Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 12 May 2022
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch: Plenary proceedings
The Council met at 14:00.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In keeping with our tradition and practice, allow me to begin by bowing to my right and bowing to my left. Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to remind you of the following; that the virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces, that the place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town where the sitting of the National Council of Provinces is, that delegates in the virtual platform enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces, that for the purpose of a quorum all delegates who are logged on to the virtual platform shall be considered present, that delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak, that the delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted, that the interpretation facility is active and that any delegate who wishes to speak must use the “raise your hand” function or icon. Hon delegates, in accordance with Council Rule 247 (1) there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions Without Notice Before we proceed to the questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy President, welcome Deputy President, MECs, speakers and all special delegates to the House. I would further like to make the following remarks. The time for a reply to a question by the Deputy President is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question. The first question is a question to the Deputy President is on the disruption of services in flood-affected areas in KwaZulu- Natal. This question to the Deputy President is asked by hon Bebee.
QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 7:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, good afternoon to you and all the members, the recent floods and heavy rains in the province of KwaZulu-Natal, some parts of the Eastern Cape, as well as parts of the North West, have indeed brought untold misery and suffering. We have witnessed severe damage and
destruction of houses, property, infrastructure, loss of homes and personal possessions, as well as unprecedented loss of lives and livelihoods, with the devastation, felt most acutely in the KwaZulu-Natal province.
Once again, we would like to express our deepest condolences to all the families and relatives of the people who have lost their lives during this natural disaster and tragic calamity. Our thoughts and prayers go to all the families whose members are still not accounted for. We remain hopeful that the continued recovery and rescue efforts will help us find closure in this regard. In responding to the damage that has been brought about by the devastating floods, on 18 April 2022, the President declared the National State of Disaster as an effective response by all spheres of government to this disaster. In the main, this is to enable and allow us to co- ordinate and deploy all the necessary resources to the
affected areas as part of our rapid response interventions. In terms of the National State of Disaster, the primary responsibility to co-ordinate and manage the disaster is assigned to the national sphere of government, working closely with provincial governments and municipalities of the affected areas. This enables the mobilisation of resources, capabilities and technical expertise in providing relief, recovery and rehabilitation to the affected communities. In this regard, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, through the National Disaster Management Centre, is co-ordinating response and recovery measures by the relevant organs of state and stakeholders. The organs of state across all spheres of government have also activated contingency measures in line with their respective mandates, and integrated institutional arrangements to deal with the disaster.
As part of an integrated response to this disaster, the government has developed an Integrated Flood Response and Recovery Plan that outlines the multisectoral response and recovery efforts to be implemented by all the stakeholders in the affected communities. Through this plan, the government
has adopted a three-pronged approach to the disaster response and recovery, which is summarised as follows; Phase 1: Immediate humanitarian relief to ensure that all affected persons are safe and that their basic needs are met; Phase 2: Stabilisation and recovery, which includes rehousing people
who have lost homes and restoring provision of services; and Phase 3: Reconstruction and rehabilitation, with a focus on
“Building Back Better”. In line with this approach, the government activated a Joint Response Tactical Team comprising
search and rescue specialists from all first responders across public, private and volunteer organisations, in order to spearhead the search and rescue operations as well as provide humanitarian relief to all the communities affected by this
disaster in KwaZulu-Natal.
The team is based in Virginia Airport and is supported by the
SA Police Service Air Wing and the SA National Defence Force
with a variety of resources including aircrafts engineers; as
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well as water bunkers and tankers to support the provision of
basic services to the affected areas. As part of the rapid
response interventions, the National Disaster Management
Centre reported as of 30 April 2022, 8 096 people in KwaZulu-
Natal were being accommodated. The government, with the
support of the business sector, nongovernmental organisations,
civil society and communities, continues to implement
interventions, including the provision of food and essential
materials such as blankets, school uniforms, chronic
medication, and psychosocial support services. Progress
reports are regularly received from affected provinces and
national sector departments, to help improve the co-ordination
of these interventions. We must, however, acknowledge that
much needs to be done in order to return the situation to
normality. Communities like Tongaat and the surrounding areas
are still facing water challenges flowing from the collapse of
the water plant supplying the community, which current
assessments ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Deputy President, there is
a lot of information to share. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... [Inaudible.] ... reminded we
only need the response to be given in five minutes. So, I will
ask the Deputy President to wind up. Maybe another opportunity
will be provided ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. As we
conclude, we would like to express our gratitude and
appreciation to all our partners including individuals,
businesses, nongovernmental organisations and development
partners who have stepped up to collaborate with the
government in assisting our affected communities. It is by
working together that we can recover from this situation and
continue with our rebuilding efforts. Thank you very much, hon
Chairperson.
IsiZulu:
Nk L C BEBEE: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo, ngokunginikeza leli
thuba, ngibonge futhi kuMongameli ngokuthi abuyise ithemba
kwimindeni eyakhahlamezeka kwizikhukhula eKwaZulu-Natal
nakwezinye izindawo. Ngimi lapha ngokuzithoba, Mongameli,
phambi kwakho ukuthi egameni labantu baKwaZulu-Natal, imina
obamele la. Ngicela futhi ukuthi uHulumeni asheshise nokuthi
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aqinisekise ukuthi amaxhama okuxhumana ami ngomumo ukuqhuba
nokusheshisa umisebenzi kuleyo miphakathi eyakhahlamezeka.
Kananjalo, Sekela Mongameli, besicela ukuthi labo abajikeleza
abafuna ukuthi bahlomule ngezinsiza zokusiza abantu
abahlukumezekile ezigcina bengasazitholi. Siyacela, Sekela
Mongameli, ukwazi ukuthi ukubheke lokho, usitshele kabanzi
ukuthi uzokwenza kanjani. Ukuthi futhi uchazele, Sekela
Mongameli, izwe kabanzi namaphethelo uqinisekise lolu sizo
okufuneka ukuthi lutholakale emiphakathini. Ngiyabonga,
Sihlalo Baba, nawe Sekela Mongameli Baba.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, we would like to
reiterate our commitment that all checks and balances will be
put in place to ensure that there is no corruption involved in
the implementation of the post-disaster recovery measures. As
the government, we are determined to ensure that the efforts
of recovery and rebuilding in the affected areas proceed with
the necessary speed and urgency, and are not disrupted by any
form of corrupt activities. We will continue to co-ordinate
all the role-players that are trying to put support services
on the ground. Supporting in the main the efforts by the
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Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
We will set up our district development platform as an
accounting platform that will enable us to fast-track the
provision of services so that we can quickly restore life to
the affected communities. Thank you very much.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chairperson, Mr Deputy President, hon
Bebee, or as we know her, Mama, raises a very important
question. From your response, you clearly understand that the
situation is dire. As a representative of KwaZulu-Natal in
this House and as a member of the ad hoc committee, which
unfortunately has still not been established, I can assure you
that hundreds of thousands of residents in eThekwini are
living without sustained and reliable access to water. It is
clear, Mr Deputy President, that massive funding will be
required. The estimates are between R17 billion to
R25 billion. A promising start was made when on 18 April 2022,
President Ramaphosa announced to the nation that the Minister
of Finance had said that an R1 billion is immediately
available and we will be approaching Parliament for the
appropriation of additional resources. In this context, you
can imagine the surprise of my colleague, hon Francois
Rodgers, and the members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature,
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including ANC, when he was informed by the KwaZulu-Natal MEC
for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, that
there were no funds available from National Treasury to deal
with the crisis. In his words, “zilch, zero, nothing.”
This clearly contradicts the pronouncements of the President
and leaves KwaZulu-Natal in a position where it would have to
borrow money from other essential budgets to resolve the
crisis. The province cannot afford this and eThekwini has
certainly had no hope of paying that kind of money. Mr Deputy
President, I will help you and make this a simple multiple-
choice question. Hon Deputy President, in terms of funding,
who has been economical with the truth? A; the President? B;
the Minister of Finance? C; the MEC? or D; all of the above. I
thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson,
and thanks for the question, I think the hon member should
appreciate the fact that the disaster was so severe that even
today, we are still looking for missing people. A lot of
operations are happening on the ground, and a lot of
interventions to restore life and get all the victims to safe
are happening. The Minister of Finance has directed the
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province to reprioritise some of its programmes so that they
can take care of the disaster. Whatever the shortfall will be,
the National Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, as well as the National Treasury will
augment the shortfall. That has been established as we are
speaking. The Department of Water and Sanitation has delivered
almost 82 water tankers, transporting water to all the
affected families.
Equally so, the Department of Water and Sanitation has
deployed engineers, electrical and dam safety engineers and
all kinds of expertise to the affected areas. Now, the
Department of Home Affairs has established some mobile units
to try and assist people who have lost their documents. So
work is happening. Social development is there providing food
parcels to all the affected families.
And the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs has already provided some water tanks so that these
water tankers can put water in those tanks. People can have
water. By that, I am trying to say there are a number of
efforts that are put in place to try and respond to the
situation. We understand the severity of this challenge, but
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we think in due time, we rescue all the people there and the
necessary support will be given to them. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Nk S A LUTHULI: Ngibonge, Sihlalo, Sekela Mongameli,
siyakuqonda ukuthi sekuyophela inyanga manje isibhicongo
esashiya abantu baKwaZulu-Natal besezinkingeni ngenxa
yezikhukhula. Namanje, iningi labo belingekatholakali kulabo
ababelahlekile. Imizi yabantu le eyabhidlika, kuze kube
yimanje, beyingakakhiwa.
Siyakuqonda ukuthi kuno-R17 billion okwathiwa uzosetshenziswa
la KwaZulu-Natal. Umbuzo, Sekela Mongameli, uthi kanti lo-
R17 billion kwakungowani umangabe ukuthi akuwona wokuthi
kwakhiwe imizi yabantu le eyabhidlika nokuthi kulungiswe
imigwaqo le eyonakala? Umangabe kuwukuthi lo-R17 billion
ingxenye yawo uzoyakha imizi, izokwakhiwa nini, ngasiphi
isikhathi ukuze abantu bazi ukuthi balindele nini ukuthi
babuyele emakhaya abo? Siyabonga.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson,
and thanks to the question, our response to the disaster in
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KwaZulu-Natal, as I said, it is divided into three phases. The
first phase was to immediately provide humanitarian relief, to
ensure that all affected persons are safe. They are moved to
safe places and some minimum basic services are met. So we
have ensured that I am aware that some families are in tents.
We are transporting water just to give them immediate
humanitarian relief. Now the second phase is to stabilise the
recovery process, which includes the building of these houses
for those people who have lost their houses and trying and
restoring the basic services to our people. That would be the
second phase, but in the first phase, we must get all our
people to safety. Then the third phase will be the medium and
long-term one, which is the reconstruction and rehabilitation
with the focus, like I said, of building back better, try and
build those bridges, trying and build those roads. It will
take a bit of time but we want to ensure that life and
livelihood are restored. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, some
services are very important, such as electricity and water, as
they have major implications on the community and their
ability to live or go to work. With regard to offering the
people facing these disruptions in the shortest possible
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timeframe. I would like to know what are the implications of
the devastation on the needed human, technical and resources
needed? And how will people be assisted in contacting the
relevant government service providers to request a repair or
replacement of vital services? Thank you, hon Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson,
and thanks to the hon member for the question, the hon member
will remember that all the MECs in KwaZulu-Natal, as they
table their Budget Votes, starting from the Department of
Health, the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, all as they table their Votes, they have
reprioritised their budgets. They have set aside money to go
and deal with the immediate services that our people need.
In this case, the Department of Health will look at all the
clinics that have been vandalised because of the floods. The
Department of Education will deal with some of the schools
that have been damaged by the floods. So all line departments
have set aside money to respond. But on top of that, the
Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
will support, monetary-wise will support KwaZulu-Natal.
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National Treasury will support KwaZulu-Natal, and all other
provinces, the nine provinces have assisted KwaZulu-Natal in
one form or another. All the specialists that are there, those
who have tried to dive and find people. Those rescuing people
are coming from all over our country. So the support that is
given to KwaZulu-Natal is acceptable. It is at a good level.
Of course, we can be worried about the pace, but as we want to
build, we must build better so that we do not encounter such a
situation in future. For all the houses that are going to be
built, we must find suitable land out of these flooding zones
so that we build the houses for the people. I can assure hon
members and assure our people that will finally restore the
life of our people. Thank you very much.
Question 8:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chair. When we responded
to this question on Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality on 15
June 2021, we indicated the process that was underway to
finalise the service delivery agreement between the
municipality then and Eskom. We further stated that such an
agreement would include all modalities for collections of
revenue as directed by the court on 8 June 2021.
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This view was based on an understanding that the agreement
would result in a sustainable resolution of the municipality’s
outstanding escalating debt, which was having a negative
impact on the reliable provision of water, sanitation and
other basic services. However, the court order lapsed on 22
June 2021, due to some terms and conditions of the
distribution agency agreement not being finalised and agreed
upon by the two parties. That means Eskom and the municipality
could not finalise the agreement.
Further to this, the local government elections also impacted
on the smooth finalisation of the activities that are linked
to the agreement including putting into effect the court
order. To this end, the Department of Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs has advised that the two parties are
now preparing to go back to court to adjudicate on the matter,
and for the court to grant the final order in order to bring
finality to this dispute. This means that as far as Eskom
Distribution Agency Agreement is concern, this is still
subject to the court process.
Hon Chair, notwithstanding the court processes, the newly
elected leadership in that municipality has acknowledged the
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debt owed to Eskom and has equally expressed its commitment to
servicing the current electricity account. This demonstrate
the political will by the municipality leadership to find
mechanism to reduce Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality’s debt
and ensure that Eskom is paid for its services. Thus ensuring
interruption of supply of electricity to the municipality.
This commitment is evinced by a joined statement on 22 April
2022, wherein Eskom and Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality
announced a breakthrough in this long standing impasse to a
smooth delivery of electricity in the area in terms of this
development. The parties have agreed that Eskom will install
protective equipment on Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality
substations. The municipality will switch off all the
substations so that Eskom can switch back power without the
risk of tripping. Eskom will change the billing date from 15
to 28 of each and every month. The municipality will pay its
current account for the next six month and thereafter engage
Eskom on the payment of their areas debt. Thereafter, the two
parties will reopen the active partnering discussion.
It is our understanding that some of these areas of agreement
have already been met by Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality.
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This is a good sign towards finding a lasting solution to the
problem of sustainable services that must be delivered to the
people of Maluti-A-Phofung. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Ms L M KLEYNHANS: Thank you, Chairperson, and Deputy President
for your response. However, the agreement which you referred
to has already failed because Maluti-A-Phofung Local
Municipality could not make the second payment on the current
account which they had agreed to do.
Deputy President, 280 000 residents of Qwa-qwa in Maluti-A-
Phofung Local Municipality have been engaging in desperate violent
protest due to an almost complete lack of electricity and consequent
lack of water, closure of schools, clinics and businesses. The
special economic zone and factories near Tshiame, were without
electricity for 50-days in December and January this year.
In June 2021, you said in this House Maluti-A-Phofung Local
Municipality, must sign and implement the Eskom agreement as ordered
by the Gauteng High Court on 8 June. To date, 10-months later this
has not happened. The proposed Eskom agreement was first tabled in
the Maluti-A-Phofung Local Municipality Council after more than two-
years of high level negotiations in the Eskom Task Team, of which
you were the Chairperson.
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Deputy President, have you done anything from your side to ensure
that the court order is honoured. If not, why not? And if so, why
has it failed? We all know that this is a different sphere of
government, but there are mechanisms to intervene. Do you as the
Deputy President have so little authority to persuade your comrades
to follow the law in the interest of the people?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. From the
side of our office, we have done everything possible to get
these two parties together. We were also involved in the
drafting of the agreement. The delay in the implementation was
caused by the fact that the municipality must do public
consultation. It took forever until the local government
elections. And beyond that, the leadership of the municipality
was voted out. There is a new leadership in that municipality
that came in and acknowledged the debt. And they went to
discuss with Eskom about how they are going to repay. As we
speak, the municipality is paying and after six months the
municipality would be able to sit down and review the
agreement which they hope they must enter into. In the main,
they want to enter into this agreement because the want to put
new smart meters so that the billing system is corrected. They
are entering into this agreement because of the illegal
connection that is now overpowering the substations. That is
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why they are saying the municipality will switch off all the
substations. And that Eskom will switch them on so that they
run away from overloading these substations because if they
trip on their own they will cause a lot of damage. So, Eskom
should monitor the switching on of these substations and
ensure that there is no further damage.
Hon member, where I am sitting, I can assure you that these
two parties are making progress, because there is an
acknowledgment now and they are working together. And we
should support them. Thank you very much.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Let me
take this opportunity to also thank the Deputy President for
the comprehensive response to the question. As you said,
currently, the municipality is under the coalition of Maluti-A-
Phofung and the DA. All of these problems are experienced
under that coalition and not the coalition of the ANC because
at the time there were payments to Eskom as such.
Having said that, I want to ask the Deputy President that
given the fact that the municipality and Eskom have reached
this breakthrough on a longstanding impasse on 22 April 2022,
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what would the role of the Deputy President be as a leader of
the rapid response intervention on service delivery and
troubleshooting to ensure that the very same municipality of
Maluti-A-Phofung, and Eskom stick to the conditions of the
agreement? Because, if any of the parties fail to honour the
agreement that would cause more problems to the municipality.
Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chair. Our role is still
valid in this impasse. We are going to request the two parties
finally to enter into agreement. Because firstly, their
billing system has totally collapsed. It is incorrect and
people are being billed monies through an incorrect system.
So, Eskom has agreed that they can help the municipality to
put new smart meters that will give us an almost better
billing system. That is the first point.
Secondly, again, the municipality is buying electricity and
the demand out there is more than what the municipality is
buying. So, you have got more illegal connections out there
than what the municipality can afford to buy. We need to
separate all the illegal connections from those people that
are legally connected to the grid. And that can only be done
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by Eskom so that finally the municipality can get out of this
debt, and work together with the Eskom team so that eventually
Eskom will get its money and people get electricity. We will
insist on this agreement to be signed, finally. Thank you very
much.
Mr M A P De BRUYN: Thank you hon Chair. Deputy President
seeing that numerous municipalities face the same problem as
Maluti-A-Phofung regarding their debt to Eskom, would it be
considered to implement the same type of procedures, and not
necessarily the court mandated where Eskom can collect
directly from the public to ensure that debts from defaulting
municipalities to Eskom are being attended to and especially
for the municipalities that do not honour their payment
agreements to Eskom?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chair. Currently, a
number of municipalities are battling to repay their debts.
It’s uneven, they are paying this month and not paying the
following month. As the Task-Team, we have proposed to these
municipalities that they should enter into an agreement with
Eskom so that they can find a way of managing these debts and
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correcting their billing system so that services are not
disrupted.
We’ve not yet received responses from these municipalities.
That we’ve done to the leadership of municipalities that
happened before the elections. So we’ve not spoken to the new
leadership of our municipalities that were elected after the
election.
But I agree with the hon remember, that is the right path to
follow. Because mostly, these municipalities lack necessary
expertise to deal with this problem. So, the best is to bring
Eskom closer, help municipalities to manage their electricity
and their distribution network. Some of the distribution
network has been breached by communities and they are stealing
the electricity. So, Eskom must come in and help
municipalities to try and clean the distribution lines.
The only solution is to have municipalities partnering with
Eskom in the delivery of electricity. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy President, the delay in reaching an
agreement reveals the lack of leadership capacity and lack of
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willingness to manage or resolve the electricity crisis in
this country. As just last month in April, three members of
the community of Makwane in Qwa-qwa who were shot with live
ammunitions during a protest while demanding restoration of
electricity. Why else has it taken so long to reach a waking
agreement with Eskom in this province? As the delays amount
to nothing more than a deliberate attempt at collapsing the
economy. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, the hon
would appreciate the fact that local government is a sphere of
government on its own, it’s autonomous. The only way to
intervene in a municipality - You have got different
legislations that can allow you to intervene in a
municipality. In our case, we were trying to bring two parties
together to find a solution. We were not imposing ourselves,
but we were looking at what is best for the people. In this
case, I must say however that we were disappointed by the
leadership of the municipality then, because they were
dragging their feet and not willing to enter into this
agreement with Eskom. I would like to say, this time around,
we are encouraged by the leadership that is leading the
municipality because on their own volition, they have
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approached Eskom and have acknowledged the debt, and have made
arrangements to pay. They are going to review these
arrangements after six months. So, we are now entering a new
phase which is giving us hope because the leadership of the
municipality is now prepared to work with Eskom to deal with
the problem. That would encourage. Thank you very much.
Question 9:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chair. Government
understands the negative impact of inefficient business
processes and regulatory barriers on business investment and
activity. To overcome these challenges, the Presidency has
prioritised the co-ordination of government measures on the
ease of doing business in the country. As communicated by the
President earlier this week at the Africa Mining Indaba, these
regulatory and administrative efforts anchor our economic
recovery and our reconstruction efforts. In this regard, a Red
Tape Reduction Office is being established in the private
office of the President, and was announced by the President in
the 2022, state of the nation address. This work augments
initiatives that are already underway through Operation
Vulindlela, which is focused on resolving regulatory reform
blockages in network industries, speeding up the issuing of
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mining and water licences, as well as environment
authorisations. This office will deal with policy and
regulatory matters that are co-ordinated at national
government level, and also focus on the resolutions of
provincial and local functions, in partnership with the
Presidential Co-ordinating Council.
Currently, ongoing efforts within government are focused on
resolving the following impediments to business investment in
township and rural communities: Inefficient delivery of basic
services by municipalities, poor customer relationship
management systems in municipalities, inadequate municipal
policies and bylaws as well as regulations, inefficient supply
chain management processes across government, lengthy land
development processes and their turnaround time, lengthy
building plan approval processes and their turnaround time,
and poor management of informal traders by municipalities.
In resolving these impediments, the focus is on establishing
standardised regulations across all spheres of government for
emerging businesses, in an attempt to enhance economic growth
and create employment. Whilst all our efforts are directed at
resolving these issues, there is already significant work that
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has been undertaken to reduce red tape and promote the ease of
doing business. Part of these efforts, include championing of
the Sub-National Doing Business Reforms by National Treasury
and the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition, which
is tracking progress in metropolitan municipalities across
four regulatory areas. These address issues of construction
permits, getting electricity, registering property and
enforcing contracts.
The initiative is being implemented through the city support
programme, to inspire better regulatory practices, improve the
experiences of small businesses, and to encourage
entrepreneurship. Government is supported by the World Bank
Group, the Swiss State Secretariat for Economic Affairs and
the United Kingdom Prosperity Fund in this initiative. Indeed,
we have found that there are good practices in South Africa
comparable to other developed countries. Of course, there is a
potential for improvement through the emulation of good
practices where we may be lacking.
Since the start of the Sub-National Doing Business Reforms
initiative a number of key reforms have been achieved, which
have benefited small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs,
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irrespective of their location. These include: The launch of
the Biz Portal, which is a new integrated digital platform for
companies to register to ensure smooth and seamless business
registration; simplifying construction permits through
automation and circulation internally of site development
plans for stamps by the Land Use Management department within
all metropolitan municipalities; reducing the number of
procedures, time and cost for SMMEs to obtain permanent
electricity connection and supply, and to improve the
reliability of supply, transparency of tariffs and the price
of electricity; registration of property has been made more
transparent by publishing the list of documents required in
conveyancing on the new deeds website and less costly by
reducing the transfer tax. Thank you very much, hon
Chairperson. [Time expired.]
Mr M I RAYI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Greetings
to the Deputy President, and thank you very much for the
response. Hon Deputy President, the red tape in government
around approval of licences and other business related
application is both systemic and deliberate act by some
government officials who are soliciting bribes and kickbacks.
Accordingly, government efforts to enhance the ease of doing
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business as announced by the President in the state of the
nation address do not just about enhancing efficiencies, but
change of values, mindsets and work ethos in favour of
transforming the economy to benefit the majority.
Hon Deputy President, are there plans and programmes for
reskilling and retraining of public servants across the three
spheres of government about this new approach, and will there
be consequences against the public servants who want to
continue with the red tape and corruption? Thank you very
much, hon Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. We must get
the outset, since as government we are committed to only not
root out corruption, but to strengthen the environment in
which public representatives and officials alike perform their
duties and responsibilities to the highest standards of ethics
and integrity. The code of conduct requires that government
departments to establish ethics committees and to appoint
ethics officers as one of the means of strengthening good
governance and ethical conduct in the public service.
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Furthermore, as part of government efforts to ensure that
public service employees are at all levels displaying the
highest level of integrity and accountability. The National
School of Government provides various training programmes to
officials in the public service which are targeted at
improving the delivery of services and bringing back the
integrity of the state. The National Anticorruption Strategy,
Chairperson, you will remember that it was adopted in November
2022, which seeks to strengthen the fight against corruption.
The strategy rallies everyone towards a common goal in the
fight against corruption. In reducing the red tape, the
introduction of automating various administrative processes
has also presented an opportunity for training of our
officials in these measures. Thank you very much, hon
Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy
President, we can agree that people of this country,
especially the rural and township economy must not find it
difficult to conduct business in their own country. However,
... [Lost connectivity.]
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Hadebe, please unmute and go
on.
Mr N M HADEBE: However, legislative requirements are not
always a bad thing as it protects illicit activities which
impact on economies such as rural and township due to copper
theft. Given the losses that Passenger Rail Agency of South
African, Prasa, and Eskom face due to copper cable theft and
the effect on these economies, I would like to know whether
government will consider imposing tighter regulations on
recycling companies to trade copper and rather grant licences
to certain companies to receive it in a bid to stop theft and
maintain records. If so, how will all types of economies
allocated these licences to trade copper. Thank you, hon
Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. As
government we have committed ourselves to deal with
inefficient delivery of basic services by municipalities
together with the provincial government. We’re going to work
together with these other two spheres of government where we
will converge at the district level. Therefore, we consider
that platform a very important platform that will enable the
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three spheres of government to talk to each other. It is at
that level that we are going to deal with inadequate policies
in municipalities, inadequate bylaws and regulations. We will
also deal with supply chain management, and the lengthy
process of land acquisition and the turnaround time shortened.
The time we take in approving a business plan or a building
plan, whatever plan, the time we take to approve an
environmental assessment study, all those needs to be
shortened so that we can allow businesses to do their work as
quick as possible.
However, that should not mean that we are going to allow
illicit behaviours, we will open doors for criminals to come
and corrupt the system, but we are also interested in pulling
all the informal traders and make them formal through our
bylaws and through our regulations so that everyone who is
trading is trading in a formal way, and recognised within the
laws of this country. Therefore, we will resolve all these
impediments at the district level where we meet with
municipalities and meet their provinces, because some of the
rules belong to municipalities, some of the rules belong to
the provinces and some of the rules belong to national
departments. Therefore, together we must meet and shorten the
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time to do business. In that way we’ll be dealing with the red
tape. Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, I’ll be taking this moment of the
EFF. May I continue?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, proceed.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson of the Council. Deputy
President, what we are seeing in the Ministry of Small
Business Development is completely clownish and playing with
people’s minds, and these people are those who are serious
about doing business. They suffer because of lack of
consequence management from the ANC government. Those who
defrauds the system knows that there’s absolutely nothing that
will happen to them. Don’t you see this move of directing
dealing with the red tape to the Presidency as a duplicate of
responsibility between the Presidency and the Ministry of
Small Business Development. Therefore, in a way do you agree
that this move might be translating into a motion of no
confidence on the Ministry of Small Business Development?
Thank you, Chair.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson and thanks to
the hon member. I don’t see this move really as showing a vote
of no confidence to any Ministry. However, I think this move
is trying to address a real problem which does not really rely
on what is happening on the Ministry of Small Business
Development. There are number of Ministries that must also
deal with the red tape. I can put an example of the Ministry
of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries, they are responsible
for environmental impact assessments, EIAs, that take ages to
approve ...[Inaudible.] will wait for an EIA to be approved
before they can start. It will take a year and we are also
concern as government this side were saying people must come
and invest in our country and we take a year to approve an
environmental assessment start. Now, to give a licence, water
licence, it takes two years.
Therefore, we are now busy with all these red tapes, we are
shortening the timeframe and we want to know why should take a
year, why should take two years to issue a water licence. So,
there are many red tapes in government which are not really in
consonance with the way we want to boost our economy. We are
calling for investments, we want to grow the economy, but when
you get into the system, the system slows you down. Therefore,
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this is what we are doing in trying to introduce this so that
the President as head of government must know what is
happening, why this delay of issuing a water licence, and why
this delay of issuing an environmental impact assessment. So,
I don’t think really we are targeting any Ministry, we are
passing a vote of no confidence to anyone, but I think we’re
trying to address the system itself. Thank you very much.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much, hon Chair. If I may, good
afternoon, hon Deputy President. Deputy President, will you
today prove to us that you really care for township and rural
development by: one, agreeing to adopt the Ease of Doing
Business Bill as introduced by the DA to the NA; two, by
committing to ensure that the Gauteng Township Economic Bill
which was promulgated into law on Friday 29 April 2022, does
not run a roughshod over the constitutional rights of foreign
national; and three, finally tell us how you will handle all
the possible threats levelled against you and your government
to challenge this law by a pro-migrant lobby group. Thank you,
hon Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chair, and
thanks to the question. Well as government we are open to any
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persuasion. We are open to listen to any advices that seek to
improve the current condition, and we would be happy to look
at the DA’s proposal. However, remember a proposal is a
proposal. We can take what is good from the proposal and leave
what we think is not good. I think we should appreciate that.
However, from the side of the President we have acknowledged
the shortcoming and the failure of government to support
business.
Now, this initiative that the President has taken to introduce
this office in our office is to try and respond to this
challenge and I think it’s adequate we have got now two
separate offices. We have got Operation Vulindlela which is
also seeking to look at the progress of implementation of our
programmes, and why the delay. However, the red tape office
will always pick up specific areas that must be addressed
which we feel as government we need to shorten the timeframe.
Outside criticism that are coming from the public there are
areas where we see ourselves as government that they are not
user-friendly, and they are not promoting the ease of doing
business. Thank you very much.
Question 10:
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, if I remember well, we
have in the past responded to this question in both Houses of
Parliament, wherein as the Executive, we reaffirmed our
commitment to fulfil our constitutional obligation of
accountability to Parliament. The Constitution stipulates that
Cabinet members are accountable collectively and individually
to Parliament for the exercise of their powers and the
performance of their functions. To give effect to this,
Parliament developed its own mechanisms to monitor outstanding
responses to Parliamentary Questions by members of the
Executive.
The Speaker of the NA further proposed new mechanisms to
monitor outstanding responses to Parliamentary Questions by
members of the Executive, which were adopted in August 2021,
and effected as amendment to the rules. Similarly, we have
used the same mechanisms to monitor responses to Questions
from the NCOP. For our part, the Leader of Government Business
in Parliament has taken the necessary steps according to the
Rules of Parliament to ensure Executive accountability to
Parliament.
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At every Cabinet meeting, we present a report on parliamentary
matters including scheduled appearance by Ministers through
their various clusters, to brief and account to Parliament. As
part of this report, the status of all outstanding responses
to questions for written reply in both the NA and the NCOP is
presented to Cabinet.
An Hon MEMBER: [Interjection of conversation on phone]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can we have some order there? We
cannot have that background noise disturbing the Deputy
President whilst he is dealing with the questions.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is the ANC people.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, order hon members, order.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, we do write
to members of the Executive requesting them to prioritise
responding to unanswered written questions within the
stipulated timeframes. Where applicable, members of the
Executive with more than ten outstanding responses are
expected to provide reasons for not responding within
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stipulated timeframes, and to further outline remedial actions
to identified shortfalls.
Furthermore, the Office of the Leader of Government Business
in Parliament, conducts an analysis of selected responses to
ensure their accuracy and relevance. Through these efforts, we
monitor that the Executive complies with the Rules of
Parliament in the execution of their responsibilities to
ensure transparency and accountability to Parliament. We do
this not only to satisfy the obligation of accountability to
Parliament, but equally, to deepen public trust in our
institutions and the functioning of the state in line with
democratic ethos as entrenched in our Constitution.
We wish to reiterate that the majority of members of the
Executive do make every effort to ensure that they comply with
these rules. However, in instances where members have not
fully complied, such reasons must be communicated procedurally
to the Presiding Officers. Records will show that there is
discernible improvement in this regard.
We appeal to hon members, especially of the NCOP, that in
instances where questions should be directed to provincial
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legislatures, we should try to do so as this ensures that
accountability is sought through applicable, pointed and
relevant forums. This would shorten the turnaround time for
submission of replies and the quality thereof.
As the Executive, we want to reiterate our commitment to our
constitutional obligations to Parliament including supporting
all appropriate accountability mechanisms. Thank you very
much.
Mr S F Du TOIT: Hon Chairperson and Deputy President, I posed
the question to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans
on 02 August 2021 and that was not answered in time. I
followed it up on November 2021 as well as on 2 February 2022.
A vague answer to the question was given on 10 February 2022.
Deputy President the relevant question referred to was how
many if any weapons, ammunition, bombs, hand grenades, etc.
were handed over by uMkhonto weSizwe soldiers after 1994 and
if details of such could be provided. The Minister replied
that the Ministry did not have records of the numbers of these
items listed in question that were handed over.
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Clearly, there must be records if any weapons, bombs,
ammunition etc. were handed in were and or destroyed after
being received. My question Deputy President is that in the
light of the above and your initial answer, how will the
Minister be held accountable and what process do you suggest
must be followed to get a comprehensive answer with the
relevant figures and details within the prescribed timeframe?
Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I think to cut matters
short, I should request all members to register their
dissatisfaction with the Office of the Leader of Government
Business where they feel a bit unhappy either with the
response or the turnaround time. This will make us to avoid
talking generally, we must talk to specific problems so that
we get them resolved even for the future. So, I will request
that if hon members can, through the Chairperson, register all
their dissatisfactions that they have encountered with the
members of the Executive where they think members did not give
satisfactory answers, let us sit and look at that. That is why
there is an office of the Leader of the Government Business in
Parliament so that we can address and talk about these
matters.
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I do not think that Ministers are doing this deliberately just
to avoid accountability. We know all of us, we are accountable
here as a collective of Ministers. We are also accountable as
individuals in our different portfolios. Thank you very much.
Mr D R RYDER: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, I hear you
saying that we must refer these things to you and give you
specifics. This has been done and you referred it through to
the President. But now there was a report from Parliament
recently that indicated that there exists a problem with the
handling of Questions. According to that report, the biggest
offender, as a follow up to the question of hon Du Toit, is
the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans.
This Minister was previously a Speaker of the NA. So, it is
ironic that a person who held an office that is responsible
for the entire oversight role of Parliament or the Executive
is now the Minister delinquent member of the Executive. You
asked for specifics, so let us focus on this specific
question. You are the Leader of the Government Business and
yes, we are giving it to the Leader of the Government
Business. A specific Question 220 of 2020 by George Michalakis
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to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs and I quote:
Which municipality is regarded as the capital of the
Republic of South Africa?
The reply that came back from that Minister was:
The information requested by the hon member would be
submitted as soon as it is available.
Deputy President your Minister did not know where our nation’s
capital is. So, in preparation for today’s Question session,
we reminded her, knowing that this was going to come up, that
the answer was still outstanding, despite of the fact that she
was ridiculed at the time in the media because of this. And,
by George, she finally answered after two years. Her and her
inept team of overpaid advisors finally answered. However,
they only identified one of our country’s three capitals, but
she did answer. Yes, one out of three, well 30% is the pass
mark by the ANC’s standards.
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Here is the question Deputy President, the President seems
unwilling to take the action against these delinquent
Ministers, as the Leader of the Government Business, this now
reflects directly on you. What have you done to restore the
dignity of the Executive in spite of its members. Thank you
Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson thank you for the
question. I am happy that we are now narrowing everything to
become specific. I will request that I single out this
specific question to the hon Minister so that we deal with it.
As I have said in my reply that every time that I present a
report to the Cabinet on the performance of Ministers in
Parliament and in the NCOP in answering questions, I always
point out at Ministers that are lacking behind and write to
them and request explanation as to why. Some of the Ministers
when they answer to such enquiry, bring forward the point that
some of the questions requires them to seek information from a
municipality and from a province and that affects the
turnaround time and make it longer.
That is why I even proposed in my answer to say if a question
revolves around a certain municipality and the question is
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asked by the DA, it would always better to request councillors
of the DA to ask that question directly to that institution so
that we save time. If the question is about the province, it
is always better to ask MPLs to ask those questions there so
that here you look mainly at national departments and their
roles. This is what I said when I asked Ministers why are they
delaying. They give some of this explanation as reasons to the
delay but however with this specific question about the
Minister, I am prepared to take it up and resolve it finally,
so that we understand each other. If the Minister is on the
wrong, we correct that.
The essence of the Leader of the Business of Government is to
ensure that we do comply and you are correct to always remind
us when we are not complying in a particular area. I am here
and I am saying that I want to take up this matter because
complying here is not a matter of choice. It should be an
obligation that we carry as members of the Executive Council.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Chairperson, I will take the follow up
question for Lehihi. Deputy President, Parliament stands at
the centre of constitutional mechanism for holding the
Executive to account. Failure to respond to parliamentary
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questions therefore amounts to a direct attack and a violation
of a South African Constitution. This a practice which has
gone unabated by the President and his Cabinet. We know this
to be true as just last year in 2021, the President and his
Cabinet did not answer 175 Questions for written reply
responses.
Does the Deputy President, therefore agree that the President
and his Cabinet have no respect of the Constitution principle
of accountability as the measure put in place to hold them to
account? Thank you Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I am aware of the
questions that finally lapsed during the end of the year. It
was mainly because some Ministers did not answer those
questions within the stipulated time. They are still within a
framework of not more than 10 questions a Minister must not
answered. So that means if a Minister has got nine questions
not answered, the Minister is persuaded to answer the nine
questions but if it is above 10 questions it becomes a
problem. Then we will do all sorts of things to get the
Minister to answer.
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At the time when all the questions lapsed, Ministers were
owing responses. Now, we want to find a mechanism that we get
these questions to be answered to even they have lapsed. We
need a mechanism that will be acceptable to Parliament so that
we do not allow this practice to go on. We must apologise for
those outstanding questions that finally lapsed. Going forward
we are going to insist on the members of the Executive. Myself
and the President do not owe any questions. It might be the
Ministers who owe questions but I do not think that
constitutes a defiance, that people do not want to respect the
institution of Parliament. It is an omission that must be
corrected which I take it as a Leader of the Business
Government and I have already conveyed your disappointment
about question to the Cabinet. So, our apology. Thank you very
much.
Mr K M MMOIEMANG: Hon Chairperson, allow me to convey my
gratitude to the Deputy President for the comprehensive
response that he has given to the questions and in his
response, the Deputy President made reference to the selected
response to questions in order to have accuracy and
accountability. My question Deputy President is, have there
been an instance where a Minister raised a stipulated period
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with which to respond as a problem or as a challenge? Deputy
President, would this necessitate an approach to amend the
rules for a reply to questions to be given in 20 days instead
of 10 working days? Thank you Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, let me thank the hon
member for the question. Indeed, a number of Ministers when
asked about why are they not answering the questions on time,
they would site one or two challenges. The first challenge is
that, for them to answer that question, they must collate the
information outside their spheres of government. That means
they will have to go out, to that province to seek information
and also to the municipalities. That affects the turnaround
time.
We also advised the Ministers that if they find themselves in
such a predicament, they should write back to the Parliament
and the NCOP to indicate that they are delaying in terms of
answering the questions. They would then request some
extension of time because that is allowed. The NCOP can give
an extension of time if the reasons given are sound. So, we
have advised the Ministers to do that so that they must
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indicate to Parliament beforehand that they are unable to meet
the deadline and furnish the reasons.
In terms of Rule 249 of the NCOP, it provides that if you are
unable to answer a question for a written reply that written
reply can be converted to an oral reply. We must explore all
mechanisms to get the members of the Executive to account.
From our side, we will do our best to report to the Presiding
Officers about the work we do as the Leader of the Government
Business and where we encounter problems we are going to
report to the Presiding Officers.
The Presiding Officers have a right to impose sanctions to the
Ministers that are really not adhering to the timeframes in
terms of questions to be answered. Thank you very much.
Question 11:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Our response last month stands that we
will monitor and provide support to the Premier of the
Northern Cape province in addressing the situation of sewer
spillages in Sol Plaatje Local Municipality, as we do
elsewhere in similar cases.
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As we outlined in our written response to the hon member,
action is being undertaken to fix sewer spillages affecting
the Platfontein community. In this regard, the provincial
executive council of the Northern Cape has established an
interdepartmental committee that must identify the main causes
of the sewer spillages in Platfontein, assess the extent of
the damage and submit a costed plan with recommendations on
how this challenge will be resolved.
The Department of Water and Sanitation is also working closely
with the province on efforts to resolve sewer spillages in
Platfontein, to ensure that economic activities are not
disrupted. To this end, the province has advised that bulk
water pipes from Riverton to Kimberley are experiencing severe
leaks which have contributed to the obstruction of the R31
road and access to the surrounding areas.
The Sol Plaatje Local Municipality has since carried out
maintenance of major water leaks, improving turnaround times
for reported and observed water leaks. The Sol Plaatje Local
Municipality has since announced a water shutdown so as to
conduct much-needed repairs to the bulk water infrastructure.
During this shutdown, new equipment will be installed to curb
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contamination of the drinking water and further spillages.
This operation is intended to improve water production
efficiency and to maintain the acceptable quality of water
supply. In order to avert future spillages and damage to
infrastructure, the municipality has committed to ensuring:
Firstly, that regular inspections on water and sanitation
infrastructure is conducted;
Secondly, to conduct the refurbishment and reinforcement of
the Thlageng Dam; and
Thirdly, the upgrading of water and sanitation infrastructure
to minimise incidents of leaks, pipe bursts, sewage spillages
and sewer failures.
Furthermore, the Department of Water and Sanitation has
assisted the Sol Plaatje Local Municipality with repairs to
the Gogga Sewer Pump Station, which has significantly reduced
the volume of sewer spillages in the area, as well as repairs
to the Carters Ridge Sewer Pump Station that is still in
progress.
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As far as the maintenance of the R31 road is concerned, the
province has advised that the provincial Department of Roads
and Public Works has begun upgrading the road to ensure that
there are no further disruptions to economic activities. It is
anticipated that on completion, this intervention will provide
a permanent solution to this challenge.
As the Interministerial Committee on Water and Sanitation, we
are satisfied with the progress reported and we commit to
continue monitoring this work to ensure access to water and
sanitation services by all the residents of Platfontein. Thank
you very much.
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Deputy President, in your reply to me about the sewer and road
issues in the Sol Plaatje Municipality, you indicated that
should it become necessary for you to intervene, you would do
so yourself. At that time, the R31 road was not closed.
However, since then the R31 has now completely collapsed. From
Kimberley to Daniëlskuil and all the way to Kuruman, commuters
have been affected. Millions of rand of repair work is being
done to lift the road up by 1,5 metres from the sewerage,
instead of fixing the sewer issues. The sewer and fresh water
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leakage continues to raise by 40 millimetres per day. That
means that 64% of fresh water is also lost due to leaks, and
no matter how high they lift that road, Deputy Chairperson, it
is a temporary solution, as that sewerage and freshwater
continues to leak.
Sewerage is now also spilling to the N12 road in Kimberley.
All these sewer spillages are a huge health risk to the
community of Kimberley and Platfontein as very soon illnesses
such as cholera, E.coli, typhoid fever will be the next
disaster.
Deputy President, once again the community of Kimberley is
without water this entire weekend. Will you today give me a
date of commitment to an oversight visit as well as a date for
a public meeting open to the community of Kimberley so that
you can witness the further and total collapse of the water
and sewer system in the Sol Plaatje Municipality yourself?
Additionally, Deputy President, and more importantly, will you
give Sol Plaatje a timeframe and financial commitment to fix
the collapsing sewer system in this municipality? Thank you
very much, House Chairperson.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. The challenge of
the sewer spillages in Sol Plaatje ... I took the Minister of
Water and Sanitation, we visited the area, we saw the sewer
spillage and we committed ourselves that the Department of
Water and Sanitation will support the municipality in trying
to deal with the sewer spillages. The report that we got is
that they are dealing with the sewer spillages and the sewer
treatment plant is now working. So there is progress.
Now, according to the hon member, this problem still persists.
I will gladly set aside time to go and visit again so that I
can see the progress that has been made. Now, I am sure we
will come back and after that visit we will respond to the
National Council of Provinces ... a response through the
Office of the Chairperson, so that all members can have an
idea of what is happening in Sol Plaatje as with regard to the
sewer spillages.
With regard to the R31 road, we have been given a response
that the road is under construction. They are improving the
level of the road, increasing it by 1,5 metres and they are
working on that. The pipes ... the bulk water pipe has been
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fixed and we are assured that very soon there will be water in
Sol Plaatje and Platfontein.
So, we will also monitor this work on the road and the
availability of water as they are trying to fix the road.
However, from the reports that we have got, there is
improvement. Yes, the R31 road is closed now but there are
bypasses. There are roads that can go to either Kuruman via
Kimberley. They vary in terms of kilometres. However, it’s not
that the closure of this road can stop economic activities
because there are other routes that can be used. They might be
longer than this one. However, this is not forever. It’s a
temporary measure as they are fixing the road. I think it will
be opened. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Deputy
President, in general the state of our roads in South Africa
is in dire need of reform, especially the Moloto Corridor,
Standerton, the N2 in KwaZulu-Natal between Umgababa and
Stanger and uKhahlamba, which claims many lives each year.
Government has made many promises since that the Zuma
administration to fix these roads. I would like to know what
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is this government doing to meet the objectives and ensure
that the money being allocated to provinces reaches the
intended target in respect of, but not limited to the
abovementioned road infrastructure projects, and whether there
are any consequences imposed for not meeting these objectives.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, House Chair. Well, this
sounds like a very new question but I will attempt to try to
answer this question because a number of our roads need to be
repaired. Why so? It’s because we are hauling goods, we are
transporting coal, we are transporting manganese. We are
transporting all sorts of things, using trucks that are found
on our roads and the maintenance of these roads becomes very
expensive.
I can talk about roads in Limpopo, roads in Mpumalanga, roads
in the Northern Cape, where you see a lot of trucks that are
hauling manganese, lots of trucks that are hauling coal, lots
of trucks hauling platinum.
Now, this has been a challenge that the country has been
facing because of all these mineral resources that are found
underground and we are carrying them wherever we are sending
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them via our road infrastructure. Now, the best decision that
we have taken is to get this via rail. Change, get the trucks
off the roads so that there will be low maintenance. These
trucks are damaging our roads.
In certain instances, between KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga,
they are hauling coal to Richards Bay and they are using
trains, which is a good improvement. However, generally yes,
hon member, the state of our roads is not in a good condition
but in the main it’s because of the heavy haulage of all
mineral resources to different places in the country. This is
the main source of damage to our roads.
I am sure with time we are going to move away from road to
rail. Transport our goods though rail. It’s the cheapest form,
with fewer accidents and low maintenance of our roads.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Chairperson and thank you,
hon Deputy President for the responses to the questions and
for outlining the supporting and monitoring interventions,
which are in line with the constitutional principles of co-
operative governance, as spelt out in Chapter 3 of the
Constitution.
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Hon Deputy President, I think you’ve covered my question with
regard to the closure of the R31 road between Homevale and
Barkly West. I think my interest was around the economic
activity with regard to the manganese trucks and whether there
is an alternative route for the trucks to utilise. I think
you’ve covered my question, so thank you very much, Deputy
President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think the hon member is satisfied
with the response that I have given, that there are
alternative routes since this one, the R31, is still under
construction. Economic activities are still happening, using
those bypass ... and the road is going to be fixed. In the
shortest space of time it will be open for business. Thank you
very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Deputy
President, the R31 is a killer road and that’s a fact. It’s a
death trap for road users between Postmasburg, Daniëlskuil and
Kuruman. This road is also an access road for the manganese
and iron ore corridor. There has been no proper work done on
the R31 since it collapsed and we witness disruptions, detours
which is putting a financial burden on the road users. The
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detoured roads that the Deputy President is speaking about ...
via Vryburg, which costs about R250 for commuters to access
Kimberley. Imagine ambulances that are travelling on the R31
to access the tertiary hospitals, both in Bloemfontein and in
Kimberley. People die along the road while government just
folds its arms.
Why has it taken so long for national government to intervene
in this crisis that we are facing as road users of the R31? We
have not seen any work done. It’s simply patching the road and
after a month or so the road collapses. Can we as users of the
R31 get a commitment from the Deputy President as to whether
we are going to get a proper road on the R31 and when is this
road going to be fixed and opened. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, House Chair. Well, in
response to the hon member’s question, the road is now under
construction. In certain parts of the road, yes you are
correct, we are fixing potholes but in certain parts of the
road it is being lifted because it is under wetlands. Where it
passes there are dams alongside and ... affecting the road.
So, the road is being lifted.
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We have committed to going back to see the kind of work that
is being done there and also to monitor the sewer spillages,
and probably give feedback in terms of the work that is being
done. We are doing so because we visited the area at the
request of this House and if the House is not really satisfied
with what is happening there we will once again take a visit
to see for ourselves whether the work done on the sewer
spillages and the work done on the road is satisfactory. We
can all rest assured that we will have our road back in a good
condition. We will have the sewer spillages stopped in all
communities in Platfontein.
So, I am confident that the provincial government will try its
best to deal with the road. The national government is putting
in money, in terms of dealing with the sewer spillages. I will
go and monitor those projects and probably give the House
written feedback. Thank you very much.
Question 12:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson,
from the onset we must admit that Kusile and Medupi Power
Stations have not achieved the desired level of performance
and reliability. This is due to a combination of rational
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plant design and maintenance inefficiencies. In order to
establish for ourselves, the progress being made in correcting
the identified challenges, which in the main involves designed
effect of the power plant, the political task team on Eskom
undertook a sight visit to Kusile Power Station.
We have stressed to the management of Eskom our stance that
the defects identified at Medupi and Kusile Power Stations
must be corrected expeditiously, to avoid further project
delays and cost escalation. We can report that Eskom is making
progress in developing and influencing effective technical
solution to the major plant effects at both Medupi and Kusile
in line with the plant defect correction plan. As part of
implanting this plan, the major designed modification at all
units at Medupi resulted in a substantial improvement in the
availability and reliability of the commission units at that
power stations.
These units are now consistently achieving the designed
output, with the exception of unit 4 which suffered a
generation failure, resulting in a prolonged outage. There are
however long-term modifications, the milling plant that is
still to be carried out when maintenance outages are
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scheduled. Similar modifications have been carried out at
Kusile 1, Kusile 2 and Kusile 3 currently on the planned
outages for designed effect correction. The timeframe for the
completion of the boiler plant effect solution is October
2023, and corrections to the milling plant will be completed
after December 2027, depending on the outage availability of
units.
Hon Chair, in addition to the following, principles have been
built into the process of correcting the designed effect in
Kusile and Medupi Power Stations respectively. All defects are
dealt with in accordance with contractual conditions, liable
contractors are being held accountable, Eskom has also reached
an agreement with boiler contractors, in terms of which total
boiler defect corrections costs will be initially be split on
a 50% share basis between Eskom and boiler contractors at both
Medupi and Kusile. In order to ensure good governance and
compliance with Eskom’s commercial and procurement process,
Eskom is utilised and its legal team to redraft the contract
and to recover costs from liable contractors.
We want to take this opportunity to commend the parliamentary
oversight and work undertaken by Standing Committee on Public
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Accounts, Scopa, the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprise
and the NCOP Select Committee on Public Enterprise for
communication to keep Eskom on check, thus ensuring it
delivers on its mandate. The recent Scopa visit at Medupi and
Kusile Power Stations compliment the work of the task team on
Eskom, and ensures that collectively we will make Eskom work
for the people of South Africa and economy respectively.
We remain concern that Eskom may have somewhat inadequately
addressed Scopa recommendations after the 2019 oversight
visit, more specifically, the continued shift in terms of the
projected completion dates on the Medupi and Kusile project.
In the main, the inability of Eskom to address Scopa’s
recommendation on Medupi and Kusile Power Stations and the
shift of the completion date, was impacted by the
implementation of the COVID-19 risk adjusted strategy.
All of this resulted in interruption to construction, the
supply of technical parts, which ultimately attracted
maintenance work and meeting the completion phase. With regard
to other government and administrative recommendation,
progress is being made to ensure that systems of
accountability are enhanced. Going forward, the political task
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team on Eskom will continue to monitor the implementation of
Scopa recommendations by Eskom in order to demonstrate the
entity’s commitment to operationalise the effectiveness,
fiscal prudence and delivery on the mandate of the power
utility. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Ms T C MODISE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and good
afternoon my colleagues. Hon Deputy President, allow me to
first express my appreciation of the ongoing work done in
addressing the challenge of energy generation and supply,
including exploring alternative source of energy. The
challenge of energy generation and supply has been exacerbated
by the rampant criminality, ranging from non-payment of
electricity service even by those with means to do so.
Illegally electricity connection, vandalism and destruction of
electricity infrastructure, this contributes to unplanned
power failure, we can see even now.
Hon Deputy President, my question is, is there any integrated
plan by government department within the three spheres of
government to safeguard and protect the entire Eskom
electricity network and infrastructure using the existing
advanced technology?
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Setswana:
Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Chairperson, and thanks
for the question. Well, hon Chairperson, the entire grid, the
network that transmit the entire energy from power station to
the end-users, that grid belongs to Eskom. All the power lines
that you see, they belong to Eskom and Eskom has got a
responsibility to maintain and ensure that these power lines
are safe from all kinds of criminals. There has been no
problem in terms of the grid, except in cases where there are
disasters, but Eskom has got a capacity to fix those.
As the task team on Eskom, in trying to assist Eskom in terms
of their revenue collection, we have put aside a multi revenue
disciplinary committee which comprises of departments like
Cogta, departments like Public Works to ensure that government
departments are the ones that must be seen paying for the
electricity that they consume. I can safely say here that all
national government departments have paid their debts. We are
struggling in terms of municipalities, some are paying, but
they are defaulting their time.
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We are still dealing with that aspect of our revenue
collection. There is, of course, some growing concern from
members of the task team about the inability of certain
municipalities to pay, and therefore, I’ve heard, hon members
of this House proposing that the kind of agreement that we are
working on between Eskom and Maluti, that should also be
escalated to all other municipalities that are unable to pay,
which I think it’s a proper way to go. But all in all, there
is progress in the right direction in terms of the maintenance
of the grid, the network.
More work needs to be done at a distribution point where the
municipalities are taking over taking the electricity to
household. We must also do some work in terms of illegal
connections to remove those because that is where we lose
electricity. Thank you very much.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you, Chairperson of the council, Deputy
President, Eskom board member Busi Mavuso went to Scopa and
absorbed Eskom management of any responsibility of the mess
that Eskom is in, and laid a blame squarely at the ANC
government. Whilst blaming the ANC government is correct and
is in order, what is the presidency’s view on her refusal to
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account for the failures of the present leadership at Eskom,
taking into account that the present leadership has been in
power for the couple of years now? Is it correct, to also put
the blame of load shedding squarely on this leadership of
Eskom. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much and thanks for that
question. Well, with regards to Eskom, we’ve got a board there
that is responsible for the day to day management of the
utility, and we have got the administrative arm of the utility
that is led by the CEO. So, really as the person who is
leading the task team, I have not seen any interference either
by myself who is leading all the Ministers that are trying to
assist Eskom, I have not seen the interference of the Minister
responsible, so, concerning the interference that you spoke
about, that can be debated.
All we trying to do, is to try and help Eskom to meet its
obligation and all that we can request is that the board must
do its work and ensure that they deal with the problems that
are affecting Eskom. Let us all work together. It’s pointless
to point fingers at each other and leave the challenge. It’s
up to this generation which is confronted with this problem to
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stand up and solve this problem. We will be failing the nation
and our people if we continue pointing fingers at each other
and not resolving the problem.
So, the duty of the political task team is to try very hard to
ensure that you put a helping hand, help Eskom to deliver on
its mandate. The country must have reliable energy supply so
that we can create the necessary jobs that we need. We can
allow businesses to grow, in turn, we will be able to deal
with unemployment; we will be able to deal with poverty and
inequality. Thank you very much.
Mr M A P De BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy President,
according to reports and as well as the media, Eskom and
relevant contractors are currently sharing the cost on a 50-50
basis, to rectify this designed defects at this power plants.
Now, my question will be, why rather engineers or and the
companies that are responsible for these designed effects in
the first place, not being held accountable, and why are they
not carrying the costs to rectify these effects, and who was
responsible for approving and accepting these specific designs
in the first place? Thank you, hon Deputy President.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Well, we
have asked that question ourselves to Eskom, and the answer
that we got is that, all the different contractors have got
different arrangement and the specifications. There are
contracts where contractors are 100% liable for any defects of
the work. There are contracts that have been signed by the
leadership of Eskom then, where these contracts are silent in
terms of any defect that will happen, who should take the
responsibility.
Now, Eskom leadership has been trying to negotiate on those
contracts where these contracts are silent in terms of the
responsibility of any defect that is incurred in these power
stations, who should be responsible? Now finally, the fact of
the matter by allowing some of the contractors, especially,
the boiler contractors and Eskom, to share the cost of the
defect, 50-50. But all other contracts that have been signed
they’ve got a clause that says, for any defect, the contractor
is liable. So, that is the situation, and we thought that for
the sake of progress, we should proceed that way. Thank you
very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chair, am I audible?
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, you are.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you very much, Chair. Chair, both Judge
President Raymond Zondo in the Zondo report, as well as the
board member, Busisiwe Mavuso, squarely laid for the mess at
Medupi and Kusile Power Stations at the feet of the ANC. The
same is that the first step towards fixing a problem, is by
acknowledging that it exists. My question to you, Deputy
President is, will you acknowledge that the ANC must take
responsibility, and will you acknowledge that the ANC’s policy
of cadre deployment is directly responsible for the fact that
poor workmanship was allowed to take place at Medupi and
Kusile Power Stations? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson,
from where I’m standing I think we can only acknowledge
responsibility of the ANC government in the running of this
power utility, Eskom. But I must alert the hon member that, at
every point in the life of Eskom there has been a CEO, there
has been directors that are responsible for day to day running
of the power utility. Ever since, there has been a board that
is responsible.
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Up until we are told, what was the responsibility of those
structures, the board itself, the administration or the
directors that are there, for this crisis that we are facing
today, because what I can tell you is that, what I see in
Eskom, is the lack of maintenance of this power station, is
the cost over-run of the two new build, that is Medupi and
Kusile, who have incurred a lot of over run, and there are
designed problems which it was supposed to be the
responsibility of the engineers that are working in Eskom as
well as the CEO at that time, to ensure that we avoid these
unnecessary costs and to avoid these unnecessary defects.
However, this is not a way of running away from responsibility
because the government of the day is the government of the
ANC. There are people who have been appointed in different
positions in this power utility to do specific jobs. Now, I
can tell you that at a certain point, these people that have
been appointed, they have failed the government, but I said
that there is no use to point fingers at each other, but let
us fix the problems.
The problem is that we are faced with aging infrastructure
that we must decommission and find alternative energy
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generation mechanism, especially concentrating on renewable
energy, which we are making progress. Currently, we have
connected over 1 500 megawatts of energy into the grid, coming
from the renewables. This is not going to be a permanent
problem, we are going to get out of this problem, but it needs
all our efforts and our positive mind set. Thank you very
much, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy
President. That, hon members, takes us to the end of questions
directed to the Deputy President. I will therefore take this
opportunity to thank the Deputy President and all the special
delegates for availing themselves. So, I thought it will also
be important just to say apologies due to ... [Inaudible] ...
failure, though MaNgwenya was turning handy to hold the fort.
Thank you very much, MaNgwenya. Hon delegates, that concludes
the business of the day.
The Council adjourned at 16:19.
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