Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 17 Nov 2015


No summary available.








The House met at 11:02.


The House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.






(Draft Resolution)


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:


That, in terms of Rule 97(c), Order 1 on the Order Paper stands over until after Order 9 on the Order Paper.


Agreed to.




Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party and African National Congress.


Declarations of vote:

Mrs M R SHINN: Hon House Chairperson, this department lacks political leadership. The Auditor-General said so. It is without its required number of directors-general, DGs, and lacks sound management expertise. It failed to meet 21 of its 29 targets. When Minister Cwele took over 15 months ago, only one out of 60 DG posts was vacant. Now there is only one deputy director-general. The last man standing after the Minister’s absentee management style allowed all conflicts to gut the department’s top echelon.


The department’s annual report only passed muster after much handholding by the Auditor-General who noted regression in the quality submitted financial statements and performance reporting. The department is in critical care. There are six Special Investigating Unit, SIU, investigations into staff shenanigans at its entities awaiting a decision from the President.


The bid evaluations committee being subjected to disciplinary hearings and the suspended DG is going through the mill of an internal disciplinary process after the probe by the Public Service Commission into her abilities.


The Telecommunications and Postal Services Department is charged with spearheading the nation’s digital future through SA Connect. Its immediate target is to spend R200 million by March 2016 - four months away - to connect 1 296 government institutions. This cannot happen. The project is only at technical specification stage and funds are insufficient to do what, it assumes, is the job in hand. This is the same department that forgot to include Broadband Infraco in its budget this year and the state-owned enterprise, SOE, is now dangling in the winds of penury. The SA Post Office because no one had the political will to take the radical steps to save it, it has been taken off its life support and no financial institution will go nearer its begging bowl. Needless to say, neither entity could produce annual report.


This department cannot be trusted to lead South Africa into the digital future. It is failing all our people who want a fair chance to grasp the opportunities offered via an interconnected economy to free themselves from poverty. [Applause.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon House Chairperson, the EFF rejects this budget recommendation review from the Telecommunication and Postal Services Portfolio Committee because it does not fundamentally differ to what we rejected earlier on. So, there is no reason to align ourselves to these demands. But what is important is to take this opportunity of the declaration to mention that the department is not doing anything with regards to reducing the costs of communication in our country. [Interjections.]


An HON MALE MEMBER: How do you know?


Mr M Q NDLOVU: For example MTN, Vodacom and all other companies that are within the communication space are ripping our people apart through both airtime and data bundle costs to the extent to which the very idea of communication which must increasingly be taken as a right to communicate is being barred by companies that are greedy and that are out there to make profit and the department is not doing anything.

We recommend that there must be an investigation into the costs of MTN and Vodacom in terms of how they are charging both the airtime and data bundles because they are ripping everyone apart. All South Africans pay unnecessary and inconsistent costs depending on who they are calling and they pay inconsistent costs and the department is not doing anything about it. So, we think there must be an investigation into the cost of communication with regards to both airtime and data bundles and make sure that these companies are punished and they reduce considerably the cost of communication.


Communication is integral both to the education that is taking place in the country to access and to the enhancement itself of freedom of speech. How can you speak if you do not get access to information? The very efforts to make Internet accessible to everybody is being barred by these greedy companies that are out there to make profit out of the right to communicate which as all of us must know and must take as the right for everybody to access. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, the IFP would like to express its grave concern with the rapid decline of the SA Post Office crippled by leadership woes, corruption, mismanagement, and the practice of golden handshakes. It is facing financial ruin this despite the fact that in May this year, the hon the Deputy President assured South Africans and I quote, “We are encouraged by the progress at the SA Post Office.” I do not know what is encouraging and currently going on, obviously the confusion continues to mount on this side of the House.


But the reality is something completely deferent. Two months ago the Post Office management told Parliament that it was losing R1 million a month and made a net loss of R285 million in the first three months of the current financial year. Now, yet another turnaround strategy coupled with government bailout looms. One can live in hope that it won’t be at another case of taxpayer money being thrown into a very deep dark pit.


The department is in Intensive Care Unit, ICU, and faces serious challenges due to high vacancy rates, service delivery challenges, cash flow problems, infighting between senior leadership amongst other woes. Most notably vacancies at senior management level have cost a state of paralyses within the department. Without experienced senior leaders in the form of directors in key programmes, it is virtually impossible for the department to successfully carry out its crucial mandate.


Several key performance areas of the department have been badly affected. Weak leadership has become the bane of this department. The Auditor–General also noted several instances of noncompliance with laws and regulations pertaining to procurement processes, contract management, financial and performance management and so forth. These issues must be resolved without fail as the department is in an absolute state of paralyses, in ICU and in a coma. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, the NFP does not welcome the report of the Portfolio Committee on Telecommunications and Postal Services as tabled here today. The Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services is in crisis. During the period under review, the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services achieved 28% of its planned target at the same time it spend 97,5% of its budget allocation. This ratio of success to expenditure can simply not be accepted.


Another concern we have, is the unacceptable 29,8% underspending in the policy research and the development programme of the department. The lack of clear policy direction is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with this department and within this context it comes as no surprise that there is a very little progress in development. Our digital migration programme is behind schedule and the expected roll out of broadband is becoming a national embarrassment. The NFP suggest that the relevant members of the management be held accountable for nonachievement of targets in their respective areas and we ultimately believe that the Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services should do the honourable thing and resign.


In conclusion, the NFP rejects the report as tabled here today. I thank you.


Ms M T KUBAYI: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, good morning. The report tabled today by the portfolio committee indeed highlights some of the challenges that are experienced by both the department and its entities. I think it is important to note the progress that has been sustained by Sentech, of continuously achieving the clean audit and being able to achieve its targets, it is one of the entities that becomes exemplary and that we continue to urge other entities to look up to it.


Again we note the progress that has been made by Universal Service and Access Agency of SA, Usaasa. It continuously performed in terms of where it was and it has managed to improve its financial management.

The portfolio committee was unable to deal with matters of the SA Post Office together with Broadband Infraco because the reports were not tabled. The Minister requested their postponement for later tabling. So, I am not so sure why members are reflecting on those on what basis.


While we note the challenges in the Post Office, it is important hon members that we should not be misled. There has never been a handshake in the Post Office at all and there has never been any paying out for any official.


But secondly, on issues of cost to communicate, a policy has been passed by the department and it was reflected. I want to urge hon members to support this report because it is explaining what needs to be done and it puts time frames on the issues that need to be responded to by the department and its entities.


Therefore, as part of accountability and ensuring that what would hold the executive accountable to and becomes a reality is for that report to be adopted and matters to be reported to Parliament through the department and the ministry. We did indeed raise our concerns around the stability in the department with the Minister. The Minister has assured us that they are working around the clock to ensure that the stability and management issues are resolved. Thank you very much, House Chair. [Applause.]


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Moved that the Report be adopted.


Division demanded.


House divided.


AYES – 176: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boshoff, H S; Cardo, M J; Cele, B H; Chiloane, T D; Coleman, E M; Davies, R H; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Galo, M P; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Gina, N; Godi, N T; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Holomisa, S P; Hunsinger, C H H; James, W G; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khunou, N P; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B;  Loliwe, F S; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T;  Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Majola, T R; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D;  Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, B S ; Maseko, L M; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Maxegwana, C H M; Mazzone, N W A; Mbhele, Z N; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mkongi, B M; Mmola, M P; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni , D; Mogotsi, V P; Mokgalapa , S; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Motau, S C; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Ollis, I M; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Sibande , M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Terblanche, J F; Tleane, S A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, V; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Vos, J; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Zwane, M J.


NOES – 28: Cebekhulu, R N; Chewane, H C; Dudley, C; Esterhuizen, J A; Hlengwa, M; Hlophe, H O; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Mabika, M S; Matiase, N S; Matlhoko, A M; Matshobeni, A; Mbatha, M S; Mente, N V; Meshoe, K R J; Mhlongo, S P; Mncwabe, S C; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Nkomo, S J; Paulsen, M N; Rawula, T; Shelembe, M L; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sonti, N P; Swart, S N; Van Der Merwe, L L.


Question agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, is not a result of real committee interrogation and scrutiny, with no submission on amounts and shifting of funds and no motivation of these priorities versus the other essential needs expressed.


Die begroting is net 1,13% van die bruto binnelandse produk, BBP, en daar word ernstige tekorte ervaar wat die verdedigingsvermoeë regmatig bevraagteken en ek verwys net na drie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[The budget is only 1,13% of the gross domestic product, GDP, and there are serious shortcomings that legitimately question the defense capabilities. And I am only referring to three.]


With regard to the air force, budgetary constraints have led to inadequate flying hours, which are keeping our aircraft in hangars and compromising the training and quality of our pilots, especially those commanding the VVIP aircraft. Aging fleet is in urgent need of a more efficient replacement and South Africa is lacking efficient airborne early warning systems.


The navy has inadequate patrol capabilities and reduced sea hours are keeping the ships in the docks. These compromise our ability to protect our ocean economy and strengthen our sea defence capabilities.


With regard to peace-keeping, our forces in Africa cannot keep their helicopters flying. They do not have the right equipment to fit the terrain requirements. They are sitting ducks and we cannot help them. I have not even mentioned the inability to address the backlogs of the Military Veterans or the control capabilities or the serious concerns expressed by the Auditor-General.


Die implikasie van die BRRR-aanbevelings is nog meer geld aan menslike hulpbronne wat reeds 54% van die begroting was en geen fondse om die gevegs- en verdedigingsvermoeë van die weermag te verbeter of aan te spreek nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The implication of the BRRR recommendations is that even more money will be spent on human resources which already receives 54% of the budget and no funds will be allocated to improve or address the military and defense capabilities of the army.]


Now we have learned about the new luxury jet for up to R4 billion for number 1. This is shockingly inappropriate and inconsiderate. Maybe the Minister must reveal to Parliament how much money and how many billions of rands are stuck away in this strategic defence account. There is absolutely no reason why we can support this BRRR. I thank you.


Mr S P MHLONGO: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the adoption of the budget review and recommendations of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. The Department of Defence and Military Veterans cannot be considered to be newly established anymore. It has been more than five years since the department was established, yet they are having terrible failure, almost on a daily basis. The failure to build internal capacity is simply the failure of the ANC government.


The Department of Defence and Military Veterans leadership’s inability and lack of management is created with determination because in the midst of all chaos, there is no accountability at all. In 2014, the department submitted their annual report to Parliament very late and received a disclaimer audit outcome in the process. Things got worse in the past financial year. The department failed to finalise its financials, making it almost impossible to know what the department does with the taxpayers’ money.


What is more concerning and appalling is the fact that the funding for this department continues to increase steadily on an annual basis. It is not a surprise that the department has large amounts of irregular and wasteful expenditure, due to noncompliance. In the process, military veterans are left out in the cold, without any form of support, while the department wastes a lot of money.


Again, we call on all people of South Africa to reject the ANC in the 2016 local government elections for its fundamental failures to actually take care of those soldiers who risk their lives and who went into trenches, fighting for the liberation of our people in this country. Thank you very much.


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, the strategic priorities for the period under review include enhancing the SANDF’s landward defence capabilities, job creation, the national youth service and the restructuring and support of the defence industry.


The Defence Force has performed poorly in respect of many of these targets. Skills development within the SANDF requires greater impetuses. One only has to take a look at the number of unmaintained and nonoperational military vehicles to see that the Defence Force is severely lacking in basic skills. When Cuban mechanics are brought in to perform an oil change on a military vehicle, then the alarm bells should start ringing.


The Defence Force must get its house in order. Self-help, self-reliance and ongoing skills development and training must be the order of the day. The Department of Defence and Military Veterans is a dismal failure.


Umnyango ufile nje sesilinde usuku lomngcwabo ... (Translation of isiZulu sentence follows.)


[The department is dysfunctional; we are waiting for the date of its closure ...]


... at the extent to which the financial mismanagement has become the new order of the day in this department, with a total disregard for the PMFA and National Treasury regulations. The opening balances cannot be verified; therefore, the closing balances cannot be verified. The books are upside down. There is absolute chaos and a lack of political will from the department’s leadership to actually sort out those problems.


The department only achieved 20% of its targets set in respect of providing immediate social service, to relieve distress amongst vulnerable veterans, only 33% of its targets set in respect of the provision of comprehensive support services to military veterans and their dependants and 33% of its targets in respect of empowerment programmes. All of the above are a shame on the department and this government and totally unacceptable.


The last time we were forced to accept a 33% pass was when we were force fed that 33% pass for education. We can’t accept that as a reality now.


The total overall performance of the department is at 52% with 28% of the targets set not achieved, but 90% of the budget is spent. So, obviously there is poor management and this is a sad indictment on the failing department. [Time expired.]


Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, hon members, the report tabled in front of us today paints a somewhat bleak picture of the financial and general management of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. While most targets have been met, the department had poorly performed in key strategic areas, including training, battle fitness, the availability of medical stock and certain health care activities.


The department incurred fruitless and wasteful expenditure, amounting to a staggering R1,5 million, which we find totally unacceptable and we wish to see swift action taken against those who authorise such expenditure.


The National Freedom Party is also dismayed at the department for not paying its invoice within the 30-days timeframe. We agree with the portfolio committee that this practice is hurting the small businesses. The financial management of the Military Veterans component of the department is a disgrace, with overspending and underachieving being he norm. Why is it that 21 years after the armed struggle ended, the military veterans have still not been settled and adequately provided for?


In light of the reduced funding, Armaments Corporation, Armscor, will be heavily reliant on its commercialisation strategies. The NFP is in agreement with the portfolio committee that the turnaround strategy at Armscor, is essential to ensure the future of the entity. We are however opposed to the sale of land and equipment by Armscor, as means of generating funds.


In conclusion, despite our concerns, the NFP supports the findings and recommendations of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. Thank you.


Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, we believe that the Minister must do a great deal more to ensure progressive and proactive administration. He must immediately summons senior leaders in the Defence Force Service Commission and demand to know from them why they were allowing slow bureaucratic processes ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, there is really too much noise there. Please, don’t sit with your back towards the Chair. It is difficult to identify you, hon member


Ms D CARTER: ... to frustrate the work of the commission and its operations? If they are not up to managing the commission, they should be kicked out.


The portfolio committee must also hold the Minister fully accountable for the lamentable failures of the commission. Parliament has now learned of the great frustration of pilots because of reducing flying hours. This is indeed problematic. What is the Minister doing about it? Parliament has also now heard of the poor work environment in which professional, technical and scares skilled personnel have to work. Why are the respective managers not being summoned to answer for poor and indifferent management?


We call on the Minister to immediately finalise the South African Defence Force Review Implementation Plan, to address the frustration of soldiers. We don’t want them to start student-style revolt. Commissioners were shocked that no progress was made on their recommendations or those of the interim commission.

Cope is equally concerned that the Military Ombud is not resolving complaints within the 90-day period. There must be no backlog whatsoever. The Ombud’s Office must be characterised by swift response, effectiveness and efficiency.


Cope urges the Minister to get responses to the report from all concerned parties and to make it his personal responsibility to address the slowness, slackness and failures to act on recommendations, backlogs, and inefficiencies. Cope supports the report. I thank you.


Mr M S BOOI: Hon House Chair, hon members, hon Minister, welcome. I think we need to be honest with ourselves, as public representatives and reflect on the state of things in a more progressive manner so that it can help all of us. Definitely, we all agree that there are quite a lot of challenges.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like you to rule if it is parliamentary for the hon Booi to say that we must be honest because it implies that there are members here who are dishonest. If we are going to contest the political economy of dishonesty, I think the House will fall. So, hon Chair, please, rule if it is parliamentary to say members must be honest, which implies that there are people who are dishonest here. We all know, if that is the case, the dishonesty will have to be allocated to where it belongs.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ndlozi, take your seat, please.


Mr M S BOOI: I have not seen you for a long time. Good morning, how are you? What I am really saying with regard to honesty is when we listened to the mini budget that was presented, the fact that the economy is not growing and the fact that it remains low, it has a lot of contributory factors of many different departments. It is their performance and we must be honest in terms of whether there is enough revenue to bolster the kind of the Defence Force. We should be able to put in money to do the review. The review needs money and that is a challenge.


The second part of our challenge is that we cannot create threats. One can only think of activating the air force and think of what role the air force is suppose to play to increase its own time, when there is a threat towards our country and one can define that particular threat. However, if that threat does not exist, it becomes totally difficult to continuously keep the Defence Force more active than what is.


I do agree that there are a lot of challenges when it comes to the internal management of the Defence Force. All of u, as members of the portfolio committee, are applying our minds to resolve some of the challenges ... [Time expired.] ... [Interjections.] If you are not honest.


Division demanded.


House divided.


AYES – 152: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Chiloane, T D; Coleman, E M; Davies, R H; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Esterhuizen, J A; Filtane, M L W; Fubbs, J L; Galo, M P; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gumede, D M; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khunou, N P; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadzi, D P; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Meshoe, K R J; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mogotsi, V P; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndongeni, N; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Shelembe, M L; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Swart, S N; Tleane, S A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Zwane, M J.


NOES – 76: America, D; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Cardo, M J; Chance, R W T; Chewane, H C; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Gana, S M; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlophe, H O; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; James, W G; Jongbloed, Z; Kalyan, S V; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Lotriet, A; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Majola, T R; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matlhoko, A M; Matshobeni, A; Mazzone, N W A; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mhlongo, S P; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mokgalapa, S; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Mulaudzi, T E; Ndlozi, M Q; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Rabotapi, M W; Rawula, T; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Sonti, N P; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Vos, J; Waters, M; Wilson, E R.


Question agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move that the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr R W T CHANCE: House Chairperson, almost exactly a year ago, I spoke at this podium about the excessive time that it takes on the newly formed Department of Small Business Development to organize itself [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members.


Mr R W T CHANCE: ... and begin to do its work. I refer to it and I quote:


As a phantom department, with no financial independence, few resources and contestations in Cabinet about who is responsible for developing small business.


Eighteen months after its birth, the infant department is still struggling to draw breath, with the permanent director-general only appointed in September, it has been along with no clear vision, policy direction or visible achievements? With a 25% staff vacancy rate, and still no permanent Chief Executive Officer, CFO, in place, the department is crippled through lack of capacity.


It was only in April this year that the Department of Public Service and Administration approved its structure or organogram. These and a shoestring budget hardly inspire confidence but the government sees hon Minister Lindiwe Zulu or her department as a game changer South Africa needs to get our economy going. The small business community is longing for her to succeed, but it is yet to see any sign that its high hopes will be met.


Hon Minister Zulu has frankly admitted to the committee her frustration with lack of resources, but that is no excuse for the department’s dismal performance. It has failed to meet any of the four objectives set for itself for the 2014-15 financial year.


The department and its agencies achieved clean audits, which is commendable, but hardly sufficient to make a dent in South Africa’s unacceptably high unemployment rate. Hon Minister Zulu should focus her mind with laser-like precision on creating the conditions for South Africa’s small business sector to thrive. Instead, she is distracted by irrelevancies, such as the President Omar al-Bashir debacle, internal ANC communications issues, and picking fights with opposition Members of Parliament. The Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, is a hard-hitting summary of what has gone wrong in the past year, and what the department needs to become relevant and fulfill its mandate. The DA supports the Report. Thank you.


Vho T E MULAUDZI: Sa EFF ri khou thudzela kule mugaganyagwama hoyu wo no khou ambiwa wo no bva kha Komiti ya Mabindu Maṱuku. Ri khou dovha ra ita khuwelelo uri vhathu vha tshi ya dzikhethoni dza masipala ṅwakani, vha songo khetha ḽihoro ḽa ANC ngauri a ḽi khou tikedza vhoramabindu vhaṱuku na dzikhophorethivi. Ri dovha hafhu ra amba uri komiti yo balelwa u ṱalutshedza nga vhuḓalo uri ikonomi ya Afurika Tshipembe i i khou tshimbilisa hani, zwa sala zwi tshi amba uri zwine komiti ya khou amba zwone a zwi ḓadzi mudzio.


Ri dovha hafhu ra ita khuwelelo ya uri muvhuso u khou kundelwa u tikedza vhoramabindu vhaṱuku na dzikhophorethivi nga nḓila yone. Muvhuso uyu wo dovha hafhu wa kundelwa u badela vhoramabindu vhaṱuku nga tshifhinga musi wo vha ṋea mishumo, zwa sia vhoramabindu vhaṱuku vha tshi khou vala mabindu avho. Dziofisi dza u ṅwalisa vhoramabindu dzoṱhe dzi vha dzi dziḓoroboni khulwane, zwa sia uri vhathu vha tshi ḓiṅwalisela mabindu avho vha fanela u tshimbila lwendo lulapfu vha tshi ya kule vha si na na tshelede.


Ri dovha hafhu ra amba uri hoyu muvhuso wa ANC wo bva fulo ḽa u vhulaha vhoramabindu vhaṱuku na dzikhophorethivi uri dzi songo vhuya dza ya phanḓa ngauri u khou tika vhoramabindu vhahulwane. Ri dovha ra amba zwa uri Vho Zuma vho amba nga 75% ya uri hu rengiwe zwithu zwine zwa vha zwa fhano hayani fhedzi zwe vha vha vha tshi khou amba zwone ri zwi dzhia zwa uri i sokou tou vha phosho fhedzi i si na mudzio. (Translation of Tshivenḓa pharagraphs follows.)


[Mr T E MULAUDZI: The EFF rejects this budget tabled by the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development. We also call upon the people not to vote the ANC in next year’s local government elections because it does not support small businesses and co-operatives. We are also saying that the committee has failed to explain in full how South Africa’s economy is being managed; therefore, what it is saying does not make any sense.


We are also saying that the government is failing completely to support small business owners and co-operatives. This government has failed to pay the small business owners for the work it gave them, and as a result they had no option but to close down their businesses.


All the registration offices for small businesses are located in the cities, people have to travel long distances to go and register their businesses when they don’t even have enough money.


We are also saying that this ANC government is in the mission to destroy small business owners and co-operatives, preventing their prosperity. It supports big business owners only.


Mr Zuma spoke about supporting local businesses by buying 75% of local products only. We view this as just a lip service.]


What is clear from the engagements with the individuals and organizations involved with small businesses even through the committee is the fact that for small business to exist, the government must lead and provide proper foundation. To expect this department to engage retailers when they have failed to guide the rest of the government into supporting small businesses is a wishful list. What is sad is the fact that the department is failing to assist co-operatives and small businesses, but they sit with unspent millions of their budget. More worrying, is the fact that those who want to formalise their businesses are forced to ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time is now expired.


Mr T E MULAUDZI: ... travel long distances. So, we call upon the people not to vote the ANC in next year’s local elections ... [Interjections.]




Mr T E MULAUDZI: ... because they failed to support small businesses and co-operatives.


Ms S J NKOMO: This department is a failure. It could be seen to be in intensive care unit, ICU, under a self-induced comma. There is no other way to say this. It is a prime example of fruitless and wasteful expenditure of taxpayer’s money, which is a pity because under proper leadership and guidance, it could have been a department that greatly assisted the economy in providing much needed support to fledging Small, Medium and Micro-sized Enterprises, SMMEs, which would have had added effect on creating employment and alleviating poverty. This department continued its failure to meet its mandate and demands and that it should be placed under urgent review. This is what the IFP is recommending and necessary interventions need to be implemented.


The department is failing to provide expanded opportunities we historically excluded in vulnerable groups; these are small businesses, and especially our co-operatives. Perhaps, this failure originates from ambiguous crafting of the departmental mission and strategic objectives. In this respect, the mission statement from the department requires greater clarity about the purpose of this department. The lack of impetus regarding the review of legislation, which governs the development small businesses and the possibility of the amendment of the same in order to further assist with the development of the SMMEs, must be prioritised.


The funding of programmes inadequately provided for must be provided for. In respect of the SMMEs, especially the micro financing, a model that is market-friendly and attainable by macro and survivalist enterprises must be found. Whilst the IFP supports this Report, we would like our concerns to be taken into consideration. Thank you.


Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, in spite of a number of challenges that this department is facing, the ACDP supports this report because we want to see job creation take place, poverty alleviation addressed and want to redress the skewed ownership of the economy. One of our major concerns is that the very people who should benefit from the envisaged transformed ownership of the economy, the majority of whom are in black townships and rural areas have lost their spaza shops to foreign entrepreneurs who are subsidised. These entrepreneurs are not only subsidised, but they rotate between different shops within few months causing some to suspect that they are employed by either an individual or a company that now owns all or most of the spaza shops in the townships.


The ACDP calls upon government to urgently investigate this matter and also address the unfair competition that many local entrepreneurs are complaining about. We believe that an enabling environment for local businesses to thrive should be created by ensuring that locals in townships are subsidised by government through this department so that they can compete fairly against foreign entrepreneurs who appear to be heavily subsidised. The ACDP supports this report.


Ms D CARTER: The department must immediately accelerate the development of access to debt and equity finance for start-ups and emerging businesses; create the necessary framework for risk-sharing agreement to help start-ups that are particularly in need of financial support but are least able to access it.


The department’s policy for expanded opportunities for historically excluded and vulnerable groups, small businesses and co-operatives is out of date, too limited and incapable of expanding opportunities. This is government think rather than business think. The policy is going to lead nowhere.


It is irresponsible of the department not to have already identified and fully addressed the regulatory changes required to accelerate growth of the small business sector and raise its contribution to job creation. It is also highly lamentable that the department did not set up numerous local business incubators or industrial and retail sites or marketing agencies to promote small enterprise growth and development. Time is ticking for people in need of opportunities but it seems not for the department.


From our analysis of the report, it appears that very little, if anything was done to genuinely facilitate the development and growth of small businesses and co-operatives or to achieve job creation. Very little happen to facilitate any radical economic transformation. Without a conducive regulatory environment for small businesses and co-operatives, emerging entrepreneurs face impossible hurdles.


Cope has not seen any facilitation of partnerships with the private sector to ensure mutual co-operation that will benefit small businesses and co-operatives. Every entrepreneur needs a one-stop shop with the provisions required. Cope will not support this report. It does not take small business enterprises forward. All it does is to complicate doing business in South Africa.


Mr S C MNCWABE: The informal sector which relies heavily on SMMEs has for years been the life blood of the poor and the marginalised in South Africa. This is the one sector which has the potential to reduce unemployment and poverty rates and result in a more equitable distribution of income. Moreover, the informal sector is important because it provides the distinct benefits, such as the reduction of economic concentration in the hands of the monopoly capital, encouraging higher levels of competition and creating increased opportunities for the broad based black economic empowerment.

Unfortunately, small business department face many challenges in tackling unemployment, poverty and inequality in our country. The NFP is not convinced that the Department of Small Business Development is doing enough to assist. We do however, acknowledge that the department had only been established in 2014 and that it will take time to get up and running.


We are in agreement with the recommendations contained in the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development, BRRR, tabled today. In particular, the NFP urges the National Treasury to fund programmes that are at risk, and in particular, to urgently fund Co-operatives Development Agency, CDA. Co-operatives are essential to rural development and could form the cornerstone of women economic empowerment if given sufficient funding and support. We believe that the department has a very important role to play in facilitating the development of this important informal sector potential. In conclusion, the NFP supports the recommendations of the portfolio committee. Thank you.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: It is very much interesting to note that the previously disadvantaged, blacks in particular have long been trying their future in SMMEs. Therefore, the establishment of this department of small business development is relevant. We hope that it is going to get down to grassroots and assist our people. It is going to assist our people to develop from small businesses. We also hope that this is going to contribute to the growth of our economy since many will be developed from this second economy.


Creation of jobs and high level competition are some of the benefits from this exercise. People should therefore be encouraged to form co-operatives and learn to work together to achieve a common goal.


The committee therefore, must see to it that this mandate is carried out by the department. We should start from small beginnings to the great. We hope the additional amount of R139 million and three million from the Department of Trade and Industry will be effectively used. The hon Minister of small business development is looking into the reviewing of the programme so as to give an impetus to this department. This will help to guide the department regarding proper allocation of resources.


The areas that have been visited by this committee must have seen great difference and hope for the better. The municipalities therefore, must be cautioned and advised as to how to deal with the people in small businesses. These people should be assisted by municipalities and not harassed because they have no other source of income. The AIC supports this report.


Ms N R BHENGU: Chairperson, hon members, the ANC supports the BRRR of the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development. Let me start by thanking all members of the portfolio committee for their constructive engagement at portfolio committee level. There are very few disagreements in this portfolio committee.


The Department of Small Business Development has done extremely well in managing its transition from being a programme of the Department of Trade and Industry, to becoming a fully-fledged department with its own budget. The portfolio committee recommended that the department should conduct an assessment of the impact of programmes that were inherited from the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Economic Development. The report of this assessment will be presented to the portfolio committee tomorrow, 18 November 2015. That would inform the future direction of the Department of Small Business Development in line with the mandate of the department and also responding to the needs of SMMEs and co-operatives.


Hon Chairperson, the National Small Business Act, NSBA, in its current form focuses on regulating the development of SMMEs and co-operatives. We think that the review of the act is necessary and we support it, so that the department can then begin to focus on ensuring that there is radical transformation of the economy and participation of co-operatives and SMMEs in the mainstream economy. The ANC will facilitate a full implementation of the 30% procurement of goods and services ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time is now expired.


Ms N R BHENGU: ... for SMMEs and co-operatives. The ANC supports the BRRR. [Applause.]




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Chairperson, it is with great delight that the DA accepts and even endorses this report. Our delight stands from the fact that half of the total recommendations agreed to emanate directly from the DA all the remainder is the work of the newly strident ANC. To the great surprise of many its seems Chair that the ANC can in fact behave rationally, reasonably and in the best interest of our people when it accepts the fact that South Africa is a single nation with a shared future. Long may such rationality reign, although only a fool would expect it to, nonetheless such has been a positive effect of the DA that the bridgeable are unambiguously cause for and an immediate finalisation of all outstanding energy policy documents and their presentation to the portfolio committee within six months.


A fully transparent forensic audit into the unprecedented 14.5 billion rand loss at petrol SA with the demand that the full findings be presented to the portfolio committee upon its completion and finally that all key nuclear procurement documentation including funding cost modalities be delivered to the portfolio committee within three months. But that Chair is slightly where delights ends, the performance of the department remains abysmal sad par and dynamite atrocious, in fact never in the history of this country has a department been so poorly named. I put it to you Chair that the ... residents of Shady pines ... they pursue activities with greater energy than the Department of Energy.


The department’s complete lack of energy can be best illustrated by its failure to spend a whopping 1.2 billion rand of its ... budget in a financial year under review. Chairperson, funny if I may be so ... as to offer word of thanks of half of the committee I would like to thank the EFF, thank them for failing to attend a single committee meeting in the past five months, [Applause.] although a distinct case of absence, it is not a case of where the heart grows fonder. The EFF continues to leave real work of government


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member!


Mr M Q NDLOZI (Point of order): Hon Chairperson, this hon member is misleading the House and I think that we must correct and put on record that the idea that the EFF is not attending meetings is absolutely misleading the House. Don’t rise on our back; you will never match us, not in this life time.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member if you can just write to me and we will formally raise those issues with the DA.


Mr N S MATIASE: The EFF rejects the adoption of the budget review and recommendation report from the energy portfolio committee and we call on all the people of South Africa to reject the ANC in 2016 local government elections for failing to give people electricity. The only relevant and important recommendation this budget review report was supposed to put forward for the adoption of this House is as follows;


The department must cancel its nuclear procurement programme because it’s unaffordable. The 200 million allocated for nuclear procurement foundation must be allocated to programme that will ensure that every South African has access to affordable electricity today. This is not a cause; these two important recommendations are not included in the report despite overwhelming evidence and advice from experts and country as such Germany who have profoundly experienced when it comes to nuclear, that nuclear is bad for South Africa. The report is oblivious of this reality instead all that it said was a merely request for transparency. The question is transparency from whom? From people who have got no regard whatsoever of good governance principle. It is not always the executive that is rendering government useless but portfolio committee as well are taking a lead in that.


The ANC government has shown that it has got no interest whatsoever in clean energy. The Department of Energy even failed to spend their clean energy budget of the allocated 1.9 billion; they only spent 800 million which is less that 50% of the allocated budget. More than 20 years in to democracy we still have people who do not have access to electricity; such a basic need for human survival, the ANC must be ashamed. For those who are connected to the greed they cannot afford to pay. We call on the people of South Africa to reject the ANC 2016 municipal elections, thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Fruitless and wasteful expenditure within the Department of Energy and its entities is still of great concern and most of it can be attributed to improper management. An amount of R14.5 billion lost to petrol South Africa is just one example of the billions that are being lost through such mismanagement. Eskom in its 2014-2015 financial year encored 51 million fruitless and wasteful expenditure, lost R102 million as a result of criminal activity and encored R708 million irregular expenditure. Not only must this transgressions be prevented but it must also be the political will to hold those responsible accountable.


We need greater focus on the renewable energy, this is an opportunity to solve our own electricity problems as well as develop and increase our country’s human and intellectual capital which will provide increasing returns ... to the future. In the respect of nuclear energy our part should be guided by existing knowledge and current conditions both global and local. Currently there is a great risk that South Africa could experience an ... recession in the near future. How would it be financially viable then to justify the enormous financial impact of a trillion plus rand of nuclear bill programme on our already strained economy when cheaper alternative exist.


The IFP is also essentially opposed to the implementation of common tax since this is again just another way for Eskom to pass on its carbon bill to the ... consumers in South Africa, without concerns note that the IFP supports this report, thank you. [Applause.]


Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, energy affects the lives of all South Africans and our government’s recent inability to provide continuous energy to citizens and businesses has caused great harm to our country. Business confidence plummeted economic growth was lower than anticipated and ordinary citizens had to be the inconvenience of load shedding side by side with businesses that lost millions if not billions of rands in the load shedding saga. The findings of the report are not encouraging and do not inspire confidence. As at the 31 March 2014 the department spent 6.2 billion or 83.6% of its allocated budget. This resulted in an unspent balance of 1.2 billion or 16% of the adjusted allocation. For a nation constantly facing energy uncertainty such under spending cannot be acceptable. A lack of crucial policy documents such as the integrated energy plan and the integrated resource plan can also not be acceptable.


The current energy insecurity we face is a result of an inadequate planning during the past 21 years and a lack of important policies indicates that the department has not learned from the mistake of the past. The NFP is also concerned about the lack of an integrated ... infrastructure review, particularly so since the South African government is determined to proceed with a massive and unaffordable nuclear energy programme. We believe that an alternative and renewable energy should be vigorously explored as an alternative to nuclear energy and fully support portfolio committee report call for transparency when important decisions such as this are made. In conclusion the NFP supports the portfolio committee on energy report as tabled, I thank you.


Ms D CARTER: The white paper renewable energy of November 2003 was held to expand and accelerate the implementation of renewable energy in South Africa. The use of renewable energy is an imperative both for environment as well as for economic reasons. The committee must recognise this and recommend a bigger budget for renewable energy, in tomorrow’s world renewable energy will be dominant. The committee must also ensure that the budget for non grid electrification and solar water heating is utilised fully and swiftly. The department must facilitate swiftly roll out of non grid connections and must actively help to reverse the negative perceptions about non grid technologies and their practical short comings. Sadly financial control and I am not going to go into all the figures because it has been mentioned by my colleagues is a matter of serious concern in respect of irregular expenditure as well as wasteful expenditure.


COPE urges the department to implement the auditor general’s recommendation, prioritise consequence management, implement financial control timeously, ensure that compliance to legislation for example the PFMA is continuously monitored and reviewed. The COPE supports the report, thank you.


Mr ?? (ANC): The ANC supports the budgetary review and recommendation report of the portfolio committee on energy of 2014-2015. On the 21 October 2015 the portfolio committee on energy considered and adopted a report with its recommendations without any objections by any member of any party represented in this House. On the occasion of his state of the nation address the President once again placed energy at the centre of the programme of this fifth democratic administration. During the MTPPS the Minister of Finance highlighted shortages of energy supply as amongst the key constraints to economic and social development. The portfolio committee on energy is mindful of this pressing rational challenge; we have noted that substantial progress has been made in some of the key programmes of the Department of Energy such as the mass electrification of households and the renewable energy programmes.


We do recognise such persisting challenges especially in some of our SOEs and we have asked the Department of Energy to put a plan which is realisable and a progressive plan in place to urgently and decisively respond to this challenges and we certain that progress will be made, the ANC supports this report, thank you hon Chair. [Applause.]




There was no debate.


The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Dr G A GROOTBOOM: Hon Chairperson, the DA has noted with concern that some entities within the department are not functioning as they should. The root cause of this is poor management as a direct result of ill-conceived appointments. It is a pity that this department does not have a director-general. The acting director-general was not present at the tabling of this report.


The DA has also noted that the majority of entities have shown progress in terms of both performance outcomes and audit opinions.


Two issues will need serious scrutiny and consultation in the coming year. The first is the erection of the Heroes Park and its promotion. It is costly and makes demigods out of struggle heroes.


The second one is the inability of the Pan South African Language Board, PanSALB, to get its house in order. The implementation of the Official Languages Act of 2012, remains a challenge not only for this entity but for South Africa as a whole.


The DA is committed to making South Africa work to the benefit of its people and that people get the services that they should. Furthermore, the DA is committed to fiscal prudence and seeing to it that the people are not cheated out of receiving quality services. To do this, the DA will keep on shining as a beacon of light promoting freedom, fairness and opportunity.


The report reflects that an effort had been made to change the culture of the Department of Arts and Culture entities, but political will did not match this intention. It is against that intention that the DA is in support of this report as tabled. I thank you.


Ms A MATSHOBENI: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Portfolio Committee on Arts and Culture’s Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report. The 2014 Budgetary Review Recommendation Report had some recommendations to the department, most of which were implemented.


In the same vein, we call for the re-naming of the Kruger National Park. Paul Kruger was a rabid racist who should be erased from our collective memory.


We also call for a new national anthem that can inspire our nation to change. The inclusion of Die stem in our national anthem is an insult to all those who fought and were killed for our liberation.


We condemn the racist DA lobby which is suppressing the transformation of the University of Stellenbosch language policy. Afrikaans as the language of instruction at the university must fall, because the majority of students want English as a medium of instruction.


Our art industry is dominated by the likes of Sony which abuses our local artists whenever it wishes. We call for a radical transformation of the industry so that we can have our own recording companies that will produce our own music for the local and export markets.


We call on all South Africans to reject the ANC and the DA in the 2016 local government elections.


By the end of the 2014-15 financial year, this department had spent R96 million of its allocated budget. In the meantime artists were starving and dying in poverty. Museums were unable to put up exhibitions that display the history of the black people of this country.


During the tabling of the 2014-15 budget, the Department of Arts and Culture had planned to underspend by 2% which was R70 million. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair, the department’s pivotal role in the contribution to the growth and welfare of this South African economy and protection of our heritage is very much dependent on the financial support received from government.


Yet, with so many challenges, it remains of great concern that the department does not spend its entire budget. The R21,5 million to fill management posts in order to strengthen internal controls and compliance addresses the problems and is a step in the right direction.


The lack of clarity around the roles of the Department of Arts and Culture and that of other departments, as well as the roles of the Department of Arts and Culture and that of its own entities is leading to overlaps and uncertainties regarding the responsibilities within the primary functions of promoting art and marketing heritage sites for tourists.


Through tourism, arts and craft has been identified as one of the main drivers of sustainable economy, opportunities and income generators for local communities and rural districts. Eight qualified reports from the entities and only two unqualified is excessive and extreme and can only point towards incompetent management and to an absence of control within the department. There cannot be any be real justification for that. The IFP supports the report. Thank you.


Mr J L MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson and members, I think I should by start by correcting the previous speaker. There obviously cannot be eight unqualified and two qualified reports, because this department has 28 entities. So, if you talk about eight and two, what then happened to the rest? [Interjections.]

But I understand that members of the IFP have not been able to attend. It does, however, help to enquire and read properly from the documents.


Well, quite a lot of work ... [Interjections.] ... even the EFF has obviously not been attending. They just tried to attend one or two. [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Order! Order! Order! I rise on a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Mahlangu. Can you take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Take your seat, chief.


An HON MEMBER: Sit down, chief. Sit down.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, what is your point of order? [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon House Chairperson, please, we do not like to be misrepresented by members of the ANC here who have written notes to come and mislead South Africans about the performance of the EFF in these committees. We have been consistent in that useless committee that has not taken a single apartheid statue down! [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order hon Ndlozi. Take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please! He must withdraw. We have been there. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, can you take your seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Asanda has been there. Please!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, can you please take your seat!


Mr J L MAHLANGU: Well ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mahlangu ... Order, hon members. I indicated earlier that the matter of attendance is a matter that the Chair cannot deal with now. We will have to enquire about it, but I ask members to stick to their speeches and continue.

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Well, it does help to attend so that you are on top of issues. As I mentioned, there are quite significant improvements on the performance of both the department and the entity. [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: The statue, you have to take it down.


Mr J L MAHLANGU: The last performance of the department is an unqualified report. [Interjections.] Most of the entities have received unqualified reports and there is progress ... [Interjections.]


An HON MEMBER: The statue, you have to take it down.


Mr J L MAHLANGU: ... even those entities that did not perform well in the previous years ... we have seen a marked progress and we are hoping that even the two or three that we are focussing on like the Nelson Mandela Museum and Performing Arts Centre of the Free State, Pacofs ... The only problem that we are still facing — and I think the department will take the appropriate actions — is the PanSALB problem. I think we have been raising it for quite some time and we hope that this entity will finally receive the attention that it deserves.


Through this department South Africa has participated in quite a lot of international exposures. At one stage we saw Cubans and Americans on one stage, something that has not been seen in many years. We support the report. Thank you. [Time Expired.]


Division demanded.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I would like to remind members that they may only vote from their allocated seats. When requested to do so, members must simply indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button below the ‘yes’, ‘no’ or ‘abstain’ signs. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button, the member may, thereafter, press the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s vote when the voting session is closed by the Chair. Order! Hon members, are we all in our allocated seats? Hon Carter, are you in your seat? We are starting to vote. Can you go to your seat?


The question before the House is that the Budgetary Review Recommendations Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts and Culture be adopted. Are all members in their allocated seats? Vote ...


Mr D W MACPHERSON: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Who is not? [Interjections.] Hello, can somebody stand up to indicate who?


Mr D W MACPHERSON: The hon Ndlozi is not in his seat.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, are you in your allocated seat?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, I won’t be monitored by a white boy.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay, I am just asking.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I won’t!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I won’t!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I didn’t elect a class representative here.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi!


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I don’t think the issue is about being monitored. All what I ask you is: Are you in your allocated seat?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I just finish with hon Ndlozi, hon Steenhuisen? Hon Ndlozi, are you in your allocated seat?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I voted hon Chair. That’s the crux of the matter.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No! As I read out the procedure, all members must be in their allocated seat.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, Chair. That’s not true.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, it is true. It is true.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I went to my seat and I voted.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ask you now because you didn’t vote. Can I ask you now to go back to your allocated seat?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, Chair. I voted.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I know you voted but I am asking you now to go to your allocated seat because we are going to vote.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): So, you forfeit your right to vote.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: I have voted.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You can’t have voted.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The materiality ... You know hon Chair, you are falling into a trap here.




Mr M Q NDLOZI: You are falling ... And you know that you are falling into a trap.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am not.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Okay, no problem. I am sitting here, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shandu, I haven’t recognise you.


Mr N S MATIASE: Yes, he has voted here.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, the Rules, unless you want to change the Rules. As they stand now, the procedure is that members vote from their allocated seats. I am saying if members would like to change – they know that they need to go to the Rules Committee, fortunately is sitting tomorrow. You can make those amendments that you want now to vote in another place. And I am just stating the obvious. It’s nothing new. All what I ask and I outlined the procedure to say members must vote from their allocated seat


Mr M Q NDLOZI: But hon Chair, you are saying it again now, members must vote in their allocated seats. Isn’t it?




Mr M Q NDLOZI: So, I have voted in my allocated seat.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): But you can’t ...


Mr M Q NDLOZI: You cannot make me bend on a Rule that is not there.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Do not fall on a trap.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am not.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Please the Rules say I must vote in my allocated seat. I have voted in my allocated seat.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): We will have to make decision on that one. Hon Steenhuisen, you wanted to raise a point of order?


Mr J H STEENHUISEN: I would like to refer into to Rule 63, Madam House Chair and refer you to the annotated Digest of Rulings of 94 to 99, where the use of racial epithet was dealt with thoroughly by a variety of presiding officers ranging from the hon Baleka Mbete to hon Ranchod. It was very clear from that you may not use racial epithet in this House. And I will suggest to you that if we start going down this road, it’s going to be a one that this Parliament will not be able to sustain. And that reference to any member of this House as a white boy or a black boy is a racist and is offensive. And I would ask that the hon Ndlozi withdraw that racial epithet because is really not conducive to the debate that we need in this House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member for the point of order. Hon Ndlozi, in respect of your earlier response when we were discussing and I ask members when they were saying there is somebody who is not in their allocated seat; you said you don’t want to be monitored by a white boy. Did I hear you correctly?




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): In terms of the Rules and Conventions of this House, that statement and that phrasing cannot be acceptable. It is unparliamentary. Can I ask you to withdraw?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Can I address you, hon Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You may.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The Rules say I must not refer to someone in the House as a white boy. You repeated my statement. I don’t know which hon member. You did not say the name of that hon member, but I maintain that the EFF caucus cannot be monitored by white boys.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: That’s what we are saying, hon Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: The EFF caucus will not be monitored by white boys, where we sit, how we vote.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, the issue is about the phrasing you used, which is not acceptable. May I ask you to withdraw because I ... [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... but Chair, you said I must not refer to someone. We will not as a generalisation be monitored by white boys.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Whether here in Parliament, outside Parliament or anywhere, we won’t be monitored by white boys.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, may you please withdraw?




The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): May you please withdraw? [Interjections.] Hon Ndlozi? [Interjections.]


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I put it to you. There is nothing unparliamentary. In terms of my rights with freedom of speech, I have the right to say to you or to anyone in the House, inside or outside. The EFF caucus will not be monitored by white boys.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, we are talking about the caucuses of parties here.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: That’s what I meant. I can’t be made to withdraw that the EFF caucus will not be monitored by white boys. I can’t be made to withdraw that. It is not consistent with the Rule that you are saying. It’s not. The EFF caucus will not be monitored. We will not be monitored by white boys as to where we seat, what we say and all those things. We won’t be monitored by white boys. If I mention the name I would have withdrawn it, but by making it as a generalisation as a statement that everybody must know. We won’t be monitored by white boys.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, this is not about the caucus of each party. I was asking you to withdraw a statement you made in the House, which is unparliamentary. [Interjections.] Hon Hlophe? Can we finish with hon Ndlozi?

Ms H O HLOPHE: I just want to make a follow up, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No!


Ms H O HLOPHE: I want to assist, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You cannot make a follow up when we are making a ruling on a member.


Ms H O HLOPHE: No, just a follow up.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You are not the person who said that statement.


Ms H O HLOPHE: At least you hear me out.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I will address you when we have concluded this matter. Hon Ndlozi, you made a statement in the House which is unparliamentary. I have asked you, I have repeated the phrase, you agreed. [Interjections.] If you want the member to stand the member can stand and say it again and actually you just stressing the point. You actually saw, but if you have difficulty, the Rules of this House is that if a member doesn’t want to withdraw a statement which he or she strongly believes in, you then leave the House. That’s all. I can’t force you to withdraw if you don’t want to, but I will ask the excuse us and then leave the House. That’s what I can ask you to do.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair?


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: Even in my grave, right in my grave, as a generalisation, here, tomorrow, forever, we will not be monitored by white boys. We will not be told where to seat, what to say, by white boys.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ask you then to leave the House because you don’t want to withdraw?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: No, I can’t. It’s not consistent with the Rules.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It’s consistent.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s not consistent with the Rules.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It is.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: It is not consistent with the Rule.


The CHAIRPERSON: Hon ndlozi, if you don’t want to withdraw a statement because you feel strongly as you do say.


Mr M Q NDLOZI: It’s not about the statement feeling strongly, it’s whether is unparliamentary or not.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: In your assessment hon Chair, [Interjections.] ...you said I must refer to someone.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): ... hon Ndlozi?


Mr M Q NDLOZI: But I am referring to a generalisation. EFF will not be monitored by white boys. It won’t.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please leave the House?




The CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ask the Serjeant-at-arms to ask the member to leave the Chamber? [Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair?


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair?


Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair?


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair? Why are our microphones off?


Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair, why are you not allowing me?


Mr N S MATIASE: Our microphones are off. Madam Chair? [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, the ones that are standing, can you please take your seats? There is a process that I have outlined.


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, I rise on a point of order.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You will be attended to on your point of order when we have concluded the matter.


Mr N S MATIASE: But that will be after four.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, I have made a ruling on this matter. Hon Ndlozi refused to withdraw. [Interjections.] No! [Interjections.] I said after. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Thank you hon members, can we please take our seats and vote?


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You will address me when we have finished voting hon members, all three of you.


Ms H O HLOPHE: No! No!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You will!


Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chair?


Mr N S MATIASE: Chairperson?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can we please take our seats? All members who are standing can we please go to our allocated seats?


Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have seen your hands. You will be addressed, but for now we are voting.


The question before the House is that the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report of Portfolio Committee on Arts and Culture be adopted.


Are all members in their allocated seats? Voting will now commence. Those in favour of the report should press the “yes” button, those against ... Hon member why are you still standing? Order, hon member, why is the member not in their seat? [Interjections.]


Ms A C STEYN: I was just ... I was ... Is not working. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, hon member.


Ms A C STEYN: I was made aware that one of the members is not in their seats. So, I was just checking on that.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please take your seat? We are voting now. Are all members in their allocated seats? Those in favour of the report should press the “yes” button, those against should press the “no” button and those wishing to abstain should press the “abstain” button.


Ms A C STEYN: On a point of order, hon Chair. It’s still shows the previous ones ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You will actually report to the Table when the voting is done.


Ms A C STEYN: Well can ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Your Chief Whips know what to do. Have all members voted? The voting session is now closed. Members who you said you have a difficulty ... Hon member of the DA, may I address you? You can go to your Chief Whip and indicate the problem. They will raise it with the NA Table. [Interjections.] Hon member, take your seat.


House divided.


AYES – 228: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, L J; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Bergman, D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chance, R W T; Chiloane, T D; Coleman, E M; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dreyer, A M; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Esterhuizen, J A; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Galo, M P; Gamede, D D; Gana, S M; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Grootboom, G A; Gumede, D M; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jafta, S M; James, W G; Johnson, M; Jongbloed, Z; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khunou, N P; Kohler, D; Koornhof, G W; Kopane, S P; Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabika, M S; Mabilo, S P; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N; Majola, T R; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapulane, M P; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D; Masango, B S ; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Masina, M C; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mazzone, N W A; Mbalula, F A; Mbhele, Z N; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokgalapa, S; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Motau, S C; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B; Msimang, C T; Mthembu, J M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Ollis, I M; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Redelinghuys, M H; Robinson, D; Schmidt, H C; Shabangu, S; Shelembe, M L; Shinn, M R; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Tleane, S A; Topham, B R; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Waters, M; Williams, A J; Wilson, E R; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zwane, M J.

NOES – 14: Chewane, H C; Hlophe, H O; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Matiase, N S; Matlhoko, A M; Matshobeni, A; Mbatha, M S; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, S P; Moteka, P G; Paulsen, M N; Rawula, T; Sonti, N P.


Question agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can I take a point of order first from hon Hlophe followed by hon Matiase?


Ms H O HLOPHE: House Chairperson, it’s unfortunate that you only allow me now after hon Ndlozi has been ejected from the House. But Chair, if you remember very well, also in the Rules Committee, we have raised this point quiet critically that in the absence of multi-party committee to deal with some of the decision you are taking is in fact unfair to us.


Hon Ndlozi was asking you just to simplify the process, just to say who the member of the DA so that he can withdraw. But unfairly we have ejected him. So, we want to register our unhappiness as the EFF.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, your point is noted, but may I also address you? [Interjections.] Hon member of the DA stood and raised his point to which hon Ndlozi turned, faced him, pointed at him and made the statement that he made. So, he knew perfectly. But I have noted your concern, indeed the Rules Committee is meeting tomorrow. I am sure they would also address this matter accordingly.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Can I make a follow up, Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You can make a follow up.


Mr M C MASINA: Chairperson, there are other orders we want to call here please.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I do know hon member. Can you take your seat?


Ms H O HLOPHE: No, I am saying Chair, correctly so the member of the DA stood up and then hon Ndlozi faced him, but I am saying in terms of the processes as the Chair, if a member is saying who is the member who stood up, it’s your duty to say is hon so and so, but you failed him because you are very impatient with EFF ... not today, not now.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much hon member. As I indicated, your concern can be raised to the appropriate committee. Hon Matiase?


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, at what point do you really enforce and apply Rules consistently in that you’ll recall ... And I think that you were presiding, hon Chair, when a similar utterance was made although it was in Afrikaans and whoever who was presiding that day did not invoke the specific Rule that you have just invoked. Now, I rise here to register my concern that in the past, very recently utterances of that nature were made in Afrikaans and no such ruling was effected. And I want to know why are you applying Rules inconsistently?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, you have raise a point of about the consistency of rulings. We will follow that one up and if you can please advise on the specific matter you said it was done in Afrikaans, if you can indicate the date, we will follow on the Hansard and indeed we will come back to the House. Hon Nqweniso, you had your hand up.

Ms N V MENTE: Hon Chair, your inconsistency has brought us into this situation. Today, now, it must be recorded in this House that no general statements, parliamentary or unparliamentary must be made, even if they are not directed to an individual. They are not acceptable. A person must leave the House. No one will make a general statement, be it to an individual or to a party or to whatever. It must not be made in the House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member? Thank you very much.


Ms N V MENTE: We just rule that it must be that way.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): As I said there is a Rules Committee, which is an appropriate committee to deal with most matters before they come to the House, so you will raise it there tomorrow or your representative.


Ms N V MENTE: But you have already made the ruling. So, there is no point of sitting in that committee.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.


Ms N V MENTE: No, you already made the ruling. There is no point of sitting in that committee.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat?




Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon House Chair, can I bring to your attention that hon Ndlozi as he was being ejected, he raised a middle finger and I know that those gestures are derogatory and I for one as a Member of Parliament will feel very offended if somebody raises those gestures at me. May you take it up with the Ethics Committee or Rules Committee or whichever structure that deals with such behaviour? [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member. Hon Masina. Thank you. There is another hon member at the back. Thank you.




There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party:  Hon House Chair, I move that the report be adopted.


Declarations of vote:

Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, once more, the Department of Science and Technology has to be commended for the excellent work they are doing. Although the Department attained clean audit, there are certain areas that can be approved and am quite sure that the Department will pay attention to these as they had in the past.


From the past experience, the main problem experienced facing this Department is the limited budget allocated to the Department and its entities. This has a detrimental effect on the Department’s ability to reach its full potential and mandate. This Department can and should play a major role in economic growth, but it remains in the periphery of government’s economic strategies and priorities.


One can highlight many of the areas where more funding is urgently needed, but perhaps in the light of the fees must fall events, the following amplifies the need for more funding and due to lack funding will have long term implications.


The National Research Foundation, NFR, is responsible for providing funding for post graduate studies. With its current budget the NRF can only support 5% of the total of honours registrations, 7% of the total master’s registrations and 14% of the PhD registrations. This situation will make it almost impossible to attain the NDP goal of 100 PhDs per million of the population per annum and will have a serious impact of addressing the problem of an ageing academic cohort and quality lecturing and research.


It is also important that ageing discussions are held to discuss ways in which the percentage of GDP spent on RND can be increased. This Department is one of the few glimpses of hope and should be one of the departments at the forefront of the government economic strategies, but sadly it is not. The DA supports this report.


Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, Science and Technology in that racist institution of Stellenbosch University continue to be taught in the language of the minority despite the student demands for English. The EFF rejects the portfolio committee on Science and Technology Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report.


We call on South African society to equally reject the ANC that is proceeding over this degeneration that they are not even here today. A number of African countries are growing at the rate they are growing which is far above the rate of growth in South Africa, simply because they have invested heavily in Science and Technology research and are now reaping the benefits.


South Africa has ignored the very basics of what drives growth than development of countries. The Department has set a target of investing 2% of GDP on Science and Technology by 2018. This is after failing to reach the initial target of spending 1% of GDP on Science and Technology in 2008.


The reality is that investment in Science and Technology has been on the decline over the past few years and it is highly unlikely that the 2018 target will be met. The transformation of Science and Technology feels so remains blight on the good work of this Department and the seriousness of this country to ensure that those who benefited from apartheid do not remain the sole producers of scientific knowledge and use in some department that we visited in fact this departments looks like Fikile Mbalula’s Springbok rugby team, pale male.


The plight of women in Science and technology field is close to be a national disaster. It is incomprehensive that the scientists are still dominated by predominantly white men. The ANC is deliberately restricting funding to science and technology developments so that they can continue striking unsustainable and corrupt label deals with the West for the most basic of things such as the constructions of power stations.


If the ANC is serious about a competitive and industrialising nation, we should never have to go out for expertise, we can still develop ourselves. [Time expired.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chair, the IFP would at the outset want to congratulate the fish for swimming in getting the clean audit, the Department and all its entities. We believe that the good work being done in making sure that the financial health of the Department is observed and is work that must be commended.


The final heddle is that the are one or two matters that the AG has raised and ours is to encourage the Department at this point to sort out those audit issues, so that the clean audit can be the clean audit in the true sense of the word. But you must note that clean audit must just be part and parcel of the daily activity of the Department, so we congratulate the fish for swimming.


Secondly, in order to make sure that the finance of the Department is used in a manner which is effective and efficient? There will be need to continue to be closer local and global joint initiatives in the areas of Science and technology and avoid the continuing levels of duplication where some of the research is going on.


While we acknowledge that the Department is not a service delivery department per se it must though be noted with concern that previously disadvantaged communities find themselves presently disadvantaged in that they do not have access even to the most basic of laboratories to enable them to compete favourably with their competitors in previously and presently disadvantaged areas. So we would want to encourage the Department of Basic Education to ensure that it gets this laboratories up and running so that we got the healthier feeder into the research of the Department, because if this doesn’t continue success in the field of science and technology will continue to be the preserve of the elite living our people on the back foot. I thank you.


Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, the Department of Science and Technology like many other government departments had to do more with fewer funds. The findings of the report indicate that the Department has managed to achieve 85% of its performance target despite the financial restrictions and therefore commend the Department on 8% increase of the past financial year.


We are also impressed with the clean audit opinion which the Department, the HSRC, the NRF, the CSIR, the TIA, and SANSA received. But also urge the Department to pay close attention to the AG’s request that the Department and its entities institute proper oversight of supply chain management and implement consequence management processes to minimise irregular spending.


The NFP also support the recommendations of the portfolio committee that at least 1.5% of our GDP be allocated to the Department of Science and Technology. With uncertainty now on our energy supply increasing water scarcity and global warming threatening our food security, we believe that the Department has a crucial role to play in developing Science and Technology to address these challenges we face.


Investing in science and technology and in education today will yield the results in the future. If we fail to do so future generation will judge us harshly. The NFP supports this report. Thank you.


Ms N R BHENGU: Chairperson, the BRRR of the committee brings to the attention of the House that the National Development Plan of 2030 has identified Science and Technology as a vehicle to take the economy of the Republic of South Africa to higher heights and also to ensure economic growth.


And as part of its constitutional mandate, the committee undertook oversight to department’s entities in the quest to understand their role within the Department of Science and Technology and also to qualify and confirm the statement of the NDP.


The oversight indeed confirmed the statement that the NDP calls for 1.5% of the GDP to be allocated for research and development which currently standing at 0.7%, while competing in a global space where in a number of other countries an allocation of up to 6% is set aside for research and development.


The other challenge faced by the Department is based on the set budget, is fragmentation of research and development within different departments and the set entities also do work without them paying for the work done.


We believe that it will be important to consider having a separate vote that will focus solely on research and development and we would like to commend the Department and its entities for receiving the clean audit despite the limited resources that they operate with.


We also commend the Department for its considered efforts to demystify Science and Technology as an area for clever people and taking the Science week mainly to rural areas the ANC supports the report. Thank you, Chair.


Motion agreed to (EFF dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, as time allocated for these reports has now expired; I move that the last remaining two reports stand down until we come back.


Mr N SINGH: Thank you House Chair, orders 8, 9 and 1.


Business suspended at 12:59 and resumed at 14:06.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of votes:

Dr H C VOLMINK: Hon Deputy Speaker, while the DA supports the budget report, we are concerned about the mismatch between money spent and target achieved and the fact that we didn’t have enough opportunity to adjust the budget appropriately is frustrating. One of the most disturbing examples on this relates to maternal mortality in our country. Maternal health is and should remain a priority and yet we fail to reach all set targets, reporting an unacceptably high, 133 maternal deaths per 100 000 live births. This just refers to in-facility deaths.


What about the mothers who don’t even reach the hospital? Mothers like 21-year-old Zanele Budhaza who died last year in the Eastern Cape after giving birth. She had waited for more than three hours for the ambulance even though she lived only ten kilometers away from the hospital. Tragedies like this highlight the real human cost of not meeting maternal mortality targets.


I have what makes is reality even starker is the fact that the department only 48% - a measly 48% of its target despite having spent for that programme, 99,9% of its budget. And it doesn’t end there, in programme 4, primary health care services has spent 95,5% of its budget but it only managed 65% of its target. in programme 6, health regulation and compliance has spent 94,7% of its budget, but only reached an abyss of 58% of its target.


Given this tragedy, how on earth do we expect National Health Insurance, NHI, to work? A mismatch between expenditure and targets reflect either failure to plan appropriately or failure to implement policy effectively, either way, the cost is too high, because it is not just about maladministration, it is about life or death. When the whole system fails; people die. Thank you.


Dr H CHEWANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, on health and these are the reasons: The Department of Health through all its entities really represent a continuation of a bad story with regard to the management of the health entities and performance.


I am going to talk about the National Health Laboratory Services. We have a crisis where in most hospitals they are unable to reach out with regard to basic laboratory forms, basic specimen tubes and it is ineffective there. The institution itself is unable to attract highly qualified, highly specialised biomedical technologists and there is no improvement in that regard.


The Medical Research Council continues to allocate inequitable resources for research under a current problem where we have a TB vaccine that the country is no longer able to get. We should be channelling resources to institutions equitable so that we can research around these challenges.


With regard to the management of facilities – the secondary health facilities, the National Department of Health has not been able to give us a clear programme with regard to who should manage secondary health care facilities. Is it doctors, is it managers, is it political deployees, we are not seeing any direction in that regard. That is a crisis.


With regard to emergency medical services, the reason it is going to be continuation of deterioration on the maternal health is because we don’t have ambulance services. In Gauteng, for an example, the department relies on private ambulance services, which costs the department a lot of money to sustain. We don’t have properly qualified paramedics; up to today the department is still, running on paramedic assistance. It is a huge problem.


In 2015, which is 21 years down the line, we still have hospitals, secondary hospitals that have their pharmacies operating only during the day, which is a crisis. Obviously this is unacceptable. The EFF obviously rejects this and calls on the people of South Africa not to support this government in the 2016 local government elections. I thank you. [Interjections.]


Ms S J NKOMO: Hon Deputy Speaker, as this department continues to make universal progress towards universal health care, improve the quality of care and health facility planning by the implementation of norms and standards; prevents disease and reduce its burden and promote health and health management information; the following remains of greatest concern to us as the IFP: Number One, irregular expenditure through noncompliance with legislation by the department, provinces and entities is of great concern and this lands itself to corruption and its related activities. Supply chain management principles must be adhered to and appropriately applied under threat of severe sanctions.


Number two, the state of our public hospitals still leaves a great deal to be desired. General hospital hygiene remains a concern as it places the infirm as well as infants at the greatest risk of contracting additional illness through unsanitary conditions.


Number three, departmental service providers are not being paid within the said 30 days period. This is leading to working health care shortages at these companies and in some instances it has led to companies going out of business. Government must not add to the economic wars of the country through ineffective administration of its own departments or pay our service providers timeously. I thank you.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members in the House, the NFP welcomes the Portfolio Committee on Health tabled here today. South Africa’s health care affects everyone of us and for million of the poorest of the poor, quality health care remains a vague promise which remains unfulfilled.


The NFP takes note of the fact that the Auditor-General gave the department an unqualified audit opinion with findings on the department’s 2014-15 annual report which means that the financial statement of the department present fairly the financial position of the department.


However, the NFP is alarmed by the increase in irregular expenditure. Failing to comply must be followed with consequences. The underexpenditure in this programme to be revealed to the National Health Insurance, which has increased to R337,5 million from R295 million in the previous year.


We are hopeful that this underspending in the National Health Insurance will now be resolved in light of the fact that it would appear that Mauritius has 400 medical officers available should we deem it necessary to actually employ them, being a member of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region.


We also displayed that the poor service delivery performance of the department were only 64 that were achieved out of the 102 targets. This represents a disappointing 63% achievement rate, which is completely unacceptable for such an important government department. Most worrying is the 48% achievement rating programme which deals with HIV and Aids. The NFP fully agrees with the recommendation of the Portfolio Committee on Health that the department ensure that it speeds up the finalisation of the White Paper on National Health Insurance with its funding model. Poverty and unemployment is rampant in South Africa and quality health care is outside the reach of the majority of the people. The sooner the National Health Insurance Scheme can be finalised and rolled out, the sooner our people will start getting the medical services they are entitled to.


In conclusion, despite our concerns, the NFP supports the Portfolio Committee on Health. I thank you.


Mr A F MAHLALELA: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the ANC, as the caring people’s movement ... [Interjections.] ... fully support the report. It won’t harm anyone to give credit where credit is due. [Interjections.] And equally the critical where things fall apart, the Department of health has demonstrated over the past three financial years that it is able to effectively and efficiently manage the finances appropriated to it by this House. This department has over the past financial years received an unqualified audit opinion with emphasis on reliability of performance information as matter of emphasis in programme three and programme five.

This is a reflection of the planning challenges with provincial Health Departments, which is a matter that we are urging the department to ensure that effective data collection mechanism in order to ensure that there is reliability of performance information by all provinces.


We are also encouraged, however, by the huge improvement on the expenditure in all the grants except infrastructure where there is still poor project management and delays in supply chain management processes. We agree that there is a challenge of irregular expenditures and that challenges are not necessarily a national Department of Health challenges, it is a provincial problem and we are therefore urging the department to work very closely with provincial Departments of Health so that they are able to address this question of irregular expenditure.


The national department has been doing very well. The irregular expenditure was explained and the committee did accept; it was a necessary one in order to improve services to the people of South Africa. I thank you.


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.



There was no debate.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party, African Independent Congress and African National Congress.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move:


That the Report be adopted.




Ms H O HLOPHE: Yes, Deputy Speaker, we object. We want to make a declaration and I must be the first one.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, declarations have been called; we will now take declarations.


Declarations of votes:

Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Speaker, we must recognise that the Department of Home Affairs has made some very positive progress over the last few months in particular the roll-out of the smart IDs and delivery of passports are on track and must be commended. We are giving credit where credit is due sometimes. However, there are massive policy weaknesses in this department that contribute to making the lives of citizen very miserable. The immigration regulations, for example, continue to cause havoc in the tourism industry and although the Deputy President has announced some very positive amendments, we await the changes to the regulatory framework to correct these problems.


It is very unfortunate that our government and, in particular, the stubborn Minister of Home Affairs did not listen when we stood here and warned him of the consequences of his absurd immigration regulations. There has been very little change in the manner in which finances are allocated in this department. Both the Minister and the director-general are very well aware of the faults and failures of the department and the massive shortages of both human financial resources in the immigration department. Yet, they still make no attempts to increase its allocation and if they do, the increases are insignificant to bring about any meaningful change. Unless the Minister wakes up to the reality that the worst thing that has happened to Home Affairs is his appointment as the Minister, the Department of Home Affairs will continue to be plagued by massive policy confusion and poor service delivery. It’s for this reason that the Home Affairs has adopted the nickname of the department of the horror affairs instead of Home Affairs. The DA cannot support this adjustment budget. Thank you very much.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs. Through the misguided leadership of this department, South Africa has lost over R6 billion and potentially lost close to 9 000 jobs as a result of the ill-thought immigration regulations that the Minister Gigaba forced down the throats of South Africans. In a clear demonstration of the shoot first and aim later mentality that dominates the ANC policy-making these days, the government was forced to revisit its stance on these regulations with the damage done already.


This department has just recently signed a memorandum of understanding with the major commercial banks giving these banks authority to issue identity documents to South Africans. There’s no explanation on how the system will cost the state and how it will not compromise the security of South Africans. The ANC has through this department financed [Inaudible.] South Africans to commercial banks. Maybe if the Minister stops being a fashionista and focuses on his duties you might improve. Malusi Gigaba must fall. We call on the people of South Africa to reject the ANC-led government come 2016.


Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, in fulfilling its stated mission and in its contribution to the National Development Plan in confronting the triple challenges of poverty, unemployment, and inequality, the department of Home Affairs must align itself in assisting the state to strengthen and grow the country economically and socially through the proper management of people through our borders and ports. The recent ill-advised and costly abridged certificate regulation is a textbook example of the consequences that may arise from ill-thought-out and planned policy. The overall cost to the country may well run into billions of rand in lost tourism revenue and its knock-on effect may be well felt for years to come.


Critical skills must be clearly identified and the candidate possessing the same, who show a desire to enter South Africa, must receive expedited residents and work permits. Skill gaps must not be allowed to grow in a way that it does not benefit the country or the economy and in a way that we ensure that the country actually gains. Although improving, service delivery both domestically and internationally through our missions could still be much better. Greater impetus must be provided for streamlining and oversight of the departmental ID, passports and refugee processes.


This will not be achieved with an increase departmental vacancy rate which must be brought down. Post must be filled. The Electoral Commission must ensure transparency and nonpartisanship, and guarantee that more buyers, through any office representative officials, will be permitted in the coming 2016 local government elections. Therefore, the IFP is still against the use of the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, members as electoral officers in the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC. I thank you.


Mr M S MABIKA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Department of Home Affairs reported that it has achieved 70% or 26 out of the 37 targets it set for 2014-15. This shows an improvement of 17% from what was achieved in 2013-14 and the NFP commends the department for this improvement. We are however concerned about the indication of the Auditor-General that some reported performance information was not valid, accurate and complete when compared to the source information or evidence provided. This was due to lack of frequent review of the validity of reported achievements against source documents and should be a cause of great concern to the department.


Another source of concern is the low achievement rate of Programme 2 which deals with service to the citizens of the country. A total of 43% of targets set for Programme 2 were met during period under review which shows a decrease compared to 70% of targets met in the previous financial year. Such performance is unacceptable and the NFP calls upon the department to give serious attention to the recommendations of the portfolio committee in this regard. While the 2014-15 audit opinion is an improvement from the 2013-14 disclaimer, the Department of Home Affairs received the qualified audit opinion which the Auditor-General has indicated it’s still reason for concern particularly so because it means that the Auditor-General could not obtain sufficient appropriate audit evidence for the financial statement accounts and balances.


The NFP is however encouraged by the low level of irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure, even though we urge the department to work towards zero irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure. I thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, this committee, having been briefed by the Auditor-General, AG, the Department of Home Affairs, IEC, and the Government Printers has considered properly this Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR. It has to make it a point that the efficient determination and safeguarding of the ID and status of the citizens are put first for the sake of security, promotion and fulfilment of South African international obligations; migration has to be properly regulated. This has to be carried out through these three programmes, that is administration, services to the citizens and immigration services.


One of the remarkable services of this department is the fast issuing of the ID cards. This helps the citizens of this country to access their rights and services due to them. However, there are challenges that need to be tackled, for example, the long queues at the capture offices because of the unreliable network that often disrupts the services. Most of the targets for 2014-15 and 2015-16, according to these three programmes, have been achieved and that should be appreciated indeed. This department has improved from a disclaimer to a qualified audit opinion. However, this is not enough; we don’t need a qualified opinion but an unqualified or a clean audit.


The evidence of financial statements should be made available to the Auditor-General in time. The irregular expenditure that was incurred by the department is being investigated and that is good. As Parliament we are looking forward to the findings and recommendations of this investigation. However, corruption has to be rooted out in all its forms. It is good that the department did not incur any unauthorised expenditure. We support this Report as AIC. I thank you.


Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC proposes that the BRR Report be adopted. However, before we say why, let me first thank the President and his Cabinet for establishing the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, to resolve tensions between the Department of Home Affairs and the tourism stakeholder fraternity which includes the Department of Tourism. This is what stakeholders say and not political parties. We salute the President and his Cabinet for outstanding leadership and the excellent balancing act in a very difficult situation.


Further, let us look at border management. There is an improvement in this area and the structure is taking shape and what we are concerned about is whether contingency measures are in place in case the unexpected happens. When we come to the Government Printing Works we say that the department should continue to develop a model that will sustain excellence, global competitiveness with quality products for it to thrive and be a national and continental security printer of preference. We however generally believe that the department is run very well; it is in line with the National Development Plan and it is modernising. Despite the substantial reduction in funding which the department is experiencing, its future is bright. I will urge the EFF to attend our meetings. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, can you call order on hon members who always go to the podium and abuse it and say that the EFF doesn’t attend meetings? Can you please make a ruling on that because he’s misleading the House and the nation? Can you please rule on that?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is a political statement, hon member; you will deal with it as you have just done. Hon members, the motion is that the Report be adopted. Are there any objections? Who is objecting?


Mr M H HOOSEN: Deputy Speaker, please note the objection of the DA.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Deputy Speaker, note the objection of the EFF and hon Gumede must know that I’m always with him. He must not mislead this House.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order! The Report is therefore agreed to. [Applause.] Hon members, in terms of the motion moved by the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party earlier this morning, we will now consider the First Order.


Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




There was no debate.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.


Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr T Z HADEBE: House Chair, South Africa faces huge developmental challenges, with high levels of inequality and poverty. It is critical that we build climate-change-resilient communities, smallholder farmers, workers and those who are likely to be hardest hit by the impact of climate change. The programme for climate change and air quality must be adequately funded to carry out this important function of providing a response to climate change.


We are currently witnessing and feeling the effects of climate change through extreme weather events, including hailstorms, droughts and heat waves. There is no doubt that these events have an impact on our health system, and damage infrastructure and the economies of agriculture, fisheries, tourism and the insurance sectors.


Therefore it is prudent that the programme get more funding instead of cuts. In terms of building climate-change-resilient communities, there must be co-ordinated action from the government as outlined in the National Climate Change Response White Paper. Government recognises that an effective response to climate change requires national policy to ensure a co-ordinated, coherent, efficient and effective response to the global challenge of climate change, but, in reality, that is not the case, as the departments are highly fragmented.


The ongoing investment in coal-fired power stations contradicts the objectives of mitigation contained in the national policy and our negotiation position in the Conference of Parties in Paris, or Cop 21. Currently, there are nine coal-based energy-independent power-producer projects that have applied for environmental impact assessments, EIAs. Three environmental authorisations have been granted.


Coal-fired generation is highly water intensive and impacts significantly on human health. The situation is aggravated by the fact that there is no transparent monitoring of and reporting by emitters and the department lacks capacity in effectively monitoring and enforcing compliance.


Programme 2, which is legal authorisation, compliance and enforcement, needs more funding to build much-needed capacity in the provincial and local spheres of government to carry out this important task.


We have a moral responsibility to future generations, and that is the reason why the DA supports the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, of the portfolio committee. Thank you, House Chair.


Mr T RAWULA: Chair, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs. This department is supposed to be leading the efforts to prevent pollution, to promote conservation and to lead us on a new ecologically sustainable development path. But the reality is that, under the nose of this department, mining companies have been polluting our ground water resources at an alarming rate through acid mine drainage, and this department has done nothing about that.


Various studies have been undertaken and all have suggested that the Minister of Environmental Affairs and the Minister of Water and Sanitation must clamp down on these mining companies. Both these Ministers have done nothing to prevent mining companies from polluting our environment.


Under this department, we have also witnessed massive commercialisation of our natural resources to the extent that local people in Dwesa-Cwebe in the Eastern Cape get arrested for merely walking to the ocean, which is a declared marine protected area. It is for this reason that the department is struggling to deal with poaching, because it has alienated the very people who would provide the most efficient strategy in fighting rhino poaching.


The privatisation of our natural resources will eventually lead to the destruction of our biodiversity. Linked to this is the dependence of this department on foreign donor agencies to do its critical functions. For its protected-area expansion strategy, the department is dependent on such funding agencies’ global environmental facilities. With very minimal resources coming from the state itself - because these agencies come with stringent conditions – they are not always in sync with local South African dynamics. Our nature is common property. It must never be privatised. Government must lead efforts in the conservation of our nature and not leave this up to foreign agencies. For these reasons, the EFF calls on South African people to reject the ANC in the 2016 local government elections.


Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, while I am not a full-time member of this portfolio committee, the environment is a portfolio that is close to my heart and that of my leader, the hon Buthelezi, who himself has been a long-standing custodian of environmental issues in South Africa. To that end, I have read the report of the portfolio committee and we can associate ourselves with the report and the recommendations therein. I want to say further that the IFP has always enjoyed a cordial working relationship with this department under the leadership of the hon Minister.


We further appreciate the ease of approach with which we can engage senior department officials when our communities are in need of assistance and intervention. A particular case in point was the intended prohibition of the use of ash by local small entrepreneurs on the south coast of KwaZulu-Natal. The friendly co-operation of Deputy Director-General Mr Mark Gordon, Mr B R Dlamini and Ms Michelle Govender, in consultation with the Minister, in being flexible on the use of ash is most commendable and for which I thank the department.


We, however, believe that resources need to be directed towards the question of pollution in our country, which is reaching alarming proportions. The advent of cheap, disposable plastics and Styrofoam are creating an already unfolding environmental disaster. We believe resources should be channelled in this direction.


I would also like to thank the hon chair of the portfolio committee, the hon Jackson Mthembu, and members of this committee for so readily agreeing to attend the screening of the film Blood Lions in which the issue of canned lion hunting was vividly demonstrated. I think it is about time that all of us in this House, and not only the department, take very strong action against these unscrupulous money makers who call themselves professional hunters, hunting animals and selling them and their body parts to the rest of the continent. Thank you.


Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, there is a North American Indian saying, which we all need to think about. It goes: Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realise we cannot eat money.


The Department of Environmental Affairs has the task of protecting our national environment in accordance with the provisions of our Constitution. It has done so consistently well in the past and continues to do so. The NFP gives credit where it is due. The overall performance of the department is noteworthy and it is encouraging to note that the department has spent 99,9% of its allocated budget.


There is, however, plenty of room for improvement. We are all in full agreement with the recommendations of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs as contained in the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report tabled today. In particular, we would urge the entities to heed the Auditor-General’s findings and recommendations. Of great importance for the NFP is the issue of increased interdepartmental co-operation to develop, adjust and co-ordinate a climate change strategy. The severe drought we are currently experiencing and the unusual heat wave in Gauteng and parts of Limpopo, the North West and Mpumalanga give us an indication of what we can increasingly expect in the near future. We need to be prepared.


Climate change is not only a threat to our environment, but also a threat to the people of our country because man and nature are one. Food and water security is at risk, and the need for other government departments to intervene is of crucial importance. Climate change is just too big of an issue and too serious of a threat for one government department to deal with. In conclusion, the NFP support the report. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, this committee has thoroughly considered the performance and expenditure of this department for the 2014-15 financial year. It has carried out its mandate of overseeing the department and its entities and holding the executive accountable.

The committee has the responsibility of assessing service delivery performance with resources that have been allocated to the department and its entities, thereafter making recommendations to Parliament on the Medium-Term Budgetary Policy Statement. This would not have been possible if the department had not been doing its work.


It is the duty of this department to see to it that the environment is protected and the natural resources conserved. Section 24 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa stipulates the following:


Everyone has the right –


  1. to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing; and


  1. to have the environment protected, for the benefit of present and future generations ...


This committee is therefore responsible for seeing that this obligation is carried out by the executive. Sustaining ecosystems, preventing abuse of natural resources and effectively mitigating climate change are some outcomes of Outcome 10, that is delivery agreement. This means therefore that this department can play an important role in bringing solutions to the water crisis in our country.


It should also be appreciated that SA National Parks, or SANParks, has removed from its database a prohibited supplier to which an irregular expenditure of R126 000 had been made. The employees who were responsible for the wasteful expenditure amounting to R1,5 million were subjected to disciplinary hearings. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr J M MTHEMBU: Deputy Speaker, let’s first agree with our colleagues that there are crosscutting issues that this department cannot be solely depended upon to address. The first issue is climate change. A transition to a lower carbon economy is a government-wide phenomenon that can’t rest only on the shoulders of one department. Therefore all of us need to work together on this matter. Equally, combating wildlife crime – for instance, rhino poaching, canned lion hunting and lion welfare - can’t rest only with one department. All of us need to work together in ensuring that our wildlife is protected and conserved.


Another element are the public health challenges arising from coal mining dumps and gold mining dumps including acid mine drainage. On these matters, again, government needs to work together. But, more importantly, in our view, as we have indicated in our report, this Parliament needs to have an overarching strategy that addresses these matters holistically so that they are not just left to the Department of Environmental Affairs.


The portfolio committee, through its quarterly oversight of the year under review, was able to see how earnestly this department works. In fact, to confirm our findings as a portfolio committee, the Financial and Fiscal Commission agreed with us by giving this department a clean bill of health. Equally, the Auditor-General also gave this department and all its entities, be they the SA Weather Service, the SA National Biodiversity Institute, SANParks and Isimangaliso, unqualified and clean audits for the year under discussion – and not only for this year, but for all other years. I therefore commend to this House that the BRRR of this department be accepted and adopted. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


Report accordingly adopted.




Ms M F NKADIMENG: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that in its next sitting:


The House debates building a prosperous Africa based on inclusive growth and sustainable development.


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the NFP, I move that at the next sitting:


That the House -


  1. deliberate on the issue of –


  1. the need for a speedy solution to the current industrial labour action taking place involving employees of Parliament which remains unresolved, and


  1. acknowledging the grievance of the striking employees


Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, I give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:


That the House -


  1. Debates the definition of terrorism –


  1. world wide condemnation has once again followed after Friday terrorism attacks in Paris which killed 129 people and injured about 300,


  1. however, when Hamas indiscriminately throws rockets at innocent civilians in Israel, young and old alike, there is a defining silence from world leader, Is this an act of terrorism or not?


  1. Boko Haram has killed 10 or 1000 innocent Nigerians, mostly Christians,


  1. and displayed millions of others and,


  1. yet there is no strong condemnation or any act of solidarity with the Nigerians from world leaders.


  1. Are Jews and African lives not as important as European lives?


  1. all barbaric act of terrorism, all over the world should be condemned by the free world without discrimination or favour.


Ms A MATSHOBENI: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move that in its next sitting:


The House debates -


  1. the on going of scarcity of beds in Mthatha General Hospital


  1. and due to the many sick patients sleeping on benches awaiting free beds and,


  1. case in point, mama Nomfundo has been sleeping on the bench for the past two nights while she was waiting for a free bed.


Mr A J WILLIAMS: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that in its next sitting:

That this House debates building a prosperous Africa based on inclusive growth and sustainable development.


Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think that a similar motion made by hon Williams, was moved by another colleague in the ANC.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, we will look at that and if they are the same, one of them will fall away.


Mr M H REDELINGHUYSI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA, that in its next sitting:


This House debates the contribution of queer voices asked and present to our struggle for freedom and towards realising a more just society.


Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that in the next sitting:


This House debates promoting a good governance democracy, human rights, justice and rule of law in the African continent.


Dr W G JAMES: Hon Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that at its next sitting:

This House debates combating the spread of sexually transmitted diseases under young South Africans through education.


Dr H CHEWANE: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the EFF that in its next sitting:


That the House debates the bullying tactics of the USA on the trade relations and the agreement and the cowardice of the South African government which has agreed to import chickens and other meat product from America after threats from Barack Obama. [Interjections.]


Ms D D RAPHUTI: Hon Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that it’s next sitting:


The House debates building the continent where the development is people driven, relying particularly on women and youth. I so move.


Mr D AMERICA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that in its next sitting:


This House debates the latest labour force survey released by Stats SA which shows that over 20 million people do not earn an income in our economy.


Ms N P SONTI: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the EFF to move that at its next sitting:


The House debates the phenomenon of young people demanding RDP houses from their grannies.


Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move on behalf of the DA that in its next sitting:


This House debates the silence and inaction of the South African government whilst Burundi faces civil unrest coupled with the killings and displacement of thousands of innocent people. I so move.


Mrs Y N PHOSA: Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that in its next sitting


The House debates reviewing the powers of the school governing bodies.

Mr N CAPA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that in its next sitting:


The House debates international strategic intervention in the fight against the spreading of terrorism in the world.


Motions without notice:


Ms E R Wilson moved without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that Maruleng and its surrounding areas were hit by a terrible hail storm last weekend;


  1. further notes that vast areas were badly damaged as a result of the storm, and that most of the mango and citrus plantations were destroyed;


  1. further notes that the Hlokomela herb farms, which provide both financial and medicinal support to HIV patients in the area, were also destroyed;


  1. acknowledges that the havoc wreaked by this storm will result in the loss of jobs for hundreds of seasonal farm workers in the area and loss of income for many of the emerging farmers, as well as the larger farms in the area;


  1. acknowledges that much of the mangos and citrus in the area are exported and that the storms have resulted in the loss of much foreign income;


  1. further acknowledges that many rural residents’ homes were destroyed or damaged as a result of the hail; and


  1. urges the provincial and municipal structures as well as South African Social Security Agency, SASSA, to urgently assist those in need and provide assistance in the form of food aid and the means to repair and secure their damaged homes.


Agreed to.


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngaphambi kokuthi ngikhulume, awubakhuze. [Uhleko.]


ISEKELASOMLOMO: Sengibakhuzile ma, qhubeka.


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngiphakamisa ukuthi leNdlu –


  1. ibheke indaba yezibhedlela zikahulumeni. Lendaba ingiphethe kabi kakhulu. Abantu abagulayo abasebenzisa lezi zibhedlela abanakiwe nhlobo yilo hulumeni we-ANC; lalelani njalo, lalelani;


  1. Abantu babamba olayini abade ezibhedlela besalinde amakhadi; bayagula njalo;


  1. Ibheke ukuthi kanjalo noma sebewatholile lamakhadi, babamba olayini abade ukuyobona odokotela;


  1. Ibheke ukuthi noma sebebabonile odokotela babamba olayini abade ukuthi bakwazi ukuyothola imishanguzo noma imithi ezobalapha;


  1. Ibheke ukuthi ngenxa yokushoda kwezisebenzi zikahulumeni, lohulumeni ongafuni ukuqasha;


  1. Ibheke ukuthi kanti nemali yokusebenza ebusuku bayakhala ngayo abasebenzi abafana nabahlengikazi bathi abayitholi;
  2. futhi nanezingubo abalala ngazo, yihlazo, zigugile-lokhu abakubiza nge-linen. Nemibhede abalala kuyona namakhabethe anokugqwala;


  1. nento engiyibone yenzeka e-Mahatma Gandhi, iphinde yenzeke e-R K Khan futhi uma uyibuka leyanto iyasehlisa isithunzi somuntu ngoba manje lento iveza ngokusobala umuntu onemali funeka alapheke kangcono bese lomuntu ongenamali yena aphile kabuhlungu aze ashone;


  1. Okubuhlungu kunakho konke engikubonile okwenzeka laphayana, akukho ngisho labantu ababizwa ngokuthi onompilo e-RK Khan abekho labo bantu, bonke phansi ngale e-Welbedacht ababatholi labo bantu;


  1. Bengizocela ukuthi silalelane, awungikhuzele laba abelokho benanela ngingazi bamenyiwe ubani;


  1. Ngakhala nangesibhedlela saseMphumulo, okwakuyi-mission, sakudala ngesikhathi sobandlululo. Lesi sibhedlela sisenjalo, ngoba ngikhuluma nani, asinazo izinsiza. Abantu abagulayo abasuka emakhaya, ngenxa yokuthi kugitshelwa izimoto ngemali, uma beshiyiwe ibhasi abakwazi ukuthola amaphilisi kuze beqiwe isikhathi sokuwasebenzisa;


  1. Ngacela ukuthi abanikezwe phela nabo omahamba nendlwana njengoba kwenzeka emadolobheni ngoba umbuzo lapho uthi kungani emadolobheni ukuhlinzekwa ngezidingo zakhona yenziwa ngendlela egculisayo kodwa emakhaya abantu bakhona abanakiwe.


Ngiyabonga Sihlalo lapho kodwa wojwayela uma sengisukuma ungikhuzele laba bantu. Angizile ukuzodlala la mina, ngizosebenza. Sikhona nge-EFF la sizolwela abantu bakithi enibakhohliwe emakhaya. Ngiyabonga.


Isiphakamiso sichithiwe. (Translation of isiZulu motion follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: Call them to order before I speak, please. [Laughter.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have already done that madam, proceed.


Ms M S KHAWULA: I hereby move


That this House –


  1. looks into the issue of public hospitals. This issue troubles me a lot. Sick people who are using these hospitals are totally not taken care of by this ANC-led government; you need to listen, listen;


  1. people form long queues in hospitals waiting for their cards; and yet they are sick;


  1. also looks into the fact that even if they got these cards, they again form long queues for consulting a doctor;


  1. also looks into the fact that even after they have seen the doctor they form another long queue to receive medication for their treatment;


  1. also looks into the fact that this happens because of personnel shortages in the public sector, due to the fact that this government does not want to appoint enough personnel;


  1. also looks into the issue of night shift payment because workers like nurses are complaining about not being paid this money;


  1. and the linen they are using is also in the shameful state, as it is too tattered. This includes beds they are using as well as cabinets because they look rusty;


  1. and also look into what I have seen happening at Mahatma Gandhi Hospital, and at R K Khan Hospital too, and when you reflect at that issue it surely denigrates people’s dignity because this issue clearly displays the fact that someone who is loaded should receive a better treatment whereas a poor someone should live an uncomfortable life until they die;


  1. what is most painful is what I have seen happening there, one will not find even community health workers at RK Khan Hospital - those people are not available there - even down there at Welbedacht they are not available to all these people;


  1. I would request that we listen to one another, kindly call to order those who are concurring with me because I do not know who requested them to do that;


  1. I have also complained about the Mphumulo Hospital, which was a mission before, in the olden days of apartheid. This hospital is still in that state, because as I am speaking to you now, it is without facilities. The sick people who are coming from the rural areas, and because they use cars which must be paid for, and if they missed a bus they cannot receive their tablets and as a result their treatment is defaulted;


  1. I have since requested that they should also be provided with the mobile clinics like it is done in the urban areas because what I am asking myself is that why are urban areas are served satisfactorily whereas people living in the rural areas are not catered for.


Thank you Chairperson, in front there but you must always call these people to order every time I rise to speak. Because I did not come here to play, I came here to work. We are here on behalf of the EFF we have come to fight for our people in the rural areas whom you have forgotten. Thank you.

The motion is rejected.]


Rev K R J Meshoe moved without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes with sadness that another police officer was killed on duty on Monday night after a shoot-out with a group of heavily armed suspects in Ginginglovu near Eshowe;


  1. further notes with great concern that more than 60 police officers have been killed so far this year;


  1. acknowledges that there are a few officers in the police service who are brutal and who engage in criminal activities, a practice that should be condemned in the strongest possible terms;


  1. further notes that reports that Western Cape Police Communications Head said that the police were assessing security in Masiphumelele township to determine when it would be safe to send in a mobile police station, because police officers are now becoming concerned about their own safety before they move into dangerous areas, which is highly regrettable; and


  1. calls on government to address their fears and high stress levels that they work under, and ensure that successful prosecutions result in the stiffest punishment allowed, which is life imprisonment.


Agreed to.


Mr A M Shaik Emam moved without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health released statistics which show that, from 2014 to date, a total of 20 013 women were admitted to different hospitals within the province as a result of incomplete abortions;


  1. further notes that during the same period, 1 455 women were admitted to various hospitals with abortions that have turned septic;


  1. acknowledges that despite abortion being legal in South Africa, there is still a stigma surrounding abortions and this stigma is compelling women to have illegal abortions;


  1. condemns the proliferation of illegal backstreet places where unsafe abortions are performed; and


  1. encourages all law enforcement agencies to make every effort to locate and close down all places where illegal backstreet abortions are performed and which pose a serious health risk to young mothers and women.


Agreed to.


Mr M U Kalako moved without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes with great shock the killing of 129 people and the injuring of more than 180 people in France on Friday, 13 November 2015;


  1. further notes that this act of cowardice was unleashed by eight gunmen and suicide bombers, who simultaneously attacked and struck at the revellers at a concert, diners in bars and restaurants, as well as fans at a soccer match;


  1. condemns this barbaric act of cowardice;


  1. believes that there is no justification for acts of terrorism for whatever cause;


  1. assures the people of France that they are not alone in their mourning, the world is mourning with them;


  1. calls upon the nations of the world to unite and to close ranks against the fight against terrorism;


  1. conveys its condolences to the families of the deceased, the people of France and their government during these trying times; and


  1. wishes those who are injured a speedy recovery.


Agreed to.

Ms H O Hlophe moved without notice:


That the House –


  1. notes that Joseph Motwe, who is the secretary of National Education Health and Allied Workers Union, Nehawu in the Johannesburg region is charging community health workers from Soweto clinics and Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital money to secure work for them;


  1. further notes that Nehawu is a union affiliated to Cosatu, a tripartite partner of the ruling party the ANC; and


  1. that Motwe is using this advantage which gives him easy access to those in power to further enrich himself and the corrupt union he represents;


  1. acknowledge that poor health workers have been charged between R500 and R1500 by this individual, under the name of Nehawu; and


  1. have tried to open a case against this person but were threatened with death by the very same person and his ANC comrades;
  2. further acknowledges that the EFF in Soweto marched to Baragwanath to make management aware of this matter but a month later there was a counter march by Nehawu in support of corruption;


  1. calls on the Minister of Health to intervene and eject corrupt elements who abuse such a critical component of our health system; lastly


  1. further calls the people of Soweto to reject the ANC in next year’s local government elections.


Motion falls away.


Mr M S F de Freitas moved without notice:


That the House –


  1. welcomes the World Day of Remembrance for Road Traffic Victims held on the third Sunday of November each year;


  1. notes that this important day was launched in 1993 by the United Kingdom road victim charity RoadPeace and promoted by them nationally and internationally until it was adopted by the United Nations on 26 October 2005 as the appropriate acknowledgement for victims of road traffic crashes and their families;


  1. recognises that the loss of lives on the road and the suffering of bereaved and injured road crash victims deserve much greater recognition than has been provided until now;


  1. calls on all South Africans to drive safely on our roads, be vigilant, take enough breaks and abstain from drinking and driving as we approach the festive season; and


  1. conveys its heartfelt condolences to those South Africans who have lost loved ones in crashes on our roads.


Agreed to.


Ms C N Majeke moved without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that a businesswomen, Mulalo Simeti, has started building new classrooms and toilets for a dangerously dilapidated rural school in Limpopo that she once attended;


  1. further notes that she got to know about the status quo of the school when she read the news report that was published on News24;


  1. recognises that the intervention to build the school has been welcomed by the school governing body of Bale Primary School and that building is underway;


  1. commends her for what she has done in contributing to the development of the country;


  1. calls on all business people, especially multinational corporations who do businesses in South Africa to continue contributing to development, and in particular to building schools; and


  1. wishes Mulalo Simeti all the best in her business and her future endeavours.


Agreed to.


Ms N R BHENGU: I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:


That the House -


  1. welcomes the launch of the Antiracism Network as led by the Ahmed Kathrada and the Nelson Mandela Foundations on Saturday 14 November 2015 in Johannesburg;


  1. notes that this network is the first in what is hoped to be a series of practical interventions in dealing with racism;


  1. further notes that among the aims of the network is to expose the underlying causes and fix the damage caused by the racism and discrimination in the country;


  1. acknowledges that the network has signed up to 60 civil organisations to the cause of racism;


  1. recalls that racism continues to plague South Africa 21 years after the fall of apartheid;


  1. believes that through these networks South Africa will see a more co-ordinated approach to addressing racism; and
  2. lastly congratulates and commend the Ahmed Kathrada and the Nelson Mandela Foundations on their efforts to address racism. I thank you.


Motion objected, not agreed to.


Nks N P SONTI: Sihlalo weNdlu, ndenza isaziso sokuba xa le Ndlu ihlala kwakhona, ndiza kwenza isiphakamiso:


Sokuba le Ndlu –


  1. Ikhe ijonge isimanga esathi senzeka ngeyeThupha 01 ngowama-2012 e-Aquarius Platinum Mine kwilokishi yaseSondela eRustenburg;


  1. kwabulawa abasebenzi abasibhozo bebulawa ngemipu ngamapolisa noonogada xa babeqhankqalazela ukusebenza ngaphaya kwexesha;


  1. uninzi lwabo lwalimala baze abanye baphulukana namehlo, xa kunamhlanje ababoni; ukuza kuthi ga namhlanje abakafumani mbuyekezo;


  1. okumanyukunyezi ke abakwazi nokufumana umsebenzi nale nkampani yabafaka kuluhlu lwabantu abanamatyala;


  1. into eyenzekayo kubo ngoku kukuba bayafa yindlala, imihla nezolo; kuye kubenzima nokuba bangcwatywe;


  1. abanye babo bahlala, belala etiphini, besitya ukutya okubolileyo kuba belambile;


  1. nceda ke rhulumente baphela abantu sijongile; enkosi Sihlalo.


Kwavunyelwana. (Translation of isiXhosa draft resolution follows.)


[Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson of the House, I move that, at the next sitting of the House, I will move on behalf of the EFF:


That this House –


  1. looks at something unusual which happened on 1 August 2012 at the Aquarius Platinum Mine at the Sondela township in Rustenburg;


  1. notes that 8 workers were shot dead by the police and the security when they were protesting against working overtime;


  1. further notes that most of them were injured and others lost their eyes, as a result they are blind today; until now they have not received any compensation;


  1. acknowledges that what is appalling is that they cannot even get employment even from the company that has included them on the list of people who has debt;


  1. further acknowledges that what is happening to them now is that they are dying of hunger, everyday; it is even difficult to bury them;


  1. notes that some of them stay at the dumping site and eat rotten food because they are hungry;


  1. appeals to government to take note that people are dying while we are watching; thank you Chairperson.


Motion agreed to.]


Mr S C MNCWABE: I move without notice:


That this House -


  1. notes that two serial rapists, who terrorised women over a period of five months, have been sentenced to twelve life sentences in Pietermaritzburg, in KwaZulu-Natal on Wednesday, 11 November 2015;


  1. further notes that Nkosinathi Ngcobo, aged 23, and Sifiso Buthelezi, aged 19, committed these crimes in 2013 in the Luvisi area of Nquthu under the district of Umzinyathi in KwaZulu-Natal;


  1. acknowledges that the victims were aged between 16 and 37 and were threatened with knives, robbed and raped;


  1. congratulates the SA Police Service and the prosecution for the thorough investigation; and


  1. encourages all SA Police Service members and prosecutors to continue to bring rapists to justice and to rid our communities from this scourge.


Agreed to.


Ms H S BOSHOFF: I move without notice:


That this House -


  1. notes with concern that the ANC government in Mpumalanga is failing the learners throughout the whole province;


  1. also notes that the infrastructure backlogs implementation plan signed off on 07 April 2015 states that 92% of all schools in Mpumalanga live between 11 and 100% of their structures replaced at a cost of R20 billion;


  1. also notes that the department has many challenges to deal with and more especially with classroom backlogs;


  1. currently there is a need for 3 369 classrooms across the province;


  1. further notes that a construction of a school in Middleburgh to a value of R44 million which was scheduled to begin in April 2015, has also been delayed;


  1. again notes that a boarding school in Kangala District Municipality is also behind schedule;


  1. for this project the department has only managed to spend 12% of the first quarter’s infrastructure budget for the 2015-16 financial year and although the term ends in March 2016 it is unlikely that this project would be completed as planned;


  1. acknowledges that education is an important vehicle to ensure that opportunities exists for the youth to empower themselves yet the Mpumalanga Department of Education is excluding learners from the opportunity for a better education;


  1. further acknowledges that under a DA government this province would ensure that schools with sufficient classrooms are built to ensure accessible education to all learners.


Motion objected, not agreed to.


Mr M U KALAKO: I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that on Sunday, 15 November 2015, Durban hosted the 8th SABC Crown Gospel Music Awards 2015;


  1. further notes that this is one of the well recognised events in South Africa and abroad where the winners are awarded a crown for their sterling contribution in the gospel music industry;


  1. recalls that this prestigious event is a platform to acknowledge and salute the sons and daughters in the gospel music industry under various categories;


  1. acknowledges that the winners on the night include the following individuals –


  1. Best Gospel Artist Song - Dumi Mkokstadi;


  1. Lifetime Achievement Award - Lindelani Mkhize, Jabu Hlongwane and Mthunzi Namba, Joyous Celebration founders;


  1. Best Gospel Artist - Andile Kamajola;
  2. Salt Award - Dr Andre Robert;


  1. Best of Africa - Uche (Nigeria); and


  1. Best Female Artist - Lusanda Mcinga; and


  1. congratulates all the winners of the awards and commends the founder and president of the World Gospel Powerhouse, Ms Zanele Mbokazi for her vision in motivating gospel singers worldwide.


Agreed to.


Dr H CHEWANE: I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that the education is a basic right right that no child should ever be denied because of the child’s socioeconomic status;


  1. further notes that this right to free basic education is not enjoyed by most South Africans such as a Grade 4 learner Njabulo Phiri at L C Ngidi Primary School in Chaewelo in Soweto;


  1. acknowledges that Njabulo Phiri has been denied his assessment report for the past two years at the school simple because the parents cannot afford to pay the R200 school fee required;


  1. they have been progressing him from one class to another without giving him his record;


  1. further acknowledges that his parents went to the school and sign an indigent form that the school itself provided to prove without doubt that the parents were indigent people who could not afford to pay for school fees;


  1. knows that last week the school gave all learners who are unable to pay school fees, like Phiri, letters informing that they must pay for school fees, failing which they will be denied their reports again this year and will not be allowed back to school the following year;


  1. calls on the Department of Basic Education to intervene as a matter of urgency in this school to stop unscrupulous teachers and school management team from abusing poor school kids;


  1. further calls on the Department of Basic Education to strengthen its capacity to implement its own indigent policy and no-fee schools; and


  1. call on the poor people of South Africa whose right to basic education has been denied to reject the ANC government in the 2016 local elections.


Motion objected, not agreed to.


Ms S J NKOMO: I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that one of the first group of Indian people in South Africa arrived in Durban on November 16, 1860 on board the Truro from Madras to work in the sugar cane plantations in Port Natal;


  1. further notes that the group was made up of 197 men, 89 women and 59 children, who were all indentured labourers;
  2. acknowledges that some returned to India after their term was up and those who remained established themselves as industrial and railway workers;


  1. further acknowledges that today the province of KwaZulu-Natal has the highest population of Indian people outside of India; and


  1. recognises the great contribution made by the Indian community to nation-building in South Africa.


Agreed to.


Mr M N PAULSEN: I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the lack of personnel at the Maheking Fire Department and its inability to absorb National Rural Youth Service Corps, NARYSEC trainees;


  1. further notes that a regular shift at the fire station should comprise of two controller attendants and 15 personnel comprising fire fighters and station officers;
  2. also notes that the Maheking Fire Department is attended by three to four fire fighters, one controller attendant and one officer;


  1. further acknowledges that when the fire breaks out from the shops or residences the properties will be lost because the municipality is simply under staffed;


  1. also notes that the municipality has failed to advance employees through formal training and education because some staff have more than 30 years experience


  1. further notes that vacant posts at the fire station are filled by applicants from outside of Mahikeng despite qualifications of those at the station who have taken upon themselves to advance the studies and qualifications;


  1. it is unacceptable for Extended, Public Works Programme, EPWP beneficiaries who have never had any training to go and extinguish fires as is the situation since 2014; and


  1. calls on South Africans to reject the ANC during next year’s local government elections.

Motion objected, not agreed to.


Mr M L SHELEMBE: I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that service delivery protests against the lack of water have been flaring up in the Umkhanyakude District Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal for the past two weeks in and around Jozini and Mtubatuba;


  1. further notes that the KwaMsane Community Hall was set alight yesterday, a vehicle was burnt out and a high-jacked truck was used to block roads during the weekend and tyres burnt at the KwaMsane turnoff from the N2 during the protests last night;


  1. acknowledges that the protest is likely to have a devastating impact on innocent people and on tourism in the world renowned isiMangaliso Wetland conservation area and this will affect employment and economic prosperity of the Umkhanyakude district in the long run; and


  1. calls on the Minister of Water and Sanitation to intervene and find a solution to the worsening situation in order to prevent the unrest from spreading out of control to other districts in KwaZulu-Natal, where the drought is becoming worse and the delivery of water is failing under the current programme of the provincial government.


Agreed to.


Ms N R BHENGU: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes that today, Tuesday, 17 November, is the birthday of the Deputy President of the Republic, hon Cyril Ramaphosa;


  1. further notes that the 63 year old Ramaphosa was born on the 17th of November 1952 in Johannesburg and his family was moved from Western Native Township to Soweto in 1962;


  1. acknowledges that comrade Matamela Cyril Ramaphosa is a South African politician, businessman, activist and a trade union leader who has served as the Deputy President of the country since 2014;


  1. further acknowledge that he is a well respected and skilful negotiator and strategist whose played a crucial role during the negotiations to bring about a peaceful end to apartheid to steer the country towards its first democratic elections in April 1994;


  1. remembers that comrade Ramaphosa played a pivotal role in the building up of the most biggest and the most powerful trade union in the republic, the National Union of Mineworkers and also played a crucial role in the formation of Cosatu;


  1. recalls that comrade Ramaphosa was elected as the first general secretary of the union, a position he had until he resigned in June 1991 following his election as the secretary general of the ANC;


  1. recognises that during the first democratic elections in 1994, hon Ramaphosa became a Member of Parliament and was elected the chairperson of the constitutional assembly on 24 May 1994 and played a central role in the government of national unity; and


  1. also wishes Deputy President Ramaphosa a happy birthday and many happy returns. [Applause.] Salute him for his continuing and unwavering selflessness, determination and commitment to struggle for total emancipation of the people of South Africa.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, I have a point of order. If you are gong to attack somebody in the House you must do so by way of a substantive motion, not that type of motion.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: on behalf of the widows of mineworkers that were massacred in Marikana ... [Interjections.] We reject such a motion.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, are you objecting to the motion. There is a motion. Are you objecting to the motion or not? Deputy President on behalf of the Presiding Officers we wish you a happy birthday. [Applause.]


Motion not agreed to.


Ms N V MENTE: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the high unemployment rate in the Northern Cape;


  1. further notes that despite the claims made by the ruling party of reduced unemployment, the Northern Cape still stands at 45% of unemployment amongst young people;


  1. acknowledges that the Northern Cape is one of the richest provinces in terms of minerals yet unemployment remains high;


  1. further acknowledges that the mines surrounding are not contributing towards the reduction of unemployment nor sticking to the commitment of the social labour plans as agreed when awarded mining licences;


  1. further acknowledges that young people in the province remain unskilled, unemployable and disgruntled while the ANC heavyweights even some which are sitting in this very House, hon Mbete and the acting President own shares in the mines that abuse our people;
  2. note that although they have political power and authority to instruct the mining bosses to take care of the future leaders, they choose to turn a blind eye and enrich themselves;


  1. call on the ANC government to stop misleading the public about unemployment statistics in the country particularly the Northern Cape. Give the public the correct figures;


  1. further call on government to nationalise the mines so that our people can benefit;


  1. call on all young people in the Northern Cape to remain united and fight for what belongs to them;


  1. further call on the young people in the province to reject the ANC government come the 2016 local government elections.


Motion not agreed to


Mr T RAWULA: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -

  1. notes that the ANC government does not want to introduce the National Minimum Wage and does not want to ban labour brokers because they do not want to pay decent wages;


  1. further note that the former Executive Mayor of the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality, Mr Zanoxolo Wayile and his former Deputy Executive Mayor, Nancy Sihlwayi signed an agreement which SA Municipal Workers Union, Samwu, to stop using the services of labour brokers;


  1. further note after that agreement was signed at the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality, where the groot man, where the Chief Deputy of the ANC comes from, that municipality sourced more than 90 workers through labour brokers, breaching the agreement they signed with Samwu;


  1. condemn the ANC for perpetuating apartheid economy and wage patterns;


  1. call for the complete ban of labour brokers;


  1. call for the introduction of the National Minimum Wage of R4500;


  1. further call on all the South Africans to reject the ANC in the 2016 local government elections for failing to introduce a national minimum wage to address the high levels of inequality in South Africa.


I was in South Africa


Motion not agreed to


Mr N S MATIASE: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes whilst capitalist states are generally corrupt, corruption under the ANC government has been endemically perfected by effective and corrupt leaders;


  1. notes because of this perfected corruption by the ANC, corrupt and unethical conduct seems to have been accepted and appears good to those who depend on the government for survival;


  1. further notes that the effectively corrupt leaders and the model similar to the late Rafic Hariri, the Prime Minister of Lebanon, is notably spread and eminent in our country today;


  1. Rafic was a political leader who saw his paternalist, clientist networks based on patronage as means to personal wealth, engaged in corrupt practices and produced useless results to mislead our people in almost notoriously corrupt, less transparent and accountable environment;


  1. Lebanon was ranked number 136 out 192 countries in the Corruption Perception Index, just like South Africa;


  1. Transparency International Corruption Perception Index highlights that South Africa is gradually eroding the trust the public has in the government; and


  1. South Africa just as Lebanon, ranks number 67 out of 192 countries, indicating a country that is sliding deeper into a crisis as a result of corruption;


  1. Further note that South Africa, just like Lebanon, has leaders who appear to be effective by thriving on hopelessness and hopeless circumstances of our people; and South Africa is engulfed by corruption and yet leaders who continue to do so act as if they are empathic, compassionate and caring whereas they are not;


  1. note that Transparency International defines corruption as: “abuse of entrusted power for personal gain”, As evidenced in the Nkandla scandal


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order Hon members.




(10)       note that South Africa in all likelihood is led by not so effective but a corrupt leadership. Now, tell us, if the President and his network of clientist corrupt Premiers like Ace Magashule in the Free State, Supra Mahumapelo in the North West and David Mabuza in Mpumalanga are not abusing entrusted power for personal gain.


  1. As jy dit nie kan nie sien nie dan is jy ʼn blinde mol.

(Translation of Afrikaans sentence follows.)


[If you can’t see this, then you are a blind bat.]


  1. call on our people especially the poor to reject the ANC in the 2016 municipal elections.


Motion not agreed to.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair, I have a point of order. The Minister of Home Affairs was busy shouting on point while our member was on the floor. Why he didn’t return the flowers money from the credit card that he used from the department.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): that is not a point of order. Order! hon members, Order. [Interjections.]


Mr M S MBATHA: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. note that 21 years later transformation in the pay TV market has been very elusive, to date there is only two players in existence for over 54 million citizens;


  1. further notes that the continuing silence of the Minister of Communication is also intolerable;


  1. call on the Minister to ... [Inaudible.] this sector, to make sure the sector is more black-owned than what it currently is;


  1. congratulate the new community TV players, Siyaya TV and Bakatlang TV;


  1. also reject Naspers’ dominance of this market; and


  1. call upon the private sector to support the community TV initiatives happening around the country;


  1. call on our citizens and communities to reject the ANC in the forthcoming local government elections.


Motion not agreed to


Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I move without notice:


That the House -


  1. notes the intention of the Western Cape provincial government to close off Lehlohonolo Primary School in Gugulethu;
  2. further notes that this primary school has been in existence for over 50 years and is one of only a few primary schools that caters for Sesotho speaking children in Cape Town and accommodates pupils from as far as Kraaifontein and Khayelitsha;


  1. acknowledges that the Western Cape provincial government is specifically targeting this primary school because they say that the Western Cape has three official languages and Sesotho is not one of the official languages in this province;


  1. further acknowledges that South Africa is not a federal state and the Western Cape therefore cannot exclude other South African children on the basis of the languages they speak;


  1. notes it is blatantly unconstitutional and exposes the DA’s hypocrisy and lack empathy towards black pupils;


  1. further notes that the school currently has over 280 pupils who if the school closes will be deprived of their constitutional right to be taught in the language of their choice;
  2. notes the DA’s contention that it is a waste of taxpayer’s money to keep the school operational is a gross insult to many poor students who want to study in the language of their choice;


  1. acknowledges that the DA has done the same thing at Fezeka High School by not employing Sesotho teachers, further alienating Sesotho speaking children;


  1. notes it is also for this reason that they want to close Lehlohonolo because they say they will not have a high school that offers Sesotho;


  1. further acknowledges that that the parents of pupils at the school have been to sent from pillar to post by the district office of the Department of Education and the MEC; and are still none the wiser about what will befall the school next year;


  1. call on the Premier of this province and the national Minister of Education to intervene in this matter;


  1. ensure that these parents and pupils are not frustrated any further;
  2. further call on the Department of Education not to treat Sesotho speaking pupils as if they don’t belong to this country; and to immediately stop any attempts to close the school;


  1. calls on all South Africans to reject the ANC and the DA especially here in the Western Cape in the 2016 local government elections.


Motion not agreed to.


Nks M S KHAWULA: Bengicela lapho ngaphambili. Kunabantu abangene ngephutha kuleli phalamende okwakufanele baye kwiphalamende lezingane. Bayahlupha laba bantwana, uMahambehlala. Bengizocela lento uyibhale phansi ukuthi abahambe baye kwiphalamende lezingane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: I have a request House Chairperson. There are people who came to this Parliament by mistake who were supposed to be in the children’s Parliament. These children are problematic, especially hon Mahambehlala. I would request that you write this down that they must go to the children’s Parliament.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngeke sikwazi ukuqhubeka lapha ngoba asizwa lutho. Asizile ukuzodlala lana. (Translation of isiZulu sentence follows.)


[Ms M S KHAWULA: We won’t be able to proceed here, because we can’t hear a thing. We are not here to play.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): hon members, members are moving motions without notice. Now in order for the House to decide whether the House supports or object towards it, it is important that we listen and hear what is being said. It is not conducive to the business of the House to engage in activities that makes it very difficult for other members who want to hear what is happening in the House to follow what is going on. I suggest that if there are any members who are not serious about the business of this House to leave the House and go outside please. Really, it is becoming increasingly difficult, from the front, to hear what hon members are saying. We should really treat the House with the seriousness that it deserves and it applies to everyone.


Mr T RAWULA: Chair, I move without notice:

That the House -


  1. notes that Local Government Sector Education and Training Authority, LGSETA took a decision between 2011 and 2014 to do away with the clustering of provincial offices in order to ensure quality, adequate and proper service delivery of skills development in the local government sector;


  1. further note that it is disappointing that the Northern Cape, despite its geographical vastness, is still clustered with the Free State and access to LGSETA office for skills development service remains a huge challenge for the Northern Cape municipalities;


  1. acknowledges that in addition to the challenge of distance and vastness is the fact that LGSETA is lacking personnel in the Free State province;


  1. notes it has one fieldworker and the provincial manager to service the two provinces both of which are geographically vast;


  1. further acknowledges that as a result of the challenge the provincial office in the Free State relies on a brokered service arrangement where the training providers who are driven by a motive for profit are filling the void yet compromise the standard of required ccreditation and quality assurance in the sector;


  1. call on the Minister to commit on abolishing this clustering of provincial offices and audit the personnel provision in the LGSETA in the Free State office since it affects service delivery in skills development on the municipalities in both provinces; and


  1. request a commitment on timeframes;


  1. further call on all South Africans, both in the Free State and the Northern Cape, to reject the ANC in the 2016 local government elections.


Motion not agreed to.


Mr N S MATIASE: Chair, I move without notice:


That the House -

  1. note that last week the EFF brought to the attention of the House shacks that were being distributed by the ANC government in Alexandra as part of their Human Settlement Policy;


  1. acknowledge that the Deputy Minister of Human Settlement, who was here, in the absence of the Minister, admitted she does not know what is happening in Gauteng and didn’t dispute the evidence presented by the EFF;


  1. further note that it turns out to be the policy of the ANC to distribute shacks which is widespread far beyond Alexandra in Gauteng;


  1. note in a township of Bergsig in the Northern Cape, the ANC provincial government is building shacks and the Namakwa local municipality is already planning the provision of municipal services around the shacks;


  1. condemn the ANC government for failing to provide decent houses, subjecting people to overcrowded poor living conditions, forcing people to live like pigs;


  1. call on all people of South Africa to reject the ANC government for failing to provide decent housing;


  1. further acknowledge that people cannot afford decent houses because they continue to earn below the living wage and the ANC government does not want to introduce a national minimum wage.


Motion not agreed to.




(Member’s Statement)


Ms N MOTAPA (ANC): Hon House Chair, Speaker, 16 members of the DA in the Western Cape defected to the ruling party on Monday, 9 November 2015. [Applause.] The DA leaders in the West Coast’s Matzikama region are so tired of being misled by the DA and are promising to even bring many more of their unhappy former colleagues over to the ANC. These former constituency officers swopped their blue DA T-shirts for the yellow of the ANC as they embraced a brighter future.


One of the DA leaders in that region William Nutt not only rejected the DA but also apologised for the suffering he helped bring to farm workers in the Boland under the DA banner.  Another leader, Berty Jones said the DA has taken farm workers for fools. According to them there is no growth for poor black people in the DA and there is no acknowledgement given to their cultures.


The ANC welcomes in its ranks these members who realised that their trust in the DA was misplaced and that the ANC was their only political home. After considering the future of this country, these members felt they could no longer effectively contribute unless they joined a party that was going to help the country achieve its potential. 


Siyaqhuba ... (Translation of isiZulu sentence follows.)


[We are moving.]


Mošito o tswela pele. (Translation of Sepedi sentence follows.)

[The beat goes on.]




(Member’s Statement)


Nksz Z B N BALINDLELA (DA): Sihlalo, kwiveki ephelileyo uMphathiswa uNancy Sihlwayi, eMpuma Koloni, uye wayalela ukuba umntwana omhlophe angavunyelwa ukuya kwinkampu yolutsha ePort Alfred. Into eyothusayo yeyokuba uye wamisela inkqubo yoluleko kuMnumzana uMasiza Mazizi, noligosa leenkqubo zolutsha kwiSebe lezoPhuhliso loLuntu, kuba engayivumelanga inkqubo yocalucalulo.


Le nto yenziwa nguMphathiswa uSihlwayi ayakhi ngaphandle kokuba ichitha amalinge nembali yethu yokwakha ubunye njengoko oobawo bethu abasandulelayo abatshona kuMendi, nabo babengoobawo abefundisi, ooTiyo Soga, ooBeyers Naude, ooMama uHelen Suzman, nootata ababalulekileyo ooVan Zyl Slabbert. Yiyo loo nto i-DA iqhwabela uSihlalo wale Ndlu, uMama uDidiza ngokoluleke eli lungu le-EFF, uMhlekazi uNdlozi ngokuthi inkokeli yethu engumbhexeshi nonezandla ezaziwayo, kuthiwe yinkwenkwanyana. [Laphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa member’s statement follows.)


[Ms Z B N BALINDLELA (DA): Chairperson, last week Minister Nancy Sihlwayi, Eastern Cape, instructed that white children was not allowed to take part in the state sponsored youth event in Port Alfred. What is surprising is that she decided to initiate disciplinary action against Mr Masiza Mazizi, who is the official responsible for Youth Development in the Department of Social Development, because he did not allow discrimination.


The behaviour of Minister Sihlwayi is not acceptable and it is not going to take us anywhere; it is going to divide us and take us back to the era of apartheid. An era where our forefathers were drowned and died on the ship called S S Mendi, and the missionaries, Tiyo Soga, Beyers Naude, Madam Helen Suzman and notably Van Zyl Slabbert. That is why the DA supported the Chairperson of the House, Ms T Didiza by disciplining the member of the EFF, hon Ndlozi for not respecting our leader who is our Whip who is taking his job seriously, and referred to him as a little boy. [Time expired.] [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr M N PAULSEN (EFF): House Chair, the children of Matloding, Masamana in Mathateng, in the North West, face a bleak future as they are forced to walk for more than 13km on a daily basis to Tshidilamolomo village to attend Marlowe Middle School and Mothibinyane High School because there are no schools in their area. These children are exposed to abuse, violence and insults when they travel to school, which has led to sporadic acts of violence and community protest between communities. Children were injured and were refused access to Tshidilamolomo clinic due to protest as a result they were transported more than 25km to the nearest clinic. Two sites were allocated to Motlading for constructions of schools as early as 2005 and government approved schools in 2007.


The provincial government allocated resources for construction of these schools but because the Premier of the North West is in the business, suppliers are paid s before they deliver. Schools were never built and the money was stolen. The right to free basic education is not enjoyed by most South Africans because the ANC-led government continues to subject children, in particular black children, to inferior education system. Thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr N CAPA (ANC): The ANC has made a commitment to increase access to secure and decent housing for all through a variety of government’s housing programmes. Such programmes include the conversion of hostels into family housing units. Just last week, on 11 November 2015, 60 Johannesburg residents were handed over keys to their modern and affordable family housing units in Diepkloof, Soweto.


The 60 people are joining a number of hostel residents in Johannesburg who are swapping their dormitories, which they each shared with 15 others, for decent houses with all the modern facilities. Each housing unit consists of two bedrooms, a lounge and an open-plan kitchen, ablution facilities, running water and prepaid electricity.


This move is a continuation of a concerted drive to make a clean break with the apartheid’s housing policies, which saw workers from outside Johannesburg housed in single-sex hostels, with 16 people per dormitory, with no privacy or space to keep their belongings. Indeed, the ANC is serious about changing lives.




(Member’s Statement)

Mr N SINGH (IFP): Chairperson, the increasing number of muti killings is a serious cause for concern, the latest being the discovery of the decapitated body of a 23-year-old man, Nawaaz Khan, whose body was found last week after a suspected muti killing, in Umzinto, KwaZulu-Natal.


One of the three suspects arrested, a traditional healer, allegedly asked the other suspects to, “bring him an Indian head” to solve his problems. A week before another headless body of a woman was found, while in the Durban High Court the trial regarding the alleged killing of Desiree Murugan for muti continues. Such types of killings are increasingly taking root in our communities and it would seem that traditional healers and sangomas are sometimes the initiators of these crimes.


Government must urgently intervene, as it did with the registration of initiation schools after the increasing number of deaths of initiates. It must ensure the proper registration and monitoring of traditional healers to stop these burgeoning requests by sangomas for body parts. However, according to the Traditional Healers Organisation, real sangomas do not kill or use body parts. These organisations need to lobby government and work with it to put a stop to these monstrous crimes. Whilst police must be commended for making swift arrests, at the same time there are reported cases of policemen themselves being complicit in these heinous crimes. This must stop and proper regulation of traditional healers’ organisations must follow.




(Member’s Statement)


Dr C P MULDER (VF Plus): Agb Huisvoorsitter, die ANC moet vandag vir die mense van Suid-Afrika en in besonder die bruin gemeenskap sê dat hul reg om hulself te definieer respekteer word. Dit is nie vir die ANC om daaroor te besluit nie. Die ANC sekretaris-generaal Gwede Mantashe het onlangs aan bruin mense gesê dat hulle moet aanvaar dat hulle eintlik swart is. Hulle besluit sommer namens hulle. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Dr C P MULDER FF Plus): Hon House Chairperson, the ANC has to tell the people of South Africa and especially the colored community today that their right to define themselves is respected. It is not for the ANC to decide. The ANC Secretary General Gwede Mantashe recently said to colored people that they should accept that they are actually black. They simply took that decision on their behalf! [Interjections.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members!


Dr C P MULDER: ... [Onhoorbaar.] ... opportunisme om stemme te werf wanneer dit hulle pas. Wanneer dit eintlik by die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste kom, besluit die ANC egter dat bruines nie swart genoeg is om werk te kry of om bevorder te word in die nuwe Suid-Afrika nie, en waar ras meer as ooit die bepalende faktor vir feitlik alles gewoord het.


Mantashe dink bruin mense is dom en dat hy hulle kan misbruik. Dieselfde ANC wat aan hulle vertel dat hulle swart is, se beleid maak dat daar teen hulle gediskrimineer word. Môre dien hierdie vraagstuk voor die Grondwethof. Die hof moet môre uitspraak lewer in die saak waarin 10 werkers van die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste saam met Solidariteit veg teen die gevolge van regstellende aksie wat wit en bruin mense benadeel. Die 10 se vanne is Davids, February, Jonkers, Fortuin, Baartman, Merkeur, Abrahams, Jordaan, Kotze en Wehr.


Die saak gaan egter oor veel meer as net die 10 mense. Die saak is bepalend vir die toekoms van alle bruin mense, veral in die Wes-Kaap waar hulle ’n meerderheid is. Die VF Plus gee daarmee ons volle steun aan hulle wat teen hierdie verdrukking van regstellende aksie veg.

Die ANC kan dieselfde tyd ook vir die land sê hoe lank hy nog wil voortgaan met hierdie onderdrukkende beleid wat niks anders as rassisme is nie. Dit is net so immoreel as enigiets wat onder die vorige bedeling gebeur het. Verkeerd bly verkeerd. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)


[... [Inaudible.] ... opportunism to gain votes when it suits them. However, when it comes to the Department of Correctional Services, the ANC decides that coloreds are not black enough in order to get jobs or get promoted in the new South Africa, and where race has become the determining factor for almost everything more than ever.


Mantashe thinks colored people are stupid and that he can abuse them. It is the same ANC that tells them they are black, who has a policy that discriminates against them. This court case will serve before the Constitutional Court tomorrow. This court has to make a ruling on a case in which 10 workers from the Department of Correctional Services together with Solidarity are fighting against the consequences of affirmative action that adversely affects white and colored people. The surnames of these 10 people are Davids, February, Jonkers, Fortuin, Baartman, Mervel, Abrahams, Jordaan, Kotze and Wehr.


However, this court case is about more than just these 10 people. This court case will be a determining factor with regard to the future of all colored people, especially in the Western Cape where they are a majority. The FF Plus hereby gives our full support to those who struggles against this oppression of affirmative action.


The ANC can, at the same time, tell the country for how long it wants to continue with this oppressive policy which is nothing other than racism. It is just as immoral as anything that had happened during the previous dispensation. Wrong is wrong.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr L RAMATLAKANE (ANC): The ANC welcomes the unveiling of the mobile office for the Road Accident Fund, RAF, which is aimed at increasing accessibility for claimants in far-flung areas. The mobile office was unveiled by Minister Dipuo Peters at the Mandela Park Stadium in Khayelitsha during World Remembrance Day.


The mobile office is an extension of the RAF’s current community outreach campaign called, RAF on the Road. It is the first of its kind innovation geared at reaching out to people who live on farms, in small towns, and in rural areas who have previously struggled to access the RAF.


This initiative is thus informed by the ANC’s commitment to implement and advance the constitutional imperative to improve the quality of life of all citizens, and should be applauded by all South Africans. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr N T GODI (APC): House Chair, millions of South Africans were rightly shocked to see on SABC News this past Sunday the unbelievable living conditions of workers on a farm in Karino, a few kilometers outside Nelspruit, Mpumalanga.


The farmworkers drink untreated water drawn directly from the nearby dam. They still use the dehumanising bucket system which is emptied once a week. These toilets are directly opposite the kitchen and bedrooms. The stench is overpowering but this is the daily reality for the workers.


Recently the workers went on strike demanding to be paid the statutory minimum wage. They were summarily dismissed and thrown out empty-handed for there is no deduction for the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF.


We salute the cadres of the APC for exposing this despicable situation and taking up the struggle of these African workers. We call on the local municipality, the departments of Water and Sanitation, Health, Labour and Rural Development to intervene and end this dehumanising situation 21 years into our democracy. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr A J WILLIAMS (ANC): House Chair, the ANC congratulates the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, for winning the best performing national department award at the Third National Batho Pele Excellence Awards. The DTI’s speedy and effective response to allegations of corruption on the part of rogue individuals has led to disciplinary and criminal action. The Auditor-General’s own comments about the performance of the department underline this effective and efficient performance.


The ANC government also congratulates the DTI Director-General, DG, Mr Lionel October, on his award as the best national DG. His work ethic, commitment and constructive style are evident when working with the portfolio committee, especially when the committee engages in its deliberations on the Bills before it. Thank you. {Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr B TOPHAM (DA): Hon House Chair, I stand to share my concern, raising a recent report entitled Pathways out of homelessness produced by the Tshwane Homelessness Forum, which focuses on the increasing homelessness in our capital city. It raises a concern about the rising number of homeless people in Tshwane, with 33% being below the age of 29. It is also a problem which faces all racial groups, with the two major racial groups making up 94% of the homeless, with 55% being black people and 39% being white.

The homeless problem goes hand in hand with the lack of job creation and the failure of government to provide people with low-cost accommodation in terms of their constitutional right to shelter. It is clear from this report that the City of Tshwane has failed the residents of Tshwane concerning homelessness. Failure to provide housing and job opportunities leads to a decay in the outlook of people for a promising future and drives them to unlawful behaviour which has a further knock-on effect to our economy.


The number one problem identified in this report is a shortage of funding. How many shelters could Nkandla have built? How many shelters can the new presidential jet build and how many shelters can the wasted expenditure of various government departments build? Perhaps in the words of the song, the answer is blowing in the wind, because most South Africans know the answer is too high to those questions and it’s too high for Parliament to be able to sleep easy at night.


Homelessness deprives all South Africans of the opportunity to live in a free, fair ... [Inaudible.] ... society. [Time expired.]



(Member’s Statement)


Ms D RAPUTHI (ANC): The ANC welcomes the unveiling of plans by the City of Tshwane to launch a massive development project in Mamelodi, which sees the construction of a mini central business district, CBD, in the Denneboom train station area at a cost of R850 million. This huge project was unveiled by the Tshwane Executive Mayor Kgosientso Ramokgopa and the Premier of Gauteng, Premier David Makhura, in Mamelodi last week.


This project is expected to be completed by April 2017 and will consist of a mall and transport hub made up of taxi and bus terminals. Moreover the mall is expected to accommodate about 1 400 taxis, 600 traders and a medical centre. This project is part of the plans of the ANC provincial government to revitalise the township as a means of bringing services closer to the people. Once completed, it will have a positive effect on people’s lives as residents of Mamelodi in the east of Pretoria and the surrounding areas will no longer have to travel to town for basic shopping.


The ANC believes that this project is in line with the commitment of building local economies as a means of creating decent work and sustainable livelihoods, and it should be emulated by other provinces. I thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Mr L M NTSHAYISA (AIC): Hon Chair, the AIC is very concerned about the plight of the learners of Qora Primary School in the Eastern Cape. These learners started writing their final exams on the floor. The school’s furniture was confiscated by a local businessman who could not be paid by the Department of Basic Education after the completion of work done at the school. The Eastern Cape and Basic Education in particular has a tendency of not paying service providers. It is notorious for that. This local businessman is owed a sum of R160 000 by the Eastern Cape Education Department.


The learners who wrote their exams on the floor should be psychologically affected and very traumatised. Should they fail, who is to blame? We wonder what has gone wrong with this department. The member of executive council of the province, MEC, and head of department, HOD, must answer. This is abuse and violence against the children. These people seem to have no value for the status of human beings and their dignity. They have no sense of humanism at all. The national Department of Basic Education must always intervene in these matters.


Lastly, we also call upon the people of South Africa to vote AIC during the 2016 local government elections. Thank you.




(Member’s Statement)


Ms S MCHUNU (ANC): Hon House Chair, the ANC welcomes the proposal by the University of Stellenbosch to drop Afrikaans as a medium of instruction, with English set to be the primary academic language from next year onwards. The university confirmed that its management team has engaged various student groups over the past few months and received feedback and input regarding classroom experiences from the Open Stellenbosch movement, the Student Representative Council and the SA Students Congress. According to the University of Stellenbosch, the established task teams have been seized with the exploration of various options for best practice in language implementation at institutions of higher learning.

While we applaud the progress made in this regard, we are shocked to learn that the racist DA is opposed to the proposal. [Interjections.] I repeat; the racist DA is opposed to the proposal for English to be adopted as the primary academic language from 2016. This is illustrated by the media statement sponsored by their shadow Minister on Higher Education, Prof Bozzoli.


It has been the ANC’s vision to transform the postschool education and training sector so that the doors of learning can be open to all. Observations are that Stellenbosch, the University of Cape Town and Potchefstroom University continue to serve as fertile ground for the perpetuation of past privileges. We are concerned about the slow pace of transformation at these universities ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]




(Member’s Statement)


Mnr H C C KRUGER (DA): Huisvoorsitter, die Mpumalanga Ekonomiese Groei-Agentskap, Mega, is ’n mislukking en ’n verleentheid vir die provinsie. Laat my toe om dit weer te sê. Die Mpumalanga Ekonomiese Groei-Agentskap, Mega, is ’n mislukking en ’n verleentheid vir die provinsie.


Die agentskap se mandaat is om finansiële hulp aan eiendoms ontwikkeling, ondernemings, behuising en die landbousektor in die gemeenskappe wat as gevolg van apartheid benadeel was, te verskaf. Mega, volgens die Ouditeur-generaal se jaarverslag van 2014-15, het soos volg gevaar:


Eerstens, is geen werksgeleenthede van die beplande 200 geskep nie; tweedens, is geen huise van die beplande 100 in die Sabie-Lydenburg omgewing gelewer nie; derdens, is slegs 248 van die beplande 480 beleggers hulp aan verleen; vierdens, is slegs vier werksgeleenthede van die beplande 100 in die landbousektor geskep; en laastens, is net twee van die beplande 25 agri-ondernemings finansieël bygestaan.


Huisvoorsitter, u sal saam met my stem dat dit ’n skande is. Daar is wel ’n opwaartse neiging ... [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Member’s Statement follows.)


[Mr H C C KRUGER (DA): House Chairperson, Mpumalanga Economic Growth Agency, Mega, is a failure and embarrassment for the province. Allow me to repeat that. The Mpumalanga Economic Growth Agency, Mega, is a failure and embarrassment for the province.


The agency's mandate is to provide financial assistance regarding property development, enterprises, housing and the agricultural sector in the communities disadvantaged by apartheid. Mega, according to the Auditor-General's 2014-15 annual report, performed as follows:


Firstly, no job opportunities of the planned 200 were created; secondly, no houses of the planned 100 were delivered in the Sabie-Lydenburg area; thirdly, only 248 of the planned 480 investors were assisted; fourthly, only four jobs were created from the planned 100 in the agricultural sector; and lastly, only two of the planned 25 agribusinesses were financially assisted. House Chairperson, you will agree with me that it is a shame.


There is indeed an upward trend ... [Time expired.]]




(Member’s Statement)


Mr N J J Van R KOORNHOF (ANC): House Chairperson, German business people expressed their confidence in South Africa and their eagerness to support South Africa's enterprise and supplier development and skills development programme. This will benefit small businesses that are innovative and export orientated.


Underpinning the confidence of German business, Matthias Boddenberg said they are in support of the government’s policy of black industrialists and are committed to implementing it. Surely South African businesses should follow the lead shown by the Germans.


The latest announcement by Bavarian Motor Works, BMW, to invest six billion into the building of the X3 in South Africa is a confidence boost. During the recent state visit by the President and the hon Minister Davies to Germany, many German companies expressed their comfort and eagerness to up their investments in South Africa.




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, to respond to hon member on the statement made on the MEC in Eastern Cape, I just want to put the record straight: The MEC was never exclusive in making sure that there are certain children who were excluded in that particular activity. Children of various race groupings were all accommodated in that activity in line with the policies of the ANC-led government and also in line with the Freedom Charter clause of nonracialism.


We have lived throughout the years and saw the various leaders in this particular organisation following the aspirations of the Freedom Charter by being inclusive. So, hon member, there was never a time when an activity – even under your leadership as the Premier – where a particular individual has ever been exclusive or been racial in his/her approach when it comes to various activities. [Interjections.]


Let’s depend on the media. Do not read statements from the media, come to the House and mislead the people of South Africa. The ANC and this government stand for nonracialism and nonsexism. On the basis of that, the policies that guided you when you were the Premier still prevail in this country, including all the MEC who belong to the ruling party. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]



(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, in response to hon Godi: We must thank the hon member for the information and the role which has been played by the community members in exposing the exploitation of workers. In fact, we must call upon all our communities to work likewise: To expose and come forward with this information. We will be mobilising our own officials to make investigations so that we can be able to intervene appropriately. Thank you. [Applause.]




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, I am covered greatly by the Minister of Women in the Presidency, hon Shabangu. With regards to the question of the Khoisan – the coloured issue which was raised here - I just want to remind hon members that during the 2013 state of the nation address, the President spoke here and he said amongst other things that government has taken a decision to explore exceptions to the 1913 cut-off date to address the question of the Khoisan in South Africa.


So, the question of the Khoisan is being fundamentally addressed and this weekend, on Friday and Saturday, we have a two-day national consultation. They will participate fully to address this question, come up with policies and possible legislation which we will bring to this House to address this question fundamentally. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]




(Minister’s Response)


The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the decision by the Road Accident Fund to establish and launch its mobile unit should be welcomed as part of government’s expansion of its footprints: So that its services could be made available to as many people as possible; and so that they could be made accessible to the poorest of the poor.


In the same breath, that is why the Department of Home Affairs has a partnership with the banks in order to expand its footprints. The innovative methods by this government to make its services accessible to the poor people need to be applauded and supported by everybody. We also need to ensure that everybody, especially those who are sitting in this House, understand the importance of these innovative methods quite clearly.


Innovation, in terms of service delivery, has become critical for governments everywhere. South African Government, through its various departments and agencies is leading the way and need to be supported. Thank you very much. [Applause.]






(Minister’s Response)


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I would like to thank the hon members for drawing my attention to the two challenges that we face in two areas: One in the North West; and one in the Eastern Cape. No child should be attending a school without a desk or a chair to sit on; nor should a child be allowed to walk to school for more than 5km daily.


With regard to the Eastern Cape, what we can share with you is that the national department has indeed taken it upon itself to provide for furniture. More than 75 000 units have been provided to the Eastern Cape in the past 18 months. More than 50 000 units have been procured and there is a dedicated team made up of 12 members from the national department and 12 from the Easter Cape to ensure that every single school is assessed in terms of the needs for furniture. This indeed will be address and that is evidence of progress in this regard.


With regard to North West province itself, it cannot be acceptable that a child has to walk approximately 30km or even 15km to school. The policy is very clear that no child should walk for more than 5km to school. Indeed, transport has to be provided. I am aware of the fact that there is provision for transport but North West - I do know that - has the Department of Transport assuming responsibility for the transportation of learners.


It might well be that there is a lack of co-ordination. If I have the clear details of that particular school, I will personally take the responsibility for ensuring delivery, both with regard to the North West as well as the Eastern Cape.


I want to share with you that everyday we feed more than 9,2 million children. Every year we distribute more than 54 million books to our children in order to promote literacy and numeracy. Every child in Grade R receives four books delivered to him/her – black or white – free of charge. We ensure that equity prevails, that the African child receives thrice the amount as a more privileged child. Indeed, we have a huge challenge above us and quality education – the provision of appropriate amenities -is critical. Today we can say that ... [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]




(Minister’s Response)


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon House Chair and Phosa, indeed, the decision by the Stellenbosch University to change its language policy is welcomed. To all of us, this is a move towards a truly transformed and inclusive Stellenbosch University. We hope that all South Africans will indeed embrace this decision as we move towards transforming the entire higher education sector. Thank you very much. [Applause.]




The Chief Whip of the Majority Party: Hon House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted.


Motion agreed to.


Report accordingly adopted.




(Second Reading Debate)


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: House Chairperson, the background to the Bill before the House today is an established investment protection system that is increasingly widely recognised across the world as we need a serious review on reform. The current system includes around 3000 International Investments Agreements and bilateral investment treaties. Many of these came into existence in the 1990s and were based on the model developed then. This model offer investors guarantees against direct expropriation as well as expensively and vaguely defined guarantees against indirect expropriation and rights to fair and equitable treatment.


These rights and guarantees were enforceable in an international settlement of disputes system that gave individual investors the right to take government to international arbitral panels. These agreements were entered into by governments across the world in a hope of attracting foreign direct investment. Looking back, it is now apparent from our own experience as well as from that of many other countries that there is in fact no real correlation between the existence or nonexistence of bilateral treaty and actual flows of investment.


South Africa has no bilateral investment treaty with for example, United States of America or Japan, yet those countries have significant investment precincts here and conversely we will sign bilateral investment treaties with the number of countries which have very little investment precincts here. More significantly, it is clear that the international arbitral system has become increasingly litigious with expensive and vague definitions of indirect expropriation and fair equitable treatment resulting in challenges by individual investors against legitimate policy decisions and regulations introduced by governments.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, calculates that the average cost of defending cases in international panels is now about $10 million, but the cost of defending individual cases have been recorded as high as $120 million. Ninety-nine governments have been subjected to more than 600 cases with rewards ranging between $8 million and $2,5 billion. Famous cases include tobacco multinationals challenging health regulations and plain packaging requirements of different countries. They also include a company in Germany challenging that country’s decision on energy policy to go to renewable energy on the grounds that this was in violation of the treaties.


South Africa has also had its own experience of investment disputes. A Swiss private citizen for example, launched an arbitration case against South Africa in 2001 due to the fact that a farm was vandalised. South Africa was found to have breached the treaty obligation to provide protection and security to the investor and we had to pay out. More recently, the European Commission, which was once a strong supporter of the existing bilateral investment treaty regime, has now come to recognise that if the current system was carried over into the Transatlantic Trade And Investment Partnership agreement negotiation process that then evolved into a final agreement, then the food safety and environmental regulations among others, could become the subject of these disputes.


I want to quote from a document prepared by the BDI, which is the German Industry Association, on this matter to illustrate the problem. Talking about fair and equitable treatment provisions, this is what the BDI says:


“Fair and equitable treatment is frequently cited by investors yet very vaguely defined in most treaties. It is meant to protect an investor against the denial of justice as well as arbitrary and abusive treatment. Most problematic is that it also includes protection of the investor’s expectations for the investment. A broad definition of FET can greatly reduce a country’s policy space and expose the country to financial liability for pursuing legitimate policy objectives.


I can quote as well but I don’t have time, a similar observation about the clauses on indirect expropriation.


South Africa makes no apology for the fact that we were an early mover and also that we’ve been an active participants in international discussions on this issue and we’ve been part of shaping a new paradigm. Driven by the reality that we faced with the number of these treaties potentially lapsing or been automatically renewed, faced with the need to deal with this matter urgently, we in fact undertook a three year review of the bilateral treaties. This review assist the role of foreign investment in South Africa, the levels of protection afforded to investors and the risks and benefits of bilateral treaties. Overall, the review concluded that a new generation protection was required. In a presentation to the portfolio committee, the Director of Investment and Enterprise at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development and the principle author of the highly respected world investment report, James Zhan, describe the Bill before the House as “An important step towards a new generation investment policy framework for South Africa”. James Zhan said that the Bill was timely and reflects some of the new international good practice in investment policy making.


The Bill is a law of general application covering all investors and their investments regardless of their origin. South Africa already provides strong protection to investments in terms of the framework provided by the Constitution and other legislation. These provisions are now codified in this Bill. In addition to this, the Bill contains some important International Investment Law concepts which are not included in existing legislation. These include provisions to our national treatment; physical security in investment; legal protection in investment; and transfer of funds. All of this, packaged in the Bill is aimed at reassuring investors in South Africa that South Africa is, and will remain open to foreign direct investment and will continue to provide a strong protection to investors while establishing a more appropriate balance between the rights of governments to regulate and their protection granted to investments.


I should point out that it is neither the intention nor the mandate of this Bill to develop law in areas such as not directly in its scope. Section 25 of the Constitution provides adequate protection to investments against arbitrary expropriation and deprivation of their property. We are well aware that there is emerging jurisprudence on deprivation but we have taken the view that it is not the role of this Bill to try to clarify and interpret the Constitution.


I want to assure the House that the process is in place to modernise all our investment relations with all partners with whom we have had bids through various platforms. We have no intention to lapse bids with some partners and retain them with others. The Bill also does not interfere with a protection afforded to investors and what is called the survival clauses of lapse bilateral investment treaties. They will continue to be protected for the period and under the terms stipulated therein.


South Africa through this Bill is indicating that we will provide and continue to provide strong and reasonable protection to investments in accordance with the Constitution. The Constitution does not allow us to grow on better treatment to foreign investors than provide it to domestic investors.


I therefore have pleasure in commending this Bill to the House. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Ms J L FUBBS: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon colleagues and comrades, men and women of South Africa, good morning. The Protection of Investment Bill heralds a new generation of international investment agreements. It is an investment Bill that takes full account of sustainable development and increase of growth.


The Bill is also progressive with a robust regulatory architecture that ensures that the three dimensions of protection, openness and facilitation are directly addressed. To achieve this, the Bill tabled by the Minister had crafted many of the essential requirements. But where they were not captured in the Bill, the portfolio committee, PC, effectively dealt with these through the amendments before the House.


The Bill balances the rights and obligations of investors and the state in the interests and development of all. However, despite hours of clarifications, deliberations and considerations by all members of the committee, the DA could not be persuaded that it was not essential to note that the full will of the clauses of the Constitution merely had to be noted by section as in the equivalent clause. They merely had to note that.


Well, South Africa’s investment policies have informed policy coherence because the Bill is grounded in the country’s overall national development strategy. As we know, all policies and impact on investment are coherent and synergetic. This Investment Bill has curved out sufficient policies base for the state to pursue constitutionally driven national development objectives. That is why we welcome the Protection of Investment Bill.


The Bill recognises the state’s constitutional right to regulate in the public interest and good, while it balances the rights and obligations of architecture. South Africa recognises the important role that foreign investment plays in our economy and there is a great potential for more, especially, for productive investment. In line with each country’s development strategy, the investment policy has established open, stable and predictable entry conditions for investment.


With no doubt, the experiences of BMW over many years beyond decades in South Africa, has led them, as we heard only again this afternoon, to invest a further R60 billion even after seeing the Amended Bill. South Africa is among the vanguard of progressive governments. The international agreement regime is going through a period of reflection, review and revision of more than 3 000 old treaties.


This Bill marks a milestone and the beginning of changing the way we work, so that our laws are more in tune with the Constitution and our commitments to regional integration and the increased intra-African trade is facilitated. The tabling of the Bill was preceded by two-day workshops to enable members to be better informed, so that they could exercise their oversight effectively.


A wide–ranging spread different experts’ views was heard offering members different perspectives on the Bill, which had already been offered to the public by the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, for comments. Thereafter, it was followed by several days of public hearings, which spread over weeks’ deliberations, taking into account all the submissions, including late submissions among them, Anglo-American. The deliberations enabled all members, including the opposition who spoke extensively to airing their views, which were considered as the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, Unctad, puts it.


Each country has the sovereign right to establish entry and operational conditions for foreign investments subject to international commitments in the interests of the public good and to minimize potential negative effects. All proposals were considered. However, when the DA’s proposals came up notwithstanding hours and days spent, in fact, they threw their toys out of the window with extravagant language.


Finally, only one week or so beforehand, the DA said: “Oh hang on, there’s much and greatly improvements on the amendments.” Also, they had no real problem on the large numbers of clauses. However, at the end, once again, they threw toys out of the window. We’ve got so sick of that! Despite the paradigm shifts by the international community of the developed and developing countries to change and to embrace co-principles of sustainable development and inclusive growth, the DA refuses to embrace this change. It refuses to embrace the changes that the new era demands as Ben Okri put it. The new era is here, change your mindsets.


But, no! The DA clings like a lifebelt to the last vestiges of neoliberal thinking trapped in the past; like fossils they will become petrified, that is if they’re not already stoned judging from the way they listen and learn. Well, we do have a new generation of international agreements. Yes, we do. It acknowledges that in this modern era, nothing is stable in human affairs. Therefore, as Socrates put it so long ago: “We should avoid undue elation in prosperity, but for that matter, also avoid undue depression in adversity.”


What we do know is that, investors who have experience of foreign direct investments, especially productive investment in South Africa, are eager and willing to invest more. If the international investors can see the opportunities and take advantage of them, why can’t we? Well, this ANC government is doing just that. As Shakespeare puts it: “There is a tide in the affairs of men, which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.” People of South Africa, your ANC government is grabbing the opportunity, to enable our country to benefit effectively from investments.


Chairperson, let me convey my appreciation to all committee members who participated actively and all those who made submissions, to members of the DTI who assisted and clarified issues such as, the Director-General Lionel October; Deputy Director-General Xolelwa Mlumbi; Adv Da Gama; Adv Johan Strydom; the State Law Advisor; Adv Small; the Parliamentary Legal Advisor Ms Ngema and the Minister. I want to say, thank you. And may I add on the hon House Chair. The ANC supports this Protection of Investment Bill. Mayibuye! I-Afrika! [Applause.]


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, sometimes debates in this House call for us to rise above politicking and cheap point scoring. So, for that reason I will not try to replicate the display we have just seen, as easy as it would be, hon Fubbs. However, today we need to speak to one another as South Africans in this House. The debate on this Bill is just such a time.


Our economy is in serious trouble. Confidence in South Africa is at low ebb. South Africans feel unsure of the future, not knowing if their job and their livelihoods will be there tomorrow. Investors around the world are holding back on new commitments, waiting to see if we still honour the commitments we made in our Constitution, or whether we begin to unstitch the tapestry of 1994.


In that context, what South Africa needs - what we urgently need - is to send a clear, decisive and unambiguous message to the rest of the world that we are still the same South Africa, that we still believe in the Constitution, and that we want them to be a part of our shared prosperity story.


We need to stand on the proverbial hilltop and shout that we want their business; that we welcome their investment; that we want their factories here, and we want their jobs here! That is what this Bill could have been, and what it should have been. That is why it gives me absolutely no pleasure today to see this Bill before the House. For this Bill, is no welcoming invitation to the world. This is a big neon sign on the shop front window of South Africa - the ink that screams: Closed for business!


Hon members, all of us know that this is a bad Bill. How do we know that? We know that because foreign investors told us so in no uncertain terms. Every single foreign investor that came before the committee told us in unambiguous terms that if this Bill passes, they will be less likely to invest in South Africa. More than 80% of all foreign investors in South Africa, representing an enormous R2 trillion in investment over the past 20 years, told us that this is a bad Bill.


Mr Stefan Sakoschek, the Chairman of the EU Chamber of Commerce, says that this Bill makes EU investors feel like they, “Are being spat at in the face” by this government. Ms Carol O’Brien, the Executive Director of the American Chamber of Commerce, as she told the committee, described the Bill as, “Another nail in the coffin of the SA economy”. It is reported that in her meeting with President Zuma last week, German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, specifically raised this Bill as a major concern for German investors. Germany is our single biggest source of foreign direct investment in South Africa.


This is not me saying it, hon members to my right. [Interjections.] This is not the DA saying it. These are the words of the investment partners that we so desperately need to attract to South Africa. They are saying it. Why are you not listening? It is a bad Bill because it does not allay the concerns of investors, in fact, it only adds to them; and it gives absolutely no protection to foreign investors beyond that which is already available under general South African law.


I ask any member here, any member of the committee or anyone who has read the Bill, if they can point out just one clause in the Bill. You can do it right now if you want: Point out just one clause in this Bill, which offers any protection to foreign investors beyond which is already available under normal South African law. There is not one single clause; not one!


Let’s be clear what is at stake here. One in every four jobs in this country relies on foreign investment. Twenty five percent of all employment in South Africa relies on foreign investors. What foolishness is it that we are happy to alienate the partners we need to make South Africa prosper? What foolishness is it? That is why the DA wanted so badly for this to be a good Bill. That is why we worked with the department and the ANC in committee to propose some entirely reasonable, common sense amendments.


Our amendments would have offered a real tangible commitment to investors that we are serious about attracting them, but every one of them was voted down by the ANC. I want the House to hear exactly what we proposed, and to ask yourself honestly: Why did the ANC oppose this amendment? Tell me when you hear anything objectionable. I am quoting:


The government shall not impair by unreasonable, arbitrary or unfair measures, the management, maintenance, use, enjoyment or disposal of lawful investments made by foreign investors in the Republic.


That is just one example of the amendments we proposed, which you rejected out of hand. [Applause.]


This Bill is bad because it is in contravention of our SADC commitments on finance and investment. We have been assured that the SADC protocol will be amended, but this is at least a year off. How can this House pass a Bill, which the department agrees contradicts our international commitments?


Hon members, this Bill is bad because it is hypocritical and introduces second-class investors. We have cancelled our investment treaties with most EU countries, but we have signed new ones with others, like China. So, while some countries are good enough for a full investment treaty, our biggest investment partners must be happy with the scraps of this Bill.


There are many more questions, much that is truly inexplicable, but none is more pressing than this: Why is the ANC prepared to take an action that, we all know beyond a shadow of doubt, will harm the South African economy? Why? [Interjections.] The ANC must answer that question today.


But, we are clear on what is needed. We want a great Bill that protects investments and sends the clear message that South Africa is the place to invest. I asked every member to vote against this Bill. However, if you insist on passing it, then let me offer this guarantee: A DA-led government will repeal this bad law and replace it with a proper investment Bill that will make South Africa the place to invest - a proud investment destination. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, the Bill under discussion basically says that all investment and businesses in South Africa should be subjected to one common law, policy directives and regulations instead of the stratified bilateral investment treaties that have been entered to with individual countries on various sectors. So, the proposal is to say: Let us have one common law for all businesses. [Interjections.]


By the look of fit that is sensible, that is the way to go. So, obviously the right-wing forces will say that let us do it as is currently. [Interjections.] Obviously, we are not going to entertain that, but the major challenge that government is facing currently is its inability and unwillingness to enforce laws that relate to businesses, with regulations and policy directives that relate to businesses, whether domestic or international investments.


Look at the Mining Charter. Look at Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act itself - the law that governs mineral resources. The majority of the things that have to deal with compliance there are not being met.


Look at the charters of each and every sector: The AgriBEE Charter, and the Information and Communications Technologies Charter. All those commitments that have been reached there in consultations with the industry are not being met because - even if you subject everyone else to one common law - when you do not have the muscle, you will not have the decisive willingness to deal with all businesses that operate in South Africa.


By the way, there is no country in the world which has developed successfully and industrialised successfully without imposing a clear developmental agenda on investment and businesses. [Interjections.] You have to deal with that when you move forward.


Look, the continental Europe had common laws for all investments post-World War 2, through the martial law. Post-World War 2 in Japan, in Singapore and in all the countries that industrialised late, there was common law for all investments. China, which is the fastest growing economy in the past thirty years, is the second biggest economy in the world now. It was hundredth, thirty years ago.


There is common law for all investment that comes into juncture, with a saying: Economy! So, it is sensible of course to say that let us have common law for all the investments that are coming into South Africa so that we can be able to impose certain developmental mandates and directives to all these companies that come into South Africa.


However, what should be those policy directives and interventions that must be imposed on these companies? One, it should be that, they must all implement a minimum wage of R4 500, so that wealth is redistributed. Two, it must be that, at least 51% of all these companies must be owned by workers. Currently you say that 30% must be owned by BEE beneficiaries who are inherently very few. Why can’t you pass legislation to these charters that exist, to say that at least workers must be in control of 51% ownership in these companies?

Three, being the intervention: The developmental mandate that must be imposed is that all these companies must use South African Bank as their trading accounts so that they are subject to scrutiny on issues of tax avoidance and base erosion that define most of these foreign direct investors in South Africa.


Lastly, is that you can impose a developmental mandate that says: A minimum of 50% of the profits should be reinvested into South Africa’s productive sectors in order of driving the economy to industrially expand and indeed many the questions. Unless all these areas have been covered decisively, we will not support the Bill in its current form. [Interjections.] We are not objecting it from the right-wing perspective of the DA; we are rejecting it from a progressive developmental mandate which we must impose on investments. [Interjections.] Thank you very much! [Applause.]


Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: House Chair, the revised investment Bill reveals that the South African government has no intention of providing investors with any higher degree of protection than a national investor; the contention being that South African domestic legislation provides sufficient legal protection to any foreign investor when, in fact, foreign investors will now have less protection than they had before under bilateral investment treaties, which the government is currently in the process of terminating. And, while this may be well viewed and acceptable from a South African local perspective, the position is entirely different when looked at from a foreign investor’s perspective when deciding on a country in which to invest.


One must also be mindful that the existence of Bank Internet Payment Systems, or Bips, are one of the factors which a potential foreign investor takes into account when making investment choices. Furthermore, the SADC Protocol on Finance and Investment, which came into force on 16 April 2010, especially obliged member states to create favourable conditions for investment through a predictable investment climate.


This investment Bill, clearly, does not do this, nor does it guarantee certain international investment trade law principles, and a foreign investor’s greatest concern may also well be the regulation of dispute resolution, as, in reality, the investment Bill provides no recourse to international arbitration, neither does it guarantee market-related compensation for any expropriation nor assurance for fair and equitable treatment. All of the above may easily deter foreign investment from our shores.


Foreign investors’ confidence in a stable political and economic climate is critical to our economy. Our policy and legislation must be reflective of an “investor be welcome” rather than an “investor beware”. There must be a promise of fair and equitable treatment for foreign investors. The IFP remains of the opinion that despite assurances that this Bill would not be railroaded through Parliament, it has been. It remains ill-conceived and requires amendment in order to allay foreign investors’ concerns and therefore we remain opposed to the Bill as it currently stands. I thank you. [Applause.]


Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Chairperson, when this Bill was tabled there was some resistance. However, much of it was out of context and unduly inflated. After we conducted a proper public hearing process, the Bill was improved to such a level that the last resistance standing was led by the DA.


The irony is that there is nothing in this Bill the DA is against, but, rather, what is left out of it. The DA proposed an amendment to clause 10 of the Bill, dealing with the right to property in terms of section 25 of the Constitution. The essence of the amendment would result in the codification of section 25 and would try to provide added comfort and assurances to foreign investors in respect of legal protection of their investments.

However, a close scrutiny of their proposal reveals that it goes beyond the scope and ambit of the Constitution, giving protection in addition to what is enshrined in section 25 already. Should we have allowed the amendment, it would have given rise to legal consequences compromising the supremacy of the Constitution, making it invalid in law.


Professor of property law at the University of Pretoria, Prof Van der Walt, wrote the following in an article published by the Pretoria University Law Press, and I quote: All our legislation forms part of a single system of law under the auspices of our Constitution that allows for constitutional review, which includes a Bill of Rights that guarantees property. No Bill will undermine this. Section 25 clearly gives enough protection to all, including foreign investors.


The DA was looking for reasons not to support this Bill, because they chose not to support it when it was published. [Interjections.] Furthermore, acceptance of their proposal to codify section 25 would have been an attempt to accord to foreign investors certain statutory protection not available to domestic investors. That would have resulted in the undermining of the principle of national treatment embodied in the WTO. This principle calls for equal treatment between foreigners and locals. So, the DA must go to Pick n Pay, they must go to Shoprite Checkers, they must go to Woolworths and tell them they want more protection for Walmart.


Another contentious call was by the FF Plus to include in this Bill extraterritorial protection for South African investments abroad and to compel the South African government to intervene on their behalf. This Bill only applies to investments made inside the borders of South Africa and therefore such a proposal falls outside the scope of the Bill.


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Would the hon Koornhof take a question?


Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Unfortunately, I do not have time. At the end, I will allow a question if there is time left.


However, our Constitution states that the national legislative authority vests in Parliament and provides the framework for governance in South Africa. In that respect, Judge Chaskalson remarked in the Constitutional Court case Kaunda and Others v the President of the Republic of South Africa that our Constitution and therefore our laws are territorially bound and have no application beyond our borders. Judge Chaskalson continues to argue that it is a general rule of international law that the laws of a state apply only within its own territory. He agrees that in certain circumstances you can make laws binding on nationals wherever they may be, but he warns that this can give rise to tension if the laws are in conflict. John Dugard in his book International Law concurs with him.


However, a citizen or a company with an investment abroad might be able to solicit through the normal and existing channels our government to assist when the need arises and it is possible to intervene, but it is also possible that such an intervention is ruled out by an existing bilateral agreement between the respective states.


So, there is no doubt that this Bill gives the same rights to foreign investors and the same protections to domestic investors if there are like circumstances, and we shall support it. [Applause.]


Mr M L SHELEMBE: Hon Chairperson, the Protection of Investment Bill has implications for foreign investment in South Africa as it is intended to replace bilateral investment treaties concluded with mainly European countries that are now expiring and not being renewed. We are faced with a dilemma: On the one hand, we have the ANC majority in the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry insisting on the Bill is in the best interests of South Africa. On the other hand, we have the European Union Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Southern Africa and the American Chamber of Commerce in SA who both warned during the public hearings in September that investments could be deterred.


The portfolio committee points out that the Bill provides for security of investment. This means that South Africa must provide foreign investors and their investments with a level of security as may be generally provided to domestic investors, subject to available resources and capacity. In addition, the Bill provides that investors will have the right to property in terms of the Constitution and a foreign investor may, in respect of an investment, repatriate funds subject to taxation and other applicable legislation. These provisions are to be welcomed and we trust that they are in line with modern global investment paradigms ... [Inaudible.] ... towards sustainable development and inclusive growth, as the hon Fubbs remarked as the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry.


The NFP, however, remains concerned by the warning from business that investors might be deterred if the Bill is enacted into law. South Africa is not an island. We are part of the global village now and have to understand and accept that we do need foreign investment if we wish to have a prosperous economy. The reality is that successful and prosperous economies all over the world are built on decreased government interference and increased private sector involvement in job-creation. It is not the state which creates jobs; it is businesses. It is not the state which generates wealth either; it is businesses. Within this context, we believe that the fears and concerns of business must be acknowledged and addressed, particularly because government has had to adjust the projected economic growth rate downwards and because unemployment remains unacceptably high.


The NFP is not entirely convinced that the Bill, in its current form, adequately addresses the concerns of foreign investors, and there is no guarantee that additional or alternative legislation will not be formulated which will impact on the security of foreign investment. We would have liked to have seen more ... [Inaudible.] ... foreign investment protection included in the Bill. The NFP does not support the Bill. I thank you.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have just been advised that the hon Swart will speak after the hon A J Williams.


Mr A J WILLIAMS: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, guests, friends, and most importantly, the South African people, let me take this opportunity to wish the Deputy President a happy birthday. [Interjections.]


In 1994, after the democratic breakthrough, South Africa was opened up to foreign investment. Sometimes, this took the form of bilateral investment treaties, known as Bits. In most cases, these Bits put the international investor in a more favourable position than local businesses. These Bits had a long lifespan and they couldn’t just simply be scrapped. So, when the Bits expired, the South African government chose not to renew them, but rather, advanced legislation that equalises protection afforded to local business and the international investor. This protection forms part of the South African Constitution.


By not supporting the legislation before us, the DA is ignoring their very own open-opportunity policy, as they want the international investor to continue to have more favourable conditions than the local investor. The DA wants local business to have less favourable conditions than the international investor.


It is time for the South African private sector to take a serious look at what the DA is attempting to do. The question that our yellow press should be asking – and if any of you don’t know what the yellow press is, I suggest you Google it – is, Why would the DA in Parliament go directly against one of their core policies? There is no open opportunity where more favourable conditions exist. If the DA is not defending local business interests, then whose interests are the DA defending? [Interjections.]


Later on in this debate, the DA will send a junior Member of Parliament to justify to the South African private sector why it is that the private sector will be better off if they had to have less favourable conditions than the international investors. Perhaps the DA’s Members of Parliament on the committee don’t know the DA policy. This wouldn’t be the first time, however. We all remember the DA’s employment equity flip-flop.


Local business needs to wake up and pay attention and not be led by the nose into less favourable conditions, as the DA would have it. The ANC is striving for a South African private sector that is truly inclusive, and the ANC will protect that private sector - unlike the DA that talks endlessly about open opportunity, on one hand and on the other hand ...


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, will the hon Williams take the question that the hon Mr Koornhof dodged? [Interjections.]


Mr A J WILLIAMS: No, Chairperson. I won’t be taking any questions, thank you.


Let me start again. The DA goes on endlessly about open opportunity, on the one hand, and at the same time, do everything they can to create more favourable conditions for the international investor. Obviously, some people are more equal than others within the DA’s policy of open opportunity – or perhaps we should call it open opportunism. [Interjections.] Wake up, South Africa. Today, you’ll see the DA’s true agenda. They are nothing more than neocolonialists. [Interjections.]


One of the things that define us, as a nation, is our sovereignty. For, without our sovereignty, we would be nothing more than a colony, a homeland. It is our sovereignty that makes us truly South Africans.


I would like to assure this House and South Africa that an ANC-led government will never put legislation in place that puts the interests of foreign investors above the interests of South Africans. [Interjections.] The question that you, as South Africans, should be asking is, Why would some political parties in this House attempt to put the interests of foreign investors above South Africans’ interests? [Interjections.] Whose interests are these political parties protecting? The more important question is, Why would they protect those interests? [Interjections.] Is there a funding model that these parties have forgotten to declare?


It is unpatriotic not to support this legislation that brings the South African investor and the foreign investor onto an even playing field. It is unpatriotic in a sovereign state to attempt the continuation of division between the economic coloniser and us, the colonised. [Interjections.] I am surprised that the entire South African private sector hasn’t rushed out and joined the ANC, the only party that puts their interests above the interests of international investors. [Interjections.]


The South African private sector needs to wake up to the reality that it is only the ANC that protects their interests. The Official Opposition is here today to protect foreign business interests. When they object to this Bill, they are objecting to the South African private sector. If the DA votes against this Bill, they will be voting against their very own policy of open opportunity, thus making that policy null and void.


Let me now take this opportunity to address the international investors. The ANC-led government will afford the international investors the same protection that we afford our local investors. Don’t be distracted by whitey, liberal paranoia promoted by our yellow press. The fact stands: The ANC-led government will protect your interests within the context of the South African Constitution.


I would also like to highlight to the international investors, both current and potential, that South Africa is the place to be. South Africa is the place to invest. Investing in this country is like investing in Microsoft in March 1980. [Interjections.] South Africa is the future, and by working with this government, we can create a better future for everyone, because working together, we can do more. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I have just been advised that the hon Swart has waived his time to speak, so he won’t be participating in the debate. Hon Macpherson.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: House Chairperson, let me tell the hon Williams the difference between him and me. [Interjections.] For the last 10 years, I have built a business that employs people in KwaZulu-Natal. You, however, hon Williams, for your entire life have sucked off the state. You wear a R70 000 watch and drive a luxury German sedan, while claiming to be a Communist. That, in English, is called being a hypocrite. That is exactly what you are – and a political has-been. [Applause.] [Interjections.]


The Minister, Rob Davies, came here and told us how James Zahn from the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, Unctad, had said what a wonderful Bill this was. What the Minister doesn’t know is that when I had a private conversation with Mr Zahn and explained to him the local context in which this Bill is being brought forward – expressly around that issue of expropriation - Mr Zahn then said to me that, indeed, that has changed his opinion of the Bill. So, his version that you have purportedly brought to this House is actually not correct, and he himself is now concerned about this Bill.


You have said that the Constitution doesn’t allow us to provide better provision to international investors over local investors. Why is it, then, that you went and negotiated a new Bit with China, which provides favourable provision to the Chinese? Well, it’s obvious. You’re a Communist. China is communist and you love Communism. So, it makes obvious sense why you would do that. [Interjections.]


Hon Fubbs, that really has to be one of the poorest speeches that you’ve given this year. However, if there is anyone that’s trapped in the past, it’s the ANC. They, your party of liberation, still believe today that the world is in love with South Africa and Nelson Mandela. That has changed. That love affair is no longer, and that shows by the foreign direct investment, FDI, rankings. We have gone from 14th to 25th. International funding is leaving this country, not coming into this country.


The hon Shivambu gave a nice speech. You know, it would have been great if he could have come to give those comments in committee. He didn’t attend a single meeting and didn’t make a single input. However, from the debates we’ve heard today, that is a growing trend within the ANC ... within the EFF. It’s the same thing. [Interjections.]

Let me tell you something. If there is ...


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, on a point of order: The DA must concentrate on its mediocrity and confusion and stop mentioning the EFF. [Interjections.] We made substantial submissions to the process.


AN HON MEMBER: No, you didn’t.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: He doesn’t know. [Interjections.] Obviously, he would want to ride over that and everything else. Argue your point. It’s your point. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Alright. Thank you, hon Shivambu.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You can’t make any sense ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu, you can take your seat.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Awu! [Oh!]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I indicated earlier that on the issues of attendance - and I’m sure, hon Macpherson, you remember - you should actually avoid dealing with those issues, because you can’t expect the Chair to rule on it, not having been in the committee meetings to know who was present, or not. Can you please proceed with your speech? Hon Ollis?


Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: With all due respect, points of order are common, and yes, we must have them. However, points of order are becoming long speeches about personal issues. Can we please call members to ... [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, thank you very much. [Interjections.] Hon Macpherson, can you continue?


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, the fact remains that the hon Shivambu didn’t attend a single meeting and didn’t make a single submission to the committee. That is a fact. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!


Dr H CHEWANE: Chair, on a point of order: We rose earlier on - there was a different presiding officer there – to say that we need to make a ruling on speakers who take the platform and abuse it by speaking about the attendance in committee meetings.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member.


Dr H CHEWANE: It was precisely because we are trying to avoid a situation where hon members do not focus on the contribution they should be making ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take your seat?


Dr H CHEWANE: ... and then they ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take your seat?


Dr H CHEWANE: ... do not assist the discussion at hand. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!


Dr H CHEWANE: Can you at least rule on this?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take your seat? Hon members, I did raise this matter earlier on, and I would really appreciate it if we don’t go on about the issues of attendance or nonattendance. [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, we can! [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: It’s a debate!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I know it’s a debate. [Interjections.] So? So? [Interjections.] No one argues it’s a debate but I don’t think there is any point for us to waste time deliberating about attendance or nonattendance. [Interjections.] To be asked to rule on that matter – and it was in that context that I raised the matter – is something you can’t expect the Chair to do when it is something she has not been party to. [Interjections.] Hon Steenhuisen, what is your point of order?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I think we need some clarity on this, because your ruling is ambiguous. Whether somebody attends a committee meeting or not is intrinsic to the debate that we have today. [Interjections.] It’s very important.




The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It becomes part of the debate because the points that were raised there ... the opportunity was lost to them when the committee was meeting. It’s intrinsic to the debate, and I would suggest to you that it is a member’s right to point out that a member has not attended in committee.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen, I don’t think there was any ruling that is contrary to the rights of members to debate any matter. However, earlier on, when this point was raised, the Chair was asked to make a ruling, and it was in that context that I said you can’t expect the Chair to rule on attendance or nonattendance. That’s what I raised. [Interjections.] Hon member Shivambu?


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, you made a ruling and immediately afterwards, this right-winger there, the little white ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu ...


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... continues to stand on the same things that you have made a ruling on.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu, can you please take your seat? Can you please take your seat and allow the debate to continue? [Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Shivambu referred to me as a little white man. Now, there’s nothing little about me ... [Laughter.] ... and I want to suggest to you ... [Interjections.] ... I would suggest that he withdraws that. We have already had a ruling in the House today about racial epithets in the House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: We ask that he withdraws that.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I will consult the Table, because seated here, I didn’t hear what was said. [Interjections.] Can I please ask the hon Macpherson to conclude his debate?


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I help you there?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, no, no, hon Shivambu. I have made a ruling already. Take your seat, thank you. Hon Macpherson.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: House Chairperson, if there is one person in this room who should be voting against this Bill, it is the hon Deputy President. The Deputy President is a businessman. The Deputy President knows the importance of foreign investment. More importantly, however, the Deputy President is going to need foreign investment after 2017 when he doesn’t get elected as the ANC president after the premier league vote against him and he’s going to have to go back to business. He is going to need foreign investment. So, I suggest, Deputy President, you whip your party into line and get them to vote against this Bill.


In closing, suffice it to say that business requires one thing and foreign investors require one thing. That is policy certainty. What Minister Davies has put on the table here today is total uncertainty around expropriation and property rights. He has outsourced it. He has been lazy and given it to another committee, allowed someone else to deal with it and said someone else should just have a look at that piece of legislation and that will deal with everything. That is not how one attracts investment and the DA will not support this Bill. Thank you.

Mr M U KALAKO: House Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and hon members, commenting on the Bill, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development’s Director of Investment and Enterprise said:


The current version of the Investment Bill represents an important step towards a “new generation” investment policy framework for South Africa ... Beyond the scope of the current Bill, further work is important to strengthen the dimensions of investment facilitation and policy coherence of the regulatory framework ... In sum, a modern regulatory framework for investment needs to effectively deal with three dimensions: protection, openness and facilitation. It should also balance the rights and obligations of investors and states.


This is exactly what the Bill is doing. The DA, FF Plus, and, to my surprise, one member of the IFP, Mr Esterhuizen, want the government to play no role in regulating foreign investment as we do with domestic investors. Foreign investors must regulate themselves, must not be subjected to laws and the Constitution of the country.


The DA wants us to disregard the interest of the public totally; according to the DA, the rights of foreign investors must supersede those of the state ... [Interjections.] ... hence, their insistence that the Minister must play a minimal role in ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. Hon Kalako, please take your seat. Hon Hill-Lewis, what is your point of order?


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Madam Chair, it is not a point of order. I would like to know whether hon Kalako will take the question that his colleagues have dodged. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Kalako, will you take the question?


Mr M U KALAKO: When I finish.


Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Let’s see that happen.


Mr M U KALAKO: Contrary to their arguments, investors recognise and accept that government has a role to play in making sure that there is a balance of rights and obligations of investors and states. The DA wants to use this Bill to fight battles that they cannot win in other committees. They want us, as the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, to determine what other committees must do. They keep bringing in the Appropriation Bill, the Private Security Industry Regulation Amendment Bill, and the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill in opposing this Bill.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: We don’t exist in isolation!


Mr M U KALAKO: They have some false and unfounded fear and paranoia that the ANC government will expropriate private property arbitrarily. [Interjections.] The DA goes to the extent of demanding that a clause protecting South African investors in other countries should be included in the Bill. We must create laws that infringe the sovereignty of other states. We must interfere and disregard other states’ judicial processes and constitutions.


Unfortunately for the DA, the FF Plus, and that other member of the IFP, the ANC is not the offspring of former colonial and imperialist political parties. [Interjections.] The ANC will not interfere in the sovereignty of other states. The DA and FF Plus know very well that South African investors in other countries are protected by international law and treaties governing foreign investment, as well as bilateral agreements they signed with those countries.


The DA must get over their paranoia about what happened in Zimbabwe. We have no indigenisation policies here. The facts speak for itself. [Interjections.] The ANC government has not expropriated any private property. We respect the supremacy of the Constitution. [Interjections.] This is one form of paranoia that that the DA should deal with because the party belongs to the old liberal paradigm.


They are actually the ones who were these liberals in this country long before the existence of the National Party. They are the ones who laid the foundations for segregation, for dispossession of our people, for creating homelands when they started the centuries-old policies of segregation in this country. [Interjections.]


They must know that we have no shame. We are proud of being associated with the communists.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: We know you have no shame!


Mr M U KALAKO: We are proud of being associated with countries like China. We are proud to be associated with countries that stood with us through thick and thin.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: North Korea!


Mr M U KALAKO: The SACP was the first who, under a hail of bullets from you, called for majority rule in this country, the first to call for nonracialism. It is the only party that was prepared to organise African people, that was prepared to campaign and die with us. It is that party that was prepared to confront big capital and foreign capital when it was killing us in this country. [Applause.]


Let me tell you one thing, hon members: The DA has failed dismally in its attempt to lobby foreign investors to disinvest in South Africa – using this Bill. That is why hon Macpherson will come here and say that he had private conversations. That is what they do. They go outside. They will not recognise official statements from embassies because they are agents of some of their handlers in their imperialist countries. [Interjections.] So, contrary to what both of them were saying, the majority and the members ...


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chairperson, is the member prepared to take a question now? It has been some time, and he should be ready. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Kalako, are you prepared to take a question?


Mr M U KALAKO: No, Chair. You know, it is important to note that he comes here and says this Bill is against the SADC Protocol. In fact, they know very well, for your information ...




Mr M U KALAKO: ... it is that Minister and that department that initiated the review of the protocol so that it falls in line with the emerging new international framework on investment, something that everybody agrees on. [Interjections.] Yes, I was listening. It is precisely because, of course, as the architects of oppression in this country, as architects of suppressing the indigenous capital in the country, they are prepared to give everything away to foreigners. They are not patriotic at all. I think our people ...


... kufuneka nibabone bantu bakuthi ukuba njengokuba nimane nisiya kwi-DA bayanixhaphaza njengembumbulu zokudubula inkanunu, njengamahashe ukuze bakhwele kuni emqolo. Benzela ukuba bakwazi ukumfimfitha igazi lenu banicinezele. Besisilwa apha neNational Party, sisilwa imigaqo-nkqubo yabo yocalucalulo, naba abona bantu bangamagcisa nabaseka imigaqo-nkqubo yocalucalulo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[...must be careful of voting for the DA because they are using them like the bullets of a cannon; or like horses and taking a ride on top of their backs. They are doing that in order to suck their blood and to oppress the people. We were fighting with the National Party; we were fighting their rules of discrimination. Those are the people who knew what they were doing and they are the founders of the rules of discrimination.]


These are the people we must talk to. In conclusion, this Bill seeks to quantify the already existing levels of protection of investment, as enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic. This is due to global developments in investment policymaking, as reflected by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development World Investment Report 2015.


The report states the following: that there is movement away from freedom of investment to investment for sustainable development, that there have been fundamental changes in the investment and investor landscape, that a new generation of investment policies is emerging, pursuing broader and more intricate development policy agendas and maintaining a favourable investment climate. This is an investment policy framework connected to an overall development strategy or industrial development policy of states to ensure policy coherence.


The international investment policy environment is changing and is giving rise to the new environment. [Interjections.] This is what the ANC government is doing. That is why, instead of investors running away from this country, they are coming in. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! The speaker at the podium has not finished his speech. [Interjections.]


Mr M U KALAKO: Therefore, as I have said, the Department of Trade and Industry initiated the review of the Bilateral Investment Treaties, BITs, which the DA wanted to ... [Time expired.]




Mr D W MACPHERSON: Tell us about China!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Let’s allow the Minister to respond.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: A number of speakers, in opposing this piece of legislation, told us that various theorists or spokespeople of business organisations said that this Bill could deter foreign direct investment in South Africa. [Interjections.]


The fact is that the actions of actual investors tell us a different story. Yesterday, the day before this, BMW announced the largest investment in the motor sector in this country. [Applause.] After we lapsed the treaty with Germany, Mercedes-Benz announced the then largest investment in the motor sector in this country. Yesterday, Mr Tim Abbott said that they made this investment because board members know the actual conditions on the ground in South Africa, and he said, “They don’t believe the chatter that you see in the newspapers”. That is the reality that we are coming up with.


The fact of the matter is ... I want to also say, because this is now a live issue, it is not true what the hon Hill-Lewis said about the trip to Germany. The issue was hardly and scarcely raised, and, when I pointed out that institutions like the Federation of German Industries were also raising these questions, it was almost a nonissue. I can tell you that I went to the lunch with Chancellor Merkel, and she said nothing of the sort of what you said here. It is completely misleading the House.


Probably the biggest concern here is that those people who, when it suits them, say that they are the defenders of the Constitution actually have no faith in the Constitution when it comes to protecting the rights of investors domestic and foreign. Keynes once said, “Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.


Messrs Hill-Lewis, Macpherson, and others, whether they know it or not, are neoliberals. They believe that the right of governments to regulate should be curtailed. They come from the intellectual tradition that supported light touch regulation in the financial sector recognised now, but not then, as a major cause of the financial sector crisis. In particular, they do not believe that the South African government should have the right to regulate in the public interest or in the interest of transformation. Why? This is because their main constituent base is people with market power, power to influence markets in their favour. That is where they come from!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, take your seat.


Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, according to the time allocation, the hon Minister had two minutes. It has far exceeded two minutes. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am aware of that, hon member. The Minister is winding up. I was going to ask him to finish.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I was going to say that it is even worse than that because when the EU was against us backing this move, they supported BITs. When the EU wanted to change, they also wanted to change in line with the EU. I commend this Bill to the House. I am sure that we will adopt a good piece of legislation. Thank you very much. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.


Division demanded.


House divided.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, some members are voting twice, again.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I had already closed the voting session. That issue was not raised before.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, I would ask then that the EFF members’ votes are recorded so that you know who is here and that that is compared against the register of the people that were pressed. This is now the third time this has happened today in defiance to your instruction that members can only vote from their allocated seat.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I will follow up on the matter that you have just raised.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair, we are sick and tired of this thing.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Hlophe!


Ms H O HLOPHE: We are being told this thing, and it is not true!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Hlophe, please take your seat. Firstly, I have indicated the point of order was raised after the voting session was closed. Secondly, the Chief Whip of the Opposition has made a request that will obviously be considered, and we will come back to the House about how we will deal with that matter. Can I now announce the results of the vote?


AYES - 181: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu, N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Brown, L; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cele, B H; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba , K M N; Gina, N; Goqwana, M B; Jafta, S M; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabe, P P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F;  Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Mapisa-Nqakula, N  N; Mapulane , M P; Martins, B A D; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashatile , S P; Masondo , N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z;  Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M S; Mpumlwana, L K B;  Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N;  Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Nesi, B A; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyambi, H V; Oosthuizen, G C; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa , M C; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela , E K; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; v R Koornhof, N J J; Van Rooyen, D  D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xego-Sovita, S T; Zwane, M J.


NOES – 33: Buthelezi, M G; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Chewane, H C; Dudley, C; Esterhuizen, J A; Filtane, M L W; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Hlophe, H O; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Macpherson, D W; Matiase, N S; Matlhoko, A M; Matshobeni, A; Mbatha, M S; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, S P; Mncwango, M A; Moteka, P G; Msimang, C T; Mulaudzi, T E; Nkomo, S J; Paulsen, M N; Rawula, T; Shivambu, N F; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sonti, N P; Steyn, A; Van der Merwe, L L; Waters, M.


ABSTAIN – 1: Madisha, W M.


Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Chair, appreciating that you had already ruled on the concerns of the DA, can you please make it clear to the DA that early in the day, a member of the EFF, at the insistence of the DA on a similar point, was ejected from the House. Now, the DA should be reminded that the EFF is here not at the behest of the DA but at the behest of 1,2 million working class families that voted for the EFF. They must stop ... [Interjections.] ... how the EFF conducts itself in the House.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. The Bill will be sent to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, Mr Matiase was allowed to make a political statement. It wasn’t a point of order. It is not his job to use a point of order to remind us what to do. We are here to ensure that no cheating takes place in Parliament. [Interjections.] It has already been ruled – and I will refer you to the Table and the Annotated Digest of Rulings – what a serious matter it is when members vote with other people’s buttons. The last person to do it in the Fourth Parliament had to officially apologise to the House. It is such a grave offense.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Steenhuisen, I had addressed the matter. You made a request. Firstly, as I indicated earlier, when your party raised the issue, the voting process had been closed already. However, I said the concerns that were raised would be followed up and reported upon to the House. I think I have closed the matter. Hon Shivambu, what is the matter?


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, the Chief Whip of the DA repeatedly says that there is cheating and all those things, even after you had said that you would investigate the issue. Let the results be printed, and then we will confirm that all the EFF votes are those of the members who are present. So, their imagination is part of those things of trying to be some white prefect in the classroom.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon Shivambu. That is precisely why I said the Table will follow up on the question. Hon Steenhuisen, if it is not a new point, can I ask that we proceed?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, it is a point of order. Once again, the hon Shivambu has used a racial epithet in describing a member of this House. There have been several rulings, including today, precluding members from making racial epithets. If you are going to allow it, what is going to happen if I start referring to other members of this House by their race?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, thank you very much. I made a ruling earlier, and I have just noted the issue you have raised. We will come back – no! Hon Paulsen?


Hon members, on the request you have made with regard to the voting process, the Table will follow up. We will print out, investigate and come back to the House. On the other matter, unfortunately, sitting here, I did not hear that statement. Hon member, we will proceed, follow up on that matter, and come back to the House. Can we please proceed?


Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, on a point of order, if I may address you: The hon member was talking into the microphone when he said it.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Waters! Hon Waters!


Mr M WATERS: There is no way you could not have heard him doing racial profiling.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Waters, can you please take your seat? When the House Chair or any presiding officer says he or she had not heard what was said, you cannot say a person had heard. I have told you that I will confer on the issue and come back and rule in the House. We have done so before. Thank you very much. Can we proceed? [Interjections.]

Question agreed to.


Bill read a second time.




(Subject for Discussion)


Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chair, members, deepening democracy can provide tangible improvements to people’s lives so that we can have overarching citizen participation. Making democracy work requires informed and active citizens who understand how to voice their interests, act collectively and hold public representatives accountable.


Citizens must understand the basis of citizenship, politics and government, and they need knowledge to make good policy choices and understand the proper use of authority. They also need the desire to exercise their rights and the political space to do so without unreasonable resistance or harassment from the powers that be.


The citizens’ approach should include the support of civic and voter education, issue organising and advocacy, government oversight and monitoring. This support will help citizens master the techniques needed to initiate, solve complex issues and become leaders of their destiny.


The goal of a democratic state should be to establish a society in which citizens are socially, economically, politically and intellectually empowered. Citizens will generally buy into the political, social and economic system that consistently provides them with what they desire. When they don’t get quality services, they will have no reason to engage and participate.


Providing citizens and civil society organisations with technical assistance and independence for advocacy will be an entry point for the creation of context for change. When people become the driving force behind an initiative, then systemic and attitudinal change is more likely to occur. In order to make citizen participation more meaningful, we need to borrow from the wisdom of Julius Nyerere and not develop people ... [Interjections.] ... but create an environment for people to develop themselves.


A maturing democracy demands of people to be at the centre of development with resources used to meet their basic needs of justice, sustainability and inclusiveness. A participation model must be designed such that the importance of people and their capacity is understood rather than placing solutions central as it seems to be the case today, resulting in disempowerment and underdevelopment whilst inequality, poverty and social ills are perpetuated.


For direct participation to take place, it is necessary for government and other development agencies to facilitate the process of learning, growth and development of the people. To empower the people to participate means we enable people to elicit and increase the power they have by working as a collective community. This will ensure that people are skilled, their confidence is built and developed through co-operation, sharing and mutual learning.


Communities should be able to direct their future and this includes assessment, planning and implementation of their plans and evaluation. Accordingly, for citizens’ activism to be successful focus should be on the people’s capabilities, potential, power, resources, knowledge and skills. This is so important because communities understand their solutions better than anyone else. They must participate in assessing their own developmental path. To exclude them and just impose is to deny them their human dignity and expertise based on their experience. 


Participation is an essential part of development. It develops self-development, pride, initiative, creativity, responsibility, co-operation, sharing and working together. Without participation democracy and development become shallow and lacking. Once citizens participate they will be able to own it and say, we have started it ourselves and we are able to continue with it; we own it and we owe it to ourselves to protect it.


Currently, we have a system where people are just called to what is popularly called public hearings on IDP Imbizo and many other forms of gatherings. These include National Calendar Days which are then highjacked into political party rallies to attack other citizens who differ with the ruling party. As a consequence, over the last couple of years we have witnessed poor attendance of public National Days because citizens are protesting against this highjack and abuse.


The provincial government is an unnecessary bottleneck in the development path. Even their so-called Taking Parliament to the People is always turned into a rally of branches of the ruling party. The intergovernmental relations forums are more preoccupied with internal stakeholders.


In conclusion, Chair, if citizens were enabled to directly elect their President – the recent unfortunate remark by the current President that a political party is more important than the country and citizens would have been avoided. I thank you. [Time expired.]


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE: Chairperson, our Constitution recognises the intrinsic worth of all human beings. Designed to deepen democracy, it fosters the restoration of human dignity to the majority of South African citizens who are victims of centuries of slavery, imperialism, colonialism, exclusion and other forms of oppression and human degradation. Recognising the injustices of the past, South Africa positioned on the journey of healing seeks to achieve solidarity as we move towards realising equality and advancement of human rights and freedoms. Our history teaches us that rights become expeditiously and fully realised when citizens are engaged in the decision processes which affect the lives.


Our government has therefore since the advent of democracy sought to ensure that all citizens of this country are afforded their fundamental human rights, including the right to participate in the obligations to protect and promote the realisation of rights government and other organs of state. This is a concept that is intrinsically linked to that of accountability.


The Freedom Charter, as adopted in Kliptown on 26 June 1955, espouses the values of human dignity, equality and freedom. These are the values that guided the content of our Constitution and that define who we are as a people. We mark 2015 as the year of the Freedom Charter unique in being the first time ever that the people of South Africa converged to formulate their own vision of an alternative society.


This was when citizens across the political spectrum gathered under the banner of the Congress of the People, in unity and emboldened to shape a different reality to the governance ideology of that time and beyond. Our current notion of citizen participation derives largely from the inclusive participatory and engagement-driven nature of this gathering whose charter serves as a foundation of our progressive Constitution. Our aspirations and commitment towards participatory governance can thus be tracked back to Kliptown in 1955 when our people declared collectively in the Freedom Charter that the people shall govern.


In ensuring that people shall govern, the Reconstruction and Development White Paper of 1995 sought to effectively address the problems of poverty and the gross inequality evident in almost all aspects of South African society. It called for an active partnership with civil society as well as business and labour in the transformation of our country. This White Paper set out a context for participatory governance with this understanding that development is not about the delivery of goods to a passive citizenry but rather about the involvement and growing empowerment of our people.


At the core of South Africa’s national psyche is the notion of citizen participation and accountability as reflected in the participatory nature in the process of drafting the Constitution. This process involved many South Africans in the largest participation programme ever carried out in a democratic South Africa, and which after nearly two years of intensive consultations gave effect to our Constitution, therefore representing the collective wisdom of South African people. It is this collective wisdom of the South African people that government continues to draw onto this day.


The rights of all citizens to have their basic needs met is outlined in chapter two of our Constitution with section 195 further stating that the people’s needs must be responded to and that the public must be encouraged to participate in policy making. This far-reaching statement puts a huge obligation on the state to ensure that our people are not left out of the policy formulation and implementation process.


The Constitution obliges municipalities to encourage the involvement of community and community organisations in local government. In terms of the basic values and principles governing public administration, it calls for people’s needs to be responded to and for the public to be encouraged to participate in policy making.


Informed by the Constitution, the 1997 White Paper on transforming public service delivery provided for people-centred transformation of the public service, acknowledging that public service is not a privilege in a civilised society but a legitimate expectation. The White Paper commits government to actively understand and effectively respond to the needs of the people it services, enforcing that the guiding principle of the public service in South Africa will be that of the service of the people.


The Batho Pele White Paper recognises that a transformed public service will be judged by one criterion above all, which is the efficiency and effectiveness in delivering services which meets the basic needs of all South Africans. Needless to say, the public ought to be consulted at all times to ensure that government services are indeed of the type and standard that meet their basic needs.


At the local government level, the White Paper on Local Government in 1998 signals the intervention of active citizen participation in local government and service delivery and makes reference to the role of citizens in monitoring. The Municipal Structures Act of 1998 and the Municipal Systems Act are legally binding and require local municipalities to not only consult with local communities but enable their participation in budgeting, planning and monitoring and evaluation of the municipalities’ performance. These statutes call upon municipalities to develop a culture of municipality governance that complements formal representative government within a system of participatory governance.


It is against this historic, social and legal context that the South African government seeks to, in practical terms, deepen the democracy through the participation of citizens in governance. Through instruments such as izimbizo - visits to service delivery points – and the introduction of citizen-based monitoring amongst other interventions, government seeks to place citizens at the heart of government action.


Government has introduced a citizen-based monitoring system designed to bring citizens’ experiences of service delivery into the mechanisms of government and provide for feedback. The citizen-based monitoring system will help boost partnership with civil society to better deal with issues that affect people on a daily basis as it shift the emphasis to a focus on building local level accountability through the co-ordination of monitoring information by citizens and frontline officials.


Crucial to achieving accountability and transparency, is the practice of opening-up public finances to citizens. South Africa is lauded for its fiscal transparency having been ranked first in 2010 out of a 100 countries and second in 2013 and 2015 for the transparency and accountability of its budget process. Through our budgetary process citizens are afforded an opportunity to submit their input on what they think are the priorities that government should focus on.


The Gauteng provincial treasury has recently introduced tender processes seeking to keep citizens informed in the awarding of government contracts. Through open tender processes members of society have the benefit of being observers in the processes, and this proves to be the best way to re-establish confidence and to convince bidders the award process was fair and transparent.


In addition to the expensive commitments undertaken locally to advance participatory democracy, South Africa has acceded to continental and international instruments for governance which are aimed at ensuring that as a country we lead a government that is transparent, people-centred and responsive to the needs of millions of our people. The African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, and the Open Government Partnership, OGP, are some of the instruments we have actively participated on governance.


The primary purpose of the APRM has been to foster the adoption of policies, standards and practices that lead to political stability, high economic growth, sustainable development and accelerated subregional and continental integration through sharing of experiences and reinforcement of successful and best practices.


The Open Government Partnership is a response to the 21st century call for more transparent, effective and accountable governments with institutions that empower citizens and are responsive to their aspirations. To participate in the OGP countries need to meet a stringent eligibility criterion which focuses on the country’s scoring in the areas in the areas of fiscal transparency, access to information, public official assets disclosures and citizen engagement. Government has continued to improve citizen’s access to government information, data and services offered. For example, the government communication and information service has recently launched a medium mobile application for the latest information on the whole of government.


The idea of participatory democracy is at the heart of both the APRM and the OGP which South Africa leads; with the OGP going a further step recognising civil society as being on an equal footing with government as we all seek to achieve our broader developmental objects.


As I conclude, I would like to concede that the country we seek to build by 2030 is just, fair, prosperous and equitable. As part of this prosperous country citizens should actively participate in giving solutions and be involved in the ongoing challenges that they face in their neighbourhoods, community forums, school governing bodies and all organs of civil society across the three spheres of government.


The country we seek to build is one that each and every South African can proudly call home. It is therefore up to all South Africans to unite behind this common goal of building a democratic and prosperous country. It truly is an honour to serve.


Dr H C VOLMINK: Hon Deputy Speaker, today’s debate speaks to the very reason this House exists. It reminds us that the citizens of the Republic come first. We have been put here to serve the people and we can be removed by the people. This is a simple yet powerful truth that we dare not forget. Allow me then, on behalf of our citizens, to sound a wake up call today, because it appears that many here have indeed abandoned this basic tenet.

We must begin by remembering 27 April 1994 when the citizens of our country demonstrated to the world their strength and resolution. From across our republic, many of those who had suffered the humiliation of disenfranchisement for most of their lives under the oppressive regime of the past stood free at last and filled with hope. That hope found embodiment in our Constitution with its dream of a democratic united South Africa.


However, after more than two decades under the current governing party, much of that dream has faded away. The Speaker of the House, the hon Mbete, is a poet and so, I’m sure that she and her colleagues will appreciate the words of Yeats when he said “things fall apart, the centre cannot hold”.


Indeed, for many of our citizens it appears that things are falling apart. When 8,4 million of our people are abandoned to unemployment, even as our economy staggers at a 1,3% growth rate, and when our nation is gripped by a food security crisis that has pushed childhood-acute malnutrition mortality to a shocking 11,6% with our children dying of starvation, then it seems that things may actually be falling apart.


If things appear to be falling apart, it is precisely because the centre, the governing party, can no longer hold. [Interjections.] When so many on my right have traded in the principles that they stood for, principles that once inspired so many of us, for political self-preservation the centre will not hold. And so to the hon members of the governing party in this House I say how dare you. How dare you stand by while Chapter 9 institutions are being brutally assaulted by political bullies ... [Interjections.] ... when a known ally of the President can be named head of the IEC while the Public Protector is reproved her office deprived of vital resources because she dares to speak the truth to power? [Interjections.]


To the hon Ministers who randomly appear here, how dare you treat the very real needs of South Africans so flippantly? When one Minister tells our embattled youth that “students must fall”, even as the doors of learning are closed and not open to them, and while another Minister says about the severe water shortages that there is no crisis, denialism, well, I’ll tell you what, to those families in Johannesburg last week whose taps ran dry, this is indeed a crisis. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


And to our hon President, how dare you, Sir? How dare you say that your party comes first before South Africa? [Interjections.] You put your interests before the citizens. South Africa doesn’t serve you, you serve South Africa. [Interjections.]


Kwenzeka ntoni kuni malungu e-ANC? Kutheni nizikhethela indlela enifuna ukuhamba ngayo? [Uwele-wele.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)


[What is happening to the members of the ANC? Why do you choose what you want to do?]


You need to remember that all of this, all that we do here is supposed to be for the citizens.


Coming back to 1994, the miracle was not just that we defied the fears of many across this world who believed that our country would have a blood bath. The miracle, once again, was the strength and resolution of our citizens, a power that transmuted the lived reality in our country from one of oppression to a new reality that held the promise of democracy for all. It is that same power of our citizens that we call upon now to transform our current dispensation, marked by failing government into a completely new reality, a South Africa in which citizens finally enjoy freedom, freedom to live in safety, to have security and to enjoy their lives under a government that self-sacrificially serves them, a South Africa in which citizens experience fairness as institutions that protect their rights are strengthened and cherished and a South Africa in which citizens have the opportunity to work in meaningful jobs to provide for their families, to see their children reach their greatest dreams.


So, to all our citizens who are listening today, I want to reassure you things will not fall apart, not as long as there are members of the DA in these benches. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Because what the DA stands for, what we will fight for is freedom, fairness and opportunity. That is our pledge to you as the citizens and that is our sworn duty as servants of the people of this great Republic. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr T RAWULA: We have come here to debate a very important topic about ensuring that the voice of the people is heard in the manner in which this country is run. All of us here, as it is tradition to come here and talk rhetoric and theorise about citizen participation in a democracy while in your own parties you have no space to hear the voice of the people. The EFF is the only party that listens to the people. [Interjections.]


In 2014 the EFF developed its own election manifesto after engaging in a thorough community consultation process. The demand for a national minimum wage of R4 500, that the ANC and the DA rejected here last week, was as a result of the people’s demands. The demand for a minimum salary of R12 500 for mineworkers came directly from the mineworkers themselves.


The EFF is still committed to see that this demand is attained. We demanded that the government provides household subsidies and the reduction of the term for bond repayments from 20 years to 10 years to ensure that all South Africans have access to good quality houses. This demand came from the people. That is participatory democracy.


The demand for free education till attainment of a first degree was in the first election manifesto of the EFF and it was a result of the EFF listening to both, students and parents, voicing their concerns about financial exclusion at university. That is participatory democracy.


When the ANC, even the racist DA, all of a sudden hypocritically acclaimed that they have championed the cause of free education, South Africans simply laughed at them. They know which party represented their wishes for free education long before it became a topical issue. As we speak now, the EFF branches across the country have embarked on an intensive listening campaign called mamela which means thetshelesa in Tshivenda, to listen to the needs of our people on the ground so that as we develop our local government election manifesto we are informed by nothing else but the needs of the people. That is participatory democracy.


It is not the theoretically laden interpretation of democracy that you all have here which will not lead to any significant improvement in the lives of the people. The people of South Africa must know right here and now that if they want to have any say in the governing of their country, the only party that will listen to them is the EFF. The only party that will listen to the voice of domestic workers, security guards, gardeners, petrol attendants, the unemployed and all those marginalised by the ANC since 1994, the EFF is here. [Interjections.]


South Africans must act wisely. They must demand that their voice is heard. The ANC and their bedfellows in the DA have been deaf to the cries of the people for too long and that is why they will reject both these parties during the elections next year. We call on all security guards, domestic workers and farm workers to call those who call themselves unionists to support them in their call for minimum wage. We call on Archbishop Blade Nzimande of the communist party to come here and demand minimum wage. We remain the only representatives of the interests of the workers.


Our view as workers, the backbone of this economy can only be guaranteed if the interests of the workers are put at the centre. These are the questions that you must ask: How do you deepen democracy when the most critical institution, which is Parliament, is unable to put the interests of the workers at the centre? How do you deepen democracy when you refuse to give them just the minimum wage of R4 500? How could a person who is a security guard trust that this institution can deepen democracy when that person is working under very bad conditions, dying and just being paid R1 500? How do students, who demand free education and are continuously excluded, trust that this Parliament can deepen democracy? We are saying to the people of South Africa they must reject the ANC. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, right at the outset, I think there should be a disclaimer to this debate, because I think we must all remember that this very Parliament, through the House Chairperson, hon Frolick, is engaged in a process of seeing how we can deepen democracy through entrenching citizen participation and accountability. This has been a process that we have been engaged with for some time now, and I think that it is one that we need to finalise. All political parties and all members speaking here for an hour is not actually going to get us to the nub of the problem.


But, having said that, the hon Deputy Minister of Public Service and Administration referred to the fact that 2015 is the year of the Freedom Charter, and referred to Kliptown 1955. Yes, indeed, I think we today have to laud those very noble people who crafted the Freedom Charter and the ideals that inform it. But the question is, is it not time to revisit the relevance and the implementation of each of those noble principles. We need to ask ourselves whether the current government has delivered on the needs of our citizens, and to what extent.


The violent service delivery protests that we see around the country do not allow us to say that we have arrived. We need to ask ourselves whether we have really achieved harmony and reconciliation amongst all the citizens in our land. The answer to that is no.


The actions and interactions between hon members in this very House, not even a few hours ago, suggest that we have not yet arrived. Arrive, we shall, I believe, but it is going to take a concerted effort from all patriotic South Africans to work towards achieving the aims and objectives that the citizens of this country desire.


The hon Deputy Minister also spoke about izimbizo. Yes, izimbizo just become government gatherings of a political party. I have been to a number of such izimbizo in KwaZulu-Natal. You will find government delivering food parcels. It doesn’t become a listening exercise; it becomes a telling exercise. We should be there to listen to the needs of the people and act on what they desire, but, to a large extent, that does not happen.


As the roots of our democracy begin to broaden and deepen, it is imperative that we have an active and engaged citizenry. Since the advent of democracy in 1994, one has observed a gradual relaxation of such public participation — from a very proactive to a now almost exclusively reactive civil society. People are talking past each other. In this very Parliament, staff and the bureaucrats deployed in Parliament can’t find each other to reach consensus on the needs of the staff. Why is it taking so long? It has been seven days now that the Secretary to Parliament and the union cannot find each other to resolve the problems.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh, your time has expired.


Mr N SINGH: Remember, the problems that the workers are experiencing there directly impact on us as Members of this House. We need to start talking to each other in South Africa.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh, you do know that your time has expired?


Mr N SINGH: Thank you.


Mr E K SIWELA: Deputy Speaker, hon members, good afternoon. Once again, we are called upon to talk about how we can deepen our democracy. I wish to state from the outset that the ANC is the champion of democracy and we will continue to do everything possible to enhance and promote democratic values. [Applause.]


The ANC-led government derives it mandate from the people and therefore remains accountable to them. Public participation and accountability as a means of strengthening our democracy is fostered through the implementation of various programmes such as government izimbizo, the Presidential Call Centre, the Siyahlola Presidential Monitoring Programme, and participation in Integrated Development Plans, IDP, at local government level.


Contrary to what we have just heard now, the government imbizo is a means of reporting back to the people and of receiving immediate feedback on the issues of governance. It is therefore important for people from all walks of life, represented and unrepresented, to take full advantage of the programme. This programme offers them a unique opportunity to express their genuine views on the quality of services extended to them. Government demonstrates its responsiveness and openness, among other things, through izimbizo. It is therefore not a vehicle through which to deliver food parcels, but a means to listen to the views of the people.


In the local government sphere, the people are also given an opportunity to participate in IDP processes. These IDP processes should be taken seriously by all as they help to shape the kind of development initiatives that people want to see happening in their areas. They are also invited to participate in and comment on the tabled budget as individuals and as organised groups such as NGOs, CBOs and others.


The Office of the President offers a unique opportunity to all South Africans to raise matters directly with the Presidency. The call centre is a powerful tool at the disposal of all South Africans. They should also use it to interact with the Presidency. Through the call centre, issues are raised and the President is able to do follow-ups with relevant stakeholders while keeping the complainant up to date with developments. Some of the issues raised by the public get recognition and are mentioned by the President during the state of the nation address.


The Presidential isimbizo programme continues to be a part of oversight and an opportunity for the President to interact with the public directly.


Recently, as part of the Siyahlola programme — though which the President and the executive visit communities to check the progress of the implementation of government programmes — the people of Bushbuckridge had a first-hand experience and opportunity to interact with the President and the executive. They raised matters which were subsequently attended to by the President and the executive. This once again demonstrates that these izimbizo are not just mere talk shops.


In conclusion, I wish to say that, as the ANC-led government rolls out these programmes, citizens should attend so that they are able to remain informed about government programmes. Not only that, but citizens should also use the opportunity to influence government priorities. By participating in these meetings and programmes, the people also learn and gain knowledge about government works and appreciate the role that government plays in bettering their lives. The ANC lives and the ANC leads. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr M S MABIKA: Hon Deputy Speaker, since the first democratic election in 1994, South Africa has evolved from apartheid authoritarianism to procedural electoral democracy.


Democracy, however, is far more than mere procedures and ballots. Democracy comes about when citizens actively participate and take ownership of the political direction of their communities and the country at large.


Today we are discussing participatory democracy. What does that mean? It essentially means that citizens are directly involved in decisions made by government, be it at local, provincial or national level.


Local level government is the most appropriate forum for citizens to actively participate and involve themselves in shaping our democracy. It is at municipal level that citizens can hold ward councillors directly accountable and where they can express their satisfaction or dissatisfaction. It is at municipal level that community members can attend meetings and hold rallies where they can protest and gather to carry their messages over directly to their elected public representatives.


At provincial and national levels, citizens actively participate through elections. Elections are however the only obvious route to direct participation provided for. Unfortunately, there are no means provided to hold specific public representatives responsible for unsatisfactory circumstances in any specific given area. This is a distinct disadvantage of our current electoral system.


As I speak, uMkhanyakude is burning because of a lack of accountability on the part of the government of the day. Learners are very finding it very difficult to get to their schools.


Indirect participation at national level is positive and people should involve themselves and support institutions which strengthen democracy. In particular, the Office of the Public Protector and the Human Rights Commission are examples of such institutions. By supporting these institutions, citizens have the opportunity to contribute to the evolution of our democracy to maturity.


Other forms of public participation include testifying at hearings, taking part in public opinion surveys, and serving on advisory bodies.


In addition, our people can also engage in direct action such protest, which constitute a powerful form of civil society participation in government.


Another avenue open to citizens to participate in democracy is to make use of the constituency offices of Members of this honourable House. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Ms C N MAJEKE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the former chairperson of the Independent Electoral Commission, Mama Brigalia Bam, in her book; Democracy - More Than Just Elections, does not only provide an insight to various dimensions of her knowledge and wisdom on deepening democracy but she reaffirms that South Africa does need an electoral regime that would encourage great responsibility and accountability from citizens and political leaders.


Indeed electoral systems do play a significant role in the creation of a truly democratic society as a critical variable in the creation of a participatory deliberative model of democracy, which is central in the enrichment and strengthening of democratic citizenship.


The greater the number of participative deliberative arenas with high level of deliberative participation; the higher the level of intimacy of democracy; moreover the diffusion of these arenas is also the most promising way for actualising the substance of democratic citizenship.


Section 42(3) of the South African Constitution states that:


The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution.


If this is to be realised we need to place the power of the people back to the people. We need to ensure that people themselves are determining their destiny.


If this is to be the people’s parliament, it must then be rooted within the people themselves. We need to reconsider time, space and content we spend with the people during oversight. It should be a meaningful and productive engagement with citizens. Amongst other things that should be done in facilitating effective and meaningful citizen participation are as follows: Firstly, there is an urgent need to restore ethical and value base public administration; in this regard there is a need to return to issues of public orientation where shared or common interests of citizens are the campus, rather than a philosophy dominated by profits or individual interests. Public representative must shift gear extremely fast into community practitioners.


Secondly, we need an organisational culture not ad hoc, not arbitrary, nepotistic, cronyism and other factors that destroy citizen activism. Lastly, there has to be the development of the people for people to develop themselves is the route to go. The power must remain with the citizens for democracy has to be deepened. 


Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, Mahatma Gandhi said, “I understand democracy as something that gives the weak same chance as the strong”. In a democracy citizens – by means of adult suffrage – place their sovereignty in the hands of elected representatives, and just to add, as servants of the people and not as very important people, VIPs.  


As the citizen’s elected representatives, we in the National Assembly, in turn elect the President of the Republic of South Africa who in turn exercises executive power and authority with his appointed Ministers and with the assistance of our public administration. With power and authority comes the risk of the abuse of power.


Democracy remains a paper trail if those entrusted with power and authority cannot be held accountable in public for their acts and omissions, for their decisions, their policies, their expenditure and their behaviour. Academically, it is put that accountability requires at least three stages:


In the first instance, the executive must feel an obligation to account. I am going to quote Gandhi again; he said, “The spirit of democracy requires a change of heart”. Secondly, as the National Assembly, we must be in a position to interrogate the executive and to question the adequacy of the information provided or the legitimacy of the conduct committed.


Thirdly, as this House, it is our responsibility and duty to pass judgement on the executive. Is our democracy but a mere paper trail? Has our executive displayed an obligation and willingness to account? Have we as the National Assembly been allowed by the majority party to interrogate the executive, to question the adequacy of the information provided or the legitimacy of their conduct?


Has the majority party allowed us to carry out our responsibility towards the electorate and the peoples of South Africa to hold the executive to account and to pass judgement and where necessary sanction? The answer is a resounding No!


We are failing in our duties and responsibilities, we are failing our democracy and we are failing the people who placed their sovereignty and their faith in our hands.


More and more opposition parties in this House and civil society turn to the courts and to Chapter 9 institutions to ensure some form of accountability, transparency, answerability, and responsibility. In turn, the executive and the majority party attack and undermine the judiciary and the Office of the Public Protector.


This week the Public Protector was forced to close down some offices! Why? Because the office of Public Protector has stood firm, is putting our country ahead of party, is being faithful to the Republic and its people, and is upholding the Constitution and the rule of law!


What is happening in our country? Well, first of all, Gandhi said a democracy must be utterly selfless. It must think and dream not in terms of self or party but only of democracy. But like its President the ANC has put the President and the party before the country! I thank you. [Applause.]


Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the need for social change is on-going - firstly because society is never perfect and secondly the list of problems being expressed by people in South Africa is a long one - and grows daily. Public participation in a democratic society is both vital and challenging.


Public participation based on the belief that those who are affected by a decision have a right to be involved in the decision-making process, includes the promise that the public’s contribution will impact on decision. Due to a clear majority with a clear party mandate the perception has however, been that extensive public input is sought in numerous forums, only to be ignored. Whilst I do not see this happening anywhere near to the degree it did in the early days, and I have in fact seen input influence outcomes - perceptions rule!


Participation is key if decisions are to be sustainable - recognising and communicating the needs and interests of all of society defuses tensions that arise when people feel that they are not heard. Information on how people can participate is crucial. Feed back regarding how participation affected the outcome is also important.


Stephen Grootes, a political commentator, said the success of the recent student protests revealed the ANC’s inability to deal with a multiracial, multiclass and multiparty group of people who refuse to buy into the old political narrative. I see it differently, but what is important is that government officials should show up and be seen to be accountable to the public; when more than 10 thousand students are protesting not appearing can lead a nonviolent protest to become violent.


A student from Tshwane University of Technology, at the Union Buildings protest recently – with his eyes closed after exposure to teargas said, “It’s wrong. We were invited here by the president, and we’ve been waiting all day. We had to react. We had to show the president that this is serious”.


There are, of course, always many agendas at play, but looking at the issue of violence or nonviolence as a means of social participation, how people perceive the ability of each to actually bring about beneficial change is a deciding factor.


The ACDP believes that wise democratic processes are those which utilize a community’s or society’s diversity to deepen shared understanding and produce outcomes of long-term benefit - they should not seek to divide society. To the extent people feel fully heard; they will be able to hear others. In order to deepen democracy, the ACDP calls on government to identify and pre-empt potential protests by ensuring the means for people with grievances to be heard and see change. Thank you.


Ms N R MOKOTO: Deputy Speaker and colleagues, good afternoon. I want to start my contribution to this debate by illustrating something very interesting which happened in the 1990s when the communication Task Group Report, Comtask Report, was handed over to the current democratic government of the ANC, regarding the views of the ordinary South African citizens and their perceptions on what really government is or the state is, and that’s how it goes. They have reflected that government is a big, scary, stout, white man wearing a black suit; who is not approachable and not accessible and whom when he speaks they cannot understand. Today, as the ANC-led government I want to highlight that we have changed that perception because our people continue to view our government much more differently than they did at that time. Today they see our government as a government that is responsive, caring, approachable, and accessible, has got leaders that they know and can relate to. That is how they have captured our government. For me I think it clearly tells how much the ANC has gone forward in terms of ensuring that we entrench democracy, accountability, accessibility; we promote citizen involvement and participation.


As I enter into this debate, I want to highlight that I will be talking about the role of Parliament in re-enforcing this mandate to the society. We all know that as South Africa we have a very unique democratic system which has emerged from a traumatic past derived from conditions where our masses were deprived of their most basic fundamental human rights; their right to access to information; their right to access government services; their right to access leadership when they require it; their right to be heard; their right to participate; their right to decide on where the resources of this government should be spent; and their right to determine the national programme of action.


Today as the ANC-led government we have made it very possible for our people to take charge of their lives; to direct their lives; to promote service delivery; to even get government to account to them on the programmes and plans that they have and how they intend going forward. This we would like to take as part of paying homage to our forebears who have long before this democracy when the ANC was formed. They took it upon themselves to selflessly risk their lives and future to make sure that we are able to have a government that is responsive; we are able to have a government that is led by the people for the people. The Freedom Charter is one such document that illustrates how it has happened and we continue to pride ourselves with the leadership of those forebears who have made it possible that today South Africa remains democratic, which is envied by the world.


With the current Constitution we want to highlight that we are very certain that we are still relevant as the ANC. The principles of the Freedom Charter that are enshrined in the Constitution continue to be relevant today as they were when the Freedom Charter was adopted. It is our view that with that the ANC is going to push forward to make sure that people’s interest is taken forward. We are going to push forward to make sure that we remain the custodians of the people’s interests and aspirations. We are not going to go back. [Applause.] Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, AIC believes in real democracy. All citizens now should enjoy fruits of freedom. Democracy should mean more than just being the government of the people by the people and for the people. It should mean more than that. Democracy should mean that all the people should be equal before the law. No one has got the right to take the law in to his or her own hands. And democracy is not just that some are being more equal than others. In democracy there should be employment of citizens and the citizens should be given some necessary skills so that they can be easily employed. It should mean eradication of corruption and making the leadership and government accountable to the nation.


As AIC we believe that the people should take centre stage in governance; hence I quote from the Freedom Charter, “The People Shall Govern!” People must govern now. People should not be afraid of expressing their views. The public hearings should be meaningful in the sense that their views should be considered; otherwise, if the views of the people after the public hearings are not considered it means that the democracy just becomes meaningless. Those in power should listen to the people in the ground. As the AIC we believe in to what is called or referred to as grassroots democracy. The government must be accountable to the people.


The monies that are always allocated to departments, institutions and the three spheres of government must be accounted for, because these are tax-payer’s monies. Each and every year the Auditor-General is complaining about departments that do not perform in terms of treasury, regulations and policies. Monies are being misused, stolen and there is always unauthorised or wasteful and fruitless expenditure. These are the things that should be avoided in our democracy.


All people should observe the rule of law, and defeating the ends of justice is not part of our democracy. We should learn to be honest, responsible, accountable and eager to develop and grow the economy of this country. We should fight against the abuse and violence against children and women. The killing of people and policemen should not be regarded as part of our democracy. It is totally against the democracy.


There should be no intimidation of other people by others and oracles should be done away with because they do not assist us. It is the law of the people not the ‘law of the jungle’ that should govern. Everyone should be equal to the task.


AIC is for real democracy and we are preparing the people to take centre stage in governance. Power to the people! Thank you.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, when the hon Mokgotso said that some people see the government as a big white scary man in a black suit, I thought ... That’s really strange because she is attacking a member of her own party and she really should leave the hon Williams alone. That’s not a nice way to describe them. [Applause.]


But the ANC and accountability are no longer able to be said in the same sentence together without invoking a sigh or laughter from the general public because only the ANC circle of “yes” Minister actually believes that the party believes in true accountability and adherence to the Constitution.


President Jacob Zuma articulated this position so well with his famous ‘the ANC comes first’ quote at the KwaZulu-Natal conference two weeks ago. And I heard they all agreeing with me. They are agreeing with the President.


The view of the President is one that the Constitution of our country and the Oath of office that he swore to upheld plays second fiddle to the needs and interests of the ANC. Translated, President Zuma is accountable for his actions to the ANC and not the people of South Africa.


So, when the Constitution and its provisions for accountability are simply ignored to protect the interests of the President and his network of cronies, we know that the ANC is disingenuous when it proclaims to be the ‘defender of Constitution’.


The ANC attack drones squad led by the hon Motshekga, have done everything in their power to delegitimise and undermine Chapter 9 institutions, the Public Protector being the most obvious.


In the ANC’s rushed haste to absorb the President of any and all wrong doing around the extravagant spending at Nkandla, including the bizarre, amateurish home video from Minister Nhleko leading to his subsequent whitewash report, the governing party has sought to dismantle public accountability at all costs to protect one man.

President Zuma personifies non accountability and the erosion of democracy in our country. Former ANC leaders are right to believe that he has become a liability to the country and to their party. Since President Zuma came to power, we have seen scandal after scandal. For a man who has begged to have his day in court, he has done everything possible to avoid it.


It was only the DA that had to drag the President kicking and screaming to the Supreme Court of Appeal just to get the spy tapes after he used every trick in the book to delay his accountability for the Arms Deal. And once Again we reiterate our commitment to ensure that the President has his day in court.


And President Zuma knows no shame when it comes to dodging personal responsibility for his actions. He wants us to believe that Nkandla just happened and he knew nothing about it. For that he is a liability.


During Guptagate when his friends and unofficial South African Prime Minister, Atul Gupta took over Waterkloof Airforce Base for his daughters wedding, President Zuma says he knew nothing about it. For that he is a liability.


The President now wants a R4 billion plane just so he doesn’t have to refuel on trips to New York and Moscow. What kind of a leader is prepared to blow R4 billion on a plane instead of funding Higher Education? For that he is a liability.


The culture of non-accountability has seeped into every structure of the ANC, even former President Mothlanthe said in a Business Day interview that the leadership of the party doesn’t actually believe in its own Constitution resulting in the death of the Alliance.


Minister Blade Nzimande refuses to accept responsibility for #FeesMustFall. Minister Rob Davies refuses to accept responsibility for the AGOA mess, the President of the Women’s league is a fraudster and the ANC benches are littered with people who have looted the state at the expense of the poor with zero consequences. You see in the ANC, breaking the law ...


Ms N R BHENGU: Point of order, Chair.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.


Ms N R BHENGU: The hon member says the Minister of Basic Education is a fraudster. That’s attacking her personal integrity.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member did you say that?


Mr D W MACPHERSON: No, I didn’t. Let me repeat what I have said. The President of the Women’s League is a fraudster and the ANC benches are littered with people who have looted the state at the expense of the poor with zero consequences.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you can’t make such a statement, unless you do so with a substantive motion. Withdraw it hon member.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Sorry, yes. No, if I may just address you, the Women’s league President, the hon Dlamini was convicted in a court of law for Travelgate ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?


Mr D W MACPHERSON: ... therefore she is a fraudster. That is a factual statement without a substantive motion.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The requirements of this House are that when you make such a statement, you must do so by way of a substantial motion. So, we request you to withdraw?


Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I am listening to you.


Mr M WATERS: When one has to make a substantive motion. That is when is untested in the court of law. What the hon Macpherson is referring to is a court case where the hon Minister was found guilty of fraud. She pleaded guilty. It’s in the box. There is a court case. There is a judgment. She pleaded guilty to fraud with regards to the Travelgate scandal that robs Parliament a few years ago. He has nothing to withdraw.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Waters, the Rules of the House require that when such a claim is made, it must be made by way of a substantive motion in the House.


Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, is not a claim, is a fact.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, this is the House where you made those Rules that require that.

Mr M WATERS: No, that is before it has been tested in the court of law.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, it is not qualification member.


Mr M WATERS: We cannot ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no qualification.


Mr M WATERS: We cannot doubt a judge of a court ruling.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, hon member does not doubt the judge, is the Rules as they require us to act in the House.


Mr M WATERS: Okay, it’s a fact, is not an allegation, allegation is a substantive motion. This is the fact. She is a fraudster.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have made a ruling hon member, if you ...


Mr M WATERS: You have an incorrect ruling.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you I am wrong, you come back to the appropriate structures and do that. For the purposes of this debate, we request that the member withdraw.

Mr D W MACPHERSON: I withdraw the record of law found the Women’s League President guilty of fraud. Anyway, you see in the ANC, breaking the law is rewarded with a promotion to Parliament. And I can see many see many of you here today.


As a country, we are in desperate need of leaders that embrace the values of responsibility, accountability and a dogmatic willingness to put South Africa first. Leaders that protect the Constitution at all costs. These leaders no longer exist in the ANC, but are rather only shadows of their former selves, pretending to emulate a cause for which they no longer believe in.


It is only the DA that fights for the Constitution at every turn, ensuring that institutions of government are protected and everyone is held accountable for their actions.


And the truth further proves that the ANC don’t believe in internal democracy. One only needs to look at the eThekwini conference which has been delayed actually five times because of vote rigging. The provincial conference is now being challenged for vote rigging. The Premier League is known to be buying votes ahead of the 2017 conference to elect the hon Dlamini Zuma as their next President. And slate politics are rife in the ANC. That’s purely undemocratic. That’s the ANC that President Mohlanthe was talking about. An ANC that is dead to its own Constitution and an alliance that is dead to the ANC. I thank you for the opportunity. Thank you.


Mr P P MABE: Hon Deputy Speaker, maybe to preface this one we must just remind the hon “Macfallon” ... [Interjections.] ... Macpherson. We don’t have such surnames in Phalaborwa; that’s why it’s difficult. [Interjections.] You know, decent neighbours are not those when they visit another house they want everything that they see there. They want to look like us. They talk about our conferences and all of this. We are loyal to the ANC. We have contested elections on the basis of a manifesto, which was built on the basis of our own resolutions. The people of South Africa have affirmed the ANC to take the lead, and, by doing so, they have accepted our own resolutions. So, we are loyal to the ANC and are loyal to this country, because we are shaping this country through resolutions of the ANC.


So, it is very important to understand that, because the legs of lies are very short. Our people must avoid affirming individuals who stand on public platforms and spit venom, tell lies, and seek to confuse our people about everything else they stand for, because when elections come they are going to feed our people propaganda. [Interjections.]


We are the ones who ushered in democracy in South Africa. You are in this democratic Parliament today because we led a project that ushered in liberation. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Had it not been for us, people would be somewhere now trying their luck elsewhere. We have ensured that we have a democracy that embraces all political parties. We have even accepted the advent of social media here ... [Interjections.] ... you know.


So, one of the things you have seen through social media is the latest notion of hashtags. Students, out of understanding their own frustrations, came up with a very interesting concept which was now talking to their own aspirations – things that we have gone through ourselves as student leaders. We have worked for ... [Inaudible.] There is a process in Parliament, if people do not know. We have an ethics committee here. When issues are raised, they are addressed through the relevant committees of Parliament. When members of the ANC are charged with wrongdoing, they are the first to go to court; make sure that they can account for those things; prove that they are not guilty.


This must be respected. We are doing so because we respect democracy. We respect this democracy that we have given to all of you to be here. [Interjections.] So, you are here on our invitation. It is very important to understand that. [Interjections.] [Applause.]


Now, students have ushered in a concept called #FeesMustFall. I’m sure some of you might not know what hashtag, or #, is. Hashtag is an important symbol used to make popular statements on social media. Students have used the hashtag handle to sell their struggles. You will know how social media has been important.


In America, Barack Obama emerged as the president of that country through using social media. Political parties here today, when they draft their campaigning strategy, do not exclude social media, because social media is also an important platform to drive and propel forward democracy. We do accept these conversations, because where we come from we had a lot of bars. We also had taverns. What people do in taverns is that they make noise until the wee hours of the morning. They make it difficult for us to go to church and attend to our responsibilities. [Interjections.]


So, we in the ANC have always understood that. One of the things that we have done – because we also need to talk to the people of South Africa and not only respond to the howling masses here – in the build-up to local government elections, as part of enhancing this participatory democracy, is build in systems to allow our citizens to be able to complain. So, these days we are not just doing izimbizo. We also have platforms where people can load and lock in their complaints with municipalities, whether about a leaking tap, whether about a road that needs resealing and all of that; and municipalities are able to respond adequately and attend to those; because, today, members of the ANC must know this: we are even accused of the drought. When there is no rain, it is the problem of the ANC. [Interjections.]


People can’t accept simple things like climate change. You know, there is the problem of climate change. We have not had rain here. No, these people ... not the people who were part of the People’s Assembly in 1955, not the people that were part of the Freedom Charter that ensured that we have participatory democracy. [Interjections.] That’s why we are with you. That’s why with you: to educate you about some of the things that you might have missed in your own upbringing. [Interjections.]


There are a lot of things that you missed in your own upbringing. One of the things you missed, you missed the ability to fight for your people. Aristotle said: Democracy is for indigents, not for men of property. We started in 1912 not as men of property, but as indigents. We traversed like that with our people. We are the ones, hon Filtane, by the way, that hosted the real Congress of the People; we, in 1955. We convened - I mean, members of the EFF would know – people’s assemblies in the processes leading up to 1955 ... ourselves. [Interjections.] We convened people’s assemblies ourselves. [Interjections.] We also own the notion of fighter ourselves.


Ms H O HLOPHE: Order, Chair.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the order, hon member?


Ms H O HLOPHE: The hon member must not mislead the public ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order.


Ms H O HLOPHE: ... [Inaudible.] ... heard me, Chair, what I am saying.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are debating, hon member.

Ms H O HLOPHE: No, I’m not debating.




Ms H O HLOPHE: There is no assembly that the ANC has convened ... [Inaudible.] ... killing each other when you try to call a mass meeting.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Hlophe ...


Mr P P MABE: No, no, no. That’s fine. That’s okay. We convened a lot of people’s assemblies leading up to the process of 1955. We convened the real Congress of the People; we, the real fighters. Comrade Norman Mashabane, fellow fighter, may his soul rest in peace. He is our one. The real fellow fighter came from the ANC. He is the son, born and bred amongst the people of Phalaborwa. Today, the people of Phalaborwa, where we come from, have a community radio station. The essence of a community radio station is ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mabe, your time has expired.


Mr P P MABE: ... to make sure that we make democracy alive. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, cry the beloved South Africa under ANC rule. The country is going down now as we speak. [Interjections.] So, the ANC’s Deputy Minister came here to offer the standard rhetorical promises of 1994 with very little to deliver. Thank you. Stop respecting the DM democracy; start applying it. That’s what this country needs right now. You may respect it as much as you want. What the people of South Africa expect of the ruling party is the application of democracy. Oversight processes are very shallow and do not enable people to directly make their public representatives to account.


There is an urgent and greater need to reform the oversight system so that it enables citizens to hold members of this House accountable. These reforms should include making more resources available, instead of telling us time and time again that there is no money for doing oversight. So despicable is the administration and failure to take people on democracy such that we cannot do oversight next week exactly because the ruling party doesn’t know how to manage and implement democracy. People are crying in the streets and in the precincts of Parliament because the ANC doesn’t know how to implement democracy.


Local government ward committees also have their own limitations, given that they have turned into spaces for party cadre deployment rather than forums for direct participation of the greater community – democracy withdrawn from people. This should be a platform for what is called ward-based planning and implementation.


For local government to be effective in ensuring direct citizen participation, it needs to develop and implement an effective and efficient monitoring and evaluation mechanism that is driven by the people, not a few elites. [Interjections.] People have turned to protest because there is no effective accountability, and that is the only time that the ANC has geared itself up to listen. They have to jump about, bend everything and then ...


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Could you be quiet so that the speaker can be heard.


Mr M L W FILTANE: ... and you tell us that there is accountability – there is not. [Interjections.] People’s power has been taken, usurped from them, and that is how they express themselves, and the ANC seems to be enjoying the game. [Interjections.] Time and time again the police get involved in spaces in which they should not be participating.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... Hon member, just hold on. Hon members, please, man. You can’t be shouting and screaming the way you are doing. [Interjections.] No, no, it is not in order, hon members. Please! No, no, no, no.


Mr M L W FILTANE: Call the bouncers.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... [Inaudible.] No, no, no. Don’t do that. Please don’t do that. Hon members, order! Go ahead, hon Filtane.


Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you. I will start ...


... apho bendiyeke khona. Isatshisa! (Translation of isiXhosa sentence follows.)


[... where I stopped. It is still a hot topic!]


Maybe through the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency there is a need to build in performance contracts for these Ministers and other executing authorities so that they can be assessed on what the socioeconomic impact of their actions and expenditure are about. The ruling party must stop theorising about the concept; must not actualising it. The power of the people must be returned to them. Vox populi, vox Dei.


Oku kukuthi ilizwi labantu lilizwi leNkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa sentence follows.)


[This means that the voice of the people is the voice of the Lord.]


Let’s revisit the Van Zyl Slabbert report and use is what is applicable and what we can salvage from it. Let’s get democracy back on track. Then we will get South Africa working one more time. Thank you. [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


The House adjourned at 18:53.





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