in that we will have to sit down as a department, and we are already doing that in this process of looking at what would be the regulatory functions of the current Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. Those regulatory functions would currently be happening in the oceans and coasts branch. Then we will need to look at where would a potential conflict of interests be and we will have to look at how we manage that.



One can understand that there could be similar issues around Forestry and both these branches have historically been in this department and they were moved out. I think that if you want a chart on our approach on this I would suggest that you submit a written question because it is a matter that we would be addressing ourselves too.



Question 146:




the answer to this question but anyway, I think I’ve got it as Question 144. A number of prominent South African scientists made key contributions to the intergovernmental panel on climate change 2018 report. South Africa expressed to other parties at the 24th Conference of the Parties, Cop 24, that it welcomes the 1,5 degrees Celsius report and regards it as a valuable and timely contribution to the global effort to address climate change. The report highlights that we are currently already experiencing climate change, especially in Africa, and the global efforts to meet the Paris Agreement temperature goals are extremely important.



South Africa is considering the complex implications of this report for our National Climate Change Response Policy. President Ramaphosa, in his statement to the United Nations, UN, Secretary-



General’s Climate Action Summit on 23 September made clear our intention to revise our Nationally Determined Contributions, NDCs, to take into account the latest signs as reflected in the report. The Nationally Determined Contributions contains both adaptation and mitigation components, both of which will be updated to reflect the signs. Updating our NDCs presents an opportunity to facilitate clarity on the means of implementation, transparency and understanding of future NDCs as well as on the NDC accounting, adaptation components, and the enhanced transparency framework.



In the case of South Africa, this will be done within the context of sustainable development. The estimated period for submitting enhanced NDCs to the United Nations Framework Convention is in the third quarter of 2020 and implementation for the Nationally Determined Contributions should commence by the end of 2020. At the same time - on a national level, our Climate Change Bill would provide a national league or framework for climate action, including regular consideration of the latest signs. Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. What is your follow-up question, Labuschagne?






Agb Labuschagne, ons sal jou mos darem nie vergeet nie. Hoekom is jy dan al op jou voete?





Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Thank you Minister, you are quite right. You answered Question 144; it is referred to as a question in excess. So, something happened in the office that deals with questions - something that is not your fault or my fault because the question that is on the Order Paper here was on the prevention of pesticide pollution and other pollutants in the rivers. That was Question 146. So, there is a little bit of a mix up.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne? Are you calling order?






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You cannot address the Chair if you are calling order. Because I had to call hon Minister, so I didn’t really attend to it. What is the issue? But in any case, the Minister said that she is ready with the response. In fact, she



seems as if she didn’t respond to the question. If you allow her, she can respond now.





hon member. On 10 September 2019, the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries published regulations that phased out and banned certain persistent organic pollutants to protect human health and the environment, keeping in line with the Stockholm Convention of Persistent Organic Pollutants to which South Africa is a member. These regulations prescribe the requirements for the phase out of the used production distribution import and export as well as setting out specific time frames during which all listed substances must be completely phased out. These substances include - there is a long list here of five substances. Hon member, I think you probably have a written version and you won’t test my Greek and Latin by making me read them out. Thank you.



Mr C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you Chairperson and thank you Minister. Minister, considering the fact that these regulations have been published even before the regulations regarding certain environmental laws that prohibit the pollution of rivers were published, we are all aware of the excessively large environmental disaster that have occurred in the Dusi River. Drinking water was



made completely unusable for the local communities and cleanup efforts to mitigate the effects of this disaster are going to take years. Does your department intent to criminally charge the CEO and all companies or any other liable person who were criminally negligent allowing this disaster to occur?





this stage, I cannot answer that question. We sent officials to that area of contamination and we have been working together with officials from the province and also from the municipality. I am not in the position to tell you the exact outcome and direction of that investigation in this sitting. That is the specifics that you can write to me about, and I can answer it. But I think what is important to say is that I visited the City of Ethekwini ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members. Please, order. [Interjections.] Can there be order in this House. You may continue, Minister.





City of Ethekwini at the same time President Ramaphosa’s was visiting the district. The week before last, I took that opportunity to have a meeting with my counterparts in the province as well as



the manager of the city. We have set up a task team to look at the question of many matters relating to enforcement and also those relating to a whole range of spills that have recently occurred in that area – both in the rivers and also in the harbour. We looked at how we will co-ordinate more effectively and work together to prevent those incidents from happening in the first place and also to take better remedial action when and if they occur. Thank you.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you Deputy Chairperson. Minister we welcome the new regulations. We just want to find out why the department took so long to penalise those who were applying the pesticides and other contaminations? What will be the consequences when people have defaulted on the regulations, moving forward? Thank you.





much, hon member. I think that what is important for the hon member to understand is that the environment is a competence which is shared among national, provincial and local governments.

Particularly in the metros, the enforcement officials are at local government level. One of the reasons we have set up this particular task team in the City of Ethekwini is to understand why these offices are not carrying out their enforcement functions and to understand how we can strengthen them when they are doing that.



We have our Green Scorpions whom we send to situations like that but you would understand that as a national department we really require the municipalities to be regularly monitoring what effluent is being placed in rivers by industries which they have licensed and from whom they received money.



Obviously, in issuing those licences, they would also be taking into account the fact that they would need to be monitoring what those industries do. Part of the reason we set up that particular task team is to try and understand why this enforcement role – which is primarily a municipal role in this instance – is not happening properly and how do we strengthen it and enable it to happen properly. Thank you.



Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, Minister. Minister, I think you will be the first to acknowledge that your department and the compliance office can’t be everywhere they would like to be. The big challenge we are facing is lack of awareness of who to approach when these things go wrong. I think the public is faced with this challenge where they spot dumping in the rivers or spot something like that and they often are not aware of who to contact and where to go. Obviously, that means that some marketing needs to be done. There is also some co-operation between departments. Therefore, I would like to ask you



Minister if there is an agreement between your department and the Department of Police - which most people would see as their first line of contact for some sort of compliance - to train and make police officers aware of environmental laws and let them know who they can speak to and ensure that they are equipped in opening and investigating cases where environmental laws have been violated.

Thank you.





explaining to the previous hon member who was speaking, I don’t think that this enforcement function is primarily the responsibility of the police. Yes, there are instances where they are environmental crimes and where we would need either as the national, provincial or local government to report those crimes to the police. In this particular instance, such as the spill we were talking about, the police were on site. But I think the key is that there are enforcement officers at every level of government and those enforcement officers are not doing their work. Part of what we would need to think about and look into is to ask ourselves how the hotline system works because in each municipality there would be numbers that people would be phoning for a range of issues pertaining to municipalities but perhaps we need to look at whether there is an integrated environment hotline. Thank you very much.








... jy hoef nie te sit en vloek nie. Ek gee jou nou die beurt.



Mnr C F B SMIT: Baie dankie, agb Adjunkvoorsitter





Hon Minister, you answered the hon Ryder’s question around spills and you also said that it is basically at municipality level where enforcement is supposed to take place. My question is with regard to cases where municipalities themselves are in contravention of the National Environmental Management Act and the Water Act and so forth. Cases are opened at the police station where they don’t have knowledge of such issues. I had a similar case; I opened a case against the municipal manager of Mogalakwena Local Municipality, unfortunately it was an acting manager because they have this constant rotating of acting ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ask your question because your two minutes is about to expire. [Interjections.]



Mr C F B SMIT: ... that the police didn’t even know how to open the case. I had to make copies of the Act to give them and explain to them. They kept on coming back to me and asking me what damage to the property that I have is. The more I explained to them in terms of the Act it is a contradiction. [Interjections.] Can I be protected, Deputy Chair? [Interjections.] Can I be protected? [Interjections.] Can I be protected? Thank you. How do we ensure that municipalities are also kept accountable in the same way that industries are accountable? Thank you.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Smit. Hon Nhanha, the hon Smit doesn’t need you to defend him. Hon Minister?





much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon member, this is where the issue of the concomitant powers comes in because if a municipality is not carrying out its enforcement roles or if the municipality itself is breaching the act, then we need to be bringing in the province or we need to be bringing in national government. So, I think that you are looking at the remedy for the problem. I don’t think that it is necessarily appropriate to bring in the police. You need to be bringing in the province to look at this problem or you can report



the problem to us so that we can see what remedial action needs to be taken.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries.





Julle is saam by die Kabinetvergadering; julle kan mekaar daar ontmoet.





Thank you very much for the responses that deal with the questions that were posed particularly to you. We will now continue and welcome the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy and request that he start to respond to Question 139.



Question 139:




Smit is in two parts; Firstly, when an application for prospecting rights or mining rights is lodged, the applicant is required to simultaneously lodge an application for an environmental authorisation. Depending on the activities to be undertaken, the applicant will be required to submit either the basic assessment



report or the full scope and Environmental Impact Assessment, EIA, as per listing notices in as far as the application of environmental is concerned.



The document on applicable report shall be compiled as prescribed by EIA regulations. The decision on environmental authorisation application precedes the actual granting and subsequent issuing of prospecting or mining right. When the due process has been followed, the environmental authorisation, EA, application, the granting of the prospecting or mining right will be considered taking into account and into consideration the outcome of such application as per the criteria. Where necessary, the preinspection is also arranged. The provision of both National Environmental Management Act and EIA regulations are duly followed in this regard.



Secondly, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy works very closely with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. It is imperative to firstly indicate that the one environmental system was established to ensure that these departments can work closely in ensuring that environmental sustainability is fully considered as part of any development especially relating to mining.



To this end, as part of environmental authorisation applications, if any interested or affected party seeks to appeal, the decision made by the Department of Mineral Resources, the Minister of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is the appeal authority.



Furthermore, the departments are working closely together on a number of task teams formulated under the Interdevelopmental Project Implementation Committee. These task teams are tasked to deal with, amongst others, all aspects relating to environmental authorisation application process.



The formulation and alignment of legislation, regulations and guidelines as well as formulation of mechanism to deal with the compliance and enforcement aspects by the environmental management inspectors and environmental mineral resource inspectors; continuous meetings are held in this regard. That is the answer to Question

139. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, can you then please explain to us: How did it happen that prospecting rights were issued in the ecological, sensitive and protected Nylsvley for the Volspruit mine in Limpopo as well as prospecting rights awarded to Mazolwandle on the southern border of Marloth Park



and Lionspruit at the Kruger National Park in Mpumalanga, which is a world heritage site. How will you ensure that this is stopped now and not repeated ever again?





follow all the processes in the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy and the environmental aspects are done jointly with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. If there is unhappiness about the outcome, the Ministry of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is appeal body. Everybody has the right to appeal to the relevant Ministry.



We have never had a conflict over those appeals. If the appeal overturns the decision of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, the department does comply. In future, we will comply. There are a few cases where we were forced to comply particularly in Mpumalanga, and so we did. [Applause.]



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much Chairperson, Minister, my concern in this regard with Mazolwandle is that these mining rights were given even though this company committed plagiarism by copying verbatim an environmental impact assessment from a Limpopo coal mine. My question to you is: How is it possible that your department



was not able to detect this blatant attempt at plagiarism and what will your department in future to prevent any plagiarism happening with any other applications that will be sent through? Thank you.





the attention of the member is that we have 16 official offices countrywide that co-operate. I don’t know at what point it becomes plagiarism or sharing of information because if I am processing a particular application, there is another department in another province that is experienced, I do refer to that province for reference. If there is plagiarism and unhappiness ... as I said ... any affected party can appeal that decision. If the decision is overturned, we will comply. [Applause.]





Mnu T APLENI: Enkosi kakhulu Sekela Sihlalo. Mphathiswa ...





...does your department have the capacity and willingness to hold mining companies that flout environmental laws accountable? I am asking this because we know that mining companies are never held responsible for acid mine drainage in Mpumalanga and that mining companies have left the coast of Namaqualand damaged forever and



have done nothing to rehabilitate that landscape, “Tiger”. [Laughter.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, can you sit down and put off the mic, please? Hon Minister, you may respond.





the law has been changed to provide for the appeal system and the reason for that is that if there are shortcomings in the decision- making of a department, the other department has the authority as an appeal body to deal and overrule the other department. Capacity is something relative because you may have a number of people but the skills in those departments isn’t the same because you can’t multiply the same individual. There are many other factors that come into effect in this ... the actual human element where people are forced to do things in particular way because of pressures and corruption. These are the issues we are looking at. That is why we are appealing to society to appeal if they are not happy with a decision.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Minister, the question was about the compliance from mining companies. I just want to ask the Minister ... there are mines especially in different parts of Mpumalanga who were mined and



the miners left and there is no rehabilitation that has been done. I heard you earlier saying you are working closely with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. Some of these mines are causing very serious health hazards to the communities. What is the department doing with those mining companies that mined and left without rehabilitating the landscape? Some of them are probably no longer in the country. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Every mining company is required to put upfront provision for rehabilitation during the lifespan of a mine. Many of the mines are falling under the category of derelict and ownerless mines. About 6 000 of those mines ... last year; we rehabilitated 167 of those mines. That programme continues because the reserves for rehabilitation as accumulated during the mining life are used.



I don’t know when you say in Mpumalanga since the behaviour of mining companies is the same everywhere, whether it is in Gauteng or Mpumalanga or North West, the rules must be the same. Companies are expected to make provision for rehabilitation upfront and during the mining life.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Minister, hon Bebee, you don’t have a follow-up question on this one. Hon Mokause, can you just relax.



Ms M MOKAUSE: Your problem is that you don’t want to listen. That is your main problem.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your problem is that you speak without indicating that you are rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]



Ms M MOKAUSE: But your problem is that you are chairing yourself.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you say what your point of order is, “sisi” [sister]?



Ms M MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson. Firstly, you cannot chair yourself, you are chairing a House and you must forever recognise and listen to us; secondly ...



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is not a point of order. What is the point of order?



Ms M MOKAUSE: ... the member of the EFF rose on a follow-up question. It is extremely unacceptable for a Minister to just run over the question and downplay the question like he did. He did not answer what the EFF member asked. The member of the EFF asked: What if these mining companies are not complying? What is your department doing in relation to that?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, there is no follow-up from the hon Zandamela because he was following up on a question from another member. If he has a question, let him sent it to you as a written question and you’ll respond to it. Can you continue to respond to Question 153.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: On a point of order!



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your point of order is?



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Okay, Deputy Chairperson, you addressed hon Mokause as “sisi” in the House and it is not allowed.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause, I apologise. Can you please continue hon Minister?



Question 153:




Question 153, we have started a process as the three departments — Mineral Resources and Energy, Public Enterprises, and Trade and Industry, and competition — to engage stakeholders that are providing primary feedstock to Eskom’s power stations. We had a meeting with coal companies. We are negotiating there and saying that there must be a ceiling with regard to the price of coal that goes to Eskom, otherwise ... We have discovered that there are a number of mines that make over 100% profit, and others make 70% and 50% profit. We are saying that we must have a ceiling with regard to the price. That proposal is with the coal mining companies.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... [Inaudible.] ... the correct response?









The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: It is the commitment by various stakeholders ...











The second group that we have met are Window 1, 2 and 3 of renewable energy. To them we are saying that the prices of those are too high for Eskom. We have met twice. We are following ... with that. Only when we have completed that process will we then talk about administered prices and the possibility of reducing the electricity price, particularly for industrialisation and ... [Inaudible.] ... development.



At this point in time we haven’t seen any negativity in the reaction of the stakeholders. They have all been co-operative and they have committed ... to the process, but the process is not completed.



Mr S F DU TOIT: I think the Minister might have the questions and answers mixed up. He answered on Question 150 instead of on Question 153.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Du Toit, I asked the hon Bebee if it is the response to the question that she asked and she



agreed. I am still the Chairperson, even if Mokause doesn’t feel like that. I have made sure that it is the correct response to the question. Hon Bebee, your follow up. [Interjections.]



Ms L C BEBEE: Okay, thank you very much Chair and thank you very much, hon Minister for the detailed answer.



Hon Minister, in light of the President’s call in his inaugural state of the nation address in February 2018 that mining must once again be seen as a sunrise industry, what are the initiatives that the department has taken thus far to achieve this objective as pronounced to the nation by the President?





related to the original question, I will answer it.



We have been working with the mining industry in various aspects. I don’t know if you noticed that in the first quarter decline, mining contributed the biggest share of that decline — 0,8% of the decline.



We engaged the industry. There was ... [Inaudible.] ... of stability. In the second quarter, mining made the biggest positive contribution, which was 1% of the 3,1%.



Due to production and the management of companies not being in a straight line, it is a function of ongoing engagements which is happening in the industry. At the end of the day it is the mining companies that must turn the industry around and make it a reliable source of income for the country.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Adjunkvoorsitter, baie, baie dankie. My vraag gaan basies oor die rol van elektrisiteit in die ekonomie. Dit is die vraag hier.



Die Minister het erken dat die regering gefaal het om seker te maak dat daar genoegsame elektrisiteit ... die bou van kragstasies ... dat daar genoegsame elektrisiteit is. Hy het ook by tye genoem dat die regering gewaarsku was dat hulle in ’n sekere jaar 2007 die kapasitiet van kragvoorsiening gaan bereik ... dat daar ’n tekort gaan wees.



My vraag wat ek wil vra is ... want iemand moet verantwoordelikheid vat vir die feit dat die ekonomie in hierdie toestand is wat dit is en dat die burgers van die land in duisternis gedompel is.



Nou, my vraag aan die Minister is soos volg. Sal u die burgers van die land sê dat die ANC regering die citizens [burgers] van die land gefaal het?



Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP: Agb Minister, u hoef nie die vraag te beantwoord ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... as u nie so voel nie. U hoef nie die vraag te beantwoord as u voel dit is ... want dit is nie deel van die vraag nie. Maar, ons laat dit aan u eie oordeel oor.





verstaan daardie feit. [Tussenwerpsels.]





The answer is as follows. I agree with you that electricity in particular and energy in general is a catalyst for economic performance in a country. I also agree with you that, as we sit here today, the price of electricity is too high and it is not contributing positively to economic performance.



So, what should we do? The reason why we took this imitative of meeting with these stakeholders is to try and manage the price of



electricity downwards. If we can do that the economy will perform. Thank you. [Applause.]



Question 150:




Chairperson, actually the question should be directed to the Minister of Public Enterprises, where Eskom falls in terms of jurisdiction as we sit here today. However, what I can also confirm is that the Integrated Resources Plan, IRP, has now been gazetted. It is published and it gives the framework for sources of electricity generation. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, yes before that all of you just really put your hands down. Before that let us allow the hon Du Toit, because it is his question. The Minister was actually correct to redirect the question to the correct Ministry. However

... May I please, but the hon Du Toit we will allow you in terms of our procedure to ask your follow-up question and then we will come to you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Chair and hon Minister, since you mentioned that the question was posed to the incorrect department I



have the figures here. According to the Mail & Guardian indicated





The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Du Toit, really.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I have two minutes.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If you have the ... You have your two minutes, but if you have the response then why did you ask the question? Do not be like that. Come now.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chairperson, could you please just turn the clock back to give me my two minutes! Please be fair in this House! Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Minister according to the article in the Mail & Guardian dated 05 April 2019, that loses of about R1,4 billion on two contracts alone at that time, as Eskom did at that time paid one supplier Glencore double the prize, it was paying another smaller supplier for the same quality coal, R343,41 difference between Glencore and the smaller other prize of R607 per ton of coal, the cheapest supplier was R263 per ton of coal.



Now, according to the Mail & Guardian, up to R10 billion could have been saved if there were no ceiling price on coal and if there was



no corruption in the tender procedures and the allocation of these tenders.



My question is: Why didn’t the Ministry act timeously since this has been brought under the attention in the beginning of the year already, but up to now, none of these contracts have been rescinded?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, like I said, here you respond to questions that are applicable to you and not to new information. You do not have to.





also important to share information in the House. The hon member must remember Deputy Chairperson that I am in the Portfolio of Mineral Resources and Energy for five months now, but I do not renege the responsibility taken by my predecessors.



The reason that we are engaging coal mining companies and the renewable companies about the prices that goes to Eskom is because we want to deal with that issue. For if we succeed in dealing with that matter the picture will change. So, we are dealing with the matter and that is how far we have gone.





Nksz N NDONGENI: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo. Kufuneka siwafundise amalungu emibutho ephikisayo ngomsebenzi weSebe leziMbiwa nezaMandla kunye neSebe lezaMashishini kaRhulumente, elinoxanduva lokusoloko lijonge ukuba ingaba isebe lenza kakuhle kusini na kwaye nemali isetyenziswa ngendlela efanelekileyo kwa-Eskom. Imibuzo ngo-Eskom necontract unit costs malunga nezibhambathiso mayithunyelwe kwisebe lezaMashishini kaRhulumente.



Umbuzo uthi: Mphathiswa, ingaba ilizwe lomZantsi Afrika likulungele kusini na...





... to use coal cliff from tight mines?





Ingaba ayizukuba neziphumo ezibi kwabo baxhomekeke kumalahle ukwenza ingeniso? Enkosi, Sihlalo.





Chairperson and hon member, no, decisions that are taken cannot only consider communities just around the coal mines. We take decisions that talk to the needs of the country, that talk to our commitments



particularly the Paris Agreement and all those issues and we use those to take balanced decisions. That is why we subscribe to the Just Transition so that we do not move like a pendulum from one extreme to the other. In implementing the Just Transition we are going to be able to manage our movement from high emissions to low emissions.



So, communities that are surrounding the mines are taken into account in discussing the Just Transition. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, with the government’s continuous investment in coal-based electricity generation like the investment in Kusile and Medupi Power Stations, will you please today acknowledge that there is no current technology available to either reduce or eliminate carbon emissions from coal-based electricity generation and that there is no such thing as previously spoken of cleaner coal and by virtue of that that this government has not been committed to the Paris Agreement.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Again Minister, it is not in your question, but you can respond to it if you want to.





that when you tell the untruths with a straight face people believe you. There are technologies for cleaner coal and we are going to pursue them and test them. Already, we have a pilot study on carbon capture and deposit in the Northern KwaZulu-Natal. We are going to open a second pilot study in another second site. Once we have proven that it works we will report to government and see if we can use it widely.



We are also going to look into coal gas degasification and see what impact it will have on the quality of coal and the quality of emissions of coal. So, we need to all the time think, experiment and leave it if it does not work, but to just say because you say so, therefore there is no such a thing. I met it in the portfolio committee. I think it is the position of the DA that that is a myth. We want to test that myth and demystify it. [Applause.]



Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for your response. In the last few months the government has taken a firm view to stabilise the energy supply industry in terms of the Independent Power Producers, IPPs, in terms of the coal industry itself and in terms of bailing out Eskom. Are you quite confident that all these measures will lead us into the stability within the



sector and if not why don’t we look at it from another point of view?



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon member, that question takes us to the next question about the IRP. Actually the IRP has now been published and gazetted. Now, once it has been published and gazetted it provides us with the framework, but implementation will take its own time. As we test it we will see if it stabilises the economic supply. However, our commitment is on security of energy supply.



Question 141:




answer is simple, it’s that the Question has become redundant in that the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, was approved by Cabinet on the 16nth and gazetted on the 18nth.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit, do you want to make a follow-up Question?



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, as dumb, when I submitted this question it was not released yet, but thank you Minister for at long-last releasing the correct IRP for that matter. How will the



IRP contribute to your commitment to the Paris Agreement towards reducing our carbon footprint, which has 45% by 2015?



I also propose hon Minister, while the Minister of Environmental Affairs is sitting next to you, who actually said in our Committee of Environmental Affairs that there is no such thing as clean coal, and the carbon cannot be eliminated, catch it might be. But then, where is it going, under ground or into our water system or wherever you want to send it to? But I think you should take further advice from the Minister next to you. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: We’ll take the advice. We do take it all the time by the way.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, the Question was: When will the IRP be announced? It is announced and it has been published. So, there cannot be follow-ups because that was the Question. Let us now attend Question 159.



Question 159:




Whether it is prudent for the government to consider cancelling all Bid Window contracts? You don’t deal with contracts that way. Once



you sign a contract, that contract is valid, and you deal with your to a contract with respect. That’s why I explained earlier that, what we are busy with is not cancellation of the Bid Window contracts. It’s about talking to them to reduce the price so that the impacts will be on the ultimate Eskom price.



You see, all the time we have been told that on the average, renewables is R220. But on telling the actual figures, we discovered that actually, from PV Window 1 is at R4,25c a unit, and it goes on because they signed an agreement at this point and got guaranteed CPI increase o the price. That’s why we are talking to them. We are not forcing them or imposing condition to them. Instead, we are asking them if, we can find a formula of reducing that uptake price?



So, that’s what we are doing. Therefore, cancelling the contract is not on the table for now.





Mnr A ARNOLDS: Voorsitter, ek neem kennis van wat die Minister sê oor die vraag. Ek dink die Minister sal saamstem dat die prys van die krag te is hoog en dat dit nodig is vir ’n ingryping. Die regering en u sê altyd dat die regering aan die praat is, dat die



regering in gesprekvoering is, en besig is om te praat. Maar ek dink die tyd van praat is verby.



In hul gesprekke sê hierdie onafhanklike kragprodusente dat hulle wil hê hierdie kontrakte met nog 10 jaar langer verleng moet word.



My vraag aan die Minister is, stem u saam dat daardie kontrakte nog verleng word. Ons wil graag hê daardie kontrakte moet verbreek word. Dankie.










... onafhanklike kragvoorsieners ...





... that is, independent power producers. About the prices of Window 1, 2 and 3, we agree that they are expensive, that’s why we are negotiating with them. But if you look into the projection for Window 4, already the range is very close to being reasonable because on PV, it’s around R1,08c and on Wind, it is at 87c. So, it’s coming down.



Therefore, all we are saying is that: Let’s talk to them because renewables are not emergency energy suppliers, they must be part of the system all the time. That’s why they should be considered within the context of energy and the economy. So, the engagement with them is about that. Again, if you talk about cancellation of contracts, at this point in time, they are supplying about 4,5% of energy.



Once Window 4 gets into the stream which has already been signed, it will increase. We are projecting about 18% from renewables by 2030 in the IRP. So, we are not only looking at the price, but we are also looking at the security of supply.





Me D G MAHLANGU: Adjunkvoorsitter ...





Ndiyabulele Mphathiswa ...





Considering that the cost of renewable energy has declined dramatically in the last decade. The renewables forms a key element of nongrid connection to rural areas. What is government’s long-term strategy to procure renewable energy in order to ultimately lower



the price of electricity and achieve the NDP target of full electrification by 2030?





remember as we seat here today that renewables do not have the baseline capacity. They don’t have it. They give you energy on availability. What is thought to be a solution to that, but not immediately, is the development of the battle storage technology. Once you have it, you will go a long way in addressing the base load problem.



Now, as I said earlier, some people are always shouting at me about when do I declare Bid Window 5, but I say, I don’t want Bid Window 5, I want renewables to be part of the system in the long term. I also tell them to be ready for Bid Window 27 if need be. But the most important thing is that, the reason that we give you an energy mix proposal is that we don’t want to have a total fail option because we are not like Germany which have France as a neighbour, where they don’t have the baseline, they can get it from the nuclear energy in France.



We don’t have that neighbour. That is why we should move correctly...





... sihambe kakuhle.





... and actually be systematic in movement from high emissions to low emissions. That is our approach to this matter.



Mr C F B SMIT: Minister, do you support the cheaper Energy Bill in concept that will see energy security and price relief to the already strained and struggling South Africans who can’t afford another electricity price hike?



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: I normally explain this concept to people like hon Smit that, lowest cost doesn’t mean cheapest. Okay? It means the net impact of the cost overall, including opportunity cost and other things. For an example, when you burn diesel in pick hours, it is very expensive, but in terms of availability, it is the lowest cost option at your disposal.



So, I understand that concept in broad terms than narrowly cheap as in rands and cents. I look into opportunity cost. That’s why for an example when I argue with many people who are very fundamental in discussing this issue, I normally tell them that, if you look into



nuclear power from Koeberg today, it is at 40c per unit to Eskom. It is the lowest, most reliable and most efficient.



But, if you want to assess the cost, you must build in the commissioning cost which is higher, and the decommissioning cost which is also higher. So, the cost should be covering all aspects of the life of a facility. That is why that Question was posed. We have energy mix in the IRP so that we can have options in dealing with this matter.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Through you Chairperson, Minister, apart from all the very sound reasons you have given why we shouldn’t annul these contracts legally, would it not also pose financial problems for Eskom, should they choose that route?



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Deputy Chairperson, it would in a way because if you breach a contract, you are subjecting yourself to penalties. That’s why it is always not advisable to be delinquent in dealing with partners in any relationship. Thank you.



Question 162:




Development Trust owns three per cent Sishen Iron Ore Company Party



Limited. Other companies in the area will be expected to comply with the 2018 Mining Charter when they renew or cede their mining rights. The Board of Trustees is comprised of a number of members. We have listed the names from Nelson Mosiapoa, Vusi Malie, Cynthia Mogodi, Conny Molusi, Derek Van Staden, Willem Heerden, Schaba Sithole, Amanda Dippennar, Apheous Pole, Yvonne Mfolo and the Trust gets audited by an independent auditor on an annual basis. So, every year you get audited financial statement of the Trust and the Trust is involved in many activities in the Kuruman Kathu, Postmasburg area and broader Northern Cape. As of today, the Trust is worth

R6 billion net asset value and it’s among others owned a 30% stake in SA Airlink. When you get into a plane SA Airlink, you must know that 30% belongs to the Trust, which is worth R400 million and the Khathu Solar Park. So, it’s an active Trust that is not waiting for dividends, it is also involved in many other activities to improve its capacity.



Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, allow me to appreciate the input made by the Minister on the question that I posed. Though the question was necessarily confined to Sishen Iron Ore Company, SIOC, the mining companies also in the Kalahari base, including both Assmang ... [Inaudible.] and other black emerging manganese players. However, I will use the information that is



provided to a follow up question, hon Minister. Hon Minister, from the information that you have provided, clearly the domination by the company’s Trustees, which is four and the two independent Trustees appointed also by the founder, creates an imbalance composition of this Board of Trustees. This clearly says that the decisions in terms of this Trust will always be skewed in favour of the mining company. Therefore, one critical element that I want to request the Minister to do, will the Minister engage the mining company with regard to the independent Trustee and the chairperson of this Board because the term has expired. For us, as an ANC-led government, we exercise control over these entities that are supposed to be owned by the communities. It is important that we have control. Therefore, will the Minister engage the mining company to ensure that he is consulted on the appointment of the chairperson and the independent Trustees, and also the reduction of the mining company’s Trustees on that Board? Thank you, hon Minister.





Chairperson, you are right in principle, but the other side you should work whether the Trust is performing - to me that is the test. It is not who is in it because you can put the right people. We know of Trust like that where you have all the right people and the money disappears. You can’t account for it; you can’t account



its investment and you can’t locate the value. There are such Trustees. So, in whatever we do with that Trust, we should assess its performance and whether it is doing what is expected of it to do. Then, we correct areas where there are weaknesses. That is what I agree to. For me, I don’t think the issue is the part of appointing the chairperson; it is whether that chairperson of the Trustees together with the Trust, do what is expected of them and the Trust is performing. Not unless we say it is not developing the area to the extent it expected to. However, opening it up for the sake of opening up may bring in other operational and financial risks to the Trust itself.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If I was not chairing, I would have said something, but let me ... eat my piece. [Laughter.]






The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I will tell it afterwards.



Mr W A S AUCAMP: Thank you Deputy Chair and the Minister, I have been covered in a certain sense by hon Mmoiemang. I just want to clarify, hon Minister, these Trustees are they getting any education or help from your department? If not, are you willing to assist them



so that we can uplift them as Trustees of the day in those Boards or Trust where they are sitting? Can they really fulfil the jobs they are supposed to do, to the best of their abilities and to the advantage of those communities they are serving? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: And not specifically but we can advise, because the Trust has the resources. It can send its Trustees for training. That can be taken on, but if you need our advice, we can advise that Trust. One of the issues that we have avoided even in the new Mining Charter is to create clauses that put our fingers in the till. We are not children of shopkeepers. We can’t keep our fingers in the till, we must be away. We can advise the Trust but we must keep a healthy distance between the Trust and the department. Next time we’ll come here, you will be asked questions that a departmental official X, Y and Z have done this and that. You must be careful of that, as a department.



Ms M MOKAUSE: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, calling for nominations of this particular Trust and appointment of these Trustees, the majority of times, it is done in an extremely skewed and favourable way to the ruling party. Members who are appointed belong to the ruling party and they account to the ruling party. As a result, when development and any other tenders are advertised,



they benefit – the ruling party and those who are in charge of the Trust. The community suffers because those who are in the Trust belong to the ruling party. We want to see participation across the board irrespective of your political affiliation, but that is not happening. What is your intervention in this regard, as a Minister of Mineral Resources?





Trustees are appointed in terms of political affiliation. I do not know that. [Interjections.] No, you asked a question. [Interjections.] Don’t shout and point fingers. Listen, listen!

Listen, I am giving you an answer Mokause. [Interjections.] Hon Mokause, I am giving you an answer to your question. Yes, hon Mokause.



One of the things that is always confusing people is if for example in a particular area the footprint of a particular party is big, it will be big in that community. Therefore, it is easy to see the fingerprints of that party in any structure in that community.

However, normally it is dependent on the activities of the individual members in that community to be nominated and elected a Trustee. I know of many Trusts’ that are chaired by nonANC members, and they are doing well, but in the Board you will find a number ANC



members’ because of the demographics of the area and the footprint of the ANC.



Now if development is in the community, it can benefit a particular party. A development in a community benefits community members irrespective, of affiliation. Not unless, there is a dishing out of money, then it is dished out to the ANC member. [Interjections].

Okay, don’t generalise, talk about this Trust. This Trust is one of the performing Trust, but we’ll talk to Ntate Mmoiemang to hear details of the proposal he is making on how to strengthen it because it is working.



MS M O MOKAUSE: [Inaudible.]








The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokause show respect. Don’t be like that. Don’t put our House in disrepute.



Mr A B GOYIYA: Chair, I would have thought that the hon Minister wouldn’t stoop so low and just respond to vague and false accusations. However, I appreciate the way you responded, hon



Minister. Indeed, you can’t be crucified for the size of your organisation. The issue that I wanted to raise is that we have a number of mining companies in the Northern Cape in particular that consistently failed to comply with the prescribed legislation. We have inspectors in the department that have a responsibility of ensuring that they monitor and enforce compliance. Now, I want to check with the Minister regarding the relation to these Trusts and how they plough back to the communities, because the Mining Charter and the MPRDA prescribed that they should plough back. So, I just wanted to check on the level of the Ministry what monitoring mechanism is done to ensure that those officials that are responsible to do that particular work do that work diligently and don’t fall prey of these big companies in terms of monies and ensuring that communities benefit directly from these Trusts? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: We made an observation earlier and there are areas in the department where there are weaknesses. One of those is monitoring and evaluation and ... [Inaudible.] ... is community outreach. We are working on that to set out more structured units in the department to do that work.

More importantly, if you look into our audit reports by the Auditor- General, you find that the area responsible for that area scored



lowest in the department. All our branches scored eight and above and regulations scored 67. We looked into the weaknesses in the branch and one of those areas is this one: enforcement of monitoring and evaluation. It’s a pity that Comrade Bavelile passed on prematurely. May her soul rest in peace because we gave that responsibility to her, but specifically to chase monitoring and evaluation? So, we are paying attention to that issue -it is one of the weaknesses in the department.



Question 4:


The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: The question is by hon Boshoff of Mpumalanga, eh. Hello, hello, hello Boshoff, hello. Yes, the Minister confirms that a mining right and environmental management programme are issued to William Patrick Bower (Pty) Ltd, in respect of Portion 6 and Portion 23 of Groenvlei and Portion 12 of Lakkavalli 322 JS situated in the magisterial district of Belfast in Mpumalanga province. It was issued on 09 November 2016.



The mining development was granted considering that it complied with the principles of integrated environmental management as prescribed in section 38(1) of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, MPRDA. The Minister was satisfied that the development will achieve the said principles and give effect to Chapter 5 of the



National Environmental Management Act 107 of 1998. A local municipality has a mandate of considering and issuing rezoning to any land parcel falling within its jurisdiction. In that regard, they will have knowledge of the land parcels that are subject to rezoning applications and or where rezoning has been granted.



In other words, the rezoning part of any parcel of land in any municipality is not the responsibility of the department but it is the responsibility of the municipality. I would imagine that that is the planning section of the municipality that does rezoning. At the time of the consideration of the mining right application, the environmental impact assessment and the environmental management programme lodged in terms of section 39 of the Act, the Minister did consult in terms of section 40 of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 202 and the state department with the role in administering any laws relating to matters affecting the environment.



No, the Minister has not requested the water test from the Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation. The requirement to provide water samples and tests is a condition of water use licence and falls within the competence of the Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation in terms of the National Water Act



36 of 1998. The Minister has not been supplied with the report of the Environmental Impact Assessment studies that was conducted by the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries and is not aware of its content.



Therefore, that shows the complexity of that space that when you issue a mining licence, you must comply with the requirements that are located in two other departments. I am sure that in the Bill that is on the pipeline they will add agriculture. It is quite a complex exercise, we fulfil our part but other departments have also a responsibility over aspects of the legislation and of the work.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Minister, even though the Mpumalanga Tourism and Parks Agency together with the Mpumalanga government were opposed to this mining that is taking place, your department went ahead and issued the relevant mining licence. What I would like to know from you is; whether you can indicate whether the mining is still going on today as we speak or whether it has been halted? If it has not been halted because it is a protected environmental area, would you today undertake that all future mining applications in declared protected areas will not take place without the relevant licences and certificates crossing all the departments as you have just indicated? Thank you.





practice even today. That is why in addition to work with all the departments we respect the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries as an appeal body so that if there is a mistake in the assessment, it can be repealed by the appeal body which is the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries. It is not just the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. Actually, granting a mining licence is one of the most complex things. At one point I was saying to my colleagues in the Cabinet that if things goes the way they are, in few years time mining will be banned in South Africa. My own view is that ... I want you to listen ... whether it is mining today, I can go and check that I don’t want to guess and just give you a two way answer. I will check if it is operational.



As you would see that the granting of that licence precedes my term however, I take responsibility for it. I can go and follow it up and check it.



Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Minister, I want to ask, did the coal mining activities have any economic spinoffs and job opportunities for the people of the surrounding area?



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: Actually, leave the fact that everybody thinks that coal mining is dirty, it is the biggest generator of revenue in mining today. Coal mining is the biggest generator of revenue in SA mining today. That is what it is. It exploits coal and supplies Eskom because sometimes when we talk of coal we just think of the picture of coal to Eskom. It is a big generator of revenue. It does benefit communities around them and also the reason that there is this complex relationship with the environmental assessment and all that is because mining sometimes pollutes in the majority of places and therefore it needs to be regulated tightly to minimise the negative impact of mining.

However, it is an economic activity. It is a very viable economic activity and it employs many workers. [Applause.]



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chair, it is very interesting that the Minister says that coal mining sometimes pollute. Minister, as this was actually a written question - that was transferred to oral questions - can you please commit to this House that you will actually answer written questions in the prescribed time so that you don’t need to answer that in the House?



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, that is not a question. Can we then request hon Bebee. You took someone’s question now, hon Smit. Hon Bebee.



Ms L C BEBEE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I just want to check with the hon Minister if he is compelled to get a report of the Environmental Impact Assessment study before issuing the mining rights? Thank you, Minister.



The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY: It is a requirement. It is a requirement that I do get the environmental certificate, the water and I am sure it will now be extended to agriculture and land use.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, on behalf of the leadership of the NCOP let me take this opportunity to thank the Minister for availing himself to take questions in the NCOP. Thank you, hon Minister. [Applause.]



Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.




In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.



Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have been informed that the committee has agreed not to proceed with Order Six, as printed in the Order Paper. The secretary will read the First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth and Seventh Orders of the day.
























Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, as you indicated, I am going to present a consolidated report of the six municipalities in the North West province.



During the period of April 2019, the North West Provincial Executive Council resolved to invoke interventions measures in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in Naledi, Tswaing, Madibeng, JB Marks, Ratlou, Mamusa and Lekwa Teemane local municipalities.



Subsequent to the tabling of notices of interventions by the MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, in the North West, the office of the Chairperson of the NCOP referred, in terms of Rule 101 of the NCOP, the notices of interventions to the select committee for consideration and reporting.



As part of the public participation process, the select committee conducted in loco inspections to the above mentioned municipalities from 27 to 29 August 2019.



The objective of the in loco inspections to all the respective municipalities was to interact with the internal and external stakeholders of the municipalities in order to solicit their opinions and views on the constitutional, procedural and substantive



matters related to the invocation of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in all these municipalities.



During the entire period of interaction with the various stakeholders as well as the local structures of political parties within the respective municipal areas, the decision to invoke section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic was endorsed, with beneficiary local communities advocating for change and improvement in the manner in which municipal government and administration is being handled so as to enhance the institutional capacity of each municipality to execute its respective role and mandate in the delivery of services.



As a result of the highest number of municipalities falling under section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in the North West province, a decision was taken to progressively address the endemic dysfunctions and challenges that impinge upon the ability of these institutions to perform and discharge their executive obligations in line with the Constitution as well as policy and legislative prescripts.



Hon House Chair, generally speaking, the collapse of service delivery, deficiencies and instability in good governance and administration, as well as distress in their financial management



capability has been noted with serious concern by the NCOP select committee.



The committee observed widespread political factionalism; ill- discipline amongst councillors; appointment of unqualified municipal officials; noncompliance with the existing legislation; and general lack of consequence management and capacity of municipal leadership to ensure smooth, efficient, effective and people-centred local government. All of these are the major causes for the collapse of the municipalities and their dysfunctionality, hence the invocation of section 139 of the Constitution.



Section 152(1)(b) of the Constitution provides that a municipality must ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable manner, and section 152(1)(d) of the Constitution provides that a municipality must promote a safe and healthy environment. Therefore, the select committee is of the opinion that the service delivery failures of the municipalities in the North West have triggered the invocation of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution.



In general terms, the select committee is of the opinion that the instability related to good governance as captured in the notices



tabled to the NCOP, the Minister of Cogta and the presentation made by the MEC in all respects ...



Based on the above situation, we are briefly going to tackle each municipality with regards to the recommendations that we place before the House.



Having conducted the oversight visit to Naledi Local Municipality and interacted with everybody as I stipulated, we made the following recommendations: The select committee notes the intervention, in terms of section 139 of the Constitution, expired on 30 September 2019. Further notes that in terms of section 139(1)(b)(ii) of the Constitution, the intervention must end if the Council disapproves of it within a period of 180 days after the intervention began or by the end of that period, if the intervention has not been approved.



Based on the above, as the intervention has expired by operation of the law, if the North West Provincial Executive Council sees the need to intervene it should re-table the notice of intervention to the NCOP. In essence, we mean that we are not approving this intervention because of the reasons provided for.



In respect of Lekwa-Teemane Local Municipality the select committee recommends as follows: Having conducted the oversight visit to Lekwa-Teemane Local Municipality and interacted with everybody, we recommend that the NCOP approves the intervention in Lekwa-Teemane Local Municipality.



The administrator should develop measurable municipal turnaround strategy aligned with his terms of reference and provide the MEC for Local Government and Human Settlements and the municipal council with regular reports on the implementation of the intervention. The administrator must ensure investigation and implementation of consequence management.



The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in the North West province must ensure security and safety of all appointed administrators in collaboration with the relevant state security agencies because the situation is cantankerous. The Administrator should ensure that the developed turn-around strategy, amongst others, focuses on plans to comply with the legislative requirements.



The North West MEC for Local Government and Human Settlements, in collaboration with the National Minister, should in terms of section



154 of the Constitution and other relevant legislative prescripts, provide continuous support and monitoring to the Municipality.



The MEC for Local Government must provide the NCOP and the North West provincial legislature with quarterly reports on the progress made in respect of the implementation of intervention.



With regard to Tswaing Local Municipality, the select committee found out that there is indeed a compelling case for the invocation of section 139 of the Constitution, and therefore places the following recommendations: The NCOP approves the intervention in Tswaing Local Municipality.



The administrator should implement consequence management with regard to the noncompliance of the requirements of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework and its regulations. The administrator should develop and implement a post audit action plan to address previous audit queries and qualification.



There should be mechanisms and systems in place to strengthen internal control and implement revenue enhancement strategy for the municipality. That the MEC in respect of Tswaing as well, must provide support and strengthen capacity of the municipality in terms



of section 154 of the Constitution and other legislative prescripts. The MEC must in the same vein produce and submit quarterly reports to the NCOP as well as the relevant provincial legislature select committee. The MEC for local government should table the termination or exit report on the intervention in the municipality to the NCOP.



With regard to the JB Marks Local Municipality we must point out that there were no interactions with the external and internal stakeholders. There was a lot of confusion within the municipality with the municipality prevaricating on the need and the purpose of the visit of the NCOP.          That in itself was demonstrable evidence that the municipality is unstable and warrants an intervention and the invocation of section 139 of the Constitution as it was invoked by the provincial government.



Having noted the above, we placed the following recommendations: The NCOP approves the intervention in the municipality in terms of section l39(1)(b) of the Constitution. The North West MEC for Local Government should, after the adoption of this report of the select committee, table quarterly progress reports on the implementation of the intervention.



The select committee, in co-operation with the relevant portfolio committee in the North West, should after termination of the intervention, conduct a follow-up oversight visit to the municipality in order to evaluate the impact of the intervention in accordance with the terms of reference of the administrator.



With regard to the Madibeng Local Municipality we place the following recommendations for consideration: The NCOP approves the intervention in Madibeng Local Municipality. The relevant MEC should table the departmental investigation report, implementation plan and the forensic investigation report in terms of section 106 of the Municipal System Act to the NCOP, after tabling it to the municipal council of the municipality.



The administrator should fast track the process of investigating the irregular appointment of contractors within the municipality, and table quarterly preliminary reports to the NCOP for our consideration.



The MEC for Local Government in the province should put in place monitoring mechanisms on forensic investigations and follow up all those recommendations by the administrator. This committee, together



with relevant portfolio committee, should also equally conduct a follow-up to ensure aftercare for whatever was done.



Lastly, having noted the situation in the Ratlou Local Municipality, the committee recommends as follows: The NCOP approves the intervention in Ratlou Local Municipality in terms of section l39(l)(b) of the Constitution.



The administrator should conduct an investigation on the unauthorised, irregular and fruitless and wasteful expenditures incurred in prior years, to determine if any person was liable for the expenditure as required by section 32(2)(a) and (b) of the Municipal Finance Management Act. The administrator should revise the draft turn-around strategy in order to also focus on consequence management, filling of critical vacant positions and the payment of third parties.



The North West provincial government its department, should, in collaboration with the Minister, provide support to the Ratlou Local Municipality in terms of section 154 of the Constitution and other legislative prescripts. The MEC should table quarterly reports to the NCOP in respect of this matter. The MEC should also table a



termination or exit report to the NCOP on the implementation of the intervention in the municipality.



This select committee in co-operation with the relevant portfolio committee in North West, should after termination of the intervention, conduct a follow-up oversight visit to the municipality in order to evaluate the impact of the intervention in accordance with the terms of reference of the administrator. That is a consolidated report that I place before this House for consideration. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on a point of order before I read the declaration. I haven’t seen any speakers list with the name China on it. The member has just read a report without speakers list. Just a report in any case. Hon Chairperson ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, we do have the speakers list.



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: With his name?









Declaration of vote:


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The Western Cape does not approve this intervention due to constitutional processes and procedures that were not followed for years.



Evidently to the records of provincial section 193 interventions, there is no legislation or institutional improvement in this action since there is no enforcement of the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, section 32 transgressions or application of any form of consequential management.



In terms of section 152 of the Constitution, JB Marks Municipality did not comply with its constitutional obligations.



The North West Provincial Government and the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs did not comply with the constitutional section 154 in their failure by legislative and other matters in their oversight capacities to support this municipality.



Interventions within the political composition of a municipality will not ensure sound financial management.



The financial mismanagement, fraud and corrupt activities, cadre deployment of unskilled employees will remain the status quo of management causing collapse of municipalities. Therefore, the NCOP cannot be used to rubberstamp for the sake of compliance when there is an increase in irregular, unauthorised and wasteful expenditures of billions of rands. Therefore, the Western Cape will not support this intervention.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Before I can entertain any province, it will be in order to indicate that when we started, we started by voting by the motion that was presented by the Chief Whip of the NCOP. All provinces voted in favour. That motion was to allow us to have the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Water and Sanitation and Human Settlements, hon Dodovu, to present the report as agreed by the House in terms of our Rules. So, that was attended to accordingly in terms of our Rules.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



Against: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Question put: That the Report be adopted.




In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



Against: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Declaration of vote:



Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I just want to repeat that the declaration I made on the first vote is applicable until vote six. Thank you.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



Against: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



Against: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Question put: That the Report be adopted.



In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.



Against: Western Cape.



Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.






Question put: That the Report be noted.



Report accordingly noted.



The Council adjourned at 18:28.




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