Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 30 Aug 2018


No summary available.


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The House met at 14:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Deputy Speaker for the opportunity. The response to the first question about former President Nelson Mandela is as follows.

We are proud of the contribution that former President Nelson Mandela made in our country in the fight against apartheid to a democratic society that we are all enjoying today. This is why government resolved to celebrate Madiba’s centenary.


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Our President officially launched the national programme during the state of the nation address this February.
Subsequently, various provinces and municipalities also announced their intentions of celebrating this centenary.

These centenary celebrations are meant to bring diverse South Africans together in pursuit of building a nation as envisioned by these leaders. Among key issues is to highlight the principles and values espoused by these great Africans, and to galvanise the spirit of national pride and ubuntu. In essence, the celebrations are about sharing the lessons from the life and leadership of Madiba to forge a shared sense of nationhood and patriotism.

It is envisaged that the messages shared through these celebrations will contribute to the removal of obstacles that still divide us as a nation as we strive to build upon the many ties that bind us together.

We hope that South Africans will, among other issues, be encouraged to give an amount of their time to make every day a

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Mandela Day, and use these celebrations as a vehicle to actively promote social cohesion.

A capitalist economic system anywhere in the world consists of inherent contradictions that inevitably perpetuate not only the income gap amongst the people but also breeds unwanted social friction. To achieve a just and equal society will require us to confront these prevailing contradictions. In our instance as a country, they manifest themselves in racially skewed socioeconomic patterns. For as long as these contradictions exist, attaining a just and equal society will continue to be elusive and difficult to achieve.

This therefore calls on all of us to emulate the values of Madiba just as we should do the same with mama Albertina Sisulu. These values are underpinned by selflessness, courage and compassion for the poor. This will be a continuation of their vision to build a united and cohesive society.

Without this, it will be difficult to address the current crisis of poverty, unemployment and inequality that continues to polarise our society. A cohesive society must be able to

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balance all such contradictions in a mutually reinforcing manner, and work towards reducing if not eliminating all the inequalities in society. Therefore, to achieve a truly cohesive society we must be ready to balance all these socioeconomic contradictions.

In many respects, the soul of our nation remains broken along two parallels of the rich and the poor. As much as we have made great strides since 1994, we are still far from attaining the South Africa of Madiba’s dream. That is why we have taken the route of addressing these imbalances through, amongst others, the unfolding process of land reform.

We will do this process within the prescripts of our Constitution and the law. South Africans have demonstrated their resilience and ability to confront and resolve national challenges through dialogue. This is Madiba’s virtue and this is our virtue too, and this is our contribution to the world. This position will remain a beacon of democratic governance in Africa.

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Our ability as a nation to come together, negotiate and build consensus on difficult matters remains our defining feature. It is a character that defines our allegiance to democratic governance in our own country, in the region and in the world. [Applause.]

Ms N GINA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker and Deputy President. Noting the recent racist outburst — it’s just but one example — by Adam Catzavelos while on his Greece holiday, where he appreciated the absence of blacks using the k-word, and recognising that this mindset is still deep-seated in many black South Africans in covert ways, be it in workplaces, social places and other environments, what are the existing mechanisms and government-led processes to foster the reconstruction and development programme, RDP, of the soul whilst confronting acute economic inequality and underlying social inequality in order to achieve a truly cohesive society in the country?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I’m sure all of us as leaders seated here understand our past ... where we come from. We come from a past where we were divided; we come from a past

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where we fought; we come from a past where we lost lives; we come from a past where some of our people left the country, went into exile and some languished in jails.

Now, the 1994 breakthrough presented us with an opportunity to come together. It was not going to be an event, but a process of healing.

Maybe we have not consistently and persistently followed the route that was started by Madiba — that of leading reconciliation. It is quite clear that we still harbour sentiments of the past. It is quite clear that we still harbour anger. That might be necessitated by the wounds that were inflicted on both sides of the divide.

However, all of us sitting here must appreciate that there is only one route available for this country — that of building a united nation. There’s nothing else that will help us if we are to really save the country. We must confront what hurts us. We must also confront what unites us as a country.
Strengthen the bonds that make us one nation. Attend to issues


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that are still hanging and issues that are still causing frustration and anger in our people.

The ability of these leaders to lead this nation forward rests on confronting the real challenges. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon Shaik?

An HON MEMBER: Make it a tough one.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy President, we speak about social cohesion and we want to follow in the footsteps of our icon, Madiba. However, on the one hand we talk about social cohesion while on the other hand we politicians in particular promote the other side. We are creating racial divides in South Africa.

One particular example that I will give you is with regard to the issue of land. It’s no longer becoming an issue of the land. It’s becoming an issue ... that we must take away from the whites and give to the blacks. Deputy President, I’m


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saying that, that is not the solution to the problems. If we want social cohesion and bring everybody in South Africa together we must not forget that not every South African white was racist; not every South African white participated in promoting apartheid in South Africa. Blacks themselves also perpetuated apartheid against blacks. How do we bring them together, Deputy President? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Like I’ve said, we have a certain past. Those who happened to be the oppressors must accept and realise that there should be change. Those who were oppressed are expecting change.

Now, there is a temptation for those who were in power to try and protect their comfort zones, and of course that does not go well with those who were oppressed. Somewhere there should be a middle route where these two will meet.

We need to accept that something has been taken from other people, and if we accept that, we as a nation can probably find a middle route that ... let’s share our country’s wealth.

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Make sure that those who are still languishing in poverty are taken out of poverty. Freedom without economic emancipation means nothing. It means nothing! This anger will continue. We are probably at the best time in our life to address this problem once and for all, and that will allow this country to go forward.

This country has prospects of becoming a great country amongst the countries of the world if we can really confront these challenges head on.

I’m getting a sense that there is resistance. There’s not an appreciation of the fact that we have millions and millions of our people that are still languishing in poverty. If we all want this country to move forward let’s appreciate and accept that ... collectively let’s do something to fight poverty and unemployment. [Interjections.] Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, may I just remind you that only the first supplementary question has two minutes. All subsequent questions have one minute. So please ... and you also have a right to ask a question or to express an opinion

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or make a statement in that time allocated to you. There is no additional time allocated to you. So when I request you to stop, do so. It will help you next time and it also helps every other person who is waiting for his or her turn. Please let’s just do that all the time. Hon Carter?

Ms D CARTER: Deputy President, the High Level Panel’s report concludes that nation-building and social cohesion can be encouraged through the progressive realisation of socioeconomic rights for all, and that to realise these rights requires a capable and developmental state.

Now, in this regard, the panel in its report noted evidence of weaknesses on the part of government to execute on policy and legislation, and a lack of political will to pursue the policy objectives.

Would you agree that the current concerns regarding, and the state of nation-building and social cohesion are founded in part on a state incapable of giving effect to its developmental duties and responsibilities, and if not, why not?

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However, seeing that I’ve still got time in my minute left, I would like to ask you, Deputy President, right now in Onderstepoort there are black farmers’ lands being invaded with the SA Police Service, the SAPS, refusing to intervene. How can we build a country and have social cohesion if this is the case and what can be done? Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I reminded you ... or you should know, because this is the rule. One question. So Deputy President, it’s up to you. It’s your turn.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, with regard to the last question that you have asked, we as government are going to oppose and stand firmly against land invasions and land grabs.

An HON MEMBER: It’s happening anyway.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are going to fight that. [Interjections.] We are going to use the law to ensure that, that does not happen and we request all of you ... [Interjections.]


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An HON MEMBER: When are you going to tell the police?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We request all of you to stand firm and condemn land grabs and land invasions. [Interjections.] It’s our collective effort. It is our collective effort. [Interjections.]

Now, with regard to your first question, I have said that all of us have inherited a country where the majority of the people were marginalised. The majority of the people did not have proper schooling, did not have water and did not have electricity. You can name everything. Above all, this majority was poor ... [Inaudible.]

Now, the democratic government had very few choices to make. Firstly, we are talking about social grants that were given to people. We have different versions and views about social grants but at that time it was a necessity to intervene because the majority was poor ... are still poor. When all of us have dinner in the evening, some don’t have dinner. Now, it was necessary to intervene. I am aware that we are spending

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billions for that intervention but it’s a necessary intervention.

Secondly, people were homeless. People did not have water. They were drinking with animals. Now, our challenges were just too huge to match the resources that we had as a country. So we had to gradually deal with those challenges. Yes, there are still challenges in the process of delivering these services of bringing water or bringing housing or building roads, but all of us are here and we can see that there is progress.
There is progress, as much as we are not happy about the progress because the majority have not yet received water, have not received electricity and have not received housing.

To date people are still queuing and fighting for houses. Today people are still protesting, wanting water. Today people are still protesting, wanting electricity. However, we have provided electricity to some. That means the journey is long and we should just keep on walking. Confront these challenges.

As a country we must accept that these challenges are real and they need all of us to address them. Otherwise, if there are

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those who will be spectators and condemn, we are going to push this country ... to slide into a catastrophe. Let’s do something to facilitate change. We are here. We must be agents of change. Thank you. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy President, we find common cause with you in your condemnation of Adam Catzavelos’ abhorrent comments. That word has no place in our democracy and it must be condemned, whether it’s him using it or whether it’s the ANC Youth League’s regional executive member Suzanne Govender using it. So we find common cause.

You’ve agreed that one of Madiba’s abiding legacies was the focus on the importance of education. In fact, he said that education is the most potent weapon which you can use to change the world. You would know that socioeconomic justice, as you have outlined, is not possible without education.

Sir, you would also be familiar that under the province of Mpumalanga, which has the highest number of adults who have received no schooling at all, it was your premiership that presided over that. [Interjections.]

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How do you as the Leader of Government Business see yourself as the custodian of Madiba’s legacy when you have left such a terrible legacy behind in your province? [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, thank you for that question. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members! Order hon members! Dis nou genoeg! [That’s enough!]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I’m not very sure whether you were well informed about what is happening in Mpumalanga. [Interjections.] I can ... [Interjections.] Well, I don’t ... I can’t be told by ...

An HON MEMBER: National Treasury. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... people from New York ... [Interjections.] ... about what is happening in South Africa where I live. Let me tell you what is happening. [Applause.]

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Let me tell you what is happening where I live in Mpumalanga

... [Interjections.] ... with regard to one or two steps that we have taken. In Mpumalanga I found farm schools — something that does not deserve to be called a school. [Interjections.] Children walking distances; one classroom with multiple grades; one teacher.

To date, from the time I left that province, I’ve closed

500 farm schools ... [Applause.] ... and I’ve built state of the art boarding schools ... [Interjections.] [Applause.] ... where our children ... [Interjections.] Well, one day you will see them if you want to. [Interjections.]

Okay, I’ve built one boarding school in Steve Tshwete in Middelburg; I’ve built one boarding school in Amsterdam; I’ve built one boarding school in Donkerhoek; I’ve built one comprehensive school in Machadodorp; ... [Interjections.] ... and currently we are building one school in Thaba Chweu. [Applause.] [Interjections.] However, let me tell you this story.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the Deputy President to respond to the questions posed to him. Order hon ... [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me tell you a story I once told the people of Mpumalanga. I used a chopper while looking at these farm schools. I flew around and saw a little girl who was wearing a uniform from a school in the middle of nowhere. I requested the pilot to land so that I could talk to the girl. [Interjections.]

The girl ran into a compound. I followed the girl. [Interjections.] When we went into the house I found no-one. It was just that little girl alone. I looked around. There was no sign of food. I looked around. The doors were open. I asked the little girl where her parents were.

An HON MEMBER: Where was the chopper? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The girl said they were at work. I waited. I waited until the parents came home at seven o’ clock the evening. Now, when they came home I realised that they had


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taken something intoxicating and they were not aware that there was a visitor in the house. [Interjections.] That was me.

When I left the house I realised that my duty was to save the child. The only way to save the child was to give this child a proper education, remove this child from that situation, provide this child with a decent facility, provide this child with a comfortable place where she could sleep and provide this child with a place where she could get food. [Interjections.] We realised that.

The second time I visited the school we had built I found the girl. The girl was very happy, like any other child. [Applause.] I was happy. I’m happy that I’ve made a difference in the life of that little girl. I’m happy. [Applause.] Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon members, the next question

... Hon members, order!


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Julle kan nie so tekere gaan nie. Asseblief! [Gelag.] Luister asseblief! Kan julle asseblief nie vir ’n oomblik stilbly nie? [Tussenwerpsels.]


Hon Hlengwa posed Question 20 to the Deputy President.

Question 20:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the cost of living in South Africa has a deep impact on the lives of our people. The poor often feels the impact of the increasing cost of living, thus further entrenching the levels of poverty. Government is therefore very focussed on addressing these rising costs across the economy.

During 2015 and 2016, the severe drought across the country had a serious impact on our agricultural production. This has led to increases in the cost of bread and other cereals, which are staples in the homes of many South Africans. The poor were of course hit the hardest. Since then, the drought has eased in many parts of the country and production levels of wheat


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and maize have increased. This has provided some relief to food prices.

In the last 12 months, food prices have increased by 3%. The rise in food prices has been softened by a decrease in the price of bread and cereals, by 3% over the period and the decrease in the price of fruit by 4% over the same 12-month period. This eased some of the pressure on the poorest households in our country, but food prices remain unaffordable to many citizens.

There are a number of products that are currently zero rated for VAT. This includes bread, maize meal, samp, milk, rice, vegetables, eggs and fruit. A task team that has been established by the Minister and National Treasury to investigate other products that could be zero rated or exempted from VAT is hard at work. We expect to receive their findings in due course and you will probably also have that opportunity to comment.

Fuel prices continue to be a concern for government. Between July 2017 and July 2018, the fuel price increased by 25,2%,


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leading, in part, to a 10% increase in the cost of transport. Fuel prices have been driven by higher global oil prices and a weak rand. Government is currently considering available options to address the cost of petrol and diesel.

While there is a lot of work needed to address the cost of living, particularly for the poor, there is also a lot of work underway to improve job opportunities and better wages, so that more South Africans can be able to mitigate the impact of the rising cost of living.

The national minimum wage is an important policy intervention to ensure that more South Africans earn a decent wage. The National Minimum Wage Bill, when assented into law will compliment the efforts of trade unions through collective bargaining as well as the monthly social grants payments.

It must be pointed out that social cohesion can never be achieved, if the majority of South Africans remain trapped in poverty. The escalating costs, especially where the poor feels the impact more than other parts of society are a challenge to any economy. Given South African’s history, the high level of


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inequality as well as the need to reduce the poverty level, it is an imperative that this government make it a point to find interventions, so that we can ease the burden on the poor.

We have no choice but to address the cost of basic goods and services in order to provide our people with opportunities to create their own businesses, find decent work and earn decent wages. Therefore, our response to address the negative impact of rising costs on the poor requires a comprehensive approach that is multifaceted. Over and above the VAT zero rating of basic food items, our comprehensive antipoverty programmes are geared towards cushioning the poor, in order to ensure that poor households earn an income that will allow them to participate in the economic system.

Government will continue to prioritise public employment programmes to create job opportunities and provide many young people with some income relief. We are also focussing on developing and supporting small businesses and co-operatives, in order to expand economic participation of all South Africans across all sectors of economy and to increase job creation.


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As we do this, the poor will be absorbed into productive economic development and employment opportunities. More importantly, the government has also embarked on a vigorous campaign to attract investment, which will grow the economy and expand employment opportunities. To this end, the President has announced an investment conference for later this year, with the aim of attracting R1,3 trillion over the next five years. This investment will come from foreign and local investors. Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, for the longest of time, South Africans are always told that they must tighten their belts, but government does not seem to be walking its own tune or talk. We see nothing from government to cut costs, tighten belts and so on. What we see from government is VAT increases, fuel levy increases, luxurious oversight with helicopters, a VAT panel, which has come out with very poor recommendations. You spoke about the VAT panel. They have concluded their work. They have expired. They have not reviewed the 19 items on the list; instead they have added only four, which are quite questionable themselves.


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There are e-tolls in the face of the poor and the cost of travelling for South Africans is increasing daily. In Durban, commuters have told taxi operators that they cannot afford a further increase in commuter cost.

Apart from all that you have said, which at face value may seem nice, but quite frankly, we have heard it all before. What is being done in the immediate to deal with the escalating cost of petrol? Does government have a relief package? Don’t you think that in the interim, it would assist South Africans that we suspend the collection of the fuel levies and really look at the energy regime of this country, so that it does not burden the poor?

The time has come for government to tighten its own belt as oppose to expecting an already strained poor South African to tighten belts? That then means that we are not practical and not affordable, and in dire conditions of poverty. When will the ball actually be in the court of government as oppose to expecting it to be in the court of poor South Africans? Thank you.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I hear your proposal. I am sure that you are not expecting a response just like that. [Interjections.] It is a proposal that you are making and you want us to consider that proposal, but beyond that, the President has announced in the state of the nation address this year that we are going to reconfigure government. Now, that process is happening. It is happening and I am sure that at the right time, the President will make an announcement.

We have just realised that we probably need to scale down the public service. [Interjections.] As we look at our compensation of employees’ bill, we see that it is a bill that cannot be sustained, going forward. It is important to look at stringent measures of belt tightening because the conditions warrant that move.

Of course, you will understand the question of fuel. This is a commodity that we are not producing as a country; it is a commodity that we buy. So, it will depend on those who are selling. Now, the price of oil and fuel fluctuates. It is a commodity that is fluctuating and it affects us. Remember, when the price of oil goes up, the price of transport, food


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and everything will go up, just triggered by the oil price and the fuel price. It is a matter that we are looking into.

However, we are not just sitting and folding our arms. There are a lot of interventions to try to help the poor to cushion the cost of living. I am aware that those interventions might not be enough. As long as the cost of living is too high, we must continue in our efforts to ameliorate and help the poor to live a decent life. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, the poor and the working-class people of this country are under attack from government because you are taxing the poor to subsidise the rich, subsidise the expensive and opulent lifestyle of the incumbent government Ministers. How are you doing this? You are doing this by increasing, on a daily basis, the prices of petrol, basic staple food, which is consumed by the poor and which is getting unaffordable daily. You have increased the VAT for the first time after 20 years.

We have provided you two options and advice: one, increase the corporate tax for multinational corporations; two, close the


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leakages in the tax system, by ensuring that you follow those who are engaging in illicit financial flows. [Time expired.] In both cases, you have not provided answers. How do you hope that the lives of our people will be eased when you do all these things to subsidise the rich, at the expense of the poor people?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are making some proposals and you are insisting that we do this and do that. We hear you. It is probably easy when you are sitting on the other side to say, do this and do that. A lot of considerations must be made on a number of proposals, but it is not that we are sitting and doing nothing. You are quite aware of all the antipoverty alleviation programmes that we are pursuing, as government.
You are quite aware of the 3,5 million indigent households that are currently receiving free basic services. You are currently aware of the grants that our people are receiving.

So, I am saying that there are a number of interventions that seek to cushion the poor. Of course, there are challenges that we must confront, but as we confront these challenges, we should not upset the economy.


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Remember, the policy on fee-free higher education is a very good policy but it comes with costs. It is good for the children of the poor and it is a cushion that goes to the poor. Now, at least, they don’t have to battle to fund or get their children to school to receive tertiary education.
Government pays. So, that is a cushion. That is money that comes from the taxes.

I have never heard of any country where the amount of resources is more than the needs of the country. It is always the case that the needs always exceed what we have. All the time, it is a question of balancing the needs with what is available. That goes straight to your household. Everyday, you balance and shift your budget. Your budget does not remain static, as you run your own household. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ntshayisa.

Mr L M NSHAYISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the question?


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Mr N S MATIASE: No, you have not answered the question.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you cannot have that again, hon member.

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order: ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no. [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, we are not playing here. We raise questions that we have applied our minds to and we expect quality answers on these questions. The Deputy President is not answering the questions.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member!

Mr N S MATIASE: How can we take him seriously, if he cannot take himself seriously? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. I have told you.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have told you. I will switch off the microphone. You cannot insist on talking when I am asking you to take your seat.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Deputy Speaker, the Deputy President is asking what the question is. Just give him the chance to hear the question. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the Deputy President will respond if he has to respond.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Now give him ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am saying ...

Ms H O MKHALIPI: No, he wants to answer.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Don’t argue.


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Ms H O MKHALIPI: Why are you protecting him? Why are you protecting him?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat! I am switching off the microphone.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: We are working here; we are not playing.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am switching off the microphone.


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Hhayi suka wena! Wena uyadelela. [Ubuwelewele.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, stand up and withdraw that. Withdraw that!


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Ukuthini? Ukuthi uyadelela. Ukuthini?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw that.


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Ms H O MKHALIPI: What must I withdraw?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw what you have just said.


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Ukuthini? Ukuthi ...


... the Deputy President must answer.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if you don’t want to withdraw what you said, ...


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Ukuthini?


Tell me!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if you don’t want to withdraw what you said, then you must leave the House.


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Ms H O MKHALIPI: What? I can leave the House! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, do so!

Ms H O MKHALIPI: I am very happy!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please, quickly, do so!


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Vele uyadelela!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do so and do so quickly! [Interjections.]


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Uyadelela!


I will repeat that! [Interjections.]


Uyadelela! [Ubuwelewele.]


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I think you have gone beyond the acceptable boundaries and you will be dealt with appropriately.


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Hhayi suka wena uyasabisa.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I request you to go.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: You are not going to do anything! Nothing!


USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hamba ke! Hamba ke sisi.


Nk H O MKHALIPI: Uyadelela! Uyadelela!


USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela uhambe.



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Nk H O MKHALIPI: Uyadelela kodwa okusalayo. Wena uyadelela! [Ubuwelewele.]


You must know that this is not your own house. This is not your own house!

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on the point of the decorum of the House and your ruling according to the Rules as well as Rule 84 on the way we are supposed to address one another. I therefore, irrespective of the fact that you have ordered the member to leave, the matter has to be taken seriously and taken to the right forums, so that the decorum of the House is respected in future.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will refer that matter to people who should do so in the Rules Subcommittee as well. [Interjections.]


Nk M KHAWULA: Uxolo Somlomo, ngiyabonga. Cha, Somlomo kodwa uSEKELA Mongameli akasiphenduli ulokhu ethi ama-proposals,


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ama-proposals. Sifuna ukwazi ukuthi njengoba uphethiloli ukhuphuka kangaka nje futhi abantu bebe bengasebenzi ukuthi bona bathini njengohulumeni?

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Lungu elihloniphekile ngicela uhlale phansi. Ngicela uhlale phansi Mama.

Mr L M NSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, for the purpose of poverty alleviation, social cohesion and also capping the escalating costs, how can the SMMEs contribute, in this regard, so that the people, particularly in the rural areas do not suffer so much?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You will be aware that, as government, we have supported SMMEs. We have even gone beyond the point of supporting and we have created a Ministry to specifically look at SMMEs and co-operatives. You will be aware of all the financial institutions that are meant to assist SMMEs and co- operatives. That is working. There are a lot of SMMEs that have been assisted. We still need to scale up.


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I am aware that, as government, we are working on a programme that would allow SMMEs and co-operatives to provide services to government so that, as government, we present the primary market for SMMEs and co-operatives. For instance, we are feeding children at school, we are feeding patients in hospitals, we are feeding inmates in correctional services and our view is that, as government, the fresh produce that we use in those facilities to feed our people must be sourced from SMMEs and co-operatives. That is one way of providing the primary market for them so that we can enable them to grow.
Thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, it is true that the soaring cost of living, with the escalation of the price of petrol and VAT has impacted everyone in South Africa. However, there is a need to try other multifaceted ways to ensure that we make some interventions in order to create a space for job creation. In your own way, at a local level, what do you think municipalities, faith-based organisations, FBOs, community-based organisations, CBOs and the private sector can do to try and assist our youth who have to travel from their homes to internet cafes to look for jobs,


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to places of work when they are not getting jobs? What can they do at a local level? How do you think they can help us?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You will understand that those businesses like shops that were owned and general dealers that happen to be there in the past have folded because there now are malls. What I think can happen at a township and rural setting is that these malls and big businesses that have been created in the space of the spaza shops and those things must now open space in their value chain for SMMEs in the surrounding to supply certain goods and services. It should be an advantage that we have a big investment in the area so that small enterprises can benefit, if they are recognised and if they are going to provide services in the required quantity and in the required quality.

That is what I think, because to come and invest in a space, we must appreciate that those who are building the mall are bringing money into that space, but some of the goods and services that are being sold there can be sourced from the surrounding, so that you can empower the SMMEs and the co- operatives. Then we can grow together.


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The coming in of the mall has caused a certain shop to close because people now don’t buy bread at that spaza shop but in the mall. The owners of the mall, working together with these small enterprises can find a way to have these small enterprises providing services to these bigger facilities.

However, as government, we must also intervene. We cannot leave it to the private sector to intervene. In every locality we are building a house, a school or a road. As government we must source these building materials from the local SMMEs and co-operatives. Of course, the quality of the products must be of the required standard. Thank you.

Question 21:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, we must start by dispelling the myth that the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, is a failure. The programme continues to impact positively on the lives of participants, especially in alleviating poverty through the provision of work opportunities for poor and unemployed people living in socioeconomically depressed areas.


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The fundamental objective of the EPWP is to increase employment opportunities so that individuals who cannot find work can earn an income and gain experience and skills through productive work. Whilst the EPWP contributes to the creation of employment opportunities for the unemployed youth, there is sometimes an unrealistic expectation for the EPWP to be a panacea for unemployment challenges in the country. In our view, the EPWP is a transitional intervention, as we are still dealing with the structural changes in our economy and addressing them towards full employment.

Undeniably, the EPWP has an important role to play, but it cannot be the only instrument to address unemployment. These unrealistic expectations are likely to result in failure and pessimism about the value of the EPWP. Other government interventions that respond to youth unemployment include government support in initiatives that promote industrialisation, improved agricultural production and improved tourism. These are supposed to contribute towards increased employment along with the EPWP. So, we should not regard the EPWP as the only instrument to deal with unemployment.


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Through the partnership with the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority, merSETA, government seeks to address the shortage of scarce and critical skills required by our economy. This includes training the youth in various artisan trades such as boilermakers, diesel mechanics, electricians, fitters and turners, as well as motor mechanics. You can name the lot.
Over and above the training provided to our young people, hundreds of small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, which include co-operatives, have been supported by government. This support includes capacity-building and training with regard to compliance matters required from SMMEs by various industry bodies.

Let me also state that the abuse of recruitment of EPWP participants for narrow political, factional, or individual reasons is unethical and unacceptable, regardless of the party-political affiliation of those involved. To address the risk of corruption and fraud in the EPWP, the Department of Public Works has developed the EPWP Recruitment Guidelines
that were approved by the Minister of Labour in December 2017. [Interjections.] These guidelines describe the requirements


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for the fair, equitable and transparent recruitment processes of all participants in the EPWP. In implementing these guidelines, all participating stakeholders are expected to enforce them. In cases where these guidelines are violated, members of the public are encouraged to report such incidences. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, what a disappointing Deputy President we have in South Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.] The key operative word was “innovative”. Deputy President, you are just rehashing what has been rehashed with what you are telling me. I serve on the Public Works Portfolio Committee. There is nothing innovative in what you are telling me – telling me about a policy I have heard a million times.
So, we challenge you to be innovative.

Let’s proceed and answer it point by point. There is no socioeconomic impact made by your government to see the real or unknown effects of this programme. The EPWP is designed – speaking now in the context of the youth – to assist people, especially the young ones, but the educated youth of South Africa do not go and queue for those jobs. That is where some


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of us are thinking of those graduates on whom a lot of money was spent at college. Thirdly, training that does not result in job opportunities is a waste of money, and that is what your government is focusing on. The original target was
6 million jobs by 2019. Two years ago, with the economy struggling, it became clear that this was no more than a mirage in a desert in South Africa.

The question is the following: Whilst the commissions and criminal investigations are going on, what alternative innovative methods do you have for creating employment for our youth? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I thought I answered the question. I thought I am answering the question, and if you feel I have not answered the question, I apologise. I can read the question. I can read the question again. [Interjections.]

We have spoken about the triple challenge of poverty, unemployment and inequality in our country. As government, we have prioritised these three challenges. There are programmes aimed at alleviating poverty. There are programmes aimed at


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expanding employment. The EPWP is one of the instruments that we have created to get people to earn a living. Now, in the process, when people are earning a living, they are trained in different skills so that they can graduate out of the EPWP and into permanent employment. [Interjections.] That is one. That is one, and it is happening. It is happening. [Interjections.]

According to the question, the question condemns corruption in the EPWP, and I am saying there were guidelines developed in terms of how people are recruited in the EPWP. Those who are participating now have the right to report any deviations outside of these guidelines. That does not mean the EPWP, as an intervention, is not working. Outside that, I have said government is supporting SMMEs and co-operatives. We are looking at a situation where people should create their own employment. We have supported a number of co-operatives, and we still insist that is the right way to go. Any economy that is thriving is an economy that is supported by SMMEs and co- operatives. Those SMMEs and co-operatives employ two or three people, they employ 20 people, and they grow into a bigger business. Big businesses all started as small businesses.


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Therefore, government should not waver. We should continue our support to ensure that these small businesses become part of the formal economy. You will realise that a lot of these small businesses – hawkers, and you can name them – are now in the informal economy. We can only succeed to grow the economy if we can assist these businesses in the informal economy and help them graduate to the formal economy. Thank you.

Dr M J FIGG: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Deputy President: It is a well-documented fact that where the ANC governs, EPWP jobs are only given to card-carrying members of the ANC. [Interjections.] We know this because many residents have reported this. Some have provided affidavits, whilst others have remained anonymous for fear of being victimised. It is also alleged that females have even been asked for sexual favours by ANC officials in exchange for EPWP jobs. [Interjections.]

With the 2019 national and provincial elections coming up, can the Deputy President give assurance to this House and to the people of South Africa that EPWP jobs will not be used to buy votes? [Applause.]


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An HON MEMBER: Yes or no?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I have said recruitment based on narrow political, factional and individual reasons is unethical and unacceptable. That has been reported over time, and that has led the Department of Public Works to develop guidelines on how recruitment should be followed. Those guidelines are there, and they are working. [Interjections.]

We say ... [Interjections.] ... we should probably go on an awareness campaign to make participants aware that there are guidelines that protect them so that if there is any deviation, the participants have the right to stand up and report that deviation. [Interjections.] That is the only way we will make our people aware that any recruitment and any employment in the EPWP should be happening according to the guidelines. If the guidelines are not followed, people have a right to report it with immediate effect.

We are not encouraging that. We are not encouraging employment based on party affiliation. [Interjections.] We are not encouraging that, and that is wrong. Thank you.


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Mnu K P SITHOLE: Mhlonishwa Sekela Somlomo, mhlonishwa Sekela Mongameli abantu abangaqashiwe abasha bangu-52%. I-EPWP iyingxenye yabantu abagwaza iphepha. Umbuzo uthi, ngokwezifundazwe abantu abaqeqeshiwe bangaki ukuze bakwazi mhlawumbe ukuthola imisebenzi engcono kwezinye izindawo ngaphandle kokugwaza iphepha. Ngiyabonga.



... okwamanje ngeke ngikwazi ukusho bangaki abantu abasha ngokwesifundazwe abangaqashiwe kodwa esikwaziyo nje wukuthi iphesenti ...


... in terms of the entire country, we have so many young people who are unemployed.


Kodwa futhi esikwaziyo wukuthi ...


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... currently, we have a number of young people who are at university, more or less 1,6 million. We have a lot of young people in Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges, more or less 2,5 million. We have young people currently in training facilities training as boilermakers and electricians. Currently, that number exceeds 30 000.

The Human Resource Development Council is trying very hard to merge the demand in the economy with what must be supplied to the economy. Currently, yes, there is training happening in various categories.


Kodwa kufanele sikuvume ukuthi kunentsha ephumile yasishiye phansi isikole, besiyeka isikole ku-Grade 7 naku Grade 5, o- Grade 6-7 ...


... they have not reached Grade 12. Those young people can be trained. They should be traced and be trained. Part of the
30 000 who are in training is the young people who did not


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acquire a Grade 12 qualification. They are currently in training but, of course, what needs to happen now is that we train based on the demand. For instance, if I am Gauteng, the sector that is very big in Gauteng is mining. If I am Mpumalanga, mining and agriculture are big. So, we should train young people according to the strength of the economy in that province. Then, as you train these young people, they can be absorbed into the economy. That should be the approach.


Kodwa-ke mhlawumbe umbuzo wakho wokuthi bangaki abantu abasha abangaqashiwe ngokwesifundazwe yimininingwane esingakutholela leyo uma ufuna ukuyazi ngoba yiyo engingakayiphenduli.


Ms N K F HLONYANA: Deputy Speaker and Mr President ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Deputy!


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Ms N K F HLONYANA: Mr Deputy President, I heard something. [Interjections.] Mr Deputy President, you cannot create jobs in an economy you don’t own. The truth is that the strategic decision-making powers in our economy are in private hands. The same group of people who owned the economy 100 years ago,
50 years ago, and 25 years ago still own the economy today, with the few in government being allowed to benefit as long as they remain puppets of this white monopoly capital.

Banking is central to any economy, but in South Africa commercial banks and also the Reserve Bank are in private hands, one of only nine countries in the world. The Reserve Bank should serve the interests of the people and the country as a whole and not the private interests and shareholders.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms N K F HLONYANA: The question is ... [Interjections.] The EFF will be tabling a Bill so that the Reserve Bank can be nationalised. As the Leader of Government Business, sir, will you support this Bill? [Interjections.]


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I have tried to explain that we are in a capitalist system. Now, this system dictates that the private sector will coexist with the public sector. The public sector, in the main, is in the hands of business. The public sector is in the hands of the state. In our case, we have agreed to follow or to live under this system with the belief that the state, from time to time, can intervene in the economy. It is not that the economy of the country is entirely in the hands of the private sector. Government, from time to time, intervenes to try and defend the poor.

This government has made a lot of interventions ...


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The intervention that we have made ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Name a few. Amsterdam?


Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngabe ngempela uSekela Mongameli ngabe


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uthunyiwe njengoba kuwuThuma Mina nje, ngabe uthunywe ukuthi azosishayashaya la ngoba phela uyahluleka wukuphendula imibuzo la. Akhukho neyodwa impendulo. Uzosishayashaya nje. [Ubuwelewele.]

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Sicela uhlale phansi! Cha! Cha! Akukhulunywa kanjalo. [Ubuwelewele.]

Nk M S KHAWULA: Iyona into ayithunyiwe. [Ubuwelewele.]

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Lungu elihloniphekile, akulona iphuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo lelo, uwena osishayashayayo manje. Sicela uhlale phansi. Musa ukuthatha ama-chance ma.


Ms N K F HLONYANA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The President is not answering the question. [Interjections.]


Ms N K F HLONYANA: The question was ...


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member!

Ms N K F HLONYANA: The question was, as the Leader of Government Business, would he support ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, don’t insist on speaking. [Interjections.] Can I clarify this matter? Hon members, you have ... I read out the time allocated to you. You can make a statement or ask a question. If you prioritise your statement, we cannot be responsible. Whether your question is answered or not is up to you. You gambled away the time you had to ask your question in time. Even if that is so, you cannot insist on the type of answer you want. The Deputy President has been answering here. If you are unhappy, you know what the procedure should be. It becomes problematic for you guys to insist on getting the quality of that ... [Interjections.] “Hon members”, I withdraw “guys” – “hon members”. Hon members, take your seats and be orderly. Deputy President, please proceed.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I am sure we should avoid preambles to our questions because I don’t get the


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question. It is a statement without a question. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, I think we are done with Question 21. Let’s go to Question 22.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I want to start off by pleading with you just to allow me to finish my statement, even if it causes some discomfort. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the principle, hon Filtane? The Rule says you must tell us what Rule you rise on or the principle you want to address. [Interjections.] Don’t tell us to wait for you to finish your 50-minute statement before we state our views about what you mean. [Interjections.] What is the principle, sir?

Mr M L W FILTANE: It is the Rule that deals with relevance of a matter. That is the Rule. I don’t have the number.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is fine. That is good. You are coming along better now. Go ahead.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, with pain, I have to say that we appeal to the Deputy President to familiarise himself with matters and issues that we raise in our questions. [Interjections.] In none of his responses to anyone in their follow-up questions did he come close to answering. He gave responses. There is a difference between a response and an answer. He came nowhere near. He should rather have spoken to the Minister of Public Works to know exactly what the subject matter is about.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Deputy President will respond to your opinion, sir.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I don’t think this comment deserves a response from me. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]            It is a criticism. Probably, we should have to look at it. Can we move to the next question?


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will say that, hon Deputy President. [Laughter.] The question you are responding to now is from the hon Mabasa.

Question 22:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, townships under the apartheid spatial planning framework were designed simply to be pools of labour to service the main industrial and commercial areas. Economic activities were confined, largely, to spaza shops, taverns and other small businesses. Such policies kept black South Africans out of the mainstream economy.

With the freedom that came after the democratic elections in 1994, concerted efforts were undertaken by the ANC-led government to reverse the legacy of apartheid. We saw a roll- out of essential services to the townships, which saw them being electrified, and larger shops and malls located closer to where people live. Today, there is a flourishing number of township enterprises that were not there before. However, the opening of bigger businesses in the townships negatively impacted on township businesses previously owned by local


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residents. In most cases, this led to the closure of these businesses.

It is worth noting that the rapid rate of urbanisation provides constant growth to the potential economic base of township enterprises. However, many of these township enterprises are still constrained by policies, practices and, sometimes, regulations that do not give them the space to grow into larger businesses. These include the absence of appropriate infrastructure, municipal regulations, a risk- averse attitude by some financial institutions, and concerns about crime.

In respect of infrastructure, for a hawker who sells at the side of the road, or near a major commuting centre, the absence of water points or sanitation facilities becomes a constraint. In townships with an inadequate supply of electricity, it means that spaza shops cannot have fridges for certain perishable products. Similarly, small traders often have no places where their goods can be stored.


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Therefore, to address these challenges, government has been rolling out economic infrastructure, such as electricity and roads, to boost informal businesses in townships and rural areas. To promote access to capital, we are putting more money into small business development initiatives to give agencies, like the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, and others, more and more resources to support township enterprises.

We need commercial banks to come to the party and partner with government to fund township and rural entrepreneurs. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: My apologies, Deputy President. Wherever you are, please switch your microphone off and don’t speak ... [Interjections.] No, no. Go ahead, Deputy President. [Interjections.] No. Wait, wait, hon member. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Making space for new investment in township and rural enterprises has the potential to unlock growth and employment, create the entrepreneurs of tomorrow, and foster the creativity and innovation desired for the


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Fourth Industrial Revolution. There must be a deliberate effort to leverage government procurement to support economic participation and industrialisation efforts in townships and rural areas.

Big business must meaningfully integrate township businesses into their procurement value chains to ensure that economic benefits also accrue to local businesses. For instance, a mall in a township must find a way of sourcing its fresh produce and goods from local farmers and producers, where these are available.

Government has begun to open up markets to emerging farmers and small businesses to participate in our nutrition programme. We want to ensure that government is able to procure everything that is produced by emerging farmers to ensure that our facilities, such as schools, hospitals and correctional centres, contribute to stimulating the township economy. More importantly, we must leverage our government infrastructure development programme to stimulate the manufacturing of construction materials in townships and rural


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areas. We already have township and rural businesses that are manufacturing bricks, tiles, doors, and roof trusses.

Government will ensure that we support the development of township and rural businesses to supply construction materials to government infrastructure projects, such as the construction of roads, houses, schools, and hospitals. In some provinces, this is already happening, albeit on a very small scale. More work still needs to be done across all government sectors.

For us, this is at the heart of economic transformation and empowerment. Making space for new investment in township and rural enterprises has the potential to unlock growth and employment, create the entrepreneurs of tomorrow, and foster the creativity and innovation that will address the needs of our country.

Township enterprises provide us with an opportunity for employment across a number of segments of our labour force and are an important means to address inclusion and reduce poverty. In addition, entrepreneurial opportunities represent


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an important channel for economic participation and transformation. This will allow disadvantaged South Africans, including youth and women, to create their own opportunities to participate in the economy. Thank you.


Nkul X MABASA: Xandla xa Xipikara na Xandla xa Presidente, ndzi khensa nhlamulo ya n’wina. I ntiyiso leswaku milawu ya xihlawuhlawu yi lahlile Vantima yi va lahlela ekule na mibindzu lama ma ha hluvukaka - yi va lahlele ekule na laha mabindzu ya nga hluvukaka hi ku olova. Xavumbirhi, milawu ya xibalo na yona yi tikisela vanhu va mabindzu lamatsongo.
Xavunharhu, maphorisa na maphorisa ya swa le mapatwini va hlasela vanhu va mabindzu lamatsoingo. Va va hlongola etindhawini to fana na le switichini swa switimele na le switichi swa mabazi laha ku nga na vanhu votala lava va va xaviselaka kutani va va yisa ekule.

Xana hi wihi nawu lowu mi nga wu tirhisaka ku pfuna ku tlakusa nhluvuko wa mabindzu lamatsongo emalokichini na le tindhawini ta le matikoxikaya ku hluvukisa na ku kurisa mabindzu lawa ya nga akiwa hi xihlawuhlawu?


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HON MEMBERS: Time! Time!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not timekeepers, hon members! [Interjections.] Go ahead, hon member. [Interjections.]


Mr X MABASA: Mabindzu lamatsongo emalokixini na le migangeni ya le matikoxikaya ya fanele ya pfuniwa hi mfumo wa hina leswaku ya kota ku ringana na mabindzu lamakulu yo fana na Woolworths, Shoprite na Pick ‘n Pay. Emalokichini ku na xiphiqo lexi hina va mfumo hi faneleke ku xi susa.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has now expired.


Nkul X MABASA: Xana hi wihi nawu lowu mfumo wu nga wu endlaka ku pfuna vanhu va mabindzu lamatsongo eka swiphiqo swa vona leswotala? [Nkarhi wu herile.]



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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has now expired. Hon members, please, man. This self-appointment into positions is bad news, everywhere. Stop appointing yourselves as timekeepers, hon members!

Ms N K F NHLONYANA: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There are official timekeepers here, who are keeping the record. [Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your watch is irrelevant. There are timekeepers ...

Ms N K F NHLONYANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, you are not being fair. [Interjections.] You must be fair at all times. You are making sure that we use one minute but you allow the ANC to use more time. That is not fair, Sir!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, that is not true. The record is being read here, in front of me. [Interjections.] No, no, no. The


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time is being kept here. I am not in charge of this time. [Interjections.] The officials use the records here, in front of me. [Interjections.] So, your defective watches are out of order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, you made it very clear at the beginning of this session that the person in whose name the question is gets two minutes to ask a follow-up question – two minutes. The hon Mabasa had two minutes in which to ask a follow-up question, not one minute. So, he was within his time limit.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes! I’m just pointing out that there is an assumption that we are increasing his time. This is out of order. Please, hon members, you have got your dipstick in the wrong hole! [Laughter.] Absolutely! This is why you are getting a wrong reading. [Laughter.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I think you are being unparliamentary! [Laughter.] There is no figure of speech like the one you have used now.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no. Sit down, you don’t understand. [Laughter.]

Mr N S MATIASE: No, no.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat!


USEKELA SOMLOMO: Sizokuhabulisa mfana, hlala phansi sizoyixoxa kahle nawe lendaba, ngathi awuyizwa, awuyiboni kahle.


No, it’s very clear. No, no, no. This is why we read this thing in advance. [Laughter.] Hon Cebekhulu, I suspect the problem is that of proper induction, and so on, but we will repeat the Rules. I am also going to recommend that we amend the Guide before us so that we include the discretion that the Chair or presiding officer has over the cue. I want to repeat this, because I realise that some members have come to the front here to take pictures of the names on the list, on the assumption that we follow that order. We don’t.


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Hon members, let me repeat it. We want a diversity of members. We want a diversity of people inside parties. We want proportional numbers, so that, when you look at the list of people asking supplementary questions and you look against those who press their buttons, you can see there was rationality behind the choices made to spread supplementary questions across everybody, in as diverse a manner as possible. We have written to members who formally requested this. We do want to ensure that we remind you of that. It is an important consideration.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA:Ow ndiyakuthanda namhlanje, yilanto bendizama ukuyithetha kule veki iphelileyo,unyanisile


I agree with you, wholeheartedly, 100%...




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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon Cebekhulu? I apologise. You were going to rise ... What’s your point of order, hon member?


Mnu M HLENGWA: Mina? Cha! Ngikhuluma ngalokhu okushoyo kwenkosi uCebekhulu ukuthi ...


... he has had to step out. So, consistent with diversity, you can take the next question. We are prepared to be fair like that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, I am grateful for your generosity! [Laughter.]


Mnu S C MNCWABE: Sihlalo, ngikhulume noma uSekela Mongameli usazo phendula ubaba uMabasa? [Ubuwelewele.]


Mr Mabasa has not received his response.


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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, thank you. That has been very helpful, in directing me.


Mnu S C MNCWABE: Ngisabuya kodwa

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hhayi hlala phansi ngizobuyela kuwena uma kubonakala ngathi uyadingeka.

Mnu S C MNCWABE: Mnumzane!



Deputy President, I skipped you responding to the hon member, here. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. There was a break, necessitated by what, I don’t know, but there was a break.


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Well, if I understood the question properly, it was that small businesses in the townships face an onslaught by the invasion of big business. That refers to the first question, and is my comment. The second question is about the proliferation of foreign-owned businesses in the townships and the problem that presents.

Well, as to the first comment on the question, I don’t think the introduction of big business into the townships presents a problem. I think it is an investment that must be welcomed, and all we must encourage is for big business to work with small businesses. As I have said before, these small businesses have services they can provide to big business, only if they can be included in their procurement value chain so that they also benefit. This is something we want to encourage in our townships, where we have the introduction of big shops, like Shoprite and Woolworths, so that they can work together with these SMMEs.

The foreign-owned spaza shops are a problem only if ... because foreigners have the right as long as they have followed the right process on entering the country. Home


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Affairs must ensure that everyone who is trading in the country has the right documentation to be in the country. In addition, those who are regulating businesses in the townships, those who are providing licences to trade, must ensure that everyone who is trading in the township has a licence.

And HON MEMBER: No one!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, this can simply slide down into something called xenophobia for as long as we don’t follow our rules, as a country, of allowing foreign nationals into the country. They must have the required documents for them to trade and open businesses. They must have the right documents. So, I don’t think it’s a problem if they have all the documentation that is required to participate in the economy of our country.

However, some of our people have rented out their shops to these foreign nationals. That means our people have given up. Yesterday, there was an attack on foreign nationals’ shops.
The gripe and the problem was that these shops are selling


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expired goods. I asked myself if these shops are selling expired goods, why are the people looting these shops for expired goods and taking them into their homes? [Laughter.] This means that these goods have not expired. That is just a way of deceiving all of us, saying that the goods have expired. They are looting. The essence is to loot. [Interjections.] Yes, those were your two questions, if I understood correctly.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mncwabe ...


... ungakaqali baba.


Hon Mabasa, in future ... I am addressing you in this way because I know you the way I know you and I’m addressing all members ... [Interjections.] ... Hold on, old on! Hold on, hon members! As soon as you say ... firstly, man, please prioritise your questions because if you don’t do that, you end up asking the question you really wanted to ask with no time left to ask it. So, please, all members should prioritise


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their questions and listen to the time allocation you have. Don’t appropriate for yourself, with or without compensation, the time in the House. Hon Mncwabe, please proceed.

Mr S C MNCWABE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, my question is also about the issue of the conflict between foreign-owned businesses and our people. I will tell you that the cause of the conflict is not the issue of documentation. It is the unfair competition that is taking place.

It is alleged that the foreigners buy in bulk and compete against one person in the township. It is alleged that they get assistance from their countries to buy in bulk and to bring down the prices because they are assisted somewhere. That is the reality in the townships. [Interjections.]

My question is: Does the government have any plans to address the issue of unfair competition in townships? I ask this because that is the cause of the conflict.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, in some of your questions you say it is alleged, it is alleged, it is alleged. Of course, I am going to try and answer these allegations.

If people come together, organise themselves, and go and buy in bulk, it means that they have put their money together and bought in bulk so that they can get a good discount. That discount is going to be transferred to the end user – the one who buys. That is good business practice.

I don’t understand why our people are not doing the same thing. They can come together, get their money together and go and buy in bulk so that they can get the benefit - the necessary discount – so that that discount can be transferred to the consumer. I think that goes to the heart of our problem, as South Africans. We want to run a one-man-show business. I want to run my own business. I don’t care what is happening to the next person.

These people are successful because they come together. First of all, they are in a foreign country. They are compelled to


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get to know each other and to work together. That is what makes them successful.

However, the questions that we have concern whether they are here legally and whether they have the right to trade. Those are the questions we must answer. For the rest, these problems about competition, it depends on how you market your products and how you sell yourself. We should encourage our people to come together and even own these big malls, as a group. [Interjections.] It’s possible for them to build a mall, as a group, and to sell their products there.

Of course, some of the allegations you are making need to be investigated to see how far they go. If some of these things are happening, I think government needs to intervene. Thank you.

Mr M S MALATSI: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, if there is anything that the events of the past 24 hours have taught us about areas such as White City and other townships in Soweto, it is that the environment in townships is volatile.


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Therefore, it is not suitable for a stable environment for investment.

This morning, the Deputy Minister of Police confessed that SAPS crime intelligence, in doing its duty, couldn’t pick up that violence would break out. So, how on earth do you aim to encourage investment in townships when the very same ANC-led government is failing to do its job in making sure that our townships are stable environments for investment?

HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I don’t think there should be any excuse from the police saying they could not anticipate those events happening. I think they should have the capacity. That is why there is crime intelligence. So, we must insist on the police doing what they are supposed to do. I am sure it’s a matter that needs to be discussed because there cannot be any places in South Africa that are no-go areas. We accept that a township is a very unsafe place, but if we accept it as the norm, that is wrong. We must do something to deal with crime.


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Of course, first of all, we should know who is in the township. What are the foreign nationals doing in the township? We, as a country, must know. However, all we see from this looting of the shops is that these foreign nationals are successful. They are running their businesses in a successful way because they work together. We should be encouraging our people to work together.

Of course, as a country, we are not going to tolerate these kinds of incidents. People are going to be arrested for looting other people’s properties. [Interjections.] People are going to be arrested. They must be arrested!

We will continue encouraging investors to go and invest in townships, and government must make townships safer. Thank you.

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, I hear what the Deputy President is saying in his reply. However, I think that there is an unfair advantage, so, what do we do about that unfair advantage?


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The unfair advantage is found where a lot of these shops ... Take a drive through China Mall, right now, especially. You don’t get a slip. You don’t have any guarantee for what you’ve bought. How are they paying tax? That 15% VAT that is payable and our people have to pay it. They actually don’t pay taxes. You don’t know whether VAT is paid over if there is no system of actually using a cash register or any type of slip. How are we going to deal with those types of problems? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, that is a problem that must be taken up. One can’t have any type of business that is doing business but is not paying VAT. [Interjections.] Well, it’s a normal phenomenon. If I’m selling anything, I’m selling goods, finally, as the owner, I must pay VAT because I make the consumers pay. Finally, I must pay VAT to government, to the SA Revenue Service, Sars.

It is a point that we must investigate. Obviously, it will be difficult to make that business pay VAT if that business is not registered. I am not sure at all if these businesses are registered. It’s something that we must look at, because these businesses are simply behind houses, etc. So, there should be


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an assignment on the part of government to check the status and ownership of all of these businesses. If they are owned by foreign nationals, do they have the necessary documentation to be in the country? Do they have the necessary documentation to operate a business? Are they paying VAT?

It’s a matter that we will investigate. Obviously, if that is the case, then yes, they do have an unfair advantage over those businesses that are operating legally and are paying VAT. Thank you.

Question 23:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The President established a technical team under the leadership of the Director-General in the Presidency to explore various options in the conduct of lifestyle audits.

The team consisting of various key stakeholders in the law enforcement, public service and taxation section is currently seized with the matter. I am advised by the Director-General in the Presidency that a stakeholder roundtable is scheduled to take place by the end of September to finalise


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recommendations that will be presented to the President for his consideration.

Given that this process is still underway, once it is finalised, the public will be informed of its implementation by the President. Thank you!

Ms D CARTER: Thank you, Chairperson. Now, Deputy President, given the recent reports in the media, which raised serious question regarding your integrity and legitimacy to hold public office, such as the report in the New York Times, are you prepared to personally champion and undergo an independent lifestyle audit and to authorise the public release of the outcome thereof; and if not, why not?

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, for the very fact that I am holding a public office, I have got nothing to hide. I am in the public office. [Interjections.] All my life and everything of mine is public knowledge, so I have got nothing to hide.
Thank you.


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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, the Deputy President said that he does not get information from the New York Times, this can’t be true! Because in today’s New York Times there is a letter from an individual called Mr D D Mabuza; who styles himself the Deputy President of South Africa. And it says something very interesting, and here quote from the letter from Mr D D Mabuza: Every democracy need to implore its citizens to look to the future holding accountable its leaders. Can you commit today that you; yourself would be the first to undergo a lifestyle audit?

Secondly, what plans does government have to extend this to local government where Mayor Soul Msimanga who is still the Mayor of Tshwane ... [Applause.] ... has exposed rampant corruption from the former ANC leaders who were operating within that municipality? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not going to comment about the situation in Tshwane. Allow them to sort their issues there. We were not there when they were making those agreements, so if there is fallout, it’s their own business.


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However, as the Deputy President of this Country, I am bound by the laws of this country. Whatever is going to be agreed to by this country, I am part of it, and I am going to do as such. Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you, House Chair. Mr Deputy President, interlinked with the issue of the lifestyle audit, particularly in the public service and with the specific focus on supply chain management and procurement is the issue of vetting, and Cabinet issued a proclamation that all those involved in the supply chain management, SCM, must actually be vetted, but the shortcoming is that it has not happened.
Because the state security agency just has no capacity at all to do, so corruption continues to thrive. So, I would imagine that if we want a credible lifestyle audits, judging by the challenges with vetting – that is not going to happen. So, what guarantees can you give us and South Africans that this is going to be a credible process without any due interference, which is actually a norm, by the way, from government when these matters are taking place – what assurance do we have that there would be integrity and credibility on the outcome of those things because ...


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[Interjections.] ... it seems you are good in hiding things

... Time expired.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chairperson, well, we are not going to pre-empt this process. If you are talking about the vetting – vetting of officials who are appoint in certain specific positions has been happening without failure. But remember that vetting does not give you a guarantee that this official will not do anything wrong.

Vetting simply tells you about the status of that person at that particular point and time. It simply tells you that this person is employable – there are no criminal records, and all that. It does not mean that this person can’t be involved in any criminal activity in the future. It tells you about the past of a person and it can’t tell you about the future of that person. So, vetting is happening since I have joined the national government, any appointment that is made, vetting is a requirement that must accompany the appointment.

However, in terms of the process, let us wait and see the proposals that will be there, look at the institutions that


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will be involved, and they will tell us how the system of lifestyle audit is going to be conducted. I am sure they will be looking at gaps and loopholes that can be exploited by people and close those gaps. Of course, a system that you are starting from scratch can only be perfected over time.

Mr Z R XALISA: Chairperson, Deputy President, there has been a lot of allegations around your susceptibility to criminal conduct during your time as a Mpumalanga Premier, relating to rigging of tenders to benefit you and your cronies, are you willing to personal subject yourself first to a lifestyle audit, and would you support that this be done in an open manner where South Africans can see that sustains their Deputy President? [Interjections.]

Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chair, on a point of order, a member is supposed to make a substantive motion - on the allegation made to the Deputy President by the hon member ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, well on your second comment, I have answered that I am available. The very fact


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that I am here standing, I am going to subject myself to every requirement of this government – at whatever point.

Your fist concern is that there have been allegations of corruptions, murder, all sorts of allegations levelled against me, and here I am and I am still here. I am waiting for someone who would go an open a case and say; you have done
one-two-three, so that I can go there ... [Interjections.] Now, if you move away from allegations into something factual, then I can take you head-on! We can go together to court, taking you head-on I mean I can go court and say; so an so is saying this and we require someone to prove these allegations. [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, on a point of order ...

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On what rule are you rising, hon member?

Mr N S MATIASE: Chair, the Deputy President must know what a figure of speech is – as a former teacher ... [Interjections.]


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The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member on what rule are you ... [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: There are cases similar to the allegations that are raised of him having taken people’s head-on ... [Interjections]

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto) Hon member, that is not a point of order, that is a point of debate, I am going switch off your mike ... [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: And such people are now ... [Inaudible.] six under – such people are six under. He must withdraw – he must withdraw ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is not a point of order, please take your seat, take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.] Were you done hon Deputy President on responding to the member?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I am still responding. I have heard these allegations wherever I am going and I think in this


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House I am responding for the third time saying one and the same thing. I am saying please if you have got any evidence approach any institution and let me be held accountable for what you are alleging.

Now, I think it’s unfair to continue to cast aspersion on the integrity of a person. It is unfair, very unfair. I am ready to face any court of law. If I have done anything wrong let it be. But it is incorrect to continue casting aspersion on a person. That is tantamount to character assassination. [Interjections.]

I don’t know whether I look like a criminal ... [Laughter.]

... do I look like a criminal? Whether I look like a thief ... [Interjections.] Or ... {Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Why are you rising, hon Plouamma?

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I want to help the Deputy President, he looks like a suspect. [Laughter.]


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The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. Hon Plouamma, take your seat. I am waiting for the Deputy President to signal if he has finished.


Ms N K F HLONYANA: Hon House Chair, I want to understand if the Deputy President is going to say that he is going to take the member of the EFF head-on, is that parliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think the Deputy President clarified himself, thank you very much.

Question 24:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chair, on 10-11 May this year, we hosted a 3rd Human Resource Development Council, HRDC, Summit that was attended by similar institutions from the region. The intention was to develop new networks, strengthen existing partnerships and share the latest lessons on how we can transform our economies through education and skills transfer. This is an important development in light of emerging trends


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in global economy especially the implications of what is termed the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

At that Summit, a point was made that the pace of change over the last few years has largely been shaped by technological disruptions and innovations. Such technological disruptions have an equal impact on the current set of jobs in the market. Of course, we have to embrace these global developments. As we do so, our training and skills development must be accelerated to keep up with the pace of change bearing in mind that even jobs that were considered as vocational, are now becoming high tech and require specialised knowledge and skills.

It is important to capitalise on opportunities that would be presented by the Fourth Industrial Revolution to our economy. In so doing, we must be mindful how the first three industrial revolutions impacted the world in general.

During the First Industrial Revolution, the western world moved from mostly agrarian and rural societies into becoming industrial and urban, yet Africa as a continent lagged behind.


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Again, Africa lagged behind when the Second Industrial Revolution that was characterised by a period of growth for pre-existing industries and expansion of new ones, such as steel, oil and electricity.

The Third Industrial Revolution, which was about the advancement in Information Communication Technology, ICT, once more, Africa throughout this period of development, has been left lagging behind.

Therefore, the HRDC Summit looked at how as a country and region, we should position ourselves to mitigate any similar negative impact on economic growth, development and job creation.

The recommendations of the 3rd Human Resource Development Council Summit had several components, including youth unemployment and empowerment where it resolved to take research so that we understand clearly the supply and demand in the labour market. This will enable proper planning and absorption of youth into employment. To this end, the government will ensure that resources intended for youth


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employment are aligned with the current policies for youth development.

On the Fourth Industrial Revolution, it resolved that the potential of future jobs in our country should be explored by relevant departments and institutions of the state. This implies that the Fourth Industrial Revolution and the economy should be the subject of ongoing research, where targeted programmes are developed to exploit its potential by connecting the National Human Resource Development Strategy and sector-based actions.

The Department of Science and Technology is making investment in technological building blocks of this revolution through public-funded science, technology and innovation plan of action. Through smart investments in research and development, the department is supporting South African industry to grow and create more jobs through building scientific, technological and knowledge-based capabilities.

The summit further emphasised the issue of partnerships between all stakeholders especially government, training


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institutions and industry. The executive committee of the HRDC is establishing a standing committee, to monitor the implementation of recommendations between the summits.

The reviewed Human Resource Development Strategy seeks to align itself with the National Development Plan, NDP. This aims to build a skilled and capable workforce to support an inclusive growth path, which would be achieved through an increased access to education and training.

In this regard, the government is working together with various stakeholders in the academia, business sector, organised labour and civil society to realise these objectives. Thank you.

Mr A BOTES: House Chair, South Africa is still faced with stubborn challenges of black poverty and joblessness. I think the Deputy President knows that the recent BRICS summit affirmed that the advent of the Fourth Industrial Revolution present an immediate opportunity for us to put unemployment, in particular, the young people in a gridlock.


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Does the Deputy President consider the South African education system, its curriculum and its richest capability to be sufficient to advance on the footpath towards the Fourth Industrial Revolution? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chair, from where we come from, I think the Department of Education has done a lot in the right direction. Of course, still needs to be done to catch up. We are still grappling with the Third Industrial Revolution, where we are still introducing ICT in our schools. You can see that we are still lagging behind but the pace at which we are moving is generally acceptable as a country.

Of course, we still need to get more of our young people to school. We must ensure that we strengthen early childhood development because that is where you begin to shape a person. We have to minimise dropouts from school. We must do more training on the very scares skills that are required by our economy. So, every education that we do in the country must respond to our challenges. We see the Department of Higher Education gradually responding to our challenges.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What has happened hon Hlengwa? [Interjections.] Yes, its here, I will pass.

Prof B BOZZOLI: House Chair, I am really worried because this is all about education but in Mpumalanga where last time you have been in charge of anything to do with education, we hear that millions of rands for education disappeared into a vortex of suspicious spending, shoddy construction, including in the boarding schools you boasted about just now and brazen corruption to fuel your political ambitions. Can you reassure me that you are no longer as corrupt as you once were? Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chair, well, I was never corrupt

... [Interjections.]

Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chair, I am so sorry. House Chair, I know, I rise on Rule 84. The words used by a member are so unparliamentary to the Deputy President.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, I think you know Rule 84 – unparliamentary language, you referred to


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the Deputy President as being corrupt without any substantive motion. Will you please withdraw that?

Prof B BOZZOLI: I was just referring to what I had read about the past.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, you didn’t

... Hon Bozzoli, please?

Prof B BOZZOLI: In the past not the present.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, please. You didn’t talk about having read. You said it yourself. Can you please withdraw?

Prof B BOZZOLI: House Chair, everybody knows ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, please. I don’t want to debate with you. Can you please withdraw?

Prof B BOZZOLI: No, I won’t withdraw.


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, if you aren’t withdrawing, please, leave the House. Please, leave now before the Deputy President continues.

Prof B BOZZOLI: Can I not him answer?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, no, we don’t need to debate. Hon Bozzoli, please respect our time. We will wait. No, don’t worry.

Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order, House Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On what Rule are you rising, hon member?

Ms M S KHAWULA: Rule 69.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member ... [Interjection.]



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Nk M S KHAWULA: Ukuba bekuyi-EFF lena ngabe senibize ama- bouncer. Kungani nisebenzisa indaba yohlanga?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you are not correct with Rule 69, but I have heard you.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Cha, ngifuna ukwazi nikwenzelani lokho.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Bozzoli, please, leave the House!


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ukuba yithina nje ngabe sesintante moyeni. [Ubuwelewele.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, hon Khawula. Hon Bozzoli, can I have the assistance of the Sergeant-at-arms. [Applause.] Thank you. I will now proceed to the next follow up question to be asked by Plouamma.


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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: House Chair, I want to advice the Deputy President. [Interjections.] Whoever advised you to agree to be Deputy President, hates you with passion. You are out of depth. However, hon Deputy President, the only revolution of the ANC-led government is theft and corruption. My question is: Can a country led by thieves and dishonest people achieve the Fourth Industrial Revolution?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chair, well, I am not aware of a country that is led by thieves. If you mean South Africa is led by thieves, I am saying no. It’s not led by thieves. If you know those thieves, go tell the police to arrest those thieves.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: One of them is Brian Molefe.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Plouamma, I didn’t give you permission to come back ... [Interjections.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I want to him about thieves. I want to tell you about thieves. [Interjections]


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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please, take your seat. You have been answered.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: One of them is the former President, Jacob Zuma ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You have been answered. Please, take your seat.

Ms N K F HLONYANA: Deputy President, in Mpumalanga, where you were a premier for many years, millions have gone missing from educational budget in 2016 and 2017 alone. There was over
R1,5 billion in fruitless, wasteful, irregular and unauthorised expenditure by the Department of Education in Mpumalanga and you didn’t hold anybody to account for this. How are you to hold the Minister of Basic Education accountable for her continued failure to meet her deadlines for infrastructure when you never held those accountable in Mpumalanga government for failure to provide school infrastructure and irregular expenditure? Thank you.


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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chair, well, from the time I was a premier of Mpumalanga, the spending on infrastructure improve year after year. I am confident standing here that our expenditure on infrastructure was the best. The record speaks for itself. I am sure learned people here... information is available. Let’s not abusive information and read it differently.

The information about that province is available to everyone in public. I am not sure why we want to deliberately distort that information. Thank you.

The House adjourned at 16:34.