Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 01 Dec 2022


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary


The House met at 10:01.



The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair and to hon members of this august House, I hereby move:


That this House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, for the purpose of conducting the Second Reading today on the Special Appropriation Bill 24 of 2022, and the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.


I so move, hon House Chair and to the House. Thank you.


Motion agreed to.





There was no debate.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I hereby move:



That this House adopts this Report.



Thank you.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.






(First Reading debate)



Mr N S BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the African National Congress supports the 2022 Special Appropriation Bill. The reason we support this Bill and its allocation is because the spent is on infrastructure. The Bill is about rail, roads and, indeed, manufacturing. Underlining the centrality of infrastructure in the economy a man by the name of William Clinton notes, I quote:


It turns out that advancing equal opportunity and economic empowerment is both morally right and good economics, because discrimination, poverty and ignorance restrict growth, while investments in education, infrastructure and scientific and technological research increase it, creating more good jobs and new wealth for all of us.


The quote above summarises our approach to infrastructure development in our country. The Bill allocates

R30,1014 billion to the Department of Public Enterprises and Department of Transport. R23,736 billion goes to Department of Transport to recapitalise the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, and R6,278 billion goes to the Department of Public


Enterprises. This allocation is divided between Denel who received R3,378 billion and Transnet received R2,9 billion.


It is now common cause that the floods in KwaZulu-Natal and in the Eastern Cape destroyed a lot of infrastructure both economic and social, schools, shops, hospitals and houses were washed away leaving many people without schools or homes. That is why even today thousands of our people are still displaced. Many learners are still using temporary classrooms. Therefore, when you oppose this Bill, you’re saying that those kids should to continue ... [Interjections.] ... exactly so it’s very important to consider that, hon members. It is also true that rails, pylons, OTA and stations were also not spared.

This was unfortunate addition to the destruction caused by coronavirus disease, Covid-19, pandemic and July unrest. Apart from destroying infrastructure this led to subdued economic performance and high levels of unemployment.


However, as you are all witnesses the ANC government did not just fold its hands. It had to respond to the tragedy. We are committed to rebuilding, our response was the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, get the economy back growth trajectory. Announcing the ERRP to joint sitting of


Parliament the President His Excellency Ramaphosa said I quote:



Infrastructure has immense potential to stimulate investment and growth, to develop other economic sectors and create sustainable employment both directly and indirectly.


You are continuing to say that our infrastructure ... [Inaudible.] ... programme will focus on social infrastructure such as schools, water, sanitation and housing for the benefit of our people. If you say no to this Bill it means you are saying that you should not continue with the rebuilding.



I’m reminding you what the ANC government has said before, and this Special Appropriation Bill continues on that path to economic recovery. It is nothing new, hon members, we also know that an infrastructure fund of R100 billion was set and this was aimed at crowding in private sector investment. Hon members, before some of us get excited, this recapitalisation by the shareholder is dealing by and large with an external shock. This happens even in private sector, nothing new. We are dealing by and large by an external shock and as a responsible government we must respond to this economic tsunami.



House Chairperson, the point that usually eludes those who are against government recapitalisation of state-owned entities, SOEs, is that the biggest beneficiaries of these allocations, if I may repeat, the biggest beneficiaries of these allocations are private sector companies. It is them that get appointed to do work for many of the SOEs. We now know that if government does not spend on infrastructure, it is not just a SOEs that suffer, but private companies too. It is not just a matter of correlation, there’s proven causality as we saw during the Soccer World Cup.



Hon members, an elephant in the room has been the Gauteng. Hon members, hon members, an elephant in the room has been the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, GFIP, popularly known as e-tolls. Due to nonpayment of e-tolls, this created many problems for Sanral. The biggest being its inability to service the debt without taking from other important programmes. This resulted in the deterioration of our roads, not just in Gauteng but other parts of the country. The pronouncement by the Minister of Finance during his Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, is the breath of fresh



air. He said that government proposes to make an initial allocation of R23,7 billion from the national fiscus which will be disbursed on strict conditions. We support that.



The Bill also avails R3,78 billion to Denel. The problems of Denel are well-known. The intellectual property and capabilities of Denel are among the best in the world. Its financial position has made it difficult to continue with its business, but even more painful was to see the employees of the Denel going for months without any form of payment. Hon members, as we decide how to vote on this Bill let’s pause for a moment and think of those men and women, those patriots, who stood with the company despite all these challenges. Let us think of their families, let us think of those children who had to leave school universities because the parents could not pay their fees. Hon members, please think of the families who have been taken out of their houses, not because of them, but because the company did not have money to pay them. I say this because the workers of Denel are owed about the billion rand. Let workers be a priority when this Bill is passed. I thank you.



Declarations of vote:



Mr A N SARUPEN: House Chair, this is the second Special Appropriations Bill that this Parliament is dealing within this current term of office. The last Special Appropriations Bill gave R59 billion to Eskom and I don’t need to unpack the consequences of that Bill, hon Finance Minister, it was before your time, I won’t blame you for it. However, let’s not forget we now have more load shedding than ever before. Eskom debt is an insurmountable problem despite that R59 billion allocated

... [Interjections.] ... House Chair ... [Inaudible.] ... seconds of my time was lost to that ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m watching, immediately I speak, they stop it. I’m very aware, don’t worry.



Mr A N SARUPEN: Thank you, House Chair, I appreciate your attention then. One of the reasons that the Eskom bailouts did not resolve any of a problem is because the previous Finance Minister imposed such a weak condition on SOE bailouts that nothing was done to fix the problems. Most of the conditions for the bailouts is not passed included ... [Inaudible.] ... and being tax compliance that’s pointless because it is required by law already. Bailout condition should be tough and enforce reforms at state-owned companies. Otherwise it becomes



a blank cheque which is what the Eskom Special Appropriation Bill was.



Now, this Bill is going to give R30 billion in bailouts to state-owned companies. Hon Buthelezi, R30 billion in bailouts. R3,3 billion for Denel, R2,9 billion for Transnet, and

R24 billion for Sanral. We know from the testimony at the State Capture Commission as well as the reports from that commission that far more was looted from Denel and Transnet. Let me start with Sanral, however, it is clear that the chosen model for the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project was wrong and led to a debt crisis at the entity, and for years the DA proposed alternatives to the system in the Gauteng Legislature. For years we warned that the system was administratively burdensome and expensive, and for years we warned that consumers in Gauteng were too tight tightly squeezed to pay this additional tax that was called e-tolls.

The ANC did not listen in the Gauteng Legislature and here we are providing Sanral with the bailout of R24 billion.

Therefore, if you want to know what the alternative solutions are some of my colleagues from Gauteng Legislature, hon Patrick Atkinson ... [Inaudible.] ... hon Buthelezi have a chat with them so that they can tell you.



Now, at Transnet between 2009 and 2018, a looting ... [Inaudible.] ... occurred. The Zondo Commission found that there was a racketeering system embedded into Transnet from which the Gupta family were the main beneficiaries.

R41 billion in irregular contracts were awarded to Transnet. That is 72% of all the contracts that there were estimated of having part of the state capture process. At Denel, we also know that as key supplier at Denel was purchased by the Gupta family and the ... [Inaudible.] ... to further an agenda.

However, this is the third Denel bailout that I’ve witnessed at my time at the Appropriations Committee and last three years and a bit. In August 2019, Denel got R1,8 billion from the state. In 2020 Denel got R576 million. What happened to all that money? Why would the workers not be paid? Why are we in this crisis?



Therefore, the public and now being asked to pay back the Gupta money. South Africans are being asked to surrender their taxes to pay back this money as a time of a cost of living crisis with record food and fuel prices and taxpayer money is instead being used to refund SOEs that were looted by the ANC’s friends and former leaders. The relief on the fuel levy was ended because the government cannot afford it, but there’s R30 billion for bailouts. Millions of households are



struggling to afford food, but instead of reducing the value- added tax, VAT, and critical food items there was money for bailout. So, today the government is telling the public that there is no money for their needs. There’s no money for ... [Inaudible.] ... household, but there is money for bailouts. This Bill represents the new more bankruptcy of the ANC which is leading to the actual bankruptcy of the country. It cannot be supported and the DA will not support it. Thank you.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair, and what a nice colour of red you are having on, the Special Appropriation Bill before the National Assembly is tabled by the Minister of Finance to give money to Denel, Transnet and the SA National Road Agency SOC Ltd, Sanral. The Bill wants to give Denel R3,4 billion, Transnet R2,9 billion and Sanral R23,7 billion.



This is not the first time that we have been asked to pass Special Appropriation Bills to give SOEs money, yet we have nothing to show for it. In 2021, we gave SA Airways, SAA, over R2,7 billion, yet it was sold for R51 to the friends and cronies of the Minister of Public Enterprises. In 2015, we appropriated more than R23 billion to Eskom and were told that the money will be used to improve electricity generation, but



today we are subjected to permanent electricity blackouts. A man who failed to manage a beverage packaging company is entrusted to manage a complex utility without any tangible experience. It is true what the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, Mr Gwede Mantashe is saying, Mr De Ruyter, has neither the technical nor the intellectual capacity, nor the commitment to lead and salvage Eskom. We bring Eskom up as an example because Parliament continues to pass special appropriations and failed to hold those that are entrusted with public money responsibly.



The Department of Public Enterprises and the National Treasury continue to introduce these Special Appropriations Bills without practical, believable, and implementable plans to salvage SOEs. The money that is given to Denel and Transnet is not going to make any difference, if any, it is throwing good money to bad management. Mr Pravin Gordhan does not have the commitment or the capacity to salvage SOEs. He does not care. How can you care when your entire programme is to privatise and depend on collapsing the very SOEs? The men have been in charge of the Ministry for nearly five years and have survived all the time by telling us of nonexistent dark forces and pretending that he represents some good in a rotten ANC.



The reality is that we are passing a special appropriation to give Transnet and Denel money without a concrete, tangible plan to salvage the SOEs. We are not saying this because we believe the current administration has an understanding or appreciation of the meaningful roles of strategic SOEs. We know that they don't have. What needs to be done with regard to Transnet, we need to reverse the madness of port privatisation and allow Transnet strategic money and necessary support to improve the efficiency of all ports and ensure that trains carrying goods between ports and the market are busy, chairperson of the committee.



Part of the sustainable solution, is the transfer of Transnet from the Public Enterprise Ministry to the Transport Ministry. With regard to Denel, we need to revise the orders that Mr Pravin found when he took over and deliberately collapsed to ensure that Denel was brought to its knees at the expense of the workers who would not get paid salaries that could feed their families and lost their properties. Like Transnet, Denel needs to move to the Ministry of Defence and let's allow people who understand the workings of the military landscape to salvage Denel.



Lastly, we want to remind the public that we rejected the e- tolls. We refused to pay them and we remain resolute. We are not going to pay them. Sanral must reorganise its strategies and launch large-scale projects of road rebuilding using labour-intensive methods to create jobs. For every rand we spend building roads, the majority of it goes to locally produced materials and labour. The EFF rejects the Special Appropriation Bill until there are clear strategies to salvage and rebuild our SOEs instead of throwing money into enterprises when there are no people who have the intention or when there are people that are having the intention to deliberately collapse these various SOEs. We reject this Bill. Thank you very much, House Chair.



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, year in, and year out, we talk on the same issues relating to the need for money to be allocated to the state-owned entities, SOEs, to support their creaking operations. We do this with the hope that it'll change. However, it never does, and again, we have to dedicate money to fight their battles while leaving our people in the dark. We do not support the continuous bailouts of SOEs.

However, we also have to acknowledge that the government's weaknesses to keep these entities functioning at their optimal



best have placed us where we are right now. If we allow them to go down, then we as a country go down with them.



Our only hope is that these amounts of money set aside and allocated are used to address the problems facing these entities and yield positive results this time. The importance of the services that entities under the Department of Public Enterprises offers to our people is insurmountable, but we need them to work so that the people can enjoy these services. It's high time that accountability measures are affected as we cannot keep on paying lip service to the same issues with little change. We do not and should not be expected to abuse the taxpayers’ money this way, and then all we offer them is nonworking entities while we inject so much money into them.



Many of our other departments like the Department of Education are barely holding together because of the skeleton funding they are allocated, yet we're able to gamble with this money and put it into SOEs that refuse to turn around and also put money into the pockets of the corrupt. We ask that our people are put at the top of the agenda this time around and that the money is accompanied by the fulfilment of services that each SOE is mandated to. We as the IFP call that this money allocated to the Department of Public Enterprises and the



Department of Transport be used for exactly what they’re meant for, and that this time there is an actual difference in their output. The IFP supports this report, hon Chairperson.





Siyabonga kakhulu, Mvulane, yinto yakwethu lena ... [Ubuwelewele.] ...umbiko.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Sithokoze, mhlonishwa.





I still have some minutes. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Sorry, Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Shaik Emam?



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: I’m sorry about this, Chairperson, hon Kwankwa who is going to speak after the Freedom Front Plus said he is having a problem, his microphone is off and he can’t gain access, if someone can please assist him? Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the hon Buthelezi seem befuddled. He talks about voting against this Bill means voting against classrooms, voting against infrastructure, and voting against the poor. I think he's confused. I'm not sure if he has the correct Bill. The hon Sarupen is correct when he says that this Bill is bailouts, and then hon Buthelezi makes a very strange turn and says, the biggest beneficiaries of these, let's call them bailouts, although you used a never name, is private companies. That might be so, but which companies? The companies of your comrades and your friends that already looted the money of these state-owned entities.



But the most important point is who are the biggest losers of this Bill, the people out there paying taxes, the poor not getting services because who destroyed Denel? It didn't just happen that they have financial troubles, it’s the ANC government. What is appropriated here is money for a turnaround plan.





Daar is niks waaraan die ANC-regering geraak het, wat nie ’n omkeerplan nodig het nie. Nie een van die omkeerplanne werk ooit nie. Niks daarvan werk ooit nie, want u steel dan nog die geld van die omkeerplan. Hierdie geld wat hier toegeken word,



gaan weereens net gemors en gesteel word. Dit als kon voorkom geword het.



Kom ons vat e-tol. Die opposisie het in hierdie Huis en in wetgewers orals gewaarsku.





We said that it was ill-considered, and now what is happening? Now the taxpayer must foot the bill for something ill- considered and a failure from the start, and that is what you must start admitting to the poor people out there.



This Special Appropriation Bill is the epitome of failing the people out there. Taking money that should be used to improve our health care system, to improve the infrastructure out there, but it is being used to turn around looted state-owned entities.



The hon Buthelezi says that poverty restricts growth is true but restricted growth causes poverty, and then we should go and look at what is the cause of this restricted economic growth in South Africa; ANC policies, looting, corruption and complete and utter mismanagement of public funds. That is what is causing the poverty and inequality in South Africa, and



then we are expected to vote for this Special Appropriation Bill.





Mnr H G APRIL: Jou tyd is verstreke.





Mnr W W WESSELS: Agb April moet stilbly en aan Kroonstad dink.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Wait, hon member. Hon April, if you do that again you will be out of the platform. We don’t do that. It’s a warning. Proceed, hon member.



Mr W W WESSELS: Thank you. Let me conclude, Chairperson, if members of the ruling party today think about the people out there, they will vote against this Bill. They will think with their conscience and not just party alignment, but they will think about the poor out there and vote against this because this is not in the interest of the people out there. This is in the interest of themselves, and you must admit why these bailouts are necessary, but you don't do that because you come here with rhetoric and with stories that the people out there aren't buying anymore.







Ons moet ontslae raak van die hele spul. Dankie.



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP has taken note of this report, the staggering R30 billion that is allocated by the Special Appropriation Bill. And yes, some of these funds are needed to repair flood damaged infrastructure. But much of it, as previous speakers have indicated, is as a result of previous looting and corruption that took place and is pointed out in the Zondo Report.



Minister Pravin Gordhan refers to me from the ACDP as the point of contact for state capture. So, I want to just emphasize if one looks at the cumulative spend on state-owned enterprises, SOE, bailouts for the last 20years up to 2020, that amounts to a staggering R187,4 billion. And much of those funds were reported in the Zondo Commission of Inquiry as having been looted and stolen. For example, Transnet, R41 billion in irregular contracts, 72% of all contracts. So yes, something may be done about it. But at the moment, we know that our taxpayers, our households, our businesses are really struggling financially, and we appreciate that part of the tax windfall is having to be used for this bailout. And then the



question arises as to what has been the return? Sadly, Eskom is failing, Transnet is failing, the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, PRASA, cannot run the trains. The Land Bank has defaulted and the Postbank is in a shocking state. Every one of these entities has been broken and needs repaired and sadly, the taxpayer is again asked to finance these repairs.



The finance condition of many of these state-owned companies remains exceptionally weak. And this has also been aggravated not only by looting and corruption by the effects of external impact, as pointed out floods and of course, the Russia- Ukraine war. But when one looks at, for example, the significant bailout of R23,7 billion to the to South African National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, SANRAL, as a result of what is put as repayment of maturing debt and debt related obligations. This is clearly as a result of the e-tolls and the lack of payment today, and this is a matter of great concern.



The appropriations committee in its report, - and I am grateful for the hard work that the members of this committee did has pointed out that the provision of continuous financial support for state-owned enterprise, SOEs, directly from the fiscus will continue to compromise social programmes for the



poor and other developmental obligations. The ACDP agrees with this and that’s why we emphasize the point that these bailouts must come to an end because of the impact that we are having when those much needed funds could rather be used for households and businesses. Therefore, regrettably, the ACDP will not support this report. I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Kwankwa, if you are not back we will allow you until before speaker number 15 engages. If we go beyond speaker number 15 unfortunately, we won’t be able to take you. We proceed to the NFP, hon Shaik-Emam.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the National Freedom Party supports the report of the Special Appropriation Bill 2022. Having said that, Chairperson, we want to raise a few of our concerns. First of all, the continuous bailout of state-owned entities, SOEs. We find ourselves in a predicament that if we do not bail these institutions out, of course, they are going to collapse overnight.



And as you are aware, that many of these institutions are responsible for job creation, even though they have not met the expectation but also responsible for providing essential



services in the country. If you look at Denel Chairperson, the pride of South Africa of many years ago, is in a state of collapse. We have now got confirmation that Denel has not been sold. But of course, we also have confirmation that Denel is quite a sizable audible. So, we are hopeful that with this assistance that is provided to Denel, they would be able to turn the Denel around and make it the success that it once was.



Chairperson, on the issue of Transnet, I want to raise some concerns, the rail network particularly. If you look at what has happened in the ports and why many shipping companies are now diverted to other ports because of the not only the strike that affected them, but very importantly for the poor quality of the delivery of service at this port. The waiting time and things like that, which is costing them a lot of money. These matters need to be addressed, if not, these ports will become white elephants in any way.



But very importantly, on the issue of fraud, you know, we are appropriating these special appropriation of funds for the purposes of rehabilitating, particularly infrastructure that if maintained properly in the first day, will not need additional funding. So basically speaking, we often use the



argument of flooding and things in the country. But what has given rise to the state this infrastructure is, is the one maintenance of it and no on-going maintenance. That is the problem that we tend to have.



Chairperson, every state-owned entity is in trouble. When, and exactly when can we have a turnaround in this country where the state-owned companies. Like many other countries all over the world, are a success and an asset to particularly the people, that 13% only that pay taxes in this country. So I think while we support this, we are not satisfied with the state-owned company’s performance. And I think some measures must be put to turn these around. The NFP supports this Special Appropriation Bill. Thank you.



Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, Chief Whip, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, we are in the midst of the period where we are pushing against the demonic abuse against women and children, The 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence. Indeed, we are part and parcel of all those progressive men and women of the world who are saying “This far, no further”! Let this abuse stop.



I therefore dedicate my debate today to the rural women and children who have been victims of this abuse. Please know that we are with you and we will leave no stone unturned in stopping this barbaric behaviour. The ANC supports the 2022 Special Appropriation Bill. We support the R30,014 billion which is being allocated by the Bill because that will lead to economic growth and create more jobs.



Chairperson, I will focus on the allocation to public enterprise and in particular to what goes to Transnet. Transnet is the backbone of transport in our country. It is also the backbone of the economy of our country. Also thousands and thousands of our people are employed by Transnet. So, the health and Transnet is very important. We agree with the Minister of Finance when he argue that companies should be self-sufficient and must contribute to economic growth. But we are equally in agreement when he says and I quote:



So, as balance sheets are being restored and those who looted and mismanaged then are being held accountable.



We have little choice but to act to keep these key services running.



Hon remembers, this Bill allocated R2,9 billion to Transnet. Perhaps, it is important at this stage to share with you what happened to necessitate this recapitalisation. The floods, mainly in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, led to loads of destruction of Transnet infrastructure, rail bridges, substations etc. Also, copper theft has been at its highest. In fact, it is estimated that Transnet lost about 500 kilometre of copper from this vandalisation.



The chairperson of the committee argued here that Transnet is the backbone of both transport and the economy. Yes, it is. If Transnet coughs the whole economy catches a cold. Hence, the immediate intervention by the shareholder is critical. The recapitalisation of R2,9 billion is to ensure the return of out of service locomotives. These locomotives were suspended following allegations of corruption by some of the suppliers of locomotives, including China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation, CRRC, a Chinese company manufacturing locomotive, a total of 1064 locomotives who were out of service.



Needless to say, this impacted services negatively. The availability of locomotives made it difficult for Transnet to meet the demand from our customers. Even those that were there, their reliability was hugely undermined. Transnet lost



a lot of money in the process. We had a situation when demand was bigger than supply of locomotives. The Russia-Ukraine conflict has led to bigger demand of South African commodities at even unseen prices. That meant that Transnet, due to unavailability of locomotives could not optimally take advantage of date.



We heard earlier on that the South African Revenue Service, SARS, is getting over R80 billion as a windfall, mainly because of performance of commodities. It is not exaggeration to add that if Transnet had enough locomotives, our fiscus would be looking even much better. I’m sharing this information with you, hon members to show how critical this investment is for the whole economy of our country.



Last week, I had a meeting with Transnet when we were processing the Bill. When we enquired from them, we can’t, they fund this from their own resources. Obviously, listen, COVID-19 is a factor. KZN floods destroyed a lot of their infrastructure and floods loses are estimated at R7 billion. Yes, R7 billion and the insurance only paid and R1,8 billion. The difference has to come from their own reserves and another

... [Inaudible.] ... of R2,9 billion from Department of Social Development, DSD, effected by National Treasury to allow them



to fund emergency capital requirements. There is no doubt that the floods impact was huge and devastating to Transnet businesses.



We welcome the definitive settlement agreement between Transnet on one end, or the Original Equipment Manufacturers, OEMS, on the other which include CRRC and Bombardier and Alstom on the other. Therefore, hon members, this R2,7 billion will allow a total of 2224 locomotives to return to service between December and March 2024.



Transnet also need new locomotives dealing with the return of non-operating locomotives. We will also free it from acquiring new ones. They will do that mainly relying on their balance sheet. Between now and March 2024, before a total of 168 locomotives will be delivered. This will give much needed oxygen to Transnet and business. That’s why we support the recapitalisation. Let me add some other very important benefits for the economy which will accrue from bringing back the locomotives. Transnet freight rail will gain about 10,104 million tons of freight. And in the process, is getting R2,122 billion of revenue. Approximately 185,137 foreign earnings will be earned because of this initiative.



The unavailability of trains has led to the proliferation of trucks in our roads. This has been accompanied by many accidents. The horrific accident that took place in uPhongolo killing about 20 learners still haunts us. It is indeed very important to remove those trucks from our roads. Transnet estimate about 2 million trucks which will be removed from the roads and that will reduce the accidents in our roads. [Time Expired.]



Ms B M VAN MINNEN: House Chair, here we have another appropriations debate and another bailout.



It’s pretty common cause that spoil kids that fail to launch are the result of overindulgent parents who facilitate the problem and continue to reinforce bad behaviour.



South African state-owned entities, SOEs, are exactly that kid; bloated, lazy and untrustworthy of any responsibility, addicted to bailouts, operating in a protectionist environment where they don’t have to compete, figuratively lying on the couch with a PlayStation, fed by a sugar drip of taxpayers’ money, constantly provided by an indulgent parent who thinks that they just provide enough support and love the kid will



miraculously rise from the couch and become a high performing professional. This is not how it works.



So, what kind of co-dependency relationship are we dealing with today? Today we have a proposed additional allocation of some R30 billion to be distributed to certain public enterprises: R3,378 billion to Denel for the implementation of its turnaround strategy. Although, how you turn an organization around that is that deeply in debt is questionable. It owes hundreds of millions, hasn’t paid its staff, seems to have lost most of its intellectual property in a deeply dodgy deal with Saudi Arabia, and it’s been selling core assets.



R2,9 billion is allocated to Transnet for the repairs and maintenance of locomotives and flood damage. Again, despite a highly protectionist environment and a monopoly of the ports, Transnet just can’t seem to overcome its love for other people’s money. And yet more billions to the SA National Roads Agency, SANRAL, as they continue to block the arteries of the economy. This is much worse than a sugar drip. It is a full blown drug dependency with the ANC government acting as a supplier and facilitator of this addiction.



These bailouts are not fiscally sound. The Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, implored government to include stringent conditions that deter these SOEs from indulging in morally hazardous behaviour. The FFC further cautioned against the use of the Special Appropriation Bill to provide funding for SANRAL, Denel and Transnet atop of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill as this signals financial uncertainty, perpetuating the cycle of bailing out poorly performing SOEs. And why are bailouts bad?



Paul Volcker, the famous American economist who was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve who in the United States, US, tamed inflation and allowed the US economy to boom, and boy do we need that in this country, argued that bailouts promote a centralized bureaucracy by allowing government powers to choose winners and losers in the economy. They signal to recipients that they can take reckless risks and if the risks are realized, taxpayers will pay the losses. The danger is the spread of moral hazard, which could make the next crisis much bigger.



In economic terms the term moral hazard refers to a situation where a party lacks the incentive to guard against the financial risk due to being protected from any potential



consequences, which is a pretty good description about slacker kid of the South African SOEs.



How many bailouts does this House routinely process every year? Billions of rands.



In the dystopian reality of the South African economy SOEs continue to luge from bailout to bailout like a never-ending rerun of the walking dead, constantly searching for more sustenance as the South African taxpayer hides from the shuffling zombies in an attempt not to be consumed.



Indeed, it is the members of this House who continue to feed this national nyaope [South African street drug] addiction of SOEs, allowing them to feed on the carcass of the South African economy while being headed to some Stalinist horizon stalked by the four horsemen of the ANC, namely: corruption, inflation, state capture and bankruptcy.



The DA opposes these bailouts.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I just want to explain this monitor here, by the podium. This monitor will count you. When you are left with 15 seconds it turns red



and it goes to zero, and after that that’s when I call that your time is up. If you proceed it will count upwards. So, some people leave the podium and they see seven or they see eight, that’s a bonus. So, don’t blame me and say no I had seven seconds left, it’s because it is counting upwards after your time has lapsed. So, lets’ not fight about it. Thank you very much.



Mr X S QAYISO: Hon Chair, members of the committee, the leader of the majority part, the Minister ... [Interjections.] ...




You see, hon Chair and members, various speakers who stood here did not offer any solution to what we should be doing with regard to the Special Appropriation Bill and that is a problem.



Hon Chair, the ANC’s vision for the South African economy is guided by the Freedom Charter, in particular the injunction that “The people shall share in the country’s wealth”. This informs the ANC government’s commitment to managing the economy, not only in a manner that is growth and enhancing but to ensure that the pace and the pattern of growth is inclusive and transforms our society.



The unfavourable global economic environment has put a strain on our economic development and potential for job creation which causes frustration among many people, particularly the poor.



As stated by Amilcar Cabral:



Once people want a better life always bear in mind that people are not fighting for ideas, for the things in one’s head, they are fighting to win material benefits, to live better and in peace, to see their lives go forward and to guarantee the future of their children.



The Special Appropriation Bill broadly aims to respond to some of the developmental challenges we face as a country and intends to guarantee better future to those who come after us.



The Bill, therefore, proposes for SANRAL to be appropriated R23,7 billion out of the national revenue fund for the redemption of government guaranteed debt and maintaining a healthy balance sheet.



SANRAL’s debt guarantee exposure is increased by R11,7 billion to R49,1 billion as at the end of 2021-22 financial year



mainly due to accrued interest and re-evaluation of inflation- linked points.



A total of R47 billion for SANRAL debt will be shared between Gauteng, a provincial government and national government.

There will be a 30% to 70% split between Gauteng provincial government and National Treasure to unlock the impasses surrounding Gauteng freeway improvement project.



An amount of R23,7 billion of the R47 billion debt will mature soon and will be paid by the national government and Gauteng provincial government has a consequence resolve to set up task teams that will at sources of funding for the 30% share of Gauteng freeway improvement project debt and to investigate how the entire e-toll infrastructure can be repurposed to deal with crime issues.



The Gauteng provincial government has indicated that it intended to stagger repayment of its 30% share in respect of the Gauteng freeway improvement project debt over 20 years in order to avoid pressure on the province’s finances, delivery of social services and other basic developmental deliverables for the people of Gauteng.



These interventions are critical as they resolve the long standing dissatisfactions expressed by the commuters against e-tolls. This is demonstrative of ANC-led government that is always prepared to listen and correct its policy mistakes.



A proposed total of R3,4 billion was allocated to Denel for the implementation of its turnaround strategy. Denel requires an estimated amount of R5,2 billion in recapitalization to restructure and turn the company around to profitability. From this, R3,4 billion will be received from proposed recapitalization in the Bill. While the balance of

R1,8 billion will be raised through the sale of Denel’s non-core assets.



Based on the progress to date, as the ANC we are confident that Denel will be able to raise the R1,8 billion from the sale of its own assets over the next six months to augment the recapitalization and complete the turnaround and the restructuring process.



There are prospects that no further bailout request is foreseen in the short to medium-term. Their main should be ensuring the sustainability of the entity which is essential for our developmental imperatives.



Denel must be seen as crucial to South Africa not only because it generates jobs but also because it plays a crucial part in the country’s national defence portfolio.



The SA National Defence Force, SANDF, will be forced to rely on imports without Denel, who is able to supply it with variety of defence equipment. This will in turn undermine the integrity of the country’s sovereignty.



Our state-owned enterprises must be treated with great sensitivity as they are essential to our developmental agenda. We have a democratic and revolutionary responsibility to ensure their preservation and sustainability, and we cannot allow them to fail and be disposed to detriment of our development agenda.



There are some amongst us who believe we should be auctioning off our state-owned enterprises to the private sector because they are under the control of black government, forgetting that under apartheid they nationalised state assets for the benefit of the white people; in other words they built a white empire. Today they want black people to accept that discriminated and oppressed black do not deserve to have state



entities that support their upliftment through growth and development.



There is no developing country anywhere that outsources its developmental imperative to private sector; it would be the most illogical senseless thing to do. Even advanced economies maintain their state-owned companies for the support and sustenance of growth in the economy.



In actual fact ... [Interjections.] ... yes, because you apply a chicken theory. You pour a grain, you chase it, it comes again. You forget what you did during your so-called President Paul Kruger, during the apartheid colonial regime period, who started to nationalise the state-owned assets and now you have forgotten that.



In actual fact the state has been in the centre of many technological advancements with the private sector. The state investment is needed to be engaged in risk-taking and the creation of new vision rather than just fixing market failures.



People must be reminded that the global financial crisis of 2008 was caused by the private sector and not the public



sector. In actual fact, in the public money that bailout the private sector from the crisis the private sector created itself, as opposed to what the FF-Plus is saying.



There is, therefore, no scientific basis for us to privatise our state enterprises at the detriment of the people of this country and for the benefit of the beneficiaries of apartheid.



As the ANC we will never sell out the people of South Africa [Time expired.] and appease the rich.



The ANC supports this Special Appropriations Bill. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, thank you for the opportunity to engage on the Special Appropriation Bill. It is crucial to begin with the outlook. The micro economic conditions of sluggish global growth, elevated inflation, accelerated interest hikes and heightened disruptions in the power supply and worsening inequality are key challenges for us.



In the strategy we outlined what we call fiscal strategy priorities among those things achieving fiscal sustainability by narrowing the budget deficit and stabilising debt,



increasing spending on policy priorities such as security and infrastructure and other frontline service delivery activities in order to promote economic growth. That means, as another hon member was saying here, we are cutting out social expenditure.



I must gallop in the light of having seven minutes, hon House Chairperson, by dealing with the state owned enterprises and make the point that this funding is intended to support growth. I am going to go through each state owned enterprise and explain how that works. I must say, however, that pre conditions and post conditions will be applied — strict ones for that matter.



I accept what the hon Swart was saying that the amount is R187 million, in fact, Eskom alone has about R230 billion. Between 2007 and now the South African Airways, SAA, has

R46 billion. Those are the things we need to address. What are we trying to achieve? All of these state owned enterprises have pre conditions, for instance, Denel has already met some of them. Denel has already raised about R900 million on noncore assets in order to comply with these conditions.

Denel, as I have indicated, is intended to supply our National Defence Force. They have an order book of about R12 billion.



So, the amount we are giving to them is to enable it to do what is called their turnaround strategy and be able to deliver on that.



Transnet has challenges, people talk about all these other things, and there are challenges in relation to the past. But what are the key challenges facing Transnet? The first one is the locomotive challenges. Secondly, there are operational inefficiencies which they are addressing. Thirdly, vandalism has impacted on Transnet. There will also be pre conditions amongst those is structural reforms, for instance, on the rail infrastructure bring in a private sector competition. The same applies with ports.



The South African National Roads Agency, Sanral, is of a different nature. Its problem is caused by all of us this room. There is not a single party that did not participate in the campaign against e-tolls in Gauteng — not a single party. And that has an effect on the balance sheet of Sanral. The South African National Roads Agency’s problem is a political problem rather than its own efficiencies. Therefore, we are dealing with that political problem and taking the debt off Sanral in order for it to be able to be effective.



On Monday I enjoyed being part of a group of people who did three things. The South African National Roads Agency is now bidding using its balance sheet; it is building the Mtentu Bridge on the road from the road from Kokstad to Matatiele, R56. Interesting enough when I was working there I realised that over the next four years we will be spending about

R13 billion in that part of the region.



So, all of these things must be taken into account. What we are trying to do is to improve the balance sheets of these institutions in order for them to meet our developmental objectives. In doing so we are going to make sure that there are efficiencies gained in the delivery of those objectives. That is why even on Eskom we said we are not going to take the money in one day but we are taking it over two or three periods so that in each phase we derive efficiencies gained.

It is incorrect for members to think that it is purely a bailout and an unconditional bailout. We are improving their balance sheets for them to be able to deliver on those objectives.



House Chairperson, this Special Appropriation represent therefore a balancing act given the many competing priorities. The limited resources at our disposal and the need to address



priority areas that will secure a path to higher growth and fiscal sustainability. It is not going to crowd out social programmes. If you look at the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement which we have signed we have highlighted that key focus areas, health, education, infrastructure the police ... Minister of Police can attest to that. As we speak we are employing 10 000 police this year over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, we will be putting together another 15 000. It can’t then be correctly argued that we are crowding out social infrastructure. Hon House Chair, thank you.



Debate concluded.



Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.



Division demanded.



The House divided.



The House Chairperson, Ms M G Boroto, announced that the Speaker had determined that, in accordance with the Rules, a manual voting procedure would be used and that the whips would



conduct a headcount of members on the virtual platform for the purpose of ascertaining quorum and voting.



A quorum being present in terms of Rule 98(1), voting commenced.



[Take in from minutes]



Question agreed to.



Bill accordingly read a first time.






(Second Reading)



There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Bill accordingly read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African



Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).







(Consideration of Report)



There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.







(Consideration of Report)



There was no debate.



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.







(Subject for Discussion)






(First Reading debate)





Mnu N S BUTHELEZI: Besengike ngabingelela ngaphambili, Sihlalo, mhlawumbe awuthi ngiqale ngale ...





... you see state-owned enterprises in this country were used







 ... ukubhekana nenkinga yabamhlophe, amabhunu akuthi abahluphekayo emapulazini, uma ufika la emabhizinisini kaHulumeni, bekusebenza ugogo, kusebenze umkhulu, kusebenze u- anti, kusebenze ingane yakhona kubhekwane nezinkinga zokuhlupheka kwabo, naseposini futhi. Asizukuyivumela leyo ukuthi manje babe ngabasekeli abakhulu bokuthi la mabhizinisi azimele.





Hon Wessels, you guys, you have accumulated enough capital to wait for these state enterprises when you say they must be privatised and to get them for to nothing. And be rest assure we are not going to allow that.



The ANC support the 2022 Adjustment Appropriation Bill and the Medium Term-Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS. This Bill amongst others, hon members, is a new budget. Let me make that point. Rather the Bill talks about changes taking place on different votes mainly additions.



During MTBPS the Minister of Finance, hon Godongwana highlighted the following: Revenue collection exceeded February projections by whooping R83,5 billion. Consolidated



government expenditure will be R2,2 trillion this year rising to R2,5 trillion in 2025-26. Consolidated primary fiscal deficit is decreasing. Achieving primary fiscal surplus of 0,7% of GDP in 2023-24.



Good news, hon members, is that no budget reductions in the coming budget by the Minister in February 2023. Over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, government consolidated a spending building new and rehabilitating existing infrastructure doubles from R66,7 billion to

R112,5 billion. This is so will turn the tide from decreasing gross fiscal formation and start increasing it as a percentage of GDP which is critical for economic growth and employment.





Siyathemba thina ukuthi amabhizini kaHulumeni nalesi sabelomali uNgqongqoshe asibekile sizosiza ukukhulisa umnotho sinike abantu bakithi futhi amathuba okuthi baqashwe.





Chairperson, allow me to say to our people and our children that what exactly is covered in this Bill, it covers the following: Unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure for floods, R6,395 billion.





Abathi singawuxhasi lo lokhunjana asibazi bathi asibenze njani abantu bezikhukhula. Kufanele baqhubeke babhukude lapho?





Expenditure earmarked in the 2022 budget for future allocations is R500 billion. Declared unspent funds and projected understanding of R7,8 billion. That continues to worry us, hon members. For our educators and lecturers, I proposed an examination question about mid-term budget. That will make our children pay particular interest on budget and related matters which affect their future.



Hon members, total year spending adjustment amounts to


R13 billion including total adjustment appropriations per vote and adjustment estimate of direct charges against the national revenue fund.



The allocation for the devastating floods in KwaZulu-Natal are very much welcome. More will be said about this by my comrade who will speak after me. But the point we want to stress here hon members is that we would like most speed and cutting of unnecessary red tape and bureaucracy which delays service delivery to the victims.



The crowded people in shelters know that money has been appropriated but it takes forever for it to reach them. We urge the executives and the officials to treat disasters as disasters.



The pedestrian approach to this problem is completely unacceptable. Outer during the public hearing raised the issue of continuous rollovers on the Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant for the Vaal River pollution remediation project.

Millions and millions of our people in the industry and agriculture depend on the Vaal River ecosystem. It is very clear that money is not a problem hence the rollovers. Can this project be completed as a matter of agency? So, it is important to use money. There are cost associated with not using money. This money would have been more useful elsewhere. Remember hon members, money in the bank does not grow the economy and does not create employment opportunities.



As a committee we have identified two causes of underspending. The first one is the position of project management and contract management skills. We are therefore calling on the department to report this quarterly here in this Parliament what they are doing to correct this situation.



Secondly, the fact that understanding does not result in adverse audit finding is a problem. If we are to change this situation we are proposing that underspending should result in an audit finding and accounting officers should face music.



Hon members, in our report we note and are worried about the fact that the Municipal Infrastructure Grant has only been disbursed for about 48%.



Chairperson, at least if there is one thing we all agree upon hon Minister of Finance is that small businesses the world over are engines of economic growth and employment opportunities. Small businesses are growth enhancing. Hon Minister of Finance despite the huge responsibility and role of this department has the resources are located to them are negligible. A budget of about R2,7 billion for the whole of South Africa a big portion of these are transfers. We are not putting money where our mouths are.



We urge the National Treasury and Minister to exponential augment this budge. Look at the departments and agencies who do not spend and invest in small businesses. Reacted to this is the funding of economic transformation, Minister. I am referring to the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment. You



know Minister as well as I know black businesses have no resources. We are calling on the National Treasury to start looking at funding National Department of Finance, Services and Innovation and provincial development corporations.



These institutions understand the small business and broad- based spectrum environment. We caution when credit guarantee scheme was introduced against overreliance on commercial banks. Well, now it is commonly cost R200 billion provided not even 10% was disbursed. The cost to the economy in terms of jobs creations were huge. His Excellency the President enjoin us to rebuild differently during the launch of Enterprise Resource Planning Software, ERP. He said as even the darkest of clouds has a silver lining. We need to see this moment as a rancher with the past and an opportunity to drive fundamental and lasting change.



We are saying continuing with the arcade economic power relations cannot defined as rapture with the past. On the contrary, it is entrenching the skewed economic power relations.



Economic transformation and inclusion are historically constitutional and economic imperatives. We are urging the



Department of Trade, Industry and Innovation and National Treasury to come with affordable funding mechanisms for Broad- Based Black Economic Empowerment. Black companies are suffocated by cost of capital because of huge risk premium attached to them.



Hon members, if you must change the laws to fast-track black participation in the economy so be it. We have seen those who are hell-bent on defending apartheid and colonial benefits rushing to cross at the drop of a penny and challenging government when it attempts to change these economic power relations which contain with the black economic marginalisation. The challenge for us is even chase the Constitution if it is being abused to stop the rights of people to meaningfully participate in their economy. That we owe to our people and posterity.





Akukho soka ladla kahle imbangi ikhala.





Hon members, allow me to wish all of you merry Christmas, happy new year and a very safe festive season.








Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, governments across the world are grabbling with inflation and the cost of living crisis that has brought to millions of struggling households. The COVID pandemic was largely to blame. Economic activity was severely disrupted as lockdowns cause global supply chains to break down. Supply couldn’t meet demand crisis increased and when stimulus packages flooded the market with money there are already rises crisis accelerated and inflation rocketed.



During the pandemic the government intervened to support the vulnerable populations and our intervening now to soften the impact of ramped inflation that is the job of the government fiscal policy. Our experience in South Africa was not like other jurisdictions. Our government respond was always self interested and an opportunity to make money for themselves and their cronies. That is the systemic corruption that is brought us to the brink of the graded in February next year.



Yesterday’s report on Phala Phala has triggered a seismic political event. Markets are currently processing this new information and the likely income is economic growth even



slower than the very 1% currently projected for next year. Our economy was already on its knees before the pandemic began.

The director solves of unworkable policy that places an incapable and corrupt of the state at the centre of our economy.



Cadre deployment buckled the public service and BEE drained our economy of hundreds of billions by distorting the labour markets and introducing reins seeking middleman. This is not sustainable. Our economy is failing under an ANC government in terminal decline.



The mid-year budget set the tone for February next year and it wasn’t a pleasant sound. The Minister’s tough laugh that he promised for the hope bankrupt state enterprises never lasted long in state rewarded now Transnet and the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, Sanral, with R30 billion in hard earned taxpayers’ money and would add at least another R200 billion to our national debt that Eskom is unable to pay its many creditors. The Minister mentioned traders that need to be made and then chose bailouts before bread. Statistics SA reported that food prices have increased by 12%, transport 17% and bread by 20% year on year. Eight one percent of households



cannot afford putting enough food on the tables. The Minister never mention the cost of living once in his budget speech.



The finance committee chair and Deputy Minister have now joined the DA in recognising the cost of living crisis as a major problem. It’s time for you to join too, Minister. As debts servicing cost compound year after year more and more services delivery is crowded out. The Minister is unable to commit to continue the Social Relief of Distress Grant. Let alone implement Basic Income Grant because he knows he cannot pay Social Grant for much longer specially with raven state- owned enterprises that government cannot reform unless it changes the model and partners with the private sector.



The DA can ensure that Social Grants remain and provide better support of a growing enterprising economy. State-owned enterprises will never generate jobs and no amount can fix what the ANC has broken. Our economy cannot grow if borrowed monies cannot spend on building infrastructure and policies on labour and building entrepreneurship and small businesses not place. Yet, all we hear from the government is, we want to fund the state bank. Even if it makes the post office more bankrupt than is already and employee medical scheme don’t gat paid and people die as a result. Markets need stability. The



DA will soon launch our revised economic policy that set out clearly how we can achieve the growth that our economy is very capable of achieving. With effective and workable policy, we can build enterprising economy and have our employment before the end of this decade.



The government must focus on what it was elected to do build infrastructure, provide quality education, healthcare and support vulnerable members of our society. Stop stealing the people’s fight corruption and then get out of the way.



The Minister can lower the fuel levy to reduce the cost of transport and can lower the cost of food by 0 VAT rating and spend on food basket to include boning chicken, beef, tin beans, wheat flour, margarine, peanut butter, tea coffee, baby food and soup powder. Now we are all talking about the cost of living crisis. Next step, Minister, is to action and alleviate the plight of suffering South Africans households. In February we expect announcement on how government will accelerate economic growth and fight the high cost of living. Until then we do not support this budget. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair, the Economic Freedom Fighters, EFF, rejects the Adjustment



Appropriation Bill. The Bill tabled by the Minister seeks to make adjustments to the Appropriations Act passed by the Parliament early in this year and as the EFF we have rejected it. We rejected the Appropriation Bill due to the senseless budget cuts to the essential services in the absence of credible, practical and reasonable plans, to deal with the debt that is clearly out of control and the National Treasury that is failing to manage our debt. We are not shocked by the contents of the Appropriation Adjustment Bill before us today. What is most disturbing is that within the details of the so- called credible budget documentation of the National Treasury there is a programme to take from the poor to protect the interest of the few white minorities.



The Department of Social Development failed to spend


R1,8 billion meant for social relief and distressed grants. This was after thousands of young, old, men and women were turned away refused the relief and were told that there is no money. Yet, today we are told that these funds were declared unspent, what a shame. There are people who went to sleep Minister without food, lost their homes and were told that there is no money. People had to wake up in the middle of the night to be the first in line to withdraw the R350, only to be told there is no money. Some were even disqualified because of



the threshold to qualify was increased. As if this was not enough Minister, money meant for social grants is shifted to military operations that we know are pointless and money is shifted to misguided useless Presidential Climate Commission. The Department of Police is projected to have underspent R31,8 million. This R31,8 million that can pay salaries for women and men fighting criminals, sometimes under very difficult conditions, sometimes without even the tools of trade, but this money was unspent.



House Chairperson, as if that was not enough, there is money being shifted to deal with the repairs for flood damage infrastructure, but we just heard yesterday in the report of the Joint Ad hoc Committee on floods in KZN that money is being poorly allocated and it is not benefiting the intended beneficiaries. We are told there is no accountability and it is just a big bonanza while our people have lost their homes, their livelihoods and are left stranded. We rejected the proposed allocation of R18 million for the so-called initial cost to rehabilitate the parliamentary building damaged by fires because if anything this money should be used for is to do project planning, to move Parliament from Cape Town to Tshwane, Chief Whip.



We reject the proposed allocation for the R5,9 billion towards the debt service cost, which have become one of the most largest spending items Minister. We reject the proposed additional allocation to the Land Bank in the absence of strategic clear plan to reposition the Land Bank to serve black emerging farmers rather than the white farmers who have done very little to advance the food security objectives of the country. We reject the so-called Presidential Employment Initiative because we know that there are no jobs that are going to be created. The reality is that there is no will from middlemen of the cronies of the President. A President that we all know his days are coming to an end. What we have been vindicated. Thank you Chief Whip. The women of EFF have been vindicated by section 89 Panel’s report that the President must go. The women that were assaulted by the very same Protection Services of Parliament of this House in protecting the President, they have been vindicated through that report where their blood stains are still entrenched in this carpet by the way they were beaten up by the parliamentary Protection Services. However, somebody must whisper to the President in his ear that his gig as a President has come to an end. He must now focus on his other gig by focusing on selling cattle and his other gig that is waiting for him at Kgosi Mampuru Prison. I thank you. We reject this report.



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, I want to actually start from where hon Shenge, the Chairperson of the committee ended. I am not suggesting that the state of our SOEs are in good shape, not at all, but you forgot Shenge to go further when you were saying that these SOEs were job reserves for the whites - that is very true, but you were supposed to go further and say not only that even those that were less smart that is where they were dumped and be given jobs as senior managers. You also forgot to remind us that those of them who were very smart like Dr Bason were given a clear mandate to develop chemicals to destroy black people completely. The same people that we are talking about here, these SOEs were meant to destroy our social and family values because our fathers were taken from deep rural areas to cities and they were build compounds there yet their families were provided with decent houses and schooling facilities close to those ...[Inaudible]





Shenge ugcine kabi impela. Umsebenzi ke waleli komidi esingalo namhlanje la umqoka kakhulu ngoba waba izinkece zezwe futhi ke uma uzaba udinga ukuba uqaphelisise ukuthi uzame ngawo wonke amandla ukulinganisa izidingo ezincintisanayo zezwe. Lokhu ke



Sihlalo kudala ukuba uMnyango lo ucosule lapha nalaphaya, uzama ukuba uncelise amawele.





With the effect of a pandemic still looming the ever increasing employment rate our people are in despair. When such happens, it is cause for not just leadership but absolute leadership. The same way our people looked up to their leaders during the darkest days of apartheid, they are looking at us as their current leaders for solutions. South Africa is struggling, nothing seems to be working and our people are desperate. Therefore, government has to intervene. Our economy has reached a pause in growth and if our economy is not growing at the rate that we would like to then we unable to collect enough taxes to offer our people sustainable and adequate services that they deserve. There are no new businesses entering the market, halted economic growth and low tax collection meaning lower subpar output that has been allocated we ask that it is distributed fairly and used optimally. Revenue should be distributed in the manner that will have a rippling effect, trickling down fruitfully to all sectors. This will enable a safe and attractive environment for investment.



Currently with the wild wind of issues we face, we neglect to fulfill this responsibility which has kept our economy stagnant and not able to keep up with the demands of our people. The support towards SMMEs and township economy enterprises is key for our economy to grow not only will that address issues of unemployment, but also will play a significant role in preventing people from rural to cities, which is the issue that is causing so much pressure on service delivery in the cities.



We champion for people to be developed where they live and this can only be done through a special focus on revenue development on local township economies and exploitation of revenue generating opportunities in these areas. Special focus on local government can never be overemphasized, hon Chairperson, as this is the closest sphere of our people to their government and provides them with their very basic services. We cannot allow therefore, that any government department should actually not fulfil its mandate because that is actually compromising the very reason that we are here.





Uma ke siyoqinisekisa Sihlalo ukuthi izimali zonke zabiwa isenti nesenti ziya lapho kufanele khona. Ngicabanga ukuthi



njengale Ndlu kuyofika lapho kufanele sizigqaje ukuthi senze umsebenzi omuhle wabantu bakithi. I-IFP ke, njengeqembu lentando enhle yabantu iyawusekela lo mbiko.



Mr W W WESSELS: Chairperson, times are tough. The economy is not growing and people are suffering. In these times, correct decision-making and correct priorities are essential. Let’s have a look at the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.



Firstly, we see that an extra R3,6 billion is appropriated towards the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs for the management of the disaster. The point is that if this department functioned and if the Disaster Management Centre functioned as it should have, the effects of natural disasters would have been less and this money that is needed to be spent now would have been less.



Let’s then look at Home Affairs. An additional R1,298 billion, the bulk of which is for the so-called Presidential ...

Employment Initiative, of which R819 million is for goods and services.





Net nog geld om te steel.





Then we look at International Relations with an additional R102 million. Then we look at National Treasury and

R176 million is taken away. From what? From financial accounting and supply chain management systems. With the amount of looting and wrong procurement, I don’t think money should be taken away from there.



Then we look at the failed Transnet entity and the


R2,937 billion appropriated towards the flood damage. However, if Brian Molefe did not loot and steal, and mismanage Transnet, they would’ve had reserves to deal with the crisis, like any good business does.



Then R410 million is taken away from Public Works and Infrastructure. Only R896 000 is given additionally to Correctional Services ...





... terwyl daar baie ANC maatjies tronk toe gaan. So ek dink daar is meer geld daar nodig.






However, R1,708 billion is given additionally to the Department of Defence.





Vir wat? Gaan julle met die boogeyman oorlog maak? Maar Justisie kry slegs ’n addisionele R89 miljoen by en al hierdie vervolgings moet geskied. U is nie ernstig om korrupsie hok te slaan nie. En so gaan die lys aan en aan en aan.





The Minister calls its trade-offs. South Africans out there suffering because of a lack of public health care, because of a lack of policing ...



Mr A H M PAPO: Point of order. I wanted to check whether it is parliamentary for member Wessels to point at us with his finger like the old P W Botha?



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. We will check that one and come back. You may proceed.



Mr W W WESSELS: People are suffering because there is no policing ...





... want hierdie regering dink dat dit reg is om geld weg te vat van Polisie in hierdie aanpasbegroting.





A total of R31 million is appropriated away from Police because crime is under control, Minister.





Lekker slim.





People are suffering and those people will not call it trade- offs. Those people should call it treason. This government is committing treason against the people that are suffering out there because they do not get basic services, but then there are bailouts for failed state-owned enterprises, SOEs.



It’s ironic that the hon Buthelezi creates a narrative that the call for privatisation is because of personal enrichment but it’s under the ANC government that people from these SOES enrich themselves. It’s because of cadre deployment policies and the complete mismanagement by the ANC government that



money is needed for bailouts and that SOEs fail. The people are suffering. You should be ashamed.



Mr S N SWART: Chair, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, is focused on reducing the fiscal risks, narrowing the budget deficit and stabilising debt, while proposing measures to enhance economic growth. The ACDP really trusts that this will be achieved over the medium term. However, there are some issues which we would like to raise as to whether this is achievable given the severe challenges facing the nation, both domestically and globally.



As we know, there has been a slowdown in global economic growth due to the COVID-19 pandemic, high inflation rates and the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war which has impacted global supply chains. In addition, the USA and the UK, two important trade partners, are experiencing very high interest rates.



As we know, domestically the country is also recovering from one of the world’s hardest and longest COVID-19 lockdowns, last year’s unrest in KwaZulu-Natal and parts of Gauteng, the recent floods and of course ongoing power cuts, which are really impacting on struggling households and businesses with cost of living increases.



If you read the MTBPS and the documentation very carefully, it is interesting. You will see that the risks to economic growth are significant, or elevated is the word mentioned there. We as the ACDP have also expressed our concerns about the short, medium and long-term effects of the just energy transition and the financial impact that these loans and financial instruments will have on public debt. This will be in addition to Eskom’s debt relief programme which will result in government taking over a portion of Eskom’s R400 billion debt and which presents a further risk to the medium term and the fiscal outlook. An additional threat to the medium term and the fiscal outlook is of course unfunded spending pressures such as the public sector wage bill. All these issues are highlighted in the MTBPS.



I think an issue that we also need to discuss and which the ACDP holds a certain view on is the ... [Inaudible.] ... scale of monetary policy tightening by the Reserve Bank. Now, that is beyond the control of the Minister and National Treasury but the ongoing interest rate hikes in an attempt to rein in inflation is understandable, but it is severely impacting households and in due course it will also impact economic growth as we go forward. This needs to be considered and looked at as well.



On the positive side, the country’s public finances are looking slightly better, largely as a result of higher than projected revenue collection, of some R85,5 billion. You will remember that in a previous speech I commended the SA Revenue Service, Sars, in that regard. However, we are still concerned about the risks previously identified in the 2022 Budget that have materialised, such as bailouts, etc. What is needed is good stewardship of state resources. I thank you.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, in about 2013 the Treasury established the independent fiscal liabilities committee and the purpose of the committee was to manage, as it was coined then, contingent fiscal liability exposures that ... the government’s growing debt exposure to SOEs. Unfortunately, that never really got off the ground and as a result today we are talking about contingent liabilities having nearly doubled to more than a trillion, which is even one of the issues that was cited by the Financial and Fiscal Commission, which is close to 20% of the gross domestic product, GDP.



As you know, this poses a serious risk to the fiscus of the country. Lumped together with this is the fact that high debt service costs have made it more challenging for government to stabilise debt, which represents another fiscal risk to the



sustainability of public finances, especially when one considers that debt service costs had to be revised upwards by about R5,9 billion compared to the 2022 national Budget, increasing them to about R307 billion. This naturally crowds out fiscal space and productive expenditure, which is a major concern for a party like the UDM.



We make this point mindful of the fact that shortly after or long before the establishment or the call to establish the independent fiscal liabilities committee, we had proposed in Parliament that there was a need to develop fiscal rules which would ensure that we manage these budgetary aggregates.



One of the concerns we have as the UDM is the fact that week in and week out, or rather year in and year out, whenever allocations are made, not enough resources are allocated to the Department of Small Business Development, while this is very critical in the development of South Africa, especially when one considers the size of the informal sector in the country and the crucial element that this sector plays in terms of combatting poverty and unemployment in South Africa.



Government can never win in its efforts to address inequality, poverty and unemployment if it does not focus on empowering



the most vulnerable, whose livelihoods to a large extent, especially in periurban areas, townships and rural areas, depend on the informal sector.



Yes, we agree that various laws in the past have been enacted to try and support the informal sector. However, the critical concern is that the focus has only been to help the informal sector to graduate to the formal sector of the economy rather than to increase the size of that informal sector through decisive support that is targeted to specific industries.



It is true that the budget of R2 billion plus can never be able to deal with the huge requirements of the small business sector in South Africa because most of it in any event ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]





Liphela msinyane eli xesha, mabavote aba bantu, hayi.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, the NFP notes the report of the standing committee tabled here today. However, allow us to raise some of our concerns. First of all, in order to boost economic growth in this country, government is going to ensure that people on the ground have more money to spend.



If you look at what the prices of products and I think one of my colleagues alluded to the fact that is gone up by 12,6%. It means that people have less money to spend. The less money they spend; the more negative impact is going to have on the economy.



What we are not doing is accommodating 8% increase we have population growth in this country on an annual basis. We are not doing enough and I think it is a policy decision in order to boost economic growth through the manufacturing sector, particularly and agriculture.



Hon House Chairperson, like I said before, we have some of the most arable land in the world.



We have a very vibrant manufacturing sector, but the high cost of doing business in South Africa, is what hampering progress in the small business sector. That is compounded by the fact of having so much of imports that are coming in the country which is having a negative impact on the local manufacturing industry.



This hon House Chairperson, is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode.



If you look from the education sector, the skills that we have in the country, there is a massive shortage of information technology, IT, skills in the country and we are doing very little or nothing about that. We have a massive skills shortage, particularly in the trade sector, such as boiler makers, electricians, plumbers, etc, they are doing nothing because one department does not speak to the other.



Now, let us talk about the debt service point. Hon House Chairperson, we have raised this year-in-and year out, that you cannot continue to be borrowing particularly for consumption. Look at the pressure that you get from the public sector unions. Government is not able to sustain that. Yes, providing some sort of relief to the poor and vulnerable, particularly in terms of social assistance is welcomed.

However, can you sustain it?



Lastly, I want to say hon Chairperson, let us lead by example. We all acknowledged what the poor people and the vulnerable are suffering in this country. Political parties who can afford it, can you make adjustments to your funds and make sure, your staff are well taken care of, so that they too, can have a better festive season! Make sure you give them bonuses and increases that they deserve and take care of them. For



charity begins at home. Many of us are not doing that, but we come here and grandstand about the plight of the people. If we cannot help our own people, how are we going to help the people on the ground. So, let us practice what we preach and do more for our own people. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. [Time expired.]



Ms E D PETERS: Hon House Chairperson, let me go back to the accolades, hon Ministers and hon Deputy Ministers who are here today, hon Chief Whip, Comrade Majodina, hon members and fellow South Africans, I want to quickly say, to the hon Wessels, that he likes to come here and grandstand about money being stolen. He forgets to mention in the same sentence about the land that his fore bearers stole.





Julle oupagrootjies het die hele Afrika en veral Suid-Afrika gesteel. Nou moet ons ... [Tussenwerpsels.] Ja, dis ons Afrika. Hulle het die hele Afrika gesteel – van bo tot onder – en veral, Suid-Afrika. Nou moet ons “catch-up” speel om julle




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order hon members! Hon Peters, hon Peter, just one minute.



Hon members, order! Order, hon members!



Ms E D PETERS: Intergenerational, ill-gotten gains!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Peters! Hon Peters!



One minute, hon Peters.



Order, hon members!



I hope next time you will listen when I say order. I can really appreciate that. Do not drown the speaker. You can hackle, but please the hon Mlenzana, equally so. You may proceed, hon Peters. Thank you.





Me E D PETERS: Ja, hulle kekkel soos hane, as hulle hier is.





The ANC supports the 2022 Adjustment Appropriation Bill. Ladies and gentlemen, today, we commemorate the emancipation day. The 1st December, is the day on which enslavement of the



Cape was legally or rather the slaves of the Cape were legally freed, on 1 December 1834.





Ons mense was hier deur die kolonialiste op soos diere op markte gevat en verkoop. Hoe vergeet ons van ons eie Sarah Baartman, wat op skou moes tree, net omdat sy van ’n ander kleur was as die mense van Europa.





Hon members, the unemployment, poverty and homelessness, are most acute among women. These ills exposed them to gender- based violence which unfortunately is increasing in leaps and bounds in our country, as recently shared by the Minister of Police, the hon Bheki Cele.



The ANC believes to deal with the fatal blow to gender-based violence. We must improve the socioeconomic status of women. This being the period of the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-based Violence and Femicide, GBVF, we have no doubt that this Bill strives to alleviate that poverty and provide the necessary safety net to protect women and the most vulnerable sectors of our society. That is why the ANC



supports this Bill. We commit ourselves to fighting the scourge GBVF.



Comrade Nelson Mandela captured this point clearly when he observed and I quote:



Gender-based violence has serious fiscal, mental, economic and social repercussions. Moreover, it prevents survivors from achieving economic prosperity because of stigma, physical and psychological trauma caused by the violence they have experienced.



How many times have we heard that victims of this violence ended up being named because they were held prisoners by poverty?



There is a lot in this Bill which attempts to alleviate poverty that is most felt by women especially black women who have suffered triple oppression over the years.



Hon House Chairperson, we want to stress that the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, and this Bill continue to be propoor. This is so because about 60% of the consolidated



expenditure, continues to be on social wage, education, health social development, etc.



We welcome the additional R116,77 million to basic education for reconstruction and rehabilitation of schools which were damaged by the floods in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. It is also to note and welcome the proposed additional allocation of R618,8 million for the skills levy and sector education and training authorities. These allocations are about to carry the future of our young people. Who would say our young people should not be skilled to meet the demands of today’s economy and provide much needed jobs. The DA said so.



The ANC welcomes and supports the extension of the R350 Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant as announced by the Minister.

The recipients of this grant are very appreciative because it makes a big difference in their lives. At least they go to bed having eaten something.



However, we would like to make the following suggestions as the committee. The grants be adjusted for inflation. Since its introduction, it has been a R350. As we all know that inflation has been rising over the years. That means in retail terms the R350 has been decreasing.



The Parliamentary Budget Office and the Department of Social Development, reported that about 8 million of the 10 million have benefitted from the SRD Grant. The reason is heightened means has been the qualification criteria Comrade Minister, threw a lot of people out of the system. While we agree that there might been fraudsters, it cannot be 2 million fraudsters out there.



Consequently, it is estimated that only R33 billion of the R44 billion budgeted, will be distributed at the end of the fiscal year.



Money is being returned to the National Treasury. That cannot be justified in this climate, when so many of our people are living in abject poverty. We are therefore calling on National Treasury and the Department of Social Development to revisit the criteria that we achieve our initial objective.



Another problem, is that the grant is a stop and go mode. It is not known what happens after 2024, this creates a lot of uncertainty. The Department of Social Development, SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, recipients and other role-players making it difficult for them to play.



Hon Minister of Finance, we are saying, create a three-year certainty, while you are working on a permanent, acceptable and affordable social security arrangement.



Lastly, on this matter, Post Office play a critical role in our people accessing this grant. We are noting with a lot of premonition in the possible retrenchment of the Post Office workers ...



The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): May the Table staff give the hon member water.



Ms E D PETERS: For its importance for the poorest of the poor. We feel there is an urgent need for its recapitalisation. We say that knowing fully well the pressures of the fiscus, however, on the cost-benefit analysis, we feel government should intervene.



The ANC is committed to creating employment opportunities for our people. The Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, is calling for more funds for the Presidential Employment Initiative. We therefore welcome the allocation of

R500 million towards the programme.



Hon members, the ANC supports and welcomes R1,8 million, which goes to transport under unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. One billion rand is being allocated to Provincial Roads Maintenance Grant, R454 million, to SA National Road Agency Limited, Sanral, Long Tall network, R365 million to Sanral tall roads that were damaged by the floods in KwaZulu- Natal.



I guess we all agree that nobody would have foreseen the floods which destroyed a lot of the road infrastructure.



I fully with Vet at all, when they argue roads are artilleries which the economy pulses by linking workers to markets, students to school and the sick to hospital. Roads are vital to any development agenda. In other words, speaking about development without well maintained roads is a contradiction.



The opposition wants us to not agree with this Bill. What do they exactly mean when you say this Bill must not be supported? Are you saying the roads amongst others should be left like that after the floods? Is it what you are saying to those businesses who rely on those roads to must fend for themselves. Are you saying our children should not go to school because of the roads and bridges who were washed away?



Please tell the people of South Africa as to what you want to be happening to the roads in this country?



We also want to encourage the Department of Social Development


... [Time expired.]



Mr A N SARUPEN: Hon Chair, hon Buthelezi, the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Appropriations often says to me at the end of a meeting that I should not disagree with him. So, today, I am going to agree with him on one thing he said in his speech. He stood up here and said that the laws we have are not working for black people. He is right. BEE laws are not working for black people. They are leaving millions of black South Africans in poverty and making lots of ANC members very wealthy. So, hon Buthelezi, I agree, we must change the laws. Let us do it. I will help you.



A resolution to your conference that is coming up is to get your party to scrap BEE and we can take a system that empowers millions of poor people in this country and replace it. I am agreeing with you, so I hope that you are welcoming my agreements.



However, you also know that an ANC conference is coming up when an ANC MP tells us that there is something wrong with the Constitution. So, we have got that. I have been waiting and waiting for weeks to hear this, knowing the conference is coming up and Norbert Buthelezi delivered it today. So, I am always grateful for that, but we must focus on the key issues and the big issues came in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, speech, this year. It came at a time when we were battling the cost of living prices that have seen unaffordable spikes in costs of transport and fuel.



Many households are struggling to get by and the big drive of this is the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine that has spiked international oil prices. When the Finance Minister delivered the MTBPS, he made no mention of the cost of living prices and this is because he knew that instead of being able to provide fuel price relief, by extending the reduction in the fuel levy, he was going to have to give billions in the form bailouts to Eskom, which will be the largest bailout in South African history that will be a transfer of its debts onto the government balance sheets.



So, South Africans, in the coming years, are going to have to endure the government choosing SOEs over the livelihoods of



citizens. The proposed transfer of Eskom debt to the state means that the calculations that were given to us around the stabilization of debt to GDP were not accurate, because the debt projections are going to go through the roof. Servicing government debt is already the single most expensive line item in the budget.



Adding Eskom debt onto that, one has to ask: What are South Africans going to have to sacrifice for this bailout? Will it be the police, where the police to population ratio is poor, where we have one of the highest crime rates in the world and incredibly terrible response times from police? Will that be where South Africans will have to make sacrifices? Will it be in health care, where people go to clinics and queue from the morning to the afternoon to the evening, only to be given a Panando and get told to go home? Is that where people are going to have to make sacrifices? Will it be in school infrastructure, where primary school children currently are still using pit latrines, because the government is not building ablution facilities? Is that the sacrifice South Africans are going to have to make for the transfer of Eskom debts? What more must South Africans endure for the failures of this government and their desire to fund bailouts?



I can tell you what will not be cut. There will not be any cuts to VIP protection for Ministers and the President. More money, hon Finance Minister, is spent on VIP protection than on land reform. Please, hone in on that when you deliver your February Budget Speech. I hope there will be something different this year.



There will also not be any cuts to – I a am willing to bet – the government events that turn into ANC rallies, to shore up their political support. I am willing to bet that there will not be any cuts to the 30 000 millionaire manager positions in government that have become sheltered employments for the ANC cadres. So, we hope, come February, that we are proven wrong.



However, based on the track-record of this government, it is self-evident that we are probably going to be facing disappointments, when we see a budget that puts the needs of the ANC ahead of the needs of the people. And so, we will not support this Budget, not because we don’t want roads to work. Of course, we want roads to work, of course, we want schools to be functional. We want the best public services for all citizens. I hear the ANC members says that they don’t care.

That is fine. You don’t have to care about schools; we do.



However, when we say that we do not support the Bill, it is because of your bad priorities and your failure to implement. Thank you.



Mr Z MLENZANA: House Chairperson, you know, if this was a pulpit and I was to deliver a sermon, my theme would be “On the Power of the Purse and the Impact of the Budget”. One other thing ...





... ke Madiba edla ngokubasokolisa aba bantu xa beseqongeni kukuza kugqushalaza apha, bakhwaze baqhwabelane izandla ...





... but in terms of content, there’s nothing, ask them. Dealing with complex political dynamics, is not simple mathematical induction. Where you just say if A is equal to B and B is equal to C and therefore, it implies that A is equal to C. These are politics, so ...





... asikho kuloo nto apha.






... the global and domestic economic climate in which the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement was tabled this year, painted a bleak picture, particularly for the developing economies, like ours, South Africa.



You can talk COVID-19 pandemic also coupled with the Russia-Ukraine war, which also put more pressure on us. You

can also talk of a 2021 July unrest, the KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, Eastern Cape and the North West floods, which also added. It is against this context that the ANC welcomes the provisions and shifts which are made in this adjustment, appropriation Bill.



I have said we should be impact focused ...





... singenzi nje.





... the ANC welcomes the R3,2 million allocations for the municipal disaster recovery grant for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of the municipal infrastructure damage by floods in KZN, North West and Eastern Cape.



As well, as R247,6 million to replenish the municipal disaster response grant, the R96,8 million for the provincial disaster response grants. We further welcome the allocation of

R183,4 million for the deployment of the SA National Defence Force members under the standing operation chariot to provide humanitarian assistance.



You know this one, this operation has seen up to 10 000 SA National Defence Force, SANDF, personnel committed to flood ravaged parts of KZN Province.





Uyabona ke bantu abangabahoyanga abantu bakuthi ...





... they see nothing in that. When ...





... ubona phaya ...





... those soldiers, in boots and shovels making roads ...






... ebezingahambeki, zihambeka ...





... doing surveys and other civil engineering tasks, to bring roads and bridges to state ...





... ukuthi, abantu bakuthi bakwazi ukba ...





... safe and sound ...





... bakwazi ukubuyela ...





... back into humanity. I understand ...





... bakhona abangenamsebenzi nale nto ithi bubuntu babantu bakuthi ...





... who would always make it a political rhetoric ...





... le nto yobuntu babe bona bengenabo ubuntu.





... when actually ...





... bona bengenabo Ubuntu ...





... and you begin to doubt if ...





... bona bangabo abantu kusini na ...





... because, it may happen that ...





... baphela Ubuntu, kwabona abasengabo abantu.





You know, the floods took away, the most important rights ...





... yabahluba abantu bakuthi, la maxhoba ...





... their human dignity. You know, there’s that theory by Maslow ...





... xa athetha ngeemfuneko ...





... you know ...





... xa sithi, eyona ...





... basic need is shelter, which is very, very critical. Hence then, you will notice that there’s a total amount of

R442,1 million, which is, you know is set aside for such. And further, there’s an allocation of R48,5 million to the provincial Department of Social Development for continued care and protection of such flood victims.



But then, I think House Chairperson, there’s one thing we have to mention ...





... ndiyabeva ke apha bayayikhumsha le nto Madiba yokuzanywa ukuba kuphehlwe ubukho bemali ukuze kusetyenziswe le mali ukunceda abantu bakuthi. Bona beme ngento yokuba masihlawule ityala (service the debt.) Oko bethetha nokuhlawulwa kwetyala, awubeva bethetha ngokunika abantu bakuthi iinkonzo.






... they are not interested in that. I will come in minute or so ...





... kula nto ibithethwa nguShenge apha ngamaqumrhu aphantsi korhulumente. Eyona nto ndifuna ukuyithetha apha yile ithi ...





 ... a budget without impact is not a budget. Look, Madiba at what you did in the Eastern Cape, through the South African National Roads Agency, SANRAL, I think we have to mention that and...





... sikwenzele ...





 ... a round of applause. You know what SANRAL is actually doing ... yes SANRAL is there for road infrastructure development. But look at the impact of such. Look at the economic development that such project is bringing. How many people, poor people, black people for that matter?





Mhlawumbi ke nina anikwazi ukusokola kwabantu abamnyama ...





... that is why ...





... niza kuba nengxaki ...



... because you don’t care for them ...






... niza kumana nisiya kubakhangela njee, nibaqhwabise, nihlalise abe mnye apha ngaphambili nimenze ngokungathi ngoyena ungcono, nibe nisazi ukuba ...





... you are the main drivers, because you don’t care for ...





... abantu bakuthi.





Yooo, this agitates my anger House Chairperson. Because it makes me think back you know, 1985 we used to sing and think that ...





... ezi ziphukuphuku zamabhujwa ... zezi zayinyathetha ngenyawo imarxism, kwaye ufumanise ukuba ...





... you know ...





... zezi zayinyathela ngeenyawo ...





... the Marxism ...





... kwaye ufumanise ukuba ...





... as we speak now ...





... baxakekile ngoku ...





 ... they are draining the intestines of our liberation movement, you know, they want it hollow. They are having this political mentality ...





... ongayaziyo ukuba bayithatha phi ...





... this rhetoric. Definition ...






... ongayaziyo ukuba ithathwa phi ...





... of a cadre. Trying to equate a comrade to a cadre.





Ngenye imini, kuza kufuneka ukuba le nto yenu ...





... of cadre deployment ...





... nikhe nifundiswe ngayo ...





 ... that if somebody is a comrade, it doesn’t mean that person is a cadre. A cadre is developed after which then, once






... ibonwe ukuthi ivuthiwe ...





... then deployed. And ...





... asizi kuvumela nina ukuba sithathe ...





... your reactionary tendencies ...





... sizifake ...





 ... into a progressive government. That’s contradiction in terms, we are not going to allow that, we are not going to allow that ...





... Nicinge ukuba siza kuthatha oongqondo-gqwirha sibafake ...





 ... within the system of our government, so that they begin to stall the progressive programmes of our government ... [Interjection.]



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mlenzane ...





... sowenyuke kakhulu ...





The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): ... there is a point of order, Hon Gwarube.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I’m wondering if the hon member will take a question?



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon member are you willing to take a question?



Mr Z MLENZANA: ... not from you.








UMBHEXESH OYINTLOKO WEQELA ELIPHIKISAYO: Uyabacaphukela abantu abamnyama, awubaboni abantu abamnyama uthi ...





... they are puppets.





Uyabacaphukela abantu abamnyama, awubaboni abantu abamnyama uthi ...





... they are puppets. Shame on you.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gwarube, he said no. A point of order, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, and order, from the virtual platform please.





Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi, uyarhuba lo tata qha.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, hon Kwankwa, there ‘somebody on the floor.





asked if hon Mlenzana was going to take a question. And as he was responding with that no, he is not gonna take a question. And she then started ... hhayi suka [go away] ... [Interjection.]



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order, order, order! Hon members please.








Mr B NODADA: Suka!



THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... started attacking and gave statement about hon Mlenzana. That is out of order, she must just withdraw the last part. It was okay for her to ask if the member is going to take a question but the further statement that she has uttered here, is out of order.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gwarube, may you please stand up. It is being said that you said wrong utterances to hon Mlenzana [Interjection.] no, no you are not going to interfere, you are not going to, okay, thank you ... [Interjection.]








The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): ... hon Gwarube, please let me first deal with somebody on the platform. Hon Kwankwa, if you do it for the second time, I will ask information communications technology, ICT, to take out. You are doing it deliberately. Hon Gwarube ...






The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): ... you asked hon Mlenzana who is in the platform, would he take a question? And he responded to you. You know better that shouldn’t have continued.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I just wanted to know if he hates black people?



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gwarube, I will come back to you to make a ruling.



An HON MEMBER: Out of order!



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Gwarube, I don’t need even to check, you know it better, the statement just you’ve just made. You have to withdraw it, it’s wrong.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I withdraw, House Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Mlenzana, you may proceed.



Mr D BERGMAN: House Chairperson, on a point order!



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): You are raising your hand; you are doing both at the same time. Thank you, you may.



Mr D BERGMAN: House Chairperson, after that the Chief Whip of the House, then uttered a very, very horrible word to one of our members and I think she should be asked to withdraw [Interjection.] Why must I say the word ... [Inaudible.] ... for the House ... [Interjection.]



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): You have just made a point of order, don’t repeat what your colleague has done. I am trying now, to assist you. Okay please, can I assist you. May I assist you, may I check with the front table, so that I come back you. I will verify with the front table. No, we will check with Hansard because the front table didn’t hear. Thank you, we will come back to you, we will come back.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, on a point of order!



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Ntlangwini, I will come back[Interjection.] hon Ntlangwini.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, I hope that you will come back within this sitting. So, all of the rules given to all of the members not one sided. So, hopefully you will come back in this sitting.



And, secondly to that House Chair, there have been ANC members interjecting on the virtual platform throughout the sitting and you are not reprimanding them, you are not taking them on. The hon Judith it’s one of them, they just interject whenever someone from the opposition is raising points of orders and it’s wrong. You must call them out or throw them out of the House. Follow the rules, stop being biased when you are taking that position as the chairperson. Follow the rules to the teeth. Whether it’s your party members as well. Thank you.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, on a point of order!



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, I will come to the later part, I take your point. Hon Chief Whip, would you like to repeat.





“hhayi suka” so hhayi suka, it’s not an insult. “Hhayi suka” because as I was speaking they interjected and I said “Hhayi suka”, so if it’s an insult let me hear from you [Interjection.] you don’t know the meaning of “hhayi suka”, it means go away ... [Interjecting.]



Mr X NQOLA: Please go away, that’s what it means.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Nqola, may I just deal with members on platform. Order hon members, order, order hon members! You will also complain that I’m biased. Hon members on the virtual platform, starting from hon Nqola now. If you repeat it, I am going to eject you, as moving forward, it equally goes to hon Kwankwa ... [Interjection.]



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson, I ... [Interjection.]



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): ... no, not now let me complete my sentence.





Mr N L S KWANKWA: Uxolo.



USIHLALO WENDLU (Ms R M M Lesoma): Ewe, enkosi.





Hon J T Tshabalala as well, just mind your mic don’t interject unnecessarily, because I will definitely take/throw out all of you. Thank you very much.



Hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party, you have repeated that, unfortunately that’s not a point of order, there’s no need for you to withdraw. Unless if there’s any problem with that, you need know what to do, you we will take it to the Rules Committee. Thank you, now we may proceed ...



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson!



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Kwankwa, would you like to make a point of order?



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, not everyone who speaks IsiXhosa on the platform in Nqabayomzi. I mean there are other people who made interjections, who spoke IsiXhosa who are my



colleagues but you actually reprimanded ... [Inaudible.] ... for something I haven’t done. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Okay, you wanted to make a point of order, okay point noted on that. We will proceed hon members. Hon Mlenzana you may proceed.





Mnu Z MLENZANA: Zizimbo ke zabathumi, aba bantu kuthiwa ziinkosi (masters). Bayazibonakalisa nangoku okokuba ...





 ... if it was chess, there would be a pawn and the kings and queens, would be behind ...





... kudlalwe ke ngala-pawn. Xa ibethiwe ke i-pawn, ziqale ke ngoku zivele iibhishophu neekumkanikazi. Okwesibini, ndiyafuna ukuthi xa nimana ukuthetha ngamasela, kudala ke ndiyithetha le nto.






 ... comrade Shenge, you are talking here of state-owned enterprises, I think it is high time that you should go back






Sihlalo, kudala ndiyithetha ke le nto yokuba masikhe siye kujonga ukuba ...





... who did what, after 1989 in term of these state-owned enterprises, SOEs, but then we are not there...





Nihambe niye kuphumla kakuhle emakhaya, nonwabe nisazi ukuba i-ANC ...





... is going to dish out the budget, is going to make sure that ...





... abantu bakuthi bayaphuhla. Nani nihlale neentsana zenu, niqokelele, nihoye nala makhosikazi kunye nooJohn nabanye enibasebenzisa ezigadini nibaphe ikrisimesi ...





... and take care of those pawns ...





... enizibeke ngaphambili, zingabi mgabaxhoba okokuba nina





... as kings and queens ...





... nikwazi ukuba nidlale ngabo.





I thank you, House Chairperson.





UMPHATHISWA WEZEMALI: Sihlalo weNdlu, ndiza kuyityeshela intetha yam ebendiyicwangcisile, ndifuna ke amalungu afake ezi zinto zifakwa apha endlebeni. Ndifuna ukhe ndiqhabalake kwezi zinto zixoxwa apha ngaba bantu. Oosomashishini abasakhasaya







 ... is what the Constitution recognises as the concurrent function.





Loo nto ithetha ukuba, xa ujonga kuzwelonke, uhle uye ephondweni uya kufumana ukuba kukho ii-arhente zophuhliso ezifanele ukuba ziququzelela le nto. Ndithe kugxa wam, onguMphathiswa weli sebe, andali nemali kodwa masiqale senze into enye. Masibize bonke aba bantu bathi bancedisana noosomashishini abasakhasayo kumaphondo ukwehla, ukuya koomasipala. Siqokelele imali kwiphondo ngalinye eliyisebenzisayo siyijonge ukuba ingaba isetyenziswa ngendlela efanelekileyo kusini na. Siza kuyenza ke loo nto.



Kulula ebantwini ukuba bathi masingalithathi ityala lika- Eskom. Ingxaki kwela tyala lika-Eskom ...





... is that 70% of the total debt is guaranteed by the state.





Ukuba u-Eskom uyahluleka ukulihlawula ela tyala, kuza kuziwa kurhulumente ukuba alihlawule noba kukanjani. Ngoku ke, ayilulanga le nto ithethwa ngabahlonipheki abakweli cala. Enye



into, kulula ebantwini ukuthi iindleko zokuphila masiziqwalasele. Xa uthetha kanjalo musa ukuthetha uziphikisa. Musa ukuthi makwehliswe irhafu kuphinde kwakhona kunyuke inkcitho. Loo nto leyo ibulele urhulumente ...





 ... of England, which is conservative, by the way. Markets discipline those kind of people.





Bahleli iintsuku ezingama-48 qwaba kurhulumente. Ayisebenzi into yokunyusa imali uthobe irhafu. Yiyo loo nto urhulumente wabo wahlala iintsuku ezingama-48 wawa, bhuma.





They are conservative just like you and markets do not care whether you are conservative or not ...





 ... bayakubhukuqa qha qwaba. Into ekungathethwanga ngayo nendingakhange ndiyive namhlamnje yinto yokuba kule kota sigqitha kuyo ...






... there is a net effects of employment of 250 000 people.





Kule nto yeli tyala kuthethwa ngalo ngaba bantu, into ebonakalisa ukuba abayifundayo kwale Nthetho yoHlahlo-lwabiwo mali yaPhakathi enyakeni (Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement). Ungaya nawe uyifunde, khange bayifunde. Bathi asikwazi ukuliphatha kakuhle ityala kodwa ukuba ungajonga phaya, ityala liyehla ukusukela kuma-74,69 ukuya kuma-69 ekhulwini ngowama-2025. Kuthetha ukuthini ukuba asikwazi ukuphatha kakuhle ityala? Ityala lelizwe (deficit) isuka ku- 4,9 layokuma ku – 3,2 ekhulwini. Loo nto ibhalwe kula ncwadi bangayifundanga. Umntu asuke aze kuma apha eqongeni abe engayifundanga la ncwadi ineNtetho yoHlahlo-lwabiwo mali yaPhakathi eNyakeni (Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement).

Akunjalo madoda, fundani nimamele.



IBhanki yoMhlaba ibilapha ekomitini ichaza ukuba uhlengahlengiso luhamba njani. Ikomiti yonke emva kwenkcaza yanqwala, yaqhwaba kodwa ngoku kuphakama umntu apha ebuza ukuba inikwa njani imali kodwa ayenzanga hlenga-hlengiso.

Injani kanti le nto? Ibisandula kuqhwatyelwa apha ikomiti. Inoba akahlali nokuhlala kulaa komiti lo mntu ebethetha loo nto. IDenel ibinomboniso phaya ePretoria. Xa ndifika phaya



ndifumana ikomiti yasePalamente. Onke amalungu ala komiti ebephaya ebesithi nceda uxhase iDenel. Onke amalungu ala komiti, asuka kumaqela opolitiko onke asePalamente esithi ukwenzela ukuba incedise umkhosi. Ndixela aba babephaya, wena awuthethanga ngomkhosi, ndixela aba babekhona. Babekhona, andithethi ngoNdiva mna, ndandibabona ngeenkozo ezi zamehlo.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, just concentrate on your speech, please.





UMPHATHISWA WEZEMALI: Ngoku xa befika apha balwa nalaa nto babethe mandiyenze kuDenel. Injani kanti into yaba bantu? Kula ncwadi ...





 ... it says, 59% is on the social wage. On social services, members are saying we are cutting on the social wage.





Andiyazi ukuba ihamba njani loo nto.



Mandilungise umahluko phakathi kweposi nebhanki yeposi, kwaye ukhona. Imali yenkam-nkam ihlawulwa kwibhanki yaseposini.

Hayi, uyigqibele kudala ibanki yaseposini. Yiposi le uthetha ngayo wena engamanga kakuhle. Ndiyayivuma loo nto kangangokuba iingxaki zayo zikwi-R23 billion azikho kule mali incinci kuthethwa ngayo. Siyazijonga ke ezo mali.



Masize kwezempilo ke ngoku. Ndiyanicela bantwakwethu xa sisiza apha kufuneka niyifunde la ncwadi ukuze nindigxeke ngento ekhoyo, hayi into engekhoyo.





In the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, we say the Department of Health is R25 billion.





Ndithe apha kweli qonga ...





 ... one of the things we need to do is the restructuring of the management.






Ohloniphekileyo uSarupen, uthi eli sebe linabaphathi abaninzi. Sithi phaya ...





 ... there are almost 200 small public entities dependent on the fiscus. They employ about 160 000 people.





Sithi kule ntlanganiso ...





 ... we are going to restructure that. There are 200 of them employed but 160 000 of them are earning higher. Some of them are earning R4 million doubling the salary of the Director- General of the Treasury. It cannot be correct.





Sithe siza kwenza uhlenga-hlengiso kwaye kufuneka abantu bayijonge loo nto bangathi asiyithethanga apha.

Mnta’kaMlenzana ndifuna ukongeza enye into oyishiyeleleyo.





R61 is on tender. We are moving ...





 ... ukukhawulelana neemfuno zabantu baseMzantsi Afrika. Sithe chuu ukukhawulelana neemfuno zabantu baseMzantsi Afrika.

Bendifuna ukuxelela uMaWushe ukuba kwezi tulo zihlala abantu ngapha, uSeremane wayehlala apha, uLindiwe Mazibuko noMaimane nabo babehlala apha. UTony Leon wathi, uMaimane ...





... is a failed experiment.





Kufuneka ke uMaWushe athi chuu, asebenze kakuhle akhokele. Ngaloo mazwi ke ndicela sovane ekugxekeni into ekhoyo, nifunde uhlahlo-lwabiwo olukhoyo kakuhle nibuye nisigxeke ngento ekhoyo. Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu, uyabona ukuba ndisenomzuzu oshiyekileyo. Ndiyehla.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Tshwete, thank you very much.



Debate concluded.



Question put.



Agreed to.



First Reading debate – Adjustments Appropriation Bill.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, you may be seated.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, order, hon members. I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on which votes they will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process for this session. Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of the question and answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustment has been made, and in turn, members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of these adjustments.



Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Members of the Executive have up to two minutes per Vote to respond to questions. Hon members, there have been requests



from parties that, in some instances, they will use their allocated time to make declarations instead of asking a question. Do you want me to repeat? Hon members, there have been requests from parties that, in some instances, they will use their allocated time to make declarations instead of asking a question. This will be allowed.



Naturally, where a declaration instead of a question has been made, there will be no expectation for a reply. Once a party’s time has expired, its members will not be allowed to put further questions. Members may put a question from the floor, microphones in the Chamber or from the virtual platform. I want to believe that you have logged in and the Table staff have logged in so that we can be able to recognise those on the virtual platform.



Members will be recognised based on the link submitted by parties. After the question and answer session, I will put the votes for decision. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them, before putting their question. I hope we agree, and that we are going to flow together.



Vote No 1 – Presidency – put.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Mbhele. You can use your microphone, but I won’t say you shouldn’t come to the podium. It’s up to you.



Declarations of Vote:




Mnu Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.





With the release of the section 89 Independent Panel Report last night, we once again find ourselves as a country facing an unprecedented crisis centered on the President of the Republic, and it brings to mind the famous lines from a much loved Mzanzi 90s comedy classic show ...





... “Yaqala inkathazo madoda.”





From the HIV/Aids denialism and quiet diplomacy under President Mbeki, to Nkandla Gate and the prolific state capture under President Zuma, to the Phala Phala scandal under President Ramaphosa, the ANC has been nothing if not consistence in delivering constitutional delinquency. In each



instance, although the warning bells were rung early, and called for accountability and corrective action, were proposed by the DA from the get go, it took a painstakingly long process, before allegations were probed, offenders brought to book or matters report on the right path.



In each instance, the country and Parliament found themselves scrambling at the 11nth hour, to prevent matters going over the precipice, because the state architecture for oversights over the President and Presidency, is fast and minimal. Four oral official appearance per year are simply not enough. So, to the Minister and the President, will they agree that, it is high time, for the establishment of a Portfolio Committee on the Presidency, and would they commit to proactively addressing a supported process for that, so that this shortcoming is addressed?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon Singh, what is it?



Mr N SINGH: It’s a short declaration, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I can’t hear you.



Mr N SINGH: A declaration.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is happening here is your choice, whether you put a question or you make a declaration, because a global time is about both, yes.



Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, before we proceed, I think that we must first get the response from the Presidency because there was a question.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Ntlangwini.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I have indicated to the Table staff that we will be asking a question on this Vote.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I’m not done. We have started, the DA has already asked their question, now it must be responded o, then I will call the next party that has indicated to speak.






The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Now, hon members, if you did not indicate that you will be asking a question or you will be doing a declaration, it means you are not on my list, and I would like you to do that now. Like for instance, the IFP, you don’t appear on the list that I have. So, you did not register for your declaration as you request. But this is an open window that I will be closing soon. Make sure that you contact the Table staff if you want to do that.



Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much for your indulgence, hon Chair, may I proceed?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, we will need an answer first from the Presidency, Vote 1. There was a question by hon Mbhele.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): Chair, from the Presidency point of view, accountability is what we are committed to, and it is not up to us to prescribe how we should account, that is the decision of the Parliament, I wish to state. For instance, I dare say to you that, you have not seen a President who, after receiving investigation reports,



immediately throw them online without editing them, that is a direct intention to account. So, we have got no issues, as long as we are directed by the Parliament. That is the little response I would make, hon Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. I am being advised that, if we have the DA, the EFF and the ANC first, they must all ask before the response. I agree. Also, let’s just remind those that are responding from the Executive that, you only have two minutes per Vote. ... [Interjections.]...

So, anyway, that is how we are going to proceed. Let me call the EFF.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair. In October you declined, Minister, any suggestions that, our own State Security Agency had any role to play in the cover-up by the President, of the Phala Phala Farm robbery. The Independent Panel report released yesterday indicates the following on paragraph 1 (70):



We are satisfied as the matter of probability that the South African authorities that met the Namibian police authorities at the “no man’s land, was the team that was investigating the burglary and the theft at the Phala Phala. On the



information presented to us, this was the General Rhoode’s team. They went to Namibia as part of their investigation of the crime committed at Phala Phala.



Do you still deny the involvement of our State Security Agency, in the cover-up of the crime? If you do, how probable are you that, the operation of this nature would take place without the knowledge of the State Security Agency? Thank you.



Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson, the issue of the establishment of Vote 1, is a matter for Parliament, I agree, and I could also say that, the IFP has put a formal proposal before the Rules Committee which was considered by Sub-Committee on Rules, and there has been work done in that regard.



One of the things done is that, the IFP contended that, there are large parts of that budget in Vote 1 that are not accounted for, and this was confirmed by the Public Budget Office. All I can say is that, watch the space, our proposal will be accepted by the Rules Committee, and we will have a Vote1 sooner than later. Thank you.



Mr L E MOLALA: Thank you, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, hon Molala.



Mr L E MOLALA: Thank you, House Chair, my question on Vote 1 is, the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, recorded an underspending of R2,426 million. How is the Minister and the department going to mitigate against this, and what measures are in place to direct the govern information to the most rural of our country to ensure that, even those that are in deep rural areas are aware of the government’s programmes and opportunities? I thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Pandor, your hand is up. Minister Pandor?





you, Chairperson, I wish raise a point of order, if you would allow, and I would seek your guidance that, we have a Rule of anticipation in the Rules of the National Assembly. Therefore, if a matter has to come before the House, should it be debated in this particular sitting? This concerns the Independent Panel Report which two members have referred to, and my understanding is that, the report will come before this House in a very short time. So, I need your guidance to whether we



are in bridge of that rules at this point? Thank you, Chairperson.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, I agree with you. But I have left it for the Minister to respond. What I can say is that, Rule 90, which is a Rule of anticipation says that, no member may anticipate the discussion of a matter appearing on the Order Paper or agreed upon by the programming committee for scheduling. You are correct, but for now, I will allow the Minister to respond.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I think that the issue of the SSA we have dealt with it already. I want to leave it with you, in as far as the anticipatory rules are concerned. On the GCIS, I want to take note of what the hon member has said, I also want to say it upfront that, as the GCIS, we just cannot afford such under expenditure, and I think that it must worry us because, there’s a lot of, as you have already said, far slums areas that need support in as far as communication is concerned. So, there is no justification for under expenditure. It is a matter I want to take note of, and I will take it positively to follow it up.

Thanks, hon Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon Ntlangwini, your hand is up.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much, House Chair. House Chair, it is not that we are getting any answers today, even from the Minister in the Presidency, and it is quite a shame that we as the Members of Parliament taking our time to formulate these questions, pertaining to the Minister’s role of office. He is the Minister in the Presidency, and these entities belongs to him. So, to use now a Rule of anticipation, is yet again wanting to dodge questions ... [Interjections.]... She wants to do it again, she must stop it.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think I hear you. Alright, hon member, the Rule of anticipation is one of the rule that we have agreed upon in this House, and if a point of order is raised, I have to respond to it, and that is what I just did. Thank you very much. So, hon members, those are the only parties that wanted to either ask questions or make a declaration on the Presidency, and the answers have been given. We now move to Vote 2.



Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.



Vote 1 agreed to.



[Take in from Minutes.]



Vote No 2 – Parliament – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.



Declarations of Vote:


Ms E R J SPIES: House Chairperson, it is clear that the implementing agent fees for the Community Works Programme, CWP, have become a significant cost item on the Cogta budget. Ideally, with the country’s high unemployment rate and the rising costs of food, 80 to 90% of the CWP budget should be spent on targeted beneficiaries. Can the Minister come clean and outline the steps that her department has taken to rationalise the high fees that are being paid to implementing agents and provide us with a fully costed plan of how the



implementing agents fees will be reduced over time or scratched in its totality? Minister, what was the obvious governance intervention necessary and why, on ANC objectives and policies, should you not wholeheartedly have contempt for failing the poorest of the poor in the poverty epidemic?



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, first of all, could you tell us what additional measures you have put in place to deal with the high levels of corruption at local government level. Secondly, and very importantly, with the additional allocation that we have now provided, particularly as a result of the flooding and crumbling infrastructure, given the fact that we have a lack of capacity to ensure that the infrastructure is maintained, what measures will you put in place to ensure that, when these resources are made available, they are able to implement and ensure that we have capacity there to prevent our infrastructure crumbling to the extent it is currently?



Mr B M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, the unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure that resulted in an adjustment budget to the Vote was allocated for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of the municipal infrastructure damage arising from the floods. The ad hoc committee that carried out an



oversight on the necessary reconstruction and rehabilitation has arrived at a conclusion that the quality of the expenditure left a lot to be desired. Hon Minister, in your assessment of the quality of the R3,2 billion that was set aside for the purpose of the adjustment, would you say this is true? Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those are the only parties that have indicated and I think I have given everybody enough time now to register if they want to either ask a question or declare. From here henceforth, I will not be adding somebody who is not given to me by the table staff. I am closing. Thank you.





Mev Van der Merwe, wat is dit? Kan jy hier kom en met hulle praat, en dan is alles in die haak.





AFFAIRS: House Chair, hon members, thank you for asking questions and making comments. Maybe, I will just start with the question on the capacity of local government. It is true that, in many municipalities, the capacity of the



administration is not what it should be or what should be desired. There are objective and subjective reasons for that.



The objective reasons for that is that, in some of the municipalities, there are small municipalities in indigent communities. They are therefore not able to raise the resources they need, because we made an assumption, when local government started, that every municipality would be able to raise its own resources, which is not the case. Hence, we are discussing and we are hoping that we will eventually come to a conclusion with Treasury about the division of revenue. It should be altered, so that the local government does get enough resources to hire the professionals that they need, whether it is plumbers, engineers, CFOs, MMs.



So, those are some of the objective reason. Sometimes, even when they do get the engineers in that space, they don’t stay long, because of the salaries that they get from municipalities. [Time expired.]



House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick announced that, the Speaker had determined that, in accordance with the Rules, a manual voting procedure would be used and that the whips would conduct a headcount of members in the chamber and on the



virtual platform for the purpose of ascertaining quorum and voting.



A quorum being present in terms of Rule 98(1), voting commenced.



AYES – 196: (ANC – 187; IFP – 7; Good – 1; NFP - 1).



NOES – 107: (DA - 67; EFF - 29; FF Plus - 6; ACDP – 4; PAC – 1).



Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 4 – Government Communication and Information System – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 5 – Home affairs – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Declarations of Vote:


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, a recent report to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs confirmed that South Africa is now home to 15 million undocumented persons. These are citizens and noncitizens. This means that almost a quarter of South Africa’s population is unaccounted for.

Fifteen million people are using government services, without contributing to tax or VAT. Fifteen million people are untraceable, if they commit crime. Fifteen million people are taking up job opportunities for running businesses, without government knowing whether they are legally permitted to do so. These 15 million people form part of the international syndicates who are operating on South African shores.



South Africa’s borders are nonexistent and to make matters worse, the department’s only investigation have pointed out that up to 40% of all the visas that they have issued were issued fraudulently. This goes without saying that it points to a deepening immigration crisis and a failure by the Department of Home Affairs to implement its own immigration laws.



Minister, can you please, unpack your plans to solve South Africa’s immigration crisis and please, tell us how you will



go about ensuring that you identify, document or deport the 15 million undocumented persons. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon House Chairperson, I just want to remind the member that she has asked this question in the form of a written reply, and I have extensively replied to that question, which she will receive very soon.



Be that as it may, we have mentioned many times that we don’t know about these figures of illegal migrants in South Africa and where they come from, because there is no database anywhere that records illegal migrants. It is simply because we don’t know them. Nobody knows them. There is no system of knowing them.



The most correct figure, officially, that we use is from Statistics SA is about 3,5 million, not illegal people but migrants in South Africa. We feel safer to use that. We don’t really know about the 15 million.



We know that the issue of borders being nonexistent is true. Maybe, the member might say that the borders are porous. We have extensively mentioned in this Parliament what we are going to do. And last week, the Border Management Authority,



the newly established authority to deal with the borders, gave its extensive programme to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, which I cannot outline in two minutes.



Suffice to say, in July, you saw publically how we hired 200 border guards to try and help. In the report, we have already written what they have achieved at the borders in stopping stolen cars and all the other wrong things that are happening at the borders.



We want to announce to you again that, next year, when the financial year starts, we are going to hire 400 extra border guards, to try and bolster the ones we have. [Time expired.] Thank you.



Vote No 6 – International Relations and Cooperation – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote 7 - National School of Government – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 8 – National Treasury – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus,



African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Vote No 9 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 10 – Public Enterprises – put.



Declarations of Vote:


Mr G K Y CACHALIA: It is clear that our budget forecast is overstating economic growth by anything between 1,2 and 1,4% and the burgeoning debt burden is largely due to government’s continued bailing out of failed state-owned enterprises.

Bailouts are the order of the day. Instead of rolling out the red carpet to the private sector this government keeps bankrupt state companies alive at huge cost and poor production while the country itself goes bankrupt because this government spends more than it earns. Yes, you need growth to finance the economy but I ask you how do you have an economy without electricity.



Now Mr Gordhan has found some emergency diesel despite us having no strategic reserves refine fuels and he says he has



talked to the Finance Minister about where the money could be found. Don’t you just love this random fines to battle bankruptcy but the Finance Minister has been silent on the matter. So, the question is where is the money going to come from and even if found anyone with half a brain knows that South Africa is two to three years away from a massive debt crisis. Don’t take it from me. Take it from Claude Baissac, the Chief Executive Officer of Eunomix.



So, should the Minister not change his name to Oliver, like the Dickens character who said: “Please sir, I would like some more?’ - to which the answer was: “What! More! Hold him! Scold him! Flounce him! Pick him up and bounce him!” Less of course, the money comes from underneath some sofa.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, we have been told in the past that the State Security Agency is the one that is taking longer to process the vetting of senior managers in government and SOEs. Some of this people are employed for five years and finished their contracts without being vetted but deals with serious and sensitive matters of national security daily.



Yesterday, we learned at the Standing Committee on Public accounts, Scopa, that Eskom Chief Executive Officer Andre de



Ruyter and Chief Operating Officer Jan Oberholzer are refusing to submit documents to be vetted. They were given until the end of June or July to submit but they failed to do it. Today is 1 December nearly six months later and they are still refusing. How must we trust that they are dealing with the corruption at Eskom which they claim is their priority? We have the crisis of blackout when the most senior managers are refusing to be vetted. How are junior managers going to agree to be vetted when Andre de Ruyter is refusing to be vetted.

What is so special about him and the chief operating officer. Can the Minister Hassim tell us what is so special about Eskom senior managers. Thank you, Chair.



Mr S N GUMEDE: Chair, I will be on questions while we appreciate the additional funding provided to Denel and Transnet to return these SOEs to profitability in addition to the government Eskom debts take over to ensure the utility is financially sustainable. Alesco and SAA require government funding to diversify production and complete the business rescue process respectively and considering the importance of these. Firstly, when can we expect the government to make additional allocations to Alesco and SAA to address the highlighted outstanding matters? And secondly, will this additional allocation come with strict, fee and post



conditions as was the case with Denel. Thank you, Chair. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please don’t do that. Don’t switch on your mic when you are on virtual platform without being recognised. Don’t do that.



The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon, Chair. And good afternoon to hon members. As far as SAA is concern the outstanding amounts about meeting the requirements of the business rescue plan and the Treasury is looking at that matter.



Denel has got enough money now to get into its feet and begin to make money as it gets more orders. As far as the Eskom chief executive officer and chief operating officer is concern and vetting I will certainly enquire into that and make sure that there is compliance to that.



And then as far as with the half of brain is concern we have addressed the brains size issue before. However, everybody knows that there is a shortage of megawatt in our system. It has to be complemented in some way. And there is a clear



strategy. The one is to make sure that the plants were better that there is less corruption at these plants and destruction.



And on the other hand to supplement the capacity of the plants and megawatts and provide where usage of diesel on a rational basis in order to meet the requirements of the country.



By next year towards the end of the year, there would be enough megawatts around for us to ensure that we move out of the energy crisis. We are nowhere near a debt crisis in South Africa. So, I think the melodrama that hon Cachalia always like to present to you and to the country is just that melodrama. Thank you, Chairperson.



Division demanded.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration – put.



Division demanded.






Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 12 – Public Service Commission – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote 13 – Public Works and Infrastructure- put.



Declarations of vote:


Ms S J GRAHAM: House Chairperson, the adjustment process has seen R380 million transferred to the Department of Transport for their rural roads programme, specifically for the Welisizwe rural bridges project.



While originally a joint venture between the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and the Department of Defence, it is interesting that the Department of Transport is now the implementer.



However, if there is money to be taken from the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure vote we cannot argue against it being used to give poor, rural people safe access to schools, clinics and other services which have been so difficult for them to access in the past.



That being said, we are concerned about the apparent breakdown in relations between the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure and other government departments and the failure of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to adequately cater to the needs of their clients.



The Telkom towers precinct in Tshwane is almost four over time, senior SA Police Service, SAPS, officials are still unable to occupy their offices and SAPS are spending

R31 million on private leases.



The Department of Defence is in the process of taking back as many powers and functions as quickly as possible from the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure.



And Parliament has recently announced that they will be taking responsibility for the rebuild of Parliament to the tune of R2 billion in a stunning display of lack of confidence in the



ability of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to manage a project of this magnitude.



Minister De Lille, South Africa is becoming a country that works without public works. How can you win back the trust of your client departments in the ability of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to deliver on its mandate?

Thank you.



Mr W M THRING: Minister, it is said that gross capital formation investment in the economy should be in the region of about, in terms of government’s estimates, 30% of our Gross Domestic Product, GDP. But when one looks at the investment into both from the private sector as well as government, the investment falls well below that 30%.



Recent indicators show that investment in infrastructure are at critical levels, leaving many wanting to divest from South Africa because of the poor infrastructure.



So, Minister what is your plan? What is your department’s plan to ensure that infrastructure in South Africa keep s pace with the need for economic growth? Thank you.



Ms L N MJOBO: Minister, how will the department deal with the problem of understanding, which negatively impacts on the implementation of important programmes like Extended Public Works Programme, EPWP? Thank you, Chairperson.



The HOUESE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before the Minister responds, I saw a hand on the monitor. Is it the ... oh, it’s the same person. Okay.



You don’t have to raise your hand if you know that the party has registered. If you raise your hand it’s either through a point of order, so that we don’t get confused.



The hon Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure!





good afternoon to the members. To start with hon Thring, the 30% contribution of construction to GDP is contained in the National Development Plan, NDP. Out of that, the public sector is responsible for the contribution of 8% and the private sector for the rest.



The construction industry was also badly affected by covid but it is busy on the amend and I think next year we will see a much better improvement.



Just on the shifting of the funds of R388,91 million to the Department of Transport is a mechanism advised by National Treasury because the funding will also be going to the provinces; and there’s a way of shifting the money. But the project itself it is still be done by the Department of Defence, Department of Public Works and the Department of Transport and the local municipalities. So, there’s no change there, it was a mechanism by National Treasury to shift the R388 million for the bridges.



Also, no department in terms of the Constitution of this country can take powers away from the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure. Where they need powers to be devolved to them, it must be on a basis of a request, and where such a request has been received from the Department of Defence, Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, we have granted that, and also the Department of Correctional Services, but it can’t just be taken, it must be requested.



So, definitely, in terms of the Telkom building, as we know that the implementing agent there was Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, and we have put DPSA to terms including the two visits that was done by the portfolio committee and SAPS is in one of the buildings now. We are looking at putting the Minister and the senior staff temporarily into the Civitas building but that is still under discussion. And so [Time expired.] Thank you.



Vote No 13 agreed to (FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 14 - Statistics South Africa – put.



Agreed to (FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 15 – Traditional Affairs – put.



Agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 16 – Basic Education – put



Declarations of vote:



Ms Y N YAKO: Minister, early this year, as is the case every single year, there was a protest by taxi drivers in the Eastern Cape in relation to payments to learner transport.



Thousands of learners in that province, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and many other rural provinces struggle to get to school because of transportation, with many having to walk kilometres just to get to school.



How much money has been set aside or was set aside for school transportation this year and how much of it has been spent?



And what provisions have you made to ensure that at the beginning of 2023 school calendar there is no child who’s going to be crossing rivers just to get to school because of lack of transportation in this country? Thank you.



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Chair, the adjusted budget for basic education does not show a market difference from the original one.



The problem is that there is money used in the department which is, according to an answer from the Minister, derived



from the nations, some from overseas and some from domestic institutions.



Donated money is used to fund, amongst others, the programme for the inclusion of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, sex characteristics in education, according to a specific ideological framework. This is already implemented in the Early Childhood Development, ECD, phase. A project for which the Education, Training and Development Practices Sector Education and Training Authority, ETDP SETA, provided R20 million.



Are donations and the programmes on which of these are expanded, laid before Parliament and accounted for? Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, and I know that some funds are being allocated for particular infrastructure in schools. The Gardens Combined School in the Dannhauser area has pit latrines, no kitchen, they actually bucket going to the neighbours looking for water.



Equally, the Mossdale Primary School in the same area has no water, they have pit toilets, no fencing whatsoever, where they go with buckets looking for water from their neighbours.



The Mandlamasha Combined School has a library that is in a container.



Can you please tell us: What measures are put or will be put in place to address the challenges that these schools face?



Mandlamasha has over 1 060 learners, Minister. I think it’s time we dealt with the challenges some of these schools face and particularly the quintile system must be ... [Inaudible.]

... Thank you.



Ms N G ADOONS: Hon Chairperson, infrastructure development is a key imperative to improving the quality of education and addressing the infrastructure backlog in the sector and responding to disaster impacted infrastructure.



The department’s adjustment is significant in allocating funds for the Education Infrastructure Grant.



Minister, which provinces will receive this allocation? And how many schools will be supported by the adjusted funds?

Thank you very much.



Ms N G ADOONS: Thank you very much Chairperson. Infrastructure is a key imperative to improving the quality of education and addressing the infrastructure backlog in the sector and responding to the disaster impacted infrastructure. The department’s adjustment is significant in allocating funds for the education infrastructure grants.



Minister, which provinces will receive this allocation and how many schools will be supported by the adjusted funds? Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is she there, is she on the list? The hon Minister of basic education is not here; we will come back to her. Is there a Deputy? Even if I come back to her, let me make it clear, I will not be asking members to ask their questions again. I hope people are listening and will advise what was happening. Yes hon Papo?



Mr A H M PAPO: Chair please put it on record that the Deputy President in his capacity as leader of government business sent an official communication to all ministries who answer questions outlining the procedure required in the House.



There cannot be a situation that no one knows about this session. I am doing it so that no one asks me whether it was done.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We can see, even the letter is here. Thank you. Vote 16 will stand over answers.



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, my hand is up.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, your hand is up, I am sorry. Yes hon member?



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: It is fine Chair. Chair, I am worried, if we are going to pass like that while the Minister is expected to answer questions here. So what if other Ministers that also need to answer are not here?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I do not know how to respond to you. We will deal with that. I think I will get a response towards the end. Let us try and get towards the end see what is happening at the end MaMkhaliphi. We will deal with that there. The Deputy Minister of Basic Education has just registered; I hope that we will come back to you. We are



not there now. We are moving to Vote 17, Higher Education and Training.






Vote No 16 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 17 – Higher Education and Training – put



Declarations of Vote:


Ms J S MANANISO: Minister, the growth of higher education is an important priority to expand access to higher education, and training noting that the adjustment was done to fund students by just over R1,3 billion.



How will the department mitigate the shift of funds from the infrastructure allocation for the Sol Plaatjie University and the University of Mpumalanga and the allocation shifts from the university of education programme? Thank you Chair.





MANAMELA): The funds based on the question that hon member is asking about were shifted from areas with low spending and the impact of the shift was assessed before the recommendations



were made so most areas where funds were taken from have been allocated funds over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period therefore, there will not be any major impact on the service delivery. The slow spending is also attributed to various reasons and the department is working closely with institutions to address those reasons relating to slow spending.



In October we approved a reallocation of R1,6 billion in interest and by universities on previously allocated capital funds for infrastructure projects to alleviate budget pressures in areas affected by the shifting of funds to support students’ subsidies.



House Chair, I think it is also important to note that further shifting of funds from key university programmes to support student funding is not sustainable as institutions require the funds to proof and sustainable quality teaching and learning.



University subsidies must ensure the sustainability of universities that funded students will enter and the continued ability to provide quality teaching and learning for all students. Diverting core funding intended for the sustainability of growth and development of institutions



themselves to student funding will have to be addressed in order not to collapse the universities which we believe is already under strain. Thank you very much House Chair.






Vote No 17 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 18 – Health – put



Declarations of Vote:


Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you Chairperson. Minister, given that the Finance Minister has now explicitly stated in a reply to a parliamentary question that the National Treasury will not rush to fund the NHI, National Health Insurance, without factoring in its costs on the fiscus.



Together with the fact that Genesis Report found that the NHI pilot projects had mixed successes and that a conclusion of improved health in each district could not be drawn. Given that the NHI will be implemented in gradual stages to ensure it commences effectively.



Will the Minister take South Africa into his confidence and test further pilot projects prior to the implementation of NHI given the failure of the past projects which occurred long before Covid-19 and the looming recessions?



Will the Minister complete an up to date feasibility study to that South Africa cannot afford NHI and that the health system would collapse if NHI came into effect?



Minister, our public health system is on life support. In this current economic climate, government cannot be spending billions of rands on an NHI Bill as an election tool.

Government needs to ensure that we upgrade our current health sector to realise real universal care for South African citizens. Thank you.



Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you very much. The Minister when asked about the distinct funding model of the NHI is sadly unable to distinctly appraise the Portfolio Committee on Health on the precise model on various occasions to date.



On one occasion the Minister made an assertion that the NHI will see a reallocation of funds in the NDOH, National Department of Health, implying that this will be done in order



to accommodate in true essence the tendering of health care to the private sector.



Noting the compromise of our people in rural township areas who already struggle with accessing in the limited health care facilities as is, the referral system that is eminent to the NHI Bill and that there are no private facilities that will be of benefit to them in close proximity in the geographical areas, what does this reallocation entail and how will it affect public facilities in rural township areas that our people will still solely depend on even with the NHI implemented? Thank you.



Dr K L JACOBS: Minister, the department has experienced minimal adjustments to its appropriation of just over

R4 million on goods and services. Which goods and services were impacted by the adjustment in the NHI programme? Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH (Dr S M Dhlomo): Let me start by apologizing for the Minister who is at the World Aids Day event in the Free State and is unfortunately unable to be here today to answer these questions.



On the first part hon Clarke, this question comes up all the time. We indicated that the pilot sites were not put in place to check whether we should or should not continue with NHI. It was meant to give us a baseline of where we are in this ideal clinic hospital health system that we ideally want to have and it showed us.



I could actually tell because I was the MEC of a particular province then and there were nine districts in the country that did the NHI and two districts in the province that I led which were uMgungundlovu and uMzinyathi.



We created a baseline and now know which clinics should be adjusted to what level. For anybody to say yes indeed this is an ideal clinic, this a place I am happy to see and supporting me. We were anticipated that we are going to get a baseline.

We never expected to see all clinics being the best of the best. We understood that and that is why presidential held compact in guiding us and telling us where do we go.



On the other question regarding the funding, we are actually saying there will be proportional adjustments to fund and improve the infrastructure of those far flung rural clinics



and hospitals so that we do not disadvantage anyone because they happen to be in a rural facility or in rural space.



On the last question with regard to ... [Time Expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, your time is up. We have a global time of two minutes. Thank you very much Deputy Minister.



Let me acknowledge Deputy Minister of Education, we are aware that you are here and we will give you an opportunity after Vote 41. Thank you.



Vote No 19 – Social Development – put



Declarations of vote:


Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, as you are aware, we have high levels of gender-based violence. But more importantly, crime is dominating the latest statistics. My understanding is that we can only solve this problem by getting to the root causes through grassroots level. And we also know your departments are all working in silos.



What measures can you put in place to start at school level to identify children that are coming from dysfunctional families so that you can address them through social workers? Very importantly, to ensure that every child stays at school, must go to school and complete the ... [Inaudible.] ... Added to that is a very high number of social workers that are unemployed and the safety invested in school has been discontinued particularly in the Western Cape.



Can you put some measures in place to attend to this so that we address this from grassroots level and create a better generation and society in the future? Thank you.



Ms N Q MVANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the Department of Social Development was significantly impacted by the adjustment of its appropriations by R6 billion for social assistance. Why were these funds shifted and what is the impact of this adjustment for grant beneficiaries? Thank you, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, Chairperson and a very good afternoon to everyone in the room. Hon member from the NFP, yes, we do need to deal with the root cause of gender-based violence. And it starts with families.



It is for this reason that the Department of Social Development and my office as the Ministry has agreed that we need to put programmes in place from community to community.



It is important for us to appreciate that government alone cannot be able to resolve the problem because Minister Bheki Cele and entire police force cannot be going into houses and homes. It is the people who are in the home, who have to be able to report on time. See it when it’s happening. That’s why as a department are not only looking at the safety and security within the homes, we are looking at an education programme that can assist our communities, working together with non-profit organizations. Who by the way, we spent R8,2 billion per year funding them so that they can be able to assist us. And that will be answering the first question.



The second question from the ANC regarding the budget cuts. I think we have had conversations about this. The fact that the entire government ... We had to for three-years, our baseline could not be the same and monies had to be taken into other programmes. And I know the members have been raising the issue of some of the money being taken by defence to deal with the issues of Mozambique.



Here it is, every one of us needs peace, security and stability. And therefore, if our government needs to support and nip the problem where it starts, we need to be able to contribute. Of course, it’s not very pleasant for me as the Minister of Social Development when money is taken away from social development. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Tshabalala, please mute your mic.



Vote No 20 – Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 21 – Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 22 – Correctional Services – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 23 – Defence – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 24 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 25 –Justice and Constitutional Development – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 26 – Military Veterans – put and agreed to (DA, FF- Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 27 – Office of the Chief Justice – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 28 - Police – put



Declarations of vote:


Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I will make this declaration on behalf of hon Majozi. Minister, considering the continuous increase in cases of murder and sexual assault, as per the recently released crime statistics, how does the department intend to adequately investigate these crimes and provide prosecutorial support for victims whilst there is a reduced budget allocation for the forensic science laboratories subprogramme?



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Minister, one of the serious problems in terms of the crime in South Africa Inanda Police Station has been isolated as number one.



But the fact of the matter is that the satellite police station at Amawoti is contributing to the crime that is happening under Inanda Police Station. There is no proper infrastructure in terms of Amaoti Police Station and there was one person who donated a space as an office but it has not been open. Can you provide an update about the happenings at Amaoti Police Station? Taking into consideration that the community of Amawoti high crime volume since 1994?



Mr B M HADEBE: Thank you, Chairperson. On behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Police. Hon Bheki Cele ...





... uBheki omncane.





The 2022 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, indicates that there has been an underspending of over R30 million due to a number of reasons including delays in tender process. Hon Minister, how will you ensure that this matter of underspending is addressed?



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I will start at the tail end. The South African Police



underspent mostly on infrastructure programmes. And that infrastructure is not run by the South African Police Service, it is run by our sister department, the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure. If there is no rolling on that one we will underspend. There are two programmes where we mostly underspend, and the information technology, IT, which is run by State Information Technology Agency SOC Ltd, SITA, we spend a lot of time sitting down trying to find an answer on those two. We have a problem. As I am sitting here I don’t have an office and my office has been bought and fixed by billions but I cannot go and use it. I spoke to the Minister yesterday and said I work from home. I don’t have an office as a Minister of Police. That is an answer to the first question.



On the second one, the question related to gender-based violence and high murders, this time ten thousand women were raped in South Africa in three-months and 62% of them were raped in their own houses. Not at the parks but where they are supposed to be. So, the question that was asked to the Minister of Social Development was correct to say, it is a societal matter while we arrest and do all those things. While we arrest and do all those things, while there are more than seven thousand lifers for committing that kind of crime. But



it is not going to work if we don’t deal with families, if we don’t deal with society and all that.



But beyond, across the board of governance, what we call environmental design, people are raped in places where it is dark and where there are no street lights and all those kinds of things. And so, it is important that we work across the government.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.








USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Unemizuzu emibili lungu elihloniphekile Cele.






Nk H MKHALIPHI: Ngizoyithola kanjani eyami impendulo Sihlalo?



USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Imizuzu emibili isho ukuthi uma uphendula kufuneka ubone ukuthi uyifaka kanjani yonke imibuzo. Yebo.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. We are done and now moving to Vote No 29.



Vote No 29 - Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development – put



Declarations of vote:


Mr N P MASIPA: Thank you, House Chairperson. former homelands, such as Venda, Ciskei and Transkei had irrigation schemes and thriving farms that used to employ hundreds of thousands of South Africans. With the advent of democracy, South Africans had high hopes of seeing the agricultural economy improve. We had hopes of seeing land being surveyed, roads, infrastructure being improved, and irrigation schemes being expanded to create a lively rural economy for most South Africans living in this areas, these things did not happen. Instead, we went backwards.



Most land reform beneficiaries of plus farms, saw their dreams of a better future dying in their faces. Some were given farms with no post settlement support. The failure rate of these farms is a whopping 75%. As a result, rural towns are becoming ghost towns. The high failure rate is as a result of poor ANC- led government support. Worse, these farmers cannot use their



lease farms as collateral to raise capital. Nice poverty trap by the ANC-led government in order to blame the apartheid government.



The lack of formal and legally protected land rights has placed the citizens living in communal areas at extreme risk of poverty, unemployment, and dispossession. To address all these challenges, the Democratic Alliance is about to introduce the Land Justice Bill. The Bill’s clarion call is title deeds and private ownership for all who want it. Would the Minister support the Democratic Alliance in ensuring that the Bill is passed? If not, why not?



Ms T BREEDT: Thank you, Chairperson. Today, the Onderstepoort Biological Products, OPB, released a press statement regarding the lack of availability of certain vaccines. The bluetongue vaccine will apparently only be available in at least three weeks and others only at the end of January 2023. What is more worrying is the rumour that the hon Minister is not granting permission to other companies to produce these necessary vaccines in the meantime.



What are the facts regarding this? And if this is true, what are our farmers supposed to do in this coming rainy season?





DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson and good afternoon to all the colleagues as well hon members, and those members who have asked questions. Maybe if I were to answer the question by hon Masipa, which is whether the Minister would support the introduction of the Private Members Bills on Land Justice Bill? That is the matter of the legislature as he knows very well. So it’s not whether the Minister supports or not. It’s him and the legislatures who must persuade one another on this legislation.



However, I do agree that there is a need for farmer support on those who have been settled on land and those who are in communal areas. That is why last year, the Minister of Finance actually made an allocation for farmer support in order to address some of these concerns that hon Masipa is raising.



With respect to hon Breedt, the Minister doesn’t deal with the registration of vaccines. Actually, those are dealt with by the registrar. So, whatever rumour that she might have heard is misplaced. And, as you know very well that in any registration of a vaccine, you need to actually give scientific proof about the development of that vaccine, what elements are in that vaccine, whether they meet the



requirements and be able to have that registered process very clear. So, if there is anybody who says their registration of a vaccine has not been approved, needs to actually follow up with the registrar to understand what are the reasons.



OBP has been engaging other entities who actually do a production of the gluten vaccines for instance, to ensure that there is no gap in the market and farmers will be able to get the necessary vaccine at all times. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.



Vote No 30 - Communications and Digital Technologies – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 31 - Employment and Labour – put



Declarations of Vote:


Ms H DENNER: Thank you, house Chair. Minister, there is a rollover of R52 million for the Government Technical and Advisory Centre, to appoint an ecosystem manager. What does an ecosystem manager at the Government Technical and Advisory Centre do specifically to promote this department’s expanded mandate; and would this money not be better spent at the CCMA,



for instance, where budget cuts are hampering the good and necessary work they do?



Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, the issue UIF is continuing to be a challenge to the people who have just lost their employment. When people lost their employment, they go to labour centres, where the system is either down or there is no update at all. What is your plan to address this issue for the poorest of the poor people?



The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Thank you Chair and thank you to the members. We have indicated that we have a strategy of trying to turn around this entity – the UIF, including of course, the Compensation Fund. What was very clear was that we have to deal with the whole architecture of the UIF because we are running the medical insurance here. We are running the employment insurance for the people.

Therefore, we can’t run it along the lines of the department.



We are engaged in a process where we are trying to look at the whole structure, looking at the skills, the strategy and looking at the systems of that particular entity, in order to turn it around. However, remember it is in a deep hole, as I



have always said. It is not as easy as that. We are in a process that we would be able to announce a new structure.



This means the type of the personnel which you are going to have is not the personnel which we will have in the public service. We will have to go out and have the right personnel.



On the issue of the filling of some of the positions, an example has been made. We have never asked for the rollover of funds in so far as the filling of the vacancies. However, my concern has always been the returning of the unspent funds which were meant for the compensation of employees. These funds, as you have correctly pointed out, are meant to ensure that our people receive proper services... [Time expired.] Thank you.





Ndisakhumsha kakuhle!





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Kodwana nenze njalo, ukube nizama ukuphendula yoke imibuzo ebuziweko.



Vote No 31 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 32 – Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 33 – Human Settlements – put and agreed to (DA, FF- Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 34 –Mineral Resources and Energy – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 35 – Science and Innovation – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 36 – Small Business and Development – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 37 – Sport, Arts and Culture – put



Declarations of Vote:


Ms H DENNER: Thank you, house Chair. Hon Minister,


R15,4 million has been appropriated away from the Performing Arts Centre of the Free State, Pacofs, that was allocated for building and infrastructure upgrades. Now we know that Pacofs has been marred by corruption and malpractices at the entity, which was exposed during forensic investigations.



Has this allocation been reappropriated because the department does not trust the entity with such amounts of taxpayers’ money; if not, why then; and what is the plan then for necessary infrastructure upgrades that has to happen at Pacofs? Thank you.



Ms R C ADAMS: Thank you Chairperson. The Department of Sport, Arts and Culture has multiplied adjustments in its appropriation for the Recreation development and Sport Promotion program and the Arts and Culture Promotion and Development program, to support the Presidential Employment Initiative.



How will the department ensure impact programs support beneficiaries who would have been supported by the Mzansi Golden Economy and the Creative Industries Intervention projects, which were significantly impacted?



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, Chair. The member would know that Pacofs has been struggling over years, to a level where it was getting disclaimers because of the point she is raising. Today, the Pacofs consecutively has been getting unqualified audits, which means



that the problems of the past, that the member is talking to, have been dealt with going forward.



To the ANC, the ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no! This cannot be happening! Hon Minister and Deputy Minister, please! Sorry to you, hon Mthethwa. [Interjections.]



The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much Chair. The Presidential Employment Stimulus Programme, Pesp, as the hon member would know, has been more of an intervention occasioned by Covid-19 pandemic; whilst other programs of government of assisting artists continue, like Mzansi Golden Economy. So it is possible that a person will benefit from the intervention or companies or organisations of Pesp, but also benefit from what the government has to offer. Thank you



Vote No 37 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 38 – Tourism – put and agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 39 - Trade, Industry and Competition – put



Declarations of Vote:


Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. My question to the hon Minister would be: Is the Minister convinced that the department will still be able to contribute towards a sustainable economic growth, considering the reduced budget amidst the detrimental legacy of state capture, corruption and Covid-19 measures?



Mr W M THRING: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, on behalf of the ACDP, I have repeatedly drawn focus to the policy of beneficiation, which essentially is the transformation of a mineral or combination of minerals into a higher value product, which can be either be consumed locally or exported. Now, through the policy or through the process of beneficiation, the extracted Mineral South Africa and the extracted minerals, South Africa can increase its potential for economic growth. Development and job creation can also serve as a driver for empowerment of historically disadvantaged South Africans and enable the development new entrepreneurs in the downstream, side stream and upstream industries.



So, Minister, I say all of this because you know that I have raised this repeatedly within our committees, but: What



percentage of our exported minerals is actually beneficiated; and what plan does your department have to ramp this up, ensuring that we do not fall into the category of a consumerist nation?





very much, hon House Chair and thank you for the two questions. On hon Mulder’s question from the FF-Plus, indeed I will need to use our resources better, more efficiently and more impact is going to be even more important in the new financial year, given the fiscal constraints.



However, what we are doing is that we are also trying to leverage more through partnerships with the private sector. For example, in competition areas, we are getting companies to set up funds that are promoting transformation, supporting industrialisation and job creation. In our equity-equivalent programs, we are doing similar things. With trade reform, we are saying to companies that are in fact asking for tariff support, that they have got to demonstrate that they are putting more money into building the productive capacity of their sectors.



In many of the competition areas, we are also promoting greater worker ownership. So, not all of the challenges that we face need to be resolved only through fiscal transfers. Of course, we would like more money, and if Parliament was to agree, that would always be great. However, we are doing a lot more now with the limited resources we have.



On the question raised by hon Thring, from the ACDP: Indeed, hon Thring, you have set out so clearly the arguments in favour of beneficiation. So, what we are doing with certain value chains is that we are now ensuring that we get greater local value add. Let me take the example of platinum. South Africa is the world’s biggest resources of platinum. We can export it in one of two forms: We could either export it as raw platinum or palladium – we still do quite a bit of that; or we can use that in the South African automobile sector, to export finished cars.



If we look at the trade between South Africa and the European Union or the United Kingdom, as an example, you see an increasing export of finished products. That is an excellent example of beneficiation. [Time expired.] Thank you very much



Vote 39 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 40 – Transport – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 41 – Water and Sanitation – put.



Declarations of Vote:


Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, through you to hon Minister, throughout the country a common problem is water infrastructure challenges, maintenance hardly visible, dysfunctional water entities, lack of water tankers where they are required to deliver water, sanitation plants dysfunctional, and example is in eThekwini where the beaches are unusable, I won’t use the word the other day. Given above reality, hon Minister, how does your department intend to provide these basic function with the reduction in the budget allocation? Will these functions be compromised bringing upon additional hardship on our citizens, and the second part of this, hon Minister, is ... [Inaudible.] ... all of these.



A water entity, Umgeni Water, reportedly spent millions of rand to relaunch a water project in Ward 99, eThekwini, that is already being implemented. However, the strange thing is that in this very area there’s a by-election on 14 December.



So, was this relaunched which consisted of buzz and artists just a by-election ploy? Could you kindly give us answers, I know that we’ve sent in a written question to the latter part of my declaration, but perhaps you could answer us here. Thank you, hon Minister.





Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe unengxaki enkulu laphaya, sibonile ukuthi uyangenelela komasipala abanye njengaseZululand mayelana namanzi kodwa ke eThekwini kunenkinga enkulu yamanzi.





What is your plan to intervene eThekwini? I’m talking about Ward 60 whereby community of ...





... Mhlasini iyaye ihlale ingabi namanzi ...





... for two weeks, and the Municipality of eThekwini knows about this problem, but it seems as if that department of ... [Interjections.] ... municipality is also not helpful at all. So, what is the intervention from your department in order for



it to receive the basic needs such as water? Thank you, House Chairperson.



Ms M L PIETERSEN: House Chair, through you to the Minister, the portfolio committee has repeatedly expressed concern about the Department of Water and Sanitation’s underspending. The adjustment appropriations ... [Inaudible.] ... funds to respond to the disaster and the Vaal River pollution remediation projects. What is the progress of implementation for the two projects, and how will the department ensure that the projects are implemented timelessly and avoid underspending? Thank you, House Chair.



The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much, hon House Chair and to the hon members of the House. The issue here is water and sanitation infrastructure in municipalities generally and including eThekwini from the two hon members.

Firstly, I want to report for everybody is understanding that since we got appointed to the Department of Water and Sanitation we sought and have a proceeded in this fashion of repositioning the department such that they’re able to deal with the whole value chain as opposed to dealing with just bulk water which was the practice before we came, and deal with the water boards, and so on. However, it was just to deal



with water at high-level, mainly focusing on water resource management. We then every forecast department to water services management as well.



What is that meant? It is meant that to an extent water down legislation that separated municipalities as distinct Water Service Authorities such that the department wouldn’t enter that space even where they would be problems like hon members are indicating here. Now, we have done that successfully repositioning. What is the result? I’m then answering the question. Tomorrow we are engaging eThekwini Municipality. I mean the reason for this was our observation that by and large local government is deteriorated or declined throughout the country in terms of their capacity and their ability to render services including water and sanitation. [Time expired.]



Division demanded.



The House divided.



Ayes – 207: (ANC – 200; IFP – 6; Good – 1).



Noes – 112: (DA - 69; EFF - 30; FF Plus - 8; ACDP – 4; UDM – 1).



Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Point of order, is there no question to me, please?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You went outside.



The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I’ve been sitting here, honouring the Parliament.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The Minister of Transport, when I wanted you to respond, you left the House. No, I’m lying, hon Minister, there was no question for you. Thank you.



Mr N MYBURG: Minister! House Chairperson!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, okay, we want to go back now. Order, hon members! We want to go back







... aowa, ga ke sa kwa bjale ...





... to Vote 16, Basic Education. Deputy Minister Mhaule, did you get the questions? Okay, you may respond now. You have two minutes.



Vote 16 – Basic Education – put again



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Two minutes, but there four and sub-questions. However, thank you very much, I have never left the meeting, I have always been in the meeting. There are questions about infrastructure backlog and adjustment. The adjustment we only focus on two provinces. We addressed the storm damage in Kwazulu-Natal and Eastern Cape. Therefore, the number of schools in KwaZulu-Natal that we have budgeted for is 356 schools at R269 million. Eastern Cape is 26 schools at R14 million with the adjustment budget of the infrastructure grant.



Then there was a question about a school ... [Inaudible.] ... with 1 200 learners and container library and that other school in the same area have pit latrines. On the pit latrines we are addressing pit latrines on safe which is what we are



reporting all the time in Parliament, but in other instances provinces through education infrastructure grant, IEG, they do. However, in this particular case, House Chair, I want to promise that we are going to investigate as to what is the situation there.



So, the question about comprehensive sexuality education donors, yes, is a fact, we do receive donors from United Nations, UN, agencies. However, because is not a matter that is in the annual performance plan, APP, we include that in the annual report. When we present an annual report, we indicate everything that came through all donors even those that might be coming from the province.



On scholar transport, at the Department of Basic Education we don’t have budget for scholar transport. It is in the provinces, but I know that provinces are working with the Department of Transport. Yes, there are other learners that are deserving, but they are not transported due to various reasons which I may give in writing if members would want that. There are many different reasons why some learners are not transported. Thank you, House Chair.






Vote No 1 - The Presidency – put.



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance - put.



Agreed to.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I wish to inform you that in all subsequent divisions the bells will only be rung for 15 seconds.



Vote No 4 – Government Communication and Information System – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 5 – Home affairs – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-operation – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).



Vote No 9 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 10 – Public Enterprises – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 12 – Public Service Commission – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 13 – Public Works and Infrastructure – put and agreed to.



(Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 14 – Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.



(Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 15 – Traditional Affairs – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 16 – Basic Education – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 17 – Higher Education and Training – put and agreed to.



(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 18 – Health – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 19 – Social Development – put.



Division demanded.



House divided for 15 seconds.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we still have the requisite forum and the decisions pertaining to voting Vote 19 – Social Development to be agreed to.









Vote 19 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 20 – Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities – put.



Division demanded.



House divided for 15 seconds.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we do have the requisite quorum present and we are considering Vote

20 – Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities to be agreed to.









Vote 20 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 21 – Civilian Secretariat for the Police Service – put.



Vote 21 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 22 – Correctional Services – put.



Vote 22 agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 23 – Defence – put.



Division demanded.



House divided for 15 seconds.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we still have the requisite forum and the decisions pertaining to voting Vote No 23 – Defence to be agreed to.









Vote No 23 – Defence agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 24 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.



Vote 24 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate agreed to (DA, EFF, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 25 – Justice and Constitutional Development - put



No 25 – Justice and Constitutional Development agreed to (DA, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 26 – Military Veterans – put.



Vote No 26 – Military Veterans agreed to (DA, EFF, FF-Plus, ACDP and UDM dissenting).



Vote No 27 – Office of the Chief Justice – put.



Vote No 27 – Office of the Chief Justice agreed to (DA, FF- Plus, FF-Plus and ACDP dissenting).



Vote No 28 – Police – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, just before I declare the results of the division, hon Chief Whip, we understand the numbers of the ANC on the virtual platform is different to the one you gave. In fact, there are more members on the virtual platform. Yeah, but what is the number then?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The number that I have is 179 on the virtual platform and 16 here. So, what is happening is that the numbers on virtual platform are fluctuating because of connectivity.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): We have 184 online for the ANC and we will record that as the correct number.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Okay. That’s a good one.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It is 184 online and the 16 in the House. That gives you 200 members.



Vote No 29 – Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 30 – Communications and Digital Technologies – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 31 – Employment and Labour – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to



Vote No 32 – Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 33 – Human Settlements – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 34 – Mineral Resources and Energy – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Vote No 35 – Science and Technology – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 36 – Small Business Development – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 37 – Sport, Arts and Culture – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 39 – Trade, Industry and Competition – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 40 – Transport – put



Agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).



Vote No 41 – Water and Sanitation – put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Vote accordingly agreed to.



Schedule - put.



Division demanded.



The House divided.









Question agreed to.



Schedule accordingly agreed to.







(Second Reading)



There was no debate.



Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.



Question agreed to.



Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).







The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party and all members in the House, we are here today to debate on this budget ... on this programme of — Sorry, we’ve just come from budgets — World Aids Day. There is a theme which says we must end inequalities ... to actually come to an end in terms of



HIV and Aids. We have learnt this coming from a background of COVID.





Siyibonile ukuthi i-COVID abantu abakade bethola ukusizwa yilaba abanemali eningi abaphuma emazweni anemali eningi. Bese kuthi labo abaxakeke kakhulu emazweni anjengawethu babekwe le emsileni bangakwazi ukuthi bathole izidingo. Njengamanje umhlahlandlela we-Global Aids Strategy uthi asehlise izinombolo zabantu abathi zonke izinsuku bavuke banesifo seHIV and AIDS. Asehlise abantu abashonayo singekho isidingo ngoba isikhona nemishanguzo. Asehlise abantwana abavuka benegciwane le-HIV.



Kunohlelo ke oluphakanyiswe iJoint United Nations (UNAIDS) ethi 95, 95, 95 ethi ekhulwini abantu abayi-95 makube bayazi ukuthi bahlolile banegciwane u-95 wabo ekhulwini kube sebephatha imishanguzo. Laba abathatha imishanguzo kube sebekwazile ukulawula igciwane emizimbeni yabo. La eNingizimu Afrika sisengxakini yokuthi sisami ku-94, 76, 92 bese zehla kakhulu izibalo uma usuqhathanisa nabantu besilisa bona bathi 94, 69, 93. Kusho ukuthi ngempela ngempela ukuze silwe nale nkinga esibhekene nayo kufuneka sikhuthaze obaba, abantu besilisa baye emakliniki bayohlolwa. Kuthi uma sebehlolile



bayithathe imishanguzo bayidle. Iyasilekelela kakhulu leyo nto. Yile yo esizobheka nqo kakhulu labo abathintekile bayidle imishanguzo baze baqhubeke nayo. Noma le nto iveza nezinye izifo ezikhona emhlabeni o-TB, o-hypertension, abantu abazihlole bazazi izifo abanazo ukuze basilekelele kakhulu kuloko.



Sifisa ukuthi sivuselele nalabo ebekade bethi bayayidla imithi baphinde bayiyeke. Manje into ekhona lapha eNingizimu Afrika sifuna ukuthi sikhuphule izibalo zabantu ezingaphezulu kohhafu wesigidi ukuthi bahambe bayothatha imishanguzo yabo omama nobaba ukuze lezibalo esikhuluma ngazo ezifika ku 95, 95, 95 kuphinde kwenzeke.



INingizimu Afrika inabantu abayizigidi eziyi-7,9 abathi babe negciwane lengculazi, kulabo bawu-5,7 abayidlayo imishanguzo nsukuzonke. Siyakubonga ke lokho kodwa kusho ukuthi kusenezigidi ezimbili zabantu bethu abangakafinyeleli ukuthi bathathe amaphilisi. Kakhulukazi ingcindezi esinayo nokungena kwe-HIV iyaye ibe ezingane ezincane, amantombazane asakhulayo, abesifazane abasebasha, nabo abayithola abanye becindezelwa yilento esinayo okuthiwa ngo-sugar daddy no-sugar mom.

Izosihlupha leyo nto ngoba uma ngikwenza lokho enganeni eneminyaka eyi-15 sengiguge ngingaka, angicabange ukuthi



kukhona ongangami okwenza enganeni yami. Yini pho ngingamane ngikuyeke uma kanti eyami ingane ngifuna ivikeleke kodwa eya lobaba engihlangana nayo eneminyaka eyi-15 ngithi angiyithathe ngiyisebenzise ngocansi. Yinto engalungi kakhulu leyo.



Futhi ke iyasisiza leyo nto kodwa siwuMnyango wezeMpilo siyabheka ukuthi mhlawumbe yithina esibanga ukuthi abantwana bangasondeli ukuzocela izidingo ngoba ... nathi siyabagxeka. Sithi uthini? Uneminyaka eyi-17 uzofuna imishanguzo, uzofuna ukuthi uthole amakhondomu, hamba uyobiza umkhokheli. Hamba uyobiza umfundisi wakho. Obani phakathi kwethu abathi uma beqala ukuba nabangani babo okwathi bephuma ngewindi ekhaya bayotshela umkhokheli? Ngoba kwamane kwazenzekela, ngakho ke asingabangi izinto izinkinga enganeni sithi ke ukuze ngiqale ngikunikeze imishanguzo ngicela uhambe uyobiza umkhokheli wakho usho ukuthi wena usunabangani besilisa.



Kodwa asikubalule ukuthi sisebenze ngokuzikhandla, uMnyango WeZempilo usebenze kakhulu sathola le nto okuthiwa yi-PMTC. Le nto yokuthi omama abakhulelwe sibacele basheshe beze emakliniki uma bekhulelwe isisize kakhulu ngoba kuthi noma benegciwane lengculazi kodwa uma befike ngesikhathi banikezwa imishanguzo bese bekwazi ukubeletha abantwana abanganalo igciwane. Ngomunye unyaka we-2017 lapha eNingizimu Afrika



bekunomama abathola izingane ezinegciwane lengculazi ukufinyelela kumaphesenti ayi-20 zehlile lezo zibalo ngokungenelela ukuthi kwenziwe lohlelo lwePMTC. Kepha asibonge ukuthi yiNingizimu Afrika eyathatha iqhaza lokuthi ngeke sithembele kudokotela kuphela ukunikeza imishanguzo. Kwaqala kwakhishwa amaphilisi nasemakliniki. Kwaqeqeshwa onesi benze imisebenzi enjengale yokukhipha amaphilisi njengodokotela.kusisize kakhulu lokho sifuna ukukuqhubezela siyephambili.



Kukhona izinhlelo esinazo la eNingizimu Afrika okuthiwa u- MomConnect. Ngifisa ukuthi uMomConnect simqaphele akeve esisiza. uMomConnect ukuthi umama uma eya ekliniki afike khona athole imilayezo yokuthi: Siyabonga ubufikile uphinde ubuye ngenyanga ezayo, bakuphathe kanjani. Manje ke ngifisa ukuthi ayizwe uWessels ngoba uwusebenze kakhulu uMnyago weZempilo.





Moeders wat primêre sorg fasiliteite besoek, kan boodskappe rondom hulle besoek ontvang en voorbehoedsorg in die taal van hul ... [Onhoorbaar.]





So you casually choose ...





... ukuthi uzoyithola imilayezo ngolwimi lwakho.





... the language ... [Inaudible.] ... that is very friendly to our mothers. We want to continue to say ...





 ... abayibambe le nto yokuthi basitshele ukuthi baphatheke kanjani emakliniki ngoba lokho kuyasilekelela singuMnyango weZempilo kakhulu.





From the Saving Mothers Report of 2017-19, there has been a huge decline in maternal mortalities to almost 100 000 ... of

88 per 100 000 of births ... [Interjections.] ... due to hypertension, controlled ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, may I just request the NA Table Staff to disconnect that member who is on the platform. You may continue, hon Deputy Minister.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: We want to say that the SA National AIDS Council, Sanac, has released a draft document of the National Strategic Plan for HIV, tuberculosis, TB, and sexually transmitted infections, STIs, 2023-28 for public comment. This plan is actually very important ... that we actually take it up and it has actually been a world consulted plan with civil servants, government and the private sector.

This plan will actually focus on new lessons and things that we need to do going forward in terms of HIV, TB and other processes. We want to continue to say, let’s support ...





... abantwana bethu ngezinhlelo ezifana ...





... human ... [Inaudible.] ... virus plans because those ones are having a very huge impact.





siyawacela ukuthi awaqhubeke wonke akwazi ukuthi asilekele ngoba into ezosisiza ukuthi sehlise izibalo imishanguzo isikhona. Akwehliswe into ezothi abantwana abancane bangakwazi ukufika emakliniki bazosizwa. Bekungabaluleka Sihlao ukuthi ngiqede ngalo luhlelo.





There was a very irresponsible statement in the week that was made by one of the DA members with regard to the fecal contamination of the beaches in Durban. I took it upon myself, because I’m a resident of eThekwini, to speak to the mayor of that city and also to the MEC for Economic Development in that province. Now ...





... le nto le abayishoyo amampunge. Into yokuthi amabhishi aseThekwini anendle engahlanziwe akulona iqiniso. Nginombiko lapha uma benginesikhathi bengizonifundela wona. Lo mbiko othi kancane kancane ayahlanzwa futhi sekusele amabili kuphela ukuthi ahlanzeke. Uma abantu bezosukuma la ...





... discourage the citizens of the world ... of the country to visit eThekwini ...





... ngoba besho into engalungile. Abayiyeke leyo nto.





We want to actually say ...





... abahambe bathole ...





... actually statistics of these issues because we now know







... ukuthi inawo umthelela indaba yokukhuluma into okungeyona







... in terms of actually accessing. However, as we close, we want to say ...





... lo msebenzi esinikezwe wona wokuthi sinikeze abantu ...





... antiretrovirals, ARVs, will continue under the leadership of Minister Phaahla. We also want to encourage young South Africans to come to our facilities so that we can reduce the spread of HIV ...





... ngokuthi bonke sikwazi ukufinyelela kubo sibanikeze ...





... without judging them. We have now been doing that. Out of


3 000 health facilities in the country, 1 560 have already got what we call user-friendly services where you’ll find a nurse who will say ...










... good enough. We congratulate you for having come to the clinic, young as you are ...





... nalu uhlelo lwento esiyifunayo.





So we want to stop discouraging young people from accessing our facilities because that is the only way we can say that those who are high risk ... targeted by HIV ... we will be able to reduce the spread if we actually focus on them.





Siyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo.



Ms E R WILSON: HIV/Aids, the story of an unscrupulous serial killer, it cares not for gender or for your history, it cares little for age but appears to target women between the ages of

15 and 49. It often attacks the elderly and even the unborn.


It is treacherous, exceptionally cruel, and does a lot of harm over an alarming period of time. It likes to debilitate slowly. You can’t see this killer. It gives no warning of its approach, and whilst its victims comes from all walks of life, it appears to love the poor and the vulnerable.



It attacked over three million people in South Africa in 2002, and has actively become more active. By 2021, it had made over eight million South Africans its victim. At an increase of more than 200 000 new victims each year, it does not work alone, it has accomplices all over the world, but it is happiest in Africa, especially in South Africa where 83 000 people died to Aids related symptoms in 2020.



This killer by itself can be shackled, harnessed and controlled, but it appears we cannot manage this in South Africa. We have simply been unable to lock it down. It clapped



hands in glee when COVID—19 made our shores. Lockdown was the perfect opportunity to sink its claws in, and bring down millions of people. It celebrated decisions, often bad ones to insist that people stay home. It danced as people got hungrier, weaker and more desperate. It sang as people were unable to move, unable to access medication and it toasted when its victims were unable to fight back and drew their last breath.



The advent of COVID-19 over the world played into its hands. With the rapidly declining health sector in South Africa, this government was totally unprepared for the damage that was to be done. With the world in a state of chaos, medicines were unavailable for long periods of time, including those to hold this killer in check.



The rest of the world had its own challenges to deal with, and South Africa and its poor people were not its priority. Had this HIV/Aids maniac been a person, it would have surely popped Champaign quartz, when ... [Inaudible.] ... also a maniac, attacked Ukraine, another global crisis of mammoth proportions where South Africa paid dearly as the cost of food, transport and sustaining debt resulted in the highest



inflation in South Africa in 13 years. The situation does little to hold this killer in check.



The continual collapse of the public health system is a reality and played into its hands. Desperation, sex trade and trafficking has become a serious issue. To sell one’s body and even one’s children to prevent starvation has become a norm.

Combined with the horrific crime statistics, especially rape and gender-based violence, and this government’s incompetence and total inability to manage them. The bleeding borders and poor immigration policies, the ground is all the more fertile for a killer on the loose.



So, what about global solidarity and shared responsibility? While we stand in solidarity with all the world and understand that HIV/Aids is world-wide pandemic, much of the irresponsibility of the ongoing growth of HIV in South Africa is on the doorstep of this government. Instead of making the poor and the vulnerable its priority number one in this country, preference has been given to the elite few, cadre deployment, and resulting in mismanagement of all sectors across the board, especially health and basic services. This has never been more evident than now.



Is there hope? Of course, hope is in the hands of the people of South Africa who must now consider voting for a party that cares for all South Africans whether they are in Langa, Khayelitsha, Gugulethu or Giyani. A party with policies to improve economic crisis, create job opportunities, prevent crime, and improve the collapsing health sector. A party that opposes cadre deployment and a party that is prepare for this

... [Inaudible.] ... crisis. This is the party that will bring


... [Time expired.] ... in the DA. I thank you.



Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Chairperson, this country, more than any other in the world has come face to face with devastation caused by HIV and Aids. All of us hear have lost parents, siblings, relatives and friends to this deadly disease. Homes have been ripped apart. Young children have been left to fend for themselves in this cruel place we call earth. We all know the social and economic cost of the virus to the families and the country as a whole.



As the EFF, we would like to take this opportunity to remember all those who have succumbed to the virus across ages. May their souls rest in peace and may their families find comfort. We would also like to pay tribute to the thousands of activists who put their lives on the line advocating for



access to HIV and Aids treatment. We remember fallen activists such as Prudence Mabele, who during the height of HIV and Aids denialism, stood shoulder to shoulder with those whose lives were destroyed by the virus. It is people like the late Prudence Mabele who gave hope to many activists and families. It is through the work that she and many others did that the government was forced to make treatment available to the people. Today, antiretroviral treatment is available to all those infected by HIV, prolonging lives and making it possible for HIV positive people to lead normal lives.



Despite this advances, the past few years have seen a dramatic reversal of the gains made in the fight against the virus.

There is a dramatic increase in the number of new infections, not only in this country but across the world. This is concerning because we know a consistent intake of antiretrovirals, ARVs, reduces chances of transmission. The fact that there is an increase in infections means that a larger number of people are not taking their treatment or they are defaulting.



In our country, almost eight million people are living with HIV, and this is about 13% of the population. In a country as defined by socioeconomic inequalities, as South Africa is, and



considering the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on jobs and livelihoods, it should not take anyone by surprise that the majority of our people who are without jobs and food will have challenges taking ARVs. Proper HIV treatment also require access to food, which many of our people are struggling with.



The fight against HIV/Aids will not be won until the country tackles social and economic inequality. We will also continue losing loved ones if there is no concerted effort to improve the public health system in the country because over 80% of our people depend on public health. There were incidents at the height of the pandemic when many clinics did not have HIV treatment leading to many people defaulting, making them even more vulnerable to opportunistic diseases.



Lastly, the government, civil society, and political parties have taken their feet off the pedal in as far as HIV education is concerned. We must continue preaching about the importance of consistent condom use. The need to be faithful to one sexual partner and the importance of testing so that people know their status.



May the souls of those who have passed on find eternal peace. May those living with HIV find hope and strength. May we all



do our part to ensure that we rid our society of this deadly disease. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, we join the world to commemorate World Aids Day yet for us as a country it is a particular important day. We remember the many that have lost their lives to the disease and those that have left behind their mothers, partners and children. This important awareness day remains a time to reset our world-wide response to HIV and Aids. While honouring those who lost their lives to Aids- related illnesses, we renew our commitment to support the wellbeing of those living with HIV and those at a risk of infection.



This year’s theme, Global solidarity, shared responsibility, speaks to the matter of all of us as citizens in tackling HIV and Aids. We need to encourage everyone to get tested. Getting tested not only gives you peace of mind, but also protects the lives of your loved ones as well. There have been many scientific advances in its treatment and especially with the new injection, the pre-exposure prophylaxis, PrEP, treatment which allows women to take control of their destiny and protect themselves from possible infections.



House Chairperson ...





. ... kunombuzo ongaphenduleki lapha eMnyagweni Wezempilo.





In KwaZulu-Natal there are about 85 people who were sterilised without knowing what the doctors were doing to them. Not knowing their status and ...





... njengamanje bazinyumba, abazali abasanakwe muntu ngoba bavalwa inzalo. Baphumele obala kwi-Summit batshela ngisho uMongameli ukuthi nampa bona sebezihlelile bangatholakala bawumthamo oyi-85. Lokhu kwenzakale eKZN. Ngicela le Ndlu ingiphe indlebe nalaba bantu ibaphe indlebe izwe ukukhala kwabo ukuthi njengamanje odokotela bayazenzela emizimbeni yabantu bengabatsheli ukuthi kwenziwani.





The IFP joined the Treatment Action Campaign in its constitutional court battle to force the national government to roll-out the antiretroviral in order to save lives. We need to destigmatise HIV and Aids infection for people living with



the disease. Shame only leads to people losing their lives instead of seeking treatment. I thank you.



Mr P VAN STADEN: Chairperson, the first cases of Aids were reported in the United States in June 1981. The first case of HIV infection in South Africa was reported in 1982, and this was the start of the first wave of the HIV epidemic. In the following year, Aids was diagnosed for the first time in two patients in South Africa. The first recorded Aids-related death occurred in the same year. The first epidemic of HIV/Aids in Africa is believed to have occurred in Kinshasa in the 1970s.



This epidemic today is a world-wide problem that needs some serious attention especially here in South Africa. Denialism about the epidemic is a serious matter of great concern. Here at home the denialism by the ANC government on this serious matter cannot be ignored. This denialism had a significant impact on public health policies from 1999 to 2008 during the presidency of Thabo Mbeki. It was during this time that the former president criticised the scientific consensus that HIV is the cause of Aids shortly after his election as President. It was during his eight years as president that he and the



government were in denial and instituted policies denying antiretroviral, ARV, drugs to Aids patients.



The former President also described drugs that could have prevented the spreading of this disease from mother to child and drugs that help keep newborns from contracting HIV as poison. Thereafter Mr Mbeki appointed Manto Tshabalala-Msimang as the Minister of Health. Minister Msimang was also in denial and promoted the use of herbal remedies that were unproven.

She said that garlic, beetroot and lemon juice could be used in the treatment of Aids. Research and statistics show that during the time of former President Mbeki, 343 000 to 365 000 people died from this epidemic. It was reported that there were about 900 deaths per day.



Then another denial came from the ANC and this government from former President Jacob Zuma. It was in 2006 after he was fired as the Deputy President by former President Mbeki when he was charged for raping an HIV positive woman and cross-examined in court. Mr Zuma stated that he had showered rather than worn a condom to ward off the risk of HIV after he had unprotected sex with the woman. It was during this time when the HIV pandemic was at its peak and contributed to almost 40% of the deaths in South Africa.





Die huidige verslag van Statistieke SA wat vroeër in die jaar uitgereik is, dui aan dat daar nog geen entstof teen MIV gevind of vervaardig is nie. Die verslag dui ook aan dat hierdie epidemie die gevolg van die babasterfte krisis was.



Indien die vorige Presidente, asook ’n voormalige Minister van Gesondheid en die ANC regering destyds nie in ’n staat van ontkenning verkeer het nie kon hierdie huidige krisis beter hanteer en bestuur gewees het en sou dit waarskynlik nie tot die huidige stand van sake gelei het nie. Hierdie staat van ontkenning waarin die ANC en sy leiers destyds verkeer het, het tot gevolg gehad dat die krisis vandag in 2022 nog verder uitgekring het.



Vandag is 13,9% van ons bevolking MIV-positief. ’n Kwart van ons land se vrouens tussen 15 en 49 jaar-oud is positief.

Gedurende 2002 was 3,68 miljoen mense positief. In 2011 het hierdie syfer na 5,59 miljoen gegroei en vandag staan dit op ’n skrikwekkende 8,45 miljoen mense.



Met die uitbrei van COVID in 2020 en hierdie regering se onvermoë om die COVID pandemie effektief te bestuur, asook die regering se ontwrigting van die publiek se toegang tot



voldoende mediese sorg gedurende die tydperk, was die gevolge uiters nadelig vir die gesondheid en welstand van alle MIV- positiewe mense van ons bevolking.



Dit is duidelik dat hierdie regering gefaal het om voldoende gesondheidsorg aan Suid-Afrikaners te lewer en dat hulle sinnelose COVID regulasies bygedra het tot die verdere verspreiding v siektes op grootskaal onder ons landsburgers.



Die feit dat staat en provinsiale hospitale nie dienste gelewer het in die behandeling van MIV, tuberkulose, TB, kanker en ander siektes in hierdie tydperk nie, dien as ’n bewys van die voortgesette staat van ontkenning van die ANC regering oor hierdie siektetoestande en dat hierdie regering nie in staat is om na ons landsburgers om te sien nie. In 2022 het ’n skokkende 85 000 mense in Suid-Afrika reeds van MIV/Vigs gesterf.





South Africa currently has the largest HIV epidemic in the world. This is due to the denialism of this government’s previous and current leaders about this serious matter. [Time expired.] Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms M E SUKERS: Hon Chair, the Eastern and Southern Africa is home to over 60% of children living with HIV/Aids. We have come from a very long way from the dark days when an HIV positive diagnosis was an automatic death sentence. The progress in raising awareness, prevention of infection and disease management is due to the heroic efforts of committed professionals, health care workers and researchers who serve South Africa and the world with distinction in their field to combat the progression of what was and still is a dreaded disease. We today reach the place where HIV/Aids can be seen as a chronic disease requiring management and not an automatic death sentence.



I was part of the roll-out of the ground-breaking mother-to- child transmission treatment programme in the early 2000s. A single dose of nevirapine to lower the risk of transmission was administered before labour. Many young people are today alive because of that initial programme. They had to learn to live with a diagnosis that changed their lives forever, but they are alive and achieving their goals because of early intervention to stop transmission from mother to child.



Our biggest efforts today is to combat the stigma of young children living with the reality of being HIV positive. We



need better clinical management at primary care level where confidentiality and dignity of the patient must be re- emphasised. The lapsing of treatment in teenagers can be contributed in part on how they are treated at health facilities and the lack of psychosocial support in our schools and at primary health care level. The mental health of teenagers and children living HIV positive should form part of the fight against Aids. Many teenagers as they reach puberty become acutely of aware of their positive status and they suffer from depression that can lead to exiting treatment essential to their survival.



We call on Basic Education and Health to drive a consistent programme to ensure young people seeking treatment at facilities are treated with dignity and respect. Stigma and discrimination com bine with the lack of care for the patient due to the staff shortages at primary care level are the critical areas we must address. The mother-to-child transmission programme is one of South Africa’s best stories of fighting disease. The fight continues and the battle is won when the human being, and not the disease, is at the centre of treatment or service. And we are failing in that regard. I thank you.



Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson, World Aids Day is an important day because it serves as a reminder for all of us as government that, HIV/Aids is actually not gone away. It is an important day because it seeks to galvanise all the support and the help that we can give, in order to support those living with the disease and to ensure that we increase awareness and education about prevention measures.



While much has been achieved over the past and much more can still be done to address HIV-related challenges such as stigma and discrimination, and to ensure that we do a lot to improve the quality of life of the people living with HIV. Stigma and discrimination remains the biggest issues or challenge, as they serve as a major barrier to HIV prevention efforts. Due to a lack of quality information, people living with HIV are often stigmatised and live in constant fear of discrimination.



There is still a critical need to increase awareness about this disease, especially in rural areas. It is said that, men in this country are less likely than women to use HIV services, including testing and to initiate treatment upon diagnosis or adhere to treatment compared to women. Half of all HIV/Aids-related deaths in men are among those who never sought HIV care, and women are 27% less likely to die from



HIV-related diseases, because they will often go out and seek help and information in instances when that happens.



We have to, especially men in rural and peri-urban areas and men in general, have to be educated about ...





... ukuba yintoni abanakho ukuyenza ukuze bafumane uncedo xa bathe bafumaneka ukuba bosuleleke yiHIV/Aids. Kodwa enye into ethi ingenzeki yile yokuba, baninzi abantu bakuthi abasezilokishini nabasemakhaya abaye bathi ngoku sele bexelelwe ukuba bosulelekile, bangazityi iipilisi banagawaseli namayeza. Ngexesha leCOVID-19 abanye bebesithi xa besela ispirithi bathi babulala neHIV/Aids. Abanye bakholelwa kwinto ethi, xa besela utywala obufana nebranti nezinye izinto, babulala le Ntsholongwane kaGawulayo okanye bayayithomalalisa



Ezi ke zizinto urhulumente kunye neenkokheli zasekuhlaleni jikelele ekufaneleke ukuba bathetha ngayo. Kufuneka sibakhuthaze abantu ukuba baye ezibhedlele, baye ezikliniki ukuze bafumane uncedo, ukuze ikwazi le nto ukuncokolwa kwiindawo zonke eMzantsi Afrika.



Dr K L JACOBS: Thank you House Chairperson. Hon members, I want to tell you a story. When I was at medical school in the early 80s, we didn’t know about a thing called HIV and Aids. And then we had some lectures where they tried to teach us a little bit about this disease called HIV. But it started with the words Aids, so it was all about Aids. For the first time this word was used on 24 September 1982. Thereafter, many discussions were on the mode of transmission and the persons which were at the higher risk of becoming infected. That was the discussion at the time, much as the same as the experience that we had with COVID-19 recently.



On 11 January 1985, a revised definition of Aids noted that Aids is caused by a virus, the human immunodeficiency virus, as we know it today is HIV. On 22 October 1986, a nationwide education programme about early sex education in schools, increased use of condoms and voluntary HIV testing was launched, and which was five years later. But now, 40 years later, the world is in a worse position with 84,2 million people who have become infected with HIV, 40,1 million people died from Aids-related illnesses, and on average 38,4 million people globally were living with HIV. In 2021, 1,5 million people were infected with HIV only, and the same number of people were accessing antiretroviral therapy in the same year.



There is a reason I am telling this story, because you see on the African Continent, we are still the most severely affected, with nearly one in every 25 adults living with HIV and accounting for more than two thirds of the people living with HIV worldwide. However, with increasing access to effective HIV prevention, diagnosis, treatment and care, HIV infection has become a manageable chronic health condition, enabling people living with HIV to live long and healthy lives. So, what has gone wrong?



The United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, UNAIDS ... [Inaudible] ... a very simply a word “inequality”. Therefore, the theme of this year’s World AIDS Day is “equalise”.

Equalise access to services, equalise access to rights, equalise access to the best science and medicine. Equalising will not only help the marginalised, it will help everyone. According to predictions by the United Nations, there will be

10 billion people on the planet by 2055, and Africa will be responsible for 57% of this growth of 1,4 billion people.



So the good question will be, with this in mind: What is really necessary to deal with the challenge of these developmental questions? Where does it really lie and is it really to streamline young people as both beneficiaries and



agents of change? Because young teenagers and adolescents make up an increasing percentage of HIV-positive people globally.

Four hundred and ten young individuals aged 10-24 who have contracted HIV for the first time in 2020, and 150 000 were teenagers between the ages of 10-19 years of age. So, as it has been mentioned by hon Sukers that, 25% of adolescent females and 17% of adolescent boys between the ages of 15-19 in Eastern and Southern Africa, are the most afflicted by HIV.



Therefore, in order to address this, healthcare facilities should be transformed in a way that they prioritise the issue of the youth bulge as it relates to HIV. To encourage access to care by this growing population. To improve access to adolescent and youth friendly services. Now, there are two interventions by the department called, the adolescent the youth friendly services, which is expected to improve our young people’s access to health services. The department also established youth zones to ensure that these adolescent and youth friendly services form part of the package of health services provided at the primary health care level.



These zones seek to promote access to health and other services. Provide information and increase awareness about health related issues, sexual and reproductive health rights



and the rights of people living with HIV. Encourage young people to utilise services at public health facilities.

Provide a standardised package of services to young people. Provide health services which are non-judgemental and free from discrimination and stigmatisation. A one stop approach that provides multiple health services, including mental health and gender-based violence related support at those facilities.



So, in South Africa, the government is directed that all healthcare providers use a standards based quality improvement model to best use available resources, and ensure the provision of integrated sexual and reproductive health and HIV service package. Service that respond to the needs of young people. Services that are equitable, accessible, acceptable appropriate and efficient for young people. A service package that meets the prevention, risk reduction, service delivery, advocacy and information sharing needs of young people.

Because young people ... [Inaudible] ... stop this infection with the young people, we would have a better opportunity to save the world in the future.



So while challenges towards completely eliminating HIV transmission in South Africa exist, an Aids free future is



still possible. The onus is upon all of us, working with government and all its stakeholders to advocate for communities to apply caution and take the available measures to prevent the epidemic from continuing. I thank you.



Ms M O CLARKE: House Chairperson, today as we commemorate World Aids Day, all our communities must unite to raise awareness about HIV and Aids. But more importantly, show support for those who have been diagnosed and remember all those who have been tragically lost to the disease. World Aids Day is important because it reminds the public and government that HIV has not gone away. We cannot let up on raising awareness, fighting prejudice and improving education HIV diagnoses and treatment in our country. The state must ensure that existing public and private initiatives are maintained and that new ones are formed to spread awareness about the status of this pandemic and encourage progress in HIV/Aids prevention, treatment and care.



Just last week, I asked the Deputy President in this very House, what plans have been put in place to ensure continuity of HIV treatment if South Africa were to face another situation like Covid. South Africans would deny treatment during this period of time with no positive interventions from



the ANC government, and it appears that government has not got a plan to address this. Brave South Africans like Lucky Mazibuko’s contribution to the fight against HIV and Aids, particularly hoping to break down stigma associated with the virus has helped many millions more to openly seek help and treatment. Individuals like Lucky, Nkosi Johnson, and so many more must be recognised as heroes of our country. Their courage to come forward and change the narrative around being HIV-positive has made our society a more caring place, and three decades later, Lucky continues to fight the stigma around HIV.



We must further empower other lessons at young adults to make responsible decisions about their private lives, and improve their futures by changing community norms relating to attitudes, in particularly towards women. Empowering them regarding their sexuality, whom they freely wish to marry and when they feel ready to have children. To achieve this, we must strengthen health services in order for people to access sexual and reproductive health care in an environment free from judgement or bias. They need access to contraceptives, vaccinations against preventable diseases such as Human papillomavirus, HPV, hepatitis and prophylaxis. No person



should feel ashamed for doing the reasonable thing and being responsible in accessing sexual health services.



It is also important that we understand that we need to partner with young people to empower them, and this requires change in strategies that leads to healthier practices and lifelong good habits. Saving lives is of course a moral obligation. In the long run health care policy and funding must be geared to ensure pandemic burns itself out.

Unfortunately, HIV/Aids will remain a deadly virus if treatment doesn’t reach anyone who needs it, and new infections will not be stopped. Both Health and Social Development departments needs to be more aggressive in rolling out preventative treatment solutions such as pre-exposure prophylaxis. I challenge the Minister to take note and take lead from the ...[Inaudible.] ... in the Western Cape how to implement proper strategy. I thank you. [Time expired.]



Ms J S MANANISO: House Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members, let me start by acknowledging and appreciate the work done by our elders, mostly those taking care of the grandchildren and great- grandchildren in the absence of their parents due to this pandemic. Indeed, commemorating this day is an opportunity for every community to unite against HIV and



Aids, and to show support to those infected. This year, World Aids Day is about equalising and integrating to end Aids. It is important as it is aimed at healthy equity, a principle the ANC is committed to.



The South African government has created a conducive and enabling environment for people living with HIV and Aids from cradle to grave to thrive, and remains amongst the leading nations in Africa, that prioritises sexual reproduction health, especially for adolescent girls and young women. Young women continue to bear the brunt of poverty and diseases, as you heard the Deputy Minister actually gave us the statistics with regards to that. This link to their vulnerability that is worsened by the economic reality that has created an environment patriarchy and gender-based violence to thrive.



Numerous stories exist that bear evidence to the relationship between sexual violence and disease. One of the stories is that of a young woman in Brandvlei whom one had to meet during the 16 Days of Activism. She shared her story at the 16 Days of Activism programme hosted by Rotanganedza, where I had an opportunity to participate. Her talk highlighted local issues related to the impact of the stigma and non-adherence to treatment, as well as the lack of support from communities



that serves as a hindrance, especially for young women and girls to seeking help – treatment due to shame. This is unfortunately a story that is shared by thousands of young women in South Africa. It is the reality that hinders success in the treatment of HIV and requires that we elevate the work in this area.



The national Department of Health SheConquers Programme is a strategic programme that focuses on sexual and reproductive health. In particular, for adolescent girls and young women in order to curb the increase of teenage pregnancy and the spread of HIV across among the youth. However, building on the work done through SheConquers Programme and other strategic programmes that are led by the department. The three-year National Youth HIV Prevention Strategy 2022-2025 seeks to further integrate critical health and social services focus on youth development, social and behavioural change communication and improved access to quality health conduct and services.



Hon members, we have programmes called Zikhala Kanjani campaign. The department will continue to raise awareness about HIV, TB, STIs, sexual and reproductive health, and other key pertinent to the wellbeing of young people by encouraging health seeking behaviour through the utilisation of health and



social services, reinforcing knowledge and benefit of behavioural change and prompt action. This campaign will also inform the way the education sector intersects with health and wellness. It important that every child is informed about prevention and the importance of living a safe and healthy lifestyle. We can never relax to teach them while they are young about ABC or HIV prevention.





Le ojwa le sale metsi.





It is critical to also acknowledge that there is an important link in the education sector across Basic Education and Higher Education and Training. In light of this, there are strategy policies programmes in place to ensure that we deal with the root causes of this pandemic from an early age in academic institutions. There are efforts to prioritise programmes that focus on life skills, peer education and talks that focus on adolescent, as I emphasised because these actually affects young people.



An example of this is work that is done by Higher Health, which is a national agency that seeks to inspire success of



2 million students. Those who attends 26 universities, 50 TVET colleges across the country by improving their health and wellbeing. Through initiatives it seeks to reduce the effect of health related conditions that often students ... [Inaudible.] ... studies and which is left unaddressed can lead to the student delaying the completion and abandoning their studies.



In all institutions there are programmes like First Things First, Future ... [Inaudible.] ... and those that speaks about peer integrating health topics. We take note of the work that has been done by Science, Innovation and Technology that has been used over the years to advance primary healthcare services. The main development that takes place are in the HIV area testing through strengthening partnership with the ... [Inaudible.] ... stakeholders. The main development that have taken place as well is around the POC antibodies testing and HIV treatment. We can win the fight and eliminate HIV in improving health outcomes. However, this requires that a nation stands together in this fight towards HIV-free future. If you love them, protect them and yourself to other health workers. Let not your attitude be an excuse to those with no alternatives.



Health workers must improve the customer service in our local clinics and as well, our councillors must do their work in terms of ensuring that people visit the nearest clinic. Those who have actually defaulted there is a programme that speaks about tracing those who have defaulted so that they can go back and start drinking their medications. Hon members, it is upon ourselves as members of this Parliament that we become custodians and activists of HIV and Aids in terms of ensuring that we have 365 days’ awareness campaigns. To LGBTQ+ society, people with albinism, people with disabilities and other vulnerable groups, when you see symptoms, just visit your nearest clinic. I thank you.



Ms H ISMAIL: Chair, South Africa has a dubious distinction of leading the world in terms of HIV/Aids infections with more than 8 million people currently living with the disease. This has, however, allowed us to become experts in treating and preventing HIV/ Aids, and also allowed our immunology experts to be at the forefront of COVID-19 research when the global pandemic broke.



Hopefully, this co-operation between international experts will continue and give life to this year's theme for World Aids which is Global Solidarity Shared Responsibility. Whilst



South Africa has managed to continually push the envelope in terms of aid treatment and prevention and is in fact, well on its way to reaching the UN’s Aid Strategy.



The COVID-19 pandemic has put decades of progress at risk, and it would need a concerted and unified effort from all stakeholders to ensure that the gains of the biggest HIV/ARV treatment programme in the world are not eroded. Many HIV- positive individuals had their treatment interrupted due to the myriad of challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. This is especially worrying as the World Health Organization estimated that a disruption in treatment of six months or longer could skyrocket AIDS-related deaths by an extra 500 000 in sub- Saharan Africa. To ensure that South Africa's HIV/ Aids programmes do not regress, the challenges identified by the health care professionals on the ground need to be urgently addressed.



At many of my oversight visits to public health care facilities, doctors and nurses highlighted shortages, whether in medication, staff or equipment. Inadequate infrastructure and the need for clear communication regarding the benefits and implementation of the HIV/Aids programmes are barriers to ensuring that as many HIV-positive individuals as possible



receive treatment. Communication and education have always been crucial to South Africa's success in dealing with HIV/Aids and it remains of the utmost importance as stigma is still a massive problem. “A 2018 study concluded, AIDS-related deaths are ending but they're leaving in their wake new liberal ways of being and blaming, as well as a burgeoning chronically ill population whose many illnesses are not on the global health funding agenda for low-income countries.” In many ways, it seems the success of HIV/Aids treatment has morphed the stigma away from blaming people for becoming infected to shaming them if they're struggling to stay healthy. This is a problem that's exacerbated by the country's cost of living crisis, especially in rural and poor communities where access to quality health care and regular nutritious meals might be difficult.



Given that just this year the number of estimated deaths linked to HIV/Aids has surpassed 85 000. The ANC government will have to ramp up communication, education, and access. Doctors and nurses cannot fight this pandemic on their own. They need urgent, well-organised and practical implementable support. Empty promises simply won't do anymore. Thank you.








... Sotswebhu Omkhulu, siyabonga.





Hon members who are in the House today, fellow South Africans, and in particular the young people of South Africa. I think today is a day when we as members of the House need to pay more attention to speaking to the young people of South Africa. It is an honour for me today to be here on this important day. I firstly would like to thank the hon members who spoke before me and in particular those who focused on what is to be done. Those who focused on uniting us to fight against HIV and Aids. Those who chose to be focused on progressive statements are going to help us deal with this.

Before ...





 ... nje ngiqhubeke, ngicela ukuthi, umhlonishwa u-Wilson okhulume ngaphambili, wena uphikisane nelinye ilungu le-DA elikhulume kahle la ekhuluma ngoba azi ukuthi ...






 ... this is one thing we cannot afford to turn into a political football. It is a very serious matter. So, hon Wilson ...





... sisacela ukuthi sikudonse ngendlebe kancane ukuthi ...





... on a day like this ...





 ... ipolitiki kufuneka uyibeke eceleni ugxile ekutheni abantu bakithi singabasiza kanjani ukuze bazi ukuthi sisakhona iSandulelangculaza neNgculaza ukuze bazi ukuthi njengoba sihamba nje siya koKhisimusi nezinye izinto kufuneka sibasize ukuthi bazicabangele kwabona. Ngakhoke wena mhlonishwa u- Wilson ngifuna ukutshela ukuthi ulaka angisenalo mina. Wena uma unolaka uzosala wedwa. Bengikudonsa nje ngendlebe kancane ukuthi ubokwazi ukuthi uma sikule nkundla ngesinye isikhathi kufanele sibe nenqubekela phambili endleleni yethu.

Okwesibili, ngicela ukubonga ... [Ubuwelewele.] ...






The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: If you are angry you will remain alone!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister! Hon Minister! You must abide by the Rules, hon Minister, please. You are disrupting your colleague in the Cabinet. Please continue, hon Minister.







uDokotela u-Thembekwayo we-EFF noMama uHlengwa we-IFP nabo bonke nje abakhulume kahle namhlanje ngoba leli ilanga elifuna ukuthi sizame ukuba munye njengesizwe ...





 ... as we have been able to be united on many other issues which are social ills in our country.





Ngibonge futhi nalaba be-ANC abakhulumile ngokuthi imfundo isemqoka. Basho ukuthi amalungelo ezempilo ngezocansi kanye nokuzala abalulekile. Bakhuluma nangokuthi kukhona izinhlelo ezifana ne-She Conquers ezizama ukusiza abantu basekhaya. Mina



bese ngiyongeza ngithi kune-She Conquers, sekukhona enye manje ebizwa, phecelezi i-She Decides.



Lezo yizinhlangano okufuneka sithi ukuwabhekisisa kahle siziseke ...





 ... because their focus is on helping our people. Please allow me also to say, as the different workplaces are starting to wind down and allowing their employees to join their loved ones, families and relations during the forthcoming festive period, we appeal with every South African to make it their responsibility to; one, support their fellow community members, especially those living with or affected with Aids; two, express the forms of compassion that define the essence of being South Africans; three, avoid circumstances that may compromise their integrity and contribute to risky, sexual and related behaviours. We continue to condemn socially irresponsible phenomena such as ... [Inaudible.] ... blessers, sugar mamas and sugar daddies as Deputy Minister Dhlomo referred to earlier; four, not to consume harmful substances such as alcohol and designer drugs. Over the years our government’s resolve and policies have been to resolutely and consistently invest in the inclusive and integrated



equalisation of health services and socioeconomic opportunities for all our citizens who live with Aids.



This is informed by our principal belief this is a suitable approach by which our society can realise the value of each person’s capabilities. Consequently, in observing World Aids Day under the theme, Equalise and Integrate to End Aids Today, all South Africans recognise the need to intensify the HIV response trajectory that is sensible to our communities.

Amongst our policies and strategies are the HIV Prevention Strategy, HIV Testing Policy Guidelines, ART Consolidated Guidelines, Revised Adherence Guidelines Standard Operating Procedure, Policy Guidelines to Attaining Case Findings Linkages to Care and Adherence to Treatment and Retention





Ngicela ukusho nje ukuthi lezi zinhlelo esikhuluma ngazo ...





 ... are the vehicles which the government must use to assist our people. Henceforth, and in particular owing to the unfounded stigmatisation of HIV and Aids, whether in our families, communities, workplaces and civil society formations or we pursue economic activities to secure dignified



livelihoods. It has been proven, time and time again, with the requisite levels of treatment adherence, the capabilities of people who have either tested HIV-positive or live with Aids can productively contribute towards community building, the reconstruction of institutions, society and the economy.



Against the backdrop of the multiple shocks our society has been through in recent years, we need all of us to innovate social, technological and other relevant solutions for these hardships. To this, I join the majority of South Africans who are welcoming the news from Statistics SA that the economy created some 204 000 jobs in the third quarter of the year.

This brought down the unemployment rate to 32,9% Having said that, we stand together with all the unemployed population in every community throughout our country, the youth, women and men alike in saying, more needs to be done to accelerate job- creating economic growth and recovery that benefits our compatriots who live with Aids. For us to create a symbiotic relationship between the contributions of fellow South Africans who live with Aids and all of society and the economy from this point onwards, we ought to, one, particularly locate 95% of men, and children under the age of 15 and youth who live with Aids in for the government’s quality of life improvement health care services to target them; consistently



encourage adherence to treatment and socialise life-cherishing attitudes and behaviours amongst all the population receiving clinical and other interventions; have each South African conducting regular check-ups for them to enjoy family life and optimally be productive.



I do want to say here that, as a nation, we take time to do the check-ups which we have to do all the time, and in many instances, it has nothing to do with your status or your education at all. We, as South Africans, have a problem of not going to see the doctor. We wait until we are sick, and then we go to a doctor. So, as the Minister of Social Development, I wish to encourage all South Africans, including all of us who are sitting in this House, to make sure that we go for regular check-ups. Ours is a government that cares for its people regardless of one’s HIV status. This is the government that recognises the valuable capabilities of all the citizens towards developing our collective resilience. Central to the need for social reconstruction and recovery, we are implementing in deep recognition that; one, children, including orphaned children, are South Africa’s future; two, acts of compassion are the thread that is holding our society. This must be always understood. Compassion is very important. We must always ensure when we see people who are struggling,



we take it upon ourselves to make sure they are supported. Thank you very much, Chair.



Debate concluded.



The House adjourned at 17:46.