Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 04 Aug 2022


No summary available.



Watch: Plenary


The Council met at 14:03.

The House Chairperson: Committees and Oversight took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


Nyambi): Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to remind you of the following that the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. The place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town where the seat of the National Council of Provinces is. Delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces, for the purpose of the quorum all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be.

The interpretation facilities are active and permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their gadgets are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. Any delegate who wishes to speak must use the raise your hand function. All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chatroom, connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system.

Hon delegates, in accordance with the Council Rule 229(1), there will be no notices of motions or motions without notice.

Hon delegates before we proceed to the question I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister from the governance cluster, specifically the Minister in the Presidency, hon Gungubele, the Minister in The Presidency for Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, hon Nkoana- Mashabane, MECs and all permanent and special delegates to the House. Further I would like to make the following remarks, hon Ministers. The time for reply by the Minister to a question is strictly five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask the supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for replying a supplementary question is four minutes. A supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.

I will now call upon the Minister in the Presidency for governance to respond to Question 43 asked by hon Shaik.

Question 43:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Chairperson of the NCOP and hon members. The department’s mandate is to facilitate, influence and support effective planning, monitoring and evaluation of Cabinet’s programmes for improving service delivery outcomes and the impact on society. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, does not have an integrated government wide early warning system to track and or detect policy failures and poor implementations. Currently, the department uses a number of instruments, processes and methodologies as a government wide early warnings system. Amongst those examples include monitoring and the National Development Plan 2030 through tracking and remediation of the Medium-Term Strategy Framework biannual report.

The Medium-Term Strategy Framework, MTSF, biannual report provides progress with regard to the implementation of the sustained agenda of government. In the development of the MTSF biannual reports the DPME draws data from all its monitoring systems. The Medium-Term Strategy Framework provides a warning to Cabinet on where challenges are and clearly indicates where targets are not likely to be met. This offers Cabinet an early warning system indicating which indicators of the sustained agenda will not be met.

Assessing quality of management practise and delivery in local government through the Local Government and Management Improvement Model. The Local Government Management Improvement Model, LGMIM, is based on proactive approach and support of the objectives of achieving responsive accountable, effective and efficient developmental local government system. It assists in identifying and resolving institutional problems thereby ensuring that municipalities meet the minimum floor of norms and standards of good institutional performance. The roll-out of LGMIM is currently in its ninth year since its inception and pilot.

To date 262 municipal assessments have been concluded with metropolitans, district and local municipalities that have participated in the programme. Of the total, 12 municipalities were assessed during the 2013-14 financial year in the pilot face. Thirty municipalities were assessed in the 2014-15 and 2015-16 financial years respectively. A number of 41 municipalities were assessed during the 2016-17 financial year, 36 municipalities during the 2017 financial year and 37 municipalities during the 2018-19 financial years.

Regarding the frontline service delivery monitoring system, the DPME also conducts frontline monitoring visits through which trends and challenges with call face service delivery are tracked. Emerging trends are identified and policy failures are also detected. This serves as an early warning. Through these improvement, plans are then developed in consultation with the relevant stakeholders to address the issues. The frontline service delivery monitoring, FSDM, visits are currently underway focussing on ideal clinics and safe schools.

Monitoring in Sona commitments is another tool. Following its state of the nation address the DPME and the President collaborate to design instruments for tracking programmes which Sona commitments. The DPME combines reports for the President on the state of progress with these commitments. The

more recent has been produced in June 2022. Currently, the DPME does not have a complete digital government wide early warning system which is interoperable. The DPME aims to introduce a digital monitoring system taking advantage of advances in the digital technology. To track progress towards government annual performance plans the DPME bills on quarterly reports that are submitted through the exiting electronic platform which enables a single view of performance across national and provincial government departments. Through these reports the DPME can track the state of performance on quarterly basis and engage affected departments. There is currently an endeavour to reform the monitoring and evaluation system starting with effective monitoring of infrastructure programmes and the state of the nation address. Thank you, Chair.

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Thank you, House Chair. Let me also express my appreciation to the manner in which the hon Minister gave the comprehensive response to the question posed. The thrust of what the hon Minister said illustrates the commitment to forge the solid and seamless synergy with all government departments, entities and social partners also including the local government sphere with a view to ensure that plans are aligned to strategies and objectives. The question that I want

to put is, hon Minister, when do we envisage to have the integrated development planning framework Bill finalised? Kindly update the House in terms of what the thrust of that integrated development planning framework Bill are. Thank you, hon House Chair.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, can he please repeat the last sentence.

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: What is the objective of the integrated development planning framework Bill, and when do we envisage to have it finalised? Thank you.


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Currently, as we speak we have a monitoring and evaluation, M and E, system that speaks in a more focused manner to the national and provinces. I have already spoken about what I expect as the local government management improvement model is based on a proactive approach and support of the objectives over achieving a responsive, accruable, effective and efficient developmental system. I have already said that in terms of the government wide integrated system it is what we are working on in a more digital way. Until we put

this together we are going to be able to give a more pronounced and a more seamless and a clearer reporting in this area. As I have already said the tools we are using now to close that gap until that integrated system in a digitise way is in place. We have a National Development Plan to actualise its implementation. We are using the Medium-Term Strategy Framework as one tool. We use the frontline services delivery monitoring system. Lastly, we also use monitoring the Sona commitments of the President. They close the gap of the absence of the integrated system. Of course they don’t fully replace its efficiency. Thank very much.

Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, we appreciate your attendance here, and I thank you very much for coming.
Minister, many of the laws and regulations that are passed by your Cabinet have unintended consequences. I don’t think anyone can see into the future and see all the outcomes of the laws that are passed. I would like to focus on the moratorium that was placed on the evictions during the COVID-19 state of disaster. It was well intended to prevent people from being unfairly evicted, but it also gave opportunity to land invaders to manipulate the regulations and move with impunity. Now, two years later we have thousands of shacks and even broken mortar structures that are being built and there it is

a demand on municipalities to provide services to these locations that have been built. The Jackson’s Drift settlement in Eikenhof is one such settlement. Nevermind an early warning system that seems as if you haven’t got an early warning system. Minister, what is the plan to help municipalities to deal with these unplanned, unserviced and resultantly unhygienic settlements that have been brought about by bad regulations? How does Cabinet intends rolling back these illegal land invasions which were protected by yourselves?
Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon member. I guess from you own words you are acknowledging the fact that the circumstances of COVID-19 dictated unorthodox means or unorthodox measures to deal with that situation amongst others trying to put a halt to evictions so as to be able to manage the biggest threat of the time, which is transmissions.
Indeed, there could have been unorthodox measures leading to unintended consequences, something you are correct to deal with. I am sure you will remember that even before COVID-19 our country was faced with the challenge of illegal invasions which has serious implications of service delivery.

Our view is that the long-term sustainable solution is to implement the law. But whilst you implement the law you have to implement it in line with its prescripts. For instance, if people ... as you know the history of our country is confronted with dispossession and displacement. Post-94 people were up in arms demanding that which is actually due to them. You have justified anger and desperation. At the same time, we have committed ourselves that our transformation is going to be a legal one. The combination of these two is not an easy job. However, we are committed to ensure that law is implemented but at the same time you will not ignore people who find themselves in an open space, who need water, who need sanitation and so on. In other words, it is livelihoods and lives at the same time. So, we are trying to balance that. But the sustainable way is to make sure that we implement our laws.

I may use one example, Chair. As we are looking at the floods in KwaZuli-Natal, one goes to Beit Bridge where they were able to show us in the hinterlands of the railway infrastructure.
Our informal settlements invade the railway lines and remove the vegetation which creates erosion. By so doing it undermines the functionality of the railway system which is key in delivering a lot of key strategic goods to the cost

where they are supposed to be sold somewhere so that our economy can improve. In other words, it is a multiplicity of issues that we are trying to do. It’s quite a long way, but something has to be done about it.


Man B T MATHEVULA: Mutshamaxitulu, ndza khensa.


Minister, the public policy implementation in South Africa is faced with countless problems and challenges which have resulted in the public policy not yielding the expected results as stated in the public policy directive of a set public policy document. Will the warning system also detect the challenges faced across provinces such as noncompliance of the public policy, lack of knowledge, skills, experience and expertise in local governments? If not, why not; if so, please provide details. Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon member. The Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech this year spoke very strongly about the state of local governments. We are therefore not surprised by the interventions that are taking place in municipalities like Enoch Mgijima Local Municipality

in Queenstown, Mangaung and a number of municipalities. It is an acknowledgement of the state of the capacity of local government and its manifestations. You have heard the Minister. The Minister had said one of the problems we have is the skills, resources and to some degree he also referred to the political leadership of those municipalities. All those combined constitute the capacity limitations which if not resolved we are not going to be able to deal with the issues that you are speaking about. What I am saying is that there is an intervention in that regard. It has to be improved at all material times. We assess all interventions and continue to improve them where they prove to be weak. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank hon Chair. Hon Minister, according to the Jornals.co.za the challenges with policy implementation are among others, lack of resources, inadequate skills or training, inadequate staffing of personnel and the slow response time of supplies. Minister, it is welcomed that there is an early warning system to some extent, but I want to know, what is done to address the issue of incompetence and inadequate staff in this regard? It is of no use that we have early warning systems that tell us where the problems are with implementation but we don’t address the issues that the

policies are not implemented as a result of staff. Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon member. I think the biggest challenge is to deal with issues of leadership. Generally, we all agree upon that. Why is this critical? From my experience as a mayor in a municipality, we didn’t have all the skills required. Some of you will remember on record that our municipality at some stage, I think it was 2015 if not 2014, was declared the best run municipality. It is not because we had all the skills we wanted, but it was because leadership was provided in a more consistent and a more sustained way. When I say this I sometimes use laboratories in the rural communities. A lot of best scientists come from the rural communities where there are no laboratory infrastructures. It is because of the discipline and the environment - properly led institutions. They say where there is a will there is always a way. We are focussing on turning around leadership even in more than dry skills.
That’s what we are looking at now.

Two days ago the entire Cabinet involving premiers, the Premier of the Western Cape, the Premier of Gauteng and a number of premiers were there. This is the matter that is

being focussed on now. In two weeks’ time we are revisiting that discussions so that we can come out with the way forward to deal exactly with the issues that you have just raised.
Thank you, hon member.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Before we proceed, as the NCOP we would like to acknowledge a graduate trainee to the NCOP, Ms Nikita. We are trying our little that we can in terms of capacity development. Nikita, may you please raise your hand so that we can see you in front.

We are not just asking the questions to the Ministers in terms of skills development, but we are trying to lead by example under the leadership of the Chair and the Deputy Chair.

Question 34:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you hon Chair. The key actions by the DPME, Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, include monitoring the disbursements of funds, the use of funds, implementation of key intervention and to establish the extends which the desired results are met in line with the three phase approach announced by the President.

At the onset of the flood disaster, DPME provided guidance and support to affected provinces and municipalities to reprioritise and allocate funding to implement the planned flood disaster intervention.

In collaboration with National Treasury, DPMA support offices of the premier in KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, Northern Cape and North West on the revision of annual performance plans and adjustments to 2022/23 budget allocation to incorporate the impact of the disaster. In other words, the revision of this performance plan was to adjust because of the impact the disaster would have caused.

DPME also intensified its monitoring and reporting which was to identify grid logs and bottlenecks and the disbursements of funds as well as the delivery of the interventions.

During the monitoring process, DPME observed that funding request was slow due to the delays in completing assessments and verification of damages that needed to be done before funding applications could be submitted.

A similar observation was noted by the National Treasury in its support to the oversight committee on national state of

disaster on the impact of severe weather events and the parliamentary Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Flood Disasters Relief and recovery established flood disaster management coordination structure

Although National Treasury on 1 August 2022 reported that the momentum has picked up concerning funding applications to the various funding streams. They are processing approval and release of funding. There were concerns about the pace of spending the allocation even when those processes are improved.

The requirement of real time audit has added to the time frames needed to finalise procurement of various interventions.

DPME monitoring reports were used to engage government departments and entities such as National Disaster Management Centre and the National Treasury to identify and implement actions to address bottlenecks.

Furthermore, DPME worked with the provincial departments, municipalities and National Treasury to develop alternative strategies to address the bottlenecks. Going forward, DPME

will continue monitoring both disbursements and implementation and make the evidence available and continue to engage the department, municipalities and National Treasury to increase the pace of disbursements and delivery.

Other initiatives that will be monitored and reported on are the recommendation by the forum of directors general meeting that the disaster management system be overhauled.

Recommendation through the national disaster management so that all provinces that are affected are requested to present to NJFFC their consolidated information on the funding application they’ve submitted and or intend to submit highlighting specific challenges hampering submissions of such applications and the nature of support required.

This will enable identification of relevant capacity to provide support where required. The provinces are expected to present detailed reports listing specific projects and what kind of expenditure have been utilised or plan to be utilised. Thank you hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Brauteseth is right at the back. Can we have that microphone at the back? On KZN’s side on the last row at the back?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, these systems no longer indicate where you must sit. And frankly, I think it’s a bit childish that we as adults cannot turn our own microphones on. I really think it’s ridiculous.

Chairperson, thank you very much nevertheless. Welcome Nikita, would you like to answer the question? [Laughter.] I am just joking.

Hon Minister Gungubele, thank you very much for being here with us today and thank you very much for your response to the question.

Minister, I speak as a member of the Ad Hoc Committee on Floods and so this is not grand standing or taking a shot, it is a great concern for the people of KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, North West that are really struggling at the moment.

You said that you’ve been monitoring the disbursements of funds and the use of the funds and identifying grid logs. It

would be great if you could give us an idea if you are indeed doing that. How much have funds have been disbursed and what are they being used for?

What also concerns me is that you also identified grid logs and that the funding is proceeding very slowly. It’s very concerning that only on the 1st of August you picked that up. We should have been picking up the funding was moving very slowly from early April or May and had urgent intervention at that point to ensure that funding floats.

Myself along with members, the House Chair today, hon Nyambi and hon Rayi were in Johannesburg on the 1st of July and we were told there by government officials that they received literally only a handful of applications and I literally said to him, you mean a handful and he returned the phrase and said no, a handful. That is extremely concerning

So my question is, can you give us some insight in terms of the flow of funding at the moment, what it is being used for, we have not had any AG, Auditor General, reports yet. And then, can you also advise the revised disaster management plan, obviously it will fall very much within your mandate.

When do you think we can look at having a new national revised disaster management plan? Thank you Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you hon member, you asked me about the financial data and the last time I came across that, I’m trying to ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, to assist so that you can assist the House, the rules are clear not unless if you do not have something that has to do with statistics, you will have to provide in writing but if it is a general question you can deal with the relevant question so that the House can be assisted in terms of the nature of the stats of the details.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much. It is going to be very difficult to give you the specific figures but all we can tell you is that the last time I looked at it not so long ago, it could be around R2 billion but we need to give details of how that has been done.

The other question you asked if you may repeat it is on the national disaster plan, I did not actually hear the question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Brauteseth, the lighter part of your question?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: I think the House Chair is having fun with me today. Minister, I think that we are all aware and I’ve certainly indicated this in the joint debate in the Good Hope Chamber. This is not going to be the last one. Climate change means we are going to have storms like this again perhaps not in 20 years’ time but maybe in two, three, four, five years’ time. So, I am asking, you mentioned that you are working on a revised disaster management plan, can you give us an idea of when that might be in place because I think we may need it sooner rather than later due to be ready for this sort of thing? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you hon member. I’m always careful of pronouncing your surname, it’s not very easy.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Brauteseth. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, we have all accepted that our disaster capacity lives much to be designed. The President said it himself. For instance, if you look at

the time it took to give an interim assessment on the damage for an interim intervention to a permanent assessment to permanent plans to deal with the situation.

Normally it took a couple of weeks to come to that. Ideally when the disaster management system works the interim assessment needs to take days, a week is too long because there normally damages that need immediate intervention.

If you go for instance to industrial areas in eThekwini on what happened to Toyota and the disconnection in energy. Some of those issues were supposed to have been assessed with immediate effect. To prevent irreparable damage, you intervene timely and as far as that part is concerned, we have agreed that our national disaster management system needs a significant revision bordering on overhaul.

I discussed this matter last night if not this morning with the Minister of Cogta. We discussed it a month ago and agreed that DPME must immediately lead a system for overhauling that exactly in the view of what you have said that the climate change is here to stay with us.

The vulnerability of the placement of our people in particular that were exposed in KZN, we urgently need to be in a position even before completing the required capacity. There should be interim measure with regard to how we deal with the situation.

But to say by when, my biggest prayer would be as soon as possible. If it was possible I would say this year but I am very weary timelines until we put together an analysis. We need a scientific complete analysis of the problem so that we have a clear plan. Whilst we have those two, one is able to say in five months’ time or three months’ time but I want to argue as soon as possible. It’s a matter that cannot wait.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are safe to call

him hon T.J so that you don’t struggle. So hon T.J is fine.

Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Thanks House Chairperson. Hon Minister, according to media reports, it appears that central to the delays is the costing of the required projects by the municipalities and the provinces to the National Treasury. If this is true, has the department considered advising the National Treasury and other affected national departments sector to deploy teams to the affected municipalities to

assist with the costing and other related financial management issues as part of the fast tracking of the rollout funds?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thanks hon member. That’s a logical requirement because one of the challenges is that is actually a correct assessment that it has been a struggle costing the damage in some areas not all of them.

The Minister of Finance and his team having actually found that and the monitoring and evaluation having found that. We have been trying to interact with the affected institutions to do the best we can assist in that regard with treasury being involved.

For instance, if you listen to my response, I’m saying one of the things that DPME did immediately this disaster caused to this damage was that it clearly meant unplanned resources being required against the budgeted resources which is not anticipate a disaster.

DPME has gone in again to assist various spheres, be it local and provincial to actually adjust their performance plans to make sure that they take into account the unplanned resource requirement.

But in short yes, we have tried our best. I’m very much convinced that a lot still needs to be done in assisting them. The fact that there has been an improvement now, it is results of an attempt to assist there is still a lot of ... [Inaudible.] ... because at the end of the day no matter how much assistance you provide, if the minimum capacity to take advantage of that assistance is not yet there, there will still be a gap. But that exercise has been carried.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you House Chair. Hon Minister, what commitments for consequence management will be undertaken to ensure that these funds are not misappropriated and ensure that the funds are released to help those affected by this disaster reach their intended recipients? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much hon member. That is quite a critical question. Hon members will remember that the President announced AG coming in timeously, immediate interventions were taking place so that the real time auditing is done. Indeed, that is ongoing. What does it mean? It means that AG sits with Treasury on regular basis to be advised on the key transactions that need to be followed.

Normally preceding that, they would have refreshed their minds for a common understanding on the principles to follow.
Remember this is a disaster situation and it means adapting the procedures to actually approve funding. It means things being done quicker and AG together with Treasury have organised a system that ensures that no matter what speed that approval is done, there’s real time auditing to check if transactions have followed the normal procedures.

You will realise that some have delayed in making applications because they know it has to go through that and some have said there is a slow approval but not all of them are victims of slow approval, some of them it’s because there’s a reluctance to follow the real time auditing which is in the line of side between Treasury and AG.

So, those are interventions and we have not yet been briefed about any alarming developments. We are watching the space. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Lehihi is right at the corner on the side of Limpopo at the end. Yes. Have the microphone closer to you.

Ms S B LEHIHI: Thank you. Chairperson, it has been over four months since the devastating floods and four months since the lives of thousands of homeless victims have deteriorated as they are still housed in halls in areas like Verulam and Stanger.

As the provincial and national government go back and fought with the process of accessing the R1 billion that was promised to assist floods victims in KwaZulu-Natal, Minister, when will the R1 billion relief fund which was promised be made available to the people of KZN and who is going to assist eThekwini in accessing relief? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much hon member. We have explained the R1 billion issue several times that it is not R1 billion exclusively for KwaZulu-Natal. That amount is always there for immediate intervention and the processes that are followed have been explained that every province every year has emergency allocation of this kind so that if it occurs they first use what is available at their disposal and if what is at their disposal has been stretched, they are able to access that R1 billion through human settlements. Part of it is in the Human Settlements and part of it is in Cogta and together it makes that billion.

As I have already said to you, the recent statistics I had, close to two if not more than R2 billion that has been released because the R1 billion is for interim. There is damage which is not budgeted for and you have to then start allocating even beyond that R1 billion. There is that amount that are will actually be provided. Thank you very much.

Question 44:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Yes, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has continued to engage with various stakeholders in the broader society to find ways to collaborate in efforts to strengthen planning, monitoring, and evaluation. Various platforms have been created for this to happen. Key engagement includes the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation’s active engagement as a member of collaboration on various activities with the SA Monitoring and Evaluation Association, Samea.

Among the 2022-23 activities is the cohosting of the Samea Conference to be held in September 2022. And the development of the SA Evaluation Evidence Map which is intended to serve as a public knowledge resource on evaluation. The other interface involves the engagement with civil society stakeholders within the context of the implementation and

monitoring of the National Anti-Corruption Strategy, Nacs. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation recently engaged with Business Unity South Africa to explore collaborations on unlocking bottlenecks in the economy and develop a toolkit for information sharing. The department has also led similar engagements between the director-generals in the economic cluster and the Black Business Council. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has facilitated engagement between various government departments to devise a strategy for rural development. This includes workshops attended by Minister Didiza and various government departments. The National House of Traditional Leaders has also been part of these processes.

In the wake of the recent flood disaster in KwaZulu-Natal, The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation met with the Durban Chamber of Commerce as a way to get business views on the endeavours to improve the government’s response to the disaster. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has similarly had an engagement with the United Nations South Africa, specifically the United Nations Development Programme, UNDP, to benchmark best practices from other countries on their responses to disaster and how they monitor disaster and relief efforts.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has actually partnered with research institutions such as the National Research Foundation, Government Technical Advisory Centre, GTAC, and higher education institutions to prepare for the SA COVID-19 Country Report which records the measures and intervention South Africa took to combat the spread of the virus.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has consulted with civil society representatives and experts on planning policy and is working with various experts on planning methodologies such as modelling, foresight and scenario planning. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation co-ordinates, monitors and reports on the implementation of the National Food and Nutrition Security Plan 2018-2023. This work entails tracking interventions implemented by 10 national government departments, provinces as well as civil society organisations in the country, such as the SA Civil Society for Women’s, Adolescents’ and Children's Health. These interventions are aimed at optimising food security and good nutrition. The other issue is the colloquium that is annually held. Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The first follow-up is from Mama, hon Bebee.

Ms L C BEBEE: Aww, Baba! I love you, Baba.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I love you more.


Nk L C BEBEE: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Baba, ngethuba onginikeza lona, ngiphinde ngibonge futhi uNgqongqoshe womnyango, Baba, ukuthi ukwazile ukuthi uphendule kahle umbuzo wami ukuthi ngempela umnyango wakho uyakwazi ukuthi usebenze nezinhlaka ezehlukene ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sihlangabezane nokuthi sithuthukise omasipala bethu. Kodwa umbuzo wami ngizowubuza ngalolu limi lontaba kayikhonjwa ngoba ngifuna ukuthi ubaphendule kahle, Baba, ukuthi bezwe ukuthi umnyango wakho usebenza kanjani.


My question is, has the department, in collaboration with the sector departments, considered piloting a structured partnership, especially with the built engineering and water resource management sector to address some of the pertinent challenges that are facing our municipalities?


Ngiyabonga, Baba, Mphathiswa weNdlu.


Mr D R RYDER: House Chairperson, on a point of order: There is no interpretation coming through. So if you can just check what is the problem.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, we will attend to it so that they attend to it. Hon Minister?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Sorry, hon member, you are referring to partnering with the engineering sector? Okay ... sector. Oh! That is fine. Well, one of the important challenges in the results-based management approach, which others prefer to refer to it as the logic framework, for it to be fruitfully and productively done, you need to work with structures, like the one you have just spoken about because when I was in Parliament, there is an oversight model which Parliament is supposed to follow when doing oversight. It is cyclical in nature. It has got beams, which are called budget information metrics and budget oversight model. And the part I like is the toolkit part.

That toolkit part requires the skills you have just spoken about because what does it do? It assists wherever there are commitments to produce certain outputs. It trains all of us, those who are doing oversight, to be able to analyse that which is projected or committed to be done, whether it makes sense in terms of money committed, whether it makes sense in terms of the timeframe also committed, because there are those technical requirements. It calls strongly not just to introduce quality leaders in the municipality, but also introduce people with those skills because all these monitoring and evaluation processes for them to be effectively done, you need all the aspects of the skills required for that exercise. In other words, what I want to say, is indeed we are in agreement with that. It is one of the efforts that are being pursued.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, hon Minister, this is a very broad subject and I think that is to our advantage. You just mentioned that the support that is given from other entities, and engineers, we are looking at leadership in municipalities. We are sitting with a situation in the JB Marks Municipality where construction of a disaster centre was started. Millions of rand were spent, engineers advised the municipality to stop the construction because of flaws of the contractor that was

appointed. And then an administrator was appointed under section 139, and he then basically forced the whole process to proceed. At the end of the day, that disaster centre has not been finalised yet. There are a lot of questions about money spent in that regard.

Minister, my question is, in situations like that, where you approach the provincial legislature and you ask them to intervene and to give a closeout report of the administrator and that is not given after requesting it time and time again from the premier, what is the next step to be taken to see to it that there is accountability and that the oversight role is played sufficiently? Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, none of you is trying to make my day easy. It is fine. I am at work. I think what is agreed is that in the few days where the President convened all spheres to look at that matter, not specifically JB Marks, but to look at this matter of ineffective interventions that what are the underlying reasons that interventions are not effective?

One of the things that have been actually saying there is one, the delay, the time it takes to intervene. By the time you

intervene, the damage is done. Two, even time we intervene, we intervene in a manner that is unaccountable. What do I mean by this? There is no system of reporting how the intervention itself is performing. Thirdly, sometimes even the people we deploy do not, what to call, have the skills that befit the situation.

One of the strong proposals in the past two days is that in South Africa we have to improve the accountability system. Sometimes I usually say, hon Chair, in that regard, there are things that we should not politicise at all. Issues like a system of accountability. That is not an ideological issue. It is an issue of making sure that people report the expenditure of the money they are using. There are no marks there, there are no angels. There is no church It is just checking whether monies are spent putting in place systems of accountability.
There is nothing ideological in that matter. It is making sure that there is that accountability. One of the problems, is we put ideology and political partisanship on matters ... countries that are successful, they list issues that all parties must agree upon ... that on the meaningfulness of the budget, quality expenditure, efficiency, appointing skilled people, making sure that you have got quality institutions. In countries where there is unity amongst parties in as far as

those elements are concerned, those countries are very successful.

Sometimes in our country, I find ourselves with think there is a different ideology to check how much money has been spent.
That thing has got nothing to do with the ideology. If you are going to buy a Lifebuoy to check whether it is R20 or not. It is not ideological; it is just a mathematical thing. But sometimes we spend time debating that matter as if it is an ideological method. One of the huge challenges our country is confronted with is that let us list issues that were across the board we will work together on. And then we have our political views over and above that. But at least that they say this baseline, all parties must work together.

Those issues that you have spoken about because even if the skills were weak if the accountability system is functional, the performance of those poor skills could be easily detected if there is collaboration in that area and the elements that I have spoken about. So those are some of the things in the two days that have been actually identified as underlying reasons as to why that J B Marks situation that you are talking about. Of course, the President said within two or three weeks, I think, we will be sitting down to take that matter to a

conclusion so that we really now intervene and talk less about these issues. Thanks, hon member.

Ms S B LEHIHI: Chairperson, Minister, past efforts at capacity-building have been disappointing as the existence of the lack of capacity found in the different sectors stands as one of the main constraints to achieving government policy in order to ensure that outcomes are met in a timeous manner.
Which timeframe has been put in place to strengthen planning, monitoring, and evaluation of government policy? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: As I am talking to you now, hon member, our teams in those spaces ... one of the things we are trying to improve is the physical, what you call, presence because, at risk of being controversial here, there are municipalities that have got clean audit yet service delivery. is not in line with that. It is one of the matters we raised with the Auditor-General. And it seems as if some of us are learning skills of misleading oversight to, what to call, institutions. That is why the issue of physical inspection becomes critical. And two, protecting the internal auditors with regard to their autonomy. The reason in various departments you have got internal auditors is to make sure that before the Auditor-General comes, your auditors continue

to do two things; they do financial audit and performance audit.

At the risk of boring you, repeating where I came from. One of the things we did was to make sure that when line function departments report, you asked the internal auditor to go and audit the same performance. It happened, hon members, there was always a gap between what the internal auditors find as performance results against what the line function department reports.

And over years we told the line function departments unless you meet the levels of the outcomes of the financial audit, which is done by internal auditors, we are not going to recognise your performance and over years, the Auditor-General was able to observe that our clean audit was consistent with the service, what you call, service delivery. I hope it goes somewhere to respond to your question. Thanks, House Chair.

Mr J J LONDT: Good day, hon House Chair, and good afternoon, hon Minister, Minister, all this talk of planning and monitoring and evaluation sometimes is a farce because after all, we all know that this government is rich on talk but poverty-stricken on implementation. And like you said

yourself, you deploy people that do not always have the skillset, and that is your own words, so maybe that is where the problem starts the deployment of unskilled people should not be used in our municipalities.

Now you also say that clean audits, it is not always, if you get a clean audit, you get clean or effective service delivery. However, there is a trend of municipalities, and departments that have better audit outcomes, generally delivering better services across the country. There are always exceptions to the rule. So should you not just simply start with the Auditor-General reports and make sure in those municipalities where you have deployed unskilled and unqualified people, you stop that practice immediately and make the changes that are required to improve those municipalities for the betterment of those citizens?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon member, at the risk of being misunderstood and I do not think you misunderstood me, generally where there are clean audits is good service delivery. Maybe it is important to make that point. But there are exceptional instances where people have had a clean audit not when the service delivery is attended to, there is a discrepancy. It is a gap that must be closed.

What do we do with unqualified people? Let us stop deploying them, and that is a straightforward answer. I usually say to
... well you can have a political branch led by whether the ANC, DA or whoever, hon Chair, if you deploy somebody in local government because he or she happens to be the chair of your branch, the problem with the truth of delivering is that the fact that I am a chair of a branch or of a zone, whether I am DA, the ANC, it does not necessarily give me the skills required to be a civil engineer.

We have done that risk at times where we have deployed people because of their political positions and where deliver requires civil engineering, it is only a civil engineer who can deliver there. And the least you can do, even if ... although strongly now, which I also support, the move to have people having particular qualifications even when deployed as politicians is becoming very strong. Because if you go to municipalities and look at the documents that are read there
... remember when you are a political principal, it means you were an authority over technical people who are reporting to you, the performance of the technical thing which you do not understand but you have got the authority over them.

So that is why there is a need for a balance between the political office ... If you do not have this qualification, as an honest politician, the least you can do is to deploy in your office the people who are technically capable so that when you assess the technical work you take informed decisions. What is a problem being that if I have got my standard three and I come and ask an engineer to come and give a briefing to me when I have got authority over the engineer, what you are putting at risk is the country and the people who are awaiting those services? It is against that articulation, hon member, I am saying, when do we stop deploying people who are unqualified? We will stop now. Thanks.

Question 33:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I get water hon Chair ...


... iyenyuka le ndlela.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): My brother, water here please.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much ...


... iyenyuka le ndlela. [Kwahlekwa.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you hon Labuschagne. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME which has the government’s wide mandate for planning, monitoring and evaluation supports all spheres of government with capacity development. Several interventions were undertaken to support building public sector monitoring capacity. To this end, the following public sector monitoring interventions were implemented:

Local government management improvement model: A tool being used to support and improve the performance of municipalities focusing on management practices. Training has been provided to 146 municipalities including metros across the eight provinces except for the Western Cape. They are trained on how to use the tool and have completed the assessments.

Development of Improvement Plans: Development of improvement plans based on the municipal assessment that identifies a priority area that requires significant improvement and

support. Since 2017, there are 25 improvement plans approved by municipal managers and monitored by the DPME on a quarterly basis. On the frontline monitoring, it is one that enables municipalities to identify challenges that need addressing.
Improvement plans are then developed in consultation with the relevant stakeholders to address these issues. The current visit underway is on ideal clinics and safe schools.

Capacity building training is another element. The DPME in 2021 co-hosted a training course on evidence-based policy- making and implementation for local government which was attended by 20 municipalities. In the same year, the DPME implemented specific activities to build capacity for evaluations of targeted sectors and local government participation in these interventions.

During this financial year, a focus will be on training on the theory of change in eight metros in order to help strengthen their capacity, to inform future planning for capacity building. The DPME will later this year, conduct a survey to assess evaluation capacity needs of municipalities. The Minister and the Deputy Ministers have been supporting local government through their role as District Development Model champions. The current work is related to the development of

refinement, of plans which contribute to planning and stakeholder management capacity within the district municipality and municipalities. Thank you hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you hon Minister. The first follow up question is from hon Zandamela who is on the virtual platform. Hon Zandamela! Hon Zandamela!

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you hon Chair ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, it is connected.

It’s there. Hon Zandamela, can you unmute yourself please.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: I am unmuted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, ask your question. Hon Zandamela can you ask your question.

An HON MEMBER: Chair, if he struggles with the technology, can we please take the question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay! Hon Zandamela, we are passing you. We will go to ... [Interjections.]

Mr T APLENI: Chair, I am sorry. Hon Zandamela is struggling with the network, not the technology. That gut must stop saying things he does not know. He is struggling with the network.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No problem, hon Apleni you can assist if you have the follow-up question on behalf of hon Zandamela. Hon Apleni!

Mr T APLENI: I am sorry Chair; I don’t have the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, let’s move. Let’s

go to hon Sileku. Hon Sileku on the virtual platform!

Mr I M SILEKU: Hon Chair, can you hear me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, we can hear you properly. Order members!

Mr I M SILEKU: Apologies for the camera. I am struggling with the network and ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Members, let’s have order so that the Minister can get the question. Can you continue hon Sileku.

Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you Chair. Firstly, let me greet the hair, the Minister and all the members. Minister, I have been listening to you attentively answering in terms of the state all the municipalities and what needs to be done. I would just like to go back to what the President of the country has said about the state of local municipalities in his capacity as the president of the ANC that, since the local government elections in 2021, there has been more municipalities that need intervention in terms of section 139 and unfortunately it is ANC-led municipalities.

Minister, the core function of your department is to plan, monitor and evaluate. Despite all the planning, monitoring and evaluation in the world, municipalities in South Africa still fall apart like a pack of cards in a gentle breeze. Is it because your department is simply tolerated and largely ignored, or is it simply because under the grip of the ANC corruption, these municipalities cannot be saved?

Also listening to what you have also been saying that we need to work together, put politics aside and put our residents and the country before. Minister, is it not time that, you, your department and your cadres ... [Interjections] ... spend serious time with the DA and learn real governance lessons from the 40 municipalities which we govern well in South Africa and all the statistics and the Auditor-General’s report can confirm that. thank you very much.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I did not hear the last part hon ... [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No he was asking that, is it not the time for all the other municipalities to go and learn from the 40 municipalities that are being run by the DA. That is the essence of his question Minister.

Mr T APLENI: Including him as the Minister. Thank you very much. [Laughter]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, if he thought that he was dislodging me, benchmarking is a practise. Good work, it does not matter who does it, is always important to learn.
Well, if it makes you feel good by labelling the DA, that is

another question. But, the principle is that, benchmarking should always be welcome. I want to repeat this, you must go and check your record because I thought maybe you need to respond directly.

When we were running Ekurhuleni at some stage, it was declared. Johannesburg also in terms of financial management. Those municipalities were run by the ANC. You must go and check international records for that where it was said, these were the best run municipalities. You will check your records. It is not the ANC that said that, it is the international institutions.

The point I am making is that, I insist let us not attach political labels in these matters. Let’s discuss capacity that is necessary. And I am saying, we can’t fight benchmarking.
Hon Chair, if there is a municipality of the ANC badly run and next door there is the DA, it is not the DA that matters, it is the best way with which the next door municipality is being run. In other words, the tool of improving our people cannot be ignored because it is being used by a particular person.
And some of you by the way, I can tell you, a lot of your top managers you have taken them from the ANC. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you Minister.

An HON MEMBER: No, they want a lot of money.

Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Zandamela! Hon Zandamela!

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you House Chair, everything just went off here. Maybe the Minister can assist also with regard to this load shedding affecting us when we are in Parliament. Chair, my question to the Minister would be, we know for the fact that when it comes to capacity, there are some of the managers who were for some reasons maybe expelled from a municipality, but are being recycled in the system to go and be a manager in another municipality. What is the department doing with regards to that because we can’t recycle corrupt capacity in the system? Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, that is Zandamela.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Okay ...[Laughter] ... Thank you hon Zandamela, I think I like the surname. I am sure you would have heard a few days ago just on the energy, the President announced the intervention plan which is widely supported across the country by different sectors, technical institutions and so on. The ball has been thrown back to our court as government to implement that plan. Everyone now says, okay that plan is right, implement it.

If we come to the recycling of managers, hon Zandamela and other members might know that, there has been a challenge of implementing Special Investigating Unit, SIU findings and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa demanded that we report from the Presidency on a monthly basis. That system has actually been our intervention in that area as we make sure that the SIU findings are implemented, we have discovered a lot of weaknesses in our system. In some of them, someone would be fired from this department and find himself working in another department. You are dealing with charges of corruption in this department; you get hired in some department.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is actually studying that very close, to make sure that we are

able to detect those defects because when we do the monitoring and evaluation system, the findings are always submitted to relevant departments for improvement.

Going forward, one of the things that we are going to use is an improved system and ensuring that the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA is capacitated to assist with the system of ensuring that, there is no recycling of people who have messed up somewhere else. All I am saying hon Zandamela is that, it needs a system and it needs also us improving even the technology that we use to actually detect those issues. I do agree with you, such experience has occurred, and that experience needs to be stopped. Thank you very much.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, the local government sphere comprises of different needs by communities. I would like to know, how is your department able to monitor and assess the specific needs by communities. How is the department’s approach to adapted to suit capacity development within local government spheres especially in relation to traditional leadership? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think that your follow up question is in line with Question 1, which I was trying to answer that, we are working with a lot of tools to do exactly what you are saying. Development of improvement plans, Local Government Management Improvement Model and also frontline monitoring. We also spoke about capacity building training, where we say we cost a training course of evidence-based policy-making and implementation for local government, which was attended by 20 municipalities and so on.

There is an area where we also say to you we speak about and where we are talking about stakeholders, how we involved traditional leaders in making sure that our interventions are informed by the lived experience of the people for whom those services are meant. Once we have done that, when we have findings that actually indicate the uniqueness of different situations with regards to the developmental needs. Of course, these interventions that I have articulated here, assist therefore to capacitate relevant operatives be they local, province or even national to actually be geared to respond to the unique needs of those various communities.

One of the things we have just re-established is the National Planning Commission, which is beginning to demonstrate that it

is alive. I am sure you must have head them responding to the energy crisis, because the National Planning Commission comprises of sorts of different experts who are given autonomy to express their views about the state of the country, without fear or favour. I am sure when you heard them critiquing government, there is nothing that fell. Thank you.

Ms M L MOSHODI: Thank you very much hon House Chair and thank you hon Minister for your response. Hon Minister, I am sure you will agree that if planning is ... [Inaudible] ...from the beginning, to expect monitoring and evaluation to get if right is a pipe dream. More often, at the heart of the challenge of development and service delivery at local government level is poor planning. Sometimes not realistic or aligned with the requisite ...[Inaudible] ... and financial capital resources, thus raising false expectations to our people.

My question hon Minister is: In this light, has the department and in collaborations with other sector departments, considered partnership with knowledge communities in different critical scarce skills areas like build engineering, water resources, infrastructure development and management and spatial development planning to assist municipalities in planning. Thank you very much hon Chair and hon Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you. I am trying to just repeat something that I said. Alright, maybe let’s start with what the hon member is raising, the relationship between useful monitoring, evaluation and proper planning and the need to whether we do make use of sectors that have got available skill to improve that linkage. Well, I think I cannot say it better than how you have just said it hon member. Usually there is a ... I don’t know which verse in the Bible that says, “You want to reap where, you didn’t sow”. So to expect to monitor and evaluate a plan which is not measurable and realistic, is also the waste of time of monitoring and evaluation.

Those are some of the things which we are looking at, we are already discussing, even repositioning the DPME itself to actually place it in a place where, amongst other things is actually working with different even with DPME. One of the things one is thinking about is that, has the time not come for instance, for DPME to acquire some autonomy so that in the amassing of skills and reporting of performance, there is no fear that a Minister may not be happy. When the Auditor- General reports, they do not care who is going to say what.
Once they finish their work, I am sure you know that, they just report. But a department like ours, if it is located in

the manner it is, it is becoming clear that sometimes those who are not strong maybe like yourself or somebody else might be very careful in reporting whatever.

So, we are talking about repositioning DPME to look and to actually acquire the status of being the most reliable lens, through which the entire country follows the performance of the state. Amongst other things it is also to deal with what you are saying, so that DPME facilitates planning and DPME is able to pronounce whether plans are authentic or not, so that even before ... but there is a lot of work that has been done there. When I was still a member still in Parliament, we over the years have been able to convince even the Auditor-General not to come aftermath, but to assist in looking at performance plans and make some comments whether these plans do make sense. So in other words, that is the point we are attending to. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Maybe you have forgotten hon Minister, you are still a member. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I agree. I agree hon Chair.

Question 35:


Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has already been engaging with both the national Department of Human Settlements and the KwaZulu-Natal provincial Department of Human Settlements to resolve some of the binding constraints in the provision of temporary residential units, in the different areas in KwaZulu-Natal province. Engagements were based largely on the finance when the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation-led join oversight visit when the director-general of the Department of Human Settlements on 23 and 24 May 2022 and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation frontline monitoring visits in four districts from
27 to 30 June 2022 which assessed progressed on the construction of temporary residential units, TRUs, in eight sites and provision of services in 14 mass care centres.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has noted that while the displaced families were provided with shelter at the mass care centres within days of the flood disaster there have been delays in the provisions of TRUs. The prolonged stay of people at the mass care centres has brought about new social challenges. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation share the findings of its monitoring activities with relevant authorities in order to facilitate

resolutions of identified challenges. Construction of TRUs is dependent on finalisation of procurement processes confirmation of viable land parcels for construction of TRUs and the provision of basic facilities such as water, families agreeing to relocate to TRUs sites despite them being further away from schools and work places profiling of beneficiaries to ensure that TRUs are provided to the right people. Some of the alternatives recommended by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation include requesting the private sector to assist with making land available, government to provide guarantee that TRUs sites will be phased out once permanent solutions for human settlements are found, provision of ... [Inaudible.] ... stock materials for repair of houses, and construction of TRUs in people’s original homes. These are some of the alternatives the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation proposed.

Latest data provided by KwaZulu-Natal Human Settlements indicates that construction has been completed for 736 of which 683 have been provided to households for occupation. This is in relation to the targeted 1 810 TRUs you can all see the gap. For instance, as a matter of fact, EThekwini completed to date 104, Harry Gwala 93, ILembe 243, Cetshwayo 40, uMgungundlovu 45, uMkhanyakude 40, Amajuba 50, uMzinyathi

50, UThukela 38. To avoid a situation where families would stay in mass care centres for much longer, the current pace of providing 50 TRUs per week needs to be tripled and drain locks resolved to finalise confirmation of land parcels or resettlement of communities that live in flood ... [Inaudible.] ... areas.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation will convene an urgent follow-up engagement with the Department of Human Settlements in KwaZulu-Natal and the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development to facilitate resolution of the identified drain locks and to fast track the delivery of human settlement interventions which not only enclosed TRUs, but also the provision of support for housing repairs to enable families to exit the mass care centre and get back to their homes. All the affected provinces, namely, KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, Northern Cape and North West have been requested to provide progress updates on the human settlement intervention to Natal Joint Flood Co-ordinating Committee to inform the decisions. Thank you, hon House Chair.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, thank you for that response. I think that you might not have all the figures at your disposal, because I’m obviously right now

looking down at a report from Human Settlements KwaZulu-Natal and the figure that is quite about Human Settlements KwaZulu- Natal is 4 983 homeless households, okay. You have just said that I think a figure of 736 TRUs built which leaves us on
4 247 that still need to be done. The procurement has been done for 1 180, but only 30% of those being provided. Therefore, in EThekwini, which the hon House Chair knows, is of great concern just because the mayor there and the deputy mayor have had actually to meet us in the most affected bridge. Only 65 TRUs have been built in EThekwini, I’m not sure if you are aware of that ... [Interjections.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): How many?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: 65. Therefore, the reason I’m raising this is that the face of this is the community halls. Now, I know that other members of the House who are on this committee with me will be horrified and I mean that to hear that I visited recently at Mountain View Community Hall in Verulam where, Minister, there are no less than 400 people residing there,
400. Now, those of us who want to visit with me should know that the mamas and the sisters are all packed everything on the side nice and neatly during the day and ... [Interjections.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): Sorry, hon House Chair, the name of the place.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: It’s Mountain View in Verulam which is just north of Durban. This hall is so full that there is no space to pack away the bedding. We were there at lunch time during the day and I can only imagine what that hall and it’s a normal community’s hall, Minister, it’s not some ... [Inaudible.] ... that you see something. I can only imagine what it looks like at night when they are 400 people there and this is the outcome. I welcome, Minister, the fact that you will accelerate. However, Minister, can I please ask with everything and every ... [Inaudible.] ... within your soul that you make sure that acceleration happens and put as much as possible pressure as you can on Department of Human Settlements. We have people living in the most of vulnerable conditions. The Mountain View Community Hall could actually qualify for SA Human Rights Commission care, instead of that. So, we really have to make rigid intervention.

However, the other really issue that I want to raise with you, Minister, is the cost of the TRUs. We hear different every single time we visited different community or a different municipality that give us a different figure on the TRUs.

Therefore, I’m very, very concerned and I’ve raised this all the way along that scheming is going along that certain amount allocated for TRUs and are being built at cheaper rate, at some standard rate and scheming is happening. What level of assurance can you give us today that you along with the Auditor-General, AG, are monitoring the cost of the TRUs and making sure that are built to speak and built to the right amount, and either on one hand that scheming is not happening and they have been built below speak or that we are paying a lot more for TRUs than we should actually paying? I think that quite some figure was R68 000. Therefore, Minister, what level of the assurance can you give us with regard to acceleration of the housing and also the costings that we don’t sit up with another personal protective equipment, PPE, disaster where people have gotten involved in corruption. Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): Thank you, hon member. It’s always difficult to debate numbers. There must be a wrong number, and I’m not going to say that is your number. The least we can do for credible reporting we must check where the discrepancy comes from. Remember, it depends sometimes how people count and others count the households, others count people in their numbers, it’s a matter that we

need to check. Therefore, I don’t want to debate that. All I want to share is the Mountain View situation that is totally unacceptable and there are other situations that were of similar nature when our director-general, DG, of the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation visited on the 23th and 24th. Those situations again don’t speak well about our disaster management system. They call for and you’ll understand why there’s this used to call for ... [Inaudible.]
... because what we are saying is that when a disaster capacity is in place some of us who have worked in municipalities, you know that disaster should be treated like a police squad, on daily basis police operated to check their readiness to combat disaster conventional all over they are supposed to be checked on regular basis if, indeed, they’re organised and ready and naturally anticipate even cultural issues if people in this area are displaced they end up finding themselves away from ... [Inaudible.] ... how do you manage those issues.

Again, dignity as you’ve already spoken about, how do you make sure that people are not congested in a manner that put their dignity actually at state. Acceleration, we have no choice, is a matter that we have got to follow-up. Even on the issue of cost discrepancy, the least we can deal with is that.

Remember, I said that the real time auditing by AG is on. We’ve not got the report yet that gives us alarm, but we must be able to ask them if the evidence of what you’ve just said, hon member, does pertain and then follow it and actually ask the DG to reassure the country in your words the reason why we have AG for that matter. Thank you.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, still with the TRUs obviously we visited the Deelpan area in the Tswaing Local Municipality in the North West province on the 30th of June this year as far as the Ad Hoc Committee on the Flood and the Disaster and we’ve viewed about two or three houses that were still standing in the water. We were told by the head of the department, HOD, that 300 houses TRUs needs to be built and the amount of funds that were available for that is R54,9 million. Now, if you do the equation that brings it down to R183 000 per unit, where the approved ceiling amount is R78 000 ... [Interjections.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): How much money they say is required?

Mr S F DU TOIT: The amount that is available is R54,9 million for the TRUs for the North West province in Deelpan less than

300 units. The cost per unit or amount per unit is R183 000.

Now, when we inquire about this and the HOD said that he will give the relevant documentation again when we have the meeting in Sandton. The same question was raised and we were again promised a report on the housing situation in Deelpan with regards to the TRUs, and up to now I haven’t received anything and according to my knowledge on our mailing list of the disaster group it doesn’t been yet circulated to the members.

My question, Minister, yes, will you commit to follow up on this and to see what the current situation is because on the 30th of June not one TRU was built?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): 30th of June?

Mr S F DU TOIT: Yes, this year. We went for oversight visit but we didn’t see one unit that was built. Now, it ... [Inaudible.] ... for disastrous, but funds were available for that as well. Therefore, if you could commit to follow-up and give us feedback it’d be appreciated please.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): The least we can do is to follow up. Thank you, hon House Chair. Thank you, hon member.

Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon House Chair, and thanks to the Minister. Minister, my question would be, the President with regard to financial accountability came up with the concept of the real time audit. I just want to find out whether we should not also have real time performance monitoring that will be happening on daily basis so that the delays and challenges that are faced by people, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal in what you call mass centres, can be addressed immediately, but also whether a capacity that isn’t the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation cannot also be sent down to provinces to assist in the provinces and the municipalities that are affected. Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): Real time, annual general meeting, AGM, real time monitoring, I think at the beginning is what we were trying to do. Remember the first visit there was together with the President, two days later the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation team was sent. Again, there are instances where you are not sure whether line function leaders understand the purpose of monitoring and evaluation, M&E, the same way anyone else is supposed to understand. I remember as a project I was going to visit north in my team in Department of Planning, Monitoring

and Evaluation, one colleague said that that is my area of working, and I had to say to this colleague that no, I’m not going to do your work there, I’m going to do mine.

Therefore, those are some of the things that we need to clear that. If I come, for instance, to a bridge that is being constructed is not because Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is building that bridge, Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has a legal duty actually, as an independent institution, to check if the implementation institution and funds that are implemented are as it planned that are before the President. Therefore, your point is taken but again it still goes back, can you imagine if the disaster management systems ... for instance, the M&E of the disaster is not similar to any other M&E. You wish the M&E system of disaster is in built so that it doesn’t depend on an institution coming to fall. It is independent and inherently build M&E system so that as the crisis comes in, you automatically reflect on the M&E site. The situation there has unfold and actually in digitisation in many other things will go a long way. So, I think your point is taken, we tried but I think it can be organised differently and better. Thank you.


Moh S B LEHIHI: Ke a leboga. Tona ...


... which measures has the Minister put in place to ensure that beneficiaries will receive houses allocated to them within reasonable time and which steps shall be taken to ensure that temporary residential units which are only intended for short periods of time do not become permanent features?


Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr M Gungubele): I think to the greater extent one has responded to that question except the last point where what measures are there to make sure that those are not permanent structures. Remember, in our opening we spoke about the availability of land, how far from your original house, and all those kinds of things, and what role can private sector, it actually calls for a lot of things depending on the damage of the house and some systems. You might have heard, hon member, the President speaking about the

red tape. One thing that we are very weak at is our responsiveness, our system has to improve in timeous.

I will give you an example, for instance, we are going to come at Lekgotla very soon and other plans emerged out of that that within a year we must carry A and get over and done with it.
Therefore, we only realise as we concretise the plan that there is a need for legislative amendment for a plan whose effect must be this year, you find that legislative amendment takes clears as a lot of such situations. Even now as we speak the plan the President has put together might require that certain regulations be removed so that that which must impact in energy within 18 months does it in 18 months, but you find that to change that regulation, there’s an act I came across and I think is coming to Parliament, I just can’t remember, and this Bill has been there since 2005. So, those are some of the things that we really need to deal with. Otherwise we are becoming a joke in terms of being a reliable institution to deal with the immediate issues that are effectible. Therefore, there is a need for overhauling our system so that our system helps us to respond timeously to issues. Thank you.

Question 45:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Minister. We now come to Question 45 asked by hon Dangor. It’s your last question for the day.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Ja [Yes].

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I was already looking forward to 7pm. Thank you, hon Dangor. The repositioning of the Presidential Co-ordinating Council, PCC, is an intergovernmental co-ordinating body that comprises of the President, the premiers, the South African Local Government Association, Salga, with the metropolitan mayors in attendance, and is managed by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

This structure is complimented by other intergovernmental bodies such as the Premier’s Co-ordinating Forum at the provincial level and co-ordinating structure support and the District Development Model, DDM. This structure is strategically positioned to address several dual issues and other matters of national interest. The council has been inundated with matters, leading to water supply, drought,

electricity supply, sanitation, transport matters, state of local government, implementation of the Back to Basics programme, DDM approach, and other range of service delivery matters such as the progress on the implementation of National Development Plan as translated in our Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTSF.

The country has just gone through a serious pandemic and related lockdown. To manage that, integrated governance structures had to be implemented to stabilize the country and ensure recover. Many in the country have reflected and commented on the efficiency and effectiveness of structures put into place to protect the country and bring it back to stability. With those structures having dissolved, there is a push to infuse the learnings of that period into normal governance and intergovernmental structures. The country is looking into how to infuse an efficient and a collaborative intergovernmental system, into managing the day to day delivery and developmental challenges.

A key structure supporting the PCC is the DDM that is being rolled out to create a solid foundation for an optimal and efficient intergovernmental system. It is envisaged that DDM having the one plan will facilitate efficient and effective

service delivery issues with respect to bulk water supply Eskom crisis, public transport crisis, especially the passenger rail transport and crime and security. Co-ordinating at the district level will also enable an upward flow of information from DDM to the Premier’s Co-ordinating Forum to the PCC at the apex of that system.

Alignment and seamless integration across different levels will result in visible impacts on the important delivery and developmental challenges, such as stabilizing and optimizing the grid and the water and sanitation system and its catchment areas etc. This impact will require improvement at each level of the system. To this end, improvements are now being explored with respect to Premiers, Co-ordinating Forum in each province. And the PCC at the apex of the system with the impetus of the implementation of the DDM and the ongoing conversation results should become evident in the short time, if these interventions are implemented. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, hon Minister for your response, which inspires hope in our people about the capacity of our governance system to reinvent itself in pursuit of a better quality of life for all. Are there mechanisms in place to ensure the integrity of the reports from the provinces and

local government to the national government, especially as they relate to the policy impact on the lives of our people?

Minister, on a separate matter, I am sure you will join me as we wish the hon Seleku happy birthday. It’s his birthday today. And hope that for the ideal transitions from an illiberal liberal to a neoconservative that has benchmarking in place. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Dangor.

Mr I M SILEKU: Don’t spoil it ambassador please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Seleku is one of those that will be asking you a follow up question. He is on the Virtual platform and is one of those that asks a follow up question.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Happy birthday, hon Seleku.

Mr I M SILEKU: Thank you, Mphathiswa [Minister].

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Dandor. What a

way to respond to a question of one of my mentors. And, I’m

trying to stand up straight and be careful how I respond to the question because I suspect he will check whether he teachings did go down. The question you asking is, is there a system to ensure that at a provincial level, the reports that are submitted do have the credibility.

I think when we say, for instance, you spoke yourself about PCC. We also reflect on Premiers Co-ordinating Forum. We also reflect on the DDM. As a number of measures to integrate government, you know, you will be shocked to realize how a lot of cost in South Africa comes from silo mentality. How a lot of failures come from silo mentality. A lot of inefficiencies come from silo mentality. For instance, if you look at the DDM, I spend time at Harry Gwala, where I am ... [Inaudible.]
... You look at what it can achieve. You find that a project is not implemented, which is required by local government because a particular resource, they do not have, which the provincial government does have. But that project is put aside and the skill around the corner from the province, national has that resource. Some of these things don’t need even a new budget.

If you can look at a number of resources that you require for a given project and how a number of them have been badly

implemented. And how is that related and attributed to the basic thing of working seamless? If you get my report, I hope the DA will take this into account. There is a number of interventions one or two when I read here, the Deputy Minister in the Presidency says will go to eight provinces. And you find that the province which is not there is a DA-led province. And I’m saying there is no contradiction because in our Constitution, there are national competencies, exclusively national, there are those which are co-operative in line with section 3, there are those that are exclusive to a sphere. But what is interesting, all these things when we implement them, we implement them in a common note. The fact that a particular development in a particular area is led by DA, doesn’t change that there are national implications in executing that programme. If that relationship is not actually taken care of, what fails is the project purely by not doing what is basic
co-ordination. For instance, if you say you want to build a clinic here in this note, and let’s say that’s a provincial or a competence, but there are regulations or laws, or they are authorities that must be approved, that there are approvals that require national approval. You find that a project is waiting because you don’t want to work with national because national government will be a different party or maybe national decides to play games because those who are leading

in that local area happen to be a different party. Those are the things, - when I said there are things this country must be able to put together and say, in as far as these areas of work are concern, let’s commit to non-partisanship. Because you will find that 80% of the strictures of development come from that, those basic issues.

Hon Chair, I’m trying to make a case that let’s liberate our country from silo mentality. Let’s benefit our country through seamlessness in working together because there is a speed there, there is quality and there is predictability. Thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, it is very well to strategically reposition the PCC. However, the Ministers responsible for the above-mentioned issues are not affecting change within an acceptable timeframe. I would like to know, according to the Minister of Water and Sanitation, we lose up to 60% of bulk water supply due to dysfunctional infrastructure. How does repositioning of the PCC support capacity building in addressing the issues of water loss throughout the country? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think you would want a follow up like that after such a torture. If there’s one area where there is a significant intervention, which is beginning to be demonstrated, is in the water. You go to Giyani, Machabeng, Maluti-A-Phofung, Harrismith and so on. That department under Minister Mchunu and Director-General, DG, Sean Phillips is one of the department in my view recently that are beginning to show that when plans are in place and when times are respected, when planning is in order, there’s a difference that you’re going to make. I think hon Hadebe what we need to do is to ask the Minister to come and do a progress report.

I remember I was in Giyani at some stage, I was not there about water. In Giyani there is a dam which has got no reticulation. People who are around don’t have water but there’s a dam with water around. That pattern applies in a number of areas. People said to me, - and I was not there for water related issues, but people said to me, please tell the Minister of water we see the difference that is taking place here now.

All I’m saying is that the difference is that they see work

that is being done, whether that work has delivered water now

is a different issue. All I’m saying is that the question that you’ve raised is in an area where hon Chair, I would strongly advise that you call the Minister of Water and Sanitation...
- you can get a better report in his institutional changes that is taking place and how the national strategy water infrastructure agency that was tabled in the Cabinet yesterday to actually send it for consultation to make sure that the central planning with regard to analysing detecting water resources and also putting infrastructure in a more integrated way. Because if there is one thing we cannot afford not to have is water. And I think it is important...

I’m from Engcobo in the Eastern Cape where I was born, and sometimes my own rural town doesn’t have water. But within the town, there is a river that has never gone without water and it’s called Ncotyana. I asked how does it happen that when there’s such a perennial river... - I can list the rivers there that have never gone without water, which are from the mountain. But it happens that we do not have water. And this intervention that the Minister is actually doing on the agency for water infrastructure and integration in securing water, making it secured available and clean. That intervention, - I think if the Minister comes here he can put you in a better light. But I want reassure you, that’s the area where

interventions are beginning to excite. It’s going to be a long route. But one of the most important thing is that the way they are intervening... - Even if you don’t have water now, you can see where they are intervening a difference is being made. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, Chair. Minister, with the recent establishment of the National Energy Crisis Committee, NECOM, and the fact that your Ministry does not account to a portfolio committee in Parliament, will you support the DA proposal of a parliamentary ad hoc committee to oversee the work of NECOM given the grave dangers that the continuing energy crisis poses to the Republic? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon TJ, I’m not going to say how it should be done, whether there is a committee. I am a fan of accountability. Even in my party they know. When it comes to accountability, I’ve said it several times, even to the organization, that those of us who are deployed here as Members of Parliament are not deployed to be the sub subcommittees of those who are in the executive. And I want to state that point. They are deployed to make sure that even the party programmes that are being implemented by ... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It’s very interesting when you have members... - You know hon Minister why other members are saying because you are here physically... – Yesterday the Minister who is having a birthday when we were dealing with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, he said the Minister is absent. So today is it is him who is asking from a Virtual platform, so it is very interesting. We are going to join him to celebrate his birthday.


Mr I M SILEKU: Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I will now call upon the Minister for Women and Persons with Disabilities to respond to Question 39, asked by hon Ndongeni whilst at the same time inviting the House Chair.

Question 39:


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon members and hon Minister and members of the House. The department is collaborating with line departments, provinces and local government structures in advancing gender mainstreaming across

policies, programmes and their other day-to-day work. Towards this end, the department is using several and different mechanisms to reach as widely as possible officials in the different departments. The most important mechanism is led by the director-general who initiates one-on-one meetings with individual director-generals including provincial director- generals and sets a way for the officials to thereafter engage. This has been bearing fruit but given the number of institutions we are to engage with, it is a long-winded and protracted effort.

The department has also been developing memorandums of understanding, MOUs, with different departments and institutions. We signed some MOUs. For example, with the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and Land Reform, Transport and Human Settlements, to mention just but a few. The department holds regular meetings with national departments and provinces on gender mainstreaming. We are confident that we will be making progress and engaging with individual line departments on mainstreaming on specific issues, to suggest just a few. On the issue of climate change, environment, waste management and ocean economy, we are engaging with different sections of the Department of

Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, we do so with the other line function departments.

On the issue of Gender Responsive Planning, Budgeting, Monitoring, Evaluation and Auditing Framework, we work and collaborate with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation and Treasury, and we work with all the departments and provinces, providing workshops on the framework. We are also working with the SA Local Government Association Salga on providing to different provincial councillors workshops on framework so that mainstreaming can be fostered and even at the municipality level.

The department has developed Gender Responsive Planning, Budgeting, Monitoring, Evaluation and Auditing Framework which was adopted by Cabinet in 2019. It is a tool for mainstreaming across the different levels of government. The department is also currently engaged with developing overarching national mainstreaming strategy which outlines guidelines for mainstreaming within specific sectors. This also includes the work we are undertaking on mainstreaming on gender mainstreaming budgeting across the planning and budgeting cycle of government in collaboration with National Treasury and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation,

especially on the development of framework of the gender responsive planning and with all the guidelines.

I say this by emphasising that these efforts directly responding to the recommendations emerging from the updated Women’s Charter 2021. I submit, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, Minister. I would also like to remind the Minister that she has been allocated five minutes and members have two minutes. I would now ask the hon Ndongeni to make a follow-up question.

Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, House Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister for an elaborate answer to my question. It is very encouraging to hear about the co-operation between your department and other departments and institutions. The signing of MOUs with some departments is also very encouraging. My question is: “Is there any intention and timeframes to sign MOUs without outside departments?”


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon member, if I got the question correctly, the response is that we want this gender mainstreaming to be not just with government, but to also make

sure that the private sector also support this initiative because it is important. As I said earlier on, it is very much in line with the updated Women’s Charter review that we have just adopted through this House. So, work is going on in that manner.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon Minister. I would now like to call upon hon Bara for the follow-up question.

Mr M R BARA: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the indicators that you are mentioning, do not seem to be changing the difficult harsh realities faced by women every day. It seems that the department ticks boxes and evaluates instead of making real differences in people’s lives. How can you make
... indicators into something real, instead of something on paper? Thank you, House Chair.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon member. When we deal with issues of women, youth and persons with disabilities, we are dealing a sector of vulnerable people who have been with us for years. So, we are not about to start ticking the boxes; we are making a call to all society, to all communities, to all

Members of Parliament to come and join in so that we can all get used to responding in reality and not in ticking boxes. That is why under normal circumstances it would have not been necessary even to go further and sign MOUs and to do this and that. But we really are trying to inculcate the culture of realising that this is a reality that we have to look at and implement in line with the mandate of the department.

Mr T APLENI: Thank you very much, House Chair. Minister, striving for gender equality in our society has become a critical issue yet there still exist numerous gender equality policy implementation changes which are as a result of leaders not being accountable, responsible and committed to gender equality initiatives. Minister, will mechanisms developed also include the prevention and elimination of violence and harassment in the workplace, if so, please provide us with details. Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon member, we really cannot agree with you more. All of us in the House, in our communities, in the entire society, we have to put your shoulder to the wheel to make sure that we do away with patriarchy; we do away with toxic masculinity; we do away with the notion that says ...


... tia etwa ke ye tshadi pele di wela ka leopeng.


We all have a responsibility to work together to make sure that that which we wish, and that which will be good for society – of a country of more than 52% of the population that they also get their happy day someday as we work together. It is a problem of society. The department is leading but it leads a lot of positive noises, not only from women as these challenges affect women, but also from the entire society.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon Minister. We are now on the fourth follow-up question from M N Hadebe.

Mr N M HADEBE: Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): You can continue, hon member.

Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the matter of

... [Inaudible.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): I was aware hon member, but I think the Table can help. [Interjections.] Is it fine? Okay, thank you very much.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, the matter of gender equality within our public sector is very important, especially as the change of attitude towards women will be able to filter down into our local communities. I would like to know how has your department engaged at local government levels to provide understanding and consultations with relevant departments to fully understand any proposed polices in this regard. Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much hon member and Chair. As we were celebrating the history of Banyana Banyana bringing back the trophy global World Cup to South Africa, we were harshly reminded that they earn 1o times less than what their male counterparts earn. We are working together with the Department of Public Service and Administration to make sure that there is equality in the workplace where men and women or employees get equal pay. Sometimes it’s under notches, sometimes it’s this and that. We are on a journey to correct the wrongs of our past. This anomaly that the hon member has

referred to is not only in the municipalities, but also starting from national level, we really have a lot of work to do. I thank you.

Question 36:


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, the National Strategic Plan, NSP, on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide has been infused into the annual performance plans, APPs of the departments sourced within the existing based lines budgets. Meaning that, every department has a responsibility to make sure that we implement the NSP of the first summit on gender-based violence and femicide on. The department co-ordinates and monitors the implementation thereof.

Monthly progress reports are being facilitated from all government departments and sent to the President. Progress on implementation is being reported to the President in all the clusters of the director-generals. The director-generals provides strategic guidance and leadership collectively to upscale interventions and address blockages if there are any. A critical role that the department is pursuing is that of co- ordinating the establishment of rapid response teams across the country. These structures play the vital role of

preventing and responding to issues of gender-based violence and femicide in the district and local levels.

We are now invited to work through the District Development Models, DDMs mechanisms. Currently, the department is leading the process of developing a year or two of the NSP on Gender- Based Violence and Femicide in implementation of the progress report. The report is premised with Pillar One of the NSP on Accountability. It gives an account on achievements in each pillar, challenges, lessons, improvement of interventions and recommendations.

The department has a comprehensive national prevention strategy that is designed to proactively predict, combat, mitigate gender-based violence and femicide by integrating primary, secondary and tertiary ... [Inaudible.] relations. The strategy explicitly targets anyone in South Africa who is facing or is at risk of experiencing violence due to the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or questioning, or another diverse gender identity, LGBTQ+ and community people with disabilities.

Prevention strategy is set out to intentionally transform the structural foundations of GBVF across provincial and local

spheres. It seeks to strengthen the national delivery capacity to roll out evidence-based prevention programmes, further addressing harmful social and gender norms that lead to gender-based violence. Finally, it proposes concretely to bring about measures to prevent gender-based violence and femicide.

We say this truly ashamed of what has happened in Krugersdorp a few days ago. That is why when I started with my intervention Chair, I said, we need the entirety of all society to make this history. It was very painful.

Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chair, can I please check on a point of clarity please? Can the Minister just repeat what is the competition that Banyana Banyana won? I just want to make sure what she just said.


WITH DISABILITIES: It was on all media platforms. Banyana Banyana won the World Cup AFCON. I am sorry, Banyana Banyana won the AFCON Football World Cup. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, order. You do not have to speak if I did not give you the permission to speak.

Mr M R BARA: Africa Cup of Nations.



Mr M R BARA: Hon Chairperson, it was the AFCON, Women’s Africa Cup of Nations, Minister and not the World Cup. Thank you, Chair, let me get to my question. Minister, in your media statement response on the release of the fourth quarter crime statistics by SAPS, you expressed outrage and concern numerous times but no solutions. What I would like to know from you, Minister is whether there are any interdepartmental agreements with the SAPS? What are the set targets and how much of the set targets have been met and not? Who is to be blamed for this? Thank you House Chair.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, all the leaders of South Africa have all the responsibility, in particular the departments ... [Lost in change tape recording from 16h15 to

16h30] hon President Ramaphosa who has appointed an Inter- Ministerial Committee on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide which includes us, the Police, Department of Public Service and Administration, Social Development and Treasury to work together and make sure that we keep working with all of our society to make sure that we make this history. I did say when I started that we are fighting patriarchy. It has not been easy. That is why we are making a call to all progressive men and women to join the call.

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon House Chair, let me thank the Minister for the response to the question. Gender-based violence is still very high in our societies as witnessed by the recent gang rape of eight women by the so-called Zama zamas. Are there any positive results coming from the different intervention strategies coming from the government to deal with this pandemic of gender-based violence. Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, the way GBVF is rampant in South Africa, it has been declared by our President as the second pandemic when we were entering the Covid-19 period.
Almost every household in urban and rural households have a story to tell. Groups and LGBTQ+ will all say so. Therefore,

it becomes difficult to take stock or even acknowledge progress because one woman abused is one woman too many. What we have been informed is that in not less three hours every day a woman or a girl child is abused, raped, maimed or killed. This really indeed, has to come to an end.

But yes, there are positive results coming from the different interventions implementation by government. Across the six pillars of the NSP of the Gender-Based Violence and Femicide we have some improvements. [Inaudible.] ... in wider ownership of the NSP priorities being observed across the participating multi-stakeholders including prioritisation of gender-based violence and femicide by government during the Covid-19 pandemic, particularly during the lockdown.

The accelerated accountability is bringing prevention where there is now comprehensive national gender-based violence and femicide prevention strategy. There are interventions implemented by the police such as closure of illegal liquor stores. This initiative is critical to ensuring that we break the linkages between alcohol and gender-based violence.

The strengthened legislative environment has ensured that the Criminal Justice system becomes victim centred and that it

addresses perpetuity impunity. In terms of response, care and support there is concerted effort to support so that civil society organisation come to a party and they do support in gender-based violence and femicide services. Economic Cluster services have yielded the call to drive the socioeconomic agenda. Women Economic Assembly, Wecona was launched and currently it is functional and we are cascading it from national to provinces. Our wish is that it should go down to the local municipalities. I thank you.

Mr M A P BRUYN: Hon House Chair, hon Minister how many centres for victims of gender-based violence ... [Inaudible.] operational countrywide where women can report abuse and get interdicts and legal help if it is necessary? How accessible are these centres to all our communities and other new centres that are being planned for the future?


WITH DISABILITIES: We have committed through the National Development Plan, NDP Vision 2030 and also through the UN that by 2030 we will have made strides. The how many, as in numbers should first start with how do we change, how do we turn around our lifestyles and be counting how many women are living without fear and walking on the streets. Our girls,

women with disabilities without fears of being treated otherwise by those men I refer to having toxic masculinity.

We are focusing on not emphasising on victims but also on survivors. They must get shelters temporarily but the need is
– as Ministers of Human Settlements, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Water Affairs and Sanitation have been saying permanent, strong and durable accommodation so that we can limit this anomaly. I thank you.


Mong K MOTSAMAI: Ke a leboha Letona. Re ya bona hore tlhekefesto ya bong e senya ditokelo tsa batho ba bo mme bao re nang le bona lefatsheng lena, Letona, ke bohato bofe boo o bo nkileng ho sireletsa tlhekefetso ya bong? Ke a leboha.



BA SA ITEKANELAGO: Ke a leboga, mohlomphegi. Bogato bjoo o bo nyakago ke ietie ke boletie gore ke bogato bjoo re bo gatago le Mopresidente wa rena. O thomile ka go hloma sehlophatihomo sa Ditona tia dikgoro tie hlano tieo di hlokomelanego le tlhoriio ya basadi. Re ietie re boletie gore ge ba kweiitiwe bohloko ba swanetie ba hwetie tihireletio. Re iomiiana le ba

Kgoro ya Meiomo ya Setihaba yeo ebile e sego lefapheng la rena. Ge re nyaka bodulo re a kgopela, gomme ge go kgonega ba a re fa. Ntle le seo, kgoro ya rena ga se yona e le tee ya go tihireletia basadi - re iomiiana le ba Kgoro ya Sephodisa. Re rata ge basadi ba ka kgona go itirela, ba kgona go ba ...


 ... to be participants in the economic well-being of this country.


Ke ka lebaka leo moetapele wa naga a dirilego kgoeletio gore 40% ya theko ya dithoto tia mmuio e beelwe ka thokwana go thuia basadi, bana ba basetsana le baswa gore re kgone go tiwetia pele naga ya rena ka gore bohloki bo dira gore batho ba itshame le ka digatamarokgwana tieo di ba gatelelago ebile di ba tshwenyago. Ke a leboga.

Question 40:


WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, the department has been in the forefront in advocating and promoting the representation of women in science, engineering and technology sector, briefly known as SET. We have been working with

different line functions, departments on different initiatives to promote the participation and representation of women in science, engineering and technology sectors.

Through our monitoring process, we can highlight that the Department of Science and Innovation, DSI targeted post graduate bursaries, are funding to support women and young and immerging researchers, has funded 359 or 64% of women out of
562 grant holders.

The demographic targets for black ... let me say African in particular and black specifically, 80% and women 55%, students supported were exceeded at honours and masters level, but at the doctoral level more needs to be done to achieve equity in this distribution of bursaries, scholarships and fellowships. We are urging them to address this issue.

There’s have been 29% of the innovation fund allocation to Public Affairs Centre, PAC awarded to women. The Techno-girl’s initiative is one of the programmes which is in collaboration between The United Nations Children's Fund, UNISEF, our department, the Department of Basic Education, the State Information Technology Agency and Uganda Women's Effort to Save Orphans, UWESO, consulting as the implementing partner.

This project aims specifically to promote girl’s participation and learning in science, technology, engineering, mathematics fellows, in which boys consistently outperform girls in South Africa. Candidates are selected from the countries under resourced communities on the basis of the academic merits.
This is to ensure that girls have equal opportunities to excel in things that are needed within the economy.

The Techno-girl is an initiative of job shadowing programme for girls with particular bias towards science, technology, engineering, mathematics, STEM careers. There’s a national steering committee on women in the green economy established among the key government departments and organisations in the private sector. This sector led by the department in
collaboration with the Department of Trade, Industry and

Competition, DTIC. The committee includes the Department of Science and Innovation as well as women in the automotive sector, women in the engineering fields, women in chemicals and such related ... [Inaudible.]

In this committee, there is engagement on representation of women in the different the sectors, as well as focus on economic opportunities for women. This covers science, engineering and technology sectors as well. The department

also collaborates with the Department Science and Innovation, Higher Education and Training and Basic Education on mainstreaming gender issues into their programmes of work. The department also plays key role in value add to draft White Paper on science, technology and innovation.

The inputs from the department focus on issues regarding representations, participation and empowerment of women in the sector. We report that the ... [Interjection.] [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Your time is finish, hon

Member, remember you’ve got five minutes.

Ms M N GILLION: Thank you House Chairperson, thank you, hon Minister for the comprehensive response to my question. It is encouraging to hear about the different programmes that the government has embarked upon, to extend representation and participation of women in the science, engineering and technology sector. Are there any time frames, Minister in place aimed at reaching equal participation? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon House Chair and hon member, we have made commitment as I said, our own National Data

Guardian, NDG, but also we are working towards target base of 50/50 gender parity by 2030 as the determent globally in the United Nations, UN Agenda 2030 and the Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs by 2030. However, we are calling for acceleration of equality in participation and access by women in all spheres of life. Thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, House Chair, hon Minister in 2021 only 35% of learners enrolled in matric, wrote the final exams, only 20% of the learners enrolled, passed these exams. This dismal figure is largely contributed to, by a lack of teachers within the SET sector. I would like to know what is your department doing to ensure that women and persons with disabilities are being given additional support in order to be able to competitively feature within the SET sector? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: House Chairperson, we have a responsibility not only as the department but all other colleagues in Cabinet, in particular the Department of Basic Education but not only that, the communities to make sure that our children do go to school and do complete that which they said they were coming to school for. But, also make it safe for girl-children

to walk the streets of South Africa and acquire the requisite skills that their country needs. I thank you.

Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, House Chairperson, Minister, what reasons lay behind the slow pace of transformation in gender representation of women in the science, engineering and technology sector? And, what efforts have been to address the challenges faced by women and girls in this sector especially in the rural areas? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, Hon House Chair, the same challenge we have and we’ve always had, which we have to bury, patriarchy, release the end, the other end of a girl child, not be responsible for everything in the household, including making sure that they also perform at the level that we want them to perform academically.

We have to make a call to all South Africans, starting with hon members, that it is our responsibility, it’s our call. The department is there to work with all of us, to make sure that, as we have already started with President Ramaphosa and even earlier, to make that we do not leave anyone behind, particularly girl-children. Leave no one behind, as we rebuild

with resilience, particularly this August month, Women’s Month

and beyond.

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, House Chairperson, hon Minister, in South Africa only 13% of graduates leaving tertiary institutions with qualification in science, technology, engineering and mathematics are women. Women remain under represented in this critical disciplines in which South Africa continues to experience skill shortages. Now, this disparity points to a lack of opportunity. And, Minister in many ways women could be the answer to this shortage. What level of support is your department giving young girls to complete school, as this seems to the major contributing factor?
Additionally, Minister I know that you’ve mentioned that you have roll out some programmes, but what exactly is your department doing with negative gender stereotypes, environmental circumstances of women and negative social belief systems that prevent girls from reaching their full potential? Thank you, House Chairperson.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, House Chair and hon member. This challenge, besides the efforts that I have listed earlier on, with which we are endeavouring on even on signing

memorandums of understanding, MOUs, with sister departments who are serving with us in the same government. And, making sure that in these special sectors, the SET working together with the Department of Basic Education and Science and Innovation, we continue encouraging young women to excel.

But, not only that, but also give them support, not only by pushing but by also making sure that we give a helping hand, to make sure that we turn around as we bury the patriarchy and leave no one behind as we strengthen the hand of resilience of the South African women, in line with what women in this country have done in 1956 and even in much earlier. We are not afraid; we are having a need to be supported to do what women can do best. And the department is not shy to work with all our communities to make sure that 50/50 is achieved in our lifetime. I thank you.

Question 25:


WITH DISABILITIES: The economic cluster department has developed initiatives and created opportunities to be explored by persons with disabilities. In this financial year 2022 the department will host an economic summit for persons with disabilities to, amongst many others, explore the low update

and participation of persons with disabilities in the current economic initiatives. That is what we are busy with, House Chair.


Moh S B LEHIHI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Mokhuduthamaga, ke mafapha kgotsa ditlamo tse feng, di le kae, tse lefapha la gago le ikgolagantseng le tsona go rebolela batho ba ba tshelang ka bogole, segolobogolo basadi, katiso e e maleba gore ba kgone go ikungwela mo kgolaganong eo? Ke a leboga.



BA SA ITEKANELAGO: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Leloko leo le hlomphegago, tlhohlo yeo re lebanego le yona ya batho bao ba sa itekanelago e na le go itshama ka kokwane yeo e hlomilwego
- yeo e lego kua ntlong ya yena Mopresidente wa rena. Re iomiiana mmogo le ona maitekelo ao. Re kopana le bona kgafetiakgafetia.


We are also their secretariat.


Re ioma gape le ba lekala la praebete ebile ...


... we want to make a call through a question that we need more private sector to be more interested in doing this. Let me also take advantage of your question and say that as we were launching the August month on the first we saw recycled waste products made by disabled people.


Bao ba dirilego ditulo le ditafola le dilo tia go kgabiia ka malapeng kua Ethekwini ...


... and we felt very proud. There is still lot of room to be taken care of. We have a responsibility as a country that at least 7% of people with disabilities are participating in the economic wellbeing of our country. I thank you.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, in September 2019 our committee embarked on a visit to the Supported Employment Enterprises Centre in Cape Town. We were warmly welcomed there by the alternately abled community who showed us with pride the products that they are manufacturing

from coffee trays — which a number of the members received on the visit and are still in my Acacia Park house and I use a lot — to lounge suits. It was literally nothing beyond their expertise.

In order for these centres to grow and employ thousands more of this community, they simply need an opportunity for business. What is your department doing to encourage all government departments to set aside funds in order to procure specifically from these centres? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, with all humility, can I request you to just ask the hon member to repeat the gist?

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon House Chairperson, with your permission, hon Minister I was saying that the Supported Employment Enterprises centre in Cape Town, and I believe there a number across the country, focuses on manufacturing furniture and household items, school desks etc. They are staffed by alternately abled people — that is the correct term and not disability because people who are alternately abled are no less than anybody else. The problem is that these centres are not supported as much as they should be,

specifically by government. So, I am asking you as the Minister for your department, what are doing to talk to other departments and say that when you are purchasing office desks, school desks and office furniture, please give consideration to these centres, because with increased support these centres will grow and obviously they will provide more and more employment for the alternately abled community? That is the gist of the question. Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much. We really cannot agree with you more. I have said earlier on responding to the other question that we agree with the President that on government procurement, be it at the local, provincial or national level, there is a need for us to make sure that the set aside of 40% procurement is given or it is felt by ordinary people particularly the disabled people 7% of that needs to get there.

Our role, together with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, is to monitor if on annual basis this is going up and that it is not only talk but indeed they are getting the support that they need to get.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon House Chair, to the Minister, although there are a number of agencies and skills that provide access to credit facilities and grants for disabled entrepreneurs which is a positive, my question would be how many centres are currently operational that provide the necessary skills development for disabled entrepreneurs to sustainably utilise these credit facilities and grants? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon House Chair, this responsibility we share with Social Development. So, we will keep on giving you an update as and when we are receiving it. Let me also take this opportunity to say that we will also forward it in writing through your good offices.

Ms N E NKOSI: Hon House Chair, thank you to the hon Minister for your response. Hon Minister, what is the role of the department in encouraging participation of persons with difficulties in economic activities? I thank you, hon House Chair.


WITH DISABILITIES: Through you, hon House Chair, we have to work with the communities to unearth and find these people

with disabilities and find their capabilities. Working together with Social Development that has to look at their wellbeing, we work with them and Basic Education and Innovation, particularly in this era of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, 4IR, that we should not find our people not having something to do because there is a lot that technology has brought to us which can be done.

Question 37:


WITH DISABILITIES: The pronoun economic threshold by President Ramaphosa is being mainstreamed in different programmes of departments, aimed at empowering persons with disabilities.
The National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, which is an agency of government overseen by the department, delivers various services and programmes to develop and support youth entrepreneurs through financial and nonfinancial business development support services.

In the year 2021-22 financial year, the NYDA provided the following: First, in 2014, the youth-owned enterprises were supported with financial interventions. Let me repeat that, in 2014. Secondly, 21 276 youth were supported with nonfinancial business development interventions. Thirdly, 7 859 jobs were

created and sustained through supporting entrepreneurs and enterprises. Lastly, 54 and 75 young people were capacitated with skills to enter the job market.

In the 2021-22 financial year, the NYDA grant programme has used 46% of the grant on females, 52 males, 2% to persons with disabilities. There are continuous efforts to achieve gender parity to improve access by persons with disabilities to the grant, as per the new approved disability strategy. I thank you, Chair.

Mr M R BARA: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, Minister, for your response. Minister, I think, where we missed each other on this question is that, there is a specific interest that I had on the people with disabilities, because that is where I think the issue is about. If you look to the Eastern Cape, for instance, you will find that there is more than 90% of unemployed people with disabilities, and so, my main point of interest is more on people with disabilities. Can you give specific instances of where your department has provided support on small businesses of people with disabilities, and how many businesses are currently being supported? Thank you, Chairperson.


WITH DISABILITIES: I will humbly request that we present the report in writing, and also come back to this House to give the answer to the hon member. But also largely let me say to you that, as a country, we have, when I say we, I mean all of us, we said that, we will climb up to at least 7% access to people with disabilities throughout the country. So, people who are living with disabilities in the Eastern Cape are equally South Africans. The Constitution of this country says so that, we should take care of all our people as the Constitution requires. Thank you.

Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, we can all agree that, unemployment in general is at unacceptable levels in South Africa, worst is the fact that, your department deals with more vulnerable people that fall within unemployment. I would like to know, whether your department in collaboration with others, please name them, have identified in rural and township economies programmes, specific entrepreneurship and job skills development opportunities that can assist the government shield the vulnerable groups? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair and the hon member, let me repeat

that, I agree with you that, there’s a general challenge of unemployment, particularly of our young and disabled people, and women in particular. We are at least consoled by the fact that, we are all up and saying that they need access, as our President says, leave no one behind as we reconstruct and build our country, after the shackles of apartheid and COVID- 19.

Also, I did say that, we will be calling upon, not only the usual departments, but also the fact that, we now have the information technology to use it, because that is one sector that disabled people who at least have some hand can do that or who have some disability can make use of the innovation through the IT. We are all hands on deck, and we are not doing this alone, we are doing it and making sure that it’s been driven by the youth or with the youth to the NYDA, the National Youth Development Agency, as I was reading out the figures that, we have complied with them earlier. I thank you.

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thank you, hon Minister for your response to the question. The response is indicating some of the initiative by government in assisting with skills development. The question is, Minister, are there any partners that the

government is working with to achieve these noble objectives? Thank you.


WITH DISABILITIES: Yes, hon Chair. The first partner is an organisation that works with us and with the President on disability. There is a specific special agency that works with people with disability, that we are serving as secretariat as they seat and chat out their strategies, but we are led by the President. Having said that, we all have the responsibility to use the government-owned financial institutions to also contribute as the NYDA will also be contributing towards making sure that we make the lives of everyone better in our country. We will be working with all the other departments.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, we are now moving to the next follow-up question No 4 that will be asked by hon Motsamai. Over to you, Mr Motsamai.


O kae? A o tsamaile?


Rre K MOTSAMAI: Ke a leboga, Tona. Batho ba ba nang le dikgwetlho tsa mmele ba lebagane le mathata a gore ga ba kgone go ikemela ka madi. Tona, o tseile matsapa a feg go thusa batho ba ba tlhagileng ka bokoa jwa dikgwetlho tsa mmele? Ke a leboga.


WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, I did say that ...


... ge ke be ke fetola potiiio ya leloko leo le hlomphegago - ke rile re iomiiana le ba Tlhabollo ya Leago. Rena re le kgoro ga re na letseno leo re le iiago thwii matsogong a batho bao re iomiianago le bona, ntle le ge re ka ioma le bao ba iomiianago le bona ka dipholisi tie. Bjale, re ba eletia gore ba leke ka maatla gore ba nyake thuio go borakgwebo goba go ditheo tia ditihelete tia mmuio le tieo e sego tia mmuio. Tieo di kgona go thuia batho bao re rego ga ba kgone go ikemela, ba hloka thuio ya mmuio.

Question 42:


WITH DISABILITIES: The Presidential Working Group on Disability, PWGD, is made up of representatives of civil

society organisations for persons with disabilities and serves as an advisory body to advise the President on all matters regarding the disability sector. The Presidential Working Group, PWG, has set up nine workstreams in line with key priorities of government and monitors the implementation thereof. As I said earlier on, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities serves as a secretariat for this entity. Government departments have made commitments in line with its set priorities and annually report on progress to the President and the PWG.

Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks, hon House Chairperson. Let me also appreciate the response by the hon Minister. Based on the progress reports by different government departments, I just want to check if there is any progress on the faster implementation of the commitments made.


WITH DISABILITIES: Well, there was once again a call made yesterday by the President, that we have one government. Departments are to be the enablers. We do not work through a silo mechanism but ... work together. That’s why I keep repeating, leave no-one behind as we rebuild and reconstruct South Africa.

If we reduce ... You see, sometimes we ... I say we because I don’t want to sound otherwise. A silo mentality goes with ... when they say, bring about accountability and how you are championing the cause that you have been given. You think you should go it alone. However, we work better if we co-ordinate our activities and work as one government.

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you Chairperson of the session. My question is as follows. People with disabilities face a number of human rights violations, including stigma, a lack of access to education and a lack of employment opportunities. Minister, which programmes are currently in place to facilitate the successful economic participation of persons living with disabilities in provinces?


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, Chair. I think the hon member has actually asked a question but also provided ... with the
... how we should go ahead. I said that through the PWG all disability groups bring their representatives to say this is the area where we need attention now, and that gets followed up accordingly. We as the secretariat do not sit back and design programmes for them, but they design programmes and bring them to the table. What we do is to support.

There’s also a saying which comes from persons with disabilities that ... nothing about us without us. They want absolutely nothing that gets done about them without them. So we work with them and take the lead from that which they are pointing at as a priority area, and that’s how we have been doing.

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, I have a three-part question. How many programmes for the empowerment of disabled persons are currently funded by the state? What is the estimated annual cost of this funding? And, what plans are in place to motivate the public sector to contribute to funding these programmes?


WITH DISABILITIES: Well, Chair, I did say that as far as finances is concerned, we depend on other departments. This is by law. There is no financial budget that comes to the department but our responsibility is to guide and work with monitoring and evaluation to guide the policies so that disabled people do not get left behind. Now that we realise that there is a need, we will insist on that from other departments and bring it in writing to this good House. I thank you.

Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, Statistics SA has confirmed that after 28 years of ANC government, more than 90% of people with disabilities in rural areas remain unemployed. So, if in fact there is anything that you are doing, it’s not working, and I think the performance this afternoon in answering questions has told us why. Minister, what initiatives has the PWGD launched to put our disabled people into decent jobs?


WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Chair. I did not come with the list. Safe to say that through the PWG, there are provincial representatives and they also keep their records on how they work with disabled people. So, if that is the need or the instruction from your good self and the House, that we must bring that to your good selves, that we will do. However, for today, the PWGD meets annually with the President to assess progress made by the government.

In 2021, a workshop was held with our own department and

13 priority areas were generated. They are linked ... action plans and performance indicators in line with strategic plans and aligned to the Medium-Term Strategic Framework of

government, with links to departments identified to deliver on targets.

Successes recorded are that the government departments have identified key deliverables and made commitments for implementation. To date, the Department of Basic Education hosted an inclusive education summit. A commitment was made to host a transport summit and an economic empowerment summit for persons with disabilities.

The PWG is also a forum of engagement on planning and consultation, and disability rights is also put on the agenda. Our department was part of the consultation on the issue of paper towards the development of disability rights’ legislation processes towards the ratification of the AU protocol on disability and the frameworks awareness, self- presentation, universal design and access and reasonable accommodation. Reasonable accommodation also being really quite ... [Inaudible.] ... or a priority. I thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thanks, hon Minister. Hon delegates, I would like to thank the Minister, MECs and all permanent and special delegates for availing themselves. Hon members, I would also like to make an announcement. There

will be a Western Cape Women’s Charter event tomorrow at the Life Conference Centre in Sea Point. Hon delegates, that concludes the business of the day. The House is adjourned.

The Council adjourned at 17:39.




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