Hansard: Second reading debate: Appropriation Bill; Vote No 1 – The Presidency - put.; Declarations of votes on behalf of ANC, ACDP, APC, FFP & PAC ; Votes agreed to (DA, FFP, ANC & ACDP dissenting); Vote No 2 - Parliament - put

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 17 Jun 2008


No summary available.






The House met at 14:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on the Votes with regard to which they will be making declarations, recording their objections and intending to divide. This information will greatly assist the process in the House this afternoon.

I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote as they have indicated. Members may make declarations of vote from the floor microphones if they wish; thereafter I will put the Vote for decision.

I have been advised that by agreement declarations will be limited to one-and-a-half minutes each. The bells will be rung for five minutes for the first division on a Vote, but for only one minute for subsequent divisions.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency - put.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, the objection of the DA to be noted please.

The SPEAKER: The objections of the DA will be noted.

Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the objections of the ACDP to be noted.

The SPEAKER: The objections of the ACDP to be noted.


Declarations of vote:

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, as far as I recall, this is the first time ever that the ACDP will be voting against Vote No 1 on the Presidency for a number of reasons. The main reason is government's policy of quiet diplomacy while the innocent people of Zimbabwe are being brutally assaulted, tortured and burnt alive by Zanu PF militia.

The ACDP doesn't want to support a budget that will be used by President Thabo Mbeki to go into Zimbabwe to embrace and hold hands with an old man who is inciting war in his own country. Why is the cruel leader of Zimbabwe allowed to persecute and displace his own citizens from their homes in order to deny them the right to vote for a candidate of their choice?

During apartheid the ANC leaders were all over the world, asking foreign governments to impose sanctions against the apartheid government. The ANC called for UN intervention, but for a long time now they have been opposing UN intervention in Zimbabwe.

The ACDP wants to see people in our own country and Zimbabwe living in peace, and as a result the ACDP will vote against Budget Vote No 1.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, some of the Presidency budget is being used in countries such as Zimbabwe, but its purpose will not be achieved where the mediator advocates peace with a view to stabilising that sister-African country, while on the other hand Britain and America, especially, undermine the mediation efforts through its sanctions on Zimbabwe and irresponsible statements.

Zimbabwe long ago said goodbye to colonialism. Its patriots will not allow any form of colonial or imperialist power to lecture it on democracy, good governance or the Rule of Law when the lecturers have not been exemplary in Iraq, Iran and in Guantanamo Bay where thousands of prisoners have been refused their rights of habeas corpus for six years. Zimbabwe needs people who negotiate in good faith and want peace and stability in Zimbabwe. There has been talk of invasion of Zimbabwe by people who ought to know better.

Well, Tanzania's very noble and justified campaign to overthrow Idi Amin of Uganda nearly emptied the Tanzanian national treasury and Britain knows what the Falklands - or Malvinas - War courted. Equitable distribution of land in Zimbabwe and no sabotage of that country's economy by the forces-of-change regime are the only lasting solutions to the Zimbabwe situation coupled with reconciliation among the sons and daughters of Zimbabwe.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.

Declaration of vote:

Mr N T GODI: Madam Speaker, I wish to remind the House that on the day of the debate I was the only one who congratulated Parliament for having an unqualified financial audit report, with the exception that I had indicated that there was "emphasis of matter".

After having checked my dictionary I want to make a correction because "emphasis of matter" draws the reader's attention to matters that affect the financial statements and yet in that annual report there were "other matters". "Other matters" refer to matters that are of concern but do not necessarily affect the financial statement. So I wanted to make that correction.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, the DA opposes the Foreign Affairs Budget Vote because of South Africa's failure to live up to the human right's commitment that former President Mandela set for the country; and the country's inability to resolve the political crisis in Zimbabwe.

It is also very sad that we have been shamed by the painful xenophobic attacks on fellow Africans, citizens and others because of our dilly-dallying and denial syndrome.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, no Ministry can ever have a big enough budget but the PAC thinks that Foreign Affairs has been allocated an adequate budget. It seems, however, that the practice of asking the Department of Defence to pay for certain peacekeeping missions - if this is correct - and that the Department of Defence will be refunded from the African Renaissance Fund later must be stopped, or we must have stricter arrangements for refunds.

Reports suggest that the Department of Defence has not been paid on time for years and has been getting only qualified statements. Citizens of this country are often stranded abroad when told at the last minute that they cannot get visas. The USA is one of the notorious countries. It has placed some of our former freedom fighters on its list of terrorists. Our country and OAU member states must not enter into diplomatic relations that are not based on mutual respect and reciprocity.

Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, President Mbeki and the Department of Foreign Affairs are continually demanding that the problems in Zimbabwe should be resolved in a democratic way. After the MDC has been doing precisely that for more than 10 years, this department prefers to give Mr Mugabe credibility by saying that there is no crisis in Zimbabwe.

South Africa cannot allow Mr Mugabe to steal the election for a third time and the political power in Zimbabwe through his undemocratic abuse of power. Continued reports from Zimbabwe that Mr Tsvangirai and the MDC are not being allowed to hold election gatherings and are being arrested, while Mr Mugabe addresses such meetings, should now have already resulted in reaction from this department and the government. Everything indicates that Mr Mugabe's end is in sight. The reason why South Africa is still trying to artificially prop him up does not serve our interests and is incomprehensible.


Mevrou die Speaker, mnr Mugabe het oor die naweek gesê dat die balpuntpen nie sterker is as die geweer nie. Hy sal nie die uitslag aanvaar nie. Met alle respek, wat verstaan hy en die mense wat hom ondersteun onder die woord "demokrasie"? Beteken demokrasie slegs, "as ek wen, dan is ek `n demokraat"? Hy maak `n bespotting van die hele poging om demokrasie in Afrika te bevorder.

Botswana het vir ons `n voorbeeld gestel deur die Zimbabwiese Hoë Kommissaris in te roep en hom aan te spreek. Suid-Afrika doen niks nie. Hierdie departement doen niks nie. Die VF Plus kan nie so `n begroting goedkeur nie.

Mr M S BOOI: Madam Speaker, Amilcar Cabral said, "Tell no lies, claim no easy victories." It will be wrong for anyone to suggest questioning our human rights record as the old man, Rev Meshoe, does. It is wrong for somebody to suggest that given the fact that Zimbabwe has difficulties therefore the budget of Foreign Affairs should bear the brunt of the difficulties in Zimbabwe. As a reverend he should have sourced his views from the Bible because it would have told him "thou shall not lie".

It is wrong for my hon friend Seremane to stand up and argue that because we have not been able to resolve Zimbabwe today that it reflects as a failure on our foreign policy. I think he will appreciate that there are difficulties out there and that Zimbabwe is one of the difficulties. Therefore, I want to urge him not to listen to his leader, but to take a correct decision and fully follow his conscience and support this budget.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put:

Declarations of vote:

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Speaker, the Democratic Alliance opposes the Vote for Home Affairs. We would welcome any opportunity not to do so because we do believe very strongly that this department needs support, it needs to be pushed and it needs taken into the future. For far too long, the DA believes, the Home Affairs has sat with a moribund report, without direction and without any clear policies.

Recently this seems to have changed very much. We have welcomed the turnaround strategy. We fully supported it. We have welcomed the role of the director-general and his team. It's cost millions so far but we believe that this will bear fruit.

While much has changed, too much is still not right at Home Affairs. Offices are not up to standard, staff is demotivated and too many people are standing around in sunshine and in rain, waiting for ID books and other documents. They deserve better.

Most of all, much of the recent wave of xenophobic violence can be laid at the door of Home Affairs, because of its failure to monitor, manage and control the movement of peoples across our border. Government's response to the crisis was too little and too late. The City of Cape Town put government to shame with its response.

However, most of all because we believe in the future of this department, we would like to support it in the future years. But for those reasons, Madam Speaker, the DA opposes Vote 4 on Home Affairs. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: The recent violent attacks on foreign nationals have horrified the world and brought focused attention on the plight of foreign nationals. A report submitted in March this year by a team charged by the Minister with assessing and addressing the huge backlog in applications for asylum, has confirmed that a new backlog of "staggering propositions" has developed with the new influx of refugees since August 2005.

When refugees have no official status or documentation they cannot access jobs, health services or education and are at the greatest risk of xenophobia-related incidents. Additionally, the majority of South Africans who deal with Home Affairs officials attest to the inefficiency of the department and widespread corruption.

Whilst the ACDP appreciates that the department is in a process of a turnaround strategy, which we support, following a previous audit disclaimer by the Auditor-General, this department can only be termed to be a department in crisis. We also appreciate, however, that significant improvements and quick decisions have been implemented. But the department remains in a parlous state. Consequently, the ACDP cannot support this Budget Vote and trust that we will have an improvement in future years. I thank you.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the PAC declaration is that South Africa, our country, needs to elevate its standing on human rights in favour of refugees by ensuring that we sign and ratify all relevant Geneva Conventions regarding immigrants and refugees.

It is imperative for African unity to begin by ensuring that we are in compliance with all human rights instruments concerned with the promotion of human rights of all refugees and immigrants who come to our country. Thank you.


Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, indien 'n party hierdie Begrotingspos van Binnelandsesake sou ondersteuen, dan impliseer dit by implikasie dat u tevrede is met wat in die departement aangaan, asook met die diens wat daar gelewer word.

Die feit van die saak is dat hierdie department 'n rekord het van geweldige probleme. Die agb President het reeds vroeër vanjaar en verlede jaar tydens die opening van die Parlement in sy "state of the nation" toespraak verwys na die probleme in die Departement van Binnelansdesake.

Ons sê nie dat die agb Minister nie haar uiterste bes probeer om reg te maak in daardie departement nie, maar ons let dat daar 'n spesiale taakspan aangestel is om die department reg te ruk; die hele probleem wat daar was rondom direkteurs-generaal; die korrupsie en diefstal wat daar was met die verloreraak van identiteitsdokumente; die feit dat van die buitelandse state nie meer ons reisdokumente, ons tydelike paspoorte, wil erken of aanvaar nie. Daar is 'n hele rits van hierdie probleme.

Die feit van die saak is dat die gewone publiek daar buite, wat in kontak is met hierdie departement, kla op 'n deurlopende basis as gevolg van die swak diens wat hulle ontvang. Ons kan nie hierdie departement se pos ondersteun nie. Ons sal dit graag in die toekoms wil doen as dinge reggeruk is. Ons sal teen hierdie department stem.

Mr H P CHAUKE: I stand here, firstly, to support the Budget Vote on behalf of the ANC. I think members of the portfolio committee who have been speaking are fully aware that the changes we are beginning to see in the Department of Home Affairs, compared to the last twelve years, make it possible for us proudly to admit that there were problems, but we can see changes. Hon Lowe knows very well that without the current team that we have in the department we will not be able to go anywhere.

Therefore this call to support the Budget Vote is not only informed by just needing to give money to the department, it is also informed by the kind of changes we are beginning to see. I think everybody knows – and Mr Mulder knows this very well - that if this department does not have a budget, nothing will move in this country. I think all of us are fully aware that everything will come to a standstill.

What we have done in this House, with regard to the issue of refugees, is we passed the Amendment Bill a week ago which gives the director-general more powers to deal with issues of refugees. This used to be a problem before because we had only five refugee centres in the country.

This current budget helped the department to open more of these centres so that we are able to provide enabling documents to most of the asylum seekers, therefore, I think we must make

a honest call. All of us are aware of the challenges but the department is getting somewhere. We must give them credit where we see it is deserved. Therefore, as the ANC we support this Budget Vote.

Question put.

Division demanded.

The House divided: [Take in from minutes.]

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 5 - Public Works – put and agreed to.

Vote No 6 – Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.

Vote No 7 - National Treasury - put and agreed to.

Vote No 8 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 - South African Management Development Institute - put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.

Vote No 12 - Arts and Culture – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Education - put:

Declarations of vote:

Mr G G BOINAMO: Madam Speaker, it has been more than 14 years since the evil of the apartheid system was abolished for good. It is absolutely right that this government has vowed never to allow such discrimination to happen again. At the same time that these promises are made, however, our education system remains one of the most unequal in the world.

The South African Institute of Race Relations recently found that only 20% of our schools can make the claim to offer a world-class education. This means that 80% of our schools are dysfunctional and this government's policies continue to entrench this divide, instead of narrowing it. About 50% of our educators are not yet trained in the National Curriculum Statement. The curriculum is confusing and educators in the weaker schools struggle the most because in these schools even the basics of good schooling are not established.

There are still unqualified teachers teaching our children and these teachers are almost invariably in the weaker schools. The country s faced with an enormous teacher shortage crisis. The government has closed teacher training colleges and the universities can only produce between 6 000 and 7 000 teachers per annum. Where is this country going to get teachers from?

In the weaker schools, teachers are not assessed as inspectors are not allowed. Cosatu rules supreme and appoints fellow comrades as principals and teachers, with no consideration of their merits. The culture of teaching and learning has collapsed, for both teachers and learners are demoralised.

There is also a dire shortage of learning spaces, resulting in learner congestion in classrooms. Many schools are unfenced, with no running water, electricity, science laboratories or libraries. Only 20% of our schools have proper sanitation. Five hundred of the 728 no-fee schools in the North West Province have not received their budgets to date.

As a result of all of these things, learners cannot read, write or speak properly.

Violence, drugs and teenage pregnancy are common features of our schools. As many as 50% of South African children who start school do not complete matric. Even those children who complete matric are not properly prepared for employment or further education. It is the sad reality that more than 50% of the children ... [Time expired.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired!

Mr G G BOINAMO: The DA will not support an education budget that entrenches apartheid.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, despite the many challenges, the ACDP will support this Vote. Thank you.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the budget allocated to education is considerable. It will, however, achieve its goal only when the government recognises that our country is a developing country. Its education system must be tailored to its own needs. We must provide quality education that, although meeting our country's need, is not oblivious to the fact that it has to meet international standards. Because of the global nature of the world and the competition between nations, theories such as pass-one-pass all must not even cross our minds.

The PAC will always insist that education is the best national investment. The budget for education must seriously consider students from poor homes. They are in the majority. This country cannot be developed by the skills of the rich minority.

Is it not time that some subjects are taught in the nine African languages without abandoning English as a subject? Does chemistry, economics, plumbing or mathematics become inferior just because they are taught in isiZulu, Tsivenda or Sesotho? Well, the Germans have produced the Mercedes Benz car and the Chinese are a nuclear power yet they do not speak English. Of course, African languages need terminological development to cope with the rapid increase in knowledge in the world today.

An ANC Member: Madam Speaker, one could have believed hon Boinamo if he were not a member of the Portfolio Committee on Education. All the issues he has tabled are the issues that are being addressed as we speak. When it comes to monitoring, inspection, even the budget that has been allocated, what surprises me is that when we were going through this budget, we gave a hand because we felt we were talking from the same page.

I think the hon member is talking more for the people out there than he is talking about what is actually happening in the budget. The budget for education has increased from R11,3 billion to R18,9 billion over the four years. If we were to take the overall budget, then it would be R120,6 billion for all the schools, both provincial and national.

If we talk mainly about what we are busy with here as this Parliament and the budget for our national higher education, we will see we are assisting our learners to continue studying; we have bursaries for educators, bursaries for social workers and bursaries for FET colleges. This shows that this government has come a long way.

Again, if one looks at the presentations covering all these issues that were received by the portfolio committee when hon Boinamo was present, one would have thought that he would by now know which way the education system in our country is moving. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr W D SPIES: Agb Speaker, Suid-Afrika is een van die lande wat die meeste op onderwys spandeer met die minste resultate. Waarom gebeur dit?

Dit gebeur wanneer prioriteite verkeerd is. As prioriteite in 'n organisasie verkeerd is, dan is die uitsette nie eweredig aan die insette nie. Dis baie basiese bestuursbeginsels.

Waarmee hou die Departement van Onderwys hom besig? Hy hou hom besig met litigasie teen presterende skole, hy hou hom besig met rasseteikens, met rassekwotas en met die daarstel van ongelyke meetinstrumente om prestasie te meet. Die VF Plus kan dit nie ondersteun nie. Die VF Plus kan nie kondoneer dat daar op so 'n wyse met Suid-Afrika se belangrikste besitting omgegaan word nie, en daarom steun ons nie hierdie begroting nie. Ek dank u.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and National Allaincedissenting).

Vote No 14 - Health – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Health will be leaving a department that is in meltdown to her successor next year. Queues are getting longer, waiting lists for operations are growing, and the quality of health care is falling. There are 46 109 vacant nursing posts, and 9 711 vacant doctors' and specialists' posts. The department is in severe need of emergency surgery.

The department has once again received a qualified audit opinion. We are one of 12 countries in the world where the child mortality rate is actually increasing, a national embarrassment given the billions allocated to the department every year.

The Minister still has not given any credible reason why it took four years for her department to implement guidelines that would allow dual therapy to be given to pregnant HIV-positive mothers. Given the fact that these guidelines were ready in November 2003, the DA estimates that over 100 000 babies have been unnecessarily infected. The Minister owes the nation, and in particular the parents of these babies, an explanation.

In addition to this, 142 babies in the Eastern Cape died of diarrhoea. A simple rehydration mixture containing water, salt and sugar could have saved the lives of these babies, yet nothing was done until over a hundred babies were declared dead.

The Minister's continuing flirtation with quacks such as Dr Rath has caused this country and the fight against HIV/Aids untold damage. It has taken the High Court to do what you should have done, hon Minister, and what the Medicines Control Council should have done years ago, and that is enforce the law and protect vulnerable people from Dr Rath's concoctions. Hon Minister, you saw fit to protect him and promote his quacky concoctions. You have done more damage to the fight against HIV/Aids than you can imagine.

What we need is leadership in the fight against HIV/Aids from both the Minister and the President. The leadership has been sorely lacking from both quarters. The DA will be opposing this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Speaker, in measuring the state of our country's health, we must look at private and public health sectors.

While there have been incremental advances in both of these, for which reason the IFP supports the budget, the overall trend has been a decline. We are making this declaration to highlight the weaknesses and offer our solutions.

Our health information systems are inadequate. Co-operation within the department and between the department and other departments necessary to improve the health of people, particularly in rural areas, is inadequate. The average rate of age of death is declining. The rate of infant mortality is on the increase, largely due to infections, diarrhoea and HIV.

Public facilities are in disrepair. The 55 000 vacancies for nurses and doctors leaves them almost crippled. Matters that should be regulated, such as the use of cellphones within the hazardous radiation division of this department, are left to the industry. No warnings, no measurements, no radiation measurements are provided. The health effects of GMOs entering the food chain are not tracked.

Where does the hon Minister place her attention? She places it on prices in the private sector! Medicine price regulations are still not resolved. Pharmaceutical manufacturers make much the same on medicines since they save on rebates; yet, there is a greater shortage of pharmacists and no increased access to medicines in rural areas. Members of medical aids pay extra for nongenerics and administration fees and for higher medical scheme costs. Medical schemes are not transparent. There is no indication of what goes into administration fees and costs, making them more profit-making entities than meets the eye.

Hospital costs are now under the spotlight, yet medical devices are not regulated. The creative steering of a traditional health industry languishes, with the steady depletion of our indigenous plant resources.

The IFP has always advocated, and continues to advocate, for decentralisation; greater urgency on Aids and for treating Aids like an ordinary disease without special provisions for testing and treatment; greater use of mobile units and better partnerships with traditional healers to test for HIV; and competitive partnerships with the private sector and the public to make better use of the private sector's management, training, equipment and staff for large numbers of South Africans. Thank you.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Speaker, our declaration on health is that the rising cost of private medical aid policies and the decline of services at our public hospitals demand a policy that offers a national insurance programme for all.

Health care cannot be a privilege. It must become a right if we are to build a healthy nation that contributes to the economy of our country.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, firstly, one does not know whether to laugh or cry as this budget talks of reducing the impact of HIV/Aids on society by increasing access to a suitable package of treatment, care and support. And yet the Minister waves away the last 10 years of loss of life as if she were dismissing a fly that's being a nuisance!

There are legitimate concerns about the lack of crucial access to quality health care for a large number of South Africans, while proposals regulating private health care prices are foolhardy. Discouraging private hospitals from providing and expanding services and chasing away our few remaining doctors and specialists will help no one. Instead, lack of delivery by public hospitals should come under the spotlight and public-private partnerships should be urgently negotiated.

Medical aid, through a national health scheme, is also far more likely to broaden access to services. Why is this taking so long, hon Minister? Reports of increased numbers of women, babies and children dying are extremely disturbing, especially as experts believe these deaths could have been avoided. The ACDP mourns the loss of these women and their little ones, just as we mourn the loss of more than 600 000 additional little ones who have been legally aborted during the Minister's term of office.

Apart from all else, we are simply not spending enough on the public health sector, especially in view of the HIV/Aids epidemic and its ripple impact in terms of the disease profile. Previously, minimal increases in the budget have barely kept up with inflation let alone addressing escalating needs.

This, coupled with our total lack of confidence in the Minister, leaves us with no option but to vote against this budget. Thank you.

Mr L V J NGCULU: Madam Speaker, firstly, the issue of qualification of the Department of Health's budget report comes about because the Auditor-General deals with the issues of concurrent powers; it is not necessarily based on the performance of the department per se.

Secondly, one of the things that makes us, as the ANC, support this budget – and we will continue to do so – is the fact that, again, it is agreed by all those interested in positive approaches to health, also in the debate we had this morning in the portfolio committee about the HIV clinicians, that our programme on HIV/Aids is the biggest in the world.

In fact, one of the things that must be emphasised and continue to be emphasised is the research. There is an agreement that research must be scaled up. In fact, the issue regarding the guidelines for dual therapy is that they are just guidelines. And guidelines can't just be implemented carte blanche across the board immediately, because you must take experiences as they come, and learn and escalate from those experiences. That is why they are called guidelines. The problem is that if you want to experiment on the health of people, you must understand the consequences thereof.

One of the things I think we must appreciate about this budget is that the programmes on primary health care have actually grown across the board. The question of the children dying is a multidisciplinary challenge that is facing us. It is not necessarily only about health. [Interjections.] The question of the cleanliness of water is not necessarily an issue falling under the Department of Health. There is the question of the death of the children; diarrhoea is avoidable and that's why there must be a co-ordinated approach to all the issues that are facing us. The ANC will support this budget. Thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

[Take in from minutes.]

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 15 - Labour – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms A M DREYER: Madame Speaker, there are five reasons why the DA opposes the labour budget. The first is unemployment. The Department of Labour should alleviate unemployment. Instead it is putting obstacles in the way of job seekers as well as small and medium companies who want to employ more people.

the Minister has allowed struggling aspirant workers to give up hope.

Secondly, the compensations fund: This safety net should assist workers who become injured or disabled while on duty, instead, due to maladministration, it's leaving vulnerable people without care. Thirdly, with regard to training, the sector education and training authorities should facilitate the training of unskilled people, instead they have miserably failed in their duty, dashed the hopes of desperate young people and have created another lost generation. [Interjections.]

Fourthly, on the issue of nonracism and nonsexism, the Employment Equity Act is supposed to help create a workforce for all the people; instead it has contributed to the skills flight and divided South Africa along racial and gender lines. [Interjections.]

The last point is financial management: The department should spend tax money appropriately; instead it has received yet again another qualified report from the auditor general as did the sheltered employment factories, the National Skills Fund and eight Setas with some being placed under administration and others undergoing forensic investigations.

The Department of Labour does not enhance the South African labour force; it is incapable of proper financial management and cannot be trusted with public money. [Interjection]

Mr H P CHAUKE: On a point of order, Speaker is it possible that we can remind the member that this is not the military base. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Very Briefly, the PAC calls for learnerships that can enjoy an accreditation process that offers learnerships that enables millions in our country to compete competently in the work force. The amount of money spent on learnerships is not equal to the quality of outcomes, it is critical that learnerships be reevaluated by the Department of Labour. Thank you

An ANC Member: Maybe I should start with the PAC. I would like to advice the PAC to be part of this committee so that they can have more information about the whole thing as there are wonderful programmes in place concerning the learnerships and the amount of money spent.

Regarding the DA, I want to remind them that we have been dealing with some of the issues, especially the Setas, in each and every meeting in order to satisfy them. Let me just remind Mrs Dreyer, especially about the one point she raised. I am saying "reminding her" because as far as all the issues she is raising are concerned, we have dealt with them in each and every meeting and the department clarified and addressed all these issues.

In terms of Setas there is a Nedlac process regarding their review and, of course, recommendations from the review range from governments funding of Setas, their roles and functions and scope. I must say in 2010 there will be a new Seta landscape based on recommendations from the National Skills Authority which was tasked by the Minister of Labour Department. I don't know why Mrs Dreyer is raising this because it has been clarified.

In terms of internal control, there are guidelines for that. The department has also developed guidelines for the internal control system and finance management system which has subsequently been drawn up and circulated to all provincial departments and labour centres. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.]


Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Speaker, die Department van Arbeid is een van die swartskape in die staatsdiens. Dit is die department wat verantwoordelik is vir die Werkloosheidsverskerings Fonds, die Ongevalle Kommissaris en ook die Setas, wat die afgelope jaar in omstredenheid gehul is.

Dit het die afgelope jaar so sleg gegaan dat die department genoodsaak was om sy direkteur-generaal in die pad te steek. Waarom gaan dit so sleg? Weereens is dit 'n saak van verkeerde prioriteite.

Die Department van Arbeid moet deur middel van die gelyke indiensnemingskommissie die skydsregter wees vir die toepassing van billike indiensneming, maar wat doen die department? Deur middel van Mnr Jimmy Manyi, gebruik die department 'n kommissie wat veronderstel is om skeidsregter te wees, om aktivis vir diskriminasie te wees.

Die VF Plus kan dit nie goedkeur nie en ons kan om daardie rede nie die begroting steun nie. Gister was jeugdag, jongmense het geveg vir gelykheid, maar Suid-Afrika se jongmense het nog nie gelykheid nie. Voordat dit gebeur, kan ons dit nie steun nie. Ek dank u.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, National Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 16 – Social Development – put and agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 18 - Correctional Services – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, the situation in the Department of Correctional Services this year is somewhat better than it has been in previous years thanks very largely to the national commissioner's insistence on compliance with the law, policy and procedure.

Being better than last year, however, in a department as important in the fight against crime as Correctional Services is, is simply not good enough. There are still too many incidents of corruption in the department which seem to happen at the lowest to the highest levels, as we heard from the Special Investigation Unit the other week.

This sort of corruption has resulted in the escape of Ananias Mathe from C-Max in Pretoria and his near-escape again. There were also shameful escapes from the Qalakabusha Prison.

The department has also been lamentably slow in getting the construction of the new-generation prisons going. The finalisation of the Kimberley Prison, the only one currently under construction, has been delayed time after time. The others are awaiting final negotiations around the financing model.

These delays are occurring against the backdrop of the fact that the vast majority of correctional centres are overcrowded and do not conform to minimum standards of health and hygiene laid down by the Correctional Services Act itself.

Finally, the department has once again received a qualified audit and until such time as it gets a clean bill of financial health, this remains a cause for concern. It doesn't help that the chief financial officer of the department resigned suddenly 10 days ago.

For all theses reasons, the DA will not be supporting this Vote.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, we will be the first to say there are challenges in Correctional Services. But I think the ANC is a very responsible organisation. Our approach is to raise the weaknesses but one must also come up with solutions to the challenges. We really believe that it is our duty to assist the department to overcome these problems.

As hon Selfe has said now, I think the new accounting officer, Mr Vinnie Petersen and his team are trying very hard to tackle all these problems and the ANC appeals to all political parties and all members in this house to assist the commissioner and the department to overcome these challenges. The ANC supports this Vote.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 19 – Defence – put.

Declarations of vote:


Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Chairperson, we have reached a stage where we must, as a country, decide whether we want to have a defence force or not. I ask this question because the budget as it stands is inadequate.

When taking into consideration the issues and challenges facing the SANDF, the most critical issues are as follows: the rejuvenation of landward forces; the lack of ammunition for training; the retention of critical personnel; the critically adequate equippment and resourcing of our peace-keeping missions; and maintaining and developing the infrastructure.

However, the DA wishes to make it perfectly clear that while we take the position thay more funds should be given to the SANDF, we demand greater accountability for expenditure and results. When money has been misspent or delivery is poor, heads must roll.

We want to see a first-class, professional soldier being given the best possible training, being issued with up-to-date weapons and equipment and being led by military leaders of integrity and experience. It is criminal, chairperson, to have a situation in the SANDF where the personnel operational requirements are not adequately funded.

We are losing the technical skills of engineers, pilots and navigators at a fast rate - and ironically VIP flights are fully funded.

Moreover, Africa relies on the SANDF to a large extent for its stability. We cannot afford to play political games when the lives the future of millions people are affected and the security of our country comptomised. It is for this reason that the DA opposes the current Defence Budget Vote and calls for an increase in the Defence budget to enable the SANDF to fulfil its mandate and all its commitments.


Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, okokuqala nje, kufuneka ngisho ukuthi uMqondisi Jikelele walo Mnyango akawazi umsebenzi. Okwesibili, iminyaka isize yamihlanu ilandelana ababheka izimali bengafuni ukusiphasisa kahle lesi sabiwomali ngoba bethi asiphethwe kahle, ngakho-ke umsebenzi wakhe akawazi. Okwesithathu, sifuna ukwenza isiqiniseko thina, njengeqembu le-IFP, sokuthi amasosha lana asebenza ezindaweni zonke lezi ezingaphandle athole ukubhekelelwa kahle. Uma ngabe-ke laba bantu abasebenza izimali bengezukuwenza umsebenzi wabo ngokuhlakanipheleyo, bazokwazi kanjani ukuthi amasosha lana aphethe izibhamu, ahlala emzini yabantu nahlala emazweni angawazi azokwazi ukufukanyelwa kahle ukuze athokomale? Kuzosebenzeka kanjani uma amasosha ezongena emgwaqeni atoyitoye kodwa kungabibikho obekwa icala bese kuthiwa umuntu ophethe uMnyango uyawenza umsebenzi? Bayoxoshwa nini abantu uma kuwukuthi umsebenzi owabangani? Ngiyabonga.



Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, during the Budget Vote debate I told the hon Minister that I saw that they have developed a new salute in Polokwane – they saluted him by rolling their arms like this. But I didn't know that the effect was so vast, because I see that the hon Minister is not here today. Maybe the hon Kgalema Motlanthe can tell us whether there's been a replacement or not, because I don't see the hon Minister.


Agb Voorsitter, miljarde rande van die belastingbetaler is spandeer aan wapentuig vir die SA Nasionale Weermag. Dit is van die mees gesofistikeerde en ontwikkelde wapentuig en ons kan almal met trots sê dat dit wapentuig is wat Suid-Afrika aangekoop het.

Dit help egter nie ons het hierdie gesofistikeerde wapentuig, maar ons het nie die geld om die mense behoorlik op te lei of om die onderhoud op daardie wapentuig te doen nie. Ek wil vir die agb Huis sê dat dit nou omtrent al die derde en die vierde agtereenvolgende jaar is wat selfs die ANC lede saamstem dat daar nie genoeg geld vir verdediging is nie.

Ons sê altyd daar is 'n kritieke in terme van finasies om ons weermag behoorlik te laat funksioneer. Dit het dalk tyd geword dat hierdie Parlement moet besluit: wil ons 'n weermag hê of wil ons nie 'n weermag hê nie. Ons kan nie op hierdie manier aangaan nie. Ons weermag is besig om uitmekaar te val en daarom sal die VF Plus nie hierdie begrotingspos kan ondersteun nie. Dankie.


Mnu F BHENGU: Sihlalo, ndiyaziva iintetho ezi. La madoda athethayo besikunye ngela xesha besibambe ingxoxo-mpikiswano. Zonke ezi zinto azithethayo azikho ntsha.

Ndiyafuna ukuphakamisa ukuba noko iPalamente mayikhe iyiqwalasele le nto siyenzayo namhlanje. Iminyaka ili-13 sisenza into enye, efana nale. Ndiyacinga ukuba nokho iya kusinceda into yokuwuqwalasela lo mba, kuba siphinda-phinda into enye.


Coming back to the FF Plus, I cannot imagine a person coming to this House and asking the question: Do we need a defence force? Go and look at the Constitution.

We have discussed these matters, as I have said. We have discussed the issue of the audit reports, of the Auditor-General and of the public commission's recommendations. We have spoken about the state of readiness of the army, the ammunition and the equipment.

As for the welfare of the soldiers, yes, indeed, we cannot expect the unions to tell the department what to do, because the department, not the unions, has the capacity to address the issues affecting our soldiers. But, again, In the meeting we had this morning as the portfolio committee, we discussed these issues at length. [Time expired.]


I-ANC ke, Sihlalo, iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo lwabiwo-mali. Enkosi.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate – put.

Declarations of Vote:


Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, as one of the most important divisions in the parliamentary portfolio, the Independent Complaints Directorate is one of the few entities directly aimed at protecting the public interest. Now, despite having been kept, very deliberately, under-resourced and understaffed for years, and still today with an acting CEO, this entity has conducted hundreds of station visits, revealing filth and neglect in the cells. It has also investigated hundreds of cases of abuse on the part of SAPS officers as well as rape, murder and armed robbery, yet the ANC has kept this watchdog without teeth.

The police utterly ignore a full third of the ICD's recommendations when it investigates misconduct on the part of its members. In fact, the only time the SAPS pays it any mind is when legally obliged to, in the case of deaths in custody. Anyone who is suggesting that this under-resourced body, ignored on the whole by SAPS, could have conducted an investigation into police chief Jackie Selebi is misleading this House.

This body cannot replace the Directorate of Special Investigations. It needs its own budget debate and was, without doubt, compromised by being contained within the Safety and Security department, answerable to the self-same Minister responsible for the police.

This body is underfunded, sits within the wrong Ministry and is very deliberately being held back by a division determined to protect its own. The DA will not vote for this budget.


Mnuz V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo uphiko olubhekele izikhalazo ngokusebenza kwamaphoyisa i Independent Complaints Directorate ifana nenja enkulu engenamazinyo, konke ekwenzayo kufanele ukuthi baphakamise emaphoyiseni ukuthi awabophe amanye amaphoyisa. Akwenzeki lokho Sihlalo ngoba laba bantu okufanele ngabe bajezisa amaphoyisa abawenzi lowo msebenzi ngoba ozakwabo laba okufanele babajezise. Okokuqala lokho. Okwesibili kuchithwa imali kuqashwa abantu okuthiwa abaphenye amacala, abafela ezitokisini nabafa ngendlela engabonakali kahle, kwenziwe konke kuthi uma sekuyoqulwa icala, icala lingaqulwa kutholakale ukuthi abantu abasekho bonke futhi nalelo phoyisa obekufanele lenze lokho alisekho emsebenzini. Akekho oshoyo ukuthi kwenzekani. Ngamanye kukhona umdlalo nje odlalwayo kuloMnyango we ICD ongaziwa ngempela ukuthi umlabalaba obhekaphi ngoba ukhona nowesiZulu kube khona nowesilungu kanye nowesiSotho umlabalaba. Lo odlalwa kwa ICD awazeki ukuthi uqonda ngalaphi ngempela. Kuchithwa imali ngempela ngaphandle kokuthi kube khona umthetho ozoqonda ngqo ukuthi uma ngabe kufanele ukuthi uma ngabe kufanele ukuthi umuntu owonile i ICD imthole ukuthi wonile ajeze kufanele ajeze hhayi ukuthi kudlalwe ngabantu.


Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, whilst the APC will support the budget, we nonetheless want to highlight two things: One, it is a fact that the structure of the ICD was approved about 11 years ago, with 535 posts. To date, only 270 of those posts are funded. The question is: By when will the remaining 265 posts also be funded so that the ICD can operate at optimal strength? Also, seeing that numbers in the SAPS are increasing on a yearly basis, when will the next staff review be done so that the ICD is able to do its job effectively?

Secondly, there is the challenge of leadership. For the past almost 30 months, the executive director's position has been filled by people in an acting capacity and the current acting executive director has been there for 18 months. The question is: Why can't we put somebody there on a permanent basis or appoint on a permanent basis the person who has been acting in that position for 18 months?

If you look at the work that the current management team has done to get the ICD from a disclaimer to the clean audit that it will most definitely get this time around, I don't think there's any reason why we should keep these people in a less than permanent position. This will ensure that there is stability and effectiveness in that unit. Thank you.


Mr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, wat is een van die argumente wat deur die regerende party gebruik word om die Skerpioene te ontbind? As die vraag gevra word: maar wie gaan dan die polisie polisieer as die Skerpioene nie daar is nie, dan word daar baie vinnig gesê dis die Onafhanklike Klagte Direktoraat, OKD, se taak en funksie om dit te doen.

Die feit van die saak is dat dit mos vir ons bewys is dat die OKD nie in staat is om dit te doen nie. Die OKD het bestaan terwyl die klagtes teen hul Nasionale Kommissaris, Mnr Jackie Selebe al klaar daar was en die OKD kon niks daaromtrent doen nie; en hulle het ook niks daaromtrent gedoen nie.

Daarom sê die VF Plus dat die OKD, weet ons, is nie in 'n posisie nie, hy het nie die fondse nie, hy het nie die mannekrag nie en hy is net eenvoudig nie in staat om dit te doen nie. Daarom sê ons om die argument te voer dat die OKD daardie werk sal vervul is net eenvoudig nie waar nie. As daar nie indringend gekyk gaan word na die begroting van die OKD nie, en as daar nie indringend gekyk gaan word na die OKD in terme van sy mannekrag nie, wil ek vandag vir u sê, gaan dit 'n lamgelêde department wees wat eintlik maar net die belastingbetaler se geld gebruik.

Daar is hoeveel klagtes van die publiek teen lede van die polisie by die OKD. Ek persoonlik het al skrywes aan die OKD aangerig. Hulle doen nie eers die moeite om dit te beantwoord nie. Hoe kan die publiek dan vertroue hê in so liggaam as hulle nie eens korrespondensie behoorlik kan beantwoord nie. Die VF Plus sal dan nie die begroting ondersteun nie. Dankie.


Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP will not be supporting Budget Vote No 20 because of the ICD's lack of leadership. Complaints about the ICD being a toothless body whose recommendations are shrugged off by the SAPS management must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

The ICD must use its increased budget to address the problem of understaffing. IT must fill vacant positions and employ more investigators to fulfil the core mandate of the ICD. We trust that this increased budget will enable the ICD to buy more vehicles so as to be able to attend to crime scenes and court hearings. The ACDP will not be supporting this Vote. Thank you.

Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, since 2000 the DA has not been supporting this Budget Vote. The problem, according to them, has been that we have not been giving enough funding to the ICD. Yet now that the ICD is getting enough money from the department, they are still not supporting the budget. I won't stoop to their level, as people might not see the difference.

We acknowledge the challenges faced by the ICD and I believe, as Ntate Moruti Meshoe has said, that given the significant increase the ICD received, it will be possible for them to attract more investigators.

Regarding the issue of the acting head of the ICD, I would like to tell Ntate Moruti that the process of getting a suitable candidate for that position is about to be completed. The problem has been that the Minister has been advertising year in and year out, but we did not get a suitable candidate until this month of June.

Having said so, I won't get into details regarding the Scorpions. We are not debating the Scorpions here. The time will come for us to debate the Scorpions, and then we'll do so. We support this budget.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, African People's convention, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and African National Congress.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

[Please take in from minutes.]

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Declarations of vote:


Mr A I VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, in the debate on the Justice Vote, I expressed my concerns regarding the failure of the Ministry to adequately address the problems in Justice notwithstanding that Parliament has nearly doubled the Justice budget during the past five budgets.

The Deputy Minister who closed the budget debate did not address these genuine concerns. He referred to our inputs as nonsense, rubbish and vitriolic diatribes. Instead of engaging our arguments intellectually, he became personal and started to play the man and not the ball.


Vir my beteken "vitriolic diatribes" bitsige spotrede, wat glad nie ons bedoeling was nie. Ons was ernstig in ons begrotingsdebat, en ek kan u verseker dat ons regspleging as 'n hoogste prioritieit beskou het. Dit is waarom ek gesê het dat in 'n demokrasie is die Ministerie van Justisie een van die belangrikste portefeuljes, aangesien dit een van die arms van die regering verteenwoordig.

Die hele Suid-Afrika het die afgelope tyd besef dat al wat tussen ons en die anargie in ons noordelike buurstaat staan, is ons regstelsel. Ons is egter hoogs bekommerd oor die stand van ons regspleging en veral die aanslag op ons Konstitusionele Hof wat die finale skans tussen ons en anargie is.

As amptelike opposie het ons nie meer vertroue in die regering om die reg te handhaaf nie. En daarom kan ons nie hierdie begroting ondersteun nie. Ek dank u.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Voorsitter, ek stem saam met mnr Joubert wat betref sy sentimente.


But I want also to refer to the Deputy Minister who during the debate referred to the inputs by the opposition as rubbish. That means that the annual report of the Department of Justice is rubbish because what I said comes from that report. I proved it based on the annual report. The Minister and her department are failures.

I'll give you some ideas: Out of the personnel of more than 15 000, more than 9 000 have left that department. The department had a shortage of 70% as far as service delivery is concerned, and the amount of sick leave taken in that department, without medical certification, amounts to about to fifty productive years.

In the professional component, the prosecutors and the magistrates, the turnover rate was about 80%. Of the 1 493 courts on average, each did not even finalise an average of one court case per day. More than 720 000 cases were removed from the roll. Of more than a million complaints laid with the police only about 30% were eventually dealt with by the courts. What this shocking picture proves, based on the department's annual report, is that our justice system is a failure.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, a significant portion of R3,3 billion of the budget is allocated to court services. Of that amount R59,7 million is allocated to the Constitutional Court. Our courts are independent and subject only to the Constitution and the law, which must be applied impartially and without fear, favour or prejudice. No person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning of these courts. It is against this background that the ACDP views the recent developments surrounding the Cape Judge President and the Constitutional Court judges with great concern.

Public confidence in the Judicial Services Commission and judiciary was not well served by the manner in which previous complaints against the Cape Judge President, including that the ACDP, were dealt with by the JCI. We are now facing a greater crisis with Constitutional Court judges apparently divided on this issue. It is crucial for the Constitutional Court judges and the JSC to act urgently and in a transparent manner. A full and transparent enquiry must be held.

As far as the budget in general is concerned, the ACDP is fully aware of the challenges facing this department and the adverse findings by the Auditor-General. Whilst there have been improvements, surely after 14 years there should have been greater progress in this department, which plays such an important role in the fight against crime. We believe that this should have occurred and will regrettably not support this Vote. Thank you.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, the PAC is concerned about long delays in reported criminal cases coming to court, especially the High Court. In some cases evidence was been lost when witnesses died.

Our country has also been hit by scams. The perpetrators of these scams have robbed many innocent people who thought they were helping genuine cases of suffering. It is a recognised principle of law that justice delayed is justice denied.

Mr Y S CARRIM: Chairperson, obviously given the scope and magnitude of what the department deals with, there'll be problems. But it's nowhere near what it's pretended to be by the DA and the IFP, in particular. We, of course, have read the same report you read, but came to very different conclusions.

In fact, if anything, there is something both the DA and IFP need to note, and of course, the IFP wouldn't because Mr Koos van der Merwe is on permanent sick leave. How can he speak about sick leave in reference to the department's report when he is on permanent sick leave?

In fact, this morning we had the Customary Law of Succession Bill. He represents the IFP, but he was not there. We had the Traditional Courts Bill; he wasn't there. In fact, he has not been there at all in the seven months I've been chairing. Let me go on to say ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, there is a point of order.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: The point of order is: How can I attend a committee meeting if I'm not notified?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Baphela): That is not a point of order.

Mr Y CARRIM: Mr Koos van der Merwe won't know either that the vacancy rates have been reduced from 23% to 12% in the department, though we have said that that must mean more service delivery.

Indeed, when you talk about the budget, Mr Joubert, you know that it has doubled, but in this current year that has passed us by, 97,7% of the budget was spent whereas previously 92,7% was spent. This is a 5% increase, which is quite significant even though the committee as a whole has said that it is the quality of the spending, not just the amount that is spent.

In fact, the department has had to deal with issues that, strictly speaking, don't belong to its core functions, and we urged the Minister on this. The Deputy Minister regrettably cannot reply to the many statements made about it. Parliament should consider that because while statements are made here the executive members are not allowed to respond, and that is not entirely fair.

Also, you talk about there being anarchy in the north of our country. Why don't you to go the polls early next year and say the same thing? Indeed, if there is anarchy, why is it that the Democratic Republic of Congo has come to our country to get training in respect of its legal system? Why is it, too, that the Department of Justice is asked repeatedly to help other countries in Africa?

I have barely begun, but what can I do, the time doesn't allow me to finish. Perhaps I can talk to them outside this House. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-225: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlungwana, Z P; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Godi, N T; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hendricks, L B; Hlangwana, N; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mdaka, N M; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mfeketho, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motlanthe, K P; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H ; Pahad, E G; Pandor , G N M; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Roopnarain, U; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Sefularo, M; Selau, J G; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Singh, N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tshivhase, T J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Wang, Y; Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.

NOES-51: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, A; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Loe, S J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G.

ABSTAIN-3: De Lille, P; Greyling, L W; Jenner, I E.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 22 – Safety and Security – put.

Declarations of vote:

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance,

Inkatha Freedom Party, African Christian Democratic Party, Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, African People's Convention, Freedom Front Plus and African National Congress.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, billions have been spent on safety and security over the past ten years, yet we have an unwavering murder rate of 52 citizens per day and the viciousness of attacks during robberies and muggings is accepted as the norm. We have police criminality where we see them charged with rape, murder and armed robbery.

Sixty five percent of our police stations don't comply with the Domestic Violence Act. Thirty-eight million rand was paid out in civil claims this year to citizens who were beaten, run over, shot or illegally detained by bad cops.

Thousands of farmers have been slaughtered on their farms. We have millions of unregistered refugees we can't provide for because we don't know how many there are because this Ministry has failed to protect our borders. The massively expensive 10111 system doesn't work and millions are going to be wasted on scrapping one of the most successful crime units in our history, the Scorpions. Millions more are wasted on the utterly unproductive secretariat. Tourists are being advised to take their foreign currency elsewhere; men and women are being gang-raped in the SAPS holding cells; there are massive shortages in logistical support, the forensic laboratories are so far behind, cases are thrown out of courts.

The Minister is making coy claims that crime is decreasing but has failed to deliver the more regular release of crime stats as promised. Today we are being asked to provide a massive new budget to do exactly the same that has been done for the past 10 years when SAPS members of quality are being sidelined while unqualified members are promoted to act as station commissioners.

The answer is no. The Democratic Alliance will not under no circumstances vote for this budget. [Applause.]


Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, okokuqala, uNgqongqoshe unehhovisi likanobhala okufanele engabe yilona elikhipha umyalelo wenqubomgomo yoMnyango kodwa liyehluleka ukwenza lowo msebenzi. Eqinisweni bakhona nje phela ngoba bangabafowethu nodadwethu kodwa ukuthi benze umsebenzi lona okufanele bawenze, abakwazi nhlobo. Okwesibili, kuyanda ukugqekezwa kwemizi yabantu. Ngamanye amazwi, ziyanda izinto ezihlupha abantu emizini yabo. Akhona amaphoyisa okufanele ngabe enza umsebenzi kodwa awawenzi. Lokhu kubulawa kwabantu kwenzeka ngoba ubuholi abukho emaphoyiseni. Sekufanele manje silungele u-2010. Yiso lesi sikhathi lapho kufanele ngabe silungisa umphathi wamaphoyisa ozoba nobuholi. Uma ubuholi bungekho ubuholi uzoshonaphi? Nawe njengoba ulapho nje, Sihlalo, uyaholwa. Uma ungaholwa muntu uzoshonaphi?

Rev K R J MESHOE: The ACDP will not support Budget Vote 22 on Safety and Security not because we do not want the police to be paid decent salaries but because the police are not winning the fight against organised and violent crimes. The One Million Man March that took place this past week, was another expression of the unhappiness of the people about high violent crimes.

Threats that were made by the ANC Youth League President, Julius Malema, at a youth rally in Thaba-Nchu, must be taken seriously by the police. He is reported to have said that his organisation is prepared to take up arms and kill if the impending fraud and corruption court case against the ANC President is not dropped.

The ACDP believes that that was a reckless and irresponsible statement that the ANC leadership must condemn. Although the ACDP will not be supporting this Vote, we nevertheless hope that the police will be properly trained and prepared to prevent the ANC Youth League from carrying out their threats. Most South Africans want peace and stability, and not war. Thank you.

Mr A MLANGENI: On a point of order, Chairperson, the hon Meshoe says that the ANC leadership must condemn the statement made by Malema, the President of the ANC Youth League. For his information, the ANC has already disassociated itself with that statement and condemned it.

Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order, Chairperson, this is not a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I was still getting to that, so you are ahead of me. Hon Mlangeni, it was not a point of order, so leave it there.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, beyond crime figures, we need a safety and security system that works closely with communities and businesses in fighting crime. Communities need to be encouraged to take back their communities from drug dealers and criminals by having better support from the police to fight crime in their communities.

We still have police stations in the townships that have no working telephones and no available vehicles. The response from the system there being anarchy is still extremely slow in the townships. We still have rural areas in places like the Eastern Cape that do not have mobile police stations. It is critical that community policing becomes participatory.

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, the APC would want to stress that the fight against crime cannot be left to the police alone. It is a responsibility that all of us should take on our shoulders. In the struggle to rebuild our country and develop a new nationhood, it is important that our people should be thought new values and norms, especially our young ones.

They should be taught to love themselves, respect others, respect the property of others and respect other people's lives. We believe as the APC that if these values were to be instilled amongst our people, it would go a long way in making a substantive impact in the fight against crime. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD: In the reply to my speech during the Budget Vote, the hon Minister referred to me as a dead person. He said that I was a dead person because according to him I was part of those people who said that they would never allow the ANC to become the government, even over their dead bodies. Hon Minister, you have been wrong, again. I have never been part of those people. In fact, the people who said that are now actually sitting behind you on the same side as the ANC; and whether they are dead or alive in the ANC that, I won't know!

Hon Minister, I personally, in 1983 – and you have heard correctly, I said 1983 - I already predicted that the ANC would become the government of South Africa. You are wrong to say that I am a dead person.


Agb Voorsitter, gedurende die afgelope vyf jaar – en dit is volgens die statistiese gegewens van die polisiediens self – was meer as 4,6 miljoen mense in Suid-Afrika die slagoffers van geweldsmisdade. Dit is ernstige misdade soos moord, verkragting, aanrading en huisroof.

Huisroof het met 25,4% toegeneem en skakings het met 7% toegeneem. Daar waar die mense moet veilig voel, by hulle huise of op pad na hulle werk toe, daar het misdaad toegeneem. Suid-Afrika vergelyk in terme van die gemiddelde moordsyfer van 4 per 100 000 van die bevolking in die wêreld, agt keer meer as die gemiddeld en net daarom sal ons die begrotingspos nie ondersteun nie. [Tyd verstreke.]

Mrs SOTYU: Chairperson, on the issue that was raised by Dr Pheko, the safety and security portfolio committee, on the 10 November 2005, adopted a station monitoring tool that was given to all Members of Parliament, including the Opposition. They are to fill in that questionnaire whenever they visit stations and bring it to the portfolio committee. So far, only ANC cadres do that; the Opposition doesn't do it. That is why it is not possible for us then to attend to some of these issues that have been raised here, especially, the shortage of vehicles at there being anarchy police stations.

I'm so surprised that the hon member raised this issue of the farmers that are being murdered as I've never heard you saying anything about farm workers that are being murdered, especially in the Free State Province which you know about - especially along the borders. Yet today you come and take this opportunistic moment and raise itt here.

The issue of fighting crime not only depends on the police, as the hon member from the APC has said. It's the responsibility of us all. People are sick and tired of crime and we must look at both sides of it. That was also the message sent out by The Million Man March that we are talking about. The ANC supports this Budget. Thank you.

Question put.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

[Take in from minutes.]

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 23 – Agriculture – put.

Declarations of vote:


Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Chair, the DA will oppose the Budget Vote for the following reasons: the apathy of the Ministry towards commercial and new farmers regarding the problems they experience; the lack of support, planning, management and extension guidance to new farmers in their endeavour to develop sustainable farming enterprises. This has resulted in the failure of almost all the restitution projects that involve farming activities.

Then there is the indifference to the lack of implementation of the agricultural sector plan as agreed to by the President and organised agriculture; it just never comes off the ground.

The ANC government has neglected to protect South Africa against cheap imports of highly subsidised agricultural products to such an extent that South Africa has become a net importer of food and farmers have been put out of business.

The role that the Department of Agriculture played in the banning by Europe of the import of South African venison is inexcusable.

The inability of the department to enhance food security in South Africa and to develop high-potential agricultural land in poverty-stricken areas to produce food is a sign of major neglect. Then there is the poor state of affairs regarding the financial position of the Land Bank, which is under the management of the department.

Lastly, the lack of proper policy and timeous support schemes to assist the agricultural fraternity in times of disasters beyond their control, such as droughts and fires, which is absolutely necessary, is also inexcusable. We will not support the Budget Vote.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, we, in the IFP, will support the vote, but we believe that the Department of Agriculture can and must increase its efforts to promote the development of the agricultural sector in order to boost production and development, and in turn, also ensure a stable supply of food at reasonable prices.

The promotion and development of small-scale and previously disadvantaged farmers must receive particular attention. It is important that this support is qualitative and not based solely on numbers and the need to fulfil and achieve certain numerical or statistical targets. Real support must be forthcoming.

To this end, we are extremely concerned about the shenanigans that have taken place within the Land Bank. The aim of the Land Bank is to promote, facilitate and support agricultural development, but they are far from doing that. In fact, certain members of the Land Bank, senior officials and others, have been involved in funding the purchase of residential estates, golf courses and the like. Certainly, this is not one of their aims and objectives. Poor rural farmers and other disadvantaged farmers have not benefited from what the Land Bank can offer.

We believe that a forensic report outlining the shenanigans needs to be made public as soon as possible and that those who are responsible for the alleged corruption need to be brought to justice and put in jail, if necessary.

Further, we need to ensure that the monies that they have allegedly stolen or misused are recovered as soon as possible. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Is the ACDP taking the floor? You are next the list.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP is not going to make a declaration on this vote, but we will be opposing it.


Mr P J GROENEWALD: I can speak after them, I don't mind, hon Chair; it's your ruling.


Voorsitter, met die begroting het ek gesê dat die beste vooruitskouing vir die landbou in 'n lang tyd was die feit dat die agb Minister nie weer die Minister van Landbou sal wees na volgende jaar se verkiesing nie. Dis nogs teeds baie waar.

Sonder boere, sonder kos. Daar word baie gepraat oor voedselsekerheid, nie net in Suid-Afrika nie, maar in die wêreld. Die vraag is of ons werklik besef wat is die belangrikheid van ons boere. Die agb Minister van Landbou wat veronderstel is om die boere te beskerm en vir hulle te werk is egter die vyand van die boere. Sy beledig hulle deur hulle te vertel hoe sleg hulle hul werkers behandel, maar sy vertel nie van die meeste boere wat hul werkers absoluut baie goed behandel nie. Dít sê die agb Minister nie.

Ek het nog nie gehoor dat die agb Minister vreeslik tekere gaan oor plaasmoorde wat plaasvind nie. Nee, die agb Minister het hierdie portefeulje uiters swak bestuur. Daarom sal ons dit nie kan ondersteun nie en is dit tyd dat dié agb Minister maar moet gaan. Dankie.

Mr M R MOHLALOGA: Hon Chairperson, I just want to inform the House that hon Van Niekerk was the Minister of Agriculture during apartheid. He never cared for black farmers, and today he wants to masquerade as their champion.

He is objecting to this Budget Vote because the ANC government is committed to uprooting his legacy. Hon Dudley is opposed to the Budget Vote, but she is never at our portfolio committee meetings. She suffers from perpetual truancy, and comes here and opposes something that she knows nothing about. I still have to see her attending the portfolio committee meetings.

Regarding the issue about extension services and post-settlement support that hon Van Niekerk is raising, he knows quite well that this year the department is going to employ more than 1 000 extension officers throughout the country. In fact, when the Land Bank came to the portfolio committee, he himself was impressed with their presentation. Today he comes here to impress his political leadership. The same goes for the hon Singh.

Whilst we agree with some of the points that hon Singh has raised, we cannot raise the issue of the stability of the Land Bank as though we are running on the same spot. You were part of the portfolio committee and you appreciated the presentation by the Land Bank and the appointment of the new leadership. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, African Christian Democratic Party, Freedom Front Plus and African National Congress.

Mr M J Ellis: Mr Chairman, we were going to ask thatour objection be noted, but because of the provocation from the ANC we now call for a division.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

[Please take in from minutes.]

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24 - Communications – put.

Declaration of vote:

Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker ...

IsiZulu :

… ngento eyenzeka laphaya kwa-SABC ngaphansi kwalo Mnyango, nengane encane iyazibuza ukuthi kwenzekani ngempela. Namhlanje kumiswa umphathi wehhovisi kuthi ngakusasa ibhodi kuthiwa aliwenzile umsebenzi ngakho nayo ayimiswe. Yilowo uxosha owakhe kanjalo nomunye uxosha owakhe. Umaxoshaxoshana kodwa bebe besebenzisa imali eyodwa. Okokuqala lokho. Okwesibili, basebenzisa i-SABC njengomdlalo kanti i-SABC yayo iphuma lapha eNdlini. Okwesithathu, sonke lapha eNdlini sinelungelo ngokwe-SABC ukuthi sivele uma sikade sinemigubho noma kade sikhuluma lapho kade sikhona, kodwa kukhona abantu abangavezwa lapha kuvezwa abathize ngoba bengcono kunabanye. Kahleni nina ukubanga umsindo. Lokho kuyingozi. Ngihlale ngisho ngithi akungafakwa abantu bepolitiki kuthiwa abasebenze umsebenzi wokuphatha imisebenzi yabantu ngoba basebenzela ikwabo kunokuthi basebenzele wonke umphakathi. Ngiyabonga.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put and agreed to.

Vote No 26 – Housing - put and agreed to.

Vote No 27 - Land Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:


Mr A J BOTHA: Agb Adjunk Speaker, die Departement van Grondsake het 'n veelvoudige taak, veral binne die beperkte ruimte en vondse wat aan hulle toegeken is.

Die department se twee belangrikste take is egter die afhandeling van restitusie van eiendomsregte wat in die verlede onregmatig onteien is en, tweedens, die aankoop van grond om swart ekonomiese bemagtiging te bewerkstellig.

Restitusie moes al in 2005 afgehandel gewees het, maar daar word beraam dat die keerdatum now sover as 2012 sal moet uitstrek om die pyn en verontregting van almal aan te spreek. Volgens die departement se eie berekening sal R17 biljoen nodig wees, terwyl slegs 'n breukdeel hiervan begroot is.

Die teiken van 21 miljoen ha grond vir swart ekonomiese bemagtiging is eweneens onhaalbaar met die geallokeerde R2,6 biljoen, terwyl die department self 'n behoefte van R15 biljoen per jaar identifiseer het.

Boonop is die departement se indiensnemingsbeleid so kader ingestel, dat daar 'n tekort van 1 600 personeel is, wat dienslewering kelder.

Met sulke kniehalters, sou selfs 'n briljante departement struikel, maar in die geval van hierdie armsalige department, het prestasie "gestall". Onder die huidige leiding dreig hierdie departement baie meer as wat hulle doen, en daarom sal die DA hierdie begroting verwerp. Dankie.

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, I just want to remind the hon chairperson of the portfolio committee that being aware of a problem does not make it go away. Doing something about it does; and we certainly need to do something about what happened at the Land Bank even though it may be on a solid footing at the moment.

According to the report in the Estimates of National Expenditure, 93% of the almost 80 000 lodged claims have been settled, and this is a laudable effort by the department. But I think, once again, we shouldn't be looking at numbers. If it is 95%, Madam Minister, that is good, but there are still a number of claims that are outstanding that need to be gazetted. In KwaZulu-Natal there are almost 1 788 claims that have not been gazetted and still need to be attended to.

One of the problems we discovered in the portfolio committee is that the commissioners' office indicated that there is a lack of human resources within the office of the commission. We would like the hon Minister and the department to make sure that the commissioners' offices are adequately staffed so that they can deal with the backlogs and they can deal with these new claims as expeditiously as possible.

The aspirations of the claimants have to be met and we also have to address the fears of the farmers that have been waiting for a long time for claims to be settled. Thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon chairperson, I hope you do know that I am not a member of your committee, and if I wasn't so badly needed in my other committees, I would happily be there.

The 4,95 real per cent increase in the Land Affairs budget is hugely problematic as at least R74 billion in addition over six years is needed if we hope to deliver the remaining 21 million ha of land promised.

The ACDP believes that failure by government to meet its own land redistribution targets has been a trigger for irrational blaming and extreme policy and legislation. The Expropriation Bill, for example, just creates added insecurity with regard to investment and production. Key findings in a recent report on land reform show that erroneous perceptions about what is holding up land restitution have been misleading. The slow pace of settling claims, they say, is due to a chronic lack of staff, skills and experience in the department and the Land Claims Commission; and this is nothing new.

The ACDP has called on the Minister to seriously consider proposals by the Centre for Development and Enterprise for public-private partnerships that will seek to urgently speed up land restitution.

It is imperative that no holds are barred in accessing adequate budget and the capacity to effectively spend on sustainable land reform. South Africa is facing serious food shortages, and escalating food and commodity prices effectively counter efforts to eradicate poverty and improve the standard of living of all South Africans.

An urgent review of both the impact of land and agricultural policy and legislation on increasing food and commodity prices and the budget allocation to the department is needed. The ACDP opposes this budget, which is not going to get the job done.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, there are too many meetings in the House. Much as we would encourage them, because I think they are work-related, they could take place in the offices or in the restaurants.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, our declaration on the budget on land is that there will never be enough money to pay even for land claims that occurred after 20 June 1930, let alone the impossibility of resolving the land question with cut-off dates which derive from the Native Land Act of 1930.

Our country must go back to the principle of equitable redistribution of land. The present policy is a bomb explosion. The PAC would be abdicating its national responsibility if it failed to issue warnings about this. We wish the land question could be settled from 1930, but that is not possible.

All over the world land is a critical, sensitive issue, because there is a connection between land and economic power. There will never be economic liberation and social emancipation of the poor majority as long as land and its riches are in the hands of the minority.

The African leaders of this country and their kings indeed were not wrong when, on 20 July 1914, they sent a petition to King George V, the coloniser of their country. Their petition read in part that the `` … natives must be put in possession of land in proportion to their numbers, and on the same conditions as the others". [Time expired.] [Interjections.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker, ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have noted you, sir. I said it's the ANC.

Mr M R MOHLALOGA: Thanks, hon Deputy Speaker. I wouldn't mind if the hon member speaks before me. Hopefully I won't provoke the DA again.

I think it's convenient to blame the pace of land reform on the department, because that is only one side of the story. You could be right - partly. The real problem here is the price of land. You know that in KwaZulu-Natal there are areas where land goes for R10 million a hectare. So in a sense you've got the willing buyer, but there's no willing seller. The seller wants to use this opportunity to cash in on the revenue, and we cannot allow that. This point must be lifted out from the context of the debate around land reform.

The second thing is that our restitution commission is one of the best in the world. The work that it has done is cannot even be matched by any other body, including those in Canada, Brazil and Australia. They have pursued a similar programme of land reform. So this commission has done a good job in terms of land reform. Yes, there are challenges, for example, poor settlement and so on.

The problem with hon Dudley is that she is talking about the Expropriation Bill, and she knows that – well, she may not know this because she doesn't come to the portfolio committee meetings – it does not reside with our portfolio committee, but with Public Works. Now she is objecting on the basis of inexactitude. [Time expired.]



Dankie, Adjunkspeaker. Ek wil vir die abg lid van die ANC sê ek stem nogal saam met hom: die prys van die grond is nogal 'n probleem, want in Noordwes is daar 'n swart boer wat sy plaas aan die staat verkoop het. Die gemildelde prys daar is R4 000 per hektaar, maar hy het sy plaas vir R18 000 per hektaar verkoop. Ek het die agb Minister, amptelik in hierdie parlement amptelik gevra hoekom dit so is, maar sy weier om my te antwoord.

Sien, dis juis die problem. Weereens is ons terug by die agb Minister en haar en haar departement se onbevoegdheid. Sy probeer nou eintlik die blaam op die boere en die ander grondeienaars plaas, asof hulle die oorsaak van die probleem is. Hulle is nie die probleem nie.

Ek het vir die agb Minister gevra hoeveel mense die slagoffers van gedwonge afsettings van plase was. Sy het gesê dat sy my nie die syfers kon gee nie. Dit is die werklike probleem.

Die Minister se eie departement se strategiese plan stippel baie duidelik uit dat die probleem 'n administratiewe en 'n personeel probleem is. Ons moenie by mense verwagtinge skep wat ons nie kan nakom nie.

Ek wil vir die ANC sê: As u u grondhervormingsplan verkeerd hanteer, gaan u hierdie land op sy knieë dwing en hom in vlamme laat opgaan. Ek waarsku u.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the Vote. Are there any objections?

Mr M J ELLIS: Yes.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The objections of the DA will be recorded.

The Vote is therefore agreed to.

Dr C P MULDER: No, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And the FF Plus.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm sorry but you are changing the rhythm that we have had up until the time that you took over the Chair. Normally we put the question and then go to the Vote, but you are not doing that this time, so you are catching us a bit on the hop.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I am following the Rules. Rhythm or no rhythm, that is how it has to be done. Please take your seat. I've asked for any objections, and I've noted the objections of the DA. Is that okay; are you not objecting?

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are objecting, but I am trying to explain to you that there was a different process in place before you took the Chair. Now you've changed it, and you are catching us on the hop. I would prefer us to go back to the system that we had before you took the Chair. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I'm not doing this for the first time, and I've done it this way all the time. I said: I put the vote, are there any objections? The DA is objecting, the FF Plus is objecting, and now I'm saying the objections of the FF Plus and the DA will be recorded. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I humbly suggest that the Rules say differently. After you've asked if there is an objection, any member of the opposition may say there's an objection. Then you need to put the Vote fully – Ayes and Noes. After that, then one can object or ask for a division.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think you are very right there. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, if you had allowed me to finish, I would have said exactly the same thing!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Next time I will allow you to finish.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and National Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 28 – Minerals and Energy – put


Declarations of vote:

Ms A M DREYER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA opposes this Budget Vote for the following reasons. Due to power outages, mining output has contracted by as much as 22%, the biggest contraction in mining in over 40 years. Thus major mining houses are reviewing local capital operations and may ultimately cut jobs.

Secondly, the implementation of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act and the conversion of old order mining rights to new order mining rights resulted in substantial delays in the processing of applications, because the department cannot administer the Act efficiently.

The appropriation of ownership of mining rights from mining companies without any offer to pay fair value is scaring off prospective international and local investors in the mining industry.

The Precious Metals Act of 2005 determines that all applicants for diamond cutting and polishing licences, despite the size of the business, are subject to the mining charter. This means single self- employed individuals will be unable to continue with their occupation from the end of this month, leading to more unemployment. With regard to energy The 1998 Energy White Paper pointed to electricity crisis in 2007, despite that warning and plenty of time to plan South Africa finds itself in a crisis this year. [Time expired].

Mr O E MONARENG: I just want to note one point: The Mineral and Petroleum Regulation Development Bill is still under amendment and under discussion. We had public hearings and I am sure that that portfolio committee is an ANC-dominated portfolio committee. We do have the IFP participating regularly, but the DA has rotating members. So the DA cannot come here and say that there are flaws in the MPRDA Amendment Bill because the process is ongoing.

I just want to say around electricity and the price hikes, the ANC reiterates its position, based on its submission to the National Electricity Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, that as long as the electricity price hike by Eskom is not considerate towards the poor, the downtrodden and the unemployable, it will continue to oppose the 53% price hike. Firstly, the price hike should be smooth and over a period of five years. Secondly, the Mannenberg site costs should be done or taken over by the state.

Based on these principles, the ANC supports this Bill. What we want to say is that because the ANC is the people's organisation it is people-driven, it is biased to the poor, the downtrodden and the working class and the ANC will always fight the struggle to make sure that it improves the conditions of the people. The ANC supports this Vote. [Time expired]. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now put the question. Those in favour will say aye.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And those against will say no.


Dr C P MULDER: Madam Deputy Speaker, we would like to object please.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Won't you just wait for me to announce the result?

DR C P MULDER: But I did not want to say anything, in the first place.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the ayes have it.

Vote agreed to (Freedom Front Plus, Democratic Alliance, Independent Democrats, African Christian Democratic Party and National Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 29 – Provincial and Local Government - put.

Declaration of vote:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Declarations of vote have been requested. I call on the IFP. The IFP have changed their mind. Would the ANC like to change its mind as well or will it take the slot?

Mr S L TSENOLI: We'll take it, Deputy Speaker,


Ha re qeyaqeye hohang. Tjhelete ena e abetswe lefapha lena, e yang tiisong ya makgotla a metse le diprofensi e etsa ona mosebetsi o re lalakatsang hore o etsahale ka hare ho lekgotla lena la setjhaba. Re tshehetsa ka botlalo kabo ena ya ditjhelete lefapheng lena. Ke ya leboha mme.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises - put


Declarations of vote:

Ms F I CHOHAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I thought it was important that we hear in this House today yet again - when we are voting R130 million for a matter this morning – that when the portfolio committee took a briefing on Alexcor, there were no opposition members present at that portfolio committee meeting. And I do think that when we exercise our oversight it is important that members reflect a measure of fairness. And we can only do so when we have fully equipped ourselves with information and we are able to speak with a degree of knowledge.

I want to say that many SOEs are doing rather well and that the department and the Minister should be commended for this. Denel, Transnet, and I daresay even the SAA, have restructured and reoriented their businesses. In this regard we certainly do not have any objections to this Vote.

While Eskom still operates with some challenges, I think this House would be failing in its duty if it does not commend the fact that Eskom has been able to handle the winter's increased demand rather well. And for this we should definitely all support this Budget Vote because it is indeed a vote of confidence in the institution and the people who have worked under much strain. The ANC supports this budget. {Time expired.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Independent Democrats, African Christian Democratic Party, Freedom Front Plus and National Alliance dissenting).

Vote 31 – Science and Technology – put.


Declaration of vote withdrawn:

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Madam Speaker, this Budget Vote was supported by all the parties. Therefore, there is no need to even engage on it. You can see that it is very clean there. The PAC is not even here to defend its case. The ANC supports the Vote.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry - put.

Declaration of vote:


An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support Vote No 32.

Vote agreed to (DA dissenting).

Vote 33 – Transport – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, I was in two minds when considering whether to give you a clean bill of health in possibly your last term as the Minister of Transport. Although much expenditure has gone into public transport, which I support, I then got to thinking whether, in fact, any heed had been paid to previous objections to this Vote or whether any improvements had been made over the past budget years.

Unfortunately, I had to come to the conclusion that the negatives outweighed the positives for the following reasons: Firstly, the department's vacancy rate has still not improved and sits at an unacceptable 41%. Of more concern is the fact that many of these vacant posts are in the upper management and technical levels.

Secondly, the taxi recap has been poorly managed from its concept and the delays in putting the Taxi Scrapping Agency in place timeously resulted in Treasury reducing the recap fees this current year to 8000 taxis per annum. This programme could in fact now take 15 years to be fully implemented.

Thirdly, the poorly handled implementation of the road accident fund legislation amendments and its regulations have resulted in losses of R10 million a day to the already insolvent fund. Despite the R2,7 billion cash injection in the previous financial year, the fund still sits with over 350 000 backlogs in claims. A new funding model is urgently needed, Minister.

Fourthly, Minister, your lack of communication with the transport portfolio committee on finding solutions to crucial issues like road and rail infrastructure is unacceptable, particularly in the light of the fast approach of the 2010 World Cup.

Finally, your failure to listen to the concerns of the portfolio committee on the massive Gautrain expenditure is coming home to roost with its costs rising from the region of R20 billion to a now estimated R23 billion. Under the circumstances, Minister, I regretfully have no alternative but to not support the Budget Vote.

Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon Farrow says he is in two minds. Unfortunately, the lesser of his two minds won the day in his input.

Of course there are challenges on the transport front, but let's see the wood for the trees. This budget represents a five-fold increase over the budget of 2004, and it is sustained over the MTEF period – this five-fold increase. This is in line with Cabinet's decision to ensure that public transport becomes the legacy for South Africa, coming out of our hosting the 2010 World Cup final.

In all of our major cities, including Cape Town, we are seeing the development of wonderful public transport plans and the beginnings of implementation. I am quite sure that within a year to a year and a half we will, for once in South Africa, finally see some wonderful transport.

Also encouraging is the fact that for the first time in a long while we are starting to see a decrease in the numbers of fatalities and injuries on our roads. They are still unacceptably high. But this marked increase across the board is beginning to tell us that we are starting to do something right. For all of these reasons and also because the department's vacancy rate is down from 41% to something like 30% - still too high but improving - the ANC strongly supports this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put.

Declarations of vote:


Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, Dwaf, has made great strides over the last decade. Indeed, hundreds of thousands of South Africans have now access to clean drinking water for the first time despite many more people waiting in the wings.

The decision by the DA to oppose this budget this year is not taken lightly. This is the first time we have ever done so. But there are a number of issues that require the urgent attention of the department if we are to avoid a future water crisis.

The death of over 140 babies from waterborne disease in the Ukhahlamba Municipality is a clear indication that all is not well. But there are also other concerns, including the fact that there are a number of mines operating without water licences. The ecological reserves of rivers are not always respected as water withdrawn by industry and the mines, with the knowledge of the department, sometimes exceeds what is ecologically viable.

A number of important rivers, including the Vaal and the Crocodile Rivers, as well as the Wonderfonteinspruit, are becoming increasingly polluted. A number of dams, including the Hartebeespoort and the Roodeplaat Dams, are suffering from severe eutrophication. No epidemiological studies have been concluded to determine the long-term effects of cyanobacteria toxins on human or ecological health.

Furthermore, 165 dams have been identified for dam safety rehabilitation, which suggests a lack of maintenance and investment. While 46 of these dams are being prioritised, the situation needs to be improved even further. It is important that warnings on water are sounded for the health of South Africans and our environment. Our water's future security needs to be ensured now. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. The target that was set for the 2007-2008 financial year was to supply water to 1,7 million people. The year under review saw the ANC providing water to 1,27 million people. Out of 4,95 million people in South Africa, 2,4 million people have no access to water and 3,3 million have no access to basic services. Since 1994, access to water supply infrastructure improved from 59% to 95%. How can this budget then be opposed?

On sanitation, the ANC government set a target of 300 000 people in this financial year. This was increased to 301 000 without access - 3,5%. How can this budget then be opposed?

On the bucket eradication for 2007, the backlog was 118 301. We removed 95 218. The backlog is now still 23 083, with the Free State, Eastern Cape and the Northern Cape still outstanding. But that is not because there wasn't a will.

The communities themselves have asked that there must be waterborne sewerage. Discussions are taking place in at least seven out of the nine provinces on the drinking water quality, which the member of the DA is complaining about. Currently, the portfolio committee is having hearings on it. On raw water quality, we have been asked to adopt a river, and the DA has yet to adopt a river. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time Expired.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.


(Second Reading debate)

Order disposed of without debate.

Question put.

Bill read a second time.

The Bill will be sent to the National Council of Provinces.

The House adjourned at 16:43


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