Hansard: NA:Questions for Oral Reply Deputy President
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 21 Aug 2013
Summary
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Minutes
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WEDNESDAY, 21 AUGUST 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_______________
The House met at 14:05.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
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START OF THE DAY
NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE AFTER QUESTIONS
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to announce that by agreement among parties, notices of motion and motion without notice will be taken after Questions.
As members are aware, Parliament hosted the 2013 Women's Parliament this morning - an important event in our annual calendar. Participants from that assembly are now present in the public gallery to observe these proceedings. On behalf of the House and Presiding Officers I would like to extend a word of welcome to our guests today. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER
CENTENARY OF WORKING TOGETHER TOWARDS SUSTAINABLE WOMEN EMPOWERMENT AND GENDER EQUALITY
(Debate on National Women's Day)
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, I was saying to the chairperson and an hon colleague that today women are out of order; they are not supposed to participate. However, he told me that today they are in order; they are allowed; it is their month. [Applause.] Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, this year, 2013, South Africa commemorates the centenary of 100 years of the heroic anti-pass march led by Charlotte Maxeke in 1913. The theme of Women's Month therefore is "A centenary of working together towards sustainable women empowerment and gender equality".
On 9 August 1956, a heroic march to the Union Buildings was organised and led by women struggle stalwarts, including Lilian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph and Rahima Moosa, as well as the hon member Sophia de Bruyn, the only one who is still with us today. They led 20 000 women to the Union Buildings to protest against the pass laws. To celebrate the restoration of the identity and dignity of the people of South Africa, especially women, we witnessed the President dedicating and naming the smart ID machines after struggle stalwarts Lilian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph, Rahima Moosa and Sophia de Bruyn.
As we reflect on the achievements attained to date, let us remember what drove the women of 1913 and 1956 to form a united front against the injustices of that day. Though the challenges faced by women may be different today from those of 100 years ago, the struggle for women empowerment and gender equality continues. The injustices of today require both men and women to work together to confront the challenges facing us and to work for the total emancipation and empowerment of women.
As a country and government, we have registered significant progress in the promotion of gender equality and the empowerment of women. There is a list of legislation - which I will not mention here - to promote women empowerment and uphold gender equality. Our Constitution is one of the most progressive Constitutions and has a Bill of Rights that protects and promotes the rights of women. All the programmes and legislation introduced since 1994 have gone a long way and drastically improved the position and conditions of women in our country.
We not only have high levels of representation in Parliament, at 44%, but we have delivered 95% universal access to water. We have delivered 85% access to electricity, including in our rural areas. We have ensured that the social security system, which benefits mostly single women, children and the elderly - most of whom are also women - is universal and is increased every month to ensure that we fight poverty for the most vulnerable in our society. We have ensured that those who are still on the margins of society are prioritised, their rights are protected and also that we have laws in place to protect them. Despite all these significant strides, we have to mention that women still bear a disproportionate burden of the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment.
The goal and objective, therefore, is to achieve the constitutional milestone of creating a society based on the principles of equality, justice, human dignity and nonsexism. An achievement to this effect is the establishment of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities by the democratic government of South Africa. The mandate of this department is to co-ordinate, monitor and facilitate the realisation of the rights of women, children and people with disabilities, working with other departments and civil society.
This year, we also mark the centenary of the 1913 Natives Land Act. The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform has committed to ensuring that rural women are prioritised as beneficiaries of the land reform programme to redress the imbalances created by the Natives Land Act of 1913. Women and children were the greatest victims of that horrific Act. Women continue to be marginalised and discriminated against in terms of economic opportunities, the labour market, credit and finance. In addition, a life of abuse, discrimination and violation of their human rights remains the harsh reality for the majority of women in our country.
We continue to work in partnership with government departments and state-owned enterprises, including the Department of Trade and Industry, Department of Economic Development, the Industrial Development Corporation, the Independent Development Trust and the Small Enterprise Development Agency, to facilitate opportunities for women economic empowerment in rural, peri-urban and informal settlements to participate in the economy.
We also have ensured that we work with all government departments to ensure that the rights of women, children and people with disabilities are mainstreamed in all our departments. I also want to mention that this month - which is Women's Month - the Department of Human Settlements will issue 57 houses to rural women in the Eastern Cape to commemorate and celebrate the 57th year of the 1956 Women's March. [Applause.]
With regard to the Traditional Courts Bill, we will continue to work with rural women and other stakeholders to ensure that the provisions of the Bill are consistent with our Constitution and protect the rights of women. Preliminary consultations were conducted and co-ordinated with women, especially rural women, to ensure their maximum participation on deliberations on the Bill. We are confident that, going forward, the inputs and submissions made by the women of South Africa will be considered. As a department, our interest is to ensure that this Bill does not reverse the gains that women have made towards women empowerment and gender equality.
The National Council Against Gender-Based Violence, which is driving the 365-day campaign to fight gender-based violence, will be launching the Vikela Mzansi campaign this month – Women's Month. The council is made up of a number of government departments, including the SA Police Service, Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, Department of Health, National Prosecuting Authority, Department of Basic Education, Department of Social Development and other departments, as well as civil society and private-sector organisations. They will work together to fight the scourge of violence and abuse against women, children and people with disabilities. Among many other tasks, this will include ensuring that effective and efficient programmes are provided to all victims of gender-based violence, as well as promoting awareness and educational campaigns in our communities.
We also welcome the re-establishment of the Sexual Offences Courts by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units by SAPS, as well as the training of police and forensic social workers. We believe that these are milestones in the fight against the scourge of violence and abuse of women and children.
South Africa has made commitments through the Constitution, various pieces of legislation and international conventions to protect, promote and advance the rights of women. We all have a duty and obligation to honour these commitments. I therefore call on all South Africans to promote and protect the rights of women, children and people with disabilities and fight this scourge that has devastated our country. Thank you very much. Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!] [Applause.]
Mrs D ROBINSON
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The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs D ROBINSON: Deputy Speaker and Members of Parliament, this month we commemorate the courage of the more than 20 000 women who staged a march on 09 August 1956, protesting against the legislation that required black people to carry a pass during apartheid. These women broke the stereotype of women being seen as inept, uninvolved, unaware and subservient. Their courage and tenacity showed that, throughout the ages, women have played a critical role in the progression of societies. They are positive role models for all South Africans. They fought for their beliefs, even though they faced major obstacles, and I pay tribute to the hon Sophia de Bruyn, our colleague.
It is 2013 and we are considered a democratic country. Yet, regardless of the courage and action of women over the years, women are still not sufficiently empowered in our society. As a nation, we continue to face many challenges. Women are the most adversely affected and this needs to change. In an ideal society, we should all feel respected and empowered. In fact, this is what our Constitution provides for: equal rights, equal opportunities and all living in unity and with dignity. However, we do not live in an ideal society. Somehow, we have come not to respect the dignity of every South African. I am not only referring to women. Some of us are disrespected and have our rights violated on the basis of race, class, language, sexual orientation and – yes – gender.
Let us talk about gender issues. It is indeed tragic that the violation of women's rights has become so deeply entrenched in our society. An example of this is the brutal rape and murder of Duduzile Zozo, a lesbian and a Thokoza resident. The Corrective Rape Task Team, established by the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster in 2011, was meant to conduct a legislative audit of legislation pertaining to hate crimes, yet the task team has been silent thus far. It is estimated that as many as 10 lesbians are raped or gang-raped in South Africa weekly.
Women's rights in communities, courts and police stations are often disregarded. We see this every day. Our newspapers are overflowing with stories of rape and brutal murders. Every kind of physical and sexual abuse imaginable has been thrown at women. Rape, sexual violence and domestic violence plague our nation and have reached crisis levels. A woman in South Africa is raped every 10 minutes. A woman is murdered by her partner every eight hours.
The National Council Against Gender-Based Violence – part of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities – has done very little to visibly deliver on its mandate thus far. Women also face structural economic oppression. They earn less than men. Women are also more likely to be unemployed. The unemployment rate of women is 2,9% higher than the national average of 24,9%. Women are underrepresented in positions of authority. Women and girls are less likely to receive a quality education.
Women are systematically less favoured to succeed in life. This is a great, unresolved and perpetuated injustice in our land. Government has failed to address this gender inequality. It is no good pushing for equal representation of men and women in Parliament and ask those very same Members of Parliament to support a Traditional Courts Bill that disempowers rural women. It is no good celebrating our country's struggle for women's rights while we tolerate those among us who use sexism as a substitute for parliamentary debate. It is no good celebrating Women's Day with a sumptuous dinner at the Mount Nelson, while women continue to live in poverty, cut off from opportunity. This needs to change. We can pay tribute to our female struggle heroines of 1956 by giving women and girls equal opportunities, but everyone has a role to play - from government to the private sector, communities and our very own families.
The solution for empowering women is the same as it is for everyone else: more opportunities. We need to grow our economy by creating jobs for women and men. We need to improve educational opportunities for our youth. One way would be to fix the National Student Financial Aid Scheme to give more university funding for young women and young men. We also need to fix the justice system so that it actually protects victims of injustice and gender violence and does not impose secondary discrimination and victimisation.
We need to build our country so that everyone has a chance to succeed. Women, just like everybody else, need jobs, education, health care, housing and a government that works. By empowering women, we empower our nation. Enkosi kakhulu. [I thank you.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the noise level is too high. I appeal to all of you that if you are really desperate to talk, you can take a break.
Ms C K K MOSIMANE
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Mrs D ROBINSON
Ms C K K MOSIMANE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, again, I stand on this podium with joy and pride. Last year, we congratulated Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma on her election as the Chairperson of the African Union Commission. This year, on behalf of Cope, I would like to congratulate Mrs Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, who was sworn in on Monday as the United Nations Under-Secretary for Women. [Applause.] To echo her words, her task is indeed not easy. Billions of women globally are looking up to her to change their lives.
Women's rights are recognised as human rights. These rights are violated daily. Older women are victims of rape by their children and children's friends. It is a pity that after we have attained our freedom, women are still not free yet. Yes, progress in empowering women has been made in various fields, but women in South Africa are still facing daunting challenges. Today, South Africa ranks number four in the world with 45% women parliamentarians. Though men still outnumber women, South Africa is the major contributor to the 19% of women parliamentarians in sub-Saharan Africa.
Women are still subjected to sexist practices at home and work. There are few women who are in top executive positions in companies. The majority of women in South Africa are still to realise the freedom that was fought for by pioneers like Charlotte Maxeke. Women in rural areas are still stuck in a destructive cycle of poverty. Land ownership still favours men over women. As a result, a large portion of land is still owned by men. These women lack access to their basic human rights and are responsible for heavier household burdens. Gathering and transporting water falls on women and girls, a task that can take many hours each day in drought-prone areas.
Women constitute 46% of the economically active population, but two thirds of African women aged between 15 and 24 are unemployed. Young women who are forced to drop out of school face a bleak future. Teenage pregnancy is wreaking havoc in many poor communities. The field for women is not just bumpy but an uphill battle.
Setswana:
Bomme, kgetsi ya tsie e kgonwa ke go tshwaraganelwa. Ka jalo, ke tshwanelo ya rona go nna ngata e le nngwe go lwantsha botlhokotsebe jo bo tlhorisang bana le basadi. Ke nako ya go tsholetsa thari re e beye mo dihubeng go bontsha tlhoafalo le kutlwelobotlhoko. Mmangwana o tshwara thipa ka fa bogaleng. Ka jalo, a molaetsa wa gompieno e nne: Go lekane, go lekane, e be e nne molodi wa letsatsi lengwe le lengwe. Ke a leboga. [Legofi.]
Mrs C N Z ZIKALALA
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Ms C K K MOSIMANE
Mrs C N Z ZIKALALA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I stand here today, representative not only of the lnkatha Freedom Party but also as a very proud woman of South Africa and I say to you and this House, without any evasion, reservation or mental equivocation whatsoever, that we are failing the women of this country.
Gender equality, although constitutionally enshrined and supported in terms of chapter 9 of our Constitution, remains largely untransformed. This is clear evidence to me of the deep-seated social ills and underlying prejudices towards women that remain in the workplace and in general.
Behind closed doors, we remain, for all intents and purposes, second-rate citizens. This must change because it is not only hurting women but also our country in general. Existing skills shortages in the workplace could be rapidly diminished if gender equality was the norm instead of the exception. Sadly, this is yet to be.
Gender activism in South Africa has always been supported by the lnkatha Freedom Party and in particular, by our leader, Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, who recently said that:
Long before gender activism was born in South Africa, I recognised that women have a vital role in society that cannot be limited to the home and the family. Women were the backbone of our liberation struggle. They are the backbone of political mobilisation and must become the backbone of moral regeneration. Women have an invaluable contribution to make to science, the economy, business, politics, medicine, the arts, industry and every sphere of life.
I have always acted on these convictions. During apartheid, as soon as we had limited legislative powers in KwaZulu, I tackled the Code of Zulu Law and removed provisions that discriminated against women and considered them minors. Thus, for the first time, black women were granted property rights. I also expunged the barbaric provision that gave a husband the right to administer corporal punishment to his wife. Abuse of women is not a cultural thing. It is pure evil.
Prince Buthelezi embodies the forward thinking that must begin to take hold in the minds of all South African men if we are ever to change the current gender landscape in South Africa.
To conclude, the upcoming Gender Equality Bill must also be supported because it will further promote and ensure gender compliance in the workplace and create the necessary enabling environment for all South Africans to work and prosper.
The IFP supports all women in South Africa and will relentlessly continue with its efforts to ensure gender equality. [Applause.]
Mr S Z NTAPANE
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Mrs C N Z ZIKALALA
Mr S Z NTAPANE: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, the annual commemoration of Women's Day obliges one to repeat once again the observations that this day is an opportunity not merely to celebrate the many remarkable women who have made this nation great - although they certainly deserve to be celebrated - nor is it merely the opportunity to sing the praises of the many women who excel in countless positions throughout our society - although they are certainly worthy of such praises. This day must also be dedicated to considering where we as society continue to fail in our constitutional obligation to gender equality.
In the same breath that we salute women who have excelled, we must express our dismay about women who have been oppressed, abused and murdered simply because of their gender. These incidents, such as the high rate of gender-based violence, remind us that our legislative and policy efforts have not yet translated into a society where all men respect and treat women as their equal. What we require is greater public awareness about gender equality, starting with leaders, including politicians, showing unwavering commitment to these principles.
Women in rural areas are particularly vulnerable to poverty and discrimination. Limited access to infrastructure like roads, communication and electricity makes it difficult for them to access information, markets and the services necessary to improve their livelihoods. Therefore, there is more that needs to be done to ensure that women in rural areas are empowered.
However, meaningful and sustainable empowerment of women hinges on our ability to invest in quality education because it is one of important means of empowering women with the knowledge, skills and self-confidence necessary to participate fully in the development processes.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
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Mr S Z NTAPANE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson, I have learned from history that women are on the receiving end whenever there is a crisis or some sort of trouble. For various reasons, women suffer most when, for example, we talk about poverty, when we look at natural disasters or as victims of war. In South Africa at present, there are 150 women raped daily – that is one woman every 10 minutes.
In December this year, we will be celebrating the centenary of the SA Women's Memorial in Bloemfontein.
Afrikaans:
Die vraag is: Waarvoor is die monument opgerig? Dit is opgerig vir die vroue en kinders wie tydens die Anglo-Boereoorlog gesterf het. As 'n mens na die getalle gaan kyk, dan is daar vir elkeen wat op die slagveld dood is, nege vroue en kinders in die konsentrasiekampe en ander plekke dood. Dit is een van die slegste verhoudings in die wêreld.
Hoe lyk die monument? Dit is 'n gedenknaald van 35m hoog en u kan dit gerus gaan besoek. Wat belangrik is, is dat voor die monument is 'n standbeeld van 'n vrou met 'n dooie kind op haar skoot. Dit kom van Emily Hobhouse, wat geskryf het oor wat sy gesien het in die konsentrasiekampe. Daar was wit en swart konsentrasiekampe. Sy sê dat sy geroep was na 'n moeder wat op haar trommeltjie gesit het met haar kind op haar skoot. Sy sê in haar dagboek:
Die moeder het niks gehad om vir die kind te gee nie en hy was duidelik besig om te sterf. Ek het nog by die Britse-kampkommandant 'n bietjie brandewyn laat vra om te kyk of ons nie daarmee die kind kon bybring nie, maar die Brit wou dit nie gee nie. Saam het ons toe in eerbiedige stilte toegekyk hoe die kleintjie sy laaste asem uitblaas.
Die moeder het haar nie verroer of gehuil nie. Dit was haar enigste kind. Met droë oë maar 'n krytwit gesig het sy bewegingloos daar gesit en gekyk, nie na die kind nie maar ver, ver in die afgrond van smart wat anderkant trane lê. 'n Vriendin het agter haar gestaan en gesnik. Sy het niks gedoen nie.
Die hele tragedie van oorlog lê vir my opgesluit in daardie toneel van kinderleiding en van vrouesmart, soos Emily Hobhouse geskryf het. As u by die monument kom, is dit die standbeeld voor u. As u daar kom, moet u daaraan dink want dit is wat uitgebeeld word.
English:
For 80 years this was the only monument in the world that commemorated the suffering of women.
Afrikaans:
As u dalk in Pretoria is en u wil die Voortrekkermonument besoek, wat is die sentrale figuur daar? Dit is weereens 'n vrou. Die argitek het gesê dat sonder vroue was dit nie moontlik wat gebeur het nie, want vroue dra die waardes van 'n volk na buite, en daarsonder kon hy dit nie doen nie. Daarom is dit die sentrale persoon.
English:
Today we commemorate the march of the ANC women to the Union Buildings in 1956. On 4 August 1950, there was also a march to the Union Buildings, which was about those people who were involved in the rebellion. On 22 June 1940 ...
Afrikaans:
... het 9 000 vroue na die Uniegebou gemarsjeer, om te kla oor die Tweede Wêreldoorlog en om vir vrede te gaan vra. Wat my betref is dit ons taak in hierdie Raad om met wetgewing en met toesig te sorg dat vroue in Suid-Afrika nie weer nodig het om na die Uniegebou te marsjeer nie. Terwyl ons hulle herdenk vir die leiding van die verlede, kom ons skep toestande waar dit nie nodig is om weer te marsjeer of om sulke monumente op te rig nie. [Applous.]
Mr M W THRING
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Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 206
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr M W THRING: Hon Deputy Speaker, as we celebrate Women's Month this August, the ACDP wishes to take this opportunity to extend its warm and best wishes to all the women of South Africa. It is well known that in terms of gender, women make up 51% of our population. The ACDP commends the heroines of our country who are the strong threads that keep the fabric of our communities together. We know and understand the sometimes difficult circumstances that many women, particularly those in the rural areas, have to endure as they are often on the receiving end of crime, poverty and the inherent socials ills prevalent in their workplaces and the areas in which they reside.
It is for this reason that the ACDP has worked tirelessly with others, giving input and supporting the passing of the Human Trafficking Bill. The ACDP is pleased that its work in this area has finally paid dividends. The passing of this Bill is a step in the right direction and works towards addressing the abuses that many women face. The ACDP is certainly proud to have been a part of this process.
The ACDP salutes all women who are pillars in our country and who are in many instances the backbone of our communities. All women have the right to safety and security, and the ACDP believes that it is possible to build a country, a society and communities where our women do not feel threatened or unsafe in their own homes.
In this light, the ACDP welcomes the initiative by government to reopen the sexual offences courts and have always said that these courts should not have been closed in the first place. As we build into the 21st century, may we never again speak of the battle of the sexes, but may we speak of the unity, oneness and togetherness of both male and female, while remembering the Biblical injunction: "How can two walk together, unless they agree?" [Applause.]
Ms B N DLULANE
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Mr M W THRING
Mrs B N DLULANE: Deputy Speaker, I am happy that I am speaking after somebody who is seeing what government is doing. Unfortunately, there were women who were on this podium who don't see any laws that are positive for the women of this country. Hon members, in a foreword to the UN Handbook for Legislation on Violence against Women, the Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations observed, and I quote:
Across the world - in rich and poor countries alike - women are being beaten, trafficked, raped and killed. These human rights abuses not only inflict great harm and suffering on individuals, they tear at the fabric of entire societies.
In March this year, 131 countries approved the UN blueprint for combating violence against women and girls, which sets global standards for action to prevent and ultimately end violence against women.
The 2007 strategy and tactics document of the ANC characterises the problem of gender-based violence as one that is, among other things, the consequence of centuries of embedded patriarchy. In this regard, the ANC says, and I quote:
... precisely because patriarchal oppression was embedded in the economic, social, religious, cultural, family and other relations in all communities, its eradication cannot be an assumed consequence of democracy. All manifestations of patriarchy - from the feminisation of poverty, physical and psychological abuse, undermining of self-confidence to open and hidden forms of exclusion from positions of authority and power - need to be eliminated.
On this day we don't need to politicise this issue. This is the day when we must all remember and celebrate. I am saying "celebrate" - we are not not going to have our gala dinner. In this Parliament, whenever we have an event for each and every committee, we do have gala dinners. However, when we invited our veterans and our societies representing everybody in South Africa, they were not there for eating food. Constructive and good papers were being delivered. [Interjections.]
Mrs Robinson disappoints me when she says we were not supposed to have gala dinners while she has been doing gala dinners for five years in this Parliament. She did not condemn them, but yesterday she did because it was a day for women. I feel ashamed. [Interjections.]
Yesterday, at the gala dinner, we heard from the speaker that when she was addressing young women, the questions raised by those young women - if you were not there - were: What are you doing about these laws that were passed? I will mention the laws later. We have passed good laws as a ruling party, together with everybody in this Parliament. However, what we have noticed is that there are good laws, but the problem we all still have is the implementation of those laws.
Between 2009 and today, this Parliament has been calling meetings for all members of society and NGOs to scrutinise these laws, seeing that there are gaps in these laws. That is why, when you arrived, you were not supposed to go to sleep, but to ask ...
IsiXhosa:
... umrhabulo ...
English:
... why are we not implementing all the laws. This morning we had the opportunity to call all relevant departments. They were not just saying that all is well. What is being said in all departments of Parliament, especially in the women's Ministry, in the Multiparty Women's Caucus, is that we are identifying these gaps, together with those people who were invited yesterday.
Even today, the Department of Justice and the Commission for Gender Equality told us what we needed to do. We must try to amend and create laws that have teeth. We all became aware during the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children over the last few years that women were being raped and killed, but this year it was a terrible situation. Our President said that we needed to start at home. We need to know where our husbands, wives or children are at 20:00 at night, because it starts at home. They take the drugs outside our premises. [Applause.] What are we saying about that? Must government assist us to look after our families? Let us assist. We do agree that we all belong to this South African government, but what must we do and what must we say?
I feel very bad because 50% representation is an international requirement. The South African Parliament is a signatory to that. We need 50/50 representation in our parliaments. In some of our committees we have been saying that you can't come to Parliament and want to get that 50/50. You must start with your own political party. Hon Robinson says there is no need for that 50/50 representation. Today, we have about 43% and that very high number is due to this ruling party. Other parties are trying. How dare Mrs Robinson, who was sitting with us every day, come to this podium now and deny that we need that 50/50 representation? It is a shame! [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The National Council against Gender-Based Violence was inaugurated only in December 2012. As I am speaking, the Deputy President has made a call to our male opponents - because this is about gender-based violence. However, if you are saying that Rome was supposed to have been built since December 2012, then I feel sorry for you.
We have passed so many laws through this department. I can mention the Domestic Violence Act. However, we still need other amending laws, because if I, Beauty Nombasa Dlulane, go to court or to the police station to report that ...
IsiXhosa:
... Utata kaMputhumi undibethile kuba bendingafuni ukwenza nokuba yintoni na.
English:
They will tell you, instead of taking the statement, that you ...
IsiXhosa:
... wena ukuzazi ukuba ungumfazi, ubuze kwenza ntoni apha?
English:
They agreed this morning that we needed to put legislation in place to prevent this. We must educate the police at police stations in the areas where we report violence.
As we stand here, we know that 2015 is coming and, as South Africa, we need to go and report in the UN. What have we done to meet the 50/50 target? So, let us strive to get that. We are heading for an election. All the parties that are part of this House must strive for that. Our male comrades or male folk should not put only themselves forward. Even the women in political parties should not only look at their male comrades - they must put female candidates forward. It starts with ourselves – that "pull-down syndrome".
So, as the ANC, we are proud of the laws that we have passed. However, we are not 100% proud because we have seen horrible things: A four-month-old girl was raped; 91-year-old and 84-year-old women are being raped ... [Time expired.]
Mrs I C DITSHETELO
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Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 208
Mrs B N DLULANE
Mrs I C DITSHETELO: Deputy Speaker, August is the most exhausting month to the psyche of a woman living in South Africa! This is the month when the nation pretends to care about issues affecting women. We are flooded with messages of nonviolence against women, hectic advertising and role-playing - just for this month!
We are all conscious of what role women played in our history and in our daily lives. I am sure I speak for many women when I say that what women want is not special days here and there; fake recognition and applause in certain months; or sympathies from male counterparts. What women want is to be treated with dignity like everybody else. We want to be safe in our own homes. We want to own our bodies and not be violated on an hourly basis.
You see, we play the primary role in bringing about human life. We want to know it is safe to continue to give birth to new offspring. We want our little girls in pink to play in the streets carefree, knowing they are safe from their brothers, fathers, neighbours and strangers.
Women want to know that they don't need to double their work efforts just to get the same recognition as men. Women want men to recognise that patriarchy doesn't just hurt women; it hurts men as well. It does not serve any of us. The women and children that get raped daily have brothers, lovers, husbands and fathers who hurt so much over such violations. They end up feeling that they failed their own by not protecting them.
Women don't want men ululating lovely messages on special days. Women want men who will stand for what is right. Women want men to treat them as equal counterparts and value their contribution at home, in school and at work. Women want men who will not wait for the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill to do what is right. Women want people who understand that it is not a favour to be a woman; it is God-given right. We have got the right to live. We have got the right to do whatever we want to do. It is not a favour! [Applause.]
Setswana:
Bagaetsho, ga re le bomme re le rotlhe, re seka ra leka go ipharologanya. Re seka ra letla gore mebala ya rona e se re dire bomme.
English:
We are all women, irrespective of colour; irrespective of where you are from; and irrespective of the comforts you have. You are a woman. You have to feel that that very poor woman is just the same as you. She needs what you have. You have to support her. You have to show that by doing whatever other women ask you to do. People, we are God-given people. [Interjections.]
Setswana:
A re rataneng re le basadi; re tlotlaneng.
English:
Let's start respecting ourselves. [Applause.] Let's start showing people that we live. [Applause.] Let's start saying that this is the time when we have the right to be women. [Applause.]
Mr K S MUBU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 208
Mrs I C DITSHETELO
Mr K S MUBU: Speaker, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, this year marks 57 years since that historic march on the Union Buildings by 20 000 brave women to protest against the pass laws of the 1950s. The year also marks 19 years since the dawn of democracy in this country.
South Africa is Africa's largest economy and is ranked by the World Bank as an upper-middle-income economy. This means that South Africa is one of only four countries on the continent that are described as upper-middle-income economies. The others are Gabon, Botswana and Mauritius. Yet, according to available statistics, women account for only 44% of the labour force in 2011 in this country. In terms of the Gender Inequality Index, South Africa ranked 90th in a list of 148 countries. Maternal mortality in the county affects 300 out of every 100 000 women, despite the fact that South Africa enjoys one of the most advanced medical services available on this continent.
The apartheid system disadvantaged many women, particularly African women – more so than any racial group in this country - in terms of access to jobs and other economic opportunities. For example, labour requirements in the cities and in the mining areas have often drawn men away from the villages and left women to carry out those responsibilities that were supposed to be performed by men. As a result, women have borne many traditionally male responsibilities in the village and at home while their husbands were out working in the cities and in the mines. Women have had to guarantee the day-to-day survival of their families and to carry out financial and legal transactions that otherwise would have been performed by men.
There is no doubt that women are the cornerstone of African economic development. According to recent statistics, women provide 70% of agricultural labour and produce 90% of all the food. They are mostly employed in the informal sector of the economy. Despite their contribution to the economy, women are still disadvantaged in many ways. For example, women do not enjoy easy access to economic and other ownership rights as men do. In the DA's open-opportunity society, women will enjoy the same rights as men. They will have job opportunities equally. They will have the right to own land and their contributions will be rewarded equally in terms of salary and recognition of their skills and qualifications.
The plight of our women in particular is made worse by our own patriarchal and oppressive practices and beliefs. [Interjections.]
Mrs T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to ask the member whether there are women in the Cabinet of the Western Cape.
Mr K S MUBU: Deputy Speaker, I don't want to answer that question. She is wasting my time. [Interjections.]
The plight of our women is made worse particularly by some of our patriarchal and oppressive practices and beliefs. Some of these practices place women in positions where they are subjected to unfairness and oppression by society. For example, a woman who loses her husband by death is required to wear mourning clothes for up to a year, but when a man loses his wife by death, he can marry another woman the following day. When a woman loses her husband, tradition requires that she must be cleansed before she can marry another man; yet men are not required to be cleansed.
It is true that a lot has been achieved during these 20 years, but more still needs to be done to emancipate our grandmothers, mothers, aunties, sisters and cousins from the economic injustices such as unemployment and so on.
Finally, I have a message for men who abuse women ... [Interjections.] ... and the message is this: You are cowards; you are not heroes. If you want to fight, I suggest you do this: Find the nearest tree and fight it. I can tell you that you are going to be the loser. Viva, women of South Africa! Long live the women of South Africa! [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 209
Mr K S MUBU
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, colleagues, comrades and compatriots ... [Interjections.]
Sesotho:
Ntate Mubu o ntshenyetsa nako. Ke ne ke tseba hore o tlo e etsa pina ya tshwene.
English:
You were just being negative and unable to recognise anything positive. I think that is your job description.
Celebrating a centenary of women's empowerment, leadership and participation in this gracious interior of the National Assembly, where laws are made, indeed confirms that you can't hold a tight lid on a boiling pot forever. Mrs Ditshetelo, this debate continues to be a victory in itself, so there is nothing wrong with us debating women's issues. Women are on the march and have always been at the forefront of the struggle.
The fact that under the ANC-led government we have transformed Parliament from being a dominantly male club with a few contending voices into a model for building a society of equals – a nonsexist society - is reason enough to celebrate. As a country, we have moved from 2,7% in 1994, and we now command a Parliament that is 40% women. [Applause.] In this way we can strongly articulate women's perspective in policy-making. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with us coming here because that is what is expected from us as women in this Parliament. It is a privilege for us to be here, but instead of asking how we should work together to raise the bar for women's empowerment, the opposition complains and complains.
Sesotho:
Ke kahoo ke reng ke pina ya tswene fela.
English:
This is not helpful.
We want to pay tribute to women of our country and the continent during this special Women's Month - the centenary of women's struggle for liberation. We want to salute our heroines - there is nothing wrong in that - who marched against passes for women in 1913, against the draconian 1913 Natives Land Act and against other unjust laws. We have to do it.
We would like to say halala to Comrade Charlotte Maxeke, who led the 1913 women's march in Bloemfontein with distinction and, in 1918, gave South Africa a well-organised women's movement, the Bantu Women's League, which was the forerunner of the ANC Women's League. Perhaps we are the only ones who can really talk, because we have the programmes, the policies and the theories. That is why others are saying, what's the point in talking. We are talking because we know that we have to organise and do the work.
Going forward, our challenge is to create conditions that are more conducive for sustaining and scaling up women's empowerment in all areas of life, particularly for young women. Ms Mosimane, we should not complain but put ideas forward. Let's talk about Cope's programmes for dealing with teenage pregnancies. We should not complain and say that there is nothing we can do. [Interjections.]
Sesotho:
Ha re bueng hore re tlameha ho etsang.
English:
We have to level the playing fields. We need to rid our country of all forms of violence against women and children. We trembled and that is why we stood up as the ANC Women's League and supported the woman who was molested in the Modimolle case. We trembled with indignation at the Modimolle monster, who orchestrated the gang-rape and torture of his ex-wife and other sexually motivated violations of rights and dignity of women. We are saying, join us.
The recent outrage in the country around the whole matter of gender-based violence clearly casts us as a nation that is serious about defending women's rights. Indeed, it has been very encouraging to see South Africans, especially this year, standing up, from all angles, condemning violence against women and committing themselves to working with whoever cares to do the work and fight this scourge.
The road that we have to travel is long. We have observed National Women's Day and Women's Month in memory of the marchers of 1959. This ensures that we are not complacent with our legislative and constitutional gains for women. Memory is a weapon and we have to celebrate these events. There is nothing wrong with that. But don't say that women do not want people to stand here and talk about this day or that day. Memory is a weapon. I am saying to the opposition that if, perhaps, they are not able to do anything, at least each one can teach one about the history of women, the struggle for gender equality and the strategies that we need to embark on to take the struggle forward.
We have made huge strides in affirming women. There is no denying that. The World Economic Forum Gender Gap Report of 2012 confirms categorically that we are fourth, worldwide, when it comes to women's representation. It is a victory and we have to celebrate it.
The majority of our provinces are under the leadership of women - five out of nine. That is a source of pride for us as a country. I agree that the challenge is to leverage the shifting balance to open up even more economic opportunities for women. However, we need to recognise the fact that we are making progress and that we have made progress.
The private sector, in particular, still displays an unimpressive record regarding women's representation at top management level. Patriarchy is still alive and consequently so is the need to sustain women's empowerment. Together, let's squash patriarchy in oppressive cultures, using the might of the foundations for equality and empowerment that we have laid under the ANC-led government.
Sesotho:
Mme Ditshitwe re se ke ra rera haholo. Re tshwanetse hore re bueng, re bontshaneng...
English:
Because I know, perhaps coming from the UDM, there is a culture ...
Sesotho:
... ya thero. Ke re mohlomong re ka bea thero fatshe, re tshwarisaneng, re bone hore na taba ena ya basadi re ka e lokisa jwang.
English:
The ANC is at the forefront and in the trenches of the gender struggle, in theory and in practice. We have lead the way, inside and outside, towards 50/50 gender parity since the 52nd national conference of the ANC. This resolution did much to demonstrate the ANC's unfaltering commitment to the protection and affirmation of women. We are accelerating this work to address women's direct developmental needs. The National Development Plan demands that transformation of the economy should involve the active participation and empowerment of women.
What we do to defend and empower women will show how serious we are in building a caring, equal and just society. Even as we celebrate Women's Month and the centenary of the women's struggle, the marginalisation of women in certain areas is threatening to compromise progress. Indeed, we have to acknowledge where we have shortcomings. However, we should not be shy to recognise and celebrate progress. For instance, we have seen this in the persistence and impoverishment of women and the poorest of the poor.
This informs the theme for 2013, which is, "A centenary of working together towards sustainable women empowerment and gender equality". This also says that we have to intensify our efforts to give women land during and beyond the centenary of the 1913 Natives Land Act. This is one way of addressing human needs and ensuring food security for all. That is what we are saying. We need ideas and not the complaints we have been hearing all afternoon. We need ideas, ideas and ideas, not complaints.
The building blocks are there to sustain and intensify women's empowerment and gender equality. We agree that since 1994, a lot has been done. South Africa is a constitutional democracy where gender equality is a constitutional imperative. Let's not complain. Let's rather say what more needs to be done.
We are signatories to many different instruments, from the Beijing Platform of Action, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the African Union Protocol and the SA Development Community protocols. As a country, we have to pride ourselves. We have a Constitution with an entrenched Bill of Rights in place, guaranteeing equality before the law.
Since 1994, we have put in place a range of laws that create an enabling environment. We really have to ask: How much more do we exploit this environment that has been created by government? We should not speak as if it had not been created consciously and deliberately by the progressive government that is leading this country.
In addition to our forward strides, we are poised to pass the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill to enforce gender equity in law. Again, you should pay attention so that the next time when you come to celebrate here, you should not pretend as if we have not passed this Bill, long after we have done so. As a nation, we can and must do better to improve the lot of women, during and beyond this Women's Month.
IsiZulu:
KaMazibuko, siyavumelana dadewethu ukuthi sibeke isiLungu eceleni sibonisane ukuthi senzani ukuqhuba le nqola; singalokhu sigxeka, sigxeke sengathi akukho okuhle okwenzekayo. Asikhulume ngokubi okwenzekayo kodwa siphinde sisho ukuthi yikuphi okuhle esingakwenza kulokho ukuze kube nenqubekela phambili. Asingagxeki nje unomphela engathi akukho okuhle okwenziwe; kuningi okuhle okwenziwe.
English:
An assault on a woman is an assault on all of us and to the benefit of none of us. If you defend a woman, you defend a nation.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyathemba kaMazibuko asixabani uma siya eGoli; ngiyayibona i-DA ilifuna la iGoli, ngakho izoze ihambe iyomosha le. Ngakho-ke kufanele siyilungise indlela uma siya le eGoli. [Uhleko.] Asingaxabani la ePhalamende ngoba kukhona inkinga efuna ukuyomosa la siya khona, njengoba ihlale imosa futhi ingaboni nokuhle nje.
English:
In the democratic space that we celebrate today, we want to work with women and patriotic men to clear all obstacles on the road to sustainable women empowerment. We do not need cry-babies. We need people who are willing and brave to confront the huge challenge of women empowerment. It is only when we work together as equals that we can build a united, democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous state.
It is for the whole of society to build on the foundation that this government has laid for women and to make it possible for us to lead quality lives under conditions favourable to self-development, skilling and empowerment opportunities. For instance, last year's research indicated that 56% of women who died from homicide were killed by people who were very close to them. Again, this is not about the government, but about what we do as a society. It is about how we socialise our kids differently so that they have a conscience and won't do such things. There is no justice system that can sort this out.
Government is stepping up access to justice and it is going to spend R3,1 billion on court infrastructure. It has opened the sexual offences courts. We need high levels of civic responsibility, collaboration and partnership. These have proven to be effective. I want to be very clear about the importance of all of us, including the opposition, taking civic responsibility together and ensuring that we protect our women.
We also welcome efforts by faith-based communities and traditional leaders in promoting the rights for women. Political parties and all other sectors that are working with us need to do more to mobilise community support. We all have a role to play.
Lastly, we believe that empowering women, as a people, across the gender divide, is the only path towards a better future for us all. Empowering young women socially and economically should not be an optional extra, but a precondition for consciously building a caring, loving and successful nation. Empowering young men and boys with the gospel of gender equality and a human rights culture in our homes is a sure way towards building peaceful and crime-free communities. In such communities children can grow up in harmony, oblivious of all the cares of gender indifferences, under the heat of the sun.
From the 100 years of the struggle of women, mainly led by the ruling party, against racism and sexism, we have learnt that the longer you try to cover the lid of a boiling pot, the faster the water of resistance will boil. Let's not wait any longer. Let's say: Wathinta abafazi, wathinta imbokodo. Malibongwe! [When you strike a woman, you strike a rock. Let their name be praised.] [Applause.]
QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 210
DEBATE ON NATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 9:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, malibongwe! [Interjections.] The antipoverty programme is a targeted intervention by government to fight poverty through the delivery of services to poor profiled households in identified wards, identifying change agents who can help those poor households move out of extreme poverty and the improvement of intergovernmental co-operation and co-ordination of service delivery. The programme has yielded many positive results countrywide, many of which I have mentioned in this House. These positive results are thanks to this intergovernmental co-ordination of service delivery and working with communities.
I would like to bring some examples to your attention. Following our visit to the Greater Taung Municipality in 2011, a joint, collaborative effort has been launched between the North-West provincial department of agriculture and rural development, the Agricultural Research Council and Haldor Topsøe, a private firm in Denmark involved in research, sales, technology and plant design, as well as catalyst production, to position Taung Agricultural College as a centre of excellence in irrigation technology. In this way, it ensures that communities in Taung benefit and are able to produce food to improve their socioeconomic status.
On another visit to Lutshaya in Lusikisiki in the Eastern Cape last year and early this year, we were able to attract support from the private sector, particularly with regard to support in schools and the upgrading of the local clinic. As we speak, there is a commitment to continue with the renovation of infrastructure in that area.
Another example of a positive result I wish to bring to your attention is that of government, at all levels, working with the community of Zwide in the Eastern Cape province, in the Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality. There, the youth is trained to build houses and they are, in fact, busy building houses. They are supervised by a private company. So, the replacement of shacks with brick and mortar houses is progressing fairly well in that area.
Of course, one of the lessons that are most inspiring is to see poor communities rallying to support each other. In Zwide, we came across a 94-year-old man who is a double amputee, uTat'Disemba Dyafta, in Ward 25. He is confined to a wheelchair, but neighbours in the same street took up his plight with the local municipality and harangued the local councillor to ensure that his house, which was in a dilapidated state, was renovated. When we were there, people from Joshua Doore had also volunteered to upgrade the furniture inside that house. One of the young girls who had just passed Grade 12 last year and has not been able to study any further, due to a lack of resources, indicated to us that she takes responsibility for looking after this old man, providing meals and ensuring that – because he is a diabetic ... [Time expired.]
Ms C Q MADLOPHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 210
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms C Q MADLOPHA: Hon Speaker, I would first like to thank the Deputy President for his response. I think it is a satisfactory response, but I would like to check whether this programme, the War on Poverty campaign, is really making a difference, in particular, to women out there in the communities. In addition, with this particular programme, can the Deputy President assure the nation that, if this campaign goes well, it will assist communities not to develop dependency syndrome and to become self-reliant? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon members, tomorrow, as part of this programme, I am going on a visit to Gombane village in Limpopo. There is a house-building project there. In fact, they are involved in brick-making. This is a co-operative of women. They produce their own bricks. It empowers women to not only build their own houses but also to garner revenue, and so improve and strengthen the local economy. So, indeed, these programmes do empower women – the one that I am going to tomorrow, specifically, is empowering women. Thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 210
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, the DA welcomes any and all efforts to alleviate the suffering of our poorest and most vulnerable citizens. However, we also know that the only way to eradicate poverty in our country is to create more and more job opportunities for more and more citizens. Yet, the Presidency's 2012 Development Indicators Report, which was released yesterday by the hon Minister in the Presidency, Collins Chabane, revealed that the number of discouraged job seekers in South Africa has increased by 1,139 million in the period since President Jacob Zuma assumed office in 2009. In addition, more than 68% of these discouraged job seekers are under the age of 35. It is clear that the War on Poverty campaign has not done enough to enable our poorer citizens and the youth, in particular, to enter the work force and uplift themselves from poverty.
Given these statistics, can the Deputy President tell this House what steps have been taken in the War on Poverty campaign to empower communities to find work and to enter the formal economy, and why these steps have not been effective? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, indeed, this programme is an intervention. It is not meant to and does not have the possibility of providing jobs to the rest of the population. That is why it targets the most economically depressed communities, to try and find change agents among those communities.
Otherwise, there are other programmes which, in terms of the creation of more permanent jobs - for instance, the infrastructure development programme - are aimed at increasing jobs. There is also a plan in the pipeline to develop the marine industry. That would also create more jobs. Of course, part of the infrastructure programme is aimed at building those catalytic rail lines that are so critical for unlocking even more opportunities in the Lephalale area, as well as the manganese and iron-ore areas in the Northern Cape, to link those to the sea ports of Saldanha Bay, Coega, Maputo and Richards Bay.
So, this programme should be looked at and assessed against that backdrop: There is a much bigger and more co-ordinated programme of creating more jobs, as well as sustaining jobs that are in existence today. This, of course, also calls for much more and closer co-operation with the private sector. Government can only create so many jobs and that is why the parastatals also play a very important role in this regard.
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 210
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, arising from his response, I would like to thank the Deputy President for highlighting these interventions and emphasising the need for job creation. The ACDP also believes that nongovernmental organisations play a critical role in the war on poverty in communities. We also know that without NGOs there would be even greater poverty, as they provide a range of statutory services for which they are partly subsidised by government, as you know. They also receive support from corporate and other donors.
However, Deputy President, many of the estimated 100 000 NGOs are facing severe financial difficulty due to increased demand and the decline in external donor funding. Would you not agree that government should consider reviewing their model for funding NGOs, or even consider greater tax deductions for donations to NGOs, as a further measure to assist communities in uplifting themselves in the war on poverty – this, given the very important role that NGOs play in communities and in fighting poverty?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Swart, yes, NGOs play a very important role indeed and they deserve support. That is why, in our discussions with the private sector, we are always trying to link some of the companies with the NGOs, particularly those NGOs that are capable of providing services and particularly with regard to procurement of, for example, catering contracts for these major corporations. Of course, as someone who works very closely with the SA National Aids Council, I am aware that the reduction in external donations does affect NGOs that are playing a very, very critical role.
As government, we took the initiative to ensure that we assist these NGOs with systems of accounting. Government can only assist NGOs to the extent that those NGOs have the capacity to account for how the money is used. Most of them, in the past, were really not that efficient in terms of ensuring that they utilise resources to the optimum. So, indeed, I think there is value in assisting and giving support to NGOs, but, as I said, the condition is that if it is public funds, there has to be accountability as well. Thank you.
Mrs C N Z ZIKALALA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 210
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs C N Z ZIKALALA: Speaker, hon Deputy President, it has been projected by the Department of Social Welfare that by 2015 almost 17 million South Africans will be on some form of social welfare. My question therefore is: When do you expect the developmental approach of the War on Poverty to begin having an impact and reducing the number of people dependent on such grants? Do you have any projections in this regard?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Ma'Zikalala, the fact that we have 15 million South Africans who receive one social grant or another is itself not sustainable. This is because we need to create jobs so that more people can be gainfully employed and also be in a position to contribute to the kitty - to the national coffers. If we have a situation where this number increases to 20 million and, at the same time, the pool of people who are gainfully employed and who are in business and therefore able to pay taxes decreases, it is not sustainable. It will lead to a financial breakdown and will push our country towards a financial crisis. So, that is why we are, on an ongoing basis, engaged in efforts to attract foreign direct investment, so that we can create even more jobs, to reduce the number of people who are dependent on social grants.
Other projects can play a role too. For instance, if we were to succeed in rolling out solar power in many of the poor households, that would go a long way in reducing their costs in electricity bills. It would also create the possibility that they could be earning income out of excess power that they generate from private power producers, once the grid is configured to upload from households. I would imagine that in provinces where they have sufficient sunshine, such as the Northern Cape, many of the people could be provided with solar power as an alternative, so that those of them ... [Time expired.]
QUESTION 10
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 211
QUESTION 9
Question 10:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the South African crude oil supply is on a very sound footing, thanks in part to government's policy approach, which allowed both public and private sector players to operate in this industry. Recently, we have witnessed increasing diversity in sources of crude oil supply to our country. This is in keeping with the government's energy policy objective of achieving security through a diversity of sources.
A significant quantity of crude oil still comes from the Middle East. However, African countries have been an ever-increasing source of crude oil to South Africa. In 2012, over 40% - that's about 56 million barrels - of our country's crude oil needs were supplied by African countries. In this regard, it was mainly from Nigeria and Angola. Imports from these countries were 23% and 18% respectively. This translates to about 200 000 barrels per day being sourced from within the continent. Of course this impacts very positively and significantly on intra-African trade.
Turning to Ghana, it is a well-known fact that significant crude oil reserves have been found in Ghana and South Africa believes that there is huge potential for mutual benefit between our two countries in this regard. South Africa can assure Ghana of crude oil demand and we can also get assurance from Ghana as a source of crude oil supply.
Year-to-year figures show that imports from Ghana have already reached 6,8 million barrels, which has increased trade figures between our two countries. Members may recall that we signed a co-operation agreement with Ghana which, among other aspects, facilitates energy co-operation between our two nations. At this stage, Sasol imports more crude oil from Ghana than any other oil company in South Africa. Going forward, we expect that this pattern will change due to increased co-operation between South Africa, Ghana, Nigeria and Angola.I thank you for your attention.
Mr N SINGH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 211
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr N SINGH: Speaker, thank you, Deputy President, for the response. As the IFP, we welcome your efforts on behalf of government to source supplies from new oil markets in order to maintain our growing economy and energy demand.
There is no doubt that our energy stability has been put in a precarious situation by the American sanctions on Iranian oil. You did indicate that our supply is on a sound footing. But as much as that is happening, I think we also have to look at the price that we pay for crude oil. The price that we pay for crude oil in relation to the rand-dollar exchange rate puts a lot of pressure on ordinary citizens of this country. When the price of fuel goes up, the cost of food, transport, etc goes up. Many manufacturing costs also go up. That is an area that we also have to look at.
It is to that end that we would like to know whether the Ghana negotiations have produced positive results. As you have indicated, there are positive results. Are they sustainable in the long-term for us to be able to source crude oil from countries other than Iran, so that we can benefit the citizens of our country?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Singh, yes, indeed, the policy of government and our approach is to diversify our sources so that we don't put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak. Of course, as we improve relations with source countries, that also guarantees us security of supply. We even have possibilities in South–South countries such as Venezuela. I know that our colleagues at PetroSA have also been looking in that direction to try and diversify our source as much as possible.
The rand-dollar exchange rate is a difficulty. It adds to the vicissitudes of the price and it creates difficulties for the economy as a whole. There is no doubt that once PetroSA begins to own blocks and begins to pump, we can fill up our reserve capacity with crude. This will also assist in regulating the price and protecting consumers from these vicissitudes.
Mr L W GREYLING
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 211
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, Hon Deputy President, the issue of security of oil supply is obviously an issue of extreme importance to our country. It is not only about securing crude supply, though, but also about managing price risk through the securing of bilateral agreements with oil-producing countries.
In that regard, can you confirm that we didn't in fact secure this year's bilateral agreement with Ghana by the cut-off date, which could lead to us having to pay more for that amount of crude oil on the open market? If so, how would we avoid this situation occurring again in the future?
In addition, why is it that a large percentage of our strategic fuel stock is, in fact, Basra crude, which is incompatible with our refinery requirements? Its price has also recently dropped, representing a significant loss to our country. What will therefore be done to remedy this particular situation?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Greyling, as we speak, over 60% of our fuel is sourced from Saudi Arabia and Iran. As you know, we have difficulties with Iran. You source crude oil according to the configuration of the refineries that you have. Basra oil is more suited to the refineries in our country at the moment.
We have to continue that work of diversifying. Also, there are plans in the pipeline to construct a new refinery so that we can also treat much heavier oil than Basra oil. Basra oil is the best because it also enables the production of jet fuel very easily. I don't think we have more room to manoeuvre there because we depend on the quality of crude that we source and Basra oil seems to be the lightest of them all. [Applause.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 211
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, as you would remember, during apartheid there was investment to establish the Sasol we have today. Is it not about time that the government seeks to invest in similar initiatives to lessen the challenges that we face? In particular, I refer to earth gas in fine sand, which seems to be in abundance in South Africa. I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Ngonyama, yes, indeed, Sasol still has the Public Investment Corporation as one of its major shareholders. But as you know, it also plays in the international space and it is now expanding to North America. They are making a huge investment there and we hope that they will continue to contribute to the Treasury through taxes and dividends.
Scientists tell us that we should follow the American example of extracting shale gas and that it would be a game changer in terms of our economy. Environmentalists who are concerned about the pristine condition of the Karoo are telling us that we may be inviting the wrath of the gods and cosmos if we did that. These are ongoing debates.
The Department of Mineral Resources is in fact the lead Ministry in terms of examining the prospects of harvesting shale gas economically. We are told that it would indeed impact very positively on our economy and make energy cheaper and more affordable.
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 211
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr V B NDLOVU: Speaker, I just want to ask why we don't improve our refineries if we wanted to cut down. The most expensive thing here in South Africa is petrol. Wherever you go, it takes petrol. Petrol impacts on everything - bread or anything else. If we increase the petrol price tomorrow, you must know that everything will go up in price. Why don't we improve our refineries and make sure that we invest more in Sasol to make sure that they improve their refineries? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think this is not only dependent on the improvement of refineries but also, and equally so, it is dependent on the strength of our economy. If we strengthen our economy enough to get to a point where the rand strengthens – say, equal to the dollar - these things would be much easier and affordable. It would not be that costly for petrol consumers in South Africa.
Of course, there are others in the economy who would argue that a strong rand is not good for our economy. It depends on whether you are an exporter or an importer. We are an importer of liquid fuel and we are caught up in that bind but we have got to do everything in our power to try and keep the price of petrol as affordable as possible by a number of interventions, including through PetroSA.
If it owns blocks of petrol and we have our own refineries, it may be possible to stabilise the price of petrol. At the moment, as I said, in the main, the biggest push behind the petrol price is the strength of the rand. The rand has to be strong, and the same with the economy. We need to try and strengthen the economy and therefore the rand.
QUESTION 11
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 212
QUESTION 10
Question 11:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and hon members, after the President's letter of 26 August 2010, Cabinet further discussed the Public Protector's recommendations at its meeting on 24 November 2010.
The Cabinet decided at its meeting on 24 November 2010 that the guidelines in the Executive Members' Ethics Act, Act 92 of 1998, and the Executive Members Ethics Code be subjected to an ongoing review, with the aim of simplifying its prescripts and application.
At its meeting on 20 April 2011, Cabinet approved that an Executive Members' Ethics Amendment Bill should be published for public comment. The Bill and the invitation to comment were published in the Government Gazette, No 34276 of 6 May 2011, as well as on the website of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
After the process of consultation, a new draft of the Executive Members' Ethics Amendment Bill was submitted to Cabinet by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development at its meeting on 12 October 2011. In this instance, Cabinet, after intensive discussions, referred the matter back to the Governance and Administration cluster committees for further consideration. The matter, which goes to the core of the doctrine of the separation of powers, has been further canvassed with various stakeholders through the executive arm of the state.
After recent discussions between the Presidency and the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Development, agreement was reached on an amended draft of the Executive Members' Ethics Code to be brought to Cabinet during the course of September this year. Once Cabinet has sufficiently applied its collective mind to the draft amendments, a refined Executive Members' Ethics Code will be submitted to Parliament for consideration.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 212
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, I believe that the Deputy President will forgive us if we on this side of the House believe that government is not serious about rooting out corruption, particularly corruption in the executive, and that they are ignoring key findings and recommendations by the Public Protector to ensure accountability and clean administration by the executive.
Yesterday, this Parliament gave a former Minister a slap on the wrist for a very serious breach of the Executive Members' Ethics Code. It could do no more because at this stage the Executive Members' Ethics Act lacks the teeth to do more. It does not have any further consequences for Ministers who have been found to be in breach of the Ethics code.
Therefore, the question arises: What is this government going to do? Can we ask the Deputy President whether he, as head of government business, will undertake, in this House today, to see to it that amendments to the Executive Act will be tabled and processed in Parliament before the 2014 elections so as to give it real teeth and to make sure that there are consequences for breaches? If not, why not? [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Killian. As I stated, the refined code is to be submitted and enriched by Cabinet during its sitting in the month of September, which is next month. Following that process, it will then be submitted to Parliament for consideration. So, I am talking here about a very tight timeline, because Cabinet expects to enrich the product that will be submitted to or tabled to Cabinet next month.
Mnu B H HOLOMISA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 212
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiXhosa:
Mnu B H HOLOMISA: Mhlalingaphambili, mkhuluwa, ngexesha esasizithathela umbuso ngenkani, mandulo phaya kooMatanzima nooSigcawu, into esayibonayo nesayibukelayo yeyokuba eminye imigaqo yezopolitiko yiyo ebangela ukuba abanye aBaphathiswa beKhabhinethi babesengxakini, njengalo ebelila apha izolo.
Ndicebisa ngolu hlobo ke, ...
English:
We need to restore the powers of the accounting officers - that is the director-generals - and that the political heads ...
IsiXhosa:
... zidlala indima yokongamela ukuze kupheliswe into yokuba inkampani isuke iye kwi-ofisi yoMphathiswa igaye inkxaso yoMphathiswa zize ezinye ezifake iziniki-maxabiso zinikwe amanqaku asezantsi, njengale ngxelo ndandiyithe thaca kuNxamalala kunye nani ngoDina Pule owanika umyalelo kwelaa sebe. Mayipheliswe into yokuba uMphathiswa ibe nguye oxelela abalawuli jikelele nabalawuli abazintloko naye wonke omnye umntu kwisebe ukuba mazinikwe bani na iziniki-maxabiso. Ngolo hlobo siya kuphuma kule ngxaki. Akukho mfuneko yokuba kwenziwe umthetho-sihlomelo. Makukhutshwe umyalelo oya kuBaphathiswa beKhabhinethi bonke wokuba ingabi ngabo abathatha izigqibo zokuba yeyiphi inkampani emayifumane isiniki-maxabiso. Ngolo hlobo, awusayi kuphinde ubone uMphathiswa osengxakini.
IsiXhosa:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hayi, siyalibulela eli cebo silinikwa nguNjengele, enyanisweni ...
English:
... accounting officers are protected against unlawful instructions or directives and ...
IsiXhosa:
... uninzi lwawo xa luthandabuza ukuba lo myalelo awukho semthethweni ayamxelela uMphathiswa njengentloko yezopolitiko ukuba ayisayi kulunga loo nto. Ngokuchubekileyo aye amcele uMphathiswa ukuba awubhale phantsi loo myalelo ingabi yinto ethethwa ngomlomo ukuze kubekho into ebhalwe phantsi neza kugcinwa ukuze inike ubungqina. Kusetyenzwa ngolo hlobo, mkhuluwa wam. Enkosi.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you might find that the microphone works better when it is on. [Laughter.]
Mnu B A RADEBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 212
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiZulu:
Mnu B A RADEBE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, kuSekela Mongameli, inkinga yabantu abaphethe amandla, abadlala ngawo, umdlavuza ohlasele zonke izindlela zokubusa emhlabeni. Yingakho njengamanje sikhuluma nje uNdunankulu waseNtaliyane u-Berlusconi utholakale enecala enkantolo; kusasa ubaba uBo Xilai owayeyimeya nonobhala wenhlangano yezepolitiki e- Chongqing naye uya enkantolo ngenxa yendaba yokuthi weqa imingcele yokuphatha kwakhe; kanjalo nalaphaya eKenya izakhamuzi zalwa zamasha, zilwela ukuthi abaphathi noma abamele umphakathi baziholela amaholo kakhulu futhi banemihlomulo eminingi kakhulu.
Thina siyathokozo kakhulu lapha eNingizimu Afrika ukuthi sinabo-Chapter 9 institutions lapho uMvikeli woMphakathi ekwazi ukukhuluma nabaphathi enze neziphakamiso uma izinto zingahambi kahle. Siyathokoza ukuthi umbuso we-ANC uyazithobela zonke iziphakamiso ezivela kuma-Chapter 9 institutions. Yingakho njengoba sikhuluma nje sibona wona umbuso uzoshintsha i-Executive Members Code of Ethics kodwa into engizwisa ubuhlungu ukuthi amaLungu aleli Phalamende akhomba ukuthi abaphathi ukuthi...[Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, order!
IsiXhosa:
SEKELA MONGAMMELI: Hayi, ndivumelena nalo ilungu elihloniphekileyo.
Mr M HLENGWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 212
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy President, in your response you indicated a process in which Cabinet has sent this back more than once. Therefore, the process is back and forth. The question is: How much confidence can we have in the executive when it is being both player and referee in a matter which, in fact, is of consequence to their actions? The question is: Have you considered speeding up the process to defer this to an independent body so that we can satisfy ourselves that the system of checks and balances is not compromised and that the executive is not both a player and a referee in a matter that concerns itself?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed, that is why the right product will be submitted to Parliament because the executive cannot adopt the code of ethics. It will contribute to it and enrich it. Thereafter, it will be submitted to Parliament for consideration and adoption.
QUESTION 12
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 213
QUESTION 11
Question 12:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, South Africa re-established diplomatic relations with Egypt in 1990, and both countries are important members of the African Union. On 4 July 2013, a day after the removal of President Morsi, our Department of International Relations and Co-operation called on the Egyptian Ambassador to express South Africa's concern at the unconstitutional removal of its elected President.
South Africa, consistent with the African Union Constitutive Act and its instruments, opposes all forms of unconstitutional change of government. South Africa continues to be guided by the AU Peace and Security Council and the AU High-level Panel for Egypt.
We are informed that the AU remains engaged with all parties to the conflict in Egypt to find a sustainable resolution to the present political crisis in that country. The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation has met with the Envoy of the Interim President, Ambassador Ibrahim Ali Hassan, on 24 July 2013. The Minister informed Ambassador Hassan that South Africa has not and will not depart from its support for the legitimate aspirationS of the Egyptian people. I thank you for your attention.
Mr H T MAGAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 213
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr H T MAGAMA: Speaker, essentially we want to acknowledge the principled position South Africa and the AU took on the matter of the unconstitutional change of government. We further want to commend the AU and our own country for their swift action in leading the international community on this matter.
However, we want to express our concern on the matter of the more than 900 people who have died in violent clashes in Egypt. They were mostly killed by their own government and, of course, there was the resultant destruction of property and churches, and so on. We use this opportunity to call on the South African government, and through it on the AU, to continue to be seized with the matter of Egypt and to help find a solution for Egypt to these lasting problems and for its return to democracy.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. I think there is a resonance between the sentiments expressed here by hon members and the position of the government.
Mr W M THRING
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 213
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr W M THRING: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the ACDP agrees with the stance of the AU not to support military coup d'etats on the continent nor the military governments set up as a result, as seen in Egypt. Yes, the ACDP also joins the voices of reason throughout the world and condemns the killing of some 900 civilians in the military take-over in Egypt. In the same vein, Deputy President, the ACDP condemns the violence against Christians in Egypt, allegedly at the hands of the members of the Muslim Brotherhood, who are said to have killed innocent Christians and destroyed and burned down churches and Christian businesses.
The question to the Deputy President is what intervention the South African government has made or proposed, diplomatically, to halt the killing of citizens, both Muslim and Christian, and to prevent the destruction of property, whether they belong to Christians or Muslims, in Egypt?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as South Africa we are working through the AU High-Level Panel, which has been mandated by the AU to engage with all affected sectors of the Egyptian population in trying to bring about a de-escalation of tensions and bringing about peace in Egypt.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 213
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I just want to be clear in my mind: Are we explicitly saying that the government of South Africa is not recognising the current military regime in Egypt? I just want to be very clear on that.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Our Constitution is consistent with that of the AU, which really does not recognise the military regime. However, as I indicated, the High–level Panel has to engage with the military regime because it is currently the state.
Mr M A MNCWANGO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 213
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Speaker, in light of the Deputy President's response that South Africa actually does not recognise the current Egyptian military regime, why, then, do we have the Egyptian Embassy in this country if we do not recognise that current regime?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, as I said, the Minister was engaging the Special Envoy of the Interim President of Egypt for the exchange of notes and also to communicate to them the stance and position of our government. Once a coup d'etat happens in any country, it takes a while because the situation will be very much in flux in that country. And it will take a while for those relations to be severed completely. So, the building and the staff will still be there. We also still have our presence in Egypt - our embassy is still there.
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon Deputy President. Just for the record, only four supplementary questions are allowed and that includes the person who asked the original question. We have done just that. That concludes questions to the Deputy President. [Applause.]
QUESTION 229
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 214
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 229:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Speaker, the reply is as follows: We issued tenders for the printing and personalisation infrastructure, as well as for the production of the blank cards on which the information of the holders of identity cards would be printed. We have successfully awarded these tenders to Gemalto SA and Altech Card Solutions, and contracts have been signed. The personalisation machines have been installed and Altech Card Solutions is currently finalising the unique software that will allow the personalisation of the blank cards.
We have also had a demonstration of the installed technology, by issuing a few cards to some of the leading citizens in our country. We had a demonstration to both the President and the Deputy President at the Government Printing Works, GPW. The GPW is the main card-production site. We also have a disaster recovery site, where a fourth machine has been installed.
With respect to challenges, members will of course be aware that this is really a pilot project for South Africa. We have never issued a card of this level of security and complexity before. The challenges have arisen primarily from the development of the appropriate software and systems for the integration of the range of elements that will make up the information that will be part of the card.
We have to establish new facilities in the Department of Home Affairs offices for the applications enrolment modules, or what is called "live capture". We also have to link all the existing legacy systems, including our fingerprint identification system, the population register, our current track-and-trace systems linked to passport application and production, as well as the existing legacy systems for the new passport production at the GPW. Of course, we are working to ensure that the production of the cards is entirely contactless, from application through to the envelopes with the cards being sent in batches to the couriers. All of this has led to us having to refine, factory-test and, in the next few weeks, site-test to the point where we will be able to announce to the country the call for citizens to come forward to apply for the smart ID cards.
Finally, we had to refurbish our offices because the physical layout was not suitable for a new system. Our offices have been revamped and the live-capture system has been installed. We have also had to install new servers and this has meant recabling many of our offices.
These have been some of the challenges but we believe the contracts that we have signed and the teams we have assembled will be able to get us to a point where we can issue the smart ID cards.
Adv A H GAUM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 214
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Adv A H GAUM: Thank you for the comprehensive answer, hon Minister. Mr Speaker, the follow up question is whether the Minister is satisfied that there won't be complications for citizens in possession of this new ID smart card when they want to register and vote in next year's national election.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Speaker, when we deal with new technology, particularly at the level of the advanced system development that this card has been linked to, and the attention to security matters, one would work towards ensuring that there are no complications. But I cannot definitively say that there won't be problems. I believe that the steps that are being put in place, particularly with respect to the factory, acceptance testing and the site-acceptance testing, which we have given a number of weeks to allow for, will help us to avoid some of the pitfalls that arise when one develops such a card.
With respect to the election, we have been in constant discussion with the Independent Electoral Commission and, in fact, we developed the card with their advice. The card will have two barcodes: one that will reflect the barcode that you have on the current green ID book, which is the information related to your registration as a voter, and a second barcode, which will contain the unique biometric details of the holder of the ID card. In fact, we believe that we have addressed the needs of voters regarding the use of the smart card should they have it – those who will have it when we have the election next year.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 214
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Speaker, I thank the hon Minister for the comprehensive answer. I want to ask the hon Minister, who spoke extensively about the software and the systems, what provisions exist to monitor and track any of the criminal acts that we have become so familiar with in the old system, such as attempting to duplicate IDs and so forth. What provisions exist to make sure that they are monitored and tracked if these things happen and, possibly, to even find the criminals involved? I'd love to hear something in that regard.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Firstly, I really think that the most important development with respect to fraud is the contactless process, from application right through to the issuing of the card. There are a range of security features that would be on the card. For example, the card can't be interfered with by human hand because if you do, that would essentially destroy the card. The picture of the applicant is laser-printed onto the card, unlike the current green ID book, where you can actually lift the cellophane wrap, remove a picture and insert someone else's picture. With a laser-printed card, you cannot effect a change to the person whose picture appears on the card.
Secondly, the current ID document does not contain your unique biometric features, particularly your fingerprints, which will now be on the chip and will be incorporated into the card. I do not want to go into all the features but it is a multilayered card, etc. I think the key point is that all individuals will have to present themselves for live capture. We think that the application process will take 15 to 20 minutes and that we will be able to issue the card within five to nine days. I really believe that the security features are of a world-class standard, does address some of the constraints that we have experienced in the past and really gives us a card that is going to be very hard to duplicate. You will have to buy all those personalisation machines – which are huge machines – to be able to have the process that we will have in place with respect to the production of the cards.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder? He seems to have pressed the button while he was out of the House. I don't know how that happened. I will now invite hon Makhuba.
Ms H N MAKHUBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 214
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Ms H N MAKHUBA: Hon Speaker and hon Minister, as we have seen on television, some South African citizens have already been given an opportunity with regard to the 100 ID smart card pilot project. Would the Minister kindly inform this House about the criteria that drove the department's initial issuing of this 100 ID smart card pilot project, and how many smart cards have been applied for thus far? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: We have certainly not issued 100 cards. Fewer than 40 were issued, and the persons who were issued cards at the launch of the pilot project are former Presidents of South Africa. As I recall, there are only four of them, while the fifth one is the current President. A card was also issued to him. The women who led the march against the pass laws and the Rivonia trialists – companions of Mandela, as we call them – were also issued cards. So, it is a very, very small group of people. I am aware that a letter has been written to me - I don't think it was from the hon Makhuba - indicating that former Ministers of the Department of Home Affairs were not presented with or invited to receive this initial outlay. We do believe that the former Ministers should receive the smart ID cards and we will do so. Ubaba [Mr] Prince Buthelezi, our first Minister in the Department of Home Affairs in a democratic South Africa, along with the other Ministers of the Department of Home Affairs, will receive it. May I also wish you a happy birthday for last month, Ubaba. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mnu L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 214
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L S NGONYAMA: Enkosi, Somlomo oHloniphekileyo. Mphathiswa oHloniphekileyo, ndicela ukubuza ukuba ingaba buthini ubuninzi bamakhadi anokushicilelwa lisebe lakho kwaye ingaba sikhona kusini na isicwangciso sonyaka okanye senyanga sokunabisa ukunikezelwa kwawo? Okwesibini, ingaba lo matshini uza kufakwa kuzo zonke ii-ofisi zeSebe lezeKhaya kumaphondo ohlukileyo kwaye uza kufakwa nini ukuze le nkqubo ikhawuleze? Enkosi.
UMPHATHISWA WEZEKHAYA: Bawo uNgonyama, ndicela ukuba uwuphinde umbuzo wakho kuba andiyivanga inxalenye yawo yokuqala. Kodwa ke, mandiqale ndiphendule le ndawo ndiyivileyo. Asizi kubafaka kuzo zonke ii-ofisi oomatshini, koko siza kufaka iseva kuba ziinkcukacha kuphela esizifunayo. Siza kusebenzisa i-Government Printing Works ukushicilela onke amakhadi. Ubuninzi bamakhadi anokushicilelwa – ndicinga ukuba yinxalenye yokuqala yombuzo wakho le – ngama-10 000 ngosuku xa kusetyenzwa ixesha lesiqhelo. Ngoko ke, kungashicilelwa amakhadi amaninzi kakhulu xa kunokusetyenzwa imini nobusuku. Sinethemba lokuba kungashicilelwa izigidi ezintathu zamakhadi ngonyaka. Yiyo loo nto sisithi siza kuthatha iinyanga ezintandathu okanye ezisixhenxe, kusetyenzwa imini nobusuku, ukuze sikwazi ukunikezela amakhadi kubo bonke abantu ngexeshana elifutshane.
QUESTION 228
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 215
QUESTION 229
Question 228:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Speaker and hon member, the statistics relating to police killings and the statistics of the police will be released in September. Practically, this means that if other police members were killed, they would be part of that list. We hope that that is not going to happen.
With regard to the second part of the question, yes, during the Basic Police Development Learning Programme, all police trainees are exposed and trained in various street survival techniques: Firstly, tactical approach to crime scene and attending to complaint; secondly, arresting techniques and proper handcuffing of suspects; and thirdly, close combat techniques, which entail, among others, restraining techniques. Trainees also undergo an intensive physical fitness programme that prepares them for the outside world.
When the number of police officers being killed increased in the 2011-12 financial year, a re-skilling course, also viewed as a refresher course for police officers, was introduced. Those provinces with a high number of police killings were targeted first and foremost, and then the course went to other provinces.
The focus of the course is on technical awareness, weaponary skills, how to stop and search vehicles and suspects, as well as approach and penetration techniques to effect an arrest. This project is ongoing. The other one is firearm competency, which is continuing in support of this project. Various other tactical courses and general policing courses are included in the training that contributes to the skills of police officers to ensure their own safety. The project is ongoing.
Debriefing, bereavement and other counselling, as well as a support system are in place in the SA Police Service's employee health and wellness programmes for families of slain members. Bereavement support is given, conveying the death message until support structures such as local church, families and friends are in place. Bereavement counselling is offered to the families on a continuous basis, accompanying and supporting families in the process of preparing for the funeral, arranging and/or conducting the funeral with the necessary emotional and spiritual support. The list is long. We recently launched the SA Police Service Education Trust, which contributes to the studies of the kids of SAPS members who were killed on duty.
I also want to highlight that, in 2011, we convened a summit against police killings, and certain things came out of that. One of the issues regarding the safety of police was the need to ensure that all police officers are afforded bulletproof vests. Others included an "adopt a policeman" initiative and ensuring that in each and every instance where a police officer is killed, flags at police stations are lowered to half-mast.
Mr W M THRING
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 215
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr W M THRING: Hon Speaker, thank you to our hon Minister for the reply. Hon Minister, the recent media reports of police murders in the Western Cape have highlighted a growing tension between two political parties - the ruling party, the ANC, and the ruling party in the Western Cape, which seems to be using, to some extent, the death of the slain policemen and women in the area as a means to score political points, as has been mentioned in the newspapers.
The ACDP maintains that political parties should not be seen to be playing politics with sensitive issues like crime, especially when our men and women in blue have paid with their lives. We do not require these kinds of approaches, but rather one that would set aside political affiliation and support one another in the fight against crime.
The question is: Have any steps been taken to work with other government departments to stop and prevent the killing of police members? How will the Minister ensure that our police members are being protected and are not drawn into political spats? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Speaker and hon member, we share the sentiment you are raising, particularly about police killings and what happens thereafter. We have made the point that it does not help anybody, least of all the police, when everything they do is criticised all the time, even when they are doing well. The point I am making is that it cannot be true that you have a police service in South Africa that is not doing anything well. That point must be made by everybody. Where police have to be criticised because they are not doing their work, we are the first ones to point that out.
It is important to underscore the point that many South Africans and government departments are very keen on working with the police in ensuring that they assist the police and protect them from attack. Many of these attacks happen when they respond to a call-out to go and attend to crime scenes. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Order! Do we have the hon Peterson-Maduna? Can the Chief Whip please request that members who are not in the House should not press the button? They should come to the House and press the button; not when they are not in the House. [Laughter.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 215
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Speaker, apart from the Minister attempting to blame the DA for the death of police officers, I have not heard a retraction of those statements or an apology to the nation yet here today. I ask the Minister: What is actually being done to better protect SAPS officers, not only in the Western Cape but certainly in KwaZulu-Natal, where they are murdered far too regularly? I want to know if there is a commission of inquiry in that regard. What is actually being done? We have not heard a word about that here today. Have any steps been taken, and if not, what on earth are you going to do about it?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Speaker, the fact of the matter is that many police officers are attacked here in the Western Cape and this is where the high rate of police attacks is. It is not only in the Western Cape, but the higher rate is here. We said that part of what we should all do is to restrain ourselves from uttering reckless statements that would open up police to further attacks. On that, there would be ... [Interjections.] On that, there would be no need for an apology, except for the fact that we should all restrain ourselves.
As I said, more than 90% of these killings happen when the police respond to a call-out. We have ensured that each and every police officer is provided with protective clothing when they go on a call-out because, in most cases, that is when attacks occur. In some cases, police members die and in other instances they get injured on duty. As I said, in addition to that we have all the work that has been done since 2011-12 regarding refresher courses on tactical approaches - and the training is continuing - to ensure that they are sound in terms of facing the challenges out there.
Mnu V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 215
The MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Nyambose kwengikade ngifuna ukukusho, okuningi kwakho ukuchazile kodwa ngifuna ukuthi ngigcizelele la odabeni lwabafelwa nabafelokazi. Umthetho kufuneka uqine ikakhulukazi kulaba ababulala amaphoyisa ngoba lo mkhuba uchaza ukudelela umthetho, kukhomba futhi ukudelela nokungawuhloniphi uMthethosikelo wezwe.
Ngakho-ke mhlonishwa, mina ngicela ukuthi kunoma ngoluphi udaba la kufe khona iphoyisa, abameli abamele umnyango noma umndeni baqinise ijoka ukuze lowo muntu obulale iphoyisa athole isigwebo esikhulu. Ngaphandle-ke uma lelo phoyisa kuyilo eligangile, kodwa uma life lifela emsebenzini, lapho makugcizelelwe ukuthi akufanele kudlalelwe emthethweni ngoba ukubulala iphoyisa kungukuchukuluza uMthethosisekelo.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMAPHOYISA: Siyabonga kakhulu Boya benyathi; siyavumelana kakhulu nawe kulokhu okushoyo. Umphakathi kufanele ukhunjuzwe ukuthi uma kubulawa amaphoyisa kuchaza ukuthi wona njengomphakathi awuzukuvikeleka. Ngakho-ke kuwumsebenzi wethu sonke ukuthi silwisane nale nto. Siyazibonga futhi neziyalo zakho ozibekayo ikakhulukazi kwezomthetho mayelana nokuthi zenziwe njani lezo zigilamkhuba ezibulala amaphoyisa uma sezibanjiwe. Siyabonga.
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 215
The MINISTER OF POLICE
English:
Ms A VAN WYK: Hon Speaker and hon Minister, in the police service there is a thin blue line between anarchy and law and order in this country. Every single attack on the police must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. In discussions with some police officers, especially after the killings here in the Western Cape, they indicated that there were contributing factors. One of them was that when they are in a vehicle, they struggle, for instance, to access their firearm because of the bulletproof vest.
I would like to ask Minister if he would consider sanctioning scientific research to determine the underlying reasons for these murders, so that we can establish whether there are specific contributing factors so that we can address them.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon member, if what has been raised is there, we will gladly look into it. The most important thing is to do everything in our power to ensure that they are safe. Thank you.
QUESTION 211
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 216
QUESTION 228
Question 211:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! I have been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): South Africa is a founding member of the African Union and as such has acceded to various AU instruments that govern the conduct of democratic elections, including the Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance. In this regard, South Africa considers elections as a platform by which the nurturing of governance through the electoral process enhances democracy and builds solid foundations for citizens' full participation in democratic practice.
On 31 July 2013, Zimbabwe harmonious elections marked an important milestone in the political life of Zimbabwe and for the region as a whole. Holding regular elections remains a marker of progress and the entrenchment of democracy in any country in the world. [Interjections.] The people and the government of Zimbabwe should be commended for their resolve to craft their own destiny ... [Interjections.] ... despite the noted shortcomings they faced relating to preparations ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! I can't hear the Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): ... relating to preparations, which included, among other things, logistical and funding challenges.
In this regard, South Africa, as a member of the AU, attaches great significance to the conclusions of the AU Observer Mission and fully supports the recommendations made by the 60-member observer mission. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 216
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chairperson, given the reports of serious irregularities, including vote rigging and interference with the voter's roll, why did our government rush to declare the elections successful and congratulate President Robert Mugabe on his election on 3 August just three days after the poll? Can the Deputy Minister explain how it is that at the SADC meeting in Lilongwe this weekend, we supported the position that recognised the election results when the final SADC report hasn't even been made public?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Hon Chairperson, it's important that one understands, firstly, that we are doing things in the context of rules and regulations ... [Interjections.] ... and therefore there was a background of SADC principles on how the observation of the elections would happen. Secondly, there is the issue of the African Union and its principles around adherence to elections and thirdly, there is South Africa's own observer analysis.
For the first time, you had at least 550 to 560 observers in Zimbabwe. Secondly, there were at least 60 observers from the AU; nine of them were there for a period of at least a month to two months. [Interjections.] Thirdly, South Africa had at least 120 members as part of the SADC mission. The issue here is that what the Leader of the Opposition in this House wants to see and what the rules and regulations are is fundamentally different. If, in the instance of the input that was made here, the intention was to find an alternative to an election, then the answer is no, we subscribe to the democratic process. There were problems and those problems were identified by SADC, including shortages and various issues. We have identified these issues; we highlighted them and we made recommendations for them to be corrected [Interjections.]
The reality is that even the leader of the opposition in Zimbabwe has withdrawn a court challenge. Therefore, who of us is supposed to do it - unless we are not satisfied even with that particular issue. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chair, may I address you, on a point of order? The Deputy Minister did not answer the question posed by the DA leader [Interjections.]. The Deputy Minister speculated on what he thought the Leader of the Opposition wanted to hear. She asked a direct question and he did not answer it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! That is not a point of order. There is a request for supplementary questions. [Interjections.].
Mrs J P NGUBENI-MALULEKA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 216
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mrs J P NGUBENI-MALULEKA: Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, you will agree with me that our government is a member state of the African Union and as such has an opportunity to participate in its internal processes. In this regard, the AU Observer Mission report should still be processed by AU member states and therefore pronouncements by member states should have the benefit of the collective view of the AU. However, it is a known fact that our government will always be ready to support other governments in matters relating to the processes of elections and in so doing actively promote democracy for all. Will the Deputy Minister inform the House about the nature of the support our government contributed to the running of the election in Zimbabwe? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Hon Chairperson, the nature of support from South Africa must be seen in the context of SADC itself, and therefore SADC has requested all member states to help, first of all, with the issue of the observer teams. That we have contributed. Secondly, as part of the facilitation team, South Africa was requested by SADC for the last five years to play a particular role in helping to mediate a process. Mediation by its very nature is always a difficult exercise but we have seen the establishment of the Global Political Agreement in that process. We have seen a working through of difficult matters and eventually we have seen the process towards the election. Even in the last couple of months, we saw extensive resources being spent by SADC in support of free elections in Zimbabwe but also to make sure that there is less violence. We saw that such measures can in fact lead to nonviolent elections. I think we must all commend the people of Zimbabwe for being able to go into this election, as difficult as it is, and we have seen no violence. [Applause.]
Mr E H ELOFF
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 216
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mr E H ELOFF: Mr Chairperson, I would like to know this: The report on the fairness of the election is still outstanding. When do you expect it and if it shows something negative, what is our stance going to be on it?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): The SADC summit meeting was last week. The report was presented - the interim one. There is a final particular report. However, as we have seen, these elections were free. We saw a nonviolent election process. This morning, in the portfolio committee, we heard the definitional questions around fairness, etc. As we have said, we will be guided in that process by the SADC final processes. However, up to now, we are satisfied that the people of Zimbabwe were able to exercise their will in the context of the election. [Interjections.] We call on everyone to support the people of Zimbabwe. [Applause.]
QUESTION 234
QUESTION 211
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
QUESTION 211
Question 234:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the answer to the member's question is yes. The member's application for a SAPS 108 personal inventory firearm was granted in accordance with the relevant prescripts of the SA Police Service. However, the member is now suspended without pay and his firearm was removed.
The SA Police Service complies with the required legislation, which includes the following: All official firearms and ammunition that are not under the direct and physical control of a member are stored in a safe or strong room that conforms to the prescripts of the South African Bureau of Standards standard 953(1) and 953(2) as prescribed by the SAPS regulations. Inspections are conducted of all firearms stored at all police stations.
Every member who has a firearm on his/her personal inventory is issued with an official safe for the safekeeping of the SAPS firearm. The possession of a prescribed safe is a prerequisite to the issuing of an official firearm on personal inventory to a member. All SAPS firearms and ammunition on a room inventory of a safe or strong room, or issued to a member on his or her personal inventory, are inspected twice a year and then certified on the Provisioning Administration System. A stocktaking and certification certificate must be completed by the inventory controller.
Designated supply chain management, Amos, also annually inspects all SAPS firearms on a room inventory of a safe or strong room, or issued to a member on their personal inventory.
Employees of the SA Police Service are reached via pro-active programmes conducted on a macro level in order to market the services of Employee Health and Wellness. These programmes educate police officials on suicide awareness, relationships, emotional regulation and topics relevant to the organisation and the individual.
Regular psychological evaluation is not possible due to various reasons, such as the ratio of employees to registered psychologists and it being prohibited in terms of the Employment Equity Act, Act 55 of 1998.
The top management of the SA Police Service views employee wellness as a top priority and therefore will support all scientific measures implemented proactively and reactively in order to enhance the wellness of all employees.
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, Minister, for the comprehensive answer. I think that we sometimes tend to forget the circumstances under which police officers are working and the strain that comes with constantly being in the line of fire. In that light, and since psychological counselling is currently voluntary, we know that the culture in the SAPS is that of not going to counselling because you would be seen as being weak. I want to ask the Minister whether he would consider making psychological counselling compulsory for police officers involved in trauma or shooting incidents.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I think that we would need professional advice on that matter because, as the hon member correctly puts it, police officials work under very difficult situations and circumstances and they sometimes come across horrible scenes. However, there is the situation just referred to - where male officers especially feel that if they undergo professional help, they would be seen as weaklings.
For instance, we had to talk to the officers in the North West after the Marikana tragedy. We made a point to those officials that seeking professional help is not a sign of weakness. After that tragedy and the impact it had on them all, even their provincial commissioner sought professional help. It is therefore something that we always emphasise. However, making it compulsory as opposed to voluntary, as it is at the moment, will largely depend on professional advice.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Will the member whose phone is ringing ensure that it is switched off. You are disrupting proceedings.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, because this speaks directly to the mental health of our officers, I find myself rather taken aback by the Minister when he says that he is quite happy to leave it as an option. It is international best practice to make psychological counselling an order. If it were compulsory for every SAPS member to have psychological debriefing after a traumatic event, like a shooting, killing or a clean-up, then there could be no fear of it at all.
Over the years I have requested time and again that professional counselling be made mandatory for all our SAPS members. I would like a direct answer from the Minister. Will he or will he not make it mandatory for all members who have been in a traumatic incident to have psychological debriefing? We can try to avoid the horrendous events when a SAPS member murders himself or herself and their entire family.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, thanks for your concern. As I have said, I am not a psychologist and as far as that issue is concerned, we will ask for help. [Interjections.] However, speaking generally, it would be difficult because counselling is not for only a particular instance. Generally, police work is difficult on a daily basis. Therefore, in terms of making counselling compulsory, I am saying that if this were within the prescripts of the profession itself, then we would gladly go for it. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr V B NDLOVU: Minister, do you have enough psychologists? The problem is that you may have many police officials who require this assistance, only to find that we run short of psychologists. Do you have enough psychologists to make sure that whatever you implement would be done as soon as possible?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon member, that particular question has never arisen, precisely because even those who are there are sometimes underutilised. As I have said, the voluntary nature of this service makes it look as if there is an abundance of psychologists in the police service. In fact, it is not like that. We know that in certain circumstances an officer might have experienced a particular situation but it is still difficult for him or her to undergo the service.
Until such time when, perhaps, everybody flocks to this particular service, we will not say that we are understaffed. We will only see when we get there.
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms A VAN WYK: Chair, following the Minister's answer, I think we need to look at this issue when we get to the SA Police Service Act and the review of that Act. Can we ask the Minister that the research that needs to be conducted be conducted before then? The fact of the matter is also that we know that in other police services throughout the world, they have embarked on such processes. For example, they would take the firearm away from the officer for a certain period of time. After psychological clearance, the firearm will be returned to the officer and the officer will conduct their service during that period.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Agreed. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 217
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chair, I would like to know from the Minister, since he shows huge sympathy for SAPS members who find themselves in this terrible situation, how that relates to the fact that according to the last available annual report, there are only 96 psychologists in the SAPS. That is a ratio of one psychologist per 1 600 members. Does the Minister think that that is sufficient?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: This is the same question that the hon member asked before and we have responded. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
An HON MEMBER: It is not the same question – not at all!
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, on a point of order, hon Ndlovu's question had nothing to do with the ratio of psychologist to police member. I think the Minister is adopting a generous interpretation of hon Ndlovu's question and by doing so he actually did not answer hon Kohler-Barnard's question at all. Can he please answer the question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, in terms of your interpretation of the response of the Minister, that should then be a new question.
QUESTION 201
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
QUESTION 234
Question 201:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson and hon Ndlovu, thank you for the question. I think we need to point out that many of the criminal matters that occurred since January 2013 may not have been finalised by the National Prosecuting Authority and the investigators as yet. Therefore, an accurate figure may not be possible at this stage. However, I can provide the hon member with the number of police officers who have been fired as a result of crimes they committed in the 2012-13 financial year. The number is 449 members.
Mnu V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
The MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga mhlonishwa ngale mpendulo onginike yona. Lo mbuzo ubuqondene ikakhulukazi nalaba abazenza amaphoyisa bengewona. Laba bantu abathi noma sebexoshiwe emaphoyiseni bagcine umfaniswano wabo bese bezishaya amaphoyisa. Iloko engikade ngikufuna ikakhulukazi ngoba igama lamaphoyisa lonakala lapho; ukuthi bangaki-ke abantu abebekade bengamaphoyisa nabangamaphoyisa manje? Ngoba labo yibona bantu ngempela okufuneka kubhekwane nabo; yibo abephula umthetho okufanele kuqondanwe nabo.
Njengoba usushilo ukuthi ubungakaziqedi izibalo zonke. Uyabona yini ukuthi igama lamaphoyisa libulawa yilezi zigebengu na?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMAPHOYISA: Yebo, lungu elihloniphekile ngiyabona impela.[Uhleko.] Ngivumelana nawe futhi lapho ngisho nakulo leli sonto kukhona ababoshiwe bebizwa nge-blue light brigade gang. Yilabo bantu ngivumelana kakhulu nawe.
Mr S Z NTAPANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
The MINISTER OF POLICE
English:
Mr S Z NTAPANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the UDM is concerned that the ranks of our police officers are being infiltrated by criminals. The question now is this: Are any new measures available to screen new recruits to our Police Service?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, hon member, we have been briefing the portfolio committee on issues relating to human resources, from recruitment to retirement. We were looking at the whole value chain, starting with some of the new suggestions that relate to recruitment. For a while now, having upright SAPS members has been a major sore and weak point. I thank you.
Moh P A MOCUMI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Setswana:
Moh P A MOCUMI: Motlotlegi Tona, ANC e amogela tshitsinyo ya gago ya gore o tlile go tlisa tshekatsheko; ka jalo, re a go tlotlomatsa mo maitekong ao a gago. Potso ke gore: Jaaka go na le molao wa sepodisi, a Tona o ikaelela go sekaseka molao ono gape; le go tlisa diphetogo mo molaong o? Ka go dira jalo, e tla bo e le go tswalela diphatlha fa e le gore di teng mo molaong ono. Ke a leboga.
English:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, I only heard the last part. I was looking for my earphones. I don't know which Act the member was referring to. Was the member referring to the SAPS Act?
Mrs P A MOCUMI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the ANC welcomes the initiative of introducing the audit. Hon Minister, I am asking if you intend reviewing the existing SAPS Act in order to close any gaps that might be in the current Act.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon member, firstly, I thank you for your comment on the audit of the police. We decided to do this audit because we thought it was necessary to know who these men and women in blue are and what their records are. We have done that and we will continue until the end to get to the bottom of that.
This and other issues – the ones that have been identified as "gaps" in SAPS - are going to be looked into as we amend the Act because these matters do relate to the Act. It is important that we take that view precisely because so much has happened between 1995, when the Act was promulgated, until now, both locally and internationally, as it relates to security matters.
Mnu L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
The MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L S NGONYAMA: Mandibulele Somlomo, Mphathiswa uNyambose, ndifuna ukubuza ukuba xa nirhwebesha amapolisa ingaba ikhona na indlela enizama ngayo ukunqanda ukuba abophuli mthetho bangangeni ngaphakathi?
English:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon member, thank you. Indeed, as I said, this has been identified. It is one of the weaknesses in the system. What used to happen is that we used to have a recruitment officer in the province. As a result, this recruitment officer, or these individual officers, were the be all and end all as far as that process was concerned. That opened them up for all sorts of things. Since 2010, we have had the process of a committee in the province, rather than an individual. However, we also linked the process of recruitment to community structures.
We also briefed the committee recently, in January, when we called all the station commanders, the cluster commanders and the provincial commissioners. Another aspect of strengthening this was to publish the names of those people who apply to be police officers even before they go to the police training colleges. Anyone in the community who knows that this particular individual is not fit to be a police officer would then have the opportunity to raise an objection.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 218
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Chair, I started asking questions about criminal police officers in 2007. The audit began in 2010. Even then this process was only half a job, because it ended at the end of 2009. It has been revealed that 568 of the 1 448 members of criminally convicted SAPS members were guilty of multiple and serious offences committed over the years, yet the audit was not continued into 2012.
We need to know what more you are hiding, Minister. How many more thousand SAPS members are convicted felons, working in the SAPS with a gun on their hips? Really, it is time for you to apologise because, internationally, this is seen almost as bad for South Africa as the Selebi saga. Our reputation is a laughing stock again. The fact that you have promoted most of these criminals in the SAPS right up to the top ranks is even more shameful. Apologise! [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Before the Minister replies, may I just request the hon members again to ensure that their phones are switched off. Someone's phone went off while the member was asking the question.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The audit we have conducted can never be said to be concluded. It will continue and it is continuing. May I say that on the list of people who have been identified here, some appointments date back to 1973. We have people with 40 years' experience in the police who have been exposed by this audit as people who are not upright.
The problem is that that hon member is a very unsatisfied human being, all the time. We can't help her; we just cannot help her! However, we will soldier on in ensuring that we clean up the police and get rid of those elements that are not supposed to be in the police.
NOTICES OF MOTION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
QUESTIONS
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs N T NOVEMBER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates strategies to produce thriving rural economies and ensure sustainable development.
Mr M MNQASELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mrs N T NOVEMBER
Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates possible solutions to the obstacles faced by the SA Police Service in combating drugs and gang-related violence in the province of the Western Cape.
Mr Z S MAKHUBELE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mr M MNQASELA
Mr Z S MAKHUBELE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the central role of educators in achieving the objectives of transforming education and in improving quality education.
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mr Z S MAKHUBELE
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the implications of the National Prosecuting Agency and government departments failing to comply with court orders.
Mr E M MTHETHWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates means to regulate the informal economy as a way to stabilise the conflict between foreigners and local traders.
Mr B M BHANGA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mr E M MTHETHWA
Mr B M BHANGA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the Cope:
That the House debates the crisis and the collapse of our marine vessels, the Afrikaner, Ellen Khuzwayo and Lilian Ngoyi due to improper management by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.
Ms J TSHABALALA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mr B M BHANGA
Ms J TSHABALALA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the impact of globalisation on the youth.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Ms J TSHABALALA
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates violence associated with political intolerance in South Africa.
Mr L P KHOARAI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 219
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Mr L P KHOARAI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates ways to balance the various rights, cultures and norms of our diverse country and to uphold dignity, mutual respect and tolerance for all.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 220
NOTICES OF MOTION
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) notes that a veteran leader of our movement and a champion of the women's struggle, Mama Sophia Williams–De Bruyn, was awarded the Freedom of the City of Johannesburg on Thursday, 15 August 2013;
2) further notes that the same honour was conferred posthumously on her fellow comrades Lilian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph and Rahima Moosa, who contributed to the struggle for a free, democratic, nonracial and nonsexist society;
3) remembers that Mama Sophie, who is currently a Member of Parliament, together with the above recipients, led the 20 000-strong historic anti-pass march to the Union Buildings in 1956;
4) believes that it is truly a momentous and fitting tribute for them to be given such recognition by the city of Johannesburg for their role in the struggle for women's rights and oppressed people of our country; and
5) congratulates Mama Sophie on her achievement and commends the City of Johannesburg for honouring our struggle icons.
Agreed to. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): On behalf of the Speaker and the presiding officers, we want to congratulate Mama Sophie De Bruyn on this outstanding achievement. [Applause.]
Dr W G JAMES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 220
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Johannes Cornelius (Neels) Coetzee)
Dr W G JAMES: House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) notes with great sadness the death of one of South Africa's greatest sculptors, Johannes Cornelius "Neels" Coetzee, on 2 August 2013, at the age of 73, after a prolonged illness;
2) recognises Neels Coetzee's contribution to one of our most extraordinary and rich periods for the imaginative arts, the 1980s and 1990s, when apartheid was dying and a democracy was being built;
3) further recognises Neels Coetzee's utter commitment to every detail of quality in his sculptural work, his teaching and external examinations conducted at seven South African universities;
4) further notes that Neels Coetzee completed 21 sculpture commissions, has 21 works acquired by public collections and won many prestigious awards, including those from Synergy, Afrox and Sasol;
5) extends its heartfelt condolences to Neels Coetzee's family, especially his wife, Koulla Xinisteris, his friends and former colleagues at the University of the Witwatersrand; and
6) wishes that Neels Coetzee rest in peace. Rus in vrede, robala ka khotso.
Agreed to. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 220
Dr W G JAMES
APPOINTMENT OF MALAWIAN PRESIDENT, JOYCE HILDA BANDA, AS SADC CHAIRPERSON
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) welcomes the recent appointment of the Malawian president, Joyce Hilda Banda, as the new Chairperson of SADC during the Southern African Leaders Annual Summit in Lilongwe;
2) recalls that the two-day SADC Summit is a statutory meeting of the regional body, which convenes annually in August;
3) further recalls that this year's summit was honoured by the participation of the Chairperson of the AU Commission, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, and the secretaries-general of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa;
4) acknowledges that in her address, Joyce Banda called upon fellow leaders to focus on agricultural investment's key role in ending regional poverty; and
5) congratulates Joyce Banda on her appointment and wishes her well.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 220
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
ASHLEIGH MOOLMAN PASIO NAMED "AFRICA'S MOST INFLUENTIAL WOMAN IN SPORT"
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) notes that South African cyclist, Ms Ashleigh Moolman Pasio, currently ranked 14th internationally, the highest position ever achieved by an African road cyclist, was recently named "Africa's Most Influential Woman in Sport" by the annual publication SA's Most Influential Women in Business and Government;
2) further notes that the awards are aimed at celebrating the excellence of women in the business world and government institutions;
3) acknowledges the need for greater recognition of women's contribution to sport; and
4) congratulates Ms Ashleigh Moolman Pasio and wishes her well in her future endeavors in developing and promoting women's participation and recognition in sport.
Agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 220
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
INTERNATIONAL CELEBRATION OF NELSON MANDELA DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) notes that on Thursday, 18 July 2013, people around the world celebrated the birthday of former President Mandela by devoting 67 minutes of their time to help others;
2) further notes that this day was officially declared International Mandela Day by the United Nations in recognition of his enormous contribution to the creation of a just society;
3) acknowledges that on this day people all over the world volunteer 67 minutes of their time by participating in charitable causes or serving the local community in honour of the world icon's selfless contribution to humanity;
4) recalls that on this day Mandela celebrated his 95th birthday at the Pretoria Medi-Clinic Heart Hospital, where he has been receiving treatment for a recurring lung infection, surrounded by his close family; and
5) calls on all citizens to contribute and participate in charitable acts not only on this day but throughout the year.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:24.
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