Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 21 Jun 2023


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary


The Council met at 09:40.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... [Inaudible.] ... as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system; that delegates were physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones; that all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chart room. As tradition I would like to remind all delegates that the interpretation facility is active; permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their electronic devices is properly activated to facilitated access to the interpretation services.

Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desks to access the interpretation facility. Hon delegates, I have been informed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. Let me take the opportunity to welcome all of those delegates who are joining us, as well as any other public representative who may not have been ... [Inaudible.] ... here yesterday. So, welcome to everybody. I can’t say welcome, hon Michalakis because you were here. Hon members, we will now proceed to the First Order. I now call on hon D G Mahlangu.





Ms D G MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I have requested through the Table that I address while seated. Thank you. Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chairperson, the Chief Whip of the NCOP, hon members, permanent and special delegates present, the members of the executive council, MECs, present and on the platform and fellow South Africans ...




... dumelang.



It is my privilege to Table before the august House a report on the Eskom Debt Relief Bill that is B5 – 2023 on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations. Hon Chairperson, the committee adopted the report while the DA, the Freedom Front Plus and the EFF reserved their positions on the matter.



Hon Chair, the Bill was tabled in Parliament by the Minister of Finance on 22 February 2023 together with the 2023 Budget and was referred to the committee for consideration and report on 25 May 2023. The Bill provides for a direct charge against the National Retail Federation, NRF, for the debt relief to Eskom Holdings sos limited and to provide for matters incidental thereto. Hon Chairperson, the committee received a briefing from the National Treasury and further consulted with the Financial and Fiscal Commission and the public benefit organisations, PBOs. The Money Bill Act read with section 72 of the Constitution of the Republic also mandates the committee to conduct public hearings and report to the House on comments received and proposed amendment to the Bill if any.



In compliance with these provisions, hon Chairperson, advertisements were published in print media in all official

languages, as well as on Parliament website and social media platforms inviting the public and interested parties to comment. Written submissions were received from stakeholders and interested parties. Hon members, during the processing of this Bill we had public hearings and the committee observed some key issues and made the following recommendations: The Minister of Finance should gazette the Eskom Debt Relief Bill, B5 of 2023 which proposes the overall allocation of

R254 billion consisting of R78 billion for the 2023-2024 financial year. Then R66 billion for the 2024-2025 financial year and R40 billion for the 2025-2026 financial year.

That, the National Treasury issued within sixty days after adoption of this report - which I am hopefully is going to be done today - provide a comprehensive plan on the process by which government intends to directly take over R70 billion from Eskom’s loans portfolio in 2025-2026 financial years as determined by the Minister of Finance which is in addition to the R40 billion in the same year. Chairperson and hon members, we further recommended that the National Treasury and the Department of Public Enterprises together with the Minister of Electricity and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs should ensure that issues around load shedding are urgently resolved in order to unlock investment and job opportunities, restore South Africa’s fiscal credibility and improve much needed economic growth, as well as credit ratings.

Hon members we have recommended that the National Treasury and the Department of Public Enterprises should ensure that corporates and fiscal government are improved through reforms that enable the management and boards of state-owned entities to operational autonomy they require to make profit maximising decisions and eliminate political interference to enhance operational transparency and efficiency. The political interference I hope will not be misinterpreted. That National Treasury together with the Department of Public Enterprise should come with a clear plan within 60 days of the adoption of this report - which will hopefully be today - to ensure that decisive judgment is made for state-owned entities to deliver on return to investment effectively and efficiently.

Hon Chairperson, failing which, the dysfunctional state-owned enterprises should be restructured, sold off or shut down to save the taxpayers’ money. Mind you, we are antiprivatisation. We also recommended that the National Treasury and the Department of Public Enterprise should ensure that explicit and progressive guidance to state-owned entities on expected rates of return and to the distribution or reinvestment of profits is urgently established. The National Treasury together with the Eskom board and the Minister of Electricity should work out a clear plan to deal with all fiscal leakages including intensifying the fight against crime and corruption at Eskom and develop an accurate cost reflective regime.

This must be tabled in Parliament in the next budget cycle. While the committee supports government’s objective to strengthen Eskom’s balance sheet, it urges the National Treasury the Minister of Electricity, Eskom and the Department of Public Enterprises to fast track the finalisation of the unbundling of the entity into energy generation, transmission and distribution units including licensing and the board.

Moreover, the committee does not believe that privatising Eskom whose mandate is to provide a basic service to the public, will solve all the entities problems and that options such as public, private partnership, triple-p, should instead be explored.

Hon Chairperson, the National Treasury has recommended that it should together with the Department of Public Enterprise and the Minister of Electricity and with Eskom within 60 days starting from today after adoption of this report, Table a

clear plan to ensure that the financial sustainability of the entity is restored and that the entity focus on the project critical for the sustainability of the grids. We also recommended that the National Treasury, the Department of Public Enterprise and the Minister of Electricity should within 60 days of the adoption of this report, meaning today, ensure that there is a clear plan to implement the set of conditions attached to the debt relief package and Eskom should report on a timely basis to monitor progress.



That, the National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs together with the Eskom board, should within 60 days of the adoption of this report determine which municipal debt is recoverable and which is not before writing off debt to Eskom, even after complying with the site conditions that is very important. Moreover, hon Chairperson, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Salga need to ensure that all indigent households continue to receive their free electricity. That, National Treasury together with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Salga should ensure that within 90 days of the adoption of this report, municipalities develop a clear plan to make sure that the funds generated from electricity tariffs that are due to Eskom are ring fenced to pay in the entity.

Failing which the committee recommends that legislation or if needs be the Constitution be amended to enable the National Treasury to slice off monies owed by Eskom in the municipalities before transferring their equitable share.



While I conclude, Chairperson, in future the Minister of Public Enterprise, the Minister of Electricity and Eskom board should ensure that chief executive officers with the requisite qualifications, relevant experience and expertise in the electricity engineering field are appointed at Eskom, given the complex nature of the entity and the energy sector. That the committee recommends that the department of electricity should be assigned its own official Budget Vote. I therefore request the august House to adopt the Bill without amendments. Thank you. [Time expired.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just to remind hon members, it will be a very long day. The more we keep to what is expected of us, the better. So, maximum 3 minutes per declaration.



Declarations of vote:


Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, inefficient SOEs place a heavy burden on the fiscus, as public resources are diverted away from other social and infrastructure expenditure

priorities. This is again the case with this Bill. Corruption and mismanagement is at the core of Eskom’s financial problems. The elimination thereof, as well as the recovery of stolen funds, transparency, accountability and a change in the culture of nonpayment should be pursued by Eskom.



We have unfortunately seen in the past how these issues have not been prioritised by Eskom and this government. South Africans watch as witness after witness told the Zondo Commission about the scale of corruption and mismanagement within Eskom. When we, however, saw how government Ministers attacked the former CEO, Mr Andre de Ruyter, after his revelations of deep-rooted corruption within Eskom, we have little hope that this government is serious about rooting out corruption in this entity.


We do not believe that the ANC government has got the political will to truly address the concerns raised about corruption and mismanagement within Eskom. The recovery of municipal debt is of utmost importance.



We therefore welcome the committee’s recommendation that municipalities must develop a clear plan to ensure that funds generated from electricity tariffs that are due to Eskom are

ring-fenced, in order to pay Eskom. Unfortunately, we know how the vast majority of ANC-run municipalities will vehemently oppose this limit on their cash on hand, because it will greatly reduce their opportunities to enrich themselves.



The DA fully agrees with the proposal that was made by Dear South Africa, who said that the Eskom crisis must be stopped and the recommendations that they gave included a strong call for privatisation, a reduction in the amount of employees and the employment of skilled individuals, instead of the deployment of unskilled cadres, all of which will be required for Eskom to have any hope of survival. Constant bailouts, political interference and a lack of convictions remain unaddressed.



The DA’s concern that this Bill is being implemented in the absence of a larger government vision and plan, not only for the future of Eskom, but for the South African electricity industry as a whole, was echoed even by the Public Benefit Organisations PBO.


Furthermore, the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, said that numerous bailouts to Eskom have not yielded the desired results and that it remains unconvinced that the proposed

conditions will be effective this time. We fully agree with them and thus, do not support this Bill. I thank you.



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed Eskom Debt Relief Bill and we reject it for both practical and principled reasons. As the EFF, we agree that we need to recapitalise Eskom and we need to give Eskom enough money to maintain its overall generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure, complete the outstanding work in Medupe, ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moletsane and all other people who are virtual, please, ensure that you speak to the mike a bit louder, a bit slower. So, I am asking all of you out there just to ensure that you remain audible and that we follow what is being said.


Mr M S MOLETSANE: As the EFF, we agree that we need to recapitalise Eskom and we need to give Eskom enough money to maintain its overall generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure, complete the outstanding work in Medupi and Kusile power plants as soon as possible and build additional generation capacity.

However, the Bill before this House seeks to do the opposite. We want to warn all South Africans in this House today that this Bill is not going to solve any problem. If anything, it will only fast-track the national grid collapse. An unequivocal conditionality was set for Eskom that the

R260 billion allocated to Eskom’s balance sheet must not be spent on electricity generation, since the money that we are told about here today to give to Eskom is to repay the loans.


The Bill we are tabling today should be allocating money to new and additional generation, additional capacity to bring additional electricity to the grid, to protect the economy and improve our people’s livelihoods. The Bill should be allocating money to insulate essential services, such as water supply, clinics, small and medium enterprises and other essential infrastructure damages that may occur, as a result of electricity blackouts or a complete grid collapse.



We should be allocating money to both hybrid- and micro grid electricity solutions for metropolitan municipalities and strategic sectors, such as agriculture, to ensure food security. We should be allocating money to comprehensive, conditional as ... [Interjections.] ... municipalities and agree on that. We should be allocating money to attract investment and special economic zones for manufacturing their panels, but we know, there is no capacity.



We do not understand why the Minister of Public Enterprises has not resigned. He failed the people of South Africa and he must resign, so that our people can have affordable, uninterrupted, sustainable and dependable supply of electricity. The EFF rejects the proposed Eskom Debt Relief Bill. Thank you.



Mr Z MKIVA: Hon Chairperson, I rise here on behalf of the ANC to support the Eskom Debt Relief Bill. The Eskom Debt Relief Bill is a critical part of implementing government’s turnaround strategy to reduce load shedding and resolve the energy crisis in the country. We do understand the confusion and I think it’s an issue of concepts and not understanding the appropriation processes. One is talking about recapitalisation, but the problem at Eskom is a debt and we need that debt relief. Therefore, this process is about injecting resources at Eskom so that Eskom can deal with the challenges.



The Minister of Finance announced the R240 billion debt relief in the Budget Speech and this is geared at reducing the debt

liability of the entity to a manageable level. Eskom has always suggested that it is unable to deal with such a debt liability.


There are a number of critical areas which need to be highlighted in relation to why this intervention is a positive into mention to ensure the reduction of load shedding and the energy crisis in the country. This intervention by the shareholder ensures that there is a major reduction in the debt liability of Eskom, which the government guarantees.



Eskom itself was unable to deal with such a large debt liability and any default on the part of the entity would have created a sovereign debt crisis. This is a planned intervention to deal with that challenge, specifically. It is also to ensure that Eskom is a going concern through the reduction of the debt liability.



Over the past two financial years, Eskom has made a


R20 operational profit, but this was drowned out by the debt liability. Over the past financial year, Eskom spent

R1,9 billion from its own cash. The Eskom Debt Relief Bill will also ensure that Eskom will be able to fund further

maintenance from its revenue streams, to ensure that the plants are more reliable.



Eskom being a going concern, will reduce upward pressure on electricity tariffs, as the formula for calculation takes into the revenue requirement the debt service costs in as much as the entity seeks regulatory relief from the municipal debt.



This intervention by the ANC government also enables, ... [Interjections.]


I am concluding now, this intervention by the ANC government also enables the restructuring of the entity, so that it can be completed. It is for this reason that the ANC supports this particular Debt Relief Bill and we must ensure that this House approves that as soon as possible. Thank you very much.



Debate concluded.




Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.



Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Chairperson, did you note us on the virtual platform. I didn’t hear you talking about us. If you have, it’s okay.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The votes on the virtual platform were checked.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Okay, thank you, Chair.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was done, by the Table staff.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you, Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed to voting on the Votes and the Schedules to the Appropriation Bill, I wish to remind you of the following: ... [Interjections.] I know, the day is long, so people forget.

So, please be reminded of the following: Where there is a call for a division, a Vote shall be carried and we shall proceed to the next Vote. Where a party wishes to object to a Vote,

that objection shall be noted and there will be no need for a division.



Thirdly, a delegate wishing to call for a division must draw the attention of the Chair to that fact and in terms of the Rules, a call for a division must be supported by at least four delegates, as members know. Delegates who might not be in the waiting room and outside of the Chamber, will be given for the first Vote, two minutes to join the House and 15 seconds in respect of the Votes thereafter. No delegate shall be allowed to access the House while voting is in progress. Once the question is put, delegates who wish to cast their votes must do so by using the raise-your-hand function.



Delegates must keep their hands raised until the voting closes. Procedural staff shall tally the votes. The host shall lower all hands after every Vote. If a delegate is disconnected whilst voting takes place, the vote of the delegate shall be ascertained and the record shall be amended accordingly.



Lastly, a delegate who wishes to make a Declaration of Vote must use the raise-your-hand function or raise his or her

hand. Once recognised, the delegate should indicate the name of his and or her party, and do the Declaration of the Vote.



Mr I NTSUBE: Chair, it is just a note to you that there is an indication that some members, special delegates, were removed from the platform. Can you check on that and maybe advise the Table staff to accept Whips, so that they can monitor those who want to vote double standards here?


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will ask the Table staff to pay attention to the issue. We are sure that it is a fairly straightforward matter.


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, I rise on Rule 69(1), which says that I can raise a point of order and that I can speak to the general substance of the point of order. I don’t have to quote the Rule. You must read your book, my ... [Inaudible.] Sorry, young hon member. The hon member finished off his comment saying, to make sure that there is going to be no double-standard voting here.



That is an inference that there will be cheating or illegality on this side of the members of the House. That’s a disparaging remark and I ask that he withdraw, please Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I just want to remind you again that the day is going to be long. Please, don’t make it longer. Please, don’t make it longer.






(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)




Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put.



Declarations of vote:

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson of the Council, my apologies for not switching on my video. We are loadshedding this side.

Allow me not to switch on my video, Chair. Thank you. The EFF rejects the proposed Vote for the Presidency. We reject the budget for the Presidency as since he took office, the number of unemployed people in this country have increased. So as the number of discouraged workers and a number of people who are not in education, training, or any employment.


Mr Cyril Ramaphosa has demonstrated incapacity and incompetence in resolving many of the crisis confronting South Africans and has been persistent in his attempts to avoid genuine accountability and transparency. We reject the budget

of the Presidency who has failed to appropriate land without compensation. As the EFF, we have on several occasions stated that we want the Constitution to acknowledge that land like mineral resources and water, all natural resources and the common heritage belonging to all of our people, must be returned to our people and must benefit South Africans. And that we must expropriate all land and place it under the custodianship of a democratic state, as this is the most practical way to address the land question. We want our land for those who were dispossessed and were not compensated.

Therefore, we cannot compensate if we expropriate land.




We also reject the budget of the President who has failed to decisively stabilise and revitalise state-owned entities in South Africa. Mr Cyril Ramaphosa has failed to lead South Africa in all respects. As the EFF, we refuse to legitimise his regime of corruption, anti-constitutionalism and rolling electricity blackouts. Therefore, we reject this budget with the contempt it deserves. Thank you.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, fellow South Africans, in the past five years, the ANC Presidency did not change into a new dawn for South Africa as we were promised, nor into a leadership ensuring political stability and hope. To the

contrary, this Presidency is known for 110 commissions plans, forums, war rooms and councils, with more negative than positive impact on the economy at large, as well as on every citizen.



The prime example is the Zondo Commission Report that cost taxpayers R1 billion, had 1 438 people implicated, but here we are, one year later, and not one substantial arrest has been made. Phala Phala and the non-alignment on the Russia and Ukraine war seems destined to re-establish South Africa’s pariah status. A DA presidency will be decisive, enable innovation, economic growth and ensure job creation as we are doing where we govern. Where we govern, our leadership act swiftly to the betterment of the people, and not to the betterment of the political party. This was evident when Alan Winde led a delegation to the United States to make sure that South Africa does not get kicked out of African Growth and Opportunity Act, Agoa. We cannot support this budget.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): Thank you very much Chairperson, and recognition for the MECs that are in the House, in particular from Gauteng province and all in the platform. Assembled in a truly people’s congress at Kliptown in the dusty streets of Soweto in 1955, the people of South

Africa across all races, social classes and religious affiliation, proclaimed among others that: “the people shall govern, and no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of the people”. 39 years later, on

27 April 1994, they went out in their millions to cast their vote for the first democratically elected government, with the overwhelming majority supporting the ANC. A democratic mandate that they renewed in successive elections until the last elections in 2019 that elected President Cyril Ramaphosa as President.



We stand here today as the ANC to remind all and sundry that the ANC is not governing this country by default, but on the basis of the will of the democratic majority. The President, as head of government and national executive, has the democratic mandate to lead, oversee, co-ordinate, direct the transformative policies of government and act as a point of conduct with the international community in pursuance of a strategic goal of just equitable and peaceful world order.



In his inaugural address as President of South Africa in 2018, President Ramaphosa committed, among others, to intensify the fight against corruption and crime, reconfigure the national departments, consult with all political parties and civil

societies on major policy decisions, intensify African unity and integration, and continue the agenda of placing South Africa at the beachhead of the just equitable and peaceful global order. There can be no doubt that today our government enjoys improved coherence across all departments and three spheres, improved standing in the continental, international, political and trade nations. Most importantly, transparency and improved relations with civil society and opposition parties that are turning and tossing here in this House today.



Today the world and South Africans can see intensified efforts against corruption and crime through daily arrest of criminal syndicates and uncovering them, unmasking them, for who they are. It is on this basis that I stand here today on behalf of the ANC to declare our undivided support to this Vote. We support the Vote of the Presidency, as the ANC.



Division demanded.




The Council divided.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament-put:




Declarations of vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for Parliament. We reject the budget of Parliament, which fails to fulfil its constitutional mandate of representing the interests of our people at large, as well as the interests of provinces in the national spheres of government. We reject the budget of Parliament, which has been unable to fulfil its primary responsibility of holding Mr Cyril Ramaphosa accountable and instead chooses to protect him for the role which he continues to play in destroying South Africa.



Chairperson, Parliament is completely failing to play its oversight role. As a Member of Parliament, we believe they are answerable to the ANC rather than electorates. We reject the budget of Parliament, which continues to give credence and legitimacy to incompetence, failure and corruption which constitute the ultimate betrayal of the people of South Africa. This Parliament, Chair, has offered nothing in terms of resolving the problems confronting our society at large. It has also failed to initiate or prepare legislation and there exists no plan to build state capacity.

As the EFF we once again reiterate our call that Mr Cyril Ramaphosa must resign now. With all the allegations of corruption, with all the allegations of maladministration, with all allegations of women abuse in his Phalaphala farm, it is evident that he cannot lead South Africa, therefore he must resign. We, as the EFF rejects this budget of Parliament with the contempt it deserves. Thank you.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, perhaps the EFF mixed up the budget vote declarations, on that point. I would like it is about the President, but anyway. Hon Chair, this speech is addressed at the South African residents watching today, not you lot. Those watching today on television, TV, right now or perhaps those who will see this fine declaration on social media later. My fellow South Africans, it is common course that the Constitution of South Africa forms the basis of our democracy, and that Parliament defends that Constitution.


I know that you all look at Parliament with a jaundiced eye, wondering what on earth we do here. You see the shouting, fighting, childish behaviour and you shake your heads. Many of these walls have acted dishonourably and should be sanctioned for doing so. It is in this spirit of defiance that I stand

today on behalf of the DA and reject with contempt the budget that the ANC will no doubt blindly agree to.



Why? My opposition to this budget is that it represents a steady erosion of the budget allocated to Parliament. I oppose this budget because Parliament requested R4,3 billion to do its job properly and received R3,8 billion, some R500 million rand shy of what it needs.


I reject this budget because it effectively rejects the recommendations of the Zondo Commission because no work is being done. If the Da controlled this budget, we would invest in the core business programme. The DA argues that this programme is the most important as it forms the intellectual backbone of Parliament.



It is the foundation of knowledge that would help this House, which should primarily be focused on reviewing, amending or creating legislation that will find proactive and effective, practical and effective purchase on the ground and amongst our people.



The DA would hire eager and fiery young researchers determined to hold the executive accountable rather than the minions who

simply summarise documents and make a couple of inane comments that the members know anyway. The DA would use that research to change committee meetings from charming engagements to tough inquisitorial hearings with structure and purpose where no quarter is offered or given.



So, while our secretary is calling out for help, the ANC comrades for votes in favour. It does appear that this ANC is quite content to let this fine institution slide down a slippery slope into the insignificant status of a lapdog to the exam active. It is time to protect the people of South Africa from this non statistic organisation and restore true constitutional purpose of Parliament.




Ilanga liyashona, ANC. Siyabangena!





I thank you.




Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, hon Brauteseth, I feel shame for you because you are alone in that corner as the ANC we are not alone, we are not prepared to follow that ignorance that you have taken, you have chosen. Chairperson, Parliament is an

arm of the state which plays a central role in advancing our constitutional democracy.



It is in Parliament where laws are developed and amended. Parliament is a tribune of the people. And since the democratic government of the ANC has advanced the transformative legislation and advanced the people’s interests.


The Budget Vote No 2 plays a critical role in ensuring that Parliament has an institution that has sufficient capacity to execute its constitutional role. The oversight and accountability functions of Parliament requires strategic support to enhance the ability, the ability of representatives of the people who execute their mandates in Parliament.



Hon Chairperson, the current financial year budget includes an allocation for the restoration of Parliament, which has had a detrimental effect on the efficient, and effective functioning of Parliament. Though the burning of the Parliament was tragic, our efforts for restoration should be guided by the principle of rebuilding for inclusion.

Our Parliament should be accessible for persons with disabilities and should represent the heritage and diversity of our nation. And then, Chair, we are confident that the process that is already under way to restore the Parliament will be executed efficiently.



As the ANC we welcome the fact that Parliament continues to obtain a clean audit which represents which represents good governance in the part of the of Parliament’s administration management of public funds is critical and Parliament is prudent in this regard. Parliament is expected to be involved in global matters through various multilateral bodies, parliamentary unions, and bilateral engagements.


Hon Chairperson, this enables the South Africa Parliament ... [Interjection.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please conclude, hon member.




Ms D G MAHLANGU: ... on resolution of various global challenges and to advance developmental goals for the better African world. I thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.



Declarations of vote:

Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, I am requesting to keep my video off because of network. The EFF rejects the proposed budget for Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We reject the budgets of this department as it fails to perform its oversight role on the functionality and good governance that is expected from all spheres of government.

The EFF rejects the budget of a department that has no support base or monitoring tools for municipalities, and repeatedly received this current audit opinions in the municipalities such as Joe Morolong Local Municipality in the Northern Cape for the past seven years.


Local government continues to be categorised by dysfunctionality, financial mismanagement, councillor and administrator instability and crumbling municipal infrastructure. We see the dysfunctionality of these municipalities through the service delivery protests held

every day in this country. We note the slow pace in the response in these matters. The EFF rejects this budget. Thank you.


Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Chairperson it is hon De Bruyn and there is no declaration from the FF Plus.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I couldn’t hear that, if you can just please repeat hon member.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Du Toit is unfortunately not available. There will be no declaration from the FF Plus.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, would you like to speak? No, thank you very much. We will proceed to hon Hadebe from the IFP.



Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, though we had never indicated that we wanted to make any declaration, but as the opportunity has presented itself, I want to say that on behalf of the IFP that, section 154 of the Constitution mandates that government supports and strengthen municipal capacity to manage their own affairs, exercise their powers and perform their allocated functions.

However, the National Treasury has advised defaulting municipalities that if they want their Eskom debt scraped, they have to collect electricity revenue from consumers and cut off those consumers who default. Hon Chairperson, this ultimatum clearly indicates the lack of understanding our government has for the circumstances in municipalities with high numbers of indigent households, especially considering that local government only received 9,1% of the percentage share allocation from the national fiscus which has proven to be utterly insufficient for municipalities to deliver. Hon Chairperson that is as far as the IFP can contribute in declaring, but we support the Budget Vote. Thank you.



Mr C F B SMIT: Municipalities throughout the ANC-run provinces are a hot mess with no hope of any improvements under the ANC government. Section 139 interventions are a little too late, tremendously costly and highly ineffective, as it is abused by the ANC to manipulate political outcomes instead of fixing the problems. The District Development Model, DDM is a nonstarter to begin with, as it will never pass a test in the Constitutional Court and is clearly an attempt by the ANC national government to regain control in provinces and municipalities it lost and to control the budgets as that is what they are actually after, the money.

Contrary to that, the DA-run municipalities have clean audits and that is clearly shown in the audit report that came out recently, where 19 municipalities in the Western Cape have got clean audits. The DA will make sure that we get rid of cadre deployment, and we employ fit for purpose people to run our municipalities and make sure that there is accountability and that the integrated development plan, IDP process is based on the will of the people and not the plan that is developed somewhere and then forced onto the communities. We will not support this useless ANC budget Thank you.



Mr T S C DODOVU Since we started this session this morning ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just a second hon Dodovu. Yes, on what point are you rising hon member?



Ms N NDONGENI: I am sorry Chair. Hon Smit said, “it is a useless.” Is it parliamentary?






The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, that is not a point of order

Ms N NDONGENI: [Inaudible] ... ANC is useless. Is that okay? Okay, if it is okay, then DA is useless.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, hon memebrs ...




Mr J J LONDT: If the shoe fits, stand up.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, the day is going to be long. So, don’t make it longer. Hon Dodovu please proceed.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Since we started this session this morning, we have listened to the resolute and steadfast objections to anything that the ANC has tabled, to resolve the challenges facing our country. This unholy alliance and coalition of collaborators and accomplices is comprised of the ultra-right- wing parties led by the DA and the FF Plus on the one side, and the ultra-left-wing parties led by the EFF. We expect them to continue their collaboration of opposition throughout these Budget Votes today. As the ANC we shall not go down to their levels of useless pessimism and negativity, because they will beat us with experience.



Hon Chair, throughout this Budget Vote of this department which aims to effectively pursue initiatives and schemes that

foster development and provision of economic opportunities in our rural regions. Currently, the process of urbanisation in our country has given rise to a growing gap between urban and rural areas. This divide has led to various issues including spatial fragmentation, racial and social divisions, inadequate public services and infrastructure that is struggling economies.



The department recognises that these challenges need to be attended to by prioritising rural development through the allocated budget. Several districts and metropolitan municipalities have brought attention to the obstacles hindering the implementation of economic recovery plans by municipalities and we need to attend to these.



On coalition, a framework is required to provide guidance to political parties and independent councillors regarding the establishment of durable government to ensure that they achieve their own objectives. Hon Chair, we are saying as the ANC that this budget presents us with a new community works problem approach that aims to reduce dependence and fragmentation that we have seen in previous terms.

We are also saying that issues around climate change also got to be addressed and they are fully encapsulated. We are saying the National Disaster Management Centre has to undertake a comprehensive review of the National Disaster Management Framework. In that sense, hon Chair, we are saying that we support this particular budget because the new Minister and the deputies are here to ensure that they bring about stability, and we must not listen to this useless oppositions that keep on coming and the rendering asking effective in terms of what you have to do. In that sense as the ANC, we support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much hon Chair.



Division demanded.



The Council divided:




AYES-35 : Bartlett, M; Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Cele,Z L I; Dliso, V J, Dodovu, T S C; Konza, N; Khumalo, M; Lekganyane, N M; Lucas, S E; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D;Mamabolo, J B; Mamaregane, M L;Mamorobela,T P; Mkiva, Z; Mmoiemang, K M; Mncube, B ;Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L;Mvoko, M; Ndou,A J D; Nchabeleng, M E, M E; Ndongeni, N; Ngwenya, W; Nkosi,N E; Nyambi, A J; Ntsube, I; Rayi, I; Rosho,M Z; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S; Thomo, T S.

NOES-20 : Aucamp, W A S; Badenhorst, F J; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Dlamini, M; Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, S; Londt, J J;Luthuli, SA; Michalakis, G; Mokause, M O; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai, K ; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Smit, C F B; Visser, C.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote 4 – Government Communication Information System – put.



Declarations of vote:


Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, it is Mokause. The EFF rejects the Budget Vote of Communications and Digital Technologies. We believe that this ANC-led government, which does not encourage and support community knowledge and information, has failed in this department. We say so because across the country, community radio stations have been closed due to lack of funding. Those who are charged with responsibility to fund and monitor these stations failed, and as a result led to nonaccountability and closure of these stations.



Some stations remain open but with no funding. For example: Kurara FM in the Northern Cape is one; and Setsoto FM in the

Free State, is another. These are community stations who are struggling without funding. People working in these stations remain unpaid and not supported by those charged with this responsibility. This government keeps a blind eye to such developments.



These community radio stations majority of times remain the only source of information to rural areas. These communities remain uninformed with all the happenings of this country. As the EFF, we believe that these actions by the ruling party are deliberate so that they are kept in power - communities must not be aware of the corruption happening within the government led by the ANC.


Therefore, they are orchestrating these types of actions by those charged to fund these radio stations, not to fund them, so that our communities remain in the dark and continue voting for them. That, alone, is a crime against humanity. We therefore reject this Budget Vote of Communications and Digital Technologies with the contempt it deserves. Thank you.



Ms L C BEBEE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Smit, don’t ever say that the ANC is useless, because the DA is useless. The ANC supports Budget Vote 4. This year, we are

celebrating the Youth Day and we continue to celebrate the entire month of June. We observed a youth month under the theme, Accelerating Youth Economic Emancipation for Sustainable Future.



It is widely acknowledged that the youth of our country is confronted with a number of challenges, primarily relating to unemployment, amongst other things. In efforts to draw more young people into the economy, our government has initiated various youth development and empowerment initiatives to support young people. These range from employment opportunities, formal education and training, learnerships and internships, as well as support for youth entrepreneurship.



In staying true to its mandate, to provide timely, accurate and reliable information to the people of the country, the Government Communication and Information System plays a pivotal role in ensuring that no one is left behind. Young people in Shitsivhe Village in Venda and Swayimane in KwaZulu- Natal or even Lusikisiki in the Eastern Cape, amongst others, should be afforded the same opportunity and equal access to information on these important programmes, similarly to their peers in the big cities, such as Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban.

Hon Chairperson, to this end, the ANC welcomes that over the medium term, the GCIS will be conducting activations across the country that entail direct interactions with citizens, mostly in areas with specific local languages. Its key activities include printing pamphlets and information brochures, advertising on social media, as well as the use of radio and television stations.



Vukuzenzele plays an integral part in rendering poor communication services as it is only newspaper dedicated to publishing on government’s key priorities. Therefore, we support the printing and distribution of 10,2 million copies per year, which will culminate in the allocation of

R63 million over the medium term.




While we believe that more financial and nonfinancial support needs to go to the MDDA in order for it to expand on its mandate, we welcome that in the medium term the entity will be able to support 64 community broadcast projects, 18 community projects and small commercial media, print and digital projects through grant funding. Funding for these projects is set to the amount of R116 million over the MTEF period. I thank you, Chairperson.

Question put.







Vote 4 – GCIS agreed to.




Vote No 5 – Home Affairs— put.




Declarations of Vote:

Ms M DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, we reject the budget of home affairs in particular because of the wavering of the Zimbabwean exemption permit living Zimbabweans in this country dangling for another six months. Facing challenges of tailing bank cards, drivers’ licences and having to spend a lot of money on waver application.



There is no decisive effort to give aid to asylum seekers and refugees in this country.



The immigration services of the department is failing through system failure, technical issues which is a frustrating process due to unfaithful staff, backlogs and system failure. The list of grievances which include the long list of queues, the system being offline and a handful of people being

assisted. Meaning repeated visits to the local department before any assistance can be received.



Hon Chairperson, it is also concerning that the procurement process of the information technology, IT, systems and how it is handled at home affairs especially with an international company that was mandated to install an automated biometric identification system and could not deliver on its mandate.


Hon Chairperson, for these reasons the EFF decisively rejects the Budget Vote for the Department of Home Affairs. Thank you.



Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Chairperson, the budget we are supporting should reflect at its heart the values and principles of the department by delivering the state of services to those utilising the system to a measurable scale of satisfaction. There is very little practical evidence that the Department of Home Affairs is capable or interested in providing the services to all those entitled to its services.


Staff shortages, budget cuts and regular network failure are causing long blocked queues outside their offices across our country. Fraud and corruption have become an endemic and natured within the system. Whistle blowers are thrown to the

wolves preventing sound financial management and the regression of service delivery to South African citizens.



The Department of Home Affairs has become the department of lame excuses where every suggested solution is greeted by a string of obstacles and more excuses. From network failures, the rolling blackouts to the burning of Parliament even. Even constitutional court orders are ignored by the Department of Home Affairs.



The only positive aspect of the Department of Home Affairs is if there ever was one it has a perfect example of the incompetent ANC governance. Failing to sit with those seeking their services on a daily basis. On behalf of those that had to spend countless hours, days and years waiting for an Identity, travel, registration, birth or death document, the DA categorically rejects this budget. Thank you.


Ms A D MALEKA: Hon Chairperson, the ANC’s support for the adoption of Budget Vote No 5 – Home Affairs and its entities is informed by the engagements the Select Committee on Justice and Security had with the department on its annual performance plan, APPs. Among other things we support the budget allocation for programmes that will address the challenges of

long queues in our home affairs offices. The challenges of network connectivity and the modernisation of home affairs offices to fast-track services to our people.


We also support the budget allocation to the Border Management Authority to further execute its mandate of border management and control and those address the challenges of illegal migration.



We further support the transfers of the budget to the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, in particularly for the preparation for the 2024 national elections to ensure free and fair elections. As well as the transfers of the Government Printing Works. The ANC supports the adoption of the Budget Vote No 5 – Home Affairs. Thank you.



Division demanded.




The Council divided.








Vote No 5 – Home Affairs agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation - put.




Declarations of vote:


Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the EFF if rejects the Budget Vote for International Relations and Co-operation. The idea of relative autonomy of subnational governments, which is embedded in the South Africa’s 1996 Constitution has remained largely underdeveloped, owing to factors such as inherent ambiguities in the constitutional design, a strong centralising echoes on the part of the ruling party and generally weak provincial capacity. Consequently, relations between national and domestic countries have only focused on technical matters and not focused on systematic changes. There is no direct indication or effort from the ruling party to eradicate the imperialist interference to make financial and political systems independent from former colonialists.



We reject the budget of a department that does not address any of the insurgencies faced by countries in this continent that have vast mineral resources such as Mali, Nigeria and Somalia. The silence of the department was worrying when the Ugandan president signed the Anti-Homosexuality Bill into law. We reject a budget of a department that makes us vulnerable to imperialist agenda compromising the autonomy of this country.

The EFF calls for an independent united states Africa, one currency, one president. Seeing that this will not be possible with the ANC government, we wait for the decisive victory of the EFF government. We reject this budget.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, you know, when they call our party useless ... Was that the word? When they call our party useless we can laugh about it because we know it’s not true, but when the ANC gets called useless, you get upset because you know we have touched a nerve. The ANC was too scared to debate this vote, removing it very quietly from this schedule. They do not want to debate how this ANC government is placing jobs at risk because of their flimsy foreign policy, most notably its effect on the African Growth and Opportunity Act Agoa, agreement.



The ANC’s support for Russia is costing ordinary people their jobs and has a direct effect on food prices when people are already starving. South Africa’s foreign policy should not be influenced by the ideology of a political party. It should be rooted in human rights and the basic principles of our Constitution. That should be the anchor of our foreign policy, which should give clarity and certainty and encourage trust in our foreign partners and with our foreign partners. Under the

ANC, we no longer have a foreign policy anchored in the respect for democracy and human rights, and the DA government will ensure that we return to our constitutional values. We cannot support this budget. Thank you.



Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, we affirm our support for the 2023 budget tabled by the Department of International Relations and Co-operation. Despite challenging economic conditions, we commend the department for its commitment to South Africa, to Africa and to a better and more peaceful world. Now, we follow the nonaligned movement of seeking peace. We are not warmongers. We would rather die for many things than kill for many things, unlike other people who served in the armies and have killed before. We encourage closer co-ordination between government and business to promote our economic interests and equal partnership in global economic affairs. We welcome the budget and appreciate the work done by our foreign missions.

Thank you, Chairperson.




Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 7 – National School of Government – put – agreed to.

Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).




Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put.



Declarations of vote:


Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the EFF reject the proposed budget for National Treasury. Chairperson, the EFF since inception stood at the forefront of the struggle for state development and the building of our country to its fullest capacity so much as that the development of the state stands enshrined in the seven cardinal pillars of the EFF for the state is well placed to drive their economical and industrial development of its people.



The government has failed to create jobs, increased skills levels or tackle poverty. We live with last income of inequalities. Corruption remains a serious challenge as it crippled the ability of state to pursue its commitments to economic development by draining resources away from economic development.



Loss of revenue has had tremendous consequences for the economy, including negative impact on economic growth. The EFF rejects this vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, it is alarming to note the crippling up of the servicing cost of the sovereign debt over the years. One of the key risk that we face is the fact that a portion of this debt is foreign currency denominated debt and the servicing cost of this debt is interestingly linked to the rail exchange rate.



The exchange rate is a measure of the demand for our currency. A demand that is impacted by disastrous international relations policies. A demand that is impacted by bad policy decisions on race–based employment regulations. A demand that is impacted by regressions into the race classifications of the apartheid regime. A demand that is impacted by the inability of our government to provide electricity while still clinging into a state monopoly on the generation of electricity. A demand that is impacted by policy uncertainty and the ongoing direct trade to property ownership rights compounded by the breakdown of the rule of law.



The Treasury is seen first-hand the tailing of the tax collection windfalls that was life safe to this government over the past few years that they are now experience the impact of not using those windfalls to reduce our debt burden

and choosing rather to spend more money living for the moment instead of taking a longer term view.



Let us look at the biggest Administration Appropriation, the equitable share, a large proportion of which goes towards the Public Wage Bill in provinces and municipalities. Organised local government in the form of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, together with provinces keep calling for a fully view of equitable share and ... [Inaudible.] ... the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, a constitutional body and the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO. A creation of Money Bills Act agree that it should be changed, even the Select Committee on Appropriation unanimously has added its voice to this. But today, in spite of all the agreement that this budget is not properly been applied, the governing party, who consider themselves to be the ruling party will look to the executives and rubber stamp this Appropriation.



I urge you colleagues, as we divide to vote on Treasury’s allocation to oppose this vote in solidarity with the provinces who we say we represent and in solidarity with the people of South Africa who we say we represent. I urge you to vote no to this item. Thank you, Chair. The DA also calls for a division.

Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, the ANC is fully in support of this Budget Vote for the National Treasury because the National Treasury Department plays a very key important role in the transformation of our country. In fact, our Treasury is regarded as one of the most progressive ones in the world not just in Africa. People fly in to come and bench mark with the work that we are doing because there is efficacy in our National Treasury. There is professionalism and there is precision on each and every thing that we do.



We respond to the socioeconomic conditions of our country and we oversee the macro and micro economic policy trajectory which is very progressive because it seeks to address the historical imbalances. Those people who referred to our policies as unprogressive are blind-sided because they are not being objective to the fact that the majority of the South Africans were excluded for more than 300 years in the economy of this country and the Treasury Department is on course and I can tell you that the master plan in a form of Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is actually helping us to turnaround the fortunes of our country. The fact that the National Revenue Fund of our country is in a sound place, it is because of the management tools of our own National Treasury. Don’t laugh because the tax collections in our

country are very healthy and there has been an improvement from one financial year to the other.



Chairperson, I therefore wish to rise on behalf of the ANC to say that we support this particular budget for the National Treasury. Thank you very much.



Division demanded.



The Council divided:







Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting)



Vote No 9 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put.




Declarations of vote:


Ms S B LEHIHI: Hon Chair, the EFF rejects the budget for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. We have on this and other platforms always maintained that there is no monitoring of service delivery and this is why it will take 20 years to give our people water, despite all ANC Presidents’ promises.

We have, for a period of 10 years, said that there is no evaluation of government programmes to ensure that departments do what they plan according to the budget allocated and our people, indeed, are receiving services.



And we have said, since ... [Inaudible.] ... that we must close the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME. We said there is no need to have a Minister of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. We need to do away with this Ministry.


As a start, we were correct in 2014, we were correct in 2019 and we are still correct even today.


We need we need to reduce the number of Ministries because we still have Ministries that are not adding value but are only used to manage squabbles inside the ANC.



We must go back to one Ministry for Education. We must combine Social Development and Health, we must combine Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation.



The EFF rejects the budget. Thank you, Chair.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon members, this declaration, as the one before it, is addressed to my fellow South Africans. This department is a field of dreams department, this department books a good game, but unfortunately ... [Inaudible.] ...else.



If there is a Ministry that is rich on policy but poverty stricken on implementation, it is this one. If there is a Ministry that is useless, it is this one. What does this Ministry actually plan?



There are already government plans to be implemented by each Ministry. Ostensibly, this Ministry monitors what other Ministries are doing, but for what purpose?


Does the country really need a Minister and Deputy Minister to watch what other Ministers are doing? Why not just an administrative unit in the Presidency to do this?



What about evaluation? Ostensibly, this means that this Ministry assesses whether other Ministries are performing or not and then they report to the President to take appropriate action. But the reality is that Ministries misfire every year and the Presidency does nothing.

The end result is that the DPME is an obedient poodle rather than an aggressive watchdog, making sure that the ANC agenda trumps the interests of the people.


Now, this centralist Stalinist ideology behind controlling everything might be a Soviet works dream. But as we saw from 1989 onwards, it has an incredibly short shelf life.



The DA has advocated for the principle of decentralisation, whereby local and provincial governments that are proven to be competent should be enabled to take the lead role of planning and implementation in areas of concurrent competence with the necessary management authority and resources from the national fiscus in order to better meet the needs of local communities.



But, of course, we know the DPME, the Minister and the Deputy Minister would rather be dragging through a field of broken glass than acknowledge a good DA idea.



Finally, Chairperson, it is often said: Show me your budget and I will show you your priorities. The priorities required from this department are not evident and therefore, the DA cannot support the budget. I thank you.

Mr I NTSUBE: Hon Chairperson, the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, 2019-24 is the locus of the implementation of the electoral mandate given to the government.


The ANC manifesto is the programme that South Africans in their majority have supported as the representation of the aspirations. As a governing party and the state it serves as the responsibility of ensuring that the electoral mandate is implemented.



Through Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation Ministry in the Presidency, government is able to ensure priorities are planned for and ensure that progress is monitored and evaluated.



Monitoring and evaluation is critical function to ensure effective policy implementation and to ensure that the quality of expenditure is achieved. It enhances it enhances accountability in the public services and enable intervention by the President and the Cabinet.



Monitoring policy implementation enhances the ability of the executive authority and administrative authority to respond to the challenges having impact on the programme implementation.

The Auditor-General, AG, and the Public Service Commission, PSC, and other statutory bodies have identified weaknesses which require strengthening such as compliance with the public service and weaknesses in planning and accountability.



We are confident with the continued resourcing of the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, accountability in the public service will be enhanced and through effective planning all pressing matters and strategic priorities will be responded to.


The ANC has prioritized monitoring and evaluation due to the identification of the weaknesses in the implementation of policies which we have identified as a Penial Programme.



Despite the challenges, progress has been made in multiple areas of social and economic service provision.


As the ANC we are confident that through the Ministry, our government will ensure that it achieves its MTSF targets through effective planning and programme implementation.

We welcome the strategic focus department in ensuring that priorities are adequately planned for and budgeted for by the National Treasury.


As the ANC we declare our support to the appropriation funds of the Budget Vote 9, Chairperson.


We will not only ... [Inaudible.] ... in 2024 we’ll be reclaiming Western Cape as our strategic province for the ANC. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Vote 9 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation agreed to.



Vote 10 – Public Enterprises put.




Declarations of vote:

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed Budget Vote of Public Enterprises. Corruption and incompetence in the government of the ANC is continuing to run down state- owned enterprises, SOEs in South Africa. Tax is constantly increasing, unemployment rate is increasing, our roads are in extreme bad conditions, public transport sector is falling apart, and taxi owners and drivers are constantly fighting and killing each other for the small bread available because the

ANC-led government is not giving support and not creating an environment of Ubuntu.



Transnet is part of a long list of SOEs that have been systematically run down by the ruling party through corruption, incompetence and sheer disregard for basic principle, financial management. Chairperson, year in and year out, Transnet has suffered financial losses because of poor management and because of political interference by the ruling party aimed at rendering all SOEs inefficient. Under the watch Pravin Jamnadas Gordhan, Eskom was run to the ground, Denel and SA Airways have been decimated and are a shadow of their former self.



As it is the EFF that is going to save Eskom when we take over government come 2024. It is the EFF which is going to save all state entities when we take over power in 2024. As the EFF, we reject this Budget Vote with the contempt it deserves. Thank you, Chair.


Mr M NHANHA: Hon Chairperson, hon members, at the risk of being threatened with violence again, hon members, the less said about the Department of Public Enterprises, the better and the sooner it closes shop, the better. That IFP is listed

as objecting to this Budget Vote, it should be proof enough to the governing party that this department is not worth approval. This department is not worthy of us approving its budget. In the past hon members, I made a point in this this Chamber that you have a department with a staff complement of little over two hundred, yet it is expected to oversee on an average SOEs that each have a staff complement of more than 3000 and a combined budget which dwarfs that of the shareholder representative.



From the onset, this was a recipe for failure. The Department of Public Enterprises portfolio of SOEs is, as mentioned by hon Mokause, includes Eskom, Transnet, SAA, SA Express, Denel, Alexkor and Safcol, probably with the exception of Safcol.

These portfolio of state-owned companies are on their knees due to various factors, but all under the watch of the Department of Public Enterprises. Based on the poor performance of Department of Public Enterprises, the DA cannot support Budget Vote 10. Thank you and we call for a division, Chairperson.



Mr Z MKIVA: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the Appropriation Bill and the Budget Vote 8, since it is aimed at undertaking multiple reforms to address the deterioration of

the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, its operational and financial performance and the increasing burden they pose on the fiscal. To be sure, deficiencies in SOEs service delivery, especially in electricity as well as ports and rail network provisions combined with corruption scandals in procurement and administration linked to the state capture, have been a source of discontent and thus lead to demands for reform. As such Policy Vote 8 is geared towards pursuing a combination of reforms to improve the feeble financial health and operational performance of our SOEs.



In the energy sector, a critical mass of reforms include the unbundling of Eskom into three separate divisions responsible for generation, transmission and distribution and the amendments to the Electricity Pricing Policy and the Electricity Regulation Act. As regards the unbundling of Eskom, which is the remit of the Department of Public Enterprises, the aim of Policy Vote 8 is to operationalise the national transmission company of South Africa by obtaining a licence to operate National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa obtained lenders consent on transmission debt and appoint the board of directors to the NTCE SA.

In the Aviation Sector, Policy Vote 8 intends to finalise the sale of the government's majority stake in SAA as part of the strategic equity partnership following the approval of the sale by the Competition Commission so that the transaction can proceed forward. In the Mining Sector, Policy Vote 8 will conduct a study to determine the optimal shareholding structure for Alexkor. As part of Alexkor turnaround strategy, the study will consider the current market characteristics of the diamond mining industry in relation to government’s developmental agenda.



In the transport sector, Chairperson, a key priority of Policy Vote 8 is to enable third party access to the rail network by private operators, while the network itself will remain owned by the state, or rather by government. In short, third party access aims to address inefficiencies in the rail network in the short term, while simultaneously crowding in private investment and entering into partnerships to grow revenue and market share in target sectors.



Chairperson, hon Mokause, supported by hon Nhanha, have been saying the same thing over and over again. I do not know maybe this is a clear demonstration of incapacity on their part and on the part of the parties that they represent. They cannot

even prepare things that are different. They sound like a broken record. You are saying the same things you were saying here yesterday. Your declaration is the same, you are wasting the time you are wasting a useful time in addressing the real matters of the national question. The ANC supports this Budget Vote Chairperson, thank you very much.



Division demanded.



Question put.







Vote 10 – Public Enterprises accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.



Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration– put.




Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.



Declaration(s) of vote:


Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chair, my apologies for not opening my video, I’ve got poor network coverage due to load shedding.

Chairperson, as the EFF we reject the budget of the department which on several occasions being compromised as civil servants conducting business with the state. This department on many occasions has failed to monitor various government as we still have many vacancies in key positions and effectiveness performance management in various sectors. Thank you very much, Chair.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chair and hon members, Public Service and Administration forms an essential aspect of any society. It is literally the frontline with South Africans who grow increasingly frustrated with a kakistocratic behaviour they enjoy, as opposed to the lofty ideals of Batho Pele. This department is notorious for the inefficient and ineffective use of resources within the department. Corruption, mismanagement and irregularities in the allocation of resources have undermined the integrity of the department and have led to poor service delivery. In fact, this is how the budget department spends its budget: R502 million on very important person, VIP, security; R387 million per year on the salaries of 600 support staff; R20 million per year for luxury international travel; and R15 million per year for generators, free water and electricity. That is nearly R1 billion per year on luxury purchases for our ANC Ministers and Deputy

Ministers, not to mention the 97 mansions occupied in Cape Town and Pretoria also valued at nearly R1 billion.



The DA on the other hand, would incentives the reporting of kakistocratic behaviour and ensure that there would be sanctions for public servants who do not perform adequately or engage in corrupt and unethical behaviour. The DA would focus on ethics training as an essential element in promoting ethical behaviour and professionalism amongst public servants. The DA would ensure clear guidelines and frameworks to ensure that ethics training is relevant, effective and tailored to the specific needs of various Public Service departments.

Under the current ANC regime an overview of financial misconduct in the Public Service for the 2021-22 financial year revealed that 522 disciplinary cases relate to the financial misconduct were reported across the Public Service and have resulted in a staggering loss of R1,2 billion to the state.



Furthermore, according to the report, national departments accounted for R1 billion of this loss, while provincial departments count for R238 million of this loss. What is even more unsettling is that a meagre R6 million out of

R1,2 billion has been recovered by the effective departments.

This government, the comrades here, are seemingly happy with this because they will support this budget. They are happy with the status quo and are happy to starve the institutions that seek to improve the Public Service. For this reason alone, the DA cannot support this budget. I thank you.



Mr K M MMOEIMANG: Allow me to rise on behalf of the mighty African National Congress to support Vote 11 Public Service and Administration because the programme as it was tabled by the Minister in this House and also the committee speaks about the importance of implementing section 195 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which, among others, put much more emphasis on the implementation of a high standard of professional ethics, efficiency, economy and effectiveness use of resources. It is not surprising that the DA made no mention of that because they were nowhere to be seen in 1996 when we adopted this Constitution.


Secondly, the budget put much more emphasis on the implementation of the National Development Plan, which, among others, identifies the development of technical and specialist professional skills in the Public Service as one of the critical actions required in the creation of a capable and developmental state. The DA mentioned nothing of this nature.

Thirdly, the ANC supports the budget because the budget speaks about the implementation of the published framework, which is aimed at professionalisation of the public sector that starts with an honest reflection on the existing capacity of the public sector in South Africa. This includes that there has been an appreciation that we need to improve a state capability and the ability to improve the skills. Therefore, it is not surprising that hon Brauteseth is all over the shore instead of focusing on the fact that this budget oversees the National School of Government, it oversees the Public Service Commission, and it oversees the Centre for Public Innovation. He made no mention of these three aspects, precisely by virtue of the fact that the DA is punching way beyond its weight.

They forget that they must be relegated to where they are as the opposition benches. As the ANC we support the budget.

Thank you, Chair.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 12 – Public Service Commission – put.




Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms B T MATHEVULA: It’s not the ANC, Chair, I must correct. I am from the EFF I and not from the ANC. We object, Chairperson, without a declaration. Thank you very much.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am not sure now where we are. Hon Mathevula, are you there? No, we will pass on to ... [Interjections.]



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Yes, Chairperson, I’m here. Can you hear me?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, proceed.




Ms B T MATHEVULA: I said, we object without a declaration, Chairperson.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, thank you very much. Let’s then move on to hon M L Mamaregane. Mamaregane, yes, but we can pass.



Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Yes, hon Chairperson.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Thank you very much.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 13 – Public Works and Infrastructure – put.




Declaration(s) of vote:


Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, as the EFF, we object without a declaration.


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chair, hon members, I’m just waiting for the speakers not to be drowned. The recipients of substandard work that this department delivers, are South Africans from every walk of life. This declaration is for them. So, I told the South Africans that this department is so delinquent and confused. They are not even exactly sure what they own and having known since 2014. They are so kakistocratic that the Auditor-General will not touch them with the bunch part.



The outcome of the Auditor-General’s report was the disclaimer opinion. In simple terms, the Auditor-General is saying that this department is kakistocratic, so disorganised, so noncompliant and so incompetent that is impossible to even express an opinion on this department. The reason that I point

this out so forcefully is that the audit and properties owned, and the condition of these properties has to be the basis of any Public Works and Infrastructure budget.


With unaudited asset register, very little of the pipe dream set out by the department can be accomplished by the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure, and they cannot implement even their own Government Immovable Asset Register Management Act, and therefore, they can reportion land, probably in schools, police stations, hospitals or clinic. It cannot appropriately lease buildings to Criminal Assets Recovery Account, CARA, apartments or pay all of these it owns before it falls into a complete state of disrepair, and a no use to anyone.



The Minister did admit on such, when he announced that the register will be established, to establish prelease property from the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure, that almost takes action against defaulters. This is a sensible move, but once again, a toss of confession and concession, that the department has lost control. This department is destructed, and not focussing on what its core mandate should be, looking after the properties of CARA apartments.

Until this Minister turns this department around, and focuses on its core mandate, the DA cannot take him or his department seriously and certainly, cannot support the destroyed budget. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I wanted to ask a question. What is the meaning of kakistocratic?



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, I can explain.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: However, I can’t ask you the question now, I will talk to you outside the meeting.


Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, it’s a government’s stock to people that are inapt and incompetent. It’s a Greek word, it is pronounced kakistocracy, but in South Africa, we use the South African vernacular. So, it’s a kakistocracy. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, on what point are you rising? Yes, point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Maybe if you can go to Hansard and check the context. He’s using the word and in some other instances he is insulting the people that are running

the government by using that word. If you can go to Hansard, you will get to where it is insulting people that are in charge of government. So, he’s actually saying that the government is run by the worst out of what we can have in this country and even going to an extent of referring to them in a word that I can’t repeat here, but Hansard can clarify it better.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we just want to save a bit of time. I guess, the issue can be noted, and maybe a ruling can be made later if necessary. For now, we pass. Can we move on, Tim? Not unless you are rising on a different point altogether. If so, please state, on what point are you rising?



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, I rise on Rule 69 which allows me to rise on a point of order and a general substance of my point of order is that members are allowed to express point of opinion or point of debate that hon Nyambi is talking about.

It is my opinion that this government is kakistocratic.



Mr K M MMOEIEMANG: Chair, I rise on a point of order because most of this House did not make provision for the use of offensive language, and the manner in which it has been

captured and communicated is offensive, hence I agree that the issue of Hansard, will be able to clarify the issue. Thank you, Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will solve the problem. So, in order that we can move forward by noting the point and ruling to be made later. Thank you very much.



Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC supports the Appropriation Bill and Budget Vote No 13 for Public Works and Infrastructure. The programmes of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure are geared towards infrastructure development and job creation. The infrastructure development by the department which occurs through Infrastructure SA and those projects are both in the rural and urban areas, and they are in a critical part of the implementation of the economy, reconstruction and recovery plan.


This include the bridge building programme, of which 24 has been developed in flood affected areas of KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. Another 24 bridges are planned for development in this financial year, and this is beside the 96 bridges which are budgeted for development in the rural areas in all the provinces. This infrastructure project will enable

communities to have access to social services, jobs and market. The development of the small harbours will enable the surrounding communities to benefit from the ocean economy.


Hon Chairperson, the Extended Public Works Programme, EPWP, has ensured that it was able to create employment for people who would not otherwise have any income. At the same time, the programme has been skilling a vast number of people which have been part of the programme. Moreover, the programme has commenced with the artisan training programme which enables qualified candidates to enter formal employment or into the small and medium enterprises, SMEs. This is occurring in many different fields.



Critical to this programme, is the inclusion of youth, women and people with disability. This programme needs to be enhanced in this financial year and there’s a need to be an increase in its funding, as it is based on the transformation and inclusive economic development. Hon Chairperson, the department through the Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE, must enhance the value of government properties through maintenance and development.

These properties have an income potential to reduce the level of budget deficit, therefore, the Immovable Asset Register, IAR, must be completed. The repurposed Independent Development Trust, IDT, it’s a critical state-owned entity in development projects in all the provinces, and this is the way to restore state entity. The opposition in opposing this Appropriation Bill and Budget Vote on Public Works and Infrastructure ... [Interjections.] ... is telling the people of South Africa

that they do not want infrastructure

creation which are part of the critical programme and being funded. Hon Chairperson ...




... ke batla





Hon Tim is misleading the House by saying that the department has received an unqualified audit. His entity is the one that is receiving exposure. Don’t come here and mislead the House, hon Tim. You are ... [Inaudible.] ... useless as you are useless in the committee. Thank you.



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: hon Tim, on what point are you rising?



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, I am rising again on Rule 69(1), and I’m referring to unparliamentary language.

Chairperson, is it correct for hon Moshodi to call another member of the House, useless? ... [Interjections.] ... I’m sorry, I’m talking to the Chair. Hon Ndongeni, I’m talking to the Chair, not you. So, I’m asking for your ruling, Chair. Is it parliamentary to call another member of the House, useless? I am fairly sure that glossary at the back of the order rule book it’s ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I think that the dilemma and the difficulty we are really facing is that members of the House from time to time tend to degenerate and use all sorts of words and so on, that impacts negatively on the decorum of the House. If we are to succeed on what we are doing, hon members, we’ll have to build a very strong culture of avoiding descending to the level where we throw to each other all sorts of expletives and alighted type words that may be offensive and that may undermine our work overall.

We may have to come back to this House with a ruling that perhaps may assist us to conduct ourselves a bit better, because the word, useless, has been used quite a number of times today to convey all sorts of sentiments, feelings and so on. We’ll come back to the House, hon Tim, on the issue that you are raising. However, please note that the decorum of the House is not possible without us co-operating and working collaboratively, just to ensure that things are run properly. Thank you very much.



Vote No 14 – Statistics SA - put.




Declarations of vote:

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the EFF abstains from making declaration.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ntsube, are you covered?




Mr I NTSUBE: I am covered.




Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 15 – Traditional Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote:


Ms N TAFENI: The EFF is rejecting the report. There is no declaration. Thank you, Chair.


Mr A D MALEKA: I am covered, Chairperson. We support the Vote.




Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).








seated. Just allow me to get to the right place where we are. Am I correct if I say we start on Vote 16. [Interjections] Thank you very much.


Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, before we start may I raise something.







Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, the decorum of the House is all of our responsibility. All of us need to know how to behave accordingly and properly. But I can notice in recent period

the decorum of the House has deteriorated. My appeal is to everybody else, let us please observe and respect.




very much, hon Dangor.




Vote No 16 – Basic Education-put.




Declarations of Vote:

Ms S B LEHIHI: Chair, the EFF reject the proposed budget for the Department of Basic Education. Chairperson, Basic Education is that face of education where the mind of a child is sharpened and shape to be counted amongst the best in the world. It is a foundation where a foundation is laying and basic are taught to a child in an attempt to a child to have a future that is much brighter than that of their parents.



It is sudden that today in our Basic Education Department, we still have kids that are attending schools in winter without warm clothes or shoes on their feet.



The National School Nutrition Programme doesn’t do justice given the fact that the food that children eats at school will never be eaten by a convicted criminal. We have been screaming

for top of our last that education should be free but still today we are still struggling to at least led the children at basic place of education to enjoy free education and addible food as well as needs being brought to school, home and nurtured well.



The level and quality of education in our country compared to those of neighbouring countries is a joke and we applaud our kids for doing almost next to nothing as school instead of us and the government encourage and teach them more.


Our classrooms are overcrowded and teachers are exploited and overstressed to accommodate all the children even though we could hire more teachers in schools. We reject this budget.




Baie dankie.






members, before we continue, let me just remind you that declarations are three minutes. People blamed me if I stopped them, but they have been aware that it is three minutes. So, stick to your three minutes please.

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Chair, the DA cannot endorse the budget for Basic education as the Department of Basic Education continues to fail our children and perpetuate inequality.

Shockingly, one in five Grade 4 children in South Africa struggle to read comprehension. The proposed catch-up initiatives like substance while school infrastructure remains deployable with thousands of schools still having pit toilets.



Irregularities and fund mismanagement have more in Schools Nutrition Programme showing the ANC government disregard for learner wellbeing. The DA offers a fresh approach including a comprehensive catch-up plan. The Western Cape successful reading programme, infrastructure improvement and eradicating pit toilets once and for all. We pledge to audit the National School Nutrition Programme ensuring transparency and efficient new provision.



Fellow South Africans, in 2024, lets vote out the ANC oppressors and build a brighter future. We can make education a pathway out of poverty and unemployment but only without the ANC. The DA stand firm in its stand not supporting the Basic Education budget in this dismal circumstances. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Chairperson, we support the Appropriation of funds for the Basic Education Department. That is the message from the ANC. Our policy outlook as the ANC is premise on people being their own liberators. And that through the exercise of state power, we need to make interventions which empower the marginalised. It is for this reason education remains an apex priority of the ANC.



We have observed the recent progress in international reading literacy study and other assessment that are taken in our Basic Education system and they all reflect the negative impact of COVID-19 that has resulted in learning losses.


Some of the issue related to the need to cultivate a reading culture in the country. As the ANC, we have placed early childhood development as a critical area of focus to enhance the cognitive development of children to empower them to succeed in the education system and to develop effective learning capabilities.



The Budget Vote respond to various social needs such as transport for learners, nutrition meals and supporting entities which contribute to the quality of our education system. Critical parity of the Economic Reconstruction and

Recovery Plan is infrastructure and our Basic Education landscape has a major infrastructure gap to respond to the increasing population and the impact of migration.


The department has made tremendous progress in closing the infrastructure gap to ensure schools have sufficient classes to have an improved teacher learner ratio and for the provision of basic services such as water and sanitation.

These are critical to harness quality teaching and learning.



We are confident that the department is adapting the education subject offering to focus on education for the changing world and to promote maths and science which is critical for our economic development. We support this Appropriation Bill.

Thank you.




Division demanded.




The Council divided.








Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote NO 17 - Higher Education – put.




Declaration of votes:


Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson if you can permit me. Can I have my video off, with your permission?




worried. It is the same ... [Inaudible.]. The whole morning, we haven’t seen you. Is it even you who is speaking?



Ms S A LUTHULI: Okay, can you see me now Hon Chair? [Laughter.]




show your face ... yes you can now continue. [Laughter.]




Ms S A LUTHULI: Thank you, Chairperson.






Umuntu akabingelele, Sihlalo ...






 ... the EFF rejects the Vote for Higher Education and Training.



I-EFF iyasichitha lesi sabelomali ekubonakala unyaka nonyaka uhluleka izingane ezihlwempu futhi uziphuca ...




... even a better future.






Lo mnyango lo ubonakala ubeka izingane zethu engcupheni lapho ukwazi ukubachaya ebugebengwini njengoba kubonakala ukuthi izindawo zokuhlala abafundi zingaphephile ...



 ... across the country. We see students protesting year in and year out, and the challenges they face are never attended to by this department.




Lo mnyango ubonakala uhluleka ...






 ... realising its own National Development Plan, which is to see the post-schooling system meet the needs of the economy and society. This department has made no attempts in

addressing the challenges of the TVET colleges in KwaZulu- Natal, most especially in the north of KwaZulu-Natal. For those reasons, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for Higher Education and Training. I thank you.



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Chair, let's face it, higher education in South Africa is in crisis. The ongoing chaos, protests and violence at universities demonstrate the failure of the Minister to effectively address these issues. Concerns range from chronic dysfunction, corruption, and inadequate governance. Misalignment between funding and enrolment plans as well as an ever-increasing skills shortage in the country. The lack of concrete plans for student accommodation remains a pressing concern, one that the ANC seems unable to complete. the ongoing National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, catastrophes of late bursary repayments and financial exclusions have become all too common.



The DA offers an alternative, one that prioritises student welfare, and quality education, and ensures the efficient and effective management of NSFAS. Our focus is on infrastructure and resources for TVET colleges, ensuring that they meet the demands of our communities and prepare our students for the workforce. We will ensure that all students have access to

quality accommodation. We will fight against corruption, ensure effective governance, and restore integrity in our higher education system. Fellow South Africans, the 2024 elections symbolise hope for South Africans. Let's remove the ANC and rebuild our country. The DA cannot support the budget for Higher Education under these dire circumstances. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Chairperson, the ANC declares its support for the Budget Vote 17 Appropriation as presented by the Hon Minister Blade Nzimande. The department's intervention in higher education and training in terms of expansion of access to post-school education opportunities has been aimed at improving the success and efficiency of the Post-School Education and Training, PSET, system. The importance of an efficient education sector has never been more noticeable.



As the ANC, we are influenced by the principles of bringing about equity with a budget of R47,6 billion in the 2023 academic period given to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme. The department for the first time passed the 1 million mark that had been a target to be achieved in funding students, this covers 1,1 million students from TVET colleges and universities. Our government understands that providing

funding ensures that those that find themselves financially excluded from their social factors can complete their studies.



The commitment and investment we see towards the TVET colleges sector of funding education to integrate alternative forms of education into the South African education system; upscaling training in hard artisanal skills; promotion of technical and vocational education and training as the first career choice; Promoting teaching as a profession and deepen monitoring and enhanced partnership with private education are exceptional and should be further invested on as it brings major positive progress to the TVET sector. The proposed Budget Vote prioritises addressing the strategies in teaching and learning infrastructure for the TVET and the Community Education and Training, CET colleges, and sector expansion to adequately serve our local communities.



Concerning the TVET capital projects, a total of 90 TVET college campuses have been completed. It is pleasing to see these developments because it shows that as a country we are responding to basic societal needs. The TVET colleges campuses are to be constructed as of the year 2023-2024, Umfolozi Bambanani Campus and Umgungundlovu Greytown Campus. the Community Education and Training colleges, the construction of

the first three CETs, namely Tswinyane in Heidelberg, Gauteng, KwaGuga in Emalahleni in Mpumalanga and Eersterivier in the Western Cape


It's disappointing to stand here and listen to the opposition parties claiming to serve the interests of the communities and our students. At the same time, they're rejecting the budgets that are aimed at assisting our people, and we must tell them that they must keep on dreaming. They are not going to be voted for in 2024. I thank you.





Nk S A LUTHULI: Ukhuluma ngobani? Ukhuluma ngobani ke wena? Obani laba obashoyo?



ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Kubo! Bathanda ukukhuluma into abangayazi.


Division demanded.




The Council divided:




AYES- 36: Bartlett, M; Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Cele, Z L I; Dodovu, T S C; Gumede, Z R T; Khumalo, M;

Lekganyane, N M; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mamabolo, J B; Mamaregane, M L; Mamorobela, T P; Masondo, A N Mkiva, Z; Mmoiemang, K M; Mncube, B; Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Mvoko, M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ncitha, Z V; Ndabeni, M; Ndongeni, N; Ngwenya, W; Nkosi, N E; Nyambi, A J; Ntsube, I; Rayi, I; Rosho, M Z; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S; Thomo, T S; Zulu, MA.



NOES- 20: Aucamp, W A S; Badenhorst, F J; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Dlamini, M; Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, S; Londt, J J; Mathevula, B T; Michalakis, G; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai, K; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Smit, C F B; Tafeni, N; Visser, C.


Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 18 – Health – put.




Declarations of votes:

Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson, the Economic Freedom Fighters rejects Budget Vote 18 for Health. We reject the budget for the department which has no clear plan in addressing infrastructure backlogs and existing gaps that we see in all

provinces. We reject the Budget Vote for the department that is failing to strengthen its monitoring of the implementation of this general findings on key areas of internal controls and financial management, targets setting, implementation of plans and reporting thereof.



Chairperson, every day we lose lives. We lose lives because this department has failed to carry out its mandates that aims to help and improve the lives of the poor and vulnerable. This department has failed in reducing the level of poverty, inequality, vulnerabilities and social ills. This department has failed empowering individuals, families and communities in a functional, efficient and integrated sector. Chairperson, this department has shown declines in real terms from the previous financial year especially on administration, social welfare policy development, implementation support, on social policy and integrated service delivery. Chairperson, the Economic Freedom Fighters reject this Budget Vote for Health. Thank you.


Mr M R BARA: Hon Chair, the Democratic Alliance cannot support this Budget Vote on Health. The national Department of Health has failed to provide adequate healthcare services to the people of South Africa resulting in severe consequences for

our citizens lives and wellbeing. The department mismanagement and inadequate allocation of resources have compromised health services, infrastructure and the availability of essential medical supplies. Cadre deployment has hindered the efficient functioning of healthcare facilities undermining the delivery of quality care.



We witnessed the burden of communicable and noncommunicable diseases weighing heavily on our population. Despite allocated resources we have made insufficient progress in reducing their prevalence or minimising associated mobility and mortality rates. The backlog of cancer and obstetrics surgeries reaching alarming numbers poses a grave concern that demands immediate attention and expedited care. We face a shortage of healthcare professionals particularly doctors hindering comprehensive care. Our health infrastructure is dilapidated and fails to meet compliance standards resulting in prolonged waiting times and compromise services for patients.



The issues of poor administration inconsistent programmes implementation and the rising number of medical legal claims further strain our healthcare system and divert resources from providing care to the poor and vulnerable. These challenges erode public trust and demand strategies to minimise costs

without compromising victims’ rights. We offer an alternative approach the Democratic Alliance is committed to allocating essential resources, improving staff to patient ratios, attracting and retaining skilled professionals and eradicating corruption from our healthcare institutions.



However, is worth noting, Chair, is that today Popo Maja has been charged with corruption over the R140 million digital vibes contract. Popo Maja is the director of communications at the Department of Health. This is what we raised last year in terms of digital vibes whilst Dr Mkhize was in position. In 2024, we must vote out the ANC and grant the Democratic Alliance the opportunity to lead. We have a proven track record of accountability, effective service delivery and genuine concern for the wellbeing of our people. We can make a difference by providing a healthcare system that is accessible, equitable and capable of delivering the highest standards of care. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.



Division demanded.



The Council divided









Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 19 - Social Development – put.




Declarations of vote:



Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Social Development. We reject the department which fails to bring change to the people through the work of nonprofit organisations, NPOs around the country. This department has shown no care towards the victims of the KwaZulu-Natal floods that are still stacked in halls without any form of relief.



We have stood here on this platform and many others have tried to engage with this department in raising issues and challenges of the shortage of social workers in this country, but we have found no solution in this matter. Chairperson ...





 ... ikomidi eliqokiwe lezikhukhula lihambela zonke izifundazwe libheka izisulu zezikhukhula futhi yonke indawo la

sihamba khona abantu bayasitshela ukuthi alukho usizo abalitholayo kulo mnyango. Labo abahlukunyezwayo okanye laba engizothi yizisulu zodlame olusekelwe kubulili nabo bayakhala bakhala kanye nawo wonke umuntu bekhala ngokuthi abalutholi usizo ngoba bafike bahlukunyezwe emakhaya baphinde bazithole kufanele babuyele khona ngoba lo mnyango lo awubanikezi izindawo zokuphepha okuyizindawo zokukhosela.



Lo mnyango uhluleka ngisho abantu abahlwempu ababanikeza imali le yezibonelelo. Abantu bafika ngesinye isikhathi kuthiwe imali ayikangeni umuntu aze aboleke imali agibele kaningi ukuthi nje ayothola isibonelelo. Ngalezo zizathu, Sihlalo, ...




... the EFF rejects the proposed Budget Vote Social Development. Thank you.



Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Chair the state of social services in South Africa is dismal. The Department of Social Development has failed in its responsibilities, leaving the most vulnerable members of our society to suffer. Gender-based violence and femicide continues to escalate. Our children are suffering with orphaned and abandoned children, malnutrition and drug abuse escalating. Thousands of social workers remain

unemployed despite the department reporting a need for more than 55 000 social workers.



The chaos surrounding SA Social Security Agency, Sassa cards renewals and malfunctioning systems is a never-ending problem in this department. The DA offers a clear alternative, reprioritise dignity job creation and poverty alleviation. We will tackle crime, ensure safety, allocate the resources for social workers and more importantly, restore the dignity of the people of South Africa. We will establish an efficient, reliable and accessible system. Fraud and corruption within the department will be tackled immediately.


The DA is committed to creating jobs, providing sustainable support for the unemployed and addressing hunger and poverty head-on. The 2024 elections embody hope for our nation South Africans, as we unite to oust the ANC and embark on a journey to rebuild our country. The DA stands firm in its decision not to support the budget for social development in these circumstances. I thank you Chairperson.



Ms N NDONGENI: Chairperson, the ANC Social Transformation Agenda entails transforming society and to realise a national democratic society, which aims to build a political and

socioeconomic system that places the needs of the poor and social issues, such as health care, education and basic services and social security floor at the top of the national agenda. This is in line with the aspirations encompassed in the National Development Plan, and the United Nations, UN Agenda 2030 as well as in the Africa Agenda 2063.



This entails working diligently to eliminate the structural and systemic barriers that continue to exist in society and impaired South Africa development, particularly for historically disadvantaged groups, such as women, children, people with disability and members of LGBTQIA+ community.

Initiatives to address socioeconomic gaps, such as the Social Relief of Distress Grant, which aims to reduce the financial burden placed on the disadvantaged citizens as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic are the core of this development.



Noting that the Social Relief of Distress Grant reaches about 7,8 million people who have come to depend on the on it to sustain their livelihoods. The ANC-led government ...





... nive kakuhle ...



... has prioritised funding mechanisms to fast-track the review of the current social grant system with the intention to find mechanism to develop and implement a long-term intervention in the form of a Basic Income Grant in order to continue protecting the unemployed and vulnerable.



The need to address socioeconomic inequality, which brings societal ills such as crime, substance abuse and gender-based violence and femicide is at the core of the ANC transformation agenda. The ANC-led government is resolved in his priorities to increase access to social welfare, expand community and developmental programme and improve education and skills trainings. Amongst others, the more poverty is eradicated and people are empowered and equipped with skills and provided with opportunities to realise their full potential, the more society is stares towards sustainable and inclusive development.



The DA is incompetent for the people of Khayelitsha, Philippi, Scrapyard Kraal, Nyanga on that they are ..., I cannot say useless. They are ... The ANC supports the Budget Vote 19.

Thank you Chair.

Division demanded.




The Council divided:



AYES- 37: Bartlett, M; Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Cele,Z L I;Gumede, Z R T; Konza, N; Khumalo, M; Lekganyane, N M; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D;Mamabolo, J B; Mamaregane, M L; Mamorobela,T P; Masondo, A N; Mkiva, Z; Mmoiemang, K M; Mncube, B; Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Mthethwa, M E ; Mvoko, M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ncitha, Z V; Ndabeni, M; Ndongeni, N; Ndou, J; Ngwenya, W; Nkosi,N E; Nyambi, A J; Ntsube, I; Rayi, I; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S; Thomo, T S; Zulu, M A.



NOES- 20: Aucamp, W A S; Badenhorst, F J; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, S; Luthuli, S A; Londt, J J; Mathevula, B T; Michalakis, G; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai,K ; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Smit, C F B; Tafeni, N; Visser, C.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 20 – Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities – put.

Declaration(s) of Vote:


Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities. We have on many occasions tried to pinpoint or outline the challenges faced by the disabled, the youth and women who are also equal members of the society. The country continues to step international ranking of sexual violence and reported sexual offences of rape levels of violence against women seems to be increasing rather than decreasing.



Women continues to be marginalised to not having access to land or employment, and they have limited access to health care and medication. It has failed to respond to challenges faced by women in this country and has failed to take any co- ordinated approach for working with the other governmental departments so as to fight against femicide, and it turns a blind eye and deaf ear to the challenges of women, youth and persons with disabilities.



Chairperson, this department has also done nothing to assist Ms Babalwa Loji, a person with disabilities who was unfairly dismissed from a position of Cabinet Liaison Officer, which she held for over 15 years in the Department of Defence and

Military Veterans, which also following her dismissal, confiscated an electronic wheelchair.




Ke a leboga.





We reject the budget.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Because you just stopped in the middle, I was a bit confused.




Moh M L MAMAREGANE: E re ke go dumediie Motlatiamodulasetulo yoo a hlomphegago, mokgatlo wo mogolo wa Modimo le badimo ...





... view this vote as the representation of a strong effort to bring about significant changes in the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities. The ANC view the primary objectives of the budget as restructuring this ministry into a more efficient branch of the Presidency, with a specific focus on advocating for the rights of Women, Youth and Persons with

Disabilities, as well as managing and implementing the projects.



The Budget Vote shows the priority of a wellbeing of the progress of these marginalised groups by aligning its resources with the Presidency. It aims to drive impactful initiatives that directly benefits the most vulnerable individuals in the nation. Due to this budget, it is in concrete length for engaging stakeholders with the aim to involve all the stakeholders working for the wellbeing of the Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities to ensure that their initiatives receive support and function optimally within the available resources.



Addressing youth unemployment and gender-based violence, GBV, the department processes is treating youth unemployment and gender-based violence as urgent national crisis necessitating comprehensive and prioritised responses. The department emphasised the value of employing a data driven of elaborate approach to enhance policy making, implementation, monitoring and evaluation processes. They prioritise accuracy, relevance, predictive capacity, timeliness and people-centred focus.

We further support the legislative prioritised proposed by the department in this House and the National Assembly. The National Council on Gender-based Violence and Femicide Bill status was tabled in Parliament, the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, Amendment Bill status was tabled in Parliament, the Promotion of Women’s Rights and Gender Equality Bill status is yet to go to the Cabinet.



Also, the Constitutional Amendment is to recognise sign language as the 12th official language and the 18nth Constitutional Amendment status was tabled in Parliament by the Department of Justice. In conclusion, hon Deputy Chairperson, we firmly believe that this Budget Vote serves as the vital intervention in tackling significant challenges faced by the marginalised groups in our nation. ... [Interjections.] ... It represents crucial step towards addressing the pressing issues they encounter. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. [Time expired.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 21 – Civilian and Secretariat for Police Service – put.

Declaration(s) of Vote:


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the budget for Civilian and Secretariat for Police Service. Deputy Chair, we have no police in this country. The police have been captured by sectional interests of their leaders and the criminal interests of the gangsters they report to.



This needs the cleaning up from the top, Minister Cele, who is incapable of providing the kind of leadership needed to deal wit the problem the police face. He is one of the incapable Minister we have in this country, and there is no hope of ever dealing with crime, as long as he is still a Minister. The civil servant for police is merely used for dishing out favours and tenders to the ANC Comrades. We reject this Vote. I thank you, Chair.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, the Community Police Forum, CPF, ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If you can speak to the mic, hon Mthethwa, please. Speak directly to the mic.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: I’m trying, Deputy Chair. Am I audible now?





Mr E M MTHETHWA: Yes. Deputy Chair, I’m saying that the Community Police Forum, was foundational to the South African transition to democracy. During their first establishment, they provided a bridge between the police and the community, in context of the tip interested and hostility towards the police. With this alarming level of crime, it is important to reflect, Chair, that the 2014 report of the Khayelitsha Commission shows that the community with the most crime, may also have the least functional CPF. Therefore, strengthening the CPF is critical in the fight against crime.



The Civilian and Secretariat for Police has a key role to reduce the violent crime through the promotion of more active citizens and the establishment of a new social compact. This can find expression in the implementation of the 2026 White Paper of Safety and Security and the 2022 Integrated Crime and Violence Prevention Strategies, ICVPS, that are focussing on realising the vision of the National Development Plan, NDP and call for an integrated and hostility approach to the safety and security across all government departments and civil society.

Deputy Chair, the ICVPS makes a critical shift in the narrative around crime prevention approach in South Africa. The role of the police in this regard has a strategic policy advice to the Minister of Police, the legislated or objected objects of the Civilian Secretariat includes among the following, Deputy Chair: Firstly, the exercise of civilian oversight over the police services.



Secondly, it gives strategical advice to the Minister in respect of the developing and implementing policies, and thirdly, implementing a partnership strategy to mobilise role- players and stakeholders to strengthen service delivery by the police service to ensure the safety and security of communities, to provide guidance to community police for associated structures and facilitate their proper functioning.


In conclusion, Deputy Chair, an integrated part of the strategic focus of the Civilian and Secretariat for Police Service 2023-24 will be a functionality assessment of both the establishment of the Community Police Forum, CPF, and the Community Safety Forum, CSF, in order to ascertain the effectiveness of their implementation. [Interjections.]

... Therefore, Deputy Chair, that’s why the ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 22 – Correctional Services— put.




Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chairperson did you say Defence?






I said correctional services. If you do not have a declaration, it is fine.


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the EFF, reject the proposed budget of Justice and Constitutional Development.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Correctional services.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Alright.






you must know it is about correctional services.



Mr I NTSUBE: Let us pass, hon Deputy Chairperson.



will you please allow the hon Motsamai to make a declaration. We have spoken about it. Let us respect the decorum of this House. Let us not shout!



Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the EFF, reject the proposed budget of correctional services. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.


Mr I NTSUBE: Julius is very worried.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Thabo Bester saga made headlines for two reasons. It showed how unsafe South Africans are and it put on display the ANC-led government in all its spectacular incompetence for everyone to see.



The Department of Correctional Services is riddled with corruption within of failing on its core mandate to protect society from the most dangerous criminals. And to rehabilitate those who can be so that they can be safely reintegrated into society.



With the ANC at the helm, mild criminals learn to become professionals and continue to be a threat to society while the

fat cats and cadres eat all the money. We cannot support this budget whilst it fails to fulfil its core mandate under the ANC which is to keep us safe. I thank you.


Ms A D MALEKA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the National Development Plan, NDP, set out the vision for the nation. It envisioned that by 2030 all people will be and feel safe. The NDP also envisaged a capable, ethical and a developmental state.



The Department of correctional Services effectively contributes to the building of a capable and a developmental state to social cohesion and safe communities.


Budget Vote No 22 contributes to just, peaceful and a safer South Africa through the effective and human detention of offenders and remand detainees. It contributes to the rehabilitation and social reintegration of offenders back into the community. The core mandate of the Department of Correctional Services is to correct offending behaviour and the rehabilitation of inmates.



This Vote is in line with the call of the Freedom Charter and contribute to the rehabilitation of social and the

reintegration of offenders back into the community. The Department of Correctional Services effectively contribute to a capable, ethical and the developmental state. The social cohesion, safe communities by the National Development Plan. By equipping inmates with appropriate and relevant skills and training through the rehabilitation programmes is also important after inmates have served their time and upon reintegration into society. They are able to utilise the skills they have acquired and contribute meaningfully to the economy. This plays a pivotal role in the reduction of recivism in the country. The Department of Correctional Services will continue to implement the Self-sufficient and Sustainability Strategic Framework. This initiative is aimed at developing and utilising state assets under the department to reduce the costs incurred by the fiscus and to generate revenue to the department.



The Sustainability Strategic Framework is already yielding positive results. The inmates and correctional officials working efficiently to produce more in various correctional facilities. As a result the production levels in the farms and workshops and bakeries at various correctional centres are increasing. The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 23 – Defence— put.




Declaration of Votes:


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chairperson. The EFF rejects the proposed budget of the Department of Defence. We reject the budget of the department whose forces are equipped with old technology and weapons. They cannot engage in robust military exercise and they will not sustain a long-term replacement of the equipment utilised in foreign missions.


The SA Air Force are not usable and there are no spares and engineering research to galvanise other aircrafts to be safely repaired.



As for to remain relevant, we do not have infrafighting vehicles fled, the ones that are in access need serious service upgrades. The ability of the country to fulfil its international obligations is at stake with the navy and the aircraft air force. We reject this budget. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.







Hon members, you are really making noise. Please, you may speak, but then there is too much noise.



Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I agree.





Badenhorst, you were never asked whether you agree or not. Just continue with your declaration.



Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the continued cutting of the Defence Budget as evident in Vote No 23 is proof that the ANC-led government quite frankly do not care about the security of our country.




Badenhorst, please speak to the mic.




Mr F J BADENHORST: There is simply not enough funding to rebuild and to reposition the Defence Force to be able to deliver its constitutional mandate. To defend and to protect

the Republic, its borders and those living within those borders.



The ANC-led government has taken a once proud Defence Force, well-respected in international Defence Force circles for innovation, professionalism and dedication and turned it into a joke! If its Commander-in-Chief only capable of retaining the rank of chief of flying circus on a recent trip to Eastern Europe.



Much needed funding required to secure our country is being used to mention, but a few examples, fund salaries of senior staff members on suspension with full pay without being charged, excessive parades for promotions, R1,5 billion is pend on domestic and international travel, money is wasted on staff benefits and protection services.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, senseless projects like the Cuban operation Fusano, proves that the current ANC-led government’s loyalty lies in its Cuban comrades instead of its own citizens in South Africa.



The DA is of the belief that the primary focus of the National Defence Force should be to keep South Africans safe! A DA

national government will ensure as a first priority that our national borders are adequately protected by well-trained soldiers. We will ensure the modernisation of the Defence Force, undertaking of full audit of equipment and personnel available to determine procurement prioritise and assets that can be sold or repurposed. We will reduce a Wage Bill by retiring medical unfit members. This will add the additive average troop age. Savings in a Wage Bill some 70% of the current Defence Budget will be reallocated to the maintenance of the military equipment which is being ignited under the ANC-led government catastopacy.



None of the above is evident in the proposed ANC-driven budget. The DA can therefore not support it. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.


Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon Chairperson, if I was hon Badenhorst, I would not commented that way about the SA National Defence Force and compare it with the neo-Nazi army that I think you might have ... [Inaudible.] ...



You are mixing the past and it is unlike you.

Let me tell you, hon Deputy Chairperson, those who fought us by the spear are now fighting us by the microphone and the pen. We cannot lose a war in Angola and lose a war against the ANC and hope to win that war in this meeting.



We as the ANC, hereby declare our full support for Budget Vote No 26 – Defence and Military Veterans. We commend the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, for their commitment for protecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of our nation. We recognise the valuable role they played in times of crisis such as the civil unrests in 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic.


We urge the government to prioritise the administrative and operational needs of the SANDF, including shift management appointments addressing gender-based issues which were never attended in the army. And the increasing budget allocation to ensure that the Defence Force have the necessary resources to fulfil their mandate.



Additionally, we emphasize the importance of supporting military veterans and their dependents as well as the military health services for their contribution to our nation’s wellbeing.

If I was an Afrikaner and I served in the racist SANDF I would not in any way even if I am drunk ... [Interjections.]



Mr F J BADENHORST: On a point of order. On a point of order, Deputy Chairperson.



Mr M E NCHABELENG: Any comparison within the National Defence Force and the apartheid racist and neofacist ... [Inaudible.]




Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Me S E Lucas): Kan ons orde kry, asseblief?




Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I rise on Rule 69.




Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Rule 69 is very clear. If you look at Rule 69(12) - give me a second let me get to my rule book.



I want to quote this properly.





you called for order.

Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Deputy Chairperson I am calling on a point of order.







Mr F J BADENHORST: If you go on the back of this rule book, right at the back, there are certain unparliamentary comments that cannot be made.





Mr F J BADENHORST: Yes, the hon member, Rule 35(14) references to members as racists is not allowed! The hon member called us racists!




Badenhorst, you may take a seat. I will check on that order.




Hon members, order! Can we continue? Order!




I do not want this House to really deteriorate into what it has been doing moving up and down! People must be very thick skinned. Because sometimes people will say somethings you do not like. If it is in the rule book, we will rule accordingly.

Division demanded.




The Council divided.







Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighter and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).












Badenhorst, what you heard and what I heard was two different issues. That is why I have requested for the table staff to look into the issue, because I heard the hon member saying, “If I was an Afrikaner, I would never defend the racist and the neofacist SANDF.” And you said you heard him saying you are a racist.



So, that is why I said, let us confirm and the ruling will be made before the end of this day. That is what I am saying.

Thank you. We are going to put Vote No 24 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate.



Vote no 24 - Independent Police Investigate Directorate -put:




Declaration of Votes:




Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. The Investigating Directorate is toothless and to date that directorate has not done any of the things that were expected of it. Many high-profile criminals are working around unbothered, and many of them, including their animals, are working around with blue lights as Cabinet Ministers in this country.



Deputy Chairperson, as our organization will be celebrating 10 years of unbroken struggle, 10 years of anticorruption, 10 years of fighting racism, 10 years of being in the forefront of the land, 10 years of making sure that African people are represented without fear or favour 10 years of ensuring that black professionals are not looked down upon. We reject this budget. Thank you, Chair.

Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Chairperson, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate’s contribute to the building safer Communities as outlined in the National Development Plan and ensures that all people in South Africa are and feel safe. The IPID Act enhances the directorate’s investigative capacity and creates an opportunity for a strong independent oversight body, which will in consequence, contribute to the achievement of a police service that operates in line with the spirit of the Constitution.



The work of IPID takes place within an environment and increased incidents of public protests. These incidents lead to an increase in the South African Police service, SAPS, involvement in crowd control management, which in some cases result in unintended consequences. Such consequences are likely to further increase pressure on the IPID and its core business as outlined in the IPID Act. The fight for good governance and the fight against corruption, Chair, are critical instruments in the hands of the state.


If police are involved in criminal elements and criminal gains, the fight against wrongdoing might well not succeed. Cleaning up the police is essential so that the police can be an instrument that deal with wrongdoing in the country.

The IPID has achieved significant success in the fight against corruption. It has intensified the fight against corruption, fraud and maladministration conducted by the members of the police services. Some of the priorities of IPID include the finalization of the IPID Bill maintaining the focus on improving investigative quality giving special priority to the cases involving allegations of gender-based violence and violence against persons from other vulnerable groups and expanding access to IPID services. And prioritized the backlog strategy implementation to solve the ever growing backlog of cases.



Hon Deputy Chairperson, IPID has an important mandate to root out any form of transgression within the police, irrespective of the position of the alleged transgressor. Public confidence and the moral of society is restored when the police service is effective and efficient.


In the spirit of building safer communities as envisaged by the National Development Plan, NDP, the ANC supports this, Bill. Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

VOTE NO 25 – Justice and Constitutional Development-put:




Declaration of Votes:


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget on Justice and Constitutional Development we reject the budget, it has rendered justice a dream for millions of our people for whom costs remain out of reach because of the high costs it takes for one to access justice. Minister, the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, has not prosecuted any of the high-profile criminal cases that should be low hanging fruits for them in this country.



The Minister has stood by, watched the direction of the Office of the Public Prosecutor in order to save just one person. The Acting Public Protector is simple and extend one of your factional battles in the ruling party and is now in the office to protect Mr Cyril Ramaphosa. We reject this vote. I thank you, Deputy Chair.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chair, we are here to see a

high-profile politicians arrested for their share in state capture. This is due to the facts and perhaps the member should listen because under a DA government and some on the benches might find themselves in this position. This is due to

the fact that the National Prosecuting Authority has been hollowed out by the ANC.



It lacks skills, human resources and proper funding. The ANC enabled individuals to steal from all us and until we see people going to jail, there will be very little faith in our criminal justice system. A DA government will ensure that the NPA is properly equipped to deal with state capture criminals. You all know who they are and criminals in general to keep the public safe.


We will not protect criminals like the ANC is currently doing. We cannot support this budget. Thank you.


Ms S SHAIKH: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote


25 on Justice and Constitutional Development. Included in the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development Budget Vote is the budgets for entities and institutions that fall under the department, which includes the National Prosecuting Authority, the Information Regulator, Legal Aid South Africa, the Special Investigating Unit, SIU the Public Protector, South Africa and the South African Human Rights Commission.

There has been a lot of noise made today, hon Deputy Chairperson, about the fight against corruption and the fact that they want to see people go to jail, Deputy Chair. But rejecting this budget vote, you also rejecting budget that goes to these important institutions that are responsible for the fight against corruption against corruption.



Deputy Chairperson, our courts are critical for enforcing and defending of rights of people and dispensing justice. This they have played and continues to play a pivotal role in protecting and enforcing the rights of people.



In addition, the backbone of the fight against gender-based violence are the sexual offences, our courts, and the Thuthuzela Care Centres, which were introduced to focus on the speedy adjudication of cases. And once again, hon Deputy Chairperson, the rejection of this budget vote is a rejection against the fight against gender-based violence and victims of gender-based violence.


In line with the priority of government to fight crime and corruption, we welcome the announcement by the Minister of Finance that R14 billion has been allocated over the medium term to fight crime and corruption, with the following

specific allocations the NPA receives R1,3 billion to support the implementation of the recommendations of the State Capture Commission and the Financial Action Task Force and the SIU is allocated R100 million to initiate civil litigation in the Special Tribunal, flowing from proclamations linked to the recommendations of the State Capture Commission. So, it’s not true, Deputy Chairperson, that the State Capture Commission report is not being prioritized.



Deputy Chairperson, the department reported that the NPA’s investigation directorate, which was established in 2019 March by March this year, had taken a one 187 accused persons to court in 32 state capture and corruption cases. This is indicative of the ANC’s commitment in fighting crime and corruption.



We must show appreciation for the greater levels of collaboration and coordination between the investigation have directorate, the Asset Forfeiture Unit, the Special Commercial Crime Unit, the Special Investigating Unit and the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations.

We encourage the department not to relax its efforts and work harder to ensure that justice is not just done, but it is also seen to be done.


Deputy Chairperson, there is a lot of talk about the Siyabangena issue, and I am not sure what is meant, especially by the DA by that, because I am not sure if this is a problem of perhaps mathematics, because the DA in the previous elections had only 20% of the national vote. So, I am sure it’s a question of mathematics.



Secondly, Deputy Chairperson, in the 2014 election ... the ANC supports the budget. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson [Time expired.]



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 26 – Military Veterans - put.




Declarations of votes:


Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Deputy Chair, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for the Military Veterans as military veterans benefit nothing. I thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motsamai, your time is long gone, please sit down.



Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Deputy Chair, I rise today to declare our support for Budget Vote 26 Defence and Military Veterans in the National Council of Provinces. I applaud the department for its dedication in protecting our national sovereignty and providing support to those facing conflict and disaster. Hon Chair, I urge the government to prioritise service delivery at home to position South Africa as a force in security matters around the world. We must continue to invest in our defence industry to ensure our independence and readiness for successful operations. Let us work together towards a safer and inclusive continent, leaving no one behind. Chairperson, you know hon Motsamai, I do not think that is going to be proper for him to do this. he is not doing justice he must stop making noise in our Joint Standing Committee on Defence about the military veterans as if he cares because now he is rejecting the budget. I do not think that it is right. Thank you very much, Chair.



Vote NO 26 – Military Veterans agreed to accordingly to the section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The objections of the EFF Freedom Front Plus and the DA are noted and I will now hand over to hon Ngwenya.


Vote No 27 – Office of the Chief Justice - put.




Declarations of Votes:

Ms N TAFENI: Hon Chairperson, hon Mokause...





 ... indawo yakhe iza kuthaththelwa ngohloniphekileyo uTafeni. Ndiza kucela ukucima ividiyo...




...because there is an unstable network here. Chairperson, since the adoption of the Constitution in 1996 until the retirement of Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng, there was always that certainty that even when the judges got things wrong and that the judiciary itself was beyond capture. It is for this reason that we have always supported the budget vote of the Office of the Chief Justice in the past. However, since the honouring of Comrade Raymond Zondo to the Office of the Chief Justice, there is no longer the confidence and certainty that

the judiciary is the person who it is beyond the reach of the greedy and dirty hands of politicians.



While gambling in politics, Comrade Zondo has ignored the core function of this office. The administration of judiciary across the country is collapsing. We have judges who obviously not being trained sufficiently and who are unable to deliver judgment on time? The administration of the lower courts, the level of judiciary decisions taken by the lower courts leaves many of our people vulnerable through the miscarriage of justice. In his own annual judiciary report, Comrade Zondo be bemoaned the incompetence and lack of proper leadership at the Land Claims Court leading to abnormal delays in the finalisation of cases in the court. We therefore reject the Budget Vote for the Office of the Chief Justice and we are looking forward to the end of the term of Comrade Zondo so that back can be there can be proper administration of justice in this country again. So, as the EFF we reject. Thank you.



Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Chair, in the 1989 Harare Declaration, the ANC committed itself to the kind of system of judicial review that is currently in place in South Africa, affirming that in a democratic South Africa all shall enjoy universally recognised human rights, freedoms and civil liberties

protected under an entrenched Bill of Rights. South Africa shall have a new legal system which shall guarantee equality of all before the law. South Africa shall have an independent and nonracial judiciary. This Budget Vote is a reflection of the ANC’s commitment to the upholding of the rule of law, separation of powers, the administration of justice, accountability, responsiveness and openness.



As we know, hon Chairperson, courts are the final arbiter in disputes and disputes between persons and bodies. As an independent and strong judiciary is important for building a capable, ethical and developmental state as envisioned by the National Development Plan. Hon Chair, it has been reported that over the next three years, the Office of the Chief Justice will focus on improving access to justice and the service of the superior courts and increasing access to the judicial education courses. The work of the Superior Courts services programme is intended to enable access to justice primarily by ensuring that the judiciary is supported.


The programme has a budget of R3,1 billion over the next three years, accounting for 39,9% of departmental total allocation. To strengthen access to its services, the department aims to fill an estimated 33 critical positions for registrars, clerks

and judges, secretaries and superior courts. Hon Chairperson, to increase efficiency such as a turnaround time in dealing with cases, the court on line system is expected to be rolled out in 2023/24.



Hon Chair, in Eastern Cape, Free State, Mpumalanga, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West and Western Cape we will be monitoring this development. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.







Vote No 27 of the Office of the Chief Justice agreed to accordingly to the section 65 of the Constitution.



Vote No 28 – Police – put.



Declarations of Vote:

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, Chair. The EFF rejects the proposed budget for the Department of Police. The EFF has on various platforms long noted that South Africa has become a haven for criminals to do as they please, with high levels of gender based violence, a murder rate which is out of control and a race public assassination across all spheres of society.

Every quarter, South African crime statistics released by the Minister of Police reframe the alarming crime problem in this country. The levels of violent crimes have increased dramatically since Mr Ramaphosa became a President, with an increase of cash heist, assault, murder and sexual crimes. The SA Police Service DNA Laboratory Service has collapsed, leading to a compromising thousands of cases of sexual crimes which cannot be provided with DNA evidence.



Mass shooting in places of public gathering has increased. This all, while Mr Ramaphosa has placed intelligence in the Office of the Presidency.




Hee e! Kwala molomo wa hao hanyane.






The SA Police Service has not shown any convincing responses to the high level of crime. They have failed to send a crime warning to all criminals in South Africa that they have declared a war on crime. The EFF rejects this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, the IFP would not want to make any declaration. We support the Budget Vote for Police. Thank you.


Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Chair, every day in South Africa, 57 of our citizens are murdered, 137 women are sexually assaulted and 685 homes are violated. It is clear that crime in our beloved country is out of control. Every single ANC member in this House is very well aware of this. Many of them, like most of us, have directly or indirectly been victims of the rampant crime in South Africa. Yet, not one of them will have the courage to vote against this budget today. They will toe the party line and vote for a budget that will continue to rob South Africans of an effective, well-resourced and well- trained police force.



The DA cares deeply about the safety and security of all our citizens. We believe a safe and secure society for all as possible. The effectiveness of the Western Cape Government’s Leap programme is proof of the political will to prevent crime. Couple this with well trained and resourced law enforcement members and offer support and accountability to victims of crime.

All of this already makes a difference in the lives of the people in the Western Cape. Voting for this budget, and the ANC on the other hand, will just maintain the current catastrophic status quo, as will be borne out by the vote of the ANC members today. Tragically, the DA cannot support this budget. Thank you.



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chair, the ANC supports Budget Vote 28 of the Police. The ANC-led government is committed in the fight against fraud, corruption and maladministration. In strengthening the fight against crime and corruption, the

2022-23 ANC Lekgotla noted progress in key areas in the security sector. These include, the additional recruitment of police officers and the strengthening of key institutions, such as the National Prosecuting Authority.



The lekgotla called for an integrated programme which will ensure that South Africa is a crime free society by 2030. The lekgotla also echoed the January 8 Statement in relation to the fight against gender-based violence and femicide and called for consideration to be put in placed on having a specialised unit. The ANC supports Budget Vote on Police because it contributes to the building of safer communities as required by the National Development Plan.

The third quarter crime figures show that while there are increases in contact crimes such as murder, assault and robberies, there is improvement in crimes detected as a result of police action. The decreases in some crimes are attributed to increased police visibility through patrols, stop and search operations, vehicle checkpoints and roadblocks.



It has been reported that more patrol vans and high powered vehicles have been ordered to supplement visible policing and specialised units, such as highway patrols and flying squads to respond effectively to crime. The new fleet of police vehicles will bring better police visibility and empower police to be more effective in fighting crime.



We welcome the work also done by the DPCI, in ensuring that those who kill police officers are broad to book. Hon Chair, a vote against this budget is also a vote against the good work done by our men and women in blue, in keeping South Africa safe. The ANC supports this Budget Vote, but also, the ANC government won’t encourage vigilantism where a province wants to promote vigilantism. We are a sovereign state, hon Chair, we can’t go back to apartheid in the form of some victim called the Western Cape. Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote.

Question put.




Division demanded.



The Council divided.











Vote 28 agreed to.




Vote No 29 – Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development– put.



Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.


Declarations of Vote:


Ms N TAFENI: House Chairperson, it’s member Tafeni. In the EFF we reject the report. There is no declaration. Thank you, House Chair.

Ms C VISSER: House Chair, the Democratic Alliance does not support Vote 29 because the farming industry faces a negative financial squeeze phenomenon where farmers are finding that input costs do not translate to recoup their expenses profitably. All farmers were left to fend for themselves with an extremely difficult operating environment. The uncontrolled price hikes of fuel, fertiliser, transport, herbicides and seed created a shortfall between the sector’s total income and the total expenditure calculated to a sectoral profit of

R27,8 billion. However, considering financing 50% of their expenses through debt the cost of R25 billion, the sector had to pay service bank interest rates. The fact is, the department knew for 10 years about Onderstepoort Biological Products, total failure to manufacture vaccines and allowed cattle, horses and sheep to die like flies, and recently like

200 000 chickens in the Western Cape. In conclusion, it is sad, but it’s a reality, the ANC does not care and are not accountable to voters out there. Thank you.


Ms T C MODISE: Hon House Chairperson, the African National Congress moves to support Budget Vote 29 by the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. The ANC remains committed to liberate people from the shackles of the poverty, unemployment and inequality. Agricultural provides

significant employment opportunities and plays a strategic role in alleviating poverty. Therefore, within an expansion investment plan in the infrastructure to improve community access to basic services and increase the overall insufficient and competitiveness of the economy. The country will overcome its socioeconomic challenges.



The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development plays a central role in co-ordinating the response to the three evils triple true purchasing land, settling people on it, and providing assistant post settlements using the different government agencies. The ANC in its 55th Conference took a resolution that the state must continue to acquire agricultural land for purposes for distribution to the previously disadvantaged persons based on the constitutional principle of justice and inequitable access to land.



Hon House Chair, this is all due to our commitment to attaining the national democratic society. Government’s land reform programme remains fundamental in addressing the above triple challenges. The budget allocated for the food security, land reform and redistribution programme is, indeed, justifiable. Furthermore, the ANC supports the further

R676 million over the period that allocated to acquire 17 965

hectares specifically to provide security to tenure to the farm dwellers and tenants and further educate communities on the importance of this programme. The African National Congress is supporting this budget. Thank you very much.



Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 30 – Communications and Digital Technologies– put.




Ms N TAFENI: It’s hon Tafeni, House Chair. As the EFF we don’t have a declaration in this, we reject only this Vote. Thank you, House Chairperson.


Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 31 – Employment and Labour– put.




Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African National Congress.



Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms N TAFENI: It’s hon Tafeni, House Chairperson, I will do the declaration. House Chairperson, as Economic Freedom Fighters we reject the proposed budget on Employment and Labour. We reject the budget of a department that should actually called the department of unemployment as the unemployment rate in this country has continued to rise under its leadership, unabated without any viable solution to speak out. Instead of the ANC government creates an economy that is conducive to creating jobs for South Africans, especially youth, they are creating graduates that are nyaopes in all the corners of the country. The streets of KwaZakhele, Qonce, Duncan Village, Mdantsane, Butterworth in the Eastern Cape are all filled with black youth roaming the streets with no purpose.



Year in and year out Statistics South Africa draws a very scary picture of government failure to create jobs for South Africans. Unemployment is a serious issue in South Africa. It should never be a grandstanding public representative, PR, opportunity like what the ANC government deed the past week in Gauteng province, where the ANC government used government opportunity for political electioneering representing the 800 vacancies in Gauteng as ANC party programme and by advertising this government’s job through and as ANC programme. Therefore, as EFF we reject this Vote. I thank you, House Chairperson.

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon House Chair, through you to Minister Nxesi, you and your government and your employment equity demonstrates contempt for racial minorities and will undermine social stability. This is so reminiscent of apartheid era manipulations. The reality is that your party has failed to grapple with your disastrous governance and therefore you now resort to racial divisions and blame shifting to cover up for your policy failures. The only thing that you and your government will achieve is further significant damage to South Africa’s fragile economic structure and undermine any prospects of growth and job creation. The DA and other civil societies will leave no stone unturned in affirming our commitment to unity and equality. We have the Constitution and the courts on our side. Come 2024, we will vote out this incompetent government who has fallen from 74% to 47% and is continuously falling. This will be done to ensure we save this country from further destruction and job losses. The DA therefore cannot support this budget. Thank you.



Mr M I RAYI: House Chairperson, I will cut this speech short because I want to respond to this issue of the employment equity. The ANC supports the Appropriation Bill and Budget Vote 31 for Employment and Labour. The department engages in programmes which have supported the working class and the

unemployed in seeking employment, preserving jobs and ensuring financial support for workers through the entities which report to the Department of Employment and Labour. The department played a historic role to preserve jobs during the coronavirus disease, Covid-19, pandemic through the Temporary Employee-Employer Relief Scheme, Ters, payments from the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF. Without doubt, this was a historic intervention which ensured that the working class families were able to withstand the harsh effects of the pandemic. The department, through the Compensation Fund, assist workers which face workplace injuries. Far too many workers are facing workplace injuries and department has appealed to employers to ensure that health and safety legislation is enforced.



Let me quickly before these three minutes expired. I just want to indicate that the Employment Equity Act was passed in 1998, the first time it was passed by government. We received every year reports from Employment Equity Commission, all of them they indicate that there is no transformation that is taking place in the workplaces, in the private sector. Since 1998, every report I can challenge members of the DA who read each and every report of the Employment Equity Commission. They will see that there is no improvement in terms of the

transformation in the workplace. Let me tell you what the purpose of the Employment Equity Act is. The purpose of the Employment Equity Act is to achieve equity in the workplace by promoting equal opportunities and fair treatment in employment through elimination of unfair discrimination.



Now, the Minister that you are referring to, the reason why the Minister now is being given powers to intervene is because since 1998, there has been no transformation in the workplace. Therefore, this current Bill is now providing the Minister to identify sectoral numerical targets in order to ensure equitable representation and of suitably qualified people from the designated groups. Therefore, that’s why then the Minister has given this power because employers have been given a right to self-regulate, but they are failing to do that. Therefore, now there is an intervention of the intervention of the Minister.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members! Hon members! Hon members, order! Hon members, every day you want us to go home with our sugar level and the high blood pressure up. No, comrades. Hon members, we all have three minutes, no one is going to exceed three minutes. If your three minutes is over, please, please ...



... ungabe usayiqedeli ngoba sisuke singasayizwa.




Division demanded.




The Council divided:




AYES-39: Bartlett, M; Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Cele, Z L I; Dodovu, T S C; Gumede, Z R T; Konza, N; Khumalo, M; Lekganyane, N M; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mamabolo, J B; Mamaregane, M L; Mamorobela,T P; Mkiva, Z; Mmoiemang, K M; Mncube, B; Modise, T C; Mohai, S J; Moshodi, M L; Moss, L N; Mthethwa, M E M; Mvoko, M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ncitha, Z V; Ndabeni, M; Ndongeni, N; Ndou, J; Ngwenya, W; Nkosi, N E; Njadu, E Z; Nyambi, A J; Ntsube, I; Rayi, I; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S; Thomo, T S; Zulu, M A.



NOES-20: Aucamp, W A S; Badenhorst, F J; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; De Bruyn, M A P; Dlamini, M; Labuschagne, C; Lehihi, S; Luthuli, S A; Londt, J J; Mathevula, B T; Michalakis, G; Motsamai, K ; Nhanha, M; Ryder, D R; Smit, C F B; Tafeni, N; Visser, C.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Business suspended at 15:29 and resumed at 15:47.




Vote No 32 — Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment — put.




Declarations of vote:


Ms N TAFENI: Chairperson, it’s hon Tafeni. As the EFF, we reject Vote No 32. We have no declaration. I thank you, Chair.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, climate change, biodiversity and sustainability are becoming buzz words. The effects of climate change forces political parties to include that in their policies, forces governments to plan and manage it and even forces nonbelievers to recognise the changes in weather patterns. South Africa is a signatory to all the UN’s conventions on climate change and biodiversity but the implementation of most of these agreements is being hampered by either a lack of political will and money or both.

Organised crime syndicates are destroying our rhinos, pangolins, indigenous plants, abalone and other fish stocks, without evidence of an urgency in efforts to combat all of this, eroding our biodiversity.

The mitigation and adaptation of biodiversity and climate change is non-negotiable for the DA. The Western Cape is the first-ever province with a provincial Biodiversity Act, evidence of their commitment to enforce mitigation and adaptation plans for climate change and biodiversity to ensure the conservation and sustainability of our resources and environment for the future. We do not support the Vote.



Ms T C MODISE: ... [Inaudible.] ... not surprised. The ANC moves to support this Budget Vote. The Department of Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment is charged with ensuring the environmental protection resource convention, conservation and the equitable distribution of the advantages resulting from natural resources used for both the present-day population and future generations. This is to be accomplished while giving effect to the nation’s rights and environmental ... that is not harmful to the health and wellbeing ... as stated in section 24(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which specifically states that, all South Africans have: “the right to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing; and to have the environment protected, for the benefit of present and future generations”.

The department fulfils its mandate by formulating, co- ordinating and monitoring the implementation of the national environmental policies programme and legislation, with additional support from its entities, such as iSimangaliso and the Marine Living Resources Fund. The department is structured into nine programmes to ensure the effective achievement of its constitutional mandate. The nine different programmes and its purpose is reflective of the different focus areas, as subscribed ... of the environmental management. The objective of the current programme structure is to ensure that specific attention is given to each ... [Inaudible.] ... while acknowledging the interrelationship and ensuring that the integrated approach ... The department is expanding the ocean economy and job creation for communities in coastal areas as well as those involved in forestry, and this must be supported.



The department’s National Development Plan’s vision is that by 2030 the South African transition is to end an environmentally sustainable climate change, resilient, low-carbon economy and a just society ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Conclude, hon Modise.

Ms T C MODISE: ... where we’ll be well underway. The ANC supports the Appropriation Bill for Forestry. Thank you.



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 33 – Human Settlements– put.




Declarations of vote:

Ms S B LEHIHI: Chair, the Department of Human Settlements is mandated in terms of section 26 of the Constitution of South Africa and section 3 of the Housing Act of 1997 to establish and facilitate a sustainable national housing development processes in processes in collaborating with provinces and municipalities. Yet, currently there are over 2,5 million families in need of housing in this country and the number is set to increase every year. This department has failed in numerous challenges with the provision of affordable human settlements and it has since its inception, demonstrated its failure to eradicate the special legacy of apartheid and has instead redesigned and packaged it.



Whilst black communities remain stagnant in the space of human settlements, it has also failed to ensure an effective housing

development processes and failed at supporting provinces and municipalities in the implementation of human settlements projects. We are currently standing on a housing disaster whilst the Minister at the helm of nothing. This department speaks of upgrading informal settlements, but what is democratic about informal settlements and why has there been no decisive efforts to address the issue of land? The EFF rejects this budget. Thank you.



Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, while this selfish and tone deaf ANC government remains obsessed with agricultural land and they failed to provide all South Africans with a basic full-serviced residential stand close to opportunities.

Instead of making it easier for every poor South African to build their own home with the generational knowledge they have, this ANC government openly say they want to discourage people to build their own houses with the so-called Housing Consumer Protection Bill. This, while we have a housing backlog of hundreds of thousands throughout this country that grows day by day, this government thrives on monopolies that they can control and hold majority shares in at the cost of ordinary South Africans who try their best to help themselves as this government fails them. We will not support this homeless and undignified ANC budget. Thank you.

Mr I NTSUBE: Hon House Chair, the ANC fully supports the Human Settlements Budget Vote No 32. The Department of Human Settlements continues to bring housing security and comfort to our people, in particular, the vulnerable groups in our society. By the end of this current financial year, which is also at the end of the sixth administration, the department will have managed to achieve some of the targets set out in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework 2019 to 2024, in particular, the Breaking New Ground housing targets.



The government’s housing delivery is no longer targeting vulnerable groups, the unemployed people and the disabled. Our ANC-led government has expanded the scope to assist first-time home buyers who would normally be catered for by the private sector - those whose monthly salaries are between R3500,00 to R22 000,00. Through this programme, the government is eliminating the buying and selling of BNG houses. Not only is the government providing housing for the first-time home buyers, but is also involved in the housing project that seeks to reduce rental accommodation to be affordable to all the people, even those who have salaries below R3 500, who are normally forced to find accommodation in a backyard or in informal settlements. Indeed, the ANC-led government housing programme is committed to ensuring that no one is left behind.

Our support for the Appropriation Bill is also informed by the strides made by the department to eradicate mud houses in rural provinces. For most part, the government’s housing delivery focuses on urban areas. However, we are glad that it is now formally targeting rural areas. I know that, House Chairperson, the opposition normally likes to say that we have created a nanny state by building houses for our people. We can only do that as a caring government when you have a people, like our people with the past that they have, under your white rule, not building houses for them.



 ... [Inaudible.] ... it’s not you who had suppressed our people, but we wish to say that if you are not the builder of a system, you are the benefactor of it. Thank you very much.



Objections noted.



Division demanded.




The House divided.









Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 34 – Mineral Resources and Energy– put.




Declaration(s) of Vote:


Ms N TAFENI: House Chairperson, as the EFF, we reject the budget. We have no declarations.


Ms C VISSER: Hon Chair, in the 1980s, South Africa was the world’s mining superpower. This industry was an important economic catalyst. The mining sector did not only provide employment and livelihoods to South Africans, but also to citizens of neighbouring countries such as Lesotho, Swaziland, Zimbabwe and Botswana. Sadly, in the last 17 years, this sector historically regarded as thriving, is today a shadow of its former self, with a decline in production having fallen by 67% and employment by 41%. Consumers of these shining medals are looking to other regions for supplies.



Some of the factors contributing to this decline are beyond the purview of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, however many are. High labour costs, load shedding, criminality and policy uncertainty are some of the factors and

bedevil the sector. As a consequence, more mines are either scaling or closing down and thousands of South Africans are losing their jobs under the sleeping tiger’s watch.


Only yesterday, a snap polling by unfolded on SABC revealed that 87,4% believed the ANC can no longer be trusted leader of society. South Africans have had enough of a government that breaks everything it lays its hand on. A government whose policies have made them unemployed. The 2024 national and provincial elections will be a defining moment in this history of our country, with the ANC in opposition benches. In good conscience, the DA cannot support vote 34. Thank you, Chair.



Ms L C BEBEE: House Chairperson, the ANC supports the Appropriation Bill Budget Vote 34, since it is aimed at enhancing economic growth and inclusive development through transformation in the mining energy sector of which the DA in those years - 300 years - I am reminding you, never had any transformation when it comes to mining. Regarding the mining sector policy, it tends to improve the effectiveness of the social labour, to tackle the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment in the mining communities while supporting local integrated development and strengthening the long term resilient into affecting miners. Hon Smith says: the

senseless ANC, on my part I say, the sensible ANC. Why I am saying that is because this government ...




 ... iqinisekise ukuthi amakhosikazi abantu abamnyama bawanikeza amandla ukuthi nawo abe nezimayini ...




 ... of which that government of apartheid never thought that women can do and have certificates that says I have got a mine. That is ANC government.









Ms L C BEBEE: Yes, we have Women Diggers Programme to empower women, that you never had one. We have scale mining support technical that you never thought we were going to have one.

But our government - the ANC - made a point that everyone has got access in all those things. Firstly, the Electricity Regulation Act intends to incentivise investment of the generation of the network electricity market to enable dependent powers to compete directly with Eskom and the

different customers categories. In turn, the entry of IPPS degeneration network introducing competition in leading the significant decline of the high energy tariff. Who did that? That apartheid government. We are in this situation because of that. We are doing and mending these regulations because they never thought that ...





 ... umuntu omnyama uzophatha la eNingizimu Afrika. [Ubuwelewele.]




And we are here to stay. Come 2024, whether you like it or not, hon Visser and hon Smit, 2024, we are going to ...




... phatha.






Yes ...






... ngeyethu le lokhuzana ...







Ms L C BEBEE: ... whether you like it or not. Secondly, the electricity pricing policy seeks to strengthen the capacity of a regulator of South Africa to send competitive crisis and generation, and transmission, and distribution and tariffs.




Into eningazange niyenze leyo ...





... at all because you never thought ...





... ukuthi indlu emnyama ...





... is going to have this privilege of polishing ...






... izinqubomgomo zabo. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.




Thank you very much.




Division demanded.



The Council divided.




Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 35 – Science and Innovation– put.




Declaration(s) of Vote:


Ms N TAFENI: Chairperson, since there is no network here, I want to switch off my video. Its Science and Innovation, Chair?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, its Science and Innovation.



Ms N TAFENI: Okay. House Chairperson, the EFF reject the proposed budget for Science and Innovation. The EFF wishes to state that the continuing underfunding of the Department of Science and Innovation is at the centre of this country’s developmental agenda. There seems to be deliberate attempts to

undercut even departments that shows simple means of progress, potential or capacity, and this department is suffering to know different fate. The budget allocation for environmental innovation is a split in the face of the call for renewable energy and abandoning of fossil fuels, which has been used as a directionless disgusting to abandon the use of coal.

Chairperson, we reject this budget as the EFF. Thank you, Chair.


Ms N NDONGENI: House Chair, the ANC on Science, Technology and Innovation recognise the need for integrated scientific planning to support national economic development. We declare our support to the appropriation today because it reflects this integration for the growth and development of our country. Hon members, it is no secret that advances in science and innovation cannot be achieved, unless grounded in sound education and research policies which have as their aim the maximum utilization of the full potential of all human resources in our country and which allows for creative in scientific and technological research and design.



We note the widest possible access to programmes of education and training in scientific and technical fields of all levels as a priority. The Budget Vote is that commitment of funding

600 interns trained and set ready for translating knowledge into practical skills. Our government understands the need to include an environmental perspective in science and technology training and education, hence there is investment and plans to hold engagements with 36 sciences, technology and innovation leaders. This will bring the perspective strategies into practical outputs.



We support the budget in ensuring that it will increase science journalism in our country to demonstrate the groundbreaking work done in our country. This is also assisting in promoting maths and science amongst children and amongst the girl child, in particular, to address the gender inequality in the science. The ANC notes the department’s work on sector innovation and the green economy, which is the sub programme for the provision of the policy strategy and direction for growth in strategic section for the economy.


In the midst of our energy crisis, we need to leverage our science capabilities in our entities to aid the national load shedding response and the Just Energy transactions to the green economic through science and innovation. You know what Chair, the EFF don’t even have a ward, but they say government in waiting. Oh shame! Poor them in 2024. The DA rejects the

budget, so I don’t know because they are government in waiting in 2024, so it means to me that they are the opposite of useful. Thank you, Chair. The ANC supports Budget Vote 35.


Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote No 36 - -Small Business Development – put.




Declarations of Vote:


Ms N TAFENI: Chairperson the EFF rejects the proposed budget for Small Business Development. As the EFF, we have stood on many platforms before and made it clear that there is no need for this Department of Small business as there is no basis to separate Small Business from the Trade and Industry.


Small Business road has become large, but the department has failed to assist small businesses with funding. This is concerning to note that small businesses mainly owned by black youth who need to meet rental demands in order to maintain a presence in malls and city centres have closed down because they have received no support from this Ministry.

In a province such as the Eastern Cape, Hawkers selling on the streets are violently removed from selling goods on the street there. This is an ongoing issue that our people cannot own their rights in a rightful way.



This increase of small businesses has been a huge amount which shows that our youngsters wait for nothing other than to live in their homes without any jobs. As the EFF, we reject this vote. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms B MNCUBE (Gauteng): Hon Chairperson as the ANC, we unequivocally support the adoption of this Vote. In these difficult economic circumstances that the world and our country are under, small and medium enterprises, SMEs, and cooperatives are potentially the source of economic vitality and necessary engines for employment creation and economic growth.


It is important to remind ourselves that life today for most of our citizens is better than it was under apartheid.

Thousands of Africans and black South Africans have access to finance and business support provided directly by the ANC led government and the entities related to it.

The domestic and global economy has been sluggish since the conflict in Ukraine and Russia broke out. The European Union for instance, is expected to grow at less than 1% and the United Kingdom is projected to have negative growth.



An International Monetary Fund, IMF, report suggests that one third of countries worldwide may fall into recession this year. South Africa is not immune to these challenges. The South African situation is compounded by the energy challenge.



Fellow South Africans, vote for their tried and tested organisation, that is the ANC. It is better to vote for the ANC you know than to waste your vote the DA and its alliance.


South Africans, coalitions don't work throughout the whole world. Just look at what has happened in Tshwane and Johannesburg municipalities. It is a circus.



How many times have they changed their mayors? From 2016, the City of Johannesburg has deteriorated to unacceptable standards. Vote for the ANC come 2024. They talk a lot but no service delivery. Don’t be fooled by their great noise.

Hon House Chair, as I conclude, as the ANC, we have the moral responsibility to support and develop particularly the poor the from the clutches of poverty and underdevelopment, and we believe this Vote responds to that. I Thank you. The ANC supports this Budget Vote, Amandla!



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Vote 37 – Sports, Arts and Culture - put.



Declarations of Vote:


Ms S A LUTHULI: Hon Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for Sport, Arts and Culture and there is no declaration.



Mr E Z NJADU: The ANC stands to support the appropriations for Vote 37. It has strongly shown that the department and its entities have an investment focus on goals for our sports, arts and culture sector. Hon Chairperson, having an understanding that a flourishing arts and culture life is vital to the well-being of our country. The prioritization and work the department has done in supporting us education and training institutions must be recognised.

The Minister announced the National Academy of Africa's Performing Arts, which is the initiative of Caiphus Semeneya and Letta Mbulu and it is at completion stage, with minor touch ups on construction, which is supported by the department.



The National Academy will offer professional arts training in music, dance, and drama. Such progressive development in arts give us hope for greater work that will be done by the department. The department is central to the ANC sports policy imperatives. It is key to the continuous inclusion of all marginalized groups in sports.


The current enormous potential of sport in our country is in the fact that it is increasingly being recognized around the world. Our sports have developed and demonstrated empowerment and promotion of the inclusion of women, the youth, rural communities, and people with disabilities. This this is positive to see that it is one of the important work done by redressing inequalities in sports to be able to ensure equality.



We are confident in the work done by Ministers Zizi Kodwa and the department as it is evident. The Minister has announced

that the department has been allocated a budget of


R462 million this financial year to continue creating jobs in the cultural and creative industry.


A total of 40 thousand jobs will be created through the employment multiplier model used to create jobs in this industry. In the scarcity of employment and many other social sections, this work by the department to ensure that it can create jobs is greater appreciated and we will support the department in every stride to make a better country. The ANC supports Vote 37. Thank you very much, chair.



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 38 – Tourism– put.




Declarations of vote:

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chair, as the EFF we object with no declaration. Thank you.



Ms H S BOSHOFF: House Chair, this declaration is for the Minister. Minister, with all due respect the goose that lays the golden egg, namely, the tourism industry is at risk with

the ANC’s government protracted love affair with Russia. Tourism is the largest contributor to the GDP and yet this government cannot see through its eye lashes so blinded is it. It is a question of to Russia with love.



We have recently seen South Africa lose its bid to host Formula 1 race at the Kyalami Grand Prix Circuit due to amongst other reason its partisan ties with Russia. Minister, when will you sit down with your President and explain to him that this country is using valuable revenue income due to its continued love affair that is costing the industry millions.



You have passed this budget knowing that it is to the detriment of the tourism industry and with all due respect your legacy will not be worth the paper which is written on as you will have nothing to show, and this budget reflects that. Therefore, the DA cannot support the budget. Thank you.


Mr M I RAYI: Hon House Chairperson, over the years the tourism sector has proven to be susceptible to the negative impacts of the economy. This was advent through the advent of the COVID-

19 pandemic, during the unrests as well as when the floods washed down a lot of small businesses and homes causing devastating harm to livelihoods and lives of many,

particularly in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape and the Northern Cape. That being said, this is a sector that equally proven to be resilient as we anchor a sector recovery that is fostered on inclusivity and transformation. Growing domestic and cultural tourism remain pivotal. Over the 20-23 Easter weekend tourism spending is said to have increase 127% across all nine provinces with the Eastern Cape contributing 136%, Free State 114%, Gauteng 128%, Limpopo 137%, Mpumalanga 117%, North West 110% and the Western Cape 139%. KwaZulu-Natal and Northern Cape coming in just short of 100%



Hon members, this is a good sign indicating that the tourism sector is bouncing back.


We are encouraged by the Minister’s feedback which she gave in this House indicating that the legal battles around the tourism equity fund which was challenged by the DA have been resolved and the funds will be disbursed to deserving businesses so as to have sustain and grow them and help them to meaningfully contribute to the economy. To this effect

R540 million over the Medium-Term has been allocated to the Tourism Equity Fund, TEF.

The ANC welcomes that the overall budget allocation to the department increased by 0,87% in nominal terms when compared to the budget allocation of the 2022-23 financial year. We also note that 53,3% of tis allocation goes to the entity, the SA Tourism, SAT. To this end we would like to call on the Ministry working together with the department to expediate the resolution of the various competency issues that have been raised by Members of Parliament as it relates to the board and the executive of the SA Tourism, SAT. The ANC supports Budget Vote 38: Tourism. Thank you very much, hon Chair.



Division demanded.




The Council divided:











Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 39 – Trade, Industry and Competition – put.

Declarations of vote:


Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chair, as the EFF we object and give no declaration.


Mr M E KHUMALO (Gauteng): House Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote and the Appropriations Bill.




Die probleem in ons land is dat die beginstigters van die onderdrukkende, rassistiese sisteem van apartheid nie verantwoordelikheid wil vat nie. Hulle kry net meer selfvertroue en arrogansie. Dankie, kommissaris, dat u ons pynlike verlede besoek het.





Quickly in English, the problem in our country is that the beneficiaries of the oppressive racist system of apartheid do not want to take responsibility. Instead, they are gaining more confidence and arrogance. Thank you, commissar, for visiting our painful past.


Both investment and localisations require industrial funding and other support. In driving a developmental state this support must come directly from the state. In the previous

financial year R30 billion was allocated for various incentives and industrial funding to made available to firms’ risks in South Africa. Substantial progress has been made with efforts to beneficiate our new material, for example a large new stell mill is under construction in Germiston that will use South Africa’s iron ore to produce flash steel products and bring competition to the up string market employing about

300 new workers from townships like Katlehong, # Nasi iSpani.



Ten new factories are in full producing production in the new Tshwane special economic zone, SEZ, employing over 2 500 workers, # Nasi iSpani. In March this year the ANC-government signed a memorandum of understanding, MoU, with the world’s fourth biggest car made which manufacture cars like Chrysler, Peugeot and Opel, amongst others, to explore the possible local assemble of their vehicles. This will have a greater spin-off for the South African economy particularly small businesses. The number of successes which were also achieved since the adoption of the localisation policy in products such as pharmaceutical, glassware, food products, clothing, car component and many others. A new cooking oil refinery will be opened in Richards Bay later this year.

Building on this R40 billion is allocated to the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition in additional local output and commitment towards this financial year. The foundation for achieving this is the public-private partnership through which business are committing large sums of money to boost the local procurement. The companies which have made these commitments include Coca-Cola, Air Liquid, Shoprite, Checkers, Pepkor, Consol Glass, Heineken, Implants, Mercedes-Benz, VW, BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota and Isuzu. This starts with the adoption of this Vote with the state not leading in investment we would not see the industrialisation and the development we wish to see to transform our economy should not support the adoption of this Bill.



There are some amongst us who reject this Bill but want the people of South Africa to vote for them. The people of South Africa must know that they are rejecting jobs and service delivery by rejecting this vote. We have a clear mandate of extricating the poor and the unemployed from the clashes of poverty and through this Vote. We will be able to achieve that. The ANC supports this Vote. Nasi iSpani! I thank you.



Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 40 – Transport– put.




Declarations of Vote:


Ms N TAFENI: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for the Department of Transport. We reject the budget of the department, which is plagued with a number of challenges, which include a lack of transport accessibility for our people, especially those living in rural areas. Transport needs such as safety, shorter travel times, less overcrowding, affordable taxi fares, reduced walking distance and improved access to facilities remain a challenge for the black majority of our people.


We also reject the budget of a department whose Minister gave a directive not to transport the general public on 20 March 2023, when the EFF held peaceful protests in the form of a national shutdown. This clearing demonstrated that the interests of this department is in defence and control of the public transport for selfish needs of the ruling party, more than ensuring that South Africa have safe and reliable public transport.



The majority of South Africans, particularly blacks, continue to be victims of robbers, because of the lack of reliable and

safe transport in this country. Most of the modes of transport available in South Africa are not maintained, making them a hazard to people. Thousands of motorists, especially young black women who stay in townships and rural areas, fall victim of crime next to our roads, as they always suffer tyre burst purchase because of the extremely bad road conditions in this country. I reject this Budget Vote. I thank you.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chairperson, hon members, to the South African for whom this declaration is intended for, let me be clear, you need transport to facilitate the efficient flow of resources, the efficient movement of people, the efficient utilisation of time. You want transport to be about efficiency. You want it to improve your human existence and experience. What South Africans get from this budget is a mere continuation of the lofty and grandiose plans and the cheap ANC promised vernacular, especially related to public transport.



The reality is that this department has failed to value, protect and maintain key transport modes entrusted to it. Under their watch, this government has ensured, through a lazy disregard for any relevant protocols, a state of poor management capacity, corruption, inadequate security, which

has led to theft, vandalism and the neglect of infrastructure. Unless these basics of management are addressed, the situation will be much the same, at the same time of the next Budget Appropriation.



The DA, on the other hand, would merge Prasa and Transnet, and more than R1 billion will be saved every year. This savings can be used, for instance, to re-establish freight terminals along active transport routes, instead of trying to make the current freight route configuration work. A R1 billion saving every year would go a long way in fixing infrastructure and securing assets.


Despite the protestations of the governing party, this transport budget under ANC control does not reflect the advancement of opportunities for the people of South Africa. Proof of this is abundant. Rail infrastructure maintenance investment will decrease by 55%, from R42 million to

R19,7 million. The road programme budget will decrease 32%, from R60 billion to R42,6 billion. The aviation budget will decrease by 29%, from R424,8 million to R314,5 million.



In 2024, the electorate will approach the ballot box, thirty for change. The DA is ready for the opportunity to be

entrusted with government and the proper management of this department. Woza, 2024 woza!









Thank you.



Mr K M MMOEIMANG: House Chair, the ANC supports the Appropriation Bill and Budget Vote 40 for Transport, because it is geared towards critical programmes and projects, to develop the transport sector. Amongst the programmes is Prasa, which has recently opened 13 rail corridors and more will be opened in the coming year. This is part and parcel of the programme to restore our rail stations, precisely by virtue of the fact that this programme is aimed at benefitting the working class and the poor.



Secondly, this programme also supports the Sanral entity, which is engaged in many important road development projects in the different provinces and prominent examples across our provinces are a number of Welisizwe bridges and Moloto Road that are amongst the programmes that we have indicated. But

more than that, the marine transport and civil aviation functions in South Africa are on the highest international standards and the country’s safety record is second to none.


The development of the Transport Regulator will ensure that the transport system is able to function on the cheapest possible cost to the consumer. Opposition parties, which opposes this budget are opposing the development of the transport infrastructure geared towards economic development and job creation, as well as public transport development for the benefit of the working class and the poor who depend on efficient public transport.



It is important to note that the opposition is making noise, because they have no concrete programme for ensuring social delivery to historically disadvantaged communities and therefore, no programme for the transformation of the lives of ordinary people.



Members of the DA and their ally believe they are the only ones entitled to live a dignified life. Everyone has the right to participate in the economic life of their country and it is our moral responsibility as the ANC, to represent the majority

of the people of South Africa, to ensure that the efficient public transport becomes a reality.



The opposition is unable to positively contribute to the development of our country, as they remain stuck in issues which affected our country in the past. They are not forward- looking, to contribute positively to the sector, which is critical to the functioning of the economy. In conclusion, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you,



Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.


Vote agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).



Vote No 41 – Water and Sanitation – put.




Declarations of Vote:


Ms S B LEHIHI: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed Budget Vote for Water and Sanitation, a department that has committed violations to the right to access water and sanitation are unacceptably high in the country, with most violations taking place in rural and informal communities.

In Springbok in Northern Cape, the sewer infrastructure in that remote town is failing is failing at a dramatic rate due to neglect over the past 30 years, so much so that its sewage works are now scoring a major 30% or less in the Green Drop assessment.



In eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality, 19 out of the 27 wastewater treatment plants were leading to raw sewage spilling into the ocean and other freshwater resources, risking the lives of people and biological lives in that area.


In Sekhukhune district of Limpopo, Minister, residents have experienced a chronic water crisis which has persisted for decades, and which has left communities in and around that region without water.



Twenty-three people have died in Hammanskraal due to sheer negligence. House Chairperson, we reject this budget.



Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, the IFP supports the Budget Vote and we do not want to make any declaration. Thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, firstly, I want to congratulate my colleagues here next to me and say we must be very proud of ourselves because we keep the ANC accountable. They stayed in this House. It took quite a long time to teach them to be responsible and represent the people of South Africa, but at long last they started taking ... [Inaudible.]

... well done to the DA.




Hon Chair, a water and sanitation time bomb is running out of time as the ANC has failed to ensure planning and stole the budget that was supposed to build the necessary bulk water infrastructure to increase capacity for growth.


Secondly, the word maintenance does not exist in the ANC vocabulary and now all the infrastructure is starting to collapse around us as it is far beyond its expected lifespan.



South Africa now sits with electricity blackouts, water blackouts, sewer, fountains, and rivers all over running down the streets and creating sewer wetlands, for example, in Kimberley, all over, exposing poor people and children to waterborne diseases like cholera that has now already started showing its ugly head in quite a few provinces.

We will not support these empty promises budget that leaves people with taps with no water. Chairperson, I want to say to South Africans, if you sit with a tap without water, register to vote, if you sit in an area where the sewerage is running down your street and surrounding your house, register to vote. I want to say to South Africans, if you are tired of the water shedding and load shedding, register to vote because the power is to the registered. I thank you.



Ms L N MOSS: Hon Chairperson, the ANC fully supports the Water and Sanitation Budget Vote 41 - keep quiet, please - as tabled by Minister Mcunu. Minister Mcunu, the two Deputy Ministers and the director-general have turned the department around to respond to its mandate to ensure that our people have access to safe and clean drinking water and a dignified sanitation infrastructure. Speak to Khayelitsha, Gugulethu and those areas who don’t have proper sanitation and water - keep quiet.



As the ANC, we are now beginning to see improvements, not only in its overall audit outcomes, but in its ... [Inaudible.] ... to build capabilities to deliver the big water and sanitation infrastructure projects across the country, not only in the Western Cape.

The department has managed to fill almost all the vacant senior management positions and most importantly, it has employed more than 800 scientists and technicians. That is important that is so ... We not only appreciate the role the department is playing in reducing the rate of unemployment, but we also commend the department for managing to recruit critical skills that our government so much desire to address some of the technical problems within our sector.



We call upon the department to deploy staff with critical skills through the struggle water services authorities through the utilization of the District Development Model.


Hon members, the truth hurts. The basis for our support is developed right from the commitment by the department to amend the Water Services Act to insert provisions to empower the Minister to directly intervene in struggling water service authorities such as that of the City of Tshwane, particularly for those white Afrikaner Boers who sits on the water boards.



We are on the firm belief that Cholera outbreak and the loss of lives could have been avoided if the Minister had been empowered to intervene in another sphere of government. Most importantly, as the ANC, we support the Appropriation Bill

because the department continues to roll out water and sanitation infrastructure through our communities and ensuring that the licence obligations of providing people with clean, safe drinking water and sanitation, not like in Gugulethu, Khayelitsha, and even in Dunoon. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]



Question put: That Vote 41 be agreed to.



Division demanded.



The Council divided.












Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).


Appropriation Schedule put.




Schedule agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. We will now proceed to the Third Order – Consideration of Appropriation Bill and Report of Select Committee on Appropriations thereon.


It appears that we must go back to the schedule and formally adopt it. I guess what we need to do is to find out from delegates and members those who are in favour to formally go through the process.






[Take in from minutes.]








Ksz D G MAHLANGU: Sihlalo, ngibawa ngokuzithoba nangehlonipho kobana ngikhulume neNdlu ngihlezi phasi.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, please proceed.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, the Chief Whip, hon members, MECs, permanent and special delegates present ...




... bantu bekhethu beSewula Afrika, ngaphambi kobana ngethule umbiko wokwAbiwa kweeMali wekomidi engihlala kiyo, ngiyathemba bonyana koke okwenzeke namhlanje kunivule amehlo nabona bonyana nithumela abantu abanjani abazonijamela. Abantu abanithembisa izenzelwa kodwana bangafuni kwenziwe isabelomali. Bazazenza ngani? Umbuso uzakuba khona na? Akhe sibabuzeni lokho. Kwanjesi abantu baziveze tjhatjhalazi sababona.





Hon Chairperson, it is once more my privilege and honour to table before this august House a report on the Appropriation Bill, B3 of 2023, on behalf of the Select Committee on Appropriations. The committee adopted the report while the Democratic Alliance and the Freedom Front Plus rejected the report, and funny enough this time, the EFF reserved its position.

The Bill was tabled in Parliament by the Minister of Finance on 9 May 2023 and was referred to the select committee for concurrence on 8 June 2023. The Bill outlines various provisions that govern the utilisation of appropriated funds for the 2023-24t financial year, while acknowledging the current harsh economic realities.



Hon Chairperson, the committee received a brief from the National Treasury and further consulted with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO. The Money Bills Act, read with section 72 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, also mandates the committee to conduct public hearings and reports to the House on inputs received. This has been implemented by the report. The report has been added to Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATC, I will just summarise.



We have processed the Bill and made observations and thereafter came with recommendations. The recommendations are as follows: Upon gazetting the Appropriation Bill, B3 of 2023, which proposes the overall allocation, excluding direct charges of R1,08 trillion for the 2023-24 financial year across the national departments, the Minister of Finance should ensure that specific measures are taken to make sure

that these funds are utilised for their intended purpose and according to the approved departmental plans as any spending deviation resulting from poor planning is unacceptable.


National Treasury, together with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation should, within 60 days of the adoption of this report, ensure that measures to prevent irregular and fruitless expenditure are established across all departments as required by section 38(1)(c)(ii) of the Public Finance Management Act 1 of 1999 to safeguard the budget.



This include developing a clear irregular expenditure irregular expenditure register, which should be updated regularly as part of the necessary control measures. National Treasury, the Department of Public Service and Administration and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation should, within 60 days of adoption of this report, come up with a plan to ensure that officials who violate supply chain management and other public finance regulations are held accountable and even prosecuted.



Hon Chairperson and hon members, when the executive authority discovers any irregular expenditure according to section 38(H) together with section 81 of the Public Finance Management Act

No 1 of 1999, should be implemented immediately to address the irregularities. These provisions set out clear steps to consequence management, including disciplinary processes.


National Treasury, the Department of Public Service and Administration and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation should also, within 60 days of the adoption of this report, develop a clear plan to ensure that the internal audit personnel across departments are adequately capacitated by recruiting properly qualified people, and that independent audit committees are established to ensure that effective and efficient internal controls and risk management systems are well maintained and address noncompliance.



Department of Transport, together with the Mpumalanga provincial Department of Public Works, Roads and Transport should, within 90 days of the adoption of this report, develop a plan to ensure that the construction of the Moloto Corridor project between the Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Gauteng is prioritised, given the number of fatalities on the Moloto Road. This should include all other strategic road infrastructure projects that could assist government to address road accidents whilst improving transportation of goods and services.

National Treasury, together with the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities should, within 60 days of the adoption of this report, put measures in place to ensure that adequate resources are allocated for the implementation of the National Strategic Plan to ensure that gender issues, including those of the LGBTQIA+ community, are realised. The committee supports gender budgeting and urges the department to ensure that approved plans are aligned to allocations in order to realize this dream that we have been dreaming.



The Department of Health should, within 60 days of adoption of this report, urgently fast track the reintroduction of the State Liability Amendment Bill in order to make provision for periodic rather than once off payment for claims, while also ensuring that the necessary reforms are implemented for medical legal cases, including a new model for processing claims.



The Department of Basic Education should also follow suit, within 60 days of the adoption of the of the report, develop a clear plan to ensure that value for money earmarked for education is being realised, given that education is one of the largest budget items. The committee, therefore, is of the

view that a balance between adequate resources and the quality of teaching is needed in order to address the issue of the majority of Grade 4 learners reportedly not being able to read for meaning. Adequate resources are also required for the early childhood development programme as a foundation for the entire system.



Finally, the department must develop a clear plan to fast track the eradication of inappropriate structures, including ablution and sanitation facilities and overcrowding in schools. The National Treasury, together with the Department of Public Enterprises and the board of the South African Air Ways, SAA, should, within 60 days of the adoption of this report, develop measures to ensure that no public funds are used to bail out the SAA, having secured a strategic equity partner which owns 51% shares of the entity.



Hon Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank hon members who participated in the processing of this Bill as members and the support staff.





Ngithokoza khulu kuwe Sihlalo namalunga kaKhongolose. Ngiyathokoza.

Declarations of vote:


Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chair, the Bill before us should be rejected in its entirety. Just look at your report and read it, at least the detailed reasons why this Bill is flawed. There are

18 comments that highlight the committee’s concerns and 18 time-sensitive recommendations that need urgent attention.


The underspending in the South African Defence Force, SANDF, resulted in a breakdown in equipment and the evaporation of the ability of the President to snap his fingers when the police have failed and call on the SANDF to step into the bridge. And yes, while overspending on very important persons, VIP, protection continues, just look at the recent debacle where we sent a large group of protectors to sit on a plane in Poland. While that continues, the spending on the safety of normal South Africans remains insufficient.



I guarantee you that I would also not want to give the current Minister one cent more, but the reality is that the men and women in blue, hon Shaik deserve better. The budget that we are giving them now gives them broken-down vehicles and crumbling down buildings, the public of South Africa deserves more. Policing has been totally hollowed out, as the ANC has pushed it to the agenda of undermining the rule of law.

The basic education allocation is one-third of the higher education budget. How do you justify that, when only 7% of South Africans reach tertiary education? What is the governing party hoping to achieve with this? How do we expect to leave South Africans out of poverty if we do not prioritize education for all? Verwoerd’s agenda is being furthered by the ANC as the majority of South Africans receive an inferior education.



Yes, we are approving a budget today that prioritizes the safety of Ministers above other people. That keeps our people trapped in poverty, which apportions money for grants, and then sets the criteria for qualification so high that the grants cannot be claimed, and then the funds are re- appropriated to bail out failed state-owned enterprises. A budget that spends too much on paying the cadres that the governing party has placed throughout government drawing salaries, but not providing services to South Africans.



Do not misunderstand this, there are many committed hardworking bureaucrats, but the proportion of good to bad has been in decline for years now. And we are reaching a tipping point. Here we sit, hon members of the NCOP, we are going to

approve this because that is what you are being asked to vote on today.



Members, I believe that we should agree with the report all except the conclusion. The report tells us much of what is wrong with the budget and then suggests the adoption despite all its evidence. As Hon Aucamp said earlier, reject this budget in solidarity with the provinces that we say we represent, in solidarity with the people of South Africa, whom we say we represent. Vote no, we deserve a better budget, Mr Chair, otherwise, woza [come] 2024!



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Any other party wishing to make a declaration?



Mr M S MOLETSANE: Yes. It is Moletsane from the EFF, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who is that? Please announce yourself.



Mr M S MOLETSANE: It’s Moletsane, Chairperson. Unfortunately, I can’t open the video.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moletsane, please proceed.




Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Chairperson. The Economic Freedom Fighters reject the Appropriation Bill. The Appropriation Bill is a Bill that is introduced and passed by both Houses of Parliament every year, because it is a legal instrument that we, as elected Members of Parliament, allocate money to be spent by national departments.



This legal instrument is not a National Treasury legislation, but it is our legislation. The Minister of Finance, together with the National Treasury, are only interested to make proposals. As the Chairperson of the Standing Committee of the Appropriation had said, the Appropriation Bill allocates R1,1 trillion to national departments.



We rejected the Bill in its entirety because it continues to be based on the principles of budget cuts, austerity, and an obsession with reducing the budget deficit, while there are no practical and credible measures to use fiscal policy to support economic growth and provide services to our citizens at a time when the country is facing a load shedding crisis.

We reject the Appropriation Bill because there is no allocation of additional funding for generation and additional power. Because the plan is to ... [Inaudible.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moletsane, let’s try again.




Ms TAFENI: Chair, I would like to continue on behalf of hon Moletsane. The plan is to collapse Eskom. We reject this Bill because of the majority of our local municipalities ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moletsane, sorry. We have lost you and we will proceed to the next speaker. Hon Yunus, please proceed with the debate.



Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, it’s negativity, negativity, negativity. Overwhelmingly, we are drowning in it. Drowning. It’s not just blah, blah, blah. It’s blabber, blabber, blabber. If you listen to them, yes, of course, there are problems, even the ANC President says that. We set up the Zondo Commission of Inquiry, what party would do that? And now? Here it is. Look. Here it is, Chairperson. It’s all negativity.

Chairperson, you are the father of this House. Okay. I think you have a responsibility, it might be even constitutionally sound, to steer them into an institution for collective therapy. They are in a depression. They are in severe depression.



Chairperson, the House ends tomorrow. On Friday, as the father of this House, Chairperson, this is a family. it’s a house, okay? Take them to the local institution here and leave them there until they have the antidepressants and are redeemed.


Chairperson, if you listen to them, it is as if we are unable to speak right now. The mic system is not working, that we are unable to have lunch, that we are unable to have tea an hour ago. When we get out of here, we will have to walk back to our homes or villages. Because you see, the way they presented, there is no petrol available. That the cars cannot even go on the roads because the roads are not functional. And you know what, they won’t be able to take flights back home tomorrow, because the planes are not functioning, the airport is dishevelled yet on the other hand, just let them go 10 minutes from here, and they will see a world-class soccer stadium. Let them go 15 minutes from here, they can get even the party that loves this Louis Vuitton uniform in red, okay, they can get

Versace. You can go to Paris or London or wherever it’s the same thing. We are nowhere near the failed state they present. And, although primarily it is our responsibility as a governing party to rescue this country, it is all our responsibility. Instead, we get no concrete alternatives. Take the EFF, with due respect to Mr Moletsane. He is a lovely person, but can I ask him whether he drew his 2021 speech?

It’s the same with a few word changes.



Like the EFF, I can predict what Mr Dennis Ryder is going to say. I don’t even know whether he believes all that he says. But it’s utterly absurd for him to say that we have gone back to the Verwoerd in the area of education, look at the numbers in schools today, the percentages. Look at the numbers at the universities. What more can you ask for? It’s ridiculous to say that it’s surrealistic. We are saying let’s work together. Chairperson ... [Interjections.] ...









Mr Y I CARRIM: ... the opposition must oppose, but not opposition for the sake of opposition, not opposition as mindless as this. Every party, we have a national interest, no

matter what party we come from, regardless of our differences or views, especially in a House like the National Council of Provinces, where the party political line should be subdued to provincial and local interests.



Chairperson, look at John Steenhuisen, who appears on the British Broadcasting Corporation, BBC, and says the things that he does. Someone said to me, and it was not a person from ANC, but a journalist, how can this person say that this tone- deaf leader? They go out to destroy this country instead of working with us? That is not opposition. That is not progress.



Where is Colin Englin? Where is Stuart ... [Interjections.]...



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order!




Mr Y I CARRIM: ... where is Dean Smuts? Where are all those people ... [Inaudible.] ... to Helen Suzman? Thank you.



AN HON MEMBER: But your time is up.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Before you proceed to ... [Interjections.] ...

AN HON MEMBER: Chairperson, that was three minutes 59 seconds. Watch the clock.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... I will now allow a 15-second window for delegates who are outside of the Chamber and a Virtual Platform to join the House.



Debate concluded.



Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.


Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.




Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.


The Council adjourned at 17:29.