Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 07 Sep 2017


No summary available.


Thursday, 07 SEPTEMBER 2017


The House met at 14:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


(The late Mr T Z M Khoza)

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party: I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That the House —

notes with sadness the passing of the ANC Member of Parliament, Mr Timothy Zanoxolo Matsebane Khoza, who tragically lost his life following a

car accident near Paarl in the Western Cape on Wednesday, 3 August 2017;

further notes that the 57-year-old dedicated Member of Parliament was travelling to an oversight visit to schools with three other members of the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education, when their vehicle collided with another and overturned;

remembers that Mr Khoza joined Parliament in 2014 as a Member of the National Assembly and served in the Portfolio Committees on Basic Education and Small Business Development;

recalls that he was a devoted public representative with untiring commitment and dedication to the service of the people of South Africa;

further recalls that he was a former school teacher and principal, who began his activism in 1986 during the Release Mandela Campaign;

understands that he served as the ANC branch secretary of Ward 23 in Ehlanzeni Region, Mpumalanga from 1998 until his death;

further understands that he was also a dedicated and active member of the South African Democratic Teachers’ Union, Sadtu;

acknowledges the sterling contributions that he made for the advancement of our country’s democracy;

further acknowledges his hard work and personal sacrifices to ensure that learners of South Africa receive quality education;

believes that he served his country with great distinction and dedication; and

conveys its heartfelt condolences to his wife Cynthia, family and friends.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, it was with sadness the passing of an ANC Member of Parliament, Mr Timothy Zanoxolo Khoza, who tragically lost his life following a car accident near Paarl, in the Western Cape on Wednesday, 03 August 2017.

The 57-year-old dedicated Member of Parliament, MP, was travelling to an oversight visit to schools with three other members of the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education when their vehicle collided with another and overturned.

Mr Khoza joined Parliament in 2014 as a member of the National Assembly and served in the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education and Small Business Development. He was a devoted public representative with untiring commitment and dedication to the service of the people of South Africa. He was a former school teacher and principal, who began his activism in 1986 during the Release Mandela Campaign.

He served as the ANC branch secretary of ward 23 in Ehlanzeni Region, Mpumalanga, from 1998 until his death.

He was also a dedicated and an active member of the Sadtu.

This House acknowledges the sterling contribution that he made for the advancement of our country’s democracy. We acknowledge his hard work and personal sacrifices to ensure that the learners of South Africa receive quality education.

This House believe that he served his country with great distinction and dedication.  The House conveys its heartfelt condolences to his wife Cynthia, family and friends. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker and colleagues, hon Tim Khoza died on an oversight trip of the parliamentary Basic Education Committee as you have just heard. He died serving his country and serving this Parliament and we want to honour him here today.

Who was he as a person? He was an educator. In 1985, he began offering private lessons in Maths and Science, teaching pupils. In 1995, he obtained his first BA degree

in Education from Unisa. He then obtained Federal Directorate of Education, FDE, in computer education in 2001, from the then Rand Afrikaanse University.

He achieved a Bachelor of Education in Management and Leadership from the University of Johannesburg in 2007 and a Masters of Education from the University of Johannesburg in 2011, together with an Advanced Certificate in Education in that same year.

In 1995, he finally became a principal at the Mbambiso Secondary School in Mpumalanga. He was a principal of that same school for almost 20 years and taught pupils, educators and teachers for two decades before being elected in 2014 as an MP for the National Assembly.

He joined the education committee in May 2015. I properly met him for the first time about eight weeks ago only on that education committee. He had been a Member of Parliament before that on this side of the House but we never interacted before. I finally met him face to face eight weeks ago in the committee, the day that I arrived when I was moved to the education committee and he was

one of the first people who warmly greeted me, welcome me to the committee and invited me to participate.

What was he like as a person? Firstly, I would like to say that he was an honourable gentleman. We call each other honourable in this House but not everybody that we call honourable is really an honourable gentleman or a lady. We have seen lots of exceptions to the title honourable. I can truly say that Tim Khoza was an honourable gentleman. He treated people with respect. [Applause.]

Secondly, I have asked people who knew him longer than I do and everybody you ask, tells you that he was friendly and kind to everyone he met. That was certainly my experience. I was speaking earlier at the invitation of the ANC and the family at the memorial service in the Old Assembly and I pointed out how he was kind to me on the very day of that accident. He arrived at the bus before anyone of us. The ladies were in the bathroom doing what ladies do and he was sitting in the backseat. I arrived to get into the bus and he called me to come to sit by him today, I want to chat to you. I sat and chatted the

journey as we left. He reached out to me ... and I was just saying in the memorial service that you never know
... the fact that he was kind to me may have saved my life that day because I ended up sitting in a safer seat in that bus.

We didn’t know that the accident was going to happen and we couldn’t predict what the outcome was. That kindness potentially might have saved my life. He died sitting next to me and the other ladies in the bus were injured more severely than I was, including the driver. In fact just that kindness may very well have saved my life and it certainly saved me from more serious injuries, I am quite certain of that.

I thank him for that kindness and I just thank god that the rest of us managed to escape from that terrible situation. As his family are sitting there in the gallery, I just want to greet them and say that we extend our condolences to you. He was a special man that we knew here and I am sure that he was a special person to you.

He is survived by his wife of 17 years, Cynthia, who is with us today, four children, three brothers and four sisters. From all the political parties in Parliament today, including my own, wish to extend our sincere condolences to you. May god be with you. We have fond memories of your husband, father and brother. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Deputy Speaker ...


... Ndi masiari. [Good afternoon]


On behalf of the EFF, I wish to send our condolences to the family and friends of hon Timothy Zanoxolo Matsebane Khoza. It is sad that while carrying out of his parliamentary duties mandated to him by the people of South Africa, hon Khoza lost his life.

He served with me in the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development. He used to sit next to me. He left

a vacuum in our life in the committee. We shared a lot about politics and family matters with him. He was so humbly and easily accessible. He was a soldier and died at work and we will continue soldiering on.

As the EFF, we will remember his memory and services he gave to the people of South Africa. Our condolences to the family of hon Khoza, the relatives and the ANC. May his soul rest in peace. [Applause.]

Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, the late hon Timothy Khoza was a very humble person; he was a loving, peaceful and passionate person about education. One may ask how I knew him, because I am a new member in Parliament. But when I recently moved in to my parliamentary residence in Pelican Park on a Sunday afternoon in July, hon Khoza was the one who assisted me to get my luggage into my house. We had a very short engagement that day and I quickly realised that he was of very fine character with a good sense of humour. We even greeted one another in Xitsonga because hon Khoza ...


... a a vulavula Xitsonga, hikwalaho na mina na xi tiva katsongo.


On the following day, the Monday we both left Pelican Park for the week long Basic Education Portfolio Committee’s oversight, here in the Western Cape. On the fateful morning of our third day of oversight, Wednesday, we shared breakfast together and little did I know that it was the last breakfast to share with him. Honourable Khoza passed away in the line of duty, while we were on our way to the schools in Paarl in a tragic car accident.

On behalf of the IFP ...


...         hi rila na nsati wa yena, vana, ndyangu, vanghana, hinkwawo maxaka na Swirho swa Palamende.


and all children comrades and Members of Parliament.

Hon Deputy Speaker in the book of Psalm 34:18 in the Bible, David says that: ‘The Lord is close to the broken- hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit’. Rest in peace my beloved brother till we meet again on the glorious resurrection day. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Deputy Speaker, Members of Parliament, distinguished guests, the Khoza family ...


egameni le-NFP sithanda ukudlulisa emndenini kaKhoza ukudabuka kwethu kakhulu futhi sikhalela neqembu lakhe uKhongolose elilahlekelwe yishotsha langempela.

Umhlonishwa uKhoza benginaye ekomidini lamabhizinisi amancane. Kuningi engikufunde kuye ...


... he was such a gentleman ...


... eyindoda ehlonipha kakhulu. Ngamangala uma ngifika emzini wakhe ngathola ukuthi uphathiswe okwenkosi. Sasine

komidi lephothifoliyo eMpumalanga, sathi uma sesizoqeda wasimema emzini wakhe nomama wakwakhe ukuthi sizodla isidlo santambama. Sathi uma sifika ngabona ukuthi umndeni wakhe wonke wama ngezinyawo kanye nezingane zakhe wonke umuntu wabona ukuthi sengathi kufike inkosi.

Sibonga kakhulu kumndeni osiboleke yena, nami ngokwami ngifunde okukhulu kuyena. Kuningi ebengishayela ngakho, sikhuluma sixoxa. Ngithe uma ngizwa ukuthi kwenzeke le nto, ngamshayela ucingo lwakhe lwalukhala lungabanjwa.


I then thought ...


... mhlawumbe usathukiwe. Kanti ngimfonela nje akasekho.

Siyathanda ukuthi umndeni uqine. Uthi uJobe, Johova ungakwenza konke, icebo lwakho alinakuphikiswa umuntu.

Siyathanda nokusho ukuthi iqembu lakhe liqine, ikakhulukazi nekomidi lethu. Ngiyazi ukuthi usihlalo wayeshayeke kakhulu, umama uBhengu. Sizoqhubeka siyibambe

ngoba uKhoza ubezinikele kakhulu ekuthuthukiseni abantu abangena lutho. Ubengayena umholi owayekhuluma njalo ngokuzicebisa yena. Ubekhuluma ngokuthi osomabhizinisi abancane kanye namabhizinisi asebenza ngokubambisana kufanele athuthukiswe kanjani.

Into ebeyizonda kunayo yonke bekuyiziphathimandla kanye nezisebenzi zikahulumeni ezingamavila. Ngaso sonke isikhathi ubethanda ukuthi nanoma uhulumeni angasebenza kangakanani kodwa uma sinezisebenzi zikahulumeni kanye neziphathimandla eziwenzi umsebenzi abantu abayiboni inthuthuko. Siyacela-ke ukuthi ngokukuhamba kukaKhoza kanye izisebenzi zakithi zikahulumeni zibe-patriotic, ziwusebenzele umphakathi, ziphakele ngezinsiza ukuze kubanakale ukuthi siyakwenza esikushoyo.

Sithi umndeni mawuphole, uNkulunkulu ukhona. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

Mr N L S NKWANKWA: Deputy Speaker and hon members, it was with great sadness that we learned of the passing of Mr Timothy known as “TZ” Khoza following a tragic car accident that left the other three colleagues seriously

injured in the line of duty, serving the nation. As a result on behalf of the United Democratic Movement, I wish to extend our warmest message of condolences to his wife, usisi Cynthia, his family, the ANC and friends.

We would like to however, remember that while we continue to mourn the untimely passing of Mr Khoza we should celebrate the extraordinary life of this remarkable man who lived it ensuring that uqhuba [he progresses] with the realisation of the right to a basic education, for abantwana bethu [our children].


Ndifuna ukuba ndichaphazele kuqala ukudibana kwam naye...


... one of the things that stroke me about hom was his humility. Every time when you spoke to the late hon Khoza


...ebesithi ngoku ingoyena mntu...


... had a monumental contribution to the struggle for freedom. But he would elevate you to the point ...


... ibe ngathi umkhulu kunaye ngoku uziqondayo ukuba umncinci kunaye.


He did that thing consistently on a daily basis.


Ubusithi xa uthetha naye ufumanise ukuba uyilaa mbewu yala ANC siyaziyo, le siphuma kuyo eyayisithi intobeko iza kuqala kunesikhokelo. Ndifuna ukuphinda ndithi...


when I was talking to Ms Majeke earlier ...


... oyena mntu obesebenza nohloniphekileyo uKhoza ngakumbi uthi uMama uMajeke ohloniphekileyo uKhoza ebengasokuze aphazame ukungathumeli imiyalezo

eneentliziyo nezibonakalisa uthando koogxa bakhe kwikomiti yeMicimbi yeSebe mihla le.


But to you, my sister Cynthia and the family, Ms Majeke said that the day before the hon Khoza passed away in that tragic accident, he was busy going through the photos of his wife and family whilst they were driving around Gugulethu.


Kwaye uMama uMajeke uthi ebemane embuza ukuba kutheni na le nto eza kuhlale ejongene neefoto. Xa ephundula uthi aba bantu...


... they make me who I am and they define me. They are important to me. [Applause.]


Ndiza kuthi xa ndiza kuhlala phantsi ndithi thina sinoxanduva lokuqhubekeka phambili ingakumbi kula maSebe eMfundo esisiSeko nelokuPhuhliswa kwaMashishini

asaKhasayo ebezinikele kakhulu kuwo, ndisithi sishiyeke ngasemva. Okokugqibela ndifuna ukuthi menze Thixo aphumle ngonaphakade, umkhanyisele ngokhanyiso olungacimiyo.
Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Deputy Speaker, Shakespeare noted that, I quote:

Well, every one can master a grief but he that has it.

We as Cope, convey to Comrade Khoza’s family our sympathies at his tragic passing. We all were shocked when we learnt of the accident and that one of our Members of Parliament, MPs, had tragically lost his life whilst on an oversight visit with the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education following a car accident near Paarl in the Western Cape on 03 August.

I must indicate that I knew him very well. As a former school teacher and principal, he was an active and dedicated member of the SA Democratic Teachers’ Union, Sadtu, who began his activism in 1986. I must say that I

worked with him in that union which I led for 12 years as president. He again, belonged to the trade union federation, the Congress of SA Trade Union, Cosatu, where we worked together when one was still the president for those nine years. His coming here to Parliament was the continuation of his contribution.

Whilst we express our condolences we can only imagine the grief that the family is experiencing at his tragic passing. I must emphasise that although we may differ politically as various organisations, but when it comes to the death of people, particularly those who are contributing to the taking forward of the people of our country, we’ve got to move forward together.

I quote again:

Well, every one can master a grief but he that has it.

We are therefore saying, rest in peace, my comrade. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP we would like to express our deepest condolences to the Khoza family and to the friends of the late hon Timothy Khoza as well as to the ANC. Other members have spoken very eloquently about the hon Khoza’s sterling work both here and in the broader South African society and in education and we would like to support those sentiments expressed.

We were deeply shocked when we heard of the tragic news of a car accident near Paarl on 03 August whilst members of the Basic Education portfolio committee were on their way to conduct an oversight visit. This accident shows how very vulnerable we as MPs can be. As we all travel frequently and on oversight and other trips, we must indeed do more to ensure the safety of Members of Parliament and indeed all citizens on our roads.

This tragic incident also illustrates how fleeting life can be. Which of those hon members would have thought things would turn out so tragically as they left for the oversight visit that morning?

In the Book of James Chapter 4, we are asked the question:

How do you know what your life will be like tomorrow?

He adds that:

Your life is like the morning fog, it is here for a while, and then it is gone.

James is indeed right, life is like the morning mist that soon vanishes, it is short and uncertain. There are no guarantees about tomorrow, let alone next year or in five or 10 years. If we ignore this lesson, we will not live our lives properly in the light of eternity. We need to make our plans in life and live our lives according to God’s purposes and commands and to make sure that we are in a right relationship with the Lord Jesus and have repented of our sins.

Life is short and death is a certainty. Let us learn from hon Khoza. It was such a testimony of his kindness as

expressed by hon Ollis when he invited him to sit next to him. As hon Ollis said: “That kindness may have saved my life.” Are we as members of this House extending that love and kindness? Are we spreading love, forgiveness and reconciliation wherever we go in this House and indeed in our nation, which is desperate for this? Let us learn from the example of hon Khoza’s life.

Lastly, we pray that our Heavenly Father will comfort hon Khoza’s wife Cynthia, the family, children and friends at this time of bereavement and we trust for that the love of our Heavenly Father to surround them at this time. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, we have come here to celebrate the life that has been. One of our greatest writers once said:

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

Hon Khoza did achieve his greatness indeed. I was serving with him in the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education and he was a man of great intelligence.

We, as the AIC, convey our heartfelt condolences to his family. The hon Khoza died in harness, that is, in the line of performing his duties for Basic Education in particular and Parliament in general. We know very well that it is very painful to lose one of your beloved, however, time had come because there is time for everything – time to be born and time to die.

As an ANC activist, Comrade Khoza has contributed a lot in the struggle for the liberation of this country and he was looking forward to the complete freedom of the African child as a former teacher and a school principal. His dedication and leadership should serve as good example and proper legacy that should be followed. His wife Cynthia, children, friends and other relatives, should therefore feel comfortable and proud that Comrade Khoza has been a good son of the family, good husband, father and he has done good for the family and the nation.

We know very well that each and every one of us is going to meet his or her fate, but we don’t know the date and time. It is therefore important that we get ourselves ready for the journey and keep the following in our minds as quoting from John 2:28-

... remain in Him so that when He appears, we may have boldness.

Again from Colossians 3:

Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth.

This is very much relevant. We know that God will put death to all earthly things, even to death itself.

Once again, his wife, children, the whole family, the ANC and friends should feel comfortable that you had amongst yourselves a great man of his calibre. It is relevant therefore to say that those whom God loves die. He was never meant to live forever because he is not immortal.

What a good maths and science teacher he was where there are rare skills.

May his soul rest in peace. Thank you. [Applause.]

Adv B T BONGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers present, hon Members of Parliament, comrades and friends, members of the Khoza Family, in particular Cynthia Khoza, the wife of Comrade T Z Khoza, the sister Thulisile Khoza who happens also to be here, an Executive Mayor of the Nkomazi Municipality, in Mpumalanga province and members, South Africa and her people has lost a selfless servant, a leader and a soldier who died with his boots on and a spear in his own hand.

To the Khoza family we would want to say as the African National Congress that your loss is not your loss, it is the loss to the people of South Africa. It is the loss to all of us as Members of Parliament and it is a loss to the African National Congress, an organisation that he dearly loved. During this time we refer to the Holy Book, the Bible. In the Book of Ecclesiastes chapter 3, there

is a verse there, if you read the King James Version, it says: “There is time for everything”. If you read the Xitsonga Version it says:


Xin’wana na xin’wana xi na nkarhi wa xona.


The Zulu Version says:


“Konke kunezikhathi sakho ngaphansi komthunzi welanga”


I think we will find comfort as the family and all of us from what were said in that book which I have just mentioned. Mr T Z Khoza, as he was passionately known, was a trained educational specialist with a practical experience in the teaching fraternity. In the work that he had to do in the Higher Education Portfolio Committee, he had to demonstrate that his oversight got one of the distinctions that the people of South Africa needed. He had clarity of thought, very critical mind and he was

much grounded in the education sphere. His understanding of the revolutionary theory and practice has made some of us to understand his teachings that he taught us.

I speak with the deep regret that he has left a void in the National Assembly. I think all of us like I said that during this time we must find comfort in the Holy Book.
Apostle Paul raised very critical issues as he was writing to ...


... ibandla labaseKorinte uthi umPhostoli uPhawuli kuleli bandla ngoba uma elibhalela kwakuthiwa ngalesosikhathi ebandleni labaseKorinte bekuthi uma kuvele isifo bese bakhale bazilimaze ngokwabo [themselves] uthi, ningakhali nizilimaze njengabantu abangenalo ulwazi labantu abahambayo. Uphinde uyabhala umPhostoli uPhawuli ubhalela abaseThesalonika ukhuluma ngendaba enzima uthi, uma leli dokodo leli esikulo lidilika sikhona isakhiwo esingakhiwa ngezandla. [Ihlombe.] Manje ...


... To all of us and the family we are saying that ...


... Lesi sakhiwo uma sesihambile kukhona isakhiwo esingakhiwanga ngesandla lesi okumele sigxile [concentrate] kuso ngezikhathi zonke.


The Chief Whip of the Majority Party at the funeral he had the following to say and I quote:

We have won the motion of no confidence by 198 votes and if Comrade T Z was alive surely we would have got 199.

I think this demonstrates the integrity and the honesty he was able to carry himself with within the organisation. He understood and he taught us that the democratic centralism that however different view that we have when the upper structure has taken a decision we have got to abide with that decision as a lower structure. It is informed by that very background that he chose to stay in the branch even if he had master’s

degrees and I should say this that he was still studying even now. He was one of those that were to be congratulated by Parliament in the few years to come to get his doctor’s degree.

Comrades and friends again, let me quote the Chief Whip of the Majority Party today at the memorial service he said and I quote:

For the first time since 1994, we have had a Member of Parliament who died on duty. That poses a challenge to all of us as members, Parliament and as an institution with what do you want to do with this. This is for the first time and is historic. We suggest furthermore as we continue that we may have to think of building a monument that will explain how this tragedy happened and how do we want to deal with as to go forward as Members of Parliament.

Comrade T Z taught us about a lot of things. I will mention one, he taught us about love. He came to us because he was teacher, he always wanted to teach us about love and he came and asks us the first day. What is

love? We had to explain. He said that “I’m not satisfied”, I will come tomorrow. When he came tomorrow he said: “I read about three books about love”. None of them are saying what love is. All they say is what the things that are done by love are. I had to revert back to the Bible. Again Apostle Paul spoke about love. Apostle Paul when he spoke about love he also did not say what love is, but he would tell you that love is not proud, it does not do this and it does this and so on.

He then said that I came closest when I read the book of John because John said that God is love. These are the teachings that we got from hon T Z Khoza. [Applause.] He joined the Small Businesses and his passions were raised by hon President Jacob Zuma, His Excellency, about the radical economic transformation. He loved that portfolio committee on the basis of the radical economic transformation. He always wanted us to recite what it means today. He always said this means that we need to change the structure of the economy, its management, the system, the control and its pattern in favour of the majority of the people. [Applause.] That is the

recitation that he wanted us always to say as we are dealing with this matter.

I know that most of you colleagues or friends and brothers you may think that our brother, our comrade left injured, but ...


... nginawo umfanekiso wakhe evela, u-Oliver Tambo wamunika indawo yakhe yokuhlala, athi, umzamo omuhle uwuzamile, ukuthi umzamo omuhle uwuzamile.


... You fought a good fight.


Uqgatso ulufezile!


You have run the race. Who have run the race?


Hamba kahle Zanoxolo Timothy Khoza.


Etlela hi ku rhula Timothy Khoza.


Send our regards to Comrade O R Tambo, Comrade Chris Hani, Comrade Nelson Mandela, Comrade Walter Sisulu, Lilian Ngoyi, Comrade Peter Mokaba, Mthandazo Ngobeni, and Sindiso Magaxa as he joins you there. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please join us in welcoming and appreciating the presence in the gallery of the family as already mentioned for joining us at his work place when they could otherwise be at home mourning. Thank you very much for your presence. [Applause.] Members, that concludes the Speaker’s List on this matter. I take it that there are no objections to the motion being adopted. Will all members please rise to observe a moment of silence in memory of T Z M Khoza? The presiding officers associate themselves with the motion;

the condolences of the House will be conveyed to the Khoza family.

Hon members, we now move to questions to Ministers in the Peace and Security Cluster. The next item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Ministers in the Peace and Security Cluster. Members may press their talk buttons on their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question. The first question has been asked by hon S P Mhlongo to the Minister of Police. Minister!

Motion agreed to, members standing.

Cluster 1

Question 163:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, the purpose of an arrest, is to ensure that an accused person attends court. The specified person was not arrested on the day when the incident was reported to the police due to an incomplete investigation at that stage since several

witness statements had not been obtained. The person, however, appeared in the Randburg Magistrate Court, on 10 August 2017 and the case against him was remanded to 13 September 2017, for further investigation. Thank you.

Mr S P MHLONGO: Minister, do you think it is acceptable for someone who has admitted to assaulting a woman to walk free. If not, why did it take so much time to take Mduduzi Manana to court? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: We have to observe the law and the case in relation to the person mentioned was subjected to a rigorous process of investigation. The changing from a common assault to grievously body harm, GBH, also had effects. The fact that a person can admit in whatever way does not dictate in terms of law enforcement that the particular individual will be subjected to an unlawful process. So, the law has been observed to the latter, irrespective of the status of the individual. Thank you.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, I think you will agree with me that the key to addressing violence against women is to

build stronger deterrence against it because potential perpetrators need to know they will face commensurate and proportional reaction from our law enforcement and the criminal justice system, from the moment charges are laid to the securing of convictions.

Now, considering that the police were unable or unwilling to arrest hon Manana, to name him, in that assault case: What hope is there for the parents of the approximately
30 girls who have been allegedly impregnated by their teachers at the Bothithong High School near Kuruman in the Northern Cape over the last three years, without a single teacher being arrested? What message is sent when the SA Police Service fails to act against Mr Manana and sexual predators such as those at the Bothithong High School?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: The SA Police Service has acted on the instance of Mr Manana. As we speak now, Mr Manana was arrested and appeared in court, and he is going to appear again on 13 September 2017. What the hon member is talking about is something that has already come to pass in relation to the individual concerned. The SA Police

Service has acted without fear or favour on the case of Mr Mduduzi Manana.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: I am sorry, Deputy Speaker. In fact, I wanted just to press in order to register my attendance. Unfortunately, I pressed a wrong button.

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Minister, the assault by a member of this House and a member of the executive seems to belie the expressions we are always making against the harassment of women and children. Would you agree with this view; and would you give reason for your answer?
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: The member you are referring to, who is an hon member of this House, Mduduzi Manana, has been arrested, appeared in court and charged. [Interjections.] Subsequent to that, he resigned as a member of the executive, which is to the knowledge of us all. This explains the ferocity of the matter that he is facing, and at the same time, the steps that he had to take voluntarily over and above the steps that have been

taken by the state to ensure that we address the matter that is before the courts as we speak.

I think what you are referring to is a matter that is an aftermath. The individual concerned has equally acted to show that the matter is very serious and he regrets the act in itself. So, as we speak at the present moment, we are not speaking from a position of abstract. We speak from a position of the knowledge that actions have been taken and the matter is before the courts.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order based on Rule 922: The hon Minister is misleading the House. The hon Manana has never been arrested by the police. If he has been, can he please give us a venue, the time and the date of when he was arrested? And, if the ANC take women’s issues that seriously, why has he not been fired from Parliament; why is he still a member of this House? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do you want to respond to that, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I thought that was a comment. Do you want me to respond? [Interjections.]



The MINISTER OF POLICE: He’s got a member who has touched another member’s private parts and he is still in Parliament! [Interjections.]

Mr S N SWART: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: That is now below the belt! Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s give hon Mabija an opportunity to ask a question. Hon Mabija!

Ms L MABIJA: It was a mistake!


Mr J J MAAKE: Deputy Speaker, I think that has been a mistake which I did at hon Mabija’s microphone. Hon

Minister, I am happy that you clearly explain the purpose of arresting a person. It is to avoid flight and intimidation of witnesses. My question is: Does every case warrant an arrest? Is there any favouritism that happened in this particular case? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: There is no favouritism in relation to Mduduzi Manana’s case. The matter is before the courts and he will answer for himself in court. There is no favouritism, hon Deputy Speaker and hon member.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Question 158:

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the question asks whether the department has managed to improve its turnaround time and processes for the issuing of identity documents, IDs, passports and birth certificates; and if so, what the relevant details are.

In brief, yes, I must say the department has worked very hard and developed a turnaround strategy since 2007. Some of the interventions that have been put in place have brought about significant and remarkable changes. For

instance, we now take from 54 working days for first issues of identity documents compared to the 120 days we took previously. We now take 47 working days to reissue identity documents.

The department has also been able to maintain a consistent improvement in the issuing of smartcards since the implementation of the live-capture system. In 2015- 16, we had a turnaround time of 22 calendar days. In 2016-17, we have had an improvement in the turnaround time of 30 working days for ID smartcards. The turnaround
time for issuing of passports has also improved since the implementation of live-capture. The department is now able to issue a passport within 13 working days.

The current turnaround time for the issuing of a birth certificate is eight working days. Birth certificates for newborn babies are now issued on the spot. About
2 million birth records have been premodified and the certificate can be issued on the spot, upon application.

Furthermore, the department has embarked upon the digitisation of records - 5,8 million images of birth

records - and shall soon roll out this project to modify certificate applications on demand. Thank you.

Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Deputy Speaker, through you: Well done, Minister. [Interjections.] That is a great, great achievement since 1994. Indeed, we know what it took to get an ID, if you got it at all. [Interjections.] Let us look at rural areas, hon Minister. Can people in rural areas get smartcards? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the hon member is touching on something very sensitive. We are committed to it and working very hard to ensure that whatever privileges our citizens in the urban areas have, we are able to access these in the rural areas, as well.

As a way of making up for the budgetary constraints we have at the moment, we rely on mobile units, which help to access people in rural areas. This is basically due to the old apartheid infrastructure of Home Affairs which catered for big cities and urban areas. [Interjections.] However, through the use of technology, we are hoping that more and more people will access similar privileges.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, I thought the buttons there were not working. Let me start by congratulating the Department of Home Affairs, once again ... [Interjections.] ... specifically, the Umgeni Road branch.

I was at the SADC conference in the Seychelles and got a call that some member was trying to leave the country but had a problem. Because of an unabridged birth certificate, Seychelles Airlines wouldn’t allow them to board. From there, I contacted Home Affairs in Umgeni Road on a Sunday night. They told me to tell the people to come in at 07:30 on the Monday. By 10:00, they had the documentation to travel, and they travelled that same day. Congratulations go to Home Affairs, Umgeni Road. [Applause.]

I think that Home Affairs is doing a fantastic job. However, my concern is the issue of refugees and asylum seekers, who have to travel from different parts of the country to Pretoria and often spend long hours there only to be turned away because the computers are not working.

[Interjections.] Please advise what will be done about that. [Time expired.]

Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker, I hate to interrupt, but I believe that hon member there is misleading the House.
Home Affairs is not open on a Sunday night. [Interjections.] It is impossible.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s not get embroiled in that debate; and may I appeal to you not to shout down anybody whose views we disagree with. [Interjections.] This is Parliament, so could you please not do that?
Yesterday, we correctly agreed with a member of the DA here that when some members speak, the manner in which this is done to them is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to everyone. Let’s not do that, please. It is just simple decency.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Uxolo kancane Sekela Somlomo engimhloniphayo, ngiyabonga baba. Cha [No] bengithi mina awuke uzame ukutshela umhlonishwa lo ukuthi sibe nebhadi safika kungasashintsha kwamaqembu ezombusazwe [floor

crossing] ngoba ngiyabona hayi uyazihlupha impela, akusekho asazokuthola.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...


... ngicela uhlale phansi, ayikho lento oyikhulumayo.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh! Sorry, sorry, hon member, my apologies. The Minister must first respond and then you may speak.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Really? Alright.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. With regard to the acknowledgement of improvement at the Umgeni Road branch, I think we all appreciate the progress made. There are challenges. We cannot claim easy victories. However, what is important now is that one finds the names of officials displayed on

the doors, which ensures that anyone who has difficulties can access any of the senior officials.

In addition, the department has come up with special projects to encourage our officials, our officers to realise that they are the leaders “ke baetapele”This has really helped people to internalise the values of Batho Pele and they are much more committed. There are still challenges in some areas but there are hotspots of good progress.

With regard to the second question about refugees, asylum seekers and centres, I must say, South Africa has come up with the Desmond Tutu Refugee Reception Centre. This has been evaluated by human rights bodies, not only nationally, but also by the internal one, and has been rated very highly. I know that it’s been identified as one of the centres which will look at developing models to assess people at the port of entry.

This means that people are not going to go to one centre. There are refugee centres in big provinces like the Western Cape, Gauteng, and so on. What is important,

however, is the use of technology and the observance of their rights, which is a key responsibility of any government. Thank you.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, is there any promise you can make or guarantee you can give that the tendency of the computers in Home Affairs that are always crashing, resulting in people waiting for two to three days to make these applications, will be addressed; and what efforts have you made to prevent the corruption that is taking place in the Department of Home Affairs?
Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the hon member would like me to guarantee that we will be connected at all times. In part, the question of connectivity has a lot to do with the status of broadband roll-out in South Africa and the general strength of our networks.

We are connected through established technologies controlled by the same, State Information Technology Agency, Sita, and other service providers. We continue to

work with service providers who will ensure that we improve, at the very least.

We are aware that some of the people who go to these centres will have spent a lot of money. When they find they cannot get the documents they want, they have to spend more and more money when they are already battling to pay for our services. So, we remain committed, working within the whole government system, to ensure that technology is improved and our people are able to get better service.

With regard to the question of corruption, we have a division, the Anti-Corruption Unit, which works within the whole cluster. The National Anti-Corruption Strategy was launched by Minister Radebe. The advantage of working within a co-ordinated structure like that is that we have access to the police and justice.

What is remarkable is that we have had many people who have been arrested recently, through the support of the police. We continue to monitor the trends within the

cluster and we are hoping that that will send out a clear message. Thank you.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, while the Gupta citizenship was fast-tracked and labelled as “exceptional circumstances”, thousands of South Africans still do not have the basic documentation of citizenship - identity documents. What is your plan, Minister, to fast-track addressing the backlog in identity documents and travel documents of South African citizens who are not being labelled as having “exceptional circumstances” or who are not close to Mr Zuma or Duduzane Zuma? What is your plan? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, it is important to give clarity on some sections of the
SA Citizenship Act, Act 88 of 1995, as amended in 2010. The Act states that “notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in subsection 1(c), the Minister may, under exceptional circumstances, grant a certificate of naturalisation as a South African citizen to an applicant who does not comply with the requirements”. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: What’s the exception?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In this particular case, which the hon member refers to, the consideration to grant citizenship to the family was based on the business, investment and social partnerships ... [Interjections.] These included commitments to social partnerships with 75 schools in the North-West province, amounting to R1 million; and a commitment to job creation in the form of 7 000 permanent employees throughout the variety of family companies.

It’s important to clarify this issue because this is not the first family or person to be granted this special citizenship. There are quite a number of them. Over the years, Ministers have been doing it.

With regard to the South African situation, I agree with the hon member. We have to accelerate our efforts in the issuing of ID smartcards because the green IDs are subject to fraudulent acts and all sorts of manipulation. So, to secure the national registry of our identity system, we have to ensure that all South Africans have

access to them as soon as possible. For each budget term, we must allocate a sufficient amount to achieve that goal.

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: The Minister has really not given an adequate answer to the question put before her. Can she commit to a date by which South Africans will be placed under “exceptional circumstances” for the conditions and application for citizenship ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, no. No.

Mr N S MATIASE: Can she please answer that question?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. That is not allowed. The hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans?

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Minister didn’t answer my question. You created that precedent in this House, yesterday, for an ANC member. If a Minister does not hear a question, it is then asked

again. So, if the Minister didn’t hear my question, allow me to ask it again ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. [Interjections.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... and then, perhaps we will get an answer.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: What is she going to do to ensure that South African citizens will also get identity documents? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: That is simple. She must give us a plan. Why ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Why were the Guptas prioritised? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Is it because they were close to Zuma? Why?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Take your seat. You are introducing ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No! You are forever doing this.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are introducing ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No! She must answer!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are introducing ...

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: South Africans are watching and they are ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat and sit down, please! [Interjections.] Are you threatening me with what you’re saying? [Interjections.] Are you out of your order? [Laughter.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: You need to be consistent in your rulings. [Interjections.] You need to be consistent because if it happens to an ANC member, you allow that person to ask the question again

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... but if it happens to the opposition, it’s another story.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We are not on a trip here to save our jobs, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: If you are on a trip to save yours, we are not on the same trip. We are here, representing South Africans ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Ms M O MOKAUSE: ... and if you are representing Zuma and your party, it doesn’t work like that for us.

Mr T RAWULA: On a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I think you are completely out of order. Completely out of order! A ruling has been made and you are challenging that ruling in the House. That is not allowed. [Interjections.] I will not accept this next time. [Interjections.]

Mr T RAWULA: Deputy Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 31: For the record, Deputy Speaker, we want to register our dissatisfaction and we will be referring this matter to the Rules Committee by saying we are not happy with the response that we have received, because the Minister has not explained ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Hon member, please, please ...

Mr T RAWULA: ... [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have indicated your intention. Do not go into it. Please do that - I agree with you. Do that. Do it, please, hon member. [Interjections.] That is a useful intervention. Take it up there. Take it up there.

Hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, the hon Skosana has asked you a question. Please take it.

Question 144:


Speaker, I thank the hon member Skosana for the question. The SA National Defence Force has established various bilateral operations and liaison forums with countries with which South Africa shares land borders in order to address common matters and collaborate on cross-border patrols.

Three of these countries – Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Swaziland – are fully operational and meet on a quarterly basis. As part of this work, the SA National Defence Force has also exchanged communication systems with each of these partners to ensure improved monitoring and

communication. More work is ongoing to establish similar structures with the other remaining countries in the neighbourhood. Thank you.

Mr J J SKOSANA: Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for her response. My follow-up question is the following: Did the operational liaison forum by the SA National Defence Force and the defence forces of Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia, and Lesotho manage to create cohesion and unity and forge common consensus in relation to promoting security, peace and stability within the SADC region? Thank you.


Speaker, we have sound and positive relations with all our neighbouring countries – in fact, with the entire SADC region – even though we have these liaison forums with the three neighbouring countries.

Of course, there is commitment to ensuring peace, security and stability within our region. Not only that, I am sure you are aware of something called a regional maritime strategy so that, if anything were to happen to

any of our member states in the coastal areas, we would all move in and do something about it. Right now, we have ways of securing ourselves. In the Mozambique Channel, you will have Tanzania, South Africa, and Mozambique. On the western coast, you have Angola, etc ...


... ubheka phezulu. [... going up.]


So, we are doing everything to ensure there is peace and there is proper collaboration and co-ordination of our activities, including joint patrols on the land borders. Thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister: Given the commitments you made and the commitments that we have towards our neighbouring countries, we know that we require at least 22 rather than the current 15 companies patrolling our borders. We know that we require both air and cyber border patrol capabilities to effectively protect our borders and our citizens.

What progress has been made to increase aircraft and cyber capabilities, specifically given our budgetary constraints? Thank you.


sorry, hon member. I didn’t hear the last part of your question.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Deputy Speaker, if I may repeat the question, I asked the following: What progress has been made to increase the aircraft and cyber capabilities, specifically given our budgetary constraints? Thank you very much.

Mr D J MAYNIER: The answer is ... drum roll: None!


Speaker, firstly, you would recall that we have indeed deployed 15 of 22 companies. At the time of the last Budget Vote, I committed to prioritise and reprioritise our budget and ensure that we deploy – by the time we go to the next Budget Vote, by the end of the financial

year, we should have deployed all 22 companies on the border.

Mr D J MAYNIER: Support my budget proposals!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! This cannot be a conversation. Please, hon Minister, answer the question.


patriot. You are a citizen. You are a Member of Parliament. In my view, it is the responsibility of Members of Parliament to raise issues constantly and provide support to the department they have oversight responsibilities to. [Interjections.] No, that is enough now.

I think, hon Marais, on the matter of cybersecurity, these are issues the Justice, Crime Prevention
and Security Cluster is dealing with right now. Of course, in addition to the boots on the ground on the

border, we are looking at issues like the unmanned aerial vehicles, etc, so that, at least, there are adequate resources. [Interjections.] When you have fought enough to support us to get the money – just be decent for once. Be like other members. You are a young man who is undisciplined. You always heckle. [Interjections.] Didn’t your mother bring you up properly? [Interjections.]

Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please! This is where this conversational exchange creates a problem. Hon Minister, please ... it can’t be alright to say that, I mean, like ...


withdraw if I had said the mother didn’t bring him up properly. I just asked him.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! Minister, please! Please. Just withdraw. This is all I am asking.


withdraw, but please don’t let her down. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! No, Minister. Hon Minister, it has to be unconditional. Please. It must be unconditional, Minister.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Order, hon members! Order! Hon members, it is not proper to throw stuff in the House. It creates problems.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister: Despite the good intentions of our neighbouring state partners in the joint operational liaison forum, we still see and hear reports of stolen vehicles and poaching, while human and drug trafficking still takes place, particularly through Mozambique and then on to Zambia.

How are issues such as these dealt with by the liaison forum? Thank you.


Speaker, the honourable Cetshwayo is correct. There are serious challenges, particularly in that part of the borderline – Zimbabwe, Mozambique and South Africa. The most important thing we have now done – which had been lacking before – you can patrol the borders, but if you don’t have an integrated approach from the entire security cluster, it doesn’t work. Even as you arrest people for stealing vehicles and for trafficking young girls, you have no way to process those things.

Right now, the Minister of Police is building a huge

police station in Umhlabuyalingana, which is on the



binational commission between South Africa and Mozambique. Some of the issues that were discussed are precisely these issues.

It does not help to patrol the border on your own. It is always better when we do it together and collaborate as neighbouring countries. Thank you very much.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Sorry, Deputy Speaker. Just on a point of correction to the Minister: I am Cebekhulu, not Cetshwayo.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, yes. I am sorry. I ought to have done that. It is alright.



Mr M D KEKANA: Deputy Speaker, I think it was a mistake. It is for Home Affairs on Question 164.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, through you to the hon the Minister: We have heard reports before on the assassination of the commanders of Lesotho. Our question to you is the following: Is the effectiveness of the operational liaison forum between South Africa and its neighbours not undermined by the assassination of the

commanders of Lesotho’s army? What is the South African government’s response in this regard?


Speaker, it is a new question. However, I will respond to the issue because you are raising it in the context of the liaison officers.

You know that South Africa is currently the SADC Chair, so, as we are talking, we have people on the ground, as a region – not as South Africa. As a region, we are collecting information about exactly what happened. We will also have a fact-finding mission – I guess it will start tomorrow – in Lesotho, also mandated by SADC. Not only that, I am aware that the defence force chiefs within the region will tomorrow, if not today, meet just to discuss the political situation in that region.

It is a very difficult matter to deal with right now before we have gathered all the facts relating to what happened, but the truth of the matter is that the head of the defence force of that country was shot right at the

barracks by two of his officers. Of course, we all send our condolences to the people of Lesotho.

After the last election, all of us thought that, at least, peace would prevail in Lesotho. What this means to all South Africans is that we have a responsibility to look at what is happening and learn from some of the mistakes committed by some of these countries so that we never find ourselves in that kind of situation in our country. Thank you very much.

Question 128:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The crime intelligence division operates at national provincial and cluster levels. The members of the division perform their duties in accordance with the law and requisite regulations.

Their mandate is primarily to support crime prevention, detection and investigation with their main client being the SA Police Service and other Constitutional bodies.

The intelligence analysis and gathering units are currently focusing on crime priorities identified by the National Acting Commissioner with special attention being given to the recent rise in trio crimes in the country and murders in KwaZulu-Natal.

Major-General Ngcobo was appointed to the position of Acting Divisional Commissioner on the 23rd August 2017 and is tasked with stabilising the division in terms of its services.

I have directed the Acting Divisional Commissioner to unite crime intelligence personnel on a common purpose as well as to create an enabling environment for all members to focus on the divisions, mandate and priorities.

The environment does require firm command and control to mitigate against potential abuse of power and resources. As the Minister I’m alike to this, and have begun a process of plaguing any potential holes in terms of likely wayward or rogue behaviour.

The division is required by law to perform its duties with greater adherence to law and the spirit thereof. I have encouraged Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID to be vigilante on the division and assist me in cleaning it up. This includes making sure that no one with criminal charges remain at work until their matters are resolved or otherwise.

We are also looking at matters relating to potential, irregular promotions which impact on the general negative performance of the division. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms D CARTER: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Through you, Minister thank you for your reply but just - the media reports point to yourself as being under threat and needing protection from your own department and it intelligent operatives past, present and those on suspension.

The Deputy President has stated that there is a well- resourced co-ordinated covert operation underway to prevent those responsible for state capture from being

held to account and prevent the integrity of our law enforcement agencies and other state institutions from being restored.

Now the Deputy President also has said that state agencies and resources are being abused to promote factional political agendas and that those behind these agendas will go to any length to protect themselves and their interest.

Now Minister, who are these people and on whose behalf do they act? Do you have control on over SAPS or who actually does? Who is calling the shots? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Eh! I call the shots and I can assure members of this House that eh! ... [Interjections.]

Mr D J MAYNIER: You are shooting blank!

The MINISTER OF POLICE: ...we are in charge of the SA Police Service; but what I can tell you is that there are

some rogue elements who are at any given point in time take their chances in relation to crime intelligence.

This coming Monday and onwards we will be attending to crime intelligence including giving specific directives as expected by the people of the Republic and this August House to ensure that crime intelligence execute its mandate and purpose, to lead in the fight against crime.

As an important component of our strategy going forward in the fight against crime. So, I can assure the hon member that in the next coming months you will get the proper report through the established structures in the standing committee here in Parliament about the work of crime intelligence; and I’m quite confident about that work.

With regard to allegations or otherwise manifestations in the public discourse about political interference, it is the intention of the Minister to probe and to go to the bottom of this; and for those who make such allegations from all formations to come forward in an appropriate platform to provide evidence.

There is no need for us to bark at something without attending to it. It is neither my intention to allow rogueness in the police service, in crime intelligence to manifest itself in allegations without us attending to them, and; I will, in the very near future announce steps that will take to probe some of the allegations that are being made with regard to the rogueness in relation to the crime intelligence being used for political ants. We will announce in the near future about the steps that we need to take in that regard.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you. Hon Minister, I don’t see tears in your eyes. [Laughter.] You must weep hysterically like a moaning widow. What is happening in KwaZulu-Natal has the potential to undermine the stability of the whole country. Do you have any tangible plans to stop these hired assassins who are killing our people like flies?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, as we speak – when I came in as the Minister of Police; I came in when the murders in KwaZulu-Natal were actually escalating whether political or not it is a matter that is a subject

of investigation; but a lot of those who have pulled the trigger in these KwaZulu-Natal killings have been arrested.

The main concern for our department and the Ministry of Police is not the trigger man. It is the man behind the trigger person; it can be a man or woman. That is what we are interested in.

What we have instituted in relation to KwaZulu-Natal is a multidisciplinary approach that includes all of our forces to focus on the killings and murders in KwaZulu- Natal.

It may be political or taxi violence but we are narrowing the scope towards those that will manifest themselves in the so-called political killings. I can assure this House that we are very much on track - all leads have actually been followed.

It is unfortunate as we conduct this business. One of the most militant and the most disciplined fighters of the ANC Youth League and the ANC, Sindiso Magaqa, fall along

the way as we conduct the business of bringing those who shot him to book.

I want say to South Africans that our police force is working very hard to ensure that those who have done this careless crime are actually brought to book. I can say to you Deputy Speaker, that I’m very much confident that we will make major breakthroughs... [Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF POLICE: ...in relation to the killing of people in KwaZulu-Natal, and with the support of our people to bring those who are behind these murders to book. Thank you very much. [Applause.

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you. Richard Mdluli - and I hope I would never have to say that name again; but he had sat at home on full pay since 2012. His influence is felt everywhere and the fact that he had no security clearance; that the report claim that he appointed seven family members to the crime intelligent agent programme without performing any undercover operations; that he

abused state vehicles, travel agents, safe houses and the CI slush fund. Then there is that Pesky murder charge which was brushed aside by one Adv Jiba who’s husband Mdluli had assisted and furnished the presidential pardon for.

This man reaches the statutory retirement age of 60 next year. Now one can only presume you intent keeping him on so that he like Riah Phiyega, can leave on a full SAPS pension and medical aid; but while we continue paying him
- what now, R11 million while on suspension, what are you doing to ensure his influence on crime intelligence is minimised as we all know he is still running crime intelligence from his home at Dawn Park?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Eh! You will know that hon member that as much as we may want things to pan out differently the law is different, because the litigation process that we are facing with regard to the Mdluli case is the one that prohibit us to have acted in whatever way we may want to because we respect the rule of law. Where the law will be in our favour to have acted in a way that will enable us to do certain things with regard to Mdluli, we

would have done that a long time ago, and you will know that we are not in this position because we make favours to any other person.

From day one, we acted on Ntlemeza as guided by the rule of law and the courts of this country. We are not going to act differently when it comes to Mdluli. We are not fearful about any other thing.

The question of who does what in crime intelligence is receiving our attention, and if indeed there are people - as reports that we read about also in the newspapers, - that want to have a strangle over crime intelligence, we will deal with that because we will never allow institutions of the state to be under any abuse by any other individual.

Those who do that they do so because eh, they are allowed in the era of darkness to continue with their actions; but I want to assure you, hon member, that we are actually observing the law and in this particular instance Mdluli is no exception to that.

We are following what the courts have directed us to do. The disciplinary processes have actually started. If it were according to us we will be in a position to conclude that as quickly as possible; but there is recourse even on the part of Mdluli - who goes to the court, and the court also in relation to his rights continues to protect him.

So on our part, be rest assured, there is no issue, if ever we can act as quick as possible we will be in a position to do that. No doubt about it. Thank you.

Ms M P MMOLA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you, hon Minister for your reply. Hon Minister, to avoid what happened previously in crime intelligence does the current Acting Divisional Commissioner of Intelligence have a security clearance? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, he does. He does have a security clearance. [Applause.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: No, no sorry Deputy Speaker.


Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, we have actually indicated to you by pressing the button that we wanted to have a follow-up question to the Minister.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ja, eh! We have taken four names, sir and we have made them diverse. Eh! So let’s see what happens next.

Mr T RAWULA: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry! Eh, no let’s not through change the rules in the middle of a game.

Question 151:


Deputy Speaker, let me indicate that, for some years now, the Department of Justice and Correctional Services has been exploring a policy framework that should lead to a comprehensive legislative framework, to appropriately regulate the transfer of prisoners between South Africa and other countries, especially in the SADC region.

Two months ago, I was part of a delegation in Tanzania at a SADC Ministers’ meeting to discuss a number of transnational security matters, including this one. The draft protocol that was presented there, having been developed by the officials, was felt to be inadequate to deal with all the legal complexities that needed to be resolved, in order to have a proper framework. We need a framework that is adequate both at a SADC level, which would give the necessary legal structure from which bilateral agreements could draw, and further down at the level of our respective countries’ national laws.

Amongst the challenges are the varied penal systems that exist across the region. That makes it difficult to ensure that it will actually be possible to continue serving sentence in another country when we transfer prisoners from one country to the other. The penal laws of the receiving state or the administering state should smooth the continuation of the service of the sentence.

Of course, one of the other challenges in SADC is that you release people to a neighbouring country if their status makes them free persons. The challenge is that

they are likely to come back into the country and engage and repeat offending. That then defeats the whole purpose.

Those are some of the challenges that we are trying to grapple with - to develop a transversal framework that will facilitate the transfer of prisoners. There is an interdepartmental effort led by Correctional Services within the Justice and Security cluster to ensure that we come up with proposals to Cabinet that can be put to SADC in finalising the protocol by December. We then want to come back home and have something concrete that will inform the legislative and policy framework here at home. Thank you.

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Hon Deputy Speaker, Minister, thank you for the elaborate response. Noting that there is currently no policy position adopted at Cabinet level on the transfer of sentenced foreign inmates to serve their sentences in their countries of origin, are you in the position to say how much it costs the country to provide services to this 7,5% of Correctional Services’ foreign national inmate population?


Chairperson, different methods have been attempted to calculate the exact cost to the Republic for keeping foreign nationals who have committed offenses in South Africa and who are therefore serving term in our correctional facilities.

May I just highlight the fact that the bulk of those offenders naturally comes from the SADC region because of the boundaries that we share with countries in the region. Hence, this matter of the transfer of prisoners has been put high up on the agenda of SADC Ministers, as I indicated earlier.

You can take the R20 billion and split it and see what 7% of that is. However, that will not give you an accurate reflection, because it depends on whether that individual or offender is kept in one of our private facilities or in public facilities where the cost structure is different, and what the particular needs of that offender may be. Some offenders are on special diets and have special requirements. All offenders are catered for on merit.

So, there are variations based on a number of factors that would determine what the cost of keeping that individual offender is.

I know that this Parliament has in the past been furnished with all sorts of figures based on some kind of unscientific calculation. I would prefer to steer away from that mechanical way of determining how much it costs.

If you like, you can take 7% of the R20 billion budget to calculate what it means in respect of keeping those offenders in our correctional facilities. Thank you.

Mr W HORN: Chairperson, Minister, while you steer clear of figures, conservative estimates state that monthly, it costs the taxpayer R5 million and annually nearly
R2 billion to house these foreign nationals in our correctional centres.

You refer to the draft protocol and in fact, the annual performance plan, APP, of the department in 2011-12 already made reference that this draft protocol was

concluded after widely consulting in, amongst others, the SADC region. The next step according to the APP was to conclude interstate transfer agreements.

Yet, what you tell us today is that you are busy reinventing the wheel. Why should we not conclude that you have made yourself guilty of gross dereliction of duty, resulting in the loss of billions of rands of taxpayers’ money by not implementing this protocol in the three years since you have taken office?


is no protocol to implement, in the first place. So, there is no obligation arising thereof. There is a process of negotiating such a protocol, which is in draft form at this point in time. I have already highlighted the complexities and difficulties associated with the varied penal systems.

I am informed, for example, that in countries like Mozambique, they don’t have life sentences. In a country like Botswana, they have the death penalty. So, in that situation, you have a determined sentence where there is

no life sentence. In South Africa, when you are sentenced to life, you must serve life, except of course that a portion thereof can be served on parole. The mere fact that you are on parole does not mean that you are not continuing to serve your sentence. It simply means that you continue to serve your sentence outside the correctional facility under supervision.

Other countries do not have those dispensations. If you are out, you are out. Are we going to have a situation where people who are serving life get transferred to a country after 20 years where there is no parole system? We have to do it in terms of our law? And upon arrival in that country they become free persons. If they reoffend or break the parole conditions, which you cannot even impose if there is not a parole system in that country, you will have a situation where some of them come back into South Africa.

When you arrest them, you cannot put them back into prison for breaking parole conditions, because the sentence has fallen off. What do you do in that

situation? You have to wait for them to commit an offense and charge them again and only then reincarcerate them.

However, if a person’s parole continued and followed them wherever they are, you would simply institute administrative measures that would institute an inquiry against them if they are in bridge and they happen to be back here. If they are found to have been in bridge of their parole conditions, it would be an administrative measure and you can send them back to a correctional facility. [Time expired.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, Minister, please, tell us whether you think, given the fact that the higher levels of crime and convictions in the country are now being committed by foreign nationals, it is sustainable to keep them in our prisons to provide them with these three meals and all the privileges based on the budget that you have, and do you believe that more needs to be done with other relevant departments in the country to try and curb this? Thank you.


first thing is to keep persons who are here in South Africa illegally outside the borders of South Africa and if they do make their way into the Republic, to take the necessary measures. Of course, I would support any measures that support the Department of Home Affairs, which is the administering department, to ensure that the proliferation of the problem is arrested, so that you don’t have to deal with the downstream challenges that result from that.

Once people have committed offenses other than the mere fact that they are in South Africa unlawfully, which is itself a criminal offense, except that it is normally dealt with administratively by way of deportation, they become the subject of the criminal justice system. Upon conviction, they will then end up in our correctional facilities.

It would be ideal if we could have a system where we would be able to not only deport but actually transfer people who are convicted of offenses to their countries of origin to continue to serve the sentences there. But,

like I said, given the challenges that exist, where there is not adequate harmonisation of our penal system and of our correction system across the region, you have these situations. You could then have people who have committed serious offenses deported, only to return the next day to commit an even more serious offense.

So, that is the challenge that we have to grapple with at a policy level and find real solutions to the problem, so that we can effectively implement such a policy.

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chair, the English artist still holds that prevention is better than cure. With regard to this question, I wonder if it will not be more effective to tighten our border control measures to stop the illegal immigrants from flowing into our country. If the Minister agrees with this view, I would like to know what measures the department and the cluster are adopting to tighten the border control.


Fortunately, the Minister of Home Affairs is answering questions this afternoon and I am sure she would have

better answers than me as to how to deal with that particular situation.

Of course, at cluster level, we remain seized with the crosscutting nature of this problem and collectively, we are working together to ensure that South Africa remains a country where criminal activity is curbed, and that should include criminal activity arising from illegal migration. Thank you.

Question 130:

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chair, with regard to a question whether a certain person holds a South African passport, if not which passport did the specified person used to enter the Republic of South Africa on the 13th August, if so, on what date was it issued? According to our records, no passport was issued by the South African government. Thank you.

Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Minister, I am sure you are aware that disgrace Mugabe has very questionable record of behaviour in public; in fact she has repeatedly assaulted a number of journalists in quite a few countries across the world.

She is also well-known for her homophobic sentiments and more recently she behaved like a gangster when she assaulted the young Gabriel Engels with the extension cord at a Sandton Hotel.

Now, the Immigration Act grants you the authority to ban such people from ever entering the country again. Are you prepared to take such action against her or are you equally afraid of the extension cord?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, with regard to the allegations which the hon member has just referred to now, I would agree with the Minister that we have the Immigration Act but we also have huge responsibility to ensure that our actions are based on evidence and facts. At the moment I don’t have facts. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Is there another follow-up, EFF?

Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order, hon member?

Mr I M OLLIS: The Minister on that side refers to Mr Hoosen as the Minister and he is not a Minister, he is just a Member of Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, it is a frivolous point of order, continue hon Matiase.

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, Deputy Minister, when Ms Mugabe committed this kind heinous crime, she lost the right to be the first lady and for that, she ceases to be honourable anymore. I want to understand what premium do you place between a South African who becomes a victim of the kind of crime committed against her and a lady who happens to be a first lady in Zimbabwe? Who is who? Whose life is more important than the other? Why do you protect a foreigner at the expense of a South African citizen?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chair, I think we have to separate the two departments. There is the Department of International Relations and Co-operation,

DIRCO, which I think will address those issues, but also there is Home Affairs. I can only talk to our high-level commitments about our commitments to victims. Whenever there are crimes of this nature, our priority is on the support for victims and that is the general statement.
Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, when Ms Mugabe started beating up people and so on and so forth and we were told that she is going to be arrested and unfortunately she didn’t. In that period before the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation granted that malicious immunity, what measures did you have in place to ensure that she didn’t escape or whether it was just a by the way?

What measures were put in place at ports of entry to ensure that should she avail herself there trying to escape, she should be arrested. We will be interested to know whether you were consulted on the decision to grant immunity and what your views were in that regard? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, with regard to allegations that were on the media about the behaviour of a certain Zimbabwean citizen, it is very difficult. [Interjections.] In our capacity as government officials, we tend to be restricted in terms of what to do if you don’t have facts.

In this instance, as I have said, whatever I heard was on the media. I didn’t have any information about the circumstances surrounding what happened. So, as a result you don’t even have to ask what interventions ought to be put in place, because up to now I really don’t have the facts as to what were the circumstances? When did she enter? What was the purpose? How did she leave? I was not party to that process.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, there is one more opportunity for a follow-up question. Is there anyone who wants to take that? Hon Mokause?

Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, we have heard a report from the Minister of Police, hon Fikile Mbalula, and is in the House today, that Ms Mugabe was arrested, which

was in fact a false report. What is the response of the South African government with regard to such false report?

We have a proposal as the EFF, why can’t arrest hon Mbalula because he is amongst us today and he was dishonest in the first place and in fact he misled the country?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, why are you rising?

Mr D M GUMEDE: On a point of order, hon Chairperson. These follow-up questions are totally not related to the question in hand, which is Question 130.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, due to the nature of the question, which is very broad in the fact that the Minister has responded to some of this follow-up questions, I am going to allow the hon Minister to respond.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, since this issue seems to be of interest to hon members, I hope the representative of the Minister of the DIRCO will be able to brief or account fully to hon members. Thank you.

Question 149:


Chairperson and hon members, with regard to discussions with the National Treasury on the funding model for the Defence Review, the two accounting officers have established an interdepartmental task team known as the budget task team to look at ways and means to fund the implementation of this Defence Review 2015. The budget task team interrogated the requirement and developed a joint report in which the following proposals were made:

Firstly, the retention of revenue of approximately

1,7 billion to 3,7 billion from financial year 2018-19 to financial year 2023-24;

Secondly, the leveraging of assets of approximately

1,5 billion to be phased in from the financial year 2021- 22; and

Thirdly, efficiencies and savings to be implemented from within the department.

The additional requirement from the fiscus from year one of the implementation of the Defence Review is approximately 386 million to 11,3 billion in year six, provided that the proposals mentioned earlier are approved for implementation.

The budget task team’s report was approved by the Plenary Defence Staff Council and signed off by the Secretary of Defence as the accounting officer, and then submitted as a formal report to the National Treasury and the National Treasury’s Director-General for signature and inclusion in the Medium-Term Expenditure Committee, MTEC, process.

Lastly, the two Ministers of Defence and Military Veterans, and the Minister of Treasury, have met together with the teams to discuss this matter and agreed that the two accounting officers should continue to take the process forward. We are now ready to receive that report. Thank you.

Ms N B DAMBUZA: Thank you very much Minister, for the good work done. We would like to know what the timelines for the interdepartmental task team known as the budget task team, BTT, in implementing the Defence Review of 2015, are.


task team does not have the responsibility of implementing the Defence Review. It is the department itself which has to implement the Defence Review, guided by the Chief of the SA National Defence Force and funded by the accounting officer Dr Gulube, and political guidance given by the Minister on the basis of the budget
... the Defence Review report. That’s the first thing.

Secondly, I will be dishonest if I say to you these are the timeframes for us to have concluded the discussions we are having with National Treasury. However, what is important is that this whole saga of budget cuts has not prevented us from implementing the first and second milestones of the Defence Review.

We have started implementing, particularly in those areas where there is not much funding required. In the third year we will definitely need some funding from National Treasury and hopefully by then all of these things shall have been resolved. Thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, given your response and given the funding and the budgetary constraints, why do you then believe it was the most prudent way to spend the following: R14 million on the chartered SA Airways, SAA, flight SA2951 to Cuba; 5,3 million on the crippling C-130 Hercules via Saint Helena island to Cuba; and lately
R25 million on the very important person, VIP, chartered flight to the Brics meeting for President Zuma while we have an underutilised but fully operational presidential jet Inkwazi. Thank you.


very much hon Mathee ... I’m sorry Marais. I’m really sorry.

Let me start with the last one and let me start with Inkwazi. I am sure you are aware that on several

occasions the Inkwazi was declared unserviceable, and in such instances what we do is to charter an aircraft for the President to do his political work which he does on behalf of the nation. That’s the one thing. It won’t be the first time and it’s not going to be the last time because we have to sort out this matter of Inkwazi.

Equally, even when we want to buy an aircraft to change Inkwazi, you are the first ones to complain. I am sure if we had bought an aircraft for him last year we would have completely paid off that debt by now. Even if we had had
... Mr Mathee, remember at one point that we actually had a discussion with SAA and the agreement with SAA was that we could actually buy from them, which was going to be a state entity to state entity and would possibly have been much, much cheaper than the route we are going.

Again, you had problems with that and said, why are we buying an aircraft at all? So, for as long as we do not have an aircraft which is serviceable, dependable and reliable we will continue to charter until such time as we have an aircraft. I can’t lie to you here and say no

we will stop chartering because it is expensive. That was the first part of the Question.

With regard to the second part of the Question, let me just remind you as a member of the committee itself, about some of the areas you have visited where the Defence Force functions from.

Firstly, we have Cubans who have been here in the country for two years. It is not just one Cuban; we are talking about a chunk of Cubans who are transferring skills to our young ... [Interjections.] ... yes, a group. [Interjections.] It’s not junk; It’s a chunk. [Laughter.] I didn’t say junk, right? No, don’t misrepresent me. [Interjections.] Don’t do that. Now ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members. Hon Minister, will you wrap it up now? Your time has basically expired.


no, no, I have to finish by saying that you are aware that they are here. They are here because we have an

exchange programme. They are assisting us. You have seen the work they have done in repairing vehicles dating back to the early sixties which we could not repair, instead of buying new vehicles. You have seen ... [Inaudible.]
... and how they have preserved that. You have visited the site.

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chair, may I kindly address you on Rule 66. The members of the DA are interrupting irrespective of whether the Minister is trying to express the points.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member, I will intervene when it becomes unbearable for the Minister to be able to respond. The next follow up Question is to be asked by a member of the EFF, the hon Mokause.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you House Chair. Hon Minister, the Defence Review raised specific concerns relating to the state of defence of our country South Africa, chief amongst them being the insufficient funding and the use of defence resources for ill-defined purposes such as the

case when we sent our very young women and men to the Central African Republic, poorly equipped and completely outnumbered.

What is the nature of our Defence Force deployment to the rest of the African continent, why is our Defence not equipped and why are we not looking at their security in general?


very much hon Mokause. Firstly, the state of the Defence Force ... In fact, the Defence Review talks in the main to the landward capabilities of the SA National Defence force. [Interjections.] Yes, they are outdated. It is very true, because when we came into power in 1994 we first had to prioritise the needs of ordinary South Africans who were poor, who did not have water, who did not have sanitation ... [Interjections.] ... no electricity.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members.


important for us to balance those issues. As a result, government took a decision to cut down on the budget of the Defence Force. So, if you look at the budget of the Defence Force itself you will see that over the years it has declined because we had to look at balancing the needs of the majority of South Africans vis-á-vis those who have had the privileges and the Defence Force itself.

So when they talk about the state of the Defence Force and the landward capabilities which are bad, the issue is as a result of that.

Then with regard to the Central African Republic, it wasn’t a peacekeeping mission force. It was a bilateral agreement.

Then, on what else we are doing in the continent. We do a lot of work with regard to peacekeeping. As you know, currently we are part of the UN Organisation Stabilisation Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Monusco, but we are also part of the force

intervention brigade, which is part of Monusco, in the eastern part of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

If you look at what happened in the Ivory Coast a couple of years ago, you will also know that South Africa was involved there in trying to assist to resolve those issues.

What are the benefits for South Africa? The benefit is that where there is peace and stability in any of the countries in the continent, it means there is going to be peace and stability in the entire continent.

South Africa has a pull effect. Whenever instability occurs in an area, it is easy for people to pack their bags and find their way down to South Africa. We have got to find ways of preventing that. [Interjections.] Why? I don’t know how it happened but I know for sure that when organisations were unbanned in 1990 we found them residing right here with you and being your good ... [Inaudible.]

Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, one hears many reports of the poor living facilities of our armed forces, the poor state of weapons, vehicles and other ... [Inaudible.] ... equipment and tools of trade. What is your response to this?


very much hon Chair and hon Sithole. Hon Sithole, it’s exactly what I’ve just referred to, which is that the budget cuts of the Department of Defence have really resulted in a decline of the South African ... You were talking of tools of trade. You were talking of vehicles, which I’ve just referred to. What else did you mention? Anyway, you mentioned three things. All of those are as a result of the fact that the SA National Defence Force has been having challenges of human resources because we first had to deal with the socioeconomic conditions of the majority of the people of South Africa, which at the time were appalling. In the course of that, we then had to sacrifice the SA National Defence Force.

However, seeing that at least now certain things have been done in the 23 years ... But not only that ... The

fact that there are challenges in the whole world and in the whole continent, it therefore has become urgent for us to look at the state of our Defence Force and equip it adequately, and rejuvenate and restructure the Defence Force as a whole.

Question 154:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Question 154 has been asked by the hon Masango to the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation. I have been informed that the Minister of State Security will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon Chief Whip.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I address you in terms of Rule 138 of our Rules?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, section 92 of our Constitution stipulates that Members of the Cabinet are accountable collectively and individually to Parliament for the exercise of their powers and functions.

This procedure for putting questions to the executive is one of the ways in which we hold them accountable and fulfil the obligation on this House set out in 55 of the Constitution to provide mechanisms to hold them accountable.

The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation has not appeared in the House since March last year. She has missed two oral questions sessions in 2016. These dates were provided to the Minister at the beginning of this year and we find it unacceptable that she is not here. She has two Deputy Ministers as well, Mr Landers and Mrs Mfeketo, and it is unacceptable that not one of them is in the House today to account.

This is a completely unacceptable situation and it makes a joke of this House’s responsibility to hold the

executive accountable. I really believe that the Speaker, the Chief Whips and the Leader of Government Business need to urgently have a meeting into which the Minister is called to account for why she has failed in her responsibility to be held accountable by the people’s representatives.

What we cannot continue with is a Minister who repeatedly misses her obligations to this House. It is an unacceptable situation and it will be wrong for this House not to express itself and its dissatisfaction with this behaviour. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, I also rise in terms of Rule 138 to support my hon colleague in what he has requested that this House should do. [Interjections.] I think I need to be protected from the noisy corner there.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You are fully protected.

Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, we know that the Minister is the Minister of International Relations and her

relation is with countries outside of South Africa, but her first relation should be with members of this House. That’s the first relation that she needs to inculcate.

We were told in the Chief Whips’ Forum, not only yesterday but even a week ago, where we appealed to the Parliamentary Councillor of the Leader of the Government Business, hon Koornhof, to request the Minister to be present today to answer questions in the House.

We were assured yesterday in the Chief Whips’ Forum that the Leader of Government Business, the hon Deputy President of this country, did indeed write to the Minister asking her to be here today. We cannot have her here today because she is in Vietnam and we understand – doing we don’t know what.

What makes the matter worse is that not a single representative of hers is here. None of the Deputies are here – we were told that her deputy will be here because surely we want to ask follow-up questions.

I think the argument in the Chief Whips’ Forum and in programming was that there is a serious issue of the diplomatic immunity that was grated to Mrs Mugabe. The Minister didn’t even appear before that committee to give a response. Hon Hlengwa wrote in asking her to be there.

This is totally, totally unacceptable and I trust that, not only the opposition, but all of us on all sides of the House condemn the serious misuse of being a member of the executive. Thank you House Chair.

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chairperson, I also rise on Rule 138 paragraph three which says that any Minister may authorise his or her Deputy or any other member of the Ministers to take the responsibility.[Interjections.] It is in the Rules.

Secondly, what has been raised by hon Singh I am sure is within the Chief Whips’ Forum and it has been discussed in the programme and the solution has been taken.

It is therefore the right of this House to listen to the question asked and the delegation powers to the Minister of International Relations. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order! I don’t want a debate on the matter because the speakers who have spoken have more or less captured the essence of what the discussions have been, both in the Chief Whips’ Forum last week, this week and in programming committee meetings.

However, I will just give a very brief opportunity to hon members, the hon Matiase.

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, ordinarily I wouldn’t, after hon Singh has spoken, rise on a point of order. I do not know what is so indefensible that the member of the ANC is trying to defend. She is trying to justify the irrational, illogical decision of the Minister and her Deputies. So, please ANC, humble yourselves; admit when you are wrong and surrender yourselves to the truth. Do not defend the indefensible. Please! That is all we are asking from you.

Mr N M KUBISA: House Chairperson, I wanted to say that I think the hon Whip over there is distorting the spirit through which this matter was discussed because we discussed it yesterday and this morning and there were resolutions taken because we saw it as a matter of serious concern.

I think the way she approaches it is taken to another direction. She must be stopped.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Kwankwa you are the last one on this now.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, if we are serious about resolving this problem, it must not be an “us against them” situation. I think we must address it head on especially with members of the executive and the Leader of Government Business because we can’t have Ministers, in all honest and all fairness, who behave as if they are celebrities here, bangezi ePalamente [not come Parliament] whenever they feel like it. Thank you very much House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, fortunately I have been part of the Chief Whips’ Forum meetings that have taken place as well as the programming committee meeting where this issue has been raised. There is a general concern that has been raised by all the Chief Whips in those forums about this specific matter.

This matter will be referred to the Speaker together with the Leader of Government Business to attend to. However, in terms of the Rules, as it is in front of us, I am going to allow the hon Minister of State Security to reply to the question.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chair, thank you very much to Ministers and Members of Parliament who are here. On the first issue House Chair, just for your records, the Minister did put in an apology. Secondly, as part of a collective responsibility, a Minister has been assigned to respond – for the record of Parliament let’s do that.

With respect to the question asked, I want to thank hon Masango for the question that you have asked. The 37th

Ordinary SADC Summit of Heads of State and Government that took place in Tshwane on August 2017 was very successful.

Summit approved Chairpersonship with a theme “Partnering with the Private sector in developing industry and regional value chains” which was selected to ensure continuity in the region’s collective aspiration towards regional industrialisation in Southern African Development Community, SADC.

In this regard, South Africa hosted the second Industrialisation Week from 29 July to 30 August 2017 whose outcome has become part of the summit record.

Summit elected his Excellency, President Dr Hage of the Republic of Namibia as an incoming chairperson of SADC summit and his Excellency President, Edgar Lungu, of the Republic of Zambia as an incoming chairperson of the Organ on Politics, Defence and Security Co-operation.

Summit also reflected and took decisions on political and security situations in the region. Summit noted that the

political and security situation in the region has remained relatively peaceful and stable. Notwithstanding some challenges in the Kingdom of Lesotho, the Democratic Republic of Congo, as such, a Double Troika Summit will be convened at the end of November 2017 to deliberate on the Lesotho road map to implement constitutional public and security sector reform.

Summit also expressed concern over the continued insecurities caused by the negative forces in the DRC, particularly in the eastern and central parts of the country.

To address these challenges, summit approved that SADC chairperson and the outgoing chairperson consult with SADC heads of state and government to finalise the appointment of a SADC special envoy to the DRC.

Further, summit urged the Congolese authorities to publicise the revised electoral calendar. Summit also approved the request from the Union of Comoros to join SADC as a 16th member state. Summit also approved the convening of SADC Solidarity Conference on Western Sahara

and mandated a chairperson of SADC to consult with member states on the date and venue for holding the solidarity conference whose outcomes will be reported to the African Union.

The overall economic growth in the region is expected to increase by an average of 3,6% in 2017 while regional inflation will slow down to 8,7% while all member states except for Angola, DRC, Malawi, Mozambique, Swaziland and Zambia are expected to achieve regional inflation target range of 3% to 7% in 2017.

Lastly, summit and those council recommendations need to consolidate the Macroeconomic Framework including fiscal policies to ensure control over public debts and that in light of climate change related disasters in the region, explore risk insurance options which member states could use in such events, including the African risk facility at the African Development Bank. Thank you.


Mnu M S A MASANGO: Ngiyathokoza Ngcongcotjhe, i-ANC kanye neenhlangano esebenzisana nazo ezifana nabo Friends of

Western Sahara, Friends of Cuba neFriends of Palestine zikareke khulu ngesinqumo esithethweko sokobana kubanjwe umhlangano lo obizwa nge Solidarity Conference kelinye lamazwe ebegade alapho.

Umbuzolandelela uthi,


... will the SADC states in collaboration with the African Union consider raising this issue with the United Nations Security Council so that they can impose punitive economic sanctions to the Moroccan government and its backers for continuously refusing to hold a referendum, mining mineral resources there and then buying favours to members of the security council and not granting self determination to the people of Western Sahara? Thank you.


welcome the follow up from hon Masango. One of the issues that the SADC family, including ANC believes in is the freedom of the people of the Western Sahara. This decision was made because of the outcome of the African Union summit where Morocco was readmitted. Now we have an

opportunity to say that this outstanding matter of alienable rights and self determination of the people of Western Sahara cannot be ignored anymore.

There was an assessment that we never spoke in one voice during the African Union summit as a region. We are hosting the conference this time around so that at least we can be able to speak with one voice as the African Union and that ultimately the decision to implement the Unites Nations’ resolution to conduct a referendum by the people of the Western Sahara, so that they can determine their alienable right, can become a reality.

At this stage we are not going to be pushing for any sanctions until we have a solid position as a region and then influence the African Union to do the same. We still believe that no freedom of ours will be complete unless the people of Western Sahara and the people of Palestine have their alienable rights to statute. Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, I last minute decided to change my question and I

appreciate your comments in terms of the Western Sahara and Palestine.

Will government also intervene to find a solution to a problem in Burma or Myanmar? Thousands and thousands of Muslims or Hingans are being murdered on a daily basis. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Our position as the South African government remains firm that in any conflict that is there, there is not going to be any solution through walls and repression but there should be negotiations so that we can be able to do that.

Working through our multilateral institution, we should be able to condemn any kind of repression of people for being different either on the basis of ethnicity, race or religion, including the loss of life. Using our own structures through the AU and including our membership of the UN, we should be able to pursue that. No person across the world should be subjugated, oppressed or be maimed on the basis that they look different from other people. Thank you.

Mr Z R XALISA: House Chair, to the Minister, between relations with neighbouring countries and maintaining law and order in the country, which one is more important? If maintaining law and order is, what reason drove you to granting Grace Mugabe diplomatic immunity and what have you done to engage with the woman who was violated by Grace Mugabe to ensure that the reasons for granting diplomatic immunity are explained?

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chair, I think the member is jumping the gun because the question is here on the Order Paper. At a particular point the Minister of International Relations will have to respond. As a person tasked to do that, when the question is here at the appropriate time, I am going to respond. It is part of the questions that are being asked here today and I will furnish the answer on behalf of the Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Indeed, the question appears there.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I am happy for that to be the case but it must not become a

precedent because what could well end up happening is that a Minister could refer to a question further down the Order Paper saying he will answer it then knowing full well that we are time-bound and we could run out of time and not get to the question.

I think this question is sufficiently close enough so I am not going to make a drama about it now but I do not want it to be a precedent going forward.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The question appears as under Question 136 later on the Question Paper and also under Question 165. May I request the next follow up question to be asked?

Mr S MOKGALAPA: House Chairperson, since the Minister is dodging accountability and acting with impunity by not coming to Parliament and account and quoting a spurious sub-judicare rule, Minister Mahlobo, it appears you were present at the SADC Summit, can you kindly confirm to this House, did Grace Mugabe attend the SADC Summit? If she did, can you please name the exact event that she attended? If she was not there, then what justifies the

department into granting her the diplomatic immunity if she was not at the SADC Summit?

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, one of the things you should avoid is trying to be opportunistic. The same question that is being asked is related to 136. But just to ... [Interjections.] House Chairperson, we need your protection, we are can’t be screaming like we are kids.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just come down hon members. Hon De Freitas, just come down a bit.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: I can assist the member that indeed I did attend the summit and I am not a record keeper and therefore I don’t keep registers of people. I thank you.

Question 140:


Chair, indeed the onus on the Minister of the Department of International Relations and Co-operation to issue diplomatic immunities in terms of the relevant

legislation and the Department of Justice has no role in that.

The Department of International Relations and Co- operation also does have its own chief law adviser, who provides legal advice on matters relating to international relations and co-operation, and to the best of my knowledge, the Chief State Law Adviser in the Department of Justice was not approached for a legal opinion on the matter. Thank you.

Mr W HORN: Thank you Minister for that astounding answer. Could you maybe confirm, as the Minister responsible for the state law advisers, given the fact that it is their duty to advice the executive before the executive take any decisions, whether we can conclude that it would indeed constitute irrationality and unreasonableness on the part of the Minister in law, because obviously, the Chief State Law Adviser should have been approached?


Chairperson, I cannot for my life begin to imagine that a decision not to request legal advice, of itself

constitutes irrationality. Irrationality can only be based on facts at hand, which upon being reviewed objectively lead to that. But like I indicated, the Department of International Relations and Co-operation also does have its own Chief State Law Adviser; it has always been like that even before 1994, by the way.

That is the dispensation that has always been there, and the mere fact that the Chief State Law Adviser at the Department of Justice has not been approached, cannot by any stretch of imagination of itself constitute irrationality, and the hon member will have to provide cogent arguments why that should be so.

But like I indicated, there was no obligation on the part of the state law adviser to provide unsolicited advice.
Indeed, the only basis on which advice can be provided is on request and on no other grounds. Thank you.

Mr T RAWULA: Ha, ha! Grace Mugabe again! Minister, was there no communication between your department and the Minister of Police regarding the granting of immunity to Grace Mugabe, as the Minister was expecting her to hand

herself over to the police? If not, why not, considering that she committed a criminal offence which required police involvement on Grace Mugabe? Answer!


Whether such communication between me and the Minister of Police did or did not occur at any stage prior to the granting of immunity, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that at the point when such immunity was granted, that became the basis on which the matter was dealt with.

It has already been clarified that the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation is the authority to make such a decision, and upon such decision being made, neither the Ministers of Justice nor of Police’s role continues to be relevant in any manner. Thank you.

Prof C T MSIMANG: Chair, through you to the hon Minister, from the points that have been raised in this House - some of them very emotionally, it is clear that the people of South Africa are aggrieved about what has happened in this case and, as the Minister of Justice, you will know that justice must not only be done but be

seen to be done. My concern is that, in this instance, it was not seen to have been done. Would you agree with this view? Thank you.


indeed, justice must not only be done; it is tried that justice must be seen to be done. But part of that justice system is a lawful system of extending diplomatic immunity, which applies not only in our dispensation but globally.

I can actually indicate without specifying that the South Africans who hold the diplomatic positions elsewhere in the world, have found themselves in certain cases in similar situations and the diplomatic immunity has been granted to them from any civil or criminal liability as we speak.

So, it happens both ways. It’s a global system that applies under international convention which has been domesticated and is part of our domestic law, and falls within our constitutional order as well. Thank you.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Chairperson and hon Minister, maybe it’s high time that you reveal to this honourable House that the DA has taken this matter to court for review and they have cited the National Director of Public Prosecutions as a respondent.

Also, kindly tell the South African public the role that the Department of Justice - or you especially as the Minister, if any, played in the granting of immunity? I am asking this because you kept on emphasising the granting of the immunity, and yet the DA and its friends don’t want to accept the role which the department is playing. Thank you, hon Minister.


indeed so, Chairperson, that in the Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges Act there is no provision for a role to be played by the Minister of Justice, and of course, the matter was at the time when the diplomatic immunity was granted, not before the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA.

So, I’m not so sure on what basis the NPA is joined as a party in those proceedings. Of course, under the Constitution, I exercise the final responsibility on the NPA. Strangely, I have not been cited in those court papers for whatever reasons that are best known and can best be answered by the litigants concerned.

In any case, it would nonetheless have not been correct in anyway to cite me in that capacity, given the fact that the NPA was not yet at that stage a relevant authority where the matter was at, because there was no docket that was before the NPA for prosecutorial decision when the diplomatic immunity was granted. Thank you very much.

Question 155:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, the incumbent for the position of Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI head had since petitioned the Supreme Court of Appeal and the outcome of the court is awaited. While both the Crime Intelligence and the forensic service heads are undergoing disciplinary hearing respectively.

The filling of any of these posts with new incumbents will place the SAPS at risk should they be challenged by the current incumbents, and any decision to fill such posts by another incumbent can only be taken once the outcome of the relevant disciplinary or litigation processes are finalised.

The filling of the position of the National Commissioner is the competence of the President and is currently attending to it. Thank you.

Ms M A MOLEBATSI: House Chair, thank you very much to the hon Minister. My follow-up question is the continued instability at the top management level of the SAPS has a devastating effect on the level of service delivery and the moral of the police members. Can you, hon Minister, indicate whether you will consider commissioning a research study to assess the impact of the leadership instability on the SAPS? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, I think that at the present moment we can talk about the vacuum in the sense that we don’t have a permanent national

commissioner. However, in terms of stability there is relative stability within SAPS. The fact that one section of SAPS did not have a head for a very ling time; particularly the crime intelligence will have a devastating effect in relation to our approach if we say our approach is crime intelligence lead.

Like I said in April, and it is our commitment that we want before at the end of the year, if the litigation processes have been finalised to appoint permanent people in those positions where we have been affected by litigation. But where we are not, like the national commissioner, it is cleared that the President is applying his mind, and is looking at his options. Once that has been finalised within the prescripts of the Constitution with all the powers bestowed on him, we should be in a position to announce the new National Association of Software and Service Companies, Nasscom, of the police before the end of the year. So, with regards to that, the lights are green.

To the others the lights are orange towards green and they will be finalised very soon; and I believe that the

top management level will have the centre holding going forward. Thank you.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Thank you, Chair. Minister you say that there is relative instability at the head of the police service, but the facts are that we are now at the second acting national commissioner since you came into this portfolio. We had Major-General Pat Mokushane at the head of the crime intelligence for a very brief period before he was shafted – rightfully so – and then we had acting commissioner Mothiba saying that she will directly oversee and supervise crime intelligence before, all of a sudden, Major-General Ngcobo was jack-knifed into the situation.

So, things are going left right and centre and haywire, and you say that the President is considering and applying his mind on the appointment of a permanent national commissioner but we haven’t had a transparent process around that. We haven’t complied with the national development plan recommendations for a national policing board to interview and shortlist competent candidates; why did you sidestep and not follow the

recommendation of the NDP to have an open transparency in that selection process?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, I can tell this House that we are very much on track including the President on the appointment of National Association of Software and Service Companies NASSCO.

With regard to the issue that you are raising about the NDP, on the question of the appointment of the National Police Commissioner; it is a matter that has actually been raised but nonetheless, with regard to the appointment, we know what the Constitution says; on the appointment of the National Police Commissioner, and there is no confusion about that.

So, the National Commissioner will be appointed and then at an appropriate time that will be announced to the Republic of South Africa. And that is the prerogative of the President of the Republic to appoint a national police commissioner in South Africa.

On the question of other people acting and so on, you know hon Mbhele, if you don’t play politics, what we are dealing with here. You know what has been the situation in the crime intelligence. The question of General Mokushane has been addressed and put aside, and we are moving forward.

And I have said and I repeat, again for your sake, again, that if there were no litigation issues we would have long cleared the space in relation to crime intelligence. The fact that I came in and there was this situation of General Mdluli it is a matter that we are attending to.
And I can assure this House and South Africans that I am not going to allow crime intelligence to degenerate out of its mandate and not carry what South Africans expert of it.

Firstly, to lead in relation to informing the police in general about intelligence gathering on crime activities in the country to enable the police to act and act correctly and well-informed in relation to crime activities in the country. This thing that at crime intelligence head office there is a picnic going on which

is never ending; I am going to end it. And nobody else is going to end it; it is me – the Minister of Police!
Kuzawuba nje! [Applause.]

So, you must rest assured ukuthi kuzawuba strong. (It’s going to be very strong.) So, the current acting commissioner has got our support and we are moving ahead. I want crime intelligence to respond to the tasks of fighting crime; and doing what we are doing to criminals around the country, including the murders in KwaZulu- Natal and everywhere.

I don’t want to wake up with 14 bombs as though we don’t have the state in this country, and criminals are running amok! I want crime intelligence that is fully operational and in check, don’t worry about thugs who are hijacking the state; I am going to finish them before Christmas. [Applause.]

Don’t worry about them. And wherever they are; they must know that it is me or them and I am coming for them! I am not going to allow them to run amok, run that thing as if it’s K-Ci & JoJo up-and-aft! We are going to finish them!

I want order there! I want order in relation to crime intelligence and to do our business of fighting crime in the Republic. I don’t want people who are lousy and have run out of ideas about what they are supposed to do! And then they do other things. If I find them; I would want to know from the acting general and all generals of crime intelligence who is who in the zoo? Why do I have people that I don’t know what their purpose is in the crime intelligence? [Applause.]

I want them out! I smoke them out and then I proceed with the job that we are supposed to do. So, from that you are going to see action! I can’t run the police and run to you to complain about police; if I run what about you? I am not going to run away from thugs! [Time expired.] Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, they don’t call him Minister Razzmatazz for nothing. [Laughter.]

Mr C T MSIMANG: Thank you, hon House Chair. I have just learnt that the hon Minister lost his mother recently;

and I would like to express, on behalf of the IFP, our heartfelt condolences.

Now, coming to the question, I wonder if the Minister will agree with the view that some of the factors that have led to the crime running rampant in our country are that; firstly, we are having these actors as if in Hollywood; and it’s quite a long time since we have had a permanent national commissioner of police.

Secondly, it is that even when we appoint them we don’t appoint people with police experience, and if, in fact, this has some influence I would wonder what is the department going to do going forward?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chair, I think when we appoint – going forward – we look at people with experience and who can serve with integrity in the police service in South Africa. That is what is important – and that is what we are going to do going forward. We don’t want people who are in the police service and at the same time they don’t serve with integrity. They must bring the

integrity into the force and the experience to strengthen the organisation – that is what we want to do.

We need to learn from experience in relation to from the commissioners we have appointed or other people who were appointed in the position. And in these positions, sometimes it doesn’t even matter, because even those who were in the service who were given an opportunity to take leading roles in relation to the SAPS but they too were affected by all sorts of things, including scandals and were accused, and so on. Today we are faced with litigations. The question is integrity. Where will you find that?

We need to look deep in terms of the kind of people we want and at the same time we will find people of integrity I believe in South Africa there is a lot of goodwill and I think we will find those people going forward who can serve us with distinctions and diligently and to serve our people with integrity. Thank you.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you hon Chair. Hon Minister, we pretty much appreciate your enthusiasm; the question is

or even as a preface to the question – you know that policing and science are like cousins, they work incongruence; now, have you measured the negative impact scientifically of not having a permanent national police commissioner; have you done that; if so, can you give us the figures of that scientific study that you would have done? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I have not done that study but I can tell you that not having done that study in concrete terms having been in the environment, I can see what it means. There is lack of consistency in relation to policy implementation and what South Africans expect from the police because there is no leadership.
You appoint a person now for six months and the other one comes in and they change things.

The new police commissioner when they come into the environment they want to come with 15 changes. What Bheki Cele did what was good for South Africa the one who comes in would want to change it, what was good with hon Bheki Cele the other one will want to change it, so that affect the environment.

The organisation as big as the police, and as old as 100 years as the police, will need stability at the leadership macro level; precisely because you need consistency and that there is order, now how the organisation is prepared and organised is command and control.

If you don’t have consistency with regard to that then things fall apart. Not that people are indiscipline but they start to run amok, and so on. So, the question of permanent leadership is important for SAPS both at the management level and also at the macro political level – it’s very important. If you are going to change from time to time that affects the rhythmic of the police.

At the present moment there are many things we are considering from the Farlam Commission, that is, transformation and also the panel of experts finalising the report that will be placed before us before the end of the year, and that is going to change the face of policing in the Republic.

We are 20 years into democracy and we have adopted the national crime prevention strategy in 1996 and then in these 22 years we are in the process of reviewing that strategy so it merges with the changing face of the police in terms of our experience among others, the buzz word professionalise-professionalise which is what we are doing in scientific mode in changing things in the police and making the organisation of the police to be better and also to be globally competitive and learning from the best in the world as guided by the panel of experts as per recommendation of the Farlam commission.

Then we have not done the research but tell us the story that leadership for the centre to hold is very important for the SAPS organisation.

Question 145:

Ms N P SONTI: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: You forgot to call me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, you were too low on the list hon member.

Ms N P SONTI: I have pressed the button long time ago.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, you have pressed the button but we have taken the four follow up questions, hon member. Your name is not in the four that pressed.

Ms N P SONTI: But I pressed it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, it was lower down on the list.


Chair and the hon member, the department has been working on the funding model that recognises the need to provide for the long-term trajectory defence review and the need to ensure internal efficiencies as directed by the Treasury. This approach for cost saving measures and prudency applies to all government departments including the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS Cluster.

The programme of action and the monitoring for the cluster ensures that the component departments adhere to

the outcomes based performance with resource allocation and spending linked to predetermined outcomes. The departments within the cluster have been directed to conduct a course analysis for specific aspects of the National Security Strategy for which they are responsible for implementation. Overall, the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation and the Treasury have the role of monitoring compliance to expenditure ceilings in line with Treasury directness.

Governments, inclusive of the JCPS Cluster is alive to the pressures on our national fiscus due to extended constriction of the economy and will continue to ensure prudent and directed use of public funds to extract the best benefits for our country. Thank you.


Nks N A M NISI: Ngqongqoshe, sicela ukwazi ukuthi yiziphi izingqinamba nezinkinga umbutho wethu wokuvikela nomnyango obhekene nazo mayelana nokuhhafula kwesabelo sezimali? Sifuna ukwazi futhi ukuthi uNgqongqoshe ucabanga ukuthi yikuphi okumele iPhalamende likwenze

ukuhlangabezana naye ukuze kusizakale kule nkinga obhekene nayo. Ngiyabonga.



weNdlu, mandibulele kwilungu elibuze lo mbuzo. Eyona nto iyingxaki yile bendikhe ndayikhankanya yengxaki yokuba masiphungule izinto ezininzi. Uphengululo lezokhuselo (Defence Review) luza nengxaki yokuba umkhosi kufuneka uhlaziywe kwaye umkhosi unezinto ezingasasebenzi kakuhle. Yiyo ke leyo ethe yasiphathela ingxaki.

Okwangoku, iSebe lezeMali liphakamise ukuba kuphungulwe inani lamajoni esinalo. Eyona nto ingumnqa yeyokuba kulindleke ukuba isixa esikhulu senani lamalungu omkhosi sibe sele siphunguliwe emva kwethuba elithile. Loo nto ithetha ukuba siza kubanengxaki yokonyuka kwezinga lenani lethu labantu abangasebenziyo apha eMzantsi Afrika.
Okunye, le nto ithi abantu abanezakhono nabaqeqeshiweyo kwezomkhosi mababe semngciphekweni wokurheletywa yimibutho yoonqevu. Sisa xakwe zezo zinto ke thina.

Thina sibona ukuba asikwazi ukuphungula inani lamalungu omkhosi minyaka le, ingakumbi xa usiva la manani bathi masiguzule ngawo. Loo nto ithetha ukuba aba bantu abayazi into eqhubekayo emkhosini xa uza kuvuka usithi guzula inani elithile. Asisayi kuyenza loo nto. Yiyo loo nto sisungule iqela elinikwe uxanduva lohlahlo-lwabiwo- mali(budget task team) ukuze lixoxe nabo libancede ngokubabonisa imiphumela yaloo nto ukuba injani na. [Kwaphela ixesha.]

Mnu T RAWULA: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo weNdlu. Mphathiswa, abantu bomkhosi i-Apla, yombuthu kaPoqo ababezabalazela inkululeko basankolonkoloza entolongweni nanamhlanje nangona bancedisa ukukhulula abantu beli lizwe. Ingaba ubakhulula nini? Kutheni nje bengekakhutshwa babe nabo bayaxhamla kwinkululeko le nathi siyixhamlayo?


Why are you not prioritising their release? Thank you very much.



udlala ngam ngoku? Nanku kaloku uMphathiswa wezoBulungisa neenkonzo zoLuleko oqubisana nezo zinto. Mna ndithetha ngezinto zomkhosi kuphela.



you going to answer?


because the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services is – we are in the what?

Mr T RAWULA: Hon Chairperson, we must not be confused here. This is the same WhatsApp group. They must answer please man. [Laughter.]


on the Minister to respond. For the sake of that the next question comes from the EFF. I am going to allow you to ask a question. Please ask the relevant question to the relevant Minister.

Mr T RAWULA: That question is very relevant. You are asked by Apla soldiers on why they are not being released? When are you going to prioritise their release their release? As to who must answer the question, we need to ask a question and then answer after that. All we are saying is that you are all in the same WhatsApp group.



elihoniphekileyo ubundibuza ukuba ingaba abantu bomkhosi we-Apla bakhona kusini na kumanqanaba olawulo, ingaba bazazi kusini na iinjengele okanye basebenza kanjani na emkhosini bendiza kunika lonke olo lwazi. Nangoku sisandula kunyusela abanye uninzi lwabo abasuka kwi-Apla njengoko sinyusela nabanye. Andikwazi ke ngoku ukuyiphendula into yamabanjwa kuba ayindim umntu othatha isigqibo malunga neengqawule. Ndiyakuba ndiyadelela ukuba ndingenza loo nto. I-ABSA le ke yona andiyazi. [Kwahlekwa.]


Mr S P MHLONGO: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: The Minister of Defence is also a Minister of the veterans’ affairs. Those former Apla soldiers belong to the veterans’ league. Now, it is therefore incumbent of the Minister not be selective in terms of prioritising those were part of her own party and leave other veterans formations. Those people are...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think you have made your point. Thank you very much. Hon Mhlongo, the Minister tried and explained on why she cannot answer that question. I am not going to force her. Hon Hlongwa, it is your time. I am sorry, Hlengwa.


Mnu M HLENGWA: Khululeka Sihlalo, kwaHlongo kukwamalume ngakho-ke awudidekile kakhulu. Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngeke ngidlale ngawe mina, noma bedlala ngawe. Ngiyafisa nje ukwazi ukuthi inqubo ye-integration njengoba kwakumele ngabe kade yaphela, kunabanye abantu abasala ngaphandle, kuyinto okwakumele ngabe iyaqhubeka manje, ukuthi ngaphansi kwalesi simo sengqindezi yokushoda kwenkece obhekene naso emnyangweni wakho; ngiyafisa

ukwazi ukuthi uzoqedela nini lolo hlelo nokuthi umamaphi nalo ngoba kunabantu abahlezi ngaphandle, kuyabanda ngaphandle balinde ukuthi lolo hlelo luqedelwe. Kodwa ngoba kunepolotiki phakathi aniqedi, kubambeni, niqeda nini, nimamaphi? Ngikutshelile ukuthi angidlali ngawe uma ngibuza lo mbuzo. Ngiyathokoza.



ohloniphekileyo Hlengwa. Kunyaka ophelileyo okanye kuma- 2015 kweyoMsintsi size apha ePalamente sapasisa uMthetho owaxhaswa ngamaLungu ePalamnente onke. Loo Mthetho wawuvala umanyano lwemikhosi [integration] kuba sisithi asikwazi ukuqhubeka nokwenza njalo. Kaloku kuza kufuneka ukuba ukhumbule ukuba le nkqubo yaqala ngowe-1994-95.
Ngoko ke le nkqubo yavalwa kodwa ukuqeshwa [recruitment] iyenzeka kodwa nayo amanani ethu ehle kakhulu ukususela ngowama-2015. Umcimbi womanyano lwemikhosi wona wavalwa tu kangangokuba nawe ukuba ungakhangela phaya kuHansard uya kufumanisa ukuba savela noMthetho oYilwayo ukuba inkqubo yomanyaniso lwemikhosi ivaliwe. Enkosi.

Question 138:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: The question is: We found that the communication channels between us and the Acting Commissioner, Lieutenant Mothiba, are effective, if not, why not, if so, what are the relevant details? The answer is that communication channels are normal. Proper top management meetings are also held regularly with the Acting National Police Commissioner, Lieutenant-General Lesetja Mothiba. Thank you.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson and Minister, when the saga around Grace Mugabe first broke, you gave a public assurance that she was being co-operative with the SA Police Service and would, in fact, appear before the court to answer charges. However, long before she was even given immunity, she missed that court date. Then, either you had the wrong information or you were not kept updated about developments in that regard or you perhaps just misled the public.

Now, I would assume that you were getting briefings about the ongoing developments from the Acting Commissioner.
Can you clarify to the House where did you, Minister, get the information about Grace Mugabe’s expected court

appearance? Why did you seemingly have the wrong information in the end if it came from General Mothiba? What does that say about the effectiveness of the communication channels between you and the Acting Commissioner if we have this broken telephone happening? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, there was no communication breakdown. The communication was correct and there was no lie in terms of what I communicated when I was asked a question. The police informed me correctly and necessary steps were taken. It did not happen because from what they agreed to do they changed and they then applied for indemnity. In relation to that, that is now history because all that was considered and it had then to be the matter that the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, Dirco, had to deal with. The Department of International Relations and Co-operation had actually dealt with the matter up until to the end. Now the matter is not entirely water under the bridge because some of you are challenging it, and that is it.

But from the point of the police there was no miscommunication. We acted, we communicated the truth and that was correct information. In relation to all other aspects that go with it in terms of the red alert that was activated, as we followed the developments in terms of what needed to have been done it would have meant that any other thing changed precisely because of the fact that the question of the indemnity kicked in. That is it.

So, there is no issue about it. Basically, you are lacking shock absorbers because you don’t have the guts to ask the direct question of Mrs Grace Mugabe. You asked me about the relations with the Lieutenant-General and when I answered you that they are normal, you then ... just be brave. Ask me about Grace Mugabe. I would have answered you. So, just have shock absorbers and that is it. [Time expired.]

Ms L MABIJA: Hon Minister, may you please expatiate on these normal communication channels so that South African citizens can get the gist of your answer.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Normal communication channels with the Minister and the Lieutenant-General means that we interact at the top management level in terms of the police, wherein the Lieutenant-General and the Minister interact on issues of policy, security of the country at the level of the cluster of government, at the executive level and we also interact in terms of the national security with regard to all the entities that we run and control in the police - crime intelligence, the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, top management of the police, national joints and all aspects. Therefore, we have normal interactions in that sense because at all times we interact, talk and we understand where the country is heading to with regard to policing in the Republic.

Those are normal channels that we actually have and use to interact. Nonetheless, even in between those channels we talk and interact about the developments of policing in the country at any given point in time. Thank you.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: So, let us talk about Grace Mugabe. Minister, you were told by persons unknown that Grace

Mugabe would willingly arrive at court, and this is two days before the whole smoke screen of diplomatic immunity to a meeting she never attended. Instead, somehow having declared a red alert at our borders – I mean that is hot stuff – she somehow got in a plane. Zimbabwe was already announcing through their state-owned media that she has been attacked by a white girl – I am quoting them – and was home safe. This is while you were telling us that there is a red alert and she is not going anywhere.

I would like to know who it was who told you that she was going to appear in court because they obviously led you up the garden path as she was in the meanwhile heading to the Gupta airport to fly home? So, someone lied somewhere. I would like to know who they were and what sanctions will they face?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I am the Minister of Police, I don’t report to the newspapers or radio stations about issues that I am not in charge of. Now, your speculations and assumptions whoever fed you it cannot be my problem. The issue is, Mrs Grace Mugabe, the First Lady of Zimbabwe, never left South Africa or ran away. That was

in the figmentation of your imagination that she could have left the country, ran away and all of that; she didn’t. I came back to clarify that point that she didn’t. She never left South Africa and that is what you must understand.

So, I am saying to you, in the SA Police Service, of which I am the Minister, we communicated and we did. The fact that the First Lady, from whatever position she came from, changed and then lodged a question of indemnity which was dealt with by Dirco and not the police. We do not deal with indemnity, but we deal with arrests and we were ready to arrest. The question of ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order, hon members, order!

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I am answering the question.

Mr B L MASHILE: Please, less noise, less noise, please!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members, order! Hon members, how do you expect him to answer you when you are making such noise?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don’t deal with indemnity, but I deal with arrests and I communicated what we were supposed to communicate in relation to the matter as it was obtained during that particular time, and we did that. So, I am saying to hon Kohler-Barnard, Barnard, Barnard again, there was no lie in what I have said and that was the truth. That was it. Thank you very much and I am very happy about that.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, I will take that question for my colleague. Minister, clearly, all the issues seem to revolve around Grace Mugabe, and there is no doubt about that. Can you tell us what takes precedence? Is it the matter of the police or the diplomatic immunity? Can you please advise us?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: We have to deal with them in totality. It is not easy to say what takes precedence because the police can act. But in this particular

instance it was a special case. [Interjections.]It was not a straightforward case where we could arrest and all of that. It meant that many other things had to be taken into consideration whenever they were brought to the fore even if it meant that the arrest has to be effected. All those had to be taken into consideration. But at all times the South African police would have been ready to execute their mandate in terms of South African law.
Thank you.

Question 164:

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I would like to draw your attention to the point that 164 has been dealt with and I would request to go to 160. [Interjections.]


not allowed to go to the next question. Will you please deal with question 164 as asked by the hon Mkhaliphi?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, with regard to question 164 as asked by hon Mkhaliphi, I would like to draw the House to section 59(a) of the South African Citizenship Act 88 of 1995 as amended in 2010.

Under exceptional circumstances, the Minister has the right to grant citizenship. That is done to foreign nationals who have been residents for over a period of time. That is done under different categories. In some instances, consideration is taken based on the investment in the country. [Interjections.] The investment of up to five million and then it is recognition of a commitment to the country. In this instance of this particular family, there was sufficient evidence at the time, there were businesses that were growing ...


please! Can you allow the Minister to respond to the question?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: ... there were businesses that were registered with our South African companies that were run by this group and clearly a high number of people who were employed within those companies. In the application it said that it was up to 7000 permanent employees through the variety of family companies and this has been done over the years. In some instances, high ranking diplomats from the UN, leading sports

personalities have been granted a similar status over the years.

Ms E N LOUW: Chair, I will be taking the follow up question on Mrs Khaliphi’s behalf. Minister, you have earlier on said that you will fast track citizenship or identity documents in South Africa. However, in Motherwell in Port Elizabeth there are only two staff members working at Home Affairs office. Besides that Minister, you have said the Gupta family have to invest over five million within the South African market or the economy, however they literally looted PRASA, Transnet, SAA and that is just but a few of the state entities. So, if you were the Minister at the time, would you have given such looters criminals citizenship to your country?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I will start of with the question about access to home affairs services by our people in places like Port Elizabeth and Motherwell. As I indicated earlier on that in areas where we are not well resourced, it’s our priority to service our people. We have introduced mobile facility so as to make sure that in the interim they are not prejudiced.

Earlier on hon member, we indicated that even in the most remote rural areas we haven’t abandon people. We keep on bringing the services closer so at to ensure that the quality of the services improve. [Interjections.] With regard to ...



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: With regard to this aspect, I think if I was in that position at the time the priority would have been to look at the contribution of this Department of Home Affairs to the growth of the economy of this country. And I would make sure that people who are investing in this country, I would make sure that I create a conducive ... [Interjections.] I would make sure that ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Order! Hon members what is wrong? [Interjections.] Continue.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I would make sure that I create conducive environment for them to invest more in

the country and to also attract many more investors. Hon Chair, the hon members should remember one thing, migration is for growth and development.

Ms E N LOUW: Chair, on a point of order: The Minister of Home Affairs just confirmed that she would have continued the looting that the Gupta family have done in our country. {Interjections.] She would have continued.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member that is not a point of order. That is not a point of order.
Please take your seat.

Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Minister, you have indicated in more than one occasion now that the main reason for granting the Gupta family was citizenships was the billions of rands that supposedly investment they made. Minister Gigaba before you; granted them citizenship on that basis without even asking for proof of that investment. Now you know quite well that the Gupta family are busy selling their businesses and running off to Dubai which means that their investments are no longer relevant in South Africa. So on that basis are you willing now to revoke

their citizenship now that they are no longer making an investment in the country? [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Order! Hon members

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I think that the hon member is part of our committee. We have looked at this issue Chairperson and basically there are processes. We cannot go by the hearsay. [Interjections.] We really have no information which has been presented to us as to whether they are no longer investing in the country or whether they are leaving so at this point in time we don’t have that information. [Interjections.] No! [Interjections.] [Applause.] Hon Chairperson, the question is if I am given as I am walking along the street will I then act on the basis of that? I mean in this House we are ever emphasising the importance of the rule of law and the values enshrined in our Constitution. We have to treat people with ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Chief Whip of the Opposition please, it can’t be the Chief Whip making such a loud noise. Continue hon member.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon members my humble view is that we have to treat matters of this nature within the parameters of the law and be guided by facts. There have been proposals for judicial enquiry into the business practices of this family and others. And I think we should be guided by the outcomes of those formal processes. If we do not do that we will ultimately undermine our own Constitution and our own laws.


Mnu M HLENGWA: Sihlalo, Khabazela, kuyaxaka ukuthi kukhona izinto zabanye abantu ezisheshayo ezinye azisheshi. Abantu baseNingizimu Afrika [South Africa] baphila ngaphansi kwengcindezi esezingeni eliphezulu kabi befika eMnyangweni Wezasekhaya. Abanye kubathatha iminyaka befuna omazisi [identity documents] befuna izitifiketi zokuzalwa [birth certificates] kuthiwe suka la, shona la, suka la, hamba la, kodwa ngoba nisebenzela abakhethiweyo, ngikhumbula ingoma yasesontweni ethi, Lelizwe eliphezulu elabakhethiweyo, nokusebenza kwenu kunjalo. Umbuzo uthi,


... when will you begin a process of prioritising South Africans whereby you fast track their issues?


Okwesibili, ngempela ubona kulungile ukuthi abantu abagebenga umbuso banikezwe ubuzwe baseNingizimu Afrika. Impela amasela kube yithi esiwanikeza imvume yokuthi ahlale la asigebenge sibuka.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Siyabonga, isikhathi sakho siphelile. Ngqongqoshe.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Siyawubonga kakhulu lowombuzo, okokuqala nje, ngithanda ukuvumelana nalengxenye ethi kufanele sisebenzele kakhulu abantu bethu ikakhulukazi laba abasemakhaya abangaxhumekile [not connected] ukuthi basebenze ngamakhompyutha nakho konke, lapho ngibona engathi siyavumelana. Mhlawumbe lapho esithanda ukuhlukana khona wukuthi uMnyango Wezasekhaya [Department of Home Affairs] awunawo ...


It doesn’t really make a difference that you are wealthy and on so on, it was not meant for that. Our focus on the national identity system is for all nationals to make sure that their identities are accurate and they are secured so the population register which is our top priority is our mandate first and foremost.

The second category that we are talking about of helping foreign nationals when they want to invest in the country is a second mandate. First and foremost, our priority is the national security and to protect people against a mindset which leads to xenophobic attacks and behaviour which we sometimes pick up from the utterances of some of the opposition parties. Even when they see a building burning, they say its all foreign nationals. So we are concerned about the national security in the true sense of the country. [Interjections.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: [Interjections.] Hon Chair, can you protect me from these people? [Interjections.] Hon Minister, which muti is the Guptas using really? It seems that everybody is under their control. The Guptas have stolen our money so what investments are you talking

about? [Interjections.] Hon Minister, have you doing this to please the President and his family? Are you not struggling to sleep at night hon Minister? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Order! Hon members

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I think it is important for the dignity of the House to be truthful but also to be disciplined in terms of our debates. It is difficult to relate to wild allegations like; whatever it is said is to please the President or whoever. There is no context, it becomes difficult hon Chairperson to debate with the member and to be as informative as possible because the question ... [Interjections.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chair, on a point of order

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): What is your point of order hon member?

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: It is ... [Interjections.]



Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Can you tell these people really ...


Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I am not here for them. Hon Chair, it is public knowledge that Duduzane Zuma is doing business with the Guptas ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Is that a follow- up question?

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: ... and Duduzane Zuma is the son of the President. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon member now you are going to a debate. Are you done hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes hon Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you very much. Hon members, the time allocated for the questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed on the Hansard.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Congress of the People, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party, United Democratic Movement, AgangSA and African National Congress

Mr C H M MAXEGWANA: Hon House Chair and good afternoon hon members; the report is on the filling of vacancies in the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, for the committee of communications. This is informed by the Media Development and Diversity Agency Act that empowers us as parliamentarians in the portfolio committee to request nominations in terms of section 4.1(b). That was done and the advert was out on 2 June 2017 towards

nominations to fill the vacancies of three board members some of whom have resigned and the term of others has expired.

After doing that we received 33 nominations and out of 33 nominations we had to shortlist up to nine, as the practice is 3:1 vacancy. The committee met and shortlisted these nine candidates and some of them fell off because they did not qualify; others because of their permanent residency or citizenship and the other one withdrew at the last moment.

We followed the processes of the State Security Agency to check their cases in the country. The interviews took place on 5 September and merged with the three. The process was very transparent. I think all members or those who watched television, TV, witnessed that. We published their curricula vitae, CVs, for public scrutiny and there were comments on others while on others there were not. The interviews that took place emerged with three candidates namely, Ronald Lamola, Ms Martina Della- Togna and Ms Nombeko Mbava.

Obviously, we could not all agree with these three names. The DA and Cope objected to the recommendation of Ronald Lamola but we believed that the candidates that we emerged with have leadership qualities required for stability of this entity. On those bases, hon House Chair, we move that this report of the committee be adopted by this House. I thank you very much.

There was no debate.


that the report of this committee be adopted by the House.

Declarations of vote:

Me V VAN DYK: Voorsitter en lede van die Huis, dit is hoogtyd vir ingryping by Media-ontwikkeling-en-



kom, omdat die raad vir ’n geruime tyd al nie sy mandaat kan uitvoer nie, naamlik om die entiteit te lei om gemeenskapsmedia en –diversiteit te ontwikkel en uit te brei nie. Oorsigbesoeke deur die komitee aan

gemeenskapsmedia het ook uitgewys dat hierdie entiteit disfunksioneel is, en dit laat beslis vrae oor die voormalige Minister van Kommunikasie, Faith Muthambi, se kapasiteit.



intimidasie nadat sy inflammatoriese uitlatings dienslewering in Thaba Chweu-munisipaliteit tot stilstand gebring het nie. Die DA sou eerder prof Sheila Mmusi in sy plek wou sien, aangesien sy jarelange ondervinding het

in linguistiek en media en groot waarde kon toevoeg tot die Moda. Lamola was verder by verskeie voorvalle van haatspraak en opsweping betrokke, en die DA voel dat so ’n kandidaat moeilik die mandaat van die Moda, naamlik om



Minister Dlodlo en Adjunkminister van Kommunikasie Mahambehlala rondom die pad vorentoe en hul aksieplanne om die Moda weer op koers te kry. Die DA dring steeds aan

op dringende ondersoek na aangeleenthede in hierdie entiteit.

Alhoewel ons graag vordering wil sien, kan ons nie die



vir die etiese kultuur in

Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: The EFF believes that the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, has a very critical role in transforming the nature of South African media and allowing space to new and innovative ideas to find expression. For this reason, we believe that the MDDA board should be made of people with impeccable integrity.

Therefore, we are particularly pleased to approve the appointment of Ms Martina Della-Togna who proved herself to be a firm and principled person even while she was here in Parliament and stood on the side of the workers when they were abused by Gengezi Mgidlana. We also have full confidence in Dr Nombeko Mbava to help in taking the MDDA forward. However, the MDDA must not be used to

appoint the ANC politicians such as Ronald Lamola who is a partisan ANC person through and through. His appointment is the confirmation of the continuing culture
– may be protected - of cadre deployment by the ANC.

We urge the new board members to help bring stability to the MDDA and sponsor innovative ways to really strengthen community media and ensure that these are sufficiently funded to carry out the responsibility of keeping our communities informed. We, as the EFF, approve this appointment with the exception of the name of Ronald Lamola. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Hon Mokause and hon member Rantho, please! Continue hon member.

Mr W M MADISHA: Firstly, I express on behalf of Cope, our concern at the utterances of the acting chief executive officer, CEO of the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, made at the recent meeting of the communications portfolio committee against the MDDA board. It is hard not to draw parallels between this incident and the actions of Collins Letsoalo towards the

Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, boards. This matter needs investigation.

Cope expresses its satisfaction with the calibre of candidates interviewed and recommended for appointment, besides that of Ronald Lamola. Lamola is a known ANC operative instead of placating our concerns regarding his objectivity during his interview, Cope is left with more concerns than answers regarding whether he will be able to place the interest of the MDDA and the interest of the people before his party.

Despite the corruption and capture of much of our state, the ANC still fails to see that cadre deployment is inherently a corrupt and dangerous practise. The ANC also fails to see that it has two bites at the same cherry. I say so because, apart from the members appointed by the President through this parliamentary process, the President has carte blanche authority to appoint three members directly to the board.

Cope supports the committee’s recommendations but that of Lamola to which we object. I hope the people of South

Africa shall rise and say that indeed this is out of order if he goes in.

Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, at the outset, I just want to say that the IFP will abstain from this Vote because we cannot in any way dignify this cadre deployment that the ANC wants to do. Hon Lamola may be fit for purpose but it certainly cannot be that you take ANC people in broad daylight, and you want to hijack institutions in broad daylight.


Amahloni anisanawo, senigebenga emini kabha izwe libuka nifuna nje ukuyoshontsha amandla okuphatha ngezindlela eziphansi


... because ubugebengu has become part of your DNA and fabric. [Interjections.]


Anginazi ukuthi ninjani uma seni nje. Angazi, ninjani nje uma seni nje ukuthi emini kabha nifune ukugebenga iNingizimu Afrika, ... [Ubuwelewele]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! [Interjections.]


Mnu M HLENGWA: ... ngakho-ke ngeke sikwazi ukuba yingxenye yalokho ngoba kuyobe kusho ukuthi nathi sesiyizigebengu uma sivumela ukuthi izigebengu ... [Ubuwelewele.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hlengwa. Hon Hlengwa! [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: House Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Hlengwa, please? [Interjections.] Hon members, I can’t even hear

what hon Hlengwa is saying! Please be quiet and listen! He’s debating. Continue, hon Hlengwa.

Mr M HLENGWA: Chair, I thought noise-making was left to children, you know... My son is five-and-a-half, and I would expect this noise from him, but from hon members


... hhayi, kuthanda ukuthusa Sihlalo.


The management report of the Auditor-General about the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, spells out clearly that the MDDA is an SABC-type crisis-in-waiting.


Angikaze ngibubone ubugebengu obungaka. Angikaze ngiyibone okungaphathi kahle [mismanagement] okungaka. Angikaze ngikubone ukusweleka kobuholi obungaka. Angikaze ngikubone ukutshontsha okungaka, angikaze ngikubone ukungathembeki okungaka.

And so, the bigger responsibility before the board right now is to clean up the mess which is in the MDDA. [Interjections.] It is at epic levels. If we are going to sugar-coat and sanitise it, we are going to be party to the problem. Therefore it needs to happen, moving forward.

The fact that the MDDA last had a permanent CEO in 2014, when the term of the then CEO, Mr Lumko Mtimde, came to an end ... Since then, the MDDA has been operating under the leadership of acting CEOs who have managed and hand- held the MDDA board chairperson, Phelisa Nkomo. After Mr Mtimde’s end of tenure, the MDDA appointed Mr Mshiyeni Gungqisa as acting CEO. His tenure was terminated unceremoniously on the eve of a strategic planning session in January 2015.

Acting CEO Ms Duduzile Nchoba was appointed from January 2015 and was also unceremoniously removed.


Angiyazi le-generations eniyenzayo, ...

... people are acting, it is a stage play. Really serious action needs to be taken as far as the MDDA is concerned, and it begins with the board which is going to be fit for purpose, and Ronald Lamola is not fit for that purpose.
Thank you.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Before you start, hon Shaik Emam, hon members ...

Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please, can I address the House, hon Khawula? Please, hon members, let’s respect one another. Let’s give this House the dignity it deserves by just being hon members of this House and by doing things in an honourable manner. Thank you.

Yes, hon Khawula?


Nks M S KHAWULA: Bengicela ukuthi nisikhuzele, ave banomsindo. Okwesibili, bayazi ukuthi njengoba kukhulunywa ngobugebengu eNdumbe kuphelile izimoto zihambe zonke.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Sengizwile mama.

Nks M S KHAWULA: Ukhongolose uyiqede yonke imali laphaya.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, mama.


Nks M S KHAWULA: Bayizigebengu.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, sit down! Continue, hon Shaik Emam. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Continue, hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, colleagues, on behalf of the NFP, allow me at the very outset to advise this

House that we support the recommendations that are made here today by the portfolio committee. [Interjections.]

Allow me also on behalf of the NFP to thank the portfolio committee for the effort and the work that they have put into this. What is clear is that this entity has had serious challenges in the past, and I think the time has
... and I think with the new board, a lot of work is going to be done and it is going to take us forward.

Having said that, I also want to comment on one of the members from the DA who went away, earlier on. And I think he took an early exit, because that’s what he gets paid for – working for one hour in the day. He knows very little about happens in terms of service delivery and he made a comment that I was misleading this House in terms of the matter with Home Affairs.

Well, he does not know that there are officials in this country – civil servant – who work all hours. You can call them at nine o’clock and ten o’clock at night. And that is why this particular member was called at ten o’clock at night, and he did ... at the member of the

Home Affairs ... as an employee, serve the interests of this country. Exactly what the police did last week in the Eastern Cape ...

So the DA doesn’t know about service delivery to the poorest of the poor. So that is why they don’t know about
... [Inaudible.]

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Avenues are available and open.

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson ...

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: On a point of order, House Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shaik Emam, please take your seat. Hon Van der Merwe?

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: May I make an honest plea to the ANC today to just give this man a job and release us from this torture! Please! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not a point of order and neither is this the space for it. [Interjections.] Continue, hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson, I don’t know why there is an understanding in terms of democracy that what is good enough for one is not good enough for the other. We talk about cadre deployment ... Even the IFP ... who do they do they employ in the municipalities? There own people! [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

An HON MEMBER: Point of order, hon Chairperson! [Interjections.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: ... exactly what the DA does as well. Exactly the same thing! [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Point of order, hon Chairperson! [Interjections.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: We all do exactly the same thing! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shaik Emam! [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: All of them, standing. All the IFP, standing! [Interjections.]

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please! [Interjections.] Hon members, can you please be quiet! I want to listen to hon Singh’s point of order. [Interjections.]

Mr N SINGH: Thank you! Thank you! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon members, order!

Mr N SINGH: You see ... [Interjections.] Hon Chairperson

... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! I want to talk to hon Singh. Please listen!

Mr N SINGH: Yebo, mama, yebo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Singh, on what point are you rising?

Mr N SINGH: I am rising on Rule 92.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue, hon Singh.

Mr N SINGH: The hon member speaking from the podium is making unsubstantiated statements to this House. If he wants to debate the issue ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue, hon Singh, I am listening.

Mr N SINGH: If he wants to debate the issue of cadre deployment in the IFP, bring a substantive motion to this House. We will debate it and will show you how NFP people

batshontshe imali [stole the money] when they were in control. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Singh, your point of order is sustained. That statement needs a substantive motion. Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson, we can’t run away from the facts and reality. That is what happens in South Africa. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shaik Emam, please take your seat. Yes, hon Khubisa?

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chair, I’m sorry to disturb my colleague, but I have seen that the more the innuendos are hurled at him, the more he is provoked. Otherwise he is a good debater.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, man! Why do you do this to me? [Laughter.] You bring points of debate at the wrong time! Continue, hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chair.

My other colleague there, mama Khawula, spoke earlier on about crossing the floor. She has forgotten that she crossed the floor when there was no floor crossing! [Interjections.] And that, presently, she still has blood of the ANC in her veins! [Laughter.] So I don’t know what she’s talking about. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shaik Emam, please take your seat. Hon Louw?

Ms E N NHLANGWINI: It’s hon Nhlangwini, Madam Chair. The hon Shaik Emam said that Ma Khawula has blood on her hands ... [Interjections.] ... and I think you heard it, because you laughed. He even said that she crossed the floor. There was no floor-crossing ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is not a point of order, hon member; that’s a point of debate. Thank you.

Ms E N NHLANGWINI: [Inaudible.] ... corrupt ANC who will take you straight to hell!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am going to switch your mic off! That’s not a point of order! [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shaik Emam, please stand for me. Did you talk about hon Khawula having blood on her hands?

Mr A SHAIK EMAM: No, Chair! No! What I said was ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! I’m just asking; don’t explain. Okay, because that was raised, we are going to check Hansard and determine exactly what you said. Continue with your speech.

Ms S M KHAWULA: Point of order, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Khawula?


Nks M S KHAWULA: Umhlonishwa lo obhambi kwenu, nguyena oye kwelinye iqembu [crossed the floor] ngoba bekade eyilungu leNkatha.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member that is not a point of order, It is a debate. I have already ruled on that.


Nks S M KHAWULA: Usekhohliwe yini? Manje usefuna ukuya kuKhongolose

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I’ve ruled on that one. Please, ma! Continue.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chair.

On a more serious note, the NFP ... [Interjections.]

Ms M M MOKAUSE: House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please take your seat, hon Shaik Emam. Why are you rising, hon Mokause?

Ms M M MOKAUSE: I am rising on a point of order. The hon member at the podium is casting aspersions on our member. Mam’ Khawula is a member of the EFF ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon member, I have ruled on that matter.

Ms M M MOKAUSE: ... and she doesn’t have any ANC blood running through her body.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is not a point of order. I am going to switch your mic off.

Ms M M MOKAUSE: No, the hon member must withdraw!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue, hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chair ...

Ms M S KHAWULA: No! He must withdraw what he said about me now! We are not joking here!


USIHLALO WENDLU (Kkz M G Boroto): Mhlonitjhwa uKhawula, ngitjhilo ukuthi ngimbuzile ngatjho nokuthi ngisithethe isiqunto. Ngiyanibawa.


Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: On behalf of the NFP, I take this opportunity to congratulate all those who have been appointed and we look forward to ensuring that they provide quality service in the interest of the communities, and play a major role with sincerity and integrity.

The NFP supports the recommendations as tabled here today. [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order! When are you going to rule on this matter? [Interjections.] When?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Mam’ Khawula, ama processes ... Hon Filtane, please take your seat.


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngeke umuntu akushaye manje bese uthi uzaya kudokotela kusasa.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Ms M G Boroto): Ngifuna ukukuphendula mama.

Nks M S KHAWULA: Umuntu ukushaya manje, ulashwe manje.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Ms M G Boroto): Ngifuna ukukuphendula. Mhlonishwa uKhawula, ngiyakucela, ngithe ngithethe isinqumo kulolu daba futhi ngeke lusaxoxwa.


Continue, hon Filtane.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, the MDDA holds a very important mandate to shape and influence the future of South Africa. The UDM believes that the MDDA has the conviction to ... [Inaudible.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: He must withdraw now! He is laughing now! Who’s fooling who? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Khawula ... [Interjections.] Hon Khawula ... [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, order! Hon Khawula, you are now flouting the Rules yourself. I have ruled on this matter, and if you continue to just take the mic without permission ... I am not going to allow that.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Sorry! Sorry! Ngiyaxolisa [I am sorry].

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please sit down. I said ... I have ruled on this matter. Please take your seat. Continue, hon Filtane.

Mr M L W FILTANE: The mandate and objectives of the MDDA provides for it to create inclusive space for the development and diversity of media, by enabling access to media for those who were once excluded and suppressed from engaging in media-related activities.

It also has a responsibility to identify stakeholders and small communities and support them to achieve ownership awareness and to build capacity within these communities.

Then MDDA’s performance as per its annual 2015-16 report reflects that it is only achieving 71% of its performance indicators. The UDM believes in excellence, and therefore place the responsibility on these new nominees to strive for excellence in doping their work.

We call on the board to be courageous enough to expose any shortfall on the part of government which would affect the performance of the MDDA in executing its vital role in strengthening the fabric of society.

We make this call because believe media diversity, development and media freedom are so inextricably intertwined that one without the other is meaningless, whereas their combination has a positive synergistic performance effect.

The South African media landscape remains concentrated in the hands of a few, and must be transformed so that it is

inclusive and creates more platforms for more voices, especially the voices of those who were previously marginalised.

In this regard, there must be no predator business practices by some media giants, because such behaviour will undermine media diversity by eliminating small, local competitors. A plurality of media owners is fundamental to democracy, and it is important, because it provides potential for direct editorial content.

Now, for all these good things that need to be done, factor in Lamola! Then, the antithesis comes into the equation. And then, you don’t get progress. We have seen the mess caused by ANC deployees to the SABC board. Then, you get the court cases, misrepresentation of facts, and bias towards one party. When they go there with him as this factor, then everything is going to be undermined.

So, exactly and exclusively because of the inclusion of Lamola, we do not support this. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, let us be in the House. There shall be order in this House. Please!

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Chairperson, I am not going to take much of your time.

Ronald Lamola is damaged goods. We know very well that we can’t use Parliament to feed hungry stomachs.

So what we need to do is to remove Ronald Lamola and then Agang SA will support. If we don’t remove Ronald Lamola, we can’t really bless a process that we know within a short space of time will be looking at some people ... you know ... stealing ... institutionalising theft ... you know ... approving the name of Ronald Lamola is an institutionalisation of theft. It’s theft at a greater scale. We can’t allow that.

Anyway, I just want to ...


... botšiša gore ANC ga e sa na dihlong naa? Bohodu bjo bokaa! [Tsenoganong.] Le tlile go feletša kae, ruri? Naa le a lebala gore le be le le ANC ya O R Tambo? Bjale ga le sa le ANC ya O R Tambo, le ANC ya mahodu? Le tlile go feletša kae? [Tsenoganong.] Fetogang! Anke le be le botho batho ba Modimo. Le lebetše le batho, bjale le šetše le ngwathelana borotho le gona ka mo Palamente. Aowa, le padile, banna!

Ke nyaka go kgonthišiša gore ka maikhutšo a a tlago ke nyakane le ngaka e le alafe; le padile. Ga le sa na botho; go fedile ka lena. Ke kgopela gore le tlošeng Lamola, ga re mo nyake mo; go se go bjalo re ka se le thekge. [Tsenoganong.]


Vho R M TSELI: Mudzulatshidulo, ndo ima hafha ndo imela dzangano ḽa ANC ndi tshi khou tikedza muvhigo wa Komiti ya Phothifoḽio nga ha Vhudavhidzano.


The recommended candidates, including Ronald Lamola, have vast experience in the communications sector. As the ANC, we are convinced that they will contribute immensely in the media transformation. They proved beyond any reasonable doubt in the interviews that they are well- vested with the challenges facing the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, like funding for community media.

These candidates also ... [Interjection.]

Mr T RAWULA: I am rising on Rule 92 ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t want to explain, you know very well that Rule 92 allows you to stand but you have to state. I’m not asking you to state, sure, go on.

Mr T RAWULA: My point of order is that we’re being misled here. Lamola only as an LLB degree, he has never been a communicator anywhere. Just because in his branch he’s in communication we cannot be told that he’s a communicator. Communicating where? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that’s not a point of order, it’s a point of debate, it’s a point of debate. I’m going to switch off your mic, that’s not a point order. Continue hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr R M TSELI: These candidates, hon Chair, including Ronald Lamola also received endorsements from individuals and other stakeholders. And according to us they possess the required skills and expertise to take the MDDA to a higher level. [Applause.]

As the ANC we would like to thank all those who supported the report. As to those who do not support the report, it is important for us to indicate to this august House that the Portfolio Committee on Communications is one of the committees of this Parliament that solely believes in engagements instead of utilising its majority in the committee.

As we have indicated yesterday, we allowed almost three hours of engagement while we were discussing candidates for the South African Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, Board with the numbers that we have. The same applies to

this process that we’re in now. We have indicated, while we were discussing these candidates, that we will remain committed to the engagements but we won’t hesitate to use our numbers when we realise that members continue to be unnecessarily stubborn in the committee.

Ronald Lamola, according to us, does not hold any position of leadership in the ANC. So, there is nothing that disqualifies Ronald Lamola from being part the MDDA Board. [Applause.]

It will be wrong, hon Chair, to use declarations in this House to bring in other areas of disqualification for the MDDA Act. There are proper procedures that must be followed when you want to amend an act of Parliament. So, it will be wrong to utilise this House; use your declarations to bring in other areas of disqualification.

To us, Ronald Lamola, just like other two candidates, qualifies to be part of the board.


Vho R M TSELI: Riṋe sa dzangano a ANC ri khou tikedza muvhigo hoyu nahone ri khou fhululedza vhathu vhoṱhe vho themendeliwaho uri vha ḓo ri thusa u isa phanḓa na u tandulula dzi thaidzo dzine MDDA ya khou ṱangana nadzo. Ndo livhuwa Mudzulatshidulo.

Question put.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I address you in terms of Rule 98?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, Rule 96(b) of the Parliamentary Rules say that “at least the third of the members must be present before a vote may be taken on the matter before the assembly.” [Interjections.] I’m of the view that there are no sufficient members to form a quorum for this matter to be put to the House and I don’t know if you want to do a quorum check; but I submit that there are less than 136 members of the House present. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We cannot talk of a quorum because no vote was called. [Interjections.]

TABLE STAFF MEMBER: No, no, you put the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I put the question.

An Hon MEMBER: Yes, it has.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I put the question. I’ve read the names and I’m asking again, are there any objections?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objections I will now put the question. Those in favour will say aye.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those against will say no.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think the ayes have it. Hon Steenhuisen!


Chairperson, I submit to you that the question that you just put before the House is invalid because there is no quorum. In terms of the rules, I drew your attention to the fact that you are obliged to have checked whether there was a quorum in terms of Rule 98. And if you don’t want to do that we will call a division.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, why do we go for the quorum when nobody asked for a division?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, we are asking for division now. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, that’s what you should have done.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Actually not what I should have done. You should read the rules, it says “before a vote may be taken...” Maybe you should go and learn your rules rather. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon members, division has been asked and five minutes for the bells to be rung.

Division called.

The House divided.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon members. Hon members, hon Steenhuisen spoke about Rule 98 and the confusion came when he went to Rule 96. And I have duly apologised for not hearing him say that.

What we are going to do now is to check the quorum according to Rule 98. I am going to request members,

wherever you are seated knowing that that’s where you vote, you are going to press yes, no or abstain, so that we can check the quorum. Thank you very much. I am going to open that for you now.

Can you please ... is it okay now? Are they flashing?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, please press.

Have all members indicated their presence?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, that checking is closed. [Laughter.]

Hon members, the results are as follows: [Interjections.]

Hon MEMBERS: NO, no, not ... [Interjection.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, the results of checking the quorum. We have 137 members in the House; and the quorum is 134. So, we do quorate. [Applause.]

I am now going to repeat the question. There has been a division already asked. So, just to remind members, I will repeat the question. The question before the House is that Mr Ronald Lamola Ms Martina Della-Togna and Ms Nombeko Mbava be recommended for the appointment ... what is it? Technical? Okay, Technical issue they say. [Interjections.]

Is it fine now? Okay. We continue. The machines are now working.

I would like to remind members that they may only vote from their allocated seats when requested to do so.
Members must simply indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button, the member may, thereafter, press the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s vote when the voting session is closed, by the Chairperson.

The question before the House is that Mr Ronald Lamola Ms Martina Della-Togna and Ms Nombeko Mbava be recommended for the appointment to the Media Development and Diversity Agency Board.

Are all members in their allocated seats?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Voting will now commence.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Have all members voted?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Have all members voted? The dogs are ... the doors are closed. [Laughter.]

Hon MEMBERS: The dogs are biting. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me just remind hon members. If you are in the House, you have to press either yes, no or abstain. Thank you. So we still expect our number to go to 137. Thank you very much, the session is now closed.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]


USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Siyavota.

Nks M S KHAWULA: Nangu ekubiza ngoNomarashiya.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Ngubani mama?

Nks M S KHAWULA: Nanguya.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Ngithe uNomarashiya yini? Ngicela uzongichazela ngemuva kwalokhu ukuze siyilungise.

Nks M S KHAWULA: Uthi wena usunguNomarashiya.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Mina?

Nks M S KHAWULA: Ehene, nanguya.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Masiyiyeke manje mama.

Nks M S KHAWULA: Musa ukuganga wena.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, here are the results of the vote.

Agreed to.

Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, just an issue of clarity. I think you said there were 137 members in the House.


Mr N SINGH: Can you repeat the results, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Abstain 17, no four and yes is 118.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you Madam Chair, however my mathematics tells me that that’s 139, where did the other two come from?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It means the two people didn’t vote in the previous one. But at least it went up not down. Thank you very much, I’m done with that. [Interjections.] I’m going to ask the ... order, hon members, we’re back in the House. Hon members, I’m going to ask the secretary to read the second and third orders together.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, we would like the House to register the objection of the Economic Freedom Fighters based on, we cannot support a person who cannot ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... we cannot endorse laziness in the institutions of the Republic of South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, that is not a point of order. Order, hon members.



Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party and African National Congress.

Mr B L MASHILE: Hon House Chairperson and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs engaged the department on its fourth quarter of 2015-16 and the first quarter of 2016-17. The engagement happened on 23 August 2016. Therefore, this report actually covered the period from January to March 2016 as well as from April to June

2016. The engagement on the second and the third quarter report of 2016-17 happened on 31 January 2017, and that report covers period from July to September 2016 as well as October to December 2016.

The number of members of the committee that attended both these two meetings where we adopted these two reports was eight out of 11 which means that the meeting did quorate. I am raising this because I’m aware that there are certain members of this esteemed House that have raised this matter of adopting this report that the meeting did not quorate. I think that was raised in the Chief Whip’s Forum in the programming. I think that was mischievous because if they did check these, hon members, they would have realised that these meetings quorated and there was once an abuse of those particular committees where they participated.

The report in question, hon members, raised the following pertinent recommendations among others is that the National Treasury to provide special consideration for the necessary special support, especially for compensation of employees and then the Department of Home

Affairs should provide more awareness campaigns targeted at pregnant mothers during their prenatal visits with regard to registration of birth within 30 days; the Department of Home Affairs to provide a report on progress made with regard to smart ID cards and passports through the banks; and also that the Department of Home Affairs should provide a report on the numbers and types of persons that have been naturalised as well as the patterns identified.

With the second and the third quarter reports, they raise the following recommendations: That the Department of Home Affairs should consider conducting an outreach programme on the benefit of acquiring Smart ID cards and phasing out the vulnerable green bar-coded ID books; the Department of Home Affairs should resolve urgently the unreliable network provided by the State Information Technology Agency, Sita; and also that the National Treasury should consider exempting the Department of Home Affairs on budget cuts as it affects service delivery. We also recommended that the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of International Relations and Co- operation should resolve the issue of revenue collection

abroad urgently, which I think by now there is some sort of consensus on this specific matter.

We also recommended that the Department of Home Affairs should comply with the employment of persons with disabilities to reach 2% requirement and report on it in future. The committee passionately discussed these matters and we expect that the Department of Home Affairs will consider these recommendations and implement them as humanly as possible. As a committee, of course, we will pay attention to our recommendations that we have made to the department and check on progress that they are making. I, therefore, urge this House to accept both reports and also assist in adopting them. I thank you.

There was no debate.


move that the Reports be adopted by this House.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the DA will like to make a declaration, please. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, I am going to come to that. Are there any objections?

Question put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Chairperson, as the Democratic Alliance we have always made the effort of recognising some of the good work and the many advances that the department has been making over the years. However, one thing that we have to point out is this entire Gupta saga that continues to destroy the reputation of the good work that the officials are doing. This is because of the involvement of Minister Gigaba himself.

Now, the hon Mashile was standing here, before me, and he was talking about being mischievous. In fact, it is he who is being mischievous by preventing hon Gigaba from coming to the portfolio committee to answer questions on his involvement regarding the Gupta citizenship rather.
We want him to come there, but the ANC is protecting him. If Minister Gigaba had nothing to hide he would come there even without the invitation. Why doesn’t he have

the guts and the courage to come there? We want to put questions to him personally.

We would like to know whether Minister Gigaba went to the Saxonwold Shebeen during the time when those applications for citizenship were being considered. We want to ask him whether he received bags of money and the House in Cape Town in return for the citizenship. We want him to answer those questions. What is his relationship with the Guptas and how has that relationship impacted on his decision to grant them citizenship? Until he has the courage to come before the portfolio committee and answer those questions, this matter will continue to plague reputation of the department and all the good work that the officials are doing is going to go down the drain.

Nonetheless, we still recognise that there have been some advances and some progress that have made over the years. However, this report once again provides good progress that is being made in some areas. There are also many areas where there is poor performance that remain unchanged. Notwithstanding the many recommendations that the committee makes which hon Mashile was talking about

just now. Month after month, quarter after quarter and year on year these recommendations and observations become a mere formality. Not on a single occasion do you find that the department coming back to the committee to report on the progress that it has made with regards to the specific observations and recommendations. It just becomes business as usual.

I question therefore what the real purpose of these reports and recommendations self? Of what point is it that we spend hours interrogating the performance of the department, we make observations and recommendations, stand here and debate and compile reports only to return again with no progress being made to rectify the problems.

Take for example the department inability to provide the stable and reliable ID and passports application process. Everyday in almost every province thousand of citizen express their frustration at counter staff because Home Affairs system are offline as a result of poor network infrastructure. In very occasion that we raised this in the portfolio committee, we get the same lame excuse from

the director-general, DG, and his staff. It is not a Home Affairs problem, but a Sita problem. This is going on for years now. Home Affairs blames Sita and Sita blames Telkom, but the frustration at frontline offices grows and citizens are inconvenience. Poor network infrastructure also impact on our ability to register birth at hospitals. The mobile offices used to service deep rural areas that the hon Mkhize was talking about earlier, more than half of them are offline and are inoperable. What kind of government is this that it cannot even provide a simple stable network connection for its offices?

When thousands of children are sending large files through their cellphones and laptops everyday, but our government cannot keep a stable network alive. There should be a huge embarrassment to the department with billions of rand that is available to it every year. I do hope that the new Minister who inherited this problem will take this up as a priority in her new role.

The second observation relates to the immigration services. Once again, month after month we raise these

matters in the portfolio committee about the millions of undocumented immigrants in the country. Yet, very little is done to address this weakness. All you get in response is more and more colourful excuses from the department, but no genuine action taken to address the problem. In fact, the situation is so bad that even the department can’t tell you how many undocumented immigrants there are in the country. It is for this reason that we have seen the cycle of xenophobic violence that breaks out every few years, because people have lost hope in the department’s ability to curb the problem. It is only a matter of months before we will see yet again another flare up of xenophobic violence in the country and only then will our useless government start taking the matter seriously.

Until these critical areas of performance are adequately addressed, the DA will continue to raise its voice in this House and these reports, which are merely intended as a formality rather than a genuine attempt to provide an efficient and effective service to the citizens of the country... [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon Chair, you know the chairperson of the portfolio committee what he has done this evening, it is like a man gasping for air on his last piece of breath when he is being strangled protecting the Guptas and protecting Malusi Gigaba, that is all what he is doing.
We have seen even the Minister herself of this portfolio committee, she is not here. She has even proved it in her question and answering session that, given the chance if she were to be the Minister or had been the Minister she would have done exactly the same as Malusi Gigaba, receiving bags of money through the backdoor and giving the Guptas citizenship.

The financial report raised a number of questions about the department’s capacity to carry out its mandated responsibility in terms of a rash of issues, particularly around reaching out to rural woman to ensure that babies are registered at birth and that old people are registered so that they can qualify for government pensions and grants. The issue of urban bias of this department has been here by us for a very long time, but the ANC does not listen. The expenditure report raised concerned about the department’s inability to roll out

smart cards to every corner of the country, not to mention in this report but severely impacted on service delivery is the corruption embedded in this department. This corruption reaches its height when the Gupta puppet Malusi Gigaba was at the helm of this department. The unwise awarding of South African citizenship to that family was engineered by Malusi Gigaba full well-knowing that his next trip would be paid ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Please remember that in the House we address members of the House either as Mr, Ms and honourable.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Noted, Chair. Mr Malusi Gigaba, as corrupt as it is we have to respond to him still as Mr.

... full well-knowing that the Guptas will pay for his next trip to go and see his mistress. Therefore, he has given the citizenship to the Guptas on a silver platter for a ticket to United States to go and see Buhle. He did not stop there; they attempted to take away from the SA Revenue Service, Sars, the responsibility of collecting tariffs in awarding through ... [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Chairperson. I am rising on Rule 84. The member in the podium is casting aspersions on the character of hon Gigaba by saying that the Guptas will pay for something abroad, please.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: They did.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! You know the rules that if you want to make a substantive motion you must do so.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you, Chair. However, allow the Chairperson of the Home Affairs Committee to stop blocking Malusi Gigaba or Mr Gigaba for coming here to Parliament to come and answer these questions. They must stop blocking some corrupt elements that are allowing that people of South Africa can’t even get an ID. They must stop blocking Malusi Gigaba to come and answer critical questions, and he must come and defend himself. His wife is an information technology, IT, specialist, but she is creating logos for the department. Therefore, they must allow him to come and account here and stop blocking him ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! Hon Ntlangwini, no matter how heated the debate might be, but remember to address a member appropriately.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Okay! This is not rudeness, Chair, but those who are protecting and safeguarding the professors of corrupt activities in South Africa will always say, even Mrs Manana over there, whose brother has hit women, that I am jealous of protected corrupt elements. I will never be jealous, my sister, we will safeguard this country and we will never be jealous when a person steals money out of the state coffers because our only role and responsibility will be to protect South Africa from elements like you. He is now gone to complete the capture at the Treasury. He has safeguarded and paved the way to steal more and loot more in SA Airways, SAA, Transnet, Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and all of these state entities. We therefore reject these quarterly reports. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can I address you once again? Please the debate, indeed, needs to be robust as much as we can, but I think we need to

remind ourselves of our rules that we have all agreed in this House, that when we have issues that border to reflect on others as though it is genuine without us maybe having put this substantive motion, we shouldn’t do so, so that we don’t spend more time trying to correct one another including how we address one another. It is important that we do so.

Hon member, is it your first time? I nearly gave you an honour of being your maiden speech, but anyway now I know that you are old and you know rules too. Go ahead.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr X NGWEZI: Chairperson, I deliver this declaration on behalf of my colleague, the hon Nkomo. The department’s priorities for the 2015-2016 financial year were correctly centred around three strategic areas of focus namely, the South African citizenship and identity, a secure and responsive immigration system and efficient client centred service to the citizens and immigrants coupled with governance and administration and a zero tolerance approach to crime and fraud.

In our own personal experience and in our interactions with the Department of Home Affairs on behalf of our constituencies from a ministerial right through the Department of Home Affairs branch level, the IFP must acknowledge and commend the department on some improvements made in all of the above areas. We still find certain issues problematic though particularly in respect of certain permanent residence applications, ones that have been submitted only to be rejected incorrectly by officials and appeals then having to be filed. The Department of Home Affairs’ scrutinising process and officials involved in this perhaps requires further refinement and training in this regard. Targets achieved by the department in the 2016-2017, where second quarter equals at least 78% of targets achieved, and on the third quarter with 71% of targets achieved is again progress but the department can do better. Vacancies caused by the attrition of immigration is a cause for concern and the reasons behind this must be investigated and corrective actions be taken.

In conclusion, a greater outreach programme is needed in our rural areas in respect of the conversion of the old

green ID books to the new smart cards. The mobile Department of Home Affairs should be deployed in greater capacity to facilitate the conversion of the citizenry through the smart card system. The IFP then supports the report. Thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, first and foremost we want to say we do no not note the strides that the department has made and we really commend the department for that but whenever we say anything we say it in bona fides. So I think we must be ready enough to accept constructive criticism and be able to take the department forward accordingly. Having said that, we do note that the department has a mandate to secure and maintain a record of identity of all South African citizens, to facilitate a secure, accurate and responsive immigration system and to provide associated services to the public that are accessible and efficient.

And we do note that the department also has made some strides with regard to the smart identity card and we believe that this problem plays a great deal in making our South Africans become fully fledged South Africans

and we note also that the green barcoded IDs had the problem of fraud and forgery and through the new system that has been rolled-out we are able to curb fraud and forgery but of course the department must make sure that it becomes more vigorous especially in the rural areas in ensuring that people do get these smart identity cards and of course that means the department to work with other departments, to partner with other departments to ensure that this programme is rolled-out and having said that, we also note that the department should work in tandem with banks in ensuring that this programme also is rolled-out. But of course, as the NFP, we have a particular concern with regard to the state of immigration and the status of immigrants inside the country and we have been saying time and again that our borders are porous and we are saying that in good faith.

We have all seen incidents of xenophobic violence flare up over the past few years and the NFP believes that much of the momentum for such violence can be attributed to the fact that many South Africans do not have faith in the enforcement of our immigration policy. The day when South Africans can be assured that all foreign nationals

who live and work in South Africa are here as bona fide refugees, asylum seekers or people who hold scarce vocational skills will be a day when we are able to say that chances of xenophobic violence recurring are slim. But of course there are also opportunists that must be dealt with because in the whole issue of xenophobia and Afrophobia we have opportunists who attack our fellow Africans and we must deal with them. [Time expired.] The NFP supports the report but the issue of the Guptas, taken as a package, must be dealt with. Thank you.

Mr B L MASHILE: House Chair, I think we will also really welcome the support from other opposition parties for these reports. Of course we regret the sensational obsession about hon Gigaba. The hon member who is saying, I think and I still believe that he is really mischievous in this particular matter because he has asked this question about the Gupta family twice last year and was answered exactly in this House, given exactly the same answers and now this particular matter is referred to our committee, it is still being considered by the committee but when he comes up here he forgets we are talking about

quarterly reports and reduces the debate on the quarterly reports then to the Gupta family.

It is just unfortunate, sensational and opportunistic. Hon members, the Department of Home Affairs is daily available to service more than 56 million citizens and foreign nationals who are within our boundaries. The services rendered to these nationals are but not limited to issuing of enabling documents relating to identity and status of nationals, documenting and management of asylum seekers, regulating movement of persons in and out of the country and collaboration with stakeholders in support of service delivery. The above services involve the issuing of birth certificates, green ID books and smart ID cards which of course the other opposition parties have already indicated that there are much more improvements in that service delivery. Passports which some of the hon members can attest to that within five days of applying you receive your passport, then permits and visas and verification to other departments on the identity of individuals within the country. This department is important to everybody and needs our total undivided

support and then the ANC supports the adoption of these reports. Thank you very much.

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

First Quarter 2016/17 Expenditure and Performance

accordingly adopted.

Report on Department of Home Affairs Second and Third Term Expenditure and Performance Reports for 2016/17 accordingly adopted.





Ms N R BHENGU: Chairperson and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development processed four oversight reports. The first one was a visit to KwaZulu- Natal, the second one was also a visit to KwaZulu-Natal, the third visit was to Limpopo and the fourth visit was to Mpumalanga.

We want to report to this House for the adoption of the reports which were adopted by the portfolio committee. However, we want to highlight that when the Department of Small Business Development was established it raised high expectations for better support services to Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, and co-operatives. It gave hope to self-employed, unemployed young people and poor families who survived on social grants.

When accepting our deployment to the Portfolio Committee on Small Business Development, we accepted with vigour and enthusiasm, informed by our understanding for the

need of locating the Department of Small Business Development at the centre of the radical economic transformation agenda, with a specific focus on facilitating the participation of poor communities in the mainstream economy; reducing dependency of poor families on social grants and government free services; facilitating the shifting of fiscal expenditure from consumption to production; the creation of 90% of
11 million new jobs through small businesses by 2030 and building a developmental state.

We are sorry that we are not going to tell a good story. However, we believe that telling the truth will enable the Parliament to look at how to assist in the process of addressing current challenges to create a situation where the needs of the SMMEs and co-operatives could be adequately addressed.

Our view is that, the pro-poor agenda is being compromised, and if we do not make Parliament aware, history will judge us harshly. Our oversight to all the provinces indicates that there is a lack of capacity in

the department. There is also 88% failure rate in the co- operatives in South Africa.

All the funded co-operatives by the department are not integrated in the integrated development plans, IDPs, of the municipalities, resulting in them not getting complimentary services located in the other departments and spheres of government. However, we feel that the lack of capacity can be addressed by either training the personnel that is there, and also having exchanged programmes and help people seconded in the department to build its capacity.

We have also identified that the support systems are not adequately addressing the felt needs of the co-operatives and the SMMEs. The department is funded with 1,6 billion and the needs of the co-operatives and the SMMEs far exceeds that kind of budget. Also, the issue of technical training is required because we are dealing with some people that are illiterate and lack the technical skills. The current funding doesn’t take care of that.

We also suspect that in the department and Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefathere is corruption. We have made specific recommendations for each of the observations in the committees and we have engaged with the Minister on the lack of capacity. We feel that we are on top of issues and we are asking the House to adopt all the reports. Thank you. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIR (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much Ncolosi. Just to digress a bit, maybe hon Sonti and hon Khawula will tell us where is this wedding because I saw them ululating when the other two people were going out. But they will tell me outside of this meeting.

There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Reports be adopted.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr R W T CHANCE: House Chair, you’ve heard what the chairperson said. It is a very unusual statement from a member of a ruling party, if I may say so, criticising

her own department. It is clear that a vale of tears has descended on this committee after it experienced profound frustration and dissatisfaction on its oversight visits as described by the chairperson.

What we found left members dispirited at government’s incapacity to do even the most basic things required to improve the lives of our people. In KwaZulu-Natal, the department has supported a number of primary co- operatives for over two years through its Co-operative Incentive Scheme. A technical partner provides training in business management and other things and new technologies to improve productivity and vegetable quality.

But due to unclear terms of the agreements between the department, the service provider and the co-operatives, a shortfall in projected revenues, operational costs not being covered and other factors, these co-operatives have largely failed to deliver on their promise and are struggling to survive.

On 2 August, the service provider wrote to Minister Zulu and the department requesting clarity on its role, but nothing has materialised. He and the co-operatives he is supporting, at his own cost, are crying for help, with no resolution in sight. Our visit to Limpopo, back in February, brought us face to face with many small businesses and co-operatives established with high hopes, but now facing ruin.

For example, Mr Shilowa, a member of the Ximbambani Construction Co-operative in Mahlathi village, pleaded for the committee to intervene in its dispute with the province which failed in its promise to give them contracts to supply bricks for the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses. They are crying!

After our four days, we had a debrief in the Polokwane offices of Capricorn Municipality. It became clear that there was no cooperation between the department, Sefa, Seda and the local municipalities, each spending money and the resources which simply drained away or just ticked boxes. It makes you want to cry.

In Mpumalanga, the committee set 13 co-operatives of which only one showed any signs of becoming a viable and sustainable business. The Local Economic Development, LED, in the host municipalities, either did not know about these co-operatives or failed to provide basic utilities such as power, sanitation, water and making it very difficult for them to conduct business. They are crying.

In the DA’s view, money spent on primary co-operatives should instead be spent on supporting secondary co- operatives where better business skills and economies of scale are likely to lead to a higher success rate. The story of the four Mzansi co-operatives, also in Mpumalanga, is one of inexcusable mismanagement and waste. Even after a R20 million loan from Sefa to build four chicken houses, the co-operatives were at the end of their tether, having not received any income from their supposed partner for months. They are crying!

The committee has initiated two investigations emanating from these oversight visits. The first is into possible corruption and collusion between staff in the department,

Seda, Sefa and the service providers. They were often appointed by dubious means against the will of the beneficiaries. The second is into the conduct of Sefa, whose appalling lending record speaks for itself.

In the last financial year, 47% of its loan book was written off and it is bleeding money. Sefa is embroiled in numerous legal disputes with the nonpaying clients, illustrating an urgent need to bulk up its post loan support capacity. In the committee yesterday, the sense of despair and frustration was too much for our Chair, the hon Bhengu, who quietly shed her own tears.

She, and the members, pondered the future of a department which showed such promise at birth but, three years later, has dismally failed and should be put to a premature end as soon as possible. It is with a great deal of sadness that the DA supports these reports. [Applause.]

Declarations contd:

Mr T E MULAUDZI: Hon Chairperson, the small, medium-sized and microenterprises, SMMEs, and the co-operatives in

South Africa particularly those in the informal sector and rural areas, have a few economic spaces where the blacks make up the majority. Despite this the government continue to neglect and to undermine the informal sectors in the rural areas, which constitute most of the small businesses and co-operative in South Africa.

On the oversight visit to Limpopo, Mpumalanga and KZN, we found serious challenges facing the co-operatives and small businesses. Most of the issues raised by the small businesses and co-operatives are late payments by the government, lack of access to market, no access to finance, high cost interest loan and the harassment by the police, especially on hawkers.

When coming to the oversight visit, Chairperson, you are unrealistic with NDP policy 2030, which the EFF rejected that is not real, which says that you will create
9,9 million jobs in 2030. How can you make so while there is always a mortality rate of the co-operatives at 80%?
The 30% procurement policy to the SMMEs and co-operatives as it was said here during the state of the nation in 2015 is happening.

The 30 days payment by the government institution and the SOEs to the Small-Medium Micro Enterprises and co- operatives is very minimal.


Kha ri ambe nga vhulavhelsi ha Limpopo. Ro ya Tshakhuma makete. Ro wana hu si na mabunga, hu si na ha u ṱambela, hu si na mapulasiṱiki a u fara malatwa. U swika na zwino a vha athu ita tshithu na tshithihi tsha u lugisa uri zwithu izwi zwi vhe hone.


We went to Mpumalanga and found so many white elephants. The poultry farms which the chickens were supplied a day before Parliament arrived ... [Laughter.] So it shows that the Department of Small Business is failing.

We went to KwaZulu-Natal where there is initiative by Kohwa Holdings, which is a new innovation to assist our people but the department again is rejecting that initiative. Out of 400 co-operatives, which were given money through the scheme called Co-operative Incentive Scheme, only 300 are nowhere to be found. We only found

less than 100 which mean that there other 300 are bogus co-operatives but the money was released though the department can’t trace those co-operatives.

Since the established of this department in 2014 no transversal agreement was signed. The Department of Agriculture, Rural Development, SAA and Social Development are doing their own co-operative development while we have a department which must co-ordinate as such.

The SEFA and the SEDA are also not helping our people. Nobody is looking after our people to ensure that these institutions help our people and as such, as the EFF we see that an abuse of the poor of the poorest. The township malls are suffocating the small businesses. As the EFF, we reject this report because is not helping with anything as the department is failing.


Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza Majoka, waze wangibiza kakhle. Ngiphakama ukwethula lo mbiko egameni lika

zakwethu umhlonishwa Nkomo ongekho phakathi kwethu namhlanje.


Chairperson, in response of the portfolio committee short oversight visit in KwaZulu-Natal undertaken during 14-15 September 2016, in order to inspect the twelve KZN agricultural co-operatives distributed over five municipalities, the IFP wishes to thank the portfolio committee for scheduling this over its prior planned visit to the Free State Province.

These co-operatives are fundamental in breaking new entrepreneurial ground for our people and we want the new Ansiza worked out correctly and the system refined. This project can then be rolled out all over South Africa.

The IFP wishes to stress though that funding and the availability of funding through out the roll out of these projects is fundamental and critical to their successes and must be equally and tailor made to the requirements of each co-operative.

Stakeholder workshops in this regard play a critical role as vital feed back can be received and corrective actions taken. The IFP further emphasises that this can not be a fund and walk away model. This will only spell out doom and failure for these co-operatives. It must be sustained and an on going partnership between the state and these co-operatives if they are to serve as the tool for economic development of our community and our country.

Issues raised by co-operatives involvement include absence of incubation support, skills development, training, poor support with regard to equipments and machinery, tractors and a lack of mentorship training. These are all keys to their success and the department must ensure that such blockages to success are removed.

Our development finance system institutions must also ensure that their financial products meet the requirements of the applicants. Matched max products lead to failed enterprises. Our Foreign Direct Investment, DFI, consultants must also be skilled in the knowledge of the industry they are funding. We don’t want to find a situation wherein applicants are turned down for finance

because the DFI officially lacks the requisite knowledge and understanding of the industry he/she is meant to be assisting and evaluating on.

In conclusion, the importance of this department to our people and our economy can’t be overstated. It is a life line to jobs, security and economic prosperity that will directly affect the lives of the millions of South Africans. We must get it right for the first time and in doing so properly serve the people of South Africa


Sengigcina Sihlalo, ngiyafisa ukuthi yimbi kabi le nto eyenzeke eThekwini ukuthi abantu abadayisa ikakhulukazi emigwaqweni ubafice sebajahwa amaphoyisa ngoba bathi abanayo imvume yokudayisa. Amaphoyisa kumele ajahe izigebengu kodwa wona ajaha abantu abasebenzayo.


Mnu S C MNCWABE: Siyathokoza Majobe, bahlonishwa ngiyanibingelela, ...


... the NFP supports the adoption of this report ...


Okusikhathazayo ukuthi kubonakala sengathi umnyango uhamba kancane ekufezeni amaphupho owasungulelwa wona. Kubonakala sengathi owezi-2030 uzoshaya nje maduze umnyango ungakasukumi. Uma singakhuluma iqiniso singafihli, kubukeka sengathi umqondisi-jikelele womnyango akazazi noma uyangena noma uyaphuma yini. Lokho kunikeza uvalo lokuthi            kukhona yini lapho siya khona.

Ngibe nenhlanhla yokuthi wonke lama-oversight womathathu ngiwahambele. Kuyajabulisa ukuthi abantu bakithi bayazihlanganisa benze imifela ndawonye, abanye baqale amabhizinisi. Kodwa kubukeka bekhungathekile kakhulu ukuthola izinsiza nokuthola nje iminyango yalezi zinhlaka ezingaphansi komnyango ezifana no-Sida no-Sefa, kuyinkiyankiya kukodwa. Uma banama-ofisi asemadolobheni kodwa abantu bengekho lapho.

Ezinye izinkinga esizibonile ukuthi njengoba usihlalo evezile, kunenkohlakalo Sekela Ngqongqoshe walo mnyango,

ohamba phansi emnyangweni. Kwezinye izindawo besifika abantu bakithi bathi sinenkinga yokuthi kunabasebenzi abathile emnyangweni abasiphoqayo ukuthi sisebenze nale nkampani, ukuthi siqeqeshe le engafunwa yithi. Lokho kukodwa kuveza izinsolo zokuthi kungani abasebenzi bomnyango kuyibona abazokhethela amabhizinisi asebenza ngokubambisana [co-ops] ukuthi asebenze naziphi izinkampani.

Lokho kuyakhathaza ngoba kukhombisa ukuthi kukhulu okuzayo, ngeke umnyango ukwazi ukusukuma. Kufanele inkohlakalo iphuthunywe ivinjwe ingakakhuli. Kodwa kakhulukazi nabo abantu bomnyango sengathi bayadinga ukuqeqeshwa ngoba kukhona abangazi ukuthi usomabhizinisi omncane ukuze asukume udingani nokuthi umfela ndawonye i- co-operative idinga ukuqeqeshwa kanjani.

Uma kungabasebenzi bomnyango abangakazazi ukuthi bayangena noma bayaphuma, ngeke sikwazi ukuthuthukisa abantu bakithi kanti kubalulekile ukuthi sibakhiphe ezibonelelweni zikahulumeni. Bakwazi ukuzimela, bazondle, bazibone ukuthi banamakhono, babalulekile ezweni.
Ukuphila ngemali yembonelelo akuvezi ukuthi uyisakhamuzi

esinikelayo emnothweni wezwe, uhleli uzizwa nje. Kubalulekile ukuthi sibakhe, sibaqeqeshe abantu bakithi bazimele. Yiwo wona lo mnyango ofanele wenze le nto kodwa uma sino-DG ofana nalo okhona ongazi ukuthi uya emuva noma uya phambili, ngeke sikwazi ukuwafeza lawo maphupho.

Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kodwa umbiko siyawamukela ngoba nami bengikhona.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks A T DIDIZA): Ngiyabonga kakhulu nokusho impela ukuthi nawe ube ukhona, ufakaze.
Malibongwe igama likaMabaso umhlonishwa.


Nkul X MABASA: Manana Mutshamaxitulu, mabindzu lamatsongo ma fanele ku tirhisiwa hi ndlela yo hunguta vusweti na vusiwana eka tiko ra Afrika-Dzonga. Matiko yo fana na Spain, Italy, France, Tanzania na Kenya ma tiyisisa matimba ya mabindzu lamatsongo. Leswaku mabindzu lamatsongo ma humelele, ma fanele ku seketeriwa hi tindlela leti landzelaka ku fana na vuleteri, switirhisiwa na mali.

Eka vuleteri, xikombiso xa vuleteri lebyi pfunaka hi xi vone eKenya laha hi nga kuma leswaku va na yunivhesiti yo letela mabindzu lamatsongo ntsena.

Eka switirhisiwa, swi fanerile leswaku vanhu lava va tirhaka eswitarateni, lava va xavisaka eswitichini na le switichini swa mabadzi, va va na mati leswaku loko va ri karhi va xavisa miroho na mihandzu swa vona va kota ku hlamba mavoko no hlantswa leswi va swi xavisaka. Gezi na rona ri fanele ri ri kona hikuva van’wana va xavisa ku kondza ku va xinyami. Vanhu lava va fanele va nyikiwa switirho swo rima hi swona leswaku va rima va byala mavele na swin’wana swibyariwa.

Eka mali, nhlangano wa Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, wu fanele wu pfuna vanhu hi mali leswaku va kota ku endla leswi swi nga ta kurisa mabindzu ya vona. Nseketelo wa vuleteri tanihi hi ku dyondzisa swirho ntirho, swi fanele swi endliwa hi xiyenge xa Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda. Loko mihlangano leyi ha mimbirhi, Seda na Sefa, yi nga tirhi hi ku tiyimisela, leswi swi ta endla leswaku van’wamabindzu lamatsongo va nga humeleli.

Swiphemu swinharhu swa tiko swi fanele swi tirhisana - mfumo wa le xikarhi, swifundzhankulu na mfumo wa miganga. Xiphemu xin’wana na xin’wana xi ni ntokoto wa xona.
Xin’wana xi ni ntokoto wa leswi, kasi xin’wana xi ni ntokoto wa leswiya.

Vahlanganisi lava va tekaka mali va vula leswaku hi vona tintsumi to hlanganisa leti fambisaka mali, hi fanele ku va herisa hikuva i swigevenga. Loko va varhumiwa ku yisa mali eka swisiwana laha ndleleni va teka mali leyi va hoxa eswikhwameni swa vona. Vahlanganisi vona a hi lavi na ku va vona. Va fanele va hungutiwa kumbe va herisiwa. Loko mfumo wu seketela mabindzu lamatsongo mali yi fanele ku fika laha yi faneleke yi fika kona yi helerile naswona yi nga yiviwanga endleleni.

Loko vamanana wa hina va ha xavisa swipinichi kambe va nga kuli, a swi kahle. Loko vamanana wa hina va ha xavisa tihuku na ticondzo kambe va nga koti ku kula va va eka mpimoxikarhi, sweswo a swi amukeleki. Vusiwana a byi nga suki eAfrika-Dzonga loko hi nga koti ku tlakusa mabindzu lamatsongo ma va eka xiyimo xa mpimoxikarhi va tlhela va tlakuka va va mabindzu lamakulu.

Lexi ndzi hambanaka na xona na DA hi loko va vula leswaku ndzawulo leyi yi herisiwa. Eka sweswo ndzi ri e-e, a hi swona. N’wina vanhu va DA a mi voni kahle. Hi fanele hi lunghisa leswi swi nga onheka endzeni ka ndzawulo. Hina hi ri ANC hi ri xiviko lexi xi nga vumbiwa hi hina, xi tlhela xi vumbiwa hi nwina, ha xi amukela naswona ha xi seketela. Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.


Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report on oversight visit to Limpopo accordingly adopted.

Report on oversight visit to Mpumalanga province accordingly adopted.

Report on visit to KwaZulu-Natal province accordingly adopted.

Report on oversight visit to KwaZulu-Natal province accordingly adopted.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

notes the death of the Commander of the Lesotho Defence Force Chief, Lieutenant General Khoantle Motsomotso, who was killed on 5 September 2017, reportedly by army commanders;

further notes that two other people who were involved in the shooting had been killed;

realises that this unfortunate incident happened not long after the Kingdom of Lesotho had conducted peaceful and democratic elections;

acknowledges that Prime Minister Thomas Thabane won elections in June, returning him to power three years after he fled Lesotho because of fears that he was an assassination target;

understands that the Southern African Development Community, SADC, will dispatch a ministerial
fact-finding mission to the Kingdom of Lesotho to assess the situation and determine the required intervention mechanism; and

extends its deepest condolences to the family of the deceased, the government and the people of the Kingdom of Lesotho.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr D BERGMAN: I move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House -

notes that on Friday, 1 September 2017, the Kenyan Supreme Court declared the 2017 Kenyan elections to be invalid;

further notes that this ruling came after a heavily contested election on 8 August, in which results were widely disputed;

also notes that the elections were characterised by sporadic acts of violence, intimidation and reports of vote rigging;

acknowledges this historic ruling by the Supreme Court of Kenya and its implications for African democracy, the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary;

further acknowledges that fresh elections must be held by 31 October 2017;

calls on the Kenyan people and the electoral commission to organise credible, free and fair elections scheduled for 17 October, within the stipulated 60 days; and

conveys our message of support to our Kenyan brothers and sisters during this turbulent and historic time.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): If there are no objections I put the motion.

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, a correction on the statement if the DA allows. It is the presidential elections and not the elections of Kenya. So if they say the elections of Kenya we are going to oppose it. If they say presidential elections we will not oppose it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): So, is the correction accepted? [Interjections.] Okay.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chair, the first duty of a revolutionary is to be educated. It is with these words in mind, said by the great Che Guevara, that I rise to move without notice on behalf of our great movement the EFF:

That the House -

congratulates the commander in chief and the president of the EFF and South Africa in waiting, Julius Malema, for the completion of his Bachelor of Arts Honours degree;

notes that it gives us great pleasure that, for the second time in three weeks, we come up here to congratulate a national leader of the EFF for furthering his studies;

further notes that, despite all the pressures of serving our people in the EFF, Parliament, Africa and the world, the commander in chief Julius Malema still made time to further his education, and add to the knowledge and wisdom with which he will lead the country and continue to inspire Africa and the world;

realises that we have made this motion with the full knowledge that fees remain the biggest stumbling block for many to access free education;

understands that this achievement shows the need for fees to fall and proves to all that those who demand the end to fees in universities do so because they are indeed academically deserving;

recognises that we congratulate our commander in chief and future President of South Africa. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member, your time is up. If there are no objections I put the motion. Is that an objection?

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, we have a problem with the term president in waiting, as well as the incoming president. If they amend that then we are fine but if they want to insist then we are going to oppose it. We wanted to support it but if they become ... [Inaudible.]

Mr T RAWULA: Order, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, no, no, order hon member.

Mr T RAWULA: Order Chair. He has got the right to object to the motion or not and stop making ... [Inaudible.] ... here. Please object if you want to object to education.
We are giving education excellence here. Why do you what to object to education excellence? Stop this thing, man.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member ... Order, order! Hon members, parties can make proposals for

corrections to motions. It is not out of exception. So I am not sure whether the EFF listened to that correction. Okay, wait, wait hon member. So if you are not accepting the correction then the motion falls away because there was an objection. Yes?

Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, I rise on a point of order: We do not take orders from the ANC with regard to what to include in our motion ... [Inaudible.].

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member!

Mr N S MATIASE: He had the right to object to our motion, but failing to do so he forfeited his right to make such a motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Matiase, no, no, he didn’t.

Mr N S MATIASE: Don’t apply double standards. He has forfeited his right to object to our motion. Can we move on?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Matiase, I do not think your intervention is helpful in anyway nor is it correct. Your member stood up before I even asked. The party raised an issue in that they would like to make a correction, if you so agree. So you are indicating that you are not agreeing and they did say in their intervention that if you do not agree they will then object. So ... no, no, members, let us not make your intervention a political statement. The motion falls away.

Mr T RAWULA: Order Chair. Please refer us to the rule. The member there asked us to make an amendment and we have not done that. Therefore, he has a right to rise and say he is objecting on the basis that we are not amending. Refer us to ... apprise us of ... the rule that you are applying because I saw Mr Jackson Mthembu telling him, chief, you are being childish. Leave this thing. He said that. So he did not object to the motion. Please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take a seat?


Ingxaki nani nisuke nigqibe kwinto esingekayigqibi.


That is the problem. You also do not allow us enough time to mediate and assist in the process. Can I ask once again whether there are any objections to the motion? Are there any objections to the motion of the EFF?

Agreed to.


Asihlaleni phantsi ke sizole bantakwethu.

Mr T RAWULA: Chair, can you put it on record that there is no objection to the motion? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The ANC? You know, I can appreciate that it’s very late for all of us. Its 19:40pm on the last day of the plenary and I can imagine that we are tired. The hon member of the ANC?


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the southern Chinese region around Hong Kong was hit by a deadly Typhoon Hato storm on Wednesday, 23 August 2017;

further notes that the death toll as a result of the most powerful storm in half a century had risen to 12 people;

acknowledges that 153 people were injured amid extensive flooding, power outages caused by the high winds and driving rain;

recalls that the city of Hong Kong saw its most severe storm in 1962, when the eye of Typhoon Wanda killed 130 people, destroyed thousands of residential huts and left 72 000 people homeless;

understands that almost 2 million households lost power temporarily, while fishing boats were called back to port;

further understands that almost 27 000 people were evacuated to emergency shelters;

stands in solidarity with the Chinese nation during these difficult times; and

conveys its condolences to the President of the Republic of China, the families of the deceased and the Chinese nation.

I thank you Chair.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that September 2017 marks Albinism Awareness month;

further notes that the Albinism Society of South Africa launched a campaign to provide assistance to all those living with albinism;

recognises that myths pertaining to the condition prevail, and that people living with albinism are at greater risk of being trafficked or being murdered often for their body parts;

accepts that much more must be done to assist, protect and safeguard the rights of people living with albinism;

thanks civil society organisations and in particular the Albinism Society of South Africa and the National Council for Persons with Disabilities for the invaluable work they continue to do in protection of the most vulnerable in our society; and

calls on members of this House to be advocates for the rights of people living with this disabilities, particularly in September in order to bring about greater awareness and understanding of different conditions.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that September marks the annual Heritage Month in South Africa;

further notes that this Month recognises aspects of South African culture which are both tangible and intangible: creative expression such as music and performances, historical inheritance, language and the food we eat;

understands that South Africa is home to eight of the 981 World Heritage Sites which are recognised by the United Nations Educational and Scientific Organisation as places of outstanding cultural and historical importance;

acknowledges that the theme for this year’s heritage month is “The Year of Oliver Reginald Tambo: Celebrating our Liberation Heritage”; and

calls upon all South Africans to promote national identity that is self-conscious of its liberation heritage which will in turn serve to promote unity in diversity among all sectors of South African society. I so move.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I can see hon Ollis is very busy today networking across parties. My apologies, I forgot to ask the NFP, can I ask the NFP for their motion now?

Ms M S KHAWULA: Ayikho!

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon Chair. On behalf of the NFP I move without notice ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order, hon Maynier! Hon Maynier, let’s be in order otherwise we will all leave here at midnight. [Laughter.]

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: But, hon Chairperson that’s how they behave when others are speaking.

Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Khawula, what is your point of order?


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngibona sengathi wenze iphutha, uthe i- NFP kanti kusukuma i-ANC. [Uhleko.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I wish we still had floor crossing, I am sure we would have had Mam Khawula on some party of the House.

Prof N M KHUBISA: No, no, no I’m just cooling them down. The member is not in war now he is in peace. Can they allow him to speak now?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Now I don’t understand what you are talking about, let’s allow the member to give the motion without notice.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that thousands of Rohingya Muslims are being killed, some even burnt to death in the most horrific manner;

further notes that thousands more are being displaced daily;

realises that those being killed include innocent men, women and children;

further notes that the massacre of the Rohingya people by the Myanmar authorities continues unabated despite condemnation from many leaders internationally;

acknowledges that thousands have fled the country to avoid torture, many of whom have not been given asylum, resulting in one of the greatest human tragedies;

calls upon this hon House to condemn the killings of innocent men, women and children;

requests the Myanmar consulate in South Africa; and

expresses our concerns at the atrocities levelled against the Rohingya Muslims and other minorities; and

urges government to use whatever diplomatic means possible to end the crisis in Myanmar.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that Project Isizwe is a nonprofit organisation that is committed to enabling sustainable free internet access in low-income communities across South Africa;

further notes that Project Isizwe is dedicated to help accelerate local free Wi-Fi projects in South Africa;

believes that access to internet and information is vital to bringing connectivity to all South Africans;

recalls that the General Assembly of the United Nations on 30 June 2016, declared connectivity as a human right which must be enjoyed by all the global citizens;

recognises that between 2015 and 2017, Project Isizwe won numerous awards on Africa.comWorld Wi-Fi Day, Wi-Fi Now International, Fire Africa, BookMarks Gold, BookMarks Silver, and World Summit Awards; and

congratulates Project Isizwe for its great contribution in making the lives of less-fortunate people better and for its sterling achievements.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can we be in order. I know you are very tired. That issue you are raising about who is thieving, who is – is still going to be a matter that hon Boroto must rule on.


Asiyeke ...


...because I’m not sure whether they are talking about those who are thieving or about drunkards because “Sela” means two things: It is either you thief or Sela means


... unxilile. Masiyiyeke ke ngoku eyamanxila apha eNdlwini yoWiso-mthetho.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms E R WILSON: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that Pieter “SupaPiet” du Preez won South Africa’s first gold medal at the 2017 Union Cycliste Internationale, UCI, Para-cycling Road World Championship in Pietermaritzburg this last weekend;

also notes that du Preez secured a silver medal in the time trials the Thursday before;

acknowledges that Du Preez was defending his jersey and title from 2015;

further acknowledges that he completed the 30,4 kilometers route in a time of 1:22:29, a full 45 seconds ahead of Benjamin Fruh of Switzerland;

further notes that Du Preez, a previous Laureus World Sports Awards nominee, is a class H1 quadriplegic rider paralysed from the shoulders down, with limited use of his hands who has also competed in the para-Ironman competition;

congratulates Pieter du Preez on this extraordinary achievement;

thanks him for being an inspiration to both able bodied and physically challenged people alike; and

appreciates that he brought South Africa an international accolade to be proud of and held our flag high.

Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)


Mnu T RAWULA: Sihlalo weNdlu, ndenza isiphakamiso ngaphandle kwesaziso:

Sokuba le Ndlu-

iqaphele ukuba ngoMgqibelo, umhla we-9 kweyoMsintsi siza kube sigqiba iminyaka e-144 kwasweleka uNkosi Maqoma kaNgqika;

yazi ukuba uNkosi Maqoma wabanjwa wavalelwa izihlandlo ezibini eRobben Island apho waswelekela khona;

emva kokuchitha iminyaka engama-20 kwesi siqithi ekunye nezinye iinkosi zesizwe samaXhosa ezazilwela ukuhluthwa kwemihlaba yabantu abantsundu, uNkosi Maqoma wayeyiqonda ukuba idabi lokubuyiselwa komhlaba kubaniniyo lifanelwe ukuba libe lidabi lokumanya abantu abantsundu kuqala ukuze lube yimpumelelo;

iqwalasele nokuba uNkosi Maqoma udlale indima enkulu, yena ngenkqu, apho akhokele iimfazwe ezilithoba ezaliwa sisizwe samaXhosa, besilwela ukuhluthwa nokubiwa komhlaba ngamadlagusha;

emva kokuchitha iminyaka engama-20 esiqithini uNkosi Maqoma wabuyela kumhlaba owawuxuthwe ngamadlagusha ngenkani;

iqwalasele ukuba oku kwakubonisa ubugokra nokungavumi ukuxhatshazwa ngamadlagusha;

iyazi into yokuba idabi elalisiliwa nguNkosi Maqoma lokubuyiselwa komhlaba kwisizwe sabantsundu alikapheli;

iqaphela kananjalo ukuba umhlaba usesezandleni zamadlagusha;

oko kubonisa ukuthengiswa komzabalazo ngumbutho olawulayo; xa ndigqibelisa

thina sisisizukulwana esizinikele ekulweni inkululeko kude kubuye umhlaba wookhokho, asisayi konwaba.


Economic freedom in our lifetime. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, when we advise you that the time is up, please do appreciate.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J L MAHLANGU: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

congratulates Salmaa Vincent for being the first female marine pilot to hold an Open Licence certification in the Saldanha Port to guide ships of any type and size in and out of South African ports;

notes that Vincent completed her Harbour Master Diploma in October 2016 through IBC Academy in London;

further notes that she was able to apply her newly acquired Open Licence certification in July 2017, which enables her to guide a
350 metre long vessel with a deadweight tonnage of 300 000 into the port;

recalls that Vincent received a bursary from Transnet National Ports Authority;

further recalls that in 2008, she passed her oral exam with the South African Maritime Safety Authority;

remembers that Vincent completed her practical pilot training in Cape Town in September 2011 and qualified as a marine pilot and first served at the Port of Cape Town for three months before returning to the Port of Saldanha;

believes her success will inspire young black women in believing that dreams do come through even for a woman in a male dominated field; and

wishes her success in her position of responsibility.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am just alerting members that we are communicating with the buses - as you know that the last bus leaves at 8 o’clock - so that they don’t leave because the House is still sitting.

Agreed to.

(Draft Resolution)

Ms Z S DLAMINI: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that South Africa’s Kevin Anderson has reached the US Open semifinals after beating America’s Sam Querrey in their quarterfinal clash on Wednesday 6 September 2017 in New York;

further notes that this is Anderson’s first appearance in the last four tennis players of a Grand Slam, which is a great improvement on his quarterfinal run at the US Open in 2015;

recalls that Anderson is also the first South African to make it to the semifinals of the US Open in the Open Era of tennis after Wayne Ferreira at the 2003 Australian Open;

remembers that this is also after Cliff Drysdale, a South African, made it to the final of the 1965 US National Championships, as it was then called the US Open;

congratulates Anderson for the sterling performance and for raising of the South African flag high; and

wishes him a success in Friday’s semifinals match against Pablo Carreno Busta of Spain, which will see him reaching his first Grand Slam final if he wins the semifinals.

Agreed to.

(Draft Resolution)

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that South Africa’s economy exited technical recession with the GDP growth of 2,5;

further notes that the gains in the agricultural sector have calibrated the economic outlook of the country;

commends the partnership between labour, business and government for the manner in which they have sought to scale up the functioning of the economy; and

implores government to heighten conditional grants and subsidies to emerging co-operatives and agri-parks with a view to supporting the agricultural sector unreservedly.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Sisi Thoko, ndiyacela wethu ukuba uSekela Mongameli makangakhahleli ooMadiba phaya kuphela ashiye amaTshawe, zininzi iinkosi apha endlini. Yini le!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J L MAHLANGU: I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

notes that the Nelson Mandela University’s, NMU’s, pioneering microalgae-to-energy project is proving to be a highly versatile ecosolution;

recognises that besides cleaning up the atmosphere by mitigating carbon dioxide to grow the algae, and being a source of renewable energy, it is also an effective fertiliser, that can clean up oil-soaked soil, and can even be used to produce a low-smoke, long-lasting fuel for households;

recalls that the University’s internationally recognised institute for chemical technology, InnoVenton, started its microalgae project seven years ago with the aim of using the algae

to mitigate harmful carbon dioxide emissions from factory flue gas, and then harvesting the algal biomass for various renewable energy uses;

remembers that as the project progressed, the Department of Science and Technology approved funding for the construction of a small-scale technical demonstration facility at the Nelson Mandela University’s on-campus microalgae facility in Port Elizabeth;

recalls that last year, it met the target which was to produce five to six tons of Coalgae and sent samples to various external companies for testing;

understands that in their research, they found that in South Africa, more than 7 000 industrial boilers, all burning coal, were being used by various companies to generate heat and steam;

believes that the NMU’s pioneering microalgae- to-energy project is proving to be a highly versatile eco-solution; and

congratulates the team in charge of this pioneering project for their sterling work so far.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): If there are no objections, I put the motion. Motion has been ... [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, we usually have the debate on the state of the nation address. Is that going to be scheduled?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Hon Steenhuisen, that is not a point of order and you know it. I take it that there is no objection and therefore the motion is agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr A MCLOUGHLIN: I hereby move on behalf of the DA:

That this House -

notes that Mr Andrew Zaloumis resigned as the Chief Executive Officer of iSimangaliso Wetlands Park;

further notes that Mr Zaloumis has served the conservation industry with distinction for over
20 years;

recognise that Mr Zaloumis was instrumental in the establishment of South Africa’s first UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization World Heritage Site in 1999;

acknowledges his enormous contributions in combating malaria in KwaZulu-Natal: In creating thousands of job opportunities in both

conservation and the tourism industry; as well as winning numerous awards in relation to these contributions;

further acknowledges his efforts in combining conservation efforts with the upliftment of local communities; and

wishes him well on completing his studies at Cambridge University.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Those of you would remember Zaloumis working very hard on ensuring that iSimanga becomes one of the World Heritage Sites. [Interjections.] It is iSimangaliso Wetlands Park!


(Draft Resolution)

Mr J L MAHLANGU: I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -

congratulates Priscillah Mabelane on her appointment as the first woman CEO in the history of the country’s oil industry to head BP Southern Africa;

notes that Priscillah Mabelane took the helm of BP Southern Africa on Friday, 1 September 2017, six years after she joined the organisation as its chief financial officer, CFO;

further notes that Mabelane recently served as operations director for BP’s UK retail business, where she was credited with maintaining a strong safety record while delivering record levels of financial performance and progress on key strategic milestones;

recalls that prior her joining BP, she held various executive roles in large South African companies: Including Airports Company of South Africa, Acsa, where she was the CFO; Ernst & Young where she was a tax director; and Eskom where she held various roles in finance, tax and general management;

believes that Priscillah Mabelane, as a qualified chartered accountant with a BCom Honours in Accounting, is a capable and experienced leader who can take BP Southern Africa to greater heights;

further believes that her appointment as a CEO of BP Southern Africa will serve as a catalyst in inspiring young people to aspire for greater things in life;

thanks BP South Africa for commitment in women empowerment; and

wishes Priscillah more success in her new position of responsibility.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): That concludes Motions Without Notice, and we now move to the other item on the agenda, which is the Members’ Statements. [Interjections.]

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): We still have the other last item on the agenda. I have noted hon Singh and hon Waters. Hon Singh, can you take your seat. Hon ... [Interjections.]

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule 132: I think we have raised this issue ad nauseum of the absence of members of the executive. [Interjections.] You can keep quiet and listen. Hon Mashile is always disturbing. Thank you, Chair. Thank you! [Interjections.]


distracted, hon member. Can you proceed?

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I think South Africans need to know that there are some parliamentarians here who are committed to their responsibility and their duty. We are sitting here in Parliament at eight o’clock in the night from seven o’clock this morning, prepared to do our work for the nation.

We have only got two dedicated Deputy Ministers – and I take my hat off to them: The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs and the Deputy Minister of Small Business Development - who are treating us and Parliament with the respect that we deserve. It is just unacceptable that not a single member of the executive is here to respond to Members’ Statements. [Applause.]

I would be encouraged to say that we should call this item off the agenda today, but I know that this requires the resolution of the House. Notwithstanding that though, it is just not acceptable because the cameras: Firstly, won’t show the few members in the House; and secondly,

they won’t show that only two Deputy Ministers are here. I think we really need to address this matter very seriously. Thank you.

Mr M WATERS: Chair, I was going to rise on the same point of order. The fact of the matter is that we have reached a new low in Parliament today. It is a first time that not one single member of the executive is here to reply to Members’ Statements. It is a very first time of the Cabinet!

We have seen the numbers dwindle over time, but this is a new low. To put it into context: We have the biggest single Cabinet in the world. [Interjections.] The biggest Cabinet in the world; and not one Cabinet Minister could even attend tonight’s sitting of Parliament. That is a disdain that the Cabinet Ministers have for this House - for all of us. It is not just for the members on this side; but for the members on that side too.

While the Deputy Ministers are not Cabinet Ministers - not part of the executive – I do want to thank the two Deputy Ministers for being here, showing respect to this

House and to the work of the people of our nation. So, thank you very much for being here.

Chairperson, the importance of Members’ Statements, if I may, is the fact that Members of Parliament from both sides of the House bring matters of the people to be raised in Parliament in order for the executive to respond to, so that we can go to our constituencies and report back. However, we can’t do it today because none of them are here.

We did warn the ANC when we change the Rules of Parliament, you can remember – for those of you that were on the Rules Committee – and you can vouch for it: We warned you that by regulating the work of the people to the bottom of the Order Paper and elevating the work of the executive above that of the people’s business, ... [Interjections.] ... this is going to be the consequence. I am sorry to say: We are right, once again because no one is here!

Lastly, this week – in fact, yesterday – the Deputy President who is in charge of Government Business

promised us and bragged about the fact that he is cracking the whip with the Cabinet and that their performance would improve. Well, if this is his performance, I would hate to see what he is like when he becomes President of this country. [Interjections.]

Chair, it is high time that we can change the Rules and put the people’s business back at the top of the programmes, and not at the bottom. That’s what we have to do! [Applause.]


Waters, the issue with respect to the Rules and what needs to happen is that I am sure all of us know where we need to raise it. I just want to say to hon members: This matter was raised; and I asked the Chief Whips to do consult. I am expecting from them if they can advice.

Do you want to make a House resolution that this matter stands down or do you want to proceed? If we proceed, I would really want us to go through the Members’ Statements and proceed. Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon member, if you ... [Interjections.]

Mr T RAWULA: Chair, I want to rise on Rule 31.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Please take your seat. The hon Kwankwa rose on a point of order first.
Order, hon members! Hon members, please do not make unnecessary interjections. This matter is serious. In the Chief Whips’ Forum, this issue was discussed. Yesterday, the issue was discussed by the National Assembly Programming Committee. There was a discussion on the matter through questions to the Deputy President. I really want us to be respectful of one another on this important matter of accountability. As a House, we have a responsibility. So, can we please try to be respectful? [Interjections.] Hon Khawula, I really think you, too, should be in order. Hon Kwankwa?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, indeed, I agree entirely with your sentiments and the sentiments expressed by colleagues who spoke earlier – that this thing is actually very sad. It is a very sad state of affairs. It makes a mockery of Parliament and the mechanisms we have developed here to try and hold the executive to account.

I would like to propose or align myself with the proposal that we should say this matter must stand down, as a clear example, because if we read the statements, who is going to respond to them? Are we going to expect these Members of Parliament to respond to them? We only have two Deputy Ministers here. What is going to happen? No one is going to respond to them.

I don’t know how we are going to proceed with those statements going forward, as those people who have statements here would like members of the executive to respond to them. What are we saying? What are we doing? Thank you.

Mr T RAWULA: Chair, I was going to say the same thing, but let me raise the point. We have a number of statements relating to the portfolios of the Ministers of Social Development and Finance. Neither of them is here. So, we wish to concur with the proposal that the matter must stand down. I also want to register the disappointment of the EFF. We are not here because we want to play. The opposition benches are full. The reality is that the benches of the governing party are

empty. Most importantly, the Ministers are not here. All the member statements we were going to make – and, unfortunately, we will not have any time soon in this quarter to come back to the House, but we are expected to report on issues that we would have raised with the Ministers. Our people are expecting answers.
Unfortunately, the decorum of this House has been undermined. That must be put on record. Unfortunately, we cannot proceed. I concur that the matter should stand down. I will deal with these howlers and backbenchers outside. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! Hon members! The hon ANC member at the back, can we please be in order? As a Chair, I know when to ask members to take their seats. Please do not cochair from where you are sitting. [Interjections.] Hon Khubisa?

Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson ... Chair ... Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon members, please take a seat. Hon Sonti, I have called the NFP member to address me.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, we just want to concur with you, as well as with the members who have spoken before me. This matter was canvassed quite sharply yesterday and today, but it is really concerning that, having canvassed it widely, it seems the matter is exacerbating. We would have hoped that, at least, today there would have been an improvement, but there is really degeneration.

Having said that, Chairperson, it is our fervent belief that this matter should stand down because it would be a futile exercise for members to espouse their views, only to find there are no responses coming from the Ministers’ side. Really, it does not bode well for this House or democracy. We wish, hon Chief Whip, you had a way of acquitting yourself because promises were made that Ministers would come. In the past, I have seen a tendency for Ministers to excuse themselves after certain items. I think that should also be taken into cognisance. Thank you very much.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Chairperson, the AIC is also disappointed that Cabinet Ministers do not attend these sessions. We have long been talking about this. It is time that the issue be corrected. It is not one of the issues that we agreed upon that I refer to. Please correct the issue at hand. Thank you very much.


Members of Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Khawula!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We are Members of Parliament, colleagues. One of the duties we carry is to put forward these matters that are a concern to the constituency that we serve. Whether people are here or not, we cannot decide that, because the Cabinet is not here or six of them – according to our Rules – are not here ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!


[Interjections.] ... yes, indeed, we need responses.

An HON MEMBER: Your party has failed!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The hon member from the DA, can we please listen to each other? I allowed all of you to express your views. Can we listen to the Chief Whip? He is expressing ... hon Khawula! If there is a need for parties to caucus among themselves on what decision they take from now on, I will allow them that space, but let’s allow all of the Chief Whips to express their parties’ views on this matter.


have prepared statements, and we will make those statements in this House. Indeed, it is very disappointing that, except for two Deputy Ministers, no Cabinet members are here. [Interjections.] That, indeed, is something that we want to put on record. It is something that we will take through the relevant

structures so that this is, again, as we have promised, corrected – once and for all. [Interjections.]

The issue I responded to was whether we should remove this item from the agenda. My view is that it cannot be correct. We are a Parliament and, as Parliament, we must do what is expected of us. One of those things we are expected to do is to make statements here. Thank you very much.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I want to address you in terms of Rule 123(c), if I may. The only way that this can be removed from the Order Paper is through the unanimous concurrence of all parties in the House because it is an agreed upon Order of Business that was programmed by consensus by the National Assembly Programming Committee. We would not accede to such a motion, so I think the argument becomes moot.

I want to agree with the Chief Whip. He is absolutely right. We are here to do the people’s business. We are here to perform our function. It is the executive that is not here. I think it would be a terrible precedent for

this Parliament that we put our business and the people’s business on hold because the executive isn’t here to do their job. When they again don’t want to do it or again don’t want to answer to members’ statements, they will just stay away from the House. So, I don’t think we should set that precedent. I think we should read our members’ statements. I think the two Deputy Ministers, and we can forgive them – they will obviously do their best, but I don’t think that the people’s business should be sacrificed because the executive doesn’t take it seriously. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have allowed all parties ... hon Sonti, for this one, I am not going to recognise you. [Interjections.] Order! I would still like to make a ruling because I was asking the Chief Whips of parties to express themselves on this matter.

Ms N P SONTI: Chair, on a point of order ...


Mna ndinephupha. Kweli phupha ndiboniswa le mo yenzeka kweza zitulo zingapheshaya isenzeka kunyaka wama-2019. Lithi eli phupha lam, ngowama-2019 kuza kube kusenzeka le nto. Bonke abaPhathiswa ebekufanele ukuba bakhona kwaye baphendula imibuzo apha asibaboni. Liphupha lodwa eliya kwaye liyabonisa ukuba ngowama-2019 kuza kube kunje kwela cala. Ewe.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, order! That is not a point of order. Hon members! Order, hon members! I allowed the parties that wished to express themselves on this matter to do so.

They have expressed their disappointment and rage at the way the state of affairs is today in this House. They have requested that that be recorded. I am sure our Hansard records will do so. However, the programme had been agreed upon in the National Assembly Programming Committee yesterday. Some members are proposing that the matter stand down, and there are two parties asking that we proceed. Clearly, there is no consensus. I will therefore advise that we proceed. The two Deputy

Ministers will respond to those statements they are able to respond to. Those statements that are not responded to would have been recorded as issues coming from various constituencies.




(Member’s Statement)

Ms R C ADAMS: Chairperson, the ANC condemns the incident where a man under the influence of alcohol crashed his microbus while transporting pupils to school last Monday. It is reported that the driver lost control of the kombi, collided and drove into a tree at the intersection of Yield Road and Thulare Street in Meadowlands, Soweto. At least 13 children, aged 7-year olds were seriously injured and taken to the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital. The driver is due to appear at the Meadowlands Magistrate’s Court facing charges of drunken driving as well as for reckless and negligent driving.

Motorists must take responsibility and avoid drinking and driving. Road fatalities are a major contribution to unnatural deaths in our country. We all call upon law enforcement agencies to ensure that they inspect transport vehicles for learners in every province.
However, we expect parents to play their role to monitor the behavior of the drivers as well. I thank you.


(Member’s Statements)

Mr T J BRAUTESETH (DA): Chairperson, last year, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, highlighted the looming social grants crisis that culminated in Minister Bathabile Dlamini being dragged before the Constitutional Court. The court demanded that she account for the mess that she and her minions had deliberately created in the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa.

Six months later, Sassa is not closer to doing what the court ordered and the grants situation is not clearer. This is hardly surprising as the Minister, according to

her own spokesperson, cannot open her own emails. What is more, the portfolio committee has only met once this term and so, Scopa stepped into the bridge again. The SA Social Security Agency was twice summoned to answer for their actions. Minister Dlamini dodged both meetings, no doubt to avoid further fumbling before a national Tv audience. Or maybe she was concerned about being exposed. She told hon Lindy Wilson one thing in her reply to her written question and she told us something completely different in the committee meeting. So, who is telling the truth?

Now, the Minister has run to the Speaker begging and pleading for protection from Scopa oversight. We have news for you Minister in your empty seats. Your ducking and diving will not get you off the hook. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts is mandated by the National Assembly Rules to do our job to make you do your job.
Live with it, or even better resign. “Siyabangena!” [Feel our presence]. [Applause.]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr Z R XALISA: Chairperson, education must train people in accordance with their opportunities in life and according to the sphere in which they live. These are the infamous words of Hendrik Verwoerd speaking about Bantu education. Looking at Radisaka Primary School in Limpopo, you will think these are words by which this government lives by. Radisaka Primary School is a farm school where learners are children of the poor farm workers.

It is a school where there are two teachers for five grades, where learners are taught in mobile classrooms, where learners and teachers share two pit toilets, where the principal has to teach two grades while still doing the job of a principal and where during rainy seasons learners can’t access the school because of bad road conditions. How can one expect a child of a farm worker to become a scientist, an inventor or anything they dream of when the education they receive actively works against them?

Because of the education these children receive, it is very likely that they also will become farm workers. How are we meant to end poverty, unemployment and inequality when the education ensures that for most black children the education that they get will never allow them to compete with a white child? This government continues to fail our children. It is therefore our duty as the current generation of economic freedom fighters to ensure that when we take government the black child is not disadvantaged to a white child and their future is not limited to that of their parents. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Ms S P TSOLELI(ANC): Chairperson, the ANC believes that providing sanitary towels and other basic toiletries to learners from disadvantaged schools is about children’s basic right to dignity. In line with the ANC policy, various provincial governments have committed themselves to this initiative targeting children from no-fee or disadvantaged schools. During the National Consultative

Indaba on Sanitary Dignity for Indigent Girls and Women held in Tshwane, Gauteng provincial government announced that they will be providing more than one million dignity packs to female learners in the province by 2019.

The Department of Social Development is tasked with the responsibility of leading this initiative in collaboration with the social cluster departments.
Research indicates that the provision of dignity packs has yielded positive results by keeping girl learners in school. This initiative is in line with the National Development Plan to improve quality of life, reduce hunger and poverty amongst the vulnerable citizens through accelerated social transformation. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Prof C T MSIMANG (IFP): Chairperson, the IFP commends the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education on its decision

to conduct a future oversight visit at the University of Zululand. The University of Zululand, Unizulu
, is currently under siege with the latest charges of corruption and maladministration surfacing again on Tuesday in an article in The Citizen newspaper.

The University of Zululand is a tertiary institution in dire need of immediate intervention by the department and by this Parliament. There are allegations of marks rigging with one official declaring that this was, and I quote, “Fraud at its best.” Lecturers are being involved in degrees for sale with allegations that over 4 000 have already been sold over a 20-year period, tender manipulation and irregular expenditure.

Additionally, Unizulu is currently embroiled in offering to pay inflated prices on property in respect of students’ accommodation. Let us not even mention the Vice-Chancellor, Xoliswa Mtose, who owns a R5 million
home with 180 degree sea view and live swimming pool when the university is in dire financial strain. I thank you. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Prof N M KHUBISA(NFP): House Chairperson, the NFP notes of the 2,5 swing in the gross domestic product, GDP, growth announced earlier this week and we rejoice with the rest of the country and the fact that we are now out of the jaws of the technical recession. We also note that the two primary drivers of the economic turnaround are the mining and agricultural sectors.

The performance of the agricultural sector in the wake of the devastating drought in 2015 and 2016, is nothing short of a miracle. But we should not be complacent now and think that the after effects of drought are over. We are far from it. Parts of South Africa are now in the grip of what is termed green droughtLimited rainfall has cost new but insubstantial plant growth in the parish drought-stricken uMkhanyakude District in Northern KwaZulu-Natal which holds a great risk for subservient agriculture in these large areas which is the only food security the people have.

This green drought affects an estimated 13 700 households and more than 6 000 to 7 000 people directly in this district. A collapse of subsistent agriculture in our rural areas could have severe social and economic repercussions triggering accelerated urbanisation, increased level of rural poverty and stagnated rural economic growth. Moreover, subsistence farming holds together the social fabric of the rural population. Thank you. [Time expired.]


(Member’s statement)

Ms J J DUBE(ANC): Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the intervention by the national government in providing emergency disaster relief funds of almost R75 million to the Western Cape provinceThis follows the analysis conducted by the interministerial task team, which concluded that continual risk reduction measures be introduced in provinces to mitigate the impact of water shortage. Of this amount, R40 million will be allocated

towards livestock feed to be used by the Western Cape Department of Agriculture in light of the drought situation and the fires experienced recently in the province.

As part of project management and monitoring, the national and provincial disaster management centers will monitor projects. The Western Cape province, and Cape Town in particular, is currently experiencing one of the worst droughts in a century. Dam level storage capacity in the Western Cape is at about 33,3% and about 18% of it is portable. Residents are urged to ensure that they use the allocated water supply per person responsibly. Thank you, Chair.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr M WATERS (DA): Deputy Speaker, the DA welcomes the announcement that Bell Pottinger has been booted out of the Public Relations Communications Association. This follows a complaint by the DA that it had exploited

racial tensions in our country for the benefit of the Gupta family and Duduzane Zuma, President Jacob Zuma’s son. Now that this has happened, the DA intends launching a battle for the release, in full, of the documents detailing the true nature of the contract Bell Pottinger entered into with the Gupta family and Duduzane Zuma.

It is quite interesting that the ANC has chosen to remain largely silent on this matter. Is it because it was the real client of Bell Pottinger - and not Oakbay Investments? The documents, as we have them, clearly point to this.

Much has been made of Bell Pottinger having Oakbay Investments as a client. However, nowhere in the mandate that Duduzane Zuma gave Bell Pottinger are the words “Oakbay Investments” ever mentioned. The words, “South Africa”, “the people”, “the country”, “the ANC”, “President Zuma”, “political messaging”, and “the future of our country” are mentioned. This points towards the ANC and President Zuma - and not Oakbay Investments - being the protagonists of Bell Pottinger’s public relations.

Did the Guptas pay for Bell Pottinger to clean up the image of the ANC and its president? We would advise the ANC to come clean now. The truth will come out, sooner or later, and the DA will make sure of this. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Sekela Somlomo, ndikuvile usithi UDM. Ndiyacinga ukuba ubuphazama kuba alikafiki ithuba lethu. Okanye uyasithanda?

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Andinalo uthando lokudlala mna. [Kwahlekwa.]

Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Andidlali, ndithetha inyaniso emsulwa, uphazamele kuthi ngoko ke kufuneka ndikulungisile.


Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ubuthe UDM, ndiyakuqonda ukuba uyasithanda kwaye ungabinangxaki ngoba nathi siyakuthanda.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are recorrecting. The list I was left with should not have been used, according to the people listening here. So, we now call the ACDP.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr S N SWART (ACDP): Deputy Speaker, it is scandalous that, in this day and age, we have such a high level of human trafficking across the world. The ACDP therefore welcomes last week’s North Gauteng High Court ruling that upheld a previous, landmark, 2014 judgment that sent a wealthy Mpumalanga timber tycoon for eight life terms, after a conviction on multiple charges of rape, human trafficking and sexual slavery. This landmark sentence was the harshest sentence ever handed down for human trafficking in South Africa and marked the culmination of a two-year long trial highlighting the sordid side of cross-border human trafficking of underage Mozambican nationals for sexual exploitation.

Giving evidence in the 2014 trial, five young girls testified that they had been trafficked from Mozambique to South Africa under false pretences. They were between
10 and 16 years of age and were eventually rescued after the SAPS found them, half starved and living in appalling conditions. Their testimonies revealed shocking details of the sexual and other abuses they suffered.

We commend Adv Erwee of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, for a relentless fight for justice for these young girl victims. We also commend the collaborative efforts between the NPA, the SAPS, Social Development and Justice, the Attorney-General in Mozambique and the provincial anti-trafficking task team. Let us mark one for the good guys.

Deputy Minister Chohan will recall that when she was part of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, we drafted the interim legislation which formed the basis for this conviction. I thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms N NDONGENI (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC commits itself to using every instrument and all measure available at its disposal to practically support and enhance the programme of the development of black industrialists as a catalyst for the development of township and rural economies and job creation for the people. Therefore, the launch of a R50 million black industrialist firm, Maneli Pets Food, located in Edenvale, Gauteng, gives credence to our drive to produce more black industrialists.

The company received funding worth R2,6 million from the Industrial Development Corporation, as well as an approved grant of R12,5 million from the Department of Trade and Industry’s Black Industrial Scheme. An equity contribution of R8 million from the owner has contributed to the project.

Maneli Pets is a new company that began operating from June 2017 and specialises in manufacturing premium,

quality foods and treats for the global pet market. So far, it has created 42 job opportunities since commencing production. It intends creating 80 direct jobs during the next five years. The company manufactures high-protein pet foods with raw materials sourced locally, from Limpopo, the Northern Cape and Eastern Cape. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr K J MILEHAM (DA): Deputy Speaker, at a council meeting held on 30 August this year, the O R Tambo District Municipality in the Eastern Cape wrote off R3,8 billion. Let me repeat that. They wrote off R3,8 billion - almost enough to bail out SAA – in unauthorised, irregular and fruitless and wasteful expenditure. [Interjections.] It was incurred under three different mayors over the period from 2012 to 2016.

One of those mayors now sits in this very House, the oh- so-honourable Capa, who chairs the Portfolio Committee on

Social Development – no surprise there. [Interjections.] Incidentally, she was also implicated in a scheme to purchase farms using municipal funds in a completely different province. [Interjections.]

No attempt has been made to recover the R3,8 billion that was written off, as is required by section 32 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. Nor has anyone been held responsible. In fact, it appears that no investigation has been done, and the write-off is simply to clear the books.

It is ironic that, in the year the ANC has declared the Year of O R Tambo, a year in which the stalwart’s selfless struggle is celebrated, the municipality bearing his name has to endure such shameful behaviour that robs all of our people of service delivery. The DA will not allow the looting of state coffers to continue. These individuals must be held accountable.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr S P MHLONGO (EFF): Deputy Speaker, the EFF is alarmed by the proliferation of criminality disguised as development perpetrated by property developers here, in the city of Cape Town. As we speak, hundreds of residents in Summerville, Kuils River, stand at risk of having their properties attached by unscrupulous developers, called Nation Housing and Propel.

Summerville is made up mainly of young black and Coloured professionals, who bought their houses under the pretext that Summerville was a security complex. They then were forced before buying their properties to sign up to a homeowners’ association and pay monthly fees to that association for maintenance, security, mowing of lawns, and the general upkeep of the estate.

It then emerged that the homeowners’ association was not authorised to prevent anyone from entering Summerville because the roads still belonged to the City of Cape Town. By law, no one could be prevented from entering the estate. The gates were then taken down and security removed. House robberies then increased. All this time,

Propel continued charging residents rates. When residents refused to pay, they had their assets attached.

As we speak, hundreds of summonses have been served on residents to pay up figures amounting to over R200 000, in some instances. These racist developers are doing everything in their power to throw black people out onto the streets. We call on the Minister of Human Settlements to intervene, in this regard. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms L C THEKO (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC condemns the incident in which a Wesselsbron farmer in the west of the Free State was raided for contravening section 43 of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, which prohibits work by children. We are very disappointed that there are still farmers who are complicit in farm slavery and human trafficking.

About 27 people were taken by officials from plastic shelters that were allegedly set up by a farmer who had been working as a broker and recruiting people to come to the farming town with the promise of a job. The farmer is said to have sourced many of the people that were used as farm labourers from the North West, including elderly people aged between 61 and 80. It is believed that some of the young girls were also used as sex slaves by some of the farmers from the area.

We call upon the relevant officials to ensure that cases of child labour and trafficking are opened against the farmer and to ensure that all farmers who have abused children and elderly people are arrested. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr T M NKONZO (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC encourages the initiatives that seek to provide job placements and internships for the youth so that they may gain work experience. We therefore commend the joint initiative

between the ANC-led government in the Eastern Cape, the private sector and the nongovernment organisations to send 96 Eastern Cape youth to take on jobs on cruise ships around the world.

The youth were selected after completing specialised training in basic marine skills over the last two months. They will join MSC Cruises vessels in different parts of the globe. These young people are being given this opportunity to actually work on cruise liners to gain experience but to also be afforded the opportunity to experience different cultures, internationally.

This initiative follows on the heels of the launch of the Eastern Cape Maritime Youth Development programme by the ANC-led Eastern Cape provincial government at the port of East London, a few weeks ago. This initiative should encourage and empower young people to grow further in this field and to eventually become captains of ships and engineers and port officials. I thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr T S MPANZA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the clean audits that were achieved ad reported by 22 provincial departments of the Gauteng province and its entities, in the 2016-17 financial year. In the last three years, the province has moved from 56% to 65% clean audits, with all other departments and entities achieving unqualified audits.

The ANC also commends the Gauteng provincial government’s continual steady progress in improving financial management, eliminating wasteful expenditure, and ensuring that public funds are used to deliver services to the citizens. The ANC is convinced that the Gauteng provincial government is on track in terms of pursuing its goal of achieving 100% clean audits. I thank you.



(Minister’s Response)


firstly, I think it beholds us to convey our condolences to the families of the 13 children killed in the accident caused by a driver while allegedly under the influence of alcohol in Soweto. I think all of us would agree that road fatalities are particularly painful because they are avoidable. It is particularly more poignant when the victims are children.

On the issue of human trafficking raised by the member from the ACDP, I want to suggest to the member that, in fact, one of the reasons we passed the legislation that he eloquently referred to was because this is a growing problem not just in South Africa, but throughout the world. Indeed, it is now termed modern slavery.

The issue of rape which is a concomitant criminal act that gets perpetrated, and the issue of forced labour are all related to the kind of syndicated movement and trafficking of persons, the victims of whom are very often women and most often young children. I do not think anybody would disagree and that there is any doubt that

more should be done to protect and secure our borders to prevent this modern slavery.

However, when government tried to do so by passing a piece of legislation called the Border Management Act in this Parliament, the very people who stood up here and claimed to be very concerned about women and children’s rights and about security, were the ones who filibusted and walked out of the House. That resulted in a terrible delay in passing that Bill which is very urgently needed for the protection of women and children.

The hon Waters raises this issue when he speaks about this particular item on our agenda and speaks about the people’s business. Well, when it comes to the people’s business, I dare say, the people will judge you very harshly for what you have done on the Border Management Bill. [Interjections.]




(Minister’s Response)


Speaker, mine is very short because the Deputy Minister has already said what I would have said about the accident of the kids. However, mine will be on education.

Earlier on when we deliberated, we talked about education and the EFF also congratulated their leader. So, education is really a very good thing. [Interjections.] We urge and ask everyone to take up his/her studies and go forward with education. I thank you Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are screaming as the member is speaking, making it difficult for others to listen. You are once more creating a problem for yourselves. That concludes ministerial responses.


Ms S P TSOLELI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates prioritisation of measures to strengthen safety efforts in the mining sector through the provision of economic and social infrastructure.

I thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House -

notes that the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation has today, again failed to appear before this House to answer Oral Questions in terms of the National Assembly Rule 138;

also notes that this is the Minister’s first and only opportunity this year to appear before the people’s representatives to answer questions and be held accountable as the Constitution requires;

further notes that the Minister missed both the Oral Question sessions in 2016 as well;

therefore censures the Minister for cocking a snook at Parliament and showing her complete disregard for the Constitution;

furthermore reprimands the Minister by referring the matter to the Ethics Committee to take action against her chronic absenteeism;

notes that South Africa needs this Minister and Ministers like the Deputy Minister of Home of Home Affairs like we need a hole in the head.

IsiZulu: 20:47:

Nks S M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, siyi-EFF sithi le Ndlu ngokulandelayo ibheke udaba lwemitholampilo emakhaya, ixoxe ngayo ngoba laphaya eMthandeni kwaMaphumulo kunomtholampilo obizwa ngokuthi Mthandeni Clinic. Loya mtholampilo, ngifisa sengathi uDlomo uyakuzwa lokhu, uphakela izigodi ezinhlanu eMaqadini, kwaDakadaka, Ezagqyeni, kaNyusa eWome, naseSnamfini. Ogogo bafika ekuseni ukuzohlola ushukela kanjalo nabagulayo bafika ngamabhasi, angazi ukuthi uma bengenayo imali yokugibela abakwazi ukuya emtholampilo kodwa bahlala usuku lonke akukho ngisho odokotela nonesi nabo abekho.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order members, please stop screaming.


Nks S M KHAWULA: Eyi Nkosi yami, angazi ukuthi laba bantu nabathathaphi! Akukho dokotela laphayana babamba ulayini owodwa belambile futhi uma ngabe eshiywe yibhasi akakwazi ukuya esibhedlela. Sicela ukuthi umhlonishwa uDlomo angenelele laphayana ngoba leya ndaba iyabalimaza abantu kakhulu. Ngiyabonga.

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: That was not a motion.

Ms S M KHAWULA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order hon member?


Nks S M KHAWULA: Inkinga ya lo mnumzane ikuphi? Unezibhedlela yini yena ngakubo? Musa ukuganga wena, ukhulele emakhaya. Uyaphapha wena mhlonishwa ndini!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw that. Hon Khawula, withdraw that.


Nks S M KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa, ukuphapha kusho ukuthi njengoba egxuma njena.

USEKELA SIHLALO: Lungu elihloniphekile, ngicela uhoxise.


Nks S M





Qha. Hoxisa lawo magama, mama.

Nks S M





Lokho okushilo.

Nks S M


Ukuphapha yile nto ayenzayo yokugxumela

abantu baseMthandeni kwaMaphumulo behlukumezeka.

USEKELA SIHLALO: Mhlonishwa uKhawula, uma ungafuni ukuhoxisa, ngicela uphume uye emnyango.

Nks S M KHAWULA: Ngiyoyenzani manje emnyango? Waze wadlala ngami.

USEKELA SIHLALO: Uzobona khona ukuthi wenza njani.

Nks S M KHAWULA: Hhayibo! Musa ukudlala ngami. [Uhleko.]

USEKELA SIHLALO: Lunga elihloniphekile umosha isikhathi.

Nks S M KHAWULA: Sisuka nawe eThekwini manje usuthi ngime emnyango. Wena yini indaba yakho wena?

USEKELA SIHLALO: Kahleni bo! Lungu elihloniphekile ... [Ubuwelewele.]

Nks S M KHAWULA: Uyazi ukuthi sisukaphi nawe, asisuki nawe eThekwini? Manje usuzongixosha lana. [Uhleko.] We! Uyaganga wena isikhathi esiningi.

USEKELA SIHLALO: Mhlonishwa, ngicela uhoxise lawo magama wakho.

Nks S M KHAWULA: Kulungile, ngiyaxolisa kodwa ungakujwayeli kakhulu ukuphapha, ubophapha kancane.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please withdraw unconditionally ...


... musa ukuyenza leyo nto.

Nks S M KHAWULA: Kulungile, ngiyahoxisa kodwa ugxuma kakhulu yena, uyagxuma. [Uhleko.]

USEKELA SIHLALO: Mhlonishwa uKhawula ngicela ukuthi le ndaba yakho sizobuye siyixoxe, ayiphelelanga lana, sizoyilandela.

Mr T S MPANZA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates countering the rise of and prevalence of chronic diseases such as hypertension and diabetes.

I thank you.


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House debates the persistent and deliberate absenteeism of members of the executive from sittings of this House, which no doubt will increase in the ANC’s elective conference in December, and what urgent measures should be taken to ensure that Members of the Parliament are able to execute their constitutional obligations of holding the executive to account.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, on behalf ...

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it is not allowed to do that in the House. What you are doing is incorrect. It is not correct to scream and howl at someone speaking. It is not correct. If that is done to anyone of your members, you will hit the roof. We will not allow it.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: It is all they do here. Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

That the House deliberates on the roles, responsibility and accountability of public

representatives to the electorate, with specific attention to Members of Parliament, including attendance to respond to questions. [Interjections.]

Ms N NDONGENI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates accelerating and strengthening government interventions to mitigate the impact of the drought on economic development and on job creation.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House, in the context of the growing numbers of homeless South Africans and the requirement to fulfil the dictates of section 26(1) of the Constitution, debates the provision of interim shelters for homeless people consistent with the right of access to adequate housing.


Sekela Somlomo, kuza kufuneka undikhusele phaya kuMadiba kuba ubane esithi ndilisela. Andiyazi nokuba ndibe into kabani kusini na?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House, in light of an ANC councillor in Nkomazi Municipality, shooting a student at Mpumelelo School for protesting for better sanitation, again debates the abuse against women and children and a person’s constitutional right to peacefully demonstrate.

Ms N P SONTI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

That the House, in light of Bafana Bafana’s failure to qualify for the World Cup in Russia next year,

despite at one stage being in a position to do so, debates the firing of Shakes Mashaba.

Ms R C ADAMS: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates mitigation strategies to counter the current avian influenza outbreak, which is threatening the existence of the South African poultry industry as well as the jobs in the sector. I thank you.

Ms H V NYAMBI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates accelerating the development of languages and the promotion of multilingualism in South Africa.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the AIC:

That the House debates the practice of engaging reckless granting, and the burden that consumers endure from reckless financial institutions, resulting in the damage that reckless lending has on our economy, as it overburdens the poor and affects the rate of our consumer spending in the country.

Ms L C THEKO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates strengthening measures to address the rapid increase in gangster-related killings and the spreading of a gangster culture in black communities.

Mr R W T CHANCE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the Department of Small Business Development’s inability to fulfil its mandate and its continued relevance as a vehicle for developing and implementing policies that create jobs.

Mr M L D NTOMBELA(ANC): Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates ways to deal with North Korea’s continued violation of the United Nations’ decision on nuclear testing and ballistic-missile launches that may destabilise world peace.

The House adjourned at 20:57.