Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 11 Sep 2019


No summary available.




Watch Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkTl5nv3Cc8&t=714s



The House met at 15:01.


The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



Cluster 2


Question 72:


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, the information that the member is raising about fraud in the scholar transport is a matter that the province is seized with. The information we have received from the province is that the service provider has been ferrying learners from 9 July and there are no reports of



learners not being ferried, but an investigation has been established to check all the facts relating to this matter and they would be made available as soon as they are ready.



Ms N R MASHABELA: Thank you Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister - the question was sent long time ago. So, you cannot come here and tell us you don’t have answers. What were you doing all the time because you have received these questions? Deputy Speaker, if the investigation was done, what are the names of companies implicated and who are the directors of those companies? If not investigated, how soon can we expect the matter to be investigated and finalised. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The member might be aware that scholar transport is a provincial competency and the speech with which we can respond depends on the availability of information from the province. So, I am giving her the answer on what the province said and I am not sure what else to say except that this is the provincial competency and we have the answer, and I gave her the answer as received from the province. With regard



to other issues relating to where was so and so, I don’t know. I remember that she asked where the contractor and everybody else were. [Interjections.]



Ms N R MASHABELA: The Minister is out of order here. Deputy Speaker, you need to call the Minister of Basic Education, she is out of order - completely out of order. [Interjections.] The Minister must learn to do her job, please.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You have interrupted me; you don’t know what I was going to ask. You have taken over from me; I can’t proceed with what I wanted to do on your behalf.



Ms N R MASHABELA: Okay, proceed and I will come back ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you can’t come back, your time is up! [Interjections.] Yes, on this question your time is up. [Interjections.]



Ms N V MENTE: No, no, no, don’t be emotional. You cannot say to people that their time is up ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Her time is up!



Ms N V MENTE: It is finished but you don’t have to make hand gestures! [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yours is finished.



Ms N V MENTE: You do not have to make hand gestures. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mente, hon Mente, sit down! Your psychological lessons to me are hopeless. Don’t try that. [Interjections.] No, you are out of order.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Can I stand on a point of order, Deputy Speaker?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, would you like to add to the questions raised?



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Can I stand on a point of order, Deputy Speaker?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: You can’t make a hand gesture like that. You always want to collapse this House. [Interjections.] You seem to enjoy it. [Interjections.] You were not trained on our behalf, so you should stop it!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: You should stop it!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, and stop it! [Laughter.] Hon Minister?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, as I indicated, the province has committed to run that. The outcomes of the investigations will be furnished in due course. The Limpopo province has committed itself to a credible, fair, equitable,



transparent, competitive and cost effective procurement system. As I said, it is a provincial competency, and we are depended on them to give us answers as the province.



Ms N V MENTE: Can I stand on a point of order?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, ma’am?



Ms N V MENTE: The Minister cannot say they are depended on a province and not give us a timeframe, for example they can say at least by next week or in three days they will get back to us. [Interjections.] We are not going to wait indefinitely here when kids are dying when using scholar transport.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. You have an answer; you know what to do next. You are supposed to write your displeasure and submit it to the Minister. This dialogue is taking away other members’ legitimate question time. Go ahead, hon Shaik Emam.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, it is common knowledge that throughout South Africa our learners are experiencing great difficulty, particularly as a result of whether the function of learner transport should fall under the Department of Transport or of Basic Education. This matter was addressed by the national department. Could you tell us what is the latest development in this matter?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Treasury and the Department of Basic Education have a report which was meant to address the matter because the member is quite correct, it has been a very troubling area and there are recommendations from the report which will be tabled tomorrow at the Council of Education Ministers, CEM. One of the proposals is that we should take scholar transport and ring-fence the resources and get procurement happening in provinces so that we can supervise it.



There is still a discussion with the Department of Transport because in some provinces, scholar transport works very well under Transport and in some provinces, it works well under Education. So, tomorrow we will resolve with the MECs where we



will locate the issue but I must admit that it has been a problem from our monitoring as a provincial competency.



Ms C V KING: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister, I am glad that you said that this will be reviewed tomorrow. Will you also be looking at a standardised funding model because of different domains in the function arena? Will that also be reviewed and also the five-kilometre radius?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, as soon as the money is allocated to provinces -in terms allocation, it is the province’s share prerogative where it allocates the money and how it distributes the money. What we are looking at basically, or what comes from that report is that we have to look at adequate funding because some provinces don’t have adequate funding for transport. But in some provinces there are also quite a number of problems where learners who are not supposed to be transported are transported or learners who are supposed to be transported are not transported. It is important to look at a myriad of problems that exist. I can assure you that by tomorrow that report will be available because it is going to be



tabled at the CEM and we will really look at it. By tomorrow we will be able to say what we have agreed on as the Council of Education Ministers with regard to how we deal with ongoing problems in scholar transport.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker. Hon minister, I just want to check if perhaps the deductions are made because most of the time the operators responsible for scholar transport do not transport these learners to school and back. I want to check if you have that information. When they are paid, are there any deductions that have been made accordingly with regard to the days the learners were not transported to school and back? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The details around how we pay scholar transport operators with regard to contracts will come from the meeting because other provinces like Gauteng have an advantage in that they don’t have the same kilometres as other provinces and they also don’t have days whereupon the scholar transport doesn’t work. For instance, if you use public transport like a Putco bus which transport people everyday, you



won’t pay it if you don’t use it on a particular day, but if it is scholar transport, and a learner is allocated that transport but doesn’t go to school on a particular day, the buses would operate and drivers have to be paid. Those are all the details we will be looking into to check how cost-effective we can make scholar transport and also how to attract people to be willing to provide scholar transport for the department.



Question 86:


THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, let me just apologise. I will respond to the question but I just want to say that the question refers to the disadvantages of the Northern Cape in terms of budget allocation. The real challenge we have with he Northern Cap is that all the provinces are given an allocation on the basis of a formula that is provided by the Financial and Fiscal Commission.



It takes into account the population size. It takes into account the economic activity generated by the province. Therefore, as the formula stands, it makes it difficult to adjust for the long distances between towns and cities and the very vast areas in



that province. This is the challenge that we have had to face and deal with.



In relation to the concern about doctors, we have acknowledged the fact that there is a shortage of doctors in the area. We have put an additional amount of about R13 million to employ 25 additional doctors, on top of the 73 doctors that the province is going to be employing itself. That is how far we were able to deal with this matter but we are in the meantime looking into the challenge of the declining allocation that the province has reported to the Department of Health and it is a matter that we have referred to Treasury for further discussion. Thank you very much,



Mr M S SOKATSHA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, thank you very much for the response. Hon Minister, in September 2018, President Cyril Ramaphosa announced government’s economic stimulus and recovery plan. The plan speaks to among other things addressing the urgent and pressing matters in health by announcing that the Minister of Health and the National Health



Council will immediately fill 2 200 critical medical posts, including nurses and interns.



Now, Minister I want to check: How will the allocation of these critical medical posts address the vast landscape of the Northern Cape province; and how will this plan by the President result in improving quality of service received by the people of the Northern Cape and South Africa at large?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Indeed, the President announced the stimulus package. It was supposed to focus on our ability to employ additional personnel. It was also supposed to focus on us being able to acquire the shortfalls in the equipment. I must indicate that the Northern Cape was given also support with regards to what the stimulus package was providing. To go into the details of what would have been procured, how many staff, I would need to go and recheck that because it needs a little bit of research into what is going in the province. I must however say that all provinces did benefit from that stimulus package.

The whole idea was to make sure that the health services can resolve some of the urgent shortfalls, particularly on staffing



and equipment, linen and most of the issues that were pointed out as compromising the quality of health. So, the Northern Cape would have been in that situation. The details thereof are something that I will need to check and then make available to the member. Thank you.



Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Deputy Speaker Minister, one of the most cogent proposals from the EFF manifesto for the past election is that for the health system to be accessible to the majority of our people, the state must build at least one clinic per ward and ensure that such clinics are properly resourced with both human resources and medical supplies. Why has your department refused to ensure that at least in each and every ward there is a clinic that is opened 24 hours per day? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, I think your timeframes are a bit too short. If we would have expected that from the last elections, something could have been done. Now, I think that would have been quick on anything. However, the reality ... [Interjections.] Yes, the real issue is that we agree that we need to bring as many clinics as possible to the community.



At the moment, we generally go by a distance of 5km – a catchment area that is within a 5km radius. So, if there are clinics that are closer to that, it can happen because of planning, but in general terms, that is what we look at. The alternative is looking at the size of the population. Due to backlogs, it is not possible to put a clinic in each and every ward, but you can have more clinics in a ward depending on the density of the population there.



The issue of medical supplies and the issue of human resources are issues that we are addressing. We have indicated this year that the numbers of staff we want to ensure that we have put in position over 4 000 staff members that must be across various professional categories.



So, from that point of view, the matter is being given attention. What we have also said and we will raise it in another question, is that we have actually reprioritised our budget to make sure that we assist various provinces to be able to deal with the issues of staffing.



The issue of medicine availability, the approach we have taken is that those budgets must be ring-fenced so that there is no shortage of medicine. We have also indicated that there are systems now. One of them is what we call CCMDD, which is really there to assist the provision of medicine for those who are receiving chronic medication closer to where they live. We need to expand that.



Then, the other one is stock visibility system that is to look at the shortfalls in the ordering of medicine between the manufacturer and the hospital or a clinic they are supplying. So, we are dealing with all of those issues. Twenty-four hour services are not always possible. It depends on the availability of resources.



Ms S GWARUBE: Minister, the Kimberley Mental Health Hospital has been in construction since 2006 and its cost has climbed from R290 million to almost R2 billion due to mass corruption and theft of public money. Your predecessor committed to holding people accountable following the investigations by the Hawks, the Public Protector and the SIU.



Considering that a commitment has been made by your department that the hospital will be opened this month: Will this be the case? Who, both politicians and officials has been held accountable for the corruption; and what sanctions are being put in place?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Indeed, this matter has been raised a few times. One of the issues – we should be upfront: We cannot condone corruption; we can’t condone maladministration; and we have to act in instances where people have actually mismanaged funds. Once the matter has been given to the Special Investigation Unit and the Hawks, we then turn to be constrained in terms of what action you can take because we have to allow that process to go on.



We can only assure you that once those processes are through, then of course there will be consequences based on what those investigations are able to demonstrate. So, from where we sit, we hope that this hospital issue will be closed – as you have indicated, hon member - and that we are expecting it to be opened very soon, but at the same time there are issues indeed.



We have got the invitation, et cetera, and we can talk about that, but the question of consequences is something that cannot be shelved. We will have to wait for those results and reports and then the consequences will have to follow from there. Most likely, if something is under SIU or Hawks, it is actually more criminal and therefore you can’t stop that process, it has to really continue.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbingo-Gigaba! Is she here? Who is taking that supplementary question?



Ms MBINQO-GIGABA: Hon Deputy Speaker, it has passed; I was supposed to ask a supplementary question on Basic Education.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a fourth space for the ANC. Go ahead!



Mr K L JACOBS: Hon Deputy Speaker!






Mr K L JACOBS: I am at the back here!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, go ahead and speak; I can see you now.



Mr K L JACOBS: Dear hon Minister, one of the core mandates of the Office of Health Standards Compliance is to monitor and enforce compliance by health establishments with norms and standards prescribed by the Minister in relation to the National health system.



My question is: What are some of the successes of the Office of Health Standards Compliance in ensuring the compliance of facilities to the prescribed norms and standards? My second question is: What are the interventions of the department to assist facilities where compliance is not optimal? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: May I just say briefly that the Office of Health Standards Compliance has been set up to inspections on various hospitals. We have found that very close to 50% of the facilities tend to be compliant and others are falling below that. So, we have put up a plan for what we call quality



improvement, which is to help to upgrade the quality in the various institutions where we have found that there is some shortfall.



Therefore, in the next few years, we have actually put money side to be able to deal with that issue. There is a similar question that is going to be coming on which I will be actually giving a bit more specifics on that matter. Thank you very much.



Question 49:


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: When I last checked, you were the Minister! It seems as if hon Tito was disrupting you! [Interjections.]





Deputy Speaker. It is the number of documents I have to go through in order to respond to this particular question. [Interjections.] Yes.



The question is about the water shortages in KwaZulu-Natal. The member wants to know whether I have in fact made an assessment



of the water scarcity in KwaZulu-Natal and what we are doing about it. [Interjections.]



I’m sorry ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order!





member will no doubt know that we have just come out of a very severe drought, especially in KwaZulu-Natal. He wants to know which areas and water services authorities are affected by the water scarcity in the area. He wants to know what we are doing about Ugu district in particular.



We do know that Ugu district has been extremely adversely affected by water shortages. I want to assure the hon member that one of the reasons I was caught up in this discussion with the Minister of Finance is because we need to get more resources for this to augment the support he has given for the resources we already have. He has agreed and he has signed off on



additional resources to offset the problems that we have in KwaZulu-Natal.



So, hon member, we do have a detailed ... All of these things I will give to the member. I’m not sure that I am able see which member it is. All of these will be sent to you so that you understand exactly what the detail is. [Interjections.]



One of the first things that happened to me as a Minister of water services is that I was approached by the MEC of the province for local government to indicate to me the problems they are having with water services there. He invited me over, and we spent two days in KwaZulu-Natal, together with the Umgeni Water Board, trying to understand what we are doing to support those areas where we have serious problems. I can assure you that Ugu counts as one the districts most in need of support and was given such support by the resources that we have.



Over and above the fact that we have problems that we have a water scarcity, we did discover that one of the areas that we need to support sufficiently is that of the municipalities. The



municipalities have a great deal of responsibility to ensure that the water and the support that is given to them in the maintenance of water tanks and boreholes reside with them and we do not have the kind of support from them that we should have.



But I will be able to give all of this to you in answer to your question.



The question further continues to ask what the other areas are that are ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, your time has expired. Hon Ngwezi







Mnu X NGWEZI: Sekela Somlomo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngodaba lolu olubucayi kangaka, ngithola ukudumala nje okuncane, Xhamela. Ngithola nje ukudumala okuncane, Xhamela, ngoba udaba lwamanzi udaba olubucayi kabi ezweni nje lilonke nasemhlabeni wonke kodwa-ke ngoba uthi uzonginikeza ulwazi olunye oluphelele ngalolu daba.



Ngicela ukubheke ukuthi, Ngqongqoshe, ngoba yonke indawo la kusuke kunesiteleka khona ikakhulukazi kwisifundazwe saKwaZulu- Natal naseNingizimu Afrika udaba lokuthi abantu basuke bekhala ngamanzi lusuke lungasele ngaphandle, lusuke luyingxenye. Yini mhlawumbe umnyango wakho oyenzayo ukuxoxisana mhlawumbe noMnyango Kahulumeni Wokubambisana kanye Nezindaba Zendabuko njengoba nawe ukugcizelele ukuthi abanye abantu, i- responsibility abangayenzi kahle omasipala.



Ngoba ngiyazi nje ukuthi umnyango wakho Ngqongqoshe laphaya eJozini usuqedile ukwenzwa lokhu okuthiwa yi-bulk system kodwa cishe sekuyizinyanga eziyisithupha ukuhanjiswa kwamanzi ngamapayipi kungakaqali noma awanele ukuthi abantu bonke bawathole amanzi ngokukhulu ukushesha futhi yonke indawo uma abantu bekhungathekile. Nqongqoshe ngodaba lwamanzi bavala imigwaqo bashise izingqalasizinda njengamaholo, izibhedlela nemitholampilo nokunye ongakubala. Ngakhoke, wudaba oludinga ukuthi sisheshe sililungise. Kodwa-ke ngifisa ukwazi ukuthi umnyango wakho unaziphi izinhlelo zokuzama ukulungisa lolu daba esibhekene nalo olubucayi kangaka. Ngiyabonga.





member, as I have indicated to you, we spent two days. We did not spend as much time anywhere else as we did in KwaZulu-Natal because we were aware of the sensitivity to which you refer which has to do with the drought from which we have just emerged.



We have augmented the resources that are given to you in relation to support for water to the municipalities, and we have also ensured that we can provide as many boreholes as possible for the water authorities that are suffering shortages of water.



The matter of reticulation is a long-term project that we are dealing with. For now, we are dealing with the drought to which you have referred. You wanted to know what areas in KwaZulu- Natal that are suffering from a shortage of water. We have a breakdown of that.



I particularly want to indicate to you that the area that you are talking about – which is Ugu district – has been provided with more support than anywhere else. We realised that it was



one of the KwaZulu-Natal areas that was the hardest hit by the drought. We have provided this and we are making sure that we can provide the back-up support in terms of the municipality resources that we are giving to you.



I also want to indicate that, in case ... just to give you a global picture. KwaZulu-Natal is not the area worst-affected by drought. We are dealing with other areas, but we prioritised KwaZulu-Natal because the MEC realised that, because of the protests, it is something that we needed to attend to as a matter of urgency.



So we are there. We are making sure that all of those matters that need to be attended to, are attended to.



I have a request to make of you, hon member. Some of the contractors that we take on board to come and assist with the delivery of water or the drilling of boreholes have complained to us that they are affected by people in your province who are called Amadela Ngokubona [Doubting Thomases] who demand that 30% of the project money be given to them even before the project



starts. This means that they start the project without sufficient resources required to do all the work.



Ms E L POWELL: Hon Minister, Ugu district municipality in KwaZulu-Natal – which is facing near financial collapse – has been struggling to provide water to all of its villages for almost four years. They regularly default on paying their creditors, and have passed two consecutive unfunded annual budgets.



The DA has, for the last three years, called on the KwaZulu- Natal MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to put Ugu under administration in terms of section 139 of the Constitution. These calls have fallen on deaf ears.



Can the hon Minister please provide us with some timelines by which the villages of Ugu can finally expect to receive clean, consistent, piped, potable water, given that they are currently receiving so much attention on account of your latest response?





the same answer would be given to you which I ended off. The people whom we have contracted on projects to assist ... especially Ugu district and many other districts which I will go through here, are hampered in their work by the elements that find themselves on the sidelines of these operators who demand money. So, between me, you and the hon member there, we need to find a way of meeting these people and saying to them that they are holding back development.



Over and above the fact that we do not have the necessary skills that we need in all of these municipalities, we have those scoundrels sitting out there taking money from people who have been given responsibilities to do what they are supposed to do.



If you can help me do that, I will be able to give you a date by which, in Ugu district ... [Interjections.]



Hon Deputy Speaker, I think these members ought to listen because this affects on the ground who do not have the water that you have in Bishopscourt! [Interjections.] We are trying to



provide water to the poorest of the poor, which you are hogging out in Bishopscourt and it doesn’t get to where it is supposed to. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you won’t want this done to you when you speak! Stop howling at speakers! It is out of order!



Mr J H STEENHUISEN: [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! It’s out of order, hon Steenhuisen. You can’t keep screaming at people! [Interjections.] No, no, no! [Interjections.]





know what you’re talking about because I have explained to her why I cannot give a definite date because of the obstacles. [Interjections.] You don’t know because you have an empty head!



Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to indicate to you some of the other problems that we are experiencing in that particular ...






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the point of order?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Is it parliamentary ...





Umzinyathi ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ...



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Is it parliamentary for an airhead to accuse another member of having an empty head?





Umzinyathi we have lack of capacity, we have lack of capacity to perform water functions ...






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Will you ask the member to stop talking and sit down, so that I can make the point of order?





can’t sit down unless he says so! [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, you are a Chief Whip, and your language is horrible! [Interjections.] Please, when you make your point of order, do it properly. [Interjections.] What did you call the member earlier on?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I couldn’t hear because she carried on talking. I’ll have to read ... [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, you didn’t hear what you said, yourself?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes. [Interjections.] But I would say to you, Deputy Speaker, it’s not my language which is horrible, it’s your chairing of the session that’s horrible! [Interjections.] When a point of order is taken ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ...



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: When a point of order is taken





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not going to lecture me on that!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, then can you just abide by the Rules?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! No, no! No, no! You have to be in order. Hon members, if you want to run these meetings, you will get an opportunity at some time in the future to come. [Interjections.] For now, I would like us to run the meeting properly, and when you raise your points of order, please do not




Ms P T VAN DAMME: Deputy Speaker ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am speaking! [Interjections.] I am speaking! Don’t interrupt me ... with the greatest of respect to



you. You are demanding of me to ask others to do what you are not doing. I am pleading with you to be consistent with you how you would like to be treated. This is what I am asking you to do.



So, let’s proceed.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I make a point of order in terms of Rule 92(10).



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Rule 92(10) is very clear. When a point of order is raised during a debate, the member called to order must – not may, not should, not at the discretion of the presiding officer – resume his of her seat. After the point of order has been stated to the presiding officer by the member raising it, the member raising it must likewise immediately resume their seat.



With respect, Deputy Speaker, you did not implement Rule 92(10) of the Rules and I would again say to you that, if the Rules are to be applied, they must be applied consistently. It is very clear that there are some people who don’t have to take their seat when a point of order is called.



I asked you whether it is parliamentary for the member standing here and who is still remaining standing despite me raising a point of order ... despite you not implementing the Rules of this House as required of you ... is it parliamentary to accuse a member of having an empty head?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I’m going to come back to the point of order you are raising for two reasons. Firstly ... [Interjections.]



No, no, no! Can you please ... [Interjections.]



Hon Minister, take your seat. [Applause.] Hon members ...



I’m going to come back to you for two reasons. The language you used to describe the Minister ... and I ... and this is the ... I’m saying this for the second time. [Interjections.]



Hold on! Hold on! Hold down! Hold on! [Interjections.] No wrongdoing gives you the right to do the same wrong thing. It’s inappropriate and you shouldn’t do that. This is why I’m saying I’m going to come back to you and to the language you used so that we discourage you in particular in this instance and every other member who seems to think it is okay to use language roughly in the House, despite the Rules. [Interjections.]



So, if you want order, you will be in order, yourself!



Proceed, hon Minister.



Ms T BREEDT: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?



Ms T BREEDT: Deputy Speaker, you have said nothing to the Minister.





... angazi noma uyamesaba yini.





You are busy attacking the Chief Whip here. You haven’t called her to order. She’s the one who said “empty head”. But it is easy to shout this side.





Khuluma nangalena, Sekela Somlomo.





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am going to come back to you, because I said I must do it properly. I think you are creating an environment in which it is inappropriate for us to behave the way we are behaving in the House.



Let’s proceed. Go ahead, hon Minister. [Interjections.]





just please, before I respond, also point out that what hon Steenhuisen is missing is that he stands up to call a point of order, but until the Chair actually asks me to sit down, that point of order does not hold. [Interjections.] Yes, the chair has to acknowledge you and ask me to sit down so that your point of order is acknowledged. That did not happen, and therefore I would like you to just sit there and listen. [Interjections.]



The hon member to whom I was responding, I was indicating to you that we are very concerned about the situation of water shortages in KwaZulu-Natal. We want to do everything we can to assist.



However, we do have some impediments which I will go through. I have indicated to the hon member from the IFP that the biggest impediment are those people who get to the project operators to demand money. This makes our operations there very difficult.



In short, we do have breakdowns of all the dates without the impediments which we will provide for you.



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Breedt ...



Ms T BREEDT: Deputy Speaker, through you, I would like to get back to ... The hon Minister has mentioned that we’ve just emerged from a drought, and that we are a water-scarce country and that there are areas that are affected by drought. I would like to bring that in with regard to water pollution, specifically our sewerage infrastructure. I hail from the Free State, and we have municipalities like Matjhabeng, Mafube and Ngwathe where we have raw sewerage running into the Wilge and Vaal rivers and, even in between, some of our townships and our suburbs.



What is being done to ensure water security by ensuring that our rivers and our water sources are protected from things like sewerage? Thank you.





you, hon member. The matter you are raising is one that we will



be attending to with the Deputy President in Sedibeng tomorrow. It has proportions that are completely unacceptable.



This situation comes about as a result of ageing infrastructure. The amount of sewerage that is carried through our pipes is greater than what he had anticipated. We need to do a complete overhaul of some of our systems to make sure that we are able to carry these through to water-waste treatment plants and carry them back to normal usage.



We are also thinking of investigating the possibility of separating pure water, water treatment and sanitation so that the systems run completely separately. This would mean that we would, at no point, have an overflow such as we have right now where we find sewerage spilling into our water.



This will take some technical assistance. It will also take a lot of resources to put in place. But we do know that we have that problem and we are dealing with it.



Tomorrow we will be in Sedibeng and we will make public what our understanding and our solution to the problem is. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntshayisa?



Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



Hon Minister, I am very worried about these 44 districts that are not delivering any services to the people, more especially water and sanitation ... [Inaudible.] I just want to check, therefore, whether it is not possible to do away with these districts. They are doing nothing to deliver services. That will allow you to concentrate on the local municipalities. Thank you.





at this point we would have to direct this question at the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs who competence it is to deal with districts as opposed to water resource services, which is what I deal with.



We will be together over the course of the next week, and these are some of the things that worry us a great deal. Where we find that is not workable, we will consider what you are saying.



But the hon member from the DA had raised a question to me that I was not aware of. This is that there had been a request over some time to put Ugu district under administration. I will check why it is taking so long. Because, if that is the case, the best case scenario is when some of these water services are not performing, or these municipalities are not performing is to put them under administration so that we are able to provide services directly to our people who need them.



But I will confer with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and I will come back with a response.



Question 65:


Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, sorry hon Minister, we were not informed that the question was withdrawn, but ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: By hon A Gela?



Mr N SINGH: Yes.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is already done. So, you are going to have to wait on some queue of one kind or another. Can you allow us to proceed?



Mr N SINGH: I will allow you, but next time they must tell us that the question is withdrawn.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will definitely do as you are pleased, sir. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, I was informed that the question was withdrawn, so we are on question

65 as you have guided. The reply to hon Gwarube is as follows: during January 2018 to December 2018, the Office of Health Standards and Compliance conducted inspections based on the national core standards. The total of 699 facilities was inspected, comprising 577 clinics, 44 community health centres and 78 hospitals. Again 350 facilities were compliant.



For the financial year April 2018-19, the Office of Health Standard Compliance inspected a total of 730 health facilities based on national core standards. Of this, 631 were clinics, 49 were community health centres, and 50 were hospitals and 379 were compliant.



The Department of Health has also developed a National Quality Improvement Plan to address the findings of the Office of Health Standards Compliance and to ensure facilities meets standards of quality. The requirements outlined in the Quality Improvement Plan to ensure full compliance, include amongst others: improvement of infrastructures, strengthened management skills, patient care management, improve human resources, and strengthened information management. A total of R300 million has been budgeted to improve quality over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period. This is over and above allocations of infrastructure, human resources, and building of health information system.



The quality health system requires that these aspects are adequately addressed. The quality improvement planning makes



provision for multidisciplinary teams. We are in the process of creating quality learning centres to build capacity across all levels of the whole country. This initiative will be created over the next 18 months period.



The quality health service requires that medicine, diagnostic services, blood services, and medical equipment are available when required and this depend on effective supply chain management.   Adequate Budget must be available. This must be effectively managed and therefore strengthening public financial management is a priority.



As outlined in the health compact joint initiative between national department of health and industry is envisaged to improve supply chain skills. Steps will be taken to develop the escalation protocols to address shortages of medicines, consumables, medical equipments, as well an early warning stock shortage management system.



The upscaling of central chronic medicine, dispensing, and distribution already successful implemented in some of the



provinces will assist us in ensuring that patients receive the necessary medicine on time. These initiatives will all address a common complaint of long waiting times and cues by the people attending the state facilities. Thank you.



Ms S GWARUBE: Minister, a report on the public health sector tabled in this House last year, reveal that a majority of clinics and hospitals are operating far below the required standard. Following inspections by the Office of the Health Standards Compliance in 2016-17, only five out of 696 public health facilities complied with the norms and standards. That is literally less than one percent of facilities that needs the international benchmark and the benchmarks that has been set by your department.



Globally, countries are moving towards achieving universal health coverage; however, in order for this type of framework to succeed, the quality of health facilities needs to improve and needs to meet international benchmarks. What practical steps will you and your department be taken be taking to ensure that the 99% of health facilities in this country, which don’t



currently meet the international standards do so within the next seven years?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, the results that I have just given to the House, actually is part of the report that the member is quoting. The figures she might be referring to might be figures that are referring to those that got over 80% of the compliance requirements. In terms of the same report, the level of requirements starts at around 60% upwards and so the numbers that I have given are actually what the details of that report are. I have given that in summary, but the response of what we are doing as I have already indicated is that we have quality improvement plan that is in place.



We have allocated R300 million to be able to over the MTEF to deal with issues of quality. Those amounts are actually not about the infrastructure refurbishment or improvement. They are not about staffing. They are just about focusing on quality, where we are training members as to what the relevant quality that is expected. I have highlighted in my earlier response. The specific areas where this money will be apply to. So, we do have



a plan and I must say that the quality of services in the public health sector does require lots of investment so that it can be improved and we are doing just that. So, it will take us a while but it is important for us to say that at the end, the quality of health care services should be the same in both public and private health sector. Thank you.



Ms NTLANGWINI: Sorry Chair, it will be the hon Tseko taking it.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, but he must sit at his desk and press the button at his desk.



Mr W T I MAFANYA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, the general state of infrastructure decay in some public hospital is horrifying. The Cecilia Makiwane Hospital for instance has been completely run down. Have you conducted an audit on run down hospital buildings around the country? If you had, do you think the general state of physical infrastructure of public hospitals is up to scratch for the implementation of National Health Insurance? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much hon member. Indeed, we have done the inventory of infrastructure in the whole country. This is probably the second time in twenty years it was done. We can actually account for each and every hospital or clinic right from the floor to the walls, to roof, to the electric connections, to the plumbing, to the doors, to the ablution facilities, to the theatres, and literally everything we can actually account for it.



The reality is that there is currently when I mentioned in this House that we need a creative mechanism to finance the upgrading of the structure I meant precisely because we have that figure. We have the figure and we have the numbers that need to be upgraded in the whole country and therefore the team between National Treasury and the National Health Department are looking at mechanisms to fast track the refurbishment and replacement of those facilities within the next to five to seven years.



I did indicate that as far as we are concerned it is feasible. We just have to make sure that the work is completed and then we will give you a proper report, but we actually checked each and



every facility. It is not the first time. In 1998, when it was done, it could have cost this country R28 billion to actually revamp literally every facility. We have a new figure and I won’t announce it now but at the right time we will actually give you the figure. Thank you.



Mr W M THRING: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Minister, Addington Hospital is one of the main hospitals in EThekwini Municipality providing crucial health services to hundreds of thousands of citizens in the city. Recently, emergency services in Durban have been notified that Addington Hospital will not be accepting any patients and the emergency services were asked to divert patients to surrounding hospitals, because the lifts are inoperable.



In June, patients had to go without breakfast, because the lifts in the sixteen storey building at Addington Hospital stopped working and KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, MEC, Nomagugu Simelane-Zulu voiced her unhappiness over the erratic functioning of lifts.



In the light of this unacceptable situation, what proper maintenance plan with consequence management is in place to ensure that our hospitals throughout the country don’t suffer the same problem as Addington Hospital? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much. I may not be off air with of what happened in the Addington Hospital, specifically on the day that you are referring to, hon member. It is something that we would have to just follow-up to see if they have attended to. The real issue is that the problem of poor maintenance is the problem that we have throughout the whole country that we have actually estimated that at this moment, we need about R2 billion to be allocated to the maintenance of all the hospitals. That is the work that is actually currently in place. We are working on that.



So, all the hospitals should have that plan for maintenance. Those which are not should probably be on the ten year plan for refurbishments, so that the parts that need to be attended to are upgraded. So, there is a plan for all.



In fact when talk about this plans to fast track the refurbishment of the facilities, we are hoping to be able to deal with and attend to all the facilities at the same time. So, we are aware of the problem of the poor state of a number of facilities. We are working on that.



Mr P A VAN STADEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, on


29 August 2019, it was reported in the media that all Gauteng state hospitals and clinics fails to a safety audits. I just want to know what the reasons were. Thank you, Chair.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, well I don’t have a full report on the matter. I will have to check that and come back to the member. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no you don’t whistle. The last time I check, that was out of order. [Laughter.]



Question 88:


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I’m sorry, there was a slight misunderstanding here.



The question by hon Jacobs refers to what is referred to as a patent cliff. The response is as follows: The term patent cliff is a term usually used by multi-national pharmaceutical industry to describe the declines in the high margins that they end by a product when it loses patent protection and consequently its market exclusivity with the entry of market of lower priced generics.



Of course, this becomes good news for the developing nations like South Africa where the implication is that we now have more affordable medicines, in the form of generic medicines, which would create access to all South Africans.



The SA Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, allows for the registration of a generic product even while a patent is active for such a medicine. This is consistent with the Trade- Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, Trips, agreement. It’s an opportunity for local manufacturers to submit dossiers of the generic medicine even before the patent expires. This approach allows manufacturers to have their dossier registered before that patent. At the point of patent expiry,



then the generic manufacturer can then launch their products avoiding unnecessary delays in the launch of the product.



The media reports have recently reported that there are over


150 blockbuster medicines that will face a patent cliff over the next 10 years. This provides opportunities for several medicines that have a significant benefit to be accessed at a much more affordable price. This is also very good news for National Health Insurance, NHI, because here we are looking at good quality medicines at a lower cost.



At a recent conference this matter of patent cliff was discussed where opportunities for local manufacturing to benefit from the patent cliff were also identified.



We have also been able to roll out innovative antiretroviral even before the patent expiry through voluntary licensing agreements that have allowed local manufacturers’ early market entry. This has allowed South Africa to roll out the largest antiretroviral programme in the world.



These voluntary licensing agreements have been facilitated by the medicine’s patent pool or bilateral patent agreement with local manufacturers. I thank you.



Mr K I JACOBS: Chair, the ANC-led government plans to establish a state-owned pharmaceutical company. What will be the Minister’s view on how the state-owned pharmaceutical company will assist in curbing the deco modification of essential medicine supply to meet patient and national fiscal imperatives, as per the findings of the presidential health summit report?

Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, the issue of focusing on the quality of medicines which are affordable, which are effective, is an issue that will always be with us all the time.



When the presidential health summit was convened we had the co- operation of those in the industry to ensure that we receive high quality medicines, but at the same time we have to look at all the available mechanisms to ensure that within the country we can have access to such medicines.



So, the SA Health Products Regulatory Authority is looking at clearing the backlog so that we can process as many of the applications for licenses wherein it creates an opportunity for more affordable medicine where there’s more competition and there’s proper monitoring of the quality and efficacy of drugs, so that, ultimately, the drugs are available more as a basis on which we manage health care and then we cannot be compromised t=by the fact that the drugs are completely unaffordable.



So, that process is something that we are going to be engaged in on a continuous basis. Thank you.



Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Sorry, Deputy Speaker, the question will be taken by Mr Singh.



Mr N SINGH: With your permission, hon Deputy Speaker. I’ve been pressing for a long time; something has gone wrong on the front there.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there’s nothing wrong. It’s just that her name came before yours, that’ all. There’s nothing wrong.



Mr N SINGH: Oh, okay. I concede to her beauty before me.



But let me ask my question, hon deputy Speaker.



Hon Minister, a patent cliff is a period – as you correctly said


– reached when a manufacturing company no longer has the sole right to drugs.



Now, up to what extend will local manufacturers benefit? Because I’m informed and it’s sort of common knowledge that there are cartels in South Africa which control the manufacture of medicine. If you look at the cost of medicine sometimes, that you get from countries like India, it’s one-tenth the price of the same medication that is available here at the higher price.



How are we going to encourage the fact that we have more medicine manufacturers in the country and how will traditional medicines play a role in this whole exercise? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, the issue that the hon member is referring to about the patent cliff is just one



possible advantage you can get in terms of manufacturing of new medicines in the form of generics and also with less restriction.



What is the issue which the hon member is referring to which is a difference between us and India, is that the high cost of medicines is actually controlled by what is called the Active pharmaceutical ingredients. In the countries that manufacture their own or often the state is an investor in some of those instances, then they can control the price of medicine because the cost of those very particular molecules is actually within their capacity to control. But if you have to export it to other countries you can charge any amount that you want to charge.

And, therefore, South Africa will always have that challenge until we are able to manufacture our own Active pharmaceutical ingredients. And this is an issue which I believe even the state should be able to be ready to go into as a state or even partner with private sector, just to ensure that the supply of these Active pharmaceutical ingredients is within the country so no one can actually hold us at ransom with high prices. That’s what



happened in India, they have several of these pharmaceuticals that are doing that.



When it comes to the issue of traditional medicine, let me talk about just two aspects of it: the one area you’re dealing with, you probably referring to the aloe vera aloeveric medicine, now, that is actually traditional medicine of a herbal origin coming from India. A lot of it is coming into South Africa because there are lots of clients who are using that. That area is largely accepted as they are from India but in South Africa we are still doing lots of research on herbal medication to look at the medicinal components of those medicines. And that is something that we have to invest a lot more going to the future so as to ensure the safety of all our people.



What is really a future that we need to invest in is how to convert all of those medicines which are from traditional base herbs to medicinal products that can be used? Like we do with all the various other medicines. [Time expired.] That is something that we have to work for the future. Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh, I want to draw your attention to your two questions. You see, the Minister had to have 14 seconds additionally to respond to your second question. If you had finished at your first question, he would have done it in the allocated minutes.



All of you members, you know the rule, you always exceed them. And so, please stay with the rules.



Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, the question will be taken by hon Shembeni.



Mr H A SHEMBENI: Hon Minister, to ensure sustainable production and the supply of medicine in the country we need to ensure that a continued availability is not dependent on private manufacturing of medicine. For this reason, we have proposed that the state should have its own state pharmaceutical company to produce and distribute medicine at affordable rates to public health institutions. Would your department support the establishment of state pharmaceutical company? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, in term of what we have, evidence available to us, it is the investment in the production of – what I’ve called – Active pharmaceutical ingredients. That is where the cost of medication needs to be looked.



In terms of looking at how to achieve more affordable medicine that hon Singh spoke about, you will probably need beyond the question of Active pharmaceutical ingredients, you need a legal framework that allows early licensing so that various companies can manufacture early. Once you have got that open and you have got good competition at that level, you may be able to get better prices.



Now, there has always been a big debate from the point of view of Treasury in terms of the involvement of the Department of Health in direct participation of manufacturing of drugs or of some products. And that has really been an issue of the department should not be part of a regulator, a user and player at the same time. So, there are those issues that we have to deal with in terms of our current legislation.



But in terms of needing to get medication t more affordable prices, there are many ways of being able to do that. We have assigned SAHPRA to be able to look into that matter and give us a kind of strategy that will open up South Africa to be a proper pharmaceutical manufacturing hub at the same time ensuring that we have got more affordable medicine. Thank you.



Ms S GWARUBE: Hon Minister, you’ve now effectively confirmed that your department would be open to establishing some kind of state-owned pharmaceutical company. But what I would want to understand is considering the fact that we have seen state-owned entities, SOEs, in South Africa being riddled by mass corruption, crippling debt, severe mismanagement, it is clear that this government has no capacity nor political will to run successful and profitable state-owned entities. That would end up just simply being a looting device.



Are you prepared, despite the overwhelming poor record of SOEs, to establish a state-owned pharmaceutical company? If so, why? And what are the plans in the pipeline?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I have said it is an area that state investment can be recommended when we talk about the Active pharmaceutical ingredients. That is what is causing the competitive edge between South Africa and all other countries, that’s what I’m saying. I haven’t said there’s any specific plan for that, I have said that that’s the correct way that we would support, and that such investment should be done.



I’ve also said that the SA Health Products Regulatory Authority is working on a strategy of how to make sure the medicines are affordable and are cost-effective.



Now, I’ve also indicated that there’s an issue with Treasury with how the Department of Health can participate in the level of manufacturing because of it being a procurer of the goods, the regulator and at the same time an investor. That is what we have said.



But if there should be any space within which there could be an opportunity for a state investment, that I would not have any objections to because all the countries that have had an



advantage over South Africa are countries that have had their own internal capacity to manufacture Active pharmaceutical ingredients.



The issues of corruption, I think we all agree here that we must fight corruption, we cannot condone that.



The issues of how the various state-owned entities – you can shake your head hon member – we don’t want to beat about the bush, it is not acceptable and that I something that we have to work upon.



So, I think we mixing these issues unnecessarily because the question is: How do you make South Africa to be able to manage to get better prices for medicine? That issue we would have to fight to make sure that at the end, South Africa is able to achieve such. And that will mean that we have to look into the strategy that our regulator has got to be giving us; and, therefore, what it will take we’ll recommend that it needs to be looked at.



It’s not more about us wanting to get involved in the investment but it’s more about if it is what will help us to get the prices fixed properly, then of course, there’s no reason why not. [Time expired.]



But at the end of it the question is more on the Active pharmaceutical ingredients, that’s what we’re talking about.



Question: 89


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The question asked by the hon member refers to the Health Compact. The social health compact recommendations were summarised into the nine pillars relating to the key elements of the health care system. It refers to the human resources, medicine supply, infrastructure, private sector engagement, improvement of the quality of the primary health care services, public sector financial management and development of information systems. For each of these areas, there are clear deliverables with targets which has been reflected in the department’s annual performance plans either at national or provincial level.



The department has started with the implementation of these plans. On the human resources, the Ministerial task team was established and the human resources for health strategy is being finalised which incorporates a number of human resource issues raised in the compact. This team presented in the National Health Council about three weeks ago. There is reorganisation of health organogram at provincial and national levels to reprioritise the filling of critical posts and to shift resources for service delivery at the front end.



The shortages with regard to the critical staff and statutory posts to a combined total of 3133 were filled using the stimulus package that members asked about earlier. These posts included critical posts for doctors, nurses, allied health professionals as well as support staff which were 2638 posts in total and statutory posts for interns amounted to 495.



On medicine supply, one of the key factors affecting the availability of medicine is that the provinces do not budget adequately to ensure that there are funds available to pay suppliers. We have finalised our calculations for the budgets



required by each province and we will ringfence those funds to protect the medicine budget. The Department of Health at national level has supported provinces to ensure sustainable availability of medicine. The support was in the form of the electronic stock management system. It was implemented in hospitals such as Rx solution.



The department has also procured the necessary hardware on behalf of the provinces to support the automation of the medicine supply chain, enabling to ensure better stock management. We have procured 1297 computers, 1500 label and multi function printers. The support continues this financial year as well. We have further established what is called National Surveillance Centre, which receives data from facility based system, such as stock visibility system which was developed to monitor stock at the hand of the primary healthcare data from electronic stock management, such as Rx solution mostly form hospitals and large community centres.



More recently data received from what we call the National Department of Health’s Central Chronic Medicine Dispensing and



Distribution, CCMDD service providers, an automated dispensing unit. This just ensures visibility of medicine availability throughout the entire medicine supply chain in the provinces. In addition, we embarked on an initiative to develop supply chain capacity at provincial and national levels which is being done in collaboration with the University of Witwatersrand.



On infrastructure, we have indicated that we have got a team that is working on what we call a ten year plan that we must revamp all our facilities in the horizon of five to seven years. This work is continuing. On financial management, here we have got National Chief Financial Officer’s, CFO Forums which is overseeing the movement of cash and cash flow availability and the structuring of debts and reprioritisation particularly of older debts and filling up the posts in CFO offices, dealing with issues of supply chain and ensuring that we have adequate capacity. Thank you.





Nksz P P DYANTYI: Sekela Somlomo ohloniphekileyo, masibulele kakhulu kuMphathiswa. Sibulela esi santya sithathwe leli sebe



ekulungiseni lo mceli-mngeni wezempilo. Umbuzo wam uthi kuMphathiswa, ingaba singasiqinisekisa na iSizwe soMzantsi Afrika lo makulinganwe kwezempilo (health compact),uzakuphucula ubomi babantu ngokukodwa kwezempilo. Enkosi.





UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Siyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile, siyafisa ukuthi siqinisekise kubo bonke abantu baseNingizimu Afrika ukuthi lolu hlelo lwesivumelwano phakathi koMongameli wezwe, uMnyango Wezempilo kanye nabaphathi bezinhlaka ezihlukene zomphakathi, nosomabhizinisi abezimboni nabasebenzi ukuthi konke lokho kwenziwe ngoba sifisa ukuthi kube khona ukubambisana; sibambisene sonke sizokwenza isiqiniseko sokuthi siyasivuselela isimo sohlelo lwezempilo ukuze lukwazi ukusebenzela wonke umuntu waseNingizimu Afrika. Ngaleyo ndlela wonke umuntu uzibophezele ukuthi ohlakeni noma ohlangothini angakulo uzowenza umsebenzi ozokwenza ukuthi isimo sezempilo sibe ngesingcono kuwo wonke umuntu eNingizimu Afrika njengoba sebevumelene noMongameli.




USOMLOMO WENDLU: Uyabona ngiyahlukanisa.



Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Singh will take up the follow up question.



Mr N SINGH: Sorry the schedule does not seem to be working well hon Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much hon Minister, my question is, one of the compact objectives includes the issue of addressing staff shortages which you have referred to. Hon Minister it is quite disconcerting to learn that the KwaZulu- Natal Department of Health has issued a circular dated 4 September where they aim to suspend the recruitment and employment of foreign health professionals, in particular foreign doctors, where it is not clear whether foreign doctors mean those who come from other countries or South Africans who go and train abroad and come back.



This is going to impact on the success of the compact that you and the hon President signed. What would your view be to this trend of the circular that has been issued by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health? Will you offer some clarity on the matter if you are aware of it hon Minister? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: thank you very much; we will be engaging with Department of Health in the province of KwaZulu-Natal just to understand what the meaning of the circular is. Form our understanding, the main issue that the provinces have been asked to focus on, is that we have a number of community service doctors and interns who have been trained within the system of the department that needed to be prioritised and be placed. That situation is the only aspect that we are aware of, so we will need to find out what is exactly going on in this one.



What I do know is that for any foreign doctor who is in the system that means that at the end of each year there has to be a renewal of the contract where there is authorisation given that some of the people are employed now. The Immigration Legislation always wants evidence that there is no South African suitable for a particular post, then it can be given to someone who is a foreign professional.



It makes it very tricky here because in a number of areas you might find that we are dealing with specialists who are in high need and the categories that are in need. Therefore, we need to



first understand what the province is looking at and what the circular means before we can make a public commitment of a response to it. All which have said in this House is that, we need to make sure that all the doctors who have been trained particularly those who have been on community service must be placed, those who require to work inside the government and we will do so. Those who would have come from the training in Cuba, a number close to 700 that actually needs to be placed amongst the interns.



What the provinces are working on is to look at the availability of these posts. We have also identified additional funds on saving within our own budget to assist the provinces to be able to fund these posts which are critical, in fact if I am not mistaken with the figure, in the past two months we have mobilised close to R800 million which is to support the rest of the provinces to place more and more of the health personnel in various provinces. We are looking into the matter but we will find out and then indicate to the member what it is all about.



Ms N J NOLUTSHUNGU: Thank you Deputy Chair, the stated aim of the Health Compact is to create one health system, where quality care is not determined by one’s financial strength. Hon Minister, you have dealt extensively with the question on understaffing, shortage of medicine and quality assurance. We would like to know in practical terms, how you plan to deal with the issue or the crisis of overburdening of facilities and lack of equipment? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much hon members, firstly, when you talk about shortage of equipment, that issue of equipment is classified as part of the infrastructure. So, where we are talking about maintenance, we are including the maintenance on the equipment. Where we talk about refurbishment and replacement of new facilities, we include in them the issue of equipment. So, it all goes together as a package.



The issue that we are working hard to deal with is the overcrowding of the hospitals. The question that we raised about staffing is about ensuring that you do not have too few members working so that a lot of people end up being delayed because of



the shortage of staff. We are also looking at the creation of patient records so that people do not spend three hours waiting for their card at the outpatient filing system. We need to make sure that it takes a very short time for people to get their records retrieved.



We are also looking at moving some of the medications out of the hospitals, for those who do need to see the doctor, but just need to get their medication so that people can only go to the hospital because they need to not because they want to collect medicine. We also want to contract some of the private general practitioners, as well as some of the district hospital doctors to go out and help to decongest in clinics so that people do not need to go to the hospital just to see the doctor. All of those together, in the next few years you will be able to see that it would have decongested our hospitals. Thank you.



Mrs E R WILSON: Hon Minister, according to pillar one of the Presidential Health Summit Compact, which deals with the human resource plan for health, the department will be lifting the moratorium on filling vacancies in our facilities. There is a



20% of vacancy rate of specialists nationally, and in some provinces like the Eastern Cape the vacancy rate is over 50%. Can you commit that these vacancies will be filled by December 2019, if not, why not?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: We are committed to filling those vacant posts. I am not sure that we can deal with your deadline; it depends on a number of issues. The availability and willingness of the specialists to occupy those posts, some of them are in rural areas, you tend to find people being reluctant to move to some of the rural areas. There are quite a number of processes to that we are trying to work on to ensure that we can attract as many of the doctors as possible. Part of looking at the public-private support is to be able to tap onto available specialists even in the private sector who can support the hospitals so that the services are available even if the posts are not filled, and then you can get sectional doctors. We are giving the responsibility to the provincial departments to do whatever it is that is needed to ensure specialist cover whenever it is needed. I cannot commit onto the date, we actually hope that in the future as we move forward, we will be



able to deal with filling the total establishment of our specialist posts. We cannot give the date as the end of December.



Question 54:




foster care orders that have lapsed since 1 January 2019 due to the North Gauteng High Court matter that issued on 28 November 2017 that deemed all foster care orders valid until 28 November 2019. We are only going to have 8280 orders lapsing in December. Thank you very much Chairperson.



Ms A S ABRAHAMS: Deputy Minister these are not the figures that we have received. In light of the figures that we have received, what is the department’s specific plan to address this crisis and prevent the lapse in payment of foster care grants to those families who are financially dependent there on?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Abrahams you may not like my face. Next time you must look at me and address me. She will hear you. [Laughter] Go ahead hon Deputy Minister.



Mr J W W W JULIUS: Deputy Speaker there’s a convention in the House; it’s a first timer please. Be a bit softer on her. Thank you



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the harder I am, the quicker she will learn. No I don’t accept that. She will be on top of her job quickly and faster. That old tradition doesn’t always work well. But, welcome hon member I’m glad to know that you’re new. Go ahead hon Deputy Minister.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: With regard to the exact plan, firstly we have increased the number of social workers to specifically deal with foster care; secondly we have ensured that the clerk of the court has three months lead time to watch the lapsing of a foster care order; thirdly we have ensured that we have the necessary support that provinces need to ensure that they clear all the bad locks that they have. I need to indicate in terms of the legislation foster care is concurrent function and therefore is implemented by provinces



Mr W W WESSELS: Deputy Speaker to the hon Deputy Minister, is it not true that the department has instructed provinces to address the bad lock manually with regard to foster care versus diverting social workers away from their actual tasks such as addressing crisis or children in immediate crisis and children that are abused and so forth the other tasks of those social workers and are causing another bad lock and another crisis?

What’s the department doing in this regard?





issued such an instruction that says social workers need to leave what they are doing and deal with foster care in terms of clearing the bad lock.



I need to indicate that social workers that deal with foster care and social workers that deal with child protection generally require different set of skills. So, each of the different social workers are doing that which they have studied and specialised in. So, you cannot take a social worker that deals with foster care to do general work because social workers that deal with foster care appear in court and they are



therefore competent in that particular aspect. Thank you very much Deputy Speaker.



Ms J MANGANYE: Deputy Minister, what intervention is being undertaken to address the continuing systematic factor impacting negatively on the foster care program as you have already mentioned some of the steps that you carry on doing?



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I need to indicate that foster care has been one of those headaches for social development. A ministerial committee was appointed and made certain recommendations of which the department is implementing. As we speak we do have a task team that sits every second weak that brings together that brings together different departments. I also need to indicate that foster care is a function that is supported by the Department of Justice because they run the children’s courts and for a child to have an order they need to appear in court.



We have established an interdepartmental task team that’s coordinated and led by ourselves and justice to ensure that we



won’t be experiencing issues of foster care challenges. Secondly, we established a register to call upon families that are willing to participate in the foster care system so that they are bale to be vetted and their competencies as a family be provided by the social workers to minimise the waiting time and as indicated we’ve installed software that gives us three months lead time prior to the foster order lapsing. Thank you very much Deputy Speaker.



Ms D B NGWENYA: Hon Minister, in terms of this foster care bad lock it is sad that the department has hired the services of the social worker veterans. Now, my question is, with the problem that we have of unemployed social workers who have graduated, was it not wise because these social worker veterans are given a stipend, would it not have been wise that you take these social workers who have graduated with the money of the Department of Social Development, DSD, who took them to university, now they are sitting at home doing nothing. Would it not be wise that you take them and give them the stipend that you’re giving to these veteran social workers who are supposed to be at home on pension? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Let me indicate that in terms of the Occupational Specific Dispensation, OSD, which is applicable to social work services, the chamber agreed that for you to be a supervisor, to enable you to supervise any social worker you need to have ten years of experience. That is what the Bargaining Chamber agreed upon.



To ensure that our social workers including the ones that the hon member speaks about that come from school that are new need to be supervised by an experienced supervisor as prescribed by the norms and standards. We needed to recall the social workers who have the requisite experience as per the Bargaining Chamber to ensure that they are able to supervise and we are able to bring on board unemployed social workers because if they come on board without supervisors they would still not be able to perform the function they are required to function.



Therefore, to resolve matters, not only of foster care but of the different reports that need signing off that must go to court, that must go to SAPS, we needed to force as an interim those veterans so that we are able to then engage the relevant



bargaining chambers to actually revisit the OSD agreement and we acknowledge upfront that we do have challenges with unemployed social workers and we are doing our best to accommodate and get them employed. Thank you very much Deputy Speaker



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker, I notice that the Chair of your committee is giving you a one person standing ovation, please tell him to do it quietly next time?



Question 73:


The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, in terms of the information received from the North West Department of Education, it does indicate that indeed, in Ward 29, the nearest school is far and as a result there is a route which has been operational since 2017. The company providing services is Seganeleng Trading and the route is as follows: route one is Makolokwe to Thaba-Morula and 79 learners are transported in one bus. Route two is from Sonop to Thaba-Morula, which is the nearest school, has been provided with two busses. So, indeed the school is far but there is scholar transport to accommodate that.



Mr D F MTHENJANE: The response is noted but we must also make it clear that this is not only a problem that is occurring in the area we mentioned. If you can take time to understand this question, it is also linked to the first question that you responded to; where you said it is a competency of the province. So, here it shows that indeed, there are provinces under proper supervisions... [Interjections.] ... under proper supervisions... [Interjections.] ... You must listen to the question first, stop being tjatjarag [Too forward]. [Interjections.] This is an indication ... [Interjections.] So, the question is Minister, why did it take so long ... [Interjections.]



Ms C C PILANE MAJAKE: Order! Can I rise on a point of order? [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is you point of order?



Ms C C PILANE MAJAKE: Deputy Speaker, its unparliamentary ... [Interjections.] ... for that member to say an hon member is tjatjarag. [Interjections.] Can he please withdraw?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will Rule on it. Hon member, proceed! [Interjections.] Or did you finish?



Mr D F MTHENJANE: There was a point of order so I was not finished. So, the question is, when exactly was the service provider allocated a programme to start? Secondly, what are the cost implications on this matter? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, let me re-read the question to the member. The question says whether she has been informed that the closest secondary or high school in Ward 29, Makolokwe, in Rustenburg, is either 10 or 18 kilometres away and that there is no scholar transport, resulting in many learners, in the specified community, not attending school. If not, what is the position in this regard? If so, what are the relevant details?



I am not sure when the misunderstanding came. I am answering the story of Makolokwe and that is what I gave. But in terms of a broader question, which I have said in the previous question, because indeed these questions are the same, there is



acknowledgement that there are problems with scholar transport. Therefore, together with Treasury, we commissioned this and said; how do we assist provinces to ensure this. I also mentioned in the previous question that tomorrow, in Council of Education Ministers, CEM, we will finally be resolving, because I have to get concurrence with the provinces, on what model we are going to use to deal with the broader scholar transport. But the question is specific and that is why I was answering specifically.



Ms C V KING: Minister, scholar transport policy as you now mentioned five kilometres, and here they mentioned 10 to 18 kilometres. Would you not agree that it warrants that a school be built in that area to cut the costs of scholar transport?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The determination to build a school is also informed by whether it is going to viable. So, I don’t know this community. It might be a small community because I only heard those speaking about less than 200 learners in that area. So, we don’t build a school where we have less than 200 learners. They could be coming from farms so perhaps a school is



not viable. But you are quite correct, if it is a sizeable community, then we encourage provinces to indeed build schools because scholar transport is a bottomless speed, so you pay on and on and ongoing basis. But, if it is unviable, you don’t build a school, you transport learners.



Mr W M THRING: House Chair, transport indeed ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Huh uh! Huh uh! This is the second time you do that. It is the Deputy Speaker.



Mr W M THRING: Deputy Speaker, my apologies. [Laughter.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, it’s not only you. Others are calling me Chairperson; others are calling me Deputy Chairperson. I am just saying ... [Interjections.] ... Let’s go ahead with that. Go ahead! There is a House next door with those appropriate titles. It’s always useful to provide free-civil education. [Interjections.] That’s the purpose of my intervention.



Mr W M THRING: And, while we are busy at the matter of education, the brief lesson is accepted, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, for your graciousness.



Mr W M THRING: Deputy Speaker, the basic role of education is to mould our children into productive, capable and hardworking members of society. To the Minister, the progenitor of Comprehensive Sexuality Education, CSE, Dr Alfred Kinsey, conducted fraudulent research to prove that children were sexual from birth. In table 34 of his book, sexual behaviour in the human male, Kinsey documents the abuse of a number of infants, toddlers and older from five months to 10 year olds, who were sexually abused by paedophiles to induce orgasms that they timed with a stop watch over 24 hours period. Noting that Comprehensive Sexuality Education is to be introduced into the school curriculum in 2020, will the Minister reveal to the parents, the teachers, teacher unions, community organisations and other stakeholders, what the actual content of CSE is. And to inform this House when public meetings will be held to



discuss and inform our communities on the content of Comprehensive Sexuality Education? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: With due respect, the question was about transport and not sex. So, what is going to happen next week in the portfolio committee, we are going to give a comprehensive report about the issue that the member is raising. But for now, we are still talking about transport and we are ready because we agree with him that it is important to talk about sex at some stage in our school curriculum, but not now, we are talking about transport now.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you Minister for answering the question. Thank you very much.



Ms N G ADOONS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I turn to agree with the Minister that today we are dealing with scholar transport and not sex. My follow up question is that, ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon members



Ms N G ADOONS: ... what are the root causes for lack of scholar transport and what consequence management mechanisms will be implemented to prevent a recurrence of non provision in ward 29, Makaloke, in Rustenburg? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, as I have indicated, scholar transport is a provincial competency. What we do as national, is to lay norms and standards. That is why our review was that now that we are aware that there are problems with scholar transport, what is it that we do within our powers as national department to regulate the environment of scholar transport?



For instance, in North West, because we are intervening as section 100 (1)(b), but not necessarily broadly in terms of just consequences around scholar transport. I can give a full report of what interventions we have put in place in the entire province. So, I would not be able to say, in this specific ward now, what is it that we are going to do now but I can brief the committee about what is it that we have done as national



department in terms of section 100 (1)(b), to deal with the issues of scholar transport in the province. Thank you, Chair.



Question 90:


The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: The department has prioritised coach specific training as approved by the International Federations and National Federations for Women and the effects thereof will be visible from 2020. As a result rugby, football and cricket national women’s teams at under 15 and under 17 levels have shown an increase in all provinces as did the number of women coaches and referees. Following the 2017-18 financial year Eminent Persons Group, EPG Report in which women’s position in sport was compared to that of men in

19 sport codes in dashboard format. This indicates that funding continues to be a challenge in women’s sport.



The EPG is in the process of compiling dashboard on women’s position in the 19 sport codes on its own. This will bring sharper focus and a basis for comparison of women in sport annually. The national federations that are part of the EPG are required to outline the programmes aimed at addressing key



findings or shortcomings as identified by EPG. These programmes form part of the business plans that are submitted for the release of annual funding.



In addition the federation signed the agreements wherein they commit to self set targets or barometer targets. These targets form the basis of continuous engagements on the performance of the identified national federations. Thank you, Chair.



Ms R C ADAMS: Hon House Chair, hon Minister appreciating that the Rugby, Football and Cricket National Woman’s Team at under

15 and 17 levels had shown an increase in all provinces including an increase in the number of women coaches and referees, what measures are in place to ensure that woman in rural and township areas are afforded an opportunity to participate and contribute to the increasing levels of women participation in the national teams? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, the mass sport programme, particularly in communities, the grassroots programmes, specifically targeted in women development is going



to be one of the high priorities as we move forward in the sixth administration. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr M W THRING: Hon House Chair, Minister there are hundreds of township schools without proper sport facilities and activities. This has freed up the time of our learners and exposes them to other social ills which are prevalent in our communities. As a result many of our children are excluded from developing or discovering sporting abilities which further increases the lack of transformation in our national sport teams. Hon Minister, has the department had the discussions with the Department of Basic Education to introduce sports back into our schooling system? If that is so, what are the timeframes have been given for this?

Thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, we share your concern on the facilities particularly in the public schools. Of 25 000 schools we have, the former Model C schools seem to be still at the advantage, in so far as that is concerned. The facilities at the local level are mainly provided by the municipalities and provinces. The budget when it comes



broadly into sport is not at the level which will be able to deal with the challenges we have.



I think that your question is well placed and we will continue to work with our provinces and local governments. You will also realise that when it comes to sport, government alone is not going to be able to deal with the massive demand on the ground. That is why we talk more of engaging the private sector. Thank you.



Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: We are not done with the follow up questions on the previous question. Can you please just check that?



The House Chairperson (Mr M L D NTOMBELA): Noted hon member, the least that I have it takes to me what to say. Thank you very much.



Mr E J MARAIS: Chair, apologies, it is actually hon Mhlongo who has pressed his button first.



The House Chairperson (Mr M L D NTOMBELA): I am looking what shows on the screen, hon member.



Mr T W MHLONGO: Hon Chairperson, I am taking the question. It is a mistake by me.





Lo mtshini wam awusebenzi kakuhle.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D NTOMBELA): Hayi ntokaMhlongo, ndiza kuvala amehlo.



Mnu T W MHLONGO: Ndiyabulela kakhulu tata.





Hon Minister, EPG is not working. For the past six years thyis measurement tool has never been working. I wanted to find out the marketing strategy for us to make sure that we support women empowerment and women in sports remains a ...



Mr M GUNGUBELE: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it true that the member’s system is not working?



The House Chairperson (Mr M L D NTOMBELA): Hon member, I will ignore that.



Mr T W MHLONGO: That is why ...





... oyisiwe ukuba abengumeya yinto yokuba uthanda ukubuza izinto ezingekhoyo. [Welewele.]





Hon House Chairperson, I wanted to find out from the Minister how are we going to make sure that we support women’s development and women in sports? What does the department have especially to address issues of funding? For example in Soweto we had a sports academy that is opened but the attendance was very poor. What are we going to do to make sure that supporters or donors are coming to support women in sports? Thank you, Chair.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, I would want you to help me understand your determination of the EPG which is not working. The EPG has been put in place to track transformation. It is a scientific system and not a thumb sucking activity. It cannot happen today. There are targets and barometers put. What we should do id to trace that and respond to them and in that way you can then come to the determination that the EPG is not working.



I have just responded to a question here of the under 15 and under 17 women. You have seen that some of the sporting codes are not where they were before the EPG process. The road is still long but the there are steps which have been taken. As we go forward there is going to be transformation especially because the targets which are there are no longer coming outside of the federations but are self set targets.



The issue of funding, I think is a big problem. Women in sport and sporting codes of women have to do more to prove themselves. We only saw with the Netball South Africa after having gone to



top four of the world. It is only now that some companies in the private sector are showing interest.





Mong N S MATIASE: Ntate Ntombela, ke nahana hore o nlebetse.





Hon Minister, there are three factors that cause further alienation of women in society and it is man hypocrisy, chauvinism and patriarchy. Until man denounce all of these tendencies that would be the day that women shall realise their liberation and freedom. Sporting currently is a very sensitive matter. When are you going to invest in women in sports especially sport at high school and primary levels and ensure that women just like men compete on an equal basis? It is only when women are able to outshine men that we shall sure that liberation of women is possible. Investment on women sports is of paramount importance.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon member, I cannot agree more with you hon member and that gives me comfort and



hope that it means in future you are one of the people who are going to support the budget vote, particularly as it comes to sport. [Laughter.] Without that support from you we are not going to address the fundamental questions which you raised here. Thank you very much.



Question 91:


The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon Malomane, the broadcast of sports events is regulated by Sport Broadcasting Services Regulations. In December 2018, the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, published the draft Sport Broadcasting Services Regulations to amend broadcast services regulation of 2010. In order to ensure a long-term sustainable broadcast solution regarding sport broadcast rights, Icasa in consultation with the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies conducted public hearings so that it can undertake amendments to the Sport Broadcasting Services Regulations of 2010 and concluded the public hearings process in May 2019.



The process of further consultation analysing and finalising the input is still in progress as provided by the Act. The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa will communicate with the two Ministries, the Ministry of Sport, Arts and Culture and the Ministry of Communications and Digital Technologies prior to publishing the final regulations. Thank you, Chair.



Ms V P MALOMANE: Thank you hon Chair. Let me first appreciate the hon Minister in the progress made in finding a sustainable and long-term solution to the SABC broadcasting Premier Soccer League matches.





Siyabonga Nyambose ngoba nalaba abasemakaya bakhonile ukuthi balibone ibhola, nabangakhoni ukulibuka kumabonakude ...





 ... on the radio station could continue listening to the radio station. But my follow-up question Nyambose is: What is the expected impact of the amendments to the Sport Broadcasting



Services Regulations of 2010 on the sustainable and long-term towards SABC broadcasting Premier Soccer League matches?





... ngoba ayasinceda emakhaya Nyambose. Ngiyabonga.





The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon member for your kind words but let me say that the unblocking of the blackout in sport broadcast was a joint effort of all the players in the sporting area. As a result we reached the point. And I must thank all the stakeholders who participated to ensure that millions of our people in their communities, in rural areas, in townships are able to watch their beloved sport in South Africa which is football.



The everlasting impact Chair would be us having and seeing an active and sporting nation because sport has this capacity of having everybody in society participating in it. And this is the aim of government to ensure that all of us, whether it is sport or recreation – but it is some sort of activity as human being



we are involved here. This for us is going o be the output. Thank you very much.



Ms V VAN DYK: Take us into your confidence, Minister, and tell us why millions of people were denied the opportunity to watch their favourite sport in the first place and what repercussions will the individuals involved in the shocking state of affairs face?



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon member. I wish I knew, but I don’t. I do not know because as I said there are different role players. That is when you see public and private interests colliding and as a result creating its own victims - which happens to be the masses of the people out there. That collision has been at the basis of what led to the blackouts. Nevertheless we are past that issue and we are now here and people are watching. We should ensure that that is not repeated. One of the things we emphasised and made sure that it happens is that we are not dealing with a problem only here for now, but for the coming five years. Thank you very much.





Mnu K P SITHOLE: Mangibonge kakhulu Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe kube nokukhala okukhulu emphakathini ngesimo sokuthi abantu abakwazanga ukubona imidlalo ebebekade befisa ukuyibona ngenxa yezivumelwano ebezingekho kahle phakathi kwaSABC no-PSL. Ngizama manje ukubheka ukuthi uNgqongqoshe kusukela manje ukuya phambili zikhona yini izindlela zokuthi aqaphe noma ahlole isivumelwano esikhona manje ukuze kusasa kungenzeki okwenzeke manje. Ngiyathokoza.





siyasizwa isikhalo njengoba usibeka, besisizwile nasekuqaleni. Yingakho sathi asingenelele. Ekungeneleleni ke njengoba sengishilo ekuqaleni, sithe akungabi isivumelwano esenzeka manje emveni konyaka bese sibuyela emuva la ebekade sikhona. Yingakho siye savumelana ukuthi ake singakhulumi ngendaba yesivumelwano kuphele iminyaka ize ibe mihlanu, sekuyobonakala emveni kwalokho. Yileyo ndlela ke esizokwazi ukubheka ngayo ukuthi bayakwenza lokhu esivumelane ngakho ukuthi abantu bakithi bangahlupheki. Yiphuzu elibalulekile lelo olishoyo. Le emakhaya abanye abantu abanawo nomabonakude, balalela imisakazo yabo.



Manje uma uqeda lokhu abakuthandayo emsakazweni uzokuqeda futhi nakomabonakude kuba yinkinga enkulu ke leyo. Ngakho ke siyalijabulela ithuba esikulona njengamanje sifuna lokhu kuqhubeke bajabule abantu bakithi. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Mente?



Mr V PAMBO: House Chairperson, I will take the question. Minister, the way you are speaking suggests a laissez-faire approach to it. I don’t think you appreciate the harm you have caused to our people with these blackouts. I think you must understand that there are weekends and weekdays where our people have not been able to watch soccer. They are not able to watch DSTv, yet you speak as if it’s a by the way situation. Can you please give it the density and gravity that it deserves? [Interjections.] Can you please apologise for what happened? Can you stand up and apologise, and explain in detail what happened? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member?



Mr V PAMBO: Don’t say it just happened. Speak and speak with details please! [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member? [Inaudible.] Hon member, may I advise that ... Let’s pose questions in such a way that the Ministers are able to respond, and in our questions ... [Interjections.] ... I’m not yet through, hon Mente. In our questions, let us try to be respectful to other members of the House. [Interjections.] Hon Minister?



Mr V PAMBO: Sorry, Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did not recognise you, sir.



Mr V PAMBO: You are pronouncing on my submission. [Interjections.] You are pronouncing on my submission. I must call you to order ... [Interjections.] ... because you are doing



two things ... about what you are doing now. You are doing two things. Firstly, you are saying I’m being disrespectful, which I was not. By the way, I was not being disrespectful, and if you don’t understand the question don’t assume that he doesn’t understand the question. You are not in his mind.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member ... you continue the way you are I will switch off ...



Mr V PAMBO: Allow him to speak, and only then can you come in.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will switch off your microphone if you continue that way.





order, hon House Chairperson ... on a point of order. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can we treat this House with the respect that it deserves? Hon member, why are you rising?





House Chairperson, my point of order is that the hon member is misleading the House by saying that the Minister’s action is harming our people out there. That is a misleading statement. He should have asked ... [Interjections.] He should have asked his follow-up question, not make that statement. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, ...



Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): May I respond just before you do. Thank you, hon member, for having raised that, but I would not like to judge on the accuracy of the member’s remarks. We will rather use other mechanisms available to other members to address that.



I also want to address the hon member there. Hon member, it is a condition that we do not use words that are disrespectful in our questions. [Interjections.] Let us address each other in a respectful manner. [Interjections.]



Ms N V MENTE: Chair, on a point of order: ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can you sit down? I am addressing another member. Can you sit down? I have made a request and I request that it should be observed. As we pose questions, we should be respectful to each other.



Mr V PAMBO: Chairperson, I think your tone ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did not recognise you, hon member. Can you please sit down?



Ms N V MENTE: Chair, on a point of order: Let me address you. Number one, ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): On which Rule are you addressing me?



Ms N V MENTE: On Rule 92. You first spoke and you acted as if you are in the mind of the Minister. The member over here was afforded an opportunity to ask a question. He asked a question.



Number two, you are implicating that he has uttered words that are not parliamentary. We want to know which ones. Number three, let me address the Deputy Chief Whip.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I did not give you the right to do that.



Ms N V MENTE: If you appreciate social cohesion, you will understand what harm the absence of sport, especially soccer on TV, did to our people. You do not appreciate how black people suffer. That is your problem. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, we have a duty in this House to respect the decorum of the House. The manner in which some of us go about it, is not correct. Where were we?



Ms E N NTLANGWINI Hon Chairperson, my hand was up. You look to me, but you don’t want to note me. [Interjections.] You said that the hon Pambo was disrespectful. I am avoiding a situation for you to come to this House again like you did yesterday with



your tail between your legs and apologise again for a wrong ruling about a word that was disrespectful, that the hon Pambo has used. [Interjections.] Which word? You are doing the wrong thing again. You will come back here with your tail between your legs. You are doing it again.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members!



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, on a point of order: The statement just made by the hon member that you will come back with you tail between your legs is unparliamentary, because we don’t have animals in this House, we have human beings. [Interjections.] So, it was a good thing for you to make that ruling on the issue of the mini plenary yesterday. Thank you.



Mr V PAMBO: It is called a metaphor. It is a metaphor; it is not an insult. It is a figure of speech.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, order, please! [Interjections.] Hon members, we should refrain from



referring to members in the manner in which the member of the EFF has just done. It is unparliamentary, because that infers that ... [Interjections.] That infers that any member who is called that name, is that animal. [Interjections.] Hon members! It is unparliamentary. That is the ruling. I have ruled on that. It is unparliamentary. If you are not happy with that, you know the processes that you should follow. Hon member, please, sit down. I want to continue.



Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: If everything in this House would be unparliamentary, it would impede on our freedom of speech in this House. When they say, with your tail between your legs, it is a figure of speech. It is a metaphor.

You cannot say that it is unparliamentary. No animal was mentioned. Can we please have a change in the seat, so that we can proceed? Since you came to that seat, you have been messing up the whole process.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Members, thank you very much.



Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can I just address this member? Hon members, we have the right to speak. We have that right but we must always know that that right is also subject to the Rules of the House. That you should take into consideration. Thank you very much.



Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, you have made a ruling. The Rules say that when you make a ruling, we must accept the ruling. We don’t debate a ruling of the Chair. If you are unhappy about a ruling, there are processes in terms of our Rules where we can take this up in the Rules Committee. We set aside three hours to call the executive to account and we have 20 minutes or so now on points of order.



My appeal is that we get on with holding the executive to account, so that they can answer questions. If they don’t do that, then we also take umbrage with that. So, my appeal is that we proceed with the Minister answering the follow-up question.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, hon Pambo is raising an important matter. He is not the first one to raise such a matter. Others have raised the very same matter. I think that what he is raising is misdirected, because no government, no Department of Sports, Arts and Culture has any contract with anybody in the sporting arena. It is stakeholders in the sporting arena that had the contract. Our responsibility was to intervene and we intervened. We apologised to nobody about that. We will never apologise to anybody; not to you, not to anybody. We intervened. Thank you.



Question 92:


The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much Chair, Outcome 14 sets out five long-term nation-building goals for South Africa. What is key for the sports sector is the promotion of social cohesion across society through increased interaction across race, class and gender. Therefore, it is without question that the National Development Plan, NDP, and the sectoral national sports and recreation plan that are aligned to NDP recognise sport as a way to foster nation- building and social cohesion.



To give expression to the visions of these plans over the medium-term, the department intends to continue broadening the participation base in sport. The department will therefore continue to work for transformation in the sports fraternity by ensuring equitable access, development and excellence at all levels thereby improving social cohesion, nation-building and the improving the quality of life of all South Africans.



The plan reminds us that, I quote:



No country can expect to achieve and sustain success at the elite level without a strong participation base in the community, because that is the beginning for every champion.



It is therefore, not by accident that the greater part of our budget is allocated to active nation programme. This programme provides mass participation opportunities and participants from different walks of life. Being a winning nation has very favourable spin-offs for nation-building and social cohesion.

Therefore, the department’s daily work contributes directly



towards the achievement of this goal of social cohesion. This is because the work of the department is about bringing people from different sectors and democratic profiles together to share common spaces and experiences to ensure that physical activity and sport becomes a vehicle for social cohesion and nation- building. Thank you very much.



Mr J B MAMOBOLO: Hon Chairperson, I will be doing a follow up question.





Ke a leboga Tona ya Dipapadi, Bokgabo le Setšo, o tloga o bereka Nyambose, tšwela pele ka go šoma, ntate.





My follow up question is that: How does the department measure the impact made by the programmes to ensure that they are truly vehicles of social cohesion? Thank you, sir.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon member, when we as a nation come together because our athletes both men



and women have proven themselves in the field of play that theirs is a winning goal. If they are winning, all of us as citizens derive joy from that. They boost the morale and the confidence of society. In that way, we measure our social cohesion by the way we are able to interact and share spaces across race, colour, and creed and so on. That’s how we see this as an important tool to foster cohesion on our nation.



Ms H JORDAAN: Thank you House Chair, hon Minister, how can the department promote social cohesion through physical activities and sports while facilities under municipal control such as the Frikkie Cronje Stadium in Wesselsbron, Loubser Park Stadium in Kroonstad and many more are completely dilapidated? I know you made mention of municipal sporting facilities but what is the department doing to assist municipalities to ensure that these community assets are maintained and functional in order for the department’s programmes to succeed? If the department is not actively engaged with regards to this, why not? I thank you.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon member, there is something called Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG.



With the department at a national level, we transfer up to 80% of the department’s budget to the provinces so that facilities and everything else are achieved. Hon member, you would agree

... and I am recruiting you now ... that for this department to play this huge responsibility of social cohesion and nation- building really needs to be supported from yourselves here as Members of Parliament to ensure that indeed the demand ... because you are raising practical areas where you have seen some of the gaps within the facilities and sports in general and the needs for people ... All I can say to you is that; with whatever the department has, it would be a good thing for all of us to try and get other people on board. The public-private partnership becomes very important because as I said, the budget that government has within the fiscus is not going to be enough. I can’t say it in any other way. Thank you very much for your question.





Mna J B MAMABOLO: Aowa, e kwagetše gabotse Modulasetulo, o araba ka mokgwa woo re kgotsofalago. Re a leboga. [Legoswi.]





Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, in 2010, hon Minister, South Africa hosted the Fifa Soccer World Cup and for that brief moment, soccer brought social cohesion as the nation was united behind the event and our national team Bafana Bafana. I want to know whether the Minister has a long-term plan or strategy with reference to the economic goals by the President’s Sona of promoting tourism, creating youth orientated jobs, to use the development of sports to drive diversification in new development, economic upliftment, transformation and social cohesion, if so, what are the relevant details? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you hon Mondise, the point about 2010 Fifa World Cup actually showed us as you are saying that this is one area; if used properly, can forge unity in our society. You would also recall that before that, there was Rugby World Cup in 1995 ... In all these instances; we have seen people showing their affinity to their country; to the signs and symbols of their country. Even today, the Springboks



are in Japan. They will need the support of all of us in South Africa to ensure that they win.



On the issue of economic growth, we took heed of the seven priorities mentioned by the President during Sona which we had. You touched on the key one – on economic growth and jobs – but you also spoke about tourism. Sport in particular and arts in general is one instrument which works effectively in other countries for tourism because people do not go to other countries for buildings primarily; they go to see other people, cultures and sharing other cultures with people. Here in South Africa, for instance ... [Interjections.]



Ms A M SIWISA: Thank you House Chairperson, my question Minister would be: How you possibly use sports and social cohesion when sporting codes such rugby and cricket are still dominated by whites who actively block the transformation of sports in this country? [Interjections.] [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much Chair ... [Interjections.] and thanks hon member for your



question, what you said is true that transformation has not permeated through all the sporting codes but I can tell you that since the adoption ... Can you listen? ... of the charter, there are clear plans and the barometer to measure each and every step of transformation. Over and above that, national federations have been given targets and most of those targets are self- imposed from themselves. We see the graph of people going forward. We said that it is well and good to have a law and we also need to enforce that that there should be penalties when people can’t even achieve the targets they have set for themselves. That process is continuing.



The Eminent Persons’ Group’s, EPG, task is particularly on that to monitor and evaluate. We get reports each and every year now and we are acting on them as we go forward. I can tell you, hon member, that with the plan in place under the watch of the EPG, there is ... as they say in the EPG ... light at the end of the transformation tunnel. Thank you.



Question 62:





LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Mme Tarabella-Marchesi, ka kgwedi ya Pherekgong, selemong sa kete pedi leshome le metso e robedi, barutuwa ba ne ba le teng dikolong tsa rona, ba ne ba le dikete tse makgolo a tsheletseng, dikete tse nne le metso e meraro, makgolo a robedi le metso e mmedi.



Mrs N I TARABELLA-MARCHESI: Minister, that number is quite alarming and specifically if you look at 74 743 learners who wrote the multiple examination opportunity. Would you say Minister that your progression policy especially the multiple examination policy, is failing dismally because it has been used by provinces. Instead of provinces using it to educate our learners, to ensure that they are ready to join the job market, they use that policy to ensure that there is PR for good matric results and therefore, relegating our learners to the ranks of unemployment instead of ensuring that they are getting education. Also, could that be ultimately the reason that you decided to abandon that policy? [Applause.]






LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Tjhe, ha se nnete hore e hlolehile ka botlalo. Tsietsi e teng ke hore ha re ne re sa ngodise dihlahlobo tseo, re le lefapha ekabe e le hore dipoelo tsa rona di hodimo ho feta ha jwale. Empa ka hobane re ile ra re bana ba tsietsing ba sa kgoneng ho sebetsa hantle re ba ise pele re ba tshehetse, e ile ya etsa hore le dipoelo tsa rona di be tlase.



Ha nagata ha re ne re ka… ha ka sheba diphetho tsa rona, ha ka sheba moo e leng bana ba pasitseng feela, dipoelo di hodimo.

Selemo se fitileng re ka be bile le dikgolo tse fetang dipersente tse mashome a robedi. Empa ka hobane re ile ra sututsa bana ba tsielehileng hore ba ngole, dipoelo di bile morao. Jwale ha se nnete hore re fetotse lesedi la setjhaba mabapi le taba ena.



Tsietsi e teng e etsang hore re fetole molao oo, ke hore ha ngata bana ha ba ngotse palo e itseng ya dithuto, ha batle ho tlo qetella. Ke ka hoo re bonang hore re e ntshe hobane ha e ba thuse ka tsela eo re ne re tshepile ka teng. Ke a leboha.



Mr W M THRING: Deputy Speaker, I hope that the Minister has to couch my question in such a way couch it that she answers it. Minister, there is a huge attrition rate from grade one to grade

12. And there are many reasons for this attrition. One of the reasons has to deal with inadequate infrastructure. Recently, the case of Michael Komape who drowned in the pit latrine as a result of inadequate infrastructure is a case in point. So what is progress made in eradicating pit toilets in our schools and the proposed timeline to ensure that our children has access to safe sanitation services, thereby increasing their chances of being enrolled for grade 12 one day? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the member is not accurate. While we agree with him that our drop our rate after the basic education part which is from grade one to 9 is quite alarming and disturbing. But as a country, we boast that we have almost universal environment at the basic education level. W start experiencing challenges when it goes to grade 10 to 12.

So, the falling of children in pit latrines has nothing to do with the fact that we lose more than 30% of learners between grade 10 and 12. And, we have done an investigation with Stats



SA to try and understand what the causes for those high dropout rates are at that FET phase. Amongst others, what has come out of our studies is problems of parenting which has much more to do with the violence, if I can say that, because young people by the time they are in grade 9, they are teenagers and if they don’t have strong parental support, they do what they want. But the other major problem, which is our concern and we have picked up and we acknowledge it is the poor foundation that by the time they go to FET phase, they are not coping. So, the Komape story is unlinked because at that level, we have full registration.

So, the problems are different but we acknowledge them and if we had time, I would say what the interventions we are doing are.

Part of the interventions we are doing was to look at their progression policy to see if indeed we can encourage more learners to study. We have agreed in this term also is to ramp up at the foundation phase because it is a deficit that children grow up in the system which make it difficult for them to finish at the FET phase. That is the answer and as I said, if we had time I would explain fully what the interventions are but I agree with the member that there is a problem of dropout but not at the Komape level but at the FET phase.



Ms L F TITO: Minister, of the group of learners that have enrolled for grade 12 last year, do you know how many of them have dropped out of school? I am only taking about the grade 12. If you do, have you investigated thoroughly what the root causes of the high dropout rate of them and what have you done to prevent those kids from dropping out of school? Thank you.





LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO: Nna ne ke re ke arabile ka Senyesemane mme kere re utlwane hore ke re, mohlomong e re ke e hlalose ka Sesotho. Nka se kgone ho tjho hore ba selemo se fitileng sa 2018 ba weleng ba wetse eng. Ke re seo re se amohelang, ke hore barutuwa ba rona ha ba fihla ho sehlopha sa borobong ho ya ho sa leshome le metso e mmedi ba wa ka bongata, haholo-holo sehlopheng sa leshome le sa leshome le motso o le mong.



Re nkile mehato e fapaneng ho ka thusa hore re bone ho re na re ka se ba tsware sistiming na. Re entse makala a mararo a thuto hobane ha se ngwana e mong le e mong a batlang ho tswela pele ka thutu ka kakaretso. Bana ba bang ba hloka hore ba ye thutong ya



mesebetsi ya setekgeniki, ba bang ba hloka ho ya thutong ya mesebetsi ka ho fapana, jwale, ke mehato e fapaneng eo re e nkileng ho bontsha hore re ka tshehetsa bana hore ba qete dikolo. Ke a leboha



Mr E K SIWELA: Hon Minister, considering the fact that over the years there has been an improvement in the outcome of grade 12 results, which is quite commendable, what is the state of readiness of the matric class of 2019 for the end of the year exams?



The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I have a report that has been given to me by the managers which do indicate that we are as ready as it could be. The only thing that I can indicate, for instance, this year, for the first time we are going to write the national senior certificate and those that wrote in June and did not succeed, for the first time we will allow them to write again in December. That is the only difference. But in terms of systems we are as ready as we could be.



Question 74:



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The question number 74 relates to kriel in Mpumalanga with sulfur dioxide emissions. Our response, the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is a custodian of the National Environmental Management: Air Quality Act. Apart from regulating the facilities that emit sulfur dioxide and other gases has developed a strategy for air pollution on dense low income settlement.



The National Department of Health is part of the stakeholders in this regard. The strategy identifies each sector department and roles. The Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries also has air quality monitoring stations which showcase areas of non-compliance. Apart of the strategy of the National Department of Health sees the following structures, highveld priority areas authorities meetings chaired by Environment, Forestry and Fisheries and National Co-ordinating Committee on Residential Air Pollution. These are platforms for engaging with sector department on how communities can be protected from air pollution and strategies to reduce exposure.



The Department of Health has developed a guideline on domestic indoor air quality as a way of reducing indoor pollution within the households. A guideline has been developed to guide municipal health services in addressing indoor air quality. It’s in the process of being approved. Some of the activities are as follows: to create awareness on the indoor air quality risks, provide guidance in undertaking indoor air pollutants, assessments in domestic environment, support indoor air quality monitoring as part of the management plans and programmes, support air quality research studies and also to incorporate behavioural change strategies as potential to reduce indoor air pollution.



Provinces also have a role in this particular act. The Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is currently conducting a scoping study to establish the vulnerability of communities.



The Nkangala District Municipality has the following programmes: the awareness campaigns pollution as a result of sulfur dioxide SO2 and also focus on open cast mines together with the



Department of Mineral Resources and Energy which as well contributes to domestic fuel burning.



The common effect of sulfur dioxide is dioxide toxicity to foetal wellbeing is low birth weight. The Nkangala health District keeps record of birth weight of children. In the past years, there has not been a noticeable increase in the incidents of low birth weight amongst the children born in that area.

Thank you.



Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, my question is to at least to know if you have deployed scientists and specialists into the area to go there and pre-empt the implications of what this pollutant will be in five to 10 years time? Fine, you will not be the government at that time. But I think we will be doing a greatest service to the people of South Africa. If we can see an outbreak and an epidemic coming and we are doing nothing about it today, we will have the same situation we are having now with phylicosis where we are buying people’s lives with R200 000 to R500 000 and they are dying each and every year because of mining. We will have the same



situation in kriel in Mpumalanga if we don’t deal with the situation now. So, at least deploy people and scientists that side to go there and pre-empt what the implication is going to be in 10 years time. We will implement that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: When we talk about monitoring of indoor air quality, that’s scientific. That’s what we have to do. That assessment is something that’s going on. When we say we are talking about monitoring the low birth weight on children, that’s scientific. You want to check if there is already an impact. It doesn’t take 10 years; it takes nine months for a woman to give birth. It’s during pregnancy that the baby can be affected. So, we are monitoring that as well. If there was already an impact, we should be showing it.



The issue of how to monitor is already part of the plans that we have in place. So, that’s what we are dealing with. Awareness is part of the prevention. That’s what we are talking about. The rest of the issues are within the whole process of monitoring.



[Interjections.] Well, let’s have a discussion outside. I don’t think ... [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Mr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to know from the Minister of Health if he could suggest divert from coal electricity to the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy because renewable are affordable and competitive? Nevertheless, we stay with health destroying coal mining and coal generation of electricity. Maybe if the two ministers may put their heads together, that’s my request.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: It’s just a pity, the hon Minister has just walked out to do some other business. But I will share the discussion with him. But let me just say this, firstly, the surveillance on the levels of pollutants in the area is something that we continue to undertake. That surveillance is what the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries would penalise the particular plant that is emitting beyond the limit. That’s within the law.



Secondly, we need to face the fact that, whiles we have to control pollution, contamination that comes from burning of coal for energy production is something that has to be contained in different areas. But it it’s not as easy to switch completely from fossil fuel to renewable for the whole country. It’s not possible. Actually, if you look at the whole programme of energy production, the energy availability curve will indicate to you that the demand for the country is at a point before most of the renewable, solar and wind are able to kick in. So, you need to balance it. We have said we have an integrated energy resource plan that deals with the whole totality. It’s a future seek approach. It’s not something that we can wish away now.

Unfortunately, the base of our energy production is coal. So, we just need to make sure that we control pollution. Thank you.



Mr E R WILSON: Thank you. In light of the report around the sulfur dioxide emissions in kriel, has the department done an extensive study into other areas in the country in conjunction with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries? Can you give us an idea of what the findings were and what measures



had been put in place to counter health implications in those areas too, please?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I am sure the hon member is aware that that kind of response will require researched answers. I do not have those answers. The only issue I can indicate is that municipalities have a role in monitoring the air quality issues and contamination. The Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries does the same. Those reports do not reside in the Department of Health as such. The only is when you have hazardous substances where there are such intense contamination that the Department of Health will move into those areas to conduct studies and come up with reports. The rest of the reports will come in a situation where a broad number of departments will then be involved in participating.



But on a day to day basis, a lot of work is to be done by municipalities. At that level, I don’t have any kind of report report of what is happening in the whole country. But if there is a direct question, we can research that and make the information available.



Ms A GELA: Thank you, hon Chair.





Mandincome umsebenzi omhle owenziwa liSebe lezeMpilo. Apho ndisuka khona kukho ikliniki eyakhiwayo entle, kwaye esemgangathweni ophezulu ezakusebenza iiyure ezingama-24, eyakhiwa ngulo rhulumente we-ANC. [Kwaqhwatywa]





I am from the same area, same space, same town with DA member, hon Julius. He knows about the development of the clinic in Mohlakeng. Chairperson, there is also a beautiful and ideal clinic built in Randburg. The ANC government is really responding to the issues of the community regarding the issue of health.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chair.





Nksz A GELA: Andikho apho Sihlalo.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Like the question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): thank you, hon member?



Ms A GELA: Can I proceed, Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, the time is up, hon member. [Applause.]





UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngifisa ukuzwakalisa ukubonga okukhulu ngamazwi avela kuleli lungu elihloniphekile lokuveza ukuthi mkhulu umsebenzi owenziwayo wokusondeza isimo sezempilo sibengcono emphakathini. [Ihlombe.] Ngingaqhubeka nje ngisho ukuthi ngoLwesibili ngomhlaka 16 uMongameli uya endaweni yase OR Tambo District ukuyovula enye yamakliniki yaseLusikisiki. [Ihlombe.] Lapho amakliniki akhiwe ayisishiyagalombili azobe ezosiza umphakathi. Ngakho ke into eniyibonayo ngakubo akuyona ingqayizivele yenzeka zonke izindawo.



Mr V PAMBO: Point of order, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon member? Hon Minister, there is a point of order.



Mr V PAMBO: Chairperson, firstly, when we were asking questions here, you said that I must ask a specific question. Now, there is a member who stood up there praising the Minister. The Minister stands up not to answer a question because there is no question. He is not answering any question. But you are sleeping there. You allow this to happen. Stop marketing the ANC. We didn’t come here to listen to a rally of the ANC. We didn’t come for a rally here.



Ms J TSHABALALA: Can you switch off the mic, please? Chair, order! I rise on a point of order, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I will request you again, humbly so, to refrain from using interrogatory language.



Ms J TSHABALALA: I rise on a point of order, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, can you continue?



Ms J TSHABALALA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, hon member, why are you rising?



Ms J TSHABALALA: Thanks, Chair. Chair, we are being abused in this House by the EFF. When members stand up and take a mic, they must be recognised. They must state what Rule they are rising on. Members are continuously standing up, speaking and making noise. Secondly, there is no point of order. The member is out of order. [Interjections.] No, no, I am still standing in order. You can’t call for a point of order on top of another point of order. [Interjections.] Yes, I raised my hand for a point of order. This member cannot share. Chairperson, my last point is that, the member cannot say hon member of this House



who is asking a question is hauling and praising. The member is out of order. The hon member must be orderly.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. You have made your point. Hon members? [Interjections.] Order, hon members. [Interjections.] Hon members, we cannot go on like this. [Interjections.] Can you just take your seat? [Interjections.] I will recognise you. [Interjections.] Hon members, can you please behave like adults. Please, stop this kind of behaviour. We cannot go on like this. [Interjections.] Hon members, all the rowdiness that has just happened now has brought us to the end of this. The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies will be printed in Hansard.



The House adjourned at 18:08.






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