Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 28 Mar 2023


No summary available.



Watch video here: Plenary (Hybrid)


The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let me remind delegates that the Rules and processes do apply to this virtual sitting. Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to make the following announcements. The virtual sitting constitutes the sitting of the National Council of Provinces. Delegates in the virtual sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

For purposes of the quorum all delegates who have logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present. Delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak. Delegates must ensure that their microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted.

All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room. The interpretation facility is active. Delegates are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.

Hon delegates, I have been informed and notified that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice except the motion on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip. I have also been informed that hon Nkosi will move the motion on behalf of the Chief Whip.

(Draft Resolution)

Ms N E NKOSI: Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Council:

That the Council resolves that Rule 218(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of Second Adjustments Appropriation, 2022-23 Financial Year, Bill [B4 -2023] National Assembly section 77.

Question put: That the Motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.


(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I now put Vote No 5 – Home Affairs. I’ve been informed that the following political parties would like to make declarations of vote in terms of Rule 78. We will start with the FF Plus, hon de Bruyn?

Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chairperson, hon de Bruyn is just struggling with connectivity. Can we proceed to the next member?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will proceed, hon Dlamini?

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms M DLAMINI: Thank you, Chairperson, the Economic Freedom Fighters rejects the proposed budget vote for the Department of Home Affairs. We reject the budget of a department which declared a war on queues in 2018, yet today five years later, our people are still queuing at the crack of dawn outside offices, in the hope of being assisted.

Home Affairs offices still experience unstable systems and network disruptions and when their offices are operational, the service received from the staff is often appalling, with constant uncoordinated engagements with the public, which leads to even more confusion.

We reject the budget of a department which still offers limited operating times of services, with uneven distribution of offices in townships and rural areas. The Department of Home Affairs still faces challenges of corruption, fraud and high incidence of fraudulent marriages and identity documents, with Asylum seekers still experiencing numerous challenges with its online system. There exists a lack of leadership at

Home Affairs and Mr Motsoaledi has no capacity to lead a department such as Home Affairs.

As the EFF, we therefore reject the budget of a department which deprives our people of access to basic services. Thank you.

Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Chair, thank you for the opportunity, Honourable members, if ever the saying robbing Peter to pay Paul had to apply to something like the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill, I urge you to look no further.

In this case, Peter is an analogy for the Poor in South Africa who are being robbed to pay for all the years of financial mismanagement by an incompetent ANC Government, who would in this case obviously be Paul.

Let’s see the wood from the trees here – R300 Million rand is now proposed to bolster Represented Political Parties Funding due to unspent Social Relief of Distress Grant funding within the Social Development Vote.

Let me say this again in plain and simple terms so that it is very clear what is happening here. Even with so few parties

actually following the noble guidelines of the Political Party Funding Act in the interest of improving transparency and accountability, and I’m excluding the EFF here, this very Act and its principles of divulging donors must have scared many of the ANC financiers back to the recesses of obscurity wherein they operate.

So what does the ANC do when they can’t get funding from donors?

It’s easy, just make it more difficult for the poorest of the poor to qualify for Social relief of Distress Grants, that very essential R350 per month that has to feed many hungry monthly in the poorest of the poor areas in a distressed and nearly non-existent economy, also brought to you by, might I add, courtesy of decades of ANC looting and mismanagement.

Once you made some savings due to more stringent qualifying criteria; let’s be exact here, R3,8 billion, just to take some of that money, let’s make it about R300 million, and add that to the already substantial pot you have allocated to political parties previously.

Fellow members, is this not typical of the ANC – take money from the poor so that you can continue duping the poor in voting for you with empty promises so you can stay in power longer to rob the poor more in the future?

The Democratic Alliance does not support this Bill and I urge other parties to do the same – or suffer the consequences in 2024 when the voters decide for you. Thank you, Chair.

Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, Chairperson. The ANC supports the appropriation for budget Vote 5 of the Department of Home Affairs.

The issuance of identity documents is a guarantor of the right to citizenship to our people and a sense of national pride.
The department also plays a critical role in providing travel documents to both South Africans and foreign nationals. These travel documents assist in facilitating movement of people between our country and other counties of the world. This contributes to economic initiatives such as tourism and investment.

We are aware of the many challenges that our people have raised with us regarding services at Home Affairs offices. Our

people are concerned about the long queues at Home Affairs offices, they are concerned about the backlog of application of documents as well as the network distribution that often happen in the offices. We are however encouraged in the acknowledgement that these concerns are at the centre of policy priorities of the Department of Home Affairs for this financial year.

The department, as part of interventions, will be recruiting additional young people to assist in the modernisation of the records of the Home Affairs dating many years ago. The department will also focus on ICT modernisation to ensure the efficiency of services in its offices, as well as to deal with the challenges of network disruptions.

We are also encouraged in the knowledge that the department has launched a programme on war on queues. The war on queues include the various interventions I already outlined earlier. This includes the issue of ICT modernisation and the rollout of the footprint of Home Affairs offices across the country.

Home Affairs will embark on an ID campaign across the country through the mobile truck units as well as the visits to schools to assist learners with their application of identity

documents. We are encouraged by these initiatives. We therefore urge our people, especially young people, to take advantage of these measures and ensure that they apply for identity documents.

As the NCOP we shall play our robust oversight role to ensure that the commitments made by the Department of Home Affairs, as outlined in their Budget, are implemented. The ANC supports the Appropriation for the Budget Vote of the Department of Home Affairs and we appreciate the work that has been done by Minister Motsoaledi. Thank you, Chairperson.


Mnr M A P DE BRUYN: Agb Voorsitter, verlede jaar het ons die beloftes van hierdie department oor die implementering van nuwe stelsels en geriewe om te verseker dat die werksaamhede van hierdie departement verbeter, aangehoor. ’n Jaar later is die dienslewering van hierdie departement egter steeds van so ’n aard dat die rye en die wag tye van dokumentasies net langer en langer geword het.


It is therefore no wonder that the South Africans refer to this department as HELL AFFAIRS rather than Home affairs.

We’ve had complaints from the public stating that they waited more than 8 weeks for passports as a result of system failures, loadshedding and general incompetence.

Hon Chair, rather reduce the 300 million allocated for political parties, of which the ANC gets the most - more than
160 million - and appropriate the funds to rather serve our people and not our politicians. It’s not South African residents’ responsibility to bail out the ANC, it’s the ANC government’s responsibility to serve our people.

Therefore, the Freedom Front Plus will not be in support. Thank you

Declarations of votes made on behalf of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Democratic Alliance, African National Congress and Freedom Front Plus.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put

Declarations of Vote:

Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Chair, since defaulting on its obligations in 2020, Land Bank has received various bailouts totalling R10 billion. The additional bailout of R5 Billion that is now given to Land Bank in this adjustment appropriation therefore brings the total amount of bailouts to the Land Bank to R15 Billion in the last three years.

It will be futile to keep on providing bailouts to Land Bank without ensuring that there are proper structural reforms as well as a long term succession plan being implemented at senior management level at Land Bank.

One of the major problems with regard to Land Bank’s performance was due to its loan asset portfolio being funded entirely through short term debt that was raised. The Land Bank business model must change in order to improve its ability of long term capital raising instead of all the short term loans that they obtained in recent years.

A further problem that will not be fixed by another bailout, is that there is absolutely no continuity with regard to the approach of the chief executive officers, CEO’s, that were appointed at the Land Bank.

In 2015, the CEO that was appointed came from Development Bank South Africa, DBSA. The next CEO came from the Johannesburg Market, followed by a transactional banker from Standard Bank who then became the CEO. All of them having different backgrounds and therefore different approaches in trying to solve the issues at Land Bank.

As Members of Parliament, we must ask ourselves why the last two CEO’s of Land Bank did not even complete their terms?
Due to the poor confidence in the Land Bank, farmers with the ability to pay back their loans prefer to rather obtain loans from other commercial banks, leaving Land Bank with a large number of their remaining clients that are not able to repay their loans.

Hon Chairperson, further to this, expropriation of land without compensation is going to place the final nail in the bank’s coffin.

Chairperson, instead of continuous bailouts, Land Bank must rather be supported and steered in the right direction in order to restore market confidence in the bank. It needs to display to the market and to investors that it is serious

about implementing the required structural reforms that I have just mentioned.

The DA does not support this adjustment appropriation to National Treasury. Thank you Chairperson.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote for National Treasury. We reject the budget of a department responsible for managing South Africa’s national government finances and to ensure transparency, accountability and sound financial controls in the management of public finances, yet has done very little to combat corruption.

We reject the budget of a department that has not introduced any believable policies to reduce poverty and vulnerability among the country’s most marginalised. And has failed to present any plans to collect maximum revenue from now-booming online trading platforms

The National Treasury has demonstrated that they are not interested in building robust capacity. Instead, loss of revenue has had tremendous consequences for the economy, including negative impact on economic growth. We reject this budget. Thank you Chairperson.

Mr E Z NJADU: Thank you Chairperson. On behalf of the ANC, National Treasury Budget Vote 8. The National Treasury is an essential department of the state because of its role in shaping the macroeconomic framework and fiscal policy outlook.

This is critical because it speaks to the state's resource base to advance its constitutional obligations and support the programme of government in realizing the Bill of Rights. The Treasury responds to a critical function of funding governments priorities and most importantly, policies of the ANC as a governing party.

The second adjustment for vote 8 of the National Treasury is to fund the Land and Agricultural Development Bank of South Africa purchase of equity. The Land Bank has a major role in our country's socio-economic transformation and economic development.

Agriculture is a critical sector which is a major driver of job creation. The financial sustainability of the Land Bank is critical as it supports economic development and growth. The R5 billion allocation to the Land Bank will contribute to supporting the Land Bank to meet all its financial commitments sustainably and to sustain the support it provides for various

farming activities. What becomes critical is that the allocation made should be accounted for and clear conditions should be set and monitored to realise the impact envisaged by the allocation.

Our fiscus has had to bailout several state entities, which are confronted by various challenges which can be subjective and objective. We must recognise that these bailouts have a negative impact on other key service delivery and developmental projects, such as the provision of basic services. We must play our oversight role as this House to monitor the progress of this significant allocation to the Land Bank.

We support the adjustment as it contributes to the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, which is critical for economic development and job creation. We support the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 10 — Public Enterprises — put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Chair, according to this report the purpose of this appropriation was to drive investment, productivity and transformation in the department’s portfolio of state-owned companies and unlock growth, driving industrialization, job creation and skills development.


Agb Voorsitter, dit klink baie indrukwekkend op papier maar ons almal weet die doel hiervan was en is niks anders as om weereens mislukte en wanfunksionerende staatsentiteite ’n reddingsboei te gee nie. Entiteite soos die Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens, SAL, wat weereens ’n biljoen ontvang het, saam met ander entiteite soos die Poskantoor, Transnet, ensovoorts het die regering van soveel geld beroof wat eerder op die welstand van ons mense bestee kon word, as om dooie koeie weer nuwe lewe te probeer inblaas. Daarom sal geen begroting of die aanpassing daarvan in hierdie departement ooit na behore in staatsbelang bestee word nie solank die ANC in beheer is nie. Daarom sal die VF Plus dit nie ondersteun nie. Dankie.

Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote on the Public Enterprises. We reject the budget of a

department which is responsible for the deliberation failures of Eskom’s experience over a decade.

For the crisis facing Eskom, it is part of this department’s broader plan to cripple the company to such an extend that it is entirely reliant on private power producers.

We reject the budget department responsible for our people living in darkness even though time and time again we were promised that electricity crisis will be resolved and that loadshedding will be a thing of the past.

Eskom, one of our most priced state-owned enterprises, SOEs, has become the joke of the country with blackouts every other day.

Under the leadership of this department our country’s state- owned entities have gone down the drain and have been used for cadre deployment and jobs for pals.

The department is also responsible for the poor performance of the SA Post Office in delivering grant payments.

Small and medium businesses are shutting down their doors due to the rolling blackouts. Our people are falling prey to criminals and the lives of ordinary citizens are interrupted on a daily basis.

Chairperson, as the EFF we condemn the incompetence of the corruption of the ANC and we reject this budget. Thank you.

Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson and hon members, if we were to conduct a survey of who amongst all state entities always approaches National Treasury, either for a bailout or a government guarantee, I have no doubt in my mind SA Airways, SAA, might top that list.

SAA has, once again, asked for the taxpayer to fork-out R1 billion to keep itself afloat.

The question to be answered: For how long shall we allow the ANC cadres deployed at the SOEs literally running down SOEs such as SAA to the ground?

Giving money to SAA is throwing money you don’t have in a black bottomless pit with no prospects of any returns in investment.

One wonders, how much of this money will make its way to the connected ANC benefactors and eventually end up at Luthuli House in order for you to pay staff salaries?

SAA has failed our country at a massive cost to the taxpayer. I have said it before and I will say again: Is it not time as the country to exit what is not our core competency, let business do what they know best?

Whilst SAA is limping from one bailout to the other, privately owned airlines such Airlink, FlySafair and Cemair are in the air, which is a further testament that SAA should be privatized if we are to see better results.

The DA cannot support this Adjustment Appropriation Bill. Thank you.

Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, good afternoon to you and good afternoon to the members. It goes without saying that the ANC supports this particular Bill on Public Enterprises.

Firstly, we are responsible for governance in this country; and secondly, we are a leader of society, we have to make this country work, against all odds, because we have a duty and

responsibility which is bestowed upon us by the masses of our country and that their expectation is no less than us doing what they expect.

Therefore, the ANC supports the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill for following two reasons:

Firstly, it is not an exaggeration to say that Eskom is confronted with a liquidity shortage which is gradually a liquidity crisis and we are making that cogent observation and we are coming up with cogent proposals to that particular issue as a solution.

This liquidity shortage has become so severe for Eskom due to the exploitative character of bond holders that have been able, systematically, to appropriate directly as part of the process of settling debt obligation, a portion of Eskom’s revenue at higher than normal profit.

Liquidity shortage is slowly paralyzing Eskom’s financial efforts to conduct reliability maintenance to reduce unplanned breakdowns and extend the lifeline of the existing power plants.

Worse, liquidity shortage has forced Eskom to cut back on expanding the transmission network to bring more energy sources onto the grid.

While the ANC-led government has attempted to rescue Eskom and ameliorate the utility’s liquidity shortage through debt guarantees, the intervention has been limited as Eskom constantly seeks emergency borrowing to address its struggles to supply uninterrupted electricity.

As a result of this liquidity shortage, the ANC-led government has introduced new methods capable of ensuring that bond holders and other creditors to Eskom receive their money back without crippling reliability maintenance and the expansion of the transmission network.

An extraordinary method is the National Treasury’s total debt relief arrangement for Eskom, of R254 billion, which is intended to allow the utility a space to prioritise capital expenditure in transmission and distribution networks as well as the maintenance of the existing power stations to improve availability of electricity.

This proves that the ANC-led government is willing to make gigantic decisions on resolving the energy crisis and putting an end to loadshedding, as the most immediate and pressing challenges.

Secondly, liquidity and solvency crises have proved fatal for the SA Airways. The proximate cause of this crisis is the state capture; as State Security Agency, SSA, market share collapse due to mismanagement and corruption in the national carrier during the state capture.

The ANC-led government found it increasingly difficult to use public funds to support SAA. Thus, as a strategic equity partnership was sought as the collapse of SAA would have been a blunder of colossal proportion.

However, liquidity and solvency crisis in SAA have not disappeared completely as the national carrier still needs to settle the business rescue plan obligation.

Considering this, the National Treasury has appropriated R1 billion for SAA to settle the business rescue plans obligation.

It is, therefore, clear to us that we cannot afford to privatise either Eskom and SAA because these are national assets that must be maintained to serve and service our people at all material times. Failure to so, if we privatise, it would mean that the majority of our people are cut out of electricity supply, and yet to us electricity supply is one of the basic rights that must be given to our people.

Therefore, the ANC says this Bill must go ahead. Thank you very much.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, is there no opportunity for a declaration on the Bill as such, before we vote?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, no! Please remember that ... [Interjections.] ... the declarations have been done earlier on. so, we are now passed the declarations, as we speak ...

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, with all due respect ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... the declarations were done and the person who spoke on behalf of the DA was hon Nhanha.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, he spoke on a specific vote. You mean that the votes ... [Interjections.] ... and then ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, what are you urging me to do?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I’m asking: Why didn’t we do a declaration on the total Bill? We did declarations on the votes, now we are voting on the whole Bill. And normally there is a declaration on the Bill. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are on Vote 10, hon Labuschagne, and Vote 10 is Public Enterprises.

Unfortunately, hon Labuschagne, we can’t go back. We are now voting.


Vote agreed to.

Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration – put

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote of Public Service and Administration. We reject the budget of a department whose aim is to promote ethical public service and to prevent and combat corruption, yet is notorious for doing the exact opposite. We reject the budget of a department which has, on several occasions been compromised, as civil servants conduct business with the state. The department has failed to monitor various government departments as we still have many vacancies in key positions in various sectors, instability in key positions and ineffectiveness performance management in various sectors.

We reject the budget of a department which has failed our people after 20 years of democracy, as our people are still faced with racial and spatial inequality in the workplace, in our country, and in many public and private sectors most key positions are still male dominated, with women underrepresented. The department lacks overall model of public administration enforcement standards and ethics to address the skills deficiency and development mode to professionalise the public service. We reject the budget.

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chair, allow me on behalf of the ANC to make a declaration indeed, the Department of Public Service and Administration is a critical department that contributes to building capable developmental and ethical state that responds to our country’s social and economic needs. The department is currently focusing on professionalising the public service, which is an essential component of advancing Batho Pele principles. Therefore, the modernisation of the state in the current epoch is paramount as the changing world and the rapid increase of digitisation bring about new opportunities and threats for our public administration. The ANC has resolved that the advancement of e-government which will bring about enhanced capabilities to enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of the state must happen now.

We are, as a country, confronted with high levels of maladministration which threatens to erode the state’s capability. For the Department of Public Service and Administration to strengthen compliance with legislation and ensuring that public officials appointed to meet the requirements and function within the legislative framework is an instrument the department should ensure. Therefore, the low level of compliance and slow consequence management actions have the capacity to weaken the state. Through the

department’s work, positive developments and continuous improvements are currently being realised.

The Second Adjustments Appropriation largely funded government services, access and improvement focusing on the Centre for Public Service Innovation operations. This is a critical programme of the department to innovate ways to improve the functioning of the state continuously. Another adjustment is to strengthen the department’s administration which is the anchor of the department’s work.

Therefore, the ANC has called for this year to be a year of decisive action to advance the interests of the people and to take decisive measures and serve the interests of the people. The government should strengthen the administration in order to ensure that indeed, we strengthen the administrative system and ensure that there is a continuous capacity development within the public service and also create room for the succession planning and career development path within the public service. We therefore as the ANC support the Second Adjustments Appropriation. Thank you, national Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The Council divided.

Bells rung for 15 seconds.


Vote agreed to.

Vote No 19 – Social Development – Put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson, the Economic Freedom Fighters rejects budget 19 for Social Development. We reject a department that has failed to create a social security system that will lift our people out of poverty. This department has made no attempt to introduce a universal basic income, although this has been called for on several occasions.
Instead, it celebrates 18 million South Africans receiving social grant, with another 11 million relying on R350 grant, which does very little to meet the needs of our people.

Social factors such as healthcare, education, and transportation, which plays a vital role in the economic development of our people is lacking in our townships and in

our rural areas. The Economic Freedom Fighters rejects the proposed budget vote for social development. Thank you.

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I rise today to express my concern about the state of social welfare in our country. The recent report by National Treasury and the Financial and Fiscal Commission has highlighted the issue of unspent social relief of distress grant funds within the Department of Social Development, amounting to R3,8 billion and the further R81 million from the South African Social Security Agency, SASSA, administrative support services.

While the means testing process has endeavour to implement better disbursement of funds by trying to eliminate corruption and maladministration. It has also led to the progressive erosion in the number of people accessing the grant. This is happening in the midst of persistent unemployment and worsening socioeconomic condition disproportionately affecting mostly the poor and vulnerable. This also indicates that National Treasury has failed to pay attention to the grants administrative challenges leading to a significant underspending. And such measures should not be taken at the expense of the most vulnerable and destitute beneficiaries.

The Democratic Alliance is not supporting the adjustment as we believe that the money should be given to the poor instead of bailing out state-owned entity entities. We are concerned about the lack of social service practitioners being employed, the lack of skills, training programmes, and the inability of government to ensure employment opportunities. The money could have been better spent within the department and made a huge difference in the lives of the destitute.

Hon Chairperson, it is clear that we need to give more to support our most vulnerable and disadvantaged citizens. The Social Relief of Distress Grant, SRD Grant, has provided some relief, but it is not merely enough. We must continue to explore options for permanent solution and ensure that the funds allocated to these programmes are used efficiently and effectively. We must also prioritize the needs of the poor and vulnerable over the interests of state-owned entities. I thank you.

Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chairperson. The ANC supports the Second Amendment Appropriation Bill as tabled in the National Council of Provinces as it seeks to respond to the protection against vulnerability by creating an enabling environment for the provision of the comprehensive, integrated and sustainable

social development services. This address the socio-economic challenges that are widening inequality by advancing social protection for economically marginalized and impoverished South Africans.

The ANC remains committed to improve people’s lives through poverty alleviation and building a caring and self-reliant generation. A rejection of the Bill as presented is in our view a disregard for the reality that ours is an equal society where millions rely on social services to support their lives. This social ... [Interjections.] ...


... yima ke, iyandibhida netheknoloji wena.

USIHLALO WENCOP: Jonga kakuhle.


Look at the notes very well there. Okay.

Ms N NDONGENI: The ANC remains committed to improving people’s lives through poverty alleviation and building a caring and self-reliant generation. A rejection of the Bill as presented is in our view a disregard for the reality that ours is an

equal society where millions will rely on social services to support their lives. Indeed, these social services as delivered by the government are the affirmation for many that the South African government cares.

The second adjustment has resulted in a decline of R3,7 billion due to the changes in re-application process requirements for the Social Relief of Distress Grant from the South African Social Security Agency. This adjustment does not negatively impact the recipient of the social relief of distress. The social relief of the distress is a ground break intervention, which ensures that South Africans experience abject poverty and sleep with a hungry stomach. The challenge that confronts the nation and economy is the rising cost of living which impacts the poor in the main. We must place economic development and transformation in the centre of self- liberation.

The mandate of the Department of Social Development is to provide social protection services and lead government efforts to forge partnership through which vulnerable individuals, groups, and communities become capable and self-reliant participants in their development.

Hon Chair, I wish to categorically state that the position of the ANC on social transformation is in the centre of the department’s official mandate. The bias towards this country’s working class, poor and otherwise marginalised people remains the cornerstone of the ANC revolutionary policy position. I thank you.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 30 – Communication and Digital Technologies - put

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J MAGWALA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budget Vote on Communication and Digital Technologies. The department is mandated to play a key role on fostering social and economic participation of our people through digital transformation. Yet, it has had an uninformed approach in the way in which it communicates government decisions and plans, and how it responds during the times of crisis.

The department has on several occasion been found wanting during the key moments when solid communication was required from the government, the end result being poor handling of critical intervention. The department has also been found

wanting in making our people aware of cybersecurity threat and in dealing with such threats, and the country is left wondering as to what exactly the government is doing to deal with key challenges such as load shedding, high unemployment and violent crimes.

All these key communication messages which the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, ought to communicate on behalf of the government to ensure that there is uniformity and standardised ways of communication. We reject this Budget Vote, Chairperson.

Mr M NHANHA: Hon members, it is sad that once again SA Post Office went to National Treasury with cap in hand asking for yet another bail out of R2,4 billion. What makes me even sadder, the SA Post Office, Sapo, has quietly closed another
92 post offices with 50 of those closed by unpaid landlords.

This has led to an inconvenience to thousands of South Africans who saw their only access point for their grants and other postal services being shut down with no alternative in place.

If one’s nearest Post Office is being shut down, taking a taxi to another post office could cost the recipients of the Social

Relief of Distress Grant - commonly known as R350 grants - a substantial portion of the already meagre grant.

With South Africa’s unemployment rate lingering at over 30%, the SA Post Office staff were not spared. It is reported that the SA Post Office wants to reduce staff salaries by up 40% and job cuts of about 6 000. One can only hope that senior executives at the entity will begin by reducing their own fat salaries first and retrench some amongst themselves before hitting hard on poor workers.

What is even more alarming, this bailout was not brought before the select committee and I am advised that it was never brought before the portfolio committee in the National Assembly as well. Members of Parliament are expected to approve a bailout yet the Sapo has not appeared before us to present a plan of how the money will be spent. We are essentially required to give the Sapo a blank cheque, so they can spend the taxpayer’s money as and how they see fit.

South Africans including staff at the post office are made to suffer for the misdeeds and poor management of the SA Post Office by incompetent cadres deployed by Luthuli House.

In good conscience, the DA cannot support this Vote. Thank you.

Ms T P MAMOROBELA: The ANC supports Budget Vote 30 - Communications and Digital Technologies. Our support for this Budget Vote is premised on the fact that the allocations made directly speak to the department’s service delivery imperatives, particularly the upliftment and digital inclusion of under developed areas across our country.

To this effect, the department is facilitating the rollout of

3 000 community Wi-Fi hotspots across 16 districts and connecting 50 000 households on fibre-to-the-home and Wi-Fi-to the-home technologies. In addition, through the SA Connect programme, our government is going to roll-out 14 024 community Wi-Fi hotspots in the 2023-24 financial year across
16 districts. The other 19 515 community Wi-Fi hotspots will be rolled out in the 2024-25 financial year in 36 districts. This will be towards reaching the target of 33 000 community Wi-Fi hotspots that will enable South Africans to have universal access to the internet by 2025. A total of
R3,8 billion has been allocated for both phase 1 and 2 over the next three years.

This gives impetus to the need to speedily conclude the country’s broadcasting digital migration from analogue transmission. This will enable for the roll-out of high-speed broadband of 4G and 5G networks, bring more channels to South Africans, create more employment for content creation as well as reduce the cost of data. Analogue switch off can no longer be delayed through court interdicts, rather, it must be fast- tracked in the four remaining provinces, namely Gauteng, Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, and Eastern Cape. We are encouraged as the ANC to see that 44% of set-top box installers are women, sithi malibongwe! More women must be able to infiltrate this predominantly male dominated space.

As I conclude, I would like to express that the ANC welcomes the additional allocation of R2,4 billion towards the SA Post Office. While it does not solve all the challenges at the Sapo but it will take the entity forward. The Sapo is a critical service channel for our people, in particular those in rural and remote areas, and it is critical to the repositioning of the Postbank into a viable, inclusive and transformative state bank. Once again, we support this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chair.

Division demanded.

Council divided.



Agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.


Ms D G MAHLANGU: [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m sure the Table will assist us there to trace hon Mahlangu and make sure that she is connected.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: My apologies, Chair I am back. May I continue?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Maybe I should close the video, Chairperson, with your permission?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, if you have a problem it is better to listen to you than have difficulties.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It seems like there is a problem with the connection there. Please speak as close to the microphone as possible, and speak as loud as possible but as slow as possible as well.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: We are tabling this report ... Okay, can I continue now? Can you hear me now, Chairperson?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I can hear you. Please proceed. Please go ahead. Qhuba [continue]. I will ask the Table again to please assist.

Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, may I suggest a three minute break while they are trying to sort out the technicalities?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dangor, your suggestion may indeed be a very good intervention. I will ask hon members to please not switch off but to ... [Interjections.] maybe have some very short break of about three minutes.


Mr M DANGOR: Chairperson, may I suggest that in terms of efficiency, effectiveness and the economy ... [Inaudible.][Interjections.]

Ms D G MAHLANGU: I am using a different gadget now, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed. Hon members, let us come back. Please give us your attention. Hon Mahlangu, please proceed.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, the committee adopted the report while the DA and the Freedom Front Plus rejected the report and the EFF reserved their position on the report. We are tabling this report in a year of decisive action to advance people’s interests. We believe that we should work together to ensure that we help our people find ways to cope with the challenges they face, including the high cost of

living caused by globally high energy prices, climate change disasters and load shedding amongst others. This is no time for political points scoring.

Hon Chairperson and members, section 213(2) of the Constitution of the Republic provides that money may be withdrawn from the National Revenue Fund only in terms of appropriation by an Act of Parliament. The Minister of Finance tabled a Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill on 22 February 2022 together with other Bills to cater for spending pressures in certain government entities.

Section 12(15a) of the Money Bills and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009 provides that after National Assembly passed the Adjustments appropriation Bill the Bill must be referred to the National Council of Provinces and referred to the Select Committee on Appropriations for concurrence. The National Assembly passed and transmitted this Bill to the NCOP on 23 March 2023.

Hon Chairperson and hon members, to facilitate public participation and involvement, and in compliance with section
72 of the Constitution, an advert was published on the website of Parliament and social media accounts inviting the general

public and all interested stakeholders to make written submissions and comments on the Bill.

In addition to the National Treasury briefing the committee on the contents of the Bill the committee was also brief by the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, on 15 March 2023. During a public hearing held jointly with the Standing Committee on Appropriations on
14 March 2023 the Congress of South African Trade Unions, COSATU, made an oral submission. During these public hearings the committee observed some key issues and made the following recommendations including the submissions and briefings.

The Department of Public Enterprises and the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies together with the National Treasury should ensure that the R23 billion allocated in the Bill is utilised for the intended purpose and that a proper internal control environment is created to ensure that these funds are utilised effectively to enhance the implementation of turnaround strategy of ailing entities once approved and gazetted. Further, shareholder departments should ensure that the conditions prescribed for these bailouts are fully complied with and that clear penalties or steps for consequence management are explicitly outlined as part of the

conditions so that clear and appropriate actions is taken for noncompliance.

The committee is of the view that given the level of fiscal risk posed by some of the state owned entities in the already constrained government budget, and the fact that each bailout increases debt service cost to the detriment of social service delivery programmes, government should take decisive action to reinvent, restructure, remodel or even terminate some of the entities bearing in mind the structural nature, role and functions these entities play in the larger economy. Business models and entities should be positioned to adopt to the ever changing patterns of technology and innovations to keep up with the demand.

Hon Chairperson, the committee implores the Department of Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury to expedite the work to device a single remuneration framework for the public sector. A progress report should be presented in the next budget cycle and Parliament will continue to monitor this progress because we follow the money.

Whilst the committee welcomes the improved means test for better disbursement of the social relief of distress grant to

eliminate corruption and maladministration, the committee is of the view that the Department of Social Development, the South African Social Security Agency and National Treasury should ensure that such measures are not taken at the expense of the most vulnerable and needy beneficiaries.

Furthermore, the committee believes that the discussions around the basic income grant should continue amongst all the relevant stakeholders to find a permanent solution to the growing unemployment and poverty. The National Treasury and the Department of Public Enterprise should expedite the process of reviewing the South African Air Ways strategic equity partner agreement to prevent future fiscal obligations. The shareholder department should ensure that the conditions prescribed for the R1 billion ... [Inaudible.] Parliament will continue to monitor the progress.

The National Treasury should ensure that the appointed Independent Task Team fast track the assessment of Eskom’s operations, maintenance and performance to determine the conditions for its debt relief. The committee calls on the Department of Public Enterprise, National Treasury and Eskom to ensure that all measures announced by the executive to address the ongoing energy crisis are implemented with speed,

and given the negative impact of load shedding in the economy and service delivery and that this does not negatively impact on local government’s ability to raise revenues through electricity tariffs.

The Parliamentary Budget Office should expedite its research project on all state owned entities concerning contingent liabilities, funding needs and whether the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, requirements are still realistic within the current framework.

Whilst the committee welcome and appreciate the submission made by the Congress of South African Trade Unions during the public hearing on the Bill, it wishes to encourage all other civil society organisations to continue participating in parliamentary public hearings to ensure that their meaningful inputs are placed before the committee.

The committee reiterates its previous recommendation that the Department of Communication and Digital Technologies and the SA Post Office, SAPO, must address all challenges facing the entity and ensure that a clear plan is developed and implemented to address the issue of the workers. The issue of statutory payment, medical aid scheme and pension fund are

addressed. A progress report should be submitted to Parliament within 60 days after the adoption of this report by this House.

In conclusion, hon Chairperson, please allow me to thank members of the committee for availing themselves and being committed in making sure that we are doing the work that we are supposed to do. The stakeholders that participated and the committee support staff because without them we wouldn’t be able to achieve what we have achieved. Without all these role players ... [Inaudible.] ... recommends to this august House to adopt this report with amendments. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.


Ngiyathokoza begodu ngiyacolisa ngalokhu okwenzekileko.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before we proceed to vote, hon members, I shall allow political parties an opportunity to make their declaration of vote in terms of Rule 78. That is if they so wish. To remind hon members, three minutes maximum per declaration. Thank you very much. Any declaration?

Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson on a point of order. Can I just clarify, Chair, we are dealing with the report now and not yet with the Bill. Should it not just be provinces that are called up to declare at this stage? Unless I am confused, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, the question that you are putting in front of the House is the acceptance of this report. I am not sure, hon Ryder, on what point are you rising?

Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, I am rising on point that ... and I am not surprised that there is some confusion because the report and the Bill have both been lumped together in one order on the Order Paper. I think it would have been more appropriate to have the report first then to have the schedule and then to vote on the Bill. But the issue is that provinces should have an opportunity to vote and declare on the report and then we should move on to a separate declaration process and ultimately vote, which would be individual votes, on the Bill itself.

The CHAIRPERSONOF THE NCOP: I sympathise with the point that you are raising, hon Ryder, but the fact of the matter is that we are being called upon to agree to the Bill. There is a

point that I am coming to, and therefore if there are no declarations we will move on.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, hon Labuschagne.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Are you now saying that the declaration that you are calling for it’s on the Bill itself?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, on the Bill itself. I don’t want, hon Labuschagne, when we are voting to raise the point that you raised earlier on. If you want to make a declaration please do so now.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The DA will do a declaration and hon Ryder will do the declaration.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chair, hon members, if you cut through the smoke and mirrors, this Bill is applying money to three different areas: pay the salaries of government workers; bail out SAA, the Land Bank and the Post Office; and give
R300 million to political parties.

Members of this House clapped for Minister Tito Mboweni when he said that we need to take steps to reduce the public wage bill. Like trained seals clapping in the hope that your handler tosses you a sardine. What has changed that you now clap for a new Finance Minister who has broken that promise? Note that this is not even for the compensation currently making headlines. That money still needs to be found.

The Land Bank, SAA and the Post Office are SOEs in serious trouble. While SAA is reportedly operating profitably now under their new structure, the takeover deal remains shrouded in secrecy, not leaving South Africans feeling comfortable.
The Land Bank and the Post Office on the other hand are not demonstrating improvements or any future prospects of success, or even a plan.

It is noted that Mr Paul Mashitile did a terrible job as Treasurer General in the ANC. With salaries paid late, PAYE and statutory deductions not paid across and a general inability to balance the books, it is no wonder that the ANC had to find somewhere else to deploy him. However, does the sudden, poorly timed movement of R300 million to the political party fund even meet the legislative criteria for an adjustment appropriation? Even if it does, at a time when

South Africans are suffering, this adjustment is distasteful in the extreme.

This brings us to where the funds are coming from. While some of the funding for these allocations is coming from tax received above expectations, R3,7 billion is being taken away from the money that we initially budgeted for the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, grant, those R350 grants that we were desperately told was needed for our people to survive. Yes, members, we are taking money away from people living in poverty, giving it to millionaire managers who work for government, to SOEs that were plundered and mismanaged under state capture and we are giving it to political parties.

Are you members prepared to go back to your constituencies and tell them this? If not, it is best that you vote against this Bill. Thank you.


Mr S F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, aanpasbegrotings is standaardpraktyk. Dit is egter ’n jammerte dat dit as uitkoms gesien word, wanneer staatsentiteite jaar na jaar geplunder en in die afgrond in bestuur word deur persone wat ’n politieke

mandaat najaag, sonder om beste besigheidspraktyke in ag te neem.

Die Landbank, byvoorbeeld, het sedert 2020 tot November 2022 reeds R10 miljard in reddingsboeie ontvang en nou, met hierdie aanpasbegroting, nog R5 miljard. R15 miljard in drie jaar!
Verskonings wat gegee word is swak leierskap, politieke inmenging en uitdagings met die raad, en die belastingbetaler moet maar net opdok.


How is it possible for any company to cut your paying client base in half, focusing on handouts, knowing that new beneficiaries don’t necessarily have the required securities, if they default on their payments, and expect to still be profitable? And this in the name of transformation.

The Land Bank’s downgrading even effects the loan status and credibility of the Development Bank of South Africa, since both are SOEs. This has a negative effect on infrastructure development investment in South Africa.


Gedurende ons kommiteevergaderings het ek navraag gedoen of dit nie wys sou wees om die Landbank se besigheidsplan te hersien nie, aangesien dit duidelik nie winsgewend is nie en dit glad nie ’n volhoubare oplossing is om subjuktief op volgehoue regeringsondersteuning staat te maak, om kop bo water hou nie. Ek was gekruisig. Ondersteuning van opkomende boere en transformasie was voor my kop gegooi, met die fokus op sogenaamde voedselsekerheid.


The Public Service Wage Bill is an issue that needs urgent re- evaluation. We have requested this on numerous occasions. The challenge is that salary increases can’t necessarily be budgeted for, since trade unions do not always keep to long- term wage agreements and striking season is a norm.

It seems as if trade unions have become lucrative businesses, getting 1% of someone’s salary every month. An amount of 223 trade unions represents about 3 million workers in South Africa.

The question is: How much of the R14,6 billion of this adjustment budget that was allocated towards national departments to assist with the carry-through costs associated

with the 2022-23 public service wage increase will end up in the union pockets? It’s just an interesting thought.


Ons sien daarna uit om die volledige verslag rakende die finanasieële stand van sake rondom die sowat 700 staatsentiteite onder oë te kry, aangesien die moontlikheid bestaan dat van hierdie entiteite in erge finansieële verknorsing is.


In closing ...


... met ’n regering wat die privatisering van staatsentiteite en/of die verkoop daarvan tot op hede teengestaan het, kan mens dan skielik vrae vra, aangesien ’n aankondiging deur die Minister van Finansies gemaak is oor die moontlike sluiting en of privatisering van staatsentiteite. Wat gaan werklik daar aan? Wat is die werklike stand van sake? Suid-Afrika kan nie die huidige finansieële las bekostig nie. Ons kan nie hierdie begroting bekostig nie. Dankie.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, EFF rejects the Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill. The Second Adjustment Appropriation Bill proposes additional funding to SAA, the SA Post Office, the Land and Agricultural Development Bank, known as the Land Bank and provision of public service wage increases.

Ordinarily, we will welcome additional funding to state-owned entities. However, the ANC-led government has demonstrated that it has no political will or appreciation for the strategic rule of state-owned entities. We know this to be true, as they eagerly sold off SAA, the SA Post Office assets, its land and buildings at a fraction of their prices.

We however welcome the additional allocations made for political party funding and the public service wage increase. We reject this Bill, as it does nothing further to empower the lives of our people. We reject the majority of the neoliberal nonsense tabled by the National Treasury here in Parliament.
Thank you.

Mr Z MKIVA: Hon Chairperson, you said, any other party. I rise to represent, not any other party, but the ANC, the governing party.

Mr C F B SMIT: The corruption party.

Mr Z MKIVA: We need to set the record straight immediately. We did nothing wrong, not at all. We met the requirements of the Money Bills Act on processing Money Bills and the applicable parliamentary Rules. We also have a representative of Parliament’s Legal Services Unit and two excellent secretaries of the committee. None of them said that we were doing anything wrong.

And then there they are, right there, the DA and the other opposition parties. And they never once said that we were processing the Bill irregularly. Why did the DA participate at all, if the process was irregular? This is a Second Adjustment Bill for the year 2022-23 financial year, which deals with the spending pressures in certain government programmes from last year, and it has been adopted after all other proposed legislation had been adopted during the adjustments. So, it could not have waited for the year 2023-24 proposals to be adopted first.

The DA is offering a very prude and transparent red herring. It is not the process that is the issue; they are against this

appropriation and they are against pro-poor appropriations. All these adjustments are like that.

I want to say that the DA, together with the other party that is represented by Mr De ... [Inaudible.] ... and the EFF here think that poverty and inequality are natural. We are pro-poor in our approach and when we make these interventions, we are coming with an instrument of progression, which will help to take our people away from squalor and ensure that the resources of this country are actually spread across the citizens of our Republic, so that we better the lives of our people.

So, this adjustment is about the following in respect of the SOEs.

Firstly, the SA Post Office, which of course delivers to unserved and poor rural areas, basic services. People must take that into account and the EFF must not mislead the public in saying that we have sold some these assets. Nothing of sort. I want to reject that with the label that it deserves.

The land Bank is there to assist the emerging farmers, particularly the African farmers, but blacks, in general. The

social relief of distress grants have been a need necessitated by the conditions that we found ourselves in with a post- Covid-19 situation, as well as some of the pressures that we face and that our people are subjected to.

Wages for public servants is a matter that we cannot just ignore. We have to take it into account and we have to do something about it. We cannot just reject the issues that are raised by unions in the Bargaining Council. We have to take stock, but we have to compare and contrast in terms of whether our money allows it or not.

We consider the contribution of the political parties in the legislatures and we don’t just bulldoze when we say that we support these adjustments. These appropriations are part of the transformative agenda and as the ANC, we cannot just be apologetic to that agenda. We stand for the transformation of the economy of this country. We stand for the growth of our economy, in order to meet those demands of that transformation.

We know that the vast majority of our constituencies, the poor and the disadvantages - not the DA’s constituencies, of course

- support these appropriations. Therefore, we stand by our people and that is why our people also stand by us.

For example, I just want to take some aspects from the report, which has been outlined here by the hon Mahlangu. The South African Post Office, Sapo, must be held accountable for the decisions taken to withhold statutory and other payments deducted from employees’ salaries and to not pay it over to the relevant authorities.

Given Sapo’s weak track record with implementing its turnaround plans, the Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies should consider placing Sapo under administration before further funding is considered to implement the new strategy. At the least, an oversight committee should be established by the National Treasury and the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies.

The future of SAPO must be aligned with the result of the market study and the policy objectives set out in the ICT White Paper. Indeed, Sapo must begin selling all its noncore assets, including properties at market rate. We are saying Sapo must remain intact, but we can sell the noncore assets

because they do not help us in the actual strategy of turning around that institution.

Insofar as the Land Bank is concerned, we say that the Land Bank must provide assurance of compliance with section 38(1)(j) of the Public Finance Management Act. If such confirmation cannot be provided, the ...

Mr M NHANHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am sorry for doing this, but I want to check: How much time is each speaker allowed?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Three minutes for a declaration.

Mr M NHANHA: Do you have a watch in front of you, Chair?

Mr Z MKIVA: I am still on one minute. Yes, certainly, I have a stop watch. It is not just an ordinary watch.

Mr M NHANHA: I am talking to the Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let us not debate, hon Nhanha. Hon Mkiva is about to finish. I am keeping an eye on the time.

Mr Z MKIVA: So, I am saying that we have instruments in place to ensure compliance and responsibility on the part of the Land Bank and SAA. That is why we say that we support these adjustment, because without ... [Interjections.] We don’t stand to collapse ... [Interjections.] I think the opposition parties ... [Interjections.] Can I be allowed to conclude? [Interjections.]

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned 16:04.