Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 31 Aug 2022

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD 
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY 
WEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2022
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch: Plenary

The House met at 15:00.

 

 

The House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS CLUSTER 1 – PEACE AND SECURITY

Question 309:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, hon

 

House Chair. House Chair, South Africa enjoys defence diplomatic relations with countries across all the continents of the world. In this regard, in recent months, we have had engagements with our counterparts in the UK, in the People’s Republic of China, in Nigeria, Côte d'Ivoire, in Ghana to call but a few. These engagements have been with the view to achieve the deepening of our relationships as a country with these other countries, especially in the context of the Memorandum of Understandings between ourselves and them. Even where we have not have formal defence relations, we continue to engage with other countries sometimes to showcase South Africa to see also what the other countries may gain from us but also to see what we can gain from them. In this context, South Africa and Russia do enjoy cordial relations with both countries having signed the number of military related bilateral agreements which are yielding benefits for both countries. It was similarly to gain a deeper understanding of the most pressing matters of the security situation in the middle east and North Africa, the phenomenon of the colours of revolution and the ways to combat international terrorism.

 

The acceptance of the invitation, House Chair, was seen as a crucial step to articulate South Africa’s position on the need for the maintenance of international peace and security as per the provisions of the UN Charter. The invitation was to further use the opportunity, firstly, for me to meet up with my counterpart, the Russian Defence Minister, Gen Shoigu and other Ministers of Defence who were over there on this World

 

Conference on Peace. The emphasis we made at the conference was a consistent effort as per the AU’s Agenda 2063 on the silencing of the guns. As stated in my openings comments, we engage all nations states from across the continents and we would similarly, Chair, have accepted an invitation had it come from the state of Israel, given the decades long of conflicts that is ongoing there against Israel and Palestine. I wish to also state that South Africa was not attending this Moscow International Conference on Security and Peace for the first time. We were part of the third conference. We were part of the 5th, the 7th, the 8th, the 9th and the last one, the 10th conference.

 

So, one wonders why it was so important to ridicule our attendance on this particular one. It is important that we continue to engage with other nations. But we must also, House Chair, never run away from dealing with issues of toxic national interests. No country’s national interest is so important that it can be used to oppress other nations. And that is the point we made at the floor of that conference.

That is the point that we said without fear, without favour, we will stand up for what this country stands for, dialogue, negotiations, fighting for peace and making sure that all people in this world are equal. The easy way out, the cowardly way out is to choose sides. It is to go with those that we deem are mighty in the world and we ignore those who do not have a voice to speak for peace, to speak even when they are raising little white flags. We want peace, we want to negotiate and there is no voice there. So, that is why I went there.

 

Will South Africa and the Defence Force gain anything from it? Yes. Yes. As I said we have a number of agreements between the two countries, our children are studying and been trained in Russia. Yes, we are part of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics. Next year, South Africa hosts. And therefore, to miss the opportunity to meet with the Minster of Defence when next year we must be talking Defence with friends would have been something that boggles the mind.

 

Yes, we will also follow up on our invitation as to whether Russia is still coming to South Africa for the Corps of Army Air Defence, AAD. And yes, we have also invited Ukraine and both countries have agreed to come. So, we also use the opportunity because we were not speaking only for South Africa in that conference. We actually spoke on behalf of Africa. We spoke for those voices that cannot reach those conferences. And yes, it was important for me especially as a woman to talk about peace in Africa and to call for the reform of the UN Security Council. Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Before I call on the hon Marais, let’s just remind ourselves, hon members, according to Rule 142, we know that the first response from the Minister its four minutes. Subsequent and supplementary questions is two minutes for the Minister to respond. And the member who put the first original question has an opportunity of two minutes while subsequent members only have one minute each. So, I just want that to... lets maybe not forget and continue with the preambles, because when the two minutes’ lapses or your remaining minutes lapses and you haven’t asked your question, it would be unfair for me to stop you. So, lets help one another and make sure that we stick to what the Rules are saying in terms of the time that we are given. Thank you very much. The hon Marais?

 

Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Minister, for your response. We all know that not only in politics but international relations perception plays a big role. So, in this specific time on age there is a perception that the ANC government is not siding with the citizens of Ukraine but rather with the invaders, the Russians.

 

Minister, South Africa has long standing economic agreements and military co-operative partnerships with countries like, the US, the UK, Germany and others. It had now been compromised ... [Inaudible.] that South Africa is punished with high fuel, grain and other prices because of the Russian invasion. Africa has also fallen victim to the senseless invasion. Human rights or ordinary Ukrainians are unashamedly, abused and trampled upon by the Russians every day. Last week, we learned about the proposed legislation from the congress in the US that would compel Washington to act against African countries aiding Russia.

 

Minister, how will the ANC government perceive open support for Russia war against Ukraine as a sovereign country, including your visit to Moscow affect our military and economic partnerships with our major trading partners? And can the Minister inform the House on the steps that you will be taking and your department, including meetings with your counterparts to ensure that these military partnerships, our foreign relations and economic partnerships are not irretrievable damaged? I thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I have a screen here that is giving me the time. So, be patient. Mr Marais had his own two minutes. And he left some few seconds. So, don’t think is too much because I said it I had it there.

 

Mr S J F MARAIS: Good timing then.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. The hon Minister?

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, Chair. The hon Marais says the ANC government compromises South Africa. That is not true. The hon Marais also says that perception. Perception is anything. Interpretation of what is fact and what, sometimes is emotional and not necessarily a fact is there also.

 

The relationships between South Africa and Ukraine cannot depend on the relationship between South Africa and Russia and vice versa. We will not compromise our speaking out against war. We speak out even against the strong men of Africa and we still need to do business, we still coexist with them in this continent. I don’t have to answer to you. [Interjections.] I do not have to answer to you. You are rude. But perhaps you think that when you look at me, you look at a kitchen maid. [Interjections.] Yes, because your attitude is always like that. You are condescending. You look down upon the black people in this House and I am getting fed up with it. [Interjections.] It will need dialogue because you cannot control your member.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister? Okay. Is that a point of order? Thank you. There is a point of order. You still have your minutes.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, hon ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon members, I don’t know what has happened. I can hear there is noise.

Please, let me hear.

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. I want to request that our executive be protected. The Minister is responding to questions but the hon Macpherson is distracting her. Can the Minister be heard in this House as she responds to these questions? Thank you very much.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. That is true. That order is sustained; it is what is supposed to happen. Hon Macpherson? Yes.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Thanks Chair. This is not a high school auditorium where members have to sit here and be quiet when Ministers are giving responses. Members are allowed to heckle but they are not allowed to interject. If the Minister is so touched by her inability to rebuke Putin ... that is for her to deal with ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Macpherson, before you proceed can you withdraw that that the Minister’s inability because we are not here about that. You can’t say that.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: So Chair, what ...?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You cannot say that.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: So, her unwillingness. Her unwillingness.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: If she is not.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That is semantics. Don’t do that, hon Macpherson. Don’t do that.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Actually, I ruled that that order is correct.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: On what ... [Inaudible.] ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t want you to explain yourself.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: But what Rule, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are not bringing in a point of order. You are trying to explain yourself. So, I am going to stop you just there.

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: But we are not going to sit and be quiet just because Ministers don’t like the question.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m going to stop you just there, because I thought you are coming in with your point of order. I didn’t hear what was happening.

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: No, kick him out. Call security to kick him out. Why don’t you do that? He is not listening to you. Tell security to kick him out.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto):Okay. Hon Minister, you still have your 38 seconds. Can you proceed if you want to?

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: We will continue, hon members, to put the interests of South Africa first. We will continue to speak after this conflict. We will continue to take every opportunity we get to get that message across irrespective of whether people like it or not. We will continue to stand up and say the unpleasant and to say we support dialogue and peace.

 

Mr T N MMUTLE: Thank you very much, House Chair. Hon Minister, the activities of the ANC-led government in international relations are guided by the foreign policy principles of the ANC and government which amongst other things include the principle of a multilateral approach to resolving international conflict. This means that the preference for dialogue or negotiations to resolve international conflict as oppose to war. Can the Minister reflect on how South Africa use the opportunity in the 10th Moscow Conference on International Security to engage and advance its call for negotiation or dialogue in resolving the conflict between Russia and Ukraine? Thank you very much.

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, the

 

President of this country, hon Ramaphosa, was amongst the first to call up and raised his hand being prepared to mediate and to bring the two parties together.

 

The Minister of International Relations, Mme Pandor, has followed suit in expressing how we feel. This country is part of the AU. This country pushes dialogue, negotiations, peace- making and peacekeeping at the AU level.

 

South Africa has been on the floor of the UN pushing for: Firstly, the reform of the Security Council simply because for as long as you have few countries having a veto power, you are unable to really realise multilateralism to that ... [Inaudible.] ... which we think that as South Africa we must stand very firm on. So, we believe in multilateralism. We believe that all the institutions that make peace that enable nations to talk together that enable people to talk must ... [No sound.]

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Inkosi Cebekhulu, you are the next to ask the supplementary question.

 

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, this is Singh here. Inkosi is having connectivity problems. Can I take the question?

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Cebekhulu is there. He is trying to talk.

 

Mr N SIGH: I see he is there now. He sent us a different message anyway over to him.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Next time try to talk to your members first before you come in.

 

Mr N SIGH: Thank you, Chair. We did so a few minutes ago.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Inkosi?

 

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, House Chair. I am ...

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed. It froze?

 

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Sorry.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Baba, Cebekhulu?

 

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, thank you. Yes, Chair.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, you can proceed but your voice is cutting. I think after this you must get a better space but try to bring your question in.

 

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: May I request that hon Singh take over because as I have said its windy here and the network just go. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. No problem.

Proceed, hon Singh.

 

Mr N SINGH: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Minister, thank you for your response to the question. It’s quite ironical that that this conference of leaders the Defence Ministers was in to promote peace. Now whoever is right or wrong the actions in the Ukraine territory is far from promoting peace. In fact, what we see is war, we see destruction of properties and lives.

 

I would like to know, hon Minister, whether the advice that you gave to both sides will have positive results? I mean, what is your sense from the destructions? Do you think peace will prevail in that region in the interest of both countries and in the interest of all of us and the rest of the world?

Thank you.

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Interestingly, the same question was put to me by my counterpart in the UK before I went to Russia. I explained the position of South Africa. In our discussion in the UK and in Russia there is an appetite to talk. However, remember that in any conflict both parties must be able to frankly want to sit down and talk. We have offered, I know that the alternatives to the South African President that has been to try and bring the two parties together is tacky and we hope that when people continue to talk to the two countries to sit down and talk, that they should talk. Nobody likes what is happening. Nobody enjoys the loss of lives. Nobody wants to see children dying. Nobody wants to see women crying. So, we will continue to say find a way to coexist in this world. Find a way to talk peace. Find a way to resolve things without killing. Thank you, Chair.

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, allow me to thank you and congratulate you on your decision to attend this invitation by the Russian Republic. I am not sure why people in this House particular believe that the Russians are the perpetrators. Indeed, it is the other way around. It is the Ukraine that has been provoking the Russians for a long period of time in collusion with the United States of America.

 

Now Minister, can you tell us in your engagement with them, you clearly must have gotten a perspective from the Russians about what exactly is happening so that we get a true idea.

I know and understand what is happening there but many of our people don’t. Could you perhaps tell us in your engagement with them what you believe, as far as the Russian are concerned, is the root cause of the problem? I know who is it. It is the Ukrainian together with the United States of America and others. Can you tell us more? Thank you.

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The hon Minister? Hon members, previously we really pleaded with you to say that this room is small. So, you are heckling if you are too loud. I can’t even hear and I won’t be able to assist you in terms of coming up of an order because you are making noise. I can’t even hear the member that is speaking. Okay.

The hon Minister?

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, I am not sure I can say what other people have said in this House and not be seen to be carrying capes. But I do know that whatever it is we must take it right back to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato. We must take it right back to the inability of the UN to intervene when it should intervene. And that’s why we have been calling for the relook at the power relations within the UN, the big brother and little sister ...[Inaudible.] ... there.

 

We must also be looking at the power that is vested in the five countries that make up the Security Council. We must also insist that when the UN was formed we thought that all members of the UN would be equal members and that each voice from each country and each part of the world would have an equal say.

 

And therefore, until we can actually say that that UN is so reformed that it recognises even the smallest of nations as an equal member of the living population then I would say that, hon member, I will not carry tales from what the other counterparts have said. But I do know that Africa was united in calling for peace. I do know that there was no resistance and negative publicity from the Russians when we stood up calling for peace. I do know that South Africa is leading in castigating in going to deliver a message which they should actually be hoping that we deliver in droves to make sure that the people of Ukraine do not continue to suffer there.

 

As to what the real issue is between Ukraine and Russia, I sometimes think it is not in our best interest as this House to find faults. It is in our best interest to force the two parties to a table where we can find peace. Thank you, Ma’am.

 

Question 357:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, House Chairperson, I have been informed that the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, has not yet initiated criminal prosecutions against any persons allegedly involved in the theft committed at the Phala Phala game farm. As the criminal investigations in respect of the allegations are still underway, the relevant director of public prosecutions’ office will commence assessing the evidence once the case docket is formally handed over by the Directorate for Priority Crimes Investigation, DPCI. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

Mr K CEZA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, for giving us the opportunity. Minister, several cases have been opened against the President for having kept unauthorised foreign currency under the mattresses, for abducting and assaulting his domestic worker, and for hiding the theft of illicit funds in his farm. It has since come to the fore that he also used Crime Intelligence to track down those who robbed his illicit funds and even colluded with his counterparts, the Namibians, to track those who stole from him. What would the failure of the criminal justice system to hold Mr Ramaphosa accountable for these crimes do to the nation’s confidence and the impartiality of the NPA, let alone the abuse of women – the domestic worker that was abducted by the President - using the state’s coffers?

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, House Chair, the criminal justice system has not yet failed on the matter. It is taking due course. The matter is receiving attention through the National Prosecuting Authority for assessment and a decision to be made. I have just said here that the NPA has not yet received the docket to make a decision on whether to prosecute or not.

 

House Chairperson, there must be no political pressure on the NPA or any investigating authority. Whilst we do understand that certain things needs to be done expeditiously, these institutions are aware of the pressure and the need to handle these matters expeditiously. Political pressure on its own is also interference. The executive must not interfere, but allow due process to take its course and to unfold. It is what we are expected to do as the executive. We also expect our colleagues in the political environment to respect these processes which have been provided for by the Constitution of this country and the laws that binds all of us. Let’s give this opportunity a life of its own so that due processes can take place properly without any fear, favour or prejudice.

 

Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Mr X NQOLA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, perhaps a correct question would have been that: does the Department of Justice and Correctional Services have a role to play in this most problematized Phala Phala incident particularly giving cognisance to the provisions of section 179 of the Constitution? Thank you very much.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much, House Chairperson, the investigations in the country, the role to preserve peace and enforcement of the law

 

 

 

in terms of section that hon Nqola has stated has to do with this. The NPA’s role in terms of the Constitution is to prosecute without any fear or favour. The prosecution is vested with the National Prosecuting Authority in terms of the Constitution of the country and in terms of the NPA Act.

 

 

In fact, it is criminality in terms of section 8 of the NPA Act to interfere with the work of the NPA. It is a crime which carries a sentence of 10 years if there is any form of interference from anyone.

 

 

The role of the Department of Justice in this regard is to help and allow the NPA with regard to processes, budgets and so forth. The department does not prosecute, neither does the Minister. It is only an authority that is vested with the NPA. In fact, this is the only exclusive jurisdiction of the NPA. No any other person has the power vested in him to prosecute. This is deeply entrenched in their role. If there could be any role that we could play, it would be on the question that is still coming which is on the role of the central authority and liaison with the international community on behalf of law enforcement agencies in the country. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

 

 

 

Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, hon House Chair, I think the Minister has partially answered my question because I just wanted to know if it would not affect the separation of powers doctrine for the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services to give the instructions to the NPA or receive briefings on the outcome of criminal complaints? Would that not amount to interference? Thank you?

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: It does

 

amount to interference if I instruct the NPA to prosecute anyone because it is something that they themselves have to take a decision on informed by the facts and the law, nothing else. They have to do it in terms of the Constitution without any fear, favour or prejudice to anyone. As I said earlier, I am emphasising this, it is an exclusive terrain of the National Prosecuting Authority. No one else. Also, for the purpose of emphasis, I must state that interference with the work of the NPA is a criminal offence. Anyone who interferes can be sentenced to 10 years. There is no one who can instruct them to prosecute anyone. That is what the Constitution and the NPA Act says. Thank you very much. If hon members want to know my job description, they can check from the statement of

 

 

 

the President on what he has mandated me to do. It is to account to this House. The fact that members did not read my role, I want to forgive them for that.

 

 

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair, my question to the Minister is: if the hon Minister is of the opinion that the timeframes and chain of events of the Phala Phala game farm break-in and theft that came to the attention of the National Prosecuting Authority could be defended as reasonably fair and effective to ensure effective prosecution? Thank you, House Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much, House Chair, as you are aware, the matter is still under investigation. It might go to the NPA depending on the outcome of the investigation. It will also go to the courts depending on whatever is the outcome. It will be for the courts to judge the processes. From the department’ side, we always encourage all the role-players in the criminal justice system, that is the NPA, the Judiciary, the clerks and everyone who as a role to play to ensure that when a matter comes to the space, there is expeditious processes that enables matters to be handled as quickly as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

It is still important for me to remind the hon member that the matter is still under investigation. It is not on the table of the NPA for assessment or for taking any prosecutorial decision. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Question 327:

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much House Chair. The South African Police Service continues to implement the departmental gender based violence, GBVF, and sexual offences, GBV-SO action plan to ensure that GBVF and sexual offences are addressed through a coordinated approach by all SAPS.

 

 

GBV-SO action plan consists of the following five focus areas; enhancing policy framework, training and development of members, enhancing accountability and organisational performance of GBV cases, prevention of gender based violence and sexual offences and response care and victim support.

 

 

One of the key deliverables of the GBV-SO action plan is to enhance accountability and organisational performance at police stations in order to deal with GBV at that level.

 

 

 

GBV desks were concealed and the mechanism of ensuring coordination between services provided to victims and the handling of offenders in the GBV cases. Desks are aimed at ensuring that victims receive appropriate services which are sensitive to the needs of GBV.

 

 

GBV desks have been established at all police stations across the country. The GBV desk implementation guidelines were approved on 17 June 2022 and the GBV desk implementation plan was approved on 30 June 2022.

 

 

An audit is currently underway to assess the functionality of the GBV desk with the view to identify challenges and enhancing the performance of the GBV desk.

 

 

It should also be noted that designated victim friendly rooms are available at 1 017 police stations for purposes of ensuring that statements are taken in private to protect the victims’ dignity.

 

 

Alternatively, arrangements are made for private enrichment with the victim and those police stations that do not have designated ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

 

SAPS, SA Police Service, strives to enhance performance through adequate resources and investigation. All police stations are adequately resourced with the sexual assault evidence collection kits, 5% which 335% of the newly recruited are currently undergoing training with their located to the FCS, Family violence, Child protection and Sexual Offences.

 

 

All areas of GBV-SO action plan requires SAPS to implement GBV related prevention programmes and raise awareness. Provinces conduct the 365 days campaign programme which runs throughout the year.

 

 

The campaign include community based engagements such as crime dialogues, school based engagements, door to door engagements, radio/TV talks, imbizos. Information pamphlets are also distributed at shopping centres, malls and taxi ranks.

 

 

The campaign is connected in partnership with the CPFs, Community Policing Forum, faith based organisations and traditional leaders.

 

 

Committed engagements aim to educate communities by building inside into the factors that contribute to GBV, identify and

 

 

 

address various through reporting and inform communities on processes and procedures followed by GBVF cases so that they can contribute positively towards the cases. I thank you.

 

 

Ms N P PEACOCK: Thank you Hose Chair. Minister, the fight against gender based violence and fermicide cannot be won by police officers alone without the involvement of the community. Are the programmes in the police force to enhance the community and civil society involvement in the fight against gender based violence and fermicide?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, it is correct that this war cannot be won by the police or the law enforcement alone. Take it from the statistics we have that almost 50% of abused sexually attacked and raped women happen in their own homes and places where they are supposed to be safe and attacked by the people that are supposed to protect them like fathers, uncles, grandfathers and stepfathers and so forth.

 

 

So, it is important that not just communities out there but families themselves should be part of fighting this scourge. Indeed, that is why we want CPFs, churches, traditional and

 

 

 

all other structures to work together to achieve that. Thank you.

 

 

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you House Chair. The latest crime statistics once again prove that South Africa has become a war zone for women and children. In the last quarter 855 women and children were reportedly murdered, 11 734 cases of assault with GBH, grievous bodily harm, against women were reported and 1 670 against children.

 

 

Inspite of these horrific statistics, we continue to hear stories of women being turned away from police stations when opening cases against their abusive partners, we hear of female SAPS member who are harassed by their male counterparts and we know of all sexual offences reported, less than 10% of the cases are finalised due to largely shortage of police work was a result of the delays in providing DNA evidence.

 

 

In 2019 President Ramaphosa committed R1,6 billion to fight GBV, can the Minister tell us how much of this money was actually allocated to the police and how it was used to fight GBV? Thank you.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson as the hon member said, we concur that the scourge against women and children is something terrible that we must all fight but he also concurs that some of these victims’ perpetrators are family members, their fathers, uncles and that include young kids and around 50% will be from those kind of ...[Inaudible.]

 

 

Therefore, we are still around all our SAPS to say let us work with the families and communities out there.

 

 

The money that the member refers to that was allocated by the President would have come through Treasury but as the department, we have allocated R100 million extra to the top 30 stations that are mostly affected to fight the scourge and

R62 million extra to the same stations to ensure that they have immediate budget that does not follow the red tape of responding to things like rape kits and training the people that are supposed to work through the station. There are resources and those resources are increasing in the allocation of the immediate station to deal with this gender based violence issues. Thanks.

 

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: Minister, you and I should agree that no amount of comfort you can provide to victims will lead to successful prosecution. For as long the victim arrives at the police station at that GBV desk that has been created but sits there and waits for an FCF detective to start the process which after 4pm everyday only one detective on duty, on standby servicing more than five police stations and you can imagine the number of victims that come out of those five police stations meaning he or she can service two of those victims efficiently because you know how the process, you start at the police station, to the hospital, to the ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

They cannot drop the victim on the way and then back home throughout the night. If they work hard they can only service one victim.

 

 

Now, if the FCF units are still in a cluster form and not allocated and situated at each and every police station, we are not going to win the war of victims and GBV.

 

 

Now the question is, when are we getting the FCF units at each and every police station to be situated there just like all

 

 

 

the ordinary detectives that are at each and every police station?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I must remind you that we spoke about time. I gave you extra seconds to complete that. I am not doing that anymore colleagues, please. I am going to cut you. Let us stop with the preambles, cut our preambles within allocated time. It is important that you get answers but let us also respect the rules. The hon the Minister?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you hon Chair. I know that the member asks the questions that are familiar with the situation she is asking about. In her absence in that environment, we have grown. For instance, 9 000 new members have been trained to be at the police station desks and be dedicated to the duty of taking statements even before that member is allocated to the FCF.

 

 

But in the answer that has just been given, more than 300 new recruits have come out of the college on 15 December are already dedicated and recruited to go through this environment.

 

 

 

But prior, every station has the FCF and we are allocating a member to deal with that. But more than that, we have recruited new students that have completed their law degrees to be specifically trained to be placed at these top 30 stations so that we take an informed solid statement before they are handed over to FCF.

 

 

So a lot is done around this kind of scourge to ensure that we are solid from the very ground so that those cases see the light of the day when they go to court. Thank you.

 

 

Mr S N SWART: Thank you hon Minister by concurring that GBV is a scourge in society and for the comprehensive plans in place to try and address it. I am also sure that you will agree that the DNA lab issue plays a crucial role in the fight against crime and that there are so many matters such as rape, sexual assault and murder and other contact crimes that are dependent on the results from those labs.

 

 

Hon Minister you indicated that in March that the backlog will be cleared within six months and that will be October and we are not there yet but the ACDP appreciates the hard work done at the labs, we do, but up to 16 hour shifts.

 

 

 

According to the SAPS themselves, they have national backlogs of 143 795 in July and maybe it has now changed or reduced but will the hon Minister indicate whether it will be possible to clear the backlog or will significantly reduce in a month’s time given that there is an additional influx of approximately

18 000 new entries per month and given that that backlog leads to backlogs in court processes and that we know that justice delayed is justice denied? Thank you hon House Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I will start at tail end of the question. The NPA, National Prosecuting Authority, and the SA Police Service have agreed that those cases that are ready for court only delayed by the DNA can be fished up so that 14 200 of those cases have been done as a collaboration between the NPA, the laboratories and SAPS.

 

 

We had 541 backlogs in April and as of the end of this month we are 83 000 from 541 and we still expect to finish come October, if we cross the line, it cannot be beyond November.

 

 

We have done a lot to work on that. More people have been employed people that were part of the environment who were

 

 

 

sent home, 44 of those people are back here in Cape Town and eight of them are in Pretoria.

 

 

The Eastern Cape laboratory would be ready next year in September, which most of the Western Cape backlog comes from Eastern Cape. Once that laboratory has been fixed, everything will be fine.

 

 

All 16 contracts have been signed and are in order, all machines are working with the turnaround time and we are putting eight more as we want to make them 24 found the money for paying extra overtime for those people.

 

 

We believe that we are on track but after that we will keep this so that we never reach this element of having the backlog again. Thank you.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): As you sit down, may I request that there is a complaint that you are not properly audible, you must move closer to the microphone. Not here in the Chamber but to those on the virtual platform and offices. We will now proceed to question 355. May I request that all those on the virtual platform please open that participants

 

 

 

list and just must close to your name. It is a simple thing to do.

 

 

Question 355:

 

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, House Chair. The Department of Home Affairs does not currently have a legislative provision that regulates how Muslim marriages, marriage officers should perform the nikah.

 

 

The White Paper on Marriages in South Africa that was approved by Cabinet in March this year identified this as part of a problem statement. To address this matter, the White Paper has policy provisions for more inclusive marriage laws that will not discriminate against people with the different religious or cultural believes. Perhaps, hon member I might remind this House that we started as far back as 2019, to come up with a new marriage policy, it started with a Green Paper.

 

 

So unfortunately, important things were lost because everybody in the country unfortunately including this House were talking of only one issue on that proposal. They were talking about polyandry and everything else false off. But eventually, we were able to proceed to the level of the White Paper and the

 

 

 

Cabinet adopted it. As I am talking now we are busy with drafting the legislation. The general agreement is that that legislation must be omnibus. We must put a marriage legislation for South Africans, not for Muslims, not for Africans, not for whites etc. That is what we are busy with and we believe by the end of this financial year, we will submit that draft to Cabinet then it will come to Parliament.

 

 

Recently, on the 28th of June the Constitutional Court confirmed a ruling of the Supreme Court of Appeal whereby a certain section of the prevalent Marriage Act 25 of 1961, and the Divorce Act of 1979, certain provisions of this act were declared unconstitutional because they are not consistent with section 9 of the Constitution, section 10 of the Constitution, section 28 of the Constitution, and section 34 of the Constitution. In the meantime, we can’t wait for that new act.

 

 

What we are doing in the meantime is that we have taken a decision... In January 2022, we have given a directive that enables people to enter into Muslim marriages and register them in terms of the Recognition of Customary Marriages Act

120 of 1998. Before that Constitutional Court judgement if Muslims want their marriages to be recognised, they had to re-

 

 

 

register it under the Civil Marriages Act of 1961, that is why it was recognised as unconstitutional.

 

 

At the moment, all they have to do is this, they must bring two representatives during the registration of the customary marriage, one from either family. There must be a Muslim marriage certificate submitted. Both spouses must consent to be married to each other under the Muslims marriage and both spouses must submit their identity documents, IDs for verification with the National Population Register. Where one spouse has passed, the surviving one must submit a sworn affidavit.

 

 

Lastly, we have been training the Imams and register them as marriage officers. The Imams have been officiating Muslim marriages and they will continue to do so. The Department of Home Affairs offers training for any person who wants to be a marriage officer. And after the act would have been passed we will train all marriages officers not Muslims, not Christians, not Africans and not white but marriage officers. Thank you very much, House Chair.

 

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon House Chair. It is the legacy that the Minister is leaving behind that had allowed me to ... [Inaudible.] today on women’s Month. He is starting to restore the dignity of Muslim wives. Today, like I said is the last day, it is also my 47th wedding anniversary.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Happy anniversary, tata[sir].

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: ... [Inaudible.] ... my wedding celebration, proof of the lobola [dowry] I paid as a bride price called ... [Inaudible.] ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. You will sing for him after the session

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: ... according to the custom ... [Inaudible.] ... After the Constitutional Court judgement and other High Court judgements, if I go to home affairs and take all that with me, will I get a valid South African marriage certificate stating “Out of community of property” as directed by the Constitutional Court judgement?

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chair, let me start by congratulating him too. That is quite an achievement. Hon Chair, as I have already said, after the Constitutional Court ruling, this is not a problem anymore because we have put stopgap measures and I am sure my counterpart department, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is also doing the same under the Divorce Act because it has also been declared unconstitutional.

 

 

But at the moment I don’t think people who are marrying under Muslim rights are having any problem. Whether there is a divorce or what it will be handled in the same way as other divorces are handled. The Constitutional Court emphasized that they are doing this in the interest of women and children.

That is why they are quoting section 65 of the Constitution which talks about the right of the child. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr K B PILLAY: Thank you very much, House Chair. Hon Minister, what legislative developments are in place to address these anomalies? And will it make for provision for the protection of rights of women? And lastly, what are the timeframes?

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, I thought I have already answered most of the questions. May be the hon member did not hear me. I am saying, at the moment we have issued a directive in January. All our offices will know what to do if somebody presents a document or a certificate proving that they were married by a male Muslim bride. They will then be recognised in terms of Customary Marriages Act of 1998. That is what will be happening in the meantime. And I said, we are busy drafting. The White Paper is already accepted by Cabinet. Somebody asked me here whether polyandry is a law? No. it was a debate in the Green Paper, it is no longer there in the White Paper. So the act is being developed in terms of the White Paper. And I said, we believe by the end of this financial year the Bill will be presented to Cabinet and once the Cabinet pass it will come to members here and they will go on, on the process of legislating a new marriages act which is an omnibus act that will cover everybody. Thank you.

 

 

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. I will ask the follow up question on behalf of hon van der Merwe.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, hon member.

 

 

 

Hon Minister, this question deals with Muslim marriages but the fact is that your department has long been grappling with matters pertaining to fraudulent marriages. People find that they are married to strangers in the home affairs system while syndicates and individual recruit young girls to marry foreign nationals in order for them to access work permits.

 

 

Added to that, your department has also contended with the prevalence of fake IDs, or fake passports and fake residence permits with your internal report of your department suggesting that up to 40% of residency, work, study and retirement visas has been fraudulently obtained. All these points to a Department of Home Affairs in deep crisis. Can you outline the steps you are taking to fix the department that is clearly overrun with fraud and corruption?

 

 

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I thought you would remind her that the questions she has asked, all of them question that have got nothing to do with this question. Absolutely nothing. Zero! But the hon member must listen very carefully. Because she has mentioned almost everything that is happening in home affairs, including fraudulent passports. She may hold her horses, there is a question here about what is

 

 

 

being done. She also spoke about fraudulent marriages, we have already outlined the steps that have been taken when people go to marry in order to reduce fraudulent marriages. For instance, in the past it was possible for a man to go alone to home affairs with documents and register a marriage and say I am married customary. We no longer allow that. If anybody must register a marriage, both people must come. No man can go and register a marriage alone as it was happening in the past.

 

 

As to all the other things that you have questioned, if the Chairperson would give me an hour I will outline them. So you can negotiate with the Chairperson, hon member. If she allows that hour I would definitely outline all the other things you have mentioned. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Minister, the Muslim marriage appear to be a little bit more complicated than that. I heard you saying that both spouses must be present and I know it is often misinterpreted as far as Muslim marriage. In fact, according to the Muslim custom having two, three or four wives is discouraged and that is why it talks about if you cannot treat them all equally in every aspect you stick to one. And people do not go to that level. If somebody

 

 

 

is taking a second wife and you say both spouses must be there, if I understand you. What must now happen to the first wife now that you are taking a new wife? Must the first wife also be present or not? it is going to cause some level of complication. That is why you find Minister, many Muslim organisations are not pushing for it. They are divided on what is in the best interest of the community.

 

 

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, if you followed the debate from the Green Paper to the White Paper, you will realise that the complexity is not only with Muslim marriages. It’s no more complex than the issues that were mentioned there and that were happening in African communities. For instance, we even mentioned that there are people who are kings by virtue of having been given birth in a particular type of marriage which is not recognised in a South African law. So it gets more complicated than that. I am not going to claim to be an expert in Muslim marriages. But the person who helped to bring the Department of Home Affairs from where it was is the former Deputy Minister of Home Affairs who was a member of this House, who herself is a practicing Muslim, hon Chohan.

And we took whatever she was saying because we thought she

 

 

 

understand better from here vantage position of practicing Muslim. She is the one who guided us through this thing.

 

 

But I want emphasize that the complexity is not only with Muslim marriages. There are many others. That’s why when the Bill comes here in front of Parliament, I am sure there are going to be lots of debate about what must be adopted and what must not. At the moment, I just know that what we dropped is polyandry because it was causing sparks and war throughout the whole land and it is not in the White Paper. Thank you very much.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much, Minister. Hon members, before we proceed to the next question, let’s also remind ourselves about the format of the supplementary question which is on Rule 142(6). That a supplementary question must arise directly from the original question. Please. I won’t stop the Minister from answering if he wants to but it will depend on him. But let’s just know that there is such a rule as the Minister was alluding to hon Majozi.

 

 

 

Let us also observe Rule 64(g) which talks to taking of photos in the House. I know you do that but don’t make it obvious.

Please. Don’t raise your camera and do that because the rules don’t allow.

 

 

Question 330:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you,

 

Chair. The Ministry of Defence directs the defence industry to support the 18 priority initiatives for the Public-Private Growth Initiatives through negotiating contracts, through contracting via the aerospace, contracted such as Denel Aviation, the Information and Communication Technology, ICT, in partnership with the Department of Communications, manufacturing and throughout the rest of the South African industry.

 

 

Chair, Armaments Corporation of SA, ARMSCOR, remains the main contracting agency for the Department of Defence, and reports directly to us. The defence industry, is recognised by the Defence department as a fully fleshed economic sector that has a potential to significantly contribute towards the economy of South Africa through job creation, skills development and the export earnings that it brings in.

 

 

 

 

 

Interventions have been initiated, focusing on ensuring the sustainability of foreign strategic industries which are at risk, and which may disrupt the interdependency within the SA Defence Industry, SADI. The National Defence Industry Council, NDIC, was established to address the industry’s challenges.

Its objectives are to make sure that the industry’s products and services are actually in support of the SA National Defence Force.

 

 

The ARMSCOR as the acquisition and clearing house on behalf of SA Local Government Association, Salga, is also used as the platform, to promote the local SA Defence Industry abroad, and this has yielded very good returns for the country. We also want to say that, with the budget cuts, with Denel in decline, the business almost collapsed with 750 private companies which were dependent on Denel. We are doing everything we can to resuscitate it.

 

 

Whether or not, the defence appreciates their trade, the answer is yes. Before they leave the country to their destinations, they do go to the course, and they become our agents. They understand the defence industry because they have

 

 

 

been there, and they carry with them whatever material they tend to promote. We have find out that, it is not just the SA Defence Industry that does that, all the other defence cartels do the same thing. So, they become salesmen of their countries when it comes to the things and the tools of trade that they have been using.

 

 

So, it is important for us to acknowledge that ours are also on top of the game. They work interterm with the deployed employees from the Department of Public Enterprise and the Trade and Industry in the Embassies. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Ms T I LEGWASE: Thank you, hon House Chair, and thank you, hon Minister for the response. Minister, because the growth of the defence industry is linked to the skills development within the defence force. How will the department ensures that there is a requisite skill linked to the growth of the defence industry? Thank you very much, House Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Part of our

 

networking, part of ensuring that the defence industry from time to time interacts with the other defence industries out there, part of our trips and engaging with other Ministers and

 

 

 

in other countries, is to always ensure that we keep up to, and we also know what the other hub has. We look into our cupboards and we see what our needs are. But we also send our youngsters to the universities and technological spaces where they acquire the skills.

 

 

We also want to use the resuscitation of Denel and whatever we might call it in the future. We also want to ensure that all the youngsters of South Africa, black and white, get into this innovative space. We want to acknowledge that the worlds of the past are something that will be in the past. So, we need the young brains to come on board. Therefore, there should be initiatives to open up many training spaces abroad and internally here at home, that will enable us to keep our industries young and innovative.

 

 

We also want to continue to call for the return of the 5% in research and development, RAD, in all our budgets, to ensure that at all times we are not cognately, we can fund innovators, research and development into the future. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

 

Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, any defence industry’s reputation relies heavily on the support of their own government and the defence force. The ARMSCOR and the Defence Force do not fulfil a single prime mission equipment product from some of our most successful defence industry companies who are responsible, incidentally, for the majority of our defence exports. This is a wrong message to the highly competitive international defence industry, and it is a questionable government priority.

 

 

Is the Minister prepared to commit herself to new co-operative public-private partnerships with the SA Defence Industry or some of our defence prime mission equipment quotas, to help our crippling defence force to regain its physical capability as well as to assist with our defence industry’s sustainability? I thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you,

 

Chairperson. Hon Marais, yes, I am prepared to commit, and that is why, the rebuilding of our defence industry is important. During our hosting of the UN Secretary in July, we were quite impressed with what the SA Defence Industry can put out. We actually challenged the defence industry by saying

 

 

 

that, we want to be the sales people. We also want to show off the South African products by using them.

In that statement it means that, we want to see the SA Defence Industry being our first line of suppliers so that, we don’t want to go shopping elsewhere, so that the money actually rotates internally here. That is why it is also important for us to look at technology and training of South Africans, so that we can really do what we need to do best. I do know that, in the 90s, we have lost quite a bit. The government has invested in the, for instance, 6 square, I square.

 

 

I’m one of those who were really holding for the results in this Parliament, because we invested. We did not use the technology, America took the technology [Inaudible.]. So, it is always important to invest and harvest from your own batch. Thank you.

 

 

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, the recent report indicates that, the SA National Defence Force, SANDF is so broke that it is unable to narrow any meaningful defence of the country, should the need arise. Now, the critical equipment is not maintained, and some of the aircraft are unable to fly because of the lack of maintenance. All

 

 

 

these weaknesses were identified in the 2015 defence review. Did the department take any steps to curb the total collapse of the defence force after the publication of the defence review? If it did, what has led to the abyssal state of the SANDF, and what are you doing to prevent the collapse of the SANDF? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: It’s a very new

 

question, but I will try and respond. Is the SANDF unable to defend South Africa? The SANDF is able to defend South Africa. There are critical equipment that we really need, but there are also those that we have been able to use. For instance, my friend over there, hon Marais, have verified it. But one of the things that some of us have been able to do is, to getting into the army, there are aircrafts that almost all of them are getting repaired. What we do need, is to look at new technology here.

 

 

So, yes, inside South Africa, we are able to do certain things. Where we think that we need to acquire, is to ease in the upgrade, and that is why it is important for us to invest in RAD by resuscitating our own aircraft and recruit back the expertise that may have been lost. I would like to quote the

 

 

 

under UN Secretary, he said to us that, we must not undermine the members of the SA National Defence Force because, through our lens, throughout the world, the bravest fighter in the world, are these sons and daughters of South Africa. So, yes, we will be able to look after you.

 

 

But we are also using whatever ... [Interjections.] ... that can be undertaken to ensure that we go out there, and we meet the prime mission equipment we’ve got, to try and get ... [Inaudible.] ... because that is one of our problems, getting self for rehearse. We are sometimes being ripped off by the South African companies because their prices are high. So, we are looking at all the other ways to ensure that every piece of equipment is serviced and it is useful to the country.

Thank you, Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The last follow-up will be from Inkoi Cebekhulu. Is there anyone from the IFP? Over to you, hon Singh.

 

 

Mr N SINGH: Yes, thank you very much. It seems that the Inkosi is having problems to connect. Hon Chairperson, thank you for that. Hon Minister, you know, Denel has been for many years

 

 

 

one of the flagships of the SA Defence Industry in terms of manufacture and sale of equipment. But unfortunately, in the recent past, given their financial woes that were administered towards staff problems, it puts on a dent on the way that Denel have been operating.

 

 

So, given those challenges, hon Minister, what do you see that will enable Denel to return to its flagship status? Secondly, are you comfortable in acquiring equipment from Denel for the SA Defence Force? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you,

 

Chair. Denel was established by the South African government, therefore, it must continue to be the main producer of our main equipment. Denel is South African, and it has seen where it started. Should we put the blame wholly at the pit of Denel? I have said that the answer is no. We are also looking at ARMSCOR and its contribution towards the demise of Denel? What are the decisions that we took? Did we guide properly or did we watch out? So, we’re doing the whole introspection so that, when we are asking Treasury t give us some money to resuscitate Denel, we do not go the same way of putting money into it and seeing the money being wasted.

 

 

 

 

 

We have also been investing in IT, therefore, we are looking for new players, the youngsters, to not only draw and dream, but to produce and become real innovators. So, Denel of the future I’m hoping for, will be stronger, will be more resistant to flights, and hopefully, we will continue to be consistent in funding and innovation, so that we keep our industry. Denel and the other companies contributes a lot into the fiscus of this country. Therefore, we are beginning to even say to the Minister in the Presidency that, he should be able to indicate, how much is to be ploughed back into the defence industry and the defence itself, when he gets the money from the sales?

 

 

This should be done because, we have a circulation that matters. It also makes us all to be loyal to one another. As I said earlier on, there is interdependence in the industry. If one company fails, maybe it was the one that was producing ... [Inaudible.] ... then we have a chain reaction of collapse. We want to avoid that. Thank you.

 

 

Question 339:

 

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND

 

CO-OPERATION (Mr A Botes): House Chairperson, the role of South Africa’s Heads of Missions is to find markets for South Africa’s exports by marketing our country as a preferred investment and tourism destination.

 

 

Further to that, Madam House Chair, the South Africa’s Heads of Missions are implementing our economic diplomacy programmes informed and guided by the President’s state of the nation address, our country’s economic recovery and reconstruction plan, the social compact and the National Development Plan, NDP, and very importantly, House Chair, is the national interest framework document and efforts, of course, to attract the 1,2 trillion worth of investment, in terms of commitment made by the President.

 

 

In addition to that, hon Chairperson, the Heads of Missions’ key mandate includes amongst others: Firstly, the fortification of relations and networking with organized business and captains of industries in the countries of practation.

 

 

 

Secondly, to organize various business engagements targeted in general, and of course, undertaking market intelligence exercises in the interest of the South African government.

 

 

Thirdly, to attend to the issues about investor-management matters and working, obviously, with tourism stakeholders in promoting South Africa’s diverse offering.

 

 

And three, Chairperson, ongoing engagement with those investment promotion agencies and state-owned enterprises, SOEs, for deeper understanding for South Africa’s priority product.

 

 

We want to, obviously, emphasise, hon Chairperson, that the coming into the operation of the African continental free trade agreement is an important arsenal in the repository of the Heads of Missions representing South Africa in regard to continental economic integration.

 

 

To underscore this, Chairperson, South Africa has a diplomatic presence in 53 of the 55 African Union, AU, member states and the Minister Department of International Relations and Cooperation, Dirco, Dr Pandor, launched the coordination

 

 

 

mechanism for economic diplomacy to enhance and promote the sharing and strengthening of South Africa’s broader approach to economic diplomacy initiatives. Thank you very much, Madam House Chair.

 

 

Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, can I just bring your attention to Rule 138(3), where a Minister may authorise his or her deputy to reply to a question, which the hon Botes has just done.

However, when the screen flashed, the hon Pandor’s name came on, the zoom platform. So, is she on the zoom platform or is she not? Because if she is on the zoom platform she needs to answer the questions.

 

 

Can you just confirm if the hon Minister is indeed on the platform? Because then she should be answering the questions and not the Deputy Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon, we have been informed here as this table and myself that the hon Deputy Minister Botes will be responding to the questions, until further information, we remain at that. Thank you. [Interjections.] No, let it not be a debate. I didn’t see ... [Interjections.]

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon

 

Chairperson, if I may.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, you want to speak, hon Pandor?

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Yes.

 

Thank you, hon Chairperson. We had informed the Office of the Presiding Officer, I believe it should have been the Speaker, that I will connect and will answer and should my connection fail, as I’m out of the country, the hon Botes would then assume the responsibility. We had communicated this and I’m a little surprised, hence the picture appearing, so, I thought you would call on me.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. No, now we have further information that’s something ... we will be asking the Minister to respond. But what we heard is what I said prior.

 

 

Mr S H MBUYANE: Comrade Chair, the support of the South African businesses to benefit from business opportunities abroad require coordination with the government, other departments and entities.

 

 

 

 

 

How is the department coordinating the overall support from South Africa’s businesses to explore business opportunities abroad? Thank you very much.

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:

 

Chairperson, I believe the hon Botes did answer the question

 

... can I proceed, Chair?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, please!

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: The

 

hon Botes did answer. With respect to the coordinating mechanism that we established across departments, we also have very close liaison between ourselves as the Department of International Relations and ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

In addition, we work very closely with the Trade and Industry Department and Ministry, which are responsible for supporting and assisting business with international co-operation initiatives.

 

 

 

You would be aware and hon members would be aware, Chairperson, that the hon President encourages the business missions to travel when he undertakes state visits and we often host business fora with business leaders in countries that we pay working visits to and that the President undertakes state visits to.

 

 

In fact, we have found that these business for a have become so popular that we have begun to think that we may need to, independent of state visits, initiate such fora in order to encourage co-operation between South African businesses and businesses in different parts of the continent and certainly worldwide. Thank you much, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Mr D BERGMAN: House Chairperson, the Minister has to know that economic diplomacy is dead in the water. I mean if we are

grey-listed, this threat and the inefficiency of home Affairs to issue visas on time or to do away with visas for countries that we should be throwing out the red carpet to in terms of tourism and investments if economic diplomacy is our goal.

Clearly has a problem with setting her own department’s diplomatic goals when her objectives transcend other departments.

 

 

 

 

 

What we need to understand is whether there’s political will so sort this out in Cabinet meetings by our Minister and her counterparts or like the national interest documents, is economic diplomacy just a fairy-tale where we sell en-route to the ANC’s attempts to drown South Africa in radical economic transformation?

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon

 

Chairperson, I think the hon member is aware that economic diplomacy is, in fact, working extremely well. He would be aware that the President had set a target of attracting foreign direct investment to South Africa and that the targets we have set in a period less than five years have, in fact, been reached or are very close to being reached in that 95% of the target was reached in three years. This means our economic diplomacy is working, in that we’ve succeeded because we wading investors from outside South Africa that are our country’s an attractive destination and that they should invest their resources and establish class and businesses in our country.

 

 

 

Furthermore, the hon member is fully aware that we have, with the leadership of Minister Motswaledi, recast our visa regime and it has become far more attractive, particularly putting in place the e-visa system and allowing for visa-free access or attaining visa on arrival in South Africa. All of these are additions to our own armour to advance economic growth and development in South Africa and they will and are bearing positive outcomes already. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Ms N N CHIRWA: Minister, the United States, US, is processing a Bill in terms of which countries that are seen as close to Russia would be punished in terms of trade and other forms of assistance.

 

 

While we welcome your utterances when you engaged the US Secretary of the State, when he came over here in South Africa, what practical actions has the department taken to protect the country’s sovereignty in terms of international trade?

 

 

And as far as attracting investments is concerned, what engagements has the country had with Russia to assist in both

 

 

 

our energy and our oil needs? If not, why have this not happened? Why has the Minister not done this?

 

 

And lastly, why has the Minister not made means to ensure that she is engaging with Russia? Thank you very much, Chairperson.

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon

 

Chairperson, firstly, with respect to the Bill that was adopted by the House of Representatives, it’s a member’s Bill

... Private Member’s Bill, we would call it in the South African Parliament. This Bill was adopted and I believe by parties and fashioned by both members of Democrats as well as the Republican Party, it is still to be considered by Senate Congress in the United States and we are liaising and planning meetings with all the leadership in the House in order to indicate our displeasure with respect to this Bill.

 

 

We’ve worked closely with the African Union Commission that has made very clear statements on this legislation. We’ve also worked very well with African Ministers of Foreign Affairs.

The Southern African Development Community, SADC, issued a statement on this. So, we have upped the activity with respect

 

 

 

to lobbying and we’ll carry on this work as we proceed to the United Nations General Assembly in September.

 

 

With respect to Russia, it is not International Relations that works with those who lead in the energy and petroleum space in Russia, it would by my colleague, Minister Mantashe, and he might speak to that but I can confirm that we are in contact with all the relevant contacts in Russia and I recently ... just yesterday had a discussion with Minister Lavrov on various matters related to relationship between South Africa and the Russian Federation. So, we do continue to engage with that country just as we do with many others. I thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Minister, one of the unintended developments of globalisation is the participation of non-state actors in economic diplomacy in particular. As you know in the past, traditionally, diplomacy has been the prerogative of ambassadors and other people that are state actors.

 

 

But now with the rise of non-state actors in economic diplomacy, what role has your department played to ensure that those efforts are coordinated properly with the non-state

 

 

 

actors and other sectors of society to ensure that we maximise the benefit that South Africa gets from its economic diplomacy policy and strategy? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon

 

Chairperson, non-state actors can be amenable to engagement with governments, others might not be and so, one can’t make an assumption that all of them would be institutions that you would engage with or partner with.

 

 

But in South Africa we are fortunate that there are many such institutions, organizations, this includes academics, think

... [Inaudible.] ... business organizations that we work very closely with and who would, from time to time, either advise us or indeed become the lead in executing aspects of work that are relevant to our economic diplomacy. So, we do work closely and I’m pleased that this even straddles into the creative sectors, which are an important sector for opportunity for business and for employment in South Africa and worldwide.

 

 

So, wherever the opportunity arises, where minds meet, we do take up the opportunity to work closely with such organizations, even working closely with non-governmental

 

 

 

organizations that might share particular aspirations that we have about socioeconomic transformation as the government of South Africa. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

 

 

Question 323:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House

 

Chairperson ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Minister, you are tall, these mics are so short ... [Inaudible.] ... try to do something to help us, please! [Laughter.]

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Can I sit

 

down?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I don’t like the sitting down but sometimes we have no choice.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: [Laughter.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It doesn’t fit the decorum of the House to sit down while you respond but I have no choice, please ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: That’s

 

fine. I’m in your capable hands, House Chairperson.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, sir!

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House

 

Chairperson, during September 2020 the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, Dirco, forwarded a request received from the Republic of Namibia for mutual legal assistance in the matter of Noordoewer, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.

 

 

Hon members should note that when this mutual legal assistance was requested, it was known to the officials that it had any link to the Phala Phala matter or to the President of the Republic of South Africa, President Ramaphosa.

 

 

The Chief Directorate: International Legal Relations attended to the request as a standard request for mutual legal assistance. The only information supplies in the request mentioned that the Namibian authorities are investigating a

 

 

 

docket - as I’ve mentioned - Noordoewer, which relates to three suspects, namely: Messrs Davis, Afrikaner and Shikango.

 

 

During October 2020 the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development forwarded the request to the Special Commercial Crimes Unit, SCCU, of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, for their consideration.

 

 

The hon member should note that all requests involving financial crimes are forwarded to the SCCU to ensure that the request doesn’t involve foreign bribery. This practice is followed as South Africa is party to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development’s Convention Against Bribery of Public Officials in International Business Transactions.

 

 

After the SCCU informed the department that the request may be processed, it was allocated to an official within the Chief Directorate: International Relations and Legal, during March 2021.

 

 

 

The official perused the request with the view of establishing whether the requirements of the International Co-operation and Criminal Matters Act of 1996 were met.

 

 

The official concluded that the request did not meet the requirements. A letter in this regard was compiled by the official setting out the inadequacies and requesting that an amended request be forwarded to the Department of Justice. The letter was forwarded to Dirco for onward transmission to Namibian High Commission.

 

 

It should be noted that due to the COVID-19 pandemic as well as the ransom ... [Inaudible.] ... on the department during the relevant period, certain delays were experienced in processing the request.

 

 

During August 2021 Dirco forwarded a letter and not verbal to the Namibian High Commission. Receipt of the not verbal was acknowledged by the Namibian High Commission during September 2021.

 

 

On 14 July 2022 the director-general approved and signed a letter addressed to the Namibian Central Authority advising

 

 

 

them of the above mentioned events and indicating South Africa’s willingness to continue rendering necessary legal assistance to the authorities in Namibia relating to this matter.

 

 

To date, the department has not yet received an amended request that meet the requirements and any response from the Namibian authorities. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Mr W HORN: House Chair, as you know I’m nearly as tall as the Minister, so, I don’t whether I should stand. [Laughter.]

 

 

Minister, on the 21st of June this year you, with great conviction, announced that “We categorically state that there is no record of this request.”

 

 

To follow this, just more than a month later on the 26th of July, with the self-contradictory statement which claimed that the reason for your initial denial of the request was that it was not made “Specifically in relation to Mr David Immanuwela”. Yet the same statement admits that while the file was not open, in the name of Mr Emmanuela, he, along with

 

 

 

Afrikaner and Chikango, were in fact the three suspects named in the docket and the request.

 

 

This means, Minister, there is two options. The first is total inaptitude and a lack of professionalism. Even that the name used for the search was not the one on the file cover, it was quickly determined that there was no request. Which will be the same as argue that because somebody is not accused number one in a criminal trial but only accused number two or three have been never really an accused. An absolute ludicrous proposition.

 

 

Alternatively, Minister, this is a very bad attempt to explain away a decision to frustrate and delay the request, as far as possible, given that if a criminal trial in Namibia ensue, you and this government will have very little control over what information, regarding the break-in and the dealings of the President will be put on public record there.

 

 

Now, Minister, which of these two reasons informed your very embarrassing denial in June, that this request ever existed? Thank you.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House

 

Chairperson, both propositions are not problematic because – as I’ve said – that when the department officials received the request, at the time, no one knew that this relates to Phala Phala nor the President of the Republic, neither did anyone in this House knew about that. So, they dealt with request as per the protocol, as per the Act that governs mutual legal assistance.

 

 

It is only when there was a statement issued by the Namibian Police which stated that there is request that was provided to us on the name Mr David Immanuwela. That we then investigated ourselves when we saw the statement that there is this request regarding this matter of Phala Phala from the officials to tell us whether they have received this request and what happened to the request.

 

 

The officials looked at the name of David Immanuwela and looked with regard to ... whether there was such a request. And it was related back to us that there is no request in the name of David Immanuwela.

 

 

 

But, we, therefore, did not stop there. We went to the Namibian High Commissioner to ask whether they have received such a request, whether they have provided it to us, including Dirco, as per the protocol. There was confirmation even from the Namibian High Commissioner that indeed there’s no such.

 

 

But the Namibian High Commissioner then reverted back to us after he has found a confirmation that there was such, including Dirco, then confirmed. They were able to trace it back and confirm that indeed there was a request ... [Time expired.]

 

 

Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Minister, in the spirit of co- operation in the region and in the world, which other countries does South Africa plan to have extradition treaties and mutual assistance agreements with? And how far is this process? Thank you, hon Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House

 

Chairperson, we do have agreements with the number of countries across the globe. We are also a signatory to the International Convention in relations to International Co-

 

 

 

operation on Mutual Legal Assistance including extraditions, which we use from time to time.

 

 

If, for example, we find that it’s a country where we do not have this kind of agreement, we are still able to revert or use those international conventions to deal with some of the requests, particularly those countries are also signatories to the United Nations, UN, Convention.

 

 

But with regard to the specific reference on this matter of our Namibian counterparts, we continue to have mutual co- operation, we continue to work very well, cordially with the Namibian and from time to time we follow the same procedure we followed on this matter. If we want clarification we do the same, if they want clarification there is mutual co-operation. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, the issue of requirements ... [Laughter.] ... sorry, Minister.

 

 

Mr Minister, the issue of requirements does not arise, so, you must not play politics here. So, we must fight crime, whether it’s committed by the President or committed by a lay person

 

 

 

on the ground. Because all evidence is there that in June 2020 the Head of the Presidential Protection Unit, General Wally Roots, together with the Presidential Advisor, Benjamin Chauke, travelled to Windhoek two weeks after the Namibian authorities had arrested the key suspect in the theft of Mr Ramaphosa, Phala Phala, illicit foreign currency at his farm.

 

 

It is also a fact that the Namibians have been requesting this information that you are saying that ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately, hon member, as I asked the preambles, your time is up. Can you please ask the question!

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Aah, Chairperson.

 

 

So, I want to ask you: Are you a Minister that is defending their principal to the bitter end despite mounting evidence against him?

 

 

He’s going to deploy you, don’t worry. Just arrest him.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please don’t do what you’re doing. I’ve been giving people extra seconds. I warned her, I gave her ... I asked her to ask the question and she went straight to the question. Don’t know what the noise is about.

 

 

Proceed, hon Minister.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: You have no

 

role as to who becomes a Minister or not, it’s only the President.

 

 

The International Co-operation in Criminal Matters Act of 1996 is what is guiding us in this process with the Namibian authorities and the bilateral agreements that we have. There is nothing else.

 

 

We are also following all the diplomatic protocols that have been put in place between the two countries. And from time to time, we engage with the Namibian authorities, follow the same procedure. When something does not meet requirements we do tell them, and even from our side from time to time they also engage with us on the same kind of discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

So, there is nothing untoward, this is normal international processes in terms of the diplomatic channels that we are expected to follow. And as I’ve said, we continue to comply with the requirements of the Act and the treaty.

 

 

If there’s any response that comes from them, we will treat it in the same procedure that is expected by the law. Thank you, hon House Chair.

 

 

Mr F J MULDER: Hon Minister, according to the hon Minister on what basis or for what reason do you think the Namibian government, to the knowledge of the Minister, claim that the Department of Justice and Correctional Services refuse to provide legal assistance in the case involving Immanuwela David, the alleged mastermind in the Phala Phala break-in and robbery? Thank you, hon Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House

 

Chair, as I’ve said, we have sent a Noordoewer letters to the Namibian authorities on the matter and not only one. In August 2021 we sent a Noordoewer with regard to the fact that it does not meet the requirements and again on the 14th of July when

 

 

 

there was this media or public statement, we again issued or send another Noordoewer informing the Namibian authority when we realised that we had sent them a letter earlier on, state that their request does not meet the requirements in terms of the Act and that is where we are expected to do in terms of the International Co-operation and Criminal Matters Act of 1996.

 

 

So, we stand ready to engage, we stand ready to help with whatever information that the Namibian authorities may seek or want from us as long as it is in compliance with the Act.

Thank you, hon Chair.

 

 

Question 358:

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chair, the answer is no. The SA Police service was not used to investigate the alleged break in and theft, or to pursue the alleged perpetrators. The alleged break in and theft at the Phala Phala Game Farm, is however currently under investigation by the Director of Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI known as Hawks. Thank you Chair.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Chair!

 

 

 

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Yes, madam speaker.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Shembeni!

 

 

Mr H A SHEMBENI: Hon Minister, are you saying that the Police Commissioner General ... [Inaudible] ... did not use the state resources ...[Interjections] ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Shembeni!

 

 

Mr H A SHEMBENI: The state resources like the helicopter and other police officials, were not used and the ... [Inaudible]

... in detecting the movement of the suspects in Namibia on the theft of the ... [Inaudible] ... foreign currency, and that he did not or who did this without the knowledge of the former Police Commissioner Khehla Sithole. If he did, was this authorised or did the Commissioner commit a crime by using state resources to cover up for the President’s crimes? If he did, what action will be taken against him. Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well to start with, General Fannie Masemola was not the National Commissioner at the time.

 

 

 

Therefore, if he did, he would have reported to the National Commissioner and I guess the permission would have been granted. Nonetheless, if the National Commissioner did not know, the report to the Minister never arrived that such operations did take place. If anybody has that information and evidence, would not be a problem to give that information to the Minister of Police and therefore or thereafter, the correct procedures will be followed. But it remains an information and we usually work on evidence. Thank you.

 

 

Ms G P MAREKWA: Thank you, hon House Chair. We do appreciate that investigations are underway on the Phala Phala break in, and believe that the law enforcement agencies will do their work without fear or favour. Now hon Minister, will you undertake to continuously update Parliament, including the nation on any developments regarding this matter? Thank you, Chairperson

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the answer is yes. Thank you Chair.

 

 

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you very much as House Chair. Section

 

12 of the Presidential Handbook is clear in 12.1 where it says

 

 

 

that, SA Police Service, SAPS takes full responsibility for the security of the President which includes under 12.3(ii), I quote:

 

 

Static protection at all official and private residences and office accommodation used from time to time during the term of office

 

 

In reply to my recent written parliamentary question regarding whether SAPS was on duty at Phala Phala at the time of the robbery, the Minister said that they were not. In the same reply, the Minister stated that they were deployed there following the robbery and we know from the Presidential Handbook that they should have been there in the first place. So, can the Minister explain to this House and the South African public, why no static protection was stationed at Phala Phala at or before the time of the robbery?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the President has a Presidential Protection Unit, PPU. That is a unit that works within the protection of the President ...[Interjections] ... wherever he is, wherever he goes. That unit directly reports to the National Commissioner of the SA Police Service. As

 

 

 

operations, that is not necessarily now and again reported to National Minister of the SA Police Service. What one would know is that, wherever the President is, whether home or any other place where he is, he would be protected. So, one would assume that there were members of the SA Police Service in that particular area as one knows, as seated here that the matter was reported to the head of the PPU as the protection of the President. That will be my answer Chair.

 

 

Mr S M JAFTA: Hon Chair, the criminal complaint on the Phala Phala matter was allegedly not opened, because it might have compromised the security of the President. Does that mean criminal complaints have an expiry date, and that if a criminal complaint is not opened at a particular time, it cannot be opened at any time in the future?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I am not sure whether I understand the question but I will answer the way I understand it. Chairperson, as we speak now, the case has been opened.

Some cases are opened early; some take some time. You will remember Chair that as we are seated here cases of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC, the apartheid cases that have been opened. So, I guess, they have taken some time. It

 

 

 

is not something new that some cases have delayed to be opened. This one has been opened, but because of its nature, it is not investigated at the station where it was opened which I guess is the Bela-Bela Police Station, but has been taken over by the DPCI. It is at that level that it is investigated. Indeed, it might have taken some time but it has been opened and it is under investigation. Thank you very much.

 

 

Question 344:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House

 

Chairperson, on 25 July 2022 the official extradition request, along with the Arabic translation thereof, for the extradition of Mr Atul Kumar Gupta and Rajesh Kumar Gupta, well known as the Gupta brothers, were handed over to the central authority in the United Arab Emirates, the UAE. At this stage, the extradition proceedings are still ongoing in the UAE and therefore sub judice. The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is engaging with the authorities in the UAE on an ongoing basis. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

 

 

 

Mr X NQOLA: House Chair, my follow-up question would be: Does the NPA have a plan and the requisite capacity to have these kind of matters successfully prosecuted? These kind of matters include that one of Bushiri from Malawi. So, is there sufficient capacity within the Prosecuting Authority to successfully complete and finalise these matters? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House

 

Chair, indeed the central authority which is the Department of Justice has the capacity through co-operation with the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, DIRCO, to follow-up on the matters with our counterparts in jurisdictions where the extradition requests have been made including the UAE. We also have ongoing engagements with regards to the matter of Mr Chipiliro Gama, well-known as prophet Bushiri. We continue to engage with authorities in Malawi to follow-up on the matter. Hon members would know that the matter is proceeding very well in Malawi, and we have now succeeded with one case in the magistrate court there which will now say that our witnesses no longer have to go to Malawi to deal with the matter, they can deal with the dispossession here in South Africa. So, that shows the level of commitment that the central authority has put onto the matter and we continue to keep it on tabs. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

 

 

 

Adv G BREYTENBACH: House Chair, to the Minister, on Monday 25 July this year you and the National Director of Public Prosecuting Authority held a joint press briefing to confirm the submission of the formal extradition application to the central authority of the UAE. Do you not think that the joint public briefing with the head of the NPA was unwise and further blurs the line between the executive and the hopefully independent prosecuting authority, especially in the light of the concerted effort to destroy that independence by the ANC, also your continued assertion that South Africa needs an independent prosecuting authority?

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: No, I do

 

not think so. That will also mean that I can’t be in the same room with or talk to the NDPP or any prosecutor or judge.

Independence does not mean that. Independence means that I cannot interfere with the prosecutorial decision of the NPA, and we have always committed ourselves that we will never interfere with that prosecutorial decision.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Ukufaka isandla semfene.

 

 

 

 

 

English:

 

It will never happen, and that is what it means. But to have a joint press briefing on this kind of a matter which is related to extradition. Extradition has a double dimension; a criminal side and a diplomatic side which is handled by the central authority which is the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. So, it is not a matter handled only by the NPA, it has a relay effect. After the NPA has dealt with the charges and the indictment, it then hands it over to the central authority. It therefore makes sense for us to take the nation into account and confidence on where the matter is. In fact, we were being criticised even before that by the country that why are we not accounting to society and taking society into confidence on where the matter is. If we did not do that we will be sitting here being told by hon Breytenbach that we are incompetent, we are not doing our job and we are not sending the request. We have continued to account even to hon Breytenbach when she sends a private letter, not through this process of Parliament, we respond and account and say we are continuing and we are committed to the process. So, we will continue to work with the NPA as long as we are not interfering with the prosecutorial responsibility

 

 

 

of the National Prosecuting Authority. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Ms L F TITO: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, have you received confirmation if the Gupta brothers were ever arrested in the UAE? If so, can you confirm if today they are still in detention, and if their detention is in relation to the crimes that they have allegedly committed here in South Africa? If this is so, then why is it taking so long for them to be repatriated back to South Africa so that they must come and answer for their crimes that they have committed here in South Africa? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House

 

Chairperson, indeed we have received a nonverbal which is a formal confirmation by the UAE government and authorities that the two Gupta brothers are in their cells. They have also informed us that they have attempted, on several occasions, to apply for bail and their bail was denied. So, there is confirmation that they are indeed there. Our authorities here in this country also went to the UAE to deliver the request personally and again it was confirmed that indeed they are arrested in the UAE because those authorities said that when

 

 

 

they involved law enforcement and the National Prosecuting Authority. I can confirm, hon House Chairperson, that it is not taking time but still within the period of the treaty – within the treaty’s agreement that we needed to submit within

60 days, which we did, and they have to assess it within this period. We do believe that the ongoing engagements will enable us to find a solution at the end in terms of the extradition process. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.

 

 

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, to the Minister, arising from your response, the ACDP appreciates that you and the NPA are now waiting for the process to unfold in the Dubai courts, but clearly it is in their hands. So, hon Minister, I am sure you will agree with the ACDP that the process will also be subject to various appeals that are beyond the control of the South African NPA and therefore that it could take a number of months or even years before their judicial process unfolds. In that regard we have to wait upon that. Secondly, is the Minister able to comment at all about the NPA indicating that they will apply for extradition of Mr Salim Essa, I know it is a separate question but I will leave it to your discretion if you would like to respond to that. Thank you, sir.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, hon

 

Swart is correct. Extradition by its nature can be a protracted legal process. It is the nature of extradition processes in any jurisdiction in the world. It can be a protracted legal process but we have confidence in the process because we have sent our authorities to engage from time to time with the authorities in the UAE. They have been following up on the matter and we are keeping tabs on the processes happening in the courts and we do believe that the processes will unfold. We are giving them their due time and processes and we are hopeful that they will be expeditiously dealt with because, unlike in other many jurisdictions in the world, in the UAE the process is almost an administrative process which could also help to fast track the process.

 

 

With regard to the request, they said that it is coming to the central authority which is the Department of Justice with regards to Mr Salim Essa. Indeed we will treat it like any other process that will come through and we will ensure that it complies with the law and follows the due processes by sending it to the relevant central authority in whatever country that they will want to us to send it to. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

Question 348:

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Chair. While we acknowledge that the recommendations by the Expert Panel into the July 2021 civil unrest should jointly be implemented by the justice crime prevention security cluster, but there are five recommendations that should be implemented by the State Security Agency, SSA. On the national early warning capability, the national intelligence co-ordinating committee in its early warning system continue to provide early warnings in order to avoid the recurrences of the incidence of July and other potential upheavals. Into the future, in various government structures, government is advised to heed to the warnings and calls for the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, to attend to national security threats as contained in the national intelligence estimates and other intelligence products.

 

 

Further, the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, which is an operational subcommittee of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster, meet on regular basis. The State Security Agency, SSA, is represented and it provides forewarnings.

 

 

 

 

 

On the capacity of the State Security Agency, in particular key amongst the capacity constraints was the high number of vacancies at senior management levels. We are ongoing axing acting appointments that failed to provide the necessary stability. Notable strides have been made during the financial year to address the capacity issues that have historically plugged the agency. The State Security Agency, SSA, has permanently filled one remaining deputy level post, which means all posts at this level are now permanently filled. We have also filled 21 general manager positions and the remaining vacancy posts at this levels are all at the recruitment phase and should be filled by the end of the second quarter. Thirty-three manager positions have also been permanently filled, and the 13 remaining are at various stages in the recruitment process. The filling of vacancies at the senior management level has assisted in bringing stability in the agency. The appointment of the director-general towards the end of the financial year brought the much-needed stability as the department did not had a permanent director- general, DG, since 2018.

 

 

 

On the matters of organisation of the intelligence service, the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill was finalised and consultations on the Bill are taking place. One of the objectives of the Bill is to establish fit for purpose domestic and foreign planed structures. On the furnishing of the National Security Council, the National Security Council, NSC, which was re-established by Proclamation No 13 of 2020, meet after every two months. The National Security Council also meet on regular basis when there are urgent national security matters requiring attention. The National Security Council is supported by the SA National Security Secretariat, a structure comprising directors-general. It meets on monthly basis.

 

 

Lastly, the national security policy and strategy documents were drafted and the documents were presented to all government structures as well as the SA National Security Secretariat. The documents are due for co-presentation at the National Security Council on 27 September 2022. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, can the Ministers stop speaking as if

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

... bazoshela izintombi.

 

 

English:

 

We don’t hear them. They must speak like they are addressing us. So ...

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

... ngathi uyashela uNgqongqoshe uMondli, uyamamatheka ...

 

 

English:

 

... like, “my name is Mondli Gungubele”. No!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, hon Mkhaliphi.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Kodwa vele siyakuthanda nje! [Uhleko.] Siyakuythanda vele.

 

 

English:

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Vele siyakuthanda!

 

 

English:

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.

 

 

English:

 

An HON MEMBER: Unparliamentary language!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members. Hon Mkhalipi was merely emphasising the fact that she can hear what the Minister is saying.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: But she must not use unparliamentary language.

 

 

Ms G K TSEKE: Thank you very much, House Chair. I will take the follow-up question on behalf of hon Dikgale. Minister, there are concerns in the country about the capacity of the intelligence community to provide intelligence to law enforcement agencies to mitigate against acts of criminality.

 

 

 

How will the Minister ensure that the trust and confidence of the people in the intelligence is restored through the implementation of the recommendations of the Report of the Expert Panel? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I be protected against the

 

...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, you are protected, hon Minister.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Ngeke usakhuluma engathi wenza lokho.

 

 

English:

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon member, there is a lot of work that has been done in as a far as an attempt to implement the Report of the High Panel Expert’s recommendations. As we have already said, a lot of interventions in as far as irregularities have been identified and they have led to the Lekoa forensic being commissioned.

Out of the 26 cases committed I think six have already been forwarded for identification, ID. There is quite a significant

 

 

 

number of other people whose names are at the ID. As I have already said, the top management section has been completed in terms of vacancies and stability seems to be unfolding in the institution.

 

 

On that basis I think community-based confidence on what we deliver is being anticipated and secured. Thank you, hon Chair.

 

 

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Minister, on the whole, down from the State Security Agency to the crime intelligence that stands like headless chicken, the whole nation knew there was something about to happen. However, the intelligence services said that they knew it was going to happen, and that they say they told the police. In other way they say the police were totally unprepared. They didn’t eve answer their phones when called by desperate citizens, and they were nowhere. So, what will you do personally as a new broom ... what measures are you going to put in place to ensure that this will never happen again? We can’t rely on social media posts which made the whole country knew what’s going to happen. That’s what those multibillions rand budget

 

 

 

is for - to prevent exactly what happened ... [Interjections.]

 

... riding on your shoulders. Give us a plan.

 

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon member. Maybe it is always important to restate the fact that at all material times products that come out of our institutions are referred to relevant institutions. In a number of instances where I believe there were no such problems, it had been demonstrated that progresses were referred to. Having said all that my confidence lies in the fact that we all agree in the security cluster. There is seamlessness within all of us. Once tightened, once operational, we will do better.

 

 

I can inform the member that we are from a workshop convened by the two chairs of the security cluster where this seamlessness, which is key in ensuring that we are complementary in our work, does work. In implementing programmes that come from that workshop we look forward to even improve in as far as forewarnings is concerned.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, Chair. I will take the question of hon Ndlozi.

 

 

 

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Kukhulunywa kanjena, Ngqongqoshe.

 

 

English:

 

Over 300 African people were killed during the July 2021 civil unrest in KwaZulu-Natal in what were mainly racial motivated instances. The then Minister responsible for intelligence indicated that the SSA had provided a briefing to the SA Police Service, SAPS, about the civil unrest, while the SAPS denied ever receiving this briefing. Have you been able to determine whether SAPS got any briefing from the SSA before the civil unrest? Have you been able to identify all the people who killed poor black people during the period? What are the future prospects for unrests on that nature in KwaZuliu-Natal should all those people be arrested again?

Thank you, Minister. I don’t want to talk about what you have said, Ndosi. I hope you are going to give a satisfactory response, Minister.

 

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: While one would repeat the fact that, in terms of our records products were referred to the relevant institutions. With the specific matter on hand,

 

 

 

it is a matter that I have not checked. But all I can tell you is that going forward we are ensuring that the quality of the forewarning systems works. Already I am sure you will recall the view that there are a number of people who were behind the July unrests. A significant number of them were arrested.

 

 

Lastly, maybe the point must be made to educate the broader society with regard to the detrimental effects that come out of those uprisings. If people are educated and understand the effects, we hope that they would be better warned. It should not be easily provoked. Thanks.

 

 

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Yes, it is very unfortunate that as many as 300 people lost their lives during the unrest. And I do not believe that all those killed or all those that lost their lives were racially motivated. It is alleged that possibly 30, which is 10% of those that lost their lives could be racially motivated. This is something that the country should not tolerate. We hope that the investigation will continue.

 

 

Hon Minister, my question to you is that, the Report of the Expert Panel recommended that government take a firm decision

 

 

 

about whether the State Security Agency should be split into two. Has there been any progress in this regard? Is there any thinking by government? If not what process will be followed to give effect to this recommendation that the State Security Agency be split into two? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Singh. There is a process with regard to that situation. The General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill is in process and some consultations have taken place. We are moving towards the justice crime prevention security, JCPS, cluster briefing.

Hoping from there we will proceed to Cabinet. We hope around November it will be tabled in Parliament just to take care of that recommendation which is actually the crux of the institutional turnaround which undermines the institution in a big way. Thank you, hon Singh.

 

 

Question 312:

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, I am very disappointed that Question 305 was withdrawn but it is okay. The answer is: No! Section 205(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996 stipulates that the SA Police Service is

 

 

 

structured to function in the national, provincial and local spheres of government, then comes districts and stations.

 

 

In terms of section 272 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996, the national commissioner is responsible for exercising control over the managing of the SA Police Service, in accordance with the National Policing Policy and direction of the relevant member of the Cabinet.

 

 

On number two: No, there is no need identified at the present moment for the alternative approach to the structuring of the SA Police Service. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon Singh!

 

 

Mr N SINGH: Sorry, I didn’t want to disturb. May I just come in the point of explanation to what the Minister said about the withdrawal of the question by the IFP. The reason for the withdrawal, hon Chairperson and hon Minister, is that the question that was tabled in a written form was not the question that was put by the IFP. So, if the Minister can

 

 

 

please accept that, we will put a written question to the Minister. Thank you.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Singh, the question was withdrawn and we have past that.

 

 

Mr N SINGH: Yes, Chairperson! Yes!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I hope you understand that. We are now going to Question 312, which has been asked by the hon Whitfield? Have you responded, hon Minister? [Interjections.] So, we are going to the supplementary question? The hon Whitfield!

 

 

Mr A G WHITFIELD: House Chairperson, the Minister has repeatedly stated that policing powers cannot be decentralised, saying that this would require a constitutional amendment, but he ignores the fact that section 99 of the Constitution empowers the Minister to divide policing powers to other spheres of government.

 

 

The Minister has repeatedly stated that giving more policing powers to capable provincial and local government cannot help

 

 

 

to fight crime and improve safety, but he ignores the fact that his own crime statistics prove that it is working.

 

 

The Minister ignores the evidence that the Western Cape Government’s Law Enforcement Advancement Plan, Leap, has led to declining murders by 42% in Mitchell’s Plain, that Nyanga is no longer the murder capital of South Africa, and that the City of Cape Town’s recent deployment of 100 law enforcement officers in the Cape Town CBD has reduced the theft of motor vehicles and robbery by more than 50% in just one week.

 

 

What the Minister cannot ignore is that just yesterday, President Ramaphosa spoke glowingly of the crime-fighting efforts by the City of Cape Town, saying that he is impressed and that they should be applauded. The President went further to say that these successes should be investigated and that we should all learn from this experience.

 

 

Now that the Minister knows that the Constitution does give him powers to decentralise policing and giving the overwhelming evidence of the success of the Leap programme, together with President’s report for efforts in the city of

 

 

 

Cape Town: Will the Minister finally agree to investigate how he can improve safety by centralising policing?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, this is the man I did not like, but he came with a theory that, “When untruth is repeated time and again, people end up believing it.” That was Joseph Goebbels who said it through Hitler or Hitler through Goebbels. There are things that are repeated time and again to mislead South Africans here.

 

 

This Constitution is very clear that when it speaks of the police, in the Constitution that he talks about, section 205 talks about the national police service, and section 205(3) talks about to protect the structure in the inhabitants of the Republic, not inhabitants of the republic of the Western Cape

– in the Republic!

 

 

This is a Constitution. It says that the member of the Cabinet must be responsible for policing and must determine national policing. That is the Constitution; and that is section 206(1)! Section 206(2) talks about National Policing Policy working with provinces, of which this has been done. This

 

 

 

Minister, a Cabinet member, has met the Premier of this province and the mayor of this city.

 

 

This Constitution says that national legislation must provide a framework for the establishment powers, function and the control of the municipal police services. This is where Western Cape becomes constitutional delinquents, because all these metros – mainly differ – and I am starting from section

206 going forth ... [Interjections.]

 

 

The delinquency of this province comes from not doing what the Constitution says must be done. It says ... [Time expired.]

 

 

Mr A M SEABI: House Chair, Minister, you have already referred to section 206 of the Constitution, which provides that: A member of the Cabinet must be responsible for policing and must determine National Policing Policy, after consulting the provincial governments, taking into account the policing needs and priorities of the province as determined by the provincial executive.

 

 

This, therefore, means that there are no limitations in the Constitution on the co-ordination and direction for the

 

 

 

functioning of the police, including in the provinces. Hence, there is no need for police to commission a study on this matter.

 

 

Minister, in your assessment: What has been the challenges encountered in ensuring a seamless co-ordination and working relationship on the political leadership of the police, between national and provincial spheres of government?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I want to repeat the point that the delinquency of this province when it comes to Constitution text, all metros are supposed to have metros working under the direction of the national commissioner.

However, what has happened in this province is that they have created a parallel structure to the constitutional structure, called Leap, and that structure does not report to the national commissioner, is not overseen by the Police Secretariat, is not overseen by the Ipid.

 

 

When they shoot people, you don’t know what next to do. That was the problem when the member of the Leap shot the member of the SA Police Service here. We didn’t know what to do. So, they are delinquent in a way that they know what the

 

 

 

Constitution must tell them what to do whilst they are not doing that, and they call it a crisis.

 

 

When you read the same Constitution, it says you must create the structure that co-ordinates between the Minister and all other MECs – it is called Minmec. That structure meets every three months, including the MEC of this province. If they have problems, they should be addressing their letters there. And please, if they can, from now on, they must start to follow the Constitution of the land. They should not defy the Constitution and demand the Minister to follow them in defying the Constitution. Thank you.

 

 

Mr H A SHEMBENI: Hon Chair, Minister, the most crime-ridden areas in the Western Cape – areas where black people live, such as Nyanga, Delft, Emfuleni, Khayelitsha – are places that experience the most murders and the most rapes. These are same areas that are the most neglected in terms of service delivery, where sewerage runs freely on the streets because of the DA that does not give a damn about black people.

 

 

 

On what basis, therefore, would you ever consider giving the DA decentralised powers to further neglect the lives of black people in the townships?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, under no circumstances will I ever consider doing that. This is a province whose leader did not go oversight when six people were shot in Khayelitsha. Instead, he took a flight to Ukraine. He did not see fit to go to Khayelitsha to mourn and relay condolences to the relatives of six people who were killed, but he flew all the way to Ukraine.

 

 

Do you really expect that, if you say you can save those people, you can be responsible for the black lives? No, it cannot be! As we speak now, as I said, Goebbels could be good. You telling us that there is crime in Nyanga is because to them Ukraine is closer than Nyanga. Nyanga is much further than understanding Ukraine.

 

 

As such, regarding the crime increase in the city centre: After those stats came up, hundred new trained law enforcement officials were unleashed in the city. They have never been unleashed in Nyanga, and they have never been unleashed in

 

 

 

Delft - with all the stats that have come from there. With those facts, under those circumstances, they say we should allow the black people in the Western Cape to be given over to the people that don’t care at all about them. Thanks.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. The last supplementary question will be asked by hon Majozi. Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Hon Majozi!

 

 

Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, considering that residents in crime-stricken communities have an in-depth understanding of house crime manifest in their specific areas: What measures are put in place to reinforce the involvement of local communities in crime prevention programmes as an alternative strategy for fighting and preventing crime?

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the structures from communities to fight crime are in the Constitution and legislation - the Community Policing Forums, CPFs - and that the police will work with these structures. It is only in the Western Cape where these structures are ignored, creating parallel structures.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong creating neighbourhood watch and other structures, but the problem is when you begin to put your resources on the structures that are not the constitutional at the expense of the structures that are in the Constitution. It is because you ignore and you are a constitutional delinquent! You don’t do the things that the Constitution instructs you to do!

 

 

However, we will continue, we will labour forward, we will solder forward to work with the communities so that police and communities work together. Indeed, it has been beyond any doubt to where communities work together with the police, crime is reduced. Police will respond quicker. Police are able to arrest those people. So, we will continue to do that.

 

 

It will be difficult then to work with the organisation that even the women folk, as Kopane has said when she left the DA, that, “Women are endangered species, especially black women are endangered species in the DA.” It is not me saying it; Kopane said so!

 

 

Welcome to the Chief Whip of the Opposition. We are watching you and how long you will be there. We are watching. We are

 

 

 

very closely watching! We have been watching Lindiwe. We have been watching Kopane ... [Interjections.]

 

 

Mr I S SEITLHOLO: You must watch crime! You must watch crime!

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: We have been watching Mbali. We have been watching everybody! We are watching you and we wish you luck. [Time expired.] Thank you very much.

 

 

Question 354:

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: The information ... Chairperson, because specific issues were asked, we have requested that the information on the ... must be extracted from the investigation case dockets management ... [Inaudible.] ... and then subjected to ...

 

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: May I rise on a point of order? House Chairperson?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Meshoe, what is your point of order?

 

 

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: Sir, we can’t hear from the platform. Could the Minister please raise his voice.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Meshoe. Okay, hon Minister, would you please raise your voice for the hon Meshoe to hear.

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, the information that is required is not readily available, as information must be extracted from the Investigation Case Docket Management System, ICDMS, and then subjected to the necessary process to verify the information. A request has been made hereby to verify the information. A request has been hereby made to the extension of seven working days in order for the SA Police Service to provide accurate and verifiable information.

Information referred to in Question 1 above is required in order to respond to these questions. So, the request is that we request the extended time so that we give the correct and accurate information. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. The first supplementary question will be asked by the hon Meshoe.

 

 

 

 

 

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, House Chairperson and Minister. While I understand what you have said, we know that from the reports that every five hours in South Africa, a panic stricken relative or guardian reports a missing child. From October to December 2021, 2 605 kidnapping cases were opened at police stations. Late last year, the US department said that South Africa is a human trafficking hub and kidnappings have more than doubled in our country since 2010.

 

 

According to the Institute for Security Studies, we have 10 kidnappings per 100 000 people, which is one of the highest rate in the world. Hon Minister, in spite of the promise you made to prioritise the fight against kidnapping, in 2018 the numbers of kidnappings continued to rise. These days, commuters and women in particular, are being kidnapped when they board what they think is a legitimate taxi, when in reality it is a vehicle or quantum that is driven by criminals. What different approach, Minister, has the SA Police taken to deal with kidnappings as an indication that these serious crime has been prioritised as promised in 2018? I thank you.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon House Chair and hon Mfundisi [Reverend] Meshoe. Indeed, crime has been prioritised. The fact that there is a special unit led at the level of the major-general from the Crime Intelligence in the country tells that the SAPS has prioritised the case. While there are these victims and these problems, unfortunately the successes that are there don’t find a place in the media space as the original crime would have. One of the major crime that found a big space was a woman who was kidnapped from Durban for many days and she was found in Mpumalanga tied with a chain did not make much in terms of being put on platform and be understood. One of the highly publicised was Mr Rajah, who was found in Khayelitsha after 111 days. He was found when the family was on the way to pay the ransom of R25 million in Dubai. They did not pay that because of the SA Police. Only two weeks ago, a six-year old was kidnapped and was found the next day. A person that kidnapped the child was arrested in Gauteng in a car driving there. So, there are successes because this unit is doing the work and we can still do much better but it is not true that nothing is being done and it is not true that there no successes around this. We are improving and we are putting extra provincial teams that will be working

 

 

 

with Crime Intelligence to respond to these matters. Thank you very much.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon Moss.

 

 

Ms L N MOSS: Thank you very much, House Chair and thank you very much Minister. I must say that the SA Police did a good work. The Institute for Security Studies - the ISS, in an article published in February 2022 titled, “Who gets kidnapped in South Africa” made observations that given the wide-ranging motives associated with kidnappings, tackling crime requires a multi-stakeholder approach. In light of this observation, what is the strategy that the police have developed or will develop to tackle of kidnapping? Thank you very much.

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don’t know whether it is only me who didn’t hear ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Moss, could you repeat that for the Minister?

 

 

 

Ms L N MOSS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. The Institute for Security Studies - the ISS, in an article published in February 2022 titled, “Who gets kidnapped in South Africa” made observations that given the wide-ranging motives associated with kidnappings, tackling crime requires a multi-stakeholder approach. In light of this observation, what is the strategy that the police have developed or will develop to tackle of kidnapping? Thank you very much.

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair. It will be similar that we have created a special unit to deal with those matters led by the major-general from Crime Intelligence – I am not going to mention the name. Beyond that, these crimes are national and international crimes that is why provincial police of the Western cape won’t help them on that. The fact that someone is kidnapped in Hanover Park and the next morning the kidnapper is arrested in Gauteng – they won’t be able to deal with those international cases, that is why they should keep police national and international. We are linking with other bodies like Interpol. We work closely with Interpol and with other agencies around the world to deal with these cases because it is a cross-border crime and we understand that we need to work with other agencies, both international and

 

 

 

national – and that is working. But as I have qualified by saying that there is a good work that is done by agencies but we can still improve in that matter. Thank you very much. I thank you, House Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thanlk you, hon Minister. The third supplementary question will be asked by Terblanche.

 

 

Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Our Minister requested additional time because the information according to him is not readily available. Now I am going to ask him the follow-up question about information that he knows very well, that is crime statistics – he is dealing with that every quarter. My question is: “How many people got arrested for kidnapping over the same period and how many got convicted?” Is there a downward trend, Mr Minister? You have that information.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. The last supplementary question will be asked by the Majozi. Oh sorry, you can respond, hon Minister.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, it is exactly that number that was asked by the person who asked the original question because that information per se must be extracted from the system. Yes, we would know the individuals but in terms of specifics that are coming from the member who made a follow-up question, it falls within the ambit of the extended request.

Thanks, Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Minister. The last supplementary question will be asked by the Majozi.

 

 

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House chairperson. Hon Minister, considering the upsurge of the kidnappings of wealthy business owners from 2016 until present, what measures have been put in place to address extortionist kidnappings from then until now. Has correlation been established between organised crime syndicates and the occurrence of extortionist kidnappings. If so, which indicators have been identified? And how has this been addressed, if not, please provide an explanation as to how there is no correlation. Thank you.

 

 

 

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair. As the hon Majozi mentioned that the kidnappings of rich business people are not only those people that are kidnapped and it is not only those people that extortion is demanded from. In this province, the Cabinet member who happen to be the Minister of Police, has met again with the premier and the gentleman called J P Smith, where we have created a special team to deal with this thing of extortion at the lower level. What happens is that these gangs go to houses and if there is a helper in that particular house they will ask the helper how much she is being paid. For example, if the helper gets paid R500,00 they demand 10% of the helper’s wage.

 

 

One of the person that has been running this scam is the gentleman who has just been arrested and charged with 31 charges, including 19 dead bodies here in Cape Town, who has appeared in court twice. Unfortunately, the community has marched and demanded that he should be released by Cele because he is helping them. That guy has 19 dead bodies. So, we are dealing with that at that level. But at the high level of the rich people, that answer has been provided that we have created a special team. We are working at both level – at the

 

 

 

higher and grassroots level of extortions and kidnappings. Thank you very much.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon Minister. On that note hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed on Hansard. Now we will ask the secretary to read the First Order of the day.

 

 

Questions concluded.

 

 

 

 

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF PROTOCOL AMENDING THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF KUWAIT FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION, 1996

 

 

Ms P N ABRAHAM: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. The amendments of the schedule of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Fica, are aimed at improving South Africa’s legislative and regulatory framework of combating money

 

 

 

laundering, terrorism financing and weapons proliferation. Many of the amendments to the schedule are technically as they’re aimed at aligning our loss. For instance, Schedule 1 of Financial Intelligence Centre Act still refers to law societies whereas we now have legal practice councils following the passing of the Legal Practice Act by Parliament a few years ago. In Schedule 2 of Financial Intelligence Centre Act, there are still references to the Financial Services Board, FSB, which was replaced by the Financial Sector Conduct Authority and Prudential Authority.

 

 

Other amendments are meant to expand the operation of Financial Intelligence Centre Act to institutions or persons that were not previously covered, but for some risk of money laundering. We will know the severity of these risks once proper risk assessments are conducted in these sectors. The powers to amend the schedules are delegated to the Minister of Finance in terms of section 73, 75 and 76 of Financial Intelligence Centre Act. With Parliament approving such amendments, however, instead of merely approving such when Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, received a briefing on June 15 before we went to recess, the committee decided that we have to ensure that some public participation

 

 

 

and involvement takes place. This was simply because new persons and entities will now be covered. The new entities to be covered include crypto-asset dealers, accountants, company service providers and trans-service providers which are all at risk of being used to launder money.

 

 

There has been some media coverage of how Parliament has delayed approving the amendment of these schedules. This was in the light of South Africa facing a possible grey listing by the Financial Action Task Force, the International Standard Setting Body against money laundering based in Paris. Such media coverage was unfortunate as delays in approving the amendments were not part of the parliamentary proceedings. The amendments were only tabled in Parliament in May 2022, whereas the Minister of Finance started consulting on these in 2017.

The main issue raised in the public hearings hosted by the committee was that antimoney laundering regulations are increasing the cost of compliance for businesses and regulated persons. This, therefore, affects consumers as regulated institutions have got a luxury to pass on such costs to their customers. Now, as the committee we believe that any regulatory intervention should be mindful of cost implications. In this regard, risk based approach is necessary

 

 

 

when implementing the regulations on businesses which... [Inaudible.] ... a low risk of money laundering and terrorist financing.

 

 

The Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC, should be circumspect and guide these businesses and supervisory ... [Inaudible.]

... accordingly ... [Inaudible.] ... noncompliance with exorbitant sanctions results in regulated institutions treating customers unfairly for fear of being sanctioned. Therefore, this needs to be balanced. Lastly, as the committee we believe that the Minister should ensure that the plans are in motion to prevent South Africa ... [Inaudible.] ... by the Financial Action Task Force as that would have dire implications for the economy to make it difficult for South Africa to transact and trade with other countries. We believe that we’ll avoid this, as today as a committee we started processing the Financial Laws Amendment Bill which focuses on antimoney laundering and counter-terrorism financing.

 

 

The Financial Intelligence Centre Act regulations should enable the country to deal with corruption, illicit financial flows and tax evasion by big businesses who shift our money offshore and terrorist financing. Therefore, we should move

 

 

 

into the area of prosecutions and asset forfeiture just complying with the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, standards is not enough, we need results. We support the approval of these amendments by the National Assembly. I thank you, House Chair.

 

 

Declarations of vote:

 

Mr J N DE VILLIERS: Thank you, House Chair. I’m little bit confused because this is all about the protocol agreement between South Africa and the state of Kuwait. Therefore, I’m not sure what the Financial Intelligence Centre Act amendments have to do with this specifically. Nonetheless, the order deals of the important foreign tax treaty loophole that was used by Swedish and Dutch authorities ... [Inaudible] ... 20 with Kuwait. South Africa levies and dividend withholding tax on dividends paid to nonresidents means that any international companies or business that has invested in South Africa and must receive the portion of profits from local investment needs to pay tax on those profits, thereafter the profit can be moved back overseas to the home of a foreign investor. In short, when the foreign investors in South Africa who are invested in profit-making companies, those profits cannot be

 

 

 

moved back overseas to their homes without it first being taxed in South Africa, that’s the objective over it.

 

 

Therefore, the rated which dividends to foreign shareholders is taxed locally is mostly subject to a specific agreement that we as South Africa has with the foreign state or the home of that foreign investor. This agreement is referred to as a double taxation agreement and is basically sets down tax rules for profits being made by foreign investors and local businesses. So ... [Inaudible.] ... some of these double taxation agreements will, however, concluded with a nil-rate, meaning that there were some foreign investors that could just take dividends overseas and not pay any taxes in South Africa. This was obviously not an ideal situation leading to a loss for our fiscus. Such have, however, made work of meaning all of these nil-agreements of which the last one is with the one with the state of Kuwait.

 

 

In a bizarre case of unintended consequences, this, however, led to Dutch and Swedish investors also qualifying for a nil- tax-rate because of what they call a most favoured nation clause, which basely meant the Dutch and Swedish foreign investors would always guarantee to pay the best tax rates

 

 

 

South Africa has agreed with any other nation which until today has been the nil-rate with Kuwait. Therefore, the protocol before us today will end the nil-rate of taxation with the state of Kuwait and coming to effect when both South Africa and Kuwait notify each other of the completion of this protocol process and the protocol will enter into force on the date of the lateral ... [Inaudible.] ... notifications.

 

 

What is, however, a little unclear is a clause of the agreement which creates potential interpretation and misunderstanding that could mean that the protocol becomes retrospectively applicable up-to-date when South Africa started implementing dividends involving tax. The DA will urge National Treasury to be very clear of its intention of this protocol to try and stop the clawback of historical dividends paid out in the past under the previous nil-rate as this will certainly lead to significant taxation implications for some foreign investors and not certainly leads to legal battles.

The importance of applying fair tax practices on foreign investors should always be balanced by the reality that we also want to encourage foreign investment into South Africa in order to stimulate the economic growth, create more jobs and fighting equality. Nowhere is this truer than the local small

 

 

 

business and start-up environment where there are high performance start-ups with massive opportunity for job creation and economic growth.

 

 

The DA supports policy and legislation to seek to help South African start-up companies, attract foreign investment and operate more internationally. Therefore, we call on National Treasury and the SA Reserve Bank to implement policy changes that make South African start-up companies more attractive to international investors. The protocol before us today is, however, sensible and fair, and the DA supports the protocol and the important closing of this last foreign tax treaty loophole. We urge National Treasury to finish the legislative process and notify the Republic of Kuwait as soon as possible. I thank you.

 

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chair, yes ...

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

... ngicumile, Ngqongqoshe. Ngikhuluma ngingumholi.

 

 

English:

 

 

 

The agreement between South Africa and various countries to address the challenges of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with the respect to taxes on income, while they have good intentions do not address the issue of illicit financial flows. The Economic Freedom Fighters, EFF, since 2014 when we arrived here, have made concrete proposals on practical and implementable steps to deal with illicit financial flows, including transfer, mispricing and base erosion. We had proposed an Act of Parliament to make all forms of tax exploitative schemes, illegal, including what is called tax avoidance, of which we are always reminded that it is legal. We have proposed a stronger penalty, regime for companies involved in illicit financial flows. We must expropriate some of these companies, House Chair, without compensation because effectively, they are stealing money that we must be using to fund education, health and social grants. We are happy that after we proposed a cross agency task team that will bring together the work of the SA Revenue Service, the Sars, the SA Reserve Bank, SARB, Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC, the Hawks and Intelligence. There’s some signs of intra-agency co-ordination between all these institutions.

What we need to see are the results. We need to see cases from Sars and FIC in court. The EFF is going to finalise the

 

 

 

general Anti-Tax Avoidance Bill that seeks to properly bring together all legislations and we will also give proper guidance to some of these agreement that are signed, but do not yield results. Thank you, House Chair.

 

 

 

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. The report we are considering today seeks to avoid double taxation in prevention of ...[Inaudible.] ... equal invasion with respect to taxes and income. So, as the IFP, we support the ratification of this protocol which amends the agreement between South Africa and Kuwait. The ratification of this protocol, hon Chair, will ensure that there is no further fiscal impact. We understand that the Minister of Finance has already signed the protocol in December 2019 and the delays in finalising the signature from the Embassy of Kuwait.

Therefore, it’s critical that this protocol comes into operation as soon as possible due to the impact of MFN clause in South African-Netherlands tax treaty that is indirectly triggered by the South African-Kuwait treaty. The IFP, therefore, in considering the urgency of the matter supports the standing committee report that the request for Parliament to ratify amendment, amending rather the agreement between

 

 

 

South Africa and Kuwait be approved. We support the report. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Ms H DENNER: No declaration, Chairperson.

 

 

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, we support the report, but we won’t be making the declaration. Thank you.

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson, the National Freedom Party notes and supports the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the agreement between the South African government and the state of Kuwait for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion. Let us not forget, House Chairperson, that tax evasion and money laundering were rife during the days of apartheid and two countries’ specifically that was Israel and Switzerland were the countries that were used for money laundering between the Republic of South Africa and those countries in taking our wealth out of the country. The study found that, hon Chairperson, that all profit shifting is done by the largest firms in South Africa. The top 10% of the multinational firms were the affiliates in the lower tax jurisdiction are responsible for 98% of profit shifting.

 

 

 

 

 

I remember about two or three years ago, I spoke to the then Deputy Minister of Finance, and there was a report from an accountant in South Africa, who could tell you specifically how a company was laundering money and shifting the money, the profits of South Africa to offshore companies - but not much was done about that. The biggest multinationals shift 78% of the profits on average to offshore tax havens. The estimated loss for South Africa is valued at R7 billion per year, or nearly 4% of the total corporate tax received. The smallest 50% of multinational firms in South Africa do not engage in profit shifting at all. Over and above, the tax treaties with other international countries, Sars need to investigate the claims made by the study. We cannot get into agreements for the sake of it. The tax agreements that South Africa concludes with other nations must have a direct impact in our collection revenue. The NFP supports the report. Thank you.

 

 

Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, hon House Chair, the AIC supports the report with no declaration. I thank you.

 

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you, hon House Chair, the Al Jama Ah supports the treaty with Kuwait and we support the report. We need to further strengthen ties with Kuwait because since 1960, Kuwait has funded education in South Africa and continues to support the ideals of the liberation movement.

Kuwait is one of the few middle-east countries that supports the end of occupation in Palestine and supports the vision and the call by President Nelson Mandela that South Africa will not be free until Palestine is free. So, any strengthening of the relationship with Kuwait is welcome. We support the report.

 

 

Ms Z NKOMO: Thank you, House Chairperson, the support of the ANC for an amendment to the protocol is informed by our policy orientation towards base erosion and illegal profit shifting. It would be important that we use this moment to reflect on how far we have come on this matter. In 2015, the ANC and finance committee initiated the process on a broader transformation of the financial sector, recognising that the most dominant economic sector in the economy was, according to financial sector authorities embedded with corrupt practices and manipulation of the regulatory environment. That process led to the finance committee into examining the broader

 

 

 

illegal form of profit shifting, weakening our tax and revenue base and denying necessary resources to fully finance the economic policies of the governing party.

 

 

We also examine what this meant in terms of base erosion for the state and how this impacted on building a development state, eating away resource through malpractices and tax evasion. Over a four period between 2015 and 2019, we have been able through the work of Parliament to not only position Parliament as a key intervention force in the transformation of the financial sector, but we had been able to pass legislation, to tighten up all loopholes that have exploited within the financial sector.

 

 

The pace of transformation of the financial sector has been and continues to be pathetically slow, even processes by Nedlec have failed to result in the landmark financial sector summit we were striving for. In the Sixth Parliament, we have committed in the same direction this time focusing more on tightening the legislative and regulatory environment and ensuring that collusion, financial malfeasance and other corrupt practices are dealt with through legislation and specialised crime court.

 

 

 

 

 

Today’s protocol of amendment of the existing agreement between the Republic and the state of Kuwait has to be seen in the broader context. We are encouraged by the greater determination of both the National Treasury, tax policy unit and the Sars, to deal with network of collusion within the financial sector and its leakage outside the country. We are clear, as the ANC, that there are particular parts of the world that attract individual and companies who see the prospects of circumventing taxation obligation, thus denying the state legitimate revenue. So while this amendment is addressing an existing tax treaty, it is a lot more in the broader struggle against the global financial syndicate.

 

 

We raise our concern that this has been delayed not because South Africa has not tried to get amendments signed off. In fact, 10 years of requesting have lapsed and our concern lies with the damage that has already transpired through nonsigning. Our existing tax treaty with Kuwait is some 16- years-old and in the age of tax evasion, this is far too long. Financial tax sector syndicate and individual don’t wait 16 years, they constantly update their tax evasion tactics. In particular, the change relates to secondary tax of companies

 

 

 

and dividend tax at the shareholder’s level. These are major areas of collusion and hence, our concern over the delay. We understand the complexity where there are multiple countries involved, but the need to be a globally negotiated agreement which limits the amount of time given to countries to enter into agreements because of the danger they are related to delays. This should also cover one country signing and another delays before signing. In this case, we have been affected by the most favoured national clause judgement in the Netherlands Supreme Court. As a result, taxpayers were not subjected to a with-holding tax on dividends in terms of South African- Netherlands Treaty. The delay in the entry to the South Africa-Kuwait protocol resulted in the continued revenue loss for the focus. The ANC supports the protocol amending the agreement. I thank you.

 

 

There was no debate.

 

 

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party, Al Jama-ah and African National Congress.

 

 

 

Protocol amending the Agreement between the government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of Kuwait for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income approved.

 

 

 

DEBATE ON NATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY: WOMEN’S SOCIOECONOMIC RIGHTS, EMPOWERMENT AND RESILIENCE

(Subject for Debate)

 

 

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chairperson, good evening, hon members, as we conclude the Women's Month celebration and continue on the reflection of what it means to be a woman in this country, what it meant to be a woman in this country under apartheid and what it means to be a woman today in a patriarchal society. And this can only be described or this comes into mind ... the words that were said by Mama Winnie Mandela years ago when she said:

 

 

The years of imprisonment hardened me ... Perhaps if you have been given a moment to hold back and wait for the next blow, your emotions wouldn't be blunted as they have been in my case. When it happens every day of your life,

 

 

 

when that pain becomes a way of life ... there is no longer anything I can fear.

 

 

The emancipation of women from all forms of oppression is not a job of women alone but is a common societal concern for women and men. It is for this reason that the ANC has for most of its existence imposed a responsibility for all of us and its members and society, perhaps, to say males and females have to fight for the creation of a non-racial and nonsexist society. As we celebrate Women's Month, we must admit that our country still remains a male-dominated society. It is, therefore, important that we reaffirm our commitment to the creation of a truly nonsexist, non-racial and democratic society.

 

 

To the extent that the overall economic transformation for the benefit of the historically disadvantaged is still a challenge. Women’s emancipation, which is a necessary part, will also remain a challenge. The ANC government’s policies have created an enabling framework for the empowerment of women. Because of these policies, more women occupy high- ranking positions in government than before. Women enjoy the same rights as their male counterparts in education, business,

 

 

 

employment, property, inheritance, and in justice. However, these developments have created a situation where the barriers that prevent women from attaining these highest level of success have become invisible. These kind of barriers are commonly referred to as the glass ceiling. Nowhere are these barriers more pronounced than in the economic sphere. In the last 28 years, the policies of the ANC government have created enabling conditions for women to become active participants in the economy. Encouragingly, we have seen the emergence of female trailblazers in various sectors of the economy, which include mining, construction services, and many others. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to Hosi N’wamitwa II, whom I would also congratulate for receiving an honorary doctorate from Unisa for outstanding leadership and the launch of her book titled: The Rock That Never Cracked. As a trailblazer, she cracked and broke the barriers of patriarchy and redefined the traditional leadership within the Vatsonga Valoyi community. Another outstanding leader, a trailblazer I would like to recognise is Daphne Mashile-Nkosi, the executive chairwoman of Kalagadi Manganese, whose fiery reputation earned her the title of African Female Business Leader of the Year Award.

 

 

 

Also, I like to pay tribute to Lebogang Zulu who is the founder and CEO of the AV Group of Companies that specialises in the construction and manufacturing of alternative building materials and products. Mama Gloria Serobe and Louisa Mojela who founded Wiphold, a woman-owned investment company that is invested in various sectors of the economy. Ladies and gentlemen, these trailblazers have shown us that with adequate support, it is possible to disrupt what we call the old boys club. They have shown us that women are just as capable if not better than their male counterparts in building larger and more profitable business enterprises. However, these trailblazers have more often than not reminded, remained exception and not the norm. Indeed, our struggle is to make women’s leadership in the economic sphere a norm. To achieve this, we have to intensify our efforts to demolish the challenges that still loom large in preventing women from attaining total economic emancipation. This includes lack of access to finance, gender bias and gender discrimination, limited trading opportunities and balancing of work and family life. We cannot accept that women of South Africa should continue to be paid less than their male counterparts. Those women could continue ... [Inaudible.] ...

 

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to highlight some of the areas where we have been doing better and what has been done. Under women and entrepreneurship and funding, what has been done is that in order to intensify efforts to financially include women, in 2014, the National Empowerment Fund established the Women Empowerment Fund which is aimed at accelerating the provision of funding to businesses owned by black women. The funding starts from R250 000 to R75 million across a range of sectors for start-ups, expansions and equity acquisition purposes. Although this is a step in the right direction, there is a need to create more funding instruments to assist women entrepreneurs and more women are benefiting from this. On agribusiness, four of the nine projects funded by the Agri-Industrial Fund are women-owned. This R1 billion grant established through a partnership between the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and the Industrial Development Corporation has already dispersed close to R400 million to these nine projects. This fund will help propel women to break the glass ceiling in the agricultural and industrial sectors. On gender-based budgeting, women-owned businesses and black women-led enterprises operating in the built sector are largely underrepresented and significantly left behind their male counterparts.

 

 

 

This is demonstrated by the significant reduction in presence of productive female businesses competing in this sector. To break the cycle, the Department of Human Settlements has developed a national sector-wide programme approach on set- asides for provinces, metropolitan municipalities, and accredited municipalities for human settlements grans. The approach dictates that there should be 40% set aside for women on the procurement budget for all grants. On women's skills training, cognisant of the prevailing perception that construction is an exclusively male industry, we provide training for women to enable them to take their rightful place in the construction sector.

 

 

The National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, provides training interventions for women in construction across all provinces. The programme has expanded to include a module on finance to capacitate women contractors on financial management, as this has been identified as a need by the training participants. The National Housing Registration Council has also developed a Social Transformation Empowerment Programme which focuses on the integration and provision of opportunities for women in construction. To this end, the

 

 

 

NHBRC has partnered with the Gordon Institute of Business Studies, Gibs, to drive this programme.

 

 

For this year, a total of 120 women entrepreneurs have been appointed to this programme and are benefiting, and they will come out with a formal qualification. In the informal and small business sectors, specifically in the informal sector, the informal sector plays an important role in providing employment for those who cannot find jobs in the formal economy. Women are more employed in this sector than men, as it consists of an estimated 47,6% of women compared to 30,6% of men. In recognition of this challenge that the informal sector is facing, our plan is to look into removing micro enterprises out of the small businesses to ease the burden of administrative red tape.

 

 

This will also be accompanied by a national strategy on micro enterprises and a clear regulatory framework around microfinancing so that finance in the informal sector can be more accessible. Ultimately, ladies and gentlemen, our ability as a country to fight poverty, reduce inequality, and create employment are dependent on our ability to grow the economy.

However, growth alone is not sufficient. There is a need to

 

 

 

focus on the growth of labour-absorbing sectors of the economy and ensure that more employment opportunities are provided to women and youth. Not only will a growing economy reduce the number of women trapped in the informal sector. It will also create a thriving and sustainable small business sector.

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, women empowerment policies also need to find expression in the private sector. It is an indictment to corporate South Africa that they are lacking when it comes to female CEOs, which is a mere seven of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE, top 100 companies we are seeing being led by women. The representation of women at the executive level in these companies is really embarrassing and we hope that we can join forces and join hands with the private sector to be able to assist us and see the leadership, in terms of women, by being able to see more chairpersons in the JSE-listed companies.

 

 

As I conclude, this injustice in terms of where we find a lack of women in participation but in a strategic key section of society taking decisions cannot continue. And, therefore, we need to be conscious about the efforts we take to restore the dignity of a woman, especially a black woman, who has remained

 

 

 

the face of poverty pre-1994 and a face of poverty post-1994. Efforts have to be made consciously and deliberately to change the situation around. The heroines of our struggle who sacrificed to make this possible, have long shown us that women do not need a handout. They need equality and equity.

They have taught us that women do not need permission to be their own liberators. We all have internalised that women’s emancipation and women’s empowerment in the context of economic transformation is non-negotiable.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Ngiyabonga. Malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi.

 

 

Ms T MBABAMA: House Chair, last week’s ruling by the Supreme Court of Appeal against the Ingonyama Trust and its board, although significant, is but one lone victory for rural women against the plethora of injustices. There is no certainty that the IT ... has been keeping proper records in order to be able to refund all the residential leases that were paid, as per the court’s ruling. Thoko Didiza, in her capacity as the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, was found to have failed to respect, protect, promote and fulfil the existing property rights, and security of tenure of

 

 

 

trust-held land as required by the Constitution. This makes her complicit, together with the Ingonyama Trust and board in withholding the socioeconomic rights and empowerment of rural women living on the trust’s land.

 

 

Mr H G APRIL: Chairperson, can I rise on a point of order?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mbabama, there’s a point of order. What’s the point of order, hon member?

 

 

Mr H G APRIL: Chairperson, it is unparliamentary to call someone directly by their name. It’s hon Thoko Didiza, or Minister, not just straight Thoko Didiza.

 

 

Ms T MBABAMA: Hon Thoko Didiza is complicit, together with the Ingonyama Trust and board, in withholding the socioeconomic rights and empowerment of rural women living on the trust’s land.

 

 

Nomboniso Gasa, an independent researcher and analyst in gender politics and cultures, writes of one unconstitutional injustice, the oft ignored practice of ukuthwala, where girls

 

 

 

as young as 13 are abducted and forced into marriage, usually with much older men, which she says is still rife in certain areas of our country. When they object to sex and other wifely duties, they are sometimes beaten and raped into submission.

The perceived shame prevents parents from initiating efforts to have the girl-child returned and the lobola that is subsequently paid can be a lifeline to deeply impoverished families, making them accept the inhumane and totally illegal transaction. I wonder what Minister Bheki Cele has got to say about this. These poor girls, children really, are destined to a life of no further education and hardly any means of sustainable livelihoods. For example, it was recently reported by News24 that the SA Human Rights Commission is holding an inquiry into childhood malnutrition in the Eastern Cape, after submissions stated that climate change, poverty and the COVID-

19 pandemic were some of the leading factors for childhood starvation in that province.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

SiyiDA sinendlela elula yokuphuhlisa oomama sigwebe nendlala.

 

 

English:

 

 

 

We believe that we need to go back to the basics, where every home had a food garden for subsistence purposes, whether in the townships or in the rural areas. Both my grandmothers, one in a Pretoria township and the other in rural Eastern Cape, boasted a family garden which also had fruit trees and vegetables, as did every other home in the vicinity.

 

 

Over and above this, each rural homestead had two to four hectares of land for maize and other tradeable foodstuffs. Under the present government, middle-class people are allowed to build homes on these fields, avoiding paying much-needed rates on municipal land and depleting arable agricultural land.

 

 

The DA has supplied vegetable seedlings to women in Ward 24 in Mdantsane as a pilot project, which will be rolled out to other wards in the future. Noluthando Joel does not have much land for a garden on her plot, but this did not deter her from accepting the seedlings and planting them in old tyres and wooden boxes. The women have also expressed a desire to be supplied with day-old broiler and layer chickens to provide much-needed protein for their families.

 

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Urhulumente okhoyo makaqhube norhwaphilizo lwemali ebekufanele ukuba iya ebantwini. Thina siyiDA siphindela kundalashe, sigweba indlala esokolisa abantu baseMzantsi Afrika. Enkosi.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Ms N V MENTE: Sihlalo weNdlu ...

 

 

English:

 

... for the first time ...

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

 ... siza kungqinelana noMphathiswa weSebe lezokuHlaliswa koLuntu ukuba ...

 

 

English:

 

... the face of poverty is indeed a black woman in this country, even during the democratic dispensation. There is a general air of despondency in the country in as far as the fight for the rights of women is concerned. Many people rightfully feel that the state has all but abandoned its duty to protect and advance the rights of women, particularly black women across all sectors of life in this country.

 

 

 

 

 

The annual celebration of National Women’s Day has become an occasion ... which ... would bemoan opportunities that were lost, instead of advances made in the struggle for the complete emancipation of women. This is a serious indictment of the legacy of the post-1994 kleptocratic regime. Today, women earn up to 35% less than men for doing equal work and value, yet nearly 38% of households are solely dependent on the income of women.

 

 

Perhaps the greatest failure of the ruling party in handling the affairs of the country must be in relation to the safety and security of women. We can all agree that women and children are not safe in this country. If you want to confirm that, we had the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Police. They both left before this important debate because it means absolutely nothing to secure the safety of women in this country.

 

 

We now know that these reported cases represent just a tiny fraction ... the cases of more than 11 000. According to the statistics that were presented by Minister Bheki Cele, quarterly more than 11 000 women get raped. That is just a

 

 

 

fraction. Most cases are not reported and you know they are not reported because of the misleading answer we received today, which says that every police station has a Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, unit. This is not true. There are no resources or FCS ... at ... [Inaudible.] ... police station. The gender-based violence, GBV, desk that is there is taking from the limited resources that the police already have in their charge offices.

 

 

In the recent statistics as well, the Minister reported that just over 280 rapists were convicted. You can guess what percentage that is to the number of GBV cases that are reported in this country. It’s not even a fraction of what gets reported. This really means that women are the victims and the state is not willing to help women. We are not shocked though, because a woman was chased all the way from Namibia back here under the instruction of the President and nothing happened. That same fate is going to follow the woman who opened a case against the Minister of Finance Mr Godongwana from the Kruger National Park because people are powerful and no-one ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.

 

 

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, can you note that there’s a point of order. What’s your point of order, hon member?

 

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I’m rising on Rule 85. The member at the podium has just made a serious allegation and cast aspersions on the character of the President ... that a woman from Namibia ... straight to South Africa.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: It’s a fact. It’s a fact unfortunately and it’s public.

 

 

Mr B A RADEBE: ... [Inaudible.] ... come through a substantive motion.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: It’s a fact and it’s public knowledge. You must also understand the Rules.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Radebe, can you repeat that please? I couldn’t hear you.

 

 

 

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, the speaker at the podium said that the President chased a woman from Namibia back to South Africa. That must come through a substantive motion, through Rule 85. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you. That order is sustained.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: Unfortunately, that letter has been sent to the Speaker. Maybe you must acquaint yourself with what is happening in Parliament.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente? Hon Mente, that objection is sustained. Can you withdraw that please?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: The letter was sent, Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can you please withdraw that, hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: No! There is no withdrawal. The letter with the substantive motion was sent to the Speaker.

 

 

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, can you please withdraw that so that we can go ahead with our debate?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: For what? What must I withdraw? No, I am not going to do that.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: I am not going to do that.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: I am not going to do that. It’s public knowledge.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: It’s public knowledge.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, I will request ...

 

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: He did not deny it either. He did not deny it either. In fact, he agreed with this very same statement. He said that, yes, he went to collect people from Namibia who stole dollars from under his mattress.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, if you are not going to listen, I will request you to please leave that podium ...

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: Why should I leave the podium?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... as you leave the House.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: No, for what? For what? Yes ... [Inaudible.] ... for what? For public ... He says ... No, no, no ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson? Chairperson, he says I must submit a substantive motion ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson? Chair?

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, can you please withdraw that? Can you please withdraw that?

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair?

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

E-he, sakushiya erenki. Asinandaba. [Yes, we left you at the rank. We don’t care.]

 

 

English:

 

Ms N V MENTE: I’m not.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, I am still dealing with this.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair ...

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

He-eh, ngifuna ukukusiza [No, I want to assist you.]

 

 

English:

 

... I want to help you.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will give you a chance thereafter.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Can I help you, Chair? Chair, I need to ... [Inaudible.] ... part of the Rules. As the Chair you can even say, I name you, and then for the spirit of the debate ... You are dealing with women’s issues here.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, can you just understand the issues that we are raising? It’s a women’s debate. It’s a women’s debate.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, I did not recognise you in the first place.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... [Inaudible.] ... of the House. You must just say, I name you. [Inaudible.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I don’t need that assistance from you. I don’t need that assistance from you.

 

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, you need our contribution in this debate.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): But I have not even recognised you.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... [Inaudible.] ... going to address the issues affecting women ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, you are out of order! In the first place, I don’t need your assistance.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: You asked for a substantive motion. It’s submitted. What else do you want?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente?

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: You asked for a substantive motion. It’s submitted. What else do you want? You also don’t know your own Rules. You don’t know your own Rules. That substantive motion was submitted. It’s submitted.

 

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Why don’t we just mute the microphones?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Serjeant-at-arms? Serjeant-at-arms? Hon members, please!

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, I just want to get an understanding of what prompts your behaviour today.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The hon Deputy Chief Whip?

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, you are chasing a woman for defending another woman who was beaten by President ... [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, hon

 

House Chairperson.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please! I recognise you, hon Deputy Chief Whip.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you, hon

 

House Chairperson. I want to bring our attention to Rule

 

 

 

92 (11) and (12) ... that the presiding officer’s ruling on a point of order is final and binding, and may not be challenged or questioned in the House. There are processes to be followed when it comes to a member being aggrieved because of a presiding officer’s ruling. Then Rule 12(a) clearly states that a member who is aggrieved by the presiding officer’s ruling on a point of order may subsequently in writing to the Speaker request that the principle or subject matter of the ruling be referred to the Rules Committee. So, I wanted us to be aware of these Rules.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon members. These are our Rules; all of us as a House. So we will follow them to the letter.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: No, huh uh! You can’t be selective when you are reading the Rules.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): My request to hon Mente is that, seeing that she is not prepared to listen and she keeps on commenting ... seeing as she is not prepared to listen, I have requested the Serjeant-at-arms to usher her out of the House please.

 

 

 

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: You can’t be selective when you are reading Rules ... [Inaudible.] ... read the Rule on selective ... [Inaudible.] ... Kill me! Kill me!

 

 

An HON MEMBER: It’s Women’s Month. It’s an attack on women, Chairperson.

 

 

Ms

N V

MENTE: Kill me! Kill me!

 

An

 

HON

 

MEMBER: You are capitulating.

 

Ms

 

N V

 

MENTE: We are elected to be here. [Inaudible.]

 

Ms

 

H O

 

MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, do you want to go down in

 

history ... on a women’s debate, calling bouncers on a woman leader? Your legacy. Chairperson, you want to go down? It’s your legacy.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: You are going to go down as the one who protected ... like you did with Nkandla. You protected a President who abused a woman. You are going to go down in

 

 

 

history ... in the history books of this country ... you protected men who abused a woman. [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thanks for your co- operation, hon Mente.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: No, you must not blackmail us.

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: There is no blackmailing here. The President beat a woman there. [Interjections.] A female domestic worker was beaten in Phala Phala.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: If he beat a woman why can’t the woman open a case and then the President ... [Interjections.] You can’t just come here and accuse the President whenever it ... [Interjections.]

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Twenty-four votes!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please! Can you allow us to deal with this to its finality?

 

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Can I finish the speech of the chair? [Interjections.] Hayi ... [Inaudible.] Chair, can I finish the speech of the chair? [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, can you leave the House please?

 

 

An HON MEMBER: ... [Interjections.] ... rule then go out.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I’m not talking to you! Chair, can I finish the speech of the chairperson?

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Mr 24 votes!

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Go out now man!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members! Hon Mente, can you leave the House please?

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, I’m continuing.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: You’re not!

 

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Women ... [Inaudible.] ... is coming to South Africa and there is no campaign, even by the Deputy Minister who is a woman ... [Inaudible.] ... Parliament kept quiet. [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, please take your seat. Take your seat, hon Mkhaliphi.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, must I come there?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have not yet recognised you. I will, once you have taken your seat. [Interjections.] Take your seat first. Hon Mente, please. [Interjections.] Hon Mente, can you leave the House, please. [Interjections.] Hon Mente, can you leave the House, please.

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: Cyril Ramaphosa assaulted his domestic worker. His female domestic worker.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente? Let us not try to be sensational. Please, let’s leave the House.

Leave the House!

 

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, my hand is up.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mente, leave the House please.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: She’s taking her things! Must she leave her things behind?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The House should continue ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

Mr A H M PAPO: House Chairperson, I’m glad that we are told that members of the EFF are things of hon Mente. [Inaudible.] So, in future we will refer to them as things of hon Mente.

They are not members of the House. They are things of hon Mente.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The House will continue its business. Will you please leave the House? The next speaker ...

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: President Cyril Ramaphosa assaulted his female domestic worker.

 

 

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please! Hon Khawula? Let’s take our seats, please.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Matumba, you are out of order!

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please take your seats. Take your seats please. Can you please take your seats? I want to take an order from your member. [Interjections.] I want to take an order from your member. Can you please take your seats?

 

 

Mr A H M PAPO: Please switch off all the microphones. [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is your point of order, hon Mkhaliphi. I recognise you.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: The point of order is that you are going down in history as a man ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... attacked a woman ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... as the chairperson of the ANC. You are going down ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ...

 

 

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Mkhaliphi.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: ... this debate because of things that you as the Chair ... you are against women.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, thank you very much. Point taken.

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, I can’t be harassed by

 

24 votes. Twenty-four votes must go back to the conference. [Inaudible.] I can’t be harassed and bullied by you ...

24 votes.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Serjeant-at-arms? Serjeant-at-arms ... [Inaudible.] ...

 

 

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I can’t be harassed by 24 votes. [Inaudible.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): ... this member out of the House.

 

 

 

 

 

An HON MEMBER: You are used to that. Just pack and go.

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: Ramaphosa assaulted a female domestic worker. [Interjections.]

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Were you there? Were you there?

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: Ramaphosa assaulted a female domestic worker. [Interjections.]

 

 

An HON MEMBER: He must be charged with GBV. [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Members of the security ... please find the Serjeant-at-arms to usher the member out of the House. [Interjections.]

 

 

Mr A MATUMBA: Ramaphosa assaulted a female domestic worker. [Interjections.]

 

 

An HON MEMBER: If he assaulted that person, why don’t you go to the police with the evidence? [Interjections.]

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, thank you very much. [Interjections.] Can the ICT mute them please? Can you please take them off the platform? Those who are disturbing the House should be taken off. I’ve noted you, hon member. Please, hon Mahlo, if you are the one who has been noisy I’ll request you not to do that, otherwise you’ll have to leave the House as well ... or the platform. Hon Papo?

 

 

Mr A H M PAPO: The point of order is based on the Rule that was raised by member Radebe, where you came to the conclusion that what was said by member Mente requires a substantive motion. That motion is required to be debated, not submitted. Member Matumba made the same statement on the virtual platform. I request you to make a ruling on that one. ...

basically defying your ruling which you came to, which led to member Mente leaving the House. Member Matumba made that same statement which was made by member Mente. It was ... open. It was not said in secret. So that ruling has to be made because you can’t have presiding officers’ rulings continually being defied in this House.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member. Unfortunately, I did not hear hon Matumba

 

 

 

but I will visit Hansard. Once I have done that, I will rule appropriately. Hon Nqola?

 

 

Mr X NQOLA: Thank you very much, House Chair. I think it will be equally important that we draw our attention to Rule 79(1) ... that members must only speak when recognised and given ... authority ... by the presiding officer. I think that, particularly on the virtual platform, we have been

abused since yesterday. Members just speak there whenever they want and however they want. So, we would like to plead with the presiding officers to ensure that they exercise their authority in the enforcement of that Rule so that we are not abused from the virtual platform.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon member. Point taken. Hon member, you had your hand up? Hon Tshabalala?

 

 

Ms J TSHABALALA: Thank you, Chair. My point is on the decorum of the House ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible] ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Can the ICT mute that member please?

 

 

 

 

 

Ms J TSHABALALA: ... of member Matumba and member Babalwa. They have been very destructive in the House, especially on the virtual platform. So, I am just rising to ask you to look into that and to warn the members accordingly, and if they do that perpetually you need to kick them out of the House so that you invoke your powers as a ... [Inaudible.] That is what I wanted to draw your attention to, so that we restore order in the House.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member. It is noted and it has been raised before. We will look into Hansard ... [Inaudible] ... and take the necessary decision.

 

 

Mrs M R MOHLALA: Chairperson?

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, can we continue? However, before we do that ... [Inaudible.] ... ICT, can you remove hon Primrose please?

 

 

Mrs M R MOHLALA: Chairperson, can you please recognise me? I want to rise on a point of order.

 

 

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, hon member. What’s your point of order?

 

 

Mrs M R MOHLALA: Thanks so much, Chairperson. I think you need to be consistent in your rulings. It is not only members of the EFF who are disrupting this session. There are also members of the ANC that keep speaking here on this platform but you are not doing anything about that. Instead, you are warning them nicely and you even say, if you are like them I’m going to remove you.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.

 

 

Mrs M R MOHLALA: Why the different ... [Inaudible.] ... because we are all Members of Parliament. We need to be treated equally. You are treating members of the EFF as if they don’t belong to this Parliament ... [Inaudible] ... voted for. So, let us all be treated equally.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Mohlala. Hon Mohlala and others members on the virtual

 

 

 

platform that are listening, those members were taken out of the House because of their behaviour and it will be consistent. We will continue doing that until members begin to recognise the fact that these Rules are not the Rules of the Chairperson. They are the Rules of the House and all parties involved here have adopted them, including the EFF and other parties. So, we will be consistent about that. Thank you, hon members. Shall we continue? The speaker from the IFP? The hon Hlengwa?

 

 

Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, on 9 August 1956, more than

 

20 000 women collectively used their voices to mobilise against the oppressive apartheid regime. Risking their lives, these women protested for their and our rights, to move freely, and 66 years later, we find ourselves ... [Inaudible.]

... once more, this time, due to gender-based violence.

 

 

 

 

Every woman needs to be heard, appreciated and protected. Every woman at home brings love, grace and beauty to her home. There is no living without a woman. Sometimes, she becomes a mother and father because she loves her family and because she is a woman. She is a pillar at home, to the neighbours, the

 

 

 

community and the country, at large. She is the strength and wisdom of this country, at large. Sometimes, she has to walk an extra mile or give extra time, in order to get promotion, not that she did not deserve it; it is just because she is a woman.

 

 

 

In 2021, Statistics SA reported that one in five women had experienced physical violence by a partner. In the first three months of this year alone, at least 10 818 cases of rape were reported, which is an increase from 13,7% over the same period in 2021. From April to June of this year, 855 women and 243 children were killed in South Africa.

 

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Sesikhathele bakithi.

 

 

 

 

English:

 

For South African women, as a citizen, our Constitution clearly states in Chapter 2 section 11 that everyone has the right to life. Chapter 2 section 12(c) reiterates this by stating that everyone has the right to be free from all forms

 

 

 

of violence from their public or private entities. Therefore, the question I want to pose today is as follows: What socioeconomic rights do South African women have, when we hear women being murdered daily? From our ... [Time expired.]

 

 

 

Ms T BREEDT: Hon Chairperson, maybe, let me start out by saying that I am appalled by the way in which we as women have spoken to each other in this condescending manner these past two days. We should not be that and do that. We are women, we are leaders, and we set the example in this House. To speak to each other with such disrespect should not happen, not today and not ever.

 

 

Let me continue. Another Women’s Month has come and gone, another year has passed, since Parliament sat here in these benches to address gender-based violence, GBV, women’s socioeconomic rights and empowerment. Yesterday, the President announced that the second GBV summit will be held and that it will be a report and feedback session, with regard to what has worked and what has not worked, in terms of government interventions to address GBV. Today, the Minister in the Presidency, Minister Gungubele, hosted a dialogue on gender-

 

 

 

based violence and femicide in Gugulethu. GBV is running rampant in Gugulethu and yet, the government is having another talk shop. We are having another dialogue.

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

As die President moet vra wat gewerk en wat nie gewerk het nie, en die Minister Gungubele wil nog meer praat oor geslagsgeweld, dan weet mens hier is groot fout. Jy hoef dan nie te vra wat die lot van vroue in Suid-Afrika is nie. Niks, absoluut niks word vir die vrouens van Suid-Afrika gedoen nie, en die vroue in Suid-Afrika het nie ’n toekoms in die land nie.

 

 

Die tyd het aangebreek dat vroue in Suid-Afrika besef dat hulle heil van hulself gaan afhang. Hul bemagtiging en hul toekoms lê nie by die regering of ’n regeringsprojek of by iemand anders nie. Die tyd het aangebreek dat vroue vir hulself opstaan en dat vroue saam staan en sterk staan teen onderdrukking en teen diskriminasie wat daagliks ervaar word, want vroue verdien beter.

 

 

Die datums 1843 ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ms J TSHABALALA: Chairperson, on a point of privilege: I want to check if the member is willing to take a question, because she says women don’t have a future.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, will you take a question?

 

 

Ms T BREEDT: No.

 

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Die vier datums, 1843, 1915, 1940, 1956 het een ding in gemeen en dit was nie lank, lank gelede nie. Vroue was keelvol. Onder andere het hulle Uniegeboue toe gemars om hul misnoeë te kenne te gee. Hulle was klaar. Hulle was siek en sat dat mans net wou opgee. Hulle was ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Zulu, please mute. Oh, hon Sisulu. Sorry, hon Zulu. Hon Sisulu,

please check your gadget.

 

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Me T BREEDT: Vroue was moeg om diskriminasie teenoor ander te sien, hulle was moeg om self diskriminasie te ervaar. Duisende vroue het sonder die Internet, sonder goed wat ons vandag tot ons beskikking het, dit reggekry om, wanneer die regering hulle versuim het, hand in eie boesem te steek en self ’n oplossing daar te stel. Hoeveel makliker sal dit nie vandag vir ons as vroue hier wees om dit te doen, om te kommunikeer, te organiseer met die hulpbronne tot ons beskikking nie? Maar wat doen ons? Ons baklei teen mekaar en ons staan bakhand en bid vir ’n beter oplossing elders.

 

 

English:

 

We need to take note of entrepreneurs like the Khumalo sisters of Warrenton in the Northern Cape, who saved up their money and created a start-up poultry business. They are growing their business. We need to tell their story amongst each other. We need to encourage other women to seek their own destinies, because that is the only true way that women will be empowered and self-sufficient. We are resilient by nature, but we just need to start believing and doing it for ourselves. I thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ms M E SUKERS: Chair, I want to start today to just extend the condolences of the ACDP to a young pilot from the Klein Karoo, Nicole Mienie’s family.

 

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Nicole, ons vertrou dat jy vandag met die engele sweef.

 

 

 

 

English:

 

In this debate on Women’s Day, I want to agree with what was said by my colleague. It is time for women to unite around the issues that women are facing in our country. Our focus should be on uplifting women who have not yet attained economic or financial freedom. We must look at women who are left behind, either by circumstances or by happenstance. It is up to us women in leadership to show the example of how to do that.

 

 

 

The ACDP has consistently call for the implementation of the National Senior Certificate for Adults, Nasca.

 

 

 

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, may I just rise on a point of order and ask you to exclude the people on the platform. The previous speaker was interrupted continually and now the ACDP speaker is being interrupted continually.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): [Inaudible.] ... we do attend to that, ... [Interjections.] ... but even members in the House should make sure that they get recognised to make their points. I will request members on the virtual platform to please be careful of your gadgets. Some of you are creating a lot of disturbance. [Inaudible.] ... please.

 

 

 

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, may I rise on a point of order? Can you just ensure that the ADCP speaker, hon Sukers, gets the additional time ...

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart, that is being taken care of by the timekeepers. Hon Sukers, you have one minute and 55 seconds left. Nothing has been taken away. Whenever there is a disruption, the timekeepers take care of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ms M E SUKERS: The ACDP has consistently call for the implementation of the National Senior Certificate for Adults. This qualification is vital in addressing socioeconomic rights and the empowerment of women. We have to address the barriers to further and ongoing learning that are unique to women.

Education and specifically, certified and recognised qualifications are the best way of women economically advancing themselves and escaping the traps of poverty.

 

 

 

The biggest hurdle to accessing further education and better employment opportunities for adult women is the lack of a Matric or recognised school-leaving certificate. It is failure of this government that in 2024, it will be 10 years since the gazetting of the Nasca and it is highly doubtful that a single woman will have a Nasca certificate in her hand by that sad anniversary.

 

 

 

The ACDP has addressed this issue in the House and in the committee before. If this government lacks the money, find it from the wasteful programmes not researched that are repeatedly launched by the Department of Basic Education and

 

 

 

the Department of Higher Education. If you lack the political will, the ACDP will take this issue to the people of South Africa.

 

 

 

The ACDP, therefore, in this debate, calls for the immediate implementation of the Nasca and according to the original four subjects, 50% pass qualification, as gazetted in 2014. No more excuses. The consequences of the failure to do this and thereby providing access to further learning and development to thousands of women of all ages who have the capacity to still become anything they envision for their lives within their unique capability will be squarely placed at the feet of government.

 

 

 

When you empower a woman, you change the lives of generations. We know this. Women are central to the advancement of our community. Let us not deny them the chance for one minute longer and therefore I am applauding you let us make it happen for thousands of South African women. Thank you.

 

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, he said he said he is having some difficulty on the platform, he sent the message with chief whip’s WhatsApp group.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, we will continue, or are you going to stand in for him? Hon...

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: No, no sir, is not my turn yet now.

 

 

Ms T L MARAWU: Thank you very much hon House Chairperson. Hon members of this House, the evolution of the modern South African women, our needs, aspirations, hopes and dreams have dramatically changed from the struggles of the early women who fought for many issues but grounded in the emancipation of women in totality. Although the struggle pillars remain the same, much has changed, where women faced the same struggle pillars just disguised as something different.

 

 

Hon members, it makes no sense for many women in the work place to still be fighting for wage equality, when they are in turn subjected to inhuman policies such as the maternity procedures, which see many women working until their last weeks of their pregnancy. Nurse their babies for few weeks,

 

 

 

then be expected to be back in the workforce or risk losing their jobs.

 

 

It should be considered criminal that many women that suffer at the hands of many perpetrators, who claim women’s lives heinously, because sometimes dependency is a core determinant for these rising numbers where the state is supposed to be working towards emancipate these women through initiative that advances the needs of these women.

 

 

We need to monitor very closely the Employment Equity Act, the amendment of policies in the workplace, the creation of a victim centric system that protects women. The introduction of death penalty for repeat heinous crimes, the protection of the South African family structure to women initiative.

 

 

As a growing concern, we should be focusing ... [Inaudible.]

 

... on women empowerment, broadly zooming on property construction and finance. We propose a woman ... [Inaudible.]

... legislative system that will adjust the social ills that are affecting women and children of our country.

 

 

 

Additionally, House Chairperson, we should ensure that we accelerate access to adequate health facilities especially in the rural areas. Focusing on pregnant women and those infected with human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. Access to sanitary towels to girl children should be made priority. Women pensioners that are disadvantaged because of lack of access to medical facilities. Counselling and rehabilitation for women in particular, those that have gone through various force of abuse.

 

 

We endorse and advocate for women to be in the forefront of Fourth Industrial Revolution, if we do not do this House Chairperson, the next generation will inherit a state that is tatters, if the women are not economically free, we cannot regard this as a total freedom. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Mr B N HERRON: House Chair, much of the focus of this Women’s Month has quite rightly been on the scale of the problem of gender-based violence perpetrated by men against women in South Africa.

 

 

Among the key stimulants of this violence is the level of gender inequality in our society. Women are less likely to

 

 

 

hold leadership positions than men, they are less likely to be employed than men, and those women who are employed usually earn less than men.

 

 

These inequalities, combined with men’s relative physical strength and the pressures placed on men to be strong men, reinforce the notion in the patriarchal society that women are intrinsically less valuable than men.

 

 

While turning gender discrimination and the objectification of women around, sustainably, will take time, like turning the Titanic, there are things we could do tomorrow to begin to achieve more balance.

 

 

These include addressing the many challenges women continue to face with regard to equal opportunities and treatment in the labour market.

 

 

Those women fortunate to have a job are not just paid less than men but are often excluded from growth opportunities and particular positions.

 

 

 

The recent Quarterly Labour Force Survey found that a staggering 36,8% of women, were unemployed, compared to 32,4% of men. As usual, by far the worst off were African women, of whom 41% were without jobs. Men occupied 66,9% of managerial positions in South African businesses.

 

 

Excluding people with talent and potential from occupying positions on the basis of gender is just as bad as excluding them on the basis of colour, religion or culture.

 

 

Government is aware of the number of single mothers and breadwinners out there. Living on the edge. Poverty and food security render women more vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.

 

 

Victims of gender-based violence are often economically dependent on those who abuse them, trapping them in a spiral of violence, too afraid to speak out, they shut up and endure.

 

 

House Chair, South Africa has made some progress in promoting gender equality, but far from enough. We must do more to integrate women into local and national politics, and into senior positions in the civil service.

 

 

 

 

 

As a GOOD party calls for equal pay for equal work. When we empower women, House Chairperson, we empower families and communities. Thank you.

 

 

 

Ms N K SHARIF: Thank you very much, House Chairperson, first, I would like to give our condolences to the Western Cape provincial government for the passing of Lorraine Botha, the Chief Whip, may her soul rest in peace. House Chair, the topics of these debates are becoming lazy. This is basically the Youth Day Debate topic, copy, paste and a slight edit. We can’t keep talking about resilience. I’ve already told you, young people and women should not have to be resilient, we are forced to be. We cannot see any socioeconomic rights or empowerment having true meaning when we are just trying to stay alive.

 

 

Day 31 of Woman’s Month, it’s always bittersweet. We must accept the fact that it has become problematic, it is commercialized and clout chasing, it romanticizes a painful existence riddled with violence in every aspect. It feels like

 

 

 

being put on a pedestal made of water, collapsing at the brim, then back to the struggle for the remaining 334 days.

 

 

The struggle is indeed continuous, living in South Africa is wild. We have an entire Police Minister using rape and lucky in the same sentence and trying to justify it without recognizing his comments were offensive to so many. I guarantee, the ANC will come here and justify it to death, just like President Ramaphosa did yesterday, talking about translation, we must speak about content.

 

 

Self-reflection is hard, but it is necessary to have the ability to recognize and admit when we you are wrong and apologize, this is important for any person but more especially for leaders in our society. The lack of

self-awareness and lack of accountability, is a clear example of Minster Cele’s arrogance. It is infuriating because it shows that the Minister does not care and believes that what he said is perfectly ok - WILD!

 

 

South Africa remains the rape capital of the world, one of the most violent societies for women. We are sold porcelain dreams

 

 

 

that shatter every day when another woman is claimed as a victim of violence.

 

 

President Ramaphosa comes to Parliament yesterday and gives us stats, as if we don’t live these stats every day, he must be decisive and fire those Ministers who do not care, who have no political or moral will and disregards all of the solutions we have hand fed them across the years.

 

 

Thuthuzela Care centres are a great resource but they are struggling and it limits the amount of work they can do. When a Thuthuzela Care Centre, TCC, does not have the ability to provide a range of its services then it is not working optimally and it is directly affecting women on the ground.

President Ramaphosa must speak on the true state of TCCs across the country instead of selling an unrealistic expectation.

 

 

As women we are tired, living in this country is exhausting enough, the least you can do is be straight up and honest! We have to keep putting up the fight for woman’s rights, equality and justice. The road remains long, difficult and testing but we must put on our armour and defend our sovereignty as women

 

 

 

for we are not only fighting for ourselves but for we are fighting for entire generations to come. I thank you.

 

 

Ms N E MOTAUNG: Thank you, House Chair. As we conclude this Women’s Month we have to remind the nation that women are a powerful motive force for a change. The gains, efforts and struggle of women towards gender equality is a prominent one in the history of our nation and the world. We must always remember the contribution and sacrifices made by the women of 1956.

 

 

 

The women’s movement in South Africa was in many ways instrumental to success of struggle against apartheid. The women’s movement played a role in shaping the national liberation discourse and committed itself to the struggle of our liberation movement. As evident in their participation and contribution to the defiance campaign activities of the fifties, even before being properly organised under the banner of the Federation of South African Women, women have always been involved in defining their positions, involvement and leadership in society.

 

 

 

During the apartheid years, women were oppressed and denied their rights, their voice and urgency. Women did not enjoy the same social, economic and political status as their male counterparts. They are views and contributions were not equated to those of men and they were not expected to concern themselves with the socioeconomic and political conditions in society other than in their homes. However, breaking all boundaries and stereotypes, women stood tall against the oppressive system of apartheid that restricted their freedom, forced them to carry passes and further infringing their human dignity.

 

 

 

The Women of 1956 took it upon themselves to bring about change by organising themselves and defying all patriarchal standards that restricted their movement and freedom, laying the foundations for future generations of women not to suffer the same oppression. The struggle stalwarts such as Mme Albertina Sisulu, Charlotte Maxeke, Dorothy Nyembe, Fatima Meer and living legend aunty Sophia De Bruyn shaped and laid the foundation for women to take upon the space, represent and lead in society. The efforts of these women and many more have encouraged future generations of young women like many of us

 

 

 

participating in this debate to be courageous and claim their space in society as leaders.

 

 

 

The women who came before us left us with a legacy such as Women’s Charter for effective equality which was adopted on 17 April 1954, during the founding of the conference of the Federation of South African Women. The Federation of South African Women is an example of women’s ability to organise and mobilise millions of women in the struggle or fight for their rights. The women led massive campaigns under the banner of the African National Congress Women’s League and the Federation of South African Women such as the Anti-Pass Campaign of 1956 which remains of historical significance in our country.

 

 

 

The Women’s Charter called for the empowerment of men and women of all races, for equal opportunities in employment, equal pay for equal work, equal rights in relation to property rights, marriage and children, and the removal of all laws and customs that denied women such equality. The task to change the system of patriarchy that sees women inferior to men in our economy, our society, our culture and traditions, and our

 

 

 

families lies with us. We must ensure that the Women’s Charter for effective equality which calls for equal participation, recognition and development of women in all aspects of life society across is enforced. Gender equality should not be seen as a secondary issue to the economy.

 

 

 

Leaders and governance, women emancipation and the increasing presence of women in the center of power and decision-making must be taken seriously and they should be prioritised for the country. Notwithstanding the persistent challenges, notable progress has been achieved since the adoption of the Women’s Charter for effective equality. Today, there are more women in government leadership position than before. Thanks to the policy of the ANC. Here in this august House, we have a Cabinet comprises of 50% female Ministers and 50% male Ministers. This House has close to 50% of female Members of Parliament and it is to be noted that since 1994, Parliament has been appointing mainly women as National Speakers. In government, more than 60% of public servants are women and women have increased in senior management positions to over 41% higher than in previous years.

 

 

 

More still needs to be done although in this regard, particularly in the private sector where the challenges of women representation still persist. Progressive strides have to be made in the inclusion of women in various sectors of the economy, for example, access to land for current and prospective women farmers remains one of the key priorities of their government Land Reform Programme. The government has introduced proactive measures to ensure that beneficiary selection criteria focus on enhancing women’s ownership of land. When women own the land they make it productive and it turns to be better fed, better educated and healthier.

 

 

 

The government has already commenced with the allocation of state-owned land to beneficiaries in need of agricultural land. The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development through the conditional Comprehensive Agricultural Support Program has prioritised women targeted projects and funded them for the financial year 2020 and 2023. The Radical Agrarian Socio-Economic Transformation programme is also helping women to land for farming and to get their products to market. South Africa has committed itself to the number of treaties and strategies to prioritise women, including the

 

 

 

Beijing Declaration and its Platform for Action 1995, which advocate directly for gender progressive budgeting through an actionable political commitment to empower women. More still needs to be done in reference to this in the department following the gender progressive budgeting framework adopted in 2018.

 

 

 

There is a need to be a more sustainable, comprehensive and to take a multisectoral approach to gender mainstreaming within all spheres of government as well as monitoring and evaluation. In November, the second presidential summit on gender violence and femicide will do a detailed assessment on the National Strategic Plan implementation and chant the way forward. We must fast-track effective implementation of the National Strategic Plan across the government departments if we are to see effective change in the public service on the inclusion of women in senior management position. [Time expired.] Thank you, Chairperson.

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson. Allow me to start off by paying tribute to the women, particularly the mothers. You can have everything in the world, but no mother,

 

 

 

you have nothing. You can have nothing in the world, but have your mother, you have everything. Blessed are those who still have their mothers. Love them, respect them, take good care of them.

 

 

I want to also pay tribute to the likes of Amina Cachalia, Ida Mntwana, Heloise Ruth First, Rahima Moosa, Helen Suzman, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, Albertina Sisulu, Fatima Meer, Lillian Ngoyi, Navanethem Pillay and Cheryl Carolus. These are some of the women that played a significant role in the struggle for the liberation of our country, particularly our women. So, the question we need to ask ourselves, with the role that these women played starting in 1956, how far have we come?

 

 

Now, I have heard many people talk about some of the progress, but my statistics gives me some different information. First of all, let me say that 56% of public servants in the country are women. But at salary level 12, there are only 9% of women. At senior management level there is only 38% of women. At management level country wide there is only between 20 to 29% of women in South Africa holding these positions. Cabinet took a resolution in 2006 to deal with this matter. At salary level

 

 

 

16, which is the highest level, women only hold 19% in this country.

 

 

Let’s look at the public service which has approximately 161 national and provincial departments. At national level, males are 23 while the females are 12. Now look at the statistics at KwaZulu-Natal, at provincial level, only one female Director- General. And the HODs, 54 are male and 23 are female. But worse than that is the special advisors to Ministers, 53 are males and only 23 are females.

 

 

So, the opportunity is there and it has been created. Women you have the power. You have the voice. Why are sitting back and allowing men to continue you lead? Why are you not putting pen to paper? Talk is cheap. Let’s get out there and put that into action and ensure that women hold these positions that you stand here and raising concern about the patriarchal society that we live in. But yet, you have the opportunity, you are in government, you are in control, but you are doing very little or nothing about it.

 

 

If you want to improve the status of women in this country, then yes indeed, you have the power. Do what is right. You,

 

 

 

and only you can change the lives of women. No man is going to change your lives. I just want to say that lastly, if you look at the presence of the number of people, in such an important debate in this House, it tells you how serious we take women in the country. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

 

 

 

Mr S M JAFTA: Thank you, House Chair. The socio economic status of women in our country must be understood against the following barometers: women’s access to rural land and tenure security, women’s economic participation in the mainstream economy, women’s payment structure in both the private and public sectors, and lastly, women’s accession to key influential positions such as the judiciary.

 

 

We sketch out this background to underscore the clearing objective realities that women have to contend with. The recent Statistics SA Quarterly Labour Survey, for instance, reveals that women economic in activity stood at 47% in the period April to June 2022. This is in sharp contrast to men who stood at low base of 35,6% in the same period under review.

 

 

 

We also note that women also struggle to access quality medical healthcare and to get equal pay to work of equal value. Despite these challenges, we know that women have made great strides to leverage their own circumstances. The likes of Professor Thuli Madonsela, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka and the Speaker of this very National Assembly have fed well innovative leadership, excellency and stewardship.

 

 

It will therefore be ... [Inaudible.] ... of us not to congratulate the following phenomenal women: The reigning Miss South Africa, Ndavi Nokeri, the Banyana Banyana team for winning this year’s Africa Cup of Nations Women’s Tournament, the Deputy Chief Justice Mandisa Maya, for her outstanding judicial record and appointment and Justice Khampepe and ... [Inaudible.] ... who both of whom served in the Constitutional Court and appear in our recommendations finalist list on the section 89 impeachment process. We have no doubt that the resilience of women will continue to stand them in good stead. I thank you.

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, House Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.

 

 

 

 

 

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Al-Jamah wants to pay tribute to the late hon Hishaam Mohamed, who helped fast track three Acts of Parliament to deal with reducing gender-based violence.

Harming the dignity of women, no matter what the religion, is as bad as gender-based violence. So Al-Jamah deployed me to submit three Private Members Bill to help restore the dignity of Muslim wives and wives of other ... [Inaudible.] cultures who are in ... [Inaudible.] ... which is a cultural holy marriage and union.

 

 

The three Bills are the Bill No 17 Amendments in the Maintenance Act. The second Bill is the intermarriage registration of Muslim Marriages Act of 221 and three is the amendment to the Divorce Act for Muslim wives to get their ... [Inaudible.] from the third estate they contributed to.

Muslim culture along with African culture gives women their right. The party says that the spouses who have entered the marriage or a second marriage are to get a valid South African marriage certificate in terms of the Cultural Act that is non- compliance, the culture as well as their belief.

 

 

 

So Al-Jamah’s private members bill is to allow for the registration of the ... [Inaudible.] ... Muslim marriage in terms of the Muslim Marriage Act onto the Omnibus Marriage Act to sign by President Ramaphosa before 2004.

 

 

On Saturday I was in Atteridgeville where 200 African Muslim wives and they want us to bring their concern to parliament that they want a valid South African marriage certificate, although they are in a Muslim marriage. We want to call on all the men of all political parties to do more for women. We haven’t heard much contribution from men to advance the rights of women. ... [Inaudible.] that men are not doing their bit to advance the rights of women of South Africa. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr L MPHITHI: Thank you, House Chair. I am very proud today to stand here as members of the DA caucus here having our Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip both women. Showing that indeed the DA leads when it comes to empowering women in this Parliament. When masculinity is in crisis ...

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order! Order, hon members. Hon members, please. Hon Mphithi, you are protected.

 

 

 

 

 

Mr L MPHITHI: Thank you, House Chair. I hope my time is also protected as well. When masculinity is in crisis it turns on women. There is no time to be resilient. There is no time to listen to debates that lead to no change. There is no time to have hope when we have a Minister who believes that you are lucky to be raped once. To those young women, I am sorry that your pain was minimised as that way. It happened because we have Ministers who don’t have to worry about their safety.

 

 

We have Ministers who are protected by bodyguards. Theirs is a life of armed police, high raise, fences and blue lights. They do not understand what it means to look over their shoulders. They do not understand what it means to worry about your safety on a daily basis. For them justice is a phone call away. For you, its years waiting. We know this because of all the promises that have been made in the past that are yet to materialise. From the President down to his Ministers, there has been zero accountability, zero delivery to the promises made to South Africans women in particular.

 

 

Gender-based violence is an establishment that thrives in an environment of no accountability, no justice, no service

 

 

 

delivery, entrenched in partriogener of complete lack of will. Years ago President Ramaphosa introduced a GBVF council, which he claimed would tackle the scourge of gender-based violence. However, till to this day, nothing has happened. Wed have the department of women, youth and persons with disabilities which focuses on webinars instead of providing substantive action like increasing shelters for women who are under attack in their homes.

 

 

We have a police Minister who has presided over a DNA backlog crisis, which has denied justice to hundreds and thousands of victims, rape, murder and violent crimes. Today there are over

150 000 DNA samples yet to be processed. Can you imagine being led down by the last line of defence in your country? Many South Africans don’t have to imagine because these are their lived experiences. Yesterday President Ramaphosa made it clear that he chooses Minister Cele over the women in this country. A Minister of Police who tells people to shut up when they raise their concerns about their [Inaudible.] ... in their communities.

 

 

A refusal to listen that stems from power and privilege. These social contrasts and ego driven complexes endorse toxicity and

 

 

 

government that is out of touch with reality of ordinary South Africans. The Western Cape government has the biggest and most comprehensive safety plan with the largest budget to keep people safe. The DA believes that local police authorities are better in crime prevention and fighting it. Here in Parliament, the DA threw hon Andrew Whitfield fought to bring back the amendment Bill to deal and ensure that criminals can give their DNA so that we don’t have repeat offenders at the expense of South African people.

 

 

Finally, to us as men, it is not enough to be deeply worried about these issues because that is not enough. We need more guts to challenge each other, to disrupt each other, and begin to change the liberal tragedy in our society. This is one of the ways in which we stop dominance systems from maintaining themselves. To stop the trajectory of going unexamined issues that are actually about us. Women’s Day is supposed to be about looking how far we have come in terms of gender equality, but now it is all become gender-based violence awareness. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, that brings us to the last speaker. What is your problem? Hon members, what is your problem? I am saying, that brings us to the last speaker.

 

 

Setswana:

 

Ao batho ba Modimo. Ao!

 

 

 

English:

 

Hon members, that brings us to the last speaker of the day.

 

 

 

 

Sepedi:

 

Mna T MALATJI: Thobela Modulasetulo wa Ngwako, lehono re tlile mo go tlo keteka basadi - bommagorena, bosesi, basadi bao ba gateletiwego ke tie ka moka.

 

 

 

English:

 

They were oppressed because of their colour. They were oppressed because of colour. They were oppressed because of

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sepedi:

 

... ke basadi.

 

 

 

 

English:

 

As society, we are here to confront many multifaceted and mutually defacing pandemics. Covid-19 and gender-based violence and femicide, poverty, unemployment and our collective heritage have demolished and overruled systems of social order.

 

 

 

In our view, these societal challenges are endemic because of the prevalence of negative effects on the lives of our people that we seek to improve.

 

 

 

It would be an injustice not to correctly allocate the issues that continue to confront our society, without recognising the impact of colonialism and apartheid on black working class families, which were disadvantaged for decades because of the realness of the apartheid system on capital, and on cheap

 

 

 

labour that was premised on isolating black husbands from their wives and fathers from their children.

 

 

 

The economic status quo further deepens the complexity of the relationship between economic freedom and gender inequality. It is therefore important that, as we intensify the fight against gender-based violence and femicide, we also intensify the fight for economic freedom and focus on women who bear the brunt of poverty and inequality in South Africa. We can root out patriarchy in society by addressing the social inequalities, which continue to oppress women.

 

 

 

Of the South African listed companies on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE, about 8% of the top positions are held by women. The recent findings have reported that equal pay for equal work will not be achieved after 100 years. It cannot be right that only three women were appointed in executive positions across the JSE between January 2020 and 2022.

 

 

 

Our society needs to undergo a structural change to resolve the issues of gender inequality. Inglis helps us to understand

 

 

 

the political economy in such a way that we recognise that women exclusion from the economy is largely based on how they are rated as a means of production. We also learn from Inglis that the historical enslavement of women is tied to private property, which is how patriarchy is maintained today.

 

 

 

Therefore, we must address the system of exclusion that reinforces the skewed power relations between women and men in society. The world and land in our society must be shared equally between men and women, mainly black.

 

 

 

In the process of radical economic and socioeconomic transformation, women and men must contribute and benefit equally. Women should own assets and receive equal pay for work done. The gender gap is a reflection of the super exploitation of women. Our country’s current status indicates clearly the rate that our society’s social fragmentation affects moral values, and gender-based violence and femicide issues.

 

 

 

Our nation observed tragic events such as the recent gang rape of eight sisters by more than 80 illegal foreign nationals, called ama Zama Zama. This is mainly a reflection of a deep problem for our criminal justice system and how it must protect women and all vulnerable groups against the manifestation of patriarchy in society and all forms of violence.

 

 

 

Allow me to make a clarion call against the siege of gender- based violence and femicide in society. It is obvious that, at this stage, the radical approach to uproot gender-based violence is that every social structure in society is a ... [Inaudible.].

 

 

 

We owe it to the women and other marginalised groups such as the LTBIQ Plus community, to take a firm stance against the rolling out of violence in our communities, and restore the dignity of women.

 

 

 

It is unacceptable that South Africa with such an enroot it made towards nation-building, principles of equality, freedom,

 

 

 

is also the place where women live in fear of their lives and men in society. Our society has created an environment where women can no longer move freely in their communities.

 

 

 

In a developing country, we need to work hard to make sure that we root out poverty. This implies that experience of poverty is not only material deprivation, but it also indicates that people who are experiencing poverty frequently have no opportunity to influence the economy, politics and social processes that control their lives and protect them against poverty. That status quo must stop.

 

 

 

One of the strategic objectives of the national democratic revolution is to build a nonsexist society. A national democratic society cannot be built only by the ANC government, but by all partners, including the ones on the left. We must work together, to make sure that we fight and make sure that we improve the livelihoods of our women.

 

 

 

In the words of a revolutionary, Thomas Sankara, an I quote:

 

 

 

There is no true social revolution without the liberation of women. May my eyes never see and my feet never take me to a society where half of the people are held in silence. I hear the roar of women in silence. I sense the rumble of their storm and feel the fury of their revolt.

 

 

 

The liberation of society will never be complete without the emancipation and empowerment of women. Through the National Strategic Plan on Gender-based Violence and Femicide, our government has co-operated with civil society to build South Africa free from gender-based violence and femicide.

 

 

 

Due to the lack of prioritising women authorities, many cases of gender-based violence are not reported. In reality, less than 47% of those noted in court and 45% of those getting withdrawn from courts, 5% are sentenced and less than 20% are convicted. More must be done.

 

 

 

Given the sad realities of the court regarding gender-based violence and femicide, it is not seen as an important concept

 

 

 

by the reflection of our life experience in our daily struggle.

 

 

 

The criminal justice system has strengthened the Sexual Offenses Act and Related Matters Amendment Act and the Criminal Law and Related Amendment Act. And those Acts improve the protection of children and vulnerable persons. Given the complexity of the rights to make representation on specific parole issues, women should speak out.

 

 

 

The justice system has given Ntukhuko Shoba life imprisonment for planning the killing of Tshegofatso Pule, who was eight months pregnant at the time of her killing. It is critical that we teach the boy child to respect women, to understand the equality with girls through the values, to guide them at home, schools, churches and cultural practices. Culture is not

... [Inaudible.] ... that can evolve, which will change the mental conditions. It must reflect the goal of culture.

 

 

 

It is also important that we call out ... [Time expired.] ... eating sushi on top of women. We must not forget such

 

 

 

behaviour, because it is degrading for women to see men choosing to eat sushi on top of women. Now, when we fight for these women, we must honour them by making sure that this never happen again in our lifetime. Thank you.

 

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Malatji, thank you very much, but I need to make you aware that I am still the House Chair. Although I am dreaming of becoming a Speaker one today, I am still a House Chair.

 

 

Debate concluded.

 

 

 

The House adjourned at 20:13.

 

 

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