Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 31 Oct 2018


No summary available.




The Council met at 15:08.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members. In accordance with rule of the Council, Rule 247(1) there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice and the sitting will be dedicated to questions. Before we proceed with the questions may I recognise the hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Thanks Chair. I am just asking the House for indulgence in terms of us praying that thing always; that stalk called the Mace. If maybe the Chair can explain as to why we are praying that stalk called the Mace.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Mokwele. It think the issue that the hon Mokwele is raising is the matter that has to be dealt with at another level, because it may as well be that the hon Mokwele must submit an amendment, to the rules of this House and to the subcommittee that is dealing with rules.
For currently we are guided by the rules that we have adopted and we shall proceed in that fashion.

The order that I am having, hon members, may I take the opportunity to welcome Ministers and Deputy Minister, special delegates from provinces and therefore ... [Inaudible.] ...


Question 254:

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the National Development Plan, have placed science and technology at the centre of our developmental agenda. To this end the Department of Science and Technology has invested in research and development initiatives that are producing patent and innovative products that are critical to the country’s drive for reindustrialisation and mineral beneficiation.

The technologies arising from this research include hydrogen platinum fuel cells and manganese battery for the energy sector. Data science and analytics, 3D printing and titanium beneficiation, artificial intelligence, mining equipments and many more other things that have been done. These technologies are at the centre of the Fourth Industrial Revolution and they are ready for commercialisation developed by our entities. More importantly, by commercialising these technologies in partnership with the private sector, South Africa will create new industries that will grow our economy and create employment.

In addition, the Department of Science and Technology funds innovation through the Technology Innovation Agency. The agency also provides technological support through testing stations that benefit Small Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, in the development of technology based products. The agency has reached over 3 000 SMMEs per year in relation to technology support through technology stations.

Furthermore, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, has established five industry innovation development centres that have been providing the cutting urge support in the new sectors

such as biomanufacturing, nanotechnology, photonics and biorefineries over the past few years. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Minister. Hon Mateme is not in the House and I am informed that the hon Prins, will take up the follow-up question.

Ms E PRINS: Hon Deputy Chair and hon Minister, thank you for the answer. My follow-up question is: I just want to know whether the department experienced any discrepancies in the process of migration and if so, what are the relevant details and how were they addressed during the migration of the project? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: In terms of our work in the Fourth Industrial Revolution, we are not really involved. I think if I understand the hon member, the migration of the Broadcasting Digital Migration, BDM, project that falls within the Department of Communications and is the work done together with telecoms. Our responsibility mainly would be in terms of driving the Fourth Industrial Revolution from a science technology development of technologies and commercialisation of technologies. We would be able to support, should we be called upon in terms of developing new technologies to support the sector. Thank you.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, giving the great need of science and technology research and development in South Africa, so you may develop our industries and capacitate our citizens, would you agree that cutting research and development funding from governmental budgets in order to be able to pay for undergraduate university fees will negatively impact our ability to be on the cutting urge of the Fourth Industrial Revolution?

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: House Chairperson, indeed, research and development funding, you would have noted hon member; publicly I have been saying that we need to ring-fence the funding that is given for research and development. That has been the proposal and this is been contained in our new White Paper that we are currently processing and finalising. However, equally in terms of the work that has been done. Funding of students definitely happens under the National Research Foundation and that work we continue to do. We have seen an increase over years in terms of the number of students, but we are able to support. Indeed, we support the issue. We do agree with you where we saying that cutting especially sometimes you find that in the middle of five-year term, we were committed or there was a commitment to give us a particular amount of money and in the middle then you cut it. If you look at it in terms of PhDs or postgraduates you literally have to do more

years, you cannot fund for one year, the following year you say you cannot fund. So, therefore that becomes the challenge.

We are continuously engaging with the National Treasury to ensure that our funding can be stable, so that it can be predictable and we can be able to plan accordingly for the future. So this will help together with redefining how we teach the curriculum so that we can be able to ensure that our society is ready for the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson and hon Minister, I would like to find out what links your collaborations are there between your research and development in the department and the research programmes at the universities because that is very important in strengthening the future forecast of the country into more initiatives and also educational programmes of the country? So, what are the links the programmes that are there linking the department’s research programmes to the universities? Thanks.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Khawula, the research and development support in universities, currently we are not funding specifically as I have indicated, what we are currently doing on the Fourth Industrial Revolution is specifically with the

science and technology entities, but we are giving quite substantive money through different programmes to universities, one, under SA Research Chairs Initiative, Sarchi, where we are funding over a period of time and they can decide which they want to fund. The other area is under centre of excellence in universities and different others that we could be able to agree.

There has not been currently specific focus and funding for specifically, the development of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. We are in discussion with various universities that are the University of Johannesburg and the Witwatersrand University, where we are in discussion to look at what is it that we can do jointly? For we believe that in the attempt to respond proactively, but comprehensively to the needs of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, especially when it deals with innovation we have to have a partnership that is comprehensive, have various universities coming together so that we do not have to interact with each individual university. So that is what we are planning. We are currently in that process and we are as well providing that pronouncement within our White Paper. Thanks.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, we do not have the fourth follow-up question. Hon Zwane, is it an after thought?
Alright, fine I will give you the chance.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson and hon Minister, I do not know what will be your thinking about this. I just want to get your idea. Don’t you think that in light of the Forth Industrial Revolution that we are now entering into as a country, it would be very important for us to actually to have a university dedicated to research only, so that we actually strengthen the research capacity of the country to inform the government decisions? What would be your thought on that?

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Zwane, I think my view personally would be I do not think it would be a good idea. I think we are getting value out of universities as they are. Expanding on them and being able to say ... because for example when you deal with global communities, most of the time they tend to want to interact with various universities so, you find a particular university is stronger in this area and you find another one is being stronger ... like for example what we are doing in areas in terms of the Centre of Excellence in Palaeosciences we are utilising the Witwatersrand University for that. So, there is a centre there and we know we can get quite good scientists and researches in that

area and then we are able to say maybe on biodiversity, then we have Rhodes or Grahamstown Universities being able to do that for you. So we are able to get various strengths from various universities.

I think just on the Fourth Industrial Revolution so, the current system I think it will work better, but as well to be able to say in each university, if you are to have them focussing on having a response either through programmes or modules even those who are doing for example commercial subjects, if I go to a business school, I should be able to as a manager, for example be able to be taught of the implications of artificial intelligence in the workplace, be taught of the impact of the Fourth Industrial Revolution within the workplace because it will impact to me as a manager. So I do not think specifically focusing it in one university will help us. That is my view in terms of the work that is being done. Thanks Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Minister. I must confess I was a bit worried because the question would be more relevant to the Minister of Higher Education. However, thank you for your sharpness.

Question 239:


Chairperson, the establishment of the science centre in Cofimvaba, is an intergovernmental collaboration effort involving the following stakeholders: the Department of Science and Technology, which is the initiator and major funder and responsible for the science engagement programme to be hosted by the science centre; the Eastern Cape Department of Education, which is the co-founder and is responsible for the science education programme to be run by the science centre; the Intsika Yethu Municipality donated the land on which the centre is being built and the Department of Basic Education will provide support to the Eastern Cape Department of Education in provision of the science education programme.

The construction, hon member, was meant to start in August 2016, and then it was delayed due to the discovery that the build site hosts a wetland. At the time when there was a plan for this, there were no sign of the site being a wetland. But however, the presence of a gully that channels storm water from the neighbouring school prompted the idea to develop an artificial wetland which would be used as an outdoor exhibition for health and life sciences. The Department of Science and Technology approached the Department of Environmental Affairs for technical assistance in the development of artificial wetland through its technical work on the site.


The Department of Environmental Affairs established the existence of an invisible natural wetland and recommended rehabilitation instead of the creation of an artificial one. There was therefore a need to first comply with the environmental regulation before building on the site. Further, the top soil at the site was found through a pre- construction geotechnical study to the very high clay content which would lead to the instability of the building if not given the necessary attention. Providing a solution to the soil problem and the need to construct a stretch of a road that connects the site to the main street resulted in the shortfall of the funding.

The Intsika Yethu did not inform the Department of Science and Technology well ahead of time that the project was expected to absorb the cost of constructing the connecting road. Absorbing the cost of the correcting the soil problem and constructing the connecting road within the original project budget would have compromised the operation of the centre by reducing the building size; hence attention was given to securing additional fund. The process to satisfying environmental regulation and the securing of the additional fund delayed the project starting with 24 months and we can indicate that the project has started and we are expecting completion by the 31 March 2019. Thank you.


Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you Minister for your answer. I gathered that in your answer you said the building is done. My follow-up question is, on our own research Minister; you have led and amended costs of a project of 61 million, which is 30 million above the original projected amount. The budget has doubled and the completion time lines are consistently moving. The ground has been broken but nothing doubling the cost. Not a brick has been laid Minister, my question is; how can you justify doubling of the cost and yet having nothing to show after all these years? I thank you Minister.


member let me correct you; the additional figure is 13 million. The additional figure is 13 million, not what you have, that’s the first issue. The second issue that I need to indicate as I said in my response is, when the site was given and the work was done, it was not anticipated that there would be issues of wetland. You can’t build a structure in an area where you know very well it is going to collapse, otherwise, you are wasting government’s money. So in protecting the resources, we had to take a step back and say, let us correct what is there. The commitment of building the site is still there, the additional amount of 13 million has been secured, not double as the hon member is saying.


The anticipated cost of construction and everything is about

28 million. No, it was not sitting at half of that, that is why I am saying the hon member must get the figures right. I did respond to a written question that was given to us. I thought the member would have utilised that as well so that they can have the figures. Chairperson we are willing to clarify further if the member is not
... we can also visit the site together with the hon members so that they can satisfy themselves.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, it’s not a question. I have been asked by the members from the Eastern Cape here that I must bring to your attention ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you just speak to the microphone.

Mr L B GAEHLER: I have been asked by the members from the Eastern Cape here that I must bring to your attention that during yesterday’s sitting in this august House, due to the condition of the air-conditioning of the House, several members felt sick yesterday. One of them is sitting next to me. As much as this morning, one of them was hospitalised, hon Rayi was hospitalised and will be discharged this afternoon. We further request leadership in


this institution to attend to these careless conditions which we are exposed to. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Minister, I think that is addressed to us here, it’s an in-House thing that we will have to deal with. There are many victims, including me; there are many victims in this House. But nevertheless, some of us, our immune system could resist falling ill and being hospitalised and so forth. I don’t have any other follow- up. Oh! You may come through hon member.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, when the original planning was done, and I mean even before that if you take the process that needs to be followed before you can build a building; apparently, no Environmental Impact Studies was done. And obviously that is the cause of these nasty surprises that came at the later stage and additional costs. Minister, can you maybe tell this House why this legal requirement wasn’t done. Thank you Chairperson.


Chairperson and hon member, indeed, as we discussed with the team, it was definitely acknowledged that because the site was donated, the impression of the team from the Department of Science and


Technology was that the site had been tested. Because remember, when you build on sites, you build differently and you for different reasons so, you can decide to build for a particular reason and then it’s allowed depending on the structure of the nature of the building.

So when the site was given, as I said the site was donated to the department, by the local government, the Intsika Yethu municipality, the department thought, which I think that the team should have made sure that they verify that everything has been done. Its only when the construction and the work had to start, that the team had to go on site to be able to see.

I think for me, where I am sitting, I am comforted by the fact that the team did not find that the area is wetland after the structure had been built because I think it would have cost us a lot of money because we would have to demolish the site. So, it’s good that at least, they were able to find that before they could start with the construction, see that there were going to be complications in terms of the area and correct it before building the structure, that is the comfort. But definitely Chair, we need to acknowledge that more caution could have been done upfront to avoid the delay.


Question 240:

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Chair and hon members, in terms of the Department of Science and Technology media buying in The New Age in 2015-16 was around R8,3 million; in 2016- 17; around R1,2 million; in 2017-18 around R5 754; in 2018-19 a zero has been spent. The services that have been sourced from the New Age media were for advertising of the departmental activities. Thank you very much.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chair, can the hon Minister assure this House that these transactions were above board and that there was nothing unbecoming? Maybe the Minister can be able to take us into confidence as to whether she has ever been to Saxonwold?       Thank you Deputy Chair.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Chairperson, Hon member, I can assure you that I have never been to Saxonwold. I have received a written question and I have responded to it, we can share it if you want to. I have got nothing to hide. I have never been there. In terms of the work that the department has been doing, I can assure the members that as the Minister I do not get involved in supply chain management issues, and therefore I can stand and vouch that I have not been doing it. I will, nevertheless communicate what


the department had communicated with me because I have also asked this question.

That the department has an approval to deviation and it is not only on The New Age. Just to share with you, we are spent on Media 24, SABC, Independent MediaTimes Media and other media houses. I can tell you, for example on SABC alone, we spent about R29 million, Times Media we spent R7 million and R14 million on Independent Media. So, you can see in terms of the variety. Yes, there is standard procedure in terms of the department accordingly to all media houses, including The New Age, the same process is followed by the department. Thank you.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Deputy Chair, listening to the Minister’s response that the department has indeed issued some work to companies, to what extent has your department ensured that Black Economic Empowerment and emerging contractors are given some share of what is due to them? What is it that you have done in your department to ensure those emerging contractors do benefit in terms of the contracts that you award to these major contractors? Thank you.


The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Chairperson, just to indicate that when we talk about other media houses we are referring to community media we are spending almost R37 million. So, we are cognisance of spending in community media spending in terms of community radio stations. In terms of media, broadly in the department in spending, we are quarterly monitoring spending on the SMMEs. So, yes we are cognisance about transformational issues and we do monitor in the department quarterly, specifically both the department and the entities. We are cognisance of our duty towards transformation. Thank you very much.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister, when you talk about spending money in community radio stations, would you say to this House that most of the times money is spent only in Gauteng community radio stations? Is your expenditure on community radio stations all over the provinces?

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Chair, that is not entirely true. We utilise Government Communication and Information System, GCIS. I am not so sure if hon members are aware. GCIS has studios which are able to connect to all community radio stations across the country. Just last week, I had done an interview on our White Paper through GCIS which transmits to all community


media that exists in the country. So, we do that through GCIS. We do not only communicate through community media but when we go to communities as well, in various provinces, we utilise those local community radio stations. Thank you.

Question 244:


Chair, can I be up front and indicate that our response is quite substantive, if members are comfortable I am going to leave even this for publishing, because I am cognisant that I might take long when responding to it. We are doing quite a lot of work around Indigenous Knowledge System, beyond just hosting the conference.
Prior to hosting the conference members would have been aware that, firstly we did pass the legislation and wish to thank the members for the support of our legislation in terms of Indigenous Knowledge System.

As part of what we are proposing there is some things that we have already started doing. Recognising people who are practitioners in provinces, who are able to assist us in identifying the indigenous knowledge, register in our support communities who are the holders of indigenous knowledge. That is already in place, it is something


that we have been doing. The conference as the member has asked specifically which I thought I should answer broadly.

The conference was just one of the areas of work that we are doing but the work does not mean that prior to the conference we were not doing anything. The work in the conference and part we did in the conference was because we had communities which are practitioners look at the support that we need to provide them because some of the indigenous knowledge will help them to protect the Intellectual Property,IP, secondly, will help them in the process of finalising the product.

Where there is a challenge for an example, it is them accessing the market, so you find that somebody in a community has a particular herb as we have been able to see some of the facial products that they produce through indigenous knowledge that you can be able to use, it is natural herbs that are found in the communities that they have been able to produce and quite a number of them that we know, most of us have grown in our families where our grannies would give us some of these products to help us.

The problem has been how to assist these communities once we have done our work as Department of Science and Technology, we have


protected the IP, we have helped them to finalise the product through partnership with various universities and make sure that they commercialise. Few of them are able to access the markets where they can be able put their products in pharmaceuticals either in clinics and utilised by communities but we will continue to do our utmost best to advocate for them and also link with Department of Trade and Industry to try and get them to assist us to support this indigenous knowledge holders to be able commercialise their products. Thank you.

Ms N P KONI: Hon Minister, I hear you but there is a tendency by established companies and multinationals to steal Indigenous Knowledge Systems from Africans, patent and make theirs making huge profits. What is your department doing to protect Indigenous Knowledge Systems from being appropriated by the Westerns?

Do not worry about this one, she is a DA do not worry, so this question kills her.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chair, can you rule on hon Koni saying I am this one, can the presiding rules, rule on it. [Interjections]



Koni, you are all members and hon members of this House. Hon Koni agg hon Minister.


Chair, in terms of protecting the indigenous knowledge, we do it through assisting the indigenous communities to register their products through IP. We do that as the department as we do have our unit which is called National Intellectual Property Management Office, NIPMO that helps to protect the indigenous communities. We do have tendencies where somebody decides; either they have been sitting with the product I have heard, those incidents where somebody says to me, Minister I have done this work, I have sat with my product I am not entering the market and somebody says to me they will give me about R10 million and I give it to them. On that we cannot do anything, a if person who is the holder of that decides to give it, then there might not be much of a decision on from our side, not much of what we can do but, as long as we have registered it and it is an IP that sits with the country. That is as far what we can as the department to protect that knowledge.



Mnu L B GAEHLER: Mphathiswa Ohloniphekileyo, mandiyibuze ngesiXhosa le nto. Amayeza nezinto zabantu bakuthi ebesiphila ngazo kudala ezifana nemihlonyane yonke le nto, bezibanceda abantu bakuthi kuba bebephila ngawo kwaye sikwazi ukuwathenga kubo, kodwa ngoku xa usiya kumashishini amakhulu ufumanisa ukuba imihlonyane nayo yonke into ipha.

Yintoni engenziwa ngurhulumente okanye iSebe lakho ukuze noko bakhuselwe abantu bakuthi bakwazi ukuthi nook siyabhaqa kule kungasele kubonakale ukuba aba bantu baphezulu banemali eninzi baginya yonke into? Enkosi.


UNGQONGQOSHE WEZESAYENSI NOBUCHWEPHESHE: Mhlonishwa, into esiyenzayo njengoMnyango Wezesayensi Nopuchwepheshe kakhulu siye sizame ukuthi sibasize abantu bakithi ukuba mabazibhale phansi lezi zinto zabo ukuba i-Intellectual Property, IP, yabo siyivikele, yilento esiyibiza i-IP, lolu lwazi lwabo lokuthi lowomhlanyane noma lowo mkhiqizo abanawo siwubhalise siwuvikele kodwa into esiyenza manje njengoba bengishilo ngithi, kunabantu esibabiza ngodokotela. Labo bantu siphaketha ngaphakathi emiphakathini yethu ukuze bakwazi ukusiza labo bantu ngoba ikakhulukazi unokuthola ukuthi ngabantu abadala abanalo lolo lwazi.


Ngakhoke siyabasiza kakhulu silubhalise ulwazi lwabo kodwa sibafundise nokuthi ulwazi lwabo lubaluleke kangakanani ukuthi bangalidayisi, banganikezi omunye umuntu ahambe nalo. Ngakhoke siyakwenza lokho kuzo zonke izifundazwe sinabo abantu abakwazi ukusiza laba bantu bakithi ukuthi ulwazi lwabo lungahambi.


Ms L L ZWANE:Hon Minister, does the department in ensuring that the indigenous knowledge systems practitioners penetrate the pharmaceutical areas and also does the government order their products or we still believe in the West.


will have to lob in the Minister of Health hon member; I am a believer of the sector. I believe that there is quite a number of things as we grew up in our homes, as I said you would have a headache, you granny would find a plant, mix it and give it to you then your headache is gone.

Many of us grew up like that in our families, that is why I am saying I am a believer of the indigenous knowledge and the herbs because they help to protect our bodies as well as they do not have


side effects and all those things. That is why I am saying we will have to because we are the champions; we are the advocates of the indigenous knowledge holders in our sector and therefore we will continue to advocate for their existence but not only their existence but for commercialisation of their products. I will be looking forward to you supporting me as we engage with The Minister of Health to support these communities.

Question 255:

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, over the last few years the Department of Science and Technology has significantly strengthened strategic partnerships with the private sector aimed at advancing mutually beneficial research, development and innovation. The following is an indication of some of the major partnerships that the Department of Science and Technology currently has with the private sector; Firstly, to enable the next generation in mining in South Africa the Department of Science and Technology together with the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Mineral Resources, mining companies and mining equipment manufacturers have established a large-scale innovation aimed at extending the life of the gold and platinum mines in a way that enables South Africa to maximise economy-wide returns. The innovation partnership has led to the recent launch of the Mandela Mining Precinct in Johannesburg.


The other area that we have been able to do something is that the Department of Science and Technology established a consolidated Sector Innovation Fund programme in 2014. The programme enables the Department of Science and Technology to collaborate with key industry sectors and cofund research innovation programmes that enhances the competitiveness of this key sector of the South African economy. The Sector Innovation Fund programme is supported in post- harvest innovation, forestry, citrus, wine and mine processing among others.

The other area that I can indicate in terms of partnership is in the Biorefinery Industry Development Facility, BIDF, launched at the beginning of this year in Durban. The facility was developed through a private-public partnership between the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, and the private sector players such as SA Pulp and Paper Industries, Sappi, April Asia, National Amalgamated Packaging, Nampak etc. The BIDF in short focuses on organic waste.
It includes waste agricultural biomass as well as chicken feathers for example where they utilise chicken feathers to produce things like shampoo and baby nappies. Thank you very much.

Mr A S SINGH: Chair, thank you Minister, I am happy that you answered.


Mr M KHAWULA: We are happy.


Thank you very much. I haven’t seen any other follow-up ... [Inaudible.] That brings us to the end of questions to Science and Technology and let me thank the Minister for having availed herself to respond to the questions.

Question 235:


you House Chairperson and good afternoon to the members of the House and yes, as I have been briefed by Sentech hon members, as from 22 October 2018 that government department owe about R1,9 million whilst the community broadcasters themselves and other entities owe about R34,1 million, so this is the amount that we are being owed by the community broadcasters, entities and government departments. I have with me a list of the names of the stations that owe Sentech and I would like to circulate it if there is a need because it is a very long list, it’s not like 12 or 20 names, it is a lot of them.
We will then request to circulate it and including the amount per station that is being owed. Thank you.



a note here ... oh no it is hon Faber. The handwriting is quite ... [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, yes, the two letters that I put on your table to indicate that I will be handling the first question of hon Julius. Thank you Chairperson. The SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, is currently the main contributor to the income of Sentech.
Sentech will not survive without regular payments from the SABC Minister. Did the Minister have any interaction with the Communications department about this outstanding debt? If not, how can you justify this inaction? If so, what are the details of the engagements if any?


Chairperson, yes as the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services we have made sure that we raise the matter with the Department of Communications and Sentech, including the stakeholders involved. This we do because we believe it is only when we engage each other and try to understand what the reasons are that they have not managed to the costs that they were supposed to pay and we are proud to inform you that the engagements are looking positive


because the stations are promising, they are just making arrangements with Sentech.

We do understand the challenges that they give Sentech in terms of it fulfilling its mandate but unfortunately, as I am saying, due to the different reasons that led to the organisations not being able to pay, we had to be considerate. One thing that we take into consideration is the fact that our people must have access to communication and information and the community broadcasters are the ones that assist us in terms of reaching out to our people. That is why we said, we will try to assist them, find ways of making sure that they pay that which is due. Thank you House Chair.

Mr E M MLAMBO: Hon Chair, I think the question that I was going to ask has been covered by the Deputy Minister. Thank you.


indicating an interest to speak hon ... [Interjections.] Oh! You may proceed. [Interjections.]

Mr O J SEFAKO: Hon Chair, hon Minister, what progress has been made in terms of payments to Sentech?



progress has been made in terms of payments to Sentech? Alright, in my previous response I did state the fact that we are still engaging with them and therefore as I am saying that we are engaging with them I can’t say how much we have achieved so far. As I mentioned, the fact that all in all we are owed about R37,9 million as from 22 October 2018 and Sentech of course will then inform us of the necessary arrangements that have been made. We would be happy to then circulate the information as soon as we get it. Thank you House Chair.

Question 248:


you, Deputy Chairperson. Yes, progress has been made in terms of payment services as we migrated from the Cash Payment Services to the SA Post Office. The progress that has been made as we receive the report from Sapo is the fact that we are left with only 19% that are still with Green Road and the rest are accessing their grant via the Post Bank and Sapo. I think they are complaining about the mike, Chair.

So, we have tried to make sure that, at least, about 67% is migrated already and indeed all the beneficiaries did their social grants. We


are experiencing challenges as I said 19% is still with Green Road, but the Post Office has assured us that by the end of the coming month they will make sure that everybody is migrated.

Ms E PRINS: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Minister, how the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services in collaboration with The South African Social Security Agency, SASSA, plan to stop the manipulative debit orders that used to be suffered by the social grant recipients during Cash Master Payment Services?


Chair, and hon members, as the department we have received lots of complaints from the beneficiaries, who are mention the fact that there are those people who decide to access debits through their accounts. But one thing that we have made sure as the ANC government is fact that these social grants that we distribute are meant to assist people at home, they are not for people who go for loans.

As a result of that we are raising awareness within the communities and we have made sure that the new card that we are introducing will not allow for any debit orders. We are also engaging with the banks to make sure that they work with us in relation to the matter. Thank you


Mr M CHETTY: Deputy Minister, we have been aware of the CPS employees or people that stand at different pay points to coax grant beneficiaries to still use CPS instead of South African Post Office services. You went the Constitutional Court and in some instances even open cases with SA Police Services. Please provide this House with progress regarding these cases; were there any convictions and what the relevant details are. Thank you.


Deputy Chairperson, unfortunately, we will not be able to provide specifics of the convictions that have been made, we will then request the information so that we circulate it again. But of course, like I did say, there are those that are trying to be mischievous at all times government tries to do good for the people. That is why you find that whilst we busy saying people are migrating to SAPO, others are still continuing with the old system.

As I said earlier, there are about 19% of beneficiaries that have not migrated yet, therefore we have to make sure that we are accommodative and take into consideration that there may be victims of such. As soon as we migrate everybody, then we will be able to say, if you dare again continue using those CPS cards, then we will take action against you.


Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, does SAPO have any shortcomings in terms of infrastructure and trained human capacity to effectively deliver grants on time to beneficiaries, if so, what are the relevant details, if not, why not?


Deputy Chair, hon members, yes we do experience challenges in terms of infrastructure in the respective areas as SAPO, we have been undergoing serious challenges due to lack of finances. What we are trying to do now - because we have to make sure that everybody has access to the Post Office - is more, because we have said that our people must access grants via the Post Office.

We are, again, thanking the government for making sure that they are contributing some fund, like the R2,9 million that have given to SAPO and hope that via this intervention we will able to at least address the challenges that we are facing. That talks to both infrastructure and the personnel. If you talk of the Post Office, you will remember that it is the old regime that has been there.

Those people are those are used in doing things in a particular manner. How do we make sure then that the Post Office that we have,


responds to the 21st century challenges. This therefore talks to risky link and the up skilling of the people of the Post Office. To make sure that, if we are saying, let us all migrate to the digital platform that country is going to. We got to make sure that people are empowered and therefore the technologies that would enable that have to be bought. Thank you

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I do not have any hand, and I must bring this to the attention of the House. In terms of the rules the follow-up question must be relevant, to the principal question. But I had confidence in the Deputy Minister, and hence I have allowed her to respond to these questions. In actual fact I should have ruled them out of order, but because of the spirit of this House, I had confidence in you.

Question 247:


you, House Chair. Yes, as the department we have not formally engaged or we are not formally working on any skills development project with the Department of Basic Education.

We are working on the development of the national skills digital strategy that seeks to identify the gaps that are out there not just


for the digital transformation, but also the Fourth Industrial Revolution that we are talking about in order for us to be able to say as the responsible department, how do we make sure that then, we assist the Department of Basic Education or we work with them in terms of ensuring that the young people of our country, are able to have the skill that we are talking about.

House Chair, you will know that the thing about the Fourth Industrial Revolution is that also in the tag nature is very disruptive and therefore it doesn’t follow the formal processes of the academic rules. It is there as we are saying right now people are able to access their content online, which is outside of what the Department of Basic Education, DBE, is doing. So we are engaging to say, what measures can we put in place, what assistance can we then provide to make sure that our people do not miss out.

As such, via our SA Connect programme, which is the broadband rollout, we are making sure that we are connecting the schools, but then the Department of Basic Education comes on board to provide the content with learners. Thank you, Chair.

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you, hon Chair. Besides education, access to the fast and cheap internet will continue to be a problem and


prevent us to participate in the Fourth Industrial Revolution, that there are companies that have a monopoly on the industry and have used their monopoly to set the price. Deputy Minister, don’t you think that it is time for the monopoly of data to be broken?


Chair and hon member thank you for the question. Just in correction, it is the Deputy Minister, not the Minister.

However, nevertheless, you are correct to say once our people do not have access to data they will not be able to access the information that they have to access, which is why as government we are making an intervention via the rollout of broadband; but more so via our regulator Icasa we are also working in that, looking into the cost of data.

You heard the Minister and the President when they were making an announcement that we will be working in terms of allocating this spectrum, which also will contribute towards limiting the cost of data – you referred to data, well, we call it the cost to communicate, to make sure that our people are then able to compete on a service level instead of infrastructure.


We have established again, an interdepartmental integrated infrastructure programme, whereby we are working with municipalities to say, how do we make sure that all these people that come out to say, I’m here to provide Wi-Fi and they dig, how do we make sure that they put that infrastructure and therefore the next person that comes on board is able to share from that infrastructure without hindering the work that is being done by the municipalities or any other departments.

But most importantly, to say if already there is infrastructure there, let us encourage that they share the infrastructure in order to minimise the cost. We really believe that that will benefit the people of South Africa and therefore they will be able to participate effectively and meaningfully in the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Thank you, House Chair.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Hon Deputy Minister, how does the department create or promote public awareness for the programmes they have to ensure that the youth is able to exhaust those opportunities. Two, how is the response of other stakeholders to the youth development initiatives by the department; and to what extent does this initiative bear the intended outcome? Thank you.



you, Chairperson. If I were to start with the last question that talk to the stakeholders that we are working with. One of the crucial things that we have decided to do as the department was to make sure that we bring the factor together so that we are able to see who does what and where.

Having done that, we then made a conscious decision via the office of the Deputy Minister that we are able to consolidate the Corporate Social Investments, CSI projects that they have, because it is via those platforms that we are able to say, if they are saying they have R3 million, budgeted for the CSI how do we direct it to sustainable programmes? These programmes also are targeting the youth.

The Deputy Minister as we are speaking here is responsible for youth development skills and small business development, and this we do by bringing not just the mobile operators, but everybody in the sector, including those that provide skills, including those that provide assistance to small businesses to make sure that youth development is realised; but crucial to youth development is the issue of the skills that must be put at the centre.


The Deputy Minister again did during the Budget vote, made a commitment and an announcement that we will be training about one million young people between now and 2030 on data science-related skills, which are targeting or making the youth ready for the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

Once more hon Chairperson, we are proud to announce that we will be starting with that programme, January we have 300 data scientist from the unemployed graduates that must be re-skilled on data science related; and then the 700 will be coming from those that are matriculants, that are not at school and at work. Thank you House Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Minister, I would like you to tell this House and the public out there if there is a shortage of funds to effectively roll out the Information and Communication Technologies, ICT in schools? If not, what are the plans to rectify the situation and what is the impact on the rollout of ICT in schools? If so tell us what are the relevant details? I thank you, Deputy Minister.


you, Chairperson. Hon member, the responsibility of my department is


to make sure that we provide connectivity and the affected stakeholders that we work with, provide a technology in relation to their specific areas.

Now when we talk about a technology in the schools, as the department that is not our mandate; but because we have a responsibility to make sure that we build a digital society, and therefore we must work together with the Department of Basic Education in addressing the challenges that we have identified.

Earlier on, I made a comment on the fact that we are rolling out schools connectivity project, which is the combination of Wi-Fi and the laptops ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you listen to the response by the Deputy Minister. You may proceed hon Deputy Minister.


you House Chairperson. Utilising, of course, those that have been given licenses in our sector, we, therefore, looked into USOs or the Universal Service Obligations, to say how we can make sure that we assist, as education is everybody’s responsibility.


Therefore, we are utilising that as I’m talking to you right now, we have managed to connect about 4500 schools; and out of that we realised that the Department of Basic Education – the last time I check they had about 27 000 schools - but the department itself, has made sure that they make provision for the rollout of the ICTs. Ours is to make sure that there is connectivity.

Like I said House Chairperson, via the SA Connect programme, we are connecting the schools in the different areas. Unfortunately, we have not managed to cover everybody as we have pronounced that we will in eight schools, but again with the assistance of the private sector, we are trying to widen that and make sure that we reach out to all the schools in South Africa. Thank you, House Chair.

Question 249:


Chair, as a department we had to make sure that if we were to give a meaningful role to the small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs, in terms of contributing towards the economic growth, we had to make sure that they are empowered. However, first thing was to make sure that we understand who is out there in terms of SMMEs in the ITC sector. We then said we are going to create a database of the SMMEs and on top of that we then engaged with the industry to


identify what opportunities are there, and how we can make sure that we assist our SMMEs.

Most of the big companies have raised issues of concern in terms of the quality of service that has been provided by small businesses. Based on that we then said: Let’s sit down and identify these quality issues and we therefore were able to capacitate the SMMES to make sure that they meet your requirements. We are working with the Department of Small Business via Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, to make sure that we are able to take those small businesses to be incubated so that they can be given enough time to make mistakes. As we know that unlike other sectors in the ICT sector, we cannot put small businesses that need incubation for one year. We need at least minimum three years and that they require support, to be given an opportunity to fail, come up with another prototype, as long as we are certain that they will provide the best service. Therefore those are the interventions that we are making.

We realised the importance of putting SMMEs at the centre in terms of contributing to unemployment because it is via these small businesses that are out there that there is employment. Big companies cannot afford to go to my village, in Sakhela as you proceed to Mvezo, because they feel like they need to be in Durban,


Cape Town, Port Elizabeth or Johannesburg. What we are doing is that we you let us bring your product down there, but most importantly, let us make sure that the people locally are able to provide solutions to the challenges that they are facing. As we are doing that, we are running hackathons throughout the country to say: Showcase your innovation and we will build on your idea.

Lastly, ours was to also make sure that as the department we lead by example. We can’t expect the sector to invest in small business if we are not. Hence, we found that as we are connecting broadband, we are proud to announce here again that in Durban, it is the SMMEs that are rolling broadband. What we did was to make sure that via our entities, at least 30% of the businesses or tenders that are being provided are given to small businesses. Via Seda, we made sure that any business that is below R30 million go to SMMEs, and those above R30 million – whatever big company gets to be awarded a contract, it contracts 30% of the business to a small business.

I am also proud that with all these interventions for SA Post Office, Sapo, we the Sapo Board again, have taken conscious decision that because by nature post office relies on small business interventions, they will increase from 30% to 40% opportunities that


must be given to the people in order to enhance the work that we are doing for the small business development sector. Thank you.

Ms E PRINS: Thank you, Minister, for the response. It was very detailed. I am really very happy to hear about the allocation of up to R30 million for projects that you give to small businesses of young people, to give them the opportunity to develop themselves and sustain their businesses. I am also pleased to hear that you give them a three year period to learn, but I want to ask: Are you waiting for three years before you realise that the project is not working or is there intervention in between? How do you deal with it?


Deputy Chair, hon member, like I said, in our sector it is very different. If one comes up with an idea, it takes lots of time for people to understand that idea. However, building on the idea, what we are saying is that a person must be given an opportunity to fail because they do fail. We do not want to bring to the market a product that will collapse in a year.

The reason that we say we need to extend that time to three years is because we want to make sure that they produce quality. Of course,


if they are ready within a year, we take them to the market. Ours is to make sure that the quality service is provided. On top of that, as I say they fail, at times it is not because they don’t know their business, but they sometimes require mentoring.

As you get into entrepreneurship, as I refer to them as the real economic freedom fighters, these are the people that knock on your doors and get to be told: Go away, we don’t understand what you are talking about. They go home and sleep but they rethink what else they must introduce into their innovation. Therefore, we giving that opportunity to convince everybody that their story is worth to be told and history will be made. Thank you.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Deputy Minister, perhaps my answer will require a written response to some extent because it requires detail. [Interjections.] Some ten years or so back, the department, via your entity had what I think was called User Licences to underserviced areas to SMMEs, in the main, at that time. I have not seen any of those kicking off the ground and in your previous response you make mention that you have mentoring programmes and all those things. Are you able to provide us with the details: What is the state of affairs of those licences that were awarded? One of them was Nkangala District Municipality area in Mpumalanga. Was there was any


funding accrued to those companies? In the main they were aiming to address the issues or challenges of spectrum in those underserviced areas, as you would say, at the same dealing with the issues of transformation. If you would want to respond to it!


Deputy Minister is not necessarily compelled to respond? Your first part of the question says: Probably, you might have to respond in writing.


you Deputy Chair. We will then circulate a detailed response in writing. But, just to allay the fears of the hon member, that we might have some wasted some spectrum when we gave to people that are not utilising. Some of the licensees are utilising their licences; others have sold them, like Sapo, Neotel and others.

Most importantly, what we realised as we are learning throughout the years is the fact that we issued licences because we were in a hurry to make sure that we provide transformation, without giving that technical and financial support that is required for anybody. That means we have to transform. Transformation is not just about awarding somebody a spectrum; I goes with everything – the support


that must be given to that person – so that one is able to compete against big guys with experience, enough competency, and on top of that with relevant resources.

I mentioned the fact that in KwaZulu-Natal, we are rolling our broadband via SMMES. It is one of the licences. Also, in the Eastern Cape, in O R Tambo, in Nyandeni Municipality and Port St Johns, we have subcontracted a company that is called Makhosikati. If it is Makhosikati, I assume it comes from Mpumalanga. I am not sure, but that is the company that is rolling our broadband. Those are one of the beneficiaries of the licences that we awarded.

Further details in relation to the Mpumalanga one that you were specific on, we will then make sure that we provide them in writing. Thank you.

Mr A S SINGH: Hon Deputy Minister, did your department have a plan to ensure that corruption does not have a space in the programme by the department, that it is doing such a good work?


Deputy Minister, did you get the question? [Interjections.] Can you repeat the question again?


Mr A S SINGH: Hon Deputy Minister, how does your department plan to ensure that corruption does not have a space in the programmes that your department has, that it is doing such good work?


you, Deputy Chairperson and hon member. As you know, government has put in place systems that make sure that there is transparency – not just transparency – but in terms of saying that let people follow all the procurement processes that are there via supply chain system.

Indeed, we have seen other people that are trying to undermine that process and we have taken a decision that anybody that has been found to undermine the systems that we put in place will be brought to books. We are doing that because the ANC-led government is committed in rooting out corruption, it doesn’t matter by who or where. Same applies to our department: We are committed in ensuring that we provide clean governance and anybody that is contravening that will be dealt with. Thank you.


very much, hon Deputy Minister. I saw some hands coming up but ... [Inaudible.] ... our special delegates. [Inaudible.] ... would be


the last. Hon Phukuntsi! Can you allow the special delegate? Maiden question of a special delegate.

Ms K R PHUKUNTSI (Free State – Special Delegate): Deputy Minister, does your department have any plans for co-ordinated follow ups for monitoring and evaluation to ensure sustainability for the role players and beneficiaries in economic growth envisaged?


Chairperson and hon members, yes, we have put in place some people that must look into quality assurance first, but most importantly, what we do because we are a department that operate at national level, we have made sure that we establish local steering committees. Those will be our eyes and ears.

In each and every province, we are working via the office of the Premier and of Economic Development. We make sure that in municipalities, mayors themselves are the ones that provide that oversight on our behalf. Of course, our entities again also assist us in those provinces that we do have in this case. Thank you.

Question 236:



Deputy Chair, yes, the question he is asking us is about Mr Salim Essa. Hon members will remember that when former President Zuma made the proclamation to separate the Department of Communications and the Department of Telecommunications, it was in 2014. Now, the member in question that you are talking about with regard of being a board member of BBI, which is an entity that was residing under the Department of Public Enterprises, which therefore tells you that by the time they came to us in September 2014, they were already appointed from the Department of Public Enterprises. We inherited the gentleman that you are talking about. Therefore, we do not have any reason to say we appointed him because of what ever reason the member is seeking. We inherited the member. So, no Gupta family associate that we have put in place in relation to the Broadband Infraco board. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Hon Julius is not in the House. In all the notes that I have been receiving of members who would stand in for members who are not in the House, I don’t have note for hon Julius. But still, if there is any member who wishes to make a follow-up, it’s okay.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chair, I just want to confirm that we did receive the request from hon Julius that his question will be handled by hon Chris Hattingh.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hattingh is also not in the House.

Mr A J NYAMBI: Deputy Chair, it’s just to indicate that even before you receive the communicare from the Chief Whip, the question was already responded to accordingly. We can move to the next question.

Question 250:


Deputy Chair, I have been informed by the SA Postal Office as follows: That during August 2018, the mail backlog was 46 million of unprocessed items, mainly in the Gauteng province at the Witspos and Tshwane International Mail Centre. By 19 October 2018, the backlog had been reduced to 15,7 million items as the result of numerous interventions.

We have been issued with a state guarantee of R2,9 billion, like I reported earlier. Engagements thereof with the lenders to secure funding are in the final stages. Once the funding is secured, the


creditor’s backlogs will be repaid and then sort restoration of critical services and supply of sorting trace, mail bags, motor vehicles and motorbikes. The mail backlogs will then be reduced over a short period of time.

Hon Deputy Chair, I just want to inform the members that one of the reasons that we had these backlogs was because of a capacity that we had or the capacity challenges rather that we have as SA Post Office, Sapo, that we couldn’t pay our service providers, but most so, we also undergone a process whereby there were a lots of protest or strikes by our employees. All those have been resolved by now.
That’s why we are committing to the House that we will address all those backlogs within a short time. I hope that is in order. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Mr A S SINGH: Deputy Minister, this has been a long time backlog. Can you give us approximate month that this backlog will be resolved? Will it go beyond this year Christmas or before?


Deputy Chairperson, I wish I was able to provide the actual date, but as I am saying because the money now is available, we are hoping that at least people will be then be attended to within a short


space of time. Probably, as the Deputy Minister of a department, we can then say we will make sure that people get their monies within
60 days. That’s the one thing that we can commit. Therefore, we will try to drive Sapo in ensuring that they adhere to that time line. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Mr E MAKUE: Deputy Minister, I think to start of my question just with a remark about the new chief executive officer at Sapo. It needs to be commended for the sterling work that it’s doing, but we have earlier looked at science and technology. My question is on e- commerce. To what extent would Sapo be positioning itself or to what extent will it be ready to deal with delivery of those items that have procured by other internet?


Deputy Chairperson, I feel for you, you know this thing of having lots of young people in the House, I was once young and I can see that. Deputy Chair, please call the young members to order to respect the elders.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She knows very well that she is out of order.



members, I mentioned earlier of the interventions that we are trying to bring in ensuring that we digitise the post office and parts of those is ensuring that we drive e-commerce platform via Isa, which is our other entity that is responsible for development of applications, we are working on a platform that will enable Sapo to make sure that they can participate effectively in the e-commerce platform but then we experience challenges with regard to the difference systems that they were using. Now, the team is trying to attend to that.

The second thing was the fact that we said, if we are to provide an effective service, just like other companies are doing, if we are looking at Alibaba and everybody else in Amazon, some of them are utilising the use of drowns to make sure that they deliver services on time. We are proud to say we working with the young people of our country, who are manufacturing these drowns to make sure that at least they have some capacity to assist Sapo, of course, taking into consideration the financial challenges that we have. So, these things will be done gradually as we also have to make sure that the personnel within Sapo itself appreciate the innovations that are taking place in our work. Thank you, Deputy Chair.


Mr E M MLAMBO: Wow to the Deputy Minister. No, no, it’s another elevation, Deputy Minister. A follow-up question, Deputy Minister, are there any communications strategy in place to alert and apologise to the clients affected by the service delivery challenges from the SA Post Office? Thank you.


Deputy Chairperson, yes, we make sure that we do communicate with the affected parties. Now, we are addressing the general public because you will know that some of the people are not just organised bodies that are utilising the post office. We are doing that via the community radio stations as the Minister of Science and Technology was mentioned the fact that we have GCIS that it is able to connect us.

One of the things that we decided to do with regard to us ensuring that we provide comprehensive communication was to say lets go for a platform that is integrated communication which will link not just a radio station but to a paper, including social media so that we can be able to access everyone in the different means of communication. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.


Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Deputy Minister, some of the mail has been packed in this post office for a long time after the due delivery date may make legal notices with legal implications. Do we have such and are there legal litigation on the basis of such delay of delivery?


is the tough one. You see, that’s how we work as young adult and young people. Hon member, will you be offended when we request you as an elder that we can then make sure that we provide you with detailed information that will be circulated via your email or post box? Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Question 237:

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson and hon members, good afternoon. Yes. My answer is yes. If I were the President, I would make this very competent Deputy Minister a Minister overnight – if I had the power ... [Applause.] If I had the power!

In answer to the first question, and it is related to the so-called unabridged birth certificates, my colleague the Minister of Home Affairs would obviously be in the best position to provide the details with regard to matters of immigration regulations. However, I have discussed the proposals with Minister Gigaba, and, in the


main, what is now proposed for foreign children travelling to South Africa is based on a benchmark exercise on best practice based on the approaches of the USA, Canada, and the United Kingdom.

The Immigration Advisory Board will meet on 2 November 2018 to process the proposed amendments. We believe that the approach adopted has struck the necessary balance between the economic development and growth and the security interests of our country. The regulations, as gazetted in 2014, will only be scrapped once new regulations are gazetted. Although this is not the domain of the Department of Tourism, I am confident that the revised regulations will be gazetted shortly after the Immigration Advisory Board meeting next week. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you might have noted that the Minister responded to Question 237 asked by the hon Faber. The one that he was supposed to have responded to was the one related to drought. Let’s deal with it now that the Minister has responded, and then we will jump it.

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Sorry, I have a different order here.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Faber, please proceed.


Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chair, it is just the people moving in front of me, but I can focus on my question now. Thank you, Minister, for the answer to that question. However, as you know, previously between yourself and Minister Gigaba there had been no real communication, as these birth certificates have been a problem for a very long time.

To get tourism back on track, I want to know whether you really contacted Minister Gigaba to find out why he did not immediately scrap these ridiculous regulations, as per the President’s request. You say there will be regulations, but the President actually said it must be done as quickly as possible. This was already a month and a half ago. Is Minister Gigaba simply ignoring this direct instruction by the President, or is he just too busy on his phone?

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Deputy Chair, I think it is important that we understand the processes to be followed. It is true that the reforms to the visa system, and the President didn’t go into the details of what the reform should be, would constitute part of the package of stimulus measures to stimulate the economy and that visa reforms are critically important.


However, with respect to this particular measure affecting the travel of foreign children, it has to go through this process. There is no choice. So, Minister Gigaba made an announcement shortly after the President’s announcement. Amongst other things – and there were many other things he announced – he said that we will be bringing the requirements for foreign children to visit South Africa in line with other countries like the USA, Canada, and the UK. In order to effect that, it is not simply scrapping. What exists in the form of regulations, subsidiary legislation, has to be replaced, has to be amended. That is why we need a revised regulation, if you like, which needs to be gazetted. The Act approved by this Parliament requires the Immigration Advisory Board to advise the Minister on the necessary changes. We have agreed – we are not in any doubt – and we’ve been in close contact with the Minister. I have had three bilateral meetings with Minister Gigaba and his department. We have agreed on what the new regulations should provide for. I will tell you if you have the time, but, in essence, the new regulations will make it much easier for family travel to South Africa, and it will be very much in line with good practice in those other countries I mentioned.

In other words, if both parents are travelling with their children, no documentation will be required. If you are a single parent


travelling with a child, you may be asked to prove the relationship, and those are our measures to combat possible child trafficking but only in the event that there might be grounds for suspicion. You may be asked to provide a letter of consent from the other parent, but it won’t have to be in the form of an affidavit or a notarised document, which takes time and money, so that requirement is no longer there. In the event of you being a child travelling with somebody that isn’t your parent, you might be required to provide proof of consent of the parents or the guardians of that child, so it is a package of measures that will be very similar to what the UK does, actually.

It is finding the balance between reasonable measures to try and combat child trafficking but without it impeding tourism growth and without it becoming unnecessarily onerous for people who want to travel to South Africa with their children or, for that matter, with their relatives. For children travelling on their own, certain documentation will be required. That is also in keeping with those other countries.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before we get to the next question, can I just bring it to the attention ... [Inaudible.] ...


in our Rules, chapter 5, section 31(a) states that no member may “pass between the Chair and a member addressing the Chair”.

So, there was nothing wrong in the hon Faber raising an objection to the fact that the hon Mokwele walked past him. [Interjections.] No, it is wrong. It is there in the Rules. Let us not do that. Can we proceed then to the next question, which should have been the first question? Do you want to ask a follow-up question?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: You cannot finish a day without mentioning my name.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a very interesting point

... [Inaudible.] ... that comes as a question. We can pass the day without mentioning your name. Nevertheless, the fact is that the note I received on your behalf indicated you are not well. I wish you well. Hon Koni?

Ms N P KONI: Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Minister: The planned N2 Wild Coast road will cut through a beautiful part of our country that attracts many tourists. Already, there have been violations of the environmental requirements the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, agreed to, and this will have negative


consequences for tourism in the area. Has your department at any point engaged the Sanral so that they consider the route of the N2 Wild Coast road? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Deputy Chair, that question is not quite related to the matter affecting the travel of minors of other countries. Nonetheless, you probably realise that I am the Minister of Tourism and also the Acting Minister of Environmental Affairs.

The N2 road development clearly has to go through the normal processes of getting environmental approvals, environmental impact assessments, etc. So, I suggest that the Minister of Tourism, as a matter of urgency, speak to the Acting Minister of Environmental Affairs so that we can have a common position on this. That is said on a lighter note.

You are right. The N2 is critically important for tourism in the Eastern Cape, not only the N2 but the secondary access roads as well. However, it is going to be difficult for me, now, because I occupy this position and because any appeals regarding any development have to be dealt with by the Minister of Environmental Affairs. So, I won’t be able to comment on the matters raised by environmental groups because ultimately I have to be the arbiter and


will have to deal with the appeals in the event that they come to me. There is no question denying the importance of the N2 and its value to tourism.

Question 234:

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, this question is the one related to conducting mini Tourism Indabas in rural areas such as Amathole and OR Tambo Districts Municipalities. The answer is, no. Africa’s Travel Indaba is a national and African event aimed at the international tourism trade. It exhibits an array of activities and tourism products that combine to provide an exhibition of international standard and appeal.

The objectives of this exhibition is to profile the entire tourism industry, to facilitate a commercial platform for international buyers, to meet representatives of tourism products and offerings from all geographic areas of our country, as well as those from other African countries. A mini Tourism Indaba, would have to take on a very different format, and may not be viable if it should focus only on one region.

Provincial tourism authorities or the private sector, could showcase tourism products in a format of a small trade or a consumer show,


rather than the international continent wide indaba format and it is also a well-known brand, the African indaba. So, I would like to say that private sector associations in some other regions do hold such mini indaba exhibitions, but that would be a local initiative.

We are a bit concerned not to be confusing the branding. Indaba has now become an international well-known tourism trade show.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Minister, let’s not play with words here, whether it’s not indaba and whatever it can be, let us agree that the Wild Coast is one of the areas which is not fully explored, as you also know. It has many places of interest; it is potential for tourism; it can also boost our economy and it can also boost our SMMEs. I agree that the problem with this area is lack of roads or difficulty in accessing them, but SA revenue can be boosted through the Wild Coast.

There are very beautiful places in the Wild Coast. Hon Koni made mention of Newbridge, but there’s also African Vulture that the tourists can visit; the Hole in the Wall and lots of different tourism attraction areas. What is it that can be done by the department so that these areas can be explored by the world at


large? That is what we need to know, whether you make use of indaba, get-together or imbizo, whichever means. Thank you

The MINISTER OF TOURISM:     Through you, Chairperson, I think I know exactly where you’re coming from, and I agree with you 100% that the Wild Coast is probably part of our country with the most unexploited potential. It’s an exquisite piece of coastline with incredible offerings, and it’s sort of rich in cultural diversity and its scenic landscape is something quite extraordinary.

Having said that, and starting off by saying that it’s not fully exploited, it’s true that access roads are very important. But there are things that we can do immediately and some things that we are now doing. So, one thing that we are doing as the department, is to develop a master plan for that area, that would bring all stakeholders, local authorities and provincial governments to identify the roles and responsibilities of each sphere of government, to start developing the Wild Coast more fully and properly so that tourism can benefit and that jobs are created.

The hon member might know that I went to Port St Johns recently to meet with stakeholders. It’s difficult to do so, even if one has a good plan. The first requirement is that the local authorities must


perform its basic functions properly. It’s difficult to attract tourists to a place if the town is not well-managed, and the town I’m afraid to say that the town is a little bit tired. There’s litter and unfortunate developments in the town that probably did not get planning approval.

So, where I would agree on with the hon member may not be about the indaba. We have agreed in that meeting that we would have lekgotla in Port St Johns that would bring stakeholders together to get ideas and commitments from people, including the local municipality that would be in support of that. As we speak, our department is in discussion preparing for such a lekgotla. Thank you.

Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I thought that hon Gaehler meant to say the question in a bigger way than what it was intended. Hon Minister, my question would therefore be the following: Having received an annual report of the Department of Tourism this morning in the select committee, are you then able to speak to the Amathole and other municipalities about the service offerings that the Department of Tourism and SA Tourism has for them, to ensure that the tourism product is fully beneficial to the people in an inclusive manner?
Thank you, Chair.


The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Yes, indeed, that is the bigger question. Earlier on, the question was specifically on developments around the Port St Johns area, rather, the Wild Coast area. You are absolutely right, engagement with municipalities is essential. In the first instance, municipalities and provincial governments have to fully appreciate the value of tourism.

So, I think that it’s a first ingredient to say that tourism offers huge opportunities for us to create jobs, opportunities, to start identifying what they need to do at their level, in order to promote and support tourism and how can they tap into provincial government programmes, and more importantly, national government programmes. I say more importantly because there are more national government programmes, it’s not that they are not there.

The provincial support lies in those areas that national departments don’t do, for example, the provincial access roads. You would note that it will be very difficult to harness the full potential back to the Wild Coast and other areas as well. Let me talk about the Kruger National Park which is very important for our economy and tourism, but some of the access roads to the Kruger National Park are in a very poor condition, as we speak. Those are some of the provincial roles.


So, getting all the stakeholders together is also very important. For you who are having this kind of responsibility in the municipalities, I think that tourism has to be built into the Integrated Resource Plans, IRPs, and I think that it has to sort of sink in with the local municipalities. Local municipalities don’t have to wait for any other sphere of government to do marketing for them.

Some local municipalities have outstanding websites, and are really marketing their products through their own websites. Some local municipalities have visitor information centres and some have nothing. Back to where I was about Port St Johns or any other municipality, there is no use marketing great tourism products, museums, art galleries and monuments if the town is not well-looked after.

I think that a responsibility like this cuts across the board and that we must keep our country clean. We must keep our country safe and we must always keep our country clean. Safety of tourists is paramount and tourists do not like to go to a place that is dirty and littered. So, I think that it is about recognition of the importance of tourism and then identifying all the things that need to be done in order to attract the tourists. Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Through you Chairperson, hon Minister, seeing that this internationally established brand, the Tourism Indaba, is associated with Durban, eThekwini, has now become an international brand and it’s very difficult to divorce one from the other. You also would not want to be in a situation where there is anxiety, uncertainty, and also, you want your planning to be long-term smooth.

Would it be ideal to just take a bold decision to say that indaba is going to be hosted in Durban forever, so that you do away with this bidding thing that is causing tension, as a result, every three years is another bidding process? You know that you would get even an improved kind of hosting by eThekwini because the matter has now been settled. I agree with you that it’s an international established brand associated with Durban. Just take your bold decision: Durban forever, indaba is yours! Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, we all love Durban. I can’t remember the details, but there is a decision and agreement with the City of eThekwini Municipality, wherein the indaba will be hosted for the next few years. So, there is already a contract with the City of Durban, for a decision not to be taken year after year.


On making it a permanent venue for the Tourism Indaba, I would approach it a bit more carefully than that. The Durban Municipality and with the support of the provincial government, which has been great by the way, has to meet the standard all the time and it has to stay on its toes because if it doesn’t, maybe we can consider alternative venues like Cape Town, Beaufort West or something like that.

The point is that, the length and time of the contract is sufficient that the indaba is going to be hosted there for the next few years, I can’t quite remember for how many years. But permanent arrangement keeps the city on its toes. It must help us put on a really good act; it is a good act. But there are little things that the city has to do apart from bringing its own resources in during the time of indaba, when literally thousands of people like tourists, tour operators, buyers, etc, are sent to Durban for the indaba.

The surrounding areas have to be clean and the city should be well- managed. If the city for whatever reason should deteriorate, then it would be no longer be a good host city. I am not assuming that it would deteriorate; I have great confidence that it will be well- managed, but it has to meet that standard all the time.


Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I just want to have clarity. Was that question 234 or 243 because, hon Gaehler’s question is 234. Is that the one that was just asked or answered? I just want to make sure; I don’t want to ask ... [Interjections.] Chairperson, if it is not answered ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Farber, we are dealing with question 234 that was asked by hon Gaehler. That is why I gave him an opportunity as the first person to make a follow-up question.

Ms N P KONI: Are we still having enough time as this is a very progressive question? Chairperson, hon Tau, let me first thank you for granting me the opportunity. Hon Minister, I know that since the Tourism Indaba was started, if my memory serves me well, events have been happening in Durban. So, I want to check with you if is it not possible, going forward, for the events to be rotated in provinces and, ... [Interjections.] Can I be protected, Chairperson, because when I’m disturbed by a white person I become very emotional?


Ms N P KONI: Thank you so much for protecting me against Farber, especially. He’s is from the Northern Cape just like me.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Continue hon member!

Ms N P KONI: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister, that will be all. I’m emotional already.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I don’t know if you are going to engage with someone who is emotional?

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: No, but I love her like you do. [Laughter.] Emotion and passion is good. So, I don’t have any problem with that. But getting to the essence of the question, it has come up at Minmec meeting, for example. Not too many places in the country have venues big enough to host this very big event. That’s the first thing. So, rotating it to all of the provinces will simply not be possible.

Secondly, having looked at it carefully, the big international trade shows like the World Travel Market, WTM, in London and the ITB in Berlin, are hosted in London all the time. They have become associated with London and ITB is in Berlin all the time. The show doesn’t rotate amongst German cities, and that city becomes known for that event. That is a positive.


But, the exactly mine over here, again I want to reconfirm that we are not going to make it a permanent contract because you have to keep it on your toes and provide the kind of support that such a trade show deserves. Thank you.

Question 243:

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, this is the broader visa question and it relates to the impact of the visa regulations that were announced by ... and I’m assuming that this is what it relates to because the question is, what was the impact of the relaxation of the regulations in 2016. So 2016 ... I’m assuming it relates to the relaxation of certain visa requirements and the imposition of other visa requirements.

We have seen the impact — because that’s what the question is about

— of the relaxing versus the tightening of visa regulations.

Removing the visa requirements for Russia and Angola in 2016 — there was a visa waiver for Russia and Angola — increased travel to South Africa almost immediately. In 2017, Russian travellers to South Africa increased by 52% and Angolan visitors to South Africa increased by 13%, but they’ve continued increasing.


On the other side of the coin, introducing a visa requirement for New Zealand resulted in decreased travel from New Zealand in 2017 by 24%, an almost instant drop. In 2016, the visa requirement is introduced ... a 24% drop in 2017.

Again on the flipside, the 2018 figures show a further 70% increase year on year for the first eight months of this year from Russia and a further 36% increase from Angola. So that’s the kind of impact that visas make on tourism flows.

Tourism spend in South Africa generated by Russian tourists increased by 38% from R137 million to R191 million. Revenue generated from New Zealand dropped by 21% from R414 million to R329 million.

With regard to the second part of the question; yes indeed, we are confident that the latest relaxation of visa regulations and visa reforms as announced by Minister Gigaba on 25 September will have a positive impact on the tourism market, and therefore constitutes an important part of the package of measures to stimulate the economy. [Interjections.] My dear friend over there is very emotional. She will only be treated very nicely if she’s well behaved of course.
Thank you.


Mr M KHAWULA: Thanks, hon Minister. I’m glad you have explained this so perfectly because you know, the same question was asked to your counterpart at Home Affairs. The response that we received in this House was that tightening the visa regulations did not have any negative impact to tourism ... [Interjections.] ... and today ... [Laughter.] ... the Minister of Tourism is giving us a different story. So, for me that clarity is enough. I’m happy.

However, I would just request one thing. Government departments must speak to each other and to one another on these issues because you know, contradictions of this nature are not really necessary.
Government should speak with one voice, especially on issues as important as this one which impacts on the gross domestic product of the country. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Minister, I don’t know if you want to respond as I take it as a comment. It was just a positive comment.

Mr W F FABER: Thanks Chairperson. Minister, I would just like to know. You made a media statement on 26 September and you must explain this to me please. You said from the end of October 2018 South Africa will issue a travel advisory ... and this is on the


visa regulation and for minors not travelling with both parents. The amendments to the regulations will be gazetted by the Minister of Home Affairs for the information in October 2018. This initial travel advisory statement was made by Minister Gigaba in his media briefing in Pretoria on 25 September.

So, I just need to understand. You told me in the previous question that this takes a lot of time but here in your statement you said the end of October 2018. Can you please explain this to us so that we can get clarity?

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Yes, I have to say it because we try to speak with one voice. The Minister of Home Affairs will have to explain himself but I mentioned that the Immigration Advisory Board will be meeting on Monday. I can’t tell you what the delays have been but my press statement was merely echoing what the Minister of Home Affairs had said when he made his announcement of this package of measures, if you like.

He said ... and that was the decision of Cabinet that in the month of October there will be a travel advisory note ensuring that people under this category of travelling minors will be allowed to come to


South Africa without the hard requirement that is currently the case.

However, in order to achieve that, I’m afraid the regulations as revised have to be gazetted. So, I can say, because my department sits on that advisory board, that it is meeting on Monday and as soon as it has met my understanding is that the Gazette will be released and then it’s in the hands of the Minister of Home Affairs. We have a Cabinet decision and we expect any Minister to implement their part of Cabinet decisions. So, I have no doubt that the commitments made by the Department of Home Affairs ... I have not really gone into ... The commitments went way beyond this matter affecting children travel.

The Minister announced a set of countries that will enjoy visa waivers following negotiations with those countries. It included two Eastern European countries, almost all the Middle Eastern countries and almost all the North African countries.

So, that is good news for tourism. However, the industry has brought to my attention that some of the countries that they would like to see prioritised are not included on that list. The President made it very clear when we discussed this issue of visa waivers that this


has to be regarded as the first round. So, the Department of Home Affairs will be in negotiations with those listed countries.
However, this is not the end of the story.

Of course, the other very important part of his announcement was the migration towards e-visas. Part of his announcement was that in the course of this financial year the e-visa system will be piloted with New Zealand, the very country that was the unfortunate ... In a way we were the victims, not them. But it was the country on which we imposed visas.

The Department of Home Affairs is working very closely with the New Zealand government and they will assist us in putting this pilot together so that we don’t repeat some of the mistakes that they themselves made when they introduced e-visas in their country. So the intention is to learn the lessons and then to roll out an e-visa system in the next financial year 2019-20. So, even in the next calendar year you will start seeing the beginnings of a roll-out of e-visas.

We are dealing with these things one step at a time but we are dealing with them with a sense of urgency because there is


recognition that visa constraints and onerous visa requirements do constrain tourism numbers.

What he also announced was a visa relaxation for Chinese travellers to South Africa. So, Chinese travellers to South Africa will be able to get their visas via courier, which will make it a lot easier for them to get their visas. However, there will also be five-year multiple entry visas issued to Chinese travellers. That will make a very big difference.

So, these are critical steps in the right direction. A lot more needs to be done but moving in the right direction. Similar arrangements will be made with India and that was announced as well.

By the way, China has 130 million travellers who travel abroad from China. It is by far the biggest source market now for tourism in the world; much bigger than the USA, and we are only getting
100 000 Chinese visitors to South Africa. Australia gets 1,3 million visitors from China to Australia. So, we can do a lot better but in order to do a lot better we have to make it a lot easier for Chinese travellers to come to South Africa. Thank you.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you very much. I’ve got just one question for the Minister. Does he not regret firing commander in chief, CIC, Julius Malema from the ANC?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s an irrelevant question. Highly irrelevant! [Interjections.]

Hon member, if you are going to speak ... not on that matter. Okay.

Ms N P KONI: No, listen to Koni. Firstly, you know, sometimes when you address hon Koni you must consider the fact that you and Koni are from the Northern Cape. Secondly ... [Interjections.] ... you
... Let me leave that.

My point of privilege is that silence means consent. So, the hon Minister did not respond to hon Mokwele’s question, which means that he regrets. Thank you so much.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I made a ruling on that. [Interjections.] No, no, no, I made a ruling ... of irrelevance ... that the Minister doesn’t have to ... [Interjections.] No, I made a ruling. That is the ruling of the House and it stands. [Interjections.]


Ms N P KONI: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can we then proceed to the next question which is Question ... Yes, hon House Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Can I read this order to member Koni? Rule 35 — Precedence of presiding officer. Whenever the officer presiding rules ... [Interjections.] ... in the Council a member addressing or seeking to ... [Interjections.]

It’s a point of order. It’s a point of order. It is a point of order! [Interjections.] Can I be protected? [Interjections.] A member addressing or seeking to address the Chair must sit down and allow the officer presiding to be heard without interruption.

The hon member interrupted you when you made the ruling. That is the reason for the point of order. [Interjections.] Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. [Interjections.] Order hon member! I sustain that order. I sustain that order. It has nothing to do with my ruling. My ruling was that the Minister should not respond because of irrelevance. The House Chairperson then stood ... [Interjections.] ... on a different


matter ... that whilst I was addressing it ... Just like you are doing now! I’m addressing you and you are interjecting! So, I will sustain that order. May we proceed to the next question ... [Interjections.] ... which is Question 253? Hon Minister?

Ms N P KONI: Chair of the House, hon Tau, can I please address you on a point of privilege?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, address me. [Interjections.]

Ms N P KONI: Who is speaking now? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you address me? [Interjections.]

Ms N P KONI: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Through you ... [Interjections.] ... the hon Dikgale must not involve herself in Northern Cape matters please.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t see any privilege in that ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... because that point has got nothing to do ... [Interjections.] You see now? You see now, hon


members? Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! I wished you a very speedy recovery but ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... you seem to have recovered very fast. So, can you keep ... [Interjections.] Hold it! [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Koni! Hon Koni! Hon Koni, you wanted to address me earlier and I allowed you to address me. So, if I then address you to say hon member, stop doing what you are doing ... [Interjections.] Can we allow the Minister to continuo because I think I’ve made a ruling? [Interjections.] Firstly, on what point are you rising?

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, I’m worried because the issue was started by Hattingh himself and ... provoked ... [Interjections.]
... the members of the EFF. This chaos was started by Hattingh himself and he must stop doing that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members! Hon Mthethwa! [Interjections.] Hon Mthethwa, I have made a ruling on this matter. I don’t know what it is that we are debating because there is a ruling on the matter. Can I allow the Minister to respond to the question? [Interjections.] Hon Hattingh?


Mr C HATTINGH: On two occasions you heard the way that that hon member addressed me and you allowed it. Is it okay that he addresses me by my surname? [Interjections.] You didn’t say anything about it.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hattingh! [Interjections.] Hon Hattingh, I ruled the member out of order on the basis that I had made a ruling on the matter. [Interjections.] Can we allow the Minister ... Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Thank you, Chairperson. I have to conclude that the hon members in this House all love each other so dearly because it’s this kind of behaviour that you only get in an intimate family arrangement if you like, where you batter each other but you smile. And I know you love each other as I know you love me because I can just see it. [Interjections.]

Question 253:

The MINISTER OF TOURISM (Mr D Hanekom): Deputy Chairperson, I have to conclude that the hon members in this House all love each other so dearly, because is this kind of behaviour that you only get in an intimate family arrangement, if you like where you beat each other but you smile and I know you love each other as I know you love me because I can just see it.


As I have said, the tourism growth and both domestic tourism and international tourism arrivals is critically important to our economy. It translates into lots of jobs and lots of opportunities. Having said that and repeating myself, what I haven’t sufficiently emphasised is the nature of that growth. It has to be inclusive growth.

Transformation has to be a fundamentally important part of our tourism sector and is one of our key pillars of National Tourism Sector Strategy. So, the question puts more emphasis on black female share holding and directorship, so I will start there.

The department is implementing the following interventions to thrive transformation in the sector, but let me start of with those interventions specifically intended to benefit woman and black woman in particular.

Firstly, we have the skills development workshops in partnership with various commercial banks. The purpose of these workshops is to provide women in the tourism and hospitality sector with an opportunity to meet with industry experts, individuals from development finance institutions, municipalities and various state organs responsible for tourism services and for tourism business


growth and development. So, it’s really bringing people together and facilitating that kind of network and contact.

Secondly, it is the Executive Development Support Programme for Women in Tourism. The department has established this executive development programme in collaboration with University of South Africa, Unisa, wherein it is currently putting through forty women through an executive programme to ensure that they are ready for higher positions in their companies, if not moving towards having their own companies.

Thirdly, there is a Women in Tourism Programme. This programme commenced in 2013 as a platform to drive initiative sets to support and sort of initiatives that supports the development and empowerment of women in the tourism sector.

Now, on a broader level there are ranges of initiatives design thrive transformation in the tourism industry. A total of 400 enterprises is the annual target for small, medium and Mmcro-sized enterprises, SMMES that will be reached through the Tourism Enterprise Development and Support Programme in 2018-19 financial year.


In quarter two, July to September 2018, 277 SMMEs had benefited from the programme through the following interventions: firstly, a national rollout of the Small Enterprise Development Agency Business Management Training Programme, which was offered to fifty SMMEs in Limpopo and Mpumalanga provinces.

Secondly, the tourism incubator programme has been identified as one of the elements of the enterprise development and support programme and the first incubator was established in Pilanesberg in the North West Province and the second tourism incubator has been established in Manyeleti in Mpumalanga. The two additional incubation programmes were established in March 2018 in Phalaborwa Local Municipality in Limpopo and Mier in the Northern Cape Province.

A further measure to deepen transformation in the tourism sector was the introduction of the Tourism Incentive Programme, TIP, which was launched in March 2015. The TIP has reported as a tool to stimulate growth, development and transformation in the sector. It consists of the following elements:

Firstly, the Market Access Support Programme which assists small tourism enterprises in accessing and penetrating new markets and


this are number of international trade shows that will be of benefits to smaller enterprises if you like.

Secondly, is the Domestic Market Access Support Programme which supports new and emerging small tourism enterprises to participate at domestic trade platforms, which were introduced for the first time at the 2016 Tourism Indaba and the 2017 Meetings Africa platforms. Those of you who went to indaba in 2017-18, you will know that indaba becomes much more lively, much more let’s representative, 135 so called Hidden Gems were represented at the tourism indaba.

Thirdly, it is the very important component called Tourism Transformation Fund. The department partnered with a National Empowerment Fund to create a dedicated capital investment funding mechanism for investment projects by black investors. The amount of R120 million towards the transformation fund over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF period is to be applied as grant funding component.

This grant funding is very important to know what facilities are available to emerging businesses, so that when you do your constituency work you can also share it with them. The grant funding


is kept at R5 million per qualifying applicant, while the balance of support will comprise loans and equity contributions from the National Empowerment Fund.

Fourthly, is the Tourism Grading Support Programme and this was to introduce wider participation of business owners in the grading system and to provide the necessary incentive to get greater conformity to quality standards and to reduce the cost burden of grading on smaller enterprises, as well as to enhance the overall visitor’s experience and to improve destination competitiveness.

Fifthly, is the Green Tourism Incentives Programme and this programme encourages private sector tourism enterprises to move towards cleaner and renewable energy sources, but laws reduce input costs and facilitate increased competitiveness and operational sustainability of the tourism sector.

In addition, we have a number of training programmes and I can’t list them all here, but they are targeting many unemployed young people and women. This includes the National Youth Chefs Training Programme, the Hospitality Youth Programme, the Somalia Training Programme and the Food Safety Programme. Thank you.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we are aware that hon Mateme is not in the House. I have not received anything.
Therefore, I will request the Minister to rather make the response available out, not only to her ... [Inaudible.] and will deal with the last question by hon Faber.

Question 238:

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Hon Deputy Chairperson, this is a shorter reply, but it is related to the National Public Transport Regulator. Therefore, the reply is the backlog regarding delays in issuing of operating licenses has been addressed with the National Public Transport Regulator at the Department of Transport. On 22 March 2018, the directors-general of the Department of Tourism and Transport met to discuss and resolve transport issues affecting the industry. The meeting sought to ensure that transport plays enabling role for tourism growth including its contribution ... [Interjections.] I’m going to stop saying how much I love you if you continue like this, you know ... [Interjections.]

Okay, Chairperson, I still love her, but I understand that ... [Laughter.] She’s always like this. Oh, I see, okay. This meeting between the directors-general of Transport and Tourism sought to ensure that transport plays enabling role for tourism growth


including its contribution towards job creation and economic development. A technical task team was formed and has met frequently to continuously resolve all transport and tourism related challenges including challenges around operating licenses. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is just a bit disturbing with the EFF members in front. I can’t hear myself thinking.


Koni, just for the future, you have to address me not to address another member direct. I don’t want even to quote the ... [Interjections.] Alright, thank you very much. Hon Faber!

Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Minister, since a license is valid only for two years, and you know that there is only about 20 applications that are being process per month, which will give you 480 licenses during a year costing the country at one time. Although new require thousands in this industry, we should be growing jobs and which is a bit unacceptable to be quite honest. But, when the Department of Education at the similar type of problem with scholar transport, it was taken over in some provinces by the Department of Education instead of the Department of


Transport. My question will thus be, would you not think and would maybe willing to take this function of registration and licensing of tourism vehicles under your own department and the away from the Minister of Transport so that our tourism industry doesn’t have this huge problem. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: You want me to take over the licensing with expropriation or without expropriation. [Laughter.] With compensation or without compensation? I think that your point is well taken, but it is the legislation and there is a responsible Minister for that legislation. Therefore, as it currently stands it is the responsibility of that Minister. Having said that, you know, in our meetings with the industry leaders this matter has come appropriately, and at our last meeting with what we call the Tourism Leadership Forum, the Deputy Minister undertook to me with her counterpart in the Department of Transport. I will follow it up. I think what is now also overdue perhaps is for me to have one on one meeting with Minister Nzimande and to have a really frank discussion about some of the challenges that we are experiencing. I know that I reported that directors-general met, but I think I believe that needs to be elevated and because there are numbers of challenges.
I’m aware of them and I will make these undertakings and next time when I come here you can say that but on this day you said that you


would meet the Minister of Transport. I will meet with the Minister of Transport because I am aware of some of the challenges that tour operators phasing or rather transport providers in the tourism sector. Thank you.


you very much. Hon members, I’ve not received any indication of supplementary ... oh, oh, sorry, hon Essack. I’m really sorry. I did not note you.

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chairperson, you acknowledged me, but between you and hon Nyambi from yesterday I’m struggling. He ignored me four times yesterday, four times, blatantly. Hon Minister is going to have you in the House. Mine is an easy one. This is what he said that he loves you.


member to ask his question so that the Minister must be able to hear the member. If you are behaving like this how would the Minister hear what hon Essack ... [Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: The Minister is going to fall out of love with her disarray.



about the supplementary question?

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chairperson, through you to hon Minister, any who is the Minister of Tourism I asked this question in the spirit of a tour operator, so forgive the wording but I’m sure you will grasp the point I’m trying to make. Therefore, as a tour operator waiting for a license to be renewed and some have been waiting since April 2017, some one and half year back now, I still require an income to survive. If I have tourist who have booked my services and I have to make a choice because I’m now sitting with an illegal unlicensed vehicle. If I get stopped by the Traffic Department I will get a fine. If I get into an accident my insurance therefore will not pay. What then are my options? Break the law or starve? This is unacceptable.

My question then is, what are these tour operators, hon Minister, who have applied to renew their licenses supposed to do when they are waiting over some 18 months? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TOURISM: I mean I can’t try to defend that it is unacceptable situation. I think it is a situation that arose out a transition as well. But, still that means we addressed and addressed


urgently. Therefore, I just have to repeat what I said earlier. I got a number of notes on the outcome of the meetings of the two directors-general ... [Inaudible.] ... I’m going to get the time to go through all of the agreements that they ... [Inaudible.] ... in order to expedite the process and deal with a number of associate matters. However, I think the answer now is for me to have my meeting with Minster Nzimande list, I mean the industry has already listed including the very sought of companying case that you are just brought to our attention.

The industry has listed some of these concerns in this area and to have that meeting and then to report in the transparent matter reports the outcomes of that meeting so that we know that in this area that we are advancing. There is no use to us advancing in the area of ... [Inaudible.] ...        and advancing in the area of transformation. But, there are other critical factors in that impact negatively on the tourism sector that we are not addressing adequately. So, I take the point and I take the challenge to take it up more vigorously. Thank you.


you very much. That then brings us to the end of the first two sessions. As we conclude, the session may I just bring something to

the attention of the Chief Whip? I think in order for us to ... [Inaudible.] ... problem that we have to experience ... [Inaudible.]
... just need to go back to basics of the establishment of ... [Inaudible.] ... and the sitting arrangement of the institution ... [Inaudible.]... provinces are allocated their seats and therefore probably ... it’s a matter that I’m bringing to the attention of the Chief Whip because members are very consistent. Other members are very consistent. Others are very inconsistent in doing ... [Inaudible.] ... their way. Nevertheless, that brings us to the end of the business of the day and the House is adjourned.

Questions concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:32