Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 09 Nov 2022


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary


The House met at 15:00.


The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



Question 766:


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Thank you hon House Chair, and good afternoon to hon members. Controls have since been put in place in 2021 and have significantly reduced the value of payments made to deceased participants. Starting from a high of R1,2 million in the financial year 2021, we moved down after the measures to R245 000, and under current review we have reduced to R75 000. All verified payments that were made by implementing agents to deceased participants are recovered from the implementing agents. Secondly to the question, there remain no challenges in this regard and the Auditor-General has confirmed such. Thank you.

Mr X N MSIMANGO: Thank you very much, House Chair. Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your response. In our budgetary review and recommendations report adopted in the National Assembly on 8 November 2022 we have outlined our serious concerns with ongoing state of affairs with regards to Community Works Programme, CWP. In acknowledging your reply, it only addresses one aspect of what we are asking. Could we be briefed on the interventions Co-operative Governance has undertaken to improve the project planning and project management of the contracted implementing agents and what results have accrued from the exercise? Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

he DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Thank you once more, House Chair. The department implemented the new CWP policy from 1 October 2021, and as indicated, it significantly improved the control measures which were related to the overall management requirement and expenditure. It also plays the role of what implementing agents are supposed to do in future, and addresses the root causes of the problems with regards to the rolling out of the programme itself. We have tested this and has resulted — as you may know — we have moved from a disclaimer audit to a qualified audit with three matters of emphasis that the department is working on to deal with the challenges that remain in the opinions of the past. Thank you.

Mr K CEZA: Hon House Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, five forensic investigations were commissioned since the Community Work Programme in 2012. We had a meeting with you, if you remember, around November 2020 and you told us that the issue of ghost workers started as early as the beginning of the CWP. You also told us that in 2012 the reported irregular expenditure was R48 million out of the R1,2 billion spent.

Today the irregular expenditure recorded has now increased to hundreds of millions. It is starting to look like the Minister and the senior manager in the department are going out of their way to protect these people who are stealing money that is supposed to create employment opportunities. Deputy Minister, is the Minister benefitting from these irregular expenditures? Is she a trustee of these non-profit organisations, NGOs, that continue to steal without any consequences? Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, I will only respond to the follow up that has also been tested by the Auditor-General and I have gone through the outcomes. I guess there are processes which could be utilised to prove whether the Minister is a beneficiary or non-beneficiary, so I will not even enter into that debate. I have indicated that in the 2021 financial year we were sitting at R1,2 million, and I have even categorically stated what the Auditor-General in this current term has declared R75 000 as the amount which has been paid to deceased participants. Therefore, there is no increase. Yes, the programme has been a challenge which led to the review of the policy and I am saying we are seeing benefits in the measures that have been introduced to run the programme with the implementing agents. Thank you very much, House Chair

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The next follow up question will be from the hon Thring. Hon Thring? He is online but—is he muted? Hon Thring, please unmute.



Mr S N SWART: House Chair, let’s just try and see if we can unmute him. Otherwise I will ask the follow up.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, can we proceed to hon Jafta and hen we will come back? If he is not there then we proceed. Hon Jafta?

Mr S M JAFTA: Hon House Chair, to the Deputy Minister, the Eastern Cape is leading in creating ghost poverty alleviation stricken services on projects which are meant to uplift poor people. Not only is this poverty spread through corruption but also through lack of accountability at provincial and local levels. The symptoms of this lack of accountability socially dislocates our people and expose them to slavery in nearby cities. Given this bleak account, does the Ministry have any plans in place in monitoring the work of provincial and local spheres on the implementation of their respective poverty alleviation programmes? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): Hon House Chair, thank you again for the question. This is a holistic response which takes care of all the nine provinces where the programme of CWP is enrolled and is running. All the measures that have been implemented include the management in the Eastern Cape, and in this regard the department is not allowing the money not to be recollected or the revenue to be regained if it has not been paid in a deserving manner. As I had said we recoup the money and at present we are at R75 000 on the money that has not been paid and utilised appropriately by the implementing agents.

The programme itself is meant to uplift and decrease poverty in our areas. Implementing agents are utilised for training and capacity development and the department has put measures in terms of identifying and ensuring that needy people are the ones who are capacitated to benefit in this programme. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Are we okay with hon Thring now? Hon Thring, are you able to come in?



Mr W M THRING: Hon House Chair, I will pass on this question, and if I am able to come in at a later stage. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, on this question you won’t be able to come back.



Mr S N SWART: Hon House Chair, may I?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, hon Swart will take that slot and the question now.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you House Chair, and we really appreciate the community work programme provided to 230 000 participants; it is very commendable. Whilst we appreciate the private sector as the main body but this is decisive in fighting poverty and unemployment. Deputy Minister, you gave an indication of the steps that are being taken and you gave an indication of the R75 000 that is being recouped. One of the challenges going back is the concept of prescription. If the money is not collected within a three year period then one loses that. Secondly, you also indicated that ghost employees are being traced. Do you believe that sufficient steps are being taken to remove those ghost employees and to recover particularly that debt that might have prescribed which might be a challenge to prescribe? We do however commend the initiative. Thank you very much.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, I appreciate the question from the hon member. I think as I have indicated, the idea of the new CWP policy is to improve the intake, update the terms of training of our community members on the criteria used to select them and do training. Then there is also the element of how do you pay and how do you manage the procurement and the accountability services. On the R75 000 I



may have to repeat clearly so that the House captures it. With regards to ghost payments we had reduced from the financial year 2021, from R1,2 million in the past two financial years down to R75 000 now. We are also recouping all the money that has been paid through the implementing agents back into the department. I think there is an assurance that the system is working by moving us from a million to around R75 000.

However, we are not saying that the R75 000 is not something that the department must pursue; each and every cent of the state that has not been paid appropriately to a deserving individual must be paid back. That is the assurance the system is trying to create. Thank you.



Question 768:




you, House Chair and good afternoon to you and hon members in the House ... [Inaudible.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, it’s not her, it’s information technology, IT. The screens are dark, so the expectation is that in responding at least let’s show our faces. But it’s not you. I think we have a problem here. It keeps on going in and out. Please proceed.





Thank you, House Chair. Good afternoon to you and hon members in the House. Government takes the issue of payment of suppliers seriously, and it is concerned about ... [Inaudible.] ... complaints in this regard. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, together with the National Treasury and the Department of Small Business Development are implementing the following measures to address challenges in this area. Those measures are, the continuous monitoring the analysing of quarterly reports, which are submitted by National Treasury to do DPME, identification of struggling departments and the facilitation of implementation of support measures. To this end, DPME together with the National Treasury and the Department of Health are engaging with the Eastern Cape Department of Health to find lasting solutions to its ongoing challenges of paying suppliers within the stipulated time frame. Another one is that the establishment of centralized email in National Treasury to enable suppliers to submit their queries of non-payment. The other one is the National Treasury will be revising instruction number 34 that was issued in 2011 to gather more information from departments. This will allow you to better understand the root cause of non-payments and to initiate implementation of support measures.



Furthermore, the Department of Small Business Development is currently reviewing the National Small Enterprise Act to set up an ombudsman’s office to offer alternative routes to resolve disputes and advocate for issues raised by the small, medium and micro enterprise. The Act is scheduled to be submitted to Parliament in February 2023. The department also continues to monitor the performance of departments that have accounting officers through its monitoring toolkit. And this is done through the head of department, HOD and Performance Management and Development System, PMDS.



Poor performance and failure to comply with the requirements of the Performance Management Act must be dealt with through the applicable labour relations framework and in line with performance agreements that accounting officers enter into with the executive authority. One of the performance indicators on the Performance Management Development System for heads of department is the payment of suppliers within 30days after receipt of the invoice. This is to enable executive authorities to hold accounting officers accountable for failure to pay suppliers within the stipulated timeframe. In terms of the performance agreements that they shall have entered into with the accountability authority. Thank you.



Ms S T MANELI: Thank you, House Chair. Deputy Minister, thank you for the response. With regards to the response on the first part of the question, we note the integrated response that has been undertaken across the three departments and centralized email system will seem to probably be the most appropriate for suppliers to lodge complaints.



On the second part of the question, apart from contractual matters, which are supposed to be detected, the problem is the human resource components, suggesting PMDS will assist when a system has not been functioning well to provide assurance on holding individuals accountable. The challenge, in the main, is human resource and it requires effective management. How does the Deputy Minister assess this? Thank you, House Chair.





you House Chair. The Performance Management Act is a requirement in terms of performance agreement, which means is placed in the performance agreement of the heads of department. What it means is that when your HODs and director generals, DGs, sign the performance agreement with the political accounting officers, in their performance agreement they are also required to ensure that the 30days payment requirements is part of the key indicator of their



performance. And in that way, it becomes easier for the accounting authority to hold them accountable to ensure that they make sure that the 30days payment of invoices come into effect, because it’s part of their required performance indicator in their work plans. Thank you.



Mr J J McGLUWA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, irrespective of all these undertakings, and intervention it is a well-known fact that the ANC is to be blamed for the downfall of small businesses. The Minister is not here he has a tendency of not attending even portfolio committee meetings. Just today, in the small business development meeting it was revealed that the for the financial year 2020-2021, 2021-2022, R4 billion has been has not been paid within 30days, and that is 130,000 invoices.



With the exception of the DA-led government in the Western Cape, in all other provinces R28,9 billion rand has not been paid in 30days, 260,000 invoices. The Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, is on record to say that 80% of government institutions ... [Interjections.] ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon MacGluwa, your time is up.



Mr J J McGLUWA: They must go to jail. They don’t want to hear the truth. Not even one person that has been taken to jail.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order hon members! Don’t assist in that way. Hon MacGluwa, you know the rules. No, this is the watch. You can come and see how many seconds you went over. That’s not how we do things. No, no, don’t do that. Everybody now looks at my watch, which is in front of me and it is well controlled. Honourable Deputy Minister.





you, House Chair. Like I indicated in my previous response, this Sixth Administration remains committed to ensuring that we pay service providers within 30days. That is why I have indicated the measures that have been put in place to ensure that we hold the accounting officials responsible. And I have ensured and insisted that in their workplace and work agreements, there is an indicator which is ensuring that within 30days, our service providers get to the paid. It is also this very same Administration that takes serious the existence and wanting the sustainability of small businesses. Hence you have got that department which was solely formed to ensure that we assist them. But furthermore, it’s in regards to wanting to strengthen the Act. Hence I said it’s going to



be tabled in February in 2023. All of these measures are put in place to ensure that we assist the sustainability and the livelihoods of small businesses. So it is not true that we are not interested in the sustainability of small businesses. We are putting all these efforts in place to ensure that they remain afloat. Thank you, Chair.



Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Deputy Minister, understanding the plight of our SMMEs and the problems and frustrations that they experience in case they are not paid on time. And some of them actually end up closing their businesses. In July National Treasury said and I quote:



Disciplinary actions should be taken against officials who fail to comply with the requirements to pay invoices in 30days and who undermines the system of internal control.



What examples of disciplinary actions that you can provide this House since July on this matter? If they are not, why? If so, please provide details. Thank you.





you, House Chair. You would remember that I said part of paying service providers within 30days is part of complying



with the Public Financial Management Act, PFMA. I am going to request that you allow me to go and look at some examples so that I do not mislead the House in relation to what examples are there. But there are consequence management if one is not able to live up to the expectation in relation to the contractual agreement that they shall have entered with their respective employer. I can then bring up such examples in writing, which will then be able to give you examples of what happens if you do not comply with the contractual agreement that you have entered with a specific department in relation to making sure that you pay within 30days. But we remain committed to ensuring that we hold HODs and DGs, accountable for ensuring that our people are paid in time so that small business can remain afloat. Thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, you talk about the Sixth Parliament, the Sixth Parliament is almost coming to an end. This was initiated in the Fifth Parliament. I must tell you, Deputy Minister, that these small businesses live from hand to mouth, if you understand what I mean. Now the question is, and let me tell you there’s enough legislation ... [Inaudible.] ... What we don’t have is consequence management. When will we do something about ensuring that those people that are violating the PFMA pay the



ultimate price instead of letting so many businesses shut down? When will you be able to do something? And can you perhaps, Deputy Minister give us a comprehensive list in the last two years, how many people how many of these officials face the might of the law or face consequences for their failure to pay people on time within the 30days?





you, House Chair. As I indicated, I’m going to request that I go and compile an example of what we have been able to do in holding accountable those who have failed to live up to the 30day payments period, which I will then bring to the House and you can then be able to give it to hon Shaik-Emam so that he can see the work that we are doing in ensuring that we hold those who are supposed to be held accountable in relation to 30days payment of invoices.



I still want to re-emphasize that we remain committed to ensuring that our department pay small business within the allocated timeframe. And where they are not able to we follow up in relation to making sure and finding out what might be the hindrance in living up to the 30days payment. Thank you.



Question 787:





AFFAIRS (Ms T Ndimeng): Thank you, hon House Chair. Thank you for the question, hon Spies. As you may be aware, members of the executive do not interfere with the procurement processes. But upon receipt of this question, the Ministry enquired from the department. We have been informed that the tender advertised in June 2022 was subsequently cancelled in order to review the terms and references based on the findings of the Auditor-General, that are also alluded to in my first response with regard to the findings of the Auditor-General. Together with our internal audit team the terms of reference in the previous tender were relooked and the process is now in discussion between ourselves as the Deputy Minister of Co- Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and the chief procurement officer at the National Treasury to look at the critical matters that were outlined by the Auditor-General in enhancing our selection and procurement process with regard to the Community Work Programme, CWP.



These amongst, other things, include the blacklisting of the implementing agencts and these discussions are still ongoing and we will be updated once they are concluded. Thank you.



Ms E R J SPIES: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, payments to the implementing agents have not only become a significant cost item in the implementation of the Community Work Programme, but they are now transitioning to become conduits for corruption. What options has the department explored if, any, to do away with the implementing agent model and ensure that the majority of CWP budget goes to CWP participants?





AFFAIRS (Ms T Ndimeng): Thank you very much for the follow-up question. Yes, amongst the implementing agents review and the scope, the department has put forth that implementing agents only play a role with regard to administrative support. But all the necessary roles that are played in CWP be given to the CWP participants themselves outside the implementing agents.

This means that they will only be given administrative support, and mot the overall management of the participants. It’s one of the things we are looking into. Thank you.



Mr G G MPUMZA: Thanks, hon Chair. Deputy Minister, given the challenges that have been experienced and the danger they pose to the Community Work Programme - a fundamental total policy to address unemployment, the department need to take a



decisive action against the implementing agents - nonprofit organisations - who continue to do as they please. While we note the department’s efforts to revise and remodel the CWP, it appears that this has neither produced any tangible outcomes nor made any significant difference. What undertaking can we be given that matters are going to be turned around?

Thank you.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Ndimeng): Thank you, House Chair. Thank you, hon Mpumza. As I have said to hon Spies, the department together with the provincial local governments will now be defining the role of the useful work and relevant training to ensure that CWPs are aligned to the local economic development, LED, priorities of a particular area where they are at as well as the integrated development plan, IDPs, but also minimising the role of the implementing agents to only administrative support, and not the core works of what the participants are supposed to do. So we will also assist in defining the useful work and the useful training that the participants will need to undertake. Thank you.



Mr K CEZA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy Minister, we have just demonstrated to you earlier that you are not



interested in fighting corruption. We have just quickly checked the so-called database for restricted suppliers and register for the tender defaulters. As things stand there is no one in the register for tender defaulters. The register for the restricted suppliers, people who cannot do business with the state, one or three companies. None of them were authorised by your department. How is it that in the history of these databases your department has never recommended anyone to be blacklisted yet it has been clear since 2012 that the implementing agents have been stealing money fraudulently? Thank you, Chair.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Ndimeng): Thank you, hon House Chair. Thank you, hon Ceza. It is not correct that the department is not interested in fighting corruption. Disciplinary actions have been taken internally with regard to our members of staff who might have omitted or acted against the ethics and the code of conduct.



Secondly, the forensic which was done by the department has been handed over to the Hawks. The indicators as I have said earlier on which were raised and flagged by the Auditor- General were persuaded. That led to the decrease in the



amount. Further and finally, all the implementing agencies that benefited and accrued any financial benefit that was not desirable to them, that money has been recouped. Those are basic signs of the interest of what we want the Community Work Programme to be about, that is, poverty alleviation. Thank you.



Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, please, provide an overview of the selection process that is being followed when appointing an implementing agent, and how have the criteria been updated? Thank you, Chairperson.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Ndimeng): Thank you, Chairperson. That is a new question all together and I will refer it to be deferred. We are not involved as executive in the process of appointing and procurement in nature. But I can refer it back to the department to get all the processes and the steps and return to the hon in the House. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. It reminds me that I must remind members that Rule 142(6) talks about a supplementary question that must arise directly from the



original question. So, let’s take care of that, hon members. Thank you.



Question 784:




House Chairperson, the decision to implement the final offer of 7,5% tabled at the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, PSCBC, was an outcome of a negotiated process.

However, there are ongoing engagements with organised labour unions admitted to the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, PSCBC, on these matters including those facilitated by the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA at the request of government. The trade unions were also engaged on this matter before section 5 of the Public Service Act was invoked. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.



Ms R N KOMANE: Hon Chairperson, Minister, fuel prices have doubled in the past five years. Your government allowed the public transport, in particular rail to collapse. Eskom is targeting 32% tariff hikes. In the recent past, food prices have increased drastically. Statistics SA reported that a year earlier that food basket prices increased by 13,9%. When you say that workers must get 3%, can you tell us how must they



feed their families, travel to work, keep their lights on if they cannot pay Eskom? Thanks Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): As I also want to remind the House and the hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, you are allowed by Rule 1427 because it guides that there cannot be more than one question on the supplementary question. It is also your prerogative to respond.





House Chairperson, may I just reiterate that the increase is not 3% as articulated by hon Komane, but 7,5%. That comes out of the 4,5% which is the cash amount plus the 3% baseline amount and that actually becomes 7,5% increase for the public servants. I would not want to go to the issues of the economy like hon Komane has actually raised. Part of the negotiations also looked at the economic outlook for the country in order for us to manage to come to reasonable conclusions when wage negotiations are actually done. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr T H JAMES: Hon Chairperson, in you acknowledging that the trust deficit is likely to worsen, this merely confirms how collective bargaining with the state has moved to an antagonistic relationship which is unhelpful. This was



outlined in the Medium-Term Budget Policy statement as a risk factor for the country and the economy. Do you believe that government should develop a long-term plan incremental to address the public sector revaluation strategy and that such a plan should seek to jointly address the long debated question of public sector productivity? Thank you, hon Chair.





House Chairperson, yes, hon James, it is important to have a long-term strategy on mutual benefits of peaceful coexistence between labour and state. The strategy should be a joint venture with organised labour which should be realistically analyse and assess the entire value chain to create the balance between the fiscus, the size of the country’s workforce towards realisation of delivery targets and country’s economic outlook. I thank you, House Chairperson.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: Hon Chair, good afternoon to the hon Deputy Minister. South Africa has batted by crisis during the term of this ANC –led administration, rampant corruption, Covid-19 lockdowns and violent looting have all contributed to the biggest economic crisis in modern times. More than 30 million people living in poverty and millions no longer afford to put food on the table. Now with GDP growth projected to slow down



even further in 2023 and with public debt already standing at R4,3 trillion. I am grateful that the Deputy Minister has confirmed that there is a 7,5% increase on the table. How on earth do you justify that? Thank you.





Schreiber, if you listened to me carefully earlier, I actually said this was a negotiated outcome of a process of looking at wage increase. That takes into consideration a whole range of factors including the economic outlook that we are actually attributing to now. To actually say that the ruling party needs to actually be blamed for the economic crisis that is going on – You see, the whole thing about the economic crisis is something that is supposed to be based on something of some kind of an equation that is sensible and not this fire, fire utterances that you always bring to Parliament.



You know, the economy of the entire world has been affected by the Ukraine and Russia war. We are not going to be excluded from what actually affects the entire world but also remember what is important is to put into the basket all factors that affect the economy and the economic growth. All of us, including you of course, making noise, are interested in. We continue to be interested in seeing the economic growth of



this country because it is in our interest to keep the GDP that is high and keep the interests that are low so that we can keep the food basket low for all South Africans to manage lives. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms H DENNER: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy Minister, due to government’s tendency of appointing larger than necessary staff components at higher than average salary packages which has led to the unaffordable wage bill and ultimately the inability to pay demanded wage increases without crippling the first guess. What are government’s plans to reduce the current and future staff component in the public sector, if any? Thank House Chair.





House Chair, government is quite conscious of the fact that we have come to a stage where the wage bill, especially in the previous financial year was actually a challenge. That is why a cash gratuity was introduced instead of a baseline increase. These are some of the things we are concerned as the government and we are actually building measures at looking what to do in order for us to manage to control the wage bill of South Africa. Remember, we always have to take consideration of the position of labour because it is in our



interest to have healthy and happy labour force but also conscious what the country can manage to afford. I thank you Chairperson.



Question 772:




WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hon House Chair, may I at the outset declare that I am outside of the country, but I will try my best to make sure that the access we have is not just limited but we are able to respond to the questions at hand. Our Constitution is and remains the cornerstone for all transformation into a fully non-sexist state, but we are all cognisant that we are far away from this achievement and many challenges need to be overcome, in this regard. Mainly, that of patriarchy which over the decade has become institutionalised at all levels.



The department has developed polices and guidelines on mainstreaming and gender in the entire business of government and at all spheres of the same government. The department is also working in partnership with the district development model, DDM, Unit at the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to facilitate the mainstreaming of the National Strategic Plan of Gender-based



Violence and Femicide and gender, responsive, planning, budgeting, monitoring, evaluation and auditing framework. The department makes use of various inter-governmental relations, IGR, structures when dealing with various stakeholders. This includes the national, the province, the municipalities and other structures of government. The department is currently localising many of these efforts through working with both the Department of Co-operative Governance and Salga. Gender related imputes were also provided into the district development model processes, as a major to minimise fragmentation between all three levels of governance. In fact, we have capacitated over 350 councillors and Salga officials on this intervention of gender responsive, planning, budgeting, monitoring, evaluation, auditing framework and the National Strategic Framework on GBVF during 2022-23 itself.

All these efforts are ongoing endeavors towards promoting nonsexism in our country. I thank you, Chair.



Ms T S MASONDO: Thank you, hon Chair and thank you very much, hon Minister with your answer. In acknowledging the work on building the nonsexist society, the second part of my question unless addressed concretely: What will be the effects of the work already undertaken? One of the biggest challenges we have is the less than the optimal response from the department to



the implementation of the National Strategic Plan on the GBVF. What this tells us is that, there is a systemic challenge that we are likely to discover each time we have to implement the programmes you have outlined. What in your view is responsible for these systemic challenges? Thank you, Chair.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, the department undertakes on an annual bases the analysis of the national department’s draft Annual Performance Plans, APPs, as part of the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation process. In this way, we ensure the inclusion of indicators, targets and the interventions in line with the Grampian framework that has to be included in the planning of all departments. This would in these APPs address us in making sure that we achieve that which we are all yearning for. It is one way of addressing systematic challenges in this regard. As an additional intervention of the department in achieving its efforts, to conduct further information sessions with national departments with the main purpose of strengthening their understanding of the Grampian framework, the NSP and the GBVF and enabling the department to integrate the strategic framework priorities in line with their respective mandates. Thank you, Chair.



Mr L MPHITI: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, your continued failure to attend portfolio meetings in these past couple of months, you’ve missed over ten portfolio meetings. Last week at a Presidential gender-based violence, you failed to answer South Africans on what steps has your department taken in terms of the gender-based violence pandemic that we have in our country. My question is to you in 2019 President Ramaphosa announced that R15 million will be spread amongst three years to establish a national council on GBV. It is now the third year, what exactly has happened to that R15 million that was given to your department? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, there was never an amount of money that was given to the department, but was ring-fenced in our respective departments as in the IMC. So there is no accountability that we have of having taken cash from anywhere else and stashed it somewhere else. We have established the secretariat in the department to try and respond to all that which you are saying. As for the matter, why we have not finalised the council up to now? It has been a process as it has to be in a democratic society. It has even gone through the structures outside government as it should be and we came



back with the same process to Cabinet and it is now in the good hands of Parliament.





Nk N TAFENI: Ngqongqoshe ngisho noMnyango wakho awuphumeli emphakathini ongacwasi ngobulili. Ayikho inqubekela phambili, uma ikhona, izinto ziba zimbi kakhulu, abesifazane bayaqhubeka nokukhishelwa ngaphandle emathubeni okubamba iqhaza ezinkundleni zokuxhumana zokuthatha izinqumo. Kubi kakhulu kuHulumeni waseKhaya ayikho nhlobo inqubekela phambili. Bonke omasipala abasebenzi futhi abesifazane bayahlupheka ngenxa yezinkinga zikaHulumeni waseKhaya ongasebenzi, Ngqongqoshe.

Ngicela unginikeze isibonelo esisodwa nje somasipala waKwaZuly-Natali lapho ngiphuma khona osufeze noma yiziphi izicelo zobulili, ngifuna ukuyobheka ngemuva.





Thank you, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!





Nimbangisa kanjani umuntu ukuthi ubuyaphi? Uyanitshela nje. Lungu elihloniphekile Tafeni angithi uyabatshela.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, may I beg for your indulgence that I respond to this question, which is half new, half full in writing, like I declared at the outset that I am out of the country. I don’t have the gadgets that you would normally have if you are sitting in Parliament. KwaZulu-Natal is part of South Africa and it’s a place where ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! The Minister is on the platform. Proceed, Minister. I am sorry.





WITH DISABILITIES: The matter of GBVF needs families, communities, local municipalities, district municipalities, our provinces, hence before the summit we also had provincial summits so as to prepare for the Presidential Summit. The department will send the information later and we are working with the provinces, particularly KwaZulu-Natal. However, I cannot give the full details as I am sitting where I am sitting, or where I am standing right now. Thank you.





Nk M D HLENGWA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe ngifisa ukwazi ukuthi njengoba abesifazane behlupheka kangaka kukuphi lapho



bebekwe khona eqhulwini ukuba banikezwe imisebenzi banikezwe nemali yakho konke ukuthi benze nemisebenzi yabo. Abesifazane, eNingizimu Afrika abekho abantu abahlupheka njengabo kuzo zonke izifundazwe. Abantu besifazane abezwela ubuhlungu bokubulawela izingane zabo. Abantu besifazane abezwela ubuhlungu kudlwengulwa izingane zabo kodwa angiboni ukuthi lo Mnyango unyakaza uthini. Ngiyabonga.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, let’s just retreat that which we know that our chief mandate is for advocacy. All departments of government are to respond to the needs of all South Africans, hence the first question that referred to the Constitution. We are accountable, all of us, and all the departments to make sure that the life of women is made easier. None other than the President said, it is not women who invite the killing, the maiming, the raping and all those bad things to themselves. In fact, the departments like homes are made, what they are because of women. We will continue to advocate for women. We will not stop, we will not complain, but we also have in pillar 5 of the NSP through the President established, WECONA, a women co-operation on national scale on opening up ...





...amasango ...





 ...opportunities for women to get access to economic empowerment and in particular financial empowerment. So, I agree with mam’uHlengwa and we all need to stop pointing a finger somewhere so that we don’t leave anyone behind, particularly the point I agree with you that women make more than 51% of this country and the continent I say, as the first lady of Namibia had said, we need to keep going and never give up. Resilience should keep us going, but please men and women of South Africa ...





...masibambisaneni ...





 ... so that women get their rightful share because women fought for freedom.



Question 758:




you, House Chair. The response by the President, Cyril



Ramaphosa, to the recommendations of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into allegations of state capture, corruption and fraud, was submitted to Parliament on 22 October 2022. This was in line with the directive of the High Court. The President addressed the nation on his response on the evening of 23 October this year. As part of his response, the President announced that, legislative changes will be made to the appointment process on the National Director of Public Prosecution, NDPP.



These changes will aim to address concerns regarding the independence of the NDPP, by introducing greater transparency and consultation in the process for selection and appointments of the NDPP. This will also draw on the process adopted for the selection of the current NDPP in the 2018-19 financial year. In 2018, the President voluntarily elected to subject the appointment process of the new NDPP to public scrutiny and the expertise of an independent panel. It should be noted that, the National Prosecution Authority Act Number 32 of 1998, gives the President the authority to appoint the NDPP without stipulating any condition when exercising his authority.



The President invited a number of independent legal and public institutions to assist in the identification and selection of suitable candidates for the position of the NDPP. These organisations and institutions then nominates senior legal practitioners to serve on a selection panel. This was checked by the former Minister of Justice, Minister Jeff Radebe. The panel was made up of nominees from the Auditor-General of South Africa, the Human Rights Commission of South Africa, the General Council of the Bar of South Africa, the Law Society of South Africa, the Black Lawyers Association, Advocates for Transformation and the National Association of Democratic Lawyers.



This panel provided a shortlisting of five possible candidates, for the president to make a final selection. The changes to the appointment processes for the National Director of Public Prosecution, is a matter of legislative amendments which falls within the mandate of the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. These legislative amendments to the National Prosecuting Authority Act 94 Number 32 of 1998, are being considered. The relevant discussions and public consultations will be conducted by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development once the draft amendments are prepared.



In ensuring public scrutiny of process, and evaluating the potential partnership within candidates, are matters currently under consideration. The National Prosecuting Authority Act and constitution already provide for the independent and the impartiality of prosecutors who must prosecute without favour, fear or prejudice. This principle will be adhered to when preparing and considering the draft amendments. Further announcement on the proposed changes will be made available in due course. Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The follow-up question that was supposed to be asked by Mr Hlengwa, will be asked by hon Mamu’ Hlengwa.



Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, how has the changes in the Department of National Director of Public Prosecution affected how they are dismissed in that, Parliament has only been involved in one instance of the removal of an NDPP? I thank you.





you, House Chair. Like I have indicated, in 2018, the President opted to make the process of appointing the NDPP and more consultative process, by involving other stakeholders in



the country which I have mentioned. Now, this shows that, there is a willingness to put and give space for other sectors of society to participate in the appointment of the NDPP. What we know is that, in relation to the amendments of the Act that, are still processes which are with the Department of Justice and Correctional Services, which in time, they will be made aware to all of us as the South Africans, so that we can know the process.



What we are appreciating is that, beyond the Act giving the powers only to the President to appoint the NDPP, he has opted to involve other stakeholders which at that time, recommended the five names from which the panel was able to make a decision. This was a personal choice which he has done, to ensure that he gives space to all the South Africans. The recommendations with relation to the amendments of the Act which in time, when the Department of Justice and Correctional Services is done, we will then know, all of us as the South Africans. Thank you.



Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, hon Chair, and thanks to the Deputy Minister for her response. Hon Chair, mine is not a question, but a statement. I want it to be placed on record, our appreciation for the fact that, the President opened up as far



back as 2018. ... [Inaudible.] ... and the expertise of an independent panel with regards to the appointment procedure for the National Director of Public Prosecution. We note that, the Zondo Commission of Inquiry into state capture, has remarked on these processes, and we look forward to the Department of Justice taking this matter further through the legislative amendments. I thank you, hon Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I had something in mind when you said that you wanted to make a statement. Rule 142(5) says that, you can make a statement or express an opinion. So, we pass. Unless the hon Deputy minister wants to comment on that statement.





you for the statement. I will deliver it to the Minister and the President. Thank you very much.



Mr S N SWART: Thank you, hon Chair. Arising to the Minister’s response, in addition to an open and transparent process to appoint the NDPP, to ensure the NPA’s independence, the NDPP’s independence is threatened when the security of tenure is not sufficiently protected. Now, the ACDP believes that this is an aspect that, also needs to be looked at when one considers



that in terms of the Act, the President decides whether to institute a process of removal and appoints an inquiry.

There’s no independent person to chair that panel.



Now, as the removal of the former NDPP, Adv. Pikoli illustrated, the removal process of the NDPP can be abused by the President. Would the hon Minister consider recommending to the Minister of Justice that legislative on amendments be added, to deal with the security of tenure of the NDPP to ensure the independence of the NPA? I thank you.





you, House Chair. The request is noted as such, but I also suggest that, he himself is also at liberty to make those recommendations to the Minister of Justice so that, when the process comes to the conclusion or an end, ... [Inaudible.]

... his contribution in relation to what he has raised. So, what he has said is noted. Thank you.



Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon House Chair, is the hon Minister convinced, that the changes in the processes of appointing the National Director of Public Prosecution is adequate to address the previous dysfunctional NPA actions, when they were set up by the Constitutional Court in 2018,



considering that in a malleable, corrupt and dysfunctional prosecuting authority, the criminals may, and especially those that are holding positions of influence, that they will really, if ever answer for their criminal woes? Thank you, hon House Chair.





you, house Chair. As I’ve indicated, we are all waiting for the draft amendments, which is currently being prepared by the Department of Justice and Correctional Services. I also think that, once the Draft Amendment Bill is given to all of us, we can all be in a position to say whether it is effective or not, and we will then be given an opportunity to make our input.



I also want to encourage us to wait for it, and once the draft amendments are made public to all of us, we will be able to make an input. From where we are standing right now, because we don’t know how far they are and so on, I am unable to say whether it will be effective or not. But I am sure, when the time is right, we will be able to make an input. Thank you.



Question 769:





Thank you, Chairperson. The gratuity allowance is 4,5%. Government made a final offer of an average of 7,5% to the organised labour as parties to the Public Service Co- Ordinating Bargaining Council. The offer made by government did not enjoy the majority support at the council with some of the unions demanding 10% across the board baseline increase.

Parties at the Public Service Co-Ordinating Bargaining Council had agreed to align the negotiations calendar to the government’s planning cycle. The time table for this round of negotiations was agreed to at the commencement of the process. The long-term impact of this approach is to ensure reduced risk to the integrity of the fiscus with properly managed collective agreements that are incorporated into the public finance framework. I thank you, Chairperson.



Dr J NOTHNAGEL: Thank you, House Chairperson. What has he found with reasons for the unfolding salary negotiations and which trade unions in the Public Service sector rejected the 3% wage increase offer including the cash allowance of R1 000 offered, which amounts to another 4% and have gone back to the 10% wage demand after the talks collapsed? Secondly, whether insurgencies have been made in the past to deal with the negotiating cycle in a different manner and over a longer



period? If not, why not, and if so, what are the relevant details. I thank you, Chairperson.





Thank you, House Chairperson. Let me repeat to say cash gratuity is not 4%, but it is 4,5%. Indeed, in the past and even now what we actually work towards is to get a longer kind of a plan that will go over years so that it shouldn’t continue to be a yearly process of negotiating for the salary bill. I thank you, Chairperson.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: Thank you, Chairperson. Before I ask my next question I would just like to point out to the Deputy Minister that there is a fire extinguisher right behind her. While our economy burns, the ANC cadres who kept their jobs during lock down despite not doing any work are now embarking on a strike that will add further misery to the lives of the ordinary South Africans. They are rejecting an already unaffordable 7,5% increase and are demanding 10%. They are trying to, in fact, blackmail South Africa into 10% increase our country cannot afford. Will the Deputy Minister today unequivocally condemn the selfish leaders of this irresponsible strike for the harm they are planning to inflict on our economy? Thank you.





Thank you, house Chairperson. Indeed, because he is forever going like fire, fire! That’s why it’s good to have identified a fire extinguisher.



Let me say that it is within the rights of the workers to, when they have discontent to actually express it and if they want to take actions like a strike it’s allowed. This is what the constitutional democracy is all about. We are not going to come with an approach that almost have to thwart whatever ideas and feelings they have because for us the workers matters and the workers come first. Thank you, Chairperson.



Ms C C S MOTSEPE: “Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo” [Thank you, Chairperson]. Deputy Minister, we know that the National Treasury’s economic recovery plan written by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, IMF, consultants said that the public wage bill is the major driver of the fiscal deficit. Is this 7,5% wage increase coming from the National Treasury, and were you told that this is non-negotiable by the Minister of Finance and the National Treasury no matter what challenges? Hon Ceza has mentioned it earlier on. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.





Thank you, House Chairperson. I think what needs to be noted is that the gratuity amount has always been there. What we are actually doing is that the 4,5% is to do an addition. The addition is 3%. Like I said, it has been a negotiated process. It is what it has been negotiated through the Treasury because it is always important that when you deal with money matters you bring into play the Treasury so that the Treasury can put a picture of what the fiscus of the country is all about and whatever conclusions you will be reaching will be affordable by the country.



Indeed, I hear what you are saying about the role the public spending is playing in terms of the fiscal framework. It is things that we are always conscious about when we do the economic outlook. We do it because we are supposed to be rated by the rating agencies. What is also taken into consideration is the public spending by the country. That put us on the positive or the negative. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The collapse of collective bargaining betrayed the tenure of the Constitution which empowers trade unions, employers and employer organisations to engage in collective bargaining. This failure



has resulted in endless strikes which in many cases are meant to serve as catalyst in eroding stubborn deadlocks in wage negotiations. With this in mind, has time not arisen for the government, especially in the public sector, to design dispute resolution channels even before a matter is brought before the relevant bargaining council? Thank you, Chair.





Thank you, House Chairperson. I have earlier indicated that we have also decided to take the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, route. Section 5(1)(i) of the Public Service Act has also been invoked by the Minister because it is within the Minister’s powers to take the route when there is a problem that has to do with wage agreements. I thank you, Chairperson.



Question 789:




Chairperson, the question that has been asked is: What are the reasons that he did not ensure that Cabinet, in drafting its plan to implement the recommendations of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry ... Due process regarding criminal activities in the public service unearthed by the Judicial



Commission of Inquiry into allegations of state capture is within the purview of state security apparatus.



Legislation governing the filling of posts in the public service are as follows: the Labour Relations Act, LRA, section 5, which is about protection of labour rights of public servants and jobseekers in the public service; the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, section 29, which looks at basic conditions of employment of public servants, in tandem with public service regulations; the Employment Equity Act, section

5 to 8, which focuses on unfair discrimination, medical testing, psychological testing; the Pubic Service Act of 1994, which focuses on the provision of organisation and administration of the public and collective agreements, determinations and directives that are utilised in terms of filling positions within government.



This will assist hon Schreiber to understand how positions are filled with the public service. There is not really any way in which we can be in a position to do the so-called cadre deployment, which you always come to the House with and allude to. No matter what answer we give, we keep on coming back to it. I don’t know what the motive is, but of cause, when to comes to Offices of politicians, when comes to the Offices of



the Ministers, we cannot be in a position to come in with the members of the DA; we have to come in with the members of the party we belong to.



This is probably what worries you, which you call cadre deployment. It is about having support. That is about the party that is supposed to roll out its mandate within government.



In summary, the intention of recruitment is governed by the principles of transparent, fair and competitive processes, which should result in the appointment of the most suitably qualified persons, who are fit and proper. Administrative processes in the public service are legislated and prescripts are clear as to how appointments are to be effected.



Additionally, it should be noted that section 1951 of the Constitution stipulates that public administration should be broadly representative of South Africans. That is why we don’t exclude any South African. When we recruit, we take the best South African on board, with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past. I thank you.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, now, I obviously know that the Deputy Minister is not a member of Cabinet, but I would like to inform her that on 19 October, Cabinet formally adopted DA policy when it approved the new framework for professionalisation of the public sector. The framework issues an explicit policy ... Chair, please.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I want to hear what he is saying.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: It is very interesting. I promise you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The Deputy Minister would like to hear what he ... Don’t worry, the clock has been stopped. Just please, allow him to proceed.



Dr L A SCHREIBER: Chair, the framework, which is based on DA policy issues an explicit policy directive to the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, and to this Parliament, to ensure that deployment practices are, and I quote: “ditched in favour of merit-based recruitment and selection systems, which it regards as key in building a capable, ethical and developmental state, and is also key in



contributing towards changing a surging negative public perception about employment practices in the public sector”.



The framework also correctly points out that recruitment and selection practices based on deployment have gained notoriety, which has formed something sinister, and some even question their constitutionality related to the principle of equality. And they may have a point, if deployment practices are to be looked at from the perspective of section 1973 of the Constitution.



Now, Minister, given that your own Cabinet has now officially adopted DA policy to ditch cadre deployment, while even admitting that this practice is likely unconstitutional, why on earth is the same Cabinet still opposing the DA’s court case to abolish cadre deployment and declare it unlawful?

Thank you.





Schreiber, I do understand your ambition to rule through the backdoor. There is no way that the whole Cabinet can approve what is called the DA policy. Here, we are running government in Parliament. For us, every idea that can steer the country forward is very important.



I wonder why there was so much interest, to the extent that the DA was asking questions about the framework every week and asking the same questions - the written replies. You will not believe the number of written relies that the DA is sending to government departments. In actual fact, you are trying to run your own side government, outside government. I actually think that this is ... You should monitor, but let it not take all time of the public servants who are supposed to be doing work, to deliver the mandate.



Let me just remind you that there is no way of running government through the backdoor. This policy framework has been adopted by Cabinet, because Cabinet has helped to develop it. And we are developing it, just to shut you down. Maybe the frustration is that we shutting you down now. I am happy you are now accepting the whole thing of cadre deployment.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order!





Julle sal hierna praat, nie nou nie.


Ms T MGWEBA: Hon House Chair, in welcoming the response of the hon Deputy Minister, we need to say that it is not the first time in the NA, and by not less than the President, that this



has been explained to the DA, who seems to suffer from selective amnesia. As the ANC, we are clear that the recruitment and the appointment procedures that are governed by the Constitution, law and policies are being adhered to. Where incongruences arise, there are laws and regulations to deal with it. That is not the ANC cadre deployment committee. Deputy Minister, do you not believe that the fundamental problem is that the DA is unable to appreciate a constitutional principle of transformation and process of appointments, and that it thus results in their fishing expedition to accuse the ANC? I thank you.





Chairperson, the public sector has clear recruitment, pre- entry, election processes that do not include any reference to political parties, deployment committees. I don’t understand how the DA manage to find its way to Luthuli House.



The professionalisation framework approved by Cabinet provides for measures to tighten pre-entry requirements and improve effective recruitment and selection processes that inform the meritocratic appointments at all levels, with a special focus on the middle and senior management levels. The executive authorities will remain responsible for recruitment of HODs,



DGs and municipal managers, where necessary, utilising experts from various sectors of society with relevant technical expertise, knowledge of the sector or department or institution to form part of their selection panels.



This will enable the executive authority and municipal councils to run rigorous selection and recruitment processes, supported by experts who can technically access the suitability of the shortlisted candidates. I thank you.



Ms H DENNER: House Chair, in 2019, the President promised lifestyle audits for public sector employees to combat fraud and corruption in the public sector. The department however confirmed to the portfolio committee that this process has still not started and that, in fact, the guide to lifestyle audits is only now being finalised. We are already three years down the line and the term of the Sixth Parliament is almost over. This process is clearly not being taken seriously. Why is this process not being prioritised? Thank you.





House Chairperson, I think this question from the hon member is outside the question that is being posed, to be responded to today. Remember, the lifestyle audit framework was only



approved in April this year. So, it is an unfolding process. If I have to remember ... You are now asking me a question that I did not look into, as to how far it is.



In the previous sitting, we have indicated that there are departments that have already started rolling out lifestyle audits. So, this is the situation. It is going to be a process that will be unfolding and one thing that we need to continue to stress is that we are very serious about fighting corruption, especially amongst the officials and public servants. They must be allowed to live within their means, without any corrupt activities. I thank you.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I must agree with you that, in an ideal world, yes, politicians and political parties do not interfere when it comes to employment and deployment. You are correct that in terms of legislation there is no provision, but we cannot run away from the fact that in all spheres of government, which ever political parties, wherever they govern, they are influencing the decision as to who they should employ. And we know the obvious reasons for that.



Now, given the fact that the state capture report highlighted some of the weaknesses in the state - I will not call it cadre deployment - of employing or deploying people that are aligned to organisations with a certain interest, what would you do to try and prevent this, so that we have an ethical public sector that people are employed based on their expertise, their capacity, their skills and the integrity, rather than because of organisations or persons that they may know with influence? Thank you.





House Chairperson, hon Shaik Emam, I think, earlier, I have actually mentioned the professionalisation framework that hon Schreiber wants to own as a DA document, which is a framework that will professionalise the public service. This document is going to strengthen existing public service regulations, because we have the regulations for recruitment, selection and appointment of public servants. However, the regulations need to be strengthened, to the extent that there would not be room for any interference. If ever there has been at some stage what people think could have been executive authority interference, there will not be any room for that.



Therefore, we always do to try and run a clean government, so that all the job opportunities are open to all South Africans. There will be selection processes that are fair, to give equal opportunities for everyone who wants work in the public service. By the way, we encourage that it becomes a career of choice for a lot of South Africans. For now, we have a lot of vacant positions that we do not have funding for, but we strive to try and bring every South African who is interested in the public service to come and work, regardless of their colour, creed, race, sexual orientation. Thank you.



Question 775:




WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, House Chair. Yes, there is some level of improvement in the quality of life and employment opportunities for persons with disabilities. We are, however, progressing slower than we would have love to, and, therefore, there is a need to upscale and intensify programmes to ensure that persons with disabilities access economic opportunities including employment. The department undertook a process to ensure that the annual performance plans, APPs, of departments are disability inclusive and, furthermore, monitors the implementation of the White Paper on the rights of persons with disabilities. The response shows slow progress and,



therefore, there is a need to employ more interventions to assist departments in this regard.



On youth, there is some level of improvement on the quality of life of employment of young people in this country. The Sixth Administration came into office as you may recall in 2019, and has been faced with several external challenges which includes coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, pandemic, the July 2021 unrest and devastating floods in KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape. Despite these setbacks, the government has achieved the following for youth employment under the banner of the Presidential Youth Employment intervention which is a priority programme for this Sixth Administration. 2,9 million young people have been registered as youth platform and 558 opportunity of our partners are leasing opportunities on the platform. 358 738 young people are securing earning opportunities on South African, SA, Youth. 69% of the opportunities are filled by young women.



30 735 young people received nonfinancial support from the National Youth Development Agency, Nyda, and received support from the Department of Small Business Development. 7 530 received financial support with 75% of these beneficiaries residing in their own townships on rural areas. 287 000 young



people having been placed as teachers assistants and general assistants. The social employment fund has employed 25 000 young people. The revitalised youth service has taken the

42 000 young people who are earning an income growing their skills and employability and making an impact in their communities. 3 000 graduates have been employed as graduate assistants, 26 public universities are there to address graduate employment. 215 interns have been employed in the Department of Employment and Labour centres. 1 650 Enviro Champions are working in the Water Research Commission programme.



The latest Quarterly Labour Force Survey results suggest that the number of employed young people has increased for a second quarter in a row. This has been the highest in the past two years. This slight of bounce-back is a cause for cautious optimism as employment remains considerably lower than the time of the pre-lockdown ... employment ... thank you. [Time expired.]



Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, House Chairperson and thank you, hon Minister, for your reply. According to Statistics, Stats, South Africa youth unemployment in South Africa is at 66,5%. No society can expect to grow or thrive when the vast majority



of its young people are out of work. It is reported that


370 000 jobs were created in the first quarter of 2022, but we are not told how many of those jobs created when to youth of people living with disabilities. Furthermore, 3,7 million young people from 15 to 24 years are not in employment, education or training. Less than 1% of those employed by the civil service are people living with disabilities although people living with disabilities make up about 7% of our population.



What is the Ministry of Women, Youth and Persons living with Disabilities in the Presidency doing with respect to encouraging other departments to make our youth and people living with disabilities more employable? For example, by ensuring that children with disabilities receive decent schooling and that youths who are not in employment, education or training have the opportunity to take up apprenticeships.

Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon House Chair and hon Meshoe. We have ended our freedom 28 years ago. We have never been found claiming that we will have resolved all our problems in that period of time. We were the first to come out to say that



youth unemployment is a problem. The economic situation that South Africa is undergoing post-Covid is global. As indicated in my inputs, improving the quality of life of disabled people, youth and women and advocating for their advancement is what we do daily - advocacy for the most vulnerable in our society. Therefore, all the programmes we provide are to improve the quality of life of these vulnerable members of our society that I’ve referred to.



However, as you’ve indicated that the quality of life has international indicators, therefore, we need to take a whole government and society approach to improve the quality of women, youth and persons with disabilities. What is key is to implement the programmes for social cohesion and nation- building that starts from our families, our communities, our smaller municipalities, our districts and our provinces and all stakeholders including the church.



Ms C M PHIRI: House Chair, it’s hon Phiri, I’m willing to take the question, and can I proceed. Indeed, we conquer that there is a justification for a standalone history of women, youth and persons with disabilities to fulfil advocacy, mainstreaming, monitoring and evaluation role. As part of monitoring and evaluation in the department the ANC believes



that quality of life should be measured ... [Inaudible.] ... while quality of life is significantly impacted employment. Is it not be indicator, given ... [Inaudible.] ... deals with very vulnerable groups? Can we get an indicator that the department is seriously looking into aspects of quality of life under its mandate which if not addressed can lead to dissolution and an inability to share and identify with constitutional project of construction, a democratic society. Thanks, House Chair.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, House Chair. As I indicated before and agreeing with the hon Phiri that we should not think that hiding the weaknesses that are impacting on the global scale, it’s a way to go. Our way to go as I indicated before is to continue, yes, having this advocacy, monitoring and evaluation and making sure that the quality of these vulnerable people in our society are taken care of. Therefore, all programmes we provide are to improve the quality of women, youth and people with disabilities. However, as you have indicated the quality of life has international indicators.

Therefore, we need to take a whole government and society approach to improve the quality of life of our people.



What is key is to implement the programmes for social cohesion, nation-building and that starts from what I said earlier on, the church, while it would have begun at home. I thank you.



Mr S NGCOBO: Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, your department has failed to prioritise issues facing persons with disabilities and young people. It has failed to prioritise the development of a Disability Rights Bill. The department has also been consistently understanding in programme of its annual performance plan, which is dedicated to promoting and protecting the rights of persons with disabilities. My question to you Minister is, what steps has your department taken to ensure that the money allocated for the upliftment of persons with disabilities and the youth in your department is used effectively in the current financial year? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you. Let me say that once again, as I repeat what we’ve said before that it cannot be true that the department has failed our people with disabilities. It is the responsibility of the entirety of government to make sure that that which has been put in the APPs of all the departments get at the end implemented. The department does not have a



separate budget which deals with what you had asked, but we have a mandate to advocate for the people I had referred to, our vulnerable people in our society. As I repeat, advocates for as we work together with the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, and others and also the Presidential working group on persons with disabilities. We have policies approved by Cabinet for disabilities, what remains is government departments to make sure that we reach out, indeed, and implement. Before the Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Summit of the President, we had a summit of the Women Economic Assembly, Wecona, which focuses on women, but also we will in this coming month of December have a special economic summit for people with disabilities so that they also get their day in the sun. They live amongst us and they are our own people. We also work with all the departments of government, but especially Social Development Department to make sure that we do not hide, but we come out and implement that which has to be implemented. [Time expired.]



Ms Y N YAKO: House Chairperson, if I may, may I take up the question? Thank you. Minister, there is no need for a standalone Ministry. When we arrived in Parliament in 2014, we did a thorough assessment of Cabinet and we told you that you don’t need a standalone Ministry for economic development



women, youth and people with disabilities and was no justification for why you need separate Ministries for energy and minerals. We even told you that you don’t need Public Enterprises Ministry, but you don’t listen. We said to you that each department sphere of government and municipality must integrate always to improve the quality of life and employment opportunities for youth and persons with disability, but you failed to do this. Have you done anything to get a proper assessment of how government as a whole can integrate this work instead of a Ministry that has proven to be useless? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, let me say that we are not about to get tired of advocating for the vulnerable people or part of our society because that would be unfortunate. We agree that there should be mainstreaming, but we want to ensure that we continue the advocacy and monitoring and evaluation going so that it doesn’t come into one space.

During the Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Summit everybody said what they had to say, and I had listened to people from outside including the First Lady of Namibia saying that South Africa is one country that can come out and deal with that which had to be dealt with – the way we did. Therefore, all



these the institutionalisation is key for advancing the need of the vulnerable.



I’ve said earlier on that we have just embarked on looking at the APPs of all departments to make sure that at the end of the day when they account to Treasury on what they’ve done with the money, the money follows the actions that they would have undertaken. Our department regulates the vulnerable and priorities across government and will continue doing so working with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. I thank you.



Question 765:




AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, the Department of Cooperative Governance supports 30 municipalities in various areas of improvement. For example, record management which has been founded by the Auditor-General for municipalities to be wanting data management systems to address inaccuracies and incomplete billing. For example, 10 municipalities that we were assisting with the water costs services. We might not be able to increase due to limited capacity that the department has to roll out to all the municipalities that are affected by these areas.



We appreciate that there are more of them than the 40 or so that we have indicated here. But it is on the basis of the capacity that cooperative governance has. So the audit outcomes illustrate out of these inputs the gradual improvement with 141 municipalities having received unqualified audit in financial year of 2021 with an increase of the 126 which was in 2019-20 financial year, 41 of these unqualified with no findings were also an increase from the previous financial year 30.



There are also congruent department’s own findings with regard to functioning municipalities. We have increased the stable municipalities from 16 to 30, and the number of medium risk municipalities have increased from a 111 to 107. However, there is – and we admit as a department - that there is a need for the department with the number of dysfunctional municipalities. Hon members would recall that our 2021 report on state of local government indicated 64 dysfunctional municipalities. At the time of this review we had an increase of two and we are sitting at 66. Thus the department is accelerating its effort at guiding and building the capacity on how to ensure that we build an ideal municipality, which is a place of work to live and play for all our societies. Thank you.



Mr O M MATHAFA: Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your reply, and we welcome the improvements that you have indicated in the improved audit outcomes. According to the revelations of the Auditor-General’s report, municipalities spend

R1,2 billion annually on finance consultants, whilst at the same time paying R10,4 billion in salaries to staff employed within their finance department. This demonstrates the ineptitudes that many of our municipalities have. Focusing on strengthening financial management in local government, what corrective measures is the Minister taking to ensure competent financial officers are appointed, who are able to do the work that they have been employed to do and minimise the outsourcing of financial services? House Chair, I thank you.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, as indicated earlier on, the department has identified key of the areas in municipalities that needs support. One amongst them is the area that hon Mathafa has raised with regard to municipalities. But we have put, as Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the checking and monitoring mechanisms into these interventions and to also look into water services

... [Inaudible.] ... and for the provision ... [Inaudible.]


... which includes our provincial Cooperative Governance and



Traditional Affairs are aligned with municipalities with their improvements and their implementations plan. This we do with the hope that at a provincial level and also at a national level, all the municipalities that are assigned to it will be able to respond to the plans that have articulated by the department and the capacity development that Salga gives to deal with municipalities and their challenges.



We are hopeful - as I have indicated - that in the increase of the medium to risk municipalities and the stable municipalities have shown an increase and all such municipalities have been beneficiaries to such a programme that I am talking about, but also coupled with the Municipal Finance Management Framework of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA of National Treasury. An identification of dealing with what the Auditor-General then says it’s a vacancy of capacitated staff in financial management to be able to reduce the issue of consultants. We then developed the framework, one for selection but also to capacitate small and medium municipalities which are unable to attract skills because of the funding model. Thank you very much.



Ms E R J SPIES: Deputy Minister, it has been three years since Minister Dlamini-Zuma was appointed as the Minister. In this



period, she and the Deputy Minister has promised that legislation will be brought to Parliament, that deals with interventions in municipalities, including the powers and duties of so called administrators. Why has it taken so long for the Minister to keep her promise?





AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, if there is one area that the department has done well has been the overall improvement of the amendments. System Act, Structural Act, a Code of Conduct for Councillors, the improvement of Municipal Property Rates Act, there are many. I counted four already.

Besides even the framework of professionalising local government, which has been finalised as well. So, it cannot only be a promise of three years. They actually passed through here and were signed by the President. Structural Act started on the 1 November. Systems Act was promulgated in August 2022. So what are the issues of the Minister having promised to move the regulations and not implement it. It is there.

Implementation – yes - the one that you are referring to even in the competency framework is only five days old. But it even already has our MSPI plans roll out to the 66 municipalities which are dysfunctional. That is delivery.



Mr K CEZA: Deputy Minister, we know that a number of dysfunctional municipalities are well over 60. Majority of municipalities in local government are dysfunctional and we know that because just beyond audit reports, our people are not getting services. They tell us every day that they do not have water, they do not have electricity, waste is not collected, potholes are not fixed. But the matter that must worry all of us is that as the state of municipalities continue to deteriorate, indigent households are not receiving free basic services, and you do not talk to that in your response. That must receive free basic services. Only

2 million or so are registered in municipalities database. We know that there is no implemented bull plan to solve the crisis of local government if we do not revive the division of revenue collected ... [Inaudible.] ... Give municipalities more resources. How are you going to intervene to ensure that database of indigent households is up to date and ensure the delivery of free basic services? Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.]





AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, the Minister of Finance when he was delivering his Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, did indicate the review of local government funding



formula which categorises 167 small municipalities and rural. They are unable to enrol further in this instance – indigents

- because of the affordability and the bucket of what the finances they get. Currently, the system we have punishes small and poor municipalities to be extremely poor. The funding model will therefore unlock quite a lot of funding. Of course, to the availability of what the state has, so that the poor and the vulnerable are rolled out. We should have actually started that. It can only be a caring government that prescribes a policy of giving 6 000 free litres of water to a vulnerable adult. Allow us then, in line with our positive policy to roll it further to all our needy people because its design was simply to alleviate poverty of those we live with and those we know.



Mr K CEZA: The White Paper missed ... [Inaudible.]



Mr I M GROENEWALD: House Chairperson, one recurring theme in the Auditor-General’s audit outcome for 2021 is the lack of consequence management and accountability. The CMA in terms of section 1 highlights this again, the lack of accountability and consequence management, and the fact that the employees in municipalities are turning council what to do or blatantly ignore council resolutions because nothing will happen to



them. This leads to no respect in government systems and lower public value and trust, and the Deputy Minister should know, she was the mayor of Polokwane once. The ... [Inaudible.] ... like the System Act and the Structural Act that you earlier mentioned is only as good as it is being implemented and it is currently not happening. What insurance will you give the people of South Africa that section 32 subsection (6)(7) of the Municipal Finance Management Act will be adhered to and implemented in local government? Thank you, Chair.





AFFAIRS (Ms T Nkadimeng): House Chair, it is not true that nothing is happening. In what I have articulated as the formation and the legislation of ... [Inaudible.] ... Acts only have happened on the first to ensure that its obligatory for council on a quarter basis to take ... [Inaudible.] ... reports and act on them. But it also mandates in the Act the speaker who carries the responsibility and the Auditor-General can issue a material regulatory certificate to ensure that such a report have been dealt with. All the ... [Inaudible.]

... Acts have been formed, all the ... [Inaudible.] ... Acts have been trained. It also regulates the office of the Chief Whip for the first time to be able to be the custodian of what happens in council and bears responsibility for what the role



and responsibility of oversight for council would be. But it further sanctions on the regulations which the Minister promoted on the 1 July 2022, on how council needs to be able to be responsible for its oversight role. In our MSIP report, we then on a quarterly basis demands reports from council in the chairs of ... [Inaudible.] ... Act. Hence the training that has happened to fit them. If the system chance and let’s see what it will produce because only the amendments, you are talking about are even less than a year in implementation. But we have all rolled out to ensure that all is in place and it happens. Thank you very much.



Question 773:




AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, you really need a break, a special council meeting held on 13 October 2022 resolved to source the services of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, as we know it, and the national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to support the municipality to accelerate the expenditure as in the question.



A multisectoral team was also established by the Eastern Cape Cogta on 19 October 2022, comprising of technical



representation from Misa, the national Cogta, Amathole District Municipality, and the Department of Water and Sanitation who are actively engaged to monitor the implementation of the Amathole District Municipality’s infrastructure grant.



The development of the roadmap to accelerate project implementation is underway and is expected to be completed within the current financial year, 2021-22.



Beyond the protests, there are government challenges that are now in the process of being addressed. In addressing these challenges, a new troika has now been installed in August 2022 because there were governance challenges, and the provincial Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has seconded a senior manager to act in the position of municipal manager, who commenced his duties only now on 01 November 2022. With these, we therefore hope that the spending on the grant will then be accelerated. Thank you very much.



Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair and Deputy Minister, the Amathole District Municipality, the water and infrastructure crisis there is a monument to inefficiency. There is a complete breakdown on various levels of governance. This now



has the potential to almost rob a million South Africans of their community development grant. This is a R493 million grant in one of the poorest areas in our country and losing this grant will impact on families and their survival as the lack of clean water and sanitation services continue to drive down the standard of living in an already impoverished area. The inability to spend R1 million in an area so desperate for aid has a cruelty to it. There are multiplicity of water crisis in various municipalities across the country, from Cape Town to Johannesburg and to Nelson Mandela Bay. These have brought about massive economic ramifications. It all depicts an image of a collapsing infrastructure, an inefficient leadership and lack of skills.



With this grant’s main purpose being the creation of water and sanitation in an area that has little to no infrastructure of sort, the loss of this grant is a brutal reminder that we are really the most unequal country in the world. In addition, it is a monumental form of disrespect to the taxpayers who hold out hope that the money is going to be spent uplifting these communities. Can the Deputy Minister advice on the interventions by his department if there is a failure to implement these projects and other projects like them, and



whether the Minister will invoke the powers in terms of section 139(7) of the Constitution? Thank you.





AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much, hon Herron and thank you House Chairperson, I think I have already responded on the governance matters that issues have been resolved and some are in process. Those have had a negative impact on the spending on this particular grant. We do care for the 900 000 people that live in that municipality. We want to ensure that they get all the services that this money is intended to achieve.



The multisectoral task team also in place and we are confident that whatever the challenges of skills and capacity that we identified, they are going to be responded to by this particular team towards spending this money within the current financial year. Obviously, with all the plans that are in place, we will be able to push that this happens.



On section 139(7), we sparingly use it because the capacity of the municipality is what we are now focusing on so that they are able to discharge the responsibilities and their mandates. Section 139 has been used by the provinces in many areas.



Currently, section 139(7) is now applicable in two municipalities – is it three now? – in Lekwa, Mangaung, and Enoch Mgijima. We are testing those three models from the national perspective, and with the record and the achievements, we will then be able to intervene in those municipalities. But we also have not agreed to intervene in another municipality called Ditsobotla because things have collapsed to the latter and we didn’t want the national department and national government ... because it is a resolution Cabinet to go and inherit something that we have seen that it is no longer in existence. Wherever the challenges are, then we are able to go and save and help our people, we will then invoke the 139(7) sparingly and in accordance to the objectives that we have set for ourselves. Thank you very much, House Chair.



Ms P P XABA-NTSHABA: Thank you, House Chairperson, Minister, the state of affairs at the Amathole District Municipality ... if you examine the Auditor-General’s report of March 2021, it will tell you that financial statements submitted for audit didn’t reconcile with the general ledger. The general ledger didn’t not have the opening balances. The municipality purchased an accounting system that has not been set up in a way that supports the accounting processes. The municipality



officials do not understand how to use the system which affects the accurate billing of service charges.



The audit opinion was a disclaimer on the financial statement as a whole. The Equitable Share grant funding for the year amounted ... [Time expired.] ... Thank you, House Chair.





AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much. Hon Xaba- Ntshaba, unfortunately you could not go to the question, but I will just make a comment: firstly, section 139(5), which is an intervention has been instituted in the municipality to help them on the financial recovery plans; secondly, the Cogta has also instituted what we call Municipal Support Intervention Plans with the Eastern Cape province, also called section 154 in line with the Constitution to support the municipalities across. In the Amathole District municipality, we had to add that particular support to ensure that they are able to turn things around; thirdly, the disciplinary board on issues of finances that you have raised was established so that it can investigate any cases of financial misconduct and deal with those who might have been involved. The systems of delegation and litigation strategy has now been approved by the council so that we should begin to ensure that we rescue this



situation; and lastly, the internal audit plan of the municipality has also been approved by the executive management committee. It will also go and deal with the financial statements, audits, etc, that you raised. Thank you very much.



Ms E R J SPIES: House Chairperson, that’s Spies.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): My apologies.



Ms E R J SPIES: I hope this is the last time, House Chairperson. Spice is s p i c e. Thank you. [Laughter.]

... I hope my time is not deducted.



Hon Deputy Minister, if district municipalities like Amathole cannot even spend their conditional grants, what hope does the so-called District Development Model – the signature policy of this department – offer in terms of improved governance and service delivery?





AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): If you compare all other districts, they are doing well and there is hope. I think we can’t just choose one that has its current challenges. There were issues



of governance. We have responded to them and are now dealing with them. There was a lot of interference in the municipality and we are also dealing with them. There will be a few of such municipalities that are there. You can’t say out of 44 districts, when only a few of them are having challenges that we are dealing with, then we say there is no hope for the District Development Model. Go to the performing districts and see the hope that is there. I was at Harry Gwala last week, you visit it in KwaZulu-Natal, make a comparison of a District Development Model at work. Obviously, minus those that are few, you’ll then realise that there are quite a number of municipalities that are like the District Development Model.

We are instituting the District Development Model like the Harry Gwala District Municipality. I think there are quite a number a number of them. I am just quoting this one because I visited it last week. Look the their plans, strategies and how they are planning to revive the cities and the towns, how they are going to be involved in the economic activities, and this is what the champions, who are Ministers and Deputy Ministers, who are active and alive in those municipalities ... you’ll find that the results are different. I think there is hope in the District Development Model. It is the way in which we need to go and co-operate as government. Thank you.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, Hon House Chair, Al Jama-ah is very happy that the Deputy Minister cares about the 900 000 former Transkei residents who needs water. They provide the first liberation fighters and are the last to get water. I have been at the site of the dam, there is not a brick to be seen. I am very happy to know that the Minister says that the grant will be spent during this financial year, in the next three to four months.



I want to know from the Minister, when the first brick will be laid? Thank you very much.





AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): The first brick, okay. I think the programme is in action as I said. Probably, the first brick is now on because Misa, which is a lead agency of the department is actively involved on site. I haven’t visited the site recently, but definitely is laid and the money is going to be spent wisely, and ensure that the people access water. Thank you very much for appreciating that we care about the 900 000 people that are there and that’s why I am saying the first brick has been laid. The Misa has a great record of building water sources across municipalities and they are all functional. You can even go to those municipalities. With



them, in charge of that particular project, I have confidence that definitely water will soon be coming to the communities and they will all begin to benefit like the rest of other South Africans. Thank you.



Question 770:




Chair, it is not clear what policy expenditure or identified groups the question is referring to, however, the department produces various reports arising from its regular monitoring and evaluation activities. Such reports can be made available to relevant committee Members of Parliament so that they can be able to do their oversight activities. Thank you.



Ms M M NTULI: Thank you, hon House Chairperson and thank you, Deputy Minister, for the response, the guideline on impact evaluation sets out a fundamental objective of impact planning and impact evaluation management by departments. From the results of these impact evaluations conducted by departments, what is your assessment of whether these are being carried out systematically, and to what extent and what is the quality and learning from these impact evaluations given that we have such serious levels of poor quality of expenditure against government projects?





Chairperson, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has published the guidelines on impact evaluation whose purpose is to assist government departments to effectively plan and manage impact evaluation on their programmes or projects. The department has a responsibility to institutionalise evaluation practices across the three spheres of government and, therefore, it provides relevant support in the development and implementation of departmental evaluation plans and provincial evaluation plans.



Most of the recently completed evaluations under the National Evaluation Plan are implementation or process evaluations to assess the effectiveness of how specific programmes are implemented and whether they're achieving their intended objectives. These evaluations generate recommendations on what must be done to improve implementation and can inform important reforms to relevant policies, and also of the design implementation and funding models. Examples of such recent evaluations include the accommodation provision program under the government, the Immovable Asset Management Act, Operation Phakisa, and the detective services, and this would be the SA Police Service when you look into the Directorate of Crime Investigation Services. The Department of Planning, Monitoring



and Evaluation has not done any assessment lately to determine the extent to which impact evaluations that are being carried out are done systematically and at what quality. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is currently developing an evaluation evidence mapping process which will, among other things, characterise the types of evaluations undertaken since 1994. The process has to date identified about ... Thank you. [Time expired.]





Mnu Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo ngaphambili ...





 ... the portfolio committee received a report from the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation in previous months indicating that the government's apex policy of the National Development Plan was having nowhere near enough impact, and despite previous statements by the Minister that there are isolated spots of excellence in the public sector, I think he and you, Deputy Minister, would be hard pressed to dispute that the ANC’s track record to date has generally been one of maybe good intentions but with poor implementation and that there have been major shortcomings in achieving the sustained impact that reduces poverty and employment and



inequality. The saying goes that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. So






... ngibuza kuwe, Sekela Ngqongqoshe, ukuthi ungavuma na ...





 ... that wherever government policies like BEE and localisation go against the Operation Vulindlela imperative to ease the burden of doing business, to lower barriers to compliance, and to incentivise investments, then those policies should be scrapped as soon as possible.










The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Hon Deputy Minister, if you can try and switch on your video? I am told that now you’ll be able to be seen on the screen and you may respond. Over to you, ma'am.





been switching it off from the beginning. House Chairperson, the National Development Plan 2030, NDP, ... [Interjections.]




The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Deputy Minister, I am requesting you to put it on to see whether it’s ... [Inaudible.] ...





can’t hear me! It’s on, I’ve put it on.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Oh! Okay! So ... hard luck again. Thank you very much. You may proceed.





fine, no problem. ... is left with roughly seven years before its conclusion. What is happening is that this government, which is a progressive government, continues to re-evaluate our policies and assess ourselves to the set targets which are meant to change the lives of our people, addressing unemployment, inequality and poverty. What needs to be done is not the scrapping of the policies, but what needs to be done through the Department of Planning, Monitoring, and Evaluation



is to assess the impact of the policies, identify strengths, bring them to Parliament, and we work on our Acts and legislation so that we can be able to improve the lives.



Scrapping any policy would not necessarily assist but what is needed is that where we see that there are shortfalls, like we are continuously doing and want to thank the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation for the continuous work they're doing to assess the impact of policies which are put in place and Acts to strengthen and not necessarily to scrap down policies. I don't think that it can bring a solution scrapping out rather than solving and tightening up and also to just say that the NDP, especially in this Sixth Administration, even our targets of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework were hit to a certain extent by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic which has also had to inform that we must look into targets of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework and see how we can be able to, with the little time that is left, ensure that we live up to the targets that we set for ourselves in changing the lives of South Africans. Thank you.



Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much, House Chair, Minister, you don't need expenditure review studies to know that a misguided government policy like NDP has completely failed. More than



11 million people cannot find work, and more than 3 million have given up on finding work anytime soon. You have failed to grow the economy. The so-called investment pledges have turned into PR exercises. When you go to the oversight, we don't need any of the reports to tell us that there is no government and there is no service delivery. Do your reports acknowledge that the NDP was misguided and it has failed? Thank you very much.





Chairperson, what we're acknowledging is that there are set targets that we’ve put for ourselves, we could not reach them but there is still time because the NDP has outlined. We continue to assess ourselves as an NDP 2030 documentation ... We have also admitted that in the process, there were factors which have led to us not being able to reach our targets, for example, in this regard, the question of the COVID-19 pandemic. What needs to be done is that we are acknowledging that the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation must strengthen and tighten the work plans and commitments which are done by departments which indirectly will feed into the expectation of what we want to do. We are continuing to fight to ensure, we change, we meet our targets. The Medium- Term Strategic Framework has had to be redefined, we have set new targets because we realised that other factors which were



beyond our expectations had impacted the process but we can take South Africans into confidence that we are continuing to ensure that in other areas we do meet the targets of the NDP and those of the five-year plan that we have set for ourselves. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, I have been informed that the request for the last supplementary question was not submitted.



Question 790:




WITH DISABILITIES: Hon chair, I have written to the executive chairperson of the National Youth development Agency, NYDA, to inquire about these allegations. In this regard, the executive chairperson assured me that in line with the Prevention and Combating of Corruption Activities Act 12 of 2004, the NYDA has maintained the fraud and prevention as well as the whistle blowing policy and the fraud prevention plan.



Accordingly, the public is encouraged to report fraud and corruption to the toll free number which is 0800203240 where all suspicious and corruption activities must be reported to.



All allegations received are followed up and it is necessary to investigate and conclude.



Despite the anonymous tip offs, not following the above process, the chairperson has informed me that the NYDA board of directors resolved to begin the process of the inquiry to ascertain the facts through procuring an independent legal counsel into allegations against the CEO.



To date the board has procured legal and advisory services from an external entity and the processes of concluding and due diligence review which will consider all information and documentation relevant to the whistleblowers’ reports has ensued.



As an executive authority responsible for the NYDA, I am satisfied that the board of directors is seized in accordance with its mandate. I expect that the board will furnish me and the portfolio committee with the interim report setting out the service providers’ initial findings, recommendations and proposed remedial actions upon its conclusion. I thank you Chair.



Mr L MPHITHI: Hon Minister, the NYDA CEO is accused of abusing state resources that benefited associates and spending over R5 million during the lockdown for youth day event in 2020.

The Minister needs to assure young South Africans of whether or not these allegations will be taken seriously and whether the Minister will move to suspend the CEO up until the forensic investigation has been completed?





WITH DISABILITIES: The newly elected NYDA board after receiving the whistleblowing acted swiftly in line with the legislation and have commissioned an independent legal investigation into the allegations.



The board has committed to sharing the report with all the relevant authorities including the portfolio committee. This gives me confidence that allegations of corruption will not go unpunished in the NYDA.



We are not allowed to interfere but we want a transparent process but make sure that the law takes its course and that the guilty go where they belong. I thank you.



Ms G P MAREKWA: Minister, the NYDA is there to mitigate the challenges that are faced by the youth and provide support to qualified beneficiaries mostly residing in either the townships or rural areas. Corruption robs many of opportunities and we welcome that there are corruption prevention strategies within the NYDA.



This being the case, how was it possible that they could not detect the allegations of corruption in the entity and what lessons will be learnt going forward to strengthen these corruption prevention strategies that they have? Thank you Chair.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, let me reiterate what I said earlier on that this is a new NYDA board and they found half if not all the whistleblowing and the allegations on the table and they did not look the other way.



I wrote to them and they responded the way that they did and as I said, the impression I got was that they have no intention to cover up on anything that is unto wards. The board has committed to share the report with all its relevant authorities including the portfolio committee.



This gives me confidence that the allegations of corruption will not go unpunished by the NYDA. I thank you.



Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, with reference to the allegations made by the same whistleblower who outed the CEO of the NYDA pointing out members of your department as also being capture by the CEO and are associates of the CEO, has the department actioned any investigation into your department to filter out the corrupt officials? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: House Chair, we do not want to become what we are not. We are aa law abiding department and we will follow the law. There are institutions that are given the mandate to do things about investigations and so on.



We have today on more than three occasions said that we will as the authority above the NYDA allow this to go unpunished and know that we will not leave this scarce resources to go astray while young people are looking for support.



All I know is that the new NYDA board is not even a year old and we will be watching to see if what they said in response to my letter will come to book. From where I am sitting, I



have no doubt that they know that we are watching. I thank you.



Ms Y N YAKO: Chair, thank you for allowing me to take it. Minister, it is more or less the same question. Minister we are not just talking about allegations of corruption, there is a lot of evidence about a lot of wrongdoings in the NYDA and the obvious things that are supposed to happen are not happening.



We said each municipal office must have an NYDA office, it has not happened, instead the NYDA had turned into the ruling party’s factional deployment body. Have you or anyone in your office gone to the police to open a case, if you do not open a case, who must open a case if you are serious about fighting corruption? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, may I plead through you to allow the investigation to come to its final process before we request us as politicians to be raising fingers and opening up new cases while we are still investigating the ones that are already on book.



Chair, I have said earlier on that this is a new board but they did not say we know nothing about what happened in the past. They continued with their work staring from almost foots toot that which we have inherited, we inherited the good and the bad and we investigate all. Thank you.



Question 777:




WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, may I also join all South Africans to send our condolences to the Mthwa family. And just like all other killings of young women, it hurts and hurts deeply, and that does not exclude executive or otherwise. We hope that young people, especially women, will shape our country moving forward.



I have not personally visited the family of Namhla Mthwa, however, I have been in regular contact with the Premier of the Eastern Cape and they visited the family immediately. We issued a statement because if we were to visit homes on a daily basis we would take 365 days just doing nothing else but visiting homes of victims. But we do part of that with the little or no ... [Inaudible.] ... stuff we have. But we also issue statements where we can, we work with the police, they visit the family and we will monitor. What we promise the



House is that we will continue to monitor the reasons offered by the SA Police Service, SAPS, on this case.



In my capacity as the Chair of the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, we will work together to continuously monitor the developments of this case and inform the family in the process. I thank you.



Ms N TAFENI: Minister, will you admit that, together with the police, you have failed to solve the murder of Namhla Mthwa and are instead hiding behind that treaty made against SAPS investigators?



Namhla’s family is just one of many families that you have failed.



Can you admit that you are failing the families of the victims of murder together with those of gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF, in the whole country? Thank you, Chairperson.





WITH DISABILITIES: Chairperson, let me address the question that just risen that I am not a police officer but I will never sleep nor rest unless we all work together to advocate



and make sure that we leave no stone unturned for all those innocent lives that we have lost. Unfortunately, it happens to be those of women, youth and people with disabilities.



We need to work together as a community to make sure that we don’t look the other way and we find the solutions to this. It’s a shame to South Africans that besides COVID-19, we are busy slaughtering each other. And unfortunately, it’s one way, it’s women who get massacred and not any other way. So, we need to work together, men and women, young and old, to make sure that we put this second pandemic to lie down or to die.

We want women to make contribution to the wellbeing of the economy of this country. I thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, if there are changes on the list, in terms of supplementary question, please advise the front table, it becomes much neater. Thank you.



Ms C M PHIRI: Hon Minister, arising from the case of Namhla Mthwa and many like these, what work, in your department, you are doing to strengthen relations with communities and gender- based violence and femicide organizations in order for such communities and organizations to openly and freely report



cases for gender-based violence and femicide? What is it in plan? How are you going to make sure people are protected and they openly come and report such cases? Thank you, House Chair and Minister.





WITH DISABILITIES: House Chair, this is a self-inflicted pain. When I say that it’s of South Africans who happen to be of another gender on the other people. So, we all have to work together to make sure that we do not look the other way to make sure that nothing ... that we do not get defeated on this.



It’s not money alone, but it’s information sharing and giving our people confidence that, indeed, when we make pronouncements they are carried out. This includes engagements with specific constituencies including the most important men’s group, because they are not all toxic.



In addition, the department has established an end to gender- based violence and femicide collective, which is coasted by government, private sector and civil society including faith- based organizations and traditional leadership to ... [Inaudible.]



The end of gender-based violence and femicide collective and faith-based organizations collective meet on a monthly basis to report on the progress made in the implementation of each pillar of the National Strategic Plan, NSP.



Furthermore, the department has established rapid response teams in districts and municipalities. And this multidisciplinary teams are responsible for educating communities on NSP, responding to cases of gender-based violence and femicide and providing support to survivors and their families. I thank you.



Ms L MPHITHI: Hon Minister, when Minister Cele said that women are lucky to be raped once, women of this country looked to you to defend them and to condemn the comment and you did not.



My question, hon Minister, is: What has your department done, noting the report that the SA Police does not have victim empowerment rooms and support centres within their police stations to support rape victims when they come to report their cases?



What exactly has your department done to navigate that space and ensure that SAPS implements the work of protecting women in this country? Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Chair, we are a nation, to start with, that has not dealt with the healing part post-apartheid, the right way. I think there’s no shortcut, we are going to do that.



Unfortunately, more innocent people are dying and they cannot be protected only by the department of women ... of the vulnerable people themselves.



We work closely with the IMC and the police are part of that IMC as well as the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Public Service and Administration and Finance. They all have to come together but the entirety of government has to really see this as a menace that we all have to put our heads together.



Like I said so many times, hon Mphithi, it needs all of us to not look the other way and work together to put this menace away.



The issue of having victim-friendly rooms in the police stations is not as part of the police report at the GBVF summit.



We are working with other institutions, even those who are sympathisers from outside our country to augment us with funds which we do not have to make sure, because they can see our willingness, that we put a stop to this menace that we find ourselves in. And we haven’t given up, we will overcome this [Time expired.]



Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Minister, following the many publicised murder and rape cases including the Krugersdorp rape, use the murder of Namhla Mthwa, what lesson, if any, has the SAPS learnt with regard to evidence gathering in the rape and murder cases going forward? And how does it plan on addressing its fault? If not, why not? If so, please provide details. I thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Chair, I really sympathise with all the women, youth and persons with disabilities, particularly women victims, who become survivors. But we all know we came out and say we cannot do the work of the police and the police alone



cannot solve all the self-inflicted pains. We need to work together to make sure that we put a stop to this menace, as I said earlier on. I thank you.



During the gender-based violence summit strong pronouncements were made by the Police Minister to strengthen the evidence collection. He went further to even talk of the fact that we had a difficulty on DNA tests. At one stage we heard that in

... 241 000 ... but they had come around and managed to cut that down and that they are left with 71 and we thought by January we will call this history because DNA tests are part of the most crucial evidence that one can put to book to catch the perpetrators. Thank you.



Question 771:




WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities requests procurement plans from provinces on how they are going to use ... [Interjection.] [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPRSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order please, we can hardly hear the Minister.





WITH DISABILITIES: ... as well as share details of bid to specification documents for analysis in order ensure compliance with the issues that we are dealing with particularly sanitary dignitary implementation framework.



This is done ahead of the following year or the year to come. Though the sanitary dignity implementation framework, provinces are obliged to report to the department quarterly in a financial year. There is a written and oral report represented, the latter being presented at the quarterly meeting.



The reporting format includes inter alia; a number of indicators in this instance, some that speak to beneficiaries, learners and targeted learners reached. The number of packs individuals pads per learner, period and distribution etcetera.



In the event of the department needs to follow up to verify, certain facts and information, correspondence is dispatched to project managers for clarity and in certain situations through a director general, DG to DG ... [Inaudible.] ... should the circumstances demand that.



Recently, through the DG to DG correspondence further to the departments ‘interfaces have taken place in the implementing departments, audit committees to see to it that process is well audited. Capacity is rendered to the provinces through workshops in order to improve to the monitoring and the process of evaluation programme.



Eastern Cape, KwaZulu Natal Province have been taken through methodology of application on sanitary dignity monitoring evaluation framework. This will continue to take place in all other provinces, on quarterly basis.



Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much House Chair and thank you, hon Minister for your response. Hon Minister the provision of sanitary pads to girl children means keeping the girl child in school and this should be the same in all provinces, even in our remote areas which are our rural areas. How have provinces that have experienced challenges in the rolling out of sanitary dignity pads improved, particularly in areas that they could not reach? And how has the department collaborated with municipalities to ensure accessibility and effectiveness of programmes since there have been prior challenges in working with our municipalities? Thank you House Chair.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you House Chair and hon Masiko, Northwest Department of Education has improved during the current period by using a more efficient, provincial transversal contract approach with the assistance of the provincial Treasury. This is due to the fact the Department of Education on its own struggled to manage its own procurement process due to human resource capacity challenges.



Further, Northern Cape Department of Education has vastly improved and has covered significantly wider numbers despite having the smallest equitable share allocation.



The only persistent and major challenge that the department has identified in this whole areas and municipalities where rural schools are based, there is absolutely no ways collection and disposal. As a consequence of that schools are left to their own devices, often times having to sort ... [Time expired.]



Mr L MPHITHI: Thank you House Chair, hon Minister it’s being reported that currently sanitary products are being bought by individuals from suppliers and these individuals are buying them repackaging them, rebranding them and then reselling them



to government. When this was raised in the portfolio committee, you undertook to establish a task team that would deal with the findings of these particular issues. Because some of these individuals do have political links to some of the officials within provincial government. And, so can you please explain to us what exactly has your task team found, in terms of the selling of sanitary products by individuals?

Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you House Chair, in the first instance we shouldn’t even have gotten into this quagmire that you are relating. Because we should maybe in the nearest future be focusing on how women could be empowered to be the manufacturers of sanitary dignity themselves. So they would not have to repackage from someone else.



In some provinces, yes you are right, you find that during lunch break, small kids are made to que to receive gifts and some are not even at age where they should be receiving those. So I think the task team, yes you have referred to, it cannot produce result overnight.



But I think the way forward is also find trainers who could help to train women to become their own liberators. So that we do not rely on the others to provide for I would call it a gift. Not everybody gets to be visited by that visitation every month but only girl children but they need support, they need my support and yours.



The results of the task team must come but I think we should


... while waiting to get the report of that, we should also be sourcing. Talking to Treasury to get resources where we can manufacture the small machine that can produce ... Thank you. [Time expired.]



Mrs M D HLENGWA: Thank you House Chairperson, hon Minister whether there has been any consequence management against official by the department in the case of the procurement delays? And when the department doesn’t pay suppliers within

30 days, if not why not? If so, please provide details. Thank you.





WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you MeHlengwa, I think as a member of the portfolio committee, you would have gotten the information earlier. That from Treasury, while we advocated for financial



support for provision of taking care of this challenge of sanitary dignity, the money does not even spend a day, doesn’t even know the door of the department but go straight to provinces.



And provinces decide, even at provinces it doesn’t ... [Inaudible.] ... to say, it will department A or B. The provinces in their own wisdom choose which department will then be the one that to do tenders and do all those kind of things.



So, yes the advocacy, yes the need to support young women came from us but the money goes to the provinces. We now had to find a way we could work with provinces, to make sure that the money is used for what it is intended to.



In our department we pay suppliers within 30 days, but we have very little to supply because many believe that if they go straight to provinces that would be the best way to do it.



No, we have not detained anybody because it has not been direct responsibility for us to handle the resources for sanitary dignity for people. Thank you.



The CHAIRPRSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you very much hon Minister, thank you so much. I have been informed that the request for the last supplementary question was not been received. Hon members, the time allocated for the question has expired outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.






Mr M J MASWANGANYI: Hon House Chairperson, Ministers and hon members, the Minister of Finance, the hon Godongwana tabled the 2022 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, in Parliament on 26 October, in terms of section 27 of Public Finance Management Act and section 7(1) of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act.



The committee received postBudget tabling inputs from Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, and Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC.



Hon House Chairperson, the MTBS, is tabled at the time when the world economy has been hit by successive external shocks of the COVID-19 pandemic, the war between Russia and Ukraine



and climate disasters. These and other factors will slow global growth from 6% in 2021 to 3,2% in 2022 and 2,7% in




South Africa would be adversely affected as it is exposed to the downside of lower global growth. Domestic factors weighing heavily on economic growth include amongst others macro- economic uncertainty, low rates of fixed capital investment deficient and intermittent power generation. Load shedding has serious impact on the economy.



The SA Reserve Bank estimated that stage 4, load shedding cost the economy R773 million per day. Hon House Chairperson, be that as it may, the committee welcomes government’s extension of the Social Relief of Distress Grant for another year.



The committee reiterates its previous position that government should consider the incremental introduction of the Basic Income Grant.



The 2022 MTBPS provides financial support to Denel, SA National Road Agency Limited, Sanral, Transnet and transferring two thirds of Eskom’s debt to the government’s balance sheet. The financial support to the strategic state-



owned entities, SOEs, is very essential. However, the financial backing should be accompanied by solid turnaround plans.



The committee acknowledges that revenue performance has exceeded the 2022 budget estimate. The committee further welcomes government’s commitment to fiscal discipline, however the escalating debt service cost present an escalating risk to the fiscal framework. The committee supports the increased funding on infrastructure spending as it will support the

long-term growth prospects.



The committee also welcomes an increased spending on safety and security, whereby more police officers would be employed to fight crime.



Hon House Chairperson, the committee notes that South Africa still have high levels of debt. The committee reiterates its recommendation that the National Treasury reports quarterly to Parliament, on the effectiveness of its debt management strategy.



With regards to SOE bailouts, the committee recommends that the bailing out of SOEs which is one of the biggest risks to



the fiscus should be subject to stringent conditions and accountability measures.



With regards to the economic reconstruction and recovery plan, ERRP, the committee notes that the 2022 MTBPS does not adequately focus on the ERRP particularly on its progress. The committee will convene a forum consisting of the PBO, FFC, National Treasury and other stakeholders to get an update on the economic growth trajectory that South Africa is taking.



Since November 2021, the SA Reserve Bank has hiked the purchase that is the repo rate by 275 basis points with the intention of maintaining price stability amid raging inflation.



The committee however, understands that there are global pressures as other central banks are tightening their monetary policies in respond to inflation in their jurisdiction. The committee will also engage with the bank in order to understand, if there are no other favorable policy alternatives that could be implemented within the constitutional and legislative mandate of the bank which would not involve the aggressive hiking of the repo rate.



With regards to energy, in the 2022 Budget Speech, in February, the Minister of Finance, stated that he had agreed with the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy to review all aspects of the fuel price. An ever escalating fuel price increase, is causing hardship on the economy and the poor.

Many workers today, find it very difficult to afford transport to work. The committee request that the Minister of Finance to report back to it on progress on all aspects of fuel price regime with the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy.



With regards to gender-based violence, GBV, and killing of children, the committee notes that the 2022 MTBPS does not appear to have explicitly budgeted for GBV and terrorisation of children. The committee request Treasury to explicitly consider this issue in the February 2023 Budget.



With regards to the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, the committee reiterates its concerns about National Treasury slate and the introduction of the Antimoney Laundering and Counter Terrorism Financing Bills to Parliament. Be that as it may, the committee will work very hard to process the General Laws Amendment Bill to avoid South Africa from being grey listed.



Hon House Chairperson, with regards to Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, GFIP, the committee is concerned that there appears to be a lack of understanding on the future of GFIP what is popularly known as the e-tolls. While the public seems to believe that the e-tolls have been scrapped clarification was provided that a new funding model was being proposed to fund the e-tolls. The committee request the Minister of Finance with his colleague to further clarify this matter to the people of Gauteng and the public in general.



On the issue of procurement, the committee welcomes the Minister’s commitment to table the Public Procurement Bill in March 2023. The committee also welcomes the Minister’s commitment that he is not exempting organs of state from the preferential procurement as it was reported over the weekend. It was also unfortunate that an Eskom board member, made a statement commenting with regard to this matter. The economic empowerment of blacks, youth and people living with disabilities should always be given preference when procuring services by the state. Public procurement must be implemented in a manner that also drives localisation.



Hon House Chairperson, it should be stated that the issue of Broad-based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, is a



constitutional imperative. The Constitution in terms of section 2(7)(b) says that organs of state should implement procurement policy providing for the protection or advancement of persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination which is apartheid. So, it would be uncalled for, for anybody to call for the scrapping of the BBBEE.



With regards to the issue of the unresolved Wage Bill, the committee has referred this matter to the Appropriations Committee for further consideration.



We would like to thank all those who participated in processing the MTBPS report. I move for the adoption of this report. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.



Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, ask South African households what is on their minds every day and they will tell you that the ever-increasing cost of living is causing more and more hardships. Eighty-one percent of households have cut back on the amount of food they can put on their tables. They will also tell you that transport costs are getting harder and harder to afford yet in his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement the Minister never mentioned the cost of living or the food price, or the costs of transport – not even once.



Instead, he spoke about trade-offs that in fact the price we pay for government’s mismanagement of the people’s money.



He went on to announce that R30 billion will be allocated to bail outs for Denel, Transnet and the SA National Roads Agency SOC Ltd, Sanral. This is after his tough love maiden speech that promise to end this corruption. Well, nobody believed you, anyway, so there is actually no surprise. Instead of tackling the most pressing problems for South African households, he bailed out his buddies.



The Minister also announced that a large chunk of Eskom’s debt will be transferred to national balance sheet. Investors in Eskom bonds will tell you how much they love the Eskom bonds because of their premium yield, and they are virtually guaranteed by government. The fact is that the bonds are also risky assets and default is possible – that is why there is a premium on the yield. When the Minister announced that the so- called debts swap of approximately R200 billion was on the table, the rating for Eskom bonds went up because investors have now less chance of losing some or all of their money. In these trade-offs, bond investors win. They keep the premium yield and their risk is carried by South African households



who will pay for it and they get no relief from food and fuel prices.



The state-owned enterprises, SOEs, including Eskom are not sustainable. The trade-off that government actually needs to make is between its failed developmental state model and a growing enterprise economy. It cannot have both. And if our economy does not grow, it cannot generate jobs and it cannot lift up people out of poverty.



On the fiscal framework, government relies on tax windfalls, most recently from the commodities boom. That income is not certain and the tax base is shrinking. Expenditure is rising, especially on interest payments that is now the largest expenditure item over the medium term. Debt has increased to R4,7 trillion rand although the Minister previously promised that the number would be going down and not up. Four point seven trillion rands is a big number – imagine if you had

R1 million and what you could do with it. If you had one million times that R1 million, that will be R1 trillion. Next year, government debt will be R5 trillion and that is what government has chosen - a trade-off between you and their cronies and you did not win.



A basic calculation tells us that South Africa is in very serious financial trouble and that a bailout from the International Monetary Fund, IMF, is not a farfetched possibility. If we were a household, we would be headed for debt review. It is likely that South Africa would be grey listed in February, and some international banks have already started behaving as if we are already grey listed, with international financial transactions taking longer and becoming more difficult to process. This is a direct result of government failure to act on corruption and a snail-paced response to the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, report.



The DA has proposed a comprehensive rescue package for our economy that includes getting government out of the way of growth, and if we get our economy growing at 4,8%, we can afford a conditional basic income grant. We can immediately zero rate for VAT and an expanded basket of food. The Minister misled Parliament when he said that he will consider our proposal.



In response to my question in this House, he said he will subject our proposal to an expert panel analysis if we requested it, and we did. Today I received a reply to a follow-up question that he won’t consider our proposal. First



the U-turn on tough love, then a U-turn on lower fruit prices. Can we believe anything you say? A DA government will choose the people above political cronies and it will choose to tackle the cost of living prices and not look the other way as the Minister chooses to do from his ivory tower, having long forgotten that government has no money of its own, it all belongs to the people. We still have a democracy in our country, however shaky the government has made it. And people will decide in 2024, whether they like the Minister’s trade- offs or not. We do not support this revised fiscal framework. Thank you. Chairperson.



Ms Y N YAKO: Thank you very much House Chairperson. We want to make it clear that there is nothing commendable about what the Finance Minister said when he tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. The Minister did not say anything we have not heard before that is going to revive the hopes and aspirations of more than 11 million unemployed people who are desperate for work but cannot find work, cannot feed their families, cannot afford electricity and cannot afford to put a roof over their heads.



The proposed revised fiscal framework tabled by the Minister failed to put in place believable and sustainable mechanisms



to stabilise the debt. Gross loan debt is sitting at R4 billion or 68% of the GDP, and this is projected to

increase to above 71,4% by the end of 2023. This means that we are going to spend more than R300 billion to service the current debt, money that we should be spending to build schools, build clinics and provide people with clean and drinkable water and provide all indigent households with free basic services. Outside the Social Development budget that includes social grants for more than 18 million beneficiaries, South Africa’s biggest expenditure item is to service debt.



What is even more concerning is that suddenly, there is a piling up of loans from neo-colonial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, IMF, that National Treasury continue to send their staff to be indoctrinated in neoliberal nonsense. These loans come with neo-colonial conditions, especially when it comes to SOEs.



We know that the R9 billion loaned to Eskom has nothing to do with stabilising the electricity grid. It has everything to do with neo-colonialism and attempts to take away our sovereignty. They want to tell us tomorrow that we cannot expropriate land without compensation, and we cannot nationalise mines, banks and other socioeconomic sectors



because those with the capacity to generate electricity are threatening to switch off the lights.



As the EFF we have always warned that the Finance Minister and the National Treasury are failing to table a practical and implementable plan to lead South Africa out of the current economic crisis. Perhaps we must all pay attention to the submission by the Parliamentary Budget Office, because it loks like there is sober and correct analysis.



The National Treasury is failing to appreciate that their so- called consolidated budget, which is an austerity budget, is eroding social fabric and increasing the risks to societal stability. We still do not have a believable plan to create jobs. It is misguided to think that the private sector will create jobs. We still do not have a practical plan to stabilise supply of affordable and dependable electricity, instead the focus is on the privatisation of Eskom, the purging of black executives and suppliers and giving the World bank an unrestrained power over Eskom, including details of employees, contracts, strategies and assets.



We still do not have a plan to stabilise strategic SOEs, besides giving them resources, there is no plan other than



privatisation. They have already privatised SA Airways, SAA, and we are already suffering as the prices of flights are already increasing to unsustainable levels.



This is what must happen, going forward. We must reject the revised fiscal framework as Parliament. We must demand that the Finance Minister table a more practical mechanism to deal decisively with debt. We must demand a practical plan to stabilise electricity supply that does not include World Bank loans, independent power producers or the purging of black executives and suppliers. We must demand a more believable plan to rescue strategic SOEs, in particular Transnet and Denel.



Lastly, it is disappointing that the MTBPS is tabled without a clear, practical and believable plan to address the collapse of local government. So, what this means is that more than

10 million indigent households will not get free basic services. This are the very same people who tomorrow will go to shops and take food without paying because they are hungry, and we will all pretend to be shocked. So, therefore the EFF rejects the revised fiscal framework tabled by the Finance minister. I thank you.



Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, on both sides of this House many are aware of exactly how difficult it must have been for the Finance Minister to rise before millions of South Africans and admit the failings of his own party. As the IFP, we welcome the interventions outlined by the Minister, albeit a little too late to expect total change when the very same organisation at the head of our government cannot seem to get its house in order. We are very aware of how difficult it must have been to manage the ever burgeoning public sector wage bill, meeting the demands of trade unions, ensuring that we keep debt under control and getting our state-owned entities, SOEs, to at least function as many of them still continue to bleed funds from our fiscus, draining whatever reserves we might still have left for government.



The IFP welcomes government’s commitment to boost infrastructure development over the medium term. We will support efforts with regard to better funding for health care, basic education, social services and support for local government, which provides the most essential basic services to our people.



While we also welcome the 12 months extension of the social grant to assist the most vulnerable, it is imperative that we



end the reliance of our people on social grants. This money could be used by government to assist the private sector to create millions of jobs, provide aid to small and medium-sized businesses and ... [Inaudible.] ... to support investments in agriculture, manufacturing, agri co-operatives and also assist our country’s entrepreneurs.



The IFP has always held the view that our people want to work. They do not want handouts from government. What they want is a hand up from their government to assist them in skills development and training initiatives that will see lasting effects on their lives and that of their families.



Lifting families and generations out of poverty must become the national agenda of our government. South Africans on the other hand need to hear the truth. They deserve to be told the true state of our economy. We can’t allow the status quo to remain as it is while millions of our people are to enter into a period of rising inflation, where the cost of living is almost unbearable. We can’t let this House simply rubber-stamp more plans and more promises of change that do not actually change the lives of our people.



In this regard, the IFP applauds the Minister for being frank and honest for once. When giving the policy statement, Mr Godongwana openly admitted in his introductory remarks that the capacity to run our state is weak. By extension, the Minister admits that the ruling party itself is weak and therefore can no longer govern the government. We know this to be true when most of our SOEs are leaderless. We know this to be true when critical posts in departments are not filled. We know this to be true when most targets of departments are not met.



South Africans are yearning for the better life that they were promised, but the hard pill to swallow is that it is a fact that the ANC is no longer able to deliver a better tomorrow for our people. It can’t. The ANC has failed the people of this country. The once so-called people’s movement has actually betrayed the same people. No amount of radical economic rhetoric will ever change the current lived reality. No amount of hopeless government plans will ever change the plight of our people. The only hope for a better and bright tomorrow is if we vote the ANC out of office. The problems of South Africans are nonfinancial. Therefore, no amount of money will ever change that. The only thing to change is regime change. That is the only solution. So, as the IFP we support



the report and lament that the ruling party should be kicked out of office. Thank you, Chair. [Interjections.]





Nksz C N NDABA: Haybooo, hayi, kanjani?





The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Order, hon members! Order! I now recognise hon Wessels.



Ms M R SEMENYA: It’s unlike the IFP. It’s unlike the IFP.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members! We would like to listen to hon Wessels. Order! Huh-uh, order!



Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chairperson, government debt is out of control and unsustainable. The budget deficit will not improve due to the ever-increasing social needs of South Africans and the burden on government for such not lessening due to insufficient economic growth and job creation due to failed ANC policies. The little money there is, is still being wasted. Each year the Auditor-General’s, AG, reports show that billions is lost on suppliers that are paid but that do not deliver any goods. Hundreds of millions are lost due to



incorrect payments to suppliers ... [no audio] ... spent on overpriced goods and services ... [no audio] ... by departments and entities in interest and penalties due to late payment to creditors. Millions are paid to ghost workers, yet you talk about fiscal discipline. No fiscal discipline.





En dan net nou die dag bestee die regering van Noordwes


R780 000 op wat? Donkiekarre! Hoe belaglik is dit? Terwyl die wanbestuur, blatante diefstal, verkeerde prioriteite, ontoereikende dienslewering en infrastruktuur wat daagliks verval voortduur, gaan geen fiskale raamwerk die situasie waarin Suid-Afrika verkeer red nie en gaan die teikens om die regering se skuld minder te maak nie bereik word nie.





We face an energy crisis, and then today we hear something extremely ludicrous. According to the EFF, expropriation without compensation will solve the energy crisis. How ludicrous is that? However, on the other hand we hear from the chairperson of the committee that it is uncalled for to ask for an end to broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE. Hon Maswanganyi, what is uncalled for is that, that policy is



not benefitting the majority of poor South Africans. It’s benefitting your friends.



Ms M R SEMENYA: You have benefited before.



Mr W W WESSELS: It’s benefitting an elite and it completely destroyed the economy. It completely destroyed entities.





Wat julle aan my regtekant asseblief vir jul vriende moet gaan vra is hoe kry ’n mens dit reg om ’n miljard ...





... to steal a billion ...





... om op ’n slag in ’n dag se tyd ’n miljard te steel? Hoe steel ’n mens ’n miljard?





Please go and ask your friends, and come and tell me. I want to know. It is absolutely chaotic! The fact ... that you can’t govern anything. Every SOE has failed!






Mr W W WESSELS: Every SOE has completely collapsed, and then you stand here and talk about austerity, you talk about the fact that ... [Inaudible.] ... fiscal discipline and the fact that you are a caring government. The ANC must be gotten rid of. We can’t afford an ANC government anymore. The poor are getting poorer. The people are suffering due to insufficient service delivery, and it’s you and your friends that are stealing the money of the poor ... [Interjections.] ... and that is why you have a budget deficit. It’s not the global economy, as the chairperson points out. It’s not due to the global economy. It’s due to your own failed governance. It’s due to the fact that you have no consequence management and you let your cadres get away with stealing billions at a time. It’s unacceptable!





Dit is ’n skande! Julle moet julle skaam! [Tussenwerpsels.]





Ms C N NDABA: {Inaudible.] ... with your friends.



Mr S N SWART: Chair, the fiscal strategies focused on reducing the fiscal risks in the short term, narrowing the budget deficit and stabilising debt, while proposing measures to enhance economic growth. The ACDP questions whether this strategy is achievable, given the severe challenges facing the nation.



As we know, there has been a slowdown in global economic growth due to the COVID-19 pandemic, high inflation rates and the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war. In addition, the USA and the UK are experiencing very high interest rates. Domestically, the nation ... South Africa is recovering from one of the world’s hardest and longest COVID-19 lockdowns, last year’s unrest in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, the recent floods and of course ongoing power cuts. This compromises an already fragile and recovering economy.



Domestically and probably the most significant threat is unfunded spending pressures such as the ... sector wage bill. On the positive side, the country’s public finances are looking slightly better, largely as a result of the higher than projected revenue collection — some R85,5 billion.

However, how is that going to be spent? That is where we need good stewardship of resources. We need servant leadership.



The economic growth figure of 1,9% is nowhere near what is required to address high levels of unemployment and poverty. Some eight million people remain unemployed in the country, and I’m sure you will agree that, that is scandalous.



The ACDP has taken note of many of the recommendations in the report. We support the extension of the R350 per month grant for another year to assist the poorest of the poor, given the high levels of unemployment. We share the concerns of the possible greylisting of South Africa by the Financial Action Task Force, FATF. This will have a severe impact on financial institutions and on the economy, and we trust that everything possible will be done to avoid this.



Additional resources must be allocated to law enforcement agencies, and the late tabling of required amending legislation with far-reaching consequences has not helped matters. We are concerned about certain risks identified in the 2022 Budget and many of these have materialised, such as bailouts for SOEs — Denel, the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, and Transnet. We are also concerned about corruption and theft running into hundreds of billions of rand — as indicated by the Zondo Report — which appears to be ongoing. That, whilst public finances are looking slightly better.



Until corruption, particularly in public procurement, is rooted out the fiscal outlook remains under severe pressure. It is regrettable that the much-anticipated Public Procurement Bill has still not been tabled.



Let me emphasise again that what is needed is good stewardship of state resources and servant leadership. We look forward to the 2024 elections. The ACDP will not support this report ... [Inaudible.]



Mr N L S NKWANWA: House Chair, thank you very much. The UDM does not support the report. It is our considered view that, the strategy of the ANC does not go far enough, in adopting measures to enhance economic growth and to reignite an infrastructure-led growth in our country and to improve service delivery.



In fact, one has to consider that public debt has risen sevenfold from R577 billion in 2007-08 to over R4 trillion in 2022. And yet, we have not been able to make a dent in the unemployment rate, poverty and levels of inequality in the country, because of the leakages that are on the system because of poor governance, corruption and maladministration.



In fact, having spent such a lot of money and having failed to do what the ANC was supposed to do, is a damning indictment of the leadership of the ANC on this very important question. We do however, support the stance that the government has taken not to use windfall to fund permanent spending increases, but to primarily address some of the critical challenges facing state-owned enterprises, SOEs.



We make this point mindful of the fact that, the ANC has a tendency of just throwing money at the problem, instead of addressing the underlying root causes, which have caused the SOEs to be to be in the mess that they are currently in. For instance, we are of the view that the government should seek to address governance challenges, and only be able to work with SOEs that are central to the socioeconomic objectives of the country, instead of giving out money willy-nilly, to everyone to all and sundry who request funding from government.



We are also of the firm view that fiscal consolidation episodes of the past have not been assessed properly, to check their effectiveness and whether or not they delivered the expected outcomes. Because from where we’re sitting, they have resulted in inadequate spending on social security especially



any infrastructure development programmes, which if left unchecked has the ability or has the tendency to actually create instability and resentment among those who are supposed to be protected by the system.



Instead of wasting money on bailing out SOEs that are not central of a strategic nature, what should be happening is, the government should be investing in programmes that are going to uplift the poor, empower those who have been economically marginalised and to ensure that people have a stake in the South African economy. The measures that have been undertaken so far are not credible enough to deal with the triple challenges of unemployment, inequality and poverty as we know. Although we are not convinced ... [Time expired.]



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you Chairperson, I’m with you. Thank you very much for that, I didn’t think it was my turn yet.

Chairperson, let me start off by saying, year in and year out, we get commitments from National Treasury and government to address the challenges we face in the country. Our debt is rising, we are now going to R4,7 trillion. If that is not enough, we are now taking another R151 billion, let me repeat R151 billion. Only about 3% of this R151 billion is coming in the form of grants, the rest are loans and things.



So, clearly it means that South Africa, something that we’ve been raising year in and year out is far nearing a fiscal cliff which will affect the sovereignty of the country. Now, look at the state-owned enterprises, when is when the government received SA Airways, SAA it was functional. It had a fleet of aeroplanes it’s now crumbled. Look at the Post Office, crumbled. Look at your infrastructure, crumbled. Look at the post offices, crumbled.



Don’t you think it is time to declare South Africa a failed state? Don’t you think it’s about time we admit that we failed and we need to change direction? Or do we need a Muammar Gaddafi in this country? Look at what he has given his people, how he has treated these people. I think people in this country are dreaming that someday they will have a Muammar Gaddafi that will come and change their life. But, certainly in the direction we are going, we are not going to change the life of our people in this country.



Let me give you a good example, the high unemployment rate that we have. Look at the mismatch with the poor quality of education that we have. There’s a massive shortage of information technology, IT skills in this country, yet the Department of Basic Education and many schools are not even



teaching mathematics anymore. Look at the dropout rate in schools alone, and yet we are talking about importing skill.



Let's look at Eskom for that matter, and yes indeed, the requirement is going to be estimated to be R1,7 trillion with at least 10 years. So I’m not surprised when I saw a report now from Eskom talking about load shedding going to 2027. Yes, indeed, it’s going to take you the best part of 10 years

R1,7 trillion. You’re going to have to also import skills from outside of South Africa, because we don’t have the capacity.



We talk about infrastructure; every year the President sings the same song. But this year alone R2 billion underspending in infrastructure and we talking about economic growth in South Africa, to spending money on infrastructure, and we think it is okay. So, really let’s look at that.



We are concentrating on local government. Look at the state of local government and the report from the Auditor-General alone, yet we are talking about allocating more money. Yes, rightfully so. But, do we have the capacity to spend that money at local government level? No, we don’t have it. Look at the state of the coalition governments there. Look at the looting and corruption that takes place there, very little or



nothing is being happening. Yes, I see again and again, we talk about the Russia and Ukraine war. Nobody is talking about the benefits and then we are enjoying in this country as a result ... [Time expired.] Thank you.



Mr S M JAFTA: Hon House Chair, the Standing Committee on Finance considered the 2022 Revived Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals, and accordingly adopted the framework. There are a number of developmental priorities that appear in the report which are consistent with our party’s socioeconomic template, such as the extension of the Social Relief of Distress Grant, SRD and the investment in social infrastructure.



While our debt to gross domestic product, GDP ratio is likely to crowd out our spending in education and health, we note that government is committed to reprioritising resources and injecting more money in social services. The rise in Eskom debt, and the subsequent bailout pronounced by the Minister in his Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS is a grave concern for us. While Eskom is critical for our economy, we cannot but explore a viable and financially sound model for the utility company, such as listing Eskom on the Johannesburg



Stock Exchange, in order to raise capital and improve its liquidity.



There is also an urgent need to diversify our export commodity market. Given our subdued economy, we must begin to adopt a new import substitution strategy with the view to minimise our reliance on imported products. We recently studied the Singapore model of SOEs. We learnt that all SOEs in Singapore are under the control of a holding company called Temasek, whose board is appointed by the President. Temasek is run like any other company, is able to raise its own capital and is in fact, staffed with professional staff. There is no cadre deployment.



In closing hon Chair, we must restate our long held view that, our country must be willing to adapt to global economic dynamics. There is therefore no time for policy rigidity, and outdated nationalisation policies. We therefore support the committee’s report. Thank you.



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much hon House Chair. Our first concern should be justified if 2022 Revised Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals alleviate the price of the poor people and the crisis facing workers, in order to address



the needs of the poor people. We need to look at illicit financial flows. This IFF drains the domestic resources with harmful effects, which contribute to countries like South Africa’s failure to provide efficient basic services, such as water, electricity sewerage control because of illicit financial flows.



Currently, South Africa still collects more revenue from pay- as-you-earn than from corporate taxes. So, systematically, the poor people are paying more taxes than the rich people. What is wrong with this portfolio committee? We lose an estimated R3,5 to R5 billion, annually, through illicit financial flows capital flight. What is wrong with the Minister?



We, Al Jama-ah, recommend that we should narrow deficit and stabilise debt. We need to uphold the others above our Action Agenda of 2015 that is domestic resources mobilisation needing drastically and urgently reduced illicit financial flows capital flight by investing in a structure that curbs corporate tax invasion, profit shifting and trade misinvoicing.



Minister, are you going to put in place this fiscal infrastructure? Then we can support your report! Thank you very much.



Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Thank you, Chair. Let us talk about potatoes. Everybody loves potatoes and they are our true staple food. They can be found in most households throughout the country. These wonderful vegetables are nutrient dense, with some varieties even having superfood status.



Despite their popularity, unfortunately the price of frozen potatoes has almost doubled - from 16 around a kilogram to R30 a kilogram. This comes at a time when food inflation and the rising cost of living is making it ever more difficult for South Africans to put food on the table. Restaurant and sponsor shop owners are still struggling to survive after the devastation of Covid-19.



Potatoes form an important part of most restaurant menus and spaza shop sales. Potatoes are an affordable way to put healthy carbohydrates on the family’s table. That is why frozen potatoes have been given a zero-VAT rating, to make them easier to afford to the benefit of the poor people. It sounds good, right?



So why then has the price doubled in a year? Well, the answer is that the ANC-led government has decided to institute antidumping duties on imported frozen potato chips, which basically means that the import of cheap frozen potatoes is discouraged and South African potato suppliers are protected.



This practice promotes and protects big business at the expense of small business owners and normal South Africans, who now must pay almost double the price for potatoes because local potato suppliers are protected by the government. So in short, while potato suppliers continue to make government protected profits, consumers pay the price of rising and rising food costs.



Chair, the DA has repeatedly asked the ANC-led government to expand the list of zero-rated food items, to include chicken, beef, tin beans, wheat, flour, margarine, peanut butter, baby food, tea, coffee and soup powder. This will help bring down the price of nutrition for families and help with healthy food on the table.



The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, presented the perfect moment for the ANC to acknowledge the plight of the poor and add these items to the list of zero-rated food items.



Instead, the Minister has now doubled down on the current list and has refused to have our suggestions reviewed or implemented.



So, in conclusion, instead of expanding the list of zero-rated VAT items, the ANC is instituting antidumping duties on potatoes, which just drives the price up and up, at the expense of the poor people. It is a clear indication of an

ANC-led government that just does not care, because they would rather protect big business, than make food more affordable for the hungry and the poor people. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms M D MABILETSA: The ANC, during the Budget debate, stated that the country needs to build resilience to the economic challenges we face and the choices we have to make. It must provide the people with the confidence that the quality of their lives is going to change for the better, and how the Budget helps in this regard. Any fiscal policy and its subsequent revision, each year, needs to address growth and development in the first instance; and secondly, look after public finances in a manner that provides for sustainability and resilience.



Certainly, fiscal policy and monetary policy play a very important part of shaping an economy over a period of time, and provide support to how we use public finances. They are, however, not alone, but stand alongside other governing party economic policy positions, which are designed to address the needs of the people as outlined in the governing party manifesto and government’s Medium Term Strategic Framework.



Besides the global economic storm that is gathering, we have a domestic socioeconomic storm that public finances have to address, along with other interventions of government. Public finances have got to address needs broadly and cannot be captured by sectional interests in a direction that will end up serving the propertied class and wealthy.



They too have to be served by public finances, but proportionally, to the needs of the country. That is where policy, a manifesto and a Medium Term Strategic Framework must dominate and direct. So Fiscal Policy must respond to this and be appropriate to the needs of the nation.



The 2022 Revised Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals reflects that the current fiscal policy’s fiscal consolidation will be phased out in 2023-24, and we welcome this. Whilst it



has served the purpose of narrowing the Budget deficit since 2013, it has not served the purpose alongside sectoral economic strategies that provide the necessary growth and development, which is desperately needed. Economics is about choices and what informs these choices. So, we look forward to a new fiscal policy that will indeed bring the required growth and development that we all need.



As the ANC has repeatedly stated, dealing with the structure of the economy, the political economy is primary. It is the legacy of the structure of the economy that continues to reproduce unemployment and poverty, as well as determining why inequality continues to widen. The efforts, in this regard, are to be supported and going into the future, more time given to how we build the demand side of the economy as part of building economic inclusion across sectors, which in-turn provide stimulus for growth.



For the 2022 Revised Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals, the National Treasury’s medium term fiscal strategy is focused on reducing the fiscal risks in the short term, narrowing the Budget deficit and stabilising debt, while proposing measures to enhance economic growth and restore funding for infrastructure and service delivery programmes.



The ANC, as a people’s movement and governing party are obliged to take seriously what was raised through the public participation process. The process was robust and there were agreements and disagreements, which when dealing with the political economy, one would anticipate and expect. The point is influence. As to who influences who, why, and in whose interest - that is what we have to manage!



The Constitutional and statutory bodies that made submissions have mixed views on the 2022 Revised Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals and MTBPS. On the one hand, the dangers of expenditure pressures on the fiscus and sustainability of public finances, and how the extension of the Social Relief of Distress Grants, SRD Grants, for another year would create risks to the fiscal framework, which include the materialisation of a higher-than-budgeted wage agreement, the financial support for strategic SOEs and the poor financial health of most SOEs, etc.



On the other hand, the strategic goal of government is: To reduce poverty, inequality and unemployment; that any further fiscal consolidation would constrain economic activity, erode the social fabric and escalate risks to societal and economic stability; that, ensuring resources for measures to transform



the structure of the economy and to alleviate suffering that is associated with extreme inequality, which is a constraint on economic growth and development; that, the fiscal policy and the fiscal framework must consider current socioeconomic conditions, including the extreme levels of structural unemployment, poverty and investment; and that fiscal sustainability should not narrowly focus on achieving Budget surpluses and reducing government debt to GDP.



As the ANC, we welcomed these debates, as we are sure that whatever decision we take has to be taken on the balance of researched evidence. The research and findings from the stakeholders were more critical of the revised fiscal framework. The session where National Treasury responded to the concerns of all who contributed in the public hearings was very useful, but what it does mean, is that going into the future, we need to put in place processes to deal with debate and views on the fiscal framework, spanning a period of the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, so that we inform each better.



The committee’s recommendation, that the National Treasury should report to the committee the extent to which the previously adopted countercyclical fiscal policy and fiscal



consolidation have been effective in providing growth to the economy, is part of this the ongoing engagement.



The Committee took this further, in calling for far more effective co-ordination between the fiscal and monetary policies. In doing this, the committee will engage with the SA Reserve Bank on policy alternatives within the constitutional and legislative mandate of SA Reserve Bank, which do not involve the aggressive hiking of the repo rate. The ANC supports the revised fiscal framework and committee report.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, hon members, let me start with the fiscal strategy without repeating what we have said in the statement in the speech. We made it absolutely clear that the fiscal strategy faces headwinds.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, there is a point of order or suggestion here, one minute. Hon Radebe?



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, if the Minister has got a problem with his video can it be closed down.






The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): If you may take that out cancel, hon Minister.






The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, order please.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I switched if off.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): You may proceed, hon Minister.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Okay. I said in the fiscal strategy there are headwinds both global and domestic. We made this absolutely, we didn’t hide it - some of which if naterialise we will have negative impact on the fiscal strategy. On the debt issues ...



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, there is a point of order in the House.



Mr W W WESSELS: Yes. Chairperson, on a point of order. It seems as though the problem is not only with the video. Maybe the Minister must mute his mic as well.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): It’s not a point of order, hon member. Hon Minister, you may proceed.






The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, please. Order!



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Okay. So, they must not distract me from my thought process. As I have indicated headwinds are both domestic and global if materialised then will have implication for the fiscal strategy. We have said in so far as in revenue override our intention is to device that split between that service cost and missed some of the strategic objectives of the government. And therefore, there has been major issue about rising debt. No economy is insulated from rising debt across the world as a result of COVID-19.



Most economists are trying to grapple with that question and manage that downward and we are no exception and we have also made that absolutely clear that as we are focusing on debt reduction and revenue overruns we are making a split between debt reduction and meeting some of these strategic objectives. Whether those strategic objections ...



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Minister, apology, there is another point of order in the House.



Mr J J MCGLUWA: Sorry, House Chairperson, is it possible for the Minister to speak slowly. We can’t hear you. He is just always too fast.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, hon member ... [Inaudible.] ... but I think we must just allow the Minister to proceed. Let’s allow the Minister to proceed, hon members. You may proceed, hon Minister. Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Whether those strategic objectives the strategic objective is a shift the composition of expenditure towards meeting basic needs and service delivery needs. What are the examples of that? In the current budget as we speak the Police Department has recruiting about 10 000 police. In the medium term, we will be having about 15 000 police. We have made provision for healthcare services, including the employment of professionals in that sector. A similar arrangement has been made in education.



We have increased the cost the indigent basket for municipalities. All of those things are with the communities



and their services. We have extended the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant in order to deal with unemployment and in particular in this environment of rising cost. Added to that is a growth trajectory which is underpinned by an increase infrastructure spending. All of those things are intended to meet these basic needs of the people.



Of course, we have got to make choices as hon de Villiers is not. We have had to make choices. Some of those choice - should we allow in the interest of cheaper consumer goods and at the expense of job losses. Those are strategic from time to time. We have got to make choice whether we prevent workers that worked in the potato business in South Africa and creates jobs elsewhere by allowing more imports. Those are choices that we are supposed to made on a day to day basis. In so far as e-toll is concern, we have made it absolutely clear in the speech that our focus - we are taking over the debt. But few issues remain unresolved. The question of maintenance and the question of refunding.



Those law abiding citizens who have been paying somebody must pay for that and the continued maintenance cost moving forward. Those are the details we are finalising with the Department of Transport and the province of Gauteng.



Let’s me turn to the procurement issues. Much has been said about the absence of BEE. And lastly, one individual did not read the regulations properly and everybody didn’t use that print to conclude the same thing. A proper reading of the regulation you will see in the definition what are the specific goals. Those specific goals are clearly. We are saying within the procurement processes it must be within the regulatory framework whether that regulatory framework talk about those who have suffered unfair discrimination as a result of race, gender and disability. It is clearly stated on the special goal set out in the regulations.



The second element of that is the new Procurement Bill. The new Procurement Bill, hon members, are aware. We went to National Economic development and Labour Council, Nedlac, on 6 May for consultation as required by all the necessary processes of consultation in South Africa. We only came out of Nedlac on 7 October in five months. It is not our intention to delay the Procurement Bill. Having come out of that there are other processes that have got to be done. Firstly, we have got to get state advisers to give us the certificate. We have got to get presidency in the form of the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation to give us a secure economic impact. All of those things are taking their way. But we are quite confidence



that by the end of the fiscal year we would have tabled the Bill before Parliament. Let me conclude ...



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Minister, the time is up. Thank you so much.



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Okay. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you.



Debate concluded.





move that the report be adopted.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).



Report accordingly adopted.



The House adjourned at 19:20.






No related