Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 22 Nov 2022


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary

The House met at 14:00.

The House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick. took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms T M RAMADWA (ANC): The ANC welcome the results from Operation Ziveze, an investigation launched by the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, last year into the discovery of ghost workers.

About 1 159 employees vanished from the payroll system of the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa in a single day when the parastatal launched the investigation.

The disappearance of these people saved Prasa R200 million in salaries that were paid to people who were earning salaries but not doing any work for the agency. Prasa also noticed that its salary bill had dropped by R20 million a month during the investigations. Those who vanished included the lowest paid worker up to assistant managers. A total of 3 000 employees failed to present themselves for the verification process. The investigation was conducted with the support of Home Affairs, the SA Revenue Service, Umalusi, and the SA Qualifications Authority.

The Special Investigating Unit has been brought in to investigate as Prasa believed that those who resigned could be working with someone inside the company. Those within and outside Prasa responsible for the creation and payment of these ghost workers must fully account for this act of corruption. As
... [Inaudible.] ... Thank you. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Ms H ISMAIL (DA): Chair, the DA would like to congratulate Ald Tania Campbell, following her re-election as Executive Mayor of the City of Ekurhuleni.

Once again, we saw an attempt by the coalition of corruption to bring an end the hard work and dedication that the multi- party government has brought to this great city. Once again,
we watched the ANC, and their cronies try to get their hands back on the finances of Ekurhuleni. And once again, we saw them fail dismally as their corrupt cabal struggled to even agree amongst themselves.

This poor attempt at political point scoring has failed and now the multi-party government can continue with the work it
is are doing to fix what the ANC broke.

But these political shenanigans have come at a cost. A financial cost and a cost in terms of service delivery.
Putting an entire metropolitan municipality on pause while backroom deals are done leaves residents neglected and uncertain as to what will happen next. Now that the ANC and its proxy parties are done playing, we will get back to working for the residents of this fine city.

The multi-party coalition has spent 10 months working to undo the damage caused by the ANC over the past two decades. We have managed to achieve a number of successes and have been able to bring changes for the better to the lives of many of
our residents.

From the opening of a Skills Centre in Vosloorus to Early Childhood Development Centers in Palm Ridge and Katlehong, from electrifying 1 367 households which previously had no power to installing over 48 water points, from cleaning and rehabilitating 112 illegal dumping hotspots to more than 48 kilometres of roads being rehabilitated and 47 independent power producers appointed to assist in ending loadshedding.

The DA-led multi-party coalition ... [Inaudible] ... [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr N S MATIASE (EFF): Chairperson, whilst we are all subject to electricity blackouts on a regular basis the people of Bethlehem in Dihlabeng Local Municipality, Senekal in Setsolo Municipality and some parts of Quaqua in Maluti-a Phofung in Thabo Mofutsanyana District are condemned to water blackouts.

These municipalities just cut water without notice or explanation. people don’t know why they don’t have water and they also don’t know when the water will come back.

The only people who have clean and reliable water are people who can afford Jojo Tanks. The rest are expected to drink water with animals. In Dihlabeng Local Municipality the money allocated to fix water pump in Saulspoortt Dam has disappeared. And no one is being held accountable for the disappearance of the public money.

In Quaqua, Maloti-a-Phofong Municipality, these municipalities have completely collapsed and our people have not received water and the Minister sitting here cannot tell us where our people must get water from. Despite the Sterkfontein Dam in close proximity if you collapse the municipality where must people get water to drink, cook and wash.

We sit here with bottled water but our people do not have water to drink and we think this is acceptable. It is not acceptable, hon Chair, and we want to make it that clear our people need water and cannot wait. Can the Minister tell us what the people of Bethlehem, Senekal and Quaqua in Phuthaditjhaba should do when they have got no water? What is it that they should ... [Time expired]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr H G APRIL (ANC): Chairperson, a new deep space ground station being built in South Africa's semi-desert Karoo Region will come online by 2025 to help track history making National Aeronautics and Space Administration, Nasa, missions to the moon and beyond.

Through its Artemis program, which aims to land the first woman or black person on the moon by 2025, the U.S Nasa, is targeting the month of November for an inaugural launch of its next generation rocket ship, delayed for weeks by technical setbacks and bad weather.

Matjiesfontein, which is only the third primary site being developed globally, will become part of a network of other ground stations in the United States and Australia.

Designed with an array of antennae, including a three storey,

20 metre, 22-yard diameter dish being procured by Nasa, the station will help improve coverage and redundancy for critical mission support to the Moon, Mars and beyond.

The SA National Space Agency, will establish, operate and maintain the station. South Africa has committed an initial R70 million, which is $3,93 million to build the infrastructure and communications needed to be ready on site. The infrastructure and communications needed to be ready on site, part of the government's investment in building its space infrastructure and research base. We thank you, Chair.



(Member’s Statement)

Mr N SINGH (IFP): Hon Chairperson, we are at the core of one of the biggest scars in the agriculture sector. We are watching with angst while the livelihood of thousands is at risk. The

biggest sugar-producing company is at the perils of demise, and the impact its end will have cannot be salvaged.

Tongaat Hulett has contributed immensely to the health of our agricultural sector, and employment opportunities. It has been the bedrock and foundation of the KwaZulu-Natal economy, sugar production, and provider of thousands of jobs in the country. In a very poor employment dispensation, we cannot afford to have thousands without jobs or incomes. The small-scale farmers and cane growers are at the receiving end of this injustice with little to no protection offered as a cushion.

The IFP pleads with the powers that be and government departments such as the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform, and Rural Development, and the Department of Trade Industry and Competition to actively participate in the attempts to shield our people from the agriculture giant’s woes.

Our current reality does not allow us to sit and do nothing while the livelihoods of a thousand are at risk. We have to be more active than ever to ensure that our people and the economy do not crumble down. The reality is that the shutting down of Tongaat Hulett would have effects that nobody can ever quantify or fully counter. Our concern is that the company's small-scale

farmers and workers will pay for the maladministration of a few, which we cannot allow.

We cannot watch this catastrophe happening while sitting. We need proactive measures to protect our economy and our people. And the government is the last line of defence and. ....
[Inaudible.] ... I thank you. [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr F J MULDER (FF PLUS): Hon House Chair, in response to newspaper articles caring comments from chief executive officers about heavily armed criminals masquerading as community representatives though door-stopping constructions site, disrupting operations, and demanding protection money or a share in the value of the contract.

President Cyril Ramaphosa said in the state of the nation address more than two years ago that he prioritised to the growing problem of criminal groups that extort money from construction and other businesses. Specialised units -

bringing together the SA Police Service and the National Prosecuting Authority - are mandated to combat these crimes of economic disruption.

In 2019 at least 183 infrastructure and construction projects worth more than R63 billion had been affected by these disruptions across the country to name Eskom and Transnet but a few.

The success of the various industrial mafia is a result of the government’s incompetent handling of the problem, which has now developed into a national crisis that threaten to scary away capitals and skills in an alarming scale and our most of the communities this so called business forum claim to represent.

The FF Plus will investigate further and act against any further form of continues neglect by the ANC government in this regard. Thank you, House Chair.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr B M HADEBE (ANC): House Chair, the ANC welcomes the report by the National Atlantic treaty Organisation, Nato, and the Polish government that a missile that struck and killed two citizens in a village in the eastern Poland on Tuesday 15 November was an accidental hit by a stray Ukrainian air defence rocket.

It is now confirmed that the missile that hit a grain facility near the border of Ukraine, was probably an old S-300 rocket, likely being used as a Ukrainian air defence missile. Initially Russia was heavily suspected of firing the missile. The blast raised global alarm that the Ukraine conflict could spill into neighbouring countries.

South Africa must continue to reiterate its position that the UN Security Council should play a constructive role in resolving
this almost nine months’ conflict between Russia and Ukraine.


The General Assembly should create conditions conducive for dialogue, mediation and diplomacy. As a country, we have always maintained our stance of upholding dialogue and diplomacy as mechanisms that can bring about peaceful settlement to conflicts.

These are principles informed by the United Nation Charter on the international relations. We are calling for the end of this conflict and for peace to prevail. I thank you.



(Member’s Statement)


Dr A LOTRIET (DA): Voorsitter, na afloop van die taaldebakel wat deur die internasionale filmster, Charlize Theron van Benoni, veroorsaak is, bevestig ek graag hiermee dat daar meer as 44 lede in die DA se diverse, multikulturele parlementêre koukus is wat Afrikaans kan praat.

Afrikaans word as die mees diverse taal in Suid-Afrika beskou, en is ook die derde grootste taal in die land, wat deur ongeveer 12,2% van ons land se inwoners van uiteenlopende agtergronde gepraat word.

Die DA het onlangs veldtogte geloods om die Afrikaanse Taalmonument teen aanslae van Minister Nathi Mthethwa en sy departement te beskerm. Ons veg ook al jare lank vir die bemagtiging en beskerming van Afrikaans as onderrigtaal by die

Universiteit Stellenbosch, waar daar verskeie pogings was om Afrikaans as onderrigmedium uit te wis, asook dat die Department van Hoër Onderwys Afrikaans as die inheemse taal wat dit is erken in die departement se nuwe taalbeleid.

Ons inheemse tale is nie eenvoudig net meganismes vir kommunikasie tussen moedertaalsprekers nie, maar dien ook ‘n verskriklike belangrike rol om uitdrukking te gee aan ons unieke Suid-Afrikaanse identiteite, kulture en erfenisse.

Dit is dus baie jammer dat soveel geld en energie deur die ANC regering vermors word om Afrikaans te belaster terwyl ons land se ekonomie en infrastruktuur verkrummel. Selfs hier by die Parlement moes ons lede wat op die Justisie en Korrektiewe Dienste Portefeuljekomitee dien ernstig beswaar maak teen die aanstootlike uitsondering en teikening van Afrikaans in the Wetsontwerop oor die Voorkoming van Haatmisdade en Haatspraak.

Ek wil graag inheemse taalgebruikers en veral Afrikaanssprekendes verseker dat die DA sal aanhou om op te staan vir almal ... [Tyd verstreke.]


(Member’s Statement)

Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): House Chairperson, in a desperate attempt to keep businesses going and the lights on Germany has turned to its most reliable energy source which is fossil fuel. At least 20 coal fire power plants nationwide are reportedly being resurrected or are extended past their closing date to ensure that Germany has enough energy to get through their winter.

In January government and regional leaders in Germany agreed on a plan to faced out coal fire power stations by 2038. There are also reports that they are planning to open a new coal fire power plant this year.

According to data from the US nonprofit Global Energy Monitor the Udangudi Plant is one of the nearly 200 coal fire power station under construction in Asia, including 95 in China, 28 in India and 23 in Indonesia. With these constructions jobs are being created for locals while in South Africa power stations are being shut down and jobs are being lost.

The ACDP would like to know why the government allows Western leaders to pressurise South Africa into moving away from

reliance on coal power to green energy while countries such as Germany are allowed to move back to fossil fuel to keep their businesses going and their lights on. Thank you.



(Member’s Statement)

Ms K D MAHLATSI (ANC): House Chair, every year, 29 November marks the International Day of Solidarity with the people Palestine. It’s a day to remember that the Palestinian people have not yet attained certain inalienable rights, including national independence and sovereignty.

More than 8 million Palestinian people live in the Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. This territory has been occupied since the six-day of war in 1967, when Israel defeated Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

The government and the people of South Africa must join the international community in reiterating our unwavering solidarity with the people of Palestine.

South Africa urges the global community to act purposively towards a just and peaceful end of the occupation as guided by international law.

A just ending of the occupation must address disputes regarding the borders for a viable two state solution, the return of all Palestinian refugees, the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian State and halting all illegal settlements.

South Africa calls on all stakeholders to ensure that all obligations under international law are met in order for a peaceful and just ending of the occupation of Palestine. I thank you, Chair.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM (NFP): House Chairperson, the NFP notes with great concern as seen on mainstream and other media platforms. The Department of Basic Education intends on introducing unisex toilets in schools.

The NFP further notes with concern that despite the failure of the Department of Basic Education to provide adequate sanitation facilities for our learners many of whom continue to use pit toilets and some even die in these pit toilets that are provided by the department.

The NFP further raises the concern about the poor quality of education resulting in one or two learners droping out of school. Further notes that 60% of learners from Basic Education that go to Tvet colleges dropout in the first year because of the poor quality of Basic Education level. The Minister should focus on that. The introduction of unisex toilets will infringe ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam, I think you have muted yourself. Hon Shaik Emam, if you are still on the platform, please unmute yourself and continue. No, it seems to me he has difficulty with the connection ... [Inaudible.] ...

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM (NFP): ... their constitutional rights to majority of them. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shaik Emam, we unfortunately did not hear the last part of your Member’s Statement.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms K D MAHLATSI(ANC): House Chairperson, we welcome the judgement delivered by the Pretoria High Court on Thursday 10 November 2022, in which the Trade Union Solidarity’s legal challenge to prevent the government from implementing the NHI failed.

This follows an attempt by Solidarity to interdict the National Department of Health through an urgent court application, from filling the advertised 44 vacancies as part of efforts by the department to establish a fully functioning National Health Insurance, NHI, Branch while the legislative process on the NHI Bill is underway.

The Union filed an urgent court application in the Pretoria High Court on 12 October 2022, interdicting the Department of Health

from making appointments of competent technical specialists to the NHI Branch to assist with the preparations for the functioning of the NHI Fund.

The judge dismissed the application by the Solidarity Union with costs. The objectives of the NHI, is to provide universal access to quality and affordable health care for all South Africans, irrespective of their socioeconomic status, by ensuring that the use of health services does not result in financial hardship for individuals and their families.

This progressive approach to health provision is the policy of the World Health Organisation.

NHI will be implemented in a progressive and responsible manner in our country. Thank you very much, House Chair.



(Member’s Statement)

Adv G BREYTENBACH (DA): Hon House Chair, on 10 September 2021, the DA applied to the Gauteng High Court to review and set aside the unlawful decision of Arthur Fraser, Zuma accolade

and Commissioner of Correctional Services to override the recommendation on the medical parole board and released former President Zuma on medical parole.

A High Court declared Mr Zuma’s medical parole unlawful and

ordered his return to prison to serve the remainder of his sentence. The Department of Correctional Services makes waste
of taxpayers’ money and appealed this ruling but unsuccessfully.

Yesterday, the Supreme Court of Appeal unanimously upheld the

decision of the Gauteng High Court declaring the medical

parole illegal and ask Mr Zuma to return to prison to serve the remainder of his sentence. This is not ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order! Let’s listen to the statement and not the background sound. Continue, hon Breytenbach

Adv G BREYTENBACH (DA): This is another victory for the rule of law and the principle of equality before the law. And shall once again vindicated the DA in our fight to ensure that Mr Zuma account for his crimes.

The Department of Correctional Services must ensure that Mr Zuma must returns to the prison immediately to serve the remainder of his sentence. I thank you.



(Member’s Statement)

Ms Y N YAKO (EFF): Chairperson, we have an agency called the Cross-Border Road Transport Agency that received more than
R38 million from the fiscus and collect more that R200 million permits issued, permits application fees and fines.

We cannot allow this agency to have such crucial mandate in the hands of people who do not have experience managing complex organisations.

The Cross-Road Border Transport Agency is run like a circus. The chief executive officer confuses his family and friends fair relationship with legislature. The place is a mass. The Minister pretends like is not happening and he will wait for newspaper articles to start irritating us with oversight visit and forensic investigations. The chief executive officer is firing people for nonsensical reasons instead of dealing with

his own insecurities. And when all these people win awards at the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, we will make sure he pays out of his pocket.

How did Mohale solutions get the R1, 6 million contract to redesign the organisation. Why was the contract cancelled and at the same time the company paid R750 000 for a contract that was been canceled? Where did the file go? Why is Adv Tsako who is now the judiciary service executive forcing service providers who have contracts with the agency to appoint people. And when they refused he goes and claims poor performance. This is what happens when the chief executive officer writes in his qualifications he has a Master’s Degree as a qualification and at the same line writes that his dissertation is outstanding. What kind of qualification is that? We ask the Minister all these questions as earlier as 14 October this year but he does not seem he need to respond.
What must happen to Mr Mbalula to answer the question. Thank you. [Time expired]



(Member’s Statement)

Mr O M MATHAFA (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC-led government resolve to strengthen the criminal justice system to recover stolen public funds is slowly yielding expected results.

This is evident with the Special Investigating Unit recovering’s of at least R300 million from a Technical and Vocational Education and Training College, money that was meant for students on the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.

The SIU undertook the investigation about the money after President Cyril Ramaphosa signed a proclamation authorising the corruption busting unit to investigate the affairs of NSFAS.

The Northlink College received over R33 million from NSFAS to be allocated to deserving students between 2017 and 2021. The money was invested without authorisation instead of returning it to NSFAS.

The ANC is fully behind the SIU investigation on allegations of corruption and maladministration at NSFAS as well as the recovery of any financial losses suffered by the state through corruption and negligence. I thank you, House Chair.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr X O QAYISO (ANC): Chairperson ...


The House CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, may I

request those around the member there, you are disturbing, hon member who is on the floor.

Mr X O QAYISO (ANC): ... for millions of South Africans in rural

areas, roads and bridges provide access to markets, employment

opportunities and social services.


We therefore welcome the announcement that the Eastern Cape is set to receive a major economic boost with the appointment of a
contractor to build the long awaited Mtentu Bridge, which forms part of the N2 Wild Coast Road Project, as well as the
rehabilitation of the R56 from Matatiele to the east of the Cedarville project.

The SA National Roads Agency SCO Limited made the announcement last week, after completing all procurement processes following the May 2022 cancellation of bids.

In addition to these two projects, strategic roads such as the R61 from Magusheni to Mzamba, R58 Cala to Engcobo also known as Satansnek and the R411 from Mqanduli to Coffee Bay have been awarded. An announcement will be made in due course about the
N2 from KwaBhaca (Mount Frere) to Ngcweleni River project.


These two projects will bring the much needed socioeconomic

development to the province, providing job opportunities and address the triple challenges of unemployment, inequality and


The announcement of these critical road infrastructure projects

increases public sector investment in the province by almost R7 billion. Thank you, Chair.


(Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: You are reading me correctly, House Chair. I think ...


Basazophendula abanye ezinye izinto. Mina nje bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi DA ngelinye ilanga kufuneka isichazele ukuthi yini le engaka uZuma ayenza noma angayenzanga. Kufuneka ichaze ngelinye ilanga, hhayi namhlanje.



(Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Singh raised the Tongaat Hulett problem ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let us give the Minister on the floor an opportunity to respond to the statements that you made.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, I am responding to the Tongaat Hulett problem. I just want to give an indication that the matter is getting attention precisely for the same reasons the member is talking about. The impact, particularly on the emerging farmers and the socioeconomic impact in that area is what concerns us more. It is a matter which is getting attention. Some few colleagues are working on it. Thank you.


(Minister’s Response)


Chair, I heard the statements when I was coming because I had connected that there are pit toilets. We are busy. We reported on several occasions in this House that the Department of Basic Education is working on a project called “Safe” to build those toilets that are not of good standards. There were 3 800 of those. We are only left with about 100, which we always say in this very same House that we are going to complete them during this financial year. The new schools we built have no pit toilets. We only experience challenges where the entire community does not have water. So, the toilets we have built are water borne and they are not usable because the entire community does not have water. That is the only challenge that we are experiencing. We do drill boreholes and put tanks for the schools to have water, only for the entire community to come and get water from the schools. It is just unfortunate that the hon member is at home and he is experiencing connectivity problems. I don’t know if he understands. I am happy that hon Hlengwa also heard me as I am speaking now.
Thank you, House Chair.


(Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, His Excellency, President Ramaphosa is on a state visit to the United Kingdom starting today. Part of his delegation is Minister Phaahla and part of the agenda items that will be tabled there is to look into the 70-year history of the national health system that is currently being used in the United Kingdom. They have had they own pitfalls but they look at the success stories thereof, that is why we are so grateful about the hon member statement that speaks to the universal health coverage as a system that we want to adopt in our country, a system that wants to see every South African, poor or rich, small or big having access to quality health care. That is a programme that we are involved in, and we are very happy that every South African ... in fact, we received this Bill when I was still a chairperson of the portfolio committee. We went through the whole country getting the views of the South Africans. The majority of South Africans were telling us that we should have implemented this yesterday. It actually talks to South Africans who are here in this House to say I have a privilege as a Member of Parliament, I earn, but

I also get a huge subsidy support for my medical aid. I don’t care what happens to my domestic worker and to my gardener. It will change that picture so that all of us as South Africans, whether you are a gardener or a tea girl or a boss, you will be sitting on the same bed, be looked after and be supported. We are pushing very strongly that the National Health Insurance, NHI, should actually move there. Thank you very much.


(Draft Resolution)

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Good afternoon, House Chairperson and good afternoon to my colleagues, I want to respond together with Minister Creecy on the statement by the leader of the ACDP, Rev Meshoe and indicate the following which Minister Creecy will add to from her experience at Cop
27. Firstly, I think that we need to all accept that climate change is a reality, it has arrived, and it is impacting on people both in South Africa and elsewhere in the world. We should do everything possible to ensure that we keep to the missions’ commitments that we have made at Cop 26 and during the Paris agreement itself.

Secondly, as far as the construction of coal-powered stations are concerned, very few financial institutions will support the financing of coal-powered stations.

Lastly, there are stations that have reached their sell-by date so to speak, they are 50-years-old within the Eskom fleet and the first of those, Komati has become the world leader project in terms of the gas energy transition. Minister Creecy will, I am sure, explain the kind of attention that the investment plan from South Africa attracted at Cop 27 itself. So, South Africa will not be dictated by western leaders. I think every country in world has had to make some kind of adjustments in view of the war that’s taking place in Europe to their energy sources and energy requirements. It has brought a bit of reality home to western leaders as well, particularly in Europe. Hopefully, that helps us to work in a more co-operative way with these countries. Thank you.


(Draft Resolution)


DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson and

hon members, and thank you very much for the statement that hon Singh raised in respect of Tongaat. The Minister of Finance has already responded in part to this matter. I just want to indicate that as government, particularly the Minister of Finance, the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, DTIC, and Agriculture are engaging and have been engaging with all stakeholders within the sugar industry, particularly those that are going to be affected severely by the challenges experienced at Tongaat Hulett.

It is important for us to appreciate that currently the company is under business rescue and we therefore need to give that process a chance to be able to do what it needs to do in trying to rescue that business. I must say that we were really heartened that the business rescue practitioners decided in their wisdom that they would pay the small-scale farmers first, particularly those who have already delivered their sugar in the mills. However, it is also important to appreciate that there were certain decisions that had unfortunately put Tongaat Hulett in the situation that it is in together with the industry at in the province. Therefore, as we try to look at what we need to do, it is also important to appreciate that in future, our companies must be able to conduct their business in a manner that does not - at a

particular point in time – bring them into such a situation where a number of industries downstream and upstream gets affected by that. But I want to assure you, hon Singh, members, and in particular, our small-scale growers, other growers and the workers in the KwaZulu-Natal province that we are doing everything possible to make sure that the province, particularly that industry is not severely impacted upon.
Thank you very much, hon House Chair.


(Draft Resolution)


you very much, hon House Chair, just to build on what hon Minister Pravin Gordhan said that the just energy transition investment plan that was shared with the international partners at Cop 27 is a South African-led and developed plan based on two principles: firstly, is that our energy transition will be at a pace that our country can afford and will ensure that it promotes energy security; and lastly, workers and vulnerable communities, particularly those in the Mpumalanga coal belt will be central to deciding the repurposing of coal-powered stations and the development of

other industries in the Mpumalanga value chain so that new forms of employment are created and no one is left behind.

One of the questions I personally asked the European Union when I was at Cop 27 was whether it is true that they are going back to coal. The international energy agency give us the following statistics: firstly, yes, there is going to be a seven percent increase in the use of coal in the European energy mix this winter because the Russian gas is too expensive; secondly, the European Union, this year, will continue to decrease their carbon emissions in line with their nationally determined contributions that were submitted by their member countries last year; thirdly, while the crisis is providing a short-term boost to coal, the long-term gain is in renewables and in atomic energy with 50 gigawatts of renewable energy due to come onstream next year.

South Africa has to join in the global technology shift to greener types of production and energy generation if we don’t want to be affected by carbon-bordered tariffs that will affect all our goods and services in the future if we don’t develop these new industries. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.


(Consideration of Report and Bill)

There was no debate.


That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.


(Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chairperson, colleagues, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, today marks a

significant milestone in actions taken by South Africa to address deficiencies identified in the country’s ability to deal with money laundering and financing of terrorism by the Financial Action Task Force and the risk of grey listing. By passing the General Laws (Anti-Money Laundering and Combating Terrorism Financing) Amendment Bill and the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Amendment Bill, which is coming, this House demonstrates its commitments to not only addressing the issues which risk grey listing by the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, but more importantly it is this government’s commitment to root out and prevent financial crimes and proceeds of corruption.

The Bill amends five pieces of legislations to certify the technical compliance deficiencies - deficiencies relating to the adequacy of laws and legal frameworks related to the 40 FATF recommendations that we identified in the mutual evaluation report. These technical compliance deficiencies represent one half of the exam that we must pass. There are about few legislations which encompasses other departments to amend the Bills to address deficiencies in at least 14 of the
20 recommendations including appropriate enhancement of power procedures for regulatory authorities. In parallel the

Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Amendment Bill 2022, which is administered by the Minister of Police, is currently before Parliament. I hope it will be passed soon. When enacted into law it will improve South Africa’s adherence to international best practices in combating financial crimes and corruption and stand as the strongest possible evidence of this House’s commitment in fighting financial corruption.

Hon members, the National Assembly will now consider the report of the Standing Committee on Finance and vote on the Bill with the amendments proposed by the Standing Committee on Finance in its report. If the National Assembly adopts this Bill with the proposed amendments, the National Council of Provinces and the Select Committee on Finance in the NCOP will then consider the Bill.

In addition to the laws we are passing, the country is also working to improve the effectiveness of the country’s antimoney laundering and combating the financing of terrorism system. This represent the second half of the exam we must pass. This relates to how the country’s antimoney laundering and combating the financing of terrorism laws are implemented

and how effective the country’s systems are in combating financial crimes.

I, along with the director-general, have been mandated by the Cabinet to ensure co-ordination across departments, agencies and authorities through interdepartmental process. I believe that through this interdepartmental committee on antimoney laundering, we have made a significance progress in improving the effectiveness as well as the legislative changes FATF need to see for us to pass this exam and avoid grey listing.

The key areas of work of the interdepartmental committee include to development of the national risk assessment and strategy to combat financial crimes, improve the intensity of supervision of sectors vulnerable to facilitating financial crimes, demonstrating an improvements in investigating and prosecuting financial crimes, improving the availability of beneficial ownership information, enhancing our asset recovery mechanisms, implementation of targeted financial signs with terrorism activities and proliferation, financing as well as deepened co-operation domestically and internationally to bring those responsible for financial crimes and corruption to book.

I would like to conclude by thanking my Cabinet colleagues whose departments have been so instrumental in passing this Bill and reaching this milestone. I would also like to thank members of the SA Revenue Service, Sars, especially members and chair of the Standing Committee on Finance. We have worked diligently in conducting hearings, engage stakeholders and process the Bill before this House. Avoiding potential grey listing is not the responsibility of a single department or government, but a collective responsibility. I am glad to see that we are collectively working towards our shared goals. I thank you.

Ms P N ABRAHAM: Chair of Chairs, our Chairperson is on the way. On the 31st August 2022, the Standing Committee on Finance was briefed by the National Treasury and the Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC, on the general laws, anti-money laundering and combating of terrorism financing.

The GLAB 2022 is an omnibus Bill aimed at amending various pieces of legislation to address deficiencies related to combating money laundering and terrorism financing and bring South Africa into compliance with the global standards set by the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, the global regulator of anti-money laundering and counter terrorism financing. South

Africa, as the Minister has indicated is a member of FATF, which in 2019, conducted a peer review and produced a mutual evaluation report in October 2019.

On the country’s implementation of FATF, out of 40 recommendations of FATF, South Africa rated poorly and was found to have complied with only 20 of the 40 FATF standards
... [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick) Hon members, let’s listen to the hon Abraham.

Ms P N ABRAHAM: ... Okay. FATF also measured the effectiveness of the implementation of its standards by South Africa and found these had not yielded the intended outcomes on all the eleven immediate outcomes that it examines. These eleven outcomes can be described as follows. They are immediate outcome one, risk policy and co-ordination. Immediate outcome two, international co-operation. Immediate outcome three, which is supervision. Immediate outcome four, preventive measures. Immediate outcome five, legal persons and arrangements. Immediate outcome six, financial intelligence on money laundering, and terrorism financing. Immediate outcome seven, money laundering investigations. Immediate outcome

eight, confiscation. Immediate outcome nine, terrorism financing, investigations and prosecutions, outcome ten, terrorism financing, preventive measures, and financial sanctions and outcome eleven, proliferation, financing sanctions.

As a result of these findings by the Economic and Monetary Review, EMR 2019, South Africa was placed under International Co-operation Review Group observation for a period of a year. This observation ended in October 2022, where South Africa submitted reports on technical compliance and effectiveness outcomes. This gave South Africa a chance to rectify the deficiencies identified during the peer review process.

In February 2023, South Africa’s performance in rectifying its deficiencies will be considered at the FATF plenary meeting, whereby FATF will decide whether to pay South Africa on a grey list of countries that need continued monitoring and observation or not. During a briefing and deliberations by the committee, the National Treasury and FIC assured that significant progress was being made in addressing the South Africa’s technical compliance issues raised by FATF in the 2019 mutual evaluation report, MER. They explained that technical compliance basically refers to the adequacy of the

country’s anti-money laundering and counter financing of terrorism, AML and CFT, laws and regulatory framework.

Technical compliance deficiencies mean that the country must amend its laws or introduce new provisions so that the country’s legal and regulatory framework complies with FATF Standards. The National Treasury and FIC, however, stated that, while it would seem easy to rectify the technical compliance deficiencies, achieving the eleven effectiveness measures would be difficult as they are dependent on the actions of many other role players such as police, the Asset Forfeiture Unit, AFU, and the prosecution authorities, not the National Treasury and FIC alone.

Chair of Chairs, in terms of public participation the committee was briefed on the Bill by the National Treasury and the FIC on 31 August 2022, and held public hearings on 11 October 2022. The comment period was subsequently unanimously extended by the committee to 25 October 2022. Following from most commentators raising concerns about the short period that was allowed for the public to comment on the Bill.

A combined total of 59 public submissions were received during the public participation process. The National Treasury

requested the Presidency to exempt the Draft Bill from the application of Screening, Identification, Assessment and Support, SIAS, due to agency to address some of the deficiencies to avoid grey listing by the FATF. Because such grey listing may result in the financial institutions abroad limiting transactions with South Africa and its financial institutions. Following this request and the submission of the completed SIAS significant test template, the Presidency on 26 July 2022, exempted the application of the SIAS to the Draft Bill.

On the committee observations and recommendations, the committee notes the interest by the public in the Bill. This is shown in the number of comments received from the public. The committee notes that the Bill was processed under tight deadlines, especially with threats of South Africa facing grey listing by FATF. The committee has previously made it clear that our country cannot afford a grey listing by FATF, as that might have a negative impact on the trade and economy.

Although grey listing by FATF does not necessarily mean that countries must not deal with a particular country, the mere naming and shaming exercise by FATF could lead to the severe

and adverse economic consequences for trade and transactions with other countries.

As the Minister observed in his letter to the committee dated 03 November 2022, however, the committee believes that the legislation of this nature cannot be pushed through without adequate public participation. The committee believes that a socio-economic impact assessment study should have been conducted to evaluate the costs and benefits of the changes proposed by the Bill. The committee however, does not encourage the processing of legislation in this fashion, but understands the urgency of preventing South Africa from being grey listed by FATF by February 2023.

The committee will also monitor closely the implementation of this Bill through regular briefings by the National Treasury and the FIC and other related parties. The committee notes the general concerns raised by religious organizations and persons and general non-profit organisation, NPO, community to the onerous provisions of this Bill. House Chair, I move for the adoption of this report.

Xitsonga: Ndza khensa.

Dr D T GEORGE: Hon House Chairperson, South Africa is not helping to combat the global problem of money laundering, terrorist financing and the financing of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. The Financial Action Task Force, FATF, established international standards for measures that countries should have in place within their criminal justice and financial regulatory systems. A country that is not compliant is grey listed and considered a risk to the global financial system.

After its visit in 2019, FATF reported that understanding of terrorist financing was underdeveloped and risks were not being adequately addressed; that state capture had generated substantial corruption proceeds and undermined key agencies with roles to combat such activity, that law enforcement agencies lack the skills and resources to proactively investigate ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon George sorry, will you just mute the Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC? It seems that her microphone is on. Please continue, hon member.

Dr D T GEORGE: ... that detecting undeclared cross border movement of cash needed improving and implementing United

Nations Security Council resolutions for terrorist financing had not occurred since 2017. South Africa failed in 20 of the
40 FATF recommendations in terms of technical compliance and failed in all eleven effectiveness measures.

Government did nothing. Most likely because the hopelessly corrupt administration is guilty of the crimes that FATF seeks to fight, money laundering in particular. The President himself appears to have moved an enormous amount of cash illicitly across the border and it is well known that corrupt activity has drained billions from the public financial system. Intellidex Research places the probability of a FATF grey listing in February at 85%. They predict an immediate increase in the cost of international trade and cost to South African banks in managing international banking relationships and relationships with global payment systems providers.

Foreign counterparts may opt to reduce their compliance costs by terminating relationships with South African clients and not entering into new relationships. Grey listing will generate negative sentiment and ultimately result in a reduced appetite for business relationships with South African associates. Other grey listed countries include Albania, Haiti, Myanmar, Pakistan, South Sudan, Syria and Yemen.

Intellidex estimates that between one and three percent of GDP will be lost from higher costs, depending on how South Africa’s progress in addressing FATF concerns is perceived and how quickly we can exit the grey list.

When government eventually woke up to the reality of grey listing, it scrambled to amend various laws and that Bill is on the table before us. We support amendments that require the identification of beneficial owners and trustees, identify politically influential persons, strengthen the Financial Intelligence Centre and enforce resolutions of the United Nations Security Council regarding sanctions. We do not support an amendment to the Nonprofit Organisations Act that requires the registration of nonprofit organisations that receive money from or send money to foreign sources.

Government does not value civil society organisations and has long wanted to control their activities. The location of a Nonprofit Organisations Directorate within the Department of Social Development to register these organisations is unworkable, considering that this dysfunctional department cannot even deliver on its current mandate to pay social grants to vulnerable South Africans. The impact on relief and religious organisations has not been properly considered.

Nobody wants a grey listing. The consequences for our already battered economy will be significant. We cannot, however, be blackmailed into legislation that is unworkable. There was more than enough time for legislation to be sensibly amended. That time was wasted and here we are on the eve of a grey listing with legislation we cannot support. There is no guarantee that passing this legislation will be enough to satisfy FATF.

The fundamental problem lies with the prosecution of perpetrators of these financial crimes and no amount of legislation can fix systemic corruption or generate political will to act. If we are grey listed, this will be yet another failure of an incapable state ignoring the growing cost of living crisis where 81% of households cannot put enough food on their tables. The ANC-led government is getting in the way of South Africa’s economic growth and prosperity at the expense of the poorest members of our society. In 2024, the people will let you know how they feel about it. We do not support this Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M N PAULSEN: House Chair, South Africa has been a hub of international money laundering and terrorism financing for many years. Government did not understand the complexities of

elicit financial flows, proliferation and profit shifting. It became clear that some in government had not even heard of the phenomenon when the EFF raised the matter during the state of the nation address, Sona debate in 2014. When the EFF made its submission to the Davis Tax Commission in 2016, we presented evidence from credible sources to demonstrate that South Africa and the African continent were losing billions of Dollars in revenues through illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting.

Africa alone losses more than R 750 billion every year, South Africa losses under R90 billion every year. That is enough to fund free decolonised education. We know that those in the benches of the governing party are not interested in fixing the crisis because they are part of the problem. They know that the millions of Dollars found under the mattresses and sofas of the President’s farm are part and parcel of the illicit financial flows.

The President of the country is involved in illicit financial flows. There are Dollars stolen from his farm that SA Revenue Service, Sars and the SA Reserve Bank are not aware of. These are the Dollars that are in the country. House Chairperson, if the basis of the Bill is that we must tighten the anti-money

laundering and combating terrorism financing laws because we are now part of the IMF, the Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group and the Financial Action Task Force, it is extremely misguided.

The reality is that we are not going to resolve money laundering and the financing of terrorism unless we deal decisively with the illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting. We had to first admit that almost all companies in all sectors are involved in illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting. Some people used to think that this was only happening in the mining sector. It is happening in all sectors, ie, agriculture, telecommunications, construction and is even facilitated by the financial sector. They even advertise it on the website. The SA Reserve Bank has failed to build capacity despite evidence since 2014. People are able to bring Dollars and deliver them to Phala Phala in trucks without their knowledge. The SA Revenue Service has spent the last five years dealing with cosmetic challenges spending payments of reparations to members of the Rogue Unit, the financial intelligence centre operating like some unit in Treasury and is not accessible to the public or even members of the public sector.

We have written to the Financial Intelligence Centre on numerous occasions to report matters and of course request investigations but our correspondence is ignored. When the investigations are reported to the police, there is no prosecution. The amendment in the Bill ignores the elephant in the room. We need decisive and coherent legislation, starting with legislation to deal harshly with illicit financial flows. We still need a central agency that co-ordinates Sars, the SA Reserve Bank, FIC and the Hawks with independent administration.

At some point, we must pass legislation to establish a co- ordinated body. We need legislation that put harsh penalties in place for multinational companies that engage in base erosion and profit shifting and thus must be treated as a crime. We must expropriate these companies without compensation. More fundamentally, we must change the legislation to clearly demonstrate where taxpayer money ends and where the criminality of multinational companies starts.

We will not resolve problems of money laundering and terrorism financing which remains a subarea of broader illicit financial flows activities which clearly is the prevention of combating the corruption activities is failing to deal with. In closing

Chairperson, we maintain that the Presidency must institute a judicial commission of inquiry in terms of section 84 of the Constitution to look specifically into the illicit financial flows since 1994. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Sihlalo Ohloniphekile, thina njengeNingizimu Afrika siyaziqhenya ngokuba ngelinye lamazwe anoMthethosisekelo ohlonishwa umhlaba wonke kodwa lo Mthethosisekelo ohlonishwa kangaka unomthelela ongakanani ekushintseni izimpilo zabantu umbuzo omkhulu okufanele sizibuze wona sonke.

Sinemitheshwana futhi yonke emihle nezinqumo zikaHulumeni ezinhle kodwa ukuthi ziyalandelelwa kuze kube sekugcineni udaba lolo futhi eliwumbuzo omkhulu. Izwe lethu like lashayiwa yizembe elikhulu izikhathi eziningi liphoswa kwavobe abakala umnotho wamazwe omhlaba. Phakathi kwezinye zezizathu kwaba ukwehluleka kwethu njengezwe ukuyibophezela kulokhu esasivumelene ngakho nokugcina imitheshwana yethu esiyishayayo.

Ngendlela ... [Akuzwakali.] ... namhlanje, lo mbiko wekomidi ngoMthethosivivinywa okuhloswe ngawo ukulwisana

nokuthutsheleziswa kwezinkece nophinde futhi ulwisane nomsebenzi wobuphekula zikhuni ungobaluleke kakhulu ukuthi siwuphothule nanjengoba izwe lethu lilengelwa yizembe futhi lokuba lehliswe libekwe endaweni ebucayi.

Ngakhoke kumqoka empini yethu ebhekiswe ezenzweni zobuphekula zikhuni kanye nasezenzweni zokushushunjiswa kwezinkece siqaphele ukuthi yonke imitheshwana esiyishayayo ayisinikezi imiphumela esingayihlosile ikakhulukazi labo abangeyona ingozi nabababuthaka.

Futhi kufanele ukuba sikhumbule ukuthi yonke imitheshwana esiyishayayo ayihlukumezi labo abahwebayo ikakhulukazi labo abangaphandle kwezinkambiso ezihlelekile. Iqiniso ngelithi baningi abantu bakithi abazithola beyizisulu besolwa ngezinye zezinhlaka njengamabhange engathi bangabantu abayingxenye yobuphekula zikhuni.

Uma beya nje ngasemabhange babuzwa imibuzo ebehlisa izithunzi abanye kuze kuvalwe ama-akhawunti abo ngoba nje besolwa ungayazi nendlela efaneleyo yokwenza lokho. Kanti kolunye uhlangothi imibuzo efanayo ayiphoswa kulabo abayizizathu zokuthubelezisa izimali kanye nabazimbadakanya ngqo ezindabeni zobuphekula zikhuni. Ngakhoke, Sihlalo, siyavumelana nombiko

othinta ukuthi siyazazi izindawo ekufanele ziqashwe ngamehlo okhozi nokufanele sibuke kuzo njengezwe kodwa iqiniso lithi uma senza lokhu siqaphelisise sihambe ngonyawo lonwabu.

Kuyishwa, Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ukuthi kube nezinsolo ezimbi zalolu hlobo esihlangana nazo ezibhekiswe kwabantu abamqoka nabakhulu esisaba nokubabiza ngamagama abayingxenye yaleNdlu abathenjwe yizwe ukuba balwisane nezehlakalo ezifuze lezi.
Lokhu kwehlisa amandla nomdlandla kulabo abayingxenye yentando enhle bese ukuthi yonke imizamo esiyenzayo ibengathi ihlose ukuqondiswa abathile hhayi abathile.

Ukuze, Sihlalo, silwisane nale nkinga kudingeka ukuthi sibeqotho futhi sithembeke kukho konke esikwenzayo. Uma nxa kutholakala abambandakanyekayo ezenzweni kwezenkohlakalo, izenzo zobuphekula zikhuni, bashushiswe baphenywe abatholakala benamacala babekwe endaweni efanele. Ngakhoke iqembu lentando yenhlabathi i-IFP, iyawuseka lo mbiko. Ngiyathokoza.

Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chairperson, we can all agree that greylisting will have severe and adverse economic consequences for trade and transactions with other countries, as the Minister pointed out. This will further be detrimental to investor confidence and will cause further economic hardships.

As the hon Abrahams put it, South Africa cannot afford being greylisted. However, this cannot mean that it is justified to make bad laws and to rush a legislative process just to avoid greylisting. There are many provisions in this Bill which will have detrimental consequences and unforeseen consequences, and that have not been adequately considered.

The executive, as per usual, was fast asleep and then they were shocked at the possibility of being greylisted. As per usual, shocked. Then they scrambled to get this Bill drafted. The executive, as per usual, steamrolled the process, and undermined the legislative process and the legislature, once again regarding this Parliament as a rubber stamp.

The legislation is rushed, ill-considered and will have unintended detrimental consequences, especially for nongovernmental organisations, NGOs. And, who will suffer the most? It’s the poor. So, the poor will suffer the most while the fat-cat friends of the ANC will continue to launder money. It doesn’t mean what legislation is in place. This government cannot police it. This government cannot enact it. This government fails. You have the best legislation on municipal level. It’s the best in the world. What happens? What is the worst off in South Africa? It’s municipalities. Why? Is it the

failure of the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA? No. It’s failure by the ANC. Once again, the fat cats will get richer whilst the poor will suffer.

Those who try to comply with legislation ... you will make it impossible to do business and serve the people. The NGOs will suffer and businesses will suffer because of these compliance matters that have not been fully considered. And then, there is no policing thereof.


Die agb George is reg. Implementering is die grootste probleem in Suid-Afrika. Die polisiëring van wetgewing is die probleem. U weet wat, dan skree u hier en gaan te kere oor dit is dit en dit is dat. Die feit van die saak is, u faal die mense daar buite want u faal ... [Onhoorbaar.]

Mnr H G APRIL: Op ’n punt van orde, Voorsitter. Ek wil net weet of dit parlementêr is dat hierdie agb man vir ons die hele tyd vingers wys wanneer hy praat?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please address the Chairperson, hon member. Please continue.


Mnr W W WESSELS: As die handskoen pas trek hom aan. Die feit van die saak is dat die probleem hier is dat u nie in belang van die mense of in belang van die grondwetlike demokrasie optree nie. Die Zondo-kommissie wys duidelik die mislukkings van die ANC meerderheid in hierdie Huis. Hoeveel wetgewing word in hierdie Huis deur gestoomrol en dan word dit suksesvol in die Konstitusionele Hof verslaan? U doen nou weer dieselfde. U wil nie na die opposisie luister nie. Hierdie wetgewing gaan weereens in die Konstitusionele Hof draai maar u wil nie luister nie. U wil nie luister dat hierdie Grondwet van ons waarop u trots is, sê ’n skeiding van magte en respek vir die wetgewing. Wat doen die Adjunkpresident verlede week? Hy sê Ministers mag maar nie hier wees nie want dit bots met die Kabinet. U weet wat? U is besig om die mense te misluk want u neem nie hierdie Parlement ernstig op nie en hierdie wet is ’n bewys daarvan. Ek dank u.


Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP appreciates the hugely negative impact that greylisting will have on financial institutions in the country and indeed businesses and the economy as a whole. Business leadership estimated the impact on the country’s gross domestic product, GDP, at anywhere

between 1% to 3% and this in an environment of constrained economic growth which the country can ill afford.

However, the ACDP must express its displeasure at the haste with which this Bill had to be dealt with, considering its far-reaching implications, particularly for the nonprofit organisation, NPO, sector.

We also expressed our deep concerns that the Bill as initially drafted, hon Minister, would require every NPO from sewing clubs to knitting clubs to choirs or churches ... faith-based organisations, to register with the Department of Social Development. We expressed our doubts as to whether Social Development would cope as it is estimated that there are approximately 150 000 NPOs.

We appreciate and are grateful that National Treasury has since amended the Bill to require only those NPOs, including churches which make donations outside the country or provide humanitarian, charitable, religious, educational or cultural services beyond the country’s borders ... those NPOs will need to register.

However, hon Minister, our concern is still that every church, every small church, that sends a missionary, will now be compelled to register with the department, irrespective of whether they are already registered as a nonprofit company with the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, CIPC, with the SA Revenue Service, Sars, as a public benefit organisation or with the Master’s Office as a charitable trust.

Hon Minister, it’s very careful to read footnote to paragraph 6(b)(1) of the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, recommendations eight. It states that specific licencing or registration requirements for counterterrorism financing is unnecessary for NPOs that are already registered with tax authorities and are already monitored. That is why the ACDP raised this issue during our discussions and said, is it not sufficient if an NPO is already registered? There were argumenta that it is not sufficient, as one would want to look at the constitutions of the various organisations.

Now, we hold severe objections at this stage. We do believe that there are other methods of dealing with this issue, particularly given the role that civil society plays in

society. These administrative burdens will severely impact religious organisations and civil society across the board.

We do believe that a more practical approach will be to look at this issue and to look at, at risk NPOs. Register those which could be narrowly defined as those that provide money or services to specific entities as identified by the UN Security Council as per section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities, Pocdatara, Act. Minister, have a look at that. This is possibly the answer. Regrettably, the ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson apologies, I just had problems with my system. Let me start off by my raising concerns about this particular Bill. Chairperson let me start off by saying, when we talk about terrorism, where does terrorism come from? Why are we today faced with this Bill? What has given rise to this?

In my understanding, you get two types of terrorism. First of all, it is those states that create terrorism or terrorists, who fund them, who take away what does not belong to you, who want what does not belong to you, create chaos and mayhem. On

the other hand, you have terrorists that are created, they are not born terrorists. They want to protect their own rights that have been violated by other states and others. So this is where it actually comes from.

I note that this was done in extreme hurry and I wish we could apply this on many other Bills that we need to do.
Chairperson, illicit financial flows in this country has been going on for decades, particularly big businesses or multinationals. We know through the offshore businesses that they have, how they take money out of this country, but very little or nothing seems to have been done about that.

Now Chairperson, look at the impact that this is going to have. I think in my understanding this is another measure that has been put in place to control institutions, organisations, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, non-profit making organisations, NPOs and civil society organisations. Look at the measures that are going to be put and the impact on these NGOs and NPOs. So, really we think that there is something untoward.

Look at the pressure that comes from the international community. These are the people who are threatening us with

greylisting should we not be able to meet the deadlines. That put us under tremendous pressure to be able to meet the deadlines that we are talking about. They talk about how it is going to affect the economy, how it will affect your gross domestic product, GDP. But all this Chairperson is to put control measures to remote control us all over the world. The NFP will not support this. We do not believe that, this is the best interest particularly of many institutions that are going to suffer the consequences thereof. Thank you very much.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon Chair, let me congratulate Qatar for an amazing start to the Soccer World Cup. We are so proud that we saw the 2010 soccer ball, with South Africa’s name on it.
The General Laws Anti-Money-Laundering and Combating Terrorism Financial Bill shames freedom fighters like President Mandela, Oliver Tambo, Chief Albert Luthuli, Robert Sobukwe and Imam Abdullah Haron.

When I met the former Speaker of the Austrian Parliament, he told me about a bag of money that he gave to President Mandela. Nothing is done about illicit financial flows and we have heard the EFF explain it very well. Because of ... [Inaudible] ... to get our freedom, nearly every mining company steal money from our GDP and the poor. Up to now,

Parliament does not make the cut to reduce illicit financial flows, IFF which is ... [Inaudible] ... to billions and can pay for the diesel we need now.

The Minister jumps to serve the IFF, the World Bank the West and America. I think when he looks at this Bill, he is asking them how high must I jump. Other Ministers must follow the example of the Minister of Public Enterprises, which earlier on indicated that he does not jump. Rather Colonel Muammar Gaddafi never listen to the West in Libya’s early years. He was never worried about greylisting. So, like I said, South Africa jumps.

Al Jamah-ah asks, who are terrorists? Is it not the several Western countries that invade and kill billions of people? This Bill is a ja baas (yes boss) nee bass (no boss) Bill. Al Jamah-ah will not support this Bill. The chairperson of the portfolio committee must not apologise to NGOs; she must listen to them. We are very concerned like the ACDP raised that, this Bill will dilute the freedoms that we have fought so hard for. Like I said earlier on, we reject this Bill.
Thank you very much, hon Chair.

Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Chair, Rusesabagina was correct when he said, the dancers have changed but the music remains the same. He said it because although the French oppressors had given the ruling power back to Rwandans, those who took power went to oppress people and terrorise them for more than 28 years.
South Africa continues to experience the same form of music, terrorism, as the people of Rwanda did.

New dancers here in South Africa, who chose to be called revolutionaries and democrats are enjoying the apartheid music. Apartheid musicians emerged with the music of terrorism to which they danced as they killed people using chains, bullets and deaths. Terrorism by today’s government is worse. Today’s dancers use money-laundering and corruption, which is a form of terrorism. Genuine companies are denied tenders unless they commit to pay or give the terrorists kickbacks.
Public servants are not given a living wage. That is why they are out there for example, on strike and they must be paid.
The so-called cadre deployment to promote corruption and open stealing of public money is continuing because of this the ANC government. Public procurement systems, monitoring systems that were tabled and passed by this Parliament are ignored.

Therefore, for as long as this ANC government is there, we are not going anywhere dear people of South Africa. Therefore, we must not support this. Thank you very much.

Mr A N SARUPEN: Thank you very much House Chair. The United Nations Security Council in July this year raised the alarm that, South Africa had become a significant site for facilitating financial transfers to terrorist organisations, including the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, known as ISIL and more colloquial as ISIS.

In March this year, the United States placed sanctions on four people in South Africa, for supporting and financing terrorist activities across the continent. One of these persons was sanctioned for raising funds for kidnapping and extortion. He could never face criminal charges domestically, because the prosecuting authority messed up the file. Now, these activities are happening not because of lapses in our existing system, but because the government refuses to acknowledge that it is happening.

In February this year, the Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC reported to this Parliament that, the government’s failure to even acknowledge that terrorist financing is happening,

prevents them from taking action. To quote the FIC, their exact words are:

This indirectly impacts on their ability to investigate and prosecute potential terrorist financing, including to identify financing networks and other financing activities. South Africa has failed to demonstrate that it is effectively identifying the specific roles played by terrorist finances.

It is therefore unsurprising that we are facing potential greylisting by the Financial Action Task Force, because since 2017, this government has failed to implement United Nations Security Council resolutions to deal with terrorist financing. Now, this Parliament is scrambling and ... [Inaudible] ... to deal with rush omnibus legislation to fix it. Because the proverbial government’s ostrich has finally pulled its head out of the sand to see that a bullet train is about to hit.
The economic consequences of greylisting will be dire.

There are various provisions in the omnibus legislation that are essential, but unfortunately, the government has decided to try to use this legislation as a backdoor to register and eventually control and NPOs. This has been an ideological goal

of the ANC in this Parliament since 1997, when such a measure was first introduced and had to be dropped. The governments couldn’t get it right then. So they're taking the opportunity to target the NPO sector now, rather than deal with the actual prices.

So, this legislation is rushed because the government has wasted years. It doesn’t necessarily address old core issues as to why South Africa is a safe haven for terrorist financing. The real problem sits with the prosecution of persons engaged in these activities and the government fails to do so because of ineptitude and corruption. You cannot legislate competence into being. The DA cannot be blackmailed into accepting half measures on this very serious matter. So, we will not support this legislation. Thank you House Chair.

Mr I K MOROLONG: House Chair, the ANC’s policy ... building an equitable global order, of working towards greater progress and development, is at the same time contested by specific risks and threats to our national interest.

Threats to country’s economic development are just not narrowly located in the lack of economic growth and development. But rather these threats are linked to specific

risks that have generated by global networks and syndicates. Consciously seeking to extract from our economy that is not due to them, through corrupt and nefarious methods.

Few in this debate will have the integrity to acknowledge that it was precisely ANC policy that brought about reorientation in the financial sector in response to the identify and perceived threats which are embedded in our financial sector, our propery sector and broader society where France become conduits for money laundering and financing of terrorism.

Grey listing is an economic sanction that the Financial Action Task Force applies on its members, when it believes a member country is not adhering to specific standards. Like all economic sanctions, it is undesirable raises the risk profile of the country has a negative effect on investment, makes more expensive to raise international capital and higher the cost that are exerted on to the financial sector. Limiting transactions in the financial sector, and for companies or in extreme circumstances financial institutions are bought serving or limiting transactions within South African financial institutions.

The cost of all these get past onto consumers in an incremental way, contributing to the raise in the cost of living. The combating of money laundering and terrorism financing is covered by such law, codes and agreements. The global standards set by the Financial Action Task Force.

It is common course that the 2019 Mutual Evaluation Report found that of 40 standards against which money laundering and terrorism financing can be measured. South Africa was found to have complied with only 20.

Whilst this narrative that is been driven by many in the opposition parties and some in business, that we are going to be grey listed. Their actual desire is that we don’t get grey listed. But this process is a useful occasion to attack the ANC-led government.

So, let us talk about the counter narrative. The technical compliance refers to the adequacy of the country’s laws and regulatory framework. Of the 20 standards, we have achieved nine of these so far. Whilst achieving the 11 effective measures will be difficult as they are depended on the actions of many other players.

South Africa submitted reports on the technical compliance and effectiveness outcomes already. And in January discussion with the Financial Action Task Force will take place on progress around the 20 standards.

Clearly, what the task force is looking for, is the spirit and intention of addressing the required standards and with omnimous amendment Bill before us today, all of the other areas will be in law covered. While the practice to effectively deal with a standard is a process.

The binary of this debate is grey listing or no grey listing. It is not a simplistic as that each outstanding standard is accessed in terms of how much progress has been made and where due cause can be shown that there’s no progress. Even if there’s no full compliance, this does not mean automatic lead to grey listing, but options can be negotiated towards full compliance.

Technical compliance deficiencies mean that the country must amend its laws or introduce new provision so that the country’s legal and regulatory framework complies with the Financial Action Task Force standards and this is what we have done with General Laws Amendment Bill.

The General Laws Amendment Bill is an omnimous Bill aimed at amending five pieces of legislation to address deficiencies relating to combating money laundering and terrorism financing and bring South Africa into compliance with global standards.

A six pieces of legislation, Protection Constitutional Democracy Amendment Bill is currently before the Portfolio Committee on Police.

We have certainly dealt with concerns that have raised during the public participation process, these include: getting the rational of Cabinet to provide the National Treasury, exemption from socioeconomic impact assessment based on urgency.

On the Nonprofit Organization Act, many submissions opposed the compulsory and blanket requirement for all nonprofit organizations to register. And we have amended the Bill to focus on the registration of a limited subset on NPOs that make donations or provide services beyond South Africa’s borders where they could potentially be used to finance terrorism.

With respect to general concerns raised by religious organizations and persons and the general NPO community. Their concerns have been addressed through the amendment as contained the b version of the Bill, particularly to the clause which provides for registration requirements for NPOs.

With respect to the Trust Act, the main concern was beneficial ownership with most NPOs expressing reservation that NPOs will struggle to implement and access beneficial ownership registers and information. As this may also require technical systems enhancements.

We are satisfied with the National Treasury and the financial intelligence sectors undertakings to assist accountable institutions with support before any enforcement action is taking noncompliance and that these new obligations cover their concern. The principle is to be compliant, ask for assistance when you are struggling.

On the matter of the Department of Social Development, theirs is to ensure registration of NPOs and not to play oversight over money flows. That province resides with the finance intelligence sector SA Revenue Service, SARS and National Treasury.

Few in this debate will acknowledge that it was indeed the ANC-led government which took a conscious decision, informed by policy to join the Financial Action Task Force, the global regulatory of money laundering and counter terrorism financing. We did this, we did this hon members, we did this to protect the country and its citizens and the economic from global syndicates who are using France to launder money and finance terrorism. The ANC welcomes and support the General
Laws Amendment Bill and the committee amendments. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chairperson, I think there’s no attempt on our part to steamroll the process other the conditions of our choosing, which have necessitated the speed with which we pass this legislation.

You will recall that in October last year when this finding was made by evaluation report. Then we had to sit down and identified the different pieces of legislation that had to be amended, that on its own was a process. Having done that we had to negotiate with our colleagues, you can see we amending five pieces of legislations belonging to different departments. To come to a conclusion with those, it has taken us time.

The second point is, you will know that much as Mister said, the United State, US, Treasury informed us of terrorism funding in the country. They have reported that, identified others last month. That in itself shows the extend of the problem, which needs to be attended.

Now, to the extent that there are problems which they should be targeted institutions and so on, the nongovernmental organization, NGO thing. It’s something ... [Inaudible.] ... we can discuss.

In the fundamental point we must agree upon, is that this thing is not about the political party interest, not at all. This is about the interest of South Africa, generally, it’s a national interest which all of us across political parties must take that into account.

That what we are defending with this legislation is interest of South Africa not interest of any party. The impact of grey listing is not going to be saving any other body other than, it is going to impact on South Africa as a whole.

In this regard we will appeal to our colleagues to take point into account. That what we dealing with here is national

interest and therefore in case of national interest we must bury our political differences and defend the country. I thank you House Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

Second Reading debate – General Laws (Anti-Money Laundering and Combating Terrorism Financing)

Agreed to.


Ms G P MAREKWA: Hon House Chair, the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, in fulfilling its mandate, identified and recommended suitable candidates to fill vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality, the CGE, as per the Commission for Gender Equality Act 39 of 1996, reports as follows.

The portfolio committee wishes to clarify certain matters contained in its previous Report, dated 26 October 2022, which

was adopted by the National Assembly on 1 November 2022. The first category commissioners have to fill the unexpired portion of part-time commissioners; and the other category is for full-term commissioners, comprising a mixture of full-time and part-time commissioners.

For the unexpired portion of office term, the committee recommended the following persons: Mr Bongani Glanton Ngomane; Ms Limbal Parashni Prabhashni; Ms Subraya Naidoo; Miss Sarah Charity Mukwevho and Ms Fundiswa Barbara Skweyiya-Gushu. The committee recommends that the President of the Republic immediately appoints two part-time commissioners from the above list of candidates, as members of the commission, to complete the unexpired terms of office, which had been in existence since February and April 2022, respectively. The unexpected portion refers to the remainder of the term of office in which the vacancies occurred, which run up to 31 July 2024.

For the full-term, the committee recommended the following persons: Adv Olaf Nthabiseng Sepanya-Mogale; Adv Sthando Gumede; Ms Leonasia Lee-Anne Van der Merwe; Ms Lindiwe Khonjelwayo; Ms Bernadine Bhara, as a person with disability; and Ms Mulalo Nematahane. The committee further recommends

that the President appoints two candidates on a full-time basis and the other two candidates on part-time basis for the vacancies that occurred from 31 October 2022.

Furthermore, taking into consideration that the former commissioner, Adv Olaf Nthabiseng Sepanya-Mogale – my apologies - served as a part-time commissioner for the commission. The committee then recommends that Adv Sepanya- Mogale be appointed as a full-time commissioner so as to ensure continuity and the preservation of institutional memory. The committee further recommends that Adv Sepanya- Mogale be considered for the position of the chairperson for the commission. The report to be considered. I thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the House adopts this Report as tabled. Thank you.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

No objections.

Report agreed to.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Modulasetulo, ke tsitsinya hore Ntlo ena e amohele tlaleho ena. Ke a leboha

Declarations of Votes:

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you, Chairperson. The GCIS had irregular expenditure of R4,6 million and there were people inside procuring services of over a million rand without inviting competitive bids. A perfect example of how cadre cronies scored big from this ANC-led government! Basically the GCIS, otherwise known as the government cheerleading sector, is there to make the government look good, even if it isn’t.

Its only job is to tell the world what the government wants it to know; and it costs a lot to make this government look good. We are talking about R1,3 billion a year. Then, we have the MDDA, with its massive underperformance of nearly R20 million, while overspent to the tune of R8,2 million; R24 million in revenue undercollection; and R50 million in irregular

expenditure. One has to question the reason for paying the board at this entity nearly a million rand.

The Auditor-General, AG, is scathing, with the financial statements wrongly reported; no proper record keeping; no regular; and complete financial and performance reports. However, the elephant in the room was the fact that the CFO resigned rather hurriedly after the AG found his appointment was irregular - an appointment that cost over R6 million! It is a complete dog’s breakfast.

They acknowledge that some community media projects will never be able to self-sustain. Projects that rely on constant funding funnelled through the state could and should be considered state medium. Some even rent premises in government buildings. There are reports of radio stations that the pay for which do not actually broadcast. Yet, their spending rose by 63,5% over five years!

Eight hundred and fifty-thousand copies of their state-owned newspaper are handed out in obvious competition with the very community print media they are supposed to be supporting.
Don’t forget: The African News Agency was paid R20 million by the State Security Agency to carry positive stories about the

government! Wheels within political wheels that no taxpayer should ever have to foot the bills for! The DA will not support this Report.

Ms N TAFENI: Thank you, Chairperson. The EFF rejected the Budgetary Review and the Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications. The Government Communications Information System is supposed to be a crucial role player in communicating government policy and programs; and it should be a tool through which the viewers or the citizen relate back to those who lead the state.

The importance of this role is made ever so crucial today. Citizens are in the dark, both in literal and figuratively, on this mess that Eskom has become. We hear disjointed communication on lack of maintenance and on depletion of diesel reserves, which risk plunging the country into longer periods of darkness. However, the GCIS is nowhere to be found, leaving this key component of government communications to Eskom and to Mr Gordhan, who have proven to be anything but factional in their approach to the energy crisis in this country.

Nothing has shown just how disconnected the state is from the citizen as the inability to communicate in an efficient manner the state’s response to this Eskom crisis. We have often argued here that a medium such as the Vuk’uzenzele Newspaper could be used to communicate at a level far higher than it is currently used for.

It is still not reaching the most remote of rural areas; and still does not allow for an effective two-way communication between citizen and the state. The news must be a medium for ensuring that even citizens’ voices are heard and to ensure that government is able to respond directly to issues raised by its citizens. The less said about the MDDA, the better. The entity has simply been unable to despatch its role as far as the promotion of local media establishment is concerned. [Time expired. We reject this Report, as the EFF

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: The Portfolio Committee on Communication service considers the performance and submission to National Treasury for the mid-term. The committee was encouraged to find that both the GCIS, Government Communications and Information System and the MDDA, Media Development and Diversity Agency, received clean audits and met set targets.

The MDDA achieved the targets for 21 out of 22 output indicators included in its Annual Performance Plan of 2021/22.

The report highlights that one of the key targets not met was concerning research projects funded on ... [Inaudible.] ... impacting the community media sector. The MDDA and the service providers modify data collection and assign more human resource for this assignment to complete the project in time.

Chair, as the IFP we are concerned about approximately

R83 million that was spend on overhead post employees as the entity is spending a large portion of its budget paying employee costs and as a result, fewer projects are funded and community radio stations are neglected

It is reported that management did not prepare regular, accurate and complete financial reports supported by evidence and reliable information. This is something that the entity should pay more attention to and impound the Auditor-General’s recommendation.

The GCIS managed to keep the vacancy rate at 6,7% during the 2021 financial year and reduced the top management vacancy rate from 75% to 0% in 2021 financial year. This is an

encouraging step and we are also encouraged to find the department’s increased inclusive implementation and made national employment equity targets of 2% which they achieved at 3,16%.

Chair, we also made a presentation at senior management service level that was achieved at 56% which is encouraging. So, as the IFP we hope that the MDDA will finalise the appointment of the CFO, chief financial officer, as this is an important role in the entity. The IFP supports the report.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson this is a report about the GCIS and the MDDA and one could say this is government spin doctors.
According to the report, the department’s outreach programmes and activities in the words of the report allow the department to interact with the communities and often provide an early warning for any societal issues or discontent.

So, what happened with last year’s July riots? Why was there no early warning system, why were mixed messages shared but different Ministers and President Ramaphosa and was obviously a lapse there by GCIS? What is interesting is that the report states on the contrary that during the unfortunate July 2021 unrest, the GCIS was ramped up to restore a sense of calm and

demonstrate a responsive government that handled the situation and responded to the people’s needs.

If only President Ramaphosa himself said three weeks have passed since the country has experienced an orchestrated campaign and our security services were found wanting. The expert panel referred to violence never seen before, contestations in public space including between senior members of government and a sense of uncertainty and vulnerability against the citizens, anything but sense of calm.

Let us also have a look at the report relating to the 2021 local government elections where it says as a result of educating and informing people, millions of South Africans turned out to voting stations, yes they did but remember only
12 million people out of a possible 26 million people registered to vote voted and again a lapse.

Chairperson, I realise time is very limited, there are problems with the regression in terms of the audit with both the GCIS and the MDDA and regrettably the ACDP will not support this report. I thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, the NFP notes the BRRR, Budget Review and Recommendations Report, reports on the department of Portfolio Committee on Communications tabled here.

Chairperson, I think my predecessors or colleagues that have spoken are really unreasonable. Given the very difficult responsibility that the GCIS has to sell government to the people, to tell the people what a fantastic job government is doing and it is very difficult for them because honestly speaking there is nothing to sell. The infrastructure is crumbling, crime is at an all-time high, there are so many negative things in the country that the GCIS find themselves in a very difficult position trying to look between if they can find something positive that they can sell.

So, it seems we have to continue giving them budgets despite the performance being this low because they do not have an opportunity. There is no environment for them to be able to communicate to the people successes. They are so limited in any event.

Chairperson, the 99,7% of the budget that was spent on yielded

34 targets, you can see that we are very good when it comes to

spending budget, the only thing is that we do not achieve our targets.

Another problem that I think we must raise is that when we heard cabinet had sat and discussed issues of particular policy on cadre deployment, these appointments of Ministers and Members of Parliament as chairpersons of some of these committees as a favour because they belong to an organisation.

I think the time has come where we must put people that are fit for purpose and have the capacity and the integrity to be able to take us forward. The NFP will reluctantly support the report tabled here today.

Mr S M JAFTA: Chair, the Chapter 4 of the National Development Plan sees the ICT, Information and Communications Technology, as a critical enabler of economic activity in an increasingly network world. It further sees ecosystem of digital network, services application content and devices firmly integrated in the economic and social fabric as an important catalyst in connecting public administration and citizens.

The GCIS is one of government’s strategic role players in this ecosystem of digital networks services, application content

and devices. It draws its constitutional mandate in the Constitution which requires transparency to be fostered through the provision of timely, accessible and accurate information to the public.

Hon members, the GCIS performance indicators are a mixture of poor delivery on the one hand and excellence ... [Inaudible.]
... committee reports the mandate of having to deliver a coherent government messaging yet we know that there have been conflicting messages from government around Covid-19 messaging including communication on the exact terminology to describe the July unrest in KwaZulu-Natal.

For instance, we never got clarity from government on whether this looting was a particulate unrest or both. On the positive note, GCIS’s flagship publication, the Vukuzenzele newspaper is accessible and also accommodates citizens with sight complications.

Hon Chair, the Department of Communications and Digital Technology ... Chair, we support the report.

Mr L E MOLALA: Hon House Chair, the late former secretary general of the United Nation, Kofi Annan once said I quote:

“Knowledge is power, information is liberating, education is the primus of every society and every family.”

GCIS plays a vital role in empowering society with crucial government information. During the hike of Covid-19 pandemic, it was this department’s work that fostered great understanding about the virus and preventative measures we could take to protect ourselves and those around us.

It is in that service period that the ANC implored this department to carry out messaging and campaigns around the key issues of national importance such as GBVF, gender-based violence and femicide, ERRP, Economic Reconstruction Recovery Plan, crime, corruption, job creation service delivery interventions amongst other things.

Therefore, the ANC supports the allocation of R1,3 billion towards the content processing, insemination programme as well as further allocation of R375,4 million towards intergovernmental coordination and stakeholder management programmes which together accounts for 75% of the department’s budget over the medium term.

Not only will this budget allocation drive active citizenry but it will also help the department to conceptualise cohesive campaigns, develop communication strategies, insemination of information and stakeholder engagement.

Hon members, this provides the backdrop of the argument the ANC’s sees, that a portion of every department communication budget should be allocated to GCIS to enable it to better carry out its work.

In conclusion, while we commend the ongoing good work of the department and the MDDA, we would like to urge the department strengthen its internal SCM, supply chain management, controls and follow the Auditor-Generals’ advise to adhere to SCM principle and processes and have good review on SCM processes and a proper record to ensure that documents are easily accessible and available when requested. The ANC support the BRRR on Vote No 4 GCIS.

Report accordingly adopted.


There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Mr T W MHLONGO: Chairperson, South Africa is not participating in the soccer world cup as we speak today. It is shocking.

For the past eight years we’ve calling of soccer indaba but the Minister is deliberately misleading the committee and one of the things that we take, the Minister is afraid of Danny Jordaan and SA Football Association, SAFA.

The Minister has allowed the National Arts Council to continue to abuse public funds and court processes to achieve improper ending, utilising litigation against SA Roadies Association, SARA, and especially the President of SARA ubab’uNyathela [Mr Nyathela].

Chairperson, poverty has manifested in our artists in the sector because of National Arts Council, NAC, and its department and the entities.

Minister, can you please explain: Who delegated authority for them to shift R65 million to the Reserve Bank?

And tell us more exactly with this so-called R54 million project, which is a vanity project for uMzansi Orchestra. Under your watch they’ve misused R54 million, mismanagement and corruption. Now, the Special Investigative Unit, SIU, Hawks and Public Protector are investigating this

The department has failed to use R10,7 million to create job opportunities. National Arts Council cannot even fill critical vacancies, of chief executive officer, CEO, and others.

At the National Arts council there’s lack of leadership.

Chairperson, we have actors in Hollywood. Plus or minus R1,6 billion was underspent by the department.

Minister, it is the right time for you to sit down and you deserve the red card because you must resign. Our artists must come first. You deserve a red card. Hamba [go], Minister.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, whenever gestures of a situation that you find at First National Bank, FNB, Stadium takes place in the House, the House will be rowdy. So, I’d request that we avoid indications of what happens in such stadiums.

Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Chairperson, the Minister of the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, DSAC, has been busy for the past two years fighting battles within and without his department.

DSAC has been spending exorbitant amounts of monies on vanity projects while too many artists are still waiting to be saved from the poverty and depression.

DSAC continues to fail to address the historical imbalances in the provision of infrastructure for the promotion of arts and sports in our country.

Mamelodi residents are angry because the dilapidated falling structure of HM Pitje Stadium, which was built by the apartheid government, is a den for drug pushers and thugs who are terrorising the society.

The R21,5 million a year money-making machine for the few, through the creation of National Philharmonic Orchestra, is absurd, while the majority of poor artists have to share among themselves R2 million per year, if they are lucky.

Chairperson, it’s almost three decades into this so-called democracy, the indigenous and traditional spiritual beliefs of our people are still under heavy suppression. Energy centres that are considered holy and spiritual are not accessible to our people. Places like Motouleng Caves in the Free State have been closed off by racist whites such that our people must park several kilometres away and walk for hours to access these sacred places our forefathers have used. This department is quiet about that. It is busy fighting for the protection of the language of former oppressors and support heavy protection of statues and all symbols of colonialism to maintain them using taxpayers’ monies but cannot find it to protect these sacred places.

DSAC and its Minister have failed in their mandate. The EFF rejects this budgetary review and the recommendation report. Thank you.


Mev H DENNER: Huisvoorsitter, hierdie departement laat nie net daagliks ons kunstenaars en ander kreatiewes in die bedryf in die steek nie, maar ook ons sportlui. Die Minister van Sport, Kuns en Kultuur het gedurende sy 2019 begrotingsrede uitblinker downsindroom atlete as eregaste op die galery verwelkom en met hul prestasies gespog. Tog word hierdie atlete nou verhoed om aan internasionale kompetisies deel te neem en is selfs hul deelname aan die komende Paralimpiese Spele in 2024 in gedrang omdat lidmaatskap net eenvoudig nie betaal word nie. Die nasionale liggaam, die SA Sports Association for the Intellectually Impaired, Sasa-II, beskou hierdie atlete se lot en prestasies as gering en word die stryd om deelname te verseker al vir etlike jare gevoer, met geen poging of teken van die politieke wil van die departement se kant af om deelname van hierdie atlete te verseker nie.

Daar is vele kunstenaars wie steeds nie die ysere greep wat op hul inkomste en lewensmiddele deur die COVID-19 pandemie geplaas is, kan afskud nie. Hierdie departement het ook geensins bygedra in daardie stryd nie.

Plaaslike teaters en ander infrastruktuur is in ’n jammerlike toestand, weereens met geen tekens van verbetering of die politieke wil om hierdie infrastruktuur om die alewige belofte

van sosiale kohesie of nasiebou gestand te doen nie. Dit is alles net lippediens.

Die bewaring van ons kultuurskatte en erfenis is nog ’n bewys dat hierdie departement misluk. Erfenisgebiede word jammerlik verwaarloos. Die agteruitgang en die minagting van die mense van Suid-Afrika se erfenis is skandelik en weereens sit die party net eenvoudig agteroor. Fondse gaan daagliks verlore, soos met die omstrede Mzanzi-orkes saga en mislukte entiteite soos die Performing Arts Centre of the Free State, Pacofs, in die Vrystaat word bloot toegelaat om verder uit te gaan.

Geen regdenkende, logiese, patriotiese Suid-Afrikaner kan hierdie verslag ondersteun nie. Alvorens hierdie departement nie erns maak met die taak wat hom opgelê is nie, sal dit net so nutteloos soos sy begrotingsoorsigverslag wees. Ek dank u.

Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chairperson, in considering this report the ACDP asserts that this is yet another department in need of an overhaul.

The department did not escape the Auditor-General’s scrutiny, who stated that effective and appropriate steps were not taken to prevent irregular expenditure of some R59,7 million caused

as a result of non-compliance with Division of Revenue Act, DORA.

The Auditor-General also found a lack of consequence management as investigations were not conducted into the majority of allegations of financial misconduct committed by officials. Additionally, the department displayed internal control deficiencies because leadership did not exercise adequate oversight responsibility over compliance with applicable legislation.

This department also repeats the anomaly of other sister departments where budget spent, that is 98,2% in this case, exceeds the 76% targets achieved.

Hon House Chairperson, sports, arts and culture transcends language, political, social and cultural boundaries and has the powerful effect of bringing members of South Africa together.

Looking at the 1st quarter of 2022-23 the ACDP notes with dismay that only 14,5% of the budget for recreation, development and sports promotion was spent and only 55,5% of

the budget for arts and culture promotion and development was spent. This is an injustice to people of South Africa.

The ACDP does not support this report. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Hon House Chairperson, sorry to intervene like this. It’s Singh here from the IFP. Hon Luthuli had a problem. Can the hon Zondo make a contribution to this debate? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Singh, we are doing declarations here.

Mr N SINGH: Yes, we are doing declarations. The IFP ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I thought that we have given the IFP a chance. But it’s fine. If not, we will request the IFP to come after the UDM, as I have already called them. The UDM? The IFP?

Mr S S ZONDO: Hon Chairperson, the COVID-19 pandemic greatly impacted the sport, arts, and culture industries as these industries were unable to generate income, resulting in their main focus presently being on the steady progression toward

recovery. This is also evident in the government’s shifting approach from economic relief to sustainable economic recovery.

For a department on the path of economic recovery, we find the accumulation of irregular expenditure rather strange. During the 2021-22 financial year, the department incurred an additional R59,7 million in irregular expenditures. The department cited non-approval by National Treasury as a reason for these expenditures. Considering the large sums of income lost due to the abrupt halt caused by the pandemic, we wish to emphasise the committee’s recommendation that the department should strengthen its oversight function to ensure that they have adequate measures in place to prevent irregular expenditure.

This recovery phase that the department is in also provides the perfect platform to further implement the department’s transformation agenda. We regard the promotion of minority sporting codes in township and rural schools as one such way to implement transformation. Therefore, we urge the recommendation that successful grassroots projects such as the Langa Hockey Club, should be replicated nationally. The IFP accepts the report. I thank you.

Mr M A ZONDI: House Chair, the ANC rise to support the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report of the Department of Sport Arts and Culture because it’s advances a critical mandate of harnessing our sports, arts and culture. Through this department’s mandate. We conserve and protect our culture, arts, heritage and history as a people. The department has made significant strides in supporting creative arts and sports persons to promote their talents and sustain their livelihoods.

Through the portfolio committee, we have consistently strengthened government and accountability by the department and its entities. We did so to improve the capability of the department and its entities. The fact that the department received 10 unqualified audits with no findings and 15 unqualified audits with finding, and only three out of 28 reflects that the department is relatively stable from government’s perspective, despite its outlier entities with challenges. We have recommended that the department improve its recruitment turnaround to expedite appointments to strengthen various leadership roles resulting in underspending.

We recommended a focus on finalising investigations underway and effective implementation of consequence management, hence formation remains a thorny issue in the sector because of its class, racial and gender inequalities in several sporting codes. We have also recommended that the department strengthen its infrastructure development projects to close the inequality gap which sustains a binary of development and underdevelopment in our country. The ANC supports the report. Thank you very much.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.


There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Ms T M MBABAMA: House Chair, of 28 years, there is no doubt that whatever the ANC government touches turns to ruin. The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development is no exception. Out of its eight entities, only two can be said to be working optimally. The rest, if not embroiled in court litigations, have qualified audit reports with repeat findings. Fruitless wasteful and irregular expenditure are the order of the day, with absolutely no intent on consequent management.

In Onderstepoort, only 48% of planned targets were met, with a high vacancy rate of 29%. Even the good manufacturing practice facility has still to be built. Despite the department having spent 94% of its final appropriation, it failed to deliver of 40% of its service delivery targets. What we witnessed on joint oversight to all nine provinces proved that only 108 labour tenant applications were processed and finalised out of a target of 1000. This dismal result despite the appointment of the special master of labour tenants at the land claims court. People on the ground are feeling on nondelivery, whilst government fat cats, including those on my right, are remunerated every month without fail.

Smallholder farmers are on their own, despite the introduction of the Presidential Employment Stimulus Initiative to help sustain self-employment for subsistence producers. The process became a logistical nightmare which resulted in R1,1 billion of voted funds being surrendered back to National Treasury.
The Auditor-General found out that the department was unable to provide adequate evidence that the goods were actually received by the intended beneficiaries resulting in the qualified audit outcome. This are but the highlights of the ruins by this incompetent blundering ... [Time expired.] ... department. The DA will not support this disheartening report.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you so much, House Chairperson. House Chairperson, the EFF wants to categorically state that we reject this Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report for the following crimes committed against the people of South Africa. For the financial report of the current year the department was appropriated the total amount of R18 billion, it spent approximately R17 billion of the appropriate funds which is about 93,3%. The R1,1 billion of which could not be spent and was surrendered back to the National Treasury. This is a serious crime.

The department incurred a total irregular expenditure amounting to R208,7 million, an increase from the R203,8 million incurred in 2020-2021. Approximately
R204,5 million of the irregular expenditure was historic from both the former departments and was due to noncompliance with supply chain management procedures. Of the total irregular expenditure of R287 million only R5,4 million is under determination and investigation.

Of all the entities reported or reporting to the department, the Ingonyama Trust Board and the Agricultural Land Holding Account are serial offenders and regularly on the wrong side of the law. In both entities, the audit opinion shows some serious transgressions and accountability shortcomings. We call for the finalisation of investigation of alleged and related maladministration in the affairs of the department in relation to the mismanagement of the comprehensive agricultural support programme.

There is a presidential proclamation in this regard for the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, to conclude its investigation and deal with the rot within the department. Having concluded visits to some of the labour tenants in different farming areas and got exposed to the levels of insecurity evictions

over ... [Inaudible.] ... levels of activities. The committee was extremely concerned by the ... [Time expired.] ... performance in the finalisation of labour tenants’ applications. Hon Chair, the EFF want to record once more ... [Time expired.] ... to the tabling of this Report. Thank you so much.

Mr N SINGH: I thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson, our agricultural sector is in the state of crisis. The department lacks the will and co-ordination to realise its constitutional mandate. This is against the backdrop of a huge need for the department to do better in taking care of our people through programmes that promote job creation and better financial management.

It is telling that we are always commenting on the bad financial management of government departments and this department is no exception. The under expenditure of the department when we have hundreds of struggling farmers and rural economies is a concern we resonate with. The consistent feature of irregular and wasteful expenditure has attached itself to the government and its departments at the expense of our people. The millions that government recklessly spends might seem like a drop in the ocean, however, when we put this

in retrospect to what we could have done for our rural and farming communities and people then the number is overwhelming.

We cannot accept the use of almost the entire budget for results that are just over the halfway mark. The continued use of the COVID-19 pandemic as a scapegoat for the lack of progress should be done away with. Results such as the 100% of the budget used for Programme 1 of the department but 50% target achievements reflect a clear disconnect between the will to do more by the department and even more no regard for the people it serves. The department continues to compromise on its mandate to create employment in the sector and facilitate comprehensive rural development.

This is indicative of its under expenditure towards the presidential employment stimulus initiative, under achievement of targets in the land development support program, allocation of land to vulnerable groups and land acquisition for farm dwellers and labour tenants. The improvement for our people standard and quality of living as well as socioeconomic positions are closely tied to these initiatives. It is clear that the department has no regard for that. We, as the IFP, plead that the government start taking the needs of our people

seriously and realise the responsibility they have to the people. We share the committee sentiments on the preservation and nurturing ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you very much. We will accept this Report. Thank you.


Me T BREEDT: Voorsitter, daar is verskeie sake binne die departement en sy entiteite wat kommerwekkend is. Daar is ongelukkig nie vandag tyd om al die feite uit te wys nie en sal ek slegs sekeres uitwys. Die kort en die lank is dat die departement sy eie huis in orde moet kry.

Een van die departement se hoof doelwitte is om programme daar te stel om boere by te staan om te verseker dat die land voedselsekuriteit het. As ons kyk na hoe hierdie departement die voortslepende bek-en-klouseer uitbraak tot dusver hanteer het, verder gaan kyk na krisisse soos in die sitrusbedryf, en nie net uitvoere nie, maar die verskeie protesoptogte landswyd, dan laat dit veel te wense toe en wil dit blyk asof landbouers nie vir die Departement van Landbou belangrik is nie. Die departement faal keer op keer sy boere, maak nie saak van hulle grootte nie.

Ons het nou al droogtes, vloede, plae en siektes binne die afgelope jaar in landbou ervaar maar die departement onderspandeer fondse met betrekking tot voorwaardelike toekennings wat juis hiervoor geoormerk is. Die departement het in 2021-22 R1,1 miljard onderspandeer.


Programme 3 that includes food security received the largest appropriation of all programmes and amounted to R9,5 billion. However, the department only spent 80% of its allocation for food security despite the increasing levels of food insecurity in the country. Underspending was specifically attributed to the issues with the presidential employment stimulus initiatives.

The Auditor-General of South Africa, AGSA, had an audit finding on primary agricultural credit. They were unable to obtain sufficient appropriate audit evidence relating to goods and services including the prepayments as managed did not implement adequate internal controls for proof of delivery of the goods to the intended beneficiaries. As members of the committee we were also confronted by this.


Al ons boere verdien beter. Ek dank u.

Mr W M THRING: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. The ACDP notes the expectations of the National Development Plan stating that by 2030 a million new jobs should be created and trade surplus is to be created from agriculture, agro- processing and related sectors where a third of the food trade surplus should be produced by smallholder producers. All these is easier said than done.

When looking at the performance of this department, irregular expenditure is up to R208 million from R203 million in 2020-21 and only R5,4 million is under determination and investigation. The department incurred fruitless and wasteful expenditure of some R36 million and only R33 000 is under determination and investigation. An additional R56,6 million of fruitless and wasteful expenditure is still under assessment in relation to noncompliance with policies.
Considering performance targets against programme expenditure, the department fails once again in the area of service delivery.

It was only 60% of the targets which were achieved while 93,9% of the appropriated budget was spent. The largest cost driver

for the administration programme is compensation of employees. This totals some R1,5 billion or 46% of the programme. Of great concern is the statement that this programme is consistent in spending 100% of its appropriated budget but with little improvement in performance. The ACDP contends that these dismal results, the agricultural expectations of the National Development Plan are just a pipe dream and, in fact, the enemy of land redistribution and development. The dysfunctionality within the department must be sorted out. I thank you.

Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, House Chair. The National Development Plan, NDP, while it is not insignificant is the latest instalment in providing a national blueprint for the development of agricultural sector including the reform of land redeem to provide tenure security, restitution and rural development before our people. The ... [Inaudible.] blueprints such as the agriculture and agro-processing master plan and the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, AsgiSA, laid the foundation on the reform of the agricultural sector. AsgiSA catalogued agriculture and agro-processing as having similar opportunities as tourism and Business Process Outsourcing, BPO. Despite this noble frameworks, the department’s performance and service delivery needs to

continue to be hampered by its irregular expenditure items which amounted to R208 million, an increase from the
R203 million incurred in 2020-21 financial year. The department also incurred fruitless and wasteful expenditure of R36 million during the 2021-22 financial year.

It is worrying that the department which must be at the centre of transforming and restructuring the agricultural sector ... [Inaudible.] ... ensuring the participation and inclusion of black and rural producers in the mainstream economy of the country and globally is not having its priorities right. One other concerned we cannot drive rural development and secure progressive rural land tenure as long as there’s no effort to deal with neglected or unaccounted state funds which are largely inhabited by people with no lease agreement with the state. Such state funds are no longer conducive for any development or production as there are no people who tilt the land or who are entrusted with the responsibility to develop and make these funds productive in every sense of the world.
This denies the state revenue and lends itself to illegal land occupation. We, nonetheless, support the report, hon House Chair. [Time expired.]

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. This is a department that we need to support. We’ve noticed incremental improvement and this must be because of the leadership that we are getting from the portfolio committee.
However, we would like to suggest that there’ll be a special programme where produce is pre-bought so that those venturing into this business do not have to suffer the financial risk if the products are not ... [Inaudible.] This was used in Zimbabwe very well and they’re still using it. I would like to suggest that the department looks at this special programme.
Al Jama-ah will support this report.

Mr Z M D MANDELA: The ANC takes note of the importance of the agricultural sector in helping grow our economy and the potential that the sector has in the creation of mass employment opportunities. We take note of the challenges faced by the sector such as the outbreak of foot and mouth disease and the climate change induced devastating impact of droughts and flash floods. It is for these reasons as the ANC we consciously use the budget allocation as a tool to finance our policy priorities aimed at eradicating of poverty, unemployment and inequality while addressing issues of race, class and gender equity. We are concerned by the findings of the Auditor-General on wasteful and irregular expenditure, and

we are encouraged by the committee’s recommendations in the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Reports, BRRR, and the department’s positive approach in responding to the findings of the a Auditor-General of South Africa, AGSA.

We acknowledge funding challenges still faced by many of the emerging smallholder farmers, especially the rural women and youth farmers. Therefore, we have called for enhanced accountability on the Agriculture Black Economic Empowerment, AgriBEE, Fund and Micro Agricultural Financial Institutions of South Africa, Mafisa. In support of this BRRR, we put emphasis on the radical implementation of the black producers commercialisation programme and call for increased funding for the blended financing model at the Land Bank with the enhanced account by the bank and access to funding as well as an effective implementation of the mandate of the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa. Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports this BRRR of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. I thank you. [Time expired.]

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.



There was no debate.


Thank you, hon House Chair. I move:

That the Report be adopted by this House.

Enkosi [Thank you].

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, African Christian

Democratic Party, Al Jama-ah and African National Congress.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr S J F MARAIS: House Chairperson, it will be a challenge to maintain and rebuild our defence capabilities in the light of a dwindling defence budget increased underfunded military deployments unsustainable increase in the cost of employees in excess of 70% of the budget for the dilapidation and unserviceability of our prime mission equipment that damning findings by the Auditor-General and the Public Protector of irregular wasteful and irregular spending on, among others, project ... [Inaudible.] ... to benefit the Cubans at the expense of South Africa and the lack of consequence management. The additional funds for operation ... [Inaudible.] ... encouraging where soldiers are subjected to the worst conditions, poor logistical support even basics like food, uniforms, combat shoes spares and inadequate ... [Inaudible.] ... capability and a ... [Inaudible.] ... support. Unfortunately, staff got away with transgressions and illegal activities without consequences. It seems like some

general staff act with impunity and no consequence management by the Minister, Secretary of Defence and their chief.


Minister, beloftes is gemaak dat selfs lede van die generale staf nie ongestraf gelaat sal word nie maar dit is waar dit geëindig het. Hoe kan ons dissipline in die weermag verwag terwyl lede van die generale staf sonder enige gevolge wegkom?


We must act fast and decisively to redesign, restructure, reprioritise and re-equip our arms of services. We must stop favouring Cuba and Russia at our expense. Our Military Veterans have poorly treated and despite the Deputy President’s whole lot of promises is apparent the resources and the ... [Inaudible.] ... to provide them the dignity and security they deserve is lacking. Minister, only you can hold the director-general, DG, and the staff accountable for not providing or statutory forces and nonstatutory forces the benefits they deserve. I thank you.

Mr W T I MAFANYA: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report for the portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. The Department of

Defence in its current form has not achieved its intended goals. Firstly, the four design of the military has not improved. The Defence Force is still populated by an aging population and nothing has been done to ... [Inaudible.] ... members of the force. The bulk of the defence budget is spent on salary payments on soldiers who are past their prime time as soldiers who the country can depend on their fitness levels during combat missions. The failure of the department to put all the aged on pension citing the loss of skills is a typical example of the clueless department that seeks to regard the Department of Defence as an employment agency. Of specific concern is the lack of investment in the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, prime mission equipment. The Navy Vessels are in need of urgent need of ... [Inaudible.] ... and the funds are not availed by Treasury. There is no technological advancement military force capable of executing its tasks effectively.

However, R225 million was allocated by National Treasury for the defence, Department of Defence, to purchase technology for boarder safeguarding. The Department of Defence ended up using only R85 million, the balance was used for unintended purposes and the 2022 BRRR which ... [Inaudible.] ... for borderline technology acquisition to a department that lacks consequence management for fruitless and wasteful expenditure. There is a

constant need for continued investment defence research and development, most notably projects ... [Inaudible.] ... has been one of the worst project the department undertaken in which billions of rand were unaccounted for. This had a negative output to Armscor. The fight vehicles have been delayed by more than 10 years. The Department of Military Veterans failed in its mission to ... [Inaudible.] ... socioeconomic support to military veterans ... the department underspent on its budget R91,8 million ... of the challenges
... the nation has been dramatically compromised. We reject this BRRR. [Time expired.]

Mr S S ZONDO: Hon House Chairperson, it is safe to say that the department has been struggling for several years to match a budget expenditure with the high cost of technology needed to protect the nation borders. More worrying is that its responsibility to provide services such as an access to pension fund to military veterans has become a matter of concern. We are aware of the recent commitment made the Deputy President, hon D D Mabuza, regarding the government’s commitment to making funds available for pensions. We encourage the government to honour this commitment and ensure safety and ease of access to those who qualify for pension.

Hon Minister, your department, according to the report, has quite worrying critical occupation vacancy rates. This needs to be addressed as the department and how defensive operatives globally require that leadership be central to how our military operations are conducted. Without proper leadership we will see a rapid decline in service and in capabilities in this department.

There is an alarming percentage of vacancies, for example in air space control there is a vacancy rate of 11,5%, in accrue has a vacancy rate of 25%, in nursing there is a vacancy rate of 16,6% in technical there is a vacancy rate of 23,3%. These are incredibly critical components to the functioning of this department’s operations.

It is reported that there is more than R300 million as a cost of sick leave to the department in the last financial year.
Yet, a vacancy rate of over 16% exists within nursing. The department must prioritise addressing the vacancy rate and put in place measures to ensure that the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, members are fit to reduce the amount of sick leave.

In closing, irregular expenditure, according to the Department of Defence, amounted to R3,153 billion for 2021-22 ... [Time expired.] ... The IFP supports the report. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chairperson, this is the third consecutive financial year in which the Department of Defence has received a qualified audit opinion. Furthermore, irregular expenditure rose from R2,1 billion in the previous financial year to R3,1 billion this financial year. Despite overspending on compensation of employees, the Department of Defence has not put in place proper internal controls to keep track of leave taken by staff.

Further evidence of negligence is that the Department of Defence was not able to tell the Auditor-General where to find movable tangible assets with the value of R64,7 billion. With respect to the auditing of Project Thusano the department was reportedly even uncooperative with the Auditor-General who correctly regards contracts under this project as irregular.
Should this project continue until January 2025 as planned, over R2,5 billion will have been spent on paying Cuban technicians to maintain South African military equipment which the ACDP condemns. We cannot afford to fund the Cuban state

while over a third of our own people are officially unemployed.

The Department of Defence needs ring fenced allocations to upgrade our frigates and submarines to finance border control technology to renew contracts for environmentally controlled South African army warehouses and to ensure that our strategic air lift capacity is in place.

Departmental spending is close to 100% and the committee has repeatedly called for essential budget allocations to be ring fenced. There is also a 37% shortage of engineers with vacancies that are presumably unfunded ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, we feel that it is important for the defence force to move to the next level and that is to employ best practices so that our men in uniform can defend our country. One of the areas that has been neglected is proper housing. After 30 or 40 years of service you find that they are left out in the cold. I spoke to the head of the defence force about that and I would like to compliment him that he feels that the defence force must look at best practices for their employees and the defence force

should be a best practice outfit. Al Jama-ah supports the report. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

Mr A M SEABI: Hon House Chair, the ANC supports the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans for the Department of Defence and Military Veterans Armaments Corporation of South Africa and Castle Control Board. We are concerned that in the past two financial years the Department of Defence received a qualified audit opinion from the Auditor-General for 2021-22. This is a matter that the department should improve on in the coming financial year, in particular, the areas of irregular expenditure in which the department did not fully record irregular expenditure in the notes to the financial statements as required by Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. Also on movable tangible assets where the Auditor-General was unable to obtain sufficient appropriate evidence for movable tangible capital assets as the department could not indicate where these assets are located or provide other information relating to the existence of these assets.

What is further worrying is the lack of co-operation by the Department of Defence with the Auditor-General South Africa, AGSA, in its auditing of Project Thusano and the value for

money and the project offers. We are however encouraged that the Department of Defence acknowledged that it provided the relevant information to AGSA at a later stage and that the department takes responsibility for this lapse in co- operation. We will ensure that the department lives up to its commitment to co-operate with the AG.

We support the recommendation that the Department of Defence prioritises R140 million from its allocation for 2023-24 for the purpose of border safeguarding technology as force multipliers subject to this prioritisation being carried out and spent successfully. We further support the recommendation that further ring-fence the allocation for border safeguarding technology by National Treasury for the outer years of the 2023 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, be supported.
The ANC support this report.

Question put that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Reports accordingly adopted.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms R C ADAMS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes with sadness the passing on of TV and radio personality Ms Pearl Shongwe at the age of 35, on Tuesday 8 November 2022;

(2) further notes that she was a newsreader on Metro FM and presenter on SABC1’s talk show Daily Thetha, at the time of her passing;

(3) remembers that Ms Shongwe’s career in broadcasting started in 2010, when she worked for youth radio station YFM, as a broadcasting entertainment reporter;

(4) further remembers that she later joined the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, as a sports presenter;

(5) recalls that she was known as a dynamic force in the media industry, a seasoned presenter and a passionate and career-driven person;

(6) believes that her untimely passing on has robbed the media industry of a talented, knowledgeable and versatile anchor; and ... [Interjections.

The HOUSE CAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, there is a point of order.

Mr M S MALATSI: Chairperson, I am sorry to interrupt the member, but there’s a Minister giggling through the speech of her colleague there, disrupting her own member of caucus because, she is laughing at whatever she’s hearing from her earpiece. It’s a pity ... [Interjections.

The HOUSE CAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member, thank you. Can you continue, hon Adams? That was not a point of order. Continue, hon Adams, you still have a few seconds left. Let’s be in order, hon members. Let’s continue with the work. Over to you, hon Adams.

Ms R C ADAMS: Thank you, Chairperson.

(7) extends its deepest condolences to the Shongwe family, friends and colleagues in the media.

I so move.

Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)

Mr A C ROOS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes that Community Circle SA celebrated its second anniversary on 9 November 2022;

(2) recalls that Community Circle SA is a voluntary organisation founded to provide assistance and advice to South Africans living abroad;

(3) recognises that Community Circle SA has grown to almost 22 000 members since its founding; and

(4) conveys its thanks to the founder, Kim Milner Kur, and her team of volunteers, for their tireless work in providing assistance to South Africans living abroad.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms N N CHIRWA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes the recent, vicious attacks by pit bulls on ordinary civilians, particularly children, in the recent weeks and months;

(2) sends condolences to the families of 3 and 8-year old boys, who were mauled to death by pit bulls in the Free State ... [Interjections.]


MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Mong M L D Ntombela): Ntate Chabane, kwala kapelenyane.


Sorry about that, hon member. Can you continue?

Ms N N CHIRWA: Thank you. ... and the 10-year old boy who was mauled to death in Gqeberha, Eastern Cape, and the many families who have lost children due to pit bulls, particularly in Mpumalanga and Cape Town in the recent years;

(3) acknowledges that pit bulls are a dangerous breed of dogs, which is often bred for the purposes of inflicting violence on unknown human intruders or to deter crime, for the dog fighting or dog fighting as well;

(4) further acknowledges that the dog which has the propensity to be used to deter crime by human beings, cannot differentiate between humans which are a threat, and those which are not, based on the breed even attacking children of its owners,

(5) recalls that despite negative breeding patterns, the pitbull breed is inherently aggressive;

(6) futher recalls that much pain, trauma and injury has been caused by the dog attacks; and

(7) calls for an enquiry if the domestic pet ownership of pitbull, which may include public hearing, and subsequently, a complete ban of the domestic ownership of pitbulls as domestic pets.

I so move.

Agreed to.



(Draft Resolution)

Mr T B MUNYAI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes that Dr Nerina van der Merwe, Principal Scientist within the University of the Free State’s Division of Human Genetics and the National Health Laboratory Service, and her colleague, Mr Jaco Oosthuizen, in a collaborative project with a research group from the University of Stellenbosch, have come up with new cost-effective genetic testing for breast and ovarian cancer, which is key to our country;

(2) understands that once implemented and operational, women with these types of cancers in their families can be quickly, easily and cheaply screened in a method that can identify risks pretty early;

(3) further understands that by using new technology based on rapid Point of Care, POC, testing, they have implemented a new diagnostic test for familial breast and ovarian cancer ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes that the rural land restitution of the community of Mgundeni, in KwaZulu-Natal under the traditional leader, Inkosi Mabaso, was awarded this year’s World Wildlife Fund, WWF, Living Planet Award at WWF South Africa’s annual general meeting on 11 November;

(2) further Notes that WWF’s Living Planet Award is given annually to exceptional South Africans who, through their catalytic contribution, inspire people to live in harmony with nature;

(3) acknowledges that in October 2009, the Mgundeni community became the first communal landowners in the province to enter into a voluntary biodiversity stewardship agreement with Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife, committing 124ha of their land to conservation;

(4) further acknowledges that the rural community is mostly reliant on livestock and small-scale farming within this high-altitude, biodiverse part of the Grasslands biome, which also falls within a strategic water source area, and that for over 20 years, this community has shown incredible foresight and consistent dedication as active custodians of their biodiversity-rich land in the Northern KwaZulu-Natal; and

(5) congratulates the Mgundeni community, in KwaZulu- Natal, for having received this award for their pioneering role in community-led land stewardship.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House-

(1) notes the current protest in Iran and several other Iranian cities, where police stations and vehicles were torched on Thursday night;

(2) further notes that the unrest was triggered by the death of the Iranian woman detained by the Islamic Republic’s morality police;

(3) recognises that Mahsa Amini, 22, died last week in police custody, after being arrested for wearing unsuitable attire by the morality police in Iran, she allegedly improperly worn her headscarf;

(4) acknowledges that this incident has now further escalated n the Iranian national soccer team last night on the world stage, refused to sing their national anthem before the start of the game against England at the World Cup; and

(5) sends its condolences to the family of Mahsa Amini and all the women of Iran, while calling on all governments to respect, protect and enhance the rights and dignity of all women.

I so move.

Agreed to.




(Draft Resolution)

Ms A RAMOLOBENG: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House-

(1) notes with sadness the passing of the Eastern Cape magistrate who was gunned down on Saturday,
12 November 2022, while travelling with her husband and children;

(2) understands that the 38-year-old Mount Ayliff Magistrate Ms Buliswa Tseki-Phatho and her family were travelling from another village when they came under fire;

(3) further understands that a white Ford Ranger double cab pretended to be overtaking their car and the unidentified occupants started shooting at the family vehicle;

(4) acknowledges that the magistrate succumbed to gunshot injuries while the husband and the 13-year-old son suffered serious gunshot wounds;

(5) further acknowledges that the 10-year-old escaped unscathed;

(6) we call on police to leave no stone unturned in their investigation and to bring the perpetrators of this heinous act to book; and

(7) conveys its condolences to the family of the magistrate and wishes the husband and son a speedy recovery.

Thank you.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr W M THRING: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House-

(1) notes yet another crash, involving a truck and three vehicles, on the M35 in Isipingo, Durban, which left seven people dead;

(2) offers our condolences to the families who lost their loved ones; and

(3) further notes that in October alone, more than 55 truck accidents were reported in KwaZulu-Natal;

(4) calls on the Minister of Transport to improve our rail network and to work with truck owners and drivers to reduce fatalities on our roads.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms S J GRAHAM: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House-

(1) notes that Hoër Volkskool in Graaf-Reinet recently celebrated its centenary;

(2) further notes that Hoër Volkskool was established as the first Afrikaans-medium school in the then Kaapland in 1922 in response to the growing numbers of Afrikaans speaking residents in both the town and the outer lying areas;

(3) acknowledges that Hoër Volkskool has a strong sporting tradition despite its relatively small size, and that
20 sportsmen and women attained provincial colours, while one also received national colours, for rugby, cricket, swimming, archery, golf and shooting in 2021 alone;

(4) recognises that Hoër Volkskool also encourages a balanced learning experience, with cultural activities such as debating, choir and chess on offer;

(5) recalls that Hoër Volkskool boasted a 98,3% matric pass rate for 2021, with 38 subject A’s and 65% of learners who qualified for bachelor degree admission; and

(6) congratulates Hoër Volkskool on its centenary and wishes the principal, staff and learners continued success.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mrs Y N YAKO: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF:

That the House-

(1) notes the decision of the Constitutional Court on

21 November 2022, ordering the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services to grant parole to Janusz Walu?;

(2) further notes that Janusz Walus is a Polish right-wing immigrant who was arrested in 1993 for assassinating anti-apartheid hero, Commander of Umkhonto Wesizwe and General Secretary of the SACP, Chris Hani;

(3) acknowledges that the death of Hani almost pushed the country into a civil war, and that by killing Hani, his assassins thought they were killing the very idea of freedom for black people in the country;

(4) further acknowledges that Hani’s death continues to cause immense pain to his wife and children and the rest of the family, to his comrades and to the rest of the South African people who looked up to him as a leader of principle, upon whose shoulders the aspirations of the people rested;

(5) recognizes that many of the social, political and judicial injustices that Hani dedicated his life fighting against are still prevalent in this country, and that for exactly that reason, his life and what it represented will continue to resonate with millions of oppressed and exploited South Africans; and

(6) sends its words of appreciation for the role Hani played to his family and the party he led; and sends words of comfort to Mrs Hani in particular, affirming to her that this House and South Africans in general still hold Mr Hani in very high esteem.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms G K TSEKE: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House-

(1) notes that six outstanding South African women scientists were recognised for their contributions to science at this year’s L'Oréal-UNESCO for Women in Science National Awards ceremony, held in Johannesburg on 3 November 2022;

(2) further notes that this year’s recipients, Dr Thilona Arumugam, Dr René Booysen, Ms Boitumelo Mabakachaba, Dr Farzahna Mohamed, Dr Asanda Mtintsilana and Ms Jessica Thibaud, join a long list of women scientists honoured by L’Oréal and UNESCO every year;

(3) acknowledges that as part of this recognition, each woman received a generous grant in support of their PhD or postdoctoral studies;

(4) understands that the Foundation L’Oréal and UNESCO have worked together for more than 20 years to help empower more women scientists to achieve scientific excellence and participate equally in solving the significant challenges facing humanity;

(5) and congratulates the six outstanding women scientists for displaying a high degree of excellence in the field of science.

Ke a leboga [Thank you.]

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms K B TLHOMELANG: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House-

(1) notes that the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women will mark the launch of the UNITE campaign from 25 November to 10 December - an initiative of 16 days of activism concluding on the day that commemorates the International Human Rights Day;

(2) further notes that this years’ campaign UNITE! Activism to End Violence against Women and Girls will aim to mobilize all society to become activists for the prevention of violence against women, to stand in solidarity with women’s rights activists and to support feminist movements around the world to resist the rollback on women’s rights;

(3) understands that violence against women and girls is one of the most widespread, persistent and devastating human rights violations in our world today and remains largely unreported due to the impunity, silence, stigma and shame surrounding it;

(4) believes that violence against women continues to be an obstacle to achieving equality, development, peace as well as the fulfilment of women and girls’ human rights. [Time expired.]

Thank you.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms K D MAHLATSI: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House-

(1) notes that at the recent Falling Walls Science Summit in Berlin the hotly contested Breakthrough of the Year category saw not just the first place, but also second awarded to South Africans;

(2) further notes that the summit is one of the biggest get-togethers of the global scientific community, held for three days during the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall which separated East and West Berlin for nearly 28 years;

(3) understands that first place went to Wits University’s Tamlyn Sasha Naidu for her intervention that tackles acid mine drainage in a circular economy and second

place went to Emma Horn, from the University of Cape Town, who has come up with a way of making super-strong tiles out of calcium and urea in a way that requires a negligible amount of energy; and

(4) congratulates Ms Naidu and Ms Horn on their much- deserved win and wishes them much success in their fields of study.

Thank you.


(Draft Resolution)

Mrs E R WILSON: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House-

(1) notes that Adelaide Hlungwani and Happy Ramaano took first place at the 2022 World Dance Council Amateur League World Championships;

(2) further notes that the Limpopo-based ballroom pair had to plead for donations in order to participate in the competition from the 4 November to the 14 November this year, and South Africans we quick to respond and the costs of flight, food, hair, dance attire and shoes enabled them to compete in this prestigious event;

(3) notes that over the seven days the couple competed against other professional dance couples from around the world in the Latin American, ChaCha, Samba, Rumba, Pasadoble and Jive dance styles;

(4) acknowledges that they performed in front of 40 qualified adjudicators from around the world, and the competitors were judged on best dressed, best rehearsed, best performance per dance and more;

(5) further acknowledges that recognises that Hlungwani and Ramaano won a recognition gold WDCAL engraved medal, as well as a letter of authority issued to the South African Dance Committee stating that the couple must be taken care of in terms of dance essentials;

(6) notes that this was the couple’s first competition abroad South Africa and Limpopo on the dance map; [Interjections.]

(7) we thank them for flying the South African flag high

... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Tebogo Letsie!

Agreed to


(Draft Resolution)

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the Al Jama-ah:

That the House-

(1) notes the proceedings of the reopened inquest into the death of anti-apartheid activist Martyr Imam Abdullah

Haron, which started in the Cape High Court on

7 November 2022;

(2) further notes that the proceedings were postponed on

15 November 2022 until next year for arguments;

(3) recognises that Imam Haron was killed in detention on

27 September 1969;

(4) acknowledges the struggle of the Haron family and other support structures for their steadfastness in ensuring that this inquest is reopened and is before a court of law;

(5) further acknowledges that the reopening of the inquest sparked off hopes for justice to other families whose loved ones were also killed in detention or in other suspicious circumstances by members of the former apartheid security police;

(6) further notes with concern that the process for reopening of the inquest took nearly 53 years; and

(7) asks the House to join the family in grief as they find some form of comfort and closure.

I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms C M PHIRI: Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House-

(1) notes that Ms Gloria Serobe, co-founder of Wiphold and chair of the Solidarity Fund, was honoured recently at the Sunday Times Top 100 Companies event for her decades-long contribution to business and empowerment;

(2) further notes that Serobe was named this year’s recipient of the Lifetime Achiever Award;

(3) understands that her business acumen is steeped in social transformation, with the goal to empower women, specifically through socially inclusive economic models to uplift marginalised rural women through interventions underpinned by agriculture and tourism;

(4) further understands that with her partners, Serobe created and built Wiphold from the ground up and the organisation lists Wiphold Investment Trust as having more than 1 200 direct and 18 000 indirect women beneficiaries; and

(5) congratulates Ms Serobe on her much deserved award.

Ke a leboga. [Thank you.]

Agreed to.


Mr H G APRIL: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate the Heidedal Mine Quarry and other mine quarries which are unsafe and lead to deaths of our children. These quarries are more dangerous than pitbulls.

Mr K CEZA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

That this House discus the breakdown of all municipal contract private businesses who owe monies and the implications it has on basic services in the country.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. My apologies to the DA. Thank you, hon member from the EFF. The DA.

Mr H C C KRÜGER: Hon House Chairperson, apology accepted. I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That this House debate the long-term economic effects that the regulatory reform will have on small business development and job creation.

Mr B M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate improving the ability of all spheres of government to contribute towards disaster management.

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That this House debates the ever increasing existential threat to safety and security posed by organised criminal syndicates currently operating in South Africa, the policy changes required and immediate interventions that should be put in place to reduce such risks.


Dr W J BOSHOFF: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat by die volgende sitting van die Huis ek namens die VF Plus sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis—

debatteer oor die invloed wat artikel 235 van die Grondwet oor selfbeskikking op basiese en hoër onderwys behoort te hê aangesien daardie artikel die staat se territoriale eenheid beskerm deur kulturele verskeidenheid te erken in teenstelling met onderwysowerhede wat druk laat opbou deur verskeidenheid te misken.


Ms G P MAREKWA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate mobilising communities and society broadly around issues of corruption and by emphasising the culture of exposing corruption and protecting whistle blowers.

Mr S N SWART: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House debates increasing economic sabotage, vandalism and theft of economic infrastructure across the country and at Eskom, Transnet and other state-owned companies in particular.

Ms H ISMAIL: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the need for the Department of Health to adequately provide for the mental health needs of health care workers in the country.

Ms N TAFENI: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:

That this House—

(1) debates about the violence that is happening in the Eastern Cape province where young children are being brutally killed by their relatives and there has been no arrests;

(2) note that on 20 November this year, a father killed his 13-year-old daughter and his nine- year-old nephew;

(3) further note that in eNgcobo, a woman killed her four children with a hummer and;

(4) plead with the Department of Social Development and also the Department of Justice and Correctional Services, to engage those families with the issues.

Ms M L PIETERSEN: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate the holistic approach to deal with a challenge of criminality of illegal mining,

which has a negative effect on the economy and the national security of the country.

Dr J NOTHNAGEL: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate the strengthening of security measures at police stations to prevent police station robberies which pose a serious threat to the security of the country.

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate measures geared at curtailing legal land invasions and occupations which are detrimental to orderly distribution of land.

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That this House debate the need for a national commission of enquiry into the endemic police corruption in the country and its effect on the safety of South Africans in all provinces.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Aljama-ah:

That after the inquest on the evidence of the horrific bruises inflicted on Imam Abdullah Haron, this House debate the forfeiture of former special branch member’s pension benefits who are guilty of torture.

Ms C M PHIRI: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debate the strengthening of interventions geared at eradicating the proliferation of illegal guns which are the most commonly used murder weapons in the country.

The House adjourned at 17:28.