Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 30 Oct 2018


No summary available.




The Council met at 14:01

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, in accordance with Council Rule 247(1) there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. Therefore, today we are only dealing with questions.

Cluster 3B

Question 199:

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, Chairperson and members of the NCOP. The Department of Women has produced a Draft Sanitary Dignity Implementation Framework, which

spells out the norms and standards intended for beneficiaries. The value chain of manufacturing, production, storage, distribution and waste disposal; a national interdepartmental task team has been established under the auspices of the Department of Women to work out a comprehensive strategy and implementation framework ... [Interjections.] ... so that all intended beneficiaries who are indigent girls and women are reached.

The national task team meets once per quarter and the national Departments of Health and Basic Education are part of the task team. The National Treasury as pronounced by the Minister of Finance during the Medium-term Budget Policy Statement will embark on a sanitary, dignity rollout project in all provinces in the new financial year 2019-20.

The Department of women is also involved in a process of galvanising other institutions in the private sector to support the project within the context of private public partnership. Thank you.

Dr H E MATEME: Chairperson, we appreciate the response by the hon the Minister and I would like to know whether by poor we are also including the rural areas, the girls behind the mountains who must cross the rivers when they go to school, etc.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, yes, by girls we mean all the girls in the rural areas from poverty stricken families who are in the indigent register and the others would be in the grant register. Ya, it is everyone but we are going to focus on particular pin child, not where parents are able to support.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, thank you very much you clearly spelt out what your mandate is in terms of sanitary, dignity implementation framework which is to set out the norms, standards, procurement and the modalities of an effective implementation. Can you please explain to me whether the sanitary towels that have been handed out to learners have been endorsed and certified by the SA Bureau of standards or any of its other agencies in terms of the Standards Act; and if so, how this has been assured across the board in terms of the delivery of sanitary towels, and if not why not?

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, I am going to speak for head office now. We are in partnership with Procter and Gamble; and we all know that those are huge companies. And other provinces buy from different co-operatives and we hope that all sanitary pads that are being distributed are healthy because for now we haven’t heard or received any complaint. If there

is anything that the member knows of will she please give us that information so that we can make a follow up?

Ms M C DIKGALE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. I want to appreciate the response we got from our Minister and also to ask this question: I just want to check if ever the departments are really making a research of how quality is the sanitary towels because we have heard that the others that are being used, especially in our rural communities, are of poor quality and they end up causing cervical cancers to our girls? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, may be I should make a commitment that we are going to make a follow up but not all of them. And secondly, there is also a batch that has not been used so far.


Nks P C SAMKA: Sekela Sihlalo, ndicinga ukuba uMphathiswa seyiphendule eminye imibuzo kodwa ndifuna aphinde aqinisekise le Ndlu ukuba ngawaphi amaphondo asele eqhuba le nkqubo yokuhambisa imiqoshelo kumantombazana kwaye ingaba iyafikeleleka kusini na ezikolweni? Enkosi kakhulu Sekela Sihlalo.



KwaZulu-Natal iyona esabalalisayo, esinyawo kodwa noma kunjalo sisafuna ukuya ngoba sifuna ukutshalaliswa kwenziwe ngendlela ethile. Asifuni nje yenzeke singakwazi ukuphendula. I-Mpumalanga iyona elandelayo. I-Gauteng iyona futhi ekwazi ukusabalalisa. Ezinye izifundazwe ziyasabalalisa kodwa zibuye ziyeke ...


... because they depend on what they have, they depend on donations and also we also at the head office we depend on the campaign that we are driving for free sanitary towels.

Question 209:

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: The department is responsible for developing national action plans or frameworks for mainstreaming gender with government structures, advancing women’s empowerment and gender equality, as well as monitors the implementation and progress in this regard.

The Department of Women engages with the national department that is responsible for the delivery of economic opportunities for all

citizens, more particularly since we are responsible for women and the youth.

The department also plays a role in liaising with civil society organisations to advance the national gender programmes. We also ensure that we contribute in relation to the mainstream of gender imperatives in national development planning, budgeting, auditing, monitoring and evaluation so as to ensure that planning is gender sensitive.

We also ensure that there is gender-responsive budgeting in the Medium Term Strategic Framework MTSF, and the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF processes. This includes designing and developing gender monitoring and evaluation systems and intervention mechanisms to enhance the empowerment of women in collaboration with the Department of Planning, Monitoring, Evaluation; Stats SA and other relevant entities.

In the current medium term, the department is drawing on fiscal policy and administration to strengthen efforts to ensure that all sectors of society allocate gender-responsive plans and budgets towards the execution of their organisational objectives.

The framework for gender-responsive planning and budgeting compels each department and institution to specify how they are going to determine the results of the delivery at women and the amount of money that they will distribute to women to change their socioeconomic conditions.

The national task team responsible for the development of this framework is comprised of officials from the Departments of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, Public Service and Administration, Justice and Constitutional Development and the National Treasury among others.

However, gender-responsive planning and budgeting is not limited to, state institutions, in addition to being an important tool for public sector reform, it is also an imperative ethos for all sectors of the society, more particularly the private sector.

The department is also responsible for developing country-gender indicators, which are aligned to international, continental, regional and national policy priorities; and this will drive data collection and enable evidence-based performance reviews across all sectors and national outcomes. Thank you.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Minister, true to form you have used wonderful words, you have said, “delivery of the economic opportunities, advancing gender programmes and enhancing gender programmes” yet, you have said that the department is unsure of determining the results. I will tell you what the results are Minister.

Forty-seven percent of women under the age of thirty-five are unemployed. It is very clear that these wonderful programmes that you are talking about, are not working. I don’t think that goes further than the piece of paper that you have just read them off.

I would like to ask you Minister with all these wonderful words and all the wonderful promises that you have made to the women of South Africa, we have got hundreds of child-headed households, where young girls are heading up their households, with no opportunity for economic freedom or economic redress.

What is your department doing to assist these young girls that are heading up these households? What are you doing to assist them and alleviate and take them out of their abject poverty, in which they live? Thank you, Chair.


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think for child-headed households, government has a programme of caregivers that look after them. Unfortunately, in some of the areas they don’t have child caregivers. The child caregiver from the morning up until evening follows the child.

There is a basket of services for the girl child and therefore what we are contributing to, is the framework that the department delivers the basket of services should take into consideration the issues of health.

We also have the injection for cervical cancer now for girls. We also have food in school, we also have treatment for free health care for kids under a particular age, and that is the basket of services that is supposed to go to the girl child. More still needs to be done, more particularly, the protection on the issues of violence, rape and the killings, generality of women in the country.

Secondly, the challenges of unemployment face the whole country and no province can stand up and say we are doing very well when it comes to employment.

However, what we have done, is that whether you talk of investment or job summit, we have said there must be a clear categorisation of who is going to benefit and how that person is going to benefit because you have the elite, you have women in the middle class, but for us the most important woman that has to benefit is a poor woman that is at the bottom of the ladder of development. That is the woman we are focusing on.

But also, we must know that the condition of women in the country is caused by structural patriarchy that has always increased the gap between the rich and the poor.

We have a problem of people who do not want to accept that South Africa is a free country now. We have people that do not believe in the distribution of the wealth of the citizens of the country. So those are some of the challenges that face as South Africa.

Mr M RAYI: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister. Both the job summit and the presidential investment summit have laid a formidable foundation for addressing unemployment and creating work opportunities for our people, especially the poor, the question is what are the plans of the department in ensuring that

women, especially unemployed young graduates benefit from initiatives that both are coming from both summits. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Okay, maybe we should mention that the Department of Women is not a service delivery department. It is a department that deals with policy making. I think you can pose that question to millions of South African women that asked for the Department of Women because they wanted a department that will directly deal with their issues.

However, women did not want to be ghetto wise, because if you ghetto wise women they end up not benefiting anything out of the processes of development. Those that made women pay taxes like those that were oppressed during apartheid times will laugh when they know that they oppressed even their wives.

Now... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I, can I, just hold on hon Minister, may I just protect the Minister now; because if there is a supplementary, question allow the Minister to respond, and if you would just give yourself time to listen, you will find that even

your supplementary question would not be necessary; but if you keep on interjecting on and on.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Also, one other thing that we need to raise here is that ours is to deal with, as I said before, policy landscape; and very soon – I think in two weeks time we are going to have a summit that will be receiving a report on responsive budgeting and auditing as well as planning, monitoring and evaluation.

However, the DA must remember that it will take a lot of time to transform this country, and they must not come here and shout and not do anything. When you shout you must do something. The framework that we will be presenting to the women of the country, the summit on violence against women and femicide, those are going to be charting the way forward.

We will be talking to women that come from different sectors and they will raise their views. For the first time, women have an opportunity to come together and close this phase that was grabbed by those who think they can speak better for us. So give us a chance so that we speak for ourselves and be part of the change that we are

fighting for. You are going to benefit a lot and you are going to understand human rights and practice them.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you very much, Minister. My question is, the Minister is aware that in terms of the statistics we are still having more white males who get higher salaries as opposed to women in the country, and in terms of employment, the people that are at the advantage stage in most cases in the country are white males and black males.

Now, as your department is busy trying to transform the patriarchal system of governance in the country, what it is that your department is planning to improve on women getting more work and as you know that we are as women, getting a pink tax? What is it that you are going to do to improve on that so that we are on the par with our male counterparts? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I agree with the hon member that reports and what we see, the reports that were released by the Department of Women shows that, one, at the university or tertiary institution level you have more girls, but when they finish school, they don’t get jobs. It is their male counterparts that find jobs; but what is worse is that whilst they are together at school there

are those that have jobs that are reserved for them, that has not stopped.

In the top management level, there are more males than females, and in the CEOs level, we have more males than females; on the JSE you have 2,2% of women; within the BEE you have 38% representation of blacks on boards and only 18% are black females. That is proving to the fact that the labour market in South Africa is skewed. It favours white males, black males and then white women.

When we say that we are going to have the gender-responsive budget and audit, it is one of the programmes or processes we are going to use to try and ensure that at least government gives leadership by employing women in senior positions; so as to ensure that we deal with the mismatch because we have more women in the country than men. Also, women do have the capacity, but because of the situation, even their conditions disadvantage them sometimes.

We all know that when you reach your peak as a woman, it is during the time of your pregnancy. When you begin to be a mother that is when you should be rising; other thing laws favour men and we are the ones that look after children. So that upward mobility has always been lower amongst women. Therefore, I agree with that and I

say that we need to fight this patriarchy in the country that believes in machoism, that believes in masculinity and change conditions.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, I must also now agree with members, “hee kuyabanda la,” “hee kuyabanda la”. Can you please just adjust the air conditioner? Don’t switch it off just adjust.


Moh T J MOKWELE: Ekare rona maAforika ka fa, re bantsinyana, jaanong batho ba ba batlang gore mmele ya bona e nne maruru, ba bikinyane, jaanong are dumelane gore re bantsi.


That air conditioner must be switched off.


Re a gatsela bagaetsho



Ms T J MOKWELE: Agreed, sure.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I can feel it as well. Okay, fine.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you, Chair. Minister, you will agree with me that women need education in order to empower themselves.
With this in mind Minister, without education, we know they do not have the skills to participate in the economy of today.

However, many girls miss school because they do not have an access to sanitary towels, why has the Department of Education supported by your department not yet launched a national programme to educate young women and girls in schools, and when to start using sanitary products.

Also, I want to know from you Minister, when to get the private partnership to help provide the sanitary products for girls, providing the sanitary products in a way that the girls don’t feel exposed and humiliated as it doesn’t affect their dignity. I want you to answer that as a mother. Thank you, Mam.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will allow the Minister, but I take it that the second part of the question has been responded to; but if you are willing Minister, just to remind the House again.
Order! Order, hon members!



iqiniso, bengizama nje ukuwulandela umbuzo, awuzwakali kahle kodwa sisebenzisana nabezemfundo nabezempilo kuhlelo lwama-sanitary towels. Okwesibili, sinayo i-private-public partnership nalokho futhi sikushilo ekuqaleni ukuthi sinakho futhi njengamanje angifuni ukukhipha ingulube esakeni kodwa kunabantu abasithembise ukuthi bazonikela ngama-sanitary towels angaphezu kuka-300 000. Ngakho angifuni ukuthi ngikhulume la kanti asisayitholi leyonto. Sizoyiveza uma ngabe isifikile. [Ihlombe.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point are you rising, hon member?

Mr M KHAWULA: On a point of order, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What point of order? Can I hear?

Mr M KHAWULA: I just want to find out from the hon Minister: What has she done to the two ladies? She seems to have two friends in the House. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, that is not a point of order. Hon Minister! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! Hon members, order! [Interjections.] I have made a ruling on that point, that it is not a point of order and therefore I am not going to sustain it. Can you allow the Minister to respond?

Question 201

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, the underrepresentation of women is of great concern to us, as it is both political and economic. The 2017-18 report by the Commission for Employment Equality indicates that females constitute only 21,7% of top management; 32,3% of senior management positions in terms of representation of women with the various sectors of the economy. For 2017-18, the same report indicates that women are progressing slower than their male counterparts in senior and top management positions.

Furthermore, the Gender (Dis)parity in South Africa report, shows that in 2017, there were 10% female CEOs in South Africa, which is behind the global average of 12%. The Businesswomen’s Association of

South Africa reported in 2016 that about 22% of directors in the corporate sector were women, and only 7% were executive directors.

Listed companies have 38% of women in management, and only 18% are black women. This shows that women are only predominant in sectors where there are soft skills. Soft skills in South Africa are undermined. They are not included in GDP.

So, people see their lives going on and they think that it is automatic, when it is actually through women power, because someone has to wake up in the morning to prepare for everyone that has to go to school and work. She remains behind, clean the house and cook for them. They come back, eat and throw everything anyhow and go to bed. So they think that is automatic whereas it is not. They also look after older people, the sick and people with disability while active in the labour marker as well. These, whether intended or unintended, have hampered their full integration into the labour market.

Furthermore, women’s reproductive roles and responsibilities work against them. I think we have raised that. Other factors that also play a role are: Educational levels and skills acquisition by women with disadvantages against those of men. There is a mismatch between

the levels of education attained by women and their prospects of economic opportunities and employment.

There are more women in tertiary institutions. I think we have also raised that. I would like to also raise concerns in this august House about the detrimental economic impact of violence against women in the country. It does not only impact on their absence from work, but also robs them of their self-esteem and confidence to progress and succeed in the corporate world. This is a huge negative impact on women aspiring to be senior managers and to be in other decision-making positions as well.

A very important point to also note is that for women to succeed in the world of work, which is fundamentally male oriented and masculine in nature, women are expected to behave like men. You will even notice that the dress code for the boardroom is suits. Women who succeed are power dressers, as it is commonly known. It is a man’s world and a boy’s club in the main.

For a woman to break into this, she must play golf, do sundowner cocktails after work, own a cigar jacket and be part of a boy’s club that plan a meeting and take decisions before you even attend a

meeting. When they are in a meeting with you, you think they are very clever, whereas they practised before they attend a meeting.

The Employment Equity Act as amended, as well as a Code of Good Practice on Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value must be fully implemented and monitored. The regulations on compliance and penalties for noncompliance must be effectively and fully implemented, so that there is enforcement by the commission for employment equity toward the attainment of this legal provision on equity.

The Cabinet also has responsibility to ensure that entities within their centres work towards equity targets as well. For example, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs made a public call for women engineers, town planners and artisans to come forward and seek employment within municipality recovery programmes that government is embarking on currently. However, this does not end with the pronouncement; it ends with going out to look for those qualifying young women. If you make a pronouncement, a young woman in Mqanduli will not know what to do.


Ms N P KONI: I want to check with you, Chairperson, if it is parliamentary to sleep in the House.


is not. Whoever is doing that, please stop it. Continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: This serves as a good example for other colleagues in Cabinet to follow. Similarly, captains of industry must make a deliberate commitment to promote gender parity in their companies, especially within the ranks of senior and top management. Thank you.

Ms E PRINS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you for a very detailed reply, and for even replying my follow up question on identifying the sectors which are responsible. My question was: Did you identify the sectors where we have severe underrepresentation of women? However, you already replied to it. The only follow-up question that I will ask is: By identifying those sectors, what interventions is the department spearheading to break those barriers. You mentioned the Equity Acts and all the laws that are in place, and you also emphasised that you are going to enforce these legislations. Despite that, and for a number of years, we see very


little that has been done or happening to enforce the laws. What other measures can we put in place to really show the sectors out there that we are very serious? It is a serious business; it is not a joke. They must take our women seriously. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think what women must understand is that patriarchy is here. There are areas where we need to fight together and that will not mean that we are no longer members of our organisation, but it will mean we have a single platform of action. When there is a demand, we must try and grow gradually because we used to have our space as a coalition. We won a lot and we were represented in the negotiations but after elections, we went back to our corners. That has delayed our struggle a lot. At the time of the coalition, we were able to come up with a Charter for Effective Equality. We worked for that. It did not come like manna; it was not a present. Whatever we have accomplished as women, was never a present. It has been the struggles of ordinary women.
That is why when we are here, we must always understand that it is ordinary women who put us here. Therefore, they must be a priority in our agenda.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Minister, it is evident that we are disadvantaged indeed as women in this country, in many things. It is evident that


there is no commitment, especially from those that are in control of means of production. It is also evident that the economy of South Africa is driven particularly by male counterparts. Having said that, as women, we have struggled and it came from way back. Our struggle most of all was because of land so that we can be able to produce and also be able to participate in the economy of the country. My question to you Minister is: Do you agree that if government can legislate expropriation of land without compensation, then it will allow women to own land and participate effectively in the economy of the country and also be able to produce in crop farming or any other sort of farming? Again, do you believe that if we give titles deeds to our people, especially women, then it will assist them? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your two minutes has expired.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Eish, but this person ... I paused because these two

... and I don’t want to say anything to them today.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is within the rules, hon members. [Interjections.] Supplementary question has just two minutes! [Interjections.]


Ms T J MOKWELE: Okay, I will ask on the next question. I know it will be relevant again on the next question, Minister.




kakhulu ukuthi uma kungenziwa umthetho. Okokuqala, ukubhekwa koMthethosisekelo; okwesibili ukwenziwa komthetho kodwa ...


... as women, we need to be very vigilant when it comes to the law- making process because even now my father’s house belongs to my grandfather. It also belonged to my great grandfather before. When it comes to our generation, it now belongs to my brothers. So, I don’t have a land as a woman. We need more land. We don’t want to be squashed in the already-occupied land because it is already full.
Hence, we need more land. We want to work the land as we have always done. It is women in the rural areas who have worked the land.


... nobaba bethi beyobona izinkomo zabo emakhaya basuke beyobona izinkomo ezibhekwe omama. Kwesithathu, umhlaba njengempahla ukwenza


ube nesithunzi. Ungakwazi futhi ukuthi ube ngumlimi, ungakwazi futhi ukuthi uthengise njengomlimi. Kufanele namamakhethe avuleleke kubo bonke abantu besifazane.

Enye into, yebo siyayidinga itayitela kodwa hhayi itayitela engenandawo. Itayitela esiyidingayo yitayitela enendawo eyanele.


Even in towns, we do want title deeds but our houses must be closer to the work area and closer to schools.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I see the speakers are not working very well. Minister, thank you very much for that response in terms of the challenges that women face. You have given us details of our challenges and you have given us details of what other departments are doing. You have spoken about summits, about talking, about meetings, about raising the views of women, yet I need to remind you that you are the Minister of Women. Neither you nor your department seem capable of empowering women though. I will tell you something, Minister: In Johannesburg, where the DA governs, we have a woman and elderly subunit where we have a mandate to create opportunities for women, coming from poorer households. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Engelbrecht, just hold. On what point are you rising hon member?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Engelbrecht is misleading the country. The DA does not govern Johannesburg; it is not true. [Interjections.] You are not governing Johannesburg; it is not true. You are not governing Johannesburg [Interjections.] So, she must not mislead the country. You’ve got a mayorship; you not governing that municipality. That’s a mayorship; you must understand!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I think that’s a political statement more than a point of order. Are you done, hon Engelbrecht? Okay! On what point are you rising hon member?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order, I just want to say this through you to the hon Mokwele: She must just listen! Makuna?
Makwele! Makwele! Makwele! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay fine! Aah aah, hon Mokwele! I just corrected. [Interjections.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: She must just listen ... [Interjections.] ... and then listen very carefully that the hon Engelbrecht said DA-led


government. It means the DA has the majority and other parties are in the coalition. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, can you take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon members, we all know ... [Interjections.] Hon members, order! [Interjections.]Order! Can you avoid to be tempted to turn a question session into a policy matter or a political debate. Can you conclude your follow-up question?

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, thank you, I will continue. In Johannesburg, we have a woman and elderly subunit ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Engelbrecht, just take you seat. On what point are you rising hon member?

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order. I think it is actually appropriate for members to first study how the department is structured before they ask question. They must also draw a distinction between implementing departments and co- ordinating departments.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, fine. Hon Engelbrecht!

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, as I originally said, the Minister is a Minister of Women, so we would like to invite her ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Engelbrecht, can I recognise the hon member. On what point are you rising?


Nksz P C SAMKA: Sihlalo weNdlu, andikho koku kuthethwayo. Ndicela ngemvuume yakho Sihlalo ukuba iNdlu le ikhe inqumame. Ukuba ngaba anifuni sigule kule Ndlu. Ukuba siyahlala apha, sizakufela apha. Ndiyacela Sihlalo ngembeko nokuzithoba, sizakufela apha sisitsho ukuba kuyabanda ube ungasatylwa lo mcimbi. Siyafa yingqele. Enkosi.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I would sustain that because I made a comment earlier on that let us not be tempted to turn a questions session into a political debate - a policy matter. Let us not be tempted to do that. Hon Chabangu!


Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, I think I am addressing you; I am not addressing any other Tom, Dick and Harry! Maybe this is a sabotage
... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I just rule on that: Hon members are hon members and you must respect them.

Mr M M CHABANGU: I withdraw!


Mr M M CHABANGU: Sit down! [Interjections.]


Mnu A J NYAMBI: Uyadelela wena ndoda! Udelela ... [Akuzwakali.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, he said he withdraws!


Mnu A J NYAMBI: Iyakugezisa lento ... [Akuvakali.]


Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, protection, please. Maybe this is a sabotage: Only one television is working; those that are on your side are not working and Parliament is in session.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What side are you referring to? Ooh the monitors! Ooh okay! Can the technical team just make a follow up on the monitors, please? Yes, hon Engelbrecht!

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, with all the interruptions, my question has been lost. So, what if I can just start all over again? [Interjections.] Can I finish? [Interjections.] Can I finish, Chair?


[Interjections.] Can I remind you: You are still left with a minute, You have not lost your time.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Can you protect me, Chair?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have not lost your time, just be rest assured.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Okay, but are you protecting me?


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can we listen to the other member, please? Yes, hon member!

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: We would like to show the Minister, now that she or her department knows how to empower women, we would to show her where in the Johannesburg DA-led coalition government, we have ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! No, did you listen to her? [Interjections.] She said the Johannesburg coalition-led ... Can you just continue, hon member!

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: We have a woman and elderly subunit where we are empowering women, up to the age of 35, from very bad economic situations. We would like to invite the Minister to come and look, and learn. Maybe she and her department can see how to minister to empower women, something that is needed so urgently from your department. Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think maybe we need to do exchange, because something says to you that you are the ones that have to empower the poor. We don’t have indigenous knowledge systems that our people have. Also, the late Mama Winnie says the man used


the very agency of women to fight other women. [Applause.] Yes, we have to challenge the work that we are doing, but being feminist or gender-sensitive activist or just understanding the basic issues about women is very important because you don’t want to destroy the work that has been done. So, consciousness at this level is very important. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr E MAKUE: Minister, I want to start off by saying how much we appreciate your remark that we are here because of ordinary women. I want to link onto the original question posed by the hon Prins, particularly the section that refers to the private sector. I want to say we do know that estimates of 2009 are that only 2,9% of women entrepreneurs are funded by commercial banks. That situation has not improved very much. Then I want to propose respectfully that we zoom in and answer the question: What is it that is been done now by the women in the Presidency to ensure that commercial banks make more money available for women entrepreneurs?

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Working with the Treasury, for us, has been very important because they are the ones who make rules and regulations for financial institutions. Therefore, we hope that they are going to work with us in trying to ensure that women are able to access funding. That is one of our key areas because


what has made women to be abused is that they economically depend on other people. Therefore, empowering them economically is going to change their status. However, after the summit, we are going to take the report to Cabinet. After the Cabinet, it will go to the National Assembly and thereafter it will come here, so that we all understand that this is the path we are taking and it needs support of law makers.

Question 212:

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: The Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Act 2013 protects women and children from trafficking and related unlawful acts. The legislation fulfils the objectives to provide for an offence of trafficking in persons and other offences associated with trafficking in persons; to prevent and combat the trafficking in persons within or across the borders of the republic; to provide for measures to protect and assist victims of trafficking in persons; to provide for the establishment of the intersectoral committee on prevention and combating of trafficking in persons and the criminalisation of practices resulting in forced and early marriages and harmful cultural and traditional practices such as ukuthwala; and it also has the effect of domesticating the United Nations Protocol to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons.


Harmful practices which negatively affect the fundamental rights of women and girls are expressly prohibited in South Africa. The Equality Act section 8(d) stipulates that unfair discrimination on the grounds of gender including any practice, including traditional, customary or religious practice which impairs the dignity of women and undermines equality between women and men, including the undermining of the dignity and the wellbeing of the girl child.

The department therefore advocates for the criminalisation of the illegal forms of ukuthwala as the court has already done and that all other forms of ukuthwala must be prohibited. The Department of Women recommended that existing laws should be amended while drafting a new statute on harmful traditional practices. It also proposed that the South African Law Reform Commission amends the Recognition of Customary Marriages Act 120 of 1998 to protect the victims of ukuthwala and ukungena who have already accepted their condition and consider themselves as married under customary law.

Virginity testing is expressly prohibited and regarded as a form of gender discrimination in South Africa. Relevant legislation in this regard is the Equality Act 2000 and the Children’s Act of 2005. The Children’s Act 2005 prohibits virginity testing of children under the age of 16. A child older than 16 may undergo virginity testing


on three conditions: She shall give concern to the testing person in a prescribed manner; after she has been properly counselled and the testing is conducted in the manner prescribed; the results of the virginity testing may not be disclosed without the consent of the child. In addition, the body of the child who has undergone virginity testing may not be marked. Thank you.





Ms D B NGWENYA: Deputy Chair ...


... ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe, ngithanda nokubonga ngokusho ukuthi njengabantu besifazane kufuneka sihlangane ukuze sisebenzisane nezinto ezenzekayo la ...


... in our country that are working against women.



Kwindaba yokuhlolwa Ngqongqoshe uthi ...


... it is prohibited according to the Act but is it criminalised? That is my first question. Do we have people that have been arrested and charged for practising this thing?


Okwesibili ...


... is the issue of the child brides in South Africa – it is very real and it is happening. In the statistics that was conducted by Statistics SA in 2016 survey, it was found that we have 91 000 girls between the ages of 12 and 17 that are forced into these marriages.

It is clear that these Acts do not work to protect these children. Is there anything or any way of protecting these children from your department that you are considering and working on because clearly, all these Acts that you have mentioned have not been working for our children?


Are you going to do something to ensure that these practices do not continue? Thank you very much.



kakhulu kwilungu elihloniphekile, isipiliyoni noma ulwazi esinalo mayelana nezingane ezishadiswa zisencane ukuthi kungaba KwaZulu- Natal naseMpumalanga Koloni nakwezinye izindawo, bakhona abantwana abashadiswa besebancane, ngenza isibonelo. Abantwana bayalandwa kahle osonhlalakahle kodwa abanye abazali bazibuyisela emuva kulabantu ababashadile ...


... because most of the time they would have accepted lobola [dowry] from those people. So, as the department, some of the issues that we have raised that we are going to focus on at the summit, as the Minister of Justice pronounced during his budget speech, are that there must be a fast review of the Criminal Procedure Act as well as the sexual Offences Act and Domestic Violence Act because



i-Domestic Violence Act awukwazi ukuyisebenzisa, iwumthetho nje okhona.


So, it must be applicable and that is why it is important for the whole country to focus on that summit because it is going to talk about ways of preventing violence against women and children.

One other thing that the Minister said is going to be looked into is the issue of the minimum sentence of people who abuse or kill women. Right now it is 20 years and he that it will change during the review and we believe that it is going to change. Parliament will also have an opportunity to look into that.

We have also observed that we have passed many laws that we thought were going to work and were going to be implementable but because the judiciary itself is patriarchal, it has find ways of protecting those that are on the wrong side. What we fought for – that women must be given an opportunity to give evidence in court – has been turned against women. Whilst you have suffered abuse, you suffer secondary abuse in court because of the nature of the court. Thank you Deputy Chairperson.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, hon Minister, it is true that as women we are facing abuse in all corners especially with our cultural and religious customs. We have seen recently that sexual abuse is now practiced by people that we think can protect us because they are the most important people in the names of pastors and ministers.

We really have to stand on our own as women but we need the government, especially your Ministry, in fighting the patriarchal system that we are living in and masculinity and all sorts of abuses that we are facing.

We are kindly appealing to your department to assist in making sure that we have sexual offence courts in the country where by when we are dealing with cases of sexual abuse, victims are not victimised by this untransformed male judiciary system ...


... e re phelang mo tlase ga yona.


It is not a question Minister, we are appealing to you that you must make sure that as a country we have sexual offences courts so that we can deal with this abuse.



Minister, that is a comment. The Minister acknowledges and agrees with you. [Applause.]


Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, cha, uchaze kahle, uchaze kahle ikakhulukazi kulolu daba lokuhlolwa kwezintombi nemibandela ebekwe uHulumeni kodwa nakhu-ke la ngikhona- ke mhlonishwa, uHulumeni wenzani ngaphezu kwemithetho ukufundisa nokuthi abantu baqonde ukuhlukanisa phakathi kwezinto ezamukelekile kanye nezinto eziwubugebengu? Ngoba ezinye zalezi zinto umhlonishwa akhuluma ngazo njengokuthwala ubugebengu nje. Izindaba zokuthi abantu baphoqwe ukuthi bagane abanye iwubugebengu. Kodwa-ke kuye kungikhathaze mina uma ngabe, ngoba enye yezinto eyenziwe wuhlelo lwengcindezelo emiphakathini yakithi ukufakwa kwemicabango emiqondweni yabantu bakithi ukuze sengathi ithi ayikho into enhle ezintweni ezithize ezazenziwa emiphakathini yakithi.

Ngikhathazwa yinto efana noMkhosi woMhlanga laphaya KwaZulu-Natal, okuwumcimbi omuhle owenziwa yiSilo namakhosi aseNdlunkulu laphaya kwaZulu kodwa kuye ukuthi uma kwenziwa bese kuye kubekhona imibiko nje ewuhlambalazayo kuze kube sengathi ithi kufaniswa nale mikhuba engamukelekile eyenziwa yilabantu abayizigebengu. Ngakho


engikubuzayo ukuthi, yini eyenziwayo nguHulumeni ukuvikela lezi zinto ezinhle ezazidalelwe ukugcina isimo sobunjalo bethu sibe ngesihloniphekile kungeve kuwukuthi kuhlanjalazwa abantu bobulili obuthize. Ngiyabonga.


siyavulana nokuthi kunezinto ezingeyona ingxenye yamasiko ethu kodwa esezaphenduka zenziwa kwangathi zingamasiko ethu. Ukuthwala nje, ukuthwala ngenye into ebheke eceleni ngendlela ekwenziwa ngayo kodwa futhi ngoba sekwaba yinto ephendukile, kuzobanzima ukuyibuyisela emuva ngakhoke kungcono nje sizame ukuthi ingabe isenzeka.
Okwesibili, kukhona nje ezindaweni le KwaZulu-Natal uma ngabe umuntu wesifazane egqoke ibhulukwe abulawe kuthiwe akulona isikho lethu lelo kodwa amabhulukwe afika nabanye abantu lana. Thina sasigqoka nje izidwaba, amabheshu neziketi zesikhumba ezinde ngaphambili zizinde ngemuva simfushane lana, besigqoka nje ngokukhululeka. Kodwa manje sekushona abantu ngoba kukhona abathi ibhulukwe akulona isiko. Okwesithathu, ngoMkhosi woMhlanga ikomidi leli eliphathelene namasiko liyaya khona liyobheka ukuthi izinto zenzeka ngendlela efanelikile na, leli komidi eliphethwe usisi uThoko Xaluva.
Okwesibili, akhona namatende. Okwesithathu, njengoba sisho ukuthi abantwana mabangaphawulwa yingoba kumele ukuthi abantwana abavumile ukuthi baya laphaya bavikeleke ngoba kube kwaba khona ngemuva into


ethi, umtwana oyintombi ethe phama ulapha igciwane lesandulela ngculazi.

Ngakhoke siyagqugquzela yonke iminyango sikhuluma ngalezo zinto kodwa sibuye sazi ukuthi njengoba kade uchazile ukuthi kuthathe isikhathi eside amasiko ethu ephenduphendulwa enziwa noma yini abantu abayithandayo ngakhoke kuzothatha isikhathi eside futhi ukuphinda kufundiswe kahle abantu bakithi ukuthi, nanti leli usiko lakithi, nanti leli usiko lakithi futhi lingasetshenziswa ukuthi lenze omunye umuntu abonakale ehlukumezekile. Njengabantu besifazane, bebehlonishwa kakhulu kuqala abantu besifazane kodwa manje abasahlonishwa. Ngakhoke sithini-ke manje thina uma ngabe singasahlonishwa singabantu besifazane? Kubalulekile ukufundisa, kubalulekile siwagcine amasiko amahle futhi uHulumeni la ekufuneka angenelele khona uma ebona ukuthi abantu bayaqhubeka nokulithanda lelo siko, kumele silivule, wonke umuntu alibone ukuthi ngempela liyabavikela abantu. Ngiyabonga.


Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Sekela Sihlalo, kuyacaca kuMphathiswa ukuba iphulo lakhe lokukhusela abantu basetyhini lihambela phambili.



I want you to commit to the South Africans that you will propagate for full title deeds of property within communal and traditional areas to be given to women thus ensure security of tenure [Interjections.] for this ... [Interjections.] Can I have your protection?


Mokwele, can we listen to the question? [Interjections.] I will determine whether ... [Inaudible.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA:          For these vulnerable women because, Minister...


... kuyabonakalo ukuba ufuna ukukhusela abafazi. Ngokubanika iziqinisekiso zobumnini-mhlaba, uyabaxhobisa kanjalo.


Security of tenure is central in empowering women who are affected by these practices in order to be part of the mainstream economy. Thank you, Minister.



once again, just to caution this House: Sometimes we are so tempted to behave as if - I hate to say it but I have to - in the structure of the National Assembly. That is why even if members hackle, you don’t irritate each other to the point where they can’t hear what the speaker is saying. If we want to behave like that in this House, bear in mind that the question might not be heard. I am just cautioning members. You can hackle but don’t shout at other members. [Interjections.] It is her right by the way; she is protected here. [Interjections.] So, let us respect other members. [Interjections.] You see, you are not even listening to me. Hon Minister, you will guide us whether it is a question or a comment.



uthi ...


... expropriation of the land without compensation. [Applause.]


Moh T K MAMPURU: Mohl Modulasetulo, e re ke re go Tona ke leboga ge ke e kwa gore Kgoro ya Toka e nyaka go akgofiša Molao wa Tshepedišo


ya tša Bosenyi le gore le tla ba le samiti le kgone go tšwetša dilo pele. Potšišo ya ka ke gore naa tšeo kamoka ga tšona ge le di dira, kgoro e na le mananeo, ditšhišinyo goba dikakanyo tšeo e tla kgonago go ruta ditšhaba sa rena, kudu tšeo di sa dumelago go meetlo - yeo bontši bja yona e lego e boima, ebile e lego kgahlanong le melao ya naga le tateleno ya melao ya ka gare ga naga? Ke a leboga.



ukuthi lo mbuzo uyabuzwa lana namhlanje ngoba umbuzo wokuqala engawubuza uma ngifika emnyangweni ukuthi, uma ngabe manje kungangena umuntu la angidlwengule kumele ngenze njani? Ngoba kumele ngazi ukuthi ngiyamsola lo, kumele ngazi ukuthi kufanele ngenzeni.
Lo usekwenzile kumele ngazi ukuthi ngenzeni. Thinta kalula amaphoyisa, thinta zonke izinto zibe seduzane kwakho. Ngakhoke njengamanje sisemcimbini wokwenza ipheshana elizobhekana nezinto ezehlukene amakhosikazi abhekene nazo.

Kukhona elinye iphephabhuku – angikhangiseli omunye umuntu – kodwa uDokotela Precious Motsepe analo, into esifuna ukuyenza icishe ifane nalelo bhuku ngoba liyachaza ukuthi uma ngabe ufuna ukuya esikoleni wenzenjani uma uwumuntu wesifazane. Uma ngabe ufuna ukwehlukanisa mhlawumbe ubabe ukukhwelela ngenduku nsuku zonke noma akabondli


abantwana wenzenjani. Iyachaza zonke izinto ukuthi uma ngabe ungumuntu wesifazane uma unenkinga ...


... this is what you should do. So our starting point ...


... yileso esizokwenza nje ukuthi amakhosikazi engqondweni abe nendlela eya phambili kungabi bikho umuntu ozoba usomathuba. Kanti enye into, thina besikhula ufundiswa ekhaya kodwa ngoba isakhiwo somndeni sibuthakathaka njengamanje akusekho lula ukuthi abantwana bafunde lezi zinto esazifundiswa thina.

Question 202:

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the Department of Women continuously engages national departments who are implementing programmes that entail economic opportunities for its citizens. For the mainstreaming of women into the economy by ensuring that their budgets, plans and programmes are responsive to the needs of women and audited for impact.


Further, within these plans, it must be ensured that women are financially included, be it for nonfinancial or financial opportunities.

These interventions are also to be supported by the development of two key national frameworks, namely gender-responsive budgeting, planning and auditing framework, and the women’s financial inclusion framework.            This will serve as guidance tools for the national departments to use in their ongoing activities.

The department of women has released a research report on the status of women in the South African economy which established a baseline for the department and the country as a whole.

Subsequently, it led to the presidential directive that states that women will be included in all plans, policies and programmes of government, particularly within the employment and infrastructure development cluster.

This implies that any progress being made within this cluster’s departments is inclusive of expanding economic opportunities for women.


On a lighter note, if you ask to be part of these committees, it’s officials first that start saying, do you serve in this committee? Who invited you? Because you every day try and push the frontiers and say women are part of this country.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson ...


... mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, umnyango wakho uwuhlobo lomnyango odidiyelayo, iminyango yonke kaHulumeni uthola ukuthi eminingi yayo inezinhlelo zokuthi izobasiza kanjani abantu besifazane ukuze bathuthuke. Ngiyafisa ukwazi ukuthi, zikhona yini izinhlelo zokuthi ngezikhathi lezo ezihlelwe wumnyango wakho bakwazi ukuthi bethule imibiko ukuze sikwazi ukuba sibe nosomqulu noma ulwazi esizothi ngawo, siyazi ukuthi bangaka abantu besifazane abasizakele kulonyaka wezezimali kulolu hlobo lwebhizinisi elincane, eliphakathi nendawo noma elikhulu ukuze kube nolwazi nje ngokubanzi Ngqongqoshe lokuthi sihamba ngesivinini esingakanani sokubasiza abantu besifazane bathuthuke ikakhulukazi kumkhakha wamabhizinisi. Uma ngingangena nje kwiwebhusayithi yomnyango wakho Ngqongqoshe, ngingathole ukuthi abantu besifazane abasizakele kule minyaka emihlanu njengoba siyoqeda nje manje lokuhlala kwaleliPhalamende lesihlanu, bangaka abasiziwe ngaphansi kwamabhizinisi amancane, bangaka abasiziwe


ngaphansi kwamabhizinisi aphakathi nendawo noma amakhulu ukuze sibone ukuthi singakanani isikali nesivinini sokusiza abantu besifazane.

Kanjalo nendaba yamabhange uke waliphatha ukuthi wona-ke ngaphezu komnyango, wona ayayiletha yini imininingwane noma ulwazi lokuthi basizwe kangakanani abantu besifazane emikhakheni yamabhizinisi. Ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe.


ngeBhajethi yonyaka ozayo ngiyathemba siyobe siqala ukuthi sifune ukulalela ukuthi ibhajethi ithini ngabantu besifazane kuyoyonke iminyango. Okwesibili, Umnyango Wezokuhlela, Ukuqapha Nokuhlolwa uma ngabe imiphumela engu-14 enika imibiko ukuphendula achaze ukuthi, nina ukuthi anikwenzanga kahle, nina ukuthi anikwenza kahle, sesihlanganile nabo sabacacisela ukuthi yile indlela thina esiyibonayo ukuthi izokwenza ukuthi wonke umuntu azithinte ngezindaba zabantu besifazane. Okwesithathu, ziyenziwa izinhlolovo mayelana nokuthuthuka kwabantu besifazane kodwa ukuthuthuka manje bekuphezu kokuthi uthanda kanjani ukusebenza nabantu besifazane kodwa manje kuzoba sekutheni uma ngabe wenza ibhajethi noma wenza uhlolo uyasho ukuthi naba engizosebenza nabo, uma wenza uhlolo, naba engisebenze nabo khona uzokhuluma iqiniso. Njengamanje sinikeze


amagama kuMongameli wezwe abantu abazokwenza umbiko ozofaka ushintsho olwenzeke eminyakeni engamashumi amabili nanhlanu edlule ezimpilweni zabantu besifazane ngoba sifuna futhi ukuthi sihlalisane sichazelane neminyango ukuthi, He-e! La asizame ukwenza ngcono  ngoba ngale ndlela akwenzekanga kahle, kuzokwenzeka kahle uma ngabe kwenzeka ngale ndlela. Ngiyabonga.


Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Minister, what is very notable in your lengthy reply is the total lack of any initiative or any ideas to empower women. However, there is hope. I would like to, once again, invite you to Johannesburg to our DA-led coalition government ... [Interjections.] ... where ... [Interjections.]

Chairperson ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, hon members. Can I protect hon Engelbrecht. Please continue, hon Engelbrecht.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, it’s very interesting how, when I am trying to come up with a solution, the other members of the other parties ... the loser parties ... are not prepared to listen to something that can change the way women live. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please hold on, hon Engelbrecht. I recognise hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am rising on a point of order, Chair. You know, there is a tendency of white people that they are always superior over black people. We have noticed that for a very long time. This question that she wants to bring or the advice that she wants to give... the Minister has already responded to it. But, because she’s white, she wants to portray that white supremacy and white superiority over blacks. That’s why she’s doing what she’s doing.

An HON MEMBER: Yes, abuse!

Ms T J MOKWELE: So I would humbly request you, Chair not to allow this question. It is very irrelevant, and so is the advice. She has already made her point about the arrangement of Johannesburg. It’s fine. So let her sit down. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m listening to a point of order.

Ms T J MOKWELE: It’s very cold here. So, I’m appealing to you ...


An HON MEMBER: Hey, take your seat!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I would not necessarily regard that as a point of order, because it is more of a political statement.

But, hon members, I’m sitting here and you are making my life difficult. I’m not from Gauteng. I don’t know the arrangement of that provincial government. Can you allow me just to verify that fact and come back with a ruling. And if it’s a coalition or a mayorship or whatsoever, so that whatever we report in this House, we are factual. Let’s not ...

Hon Engelbrecht, can you avoid a situation where you make statements that are easily contested?

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I hear what you are saying. However, this is something that’s taking place in Johannesburg. This unit ... So I have to mention it because it’s factual. There’s nowhere else in this country where this unit is working. So it’s important.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, fine. Can you pose your supplementary question?

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: That’s what I’m busy with, Chair. Thank you.

So, in Johannesburg — where the DA has a DA-led coalition government, we have a woman ... an elderly sub-unit, Minister ... and I’d really like to find out when you would like to come with us to visit us to see a programme that is really working, and where we are really empowering women, so that you can learn and your department can learn what we are doing and how we are changing women’s lives. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, the Minister has to respond to that question. There is a request or invitation for the Minister to go to Gauteng. Now, it is for the Minister to say whether she would go or not. Now let me allow the Minister an opportunity. [Interjections.] Okay, fine. Hon Minister?



bengithe, ekuqaleni, naye makazobona abantu basebenza kanjani, sithi kanje, sishintshane. [Ihlombe.]


Question 208:

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, the department is a strategic partner of the interministerial committee on the root causes of violence against women and children, which the SAPS, the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and the Department of Justice and Correctional Services also form part of. It therefore provides strategic guidance and leadership on all forms of violence against women and children at a policy and programmatic level.

The department is a member of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster and makes inputs on policy and legislative frameworks tabled by relevant members of the criminal justice system. This intervention ensures that such frameworks are gender responsive and victim or survivor friendly. The department further interfaces with the SAPS, NPA, Department of Justice and Correctional Services, Legal Aid South Africa, and Community Police Forums in planning for the national dialogues and ensure their participation during the dialogues.

Additionally, the department has also been engaging the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service on the policy to reduce the barriers to reporting of sexual offenses and matters of domestic violence.
The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service is tasked with


monitoring the SAPS and Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID. The Department of Women is working with them to ensure that aspects regarding gender-based violence are adequately catered for. The Department of Women is reconceptualising the National Council on Gender-Based Violence to factor in the role of civil society and financial implications.

The main function of the National Council on Gender-Based Violence will be to ensure accountability, improve co-ordination, avoid duplication, and allow for a scaling up of good practices. It will also improve collaboration between community service organisations and government departments and, in particular, use the technical expertise of civil society, including the research sector, in the development of programmes and policies and govern the services they implement.

The department has begun consultations with stakeholders to ensure consistency and a mutual approach. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I made the request. Is there a problem with switching off this set? Let me just switch it off. No, the explanation is that it is off. It takes time to shut down


completely. [Interjections.] I am going to follow up again. Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Chair, I would like to thank the Minister for her efforts.


Ndiqwalasela ukuba ubandakanye namanye amasebe, kuquka namapolisa ekukhuseleni amakhosikazi eli lizwe. Phaya kwela phondo laseGauteng kukho amakhosikazi aqikelelwa kuma-600 adukileyo.


They have gone missing since last year. What has your department done to find these abandoned, locked up, sold as sex slaves, neglected, mutilated or murdered women, seeing that ...


... ukwiphulo lokuba abafazi bakhuseleke.



nje okokuqala ukuthi, sinenkinga vele yokushushumbisa ngoba abantu abakuqondi kahle ukushushunjiswa. Into esetshenziswa kakhulu kulezi


zinsuku ukuthi umuntu ahambe aye emakhaya ayothi enganeni kukhona umsebenzi eGoli kanti ayiyi ukuyosebenza iyoba yisigqila socansi noma athi la eKapa ngoba kukhona abantwana abanye abatholakala belana eKapa, abanye baze baphumele ngaphandle. Ngakhoke lokho kukhombisa nanokuthi kukhona izinto zethu ezixegayo. Abanye baze batholakale sebe la ngaphakathi eNingizimu Afrika njengalaba abatholakale beselolini. Into ebalulekile ekufanele sonke siyazi ukuthi kuwumsebenzi wethu sonke siyisizwe ukubheka abantwana ikakhulukazi nabantu besifazane futhi imithetho yethu, sinethuba njengoba kusokwenziwa ukubuyekezwa ukuthi izame ukuqiniswa mayelana ngokushushunjiswa ngoba ukushushunjiswa yinto ekhona ngempela, yinto eyenzeka zonke izinsuku futhi siyazi nathi uma uhamba endleleni noma uhamba esilungwini uke ubone umama eselena phambili noma ubone ubaba eselena phambili ingane isele emuva ngoba angifuni ukukhuluma engathi ukubhekwa kwabantwana kuwumthwalo yomama kuphela nobaba banomthwala wokubheka abantwana.

Kodwa futhi uma ngabe kunento ekhona eyenzekile ethinta abantu besifazane, sike sithintane naleso sifundazwe, angenze nje isibonelo ngecala elenzeka e-Port Elizabeth, siqale sathintana nabo silokhu sikhuluma enkantolo, sikhuluma noMnyango Wezokuthuthukiswa Komphakathi, sikhuluma nabanye abazali sisebenzisa abantu abahlukahlukene abasebenza nabo. Ngakhoke nathi ngoba sisuke sifuna


ukufaka isandla sibe yingxenye yalokho okwenzekayo. Futhi okunye esikade sikucabanga ukuthi mhlawumbe uma ngabe kunecala elikhulu – wonke amacala makhulu – uma ngabe kubulewe umuntu wesifazane kumele sizame njengomnyango ukuba wumngani wenkantolo khona nathi singeke sikhulume singaphandle, sizokhuluma singaphakathi ukuze senze mhlawumbi icala libe nokuqina okukhona. Ngiyabonga.


Ms G G OLIPHANT: Deputy Chair, through you to the hon Minister: Communities and the police are at the forefront of our national efforts in the fight against gender-based violence. What measures are in place to ensure police officers treat victims of gender-based violence with dignity, that communities are spearheading a safe environment for the protection of women, and that, where there are cases of abuse, those perpetrators are identified and arrested immediately? Thank you.



abantu abaningi bahlukunyezwa ekhaya ngabantu abasondelene nabo, babulawe yibona futhi, mhlawumbe wumuntu othandiweyo wakhe noma mhlawumbe umkhulu noma umalume noma ubani kungaba wumngani kamalume, yibona laba bantu esikhathini esiningi abatholakala benze lezi


sigameko lezi. Okwesibili, umphakathi unalo ilungelo lokuhamba uye esteshini samaphoyisa uyobika. Okubalulekile ukuthi uMnyango Wezamaphoyisa usanda kwandisa iziteshi zamaphoyisa anendawo yokubika uma ngabe uyile esteshini samaphoyisa kodwa kwesinye isikhathi kuye kufike ukuthi uhlangane nomuntu ongahlangene nje nalendaba yakho ofuna ukuyiqonda ngendlela yakhe. Lapho kukhomba ukuthi uqeqesho lwethu lwabantu abaphathelene nezinto zokuhlukumezeka kwabantu besifazane kwakungafanele lume, kufanele kube yinto eqhubekayo kowowonke umuntu osebenza nabantu besifazane nomphakathi kufanele aqeqeshwe zonke izinsuku ukuthi icala elinje kumele uyiphathe kanjani ngoba izinto ziqala ukonakala lapho. Nomphakathi kufanele uma ngabe ubona ukuthi akulungi laphaya badlulele phambili bayobika phambili khona icala lingeke liwe futhi amakhosikazi sihlale siwancenga ukuthi uma ngabe nje kunecala lodlame bangagezi kwakugeza bamane bagqoke nje uhambe nje uphelezele omunye unkosikazi eyobika icala lodlame ngoba kunzima futhi. Abanye bayasaba ukubika ucala lodlame ngoba umuntu ufika abanjwe, afune ibheyili, abuye akudubule. Ngakhoke yizo zonke izinto ezenza ukubuyekezwa kubaluleke ngoba kuzofanele nathi singamakhosikazi sikufake ukuthi, uma ngabe ubulala umuntu wesifazane noma umdlwengulile, ungayitholi ibheyili, uhlale kuze kube yinkantolo ekufakazayo ukuthi awukwenzanga lokho noma ukwenzile.



Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Chair, through you to the Minister: At last, you have acknowledged there is a huge problem, yet, after two hours of talking, you have not come up with one single plan, one single programme, one single positive thing that can be used to influence women that are involved in violence.

Can you please tell us the following: Has your department taken any steps to uncover the extent of the problem, and are there any measures ... [Interjections.] Deputy Chairperson, I need protection.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just continue. You keep on raising the same thing.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: I know ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: However, members choose to behave in a manner.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: ... just wasting her time. I agree. Thank you, Chair.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: That is not the same ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, it is her question. [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: No! It is a different one!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Continue, hon member.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Chair, perhaps she should start listening. So, Minister, has your department taken any steps to uncover the extent of the problem, and are there any measures in place, either alone ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Engelbrecht, just take your seat.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order, Deputy Chair: This white madam must never disrespect me. I will never allow myself to be disrespected by a white madam. [Interjections.] I am not going to


listen to you. You are not my master. I am not going to listen to you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order, ma’am?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not going ... you heard what she said! I must start listening – listening to what? Listening to what? To a white madam? Because madam is speaking, I must listen. [Interjections.] She is wasting our time.


Ms T J MOKWELE: I will never listen to you.

Ms N P KONI: White madam!

Ms T J MOKWELE: On that, you must rest assured!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, now that everybody has listened to you, may I just remind members of this House that every member has the right to and is entitled by the Constitution
... [Interjections.] Do you see, now? I listened to you. I listened


to you very carefully, but you cannot even afford yourself a second to listen. Please allow the hon Engelbrecht to exercise her constitutional right. Can I take the point of order, hon member?

Ms N P KONI: Deputy Chair, you said on record that hon members have the right to speak in this House, right? So, number two, which you left out, is that hon members have the right to converse in this House. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, but do not drown out another member. You have the right to heckle, but you don’t have to drown out another member who is on the floor. That is the point I am raising, and it is a Rule of this House. It is in the rule book.

Ms N P KONI: Yes, but then respect must be maintained. It can’t come from one party, and then it doesn’t come from the other party, especially when it is a white madam to a revolutionary.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Alright, the point is taken. Hon Engelbrecht.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy Chairperson, I will just repeat that: Minister, has your department taken any steps to uncover the extent


of the problem, and are there any measures in place, either by the department alone or with the Department of Police, to uncover the factors driving these increases? What measures are being taken to address the situation?

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, drivers of violence include a lack of respect for women, undermining others, forced removals, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, people who move to big cities, thinking that they will find a place but who end up staying in the periphery where there is squalor and poverty and where they don’t get services, and evictions. Those are part of the drivers of violence.

As we have said, we have not looked squarely on the structural causes of violence against women. We have not looked at patriarchy. It is easy to come and sit here and say come with solutions, to say, come, I will take you to women that are working very hard. What will happen thereafter?

Changes that we must bring must be sustainable and lasting solutions. We must not bring about changes because we want to impress some people and leave them after the election. So, it is important for us to understand that patriarchy is very big. That is


why you have institutions of higher learning that have the law that was made to protect the superiors. It has gone down to protect young men who kill our kids and who continue to stay in institutions of higher learning. That was done to protect those that brought about education. Yes, we are boasting today about education and other things, but there are those that have suffered a lot under the system of education that was made to enslave us and made to make us always feel inferior, that has caused people to keep on saying one and the same thing so as to prove that you are a fool, that you can’t think.

Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] A fool!

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: So, we need to think before we talk. We don’t want to shout and shout every day, but our struggle must not only benefit the hon member. It must benefit all of us. We must not be seen as these or those women. We must be seen as women because we are also human beings. We have been saying here that there is a review of the law that was introduced by the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. We have gender- responsive budgeting and gender-responsive auditing. There is a summit on violence against women and children. We have developed frameworks that are going to change the way women have always lived.


Because we have to feel inferior, and because we have to be undermined every day, someone just stands up and says that you have said nothing – and now you have agreed. There has always been crime in this country. It started in 1652 when some people came and said they found land. They killed our people. [Interjections.] They wanted to cause the extinction of our people. They took our minerals.


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Today, we look very foolish. [Interjections.] We need to be very sensitive, and our good hearts must not be abused. We must be taken as a forgiving nation, but we haven’t forgotten. Thank you. [Applause.]


Cluster 4A

Question 225:


Chairperson, hon Members the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, checks the quarterly labour survey through Statistics SA


and the Department of Labour, which provides disaggregation of the agricultural sector into three subsectors, which comprises of field crops, horticulture and the animal product subsector. The number of people employed in agriculture sector decreases by 0,4% in the second quarter of 2018, from 847 000 persons in the first quarter of 2018 to 843 000 persons in the second quarter of 2018. Of the 3000 jobs lost in the sector, which was mainly in the horticulture sector, 4000 job opportunities were created for men, while 7000 jobs were lost by women. In total the agriculture sector comprised of 278 000 women and 565 000 men in the second quarter of 2018, compared to
285 000 women and 561 000 men in the first quarter of 2018.

Between the first quarter of 2018 and second quarter of 2018, provincial agriculture employment increased in five provinces while decreased other four provinces. Though provincial agriculture employment decreased in Western Cape, the province remained with the highest employment of 181 000 in agriculture, with a 12, 8 decreased in the second quarter compared to the first quarter. During the same period, agriculture employment in Northern Cape, Free State and North West decreased by 8,2% , 22,3% , 8% respectively.


Meanwhile agriculture employment in Limpopo, Gauteng, Mpumalanga, Eastern Cape and Kwazulu Natal, increased by 20%, 12,8%, 8,4% , 7% and 6,3% respectively between the two quarters.

In an attempt to avoid job losses, due to draught and other disasters, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in partnership with the Department of Cooperative Government and Traditional Affairs, provides relief support in the form of grants, to alleviate the impact of disaster, affecting these farmers. The drought and fire disaster relief for the 2018-19 is R543 million, that will used to support farmers affected by the latest disasters.

Ms E PRINS: Hon Chairperson, it is estimated that about 30 000 jobs will be lost in the province due to the drought and that about 22% of them are rural jobs in the province relate to agriculture. Many of these jobs are for unskilled or semi skilled workers. Which means that these workers will not easily be absorbed by the rest of economy, if they lose their jobs in the agriculture. Is the department engaging the agriculture sector to ensure a rebust skill development drive for agriculture and farm workers as along term solution. If so what are the details, if not, why not?



the practice of the Department and is democracy, that as we engage with the challenges which were imposed on us by Apartheid, for instance if you going to talk about the lack of skills, we shouldn’t remember where that comes from, who are reaping the fruits of were rude deed. When we it denied a number of those skills, it becomes imperative for this government to provide those skills. Hon Chair, on an ongoing basis, whether is Agri South Africa, AgriSA, Food SA or other sector, we do engage with the private sector to make sure that we protect those jobs.

If I may, hon members will know that we have just come back from the job summit and the investment conference hosted by hon President.
One of the sectors which have been identified, that we need to invest so that we create more jobs, not just in urban areas but even in the rural areas. It is our attempt as people of South Africa, both public and private sector to deal with those challenges in ensuring that the losses of jobs which we have just spoken about are prevented. I also said in my first intervention that we worked with Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, COGTA, to make sure that we also try to protect the jobs which are there, as we try to create new jobs. I thank you.


Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair,will you admit that a lack of long term planning and delays in releasing funding to droughts stricken provinces, directly led to the loss of jobs in the agricultal sector.Not to mention the ANC led provinces where money dispeared and never ever reached the farmers?


Chairperson, I have said that, it science that we lost jobs because of drought in those areas, I think it will be quiet herculean and assumption when we say, the jobs were lost because, the government failed to release money. I must say hon Chair that, it is very important that before we release any money and before we intervene, that should be backed by science. We should also make sure that we have proper structures for accountability as we release money, we cannot just dive into problem with money. The problems are more than money, so it is very important that ensure that we come with proper systems.

In cases where you find that money has been wrongly used, we are very clear that the law should take its course, irrespective of the source of lost of money. Thank you.

Question 217:



Chair, while there has been contraction of growth over the last two quarters of 2018, I would not categorically agree with the blanket statement that there is a retraction of the agricultural sector in response to land expropriation. We have in fact found the industry to be open to discuss how best land reform could be implemented.
Further, to point out on land expropriation, the hon Smit will know that a Joint Committee on Constitutional Review was instructed by the National Assembly and the NCOP to host public hearings into the possible review of the Constitution to allow for the expropriation without compensation. To this end, Parliament established an interministerial committee on land reform which my department participates in, as well as the advisory panel to assist the President on the process. The technical task team, of which the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries forms an integral part, supports both these structures. Thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: House Chair, unfortunately there is a lot of flip flopping around this policy and statements from the ANC government. So, can you today give clarity to South Africans today and the investment world as to what is the ANC’s latest stance on security of ownership and whether the ANC government will or will not push


forward on changing the Constitution to expropriate land without compensation?


Chairperson, I think we have said many times and the President has said on many times when it comes to this issue that we should avoid a question of cheap points political scoring. We should just avoid that. It is a very sensitive ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, order hon members!


very sensitive issue. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Faber! [Interjections.]


Chairperson, it is a very sensitive issue. The majority of the people of this country, as we are seated here, are still reaping the bitter fruits of the Land Act of 1913. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon member Faber, please do not interrupt the Minister.


still reaping the fruits of the three ships which docked in Cape Town, in 1652, when the land was forcefully taken from the people. With all that there is a process which the hon members should be aware of and I have just alluded to that process which is the parliamentary process where we are consulting with people who are balanced minded and where we are consulting with the private sector.

The hon member would also know that Agri SA is on record that itself has said that we are dealing with this matter and we are representing the agricultural community not anybody else, so that we come up with policies emanating from our consultations that are going to ensure that those injustices of about 350 years are redressed. So, there is no way ... we are going to deal with ... I think the National Assembly and the people of South Africa have decided through their representations that there is going to be land expropriation without compensation. We are looking at the modalities. There is no doubt about it. That will happen. However, what we are saying as South Africans and as the ANC government, when we dealt with even more difficult issues in this country of trying


to do away and come up with a new Constitution, we were very responsible. So people should be very, very careful not to unnecessarily put salt into the wounds that are bleeding. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!


you. [Applause.]

Ms G G OLIPHANT: Chair, you know this last question that the Minister talked about, my question is almost in there. However, let me read it so that the Minister must be at ease. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Speak to the mic, mama.

Ms G G OLIFANT: Alright. To what extent is the department engaging the agricultural sector to ensure that they are not negated to alarmist of land expropriation and that they form part of the national discourse to redress the legacy of apartheid and dispersion to our people?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, very much. Please take your seat, if you are done mama. Hon Minister.


member, as I said that there is a process that we are all privy to. The process of consultation which the Parliament committee is going through, but in all our engagements, for instance, with African Farmers Association, we are dealing with this issue to say: How do we best manage it? So that as we deal with it we do not compromise the question of food security and so on and so forth and again I would like to caution against these preconceived ideas that once you give land to black people, they are going to not to be able to be productive on that land. I think we need to caution about that.

So, it is very important and I am saying we are dealing with Agri SA which represents commercial farmers, amongst others African Farmers Association of SA, Afasa, agricultural farmers association which again is in constant negotiation with ourselves and also negotiating and talking between and amongst the farmers themselves. So there are constant interaction and negotiations, hon member. Thank you. [Applause.]

Question 228:



Chair, a study on the benefits to local communities from the sardine run in the Ugu district on the KwaZulu-Natal south coast estimated that local communities benefit from the sardine run primarily from catching the fish but also from selling their products to tourists, who are attracted to the sardine run working for fishing net manufacturers and other activities.

The financial benefit to the community has been estimated to be at least between R17 million to R18 million per annum, however, it was also estimated that only approximately 17% of the community benefitted directly financially from the sardines.

This is a natural occurrence which boosts tourism in the area and leads to indirect benefits from the tourist companies and also provides other economic benefits to the people living along those areas.

Efforts in the Kwazulu-Natal beach scene fishery, they target sardines during the KwaZulu-Natal sardine run is limited to no more than 35 rights holders. At present, there are 25 rights holders of which only three to seven have been active in recent years. Catches


in these fisheries are low compared to sardine catches made by fisheries that operate off the west and south coast of the country.


Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, Mhlonishwa Phini likaNgqongqoshe Shenge ngiyakuzwa kodwa ke umbuzo ubuqonde kakhulu ukuqaphelisa uhulumeni ukuthi kunalolu hlobo lomcimbi owenzeka laphaya e-South Coast kepha uhulumeni ubukeka eqhelile ekusizeni abantu baleya ndawo ukuze bakwazi ukuhlomula ngokwezimali.
Nasempendulweni yakho kuyacaca Shenge ukuthi uhulumeni akakasondeli. Ngakho ke mina engikucelayo nengifisa ukwazi ukuthi uhulumeni uzosondela nini, ikakhulukazi uMnyango lo wezokuDoba neminye iMinyango ukuze lo mcimbi owenzeka laphaya uma kufika abantu abaqhamuka ngaphandle kweNingizimu Afrika koZimbabwe, Tanzania, Kenya kuphikuphi bafike bawuthathe lomnotho ubuya sowupakishiwe la kithina ususemathinini. Yinto nathi uhulumeni wakithi angakwazi ukubafundisa abantu bendawo ukuthi bakwenze lokhu ukuze bahlomule ngokwezimali. Ngifisa ukukwazi ukuthi yiziphi izinhlelo enizozenza ukuze yesekeleke ngalendlela yokuthi abantu bahlomule ngokomnotho ngalendlela abantu abaqhamuka ngaphandle abahlomula ngayo.
Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.



elihloniphekile, kuyiqiniso ukuthi abantu abahlomula kakhulu kuleya ndawo leya nabahlomula kakhulu kulezi zokudoba akusibona abampisholo. Kuyiqiniso futhi ukuthi lento yokudoba uma kuza ebantwini abampisholo kuyinto entsha, ofica ukuthi ngomthetho wobandlululo sasibuyiselwa eceleni eduze nolwandle sibuke kwenzeka loko. UMnyango uyazi uyaye unikeze amalayisense. Lento yama-sardines ayenzeki njalo futhi akupheli isonto ama-sardines efikile laphaya bese eyanyuka ayahamba. Kodwa kubalulekile ukuthi abantu abahlomulayo kungabi kuphela labo abahlomulayo njalo.

Siwuhulumeni sizohlangana futhi nomphakathi ngoba phela umphakathi owaziyo kangcono ukuthi iyiphi indlela engcono yokuthi sibambisane ukuze nabo bakwazi ukuzuza kulezi zinhlanzi. Izinhlanzi zilethwa uMdali, uNkulunkulu zifike zigcwale laphaya olwandle. Akuloku kuthiwa hhayi unobuchule bokwenza inhlanzi. Cha, inhlanzi uyafika nje uyithathe. Ngiyavumelana nelungu elihloniphekile ukuthi kuningi okusafanele sikwenze ukuze sikwazi ukuqeqesha abantu ukuthi kwenzakalani uma kufika lezi zinhlanzi ezingama-sardines.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chair, between me and the Minister, we shall agree that transformation is a big challenge in this particular


sector. Be that as it may, the biggest concerning issue is the corruption that is happening in the department regarding the issuing of the fishing licences. We got it from the horse’s mouth in the Eastern Cape. We recently undertook an oversight trip there.

Officials of the department issue licences in the names of particular black-owned companies but those licences are not presented physically to the owners. Instead, the officials rent out those licences. Minister, can you please undertake in this House to investigate this matter? We shall be coming to you through the committee petitions of hon Ximbi to further engage on this matter because we believe there is a huge corruption happening on this particular issue.


member, I am happy to share with you that about nine officials from the department who have been arrested recently and are out on bail as we speak. So, the question of collusion between some members of the department and criminals when it comes to the fishing sector is something we can’t run away from. Working with the police, as we already spoke about the nine arrested people from the department, guilty of this type of corruption ... but I will also urge members of the community and hon members to help the department and the


police as soon as they know about those people. We should all work together.

It is one form of crime that won’t be fought by one department or by government alone. We need the co-operation and collaboration of everyone to deal with this scourge. We can’t allow a situation where the licences that were meant for the benefit of our people to be abused by criminals. This is outright criminality. So, I would urge hon member to work together. As the department, I am citing this example. This is not something that we are going to do, but, as you know, criminality has the ability to mutate.

I think there is commitment from our side to deal with those people who are involved in criminal activities, whether within the department or outside the department. We should work together to ensure that they are dealt with once and for all. I thank you.

Mr A S SINGH: Thank you for your answer, hon Minister. My question is: To what extent do we ensure that the sardine run, which is regarded as the greatest show on earth is changing the food security and especially in the KwaZulu-Natal province, the economic expansion and ventures for our local community?



member, I think the responsibility that we have as the department is ensuring the question of food security. As we know that when it comes to sardines and fish in general – very high in protein and very healthy, the first thing that the doctors would prescribe to us is perhaps to stop eating red meat, eat fish etc. So, it is very important for the sustenance of those communities.

As we have spoken about sardines, although there other species of fish, sardines only come at a particular time and for a very short period time. When they are there, it becomes abuzz and there are other economic activities taking place at that specific time.

It is very important that we ensure that the intended beneficiaries

– the communities who are there are also able to benefit from those sardines ensuring that there no people who aren’t supposed to benefit who ends up benefiting. As the department, we committed to ensuring people do get that sustenance either by directly getting sardines or getting sardines that they can be able to sell to the tourists and other people who are there.

It is also very important that as we look at that, we should also be looking at the question of how are they able to sell to the


retailers who are there and to process so that they can beneficiate and just don’t sell it in its raw form. So are the programmes that we are busy looking at. Thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: House Chair, in 2016, nine Chinese vessels entered South Africa’s economic exclusion zone during the sardine run. Local fishermen have to comply with stringent regulations, pay for permits and abide by the law while these foreign fleets just help themselves. How will government ensure that foreign vessels like these will not fish illegally so that the citizens of this country can benefit from our natural wealth?

Your department needs to safeguard our fish stocks from being plundered. In line with that, I would also like to know: What is the capacity with regards to vessels patrolling our waters and whether those vessels are in working condition to do exactly that? Thank you.


Chair, there is a lot of poaching as you know we have a very long coastline. As the department, we will continue our endeavours with our inspectors to ensure that we try and do that. But again, it would be very much unrealistic of us as a department to think that


working alone we can be able to safeguard the coastline, which is about 3 000 kilometers.

We do work with other law enforcement agencies to ensure that we minimise ... I am guardedly using minimise because as things stand, it is very difficult to say we are going to eliminate poaching, although that is the ultimate objective.

There are big syndicates in the sea. If these syndicates exist on land, it’s worse in the sea. They will try to continue to plunder our waters. We work with the law enforcement agencies to make sure that we prevent that. We just don’t end there as this is an international crime. We also work with other countries to ensure that we minimise this type of crime. It is a difficult one and I must say that as a country, we still need to invest a lot with regards to vessels to monitor our seas. We are even getting the technology to make sure that we look at our waters as much as we possibly can.

Hon member, I think the point is that the stock that we have in the sea is not unlimited. So, if we have foreign people coming to poach our waters, they impact on the limited stock we have. So, as we deal with the oceans economy, we are looking at ensuring that we protect


our waters and all the resources that we find in our waters, including fish.

Question 227:


Chair, it is assumed that the question was meant to refer to small- scale fishers and not small-scale farmers. Each traditional fisher that registered and that qualified against the small-scale fisher criteria was recognised as a small-scale fisher and was mobilised or is in the process of being mobilised with the assistance of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Daff, into small- scale fishing co-operatives. It is through these small-scale fishing co-operatives that recognised small-scale fishers will obtain long- term fishing rights that provide access to a number of near-shore marine resources which could be used for either commercial or for own use purposes.

Each small-scale fisher is a member of the co-operative and is a part owner of the fishing right, and has a democratic say in the way in which the fishing right is managed. It is also through the co- operatives that government in future will be able to develop and capacitate these fishers through the facilitation of various support programmes.


The nature of the support programmes to be provided will be identified once Daff has completed a gap analysis of all the support needs of these co-operatives. However, at the moment we do know for instance that they are running a business so the business schemes are very important things that need to be imparted to our communities.

Facilitation of support programmes is anticipated to be facilitated from 2019 for a period of three to five years depending on the actual needs of the co-operatives. The ultimate goal of the support programmes is to capacitate the fishers so that in future they will be able to run their businesses independently of government assistance.

The co-operatives will provide direct benefit to the recognised small-scale fishers and their families in the coastal fishing communities. However, the sector has been designed in such a way that the co-operatives will also be focal points for economic development in these coastal communities, and as such, will provide employment for additional people in the community, including women, youth and people with disabilities.


The employees of the co-operatives will also be given an opportunity to become members of the co-operatives after three years, after the right has been granted, provided that they meet the qualifying criteria of a small-scale fisher. The co-operatives will not only provide additional employment in their communities but will also ensure that marine products are landed and processed locally, which will also assist in ensuring food security in these coastal fishing communities.

Mr A S SINGH: Hon Minister, thank you for the answer. What are the economic benefits of formalising the industry into co-operatives and has the department looked at the benefits to ensuring sustainable marine resources and development of small-scale fishers?


you, hon member. Perhaps a little bit of history to this industry.

The Act which regulated the fishing industry before was the Fisheries Act. That Act is the Act that we as a democratic government inherited. That Act didn’t recognise small-scale fishers despite the fact that you have communities that have lived there for their entire lives. So, it was only with the democratic government that we came up with the Marine Living Resources Act. Again, we were


trying to regulate that and at least recognise that there are also other fisheries. But again, it was only after it was amended in 2014 that the small-scale fishers were recognised.

So, from that time onwards we had to decide how to organise these communities. Hence the programme of coming up with the co- operatives. So, the department started in different provinces with the process of identifying who are the people who are real fishers in those areas. Who are the people who qualify? So we had to go through a process of identifying those people. Once they were identified, then we needed to form them into co-operatives. I’m sure you will agree with me that it may be difficult. About 10 000 fishers must be given licences. It will be next to impossible to give licences to each and everyone. So as communities ... Obviously you will also realise that our communities have always been communal. We then said lets come up with co-operatives. So we started with that process.

Again, whenever there are resources there will always be conflicts. So again, we had to go through the process of trying to resolve those conflicts as we were going from one province to the other.


What has happened now is that the province where we have awarded the fishing rights to the co-operatives is the Northern Cape. After the Northern Cape, the next province is going to be the Eastern Cape.
Then it’s going to be KwaZulu-Natal and ... going to be the Western Cape.

It doesn’t mean that when we deal with one province there’s nothing happening in the other provinces with regard to these processes. I’m talking about the question of the issuing of fishing rights.

So, we had to come up with a legislative framework to enable us to do that. It’s something which was not there before. After a lot of investigation these co-operatives were seen as the right and optimal way of ensuring that the communities benefit from these resources which has been provided by providence.

So, we are doing that. What is it going to do? First and foremost, it’s going to give food security to those people. It’s also going to ensure that they are able to be businesspeople. As I said in my principle response to the question, there is a lot of support that we as a department have started giving to those communities, to make sure that they get maximum value from their licences.


We also know that there are things that we need to prevent because there are communities where, after you have given a licence, you find that the big companies come and take those licences for next to nothing. It’s some of those scams that we get in this country. But these are the things that ... As we evolve with this process of awarding these rights to our people for the first time — which has never happened — we must make sure that we try to mitigate the risks that are there.

Risks are always going to be there. There’s no way you can eliminate them. Again, as government we call on our communities and we call on the members of this hon House to ensure that they help us to make sure that the intended beneficiaries of these rights benefit from them so that we deal with the question of food security and we enable those communities to use that resource to generate some income so that they are able to sustain themselves in many ways. I thank you.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Minister, I come from inland. I love and enjoy my fish but you would know that in the main the economy of Mpumalanga piggybacks on the back of agriculture, be it agroprocessing, be it farming, and so on and so on.


My worry is that I see fewer small-scale farmers — especially coming from the formally disadvantaged — emerging, and emerging successfully in that part of the province.

For instance, you will know that at the new University of Mpumalanga, the main academic content there is around agricultural skills, but if you look at the output of such skills — I will not expect the university to impact now at this early stage — you will find them to be very minimal in the province, to such an extent that your main economic driver of the province does not seem to be impacting positively on the provincial economy.

For instance, if you know Ekandustria, half of the factories there are literally closed down. We don’t see any of your programmes, if the economy of Mpumalanga were to be agriculture emerging in that part of the country. What is your comment on that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. Hon Minister, you only have four minutes to reply to the supplementary question.



you, hon Chair. I take it that the hon member is talking about agriculture in general.

I would say that when interacting with MEC Shongwe for instance, one of the things that he has said is with regard to the question of agricultural colleges that he is working on so that they can be revitalised and play their important role in the province.

However, perhaps coming to ... and ... So that it’s a question of the type of training that should come from our academic institutions. I agree that, that needs to happen. It’s something. It’s work in progress. It’s a new university but I agree with you that if we must make a difference in that province there is no way we can make a difference without impacting on agriculture and the type of skills coming from there.

However, when it comes to fishing, one area that we are busy looking at is aquaculture, that is fish farming, which we can do, not necessarily in the sea. It is an area we are busy researching and we think it’s an area that will be able to impact positively in the communities, and those provinces which are inland and are not next to the sea. Thank you.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, hon Minister. In your previous answer to hon Singh you again referred to the amendment of legislation to address certain problems, but in the meantime the interim relief permit system was instituted as a temporary solution and it’s still in effect, almost 10 years after it was implemented.

We all know that South Africa’s small-scale fishers are subsistence fishermen who rely on the ocean for the survival of their communities. The current system excludes them from meaningful participation. This has a direct impact on the rate of success of small-scale fisher co-operatives.

Minister, when will you replace this cumbersome interim relief permit system with something positive to help these communities and the co-operatives?


just for the benefit of the hon members, the question of the interim relief was basically instituted to deal with the challenge that in the Act, the Act didn’t recognise the small-scale fishers. Then we came with the Marine Living Resources Act as amended in 2014 to try and make sure that we recognise the small-scale fishers.


I thought this was the process that I was sharing with the hon members and the people out there; that we have started with the Northern Cape. Then ... Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape. So we are busy with that process as it were. With our projections we think that we will have dealt with all the provinces before the end of the current financial year. Take into consideration that obviously sometimes there are objections coming from the communities, where they will say Mr X is not supposed to be in this co-operative. He drives a taxi. He’s not dependent on fishing. So there are all those things that must be taken on board.

However, we would like that by the end of this financial year those relief fisheries have been converted and we have proper small-scale fishers as part of the co-operatives, which is the model that we have adopted.

Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Minister. Currently, small-scale fishers struggle to acquire licences. These are the people that go out at 4:00am in the morning to fish in order to feed their families for survival. They live in local communities and know from experience where the fish is biting. They know that fish bite in the early hours of the morning. They are the people who know that fish don’t keep to office hours.


Will the department commit to extending the hours of inspectors to make it easier for small-scale fishers to fish, and to give more permits to small-scale fishers?


thought that the process that I have defined is meant to do that — to give licences to the small-scale fishers, the co-operatives, and so on and so forth.

So, I think that’s what we are doing. We have done it in one province and we are going somewhere else. In the meantime, the hon member is perhaps talking about the discrepancy in the hours between the small-scale fishers and the inspectors. I think we need to look into that, obviously taking into account the constraints of both human and capital resources to see what is possible. Because the hon member is then saying that perhaps the small-scale fishers are only allowed to start fishing when there is no fish, which may defeat the purpose. So I think its one area that we must look into to see how better we can ameliorate that challenge.

Question 233:


Chair, I just want to say hon member will note that the role of the


Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in marketing as envisaged by the Agricultural Marketing Policy of the Republic is to provide a range of agricultural marketing support services in order to enhance participation by all role-players across the various agriculture value chains. The department implements various marketing support programmes that are aimed at enabling producers, particularly smallholder producers to gain access to the market. The abovementioned support programmes include provision of marketing information, marketing skills development programme, good agricultural practices certification programme and market linkages programme.

With regard to marketing information the department disseminate a wide range of market information to producers and other value chain players through the marketing information system which is a web- based system that can be accessed on the internet and through cellphones. Information distributed through the system includes: daily prices for agricultural products, fresh produce and greens and weekly prices for meat standards and grading information and contact information for various markets and market agents. The marketing skills development programme is being implemented on a continuous basis in order to empower producers on how the markets operate mechanics and to provide them with an exposure to different


marketing channels. For example, fresh producers are capacitated on fresh produce marketing and are also given an opportunity to participate in the market exposure visit in order for them to meet with market management and agents.

In addition, the department also implements the sustainable agriculture guiding principles, SAGP, certification programme that is aimed at providing assurance to potential buyers that the food produced by smallholder producers is safe for human consumption.

Finally, the department also administers the preferential market access programme and issues import and export quotas and permits to traders to enable them to import and export certain agricultural products at reduced rates of duty.


Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa Holobye. Ndzi ma twile mahungu lawa mi nga hi hlamusela wona. Hikokwalaho, xiphiqo xa mina hileswaku mi hlamusela leswaku mahungu lawa ya kumeka eka inthanete na le tiwebusayiti. Xana ku ta humelela yini hi vamanana lava nga dyondzangiki naswona lava nga swi kotiki ku tirhisa inthanete emakaya? Xana va fanele ku endla yini leswaku va ta kota ku pfuneka. Ndzi hlamusela hi ndlela leyi hikuva na mina ndzi huma eka


matikoxikaya, naswona a ndzi si tshama ndzi vona nongonoko na wun’we wa swa vurimi wu yisiwa emakaya ku ya dyondzisa vamana wa hina lava nga dyondzangiki leswaku loko va tshuka va lava ku xavisa swibyariwa swa vona va tiva leswi va fanele ku endla swona.

Hikokwalaho, Holobye, hi kombela leswaku mahungu lawa mi nga hlamusela ma kota ku fikelela vamanana va le emakaya. Ndza khensa.



100% with the hon member that if that information doesn’t impact on rural women it would have missed out in a bit time. I think that as a rural boy, having grown up in the rural areas, I know very well what we are referring to. I think talking about the access to markets in general ... well, let start by the cellphones things. Hon member will agree with me that coming from the rural area as I am, the cellphones are things that you do get there though there is always a problem about connectivity, but when it comes to cellphones they are there. Data is expensive and it is something that as government we have identified because we are moving to that area where we are trying to reach as many people as possible using technology, but data is a problem. I’m sure you have heard again that we are talking about the programme as government to try and get


data down so that we allow people to access information because we think in this age and error this is the easiest way. However, in the meantime the question of markets becomes so important that we shouldn’t be thinking about markets which are far from the places that we stay at.

With the department ... and it is something that we are really championing with government that in all localities and in all villages there’s a feeding school programme. There is a hospital somewhere there. It’s very important that we aggregate the vegetable farmers and put them together. That’s what we are doing and ensuring that - first and foremost - government institutions in that area must have a responsibility to buy from those producers before we think about many other people. Small skill farmers should be able to buy from government. As government when it comes to procurement we use more than R500 billion per annum. I think that rural communities where there are hospitals, schools, prisons and all those things - first and foremost - should be able to access government markets. In other areas we have been involved again with the retain business to say you have got communities that you live within. Why don’t you buy from them? Why don’t you be part of these communities by providing a market? In other areas it is working, but it’s a work in progress. I agree with the hon member that we can’t talk of transformation when


the majority of our people who are in the rural areas are not being impacted by this type of transformation. Therefore, the rural areas are our other focal point and working with the provincial Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and other government departments. We are trying to make sure that government also buys from them.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, Minister I derived my conviction on the success of local economies throughout the value chain from the material called the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion if you were privy to that. Throughout the value chain local economies succeed on the basis of social cohesion and I needed to understand the role of your department. To what extent does your programme assist our communities to make a success of the local economy circulating around throughout the value chain? I want to say without any shadow of doubt that if it’s comprehensive social cohesion programme was to be engaging to by your department and other partners like municipalities and so on. We will see our local economies growing sustainably.


with the hon member. We are working with other departments, but in particular with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in


ensuring that as we do this, they also become part of the process. I said, for instance, if I may pick up on what we are doing with fisheries that the co-operatives are very important. We are also working with small business department to make sure that we become part of this. As I was saying that somebody must buy the products that we produce. Therefore, that talks with other departments like the Department of Education and the prisons must buy from us and so on. Therefore, you need a holistic approach.

When I was talking about co-operatives by their very nature they become the nucleus of social cohesion because people will start working together, start sharing their challenges and in that process we try to create a community-based on some economic activity based on some business. Therefore, I agree that we do have a role as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to also have the process especially with the rural communities. However, as you would agree with me that it is not us only, we can’t do as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries neither can any other department but it needs working together of many departments. But
co-operatives as you’d hear when Ministers will do talk about them - it immediately says that the small business sector has got a role to play.


Another thing the Agri-parks that we talk about, at the back of it in communities, you don’t need to export something to Durban if you are in KwaZulu-Natal or perhaps to take it to Nelspruit if you are somewhere in Nkomazi. We should be able to have economic activity within our communities. That is why we think that Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is also a very critical component of what we are trying to do. I agree that many of the problems that we are having is because of lack of this social cohesion and we think that by our intervention will also play our part in achieving that ultimate objective.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, lot of people in the rural communities in South Africa want to farm and are fully committed to farming. However, the department and the ANC-led government have systematically failed to provide enough post settlement support.
This has contributed to the 92% failure rate of land reform projects. The High Level Panel report found that poor co-ordination between the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform role confusion and a lack of capacity have been major barriers to providing support for emerging farmers.


My question is, will the department finally take fully responsibility for providing for a post settlement support for farmers that need and giving these farmers full ownership with title deeds? It is time to stop finger pointing and blame shifting between all these government departments and start sorting out your failures.


you, hon member. I think one missing thing from the hon member which is also responsible for some of the challenges that we are getting with post settlement support is the question of water rights. You find a situation where there has been restitution and you find that water rights still belong to the old owner of the farm. Therefore, you hear farmers that will say and rightfully so that how do I farm when I don’t have water and there is water running in front of me.
But, it has becoming ... it is very difficult because you find that those rights are privately owned. Therefore, we will also need to go through that process of trying to get those water rights.

What we have been doing in trying to work together with other departments, Rural Development and Land Reform and Water and Sanitation, is to make sure that when those things happen we ensure that you don’t transfer the farm without water. I think that is one


very important thing that you should have water before you can farm. It is not nuclear physics. Having said that I think along the process there are lessons that we have learned, especially when it comes to post settlement assistance to the farmers. We are dealing with that and we also know that we can’t do inside doors, we need to do it collectively as different departments.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, what steps have been put in place to ensure post settlements support is given to real beneficiaries and not cronies such as the case of the Vrede Farm?


... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You can’t join them hon, and that’s not the style.


were posing that question hon Minister on my right says that is my question, but there are lot of land restitutions that have gone to communities who are farming as we are talking now. I don’t think it is a right characterisation that farms have been given to cronies. Well, I don’t have a definition of cronies. Therefore, from where I


am we are doing everything to ensure that once the land has restituted there are proper support structures. A support like, for instance, making sure that you skill those farmers. Skilling farmers can’t happen overnight. We are busy reaping the bitter fruits of 350 years of marginalisation of our people from being skilled in what they are doing. We also need to accept that. The markets, you find that in some farms people have been able to produce, but people who must procure from them, people who have got the economic power are people who are reluctant to ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minster, sorry for disturbance. The hon member Khawula it couldn’t wait up until he finish.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I just want to find out from the Chair. Is it parliamentary for the presiding officer to call for a follow-up on a follow-up?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What are you referring to, hon Khawula?

Mr M KHAWULA: I’m referring to what is happening, Chair. The Chair has asked for a follow-up question on a follow-up question by the


same member. Now, it is the new trend and I’m trying to find out so that in future when I do it I know that I’m also correct.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Are you not referring to Question 223 where the hon member Smit was the last person to make a follow-up question? Then that was wrong, my apology, it won’t happen again. Finish off, hon Minister.


you, Chair. However, if I may continue with the ambush from the hon member, you know that there is myriad skills that you need to give to our farmers and I will also caution hon members that we shouldn’t jump to these things that they have failed as if we are waiting for our people to fail. You go through a process and if you get it wrong somewhere then they need to be given a chance. We shouldn’t then be jumping and standing on top of the mountain to say that no, what is happening? They have failed. It is a learning process and will continue doing that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon Minister. We do not have any other follow-up question. Then we will move to Question 216 asked by the hon member L B Gaehler ... [Interjections.] Question 218, eish, you see. Hon Khawula is ...


okay we are on Question 218 asked by the hon C F Smit. Oh, that is why I did ask him to make a follow-up question. I was thinking that we are on Question 218. Hon Gaehler, yours is Question 216. Your question is Question 216. Hon Gaehler is standing up. Hon Gaehler, what is the problem?

Mr L B GAEHLER: No, no, I just wanted to say Chairperson now you can agree with us that it’s too cold here. It is so cold that we are even missing the questions. Thank you.

Question 218:


South African Police Service, Saps, reported to Parliament that 62 revised from 47 murders and 564 attacks have taken place on farms and small holdings in the previous financial year. The Saps further reported that killings on farms and small holdings have declined by 45% between 2001 and 2017.            Assuming that the total number of commercial farmers is just over 30 000, the deaths reported by Saps represent 0,2% of the total productive commercial population of South Africa. Based on the number of farmers we are having, we don’t believe that there is an impact at the moment.


Furthermore, the agricultural sector – I think it is important that we see what has happened to the performance of the agricultural sector which is science – during the same period grew by 42% resulting in the total gross domestic product, GDP, of the country improving by 2,5% and agriculture grew by 32,6% quarter on quarter thereby lifting the economy by its bootstraps, that is quarter 3, Q3, and quarter 4, Q4, 2017. The linkages of farm attacks on negative economic consequences are therefore not supported by empirical evidence. However, hon Chair, one farm killing is one death too many. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries cannot condone this barbaric behaviour. It is very important that all of us work together to make sure that we stop this scourge.

In an attempt to get to the heart of the causes of farm attacks, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries had round table discussions with key stakeholders from 15 to 20 March 2018. What was the aim? The aim was to partner with all sector stakeholders regarding the safety of farms, to come up with approaches and mechanisms in dealing with farm killings, murders and stock theft, to forge partnerships and work together with all sector stakeholders to combat brutal attacks against the farming communities. Hon Chair, we hold a view that without farming there is no nation. In military


terms they say that soldiers and armies walk on their stomachs. I think it is also true that nations walk on their stomachs. It is very important to all of us that we should ensure that there is security of all the farming communities, both the farmers and their workers working together. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. Hon Khawula, a follow up question from the hon member, Smit.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I thought maybe you are getting confused again. [Laughter.] It is extremely cold in here. Anyway, hon Minister, thank you for your comprehensive response. I would like to know, in light of the TV interview President Cyril Ramaphosa had with Bloomberg, can you now confirm that the utterances of the President that there are no farm murders in South Africa are false and deceiving?


must confess to the hon member that I didn’t watch the interview.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C DIKGALE): Hon Khawula, are you still ready to give up? Hon Khawula, are you giving up on your space to make a follow up question? You didn’t? Okay.


Mr M CHETTY: Hon Minister, would you support and lobby the Minister of Police for the return of specialised rural units in the Police Department? If so, when? If not, how else would you suggest protecting these rural farming communities on violence? I am not referring to what you have just mentioned around the round table discussions. Thank you.


serve with the Minister of Police in many areas and he is deployed to deal with that and I will definitely support all his initiatives as he tries to deal with the scourge of criminality in the farms and anywhere else in the country.

Mr D L XIMBI: Minister, we must extend our deepest appreciation for the tireless of the various law enforcement agencies to waging a consistent battle against farm attacks and killings. Addressing farm killings is and must be a priority regardless of who is involved. As an ANC we agree that the security agencies need to create a secured and conducive environment for the farmers to produce and ensure food security for all our people. My question, Minister, to what extent is the government working with other agencies and the farming community to put an end to farm murders. Thank you, Chair.



member, as I said that the security of the farming community is very important for us because all the things that we have dealt with and spoken about this afternoon, if there is no security for the people who are farming there for that community, they will come to zero.
Therefore, it is for our own interest as the department, as government and as the people of South Africa we are enjoined to work with all other law enforcement agencies. Again, it is very important that we shouldn’t just deal with crime but we should be able to prevent crime.

In doing that, it becomes very important that the communities in those areas are also mobilised to make sure that there is crime prevention rather than dealing with the after effects of crime. Therefore, one would say that from our side we will leave no stone unturned in ensuring that there is security.            We will ensure that there is security of the personnel, security for everybody and even security for the implements which is being used there. Again, is to ensure that there is food security at the end of the day so that we can be able to feed our nation. If you destroy that, then you would have destroyed the whole nation. It is to the interest of the department and the ruling party, the ANC, to ensure that there is


security in the farms, in our rural areas and for everybody else who is involved in the production process.

Mr O J SEFAKO: Hon House Chairperson, the question refers to economic consequences. The black workers in farms are also experiencing these economic consequences. They are attacked by their employers. Some are killed under the pretext of mistaken of being baboons or other animals. As a result, their families loose income. My question is, what protection is given to farm workers who are being attacked and killed by their employers? I thank you.


member, I think we should call these things what they are. Some of those things are pure racist attacks because usually we find that in those instances when it comes to the workers, a worker in South Africa by and large would be a black person and a farm owner would be a white person. In those instances, at least those that I remember, you find that the victims or the people who have been attacked or having been mistaken of something of some four-legged animal have been black workers. Unfortunately the perpetrator would have been a white farmer, but having said that we do not want to racialise crime. This is criminality. That is what it is. That is


what criminality is, irrespective of the perpetrator and people should face the full might of the law.

The police should not be reluctant. We know that there are instances

– especially in the farms – where we find that there is some relationship between the farm owner and the people who are in that police station. We think that working with the Minister of Police and the department it is very important because when those cases are being investigated you ensure that the person investigating that case is not somebody who is having some preconceived ideas about the case. We don’t understand how do you mistaken a person with two legs to a four-legged animal. We are then saying that it is very important that the people who investigate those cases they investigate them properly.

Secondly, I think the sentences ... I am getting into another area

... it should be known upfront that if you are found guilty of having committed such a crime, there should be some legislated minimum sentence. We can’t have these things where people are being mistaken of four-legged animals when they have two legs but still go for two or three years. This is something we as legislators should be looking at as to how we exactly discourage these things because it is nothing else but outright racism. It has no other name.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi: Hon members, allow me to take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister Buthelezi of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for availing yourself to answer questions.

Question 216


Rural Development and Land Reform, is about our people.


Lena le le maloko ao a hlomphegilego, le swaragane le thaba ya taba ya go lokiša mo go kilego gwa senyega maloba - mo bohodu bjola le bo boletšego.


So, when you are busy with that ...


... ga se ra ema kua Kgorong ya Tlhabollo ya Dinagamagae le Tsošološo ya Naga, re tšwela pele ...



... with the instruments we have at hand and currently; on the current annual performance plan that has been submitted to Parliament, it indicates that the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights will settle 1151 land claims by the end of March 2019. These claims to be settled are informed by allocated budgets for the current financial year as well as the capacity that is provided by the state.

The Commission on Restitution of Land Rights has developed an accelerated strategy for the settlements of all outstanding claims and it is envisaged that Free State will be number one, North West will follow, and Northern Cape and I have the entire lift of other provinces that will follow. Like I said, supported by the budget at hand and the kind of support that is professional; that is supported and financially supported by government and passed through this hon House and the NA.

Just so that we remember, we have to continue on this route, working through Parliament, remembering that we have to continue on a just inequitable route. We are a constitutional democracy and we will follow our Constitution including the work that you are busy with.
Thank you.


Mr L B GAEHLER: Can you are protect me here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected hon Gaehler

Mr L B GAEHLER: Minister, thank you for answer, a very good answer. We went through this together for some time ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Get close to the mi chon Gaehler.

Mr L B GAEHLER: ... about these land claims. I think the major problem is it seems that you will accept everything that the officials give you. I am concerned that as politicians, you don’t go see what is happening down there, where the claims are. I have engaged you quite a lot on some of these claims. Some of these claims are very old. The land claim is very clear that once land is under-claimed, there is nothing the claimants can do. In other words, they can’t even develop the land but worse of all, some of those land passes have been taken over by land grabbers.

The infrastructure is deteriorated and the department has done nothing about that. Now, the longer you wait, the more damage is being done on those land claims. Now, the question would then be, if


those land passes, most of the land is taken, how are you going to reimburse those people and the same applies to the infrastructure, are you going to build a new infrastructure when you pay the claims? When you get the money to pay them? I understand that there is no money but when there is money, are you going to pay for the land that is taken illegally? Thank you.


already on another question that is on post settlement support. Just for this financial year, when the President of the Republic made a call to all of us and appointed Inter Ministerial Commission or committee, our Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, made available R500 million that would be spent before the end of 2019 on post restitution settlement support.

Moving forward, the budget is available but we had to make it available to our people, here and now. As we listened to the hon Minister of Women and the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, that we work together, we are part of this Inter Ministerial Commission, IMC. We are working very hard, like we did the other week in the KwaMkhwanazi community in the KwaZulu-Natal that post settlement support works. But it cannot work with government alone; it should and is working with government and private partnership.


Fortunately, private partnership starts at home – here at home. If you are a South African and you are complying with the Constitution of the country, it doesn’t look at colour, but it says lets solve yesterday’s problems working together. So, this is what is available at the moment and we are prepared to continue working with agriculture on food security but also making sure that there is no land that is lying fellow and un attended at this hour. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): [Interjections.] Can you please sit down? Hon Faber, I heard you saying nonsense – nonsense to who? [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, with due respect ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Can you allow me to deal with hon Faber? Hon Faber ...

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, for the Minister to say that there is no land that is not being attended to at this moment is unfortunately not 100% true. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, can you withdraw what you have said? [Interjections.]


Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I just don’t 100% agree with that. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, can you kindly leave the House? [Applause.] [Interjections.] But hon Faber, can you kindly leave the House? We are moving to the second follow-up question from the Hon Smit.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, the land claims commission have huge capacity issues persist. At the present rate of finalisation of approximately 560 claims a year, it will take 35 years for all claims to be settled, and that’s outstanding 6000 claims. Can you now state that the real constraint in land reform has actually been the lack of capacity and political will that is hampering land reform and that the Expropriation Without Compensation, EWOC is simply a diversion technique?


diversion is lack of willingness and lack of respect that has just exposed itself in this House. Lack of respect for people who has been disowned of their land and they can still be insulted in a formal sitting like this one. Even when we say we still want to remain constitutional, we can still be insulted by men in this


House. By the way, in the villages where I was born, people are still feeling - our platform is burning, but ...


... re tla tšwela pele re hlompha molao.


And let me correct that which was misquoted here. I said the President made a call on us that, do not wait. How do you take advantage of this planting season that we support those who are prepared to work with us so that food security continues but also that we expedite land reform. South Africa has become so litigious, everybody wakes up everyday to find a lawyer to slow down ...


... go fa batho ba baso seo ba se tšeetšwego, le ge e be e se gabonolo.


That’s why they even tried ...



... go šomiša magoši, le ge e le gore magoši a ile a a gana go šoma le bona. Re tla tšwela pele re hlompha molao, feela, re kgopela gore le tšweleng pele le hlompha batho ba rena ka gobane ka mo ntle ka mo, ga go monate le ge ba tšwela pele ba hlompha molao.


I have been in international relations, I know it is okay to think globally and act locally. So, I thank you Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, before I come to the third follow up question from hon the House Chair, Dikgale, let me appeal to all of you; we know that this issue of land is a very emotive issue but let us allow the process and when it is member asking, let listen and when it’s the Minister responding, lets listen. Let us not compromise the decorum of the House.


Moh M C Dikgale: Modulasetulo ... [Tsenoganong.] ... banabešo nke le mpheng sebaka; ke sebaka sa ka se.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Dikgale, sorry let me take hon Smit. Why are you standing hon Smit?


Mr C F B SMIT: My apologies hon Dikgale. Hon House Chair, the two hon members that are behaving quite unhonourably within the House, called me directly by name and said I am thief. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele and hon Koni, refrain from what you are doing. I have just appealed to all the members of the NCOP that we are dealing with a very serious motive issue. Let us not compromise the decorum of the House.

Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, so it’s okay for Smit to say we are unhonourable members of this Parliament? No! [Interjections.] It means we are.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Koni

Ms N P KONI: Yes Chair

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is why I said I am appealing to all members ... [Interjections.]

Ms N P KONI: Mention his name; call him to order like you did with me and hon Mokwele


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Smit, hon Koni, hon Mokwele, and all members of the NCOP, we are dealing with a very important matter, South Africans are watching, it’s a motive matter
– the issue of land. Let us not compromise the decorum. Hon Koni, take your seat. I am not going to take you now, let us allow hon Dikgale. [Interjections.] I have named him. Hon Koni – Hon Dikgale you are protected.


Moh M C Dikgale: Re a leboga, Modulasetulo. Ke dumela gore se se dirilwego ke mohl Faber a ka se sa se bušeletša - go telela basadi ka tsela yela. Re leboga ge o mo ntšheditše ka ntle. Tona, ke na le potšišo go mo le bego le leka go araba gona - kudukudu ke lebantšhitše mo go dikgopelo tša go bušetšwa naga tše di fetago
6 000. Ke kwele le bolela ka diprofense le re le ya go thoma Freistata le fetele pele, efela ga se ka kwa le bala Limpopo mo ke tšwago gona.

Se se dirago gore ke botšiše potšišo ye ke gore bakgekolo le bakgalabje ba kopana mošate gantši ka Lamorena le lengwe le le lengwe go lebelela gore dinaga tšela ba di kleimilego, di tla boela go bona neng. Ge le be le efa dikarabo, ga se le bolele gore le ya go thoma neng, la fetša neng. Se sengwe gape ke gore kgoro ya lena e


na le baemedi diprofenseng kamoka, ke ka lebaka la eng Limpopo go se bjalo? Le reng le sa romele baemedi diprofenseng kamoka ka nako ye tee, ka gobane bakgekolo le bakgalabje ba ba a hlokofala, ba tlogela naga yela ya gabobona. Ke a leboga.


ke lekile go bontšha gore taba yela ya go lokiša pušetšo ya naga go beng ba yona - go ngwaga wo wa ditšhelete, re rile re tla feleletša
1 151    ya dikleime ka ba ka re diprofense tšeo di tla bego di feleletša dikgopelo tše di tla latelelana. Ya mathomo e tla ba Freistata, ya latelwa ke tše dingwe tše pedi diprofense tšeo ke di badilego, Gauteng e lego ye nngwe ya tšona. E re ke re tše dingwe tše di tlilego go latela ka morago ga mo ke Kapa Bodikela, Leboa Bodikela le Kapa Leboa. Di tla latelwa ke Kapa Bohlabela, le Gauteng yeo e lego legorong le tee le KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo le Mpumalanga. Lebaka ke gore dikleimi tša bona ke tše dintši. Re gopole gore Kapa Leboa ke e badile kua mathomong. Ke rile ba tlile go fetša pele ka yona le Freistata ka gobane dikleime tša bona ga se tše dintši ... e re ke o tlogele mogolo wa ka. Limpopo le gona mo palong, ke le badile, dikleime tša lona di godingwanyana. Re latela tleime go ya ka magwalo a gona, ka semolao. Limpopo e gona mo palong ye, e na le Mpumalanga le KwaZulu-Natal. Ke ka lebaka la gore taba ye ya dikgopelo tša go bušetša naga, ga se papadi. Go na le moo batho ba


ba sa tshepego, ba rego gore be le bohlatse bja gore go bolokilwe bomang, go tlišwe sethifikeithi sa semmušo sa lehu. O tla tšea kae sethifikeithi mola o bolela ka bohlatse gore makgolo wa gago o bolokilwe mo.


So this is just one but, one of the painful exercises that we go through with land claims. But we are also quite awake to the work that the Constitutional Review Committee, CRS is busy with. While we are working with the Inter-Ministerial Committee but we want a just an equitable outcome making sure that we don’t lose also on an important aspect, I repeat, food and security. It’s very important that before we think of anything else also, we think of protecting our own. I thank you Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you hon Minister. Hon Minister, we now come to question 221 asked by hon Mlambo. Sorry Minister, let me take hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I am rising on a point of privilege to say, at least as EFF, we lead and others follows. Last week, he was fighting you that you are entertaining us, look where he is now. We have shown him that he can still be there as a member and still


cough and participate. We are not going asking you to do anything; we are just showing that at least we are leading.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, we are dealing with a very serious matter and it’s up to us to decide whether we want to degenerate and compromise the decorum. I will do ... [Interjections.] Yes! Hon Minister, we are now dealing with the question asked by hon Mlambo, question 221.

Question 221


in terms of the proactive land acquisition strategy and straight land release disposal policy, women and youth have been identified as special categories for land allocation by the department. The department has further acquired 2 million hectares of land through its proactive land acquisition strategy for land reform purposes, benefiting over 14 000 of or people and 4 100 – we are not happy with this number – but 4 100 of those are women and more than 2 800 of young people.

It’s not easy to just scoop out land, it must come out with all the important elements that the Deputy Minister responsible with agriculture had referred to like skilling and reskilling.


Landownership comes with responsibility, but when you talk about security at the point of farming, while our people are being skilled, there must be onlends like ...


... basadi bao ke ba bonego kua Freistata ba lema sepinatšhe; ba lema le dimela tše dingwe. Ba hlokometše tikologo ya bona; ba etile pele polasa yeo ka bobona, ebile ke bona beng ba yona.


So, as we move on, we must know that farming and working on land comes with responsibility. Also, we should not be ashamed that we cannot remain farmhands. Therefore, we need to be skilled so that we can be responsible farm owners and be able to work the land. We have the capacity and indigenous knowledge systems of working the land.

We just need more skilling resources so that we are not just good at being farmhands, but we are able to stand tall as farm owners day and night. When we talk about protection, it mustn’t be viewed that protection has got colour. Now that anyone is allowed to be a farm owner, all the people need same protection and same skilling.
Research has to enhance indigenous knowledge systems. I thank you, Chair.


Mr E M MLAMBO: Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister for giving us a comprehensive answer. Minister, as you know that women used to have serious problems in terms of land acquisition, their ability to own, inherit and control land and property is vital for their ability to access resources and participate in the economy.

What programmes are in place to ensure that the rights of women to own land, which is enshrined in the plethora of legislative documents including the Constitution, is translated into specific programmes with workable timeframes to ensure the transfer of land to women? I thank you.


applaud the fact that there is no law in South Africa that says women cannot inherit land; it is just the practice of patriarchy that needs to come to an end. So, we need both men and women, black and white, to remember that denying women to own land is not in our Constitution.

What we did in our department was to call for women’s dialogue which was attended by 1000 women from all over the country beginning of September. The question is: Where are we now going from here? We will continue to have dialogues in all the provinces before the end


of this year, in order for women to be encouraged to stand tall and for them to remember that it is not the Constitution that stops them to be landowners.

Earlier on, the Minister of Women said that, it’s almost like it’s legal that if you don’t have a boy child, you cannot inherit land. It is not like that; it is a practice that we have inherited from patriarchy, and that must stop. Part of our discussion on land dialogue was that women should be empowered to know that all they need is skills, and because of the indigenous knowledge they have. The Constitution of South Africa does not stop them from owning land.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Thank you, Minister. Let me remind you, Minister, and hon Koni that you two cannot ask each other questions, you have to do that via the presiding officer.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Is it permissible for members to take videos inside the House? I am asking this because I am worried that someone took a video while the House was sitting and posted it on social media to insult me. Now, the very same person is busy taking videos again.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, let me make a ruling. Please take a seat so I can make a ruling.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Must I sit down?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon members, it’s not permissible during the sitting of the House to take a video, even to take picture. So, anything in relation to that it’s against the rules of the House. Therefore, let’s refrain from doing that!

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, it’s a follow-up question. ...

[Interjections.] No, no, no! I’m on the floor now! Chair, here is a follow-up question. ... [Interjections.] No, no, no, Mokwele, we cannot be held ransom by you, man! Stop what you are doing, please!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Magwebu, let me deal with hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): I’ve made a ruling.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, I know!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Yes, let us not get to that issue now.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair, with due respect, may I address you? The reason why I’m saying this, it’s because I didn’t want to bring this matter into the House. The video that hon Hattingh has circulated
... [Interjections.] Can you allow me to finish so that you can hear what I want to say? We are receiving death threats, especially me, because of what hon Hattingh did.

So, I’m afraid that whatever that he is taking on the video now, he is going to use it again, and those people that have been attacking us are still going to attack us. So, may you please rule that hon Hattingh must delete that video because it’s a serious matter.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, can you take your seat so I can deal with this issue! Hon members, there was an issue hat happened last week about the conduct of hon Mokwele which made her to be requested to leave the House and there was a ruling about that matter and the issue has been referred to the Chairperson to deal with it.

Now, this issue is in relation with the very same issue which I don’t want to get to its details. It’s not on. Let us then allow the supplementary questions to continue. Anything whether it’s in line with this issue like the issue of threats and the issue of videos, I am not taking it lightly. There is an issue that happened last week and you dealt with it to impeach me. Hon Magwebu, you are the next to do a follow-up question.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: Through you Chairperson, hon Minister, we have a difficulty here, or should I say a challenge because, nationally, statistics indicates that on land distribution beneficiaries women are sitting at a near 23%. Therefore, this means that there is a failure to empower women on land distribution.

Now having said that, my question is: What is it that you will do as you are now busy with land distribution programme, to ensure that


women are prioritised as you endeavour to meet targets, so that this challenge is addressed expeditiously?  Thank you.


support starts with women my age and younger, and who were born from parents who were dispossessed of their land. So, earlier on I said that we are doing land dialogues so that the 50/50 beneficiation of women should not exclude landownership because it’s not in our Constitution. So, I agree that acceleration of landownership should include women and that patriarchy must get out of our way to realise this.


Le wena ngwanaka, e be o theeleditše. O se ke wa ema tseleng ya rena ge re re basadi ...


... need not only work the land, but they must also own it.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, based on the stats that hon Makwebu has just mentioned that 23% of the restitution constitute women nationally, what steps has the department put in place to protect


section 25(6) of the Constitution’s rights of women in communal areas?


already responded to that question.


Yoo o tšwa Limpopo le nna ... [Tsenoganong.] ... yena yoo a bolelago mo. O tseba gabotsebotse gore ke eng tšeo di re šitišago, a se ke a tla ka mo a bala potšišo yeo ba mo ngwaletšego yona kua gae a tšwago. O swanetše a tsebe gore ...


Empowerment of women includes empowerment of women in landownership, I repeat.

Question 220:


no, however the department will consider successful farmers under the proactive land acquisition for the disposal of the land in full title and have also introduced new land acquisition initiative such as, financial partnership for accelerated and sustainable land


reform emanating from Operation Phakisa. That includes making sure that women and young people access the land equally. I thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, if we consider the David Ragasi’s case of KwaTewu, these are people who have been waiting for many years for title deeds. They are entitled to and have been promised by your government. Your department has 20, 7 million hectares of land. When will you give this land back to the people who have been promised it?



la gaSmit, nkabe o thomile ka gore ...


... there is 77% of land that is in private hands, that needs to be accessed ...


... yeo e sego mo matsogong a batho ba baso ...



...access to 77%, land access from...


... bokoko ba gago, yeo o abetšwego ke bona.


So title deeds, partnership between land owned, whatever percentage that the government owns through state-owned enterprises. I have said earlier on that the President has formed an Inter-Ministerial Committee where there will be a consideration for some strategically located pieces of land that can be part of this land acquisition by those people who have been dispossessed of their land. I want you to also remember that, 77% of the land today needs to be accessed so that our people move with that which is expected of them. The 13% of land is in the hands of the chiefs and is still what we have. Out of the R40 billion or more that government had spent on the willing buyer, willing seller no more willing seller as we manage to only get not more than 5%. That is why we are talking about 77% plus fill, so it is very nice hon Smit to come here and be choosy about...



... potšišo yeo ke tlilego go e botšiša, yeo ke ratago go e botšiša goba yeo ke sa swanelago go e botšiša.


Land must be accessible to all who live in it, South Africans. Thank you.


Moh N P KONI: Modulasetulo, potso e Tona a fetsang go e araba, ke potso e e tswang ko mothong yo eleng gore le ene, o bone dituelo mo mafatsheng a a utswitseng. Jaanong, go botsa potso eo ga gagwe, e ne ele tshenyo ya nako fela mo letsatsing la gompieno. Jaanong, se nna ke tlileng go se bua, ga ese potso Mme, ke polelo, gore ...


...the land must be expropriated without compensation and the state must be the custodian. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That was not a question hon member.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order that no one can make a statement without asking a question.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I am dealing with that.

Question 229:


Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is not aware of the above mentioned project. However, provinces are allowed to experiment in a legal manner on projects that will liberate our people. Should you know of other project that’s being experimented in any corner of the country please let us know. We will assess it and we will respond adequately

Mr M KHAWULA: Let me start by making a correction hon Chairperson.. The question ends by saying: “how does the government plan to utilise infrastructure that has already been built in such an area from now on”? Those are not my words Chairperson, I did not write that. When the question office adjusts our words, they have this tendency of saying things that we’re not saying. “In such an area” are not my words. Chief Whip this thing must not happen because that phrase there is demeaning. And now it’s as if Khawula was writing that to demean the area that we’re talking about here. They must be extremely careful Chair. Let me now get to my next follow up.


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me also assist you to get to the next follow up. There is an appropriate forum to deal with this.

Mr M KHAWULA: No, I don’t need you assistance here now Chairperson. I was stating my case disowning what somebody wrote on my behalf which I did not write. I’m disowning what I don’t know.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat so that we deal with it thoroughly?

Mr M KHAWULA: I’m not asking you to deal with it thoroughly

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Hon Khawula, what do we expect the minister to deal with if you’re saying you’re correcting the question?

Mr M KHAWULA: That was directed to the Chair not the Minister. Now I’m coming to the Minister. Hon Minister, thank you very much for your response. That is poverty eradication in Kwa-Zulu Natal that I’d request the department to do follow up on because it was meant to be a very good project and a lot of money was spent on it. Cows were bought and got stolen, tractors were bought and they’ve disappeared. A lot of things, infrastructure and implements that


were bought by the departments, different departments that have disappeared now. But what is important is that government needs to revive the project. First, do a follow up on the project and revive the project so that the original idea of benefiting the people of the area is achieved. That’s all I’m asking from the department.


follow ups and our acting Director General (DG) along with all Deputy Director Generals (DDG) have spent the entire weekend till last night meeting with all leaders, traditional leaders from all corners of the country. Representatives and all those who have interested in ensuring that recap on land works because we do not have time.


Ke ile ka re mankgapela ka re ge le na le ditšhišinyo tšeo le di nyakago le di tlišeng ka pele re lokiše gore batho ba rena ba se ke ba bolawa ke tlala mo nageng ya rena.


This is a land ...



... ya bomakgolo ba rena.


This is where our people must eat and drink. This is where our people must produce for themselves and export the surplus.


... mola ba khoše, ba iphepile ...


Because they know how, but land ownership should be that they are part of and it should not happen tomorrow. It should happen today, not next year, not any other time. Let’s empower our people to take future of their country. The youth that is coming up, some are educated and some need up skilling. We need to be ready… we need to be battle ready because the entire Africa world is looking at this country and what we do and what we achieve.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I really do agree with the last statement that you did minister. I want to refer you to what you’ve previously said when the issue was raised with hon Fubbs. You said there is not a single piece of land in this country that we don’t attend to. When we said we don’t believe that, that created a situation but now in


your answer to hon Khawula you said that your department is not aware of this. Now if that land and that project was given to people, everything was stolen or maybe misappropriated like the Vrede Farm and your department does not know, it is clear that the systems of reporting are not working. These are systems of helping; supporting and developing upcoming farmers are not working. Now I would like to know, if the DDGs have to meet now overnight with leaders and traditional leaders, what is the support network and what are the systems that are in place from the national government to the provincial government? These things are put in place to ensure that things like this are not happening. It’s clear that out of the answers you gave this house that it’s not working.



gore mme yoo o be a le kae ge monna yola a rogana, feela a re mo tlogeleng ka gore o gopola basadi ge go le monate. Re na le bahlankedi ba mmušo bao ba šomago kantorong ya rena ya bosetšhaba


... in our national office , in the regions and in the districts who work with provinces, who are full time in the provinces and work


with provincial governments. And if I say they have just met again this weekend till Monday, they were not meeting for the first time. They meet regularly. We will meet with them again on Friday. We meet to take our people forward. Don’t say people must work and not meet.


O tsoga fela ge o nyaka go botšiša gore naa bahlankedi ba mmušo ba šoma bjang eupša o re o Leloko la Palamente. Ge maloko a mangwe a Palamente a rogana ka mo Palamenteng, o lebetše le gore o gona ka mo. Bahlankedi ba rena ba mmušo ba tlile go kopana, ebile ba ka se tsoge ba feditše go kopana. Ba sa tlile go kopana le baetapele ba bona gore ba tsebe gore ba tšwela pele bjang ka ge le rena re dula re ba botšiša dipotšišo bošego le mosegare gore ba tla kae le gore go direga eng.


We will continue to communicate with our officials and governments. That is continuous process of governance.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr.A J Nyambi): Thank you hon Minister. Hon Labuschgne why are you standing?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I’m standing on a point of order Chair.


HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): What’s your point of order?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: My point of order Chair is that I asked the Minster why does she as the Minister know about the project and she did not answer the question. She referred back to “the officials are not working” that’s not what I’ve said.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi):Hon Labuschagne, that is not a point of order. Hon Minister, I don’t need assistance! Hon Minister we now come to question 222 asked by hon Ncitha but hon Sefako will be standing in for hon Ncitha. Hon Minister…

Question 222:


Chairperson, yes, the applicable government policy on leasing of land and disposal of state land, provides for leases within options to purchase. This has been the policy of government since 2013.

The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform will therefore take steps to transfer land to black emerging farmers once such farmers exercise their options to purchase the land and no longer just lease. We will continue leasing, because we will continue supporting black farmers.



Go lema ga go sa ya ka mmala matšatši a, go na le batho ba baso bao ba tiišitšego ka maatla - bao ba lemago go re go bonale, ebile ba fepa setšhaba ...


... and they will get our support.

Mr O J SEFAKO: Hon House Chairperson, in traditional economics, land is more than just a piece of an earth. It is a factor of production, survival and access to economic opportunities. This means in its absence, no production will be possible and therefore no serious wealth accumulation can take place.

In South Africa, land ownership is linked to colonial and apartheid conquest and dispossessions of land previously owned by the black Africans. This resulted in white minority owning the lion shares of the land. What programmes are in place to expedite the redistributions of land process to black farmers who are not only successful, but also have mass scale economic impact?



Fa ke feleletsa ngangisano eno, ke rata go go akgola, Tona, gonne maloba ke bone o abela diCPA dikabo kwa Bela-Bela, gape o ile wa etela karolo nngwe e e itlhomileng kwa pele moAforikaborwa ... [Tsenoganong.] Ke a leboga.


Chairperson, we have to say we agree with you that land ownership is not just about land ownership. Land is an economic asset.


Le rena tše di diragalago kua Bela-Bela di a re kgahla.


That is why we support every other programme in every other province, that is as progressive as what is happening in Bela-Bela


Ge re fihla re humana ba dira dilo tše di botse, ge re tloga re a di oketša ...


... because this is what we do to give dignity back to our people. Dignity ...


... ke seriti sa gore batho ba baso le bona ba kgone go itirela ge ba humane sebaka, ebile ba humane le naga ya bona.


So, the Communal Property Associations, CPA and the trusts if they have challenges we support them. We know that some are successful, some still need support and those who need support will find us spending ...


Go ba thuša gore ba kgone go tšwela pele, bjalo ka Lekgotla la Beng ba Lefelo la Seboka, kua Ga-Mabula. Ke a leboga.

Mr M M CHABANGU: House Chairperson, title deeds means little without support and if our government doesn’t support the farmers it gives land to, they will fail. This is true across the world, as all agricultural in the world is subsidised and given support by the government, how is your department working with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries going to provide emerging black farmers with seeds, skills and other input material needed like tractors? Thank you.



botšišitšwego gonabjale ke šetše ke gateletše peleng gore ...


... post settlement support is our focus at the moment. Within this financial year’s Budget ...


... re sa swere R500 million ya bao re rilego ge re ba lebelela mo, ra hwetša e le gore ka nnete ba a kgodiša, ebile ba ikemišeditše gore mašeleng a ba tla a šomiša go dira dilo kamoka tše di boletšwego. E tla reka diterekere, e tla ... kudu mo sehleng se sa go lema. Pula e thomile go na.


In all provinces, it must be dispersed working together with agriculture. This is just from us, supporting agriculture and that is true just on post settlement support. On redistribution, we still have another R300 million. So, in total working together with Land Bank, we have called on them with agriculture that let us do rand for rand, so that there must never be particularly ...


... motho yo moso yo a rego ge a nyaka go lema, o hwetše a gakanegile. Ge re mo file seripa sa naga sa go dula re re ke mo o swanetšego go iketla gona - ge a nyaka go lema, ga se a swanelwa ke go ikhwetša a ponapona. Ba bjalo ba tla hwetša thušo go tšwa go rena


... from what we had confirmed which was a confirmation of what the President has said and the Minister of Finance, so, to all our people ...


... re re pula e a na. Mo e nago gona, a re e šaleng morago. A re lemeng, le tla hwetša mmušo o eme ka maoto gore o le thuše. Re kgopela le borakgwebo ba le ba mmala wo mongwe ba se ke ba phutha matsogo. A re šomišaneng mmogo ...


... to strengthen this government and business partnership. This is the planting season. Let’s all work together. There must never be a South African who said I have benefited from the government land scheme, but now I don’t know where to go because ...


... ga ke tsebe gore ke ya go lema ka eng. Nna mo ke fetilego gona ge ba re terekere ke yeo e tsene - e fihlile nageng ye itseng, go na le motho yo a rego ke yena moabatirelo, ke a mmotšiša gore bjale ka gore yena ke ...


... service provider - now that he has delivered the tractor, he should get the hell out of the way, and allow ...


... batho ba, re bone gore ge o tsamaile, ba tlile go šala ba itemela bjang. Nna ke le Maite ke godišitšwe ke mokgekolo yo mongwe kua Ga-Sekhukhune. O be a namela godimo ga terekere, a lema. O be a sa emele go tla go lemelwa ke banna. Banna le basadi, terekere ga e lome, re swanetše re leme ka yona kamoka.


Mr L V MAGWEBU: House Chairperson, in the Eastern Cape, I am sure you are familiar with the Gwaqhu CPA. It has been more than twenty years now that the government has failed to register the Gwaqhu CPA and I will help you to remember this.


The Gwaqhu CPA is comprised of 88 farms and 1500 members. This CPA or the Gwaqhu farms are situated or located in the Queenstown area, Chris Hani District Municipality. They have been struggling to get this CPA registered and they have made all the endeavours with the department, but the department has failed them. Now, ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele! Hon Koni! Hon Mokwele, the respect that you must give to hon Magwebu is the one that must be given to you when you are asking question. Let’s allow him to ask the Minister a question.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: House Chairperson, I desperately need your protection, lest I do something here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, sorry. Hon Magwebu, sorry! Hon members, the officer presiding may order a member to leave the chamber immediately for the remainder of the day sitting if the officer presiding is of the opinion that the member conduct is grossly disorderly. So, hon Koni and hon Mokwele, can you leave the House? Hon Magwebu, can you take your seat? I am still finishing with them. Hon Chabangu, why are you standing?


Mr M M CHABANGU: I am standing on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): What is your point of order?

Mr M M CHABANGU: My point of order is that, hon Magwebu threatened the three ladies, while they were hackling him there by taking the jacket and the tie and everything. As you can, he is now half naked. [Laughter.] Please, can you come to our rescue and call him to order? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Chabungu, you know that is not a point order and there is nothing that he has done to threaten anybody.

Mr L V MAGWEBU: House Chairperson, as I was saying before I was rudely interrupted by the EFF, the title deeds can’t be issued as the CPA has not been registered. Now, today before this House, I really want to plead with you if can commit that you will follow up this matter and assist and get this title deeds registered and that the CPA be registered, so that this black farmers can be able to till the land and have ownership that they can use as collateral to inject capital into their, business because as it is now they are


sitting there tilling the land as tenants of the state and not owners of the land as they should be. Thank you, Chairperson.



Beng ba Lefelo la Seboka le swana le ditrasete. E ka ba ka lebaka la Lekgotla la Beng ba Lefelo la Seboka;e ka ba ba hweditše mangwalo a semolao a mong wa lefelo goba ba se ba a hwetša - ge ba kwane bona ka noši gore bjale ba ...


... ready to take over the land. Everywhere we go, we issue title deeds. You can bring the details that you are talking about, but there is no community that has applied for title deeds for twenty years. You can bring it on and give it to us now and let’s see what would have happened and details will be different from what you saying by Friday morning.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have decided to invoke section 37(1)(c)but now I am go straight to section 38(1). I am ordering the members to leave the precinct of Parliament until the Chairperson has dealt with the issue. I have realised that what we have done, now you want to disrupt the House being in the


gallery. So, can you leave the precinct of Parliament? Can we have people to assist to have them leaving the precinct of Parliament? No, I don’t want when we starting to be disrupted, so let’s have them getting out of the precinct of Parliament.

Question 219:


Recapitalisation and Development Programme for our new farmers is what we do for a living, including support in the form of mentoring, training and provision of farming equipments. So, that is what we will continue doing.

Smit needs to come to the party, because he is also a farmer. During the day, he is a Member of Parliament. Hon Smith, come to the party


... o tle o kwe gore mo go dulago batho go monate bjang ...


... as a farmer, not as hon member, because the recapitalisation of black farmers is what is happening everyday now. So, he can join us and we will do better.


Land is an economic asset and agriculture and farming do not only happen in space because there is modern technology. It must start here on the ground where real people live, so that when we say that we are supporting our farmers, we mean it in real life.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, let me deal with hon Labuschagne.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: The Minister referred to hon Smit as Smit, but hon Smit did not ask the question, hon Magwebu asked the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you are out of order. We are dealing with Question 219 asked by hon Smit. The hon Minister is responding to hon Smit. So, you are out of order.



... ke arabile potšišo. Ke a nagana gore ka ye nako batho ba rena ba bolawa ke tlala, ebile ba swerwe le ke tlala ya naga - ba nyaka mobu o bušetšwa matsogong a bona. Nka se arabe potšišo ya gago ya ditoro, ke na le karabo ya potšišo ya ditiragalo tša lehono ka


lebaka la gore batho ba rena ba swerwe ke tlala, ebile ba a tseba gore go lema ke eng. Batho ba rena ba nyaka lefase la bona gore ba kgone go itemela, ba iphepele bana. Ke se ke se tletšego mo lehono. Ke a leboga.


Mr C F B SMIT: House Chair, all the waffling to try and avoid the 92% failure in land reform projects is actually mind-boggling. Let me move to my question. In light of both previous President Motlanthe and President Mbeki’s public statements, the ANC government failed in land reform. Today, you have tried to divert attention away from your failure. You want to blame the Constitution and amend it to allow for expropriation without compensation. Will you contest your own comrades and respectable Presidents’ words and say that they are lying or will you admit that your government and department had failed miserably in land reform? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Before I allow the hon Minister to speak, ... Hon Mateme, I don’t know whether it is a point of order or your question.

Dr H E MATEME: House Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to say that a Minister is waffling?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Repeat what you said.

Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, let me say exactly what I said, because I don’t like my words to be translated by other members. I said: “All the waffling today to avoid the 92% failure in land reform projects is very concerning.”



... ke tla leka go efoga go rumulwa, ge e le gore batho ba rena ba re re potlake ka gore kgopolo ya moreki yo a dumelago le morekiši yo a dumelago ga se e šome, ke a tlarea. Ke gore re swanetše re dumele batho ba rena ba emele selo seo se ka se tsogeng se kgonegile. Le ge batho ba rena ba re fegollang tše borala, mampša re lapa melala - ge e le gore tšeo ke go tlarea, gona a re tlogeleng Komiti ya Tekolo ya Molaotheo e feleletšeng mošomo wa yona ka gore Smit o a tseba gore komiti yeo e nyaka re dira eng. Nna dipotšišo tšeo ke bego ke di fetola lehono ke tša gore ...


... while waiting for the outcome of that parliamentary process ...



... re dira eng? Ga re a swanela go phutha matsogo ra emela gore tshepedišo yeo e fihle bofelong mola batho bona ba eme. Ke fetša ka gore batho ba rena ba re fegollang tše borala, mampša re lapa melala, ka gobane ba ka se dule ba sa je selo, ba emetše ge mohl Smit a feleletša tshepedišo yeo ya Palamente. Re ka se tsoge re jelwe ke dihlong tša go emelela ra thuša batho ba rena.


I am answering the question, not yours. Chairperson, you said that I must respond looking at you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Smit, refrain from what you are doing. [Interjections.] No, the Minister is answering the question and you are interjecting. [Interjections.] No, you cannot do that.



ke gore ...



... we are supporting the recapitalisation of farmers, particularly black farmers who got their land from government.


Efela re ka se ke ra thibela tshepedišo ya Palamente yeo e hlalosago gore re direng ka karolo ya 25 ya Molaotheo. Ye ke taba yeo Palamente e lebanego le yona, e sego kgoro. Ga se taba ya kgoro, ke taba ya Molaotheo wa Afrika-Borwa. Ka ge re le badudi ba Afrika- Borwa ba go hlompha molao, re gana go ferehlwa ke batho bao ba ratago ditshele - bao ba sa nyakego go tseba gore batho ba tla tsoga ba eja eng gosasa. Re tlile go latela molao; re tlile go tšwela pele re thekga bao ba hlokago thekgo ya kgoro, but ...


... we will never take the place of Parliament. We are dealing with some elements of section 25 of the Constitution.


Ebile re ka se lweše ke leloko leo le yago kua ntle la boa le bolela se se rilego. Ke a leboga.

Mr E MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, Minister, when we are dealing with the fundamental injustices of apartheid, don’t you find that our


colleagues, the hon Members of Parliament belonging to the Democratic Alliance would use whatever questions they have to divert us from implementing those things that are serving the national interests of our country and doing very little in the provinces where they are the biggest minority, in order to assist our country in dealing with these challenges?

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, our Rules do not allow questions of opinion of a party-political nature. So, this one really cannot stand. This is according to our Rules.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let us leave it to the Minister. It is like when a person is asking a question that is not related to the original question, you leave it to the Minister to comment or not.



go dula ka se arabe potšišo ye ka gobane mo go dulago batho bao ke nyantšego letswele go bona ke taba ya tšhoganetšo. Ke kgale ba eme; ba nyaka gore go be le mešomo; ba nyaka re tloša kgatelelo ya gararo; ba rata ge re ka bušetša lefase matsogo a bao le ba lebanego ka khutšo.



So, hon members, yes, our people are still patient. They still believe that South Africans can work together to resolve this. That is why it was not even an issue that was insurmountable at the investment conference that the President presided over. People of the world also believe that South Africans can overcome this one.
So, we will allow no one to defocus us. We will find a South African solution to this challenge that we are facing. Our people cannot continue to be spectators. They want to become participants in this mile of their freedom, 24 years after 1994.

If we love Albertina Sisulu, if we love Nelson Mandela, we must not love them for six hours and then look the other way. Then we think we can come back from somewhere and find solutions because we said that we love Mandela. If we love Mandela, let us finish the job. Let us do that which he said we will do, working together. This is not a joke; this is real and that is why we refuse to be defocused. Thank you.

Ms M C DIKGALE: Chairperson, I want to stand and address the precedence of the presiding officer in the House against what hon Khawula was doing today. Rule 35 – whenever the ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, no. Hon Digale, can you take your seat?

Ms M C DIKGALE: Can you listen to me?


Ms M C DIKGALE: As I take my seat, can you check Rule 35 and don’t allow the hon Khawula to do what he was doing today. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, allow me to take this opportunity, on behalf of the Chairperson, the Deputy Chairperson and the Chief Whip of the NCOP to thank the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, hon Nkoana-Mashabane, for availing herself to amswer questions in the NCOP. The issue of land is a very emotive one, but we thank you, hon members, for standing the cold in this Chamber. We know that it was extremely hot last week and today is the opposite of last week.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 18:47.