Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 02 Dec 2021


No summary available.






Watch the video here: PLENARY (HYBRID)

The Council met at 14:02.


The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.




The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, allow me to remind all delegates that rules apply, and the processes for the hybrid sitting equally apply. Allow me to also indicate that before we proceed, we need to make the following announcement. Delegates who are physically in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber’s system. They must switch off the sound of their gadgets and ensure that the microphone on their gadgets are muted and remain muted at all times. They must use the floor microphones and they must wear face masks at all times. They must occupy seats marked for that purpose and at all times maintain social distancing and let me indicate that this refers to a distance of at least 1,5m from each other.

Delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak or address the chair. Any delegate who wishes to speak must use the “raise hand” function – I am sure by now members are familiar with this. All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chatroom. Let me also indicate that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. Before we proceed to questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister of Human Settlements, the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture, as well as the Minister of Water and Sanitation to the House. In case where the Minister is not present, there will be a Deputy Minister, and this would be indicated accordingly.

Further, I would like to make the following remarks. The time for reply by Ministers to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. And the member who asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes and the time for a supplementary reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question that was asked or posed. I would now take this opportunity to call on the Minister of Human Settlements to respond to Question 229 asked by the hon D Dangor. I am indicating that this question to the Minister is the question on incomplete housing projects. Hon Minister?



Cluster 2

Question 229:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Chairperson of the NCOP, let me greet the hon members and thank the hon Dangor for the question. Indeed, we have done an audit as the Department of Human Settlements in terms of incomplete houses and blocked projects. I must indicate that the work is not yet completed because what we are finding in various provinces is that an incomplete project would have different reasons why it is incomplete at that level. We find some of them incomplete at the very basic level such as foundation level, others will have walls, while others will be left incomplete at roof level.

Part of what we are doing now is to firstly quantify the integrity of the structures that are there. If it’s an incomplete house that is left at the foundation level, will that foundation be able to carry the structure as we continue building. And if it’s left incomplete at roof level - and we complete it, we should quantify whether its integrity from the time it was left will be able to carry the roof. So, the quantification in terms of the integrity of the structures and also the cost associated with it and whether in those incomplete houses, money has been spent or what were the reason why those houses are incomplete – so, that work is ongoing.

Our priority now is to agree to start working on those houses and to be able to complete them. We have agreed at the Minister and member of executive councils, Minmec, meeting, together with the MECs that we are going to put this as a programme of three years to be able to complete all those backlogs of houses that are incomplete but while dealing with the projects that we have. That’s where we are. The issue is also around the companies that have registered in terms of their tenders that has defaulted - this will be in different stages as we are verifying information now.

There has been instances where law enforcement agencies based on the reports by the Auditor-General and what we are required in terms of the Public Finance Management Act would be already in court – and others are at various stages. So, that work is ongoing as well and we will report publicly once we are confident about that. I can report that there are two cases already in public. Others will know that this specifically relates to projects that are unfinished - which we call unfinished projects. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much, Minister, and thank you for your response. What is the role of the national department in the event that the province or the municipality refuses to act against transgressors? Is the department liable and to blacklist such transgressors? I thank you very much, Minister.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson and thank you, hon Dangor. We have a responsibility because when you look in terms of their appropriation, you will find that resources are appropriated to national departments and therefore transferred to the provinces or appropriated under our budget. So, we do have a responsibility on the basis of Public Finance Management Act. Firstly, we have responsibility in terms of providing information to the Auditor-General. When we do our monitoring and evaluation and we find that there is wrongdoing, we have an obligation to report to the Auditor-General so that they can assist us with the audit.

Secondly, we do have the responsibility if we suspect that there could be something wrong to report to law enforcement agencies. So, it is not entirely the responsibility of the municipalities or the provinces, but as a national department where there has been wrongdoing and consequences should be taking place, we have an obligation. I must say, hon Dangor, that part of the challenge in terms of blacklisting of companies is that we are finding it to be a bit tedious and a long process, and we will be engaging with National Treasury around these issues. It is a process that one cannot wake up today and say that somebody should be blacklisted. That is why sometimes there would be a public outcry that a certain company has done business and has defaulted, but it has been found somewhere again operating because it has not yet been blacklisted. My understanding is that that process to blacklist can even take up to a year to be finalised because it’s prescriptive in order to provide the company to respond and all that - so, it is not an automatic process. Thank you very much.

Mr I M SILEKU: Good afternoon, Chairperson and welcome back to South Africa. I like your shirt and I hope it was bought in South Africa. [Laughter.] Let me also congratulate the Minister on her appointment. Minister, a lot of beneficiaries have lost faith in the department due to the fact that contractors get paid for work not done and projects takes years to be completed. The poor and the marginalised continue to be taken for granted while contractors continue to be paid millions without building of any houses.

Apart from blacklisting, defaulting and in many cases corrupt contractors, shouldn’t the public deserve better by having accountability from their elected representatives? Would it be unfair to request public representatives to apologise and resign for failing residents and will you as the Minister be willing to lead from the front and push for this? Thank you very much, Minister.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Sileku, thank you for flagging it. I think we have to start here with the issue of beneficiaries. No one can stand in public and justify where beneficiaries were supposed to have received houses and they do not have houses. Since I have been elected the Minister of Human Settlements three months ago, I have publicly visited provinces - seven out of nine provinces. I have visited projects to see for myself what is happening on the ground and hearing from citizens themselves and hearing from contractors themselves and also interacting with the provinces and the municipalities. I can safely say to you that we have agreed as a department that one of the things that is going to assist us is to have a beneficiary list that is transparent - that emphasises accountability.

A beneficiary list, for example, hon Sileku, is what we are working on in terms of digitisation. You for example, as a Member of Parliament, when you go to a community in your constituency and find a citizen who has been registered to benefit from an RDP house but have not yet benefited, you can simply take his ID number and punch it and establish where that person is in the process – that is what we are working on in terms of digitisation. We are ensuring that going forward. There is transparency and there is accountability regarding what needs to be done so that we can build confidence.

There is no justification why we should have a senior citizen who is 96 years old still waiting for the RDP house having registered in 1993. This is one of the things that we have agreed with the MECs that we must tackle and it’s something that we must deal with. And I don’t think the issue here is for me to speak about political heads to resign. If people have been found to have done wrong, then they should take responsibility. I don’t know why you would want me to take responsibility if indeed I’ve only been here for three months. You have to be able to say, “Minister Kubayi, since you’ve been here, what have you done?” And then judge me based on my responsibility at the time I am at the helm of the portfolio. So, that cannot be a blanket approach. This is about having to account for your work, and what you have done - including equally in the provinces and in the municipalities.

The last thing I want to speak about is on contractors that have defaulted. I agree with you – some of the people have called us and advised us to ensure that those who have defaulted in our communities we therefore need to go public about their names - for example, they have been given contracts and they did not fulfil their responsibility as contractors. Those are some of the things we will have to try and put in place, against all odds.

My view is that if it means we should go and take those contractors’ personal belongings, so be it. If they lose their houses themselves, it is fine because they have taken from the most vulnerable. I have always said to my team in the department as well that these crimes they committed are not victimless – it’s orphans, it’s senior citizens and its widows that are left destitute, and they have my support there. I am saying let’s work together as public representatives to hold everybody accountable. I would do my part to hold those who do business in the portfolio accountable and that’s why we want to ensure that even contract management is tightened. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, please indicate if service providers are being used to facilitate the role of middleman between municipalities and contractors or tenderpreneurs? And if their involvement may have contributed to incomplete projects?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, hon Du Toit. I will have to be specific – I haven’t tangibly come across something like that. Those are some of the things you will find on the streets – where people make those statements. But there is nothing tangible where we can be able to say that this is what has been done. As I said earlier on, we are actually quantifying costs around these projects but secondly, in terms of the integrity of the structures. Where there are contractors linked to projects, for example, money has been lost but the contractors have been paid, obviously consequence management will follow. We will actually approach law enforcement agencies to assist us with investigations once we finalise the work.

One of the things I am very clear about is that we do not want to see ourselves as a department focused on investigations instead of implementing and delivering houses. So, my responsibility as the Minister of Human Settlements is to be able to provide all the services. I have colleagues in the security cluster and their job is to assist us with law enforcement. Our duty is to collate this information and pass it over so that they can be able to do analysis and do their investigations to assist us because we do not have the capacity to do what the hon member may be suggesting that we do. Thank you very much.

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you Chairperson of the NCOP. Minister, there are millions of poor and vulnerable people facing significant challenges in accessing adequate housing as well as other basic services in South Africa. Housing projects are often blocked, delayed and are not completed on time with contractors building houses and failing to deliver quality housing which does not report compliance. Does the department include in its plans a strategy of doing away with tenders permanently and building up the capacity of department so that it builds its own housing for its people? What is the Minister planning to do with this? I thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Motsamai. I think the first thing is that if we are to talk about doing away with tenders, we need to have a procurement process. Remember part of why tenders are there is because they are part of procurement to be able to ensure that we fulfil what the Constitution requires of us. We ensure that when we procure as a state we can do that by being firm, transparent and actually just - where we are able to say transparently that this is a service that we are getting for the following amount – that is the first issue. We will have to find a mechanism.

Currently there is no mechanism in place that will allow us to go out and get people to build houses on behalf of us as government in the manner that they are doing. But again we need to look at it this way, hon Motsamai, tenders give people an opportunity to be service providers who provide services, and it is part of building an economic cycle where we have real entrepreneurs. Because we would have people who are qualified as engineers and as developers as the value chain of housing is quite big. When those people come back after completing their studies – it is not everybody who should go and look for a job - some of them would be business people, start companies and hire people in order to provide services. Being in that system – providing and doing tenders allows for the ecology of working and service providing within the country. This actually supports the economic growth of a country. We shouldn’t see tendering only.

There have been issues around corruption and fraud with regard to compliance. That is why we should allow law enforcement agencies to do deal with. The issue of the benefit for society needs to be emphasised. Similarly, I do not believe that the Department of Human Settlements should be the one that should build houses. Ours should be policy-making and create an environment where we are able to provide the services and create an opportunity for those who can build. What we need as capacity in the department is project management, contract management and policy development and doing monitoring and evaluation. Once we have that in place, then we will have amsystem in the department that works for us, and that will hold accountable those are given contracts to provide services.

We understand that housing is important, and we want to make sure that our communities – our residents, as this is a constitutional obligation. We have to provide houses and shelter to the indigents – that is what the Constitution requires from us as government. In doing that, we have to find mechanisms to be able to do it in a more transparent and just way. Thank you very much, Chairperson.


Question 224:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I must say that I did write formally to the Questions Office, through my office, requesting clarity why this question has been asked under Human Settlement. This report about Water and Sanitation could be that the member wrote the question at the time when the department was still Human Settlement, Water and Sanitation. Currently, I am responsible for Human Settlement, I do not have authority nor mandate for Water and Sanitation. Thank you.


Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, to the hon Minister, I am aware that the report may refer to the Department of Water and


Sanitation, but the Human Rights Commission report was requested in 2013 by the DA due to a problem in Joe Slovo Park and Majwe Masweu. The problem was caused by the Department of Human Settlements by allowing the municipality to award unserviced stands for political point scoring and then ignoring and forgetting these beneficiaries. The same has now been done in Winburg in the same municipality. Unserviced stands handed out just before the elections by a municipality that does not have funds to service these stands. The municipality has given these residents empty stands and they are left with bucket toilets, dry taps and candles and are forgotten about until the next elections, or as in the case with Joe Slovo Park for more than 15 years and your department is nowhere to be seen.



You are all ignoring the human rights violation taking place right under your noses. The department’s mandate, and I quote, “... is to facilitate the creation of sustainable human settlements and improve quality of household life.” Yet, you are building slums and not communities. You are handing out unserviced stands, and that is the reason why these communities don’t have water. So, the cause is your department and not Water and Sanitation. So, as a new Minister I would like to ask you, what will you, as the Minister, do to put an


end to this exploitation that is happening in Winburg and Majwe Masweu at this very moment? Thank you, Chair.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I am going to answer but I do need to highlight as I said that I am doing it under protest with violations of the Rules because the primary question has nothing to do with what the member is saying. It is not linked to it for me to be prepared. I am saying that so that hon members know that we still have to comply with the Rules of the House.



In relation to serviced stands and unserviced stands, let us start here: Human Settlement is a concurrent function. So, there are responsibilities that are related to national where we do policy directives and then there will be responsibilities that are related to provinces and there will be responsibilities that are related to municipalities.



In terms of declaration of townships or settlements it is a mandate of the municipalities and not the mandate of the Minister of Human Settlements, hon member. So, the Minister of Human Settlements cannot go to a municipality where a municipality wants to designate an area that is under their


land for human settlement and try to stop it because it’s


their mandate and within their prerogative.



What we do, through intergovernmental relations and utilising the Demographic Transition Model, DTM, model, is that we go assist and guide municipalities and actually flag challenges in what they are doing, but you cannot say they can’t do it, as a Minister. There is no legal basis for me to be able to go and stop a municipality from fulfilling what is in their own legal framework and laws.



What the hon member is talking about is not within the legal framework of what Human Settlement is and that is why we initially asked the Questions Office to indicate to the member that the question is outside the mandate of the department, and I think that he insisted that this question must be in.

Thank you.



Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, let me start by thanking the Minister for the response, but also indicate that we share the sentiments as the Minister. I think with all transparency, hon Michalakis should not have actually asked the question, Chair, but I do not actually have a follow-up question. Thank you very much.


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, the member is supporting my protest that I have been treated unfairly.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Point of order, Chair. Chair, point of order.






Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chair, last time I was here in this House you were the Chair and you determined the Rules of the House, not the Minister or other members. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Now, let’s


call on hon Moletsane.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Chairperson, I will take hon Moletsane’s question. It’s hon Zandamela. Chairperson?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, please proceed.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Chairperson, to the Minister, to which extent has the Masilonyana Municipality implemented the recommendations of the SA Human Rights Commission? Thank you, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If you can just repeat the question again?



Mr S ZANDAMELA: To which extent has the Masilonyana Municipality implemented the recommendations of the SA Human Rights Commission? That is the question, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, I think Minister Senzo Mchunu will in the best place to answer that question. Thank you.



Mr I NTSUBE: Can I proceed, Chair?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you very much hon Chairperson of the Council and the Chief Whip. Minister, are there any mechanisms that the department has put in place to ensure that provinces implement integrated human settlements with all necessary basic services like water and sanitation where the department builds houses? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chair, similarly, the question is not related to the primary question, but I will


answer. The department in terms of its work has identified ... [Interjections.]



Mr D R RYDER: Point of order, Chair.



THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What’s your point of order, hon Ryder?



Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, once again the Minister is trying to deflect a question which is directly related to the fact that we have integrated as far as the theme of her department’s responsibility. An integrated includes having services she must ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your point of order?



Mr D R RYDER: The Minister must answer the questions and not deflect, Chair.



Ms D G MAHLANGU: But she is answering, hon Ryder.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]


Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Ryder, you are out of order.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will proceed.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: Point of order, Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your point of order, Mthethwa?



Mr E M MTHETHWA: You see, Chair, my point of order is that the Minister is being asked questions that are not in the Order Paper here. She raised that in the beginning that this 2013 question does not belong to her department. So, I don’t think whatever follow-up that comes up from the primary question will be out of order. That is why maybe the other speaker said they have no question because the primary question falls off. I think that everybody who is doing some follow-up on this question is out of order because the Minister had to now think on something that is not written as a question that she should have been prepared on. That is why I feel that this question must fall off as it is out of order.



THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Members are making my life a bit difficult because all we are trying to do is to allow for


questions to be posed and for answers to emanate from the Minister. If members are not happy or if any individual is not happy that is something else; a different matter altogether.

So, I am going to request the Minister to please respond so that we move on.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chair. As I said, I will respond to the question. I think I do need to flag that when we come here we also observe the Rules and we expect that we should be treated within the Rules of the Council.



Now, the issue around integrated human settlements is something that the hon member would be aware that as the department we have taken ... [Inaudible.] ... and that is why we are no longer called the housing department but the Department of Human Settlements. In the integrated manner we have actually in the process ensured that we have grants that respond to ... Let me start with the Human Settlements Development Grant, HSDG, that is responsible for ensuring that we can provide services in terms of our Breaking New Ground, BNG, but also within the urban areas where we have Urban Settlements Development Grant, USDG, that is providing for


your bulk infrastructure for us to be able to formalise structures together with the municipality.



Those grants are directed especially the metros and you would find that again as part of that integrated work, especially in the mining communities, we will be able to provide. Such a grant responds to ensuring that there is integrated human settlements within those.



Again, the Informal Settlements Upgrading Grant that we have is allocated to all provinces through our appropriations allocations. We are able to ensure that we provide the basic services as Human Settlements. So, in working together between ourselves, municipalities and provinces, in a financial year we have provinces putting together their business plans and then submit to national to say these are our plans in terms of development of integrated human settlements. We then look at those that comply with policies and we allocate allocated funds and ensure that those are also approved by the Minister. That is what we use to actually track progress and ensure that we are monitoring what is happening and the implementation thereof.


Similarly, we do the same with the metros. They put together their business plans and we also approve them based on the budget and priority areas. I must say, Chair, that one of the things we have identified as a gap is that we currently have the HSDG allocating only 2% for bulk infrastructure in provinces that do not have metros. One of the things that we are starting to do is to review our grant conditions so that we can increase the amount that is needed to be able to respond to that, especially for rural provinces so that we can see the upgrading of infrastructure in those provinces. That is part of the work, and I hope I have been able to — It’s quite extensive work that we are doing. We can be able to provide even more details but that is how far I can go to comply with time. Thank you very much, Chair.



Question 230:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, indeed, the department has a number of projects nationally that have stalled due to a lack of suitable land for human settlements to develop in those areas. To name just a few, - and members would have picked it up in the recent news around the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa PRASA, central line relocation project, in the City of Cape Town, Mbekweni in Paarl,


Alexandra redevelopment project in Johannesburg, Duncan Village redevelopment programme in Buffalo City.



You would know that some of these projects have started but are not yielding the results that we want because the number of people versus the size and the land we have is not equivalent. So, as we do the relocation for example, if you look at Duncan Village, we realized that we need more land and the process continue. Sometimes they don’t stop completely but they move in a slower pace as we acquire more land. So, those are some of the things.



The department utilises Housing Development Agency, HDA, that continues to assist us in acquiring land. This also – based on what we are doing together in the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, on Land Reform, that is chaired by the Deputy President, David Mabuza, we are able to continuously look at that. For example, land parcels that are in the hands of the state, that needs to be transferred to human settlement through the HDA, for purposes of human settlements. So, that is part of the work.



The question also asks about Cape Town. We have identified land for resettlement, as outlined above, including persons


who occupied state land in Cape Town, communities that are settled along the railway lines such as Philippi and surrounding areas, Driftsands Nature Reserve and others. Some of the other targeted informal settlements would include areas around the airport precincts. Khayelitsha comprising of Tsunami informal settlement, Vuk’uzenzele, Nxaxa, Barcelona, Europe, Lusaka informal settlement, Kanana informal settlement, Thabo Mbeki Village, Victoria Mxenge, Silvertown, BM Section in Khayelitsha and Taiwan informal settlement.

Thank you very much Chair.



Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you very much hon Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you very much for your response. Is there any process in resolving the issue of land so that the department can continue with this very important housing project?



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon member. Certainly, there is quite a lot of work as I said, that is being taken by the IMC on Land Reform and Agriculture. Where we continue to look at the land that is owned by the state and we are transferring it.



Currently, we have been having areas where there is an identified land within a particular municipality, and when we


look for owners we find that there isn’t an owner. Therefore, we go out to public for the expropriation of that land as it currently doesn’t have anyone occupying it. So, we do those multi approach interventions to assist in terms of ensuring that there is human settlement land.



Part of what is challenging is when we find people that want to put themselves where it is dangerous. And, we are therefore not able to respond urgently because it involves the local government, the municipality. If it’s a land along the railway lines or under a power line, it would then involve other state organs to be part of that process. Even for evictions, sometimes we would have to go to court to get them to move out so that we are able to protect their lives.



The issue around land is a critical one to ensure human settlements, but it needs all of us, both as government and communities and all political parties to work together to be able to resolve it. Thank you very much.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, what measures are in place to assist municipalities from illegal occupation of identified and or unidentified land by opportunistic people before such land has been availed legally


and the necessary infrastructure is in place, since premature occupation might stall projects?



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Hon du Toit, I agree with you, the issue of illegal occupation does cause regression and challenges in terms of our work. Sometimes people hear that this land is identified for human settlement and they go and put themselves. By the time you want to put bulk infrastructure, it’s difficult because they are not sitting aligned and we have to relocate them. And it costs a lot. It even delays the allocation thereof.



Municipalities have the law in place that allows them to evict within a particular time. Sometimes we are seeing delays in municipalities to be able to evict those people within that required legal framework, which causes the delays and the challenges thereof. We are as well saying that it doesn’t mean we must do it within the confines of the law. Because sometimes you find two extremes. Firstly, where you find municipalities seize people illegally occupying land and do nothing. Secondly, on the other extreme hand, you would find the municipality not following proper procedure to be able to do what is required by law in terms of evictions. So, we do


appeal that there is a framework, there are also laws that are in place including previous judgements that we use as precedents to be able to look at how we should respond to this, and municipalities are encouraged to follow that process.





Mr I M SILEKU: Enkosi kakhulu.





Minister, land is a very topical issue and unfortunately, I will have to also ask about that particular one. The issue of land for housing has been used for politicking while the backlog continues to increase. There have been a number of invasions in the City of Cape Town both on private and public land. Projects have been affected by inversions and can no longer proceed in the manner envisaged. This is to the detriment of people who have been waiting for houses and priority has to be given to the people on the waiting list.



There is a trend whereby many desperate people who are awaiting for houses settle in illegally on land earmarked for housing, and in an attempt to jump the que. And be prioritised due to the fact that they are on the land already.


What is the department doing to support especially rural municipalities in making sure that firstly, they protect their land, secondly, they remove these illegal occupants?





Enkosi kakhulu.



UMPHATHISWA WEZENTLALO YOLUNTU: Enkosi kakhulu, Sileku ohloniphekileyo.





I do agree and as I said earlier on that communities need to understand this. That when we invade land, - even if it’s meant for human settlement, there are consequences. Whether the land is privately owned and government owned, there will be consequences, and I will come to that in detail.



Part of the issues that some of the community members will raise, - I had an interaction with the backyard dwellers in Soweto just before the elections while doing my election work. They stopped me and say “Minister we would want you to address us.” The major issue for them was that because they remained discipline, waiting for their time based on the beneficiary list they are tending to be casualties because as government


we are rushing to provide solutions to those that are illegally occupying land and we are making them to jump the que. That’s what the backyard dwellers were raising with me. Which I sort of agreed with to say, we need to find mechanisms as the national department to ensure transparency on out beneficiary list. To ensure that the people who are supposed to benefit are the ones that are benefiting. That is why when we talk about beneficiary list we want to ensure that everybody who is there knows their numbers. So that we are able to equitably, transparently allocate the places.



The land issue is equally important because you find that some of them who go and occupy these lands ... For example, part of what we are faced with as a challenges in Duncan Village is that, as you are decanting people moving them from the transitional period so that they can go into their houses. For example, some of them did not have identification and they are not known in these communities.



Someone would have received an Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, house and they rent it out and then move into this area. It’s not only what the Department of Human Settlement can resolve, it needs all of us as a community. We would do policies as a department, but we need to put in place


the systems that supports the redistribution of land for human settlements. And when we get it, we put the infrastructure that is needed so that we can support the areas.



In supporting the municipalities, as I said to hon Du Toit, in the municipalities there are laws, and precedents that you can utilise as a municipality to be able to protect your land for rightful purposes. Because once it’s illegally occupied then it’s a problem. You are going to battle with issues of relocation. The Constitution says if you are going to relocate people you need to find them an alternative accommodation... [Inaudible.] ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, we have missed the last part of your response.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Chair, can you hear me?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was just saying that you were cut off and we could not hear what you were saying as you concluded. Just repeat the two to three sentences.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: My apologies, Chair ... [Inaudible.] ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are experiencing problems with the audio and I am sure the Minister will come back to us. The fourth question comes from hon Mokause.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Chairperson, I am going to ask the question on behalf of hon Mokause. Is the Minister there?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The best we can do is to continue.



Mr A ARNOLDS: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the solution to the housing crisis is directly related to the land question. Unless all government departments make the provision of land a priority. There shall always be claims of shortages and lack of residential land while informal settlements continue to grow in our communities.



Minister, please provide a time frame of when vacant land and underutilised land will be made available for housing and resettlement of our communities?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, I am sure you will take this opportunity just to say a word or two in conclusion in


relation to the last question and then proceed to respond to hon Arnold’s question? Please proceed.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chair, I hope you can hear me. I think the questions are linked. On the issue around the support for municipalities, - I was repeating the fact that there are court judgements which are precedents, that can be used by municipalities to be able to protect their land. So, we must be able to encourage municipalities to do that. because it wouldn’t be easy for the Minister to go and protect the land that belong to the municipality.



On the issue of government and land, government has taken a decision to say, there is land that is owned by government and it is allocated for agricultural purposes so that we can continue to have food security. But there would be land that is identified and that is currently in the process to be transferred through HDA, by government and that is land owned by government for a particular purposes of human settlements.



Hon Arnolds, what we need to continue to emphasise to our communities is that is important not to go and occupy land illegally. For example, sometimes they go and occupy private


land thinking that it is government land and when they are evicted it causes a problem. Some of them are being sold land and sites for an amount of R20 000 – R50 000. Which is money most of these communities don’t have. So, we continue to advocate proper processes and proper channels of acquiring sites by communities because they are finding themselves at the hands where sometimes, - somebody will go and evict them because that is their land or property. Therefore, we find ourselves at the back foot having to find mechanisms of alternative accommodation for them. We must work together to be able to resolve this. It is not an easy challenge but we can achieve more if we are doing it together and working.

Thank you, Chairperson.



Question 208:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. And thank you, hon Du Toit, around this question. I do confirm that persons who meets the criteria is outlined in terms of our various housing subsidy programme in the National Housing code are prioritised in terms of our work.

That’s important. But also, need to re-emphasise that it’s not automatic. So, everybody that meets the requirement, we have to do due diligence, a system against starter data basis in


terms of income and all those things. So, it’s important. And


also, their financial viability.



But again, one of the things I want to highlight around delivery of alternative, we are already doing that, and I am seeing this question in two folds, hon member. I am seeing it as an issue where you are asking whether do we have to continuously provide RDP or BNG. And I want to say, when we look at our models that we have currently in terms of the grounds and support, we are providing it different. Those who have and are saying give us service stands and we will build for ourselves. We are already doing that. We have already provided more than 10 000 across the country, though the programme started a bit late compared to the others. We will see that we do provide low-cost housing as an alternative but equally seeing this as a part of where you are talking about alternative building technologies, and currently we are looking at that because I think one of the things that is important for us is to be able to bring technology on how we do work.



Globally, there are technology innovative ways of building houses. Though the feedback we are getting from communities is that the majority of our communities still believe in brick-


and-mortar. So, they are not more receptive to the new building technologies, which is something that we need continuously advocate for because it takes shorter time to build utilising new technologies. But also in other instances, it becomes quite cheaper. But for now in terms of the solutions in the country, we do not have cheaper ways of building these alternative housing products because the materials are still being important.



So, part of what we will have to resolve, and we have agreed to work with Africa Free Trade Agency and National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, to look into this together with bringing in the SA Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, as an entity that deals with innovation to support us in bringing new technologies in the country.



But finally, based on the constitutional mandate, we are obligated as government to provide shelter for most vulnerable of our communities. This means those who are vulnerable, the indigent, child-headed households, the senior citizens remains our mandate to had to provide. So, whether we go and move to service stands and other things these category of people will


continue to have to provide the shelter for because it’s a


constitutional mandate to us. Thank you, Chair.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Thank you, hon Minister, for your first answer. Hon Minister, it’s evident that the housing backlog is huge and it might take years to get up to date. It’s like a dog chasing its tail at this stage.

Corruption is in the order of the day and most of these standard projects. Minister, I want to know if your department has calculated the costs of the failed housing projects, and I want to know if it’s still feasible to continue with these initiatives seeing that the South African fiscus is dry? Thank you, Minister.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Yes, we continue to do as I spoke about unfinished and unblocked projects earlier on. We continue to quantify. Currently, we are sitting at around 1,9 million units that are under the unfinished projects. The issue around continuing, and I think I spoke about it in my last response. But just to reiterate, yes, we have to continue. It’s a constitutional mandate. The Constitution request of us as government to provide shelter for the most vulnerable and indigent communities. So, child-headed households, your senior


citizens who cannot provide a shelter for themselves, it’s a constitutional right and obligation on us as government to provide. So, we need to continue.



In terms of sustainability where we agree with you, hon member, is that with the constrain of the fiscus, that’s why interventions such as provision of service stands for those who can afford to build for themselves is critical because you have seen where we have provided RDP houses and when you go there after five, six years, for example, the entire communities space have changed. You will never even see a single RDP. That tells you that, the people were not looking for RDP, but were looking for a land to be able to build for themselves.



Similarly, we have identified those who are in the category, for example, somebody who will be moving in terms of migration moving from the rural areas to urban areas to work. When they arrive in the city, they are now longer looking for a house to own. That’s why we started to provide low-cost rentals for those categories. Equally with low-cost opportunity for those we call missing middle. So, integrated approach for different need in terms of citizens remains a key solution that we must support. Thank you very much, Chair.


Mr T APLENI: Chairperson, given the current backlog, which is currently face by the Human Settlements, which is estimated that it would take more than 100 years to clear, does the department have the capacity and political will to offer alternative housing models, and while considering amendments to the criteria of Human Settlements, can the Ministry consider prioritising ownership of RDP houses by a fair representation of women, that is at 50% allocation and more especially persons living with disabilities?. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Apleni. I am not so sure where the 100 years comes from. We will have to do some statistics together ourselves but we will take it off line so that I can check the backlog.



Let’s me start with the last part of his question, the people living with disabilities, I agree. I said, we discuss this with the Ministers and Members of Executive Council, Minmec, for example, we have about in the Housing Subsidy system, HSS, in terms of our beneficiaries list registry, about 100 000 of our people living with disabilities on our system and I said to the team, we can just take a political decision, we can


take a decision to say these are the people we should prioritised in all the allocations. So, we are doing a breakdown, we are locating them where they are so that we prioritise them because it’s something that we should be able to do. It’s easy. It can be done. It’s doable. So, that’s the first part of it.



Secondly, in terms of beneficiaries’ majorities of beneficiaries indeed are women, hon member and is based on the registered people. So, it becomes difficult to say I would just take only women that are registering because the requirement is that everybody who registers must be a to get a house, especially on the bases of first come first serve because it might not make sense if tomorrow I prioritise a young woman who is 21-year-old over a senior citizen, a man who is 76-years-old.



So, some of these decisions how we have to take them, would have to assist us in terms of ensuring that we do not leave those vulnerable people outside but agree in terms of being able to focus. And equally, for example, we took a decision just on the side, we do take such decision such as, for example, 40% set aside for women in the sector in terms of participation. So, those things are taken but you have got to


apply your mind, go through systematically and see the implication thereof of the decision that you are taking. To say, yes, there is a political will to change the landscape in terms of service delivery, the time it takes to do things and actually being able to take the decision, that I can say too.



Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Greetings to the Minister and everybody present. Hon Minister, thank you for the response that you have given to this question. Hon Minister, we know that there has been a decrease in the budget of different departments because of the financial position of the country. Hon Minister, how does this cut of the budget affect the department in providing housing? Thank you very much, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. And thank you very much, hon Nkosi. I think the first thing is to also indicate that, yes, the budget cuts are negatively on us though we do understand the conditions and the contrary this has done



Firstly, we have done an evaluation. We will have a shortfall of about 62 000 units in terms of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, based on the budget allocation. Whether we


will recover the budget later is something else and that’s why we are looking at creative ways and mechanism that we can be able to close the gap. One, against in terms of making sure that we do partnerships that can come on board that reduces this burden on us as government.



So, when we do our budget next year, we will be able to announce, we are embarking on a very aggressive approach to bring in partners that can come and work with us to provision of Human Settlements that will ease the burden from our suppliers.



Secondly, another thing House Chair that I need upfront acknowledge so that is not like we are National Treasury, we ourselves as the portfolio and the sector have not been performing up to the scratch that we needed to, I must say upfront. So, we had incidences where money had to be rolled over or money had to be taken back from us as a sector and part of what we are doing now with the MECs starting from today we were sitting as well, our first Minmec, and we had go through the performance we have agreed before we get to December again holidays.


We are going to have another meeting just to zoom into the performance and see how do we deal with recovery in ensuring that going forward we do not see money lost by the sector because the need out there from our communities from the people is very strong.



People are looking forward to receiving their houses, to receiving their services based on what our mandate is and there isn’t a room for us to be able to return money to National Treasury. Thank very much, Chairperson.





Mnr I M SILEKU: Baie dankie, agb Minister. Minister, ongelukkig is die uitrol van behuisingsprojekte ...



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: My apologies, can I put my translation first. That’s the only language, Chairperson, I’m still struggling with.



Mr I M SILEKU: I will be very slow.








Mnr I M SILEKU: Minister, ongelukkig geskied die uitrol van behuisingsprojekte baie stadig. Dit is so stadig soos ’n skilpad.





Minister Sisulu told this House that, she was moving towards service stands in service sites. You have also mentioned the same.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Sorry Chairperson, there is no translation.



Mr I M SILEKU: No, it’s okay. No, is fine.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Why not just ask hon Sileku to speak a bit louder and the translation I am sure will take care in the process. We urge the Table to please assist. But if the Minister can on her side just have someone there to assist her. It was just a sentence or two. [Interjections.]



Mr I M SILEKU: Now Minister, the rollout of housing projects is dismally slow. Minister Sisulu told this House that, she was moving towards service sites and you have also mentioned that. But also in that regard we find that the progress is


also very slow. We hear every time when you deal with the department annual report but we don’t meet our targets. And my question is, what is your department projecting in terms of policy going forward? Thank you very much.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Sileku, for accommodating me.





Ek sal Afrikaans moet aanleer!





That’s the language I am still battling with.



Just to indicate, Yes, indeed the issue, that’s why I am talking about. We have taken a decision as collective, myself together with Dian and our Minmec colleagues, MECs across the provinces to say there is a need for us to pay attention to performance, performance in terms of the budget that we have and performance in terms of the targets.



And indeed, the issue around moving to service sites is one of the areas of intervention that we are paying and as I am indicating that we so far since the decision and what my


predecessor has announced that we will move to service sites. Already they have done about 10 000 service sites but they have been handed over, and for this financial year, we are doing the audit. We will be able to report just on this financial year. Those are other years not this financial year. Once we have done that we will be able to say this is how fast we can do and we do believe that the informal settlements are development grant. Will also assist us to fast track this area of work as we have planned, hon member. Thank you very much.



Question 226:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much House Chair and thank you hon Sileku. In relation to the allegation or the issue around fraud and all that in the temporary residence units, this I am assuming and correctly it’s Talana in Limpopo. I have met with the Special Investigating Unit, SIU to receive a report. I have met with the Housing Development Agency, HDA which was at the time the administrator before we appointed the board, but I have also briefed the board about it.



The first issue I want to say is that firstly, when the report was released there were three officials that SIU referred for disciplinary hearing. Out of those three officials, one


resigned two were taken to disciplinary hearing and they have received final warnings. At the time they met with me, the SIU the referred an additional three and that process is still in place for them.



In terms of the service provider, the SIU went to court and opened the case the last hearing was on 04 November in Limpopo. Also, what they are trying to do is to recoup the money that has been paid to the service provider. I must report hon members that, not all 100% of what was allocated was paid to the service provider, almost about 50%, I can say was paid. The other was remaining which was not paid by HDA, so it remains with us and as SIU is trying to recover on behalf of the state the other amount.



Lastly is that from HAD’s point of view, they did write to National Treasury requesting that the service provider be blacklisted, specifically because they submitted fraudulent documents that misled the entity into taking decisions that they should not have. In that context, the process is still ongoing. Thank you very much Chair.





Mnu I M SILEKU: Mandibulele Mphathiswa.




Minister I appreciate your giving us a report in terms of people that had actions taken, cases open and disciplinary hearings. Minister, year in and year out we hear of stories of people involved in corruption but ...





... ngelishwa asikaboni nomnye onxibe iimpahla ezi-orenji obanjiweyo.





Remembering that Limpopo is still reeling from thousands of gogos who lost their lifesavings with little action taken against those in red behind me. It seems that Minister, your party and those in red are natural coalition partners by ... [Inaudible] ...the residents of Limpopo ... [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well hon members, order.



Hon MEMBER: What is your question? What is your question?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I just want everybody to understand that, a bit of heckling does no harm but if you drown the speaker ... [Interjections] ...If you drown the


speaker and the speaker cannot be heard then ... [Interjections] ... there is a problem.



Hon MEMBER: You are out of order Sileku.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed Sileku.



Mr I M SILEKU: my question to you Minister is: How is it possible that we only hear lip service about fighting corruption and never see action? When are we going to see more people going to jail wearing the orange overalls because we see that whenever there is corruption, people tell us about cases have been referred but not all cases are being referred and ...





... die trant van hoe ons korrupsie beveg is dieselfde as die


van ’n skilpad. Baie dankie.



Hon MEMBER: Your preamble is misplaced.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much. Firstly, I think the hon member is misplaced on the coalition. The last time I checked on the outcome of the local government


elections, his party was voting with those he is condemning currently. They did not vote for us, so there can’t be coalition with us.



Hon MEMBER: Of course! Of course! Ja!



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Let’s start here on the issue of cases being opened and action. We can do so much from our side. Remember, we are a constitutional democracy. The law and the Constitution says as the executives we cannot interfere with the judiciary. Once a process has been done from the executive and it is handed over to the judiciary, the executive has no authority and neither can it go and dictate to the judiciary how they must run the course. I think that is the first thing I need to say.



We will do our part and we continue to do our part. There are quite a number of cases hon member, maybe you are not aware






... mhlawumbi khange uve ngawo, maninzi amatyala apho abantu bavela ezinkundleni, apho siye sahamba saya kubantu bomthetho sisithi, sicela nisincedise ...




... nayi imali ihambile. Singuhulumeni kaKhongolose sasho ukuthi ...





... hayi apha besifuna ukwakhela abantu izindlu kwacaca ukuba bakhona abantu abanesandla semfene abaye bangenelela bayeba, babela urhulumente wethu nabantu bakuthi. Siyahamba isye kuvula amatyala sisithi, sincediseni nina bantu bomthetho ngokuthi nibabambe ningapheleli ekuveleni kwabo ezinkundleni, mabahamne baye kunxiba ezo mpahla zi-orenji. Andikwazi njengoMphathiswa ukubenza ukuba banxibe ezi mpahla zi-orenji. Apho ndiphela khona nje ngoMphathiswa kukuba ndithi, naku apho kumoshakele khona ndincediseni.



Ngoko masithethe nabo sibacele ukuba benze umsebenzi wabo basincedise kwelo cala lungu elihloniphekileyo, ukuze nam ndinguMphathiswa ndikwazi ukuma ndithi sisebenzile. Andikwazi ukuma phambi kwabantu ekufaneleke ukuba babanjwe. Xa ndifika apho ndiphethe khona kwaye ndifumanisa ukuba kukho abantu abenze okungafanelekanga, ndizakuhamba nam ndiye kuvula ityala ndibize amapolisa babanjwe. Ukusuka apho ukubheka phambili, yinkqubo yezomthetho oomantyi neejaji. Ndiyabulela Sihlalo.




Mnr A ARNOLDS: Voorsitter, baie dankie vir die geleentheid. Ek dink dis net die blou wat elke keer ... jaar na jaar wanneer daar verkiesings gehou word, dan val hulle ... kom hulle af

... hulle daal! En die rooi gaan net op! [Tussenwerpsels.]





Minister, the tender process requires a high level of attention from the government to ensure that it does not fall prey to fraud and corruption. Such attention to detail has been found lacking under the current liberation government as the tender system continues to breed looting and corruption. Has the Minister considered doing away with tenders? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon member. I think let me start here, in terms of paying attention, we are paying attention. One of the things that we are starting to put in place now is that, if a tender has been issued out and then you find that a tender is cancelled without any explanation by the department or its entities, what we are taking as a decision is that, there will be consequences for those who have done that.


This is because I have received for an example when I interacted with women in construction who raised concerns to say Minister, the department, entities or provinces would issue a tender then they cancel it. After a month, that tender is issued. We incur costs as service providers. We incur costs as people. We think that somebody is trying to open our tenders and see our prices and then later utilising that because you see the tender going out with the same requirements with nothing changed.



So, what I have taken as a decision as the political head of this portfolio is that, we will put it as part of the requirements for audit that, if a tender is out and it comes out again with no changes, that official will face the might of the law. We will have to do disciplinary processes. This is part of paying attention to detail hon member. I always say, let’s judge people based on what they are doing.



There is quite a lot of work that perhaps you might not know that government is doing to tighten controls. We are learning from feedback, state capture that has been supported by the ANC in terms of its investigation and giving us guidance and hints on where issues have been going wrong so that we can tighten up. We remain committed as this Cabinet and this


government to dealing decisively with corruption. If it means amongst ourselves we see amongst our friends, comrades and families being going to jail, so be it.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you hon Chair. Hon Minister ...



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We cannot hear you. Try again hon du Toit.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, ... [Inaudible.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is even worse now. Try again slowly and speak to the microphone.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, when last were tender corruption investigated in the other eight provinces? Do you have any details on that? I know this question is posed and refers specifically to Limpopo but, with regard to the Hosing Development Agency. Are you attending to the other provinces as well?



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Chair and hon Du Toit. Based on the investigations we will deal with them as they come. Currently we do have two cases in


the courts in relation to human settlements, the hon member would know in Free State. Those are the two currently. We do not have anyone that is in front of the courts that has been brought to my attention. Though we do not have it specifically on corruption, it could be around other issues around beneficiaries and others.



We follow in terms of that, we take from recommendations but we also learn what is it that we can do to improve on our systems and also make sure that we tighten control. In relation to SIU work in terms of the other areas, the last report I saw that related to Gauteng did not have any recommendation. They did not think that there was corruption in that process but the work was still ongoing. As in when they do their work and if they bring reports that suggests that there has been wrongdoing, we will definitely deal with that decisively. Thank you.





Mnu E M MTHETHWA: Ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe, ngibonge nempendulo yakho osinikeze yona. Ngqongqoshe uchazile ukuthi laba be-HDA abanye bakhona usubayise ezinkantolo, wathumela nakubo ukuthi kwenziwe inkambiso yezemithetho kubo bonke labo abakhwabanisile, nabahlomula imali ngokungemthetho. Ngicela


ukwazi Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ingabe ikhona indlela yokuthi itholakale le mali abayithole ngokungemthetho, ukuthi ibuye kuhulumeni? Ngicela usicacisele lapho. Usuwuphendulile lo mbuzo wokuqala ukuthi usubayisile ezinkantolo nokuthi unezinhlelo zokubopha nabanye abasele ngaphandle. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.





ngibonge nelungu elihloniphekile uMthethwa. Angisho ukuthi ngempela labo okutholakala ukuthi imali bayikhokhelwe futhi baboshiwe. Yebo, kunendlela uhulumeni ayithatha ngayo imali ibuye ngakuyena. Mangisho ukuthi kulo daba lwaseTalana i-SIU iyasisiza njengenhlangano enamandla ukuthi iyolanda imali ebeseyikhishelwe umklamo. Engithandana ukukuchaza ukuthi ngempela kulemali yaseTalana i-service provider ibikhokhelwe imali engaphezulu kwamaphesenti ayi-50 kwathi lena enye yasala enkampanini yethu i-HAD. Lokhu osekukhokhelwe i-SIU iphezu kwako lokho, izama ukuthi ithole konke lokhu osekukhokhelwe kubuye. Lolu daba lusayiswe enkantolo. Yilokho esifuna ukukwenza kuwo wonke amacala akhona. Lapho sithola ukuthi sicele abantu ukuthi basilekelele siwuhulumeni ngokubanikeza umsebenzi wenkontileka yokuthi bakhele abantu bakithi izindlu, bona bahambe bayomosa bathathe imali. Esikushoyo thina siwuhulumeni sithi sizobuya siyifune leyo mali ngezindlela


ezifanele. Sisebenzise izinkantolo ukuthi zisitholele leyo mali. Uma ngabe umuntu useyiqedile le mali wazakhela ngayo izindlu wathenga nezimoto, sizothatha zona lezo zindlu nezimoto ukuze sithole imali kahulumeni. Yimali yesizwe lena akuyona imali kaKubayi. Akuyona imali yakithi noma imali yethu thina esingabaholi. Imali yesizwe kufanele isebenzele umphakathi wethu. Ngiyabonga



Mnu E M MTHETHWA: Asiyifa lakwaMthethwa.



Question 231:


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much House Chairperson and hon Mkiva. Just to indicate, the issue of rural migration or urban development is one of the global phenomenon that we continue to be dealing with not only as South Africa but globally.



So interprovincial and intramunicipality migration continues to happen and part of the patterns we see with the Statistics South Africa when they release migration patterns they would show that we are seeing quite a number of growth in terms of urban areas and this is because most of the people would come seeking for better opportunities.


Part of what we have done as this department was to gazette


136 priority human settlements and housing development areas that are meant to deliver houses aligned to all national, provincial and municipal sectors. We are ensuring that they are funded and there are implementation plans.



This also assist us to crowd in funding for example when you do mega programmes or mega projects in urban cities. As government we have been able to provide urban grants for the urban areas so that they can be able to provide solutions for these areas. Indeed, if we look at these towns that we are seeing migration from and going to, you find that because of the patterns, that’s why you end up with a lot of informal settlements with people living there.



Our intervention is in different forms. Firstly, acknowledging that not everybody who is migrating to an urban area is looking for a house and that’s why provision of rental housing is important. You will see that we had that in Kimberly in terms of Loretto Park, you will find them in Gauteng in terms of Fleurhof and all that.



That’s one of the things we want to do going forward and we


have tasked SHRA, Social Housing Regulatory Authority, as our


entity together with HDA, Housing Development Agency, to work together with the municipality so that we can see what we can do with our urban buildings. We have quite a number of buildings that a decaying that we could be able to refurbish or rebuild and convert them into settlements or places to stay, human settlement areas and people can come and let because they are just looking for a place closer to where they work where it’s convenient and therefore go back home where they’ve build their houses. That’s part of what we are looking at and it’s important for us to respond to that.



The informal settlements grant as well is also taking into cognizance that for instance I might be coming from Limpopo and my parents are the ones who own a house as I migrate to Gauteng for example I start thinking that I’m no longer going to Gauteng I’m going to make a settlement in Gauteng and some these people are the people that we tend to find ending up in the informal settlements.



Formalization of those settlements, the provision of adequate housing is important. Chair, this one is quite detailed in terms of what we are doing and also in terms of the medium and long term. It’s you integrated human settlement plans that we’ve got in terms of medium term strategic framework that we


have and the target we have put together with the informal settlement upgrading along with the budgets that we have allocated in order to respond to this and the responding in terms of low cost housing but as well as rental within metropolitan areas so that we can be able to respond in holistically dealing with this.



We do continue really request that people must stop putting themselves illegally because it’s just making our lives difficult. Thank you very much.





Mnu Z MKIVA: Sihlalo, mandibulele kuMphathiswa ngomdlakazi athe waphendula ngawo lo mbuzo. Eneneni, ukugxalathelana kwabantu besuka ezilalini nakwiidolophana besingise kwiidolophu zomasipala abambaxa besiya kukhangela imisebenzi kwenza ingxaki enkulu ekulawuleni ngakumbi ukubeka uphahla phezu kweentloko zabo. Kuyabonakala ukuba sowuxhwangushile, wawuphendula lo mbuzo ngendlela evokothekileyo kodwa ndifuna ugxininise udakance amalinge namacebo okuhlangabezana nalo mngeni. Kaloku abantu bathe gqolo beshiya amakhaya abo besingise kwezi dolophu minyaka le.


Ndiyafuna ukuba ungcotshe kulo mcimbi ukuze siqiniseke ukuba amatyotyombe awandi kakhulu kweli lizwe ngokungathi asikwazi kwenza izicwangciso ezizizo. Ndicela xa uphendula, unike ingcaciso ethe vetshe eza kusiqinisekisa ukuba ngenene ninawo amacebo alo mngeni. Enkosi.



UMPHATHISWA WEZENTLALO YOLUNTU: Sihlalo, manditsho ukuba lo mngeni ufuna thina sonke. Masiqale ngokuthi, ...





... uhulumeni ubheke ukuthi ...





... we intervene in different ways.





Okokuqala, umcimbi wokuphuhliswa kwamaphandle ubalulekile kakhulu. Sifuna ukuba kubekho uphuhliso kumaphandle kuba ngokwenza njalo, sakube sidala amathuba emisebenzi. Abantu basuka emaphandleni okanye ezilalini baye kwezi dolophu zinkulu kuba befuna imisebenzi. Ngoko ke, kuya funeka ukuba sincedisane, sibezintshatsheli zoYilo loPhuhliso lwesiThili (District Development Model). Enye into, kufuneka abaPhathiswa namaLungu ePalamente aqinisekise ukuba oomasipala banalo


uPhuhliso loQoqosho lweNdawo/kaMasipala (local economic development) khona ukuze abantu bafumane imisebenzi kwiindawo abahlala kuzo.





So that we are able to deal with migration.





Okwesibini, abantu bashiya amakhaya abo bekhangela amathuba emisebenzi kwiidolophu zomasipala abambaxa. Okunye, abanye abantu bashiya amakhaya abo besiya kufunda kumanye amaphondo basuke bafumane imitshato. Loo nto ibenze bangabisabuyela kumakhaya abo. Izizathu zokuba abantu bahlale ezidolophini zahlukile kuba abanye baye ezidolophini kuba bekhangela amantombi okuwatshata, bakhe iintsapho zabo. Into ekufuneka siyenze singurhulumente kukuba sikhangele iinkqubo ezincedisana noomasipala zokukhangela/chonga umhlaba.



Abantu mabayeke ukuhamba begxumeka amatyotyombe noba kuphi. Kufuneka basilinde singurhulumente sibone umhlaba apho siza kubakhela khona. Kwesi sigaba umntu kufuneka abhalise amagama akhe apheleleyo, atsho ukuba ufuna indlu ngaseJohannesburg kwaye akasebenzi. Abanye abantu banazo izindlu apho basuka khona, ntonje bafuna izindlu eziqashisayo. Kufuneka babhalise


bachaze ukuba bafuna izindlu eziqashisayo khona ukuze urhulumente abalungiselele izindlu ezinesidima.



Ingxaki yokuhlala kwezi ndawo zoogobityholo ingaphaya kokuqonda. Umhlaba wezi ndawo awulungiswanga kwaye kukho imigxobhozo nemithombo empompozayo kule mihlaba. Ugutyulo lwelindle alulungiselelwanga kakuhle nto leyo enokudala umngcipheko kwezempilo. Azilunganga iimeko ezinjalo kwisidima somntu kwaye sifuna abantu basilinde xa sibone indawo esiza kwakha kuyo.



Asifuni, xa sibone umhlaba wokwakha, abantu babaleke baye kugxumeka amatyotyombe kwimihlaba engalungiswanga. Sivumeleni singurhulumente silungise umhlaba, sifake amanzi, sitsale umbane, sakhe nezindlu, sakugqiba sizinikezele ebantwini.

Abanye abantu sibanika izitena ukuze bazakhele izindlu zabo kodwa abantu mabangahlali ngenkani okanye bagxumeke amatyotyombe kwiindawo ezingalungiswanga. Ndiyabulela Sihlalo.



Mr T APLENI: The housing challenges faced in South Africa are widespread. Informal settlements and lack of adequate housing remains permanent makers of poverty and inequality in our societies with thousands of people living in inhuman and


degrading conditions in informal settlements. Now, Minister







Mphathiswa, sidla ngokubona kwezinye iindawo xa abantu bekwazi ukufumana umhlaba baye bazakhele izindlu zabo. Sibonile phaya eMonti, kumhlaba ongasesikhululweni senqwelo-ntaka, kunyaka ophelileyo, abantu bathe bazakhela izindlu zabo. Urhulumente uye wangenelela ngezigalo, wabadilizela izindlu zabo ebanga ukuba loo mhlaba bawufumene ngendlela engekho mthethweni.

Ndicela ukuqonda Mphathiswa ukuba urhulumente akakwazi kusini na ukubayeka abantu xa ebabona ukuba bayazakhela kwaye abanye sebehlala kwezo zindlu, endaweni yokuba kudilizwe ezo zindlu? Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo.



UMPHATHISWA WEZENTLALO YOLUNTU: Sihlalo, mandibulele kohloniphekileyo u-Apleni ngombuzo wakhe. Ingxaki ngamanye amaxesha abantu baye bakhe emhlabeni womntu, kumhlaba wabucala ongengomhlaba karhulumente. Loo mntu uthile, uye ahambe aye kwiinkundla zamatyala afake isimangalo. Inkundla ikhupha incwadi yokugxotha negunyazisa ukuba abantu abo basuswe kuloo ndawo. [Eviction Order.] Akukho seMonti kuphela, zikhona nezinye iindawo eJohannesburg nasePretoria apho kudilizwe izindlu zabantu. Xa kuphandwa kuye kufumaniseke ukuba umhlaba


unomnini wabucala kwaye uziyele kwiinkundla zamatyala yaze yamnika isigunyaziso sokubagxotha kumhlaba wakhe. Umnini mhlaba uyatsho ukuba ubanikile isaziso esinexesha eliqingqiweyo sokuba basuke emhlabeni wakhe. Emva kokuphanza kwalo matile-tile uye wafika nooganda-ganda abathe bachitha ezo zindlu.



Akakwazi ukungenelela urhulumente kwiimeko ezinjalo. Zininzi iindawo esithi sikwazi ukungenelela kuzo kuba ngamanye amaxesha kubakho umntu ohlawulise abantu apha ekuhlaleni, ongafanelekanga ukuba athengise umhlaba. Abantu bayayazi ukuba akukho semthethweni ukuthengisa umhlaba kodwa babiza ama-R10

000. Abo bantu bayamosha kwaye ngabo kanye abaxhaphaza abantu bakuthi kuba bebabona ukuba bayadinga. Sifuna ukudlulisa umyalezo wokuba abantu mabangavumi ukuthenga umhlaba bengawazi ukuba ngokabani okanye unawo kusini na amaphepha awo.



Kumaphondo onke eli, zikhona ii-ofisi zethu nakoomasipala eziqinisekisa ukuba umntu ngumnikazi womhlaba ngenene.

Singurhulumente sizimisele ukuba sinikezele ebantwini ngeziza ezinomhlaba olungisiwe (serviced stands). Sesinikezele ngaphezulu kwama-10 000 eziza, kwaye sifuna nokunikezela ngezitena. Siqaphele ukuba uninzi lwabantu luyakwazi


ukuzakhela izindlu kwaye abazifuni ezi zindlu kuthiwa ngoovezinyawo ezakhiwe ngurhulumente (RDP Houses).



Abantu bakuthi bafuna nje umhlaba omhle, kubekho amanzi, izindlu zangasese nombane apho baza kuzakhela khona izindlu zabo. Sizimisele singurhulumente ukunceda abantu xa kunjalo kodwa siyacela sincedisane, singabakhuthazi abantu ukuba bakhe kwiindawo ezingaqondakaliyo. Umntu uzibona egaxeleka engxakini kuba encame imali yakhe yokugqibela yomhlala-phantsi wazakhela indlu yakhe kanti iza kudilizwa ashiyeke engenanto.




Mr M R BARA: Thank you Minister for your responses but let me say this. Minister, many beneficiaries of state built houses also tend to migrate to cities for work and end up living in informal settlements in the cities. Since they do not qualify for a second state subsidized property, they place massive pressure on services and create a false narrative of housing backlogs.



This also creates more demand of infrastructure and service delivery such as electricity. Are there interdepartmental memorandums of understanding to ensure infrastructure needs are developed as the housing need grows? Thank you Chair.


The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much hon Bara. Indeed, the issue around the movement of people is a very complex issue and in response to those, that’s why we’ve got what we call low cost rentals because we do understand that those ones who migrate from rural areas to urban areas who would have benefited might not be able to benefit.

Therefore, the rental option is something that they can be able to consider and look into as part of the solutions for what we have.



Secondly, I do agree and that’s why I was saying to the hon member who was talking about a backlog of 100 years, it’s because some of these dynamics in the beneficiary list, the hon member might not be aware of. But you find that certain people who are still beneficiary list who are supposed to be falling off the beneficiary list and all that they dynamism and movement of that, fragility of that beneficiary list is very important on how we manage it.



The issue of intergovernmental working relationship I must emphasize that in terms of infrastructure, we’ve got a presidential infrastructure coordinating committee that is between national, provinces and metros where we meet and look at those issues. The IMC, Inter-Ministerial Committee looks at


the interdepartmental infrastructure so there is that mechanism. That’s why even on the land issue there is a mechanism that is in place assisting. We as Ministers also take this initiative to work together collaboratively and ensuring that we provide services for example, myself and the Minister Mchunu worked closely in terms of provision of services so that there are no duplications.



We have started bringing Cogta on board, we said we will have meetings with them so that even on grants provision they know duplication but we can complement and ensure that resources are working effectively for our people on the ground. Thank you.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you very much hon Chairperson of the Council. I think hon Minister has covered me in all her responses thus far. Thank you very much.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please proceed.



Mr I NTSUBE: Chair, I was saying that hon Minister has covered me in all her responses that she has provided.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Thank you very much. I got destructed for a moment.



Mr I NTSUBE: Okay Chair.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, thank you very much. We will then move on. Hon Minister, I’m sure you would not want to comment on that. Just to indicate that we have now come to the end of the question directed to the Minister of Human Settlements.



I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for availing herself and we are looking forward to engaging with her even more as we move into the future. Thank you very much hon Minister.



The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much Chairperson.



Question 235:




much, House Chair and good afternoon to the hon members. Thank you very much hon Ndongeni for the question and just to say that the department and the Ministry are having continued


engagements with the industry and maybe I should state that it became more frequent during the COVID-19 lockdown.



When we were about to start with the relief funding, the department invited the industry for engagements so that when we then discuss how we go about the relief funds in the first, second and third phase, they have had input. You would know that that relief fund has benefitted about 20 000 creatives.



When the President announced the Presidential Economic Stimulus Package, we also invited the creatives to engage with the department and the industry. You would also remember that that process has benefitted about 40 000 beneficiaries.



The Minister had appointed the ministerial advisory team which is made up of representatives nominated by the industry. Over the past eight months they have engaged and gave us some things that we need to do. They have engaged with several stakeholders. There are positive outcomes as a result of this intervention.



The department has also been in constant consultation with the industry through the industry reference group, which is made up of diverse representation across different cultural domains


that make up the cultural and the creative industry. The process has given rise to the cultural and creative industry master plan which is now going through Cabinet structures. The objective is to have a blueprint that has been thoroughly consulted for the industry for the endorsement by Cabinet before the end of the financial year.



There is also a transformation forum on the live events, technical and production services that has also been put together to make sure that it drafts the broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE, codes and the Charter for this sector.



Just recently, hon Ndongeni and hon members, the department has had consultation with the industry on the 5th and 22nd November where key areas of concern that the industry had were addressed. So, the issue of an indaba is not something that is not out of the radar. It will be a continuation. If it comes up ... I know that the federation of the creatives is looking at this ... we are open to it. Thank you very much.





Nksz N NDONGENI: Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu yeBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo, ndiyabulela nakuwe Sekela Mphathiswa. Nanku umbuzo endinawo:





The cultural and creative industry is a very diverse group with very difficult interests. How does the department ensure that it consults as wide as possible?










Siyabulela kakhulu kwilungu elihloniphekileyo uMama uNdongeni





The department subscribes to the United Nations’ conference on trade and development, which is profiling of the cultural and the creative industry. It takes into account six cultural domains covering the areas of cultural and natural heritage, performance and celebrations, visual arts and crafts, books and press, audio-visual and interactive media, and design and creative services. In all our dealings with the sector, we take into account these domains.


Further to that, there are multiple platforms of engaging the sector. At the sector level, where bilateral takes place on matters of specific interest, at multilateral level where some matters of common interest are addressed, at federation level where matters overarching the sector are addressed, and at the ministerial advisory team, which is constituted by sector leaders has been a vehicle used to engage the sector. Thank you very much.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, House Chairperson, hopefully by the end of the 5th year, you’ll get that right. Deputy Minister, such an indaba will only work if there is trust between the government and the industry. There is currently none. The first step ... and this you have to acknowledge ... is building bridges between the industry and government, is for government to start respecting the arts and our artists and to take the industry seriously. This whole mess with the COVID-19 funding is simply because government does not respect the industry enough to take it seriously and to understand the basics of how this industry work. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether the department understands the difference between a movie theatre and an actual theatre. I know the Minister does not. A lot of the anger towards your department and the National Arts Council, NAC, is because of the back-peddling


and the reduction of funds that were committed during lockdown.



The second step to building trust between the industry and government is accountability. You simply dumped the

R300 million on the NAC and allowed them to steal and misappropriate. Theo Lawrence had to sound the alarm. You, as the political heads woke up too late when the entire industry was already destroyed, and only then you requested an inquiry. After all the mess that you have made during lockdown, how do you expect our artists to trust you and the NAC at such an indaba and to know that you actually take them seriously as an industry? Thank you.





important question because trust is important amongst parties when you are dealing with a matter. One of the things that as the department we want to confirm to you is that it is something that we want to make sure we work on it. Remember, the plight of the creatives became more pronounced when COVID-

19 came to the fore. Before that, a lot of you did not know that there is a lack of trust or there are problems. COVID-19 came, everybody stood up and realized that there are challenges.


What we need to understand is that the entities that we have put together in the department, one of them being the National Arts Council, are there to make sure that they assist the work of the department and making sure that they interface with the creatives. Obviously, it is not going to be easy that you would expect that the department on its own will be able to do that job.



There are also provincial departments that the department made sure that there is interaction with the creatives at that level. Most of the creatives are at local level. The municipalities need to make sure that where the creatives are, there’s work that is being done. You are not going to expect that the national department will be able to carry all the creatives in this South Africa on their back. That is why it is important that all the sectors work well seamlessly to make sure that there is that synergy to look after the creatives.



The important thing is that ... that’s why the national government, amongst other things, when they talk about the District Development Model, DDM, because that’s where everybody will be looked at.


Yes, an indaba is not going to resolve issues overnight because what we talked about - the issue of creatives – is an ongoing problem and everybody’s problem including members that are in this House. Thank you very much.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson of the Council, hon Deputy Minister, what has been this department’s biggest stumbling block in addressing some of the grievances that leading personalities in the arts and culture fraternity been? Thank you very much.





much, hon Ntsube - I hope I got the question correct - you are asking about the grievances from the personalities in the creative industry. There’s been interactions between the Ministry and the department around those grievances. You would also remember that now that there is an outcome of the forensic report on the National Arts Council, there processes that are being taken to make sure that some of those grievances are being handled in the correct way. I am sure there is a question on that. We will dwell on it further.

Thank you very much.





Mnu T APLENI: Enkosi kakhulu Sihlalo.





Deputy Minister, considering the fact that many personalities in matters of arts are academics and professionals ... I am sorry ... Does the Minister allow them space to play an active role in deciding their affairs? Does the Ministry still interfere in artist affairs like we often see that there are prominent government personalities who keep on criticizing artists who are participating in the events of certain political parties especially during campaign times? Is your Ministry still allowing some personalities to keep on interfering on the matters of some of the artists? Thank you very much.





much, hon Apleni, for the question. The department does not interfere in the work of the artists. The artists themselves have their own federation which they interact with. Us, as the Ministry and as the department, we wouldn’t be seen interacting directly them because then that would be interference. Where there is a need that they would want to see us on certain things, we would meet them, but how we work with them generally is to make sure that we respect their


independence and that we do not interfere. Thank you very much.



Question 227:




Chair and thank you very much hon Bara for the question. The subject of trade relations with Israel is not related to the concerns about South African representation at the Miss Universe Pageant as preferred by owners and organisers of Miss SA Pageant. Instead, it is specifically aligned to South Africa’s support for the Palestinian course as part of an overall attempt to encourage Israel to commit towards genuine negotiations that must take place in a peaceful and enabling environment.



The recommendations for the withdrawal of Miss SA in the Miss Universe Pageant is therefore intended to draw attention to the need for Israel to commit to this agreement. Thank you, hon Bara.



Mr M R BARA: Hon House Chair and hon Deputy Minister, I thought your answer would be longer than what you have just given me. I think it was too short and brief.


However, let me ask my follow-up question Chair. Since part of the role of Miss SA is to build bridges between people, because of our historical background South Africa is uniquely placed to create dialogue. Why did the Minister in a patriarchal fashion refuse to support Miss SA, instead of encouraging her to go to Israel to build such bridges? I know that you represent the department even though is the Minister that made such statements, you will have to respond because it is part of your responsibility as well. Thank you, House Chair.





Chair and hon Bara thank you very much for the question. I think let me stress that government is not prohibiting Miss SA from participating in this pageant. As I have said earlier on, we raised the concern because it is important for us that at all times we uplift the situation and conditions of the people of Palestine.



Cultural exchanges by their nature are a tool of foreign policy. As we all know the foreign policy is the prerogative of the national executive. The foreign policy of government at this point in time which is the government-led by the ANC is that Israel is not our priority more than the Palestinians.


The Palestinians are our concern. The relationship between the Palestine and Israel is worrying because as South Africans, we are coming from where they are right now. We got democracy because countries stood up and supported us when we were living under apartheid. It is only fair that we return the favour, hon Bara, by making sure that we do not turn a blind eye on what is happening in Palestine. That is perpetuated by Israel.



So, when then we said, Miss SA must not participate in the Miss Universe Pageant which is hosted by Israel, it is simply to uplift, understand and make awareness to the people of South Africa that the people of Palestine are not at this point in time liberated yet. That is what we did. [Applause.]



Ms M N GILLION: Hon House Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your response to the question. My follow-up question is as follows: How important is the withdrawal of Miss SA in this Miss Universe Pageant, given South Africa’s support to the Palestinian course? Thank you, Deputy Minister.





thank you very much for that question. For us it is neither


here nor there, whether Miss SA does withdraw or not. The important thing is that we would have highlighted why as the government of South Africa have raised the issue. For us the issue is not Miss SA as an individual. I think I want to stress this. Miss SA is not the important element here. The important element is the fact that the competition is hosted by Israel. Israel which keeps on abusing the human rights of the people of Palestine. Miss SA who is a resident of South Africa and a South African government that has a foreign position on what happens there. It is therefore important that we raise that. We cannot keep quiet and let her participate.

When she is there she says, but my country never said anything that I did not know. Let her go knowing that we have raised the concern and what the country stands for. We stand with the people of Palestine. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M NHANHA: On a point of order, House Chairperson.





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nkz W Ngwenya): Hayi, ikhona. Nakwakho ikhona.





Mr M NHANHA: Hon House Chairperson, I am bothered by the statement that has been made by the Deputy Minister. She says and I quote, “She must know that the country says.”



I must tell the Deputy Minister right now; I am not part of those who are saying that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, no, that is not the point of order.





Qhubeka, mhlonishwa u-Motsamai.





Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon House Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, will the Minister also work alongside other governmental departments so as to isolate Israel from all cultural events such as sports, religion and economic activities until they end their apartheid and colonial occupation of the Palestinian people’s land. You must also understand that we are only people who are fighting for the land in Africa as a whole. I thank you, hon House Chair.




Chair and the hon Motsamai just to confirm that the position of the department is not only our position, it is also the position of the government of South Africa.



I think it is important to stress this, the government of South Africa at this particular time, is led by the ANC. The ANC at this particular time has a foreign policy position around Israel. Therefore, what the hon Motsamai is asking, actually all government departments supposed to abide by that because it is a government position. Thank you very much.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Minister, quoting a News 24 article, your department said that the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians were well documented and that the government as a legitimate representative of the people of South Africa and I am quoting, “Could not in good conscience associate itself with such.”



Now we all know that Israel is protecting itself. Deputy Minister with all due respect, your government is allowing real atrocities to take place on a daily basis in South Africa. From April 2021 till the end of June 2021, a total of

5 760 people were murdered and 10 006 cases of rape were


registered in South Africa, the ANC uMkhonto weSizwe, MK, soldiers embarked on armed resistance including acts of sabotage and the guerrilla warfare, Deputy Minister and some of them were accommodated in the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, after 1994. Do you agree to this, hon Deputy Minister?





am not going to be able to respond to that question right now because right now I am dealing with the atrocities that Israel is doing to the people of Palestine.



If the hon member wants us to discuss what is happening the Republic of South Africa and the atrocities, I think the hon member must pose that question. I think it is a total different question and I will respond to it. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.



Question 236:




Chair, yes the executive team had engagements with Robben Island Museum executive management and its board. The last engagement was on the 11 November, including a session joined by the ex-political prisoners on the 12th. So, there are levels that we are intervening here. For instance, the


Department of Public Works had put on a structure where there is Minister to Minister structure, the Director-General to Director-General structure, and there is a steering committee as well which is dealing with the issue.



But also, to just say, there is an addition of R113 million which was approved for the next three financial years for the Department of Public Works to implement the total facilities management which deals with repairs, emergencies and preventative maintenance on the island. Now in addition, the department has reprioritized a budget to an amount of

R59 million, to assist the Robben Island Museum to deal with revenue loss due to COVID-19. This has assisted Robben Island to stave off salary cuts and possible job losses.



Now, the resolution is that the Robben Island Museum must develop a new business model proposition, which have value proposition for partnerships with the private sector by identifying partnerships revenue generating projects based on commercial opportunities to be unlocked. This business model review and partnership prospects will be developed in the next three months.


Now, in relation to the Liliesleaf Farm Museum, the department has not received any assessment report on the challenges currently facing the Liliesleaf Farm Museum. So, we are unable to come up with terms because in terms of the Cultural Institutions Act No 119 of 1998, as a declared cultural institution and a Schedule 3, a public entity in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, they have not declared annual operational funding to the Liliesleaf Farm Museum as a museum. So the department has requested Liliesleaf Farm, on several occasions, including meetings on 19 February 2018 and

22 July 2020, to consider declaration as a cultural institution to ensure operational sustainability, without success.



Despite this, the department has over the past nine-year period, been given approximately about R70 million to develop the museum and upgrade its content. So the business model of Liliesleaf Farm is determined by its government’s structure - the Liliesleaf Farm Board of Trustees - as an independent museum. We have also met with them twice this year on 4 May and 7 September, and we will make a determination based on the recommendations we will receive from the board, on the preferred operational model to ensure the production and requisition of the site. Thank you very much.


Mr M E NCHABELENG: House Chair. I am on my way between Sekhukhuneland and Pretoria to a Cuba Africa meeting on Basic Education. So, may I switch my phone off because I am standing on road side? Thanks a lot for your answer Deputy Minister, particularly on issues related on Robben Island. I think we need to engage more and actually engage the association of ex- political prisoners as one of the main stakeholders when it comes to the museum on Robben Island. I would like to know how effective can the department intervene in trying to resolve the challenges facing Liliesleaf Farm if they are not a declared cultural institution and a Schedule 3 public entity in terms of the PFMA? Thank you, Deputy Minister. Thank you, House Chair.





very much hon Nchabeleng for the question. The department’s intervention to assist Liliesleaf Farm will be informed by the details of such a request that it will receives, as well as the recommendations that will come from the trustees after the engagements the department and the Minister will have with the trustees. Otherwise, until then there is nothing that we can do as a way of intervention. Thanks, hon Nchabeleng.





Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.





Deputy Minister, museums and heritage sites under the ruling party are often casualties of mismanagement. To which extent does fraud, gross mismanagement and theft play regarding various challenges faced by the Robben Island Museum and Liliesleaf Farm Museum? Thank you.





House Chair for the opportunity and thank you very much, hon Mathevula for the question. Museums and heritage sites you will remember that they have their own administration and they also have their own boards. Most of the time the boards management manages those museums. Therefore, the department is not directly involved in running those museums. Most of the time, we give funding to them of course. But problems that would then arise out of how they are being managed, we only get interaction on how to deal with them when they are reported to us as the department by the board or by management. Maybe we need to do better in terms of how we then monitor how they are being run. But at this point in time they are run by the boards and the management. Thank you very much.


Mr I NTSUBE: Deputy Minister, the demise of Liliesleaf ... [Inaudible.] ... financial crisis affecting numerous dependent historical sites and theatres. Much of it predating COVID-19. The report indicates that the crisis is linked to government reluctant to fund the independent heritage, cultural and arts organisations. What is the Deputy Minister’s position on these accession? Is there in fact reluctance to fund dependent heritage, cultural and arts organisations? If so, what is the rationale behind this? Thank you very much, House Chairperson.





very much hon Ntsube for that question. Well, there hasn’t been any changes in the department on how we are funding the cultural institutions and the heritage organisations, not at all. The only difference is that some of them have been having their own source of income through having visitors and tourists coming there. COVID-19 has then affected how they make their incomes so some of them are struggling to perform and function. So most of them are looking for extra funding from the department, which on this point in time, the department is unable to do that because, remember, COVID-19 has put a strain on government funding in general across all departments. So extra funding is something that we are unable


to do, but we haven’t changed how we fund the cultural


institutions and heritage organisations. Thank you so much.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, I see there are extra hot and spicy version of chakalaka, so you might be on something. In the light of the fact that the DA has taken up the state of Robben Island over many years, with your predecessors in this very House, and none of the ANC Ministers of Arts and Culture have up to now successfully acted on this. Does this mean that with 2024 around the corner, that the ANC plans to leave the restoration and upgrade of these important museums that are so vital to the ANC to leave it to a DA coalition to safeguard you’re and the nation’s heritage that you have so disgracefully neglected?





very much, hon Chakalakis. [Laughter.] I just want to assure you that there is no hope in hell that the DA will be able to safeguard the Robben Island Museum. You know why? The reason is that it is not in its best interest to do that.

Historically, it has nothing to do with Robben Island Museum because if they then want to do it, they would be actually helping to uplift the name of the ANC, which is not in their interest. So I doubt that you would want to do that. Also,


just to say to you that my department and the government always had an interest in the Robben Island Museum. That is why when I answered the question earlier, I said the department has had a virement of R59 million to make sure that there are no jobs lost and nobody is being laid out. Secondly, I said there is an amount of about R113 million that have been put aside for three years to be given to the Department of Public Works to make sure that they continue with the work of Robben Island because Robben Island is very important to us as the ANC. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Question 214:




much, hon House Chair, and thank you very much, to hon Lehihi for the question. Mass gatherings are considered as a super spreader. The National Command Council and the Ministerial Advisory Committee recommendation based on scientific data available informed this. The rational to allow up to 2 000 spectators at sports events constitutes a relaxation rather than a restriction.



Prior to the current Alert Level 1 of the risk adjusted strategy the regulations relating to the Disaster Management Act indicated that no spectators were allowed. Therefore, the


maximum number of 2 000 is in line with the number allowed in terms of Alert Level 1 for outside gatherings. Therefore, it will depend on the extent to which sports leaders exercise discipline and are able to contribute towards minimising the number of infections whether we go beyond that 2 000 and it will depend on the National Command Council. Thank you very much, House Chair.





Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu wa Yindlu.





Deputy Minister, with the current minimum capacity of 2 000 people are allowed to gather outdoor or to the half capacity of the venue. What is the size applying to still restricting spectators to during sports events? Thank you.





much, hon House Chair. Thank you very much, hon Mathevula for the question. As we are still living within the coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, we are not out of the hoods yet. We are on Alert Level 1, we are not on Alert Level 0 and Alert Level 1 at this point in time allows for a maximum number of

2 000. Now, as the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture and


as sports bodies we are then abiding by what the National Command Council has prescribed. However, of course, we are in continuous engagement with them on how then to navigate this moving further, but for now because we are on Alert Level 1, therefore, it is 2 000.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, hon House Chair. Deputy Minister, apparently restrictions are only in place and being implemented when it suits the government. Therefore, Deputy Minister, will your department please commit to consistency regarding Covid restrictions to avoid unrest amongst sports fans? Thank you.





hear at all.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Can you repeat, hon De Bruyn.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, House Chair. My connection is a bit bad here due to bad weather, but I will repeat my question. Deputy Minister, apparently restrictions are only in place and being implemented when it suits the government seeing as elections ... [Inaudible.] ... the national


elections that ... [Inaudible.] ... with numbers. Therefore, my question is will your department please commit to consistency regarding the Covid restrictions to avoid unrest among sports fans. Thank you.





to respond. Hon De Bruyn, I will try and see if I heard you, but I think that he was saying, House Chair, is that the restrictions seem to be not being done uniformly. They seem to be pick and choose on restrictions in summary. However, I just want to say that the restrictions are for all South Africans, black and white, green and yellow, because the Covid-19 is affecting all of us. So, the restrictions are meant to make sure that the virus is not making more damage as it has done. Therefore, what we are doing with the restrictions is to make sure that the people that go to the sporting activities are those that would have been the first one to respond to that sporting activity and they are 2 000. It has got nothing to do with those that are closer to the political party or ... [Interjections.] ... Thank you very much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon member!




House Chair.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, House Chair. Deputy Minister, I hope I can engage you today in the spirit of constructive engagement. I’m sure you like me are sports-mad fans and we all know that are sports lovers of South Africa from Bafana Bafana to the Springboks to all what across the world watch longingly as a little bit television, TV, screens around the world and see full stadiums, okay. And I think what you been doing in this question so far is beating around the bush, Deputy Minister. What South Africans would like from the department is a protocol. Tell us sports-mad South Africans, how many of us have to get vaccinated? Do we need vaccination sports passport to get into stadiums?



However, I think that if the department were to set a standard and say you know what if you guys achieve this, we will open those stadiums up again and we will enjoy our sport again. We will allow the players in those side enjoying the incredible support of the South African screaming and shouting for the them, we will allow that to happen the moment is flouting in the air. So, I’m asking you, Deputy Minister, can you commit today to tell us what sort of protocol do you have in mind, or


what sort of regulations do you have in mind to enable us to get there and not depending on and depending this and depending that. Give us a figure so we can work towards that Thank you, Deputy Minister.





much, House Chair. Thank you very much, hon member. I think first of all when we talk about sports lovers and the people that love sports we must not be divorce them from the rest of the society. They are part of the society. Now, it is out there, it is public knowledge that we had said that as a country we need to make sure that at least 40% of the population is vaccinated. It is out there. Now, that 40% of the population that must be vaccinated includes sport lovers, include those people that would want to go to the stadiums.



Now, what we need to do as a country is to go out there and motivate for all South Africans to go out and vaccinate. It doesn’t have to be done because the person is a sports lover or not. The important thing is that we need to reach herd immunity as South Africans. Therefore, once we’re able to do that all the other issues and challenges that we’re dealing with of going to the stadiums, and of wanting us have full stadiums will be a nonissue because we would have reached herd


immunity. So, I want us when we deal with the issue of sport not to deal with it in isolation, and want the department to deal with to come up with protocols and everything, because remember it is part of the bigger society. Once we are able to deal with what is happening in the society at large South Africans going out there to vaccinate, the issue of the stadiums will not be an issue anymore. Thank you very much.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, the closure ... [Inaudible.] ... sports have really impacted on a number of things, particularly the youth. We as the youth are feeling depressed, stressed and the business that we do during the sports we can’t do because there’s a Covid-19. Can the Deputy Minister or the Ministry take us into confidence as the youth of our country to say when is it that we are going to be able to at least the larger part of society will be able to be allowed to go to the sports venues. Because you and I, hon Deputy Minister, we know that there is a vaccine hesitant among the young people. They are saying that the vaccines even if you are vaccinated it does not necessarily mean that you cannot carry or you can’t get infectious. Can the Deputy Minister take us into confidence and set a timeframe, perhaps may be because now is December,


if may be she can tell us, hon House Chairperson, when are we going to go back to the field? Thank you very much.





much, House Chair, and thank you very much, hon Ntsube. I think South Africans by nature are sport loving people, and it is in interest of all of us to make sure that everybody is able to enjoy sport as they are used to, and those that can go out there they need to go out there and play sport. We are coming from time where it was even difficult for athletes to practice because Level 5, Level 4, and Level 3 did not allow this. Level 2 at least allow for sport people took to play in a bubble. Level 1 has at least allowed now that they can go out and play, but the important thing is that you have to make sure that your test is negative and you make sure that at least the 2 000 we stick to as I have already alluded to.



Now, all of us want to see full stadiums. All of us want to see young people engaging in sport because sport is very important for the social cohesion of the country. However, we are not going to be able to be reckless and allow this to happen when we have not reached the herd immunity as the country. We want to urge young people to go and vaccinate because it will be so easy that when they are vaccinated then


everybody is safer around them. Remember, when you are vaccinated even if you do get the virus, you will not get as sick as somebody who is not vaccinated.



Science has proven that all those that are vaccinated when they get the virus, they don’t end up in intensive care unit, ICU. Those that end up in intensive care unit are those that are not vaccinated. Therefore, at this point in time vaccination, vaccine is still our best way of protecting ourselves and making sure that we go back to the normality as we are used to know that we will be able all of us to enjoy life as we are used to know. Therefore, in all our corners let’s beg, let’s convince and let’s talk to people that they must go out there and vaccinate, especially young people.

Thank you very much, House Chair.



Question 228:




Chairperson, let me thank very much hon Bara for the question. The only thing is that this question of hon Bara is ill- informed and incorrect because as we speak, both the chief executive officer and the chief financial officer are currently on suspension and the council has instituted the


disciplinary process against the two officials which will start on 14 December. Thank you very much.





Mnu M R BARA: Enkosi mama siyabulela.





Deputy Minister, thank you for the update, obviously when the question was posed that information was not readily available. However, what I want to check Deputy Minister is that there are various corrective measures recommended in the report.

Eight months later we have heard nothing from your department which I hear now that they are on suspension. Will you commit your department to the successful completion of the prosecution of the National Arts Council members who have been found to be involved in the mismanagement of the R300million Presidential Employment Stimulus Package Funds meant to assist those affected by Covid-19? Thank you, House Chair.





Chair, thank you, hon Bara for that question. Anybody who misuses the public purse must face the might of the law. We are committed as the department that this would be followed to the latter. As I have already said, both the chief executive


officer and the chief financial officer’s disciplinary hearing is starting on 14 December. Also, tomorrow, the National Arts Council is meeting to discuss those recommendations that have been put to also agree on how then to move forward and we have put to them that they also had to report on progress that has been made by the beginning of January so, that we are able to brief Members of Parliament on progress. Thank you very much.





Nks N NDONGENI: Sihlalo, mandibulele kuSekela Mphathiswa ngenkcazelo kodwa umbuzo wam uthi ...





 ... does the Deputy Minister know how far the process of disciplining the two employees is and when it might be finalised?





Enkosi Sihlalo.







have already said that the hearing is starting on 14 December. Of course it is very difficult to say when it will be


finalised but from our side we would want this process to be done as speedily as possible. As I have already said that the letters have been issued to them and tomorrow on 03 December on a Friday, the council is meeting to deliberate on the responses of the two officials so that we are able to know now how to move forward. We hope that this will be done as speedily as possible. Thank you very much.



Mr K MOTSAMAI: House Chairperson, given the related approach towards the financial management which is currently followed, will funds reach all deserving and intent applicants so that projects are sustained and work opportunity are created? I thank you Chair.





Chairperson, from the report we received last month, I know that 90% of funding has been dispatched from the National Arts Council. I do not know if you followed what has happened. What actually happened is that National Arts Council approved more companies than what they could afford from the purse. Then, in the process of dispatching the money, they wanted to make sure that everyone who had applied gets the money. For example, an applicant who was supposed to get R1 million, was then given


R800 000 so that the money is stretched for everybody to receive.



So, from what we understand and from the report we have, everybody who has applied will receive the money but it will not be the amount that they applied for. Thank you very much.



Mr I NTSUBE: House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, the Presidential Economic Stimulus Package was meddled with a lot of issues in so far as the actual provision of Covid-19 relief fund meant for artists. In the light of the report of misappropriation of funds, how and where were some of the artists who applied for the Presidential Economic Stimulus Grant not receiving funding while some of the applicants who received funding were over allocated? Thank you very much.





much, hon Ntsube for that question. Of course, there have been that complaint that there are those that applied and have not received their amounts. As I have explained, what now the National Arts Council is trying to do is to make sure that everybody gets something because of what they did. They approved more people than the amount they had in their purse. So, they are trying to make sure that everybody receives.


There is a 10% of the applicants that have not received their money but we were assured that by the end of this month which is end of December everybody would have received their amounts even though the amount would not necessarily be the exact amount that people have applied for. Thank you very much, House Chair.



Question 237:




much, House Chair, and thank you very much, hon Maleka for the question, the Ministry has met with the sportspersons and some sport media personalities across different sports codes, mainly cricket, rugby and netball and associations of player representatives who indicated their own experiences dealing with racism.



Cricket South Africa had adopted a strategy of culture camps for their national teams and other contracted players to address issues of transformation, racism, and the value systems of loyalty, respect, and belonging. Upon receiving complaints from the members of the public on the state of governance, including progress in transportation.


In the sport of cricket, we appointed an interim board to replace the previous board who had resigned. The objective was to help Cricket South Africa comprehensively assist with both governance and transformation. By the time the entire interim board finished their task, they left the new board with an extensive report on both governance and transformation that the current board has adopted.



Furthermore, by the time the previous board left, they had devised a transformation initiative whereby a platform was created to allow all transformation-related issues to be publicly ventilated. These hearings known as the Social Justice and Nation-Building hearings are chaired by ombudsman advocate, Dumisa Ntsebeza which is now about to be concluded and the recommendations that will be coming out of those hearings will be finalised shortly. Thank you so much, House Chair Thank you. I was chair and thank you.



Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, House Chair, and thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for your response to the question, I want to check, has there been any meaningful improvement in the governance of Cricket South Africa since the appointment of the interim board? Thank you, Chair.




much, House Chair, and thank you very much, hon Maleka, for the ministerial intervention in the affairs of Cricket South Africa through the appointment of an interim board to replace the resignation of the previous board and develop a template for the governance of the sport has already shown progress in instances like the following; one, we have already said now there's a new board that has been put in place and we have also agreed that the major amendments to the Memorandum of Incorporation were also discussed by Cricket South Africa and an annual general meeting, AGM, to appoint a new board comprising majority independence is prescribed in the Nicholson report was also done.



So yes, there has been visible progress around the appointment of the interim board, and also the key recommendations of the Fundudzi report have been implemented and the normal men’ and women’ programmes for cricket, domestically and internationally have resumed. You will remember there was a stop on this at some point. So the international acceptance of the new Cricket South Africa, as demonstrated by the host status for 2027 50 over Cricket World Cup, which will be done by us, Zimbabwe and Namibia, shows that today's progress on


this matter. Thank you very much. [Interjections.] Yes, it was.



Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, House Chairperson, I will take it on behalf of ... [Inaudible.] Hon Deputy Minister, just on your previous question, I just want to make sure that you answered correctly. So you said that your political interference into the board ensured that we got awarded the contract to host the Cricket World Cup?





didn't get the name because it was hon Ryder but hon Ryder did not come in. So, I didn't get the name. I like to call people by their names.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Sorry, hon member, can you raise your name. [Interjections.] For the sake of the record, sir.



Mr J J LONDT: Hon Londt!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Londt!




much, hon Londt, the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture and the Ministry has an executive role in managing and making sure that all the federations of South Africa are run according to a plan and, yes, hon Londt, the international acceptance of the new Cricket South Africa, as demonstrated by the host status for 2027 50 over Cricket World Cup, which we will be hosted jointly by South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia, we had been granted because we had managed to put our house in order and Cricket South Africa is back to being accepted internationally. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: House Chair, I just want to make sure that I'm audible now. House Chair, can you please indicate if I am audible now?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, but ...





... eyi, akazwakali yazi. [Ubuwelewele.]



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you! Hon Chair, am I protected?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order hon members! Can you continue, hon member. [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: The dogs, please!



AN HON MEMBER: Please Chair, can the hon member move away from the dogs, man. Please!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members!



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Chair, Minister, agreeably sports like cricket in South Africa are a great tool to unite South Africans. But when will your department realise that forced transformation and politically motivated rules and restrictions are destroying any chance of sports in general to positively contribute to nation-building and unity. Forcing politics into sports divides our people instead of uniting them. So will your department please consider stopping politicising sports for the sake of nation-building and unity? Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon member. Deputy Minister.




Uzwile? Izwi lakhe angilizwa kahle. Nangaphambili angimuzwanga kahle.







comment. I do not think it was a question.



Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Minister, I did pose a question, I asked, will your department consider stopping politicising sports for the sake of nation-building and unity, at the end?





it. Thank you very much, hon House Chair, and thank you very much, hon member, for the question, I just want to dare say that some of us who have been part of the struggle for a long time and how sport has played a major role in making sure that we are where we are in terms of democracy when at some point in time, sports in South Africa were not allowed to participate internationally because of the apartheid of that time. It is difficult, therefore, to want to divorce sport from politics, because, unfortunately, sports play an important part in the politics of this country.


Yes, as the government and as the department, the federations that were put together and The SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, which then is running the federations and making sure that they do the work. We try by all means to make sure that we do not interfere politically in how they are being run. But once those federations try to trample on the rights of sportspeople and South Africans in particular, we will intervene as the government because it is in our interest to make sure that sports represent entire South Africa. Thank you very much



Mr S ZANDAMELA: House Chair ...





USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk W Ngwenya): Uhlekani?





Mr S ZANDAMELA: ... Deputy Minister, black players continue to face a number of challenges in the cricket fraternity. Is there a third force in Cricket South Africa that sabotages transformation, judging from the testimony of the former CEO Thabang Moroe? Thank you, House Chair.




much, House Chair, and thank you very much, hon Zandamela, as I have already said that there are the hearings that are taking place that is known as the Social Justice and Nation- Building hearings, being chaired by hon Dumisa Ntsebeza, we've also heard how some of the cricketers came through to those hearings and explained some of the experiences that they have had. The recommendations that are going to come out there, hon Zandamela, are going to be made public.



Everybody, every South African will have an opportunity to look at that report and the recommendations, but what do we hope to do, as both the people that have been given an opportunity to manage the sport in the country, we will be able to make sure that we deal with those things so that no one will be able to experience what those that have come forward have you experienced. Sports in South Africa and cricket, in particular, must be enjoyed by everybody regardless of colour. Thank you so much.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.





Sibonge Sekela Ngqongqoshe ...





... for respecting this House.





Ngokuthi uzophendula imibuzo.





Now we are coming to the end of the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture questions.





Siyabonga, Sekela Ngqongqoshe. [Ihlombe.]



Question 232:




hon House Chairperson. Good afternoon, members of the NCOP. The Department of water and Sanitation is supporting both district municipalities of Vhembe and Mopani using both grants

- regional bulk infrastructure grant and water services infrastructure grant. In Mopani District Municipality we are in four municipalities. We are in the Giyani Municipality where we are continuing to invest in infrastructure. But as we


invest in our infrastructure the villages where we are passing through always have an opportunity of getting water. Let me indicate that there are 55 villages where water is still outstanding in Giyani. In the Tzaneen Municipality there is Babanana Bulk Infrastructure that we are putting up there and we believe that this infrastructure will be able to give water to Bolobedu in its entirety. It will give water to N’wamitwa and augment what the Tzaneen Municipality has.



We also in the same district of Mopani have a project of bulk water supply in the Mameja the Oak which is Maruleng Municipality where we believe that once that project has been finalised it will definitely be able to give water to the Maruleng Municipality in its entirety.



In Vhembe let me indicate that we have the Sinthumule Kutama bulk infrastructure programme which actually I can be able to say that the first lap which is taking water as far as Louis Trichardt, the Makhado town, will be finalized by the beginning of next year. The second lap which is water that will go from Mavambe to Vuwani and Valdezia will be completed in 2023 and we believe that there will be 67 villages which will benefit out of this project once this project has been completed. Thank you, Chairperson.


Mr T S C DODOVU: Thanks very much, hon Chair Nyambi. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you for your response. What is quite clear is that the department is doing a lot in terms of resolving the problems of water in the Vhembe and Mopani districts which is quite good, but the challenges remain and we appreciate the fact that you are doing a lot to address those challenges. According to your plan, when do you think that the water problems in the districts of Limpopo will be finally resolved? Do you have deadlines in terms of resolving all the problems because there is need to do that? Thank you very much, hon Chair.





much, House Chair. Let me indicate that in Giyani our anticipation is that by September 2022 the project would have reached finality because we believe that as we go to different villages, as we proceed to make sure that there is sufficient water in the Nasmi shipment plant. We also make sure that we go into the villages which do not have treated water in this regard. But also indicating that the pipeline from Nandoni to Kutama-Sintumulo, the pipeline from Nandoni to Mavambe and Vuwani will also be completed in the coming year. I may not necessarily be able to say. In Giyani I know for sure. We have set down with Lepelle Northern Water and they indicated that


by September next year definitely all the outstanding villages will be having water. I would not say that in Kutama- Sintumulo, Mavambe, Vuwani this is the time, but in 2022 definitely the villages which are running short of water will have sufficient water. Thank you, Chairperson.





Modulasetulo o tshabile. [Laughter.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I guess we will have to continue from where we left off. I understand that ow it is Question

232. Question 232 is a question from hon member Dodovu. The question is directed to the Minister of Water and Sanitation.



Mr T S C DODOVU: Ho Chair, my question has already been respondent to.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: On a point of order. Chair. in seven years I have never seen something like this. Now twice in a matter of

15 minutes this House has been left without any presiding officers to preside over us. The sitting is continuing. There are two of you here in Parliament, but there is no one to backup hon Nyambi. We don’t as much as a House get so much of an excuse to say that, sorry there is no one presiding over


us. If the House erupts in chaos it is on you. There are two presiding officers in Parliament, but there is no one in the House.



With great respect, Chairperson, I don’t ... [Interruptions.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let me respond. Firstly, I apologise that this has happened and we are sorry for not being able to link up with Mpumalanga. Sorry for that. We will now move on to the second suypplementagry question – second follow-up question.



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Firstly, hon Chairperson, before I ask my follow-up question I wish to ask the Deputy Minister to please ask the Minister to respond to letters and question that I am writing and forward to the department because I don’t get any response. Deputy Minister, the SA Human Rights Commission has put the blame on the premier Stan Mathabatha’s office for the lack of water in the province of Limpopo. This is despite the provision of bulk water supply being a national competency. When will you and your department be meeting the SA Human Rights Commission to get more details as to why they are blaming the premier Stan


Mathabatha for the water challenges in Limpopo? Thank you very much.





much, Chairperson. Let me indicate that two weeks ago we had a session with the SA Human Rights Commission. We were not only dealing with the issues of Limpopo, but we were dealing with the challenges that are there with respect to water and sanitation throughout South Africa. The recommendations that they have made are those that we believe we should be able to carry forward. Once we have started working on the matters we will report. Definitely we will be able to report to Parliament and to the National Council of Provinces. But I need to indicate that what has been a challenge however is that at most we have been working in silos. The Department of Water and Sanitation would do the bulk water supply and anticipate that municipalities or the province would be able to do reticulation. These are some of the things that we are trying to correct.



Water is a right and water should be something that we work together so that where there is no water we are able to supply. That is why as we are doing the supply of bulk water towards Giyani there are already 14 villages that through that


bulk water supply we have already given them water. These are the things that we are trying to rectify.



Mr Smit, I Have heard you and I will definitely advise the Minister on the matters that you have written so that there can be a response. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks, Chairperson of the Council. Just for the record that the two minutes set aside for follow-up questions should not be used to smuggle up the views of people or to make a preamble. Hon Deputy Minister, does the Ministry has a sustainable solution to the districts that have a history of water shortages in the country in all provinces? If so, what are the relevant details? If not, why not?





Ntsube. I think like I indicated earlier on, we definitely have solutions. I need to indicate that working with the water boards we have already looked into surface water and underground water so that in areas where there is no surface water we should be able to look into the underground table and how we are going to be supplying water to those particular areas. But I also need to indicate that in some areas there is bulk water supply which actually moves from one area to the


other so that we can be able to at the end supply water to the people of a particular area. I am indicating that to where there is a depleted underground water and there is no sufficient surface water. I will give an example in this instance of the area of Mpumalanga where we are taking water from Loskop Dam towards the area of Moutse working together with the Nkangala District Municipality so that we can be able to assist those people. I think our programmes and working together with the municipalities will be able to in the end see South Africans having sustainable water in all areas.



But I need to hasten to say as South Africa we all know that we are a water-scarce country and therefore we should be able to urge in our constituencies and wherever we go for our people to use water sparingly. Thank you very much.



Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much, House Chair. I am going to take that on her behalf. Deputy Minister ...





...ndza khensa loko mi khumbile xiphiqo xa Giyani. I khale vanhu va le Giyani va ri hava mati. Va nwa mati na swiharhi. Ku humile mabiliyoni leswaku vanhu va Giyani va kuma mati, kambe na sweswi vanhu va Giyani va hava mati. Holobye, vanhu


va le Giyani va karhele hi switshembiso swa n’wina swa leswaku mi ta va nyika mati rinirini kambe mati ma nga fiki. Ku nga si fika mihlawulo Holobye va vhakele matikoxikaya ya le Giyani mo hlaya ku katsa na tiko ra ka Dzumeri eka Ndhambi. Loko va fika kona va fikile va tshembisa leswaku ku ta va na “water kan” leti nga ta phakela mati eka matiko lama ku nga hava mati.

Holobye, ndzi vulavula namuntlha “water kan” ti tile ntsena mavhiki mabirhi. Sweswi aka ha ri na “water kan” leti taka ku ta phakela vanhu eka Dzumeri hi mati. Ndzi lava ku vutisa, xana leswi a mi swi endlela ntsena mihlawulo leswaku va mi vhothela endzhaku loko mi vhotiwile “water kan” ti tlhelela endzhaku vanhu va sala va ri hava mati?





Deputy Minister, to which extent has the aging infrastructure, poor planning and limited capacity on the part of the government play in delay experience? Which assurances can be given that efficient and sustainable access to water services shall be provided going forward? Thank you.







Mutshamaxitulu. Nakambe inkomu eka muchaviseki. Mathangi lama nga tisiwa leswku ma fanele ku nyika vanhu mati na sweswi hi


ku tirhisana na Mopani District Municipality ha ha ri eka rhengu rero ra leswaku vanhu va fanele ku kuma mati.





I also want to indicate to yourself, hon member, that part of the things that we are doing is to make sure that the aging infrastructure is revitalised because in some areas the asbestos pipes are still prevalent. Therefore, as we are talking to regional bulk water infrastructure investment we are talking about new infrastructure that we are putting in place. We are also talking about revitalising the old infrastructure that may be found in most of the areas where those pipes are still prevalent.



I need to indicate that this is work in progress which we believe that as we put in new infrastructure we will revitalise and refurbish the old infrastructure. Our timeframe is that by 2023 we should be able to be having - around the area of Mopani in particular - infrastructure that can be able to give people water. I have already indicated all the municipalities where we are working currently.





Ndza khens, Mutshamaxitulu.


Question 222:




much, hon Chairperson. Let me indicate that we have spent R101 million in the area of Flag Boshielo in preparation to the pipes that will be going towards Mogalakwena. The reason why we had to spend R101 million was in preparation of the designs and the feasibility study which was to happen.



However, what was critical was that there was a discussion between the department and the mines with the intention to have a memorandum of intent which actually we are of the belief that that memorandum of intent was going to be used by a ... [Inaudible.] ... to be able to go out on the market and start sourcing funding. Nevertheless, because there was volatility in the market it became very difficult for the mines to be able to engage in making sure that the memorandum of intent that we were preparing ourselves to sign was signed. We are still holding on to make sure that in the eventuality the market becomes flexible then we can be able to sign that memorandum of intent.



The R101 million which we have used we believe that once the market is agreeable that we are able to borrow funds, we definitely are going to start afresh in making sure that there


are designs for making sure that there is feasibility. Hon member, I believe our approach as the department was that once systems are in place we will hit the ground running to make sure that there is water that comes from Flag Boshielo going to the of Mogalakwena Local Municipality. I thank you, Chairperson.



Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Your response is giving me a problem because it’s like as empty as the taps in Mogalakwena I don’t see any solution to that. Mogalakwena and Polokwane Municipalities are sitting on serious water shortages and water outages which is causing economic depression and job shedding as they cannot expand due to the lack of water in the community. The communities are asking themselves why this project doesn’t see the light of day and wonder what happened with the budget.



It seems like you are depending on the markets to get into the right space before you are going to actually help solve that problem. So, all those towns and all the development there will wait until then that seems to be your response. Minister will you commit to finish the Flag Boshielo water project and give regular feedback on the progress and not only on what the mines will do, but what your department will do. Thank you.




much, Chairperson. Let me indicate that what we are doing we are not just seated waiting for the mines to be able to come to the party, but our engagement with the National Treasury and with the provincial government is one of the engagement that we believe will be able to take us to a higher level. We may not be able to say today here and now that we’re going to be finalising the project but there are engagements that we have started since September together with the Premier of Limpopo province and the National Treasury to make sure that the project as has been indicated doesn’t wait for the memorandum of intent that was supposed to be signed between government and the mines in Mogalakwena. Thank you very much.



Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Thank you, hon Deputy Minister for your response. Deputy Minister, as you have indicated that R101 million has been spent on design work and intended documentation of feasibility studies, is it wise to incur such spending without having funding for the actual project? Thank you, hon Chair.





much, hon Shaikh. Let me indicate that in 2012 when this proposal was made, it was with the intention that as we go


into the market by the time we get funding the feasibility study and all the other necessities would have been finalised so that we don’t waste time by going to start with the feasibility study and do the designs. I would say that even now as we’re talking to Treasury - working in consultation with the Premier of Limpopo - those designs once Treasury can be able to give us a nod or give us money, those designs and the feasibility study are still feasible to take us forward. Thank you very much. I think those who came were of the opinion that money will be found and therefore when money is found we will hit the ground running. Thank you very much, Chair.





Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu.





Deputy Minister, poor financial management remains one of the biggest features of this department. Which steps have been taken to prevent unauthorised, irregular and wasteful expenditure for this project?





Ndza khensa.




Chairperson. Let me indicate that within the department there are several people that have been found guilty and there are consequences which have been implemented for those who have been found wanting particularly on irregular, and unauthorized and wasteful expenditure. I need to hasten that not only are we doing consequence management within the department, there are other state security apparatus which are looking into some of the issues which have got a bearing on money that has not been properly used. We believe that with the consequence management that we are implementing, it definitely will be a deterrent to those who are anticipating and thinking that they will in the end use and abuse state resources. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr M A P De BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, seeing that the lack of water services in the municipality poses real concern for a couple of years already. How does your department justify the fact that this project still shows no progress due to the delays caused by corruption and administration? You have stated now in your initial answer regarding the R101 million being already spent on the design of the project and tendering support. In light of that, can you, please, indicate the value of the pipes that are lying


and rusting in the fields that were wrongfully purchased for


the project? That’s the wrong size for the project. Thank you.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The next question is Question


233. This question is on water supply challenges. It has been raised and asked by hon Nkosi ... [Interjections.] ...





I have not yet responded to the follow up question.



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Uh, if you can just repeat that.



Mr M A P De BRUYN: Hon Deputy Minister, did you hear the question or must I repeat it?



The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Uh, please, repeat it. I thought Mr De Bruyn had asked a supplementary question, which was the last supplementary question. We should go straight to the Deputy Minister then.





much, House Chair. I indicated Mr De Bruyn, that there are several consequence managements that we are taking and there are other security apparatus that are looking into abuse and


misuse of state resources. We believe that even this one of R101 million, once it has been indicated that there has been misuse of resources, it definitely would follow the same route because we don’t believe that state resources should be utilised in a manner that will not benefit the communities.

Thank you, House Chair.



Question 233:




much, Chairperson. Let me indicate that, indeed the Department of Water is actively developing and implementing water supply project throughout the country. We also would like to specifically indicate that the shortage of water in Maluti-a- Phofung is one of the things that we are looking into. I need to hastily say that, the Minister has been to Maluti-a-Phofung several times, to go and look into the challenges that are there.



Currently, as we are speaking, in the next years, we will be spending R264 million in Maluti-a-Phofung, to make sure that the projects that have been identified by the municipality are definitely dealt with. There are water tankers that are supplying water to the people of Maluti-a-Phofung, currently. I also want to indicate that, there is a steering committee


which is trying to look into the problems that are there in Maluti-a-Phofung. The problems range from the pipes that bursts, power failure and critical vandalism of the pump station in that particular area.



We are also looking into operation and maintenance, with reference to the available materials that are there, so that we can be able to assist in the reparation of the pipes that are there. Sanitation is also one of the challenges that we are experiencing in that particular area. We can also indicate that there are dysfunctional waste water works that, working together with the municipality, we are trying to deal with the situation in Maluti-a-Phofung. I thank you, Chairperson.



Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Thank you, Deputy Minister for your detailed response to my question. My follow-up question is, what is the government doing to combat the theft and vandalising of new and refurbished water supply infrastructure? I thank you, hon Chair.





much, hon Nkosi. Let me indicate that, working together with Maluti-a-Phofung and the Department of Cooperative Governance, Human Settlement and Traditional Affairs, we are looking into


several issues that we believe will be able to assist, to ensure that, there are no vandalism of the pipes.



I have already indicated that, there is a steering committee which is looking into the issues of security in that particular area, focusing on sanitation infrastructure and water infrastructure in that particular area. We believe that the municipality has already started in sourcing the private securities so that they can be able to assist in the protection of the infrastructure that they are revitilising in that particular area.



Also, we are anticipating that the task teams and the steering committees that are there, will be able to assist in making sure that, people of Maluti-a-Phofung don’t get a raw deal, but that their assets are protected, not only by the security that has been hired by the municipality, but even at large, by the community of Maluti-a-Phofung. Thank you very much.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, Maluti-a-Phofung continues to have challenges with water problem. The proposed intervention by the national government is only expected to be completed in 2022. Now, Deputy


Minister, which measures are in place to provide water in the interim? Thank you, Chair.





much, hon Zandamela, and thank you very much, Chairperson. I have already indicated that, there are water tankers that have been already identified that will in the meantime assist the people of Maluti-a-Phofung with water, whilst we are dealing with the long-term provision of water and long-term sanitation of Maluti-a-Phofung. I thank you, Chairperson.



Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks, Chairperson. I think that the Deputy Minister has partly answered my question. However, Chairperson, as a resident of Free State, having known the realities the people are living under in Maluti-a-Phofung, they are really in dire, Chairperson. Our people have not been having water for years now.



I want to check with the Deputy Minister because, I think in 2019 and 2020 we did ask the Deputy President to take, particularly the people of Maluti-a-Phofung to confidence to say, when will they have water on their taps, so that at least we know that at a certain time or certain period, we as the


people of Free State, particularly those of Maluti-a-Phofung will have clean water? Thanks, Chair.





much, hon Ntsube. Let me indicate that the task teams and the steering committees that are there in Maluti-a-Phofung, not only are they focusing in the matters of security, but they are also focusing in making sure that there is water that is supplied by tankers, but at the center is to make sure that, when investment is been named, it doesn’t get vandalised.



I also need to indicate that, in Maluti-a-Phofung, like the hon member has indicated, that the Deputy President was there. Now, the teams that are working in Maluti-a-Phofung, are the Deputy Minister of the SA Police Services, SAPS, State Security, ourselves as the Department of Water and Sanitation, the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the Department of Minerals and Energy.



Just because the magnitude of the challenges that are in Maluti-a-Phofung warrants that, as we are dealing with the District Development Model, we need to zoom into where the challenges are, so that we can be able to deal with those challenges, but indeed, I agree with the hon member that, the


people of Maluti-a-Phofung are struggling when it comes to water resources, and I think that it is important that we work in a coordinated fashion, so that we can be able to deliver on the expected outcomes by the communities in the Free State.



Ms C VISSER: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, the Free State Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, intention to put Maluti-a-Phofung under section 139 intervention is nothing more than the ANC trying to control the municipality which has spectacularly loss.



Were you or your predecessors approached by Maluti-a-Phofung during the previous interventions to assist with this issue, if so, why was this a failure, and if not, would you commit to giving the new government with MAP 16 all the assistance they might ask for to fix this problem to provide water for the people? Thank you.





much, hon Visser. Let me indicate that, the Free State Province was the first province that Minister Mchunu and the team visited, that we can be able to deal with its challenges because I would say that, it is almost the entirety of the Free State Province where there are challenges. We are working


with the water boards that are found in the Free State to make sure that there is coordination in the work that we are doing.



Also, I need to indicate that, once the Department of Cooperative Governance, Human Settlement and Traditional Affairs, has been able to put the municipality under administration, our focus is not whether the municipality is under administration or how the municipality is operating. Our focus is on service delivery to the people of Free State. We also need to indicate that, working with the water boards, there are several of the municipalities that we have been able to assist in this regard.



I also believe that, the municipalities should be able to assist the water boards by paying their dues to the water boards because, in most instances, as we were making intervention, we discovered that, the municipality was owing the water board. Hence, the water board had to give very restricted and very limited water to that particular municipality that is owing.



When working together, hon members, it is important that we remind our municipalities that, paying what is due is important, and that it will make a long way to make sure that


our municipalities are able to get the services that is so needed. Thank you.



Question 221:




this financial year the department is implementing projects in all the provinces and these projects are funded through Regional Bulk Infrastructure Grant, RBIG, and also funded through Water Services Infrastructure Grant, WSIG, to address the challenges of water shortages, but also to make sure that the municipalities have sustainable and adequate water supply to the residents in those particular municipalities.



I believe that the intervention that we are doing depends from one municipality to another. But we have taken an approach of

... we need to go into municipalities using the District Development Model. I thank you, Chairperson.



Mr I NTSUBE: Deputy Minister, we want to check your comment on the ageing water infrastructure in KwaZulu-Natal, given that this is one of the causes of water outages in the province.

Thank you, Chairperson.




think how we are tackling issues of water challenges is that we make sure that whenever there’s a project we go out on ... [Inaudible.] ... and make sure that everybody is aware of what is happening. But what becomes very, very important is that municipalities at district should also be part of what we are doing as the Department of Water and Sanitation and our regional offices in all the provinces must make sure they have good project managers and good people who can be able to deal with the monitoring of the project as and when they get implemented. I thank you, Chairperson.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, what action will be taken against municipalities, provinces and water boards that underspent or misused the allocated conditional grants? And will your department consider detailed audits in all municipalities to determine the water losses, the lack of infrastructure and the demand for water per municipality?

Thank you, Deputy Minister.





have a monitoring and evaluation team that goes about looking into most of the projects that we are implementing at all levels.


I need to indicate that in our meetings with the boards part of the things that we are doing is look at the governance structures, to look at the financial status and the financial utilisation of the resources that might be there. But also looking into a situation where we would not want to see the municipality using the grants that are allocated to them and I’m not only talking to the grants that come from the water and sanitation, which is RBIG and WSIG, but also looking into the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, grant funding, that these grants should be used for what they have been requested for. And that is why the importance of having a monitoring and evaluation team that will be able to look into that.



But also, as the hon member has indicated, it is important that on a regular basis we into what are the indicators from the Auditor-General, what exactly are the quarterly reports telling us and as speedily as possible we are able to make an intervention where we believe that there is malfeasance going on in a particular project. Thank you, Chairperson.



Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Minister, across numerous municipalities right across the country there are signs of collapse of water services in failing infrastructure, the non-payment for these water services, the mismanagement and


corruption, all of which compromise the operation and the maintenance of the water systems.



Minister, when it comes to failing infrastructure there is an example of the Klipheuwel Dam, just outside Mossel Bay, the two pumps there have not been working for a number of years and the municipality is willing to take over the maintenance and the operation of the pump station.



Hon Deputy Minister, would you welcome such a co-operation arrangement and if there are any problems in getting this in place, what would your advice be? Thank you.





would say the fortunate thing was that last week we were working on the province of the Western Cape and this has been highlighted to us, and the regional offices in the Western Cape are taking this matter up.



But holistically speaking, the infrastructure that is collapsing, part of the things that we are impressing upon municipalities is that when there is Infrastructure Grant allocated, firstly, proceed with the new infrastructure, but also give a particular percentage to and invest in a


dilapidated infrastructure which actually needs to be refurbished so that as you go ahead in making sure that you give water to other people, you are also refurbishing the infrastructure that needs to be refurbished. I thank you, Chairperson.



Mr Z MKIVA: Chairperson, I just want to – because my network has been very bad where I’m at – ask the Deputy Minister that: What has been one of the major issues raised by our communities during the local government elections period?



Does the department have any mechanisms in place to ensure that corruption is not affecting the ability of government to provide water to the people? Because this has been a very fundamental question and therefore, it will be good if we can hear from the Minister on this question. Thank you, Chair.





believe that issues that are being raised by communities and in particular during the local government elections, we had a number of challenges which communities were raising, from corruption, sometimes inability of government to be able to provide water and to finish the projects on time and many other issues that we had.


Our believe is that once the municipality has received the funding they should be able to use those funds in relation to what the funds have been requested for. Our regional office must also be upbeat in working very close with the municipalities so that as the projects are there at local level, see finality and then they get finalised as speedily as possible.



My belief also is that we shouldn’t work in silos - like I indicated earlier on that - it is important that we work within the District Development Model. Once we are able to do that there will be no project or no funding that gets wasted because we are all our brother’s keepers and we are all making sure that our communities are able to get what is rightfully theirs. Thank you very much, Chairperson.



Question 223:




Water Pipeline project in Winburg is at the design stage, as we are talking. By next year, it would have gone out on tender and as early as May next year, we believe that the contractor will be on site, so that work can commence. And we believe that the local municipality, as an implementing agent, will be able to oversee this project, so that, at the end, the


community of Winburg will be able to get water. We are anticipating that this project will be finalised by 2023. Thank you.



Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, the information that I have about the water pipeline is that the previous contractor was removed from the project and a new contractor was appointed without following the proper tender process. The new contractor is from the municipal mayor’s home town of Pietermaritzburg and apparently, from a company in which Dudu Mboweni was previously involved. What I would like from the Deputy Minister is a commitment. Would the Deputy Minister commit to investigating the awarding of the contract to the new contractor before any of these funds get paid over?





think the question is straightforward, to investigate the tender. I would definitely do that, hon Michalakis. Can the hon member give me the details, so that we are able to investigate knowing where, how and who we are investigating? Thank you.


Ms N E NKOSI: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, my question is: Will the completion of the Winburg water pipeline project resolve the challenges of water in Winburg?





me indicate that, in every area we go, our intention is not to exacerbate the situation in that particular area, but to make sure that the programme and the project that we are dealing with assist the communities in alleviating the challenges.



Yes, hon member, the project will be able to assist the people of Masilonyana Local Municipality, because we believe that there will be several reservoirs that will be built in that particular municipality and recuperation will definitely improve, once the bulk pipeline has been implemented. Thank you.



Mr S ZANDAMELA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, the unavailability of clean drinking water in Winburg raise a major concern. Has the department done an investigation into the project, as the project has since been stalled and the amount spent on the project ... [Inaudible.]? The people from that municipality are still receiving water from the Jojo tanks. Thank you.




in thought that I was responding to the issues of Masilonyana Local Municipality. Be that as it may, Witbank is one of the areas that we are looking into and we are working very closely with the municipality as a Water User Association, so that we can make sure that their treatment plans are properly managed and operated, so that people can get clean water in Witbank.

Thank you.



Mr I NTSUBE: Hon Chairperson of the Council, hon Deputy Minister, in light of municipalities that have a longstanding problem in accessing clean drinking water, does the Deputy Minister have a budget in the next financial year to resolve these challenges?





hon member, working with the Water User Associations, we are on a venture of making sure that we work together with many of the municipalities that are not getting clean drinking water, so that they can have properly treated water and that we avert situations where people get sick because of the nonclean drinking water. I believe that us strengthening the ties between ourselves and the Water User Association will


definitely go a long way in making sure we get clean drinking water to the communities.



As it is now, there are several areas where there are boreholes which are being made and reservoirs which can actually be used to accommodate the water from the boreholes. We are working very closely with those that might have treatment plants that are not functioning properly.



However, but at the centre, we are making sure that we supply bulk water to most of the areas that may not necessarily be having bulk water, in this regard. However, we are not doing this alone; we are doing it with the Water User Association and other municipalities, in this regard. Thank you.



Question 234:




Chairperson, thank you very much hon Mthethwa for the question. I need to indicate that, we are on a regular basis engaging with the water boards. And our major engagement with the water boards is to look at the government issues in the water board. Look at the fincaial viabilities, accountability, infrastructure maintenance and the broader service delivery


issues, in line with the maintenance of the infrastructure that is there.



And, I want to say that during our engagement, we identified important service delivery infrastructure which has been delayed. Due to planning the infrastructure delay, due to financial or implementation capacity. Some of the key resolutions from our engagement with the water board, has been that we need to have a situation where there’s due diligence by the water boards, that they undertake. The water boards in many of the instances we found that they did not even have the executive management and therefore capacity was depleted in some of these water boards and appointment of the board.



Chairperson, I think hon members will recall that there were several of the water boards which were in an interim, and the Minister is busy resolving that, so that we can have stability. Once people are permanent in the position, it assists for them to can able to have stability.



And lastly, we try and work very hard, in making sure that we resolve the legal issues that are deterring service delivery, in most of these boards, because when there are issues that are there, legally, financially and governance, the service


delivery by these water boards suffers. I thank you Chairperson.



Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you, hon Chairperson, hon Masondo and thank you Deputy Minister for your response. Deputy Minister in your previous answer you mention that the Minister and the department has so far been visiting six provinces, and they have identified challenges that are currently being addressed there.





Nangu umbuzo wami Sekela Ngqongqoshe uthi: Lezi ezinye izifundazwe ezisele nizozivakashela nini ukuze nikwazi ukuthi nithole izinkinga nakhona ezikhona, ukuze ningenelele njengoba nenzile nakwezinye izifundazwe? Siyawujabulela umsebenzi wenu wokuvakashela kwenu izifundazwe kodwa nizoya nini kwezinye?





much hon Mthethwa, let me indicate that next week, we will be in Mpumalanga. In January we definitely will be able to finalize the provinces, which is North West and Northern Cape. And, I need to indicate that to hon Mthethwa that currently, even though we have not as yet been to those provinces, we always make sure that in the North West, the Minister and the


Deputy Ministers have been to Mafikeng, Madibeng, to Frere, the name has gone out ... Frere, whatever. So, these are areas we addressed despite the fact that we have not been to those provinces. But, our visit to the province is to make sure that we intervene and we make decisive intervention in everything.



We definitely believe that our intervention at least, we are starting to see things jelling. Amongst other things, I want to take to what the Minister receive a short message service, sms from some boards in some provinces. When the Minister was asking a question – there is no water in this municipality and the chairperson of the board just responded and said:



We have done the bulk water infrastructure and we have the reservoir, it is for the municipality to take water and reticulate.



But, that is not what South Africans understand. South Africans understand that government should be able to deliver water. They don’t want to know whether is local government, national government, provincial government or the board. And therefore, these are some of the things that we are trying to deal with, hon Mthethwa, to say that, when there are problems, it takes all of us to make sure that we deal with all those


problems. And we don’t need to wait that, this is the role of the municipality, this is the role of the national government, we are the government of the Republic of South Africa. There is no federalism in this whole thing. And therefore, there cannot be federalism when we distribute water. I thank you Chairperson.





Mnu T APLENI: Enkosi kakhulu Sihlalo.





I am sure the Deputy Minister will agree with me that the previous Minister has caused many problems between the department and the water boards, as was the case in the Amatola Water Board, which has spilled out to courts and this department lost some of those cases, which the previous Minister stubbornly pursued. Deputy Minster, did your department incurred any cost, if yes, how much? Have those issues been resolved now, if no, when are you hoping to resolve them? Thank you very much Chairperson.





much Chairperson, let me indicate to the hon member that I will definitely ... [Inaudible.] ... be able to say that this


the amount of the cost that we have been able to incur. But, I need to indicate that, where there were cases that were in court in many instances, the Minister, Minister Mchunu chose not to contest those cases, that were in court and we are moving forward. Because, I also need to indicate that ours, is not to find ourselves being the department of court, all the time being in court but our focus on service delivery. And hence, the important thing for us has always been – where we can let’s focus on service delivery. And where there are interdicts and interventions of service delivery. We try in an amicable way to resolve those type of challenges.



But, Chairperson, hon Masondo I definitely cannot be able to of ... [Inaudible.] ...say how much that has been spent, as we dealing with courts proceedings and court interdicts. Thank you Chairperson.



Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, hon Chairperson, Minister, your predecessor is well known for interference, firing of boards and replace them with cadres. Will you ensure that cadre deployments and undue interference with boards is stopped henceforth? Thank you.




Chairperson. Minister Mchunu has always maintained that we need the board that are up to the task and the board that can be able to deliver services, the board that can be able to live up to their due diligence and of course that will able be to look and preserve the finances. That critical to make sure that infrastructure that is yearned for by the South Africans, is implemented.



And therefore, I wouldn’t want to engage myself hon member into the issues of ... if the cadre has got what it takes to can be able to go into what the Minister has ... [Inaudible.]

... because all the boards get advertised and is not a secret that it will be done by the Minister. The boards that are advertise any other person has got the right to can be able to be nominated, to go and serve into that board. The cadre or whatever, as long as you’ve got what it takes as per advertisement. You definitely would be able to be the part of that board. Because we believe that you will add value into what South Africans are looking for, in terms of the delivery services. I thank you.



Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Minister, seeing as water boards are state-owned entities. It’s absurd to think that the state


can cut its own water supply. As was the case in numerous occasions in the past few years. Two weeks ago in Mangaung this happened, either due to non-payment or some or other ultimatum. Would your department please re-evaluate the management of bulk water infrastructure and the roles of water board who manages this infrastructure? And also re-evaluate the engagement between the department, municipalities and the water boards to serve in the best interest of paying services. Thank you Deputy Minister.





much Chairperson, let me indicate that earlier on I spoke to collaboration, coordination and working together between the boards, the municipalities and the department in this instance. Remember hon member that for the water to be treated, it is important that you have chemicals that will be able to go into that. You’ve got infrastructure such as electricity that would utilize.



And therefore, our discussion like you are indicating, it was Mangaung last week, it was Kroonstad the other time, it was Mafikeng, which actually had challenges. And we are talking and bringing the water boards and the municipalities together, so that we look as to what are the issues that has brought


about this type of a situation. Because when the water boards cut water, they cut water even for the residents who actually are regular payers in this regard and this is work in progress that we are dealing as the department together with the district developing model, but focusing mainly on working

together with Treasury and the Department Cooperative Governance and the Department of Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, so that people don’t get affected by the things that they did not do.



And, would say to hon member, it is work in progress, because we have seen that many of the municipalities were ... and let me say many of the residents would find themselves not having water, precisely not to say that they did not pay their rates, their taxes and all these other things but precisely because there are problems that are there.



And therefore, I think Chairperson it definitely that is very key and crucial that we should also engage stakeholders other than the ones we are engaging and I mean stakeholders as in the communities, the water users association. So that we are able to come up with a solution that can be in favour of the communities that are experiencing these challenges. I thank you, hon Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon Deputy Minister, hon delegates this brings us to the end of this question session. But, I would like to thank the Minister, Deputy Ministers as well as special delegates for availing themselves to attend this sitting of the NCOP. That hon members concludes the business of the day. The House is now adjourned.



The Council adjourned at 18:22



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