Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 17 Jun 2021

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

THURSDAY, 17 JUNE 2021

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Watch video here: NCOP Plenary ( Virtual) 

 

 

 

 

The Council met at 10:02.

 

 

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed I would like to remind you of the following. The virtual sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. The place of the sitting is deemed to be Cape Town where the seat of the National Council of Provinces is.

Delegates in the virtual sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces. For the purpose of a quorum, all delegates who are logged onto the virtual platform shall be considered present. Delegates must always switch on their videos.

Delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted. The interpretation

 

 

facility is active and any delegate who wishes to speak must use the raise your hand function.

 

 

Hon delegates, in accordance with Council Rule 247(1), there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.

 

 

Before we proceed to the Questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Ministers from the Peace and Security cluster, specifically the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, the Deputy Minister of Police, special delegates and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representative.

 

 

Furthermore, I would like to make the following remarks. The time for a reply by the Minister to a question is five minutes. There is five minutes to reply. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. A member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for a reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. As members know, the supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.

 

 

Hon members, the first question is Question 125, which is on addressing challenges of military veterans. This question has been asked by hon Nchabeleng and is directed to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. Hon Minister?

 

 

      QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS PEACE AND SECURITY - CLUSTER 1A

 

 

Question 125:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Chair and thank you to the hon members of the NCOP for the questions. The answer to Question 125 by hon Nchabeleng is as follows.

 

 

Currently, the Department of Military Veterans has a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation to build houses for eligible military veterans. There are several projects in all provinces, for example in Limpopo in Sekhukhune District, in the Western Cape in Mossel Bay, George, in KwaZulu-Natal in Msunduzi and eThekwini Metro, and in Mpumalanga. All of these houses are at different stages ... that are addressing the housing needs of military veterans. Ours is to provide a list

 

 

of people that are eligible to the Department of Human Settlements.

 

 

With regard to medical care, the department has an MOU with the Department of Defence to provide health care services through the SA Military Health Services, Samhs. Military veterans who apply and who qualify for health care benefits are given authority to access health care at our facilities which are run by the Samhs. Where the Samhs have no facilities, for example a hospital, the Samhs then refers military ... health services to the nearest health care facility or service provider, both in the public and private sectors.

 

 

Health care services provided include, but are not limited to, primary health care services, dedicated counselling, hospital care, optometry, dental care, home-based care services, frail- care services and any other. Of course, in the course of that, transport is also provided where a need is identified.

 

 

To strengthen the Samhs’ capacity, the department has officials that are based in different Samhs facilities. These are officials that are appointed solely for the purpose of assisting military veterans. I thank you, Chair.

 

 

Question 125 (cont):

 

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Thanks, hon Minister for this elaborate answer to the question. My question is, whether the department has any comprehensive programmes, including partnerships with other departments which are key in alleviating the plight of the military veterans? Has the Memorandum of Understanding entered into with the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation borne any disenable fruits?

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, I

 

should say yes, however, not to our service section, in that, for instance, this MoU was signed in 2013 and currently we have a total of 1 651 housing units which have been delivered to military veterans. Of course, Chair, as I say it may not be to the satisfaction of all military veterans because as I said some of the military veterans, for instance, had dependants.

Some of the military veterans have passed on and they leave behind dependants. Of course, those dependants have expectations then to be the ones who are granted or given houses for their youth.

 

 

So, yes, there are others of course departments other than the Department of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation. We do have an MoU, for instance, which together with the Department

 

 

of Higher Education, Basic Education we are attending to. But with regard to Higher Education, we are working closely with the Department of Higher Education so that as we pay for fees for those military veterans or even their dependants for Higher Education there should be no double dipping. We need to make sure as well that those who are being paid for do not therefore benefit from National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.

 

 

So, currently, there is a whole review which is currently being done under the Presidential Task Team Initiative, hon Nchabeleng. And that process is going to result in a number of many other government departments coming on board so that we work together to provide services even those services which should not necessarily be provided for by national government such as premiers for instance are now establishing directorship within their offices unit which are meant to assist military veterans.

 

 

If I may go on, for instance, the Department of Social Development also works very closely with us so that we assisted with the Special Relief of Distress, well like in the case of the Department of Co-operative Governance and

 

 

Traditional Affairs. That’s how we were assisted by the

 

Department of Social Development. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Mr M NHANHA: Well, thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I think I should firstly comment on your outfit today. I like the DA blue touch in your outfit today. Minister, it is now about 12 years since the Department of Military Veterans was established and I can recall a presentation made to the Fourth Parliament as Portfolio of Defence and Military Veterans about this grand plan to address the plight of former soldiers regardless of whether they came from statutory or not statutory forces.

 

 

I am aware, Minister, in your responds to hon Nchabeleng, you mention projects around the country but I would want us to zoom into a particular group. Now that the SA Cape Corps Military Veterans Association is finally recognised by your department, are you prepared to publicly apologised to the members of the SA Cape Corps for being denied due recognition as military veterans?

 

 

Secondly, what kind of assistance and benefits thereon have been extended to the members of the SA Cape Corps Veterans Association? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Chair and thank you very much, hon Nhanha, the mayor of Gqebega, Port Elizabeth. [Interjections.] I just want to say Gqeberha. Thank you very much. Hon member, yes, after a long struggle and after a long time, we have indeed recognised the SA Cape Corps, SACC.

 

 

Of course, Chair, now I don’t understand when you say maybe I should apologise for that. There was a reason for that for us to engaged with several entities to make sure that we are doing the right thing. First and foremost, you remember, hon Nhanha and hon members, that one of the reason why I was saying we cannot recognised the SACC, it was because in my view and view of others, the SACC, all those members who are part of the SACC in the first instance should have been registered by the Council of Military Veterans Organisation, CMVO, which is an entity which represents all those who were part of the SA Defence Force prior to 1994. So, that was the agreement. However, the SACC really pushed and convinced everybody that the CMVO has not assisted them in dealing with their challenges.

 

 

But not only that, some of them actually left the SA Defence Force even before 1994. And therefore, my not necessarily be

 

 

recognised as former members of the SA Defence Force but that they are a group which is called the coloureds Corp mainly based in the Western Cape which some of whom felt because of victimisation actually left the Defence Force and therefore, we needed to have either a special recognition of that grouping and we have done that. Obviously we have done that, their names now do appear on the data base. And for now, what we have been doing is to assist in whatever way the SACC as a grouping whether infect them members do qualify for some of the benefits obviously then individual want to register as an association or as an organisation.

 

 

Then individual members whose names appear on the data base are then subjected to proper verification. No, before your name is put on the data base, you are subjected to proper verification so that we are certain that as you come forward to say you are a member of the SACC indeed you are a member of the SACC indeed you are subjected with the verification process. So, that is what is happening now. Obviously, now that the SACC is recognised, if for instance the SACC wants to go to a conference and I know they had meetings before and those have been funded and they have been given support by the Department of Military Veterans.

 

 

Really in the main we start by recognising the organisation and thereafter we then subject members to a verification process so that that process is not abused by elements who are not necessarily members of the SACC. Thank you, hon Nhanha.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Minister, the Military Veterans in our country continues to live in utmost poverty, neglected and marginalised in the new political dispensation. They have fought for this freedom that we have today. They have tried in many occasions, Minister, to raise their issues but your government keep on failing them.

 

 

Minister, can you in this House today give us the statistics as to when you speak about allocation of housing how many of those per province or even give us the real statistics have benefited from the programme of housing because your government said there shall be water, housing and security and we are not seeing that. Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Chair. Hon Chairperson, hon Mokause is correct in suggesting that, in caring out our responsibility, we may not have done 100% in terms of our performance. However, seeing

 

 

that you are requesting for a breakdown, I will give you a breakdown as follows, for instance, of housing.

 

 

let me start with Gauteng, Gauteng for instance, has delivered 783 houses for military veterans, in Mpumalanga, 226 houses delivered, in the Eastern Cape, 192 houses delivered, in KwaZulu-Natal, 21 houses - not satisfactory at all because we have a big number of military veterans in KwaZulu-Natal and in the Free State, 65 houses. So, I am just saying that we may not have performed to the best of our ability but we must also remind one another colleagues that when hon Mokause, you are saying for instance, the government of democracy came in 1994, you are correct, we are all correct is X number of this.

 

 

But the actual decision to establish a department which will solely assist military veterans by the time it was established it was long overdue. It is a decision which should have been taken right at the beginning. However, well, it did not happen, that’s water under the bridge. The issue now is, it is there and we are trying our best to attend to the issues which you are raising.

 

 

You are probably aware, hon Mokause, that currently there is a Presidential Task Team which has been established by the

 

 

President led by the Deputy President. The reason why we have that Presidential Task Team, it is precisely because there were issues raised by military veterans and the inability of the Department of Military Veterans to deliver in a satisfactory manner to military veterans. So, there is an intervention which is meant to assist the military veterans to get what is rightfully due to them. I thank you, hon member.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. The fourth and the last supplementary question comes from, hon De Bruyn. Hon De Bruyn?

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, Chairperson ... [Inaudible.] ...

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are not audible, hon De Bruyn. Try to be close to the mic as far as possible as you can.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Yes. [Inaudible.]

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are not audible. Please unmute

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: ... [Inaudible] ... Can you hear me now?

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please speak from that position.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Okay. Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, concerning the numerous complaints and negative media coverage regarding the registration of military veterans ... [Inaudible] ...

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair,

 

please if you could just request the hon member to come closer to the mic because I can’t hear, I am sorry. He is not audible at all.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, Minister, one more time I request the member or urge the member to speak as close to the mic as possible and maintain a position that works. Let’s try and hear an, hon member.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Am I audible?

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon De Bruyn?.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Am I now audible, Chairperson?

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That’s much better.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Is it much better? Okay. Thank you.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Hon Minister, through you Chair, considering the numerous complaints and negative media coverage regarding the registration of military veterans it is said that so many veterans most of which are elderly have no access to the right of composition due to the inability of the department to ensure accurate and timely registrations. My question is, when will the registration process and systems be fully and accurately function to provide all qualifying veterans access to the rightful of composition. Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon De Bruyn and thank you, hon members for the question once more. It is not so much a challenge of registration, hon De Bruyn. Registration of members is not an issue. The issue which has to a certain extent impacted negatively on the rolling out of benefits to military veterans, it is more the accuracy of the data base. It is more the accuracy of the credentials of people who have come forward and registered their names.

 

 

Now, in some instances, you don’t have challenges at all. Remember that a number of people, a number of names credentials of people who are on the data base was submitted to the Department of Defence. They submitted what is called the Processing Completion Report, PCR, which are members who have served indeed in the Defence Force whether prior or post 1994. So, where names are contained in the PCR, it has not been a problem to register then on a data base. Where it has become a difficult, Chairperson and hon members, it was people whose names do not appear on the PCR whose names suddenly now are appearing now that there is a Department of Military Veterans. And I am not saying all of the people who come during the period their credentials are questionable. But it is important that as you registered people that you subject them to a proper verification that you are sure that the people who are benefiting from this benefits of government indeed are military veterans.

 

 

So, the registration, hon Chair, is not a problem at all. In fact, we do rely on the PCR and most of the people on the PCR in fact are not questionable, these are military veterans. But we do have a small group whose credentials have been questioned by the verification process. Thank you very much,

 

 

hon de Bruyn. I trust that I have responded to your question in a satisfactory manner. Thank you.

 

 

Question 136:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you,

 

Chairperson, once more, and thank you too hon Ryder for the question, in response to the question from the hon member, indeed, hon Ryder, as the Department of Defence, we have done what I believe is everything in engaging the National Treasury during the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, process presenting the adverse, of course, implications of the budget reduction on the Department of Defence.

 

 

The Portfolio Committee on Defence as well has been engaged for their intervention. The department has further engaged the Cabinet by means of a Cab Memo just to highlight to everybody the implications, not only for the Department of Defence but also on the defence industry of South Africa by these budget cuts. Currently, we are awaiting confirmation of a trilateral meeting between the National Treasury and the Department of Public Enterprises.

 

 

We have done everything. Our latest meeting was yesterday on

 

16 June, we were having a meeting with the National Treasury,

 

 

still trying to find the best possible solution for navigating through this process. Now, one of the things which we have done, we have also presented to the public, to the portfolio committee and I think to the joint standing committee as well. A rejuvenation plan of the defence force that will partly assist us to cut down on our compensation of employees’ budget so that the rest of the programmes are not affected by the budget cuts.

 

 

Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, good morning Minister, thank you for the reply, Minister, the decline in the defence budget is a ticking time bomb and it's unsustainable. Our defence force is literally at breaking point and the Minister regularly demands these cuts every time that she appears before us, every time we do this budget. So why then with a budget of R1,25,5 million for 21-22 thus the Minister has one of the most expensive Ministries in the country, but these funds should rather be aimed at helping our armed forces directly. Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Oh! Sorry, sorry, Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Ryder, you are correct, the decline of the budget of the SA National Defence Force started when we look at going back now, you'll realise that, whereas we talk about 10 to 15 years, it has been going on for quite some time. It is easy for people who are perhaps not informed about the importance of having a SA National Defence Force.

 

 

It's very easy when there are challenges with regards to the national fiscus to say, let us reduce, let us take off from the SA National Defence Force budget. For instance, if people don't understand what the Special Defence Account is all about, it's easy for people to believe that the Special Defence Account is some kind of slush fund of the defence force when, in fact, the Special Defence Account is an account that is meant to ensure that the defence force has all the capabilities it requires.

 

 

So I'm just, therefore, saying, hon member ...

 

[Interjections.] ... I don’t think ... [Interjections.]

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I call upon for ... [Inaudible.]

 

... there in the background and whoever else may be involved to please desist from making noise and creating unnecessary problems. Please proceed, Minister.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, hon

 

Chair, so on our side, we have done our best. I believe we have done everything to highlight the plight of the Department of Defence to sensitize people about the impact of the continued reduction of the budget because the defence force, whereas people may think that it is not a service delivery department but people need to understand your defence force is like insurance. Your defence force is something that you invest in so that when challenges do occur in the country when your last line of defence is required, then you can call on the defence force to come in.

 

 

If I may use, hon Ryder, for me, I think the COVID-19 period highlighted to everybody the importance of investing in your defence force even though you did not need certain capabilities because it was an invisible fight against an invisible enemy. Although you did not require armaments the point is, the fact is, you have to invest in regular and continuous training, the state of readiness of the defence

 

 

force must be up to scratch all the time so that in the event you are confronted by the kind of situation we found ourselves in, for instance, where you had to mobilise the entire defence force, where you had to mobilise your reserve force as well, your defence force is not caught napping. So in my view, I would say we have done everything and I hope that one day, people will see the importance of investing because it's more investing in the defence force than anything else, Chairperson. Thank you.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Chairperson and thank you for your responses, hon Minister, you would certainly agree that these budget cuts affecting all government departments including and especially your department but has the department worked out mechanisms to ensure that the defence force maintains its capacity to protect our sovereignty and the people of South Africa despite these budget cuts. Thank you, hon Chairperson.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Chairperson and thank you, hon member, for the follow-up question, I think, as the SA National Defence Force, as I said earlier on, in response to the hon Ryder, we have presented, for instance, a plan to the committee, which talks

 

 

to amongst others, our rate of absorption of members of the defence force. Let me use this as an example, for instance, year in, year out, every year, we would advertise for young people to come into the defence force for the Military Skills Development Programme. And thereafter we then absorb those members into the SA National Defence Force. As I am talking, right now, this is not going to happen on a yearly basis. We will do it every second year. We will do that. Our next, for instance, intake now, for the Military Skills Development grouping will be in 2023. We are precisely trying to reduce the numbers of people we are bringing into the force. But, on the other hand, yes, being the last line of defence of the Republic of South Africa, I think we are beginning to get into grips with the fact that the defence of the Republic cannot rest solely on the boots on the ground, on human beings.

 

 

We now must move beyond that and look at issues of technology. We are in for Fourth Industrial Revolution and, therefore, we need to bring in other systems such as your radar systems, unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, bring them in so that we deploy them and monitor them from wherever. So it can't just be reliance on warm bodies to do the work of the defence of the sovereignty of the Republic of South Africa.

 

 

We now have to move beyond that because other countries are moving and I believe that when we do so, it may be a bit expensive, but in future, it will reduce the numbers of personnel we need in the defence force. For as long as we have not moved at the rate at which we should be moving to utilise technology for the defence of the Republic, then, of course, we rely on warm bodies. Thank you.

 

 

Mr K MOTSAMAI: Thank you, Chairperson, thank you, hon Minister, I would like to ask the Minister, what other intervention is the department doing in order to have enough resources for this security purpose with the lesser budget that the department has? I thank you, Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson,

 

one of the biggest problems or challenges of the country, which challenges of the country impact negatively on the defence force, for instance, is the imminent collapse of the defence industry of South Africa. Now, my and our view in the defence force is that we need the defence industry to continue to survive, to compete in the economic space.

 

 

South Africa has one of the best, well-organised defence industry, a defence industry that was established at a time

 

 

when there was an arms embargo against South Africa and people were able to put together a defence industry that was well- oiled machinery and was able to still market their systems.

 

 

And I believe and I'm raising this because if we're going to allow the defence industry to collapse in South Africa, amongst other things, what it means is that this country soon will rely on other countries to acquire very critical and strategic capabilities. So we will not rely on our sovereign capabilities as the SA National Defence Force.

 

 

So, our view is that, let us try, all of us, to get the country to keep its capabilities, to keep the defence industry that is one of the most prestigious entities that we have been having in the country so that we do not have to go out and look for capabilities that we required here from other people outside of the borders of the Republic of South Africa.

 

 

We believe that could be one of the ways in which the defence force at some point will be self-reliant because our view is that there must come a time when the defence embarks on programmes that will generate, we are not an income-generating entity, yes, but we must embark on programmes at some point that will assist to generate something and cover some of the

 

 

programmes that are not covered by the current budget allocation, Chairperson.

 

 

So I hope that we will be able to do that. There's a lot of thinking. There's a lot of discussion amongst ourselves about how best to do this, Chair.

 

 

Question 126:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

 

Chairperson, with reference to question 126 from hon Ndongeni, our response is as follows, Chair: We are currently engaging the Portfolio Committee on Intelligence — that is with specific reference to CO443E — with the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on how to manage the possible risk of completeness and accuracy within the covert space which includes crime intelligence of the South African Police Services, Saps, and State Security Agency. The three entities are basically dealing with issues which have been raised by the Auditor-General.

 

 

The Department of Defence is also exploring other avenues on how to audit these covert transactions with the help of the Inspector General of the South African National Defence Force

 

 

and the Defence Intelligence to provide some assurance on these transactions.

 

 

The Public Audit Act 25 of 2004 section 22 state that when the Auditor-General reports on the account established by the Security Services Special Act 81 of 1969, the Special Account Act 45 of 1974 or any other confidential special account established by either Acts of Parliament, the Auditor-General must then have due regard for the special nature of the account.

 

 

On the completeness of irregular expenditure, the procurement division, finance division and internal audit of our department are currently working together as a multidisciplinary team to investigate the root causes of the irregularities identified. The internal audit team will also perform audits at procurements centres to identify possible additional irregularities and advice management to record and account for them.

 

 

Of course there is ongoing of training and education of procurement practitioners to ensure that they too understand the supply chain management prescripts and legislations and apply them consistently. Oversight visits to procurement units

 

 

across the country focusing on high risk areas and findings and instituting corrective measures such as record management are being conducted.

 

 

Lastly, the accounting officer and the chief of the South African National Defence Force have been tasked by myself to enhance and prioritise consequence management. I thank you, Chair.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Nksz N NDONGENI: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo weBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo, ndibulise nakuwe Mphathiswa ohloniphekileyo. Enkosi Mphathiswa ngengcaciso ondiphe yona kodwa kodwa ikhona ingcaciso encinci endinqwenela ukuba undicacisele kuyo. Kule minyaka idlulileyo siqaphele ukuba kukhona ukuphucuka kwindlela ekuphethwe ngayo iimali zesebe kwakunye nendlela ezisetyenziswe ngayo.

 

 

Sinqwenala ukube uMphathisa akhe asicacisele ukuba aba bantu bebechaphazeleka ekungayiphathini ngendlela imali kwakunye nokunika ingcaciso ecacileyo malunga nendlela yokusethenziswa kwemali ngokuka-Auditor-General,ngokoMphicothi-zincwadi Jikelele aye athathwa kusini na amanyathelo asemthethweni

 

 

okutshutshisa nokuphanda ngenjong zokoluleka nokubutisa iimali ezo kuthe kwenzeka ubugwenxa.

 

 

Lo mbuzo siwubuza kumaxa amaninzi kuba siphawula ukuba abasebenzi kumasebe baye bangakwazi ukunikezela ingxelo ecacileyo malunga nokuphathwa kakubi kwemali karhulumente kwaye abafunyanwa bephandwa ngenjongo zokubuyisa ezo mali zenzelwe iinkonzo eziya eluntwini. Enkosi Mphathiswa. Enkosi Sihlalo.

 

 

English:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Ndongeni,

 

consequence management indeed, sometimes can be a bit of a challenge because if your investigation is not conclusive on these matters and does not come out with proper findings and recommendations, at times it poses a challenge for the department. For instance, right now there are several internal investigations which are being conducted in the south African National Defence Force to deal with some of the issues which you have already alluded to.

 

 

If I may mention this, for instance, in 2019 I wrote a letter to the President and the President cited a proclamation as a result for the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, to investigate

 

 

a specific project which at the time related to information technology, IT, in the department. I am sure that hon members you are now aware that that investigation has given us very positive outcomes and the company was in the media. In fact, the company called EOH has now been directed to pay back some money to the Department of Defence because of the manner in which things were done, not just in awarding, but I think in the costing of the project.

 

 

So, where proper investigations have been conducted, where there are clear findings and recommendations, we implement. As I say that this is not the only project which is currently under investigation by the SIU, there are several others. Some of them as I said are internal investigations and of course once the investigations are concluded the people are subjected to disciplinary processes based on the findings of that investigation. As I say, it becomes very difficult when your investigation is not conclusive. An investigation must be conclusive and give you a solid case on which you can then subject your members to a disciplinary process but we are trying our best, hon Ndongeni. Thank you very much.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Minister. The next supplementary question which is the third supplementary question comes from hon Apleni. Hon Apleni?

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, we have requested the Table to

 

withdraw hon Apleni’s question. Thank you.

 

 

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chair, good morning to the Minister. Thank you for your reply. Not that I could quite understand it because the qualification of the audit opinion relates to the lack of information around certain sensitive projects. The disastrous expenditure of funds on the Cuban vaccine was referred to as a procurement of a strategic weapon in answer to a potential biological warfare threat. Minister, will this thing mean that the documentation around this sensitive project will also be hidden from the Auditor-General? Thank you, Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Let me start by

 

setting the record straight. There is nothing strategic about the procurement of interferon. There is no biological warfare and I want to repeat what I said before the committee when one of the uniformed members made a statement to that effect where I actually corrected the member and said that there is nothing strategic about it and there is nothing to be hidden about it.

 

 

In fact, we have disclosed and given all the information to the office of the Auditor-General related to the procurement of interferon. So, interferon is just medication and not a weapon that is required by the South African National Defence Force.

 

 

When you talk about projects that have been identified as very difficult to audit are covert projects. And please, hon member, allow me to repeat what I have said again in the House. I am not sure whether it could have been in the National Assembly. An MTT has been established to investigate some of the issues which have been raised relating to issues in defence intelligence to be specific. That team is currently doing its work and hopefully soon we will receive a report which we will present to Parliament because when we were establishing the team we actually did inform Parliament.

 

 

So, I am just saying that, yes, indeed there are sometimes limitations in relation to the scope of limitation in auditing some of the projects such as your covert operations. However, in my view, there is nothing secretive about the specific item you have referred to; it is a straightforward matter. However, I have directed for an investigation to be conducted, not because the decision was taken but how it was done and why is

 

 

it that this specific project is associated with being a programme which could not otherwise initially be audited by the Auditor-General because it is a straightforward matter. Thank you.

 

 

Question 118:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chairperson

 

and hon members, and thank you to hon Motsamai for the question. Chair, the response to this question is as follows: Yes, the Department of Military Veterans is in the process of decentralising services to the provinces. To date, the Department of Military Veterans offices have been opened and are accessible to military veterans in the following provinces Chair. For instance, in the Eastern Cape we now have an office of military veterans in Caxton House, Terminus Street in East London, but of course we always had co-ordinators on the ground. However, the coordinators on the ground on the Department of Military Veterans did not have space from which to operate.

 

 

In the Free State, you will find it in Charlotte Maxeke and Westburger Street in Bloemfontein. In the Mpumalanga Province, you will find it in Samora Machel Drive at the Standard Bank building in Mbombela. In the Northern Cape you will find it in

 

 

corner Chapell and Currey Street in Kimberley. In the North West, you will find it in Mafikeng on Molopo Street. In the Western Cape, you will find it in Church Street in the Cape Town City Centre itself.

 

 

Hon Chair and hon members, there are ongoing efforts to create and enhance technical capacity to fully meet the service delivery requirements of military veterans in the above provinces. Furthermore, the Department of Military Veterans has through the Presidential Task Team engaged the provincial departments to support the expansion of the delivery of services and benefits to military veterans.

 

 

I should pause here Chair and make the point that, quite a significant number of premiers have been really assisting the Department of Military Veterans, sometimes through their own budget allocations in their different departments. They have assisted to some great extent military veterans in those areas. I can cite for instance KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Gauteng, the Eastern Cape. These are some of the premiers who

 

 

we found to have been actively assisting us to rollout some benefits to alleviate the plight of some of our military veterans.

 

 

Services that are currently being rendered to military veterans are limited to customer care services and other services in collaboration with other government entities. Work of course is underway now to secure office space in Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. You will note that I have mentioned six provinces where we have offices. Now these three provinces are also securing office space for the Department of Military Veterans. However, as I said earlier on, it does not mean that those premiers are not assisting us. They are really – in particular KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng have been very helpful in alleviating the plight of military veterans. I thank you Chair.

 

 

Ms M BARTLETT: Thank you very much hon Chair. Good morning to the hon Chair, Minister, hon members and my colleagues. Hon Minister, thank you very much for your response. Hon Minister you will agree with me that decentralising offices will make it easier to provide services to the military veterans.

Minister, one of the challenges faced by the military veterans is getting into the database of the department which makes it difficult for these veterans and their families to access the services.

 

 

Hon Minister, my question is whether the department is working around the clock to resolve challenges relating to this database especially on military veterans. Thank you very much hon Minister.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much hon Chair and thank you to hon Bartlett for the follow up question. Hon Bartlett you are correct that, the decentralisation of offices of the Department of Military Veterans will make the Department of Military Veterans more accessible to military veterans because, at times indeed military veterans have found themselves having to spend a lot of their money coming to head office in order for them to access services, or even to query something which has not been done maybe a benefit which should have been granted to a military veteran.

 

 

Chairperson, in relation to the database which has been there by the way, we currently have a unit which is dealing with issues of database verification. This unit is not necessarily going over all the names which are contained on database, but definitely you do have names which have been a subject of query, a subject of concern. Therefore, the data verification team has been hard at work here in Johannesburg. We have now

 

 

also rather than having them confined to Gauteng, the data verification team is moving around to different provinces so that people whose names have not been entered into the database, who had registered and feel that there is injustice because their names are still not there, can now be given the opportunity to come forward and interact with that database verification team.

 

 

Additional to that, it is not just the team which has not been there. We have also allowed Chair for observers to join the verification team. If for instance – let me utilise the example of Azanian People’s Liberation Army, Apla. Apla for some time is an entity which has been there. Apla has been operating without the necessary recognition of the association vessel. Apla has now been recognised, Apla is receiving assistance. In doing so Chair, you then must still subject individual members of the association to a verification process.

 

 

In order for us to do that in a speedy manner but also to reach out to everybody, we have agreed that, his process should not be done on a virtual platform. The verification process should reach the different provinces and allow for people to present themselves before the committee and gather

 

 

whatever information required, so that people’s names can then

 

be entered into the database.

 

 

Chair, you are right, decentralising our service delivery model, decentralising the verification process, decentralising and working closer with provincial governments is going to assist us greatly to reach out to all military veterans who qualify from the service from the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. I thank you hon Bartlett.

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson! Chair! Chair!

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes!

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: I would like you to offer me the opportunity to ask the question on behalf of hon Motsamai. I think he has got a problem with connectivity.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ok! Please proceed.

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you very much Chair. Minister, what are the interventions since the operational sites are less because the websites have less information on the department to be accessible and efficient? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I am really

 

sorry Chair. I am really sorry about this. Hon member, will you please repeat your question just for my clarity.

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: What are the further interventions since the operational sites are less because the websites have less information for the department to be accessible and efficient? Thank you very much Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Ok, operational

 

and that our website have less information. Well I guess it is something that we have to look into Chair. If you - the one area which has been slightly problematic and I don’t know in this instance you will forgive me, I don’t know whether you probably are referring to what. The one issue which is not reflected on our website maybe is the area of sometimes the dependants, for instance if I may use this example, right now there is a call on the department to extend the health benefits to the dependants of military veterans.

 

 

There maybe not adequate information related to that precisely, because we too in the Department of Military Veterans are currently dealing with that issue. In principle, we have taken a decision but however we have to amend the

 

 

legislation such that we are able to extend those benefits which were meant purely for military veterans to be extended to the dependants of military veterans.

 

 

May just also correct something that I said earlier on, which is when I said Apla, I was referring to Azanian National Liberation Army, Azanla. It is not Apla which has just been registered, Apla was amongst the first ones. It is Azanla which has just been recognised as an association representing military veterans and we are working very closely with them.

 

 

Chair, I am just saying therefore, one of things we need to do and you are not the first person to raise that, there is not adequate information on the website of the Department of Military Veterans including for instance who the dependants are. That is why I am making reference using the issue of dependants. This is a matter as we are now doing this intense work of correcting some of the ills which have been there, and correcting the manner in which things have been done in the department. These are some of the issues that we will look into. Thank you for raising the matter of the website because, once more I will raise the issue with the officials of the department.

 

 

Chair fortunately, I am sure you are aware now, we also have finally – and I know that this has been a sore point for all of us, particularly for the Members of Parliament that, we were not having a permanent Director-General of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. We have now since appointed a Director-General for the Department of Military Veterans, it is a woman. The Director-General for the Department of Military Veterans is Madam Mpolweni. Thank you very much.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Mnu I M SILEKU: Mandibulise Sihlalo, ndibulise nakuMphathiswa. Mphathiswa ...

 

 

English:

 

... your database of military veterans is in shambles. It has been for years. The MK National Council, MKNC and uMkhonto weSizwe Military Veterans Association, MKMVA do not even want to recognise each other let alone members of other organisations. You cannot surely determine where resources are needed if you cannot establish who the rightful beneficiaries are. The question is: To what extent does this aggregate your failure? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Sileku,

 

thank you for the question but ...

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

... unochuku.

 

 

Mnu I M SILEKU: Andinachuku.

 

 

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKUHUSELO NAMAGQALA OMKHOSI: Unochuku!

 

Unochuku!

 

 

English:

 

Hon Chair thank you very much. The issues, and I don’t want to speak on behalf of the MK National Council or the MKMVA, I hold no brief from them. However, whether the MKNC or the MKMVA as you have referred to, it does not dispute the fact that, those are military veterans. They may belong to different entities within their organisations where they are, but there is no dispute about the fact that the members, the people in those organisations are in fact military veterans.

 

 

However, if you talk about the database and sometimes recognition of people who do not necessarily fall into the category of military veterans is just a matter which cuts

 

 

across everybody and perhaps all associations. Hence having this verification team moving around in the provinces, so that where there is a question and where there is a query around the credentials of a military veteran, that can be attended to.

 

 

Yes, the database - it is not necessarily in shambles. No it is not in shambles but I would say the database has its own challenges as I said, if it did not have challenges we would not be having a verification team. The fact that we’ve had to put together a verification team talks to the nature of the challenges we have. These are challenges which you find everywhere, which cuts across all associations because sometimes people would want to make us believe that they are military veterans when in fact they are not in the category of military veterans.

 

 

So, the whole – I need to say this, within the work streams which has been established by the Presidential Task Team, there is that work stream that deals with the issue of the legislative review and amongst others the issue – that legislative review talks to who is military veteran, not on the interpretation or the understanding of individuals but what is contained in the law. Who is a military veteran?

 

 

Therefore, who should benefit from the services which are being rolled out for military veterans. Thank you Chair. Chairperson can you hear me? Chair can you hear me?

 

 

THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The next question is Question

 

127. Yes, I can hear you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you

 

Chair.

 

 

Question 127:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

 

Chairperson, let me thank hon Ntsube for the question. Hon Chairperson, let me start by apologising because I think I am having problems with my network but I will try my best because at some point I thought it was frozen from my side when I was answering this one. In responding to hon Ntsube, the Military Skills Development Programme, MSDP focuses on young people as its objective. Since the inception of this programme, intakes in 2003 a total of 18 078 females have been appointed in the South African National Defence Force. The current policy of the MSDP makes provision for the 30%-70% split for all intakes, 30% females and 70% males at entry level. When I am

 

 

saying 30% here I am talking minimum with an age restriction from 18 years to 26 years.

 

 

The following are the interventions supplied by the South African Defence Force to enhance the interest of women and young people and thus improving the intake of women and young people into the South African Defence Force. Obviously if you talk about age and say between 18 and 22, that is the young people anyway. We have a programme that we have initiated of youth camps where the South African Defence Force utilises youth camps that are held during school holidays as a platform to stimulate the interest of young people of South Africa into the Defence Force.

 

 

These youth camps are held each year in different provinces. Some learners participate in the youth camps for a period not exceeding four weeks of school holidays whereby they are exposed and are taught different military aspects that encompass the military culture. That exposure allows for us to engage with young people about the different programmes in the South African Defence Force. There is a tendency for some of the young people when they look at the defence force they think that to be a soldier is to carry a gun. In fact, there are different skills in the department that are required.

 

 

If I may utilise this example, we have four services, namely, the Navy, Air Force, South African Health Services and the Army. Each of the services requires a particular skills sect of young people. So, we also interact with young people who are doing Matriculation so that we use these camps I referred to, to assist matriculants to study and have an opportunity to prepare for their National Certificate examinations. I will tell you how. For instance, with matric students we assist in areas of mathematics and science and in areas of technology so that they perform well so that those who would like to join the South African National Defence Force have the necessary requisite qualification to come in.

 

 

Of course, the learners are also exposed to the military discipline, military culture, different military masteries and rank levels. Those are the things we do. The South African National Defence Force displays different military assets and bring personnel to showcase South African National Defence Force with the aim of stimulating interest on these young people. I have found, which shows that, when young people see a helicopter they all run towards it. They want to know and show interest. We do not want them to just show interest only on the helicopter, we want them to show interest on joining the South African National Defence Force. Those who can be and

 

 

who would qualify to train as pilots must come in and train as pilots. Others, of course would look at the personnel and see that we have doctors within the South African Military Health Services and we also have nurses.

 

 

So, what we showcase in the main are very specific skills so that young people can be attracted into the defence force and do not see the defence force as just an entity where you just come in and you carry a weapon. Yes, you will be trained as a soldier but there are specific skills as well which are required. We are attracting for instance engineers to come to the defence force. Even when you look at our reserve force you will see that we have a number of engineers who are part of the reserve force and are available when we mobilise engineers to come and assist us. So, yes, we try our best and of course when we talk about women, for instance, we are not exposing them only to nursing, we expose all skills because we want them to come in.

 

 

In fact, the team which was in the Democratic Republic of Congo of engineers two years ago, was in fact commanded by a woman and that was our engineering formation. In a nutshell, I am saying we are trying our best. It is not easy. It is an environment which initially was an environment which was male

 

 

dominated but we are trying to attract women into the defence force. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Mr I NTSUBE: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, I was saying that I am really covered by the response of the Minister. She has really answered all the questions that I had. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Chairperson, let me apologise for not switching on the video. Where I am now I am having a challenge of the network. Before I forward my question let me welcome my Whip, hon Mokause. Chairperson, the Minister has spoken about the pilots. What I want to know from the Minister is what is the department of the Minister doing in order to introduce women pilots in Bloemfontein Base in the Free State as the symbol of women empowerment in the military? Thank you very much.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

 

Chairperson, thank you to hon Moletsane for the follow up question. Well, the programmes which are there are meant to attract everybody including women. Of course we do have a specific interest in women, however, I would not be able to say to you with specific reference that to this base in

 

 

Bloemfontein this is what we are doing. The programme you find in the defence force and in the different services in the defence force is the programme which is meant to attract all young people in the military and the different mastering and all of that. However, there may be a small number. We do have a significant number of pilots who are women. We do have helicopter pilots and the pilots in fighter jets.

 

 

The number may not be equal to those of men who are pilots but also you will remember hon Moletsane that it really also depends. You can push thus far; it depends on the person you are training that where does trainee sees herself or himself. Does the person want to come in as a pilots or not? If the person wants to be a pilot, then we provide programmes that are going to enhance her ability to be eligible to train as a pilot. Some people may not necessarily be wanting to be pilots. So, we are trying to be the best in all areas.

 

 

If you look at the navy as well, you have a number of women in the navy and you also have a number of women in the army but the mastering is the different matter. It really depends as well on the individual. Sometimes instructors may identify some potential in a particular individual and say this person may make a good whatever. If the person is not interested in

 

 

that and would rather be doing something else, you cannot force it on the person. There are areas, skills or expertise which you cannot be able to impose on an individual. An individual must really be comfortable with what he or she has chosen to focus on.

 

 

What is important for me us that the training does not discriminate against women. The training of the defence force in whichever of the four services is the training which is meant for both men and women. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Mnu M NHANHA: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, Mphathiswa, kwimpendulo yakho ndikuvile uchaphazela ama-30 nama-70 ekhulwini kubantu abangoomama nakubantu abangootata emajonini xa nithatha abantu abatsha. Uphinde wachaza ngeenkampu zolutsha ezinjongo zikuvuselela umdla kulutsha ukuze lube ngamalungu omkhosi.

Umdla wam Mphathiswa uphathelene nala ma-30 ekhulwini oomama ubuthethe ngawo. Iingxelo ziyavakala, kumaxesha amanzi, ukuba abantu abangoomama, ingakumbi abalulutsha, basazifumana bejamelene neengxaki ezinkulu zokuxhatshazwa ngokwesini. Ezi zinto Mphathiswa zenzeka nangona uMlawuli Jikelele wesebe engumntu ongumama.

 

 

Kubonakala ingathi kuncinci kakhulu ukungquzulana nalo mkhuba ombi kangaka. Kha ukhe uchubele le Ndlu Mphathiswa ukuba kutheni na emva kweminyaka engama-20 eli sebe lifeda ukunqanda lo mkhuba, phofu aba mama baphethwe kakubi, kumatyeli amaninzi, ngabantu abangootata abakwizikhundla eziphezulu apha emkhosini. Kutheni isebe livumela ukuba kutshatyalaliswe ikamva lamanina emkhosini ngelixa ilizwe linxakama ngempatho- mbi nempatho-gadalala yoomama sithi madoda?

 

 

Ingaba uyakubona kusini na ukuba oku kufeda kwesebe kungakhokelela ekubeni amanina abenomdla emkhosini wokhuseleko arhoxe kuba esoyikisela ukuphathwa gadalala ngootata, kulento kuthiwa yi ...

 

 

English:

 

... gender-based violence?

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Enkosi kakhulu Sihlalo.

 

 

English:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon

 

Chairperson, thank you, hon Nhanha for the question. Let me start by saying, I have been saying that I am not adopting a

 

 

defensive posture. The point is, it is true and this you will find in any environment. You will find it in all government departments and in the private sector. It is a national crisis. That you will find that people find it very easy to sexually abuse and exploit vulnerable women and girls.

 

 

What we see in the South African Defence Force is a reflection of what is happening in our society. It is a reflection of our patriarchal nature of our society, the attitude and socialisation of men. What is important therefore is, it is happening now, what are we doing about it? I think I would hang my head in shame, hon members if you were raising this without us having done nothing about it.

 

 

When one realised that this is rife in the South African Defence Force, one conducted an investigation by establishing a team to go out to all units and mission areas to investigate what is happening and what steps had been taken to deal with those issues. I think we have done without – it is not something to be proud of but I think we have done it very well, in that, by conducting that inquiry we have actually exposed and uncovered rot and dead which had been swept under the carpet. We have empowered young girls to come forward and

 

 

talk about their experiences of sexual expectation in the South African National Defence Force.

 

 

We have provided an avenue for them to have a conversation even with their male counterparts on these matters. So, what are we then doing? We conducted this investigation, hon members, and investigations have made some findings. They have also given us some recommendations about what we have to do. I know that when we talk about what is best to do, it is more about what is best to do amongst others to empower the woman to come forward and speak freely on the matter without fear or intimidation or further abuse by the perpetrator. That for me is the most important thing. Therefore, the steps which we take is that of all other departments of the empowerment of our women to speak out. Speak out, so that we know and then we can do something about it.

 

 

One of the critical recommendations which came out of that report is that we need to establish a sexual misconduct centre. We are now in the process of establishing that sexual misconduct centre and it will be within the department. This will be a centre which will deal with matters of sexual exploitation and abuse independently of the command and control by the defence force.

 

 

Now hon member, you are saying you want that by not dealing with these issues in a decisive manner, it will discourage women from joining the defence force. You are correct but actually women are joining defence force. Women every day are now feeling more confident to come forward. Even among male commanders because it is not like all of them are abusing women. We have male commanders who are deeply involved in taking action against those who are committing such acts.

 

 

Just to say hon Chairperson, within the Military Police, we are establishing an entity to investigate further issues of allegations of sexual abuse of women. In cases where these have been carried out in mission areas, outside of the borders of the Republic of South Africa, we then send national investigative officers to go and conduct the investigation, come back, present and have a military tribunal on the spot the military mission area. So that if for instance the victim is the civilian in that country, such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, a civilian who is a victim but also who witnesses in that area are given an opportunity to come and testify in the trial of that soldier. So we are trying our best. Sexual misconduct centres will be up and running very soon. Cases which through this mistrial task team which we have established which was investigating these issues are now

 

 

in the courts of law both in the military courts but we also have in circumstance where the area is a rape case is not even dealt with the military it goes to a civilian court.

 

 

Lastly, we are now working closely for instance, with the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, that unit within the NPA which deals with key issues of sexual abuse, it is now assisting us to prepare those victims or even witnesses to testify in the cases to be strong enough to face the perpetrator and stand in the face of the perpetrator about their personal experiences.

 

 

So, there are a few things we are doing and I believe we are doing right but of course we need to do more. I want to say as the last issue that the military command of the South African National Defence Force has committed itself to give me 100% in ensuring that these issues are dealt with decisively. Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr M A P De BRUYN: Hon Minister, through you Chair, I think you have mostly covered some questions to some extent. My question was what steps and procedures that are in place to address the issues of sexual harassment in the workplace, especially on deployment and what actions are utilised in

 

 

these cases? I think with the last one you have covered most of it. Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much hon member and I think I want to put it on record that once these many cases have been concluded we will avail ourselves and present ourselves to the committee so that the committee is familiar with the conclusion of such cases. Than you Chairperson.

 

 

Question 137:

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very

 

much, hon Chairperson and thank you, hon Ryder for the question. In responding to this question of critical skills in the defence sector, I will respond as follows: This question has been referred to the defence sector which is different from the South African National Defence Force, SANDF. However, we have attempted to respond to the question in what pertains to the South African National Defence Force.

 

 

Hon Ryder, I am sure you heard me earlier on, I think I jumped the gun when there was reference to how we attract young people and how we attract women into the Defence Force. I made reference to critical skills which we require in the South

 

 

African National Defence Force. There are various recipients in the SANDF that needs to be developed because of the general skills shortage basically in the country.

 

 

The skills shortage has had an effect, in the main, in the Air Force, the Navy and the South African Military Health Services, and to a certain extent, the Army. This would be in the hard sciences like engineering. Now, in order to mitigate the skills challenges, there are other initiatives like internal training programmes which we have initiated; as well as the utilisation of foreign planning opportunities that are offered between military to military relations as per agreement that South African National Defence Force – yes – with other institutions of higher learning in other countries.

 

 

We have training students and trainees in countries such as the United Kingdom, Zimbabwe, United States of America, Cuba, Russia, Pakistan and China. Those are some of the few countries where we have some of our trainees. The training involves various fields of skills and expertise.

 

 

The occupational category of these are professional technicians, plant and machine operators, your pilots, as I mentioned earlier on, doctors. I am proud to say that

 

 

yesterday we had students who were graduating who are specialist doctors. Some of them are epidemiologists who were graduating in another country and will be coming back. When they come back, they will be part of the South African National Defence Force because they were trained by the Defence Force.

 

 

We have a shortage of Navy divers, combat officers, of course, these are skills which are relevant to the Navy. One of the issues which we are discussing is; seeing that we are so dependent on the defence sector, in other words, on the defence industry sector, for maintenance, for repairs of some of our capabilities, why don’t we build capacity here within the Defence Force so that as we utilise this expertise from the defence sector, we also have our own young people from the Defence Force who are understudying them? In other words, we ensure that skills transfer is affected. So, that is one of the things which we are now trying to do.

 

 

The Secretary of Defence said yesterday in our meeting with National Treasury when we were talking, sharing some of the things which we would want to do, that there must come a time within the Defence Force you will have people, not just for servicing, but people who can actually repair a vessel in the

 

 

Defence Force. If your ship has challenges, you must have people within the Defence Force who will be can attend to that.

 

 

So, these are some of the things which we are doing and some of which we are engaging on. In the past three or four years, since we initiated Project Thusano. We have trained more than 2000 young people as mechanics specialising in very specific repairs of specific military transport. So, we are trying. We are now talking about navigation specialists; they too are being trained with specific reference to flight engineers. We are trying our best to equip ourselves with the skills so that we do not have to go out to the private sector for that.

 

 

With regards to military health services, I think I mentioned that there is training of doctors. We have doctors who are training internally. We have doctors who are graduating, who are specialists in other countries because we realise that there will come a time when we will need even more doctors in the military than the ones we have. We are training artisans in build environment, as your electrical and mechanical engineers.

 

 

I am sure you are aware that we have what is called in the Defence Force as the Defence Works Formation. That Defence Works Formation is not as capacitated as we would have wanted it to be. It has not as yet ventured into carrying out some of the projects which we would like them to carry, but there is an effort and an attempt. We are moving forward with the limited skills we have to a future where the Defence Force can be self-reliant and can sustain itself and its capabilities.

 

 

In the past, prior to 1994, there used to be that capacity within the South African National Defence Force but when democracy came in 1994, for some reason, there was a decision taken that due to budgetary constraints and so on, we needed to do away with some of the capacity that we had. If we look at what happened in Johannesburg two years ago, where some building was on fire, I think the Department of Health was on fire, on the second day, the Premier called on the Defence Force to come in. We did not have enough fire engines.

 

 

So, what we have is fire engines in areas where we have our small air force. We had to make do with whatever little and mobilise those resources. We had to make do and rely on the helicopters that we had to extinguish that fire.

 

 

So, I am just saying that some of the skills which we have done away with during our period of democracy, we now realise that we actually need those skills and it is the Defence Force which must work hard to make sure that we do have capacity to do some of the things which we are currently outsourcing. I thank you, Chair.

 

 

Mr D R RYDER: Thanks Minister, your answer leaves me a little surprised for almost indicating that we are only learning now of skills shortages and the fact that we need these critical skills. But in 2011, a report was tabled in Parliament by your department that indicated that the department was investing a substantial amount into developing skills in the technical service call. Yet, in the past year you paid Cubans R1 billion to do a job of a skilled personnel that you were supposed to have been developing over a decade.

 

 

You spoke of over 2000 mechanical personnel that have been developed over the years. Where are they now or has the project failed? If these South Africans that you developed over the past decade have left for the private sector, why did we go to Cuba and not ask South Africans in the private sector to assist us with these projects? Thank you, Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Well

 

Chairperson, yes, perhaps it had to do, in the main, with shortage of and the money we were spending in repair and maintenance of our vehicles. If I may use this, and I think to hon Ryder, the committee is free to request for the report to be presented to the committee on the extent to which we have said by having this project called Thusano which has really transfers skills to our young people. Which has also saved us because that work which was being done internally; and where at times the private sector would have cost us a leg and an arm, there was minimal amount of money spent for just buying parts and for repairs.

 

 

So, if I were to focus on that one, I would say; allow us to come and make this presentation so that you have a global view of the extent of the challenges we were having which made us resort to having this agreement of Project Thusano with the Cuban government. Now the next matter is, there too we can give you a briefing.

 

 

I am sure you are aware that some of the evergreen contracts which were there in the South African National Defence Force such as a contract we found and which continued to be there since the 80s, and which were there purely for repairs for our

 

 

aircrafts, our engines, our helicopters and so on. That evergreen contract had to be cancelled; and the reason why that contract had to be cancelled which had to be there, was because there were no skills transfer to young people within the South African National Defence Force.

 

 

So, there has been instances in deed, where the Defence Force has been reliant or dependent purely on the private sector to do certain things for the Defence Force. I don’t know, yes, you mentioned the report in 2011. I may not be necessarily familiar with it or I may not remember the contents of the report. But, what I certainly can attest to is that the establishment of the ... [Inaudible.] ... and the fact that we had to ensure that skills transfer had to be done has led to the situation where we believe that when the project comes to an end, we will be able to repair and maintain our vehicles.

 

 

The same applies to the Defence Works Formation. The Defence Works Formation was established because of this need and enthusiasm from the side of the Defence Force to be self- reliant. So that where you need your renovations of buildings and renovations of this and that, we do not rely on the Department of Public Works. Soldiers must be able to step

 

 

forward and do what could be done by other government departments to consultants, of course.

 

 

Now, you would know that one of the things we did, hon Ryder, was to then sign an agreement with the Department of Public Works to allow the Defence Works Formation; and we piloted this on 1 Mill hospital. Of course it created major problems for us because we had consultants which had been contracted by the Department of Public Works to be the ones who are responsible for the work at the 1 Mill hospital.

 

 

Nonetheless, the challenges have not discouraged us from continuing to say; we will empower, we will have more skills and artisans in the Defence Works Formation. We will continue to utilise the Defence Force. Yes, we may have to partner with other people who have requisite skills, but we should not be relying on people outside of the department.

 

 

I think in essence, that is what I am trying to say, hon Ryder and I am inviting you through hon Nchabeleng who is Chair of the committee to allow us to have further engagements on this matter of skills, of self-reliant of the Department of Defence of sometimes depending outside entities to do things for us because a Defence Force should be such that it is self-

 

 

reliant. Like it was prior 1994 and you are asking what happened to those skills, some people may have left the department, I don’t know, but I do know that you also have a sizeable number who exited the system in 1994 when the integration process was underway. Thank you.

 

 

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, we have requested the Table to

 

withdraw hon Apleni’s question. Thank you.

 

 

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we have come to the end of the questions raised to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. We thank the hon Minister for availing herself to come to the NCOP to answer questions. Thank you very much, hon Minister. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We now proceed with our programme and I am now handing over to hon Ngwenya who will take over.

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you Chairperson. I’ll now call on hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services to respond to Question 128 asked by the hon member

N.E Nkosi. Remember Minster, you’ve got five minutes to respond and members you’ve got two minutes for your follow up question. Hon Minister you may come in.

 

 

Question 128:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much Chairperson. The Department of Correctional Services is implementing correctional and rehabilitation programmes in line with section 2 of the Correctional Services Act 111 of 1998.

 

 

These programmes are aimed at promoting social responsibility and human development of all sentenced offenders while they are incrassated to serve their sentence as prescribed by the courts.

 

 

Upon admission into a correctional facility, a correctional sentence plan is designed for each offender. Correctional and rehabilitation programmes aimed at targeting offending behaviour offered to the offender are tailor made to address identified assessment based needs as per the sentence plan.

 

 

In case management committee monitors the implementation of the plan throughout the incrassation period, the Department of Correctional Services uses a multi-disciplinary approach in implementing of correctional and rehabilitation programmes covering social work programmes, psychological services, spiritual care services, education skills and vocational

 

 

training as well as sports, art, crafts and recreational activities.

 

 

In addition to the case management and supervision committees, monitoring the departments correctional and rehabilitation programmes at the centre and management area level, these are some of the essential mechanisms applied in the systems to assess the efficiency.

 

 

Reports by unit managers, social work psychologists, spiritual services and others and all offenders on offending behaviour, a disciplinary record of the offender, conditions set for and considering by parole boards in processing parole applicables indeed proves that correctional rehabilitation and development programmes were attended to. Compliance with the parole or probation conditions are placed into community corrections.

 

 

The outcomes of implementing correctional and rehabilitation programmes considered through the existence of correctional sentence plans, percentage of attendances, compliance with parole and probation conditions and reoffending points to relatively effective given the examples of recorded reoffending statistics for offenders released through the special parole dispensation.

 

 

Also, this can be demonstrated as follows, in line with the annual performance plans and reports of this year, a total of

64 428 out of 84 159 offenders serving sentences of longer than 24 months with correctional sentence plans completed correctional programmes for 2020/21 financial year.

 

 

This translates to a total of 76,56% of sentenced offenders. These are due to Covid-19 protocols which requires small groups can only be able to attend at a certain time and we therefore experience some challenges.

 

 

Comparable during the 2019/20 financial year, about 90%,

 

94 694 sentenced offenders participated in correctional programmes. Percentages of offenders participating in long and short operational skills programmes were achieved by 95 and 99,8% respectively. The achievement was attributed to financial support from the national skills fund and Saseta. In addition, in the previous year the achievement was 99,77% respectively.

 

 

The percentage of parolees and probations without violations were both achieved at 99% against the target of 97% respectively. As per 28 May 2021, about 126 offenders released on special parole dispensation were readmitted. This

 

 

represents 0,89% of the total number of 14 005 released on the special parole dispensation.

 

 

The department is in the process of designing and conducting and in depth study on the effectiveness of our correctional and rehabilitation programmes with emphasis on reoffending as an indicator on the impact.

 

 

Currently, the evaluation of the correctional programme aimed at targeting offending behaviour is conducted to assess the effectiveness nor the impact of specific programmes after completion of the sessions.

 

 

Generally, the feedback from the evaluation tool is used to improve the programmes and learn input from dynamics and input from offenders during the session.

 

 

Based on the input from the evaluation tool, periodical programmes are reviewed and updated. The department has also partnered with the Department of Arts and Culture to translate programmes in other languages commonly spoken by offenders to ease access and effectiveness. Two programmes namely, pre- release and female programmes have been translated into Setswana. Crime prevention and reoffending requires an

 

 

integrated and multi-disciplinary approach by criminal justice system. Social services cluster, civil society and economic clusters to deal with the multiple socio economic casual factors that fits repeat offending.

 

 

A key feature of successful crime prevention strategies towards releasing its rehabilitation and reintegration minded for the Department of Correctional Services is the effective social reintegration of ex-offenders into the community and the development of intervention design to reduce the level of [Inaudible.]

 

 

All parole conditions include victim participation to provide a platform for dialogue between the offenders and the victims supporting the healing and the restoration process. To ensure the successful reintegration of offenders into communities, the Department of Correctional Services continues to split victims at the centre of all its rehabilitation and reintegration programmes.

 

 

During the 2020/21 financial year, 11 833 victims and 2 791 offenders, parolees and probationers participated in the restorative justice programmes.

 

 

Furthermore, continued stigmatisation, unemployment, marginalisation and social isolation of parolees and probationers often least to repeat offending and the continuation of the circle of crimes.

 

 

The criminal record status creates a challenge for offenders to secure formal and stable employment and for their smooth reintegration into the communities.

 

 

The White Paper on corrections of 2005 provides a clear framework for the Department of Correctional Services to intervene in ways that can reform offenders into social responsible and law abiding citizens who make a positive contribution to society.

 

 

Correction is indeed a societal responsibility which requires communities to embrace parolees and probationers upon their release by giving support for their successful rehabilitation.

 

 

The department will continue to pursue partnership with relevant stakeholders to enhance the employability of the parolees. As part of the social reintegration process, the Department of Correctional Services has partnered with the state agencies and departments, non-profit organisations,

 

 

academic institutions, non-governmental organisations, traditional leaderships and other relevant external stakeholders to broaden the scope and the spread of intervention to correct offending behaviour.

 

 

These partnerships have led to some parolees being employed permanently while others were provided with start-up tools to enable them to open their own businesses and thereby contributing to employment creation.

 

 

Making use of offender labour in partnership with communities and other stakeholders the Department of Correctional Services has recently participated in the building of two community houses for vulnerable members of the community as part of rehabilitation and restorative justice.

 

 

We have also partnered with schools to build sports facilities where school going kids can participate in sports including the community’s use of such facilities. Thank you very much.

 

 

Ms N E NKOSI: Thank you very much hon House Chair. Greetings to the Minister. Hon Minister, thank you for your elaborate response. You have presented the utilisation of offender labour for community empowerment project as one of the

 

 

mechanisms to foster reintegration of offenders into society. Hon Minister what impact does this project have on reintegration of offenders and are they also extended to victims of crimes as part of declarative justice? Thank you Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much Chairperson. The impact of the programmes in society is huge because when the offenders participate in community projects, it creates a platform for their interaction in society and for society to also see the offenders at work, repaying society for the crimes and offences they have committed against society.

 

 

That does not only send a positive message to the victims but to the community as a whole who are also a victim of any crime that has been committed against any direct victim.

 

 

We have recently opened a house for the Zungu family in KwaZulu-Natal which is a family of ten females that did not have proper shelter. That house has also been furnished with furniture that has been produced by the offenders themselves. The family is now safe, living in a dignified environment.

 

 

We have also done the same for a 67 year old pensioner in the Dadamba village in the Eastern Cape who was also vulnerable. The Zungu family were victims of crime in KZN where the mother was brutally murdered by factions within the community.

 

 

The service that the offenders have provided has warmed the hearts of the females and children who were living in an undignified and unreputable environment.

 

 

Offenders have also built a sports facility in a scheme primary school in Alexandra and in some parts of Mpumalanga. With this we are sending a clear message of helping and partnering with primary and secondary schools for them to reignite sports which will enable us to prevent crime from happening but communities will also be engaged in sports and recreational activities.

 

 

This brings social cohesion as well as positive message of dialogue between the Department of Correctional Services and the community to deal with the crime that might have been committed but also to prevent future crimes from occurring. Thank you Chairperson.

 

 

Ms C VISSER: Thank you House Chair and thank you for the opportunity. Hon Minister, you spoke a lot about rehabilitation and things that are being done in your recreational facilities, but in many cases, there are no rehabilitation programmes. They get a leaflet and a talk before being released. How is a former inmate expected to return to society if they were not part of any rehabilitation programme as is the case in many facilities? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

Chairperson. It is not correct that there are no rehabilitation programmes. There are a lot of rehabilitation programmes that include anger management, change lives and various programmes that are aimed at a person through the offender plan.

 

 

There is also rehabilitation programmes that are aimed to train the offender as I ‘ve said that under personal development programmes there are programmes such as formal education, adult education and training, grades further education grade 10 to 12, post school education and training through access to TVET programmes an enrolment at higher education and training institutions. These are accredited and non-accredited programmes that give them skills amongst other

 

 

agriculture, agronomy, animal production, metal, steel and wood work, sports and recreation, arts and culture opportunities are also offered for the development of offenders.

 

 

The department is also assisting offenders to obtain the required skills and education to be able to seek employment opportunities like any other citizen of the country upon release.

 

 

The department provides and gives access of range of programmes including [Inaudible.] programmes as practicable as possible to meet the education and training needs of the sentenced offenders. These skills also get the through self- sustainability model and programme where they are now going to optimise production in the farms which were not operating at optimum capacity.

 

 

We will now be optimising our farms, production workshops, factories, including producing their own uniforms, as well as bakery and milk. There’s a lot of optimisation of the capability that we are having which will further enhance the skills of the offenders which we believe upon release, they will be able to use these skills for either self-employment or

 

 

to be employed. It will also help the Department of Correctional Services to be self-sustainable and ease the burden on the fiscas. Than you Chairperson.

 

 

Mr S ZANDAMELA: Thanks House Chair. Minister, in your response just now you spoke about programmes that are happening in prison, but question hon Minster is that we’ve got an unemployment problem in the country and it has become worse since Covid-19 came into our lives.

 

 

Minister, what are the jobs that are being created by your department to accommodate the rehabilitated inmates before they are integrated into communities? Thank you House Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

Chairperson. As I’ve mentioned earlier, you will have seen that the skills that the inmates are being given an opportunity to be trained in, it’s skills which they can be self-employed such as plumbing, brick laying, agriculture, steel production and wood work.

 

 

Upon their release, they can be able to do a lot of things including sewing their own clothes or for the community. These are skills which the inmates are learning including baking.

 

 

Hon members can have access to very nice bakery that inmates do and some of the milk products. These are things that we believe enable them that one day they can either be self- employed or employed.

 

 

The correctional section of the department also helps them to lift them as you have heard that some of them have been helped with start-ups through partnerships with the private sector, and community organisations. They are being helped with some form of start-ups as they are being released. Those that are able to link to employment, these skills also come in very handy for them to participate in economic activities.

 

 

It has proven that the ones who are released with a particular skill are able to make a meaningful impact economically in society but also a positive contribution to which ever community we send them to. They become very handy and are able to generate their own sources of income.

 

 

Question 134:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

Chairperson, I was just struggling to unmute. The Parole Boards are established in terms of section 74 of the Correctional Services Act of 1998. The Parole Boards have

 

 

decision-making powers in terms of offenders serving more than

 

24 months’ imprisonment and recommendation powers in respect of offenders sentenced to life imprisonment and persons declared dangerous criminals in terms of section 286(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1997. The Parole Board takes, amongst others, the following into account when considering parole placement. The completion of the legislative required minimum detention period, proof of monitorable and appropriate system, positive report of conduct and behaviour, including interventions and programs. Proof that rehabilitation has taken place, representations of victims, the risk posed to the community and victims and acceptance of the conditions for placement by the offender.

 

 

The Parole Boards receive profiled reports from case management committees of each offender who is due for consideration of placement on parole. The profile report inter alia provide the following information: the offence or offences, judgements on the merits and any remarks made by the court, description of the crime the SAPS 62, the previous record SAPS 69, the conduct, the rehabilitation programs attended, disciplinary record adaptation, training, aptitude, address information on core accused, correctional sentence plan, reports from professionals, physical and mental state of

 

 

the offender, the likelihood of relapse into crime, the risk posed to the community and the manner in which the risk can be reduced, recommendations on the possible placement of an offender under the correctional supervision, placement on day parole or on parole and the level of supervision as well as the condition for such placement should placement be approved.

 

 

The following parole conditions are set by the Parole Boards in terms of section 52 of the Correctional Services Act 1998 were placement on parole is approved. Some of them are placement under house detention, does community service in order to facilitate the restoration of the relationship between the sentenced offender and the community, seeks employment where possible, takes up and remains in employment, pays compensation to the victims, take part in treatment development and support programs, participates in mediation between victims and offender or in family groups conferencing, contributes financially towards the costs of the community corrections towards he/she has been subjected, is restricted to one or more magisterial district, lives at a fixed address, refrain from using alcohol or illegal drugs, refrains from committing a criminal offense, refrains from visiting a particular place, refrains from making contact with a particular person or persons, refrains from threating a

 

 

particular person or persons or by work or action, is subject to monitoring, in a case of child is subject to the additional conditions as contained in section 69 or any other condition as may be appropriate under the circumstances. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

 

 

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson or House Chairperson, my apologies. Hon Minister, Chris Prinsloo was jailed 2016 for 18 years selling 2000 guns to gangs in the Cape Flats. He served less than four years. Some of these guns were linked to the deaths of 89 children and more than 1000 murders in total. Overcrowding in our prisons is a problem and I suspect the decisions of the Parole Board are motivated by overcrowding in Correctional facilities in South Africa.

That’s the only reason I can understand why a person like this who has been sentenced for 18 years and only served 4 can be released on parole. Is there another explanation and if not, will the Minister seek to reform the conditions under which the Parole Board may grant parole and by when? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

hon House Chairperson. There are security considerations on this matter, and they will become apparent with time to society and also to Parliament. I am not really very privy to

 

 

state those security conditions because of their nature, but I state that at this stage Prinsloo’s situation is attended to by the Correctional Services and also the relevant authorities that are dealing with this matter and other ongoing matters. I hope the hon member will understand the security challenge that we have in giving the full details at this stage, but it will become very apparent in the future. On the second question, with regard to the parole system indeed there is an ongoing process that is aimed into strengthening, review and also to ensure that the parole system is responsive also to the individual circumstances of each and every offender from the date they come into our system, including the collection of data as when they are taken through the parole dispensation system. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

 

 

Ms M BARTLETT: Thank you very much, hon Chair and the Minister. Thank you, Minister with your comprehensive response, it’s clear that there is a lot of work that is obtained before and after offenders are released on parole. Hon Minister, there has been instances where parolees were involved in violent crimes. Has the department worked out interventions to curb recurrences moving forward, if you can answer on that? Thank you very much, hon Minister.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much, Chairperson, indeed, there is a lot of work that is done with regard to rehabilitation programs, with regard to corrections to respond to the challenges that the system is responding to in terms offenders in our system and to ensure that by the time they are released they are good ambassadors of the Correctional Services system. As the hon member has said indeed there are offenders who commit violent crimes sometimes very heinous crime and it has been shown within our stature that most of the offenders sometimes, particularly those who have been in our facilities for less than two years they sometimes commit more violent crime or more serious crime than the one they were initially arrested for, which just shows that we may need between the Correctional Services, the NPA and the Judiciary as a whole, need to look with serious consideration alternative sentencing particularly where offenders are going to be sentenced less than two years because the rehabilitation programs have proven that for those who have been sentenced for a very less period of time by the time they are released the impact has not yet been felt by the offender in terms of programmes, in terms of the rehabilitation as it supposed to happen. So a higher sentence of more than two years should be the one where incarceration is considered but if its less than two years there is a need

 

 

for a conversation amongst ourselves, Judiciary and the NPA to consider alternative forms of sentencing. Indeed, we are looking into some of the causes of these violent crimes that are sometimes committed by the offenders that is to look comprehensively with the review of the parole system, including some of our rehabilitation programs so that they are able to speak to the individual offender, the data and the analysis of that offender as when they are taken through the parole process. Thank you, hon house Chairperson.

 

 

Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister through you, Chair, considering the thousands of prisoners that receive parole yearly, especially when adding the extra thousand prisoners who receive since the beginning of COVID-19 to ensure social distancing in prisons. My question would be: Does the department have the necessary man power to track and to ensure that parolees adhere to the conditions of their parole. Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

hon House Chairperson, indeed we do have manpower, that is done through our programme or the branch of community corrections that is aimed to track and ensure that there is compliance with the parole dispensation of any offender. But

 

 

obviously there are challenges in the system which are also created by current additional release that he has spoken about, including the COVID-19 situation throughout the country which also impaired the physical interactions and sometimes leads to us using more of technology in terms of interaction. So, the system indeed is currently a bit constraint, but the Correctional Services as a branch is doing its best with the limited resources they have at their disposal to attend to the monitoring and to ensure the compliance. Thank you, Chairperson.

 

 

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, House Chair. Does the Parole Board take into consideration the integration program that prepares the offenders for the outside world, especially offenders who come from rural places like Xhariep Region in the Free state without job opportunities? Thank you, House Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

hon House Chairperson. Indeed, the Parole Board, do take into consideration the rehabilitation programs that the offender has gone through. There have been instances where it is clear that the offender has not gone through programs of rehabilitation that includes skills development where that

 

 

offender will be referred back for process in particular where the offender will have to get the skills which may help the offender when he/she is released into the society skills like baking, agriculture like sewing and like brick laying and so forth. So do look into that whether the offender has a skill which if released he/she will be able to utilise in the outside world in terms of him being self-employed for example being a brick layer or he/she being a welder or a plumber, does he/she have such a skill and sometimes there are those who might be having some educational qualifications like a degree or a diploma which also place them in a good stead. So those are considered before they are placed on parole.

 

 

Question 129:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House

 

Chairperson, with regard to the question of hon Dangor, corruption undermines human development. It diverts public resources away from the provision of essential services. It increases inequality and hinders national and local economic development by distorting markets for goods and services. It corrodes rule of law and destroys public trust in governments and leaders. This is a quotation from the United Nations Development Programme on AntiCorruption and Sustainable Development Goals.

 

 

These often repeated sentiments drive home the impact of corruption. No doubt, corruption is the biggest threat to our developmental trajectory.

 

 

The hon President announced in his state of the nation address that we have begun the implementation of the National Anticorruption Strategy which lays the basis for a comprehensive and integrated society-wide response to corruption. The society-wide approach to fighting corruption is based on citizen participation, ethical leadership, professional and skilled employees, transparent and accountable governance systems, a culture of reporting and whistleblowing, protection of sectors most vulnerable to corruption and strengthening anticorruption agencies.

 

 

The strategy aims to create a South Africa that has an ethical, transparent and accountable state and business and civil society sectors in which those in positions of power and authority act with integrity. You will realise, hon Chairperson, that this means that we want to deal with corruption more at a preventative level. Before it becomes an act of corruption it must be prevented through having those that are having the capability, skills in a transparent process.

 

 

The strategy recognises that it will take an all of society effort and engagement to fight the scourge of corruption. The strategy also aims to work towards a zero tolerance for corruption in society. At the same time, we must strengthen our anticorruption agencies with the necessary resources to fight corruption in the near to short-term. In the medium to long-term our legislative framework must be reviewed to toughen and modernise our laws that enable the fight against corruption.

 

 

The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has therefore committed to developing and producing a research paper on this aspect in this financial year. The report of the State Capture commission will also be instructive in how we insulate our institutions and processes from the havoc that was unleashed through state capture challenges. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Hon House Chair, I will be dealing with hon Dangor’s question given that he had an emergency this morning. Thank you very much, hon House Chair. Thank you, hon Minister for this honest and clear reply. Hon Minister, the country has discovered through the State Capture commission the inefficiencies which are designed by the Constitution to

 

 

combat corruption and other crimes that had previously been weakened by elements within and outside our government. Hon Minister, is the department satisfied with the work that is currently unfolding in reviving these institutions and the arrests that are starting to take shape across all corners of South Africa? Thank you very much, hon House chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: We have

 

seen significant progress in the investigation and prosecution of corruption. There are also increased efforts to improve co- operations amongst law enforcement agencies. We saw this bear fruits through the fusion centre which sees all law enforcement agencies work together from the point of detection, to investigation to prosecution. We have also established special commercial crime courts in all provinces and added capacity in areas where this was required. This was done in respect of the massive corruption scene during the COVID-19 procurement. We are satisfied that we are in the right track in so far as turning around the efforts of these institutions. But we remain vigilant to ensure that we sustain these efforts going forward. Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.

 

 

Xitsonga:

 

 

Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa Mutshamaxitulu.

 

 

English:

 

Minister, if government has committed itself to have zero tolerance in fighting corruption in all sectors of society, which mechanisms did your department put in place to fight corruption as we are experiencing a high rate of corruption in the country than in the public and private sector? Worse, this corruption is done by public servants. Thank you, Chair.

 

 

Xitsonga:

 

HOLOBYE WA SWA VULULAMI NA VUKORHOKERI BYA MAKHOTSO: Ndza

 

khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. Ku na ntirho wo tala lowu hi nga wu endla ku katsa na ku pfumelelana hi pfhumba ra Anticorruption Strategy leri ndzi nga vulavula hi rona ekusunguleni. Rona ri ta endla leswaku hi kota ku sivela vukungudzwani hi ku thola vanhu lava nga na vuswikoti, lava nga ta tiyisisa leswaku swilo swi va erivaleni nakambe na ku va vanhu lava nga ni xindzhuti. Leswi swi ta sivela leswaku hi nga sunguli hi yimela vukungudzwani byi rhanga byi endleka, kambe hi kota ku byi ...

 

 

English:

 

 

... prevent from the onset through early warnings systems such as those which will come from the Auditor-General’s, AG, reports to attend to them as quickly as possible and to ensure that there is accountability in that regard to prevent it from happening. It does happen as we have said - strengthening the institutions that are aimed at responding to the scourge of corruption including the one that we are currently having, the Independent Investigating Directorate and the Hawks. They are also co-operating very well with the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, including the strengthening and the additional special commercial crimes courts that we have now established in the province of Limpipo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and Eastern Cape. Thank you, House Chairperson.

 

 

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson. Hon Minister, first it was the anticorruption task team which was taunted as very effective which was to ensure that investigation into and the prosecution of corruption, specifically grand scale corruption, was to be handled in an integrated and effective way. This did not work. Less than a year ago you announced that a fusion centre is to be established to deal with corruption. Minister, we see all sorts of role-players dealing with the same issues, but we see too little real action. Corruption around the personal

 

 

protection equipment, PPEs, procurement is just one example. Minister, in order to determine the success, here and now, can you tell us exactly how many people have been successfully prosecuted for PPEs corruption? I thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much, hon House Chairperson. With regard to this question there have been prosecutions that are happening on the PPE corruption. There have also been monies that have been returned or are being in the process of being recovered through the special tribunal. The special tribunal has enabled us to fast-track the handling of such matters and the monies are being recovered. That shows the effectiveness of the systems that have been put in place.

 

 

I would request that we write to the House to give the exact statistics as per the question that has been asked of, how many people. I don’t have the information with me now, but we will write and the give the number of people that have been prosecuted with regard to the first question. Thank you.

 

 

Question 140:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chairperson, with reference to the replies in 2020 on Question

 

 

205 in June 2021, by the Minister of Police of how many South African Police Service, SAPS, members refuse to pay, my response is as follows: The National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is at this stage unable to appropriately respond to the question posed. The following detail information is required to enable the NPA to obtain the status of the cases in question. The name of the accused, the police case number or written notice number and the date of court appearance.

 

 

This information has been requested from the SAPS and a response will follow at a later stage. After the information has been received from the relevant deputy public prosecutor’s jurisdictions. This will unfortunately fall outside of the current response period. We will therefore request to submit a written reply because the question does contain stats and information that needs to be collated between SAPS and various deputy directors of public prosecutions across the country. So it will be an elaborate response in writing.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you

 

hon Minister. Hon du Toit is there anything you that want to make a follow up on in light of the fact that the Minister is committing to sending us a full written response?

 

 

Mr S F Du TOIT: Deputy Chair, thank you. I accept the Minister’s gesture and I am looking forward to the response. I do however have a follow up question that speaks to the admission of guilt fines. I will stick within my allowed two minutes.

 

 

Through you, Chair, Minister Bheki Cele reported in a media statement on 13 January 2021, that more than 20 000 people were arrested and were all fine for contravening the Disaster Management Act, since the start of the adjusted level 3 lockdown 20 December 2020. Seven thousand four hundred and fifty-five arrests for people that didn’t wear masks in public, only during that period December 2020 to January 2021.

 

 

Since March 2020, a total of 342 000 people were arrested for contravening the Disaster Management Act. Cape Talk reported that the national South African Police Service spokesperson Brigadier Vish Naidoo said that some law enforcement officers may want to avoid overcrowding in police holding cells amid the COVID-19 second wave. As an alternative, people who flout the regulations may be forced to pay an admission of guilt fine, now is written notice - Form J534 or they may be charged and instructed to appear in court. Some lawyers have warned

 

 

that these admission of guilt fines may result in permanent criminal records.

 

 

Were people that were presented with the admission of guilt fines advised that they would have criminal records thereafter? Secondly, what remedies are there for individuals that were forced to pay admission of guilt fines and now have criminal records as well as individuals who are waiting to appear before courts as a result of the alleged Disaster Management Regulations?

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chairperson, indeed, the public was advised in a press conference that if you are arrested for any violation of the Disaster Management Regulations you are going to have a criminal record. It was stated in press conferences and it has been repeated. Everywhere we had been asked whether this will result in a criminal record or not. Indeed, it does and we have responded so in many occasions.

 

 

There is a process that can be followed by a person who has a criminal record in terms of the expungement of their criminal records. But obviously, for reasons I may not be able to disclose, what are other measures we are looking into to help

 

 

on the process of a criminal record. But I hope hon du Toit will understand why I could not disclose more on those issues. There is indeed work in progress that I think will also help that process which I cannot disclose at this stage until the work has been concluded through the various Cabinet committees and is brought to Parliament. Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S Lucas): Hon Smit, in

 

the light of what the Minister has committed, is there any follow up question.

 

 

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, given the fact that aggravating factors present for SAPS members are much more pressing since they are expected to enforce the regulations. How did the sentences of SAPS members compare with those handed to ordinary citizens?

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy

 

Chairperson, I think this question is related to the first question. We will only be able to determine that when we have all the data and information which we will provide to the House including hon Smit. The only comment I can make is a general one that, no one is above the law. Everyone must be

 

 

treated equally before the law and if there is any violation, the law must take its course. Thank you.

 

 

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, thank you very much for your elaborate response, hon Minister. And we shall be keenly awaiting your response in this regard. Can the hon Minister explain what is the employment status of the police officer in terms of the law in respect of which these admission of guilty fines has been issued? I will await your response.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chairperson, I think I will not be better placed to respond to that question because it belongs to the Minister of Police. He can respond guided by the South African Police Service Act 68 of 1995 and regulations guiding the employment of the members of SAPS. Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Accepted,

 

hon Minister. Hon Lehihi, please speak up.

 

 

Ms S B LEHIHI: Inaudible.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You are not audible hon Lehihi, please speak to the mic. Minister can you hear her because I can’t? Please speak to the mic.

 

 

Ms S B LEHIHI: Inaudible

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I am sorry

 

my dear we can really not hear you. You are unmuted but we cannot hear you. Is there anyone that can hear the hon member?

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Chair, can I take over the question?

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon

 

Mokause, if you have the question, you may proceed. Thank you.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Minister, having compiled the date ... [no sound] ... on a number of cases police are charged with and those refusing to comply and pay the fines, has there been any contingency plans beyond committed offences? Are there any additional trainings that are planned for police officers to avoid such in future?

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy

 

Chairperson, as I have said, we will respond in writing when

 

 

we receive the data in terms of the compliance or defiance to the fines etc. But with regards to the other aspect of the question in relation to training, their conditions of service and how they perform it going forward, I think it belongs to the Minister of Police. Thank you.

 

 

Question 130:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon

 

Chairperson, with regards to the basic education, the regulations relating to assistance to victims in respect of basic education, commenced on 7 November 2014, providing for assistance to qualifying declared Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC, victims, their relatives and dependents. The assistance covers amongst others, a maximum amount in respect of school fees and maximum amount for boarding, uniform and transport allowance.

 

 

Certain conditions must be met in order to qualify for assistance, for example, the means and some of the allowances. We are currently reviewing the regulations, and the following challenges and areas of improvement were identified: The scope of assistance provided for in the regulations, is inadequate; having regard to the low earning of many of the victims, their relatives or their dependants; the cost of basic education,

 

 

public schools and special schools; the need to facilitate access to basic education and to reduce the number of learners dropping out of school.

 

 

Some of the regulations caused operational challenges which might have contributed towards the delays, considering applications and payments to be made to the beneficiaries. These challenges were addressed by way of extending time periods for considering applications for assistance and by deleting the distance kilometre requirements, in respect of the payment of transport allowance. Due consideration is being given to the policy envisaged by the Department of Basic Education, in respect of free basic education and aligning it to the new visions of the regulations.

 

 

The number of applications received for the year 2021 academic year is 2,109, the present fund received and paid claims for

510 scholars to the value of R7, 885 383 million. For Higher Education and Training, the regulation relating to assistance of victims in respect of Higher Education and Training, came into operation of 7 November 2014, providing for assistance to qualifying declared TRC victims, their relatives and their dependents, in respect of adult education and training,

 

 

further education and training, higher education and skills development.

 

 

The regulation as amended covers amongst others, payment of the actual fees charged by the institution, payment of maximum amount for boarding, purchased textbooks and for transport, subject to certain conditions, payment of maximum amount for meals in the course of accommodation, does not include the cost of meals, payment of a once-off kept amount to purchase devises such as laptops, payment of a once-off kept amount to purchase devises that are compulsory for the programmes for which the beneficiary is registered, subject to certain conditions.

 

 

Also, payment of a kept amount to certain debt kept prior to the 2015 academic year, which is owed by the beneficiary to an institution, subject to certain conditions. payment of a once- off kept amount to the beneficiary with a disability to purchase an assistive devise subject to certain conditions, payment of a kept amount for human support to be rendered to a beneficiary with a disability and body, and meal allowance for such person, subject to certain conditions, and payment of amount to settle a debt incurred during the 2015 academic

 

 

year, until 14 December 2018, which is owed by the beneficiary to an institution, subject to certain conditions.

 

 

During the review process, the following challenges and areas of improvement were identified in respect of the regulation: The scope of assistance provided for in the regulations, that is inadequate; having regard to the low earning of many of the victims, their relatives or their dependants; the high cost of tertiary education, and the need to recognise prior learning. The regulations are not in line with legislative changes inflated since the commencement of the regulations, such as the changes relating to adult education and training.

 

 

The regulations do not provide for an adequate framework to hold beneficiaries accountable for loses suffered as a result of fruitless expenditure. Some of the regulations caused operational challenges which may have contributed towards the delays in considering applications for assistance, and payments to be made to the beneficiaries. The regulations are being reviewed to address the challenges for the 2021 academic year. About 507 applications have been received, of which 489 applications have been approved.

 

 

In the 2021 academic year, 17 claims were paid, and upfront payments for 33 universities and technical, vocational and training colleges to the value of R4, 1700, 204 million were made. The amount paid by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, 2021 academic year to date, is R5, 391, 472. The NSFAS, which is an implementing agency for higher education benefits has been paid an advance amount of R13, 750

000 million for the 2021 academic year. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I was just

 

about to stop you. [Laughter.] I was just really about to stop you, but thank you very much, hon Minister, your response was well-elaborated. The follow-up question is by hon Dodovu. Hon Dodovu, are you there? You may continue. You are also not audible. Can you please speak to the mic? Hon Dodovu, your bend seems to be low and your audio is off. Can you put it on?

 

 

Yes, we can see you, but we cannot hear you. You are visible, but you are not audible. Are you connected to the audio now? Unmute, please. Unmute, we can still not hear you. Whilst you are solving that, let us continue to the next follow-up question by hon Lehihi. Hon Lehihi, can you unmute?

 

 

Ms S B LEHIHI: Can you hear me, Chair?

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You are so

 

audible now. You may continue, thank you.

 

 

Ms S B LEHIHI: Okay. Minister, your department is still reluctant in prosecuting apartheid apologies and criminals. Will the victims ever be assisted with basic, higher education services and skills? Has there been any programme to reach out to them? If not, why not? Is there any budget set aside to assist the victims? Thank you, Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you

 

very much, Chairperson. There is no such a thing that the department is protecting apartheid apologies and the criminals. There is a proven track record of apartheid apologies and criminals that have been convicted in the justice system, Eugene de Kock, Adriaan Vlok, and many more that have been sentenced by this democratic government. So, that insinuation is unfounded and baseless. It is a segment of imagination of the hon member.

 

 

This programme that we talking about here, is indeed helping the victims of apartheid through the outcome that came through

 

 

the TRC processes, and the victims are benefiting, hon Deputy House Chairperson, some of them have graduated to contribute significantly to the economy and the social upliftment of our country. The programme does have challenges which are largely administrative, and which we are from time to time engaging with the Financial Aid Scheme to resolve the challenges, including the engagement with the Presidential Fund to resolve them. We also believe that the challenges are not insurmountable.

 

 

We will be able to resolve them and continue to render services to the victims of these crimes. It is the best investment that the democratic government can make to the victims. Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you

 

very much, hon Minister. We will once again try hon Dodovu. If he is still not making it ... [Interjections.]

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, hon

 

Shaikh.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, if hon Dodovu is unable to connect, I can be able to deal with this issue.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Please do

 

continue.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Okay. Thank you very much hon Deputy Chair, and thank you, hon Minister for your response. Indeed, we have put the Reconciliation Commission and it was presented with ... [Inaudible.] ... of painful stories of many victims of apartheid atrocities. But we should also commend the work of government in ensuring that support is given to the dependants of these people, and we take the view that this must be speedily expedited.

 

 

Hon Minister, is there collaborated efforts for the Departments of Basic Education and Higher Education, as well

as the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, to accelerate the process of the system to these students to ensure that they are not adversely affected? Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

hon Deputy Chairperson, and thank you, hon member, for those

 

 

warm words. This government is at work, and it is encouraging to see that the hon members also appreciate the efforts that the government is putting in place to service the people of this country. Actually, I have partially answered the question with regards to the collaborated efforts with regards to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, the Department of Justice and the Presidential Fund.

 

 

This is done to speed up and strengthen our work, and resolve some of the administrative challenges and glitches that the students encounters almost every year, so that they are able to be assisted in the stress-free kind of an environment.

There is also kind of anxiety whether they will be paid or whether they will be assisted or not. So, there is, indeed, ongoing work and discussion in all these three stakeholders to ensure that we will resolve the teething challenges that the students from time to time encounter, so that we are able to pay efficiently and respond to the challenges that the students are sometimes encountered with.

 

 

But it has been proven that the system is working, and it is the system that is going to benefit this country through this investment that the democratic government is making towards

 

 

the victims of apartheid crime. Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon minister, community rehabilitation was also to be undertaken as part of government assistance to victims identified during the TRC hearings. Now, I have heard that you partially answered that question, Minister, but could you please elaborate on the status and the progress of this programme.

Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,

 

hon Deputy Chairperson. Indeed, the community rehabilitation is still part of this programme, on top of the victim one, that has to help the students. We are currently reviewing the process of community rehabilitation, and what type of programmes and projects that will help us to enhance the community rehabilitation in the various parts of our country, given that they have now transitioned into almost 25 years of our democracy. While kind of rehabilitation will be needed in various societies which might be unique and not be seen for each and every community.

 

 

So, there is that kind of discussion, and soon we will be able to inform the public that this is the kind or format the community rehabilitation we will enable us to strengthen some of them, and help with this community rehabilitation that is needed to be done in many communities across the country.

Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr S F Du TOIT: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. Hon Minister, you are correct when you say that these regulations came into operation on 7 November 2012. Now, Lefuna Mabadi, the senior manager at ... [Inaudible.] ... in June 2020, that identified beneficiaries are the ones that go to the TRC, and were identified as beneficiaries. Now, Minister, obviously, there must be a database of these beneficiaries. How many beneficiaries were identified initially, and what is the sum total of the extended beneficiaries? Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chair, I could not get the question clearly from the hon member. If he could just repeat the question.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Okay, hon

 

Du Toit, please unmute your mic.

 

 

Mr S F Du TOIT: Okay, Deputy Chair, I will repeat myself. I said that, the Minister was correct when he said that the regulations came into operation on 7 November 2012. Mr Lefuna Mabadi, the senior manager at the TRC said on an interview in the SABC news in June 2020 that, identified beneficiaries are the ones that did go to the TRC, and they were identified as beneficiaries. Minister, there then must be a database for these beneficiaries.

 

 

My question is, how many beneficiaries are there in total, and what is the sum total of the extended beneficiaries? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Oh, thank

 

you. The number of beneficiaries for the 2021 academic year is 2, 109. The President Fund received and paid for 510 scholars, to the value of R7, 885, 383 million, that is for basic education, and the number of beneficiaries for higher education for the 2021 academic year, is 507. About 507 applications have been received, of which 489 applications have been approved. In the 2021 academic year also, 17 claims were paid, and upfront payments for 33 universities and technical, vocational and training colleges to the value of R4, 1700, 204 million was paid.

 

 

The amount paid by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, 2021 academic year to date, is R5, 391, 472 million. The advance payments were have made to NSFAS that will help the students in higher education for this academic year, is R13, 750 000 million. If the hon member wants the number of beneficiaries since 2014, we will look into the data, write and provide that data. For now, we only for the last and the current academic year. Thank you.

 

 

Question 135:

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy

 

Chairperson, all offenders were subjected to rehabilitation programmes before they were placed out as this was the prerequisite for placement on parole for offenders who benefited from the special parole dispensation.

 

 

A number of offenders has since been re-arrested ... hon House Chairperson, I’m just checking the full ... and 136 have since been re-arrested and 31 is serious offences that they were arrested for, which includes murder, rape, robbery, some of them assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, assault GBH, and so forth. So, that is the number out of the 14 000.

Thank you.

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Mnr G MICHALAKIS: Adjunkvoorsitter, ...

 

 

English:

 

Hon Minister, I asked a question in written form last year about rehabilitation, specifically in facilities here in my constituency, and on the 11th of September last year you indicated, specifically the smaller correctional facilities, are as part of the rehabilitation efforts doing things like vegetable gardens and sporting tournaments, there’s education programme but you indicated there’s a shortage of educators.

 

 

With great respect, a soccer match and a vegetable garden is hardly going to do anything to turn a hardened criminal into a productive member of society. The whole purpose of correctional services in this country is rehabilitation, but you hardly budget for it. The way our jails are currently run, inmates go to learn, not to be productive members of society but to be better criminals.

 

 

Do you agree that it’s a mistake to release unrehabilitated

 

inmates? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chairperson, the programmes that we offer have been proven by professionals to be the best forms of rehabilitation, they’ve also been benchmarked against international best standards, in terms of programmes for rehabilitation, and it has been proven across the globe that what we are offering is in line with those standards to ensure that we do rehabilitate and integrate the members of our correctional centres, the inmates, into society.

 

 

You can never underplay the role of physical education in stimulating the mind, the brain, but also in a process of rehabilitation. So, the various forms, not only the skills training, the mental training that they receive and also the educational programme that they receive in classes is important, including the physical training that they do through the various sports activities that the inmates do in our centres.

 

 

It is very important to change the conduct, behaviour of the offender. Hence we encourage that it should happen and it must never be underestimated because it plays a very important role in the physic, the mental well-being of the inmates and all these offenders, as we have said, they undergo these

 

 

programmes and as the statistics prove, is that the majority of them did not reoffend, because of this work we are doing. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

Ms S B LEHIHI: Deputy Chairperson, did the offenders undergo a proper screening for parole? Was there even a rehabilitation programme in plan before they were given parole? Given that some of them have been rearrested, what services are being offered in prisons to ensure proper rehabilitation takes place? Ke a leboga. [Thank you.]

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy

 

Chairperson, indeed, the programmes that we run respond to the offenders. As I’ve said earlier, the inmates plan does give us an indication of the programmes that the inmates should be undergoing because of each individual having their own unique characters and circumstances. And all these programmes that we spoke about are aimed to ensure that there is rehabilitation.

 

 

We are profiling – as I’ve said – all the offenders before they go into the parole boards, all their information is screened, it goes through a vigorous verification process.

 

 

It is our responsibility to help them to be rehabilitated as far as possible within the facilities. It is also a societal issue when they are finally released to society or when there is a process of reintegration, to also help us with the reintegration process that will also reduce the level of recidivism, particularly when they are welcomed and allowed to do a lot of positive activities and contribution to society, including for the ex-offenders to find some kind of job or being given a space to be self-employed. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Minister, the number of parolees who reoffend may be low but it’s worrying that some end up committing crimes which are more heinous than the crimes they were initially arrested for; and I think you also spoke to the matter.

 

 

Hon Minister, what is the Department of Correctional Services doing to paten parole processes with the view to ensuring that only offenders who are properly rehabilitated are released on parole? Thank you.

 

 

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy

 

Chairperson, yes, indeed, the number might be too low but one

 

 

is too many, particularly when it comes to reoffending. And we are doing all we can through the rehabilitation programmes, through all the efforts that we’re putting in terms of our engagements with community and society to ensure that the offenders are fully rehabilitated and that they are ready for reintegration and to contribute positively to society.

 

 

When they finally get rehabilitated through them having the skills that we spoke about so that they are able to make positive contribution but also through the professional help that they receive like psychologist, social work programmes that are also aimed to speak to their inner beings. And also to ensure that as we have said that there are victims of offender dialogues that are also aimed for restorative justice for reconciliation and for restorative of peace in the society to enable this reintegration process to be smooth and to function in a manner that is acceptable both to the victims and also to the offenders, and enable a dialogue that will bridge the gap between the two and the society as a whole.

 

 

So, these are things that we believe we all have to work together, ourselves as correctional services and the society as a whole to enable successful programme that will end up

 

 

eliminating or reducing significantly the number of recidivism or reoffending by the offenders. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.

 

 

Question 122:

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you Deputy Chair, good afternoon to members of the NCOP. Our response to this question, which of course it’s a worrisome for the leadership of the South African Police Services and in the country in general. The number of South African Police members killed on and off duty in the 2019-20 and 2020-21 financial year is reflected in the table below, which characterises the murder of police officers, both on duty and off duty and it makes a comparison of 2019-20 and 2020-21 categories.

 

 

The statistics for the current financial year, have not been verified and released yet. However, from 1 April 2021 to 31 May 2021, a total of 17 police members have been killed. In the previous financial year of the same period, we had a number of six police officers killed.

 

 

In terms of what is our response that is question 1 (a & b) and 2 (a & b) which are interrelated. We have had a Police Safety Strategy which was passed in 2015 and revised and amended currently which is guiding us on our response to these

 

 

issues. The amended Police Safety Strategy and Implementation Plan, was approved by the National Police Commissioner on 23 March 2021 and it aims to intensify and accelerate the efforts to address attacks, unnatural death and death as a results of national pandemic, such as COVID-19 of South African Police Services, SAPS employees.

 

 

Awareness programmes among SAPS members on the following issues have been embarked upon, around issues of suicide, trauma, depression, substance abuse, relationships and financial problems because these are some of the factors that contribute towards some of the killings of our police officers.

 

 

Members are urged to proactively take responsibility for their personal health, and wellness. Commanders are urged to proactively pay attention to the wellbeing of their members.

 

 

A communication and marketing strategy was developed to create awareness internally and externally. Because we all agree that the environment that creates this is both found within the police and outside the police themselves. And the following internally has been done, posters around the campaign, police safety hints were distributed to all email address users or

 

 

through salary advice messages with safety hints messages are forwarded via SAPS electronic media and SAPS journal, encouraging members to take care of their wellbeing in order to be professional and productive members.

 

 

And, externally an advert building up to the commemoration day this year and post commemoration day has been done. Onsight assessment are conducted to identify the circumstance and conditions under which the members were killed on duty. The SAPS employees are then sensitised to take preventive measures when performing their duties. These announcements are emphasised during visits to stations and units.

 

 

Members are visited during parades and operational duties, to assess the wearing of protective gear and sanitise members regarding personal safety.

 

 

Several national circulars were distributed to emphasize the compulsory wearing of bullet proof vest by all members. During the national prayer day and provincial prayer day take place annually to enhance the safety of all members, to involve the community as a build up to the national commemoration day.

 

 

The month of September was declared Police Safety Month and all measures and the prevention of police killings are enhanced, such as safety workshops, including enhancing operational readiness and the psychological wellbeing of members. SAPS members are required to attend fitness assessment to support their physical and psychological wellbeing. And refresher courses are undertaken to reskill them in dealing with different situation they may counter whilst on duty. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Thank Deputy Chairperson and thank you, hon Deputy Minister for your response. Hon Deputy Minister, the department has put in place some interventions to deal with the killing of police as you’ve indicated and we also believe that the death of the police officer in the hands of criminals is one too many. Deputy Minister, can you thus indicate what role can community play in assisting to stop the killing of police, especially in the communities where they reside. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks very much, Deputy Chair and thanks for that follow up comment. Indeed, the community have a central role to play, in our fight against crime and in particular in our fight against the killing of police

 

 

officers. And, in this regard, the community can through their community policing forums, work towards ensuring that they work very closely with communities in the campaign to ensure that there is awareness within the communities in terms of our community members are expected to interact with police officers.

 

 

Not only through police forum but also through neighbourhood watch and also through the establishment of active rural safety forums that are encouraged in our fight against crime. We know that communities are broad and communities are also found within traditional environment and therefore, it is important that through the implementation of the traditional policing, communities and traditional areas also participate in this regard. But, they can also participate through being part of the campaigns that we embark on, as we do ministerial imbizos.

 

 

This are forums within which ourselves as SAPS and together with communities we can contribute towards lessening the attitude towards police officers, not only them but including members of the NCOP and of Parliament as whole, who can play a role in ensuring that public education is intensified to make our people aware that police are important. And we need to

 

 

relate with them in manner that is humane and discourage people from being violent, when they react to police officers. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

 

 

Mr M R BARA: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister there are external threats to the lives of SAPS officers. And there is the internal threat of post-traumatic stress disorder and other mental health issues. In February, a cop in Mpumalanga shot her boyfriend and a five months old baby, then shot herself. In March a KwaZulu-Natal, KZN officer shot his partner and then committed suicide. In April a detective from Bellville is believed to have shot himself in his office.

 

 

We know there’s a wellness programme in place but it is either not working or officers are not taking the individual responsibility to seek assistance, which is it? And what do you think need to change for officers to seek help before it is too late? Thank you Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you Deputy Chair and thanks for the question. Yes, indeed there are these programmes that we have outlined here which are aimed at assisting our police officers, to be able to respond to the stress environment that they encounter in their daily work,

 

 

because we all agree that police work by its nature is work that is very, very stressful. And if there’s no intensified education programme to ensure that psychologically our police officers are assisted, it will lead to environment where there are losses of life.

 

 

As you have indicated where police officer shot and killed her boyfriend or there are instances where he killed his girlfriend. So, these situations are because of the stressful nature of the work that they do.

 

 

So, society as a whole not only the South African Police have a responsibility towards ensuring that our police officers are treated with respect and the education programmes that we have through our social work programmes to assist them to psychological adjust, will need to be intensified. It won’t be an easy programme but it’s a programme that we should continuously engage in as South African Police. But, call upon society as a whole that we must make a contribution towards ensuring that the environment within which our police officers are working is distressfully is not contributing towards creating a stressful situation for themselves, that will lead as they go home, to relieve their stress either to their

 

 

partners or to the people they stay with. Thank you Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Deputy Minister, I have seen some police officers around Free State, that are on duty without wearing bullet proof but assist to protect them. Is there any management consequence to the police officers who report on duty without wearing bullet proof? Thank you Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Deputy Chair and thanks for the question. Yes, there’s instances where police officers will go to work without wearing the protective gear. But, when we go for operations, where you know that you likely confront situations that will necessitate that gear to be present, we make sure that police officers go there wearing their protective gears. But, as and when they leave for work, is not all the time that they go to work, is necessary for them to put their protective gear. Of course, I agree it might be contradictory because we say the work that they do is such that anything can happen to them, either on their way to work or on their way home.

 

 

And, in such instances, if they did not put on their vests, it might put their life in danger but for operational purposes at all times, we make sure that all officers who are going for operations they have put on their protective gears. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr S F Du TOIT: Thank Deputy Chair, hon Deputy Minister, according to the Institute for Security Studies, SAPS reported that between 21 ... [Inaudible.] ... 130 police officials were killed and many more were killed after that. Now, I am quoting:

 

 

Simply treating harsh sanctions against police murders and encouraging police to focus on using more force to

... [Inaudible.] ... criminals, is unlikely to improve officers ‘safety. Rather it will play into systematic police brutality, and the snowball effect from the ... [Inaudible.]

 

 

The study also finds that the perpetrators in almost one of ten police killings was another police official. It’s evident that organisational shortcomings that contributed to or at the very least failed to prevent this deaths and injuries of many police victims. Poor leadership, insufficient training and

 

 

insufficient debriefing, lack of resources, lack of bullet proofs at some stations, shortage of police working vehicles and staff shortages all contributes to an unsafe working environment. Deputy Minister, would you take responsibility for the failure in police structures, the lack of support and of training police officials, the shortage for police vehicles that combines are contributing factors, for these police killings? Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks Deputy Chair and thanks hon member for that question. Is incorrect to say that, there is lack of leadership and there’s lack of police vehicle and as a consequence of that, then there are police killing.

There’s leadership in the South African Police led by both Minister and the National Police Commissioner. And we do have training programmes that train our police officers, to be ready to do their work. What we should understand and appreciate hon members is that we are a product of a violent society. Is not going to be magic that we wake up in the morning and suddenly we have a South African society that is not a product of violent environment.

 

 

It is a fact that the apartheid legacy we are living it today. If you look at the spatial development of our country. It has

 

 

been done in a such a manner that a particular section of our society, particularly Africans and black in general. Their environment within which they grow and stay has not been conducive for any peaceful coexistence. And because of this and the fact that were a product of a violent society, you still have these remnants in today’s world wherein people still believe that solutions to their problems can be violently resolved.

 

 

You can look at the protests that are currently taking place in Harrismith starting yesterday and today. People are throwing stones around, as if stones will resolve the challenges that made them to go on a protest in the first place.

 

 

So, this is just but a reflection of where we come from and who we are as a country and its high time that we should acknowledge this and take responsibility jointly, all of us to ensure that we re-educate South Africans to understand that violence is not a solution to any problem on the table. But we need to engage constructively, peacefully in manner that we can resolve our problems without resorting to violence. And this is the only solution to the problems that we are confronted with.

 

 

No amount of the training of the South African Police will change the attitude of South Africans but not all South Africans of course but particularly those who believe either through sharp object or through guns that they should take somebody’s life to be heard. Because, that’s the problem we are dealing with and that’s the problem as a country we need to confront and defeat. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Question 132:

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chair, and thank you for the question. The budget allocation for the subprogramme VIP Protection for the 2021-22 financial year amounts to

R1,7 billion. The allocation of the subprogramme was adjusted during the 2020 adjustment estimate process to R1,6 billion for the total subprogramme - from the main budget allocation of R1,8 billion in the 2020-21 financial year.

 

 

The increase from the 2020-21 financial year to the 2021-22 financial year is mainly due to the baseline for travel and subsistence for the programme, which was revised to a previous funding level in the 2021-22 financial year - adjusting the allocation to the same level of funding, as prior to COVID-19 restrictions on movement last year. The uncertainties due to the unpredictable nature of the COVID-19 pandemic necessitated

 

 

an upward adjustment for this year and had to be effected, should travel restrictions be lifted and foreign travel be allowed. The increase from last year to the current year, allowed for the increase in the allocation for travel and subsistence due to the downward adjustment last year in the 2020 adjustments estimate, to R96 million from the initial budget amount of R149 million for the programme in the main budget for 2020-21.

 

 

The budget for this purpose for the 2021-22 financial year amounts to R144 million. Due to the aforementioned arrangement, the sub-programme: VIP Protection’s baseline for the current financial year was adjusted to a previous funding level, especially in respect of travel and subsistence expenditure. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, the Hawks are receiving R300 million less than the VIP Protection Unit, implying that protecting politicians is more important than fighting corruption. In fact, there are more offices that are protecting politicians than the ones patrolling the sovereign borders of our Republic. This

R1,7 billion budget can be called the Cabinet’s self-defence budget, because that is what it is, yet you want to take away

 

 

civilians’ right to self-defence by taking away their firearms. Do you think this is fair if you yourselves don’t feel safe out there? Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: My apologies, I almost answered before you call me.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): No, it is

 

fine. We just want to keep the way we have been doing. So, you can continue.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much Chair and thank you for the follow-up question. I don’t think it’s correct to say that the VIP Protection is meant for the politicians. It is not necessarily meant for the politicians but it is meant for all those that require to be provided with protection. For example, the judiciary service which includes judges who also form part of those that are provided with the necessary protection.

 

 

The protection includes foreign dignitaries visiting our shore who will need to be given the necessary protection and special events that we host as a host – Youth Day celebrations, Africa Investment Forum and many other events that take place in our

 

 

country which will need protection. So, the monies are meant for that. And it is incorrect that we sit and take a decision that the Hawks must be disadvantaged while the protection service is given the necessary resources because it is meant to protect us as politicians – it is not like that.

 

 

It is necessary to protect office bearers in the country and those who happen to be part of this office bearers deserve to be given the necessary support as part of the tools of trade that they require to carry out their responsibilities. Yes, we must intensify our fight against crime and make sure that the Hawks and all other necessary units within the SA Police receive the necessary support to execute their responsibilities. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much Deputy Chair and thank you hon Deputy Minister for your response. Deputy Minister, I think you partially covered my question but perhaps you can still indicate or elaborate in terms of what effect will underbudgeting for VIP protection services have on the work of the SA Police Service. Thank you, Deputy Chair

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chair and

 

thank you hon member for that comment. Indeed, if you don’t

 

 

create a capacity within the VIP protection section to ensure that they have the ability to provide the necessary support that the leadership of the country deserves or including our VIPs, our dignitaries, the Chief Justices and the judges of this country because they need to be given the necessary support so that they worry less about things that are not their mandate.

 

 

Obviously, if you don’t provide the necessary funding for his section, you stand a chance of not being able to execute your responsibility effectively. Despite these challenges of budget cuts that have been witnesses by all various sections within the SA Police, we have reorganised ourselves in such a manner that we will be able to carry out our responsibilities as mandated by the Constitution to ensure that as we organise events, be it Youth Day or any other event, the necessary protection is provided for such events so that nobody goes in there and come back in a manner that they should not be because of lack of security.

 

 

Yes, we work within the available resources limited as they might be to provide the services that are necessary. Thank you very much.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you Deputy Chairperson of the national Council of Provinces. Deputy Minister, many police stations around the country are dysfunctional with broken down vehicles overworked police force with no resources to mount any significant fight against criminals. On top of that many within the force are working in cohort with the criminals which makes things even more difficult for the honest police within the police force. Their primary mandate is to protect South Africans citizens against crime.

 

 

So, what was the logic used to cut the budget of the core business of the Police and increase on VIP protection? Tell us Deputy Minister, who are you afraid of out there to be killed other than protecting ordinary citizens of South Africa who put you to power. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you Deputy Chair. It is not about the fear of communities out there because yes indeed, we were elected by the people of South Africa. We can’t be afraid of people who have elected us. I think it is important for members to understand that VIP protection is part of the tools of trade that members of the executive, members of the judiciary and dignitaries who visit our country, be it heads of states from other countries who come

 

 

to South Africa, they are expected to be given these tools of trade for them to be able to carry out their work effectively.

 

 

I agree with the observation that they made which needs our attention – the issues of properly capacitated stations, vehicles of the SAPS that are working and are not in garages and not being attended to. Those are separate questions from the issues of tools of trade that the executive and the judiciary are supposed to be provided with, given our Ministerial handbook which has been approved and regulated by the executive in terms of how they must be provided the necessary services.

 

 

So, those the tools of trade must be provided. And we can’t say that because there is a problem around government garages, therefore we can’t provide these tools of trade for people to carry put their responsibilities. They must be given the tools of trade for them to work, and at the same time, as the leadership of the SA Police Service, we must make sure that our supply chain issues are properly attended to. I think one of the questions has been raised around this matter. We will talk about it in detail when we address that. Thanks, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Question 123:

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much for the opportunity, Deputy Chairperson, and thanks for the question. Yes, challenges were identified and personnel at the procurement and contract management component within the SA Police Service, division supply chain management, provincial offices and head office divisions were sensitise to comply with all relevant processes, prescripts and directives pertaining to demands management acquisition, procurement, contract and bid management and disposals, noncompliance with the relevant prescripts and procedures results in irregular fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Yes, stringent measures have been put in place, the division supply chain has trained personnel in the supply chain environment in all the provinces and divisions, performance management workshops were held and pocket guides which addresses all the required prescripts and protocols were issued to the personnel, members of the bid evaluation committee and the bid adjudication committee were trained by the national School of government regarding bids and contracts. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Ms M BARTLETT: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon Minister, thank you for your pointed and clear response to my question. It is pleasing to learn about the various

 

 

mechanisms that have been put in place to deal with challenges in the SA Police Service, SAPS, Supply Chain Management Division. However, my question, hon Deputy Minister, is whether there has been any meaningful change in the department since the implementation of the intervention programs. If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you, hon Deputy Minister and hon Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. This division has been problematic for the past years and then we have been able to turn the corner with regard to this, particularly with the appointment of General Rich who is now heading supply chain in the division. The division has had a series of case for changes and in that vein developed interventions towards the corporate renewal with a stabilisation and normalisation approach towards their internal function. Service delivery and capability development of supply chain practitioners in the SA Police Service. The division has established a supply chain management performance management office responsible for supplying chain compliance and performance at all levels in the SA Police Service. Supply chain has developed an electronic performance analysis tool designated to assist accounting stations, provinces, divisions and supply chain head office towards self-diagnosis and self-

 

 

correction of all supply chain regulatory criteria. It will also provide an early warning system for any supply chain management noncompliance and or ... [Inaudible.] ... performance in the SA Police Service and this will ensure timeous intervention.

 

 

The division has developed and tested and intervention ... [Inaudible.] ... to regularise procurement in the SAPS through a certification process before order forms are issued. The outcome of the intervention that will be formally executed from 1st July 2021 is envisaged to eradicate irregular expenditure within the South African police. All divisions in three provinces have saw far been developed over a five-year deal section in the new approach towards supply ... [Inaudible.] ... performance assessment compliance and service delivery within the South African police. The remaining six provinces are planned to be completed by 2 July 2021. A total of about 120 supply chain management personnel have already been developed in this regard. The new approved supply chain structure designated towards enhancing supply chain capability and services delivery in SAPS is pending execution in terms of the agreement with the employee union agreement one of 2020.

 

 

With regard to fleet management SAPS has entered into the transversal contract RT46 maintenance and repair of motor vehicles which is already bearing fruit by improving the availability of a special frontline police vehicles for service delivery. It also benefits the stabilisation of the eminent shortage of artisans for the diverse types of SAPS vehicles, like I said earlier on, Deputy Chair, that the issue of vehicles that are packed in a SAPS garages will be an issue of the past without them being attended to with these new contracts which is transversal which was done in collaboration with National Treasury is going to enhance our ability to deal with cars that are in SAPS garages for one reason or the other. I’m quite confident that the plans we have put in place are going to radically change the way things have been run with regard to supply chain and the management of our fleet as the South African police which has been a major problem. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr S F Du TOIT: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, we all know that Mr Jacob Zuma has a controversial character with 18 charges of corruption and at least 700 cases of fraud and money laundering and it’s even in that corruption is unwanted results of deployment and appointment of politically connected individuals with agendas. It is

 

 

interesting that in 2012, Minister Bheki Cele was released of his duties by Mr Zuma, the then President as a result for alleged corruption and has also been implicated by the Zondo Commission. Now many of these mechanisms were put place, but it doesn’t seem to be enforced. Therefore, one would say that some of the personnel that contravene the legislation in the supply chain management are only doing their work and following the example that was set by the Minister. Now, Deputy Minister, could you please provide information on the amount of individuals that have been arrested as a result of corruption in the police as supply chain management units.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. I might not be able to give figures, Deputy Chair. However, what I can say is that those who were found to have engaged in wrongdoing within SAPS have been dealt with. I think the issue around the former President is an irrelevant question to what we are discussing before us and I think whatever differences people have or attitudes they have towards the former President they should find a correct platform to raise those issues there. I think here we are dealing with supply chain within the SA Police Service.

 

 

As I said that those who were engage in wrongdoing around the space have been dealt with. It can be around the blue lights contracts that were handled in a manner that was not appropriate, steps were taken against them and they are appearing before court. Therefore, in our space anybody who engages in wrongdoing, we are determined to take actions against them and this is led by both the Minister and the national commissioner to make sure that we don’t have people within the men and women in blue who engage in criminal activities. Thank you very much.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Thank you Deputy Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, most of the corruption happening within the South African Police Force has everything to do with the underhanded links to the underworld, gangsterism is growing because many members of the SA Police Service are in the pockets of gangsters and key figures of the underworld. Cape Town is the epicentre of this collision. What impact, therefore, do you think the dismissal of the head of the detectives here in Cape Town, Jeremy Vearey, will have on the fight against gangsterism and corruption within the police sector, particularly here in the Western Cape. Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Thanks for the comment ... [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You may

 

respond or you may refer because it’s not necessary directly

 

to what we ... [Inaudible.] ... Continue, Deputy Minister.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I think you said what I wanted to say, Deputy Chair, that the issue of General Vearey and the issues we are discussing and the gangsterism are completely irrelevant to the question that we are dealing with. Thank you very much.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon

 

Mokause, the question that you are asking is really not directly linked to the specific question with regards to issues of supply chain management. This is a different issue. That is why I said that the Deputy Minister can refer or he can respond, and you it because you are one person who knows the rules of this House very well.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: I’m just rising on a point of order. Deputy Chairperson, you are being unfair on your ruling because the really issue here is corruption and we as an organisation are

 

 

pointing out the root causes of corruption within the police force. Therefore, for the Deputy Minister to actually degenerate a point where he says he’s not going to even attempt to answer is completely wrong.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon

 

Mokause, I’ve made my ruling and we will continue. Hon Brauteseth, can you now ask your follow-up question.

 

 

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, your department did business to the amount of more than R600 million with Forensic Data Analysis, and those contracts have been in existence since 2013. Deputy Minister, in 2017, the SAPS ... [Inaudible.] ... in front of Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa. I personally was ... [Inaudible.] ... I was personally part of the recommendations to the SAPS that they investigate all of the Forensic Data Analysis, FDA, contracts in order to see where the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, regulations and supply chain management regulations have been followed. Unfortunately, the SAPS completely wrong under the stake and run off to court to discuss issues relating to intellectual property.

 

 

As a result of all of these the SAPS continued to do business with the FDA and when payment stopped ... [Inaudible.] ... opportunity a complete State Capture opportunity for a private individual to close down SAPS systems. He closed down the ... [Inaudible.] ... key systems, I’m sure you are more than aware of this. So, the question I have for you today, Deputy Minister is, did the SAPS ever fully investigate all of the FDA contracts and see if they were complying with the Public Finance Management Act regulations, especially in light of ... [Inaudible.] ... supplier regulations. If it was not done, when will it be done. Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I think this is almost similar to the previous question, but though they differ in the sense that it involves FDA and the South African police. And as we speak the matter is before a court of law which is going to adjudicate around this. I don’t think it’ll be appropriate for me at this moment to go into that direction of trying to interact with issues that has to do with FDA and the ... [Inaudible.] ... and other related matters. Thank you, Deputy Chair.

 

 

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Sorry, Deputy Chairperson, point of order please. The original question is about supply chain

 

 

management. The entire FDA issue is entail about supply chain management, is not about corruption, is about supply chain management and Public Finance Management Act regulations.

Honestly, the Deputy Minister should be asked to answer.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon member,

 

the Deputy Minister said that the entire issue around the FDA and also mentioned another issue is in front of the court which makes sub judicare. And I think on the basis of that, that is why he said that it won’t be proper for him to respond now. We can request ... [Interjections.]

 

 

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy Chairperson, the first problem ruled that sub judicare is not an excuse to answer a parliamentary question. That was decided in the National Assembly.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I hear you,

 

but I still rule that since that was the response of the Deputy Minister, we rather get the specific issues responded in writing. However, for now since it’s in front of the court I will not compromise the issue. Therefore, then basis I rule that I accept that the Deputy Minister will not be in the position to respond now. Therefore, having said that can we be

 

 

back in 10-minutes time, let’s say 14:30. Let us now take a

 

break. Thank you.

 

 

COUNCIL SUSPENDED FOR COMFORT BREAK AT 14:18

 

 

COUNCIL RESUMED FROM COMFORT BREAK AT 14:30

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon Ngwezi

 

is not present at the moment. So, I think, unless the hon Deputy Minister, DM, feel that it is a burning question he wants to respond to, we will skip that question. DM, are you fine?

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: I will be guided by you, Chair.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): We will

 

skip Question 120 by Hon Ngwezi.

 

 

Question 124:

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, the following steps have been implemented to reduce the backlog. All forensic analysts underwent medical surveillance and vaccination as required, with the exception of analysts who were referred to further medical examinations.

 

 

Engagements with labour unions have been initiated to review basic conditions of employment to permit the implementation of a flexible shift system within the division, Detective and Forensic Services.

 

 

Seven bid contracts have been awarded to facilitate the procurement of several critical deoxyribonucleic acid or DNA reagents and consumables, maintenance and collaboration of some of the specialised DNA instruments, waste removal and proficiency testing. Two bid contracts were partially awarded for DNS reagents and consumables. Nonresponsive bids were received for the specialised personal protection equipment, for the laboratories, crime scene examination, maintenance and collaboration of the semi-automated reference index, lens to analyse buccal samples and the maintence and collaboration of some instruments in the semi-automated crime index lens.

 

 

The bid process will be initiated again. In the interim, the forensic-size laboratory is reliant on quotations to sustain DNA examination of exhibit material. The bid for the procurement and installation of the manual and semi-automated DNA processing system for the Eastern Cape has been awarded and the project has been initialised with a two-year finalisation date.

 

 

The forensic exhibit management track and trace system was implemented on 6 April 2021. The development of an additional functionality such as batch exhibit, handover and biometric functionality is in the process of development.

 

 

The record registered from implementation dates are as follows

 

- those are the numbers created since April to June 2021: totalling 139 513. Members are working overtime in order to assist with the reduction of backlog cases. Early warning measures have been implemented to effectively manage minimum stock levels.

 

 

Daily monitoring of DNA exhibition production is conducted. In response to 2.8(b), a multidisciplinary action plan was established to manage the DNA backlog, including gender-based violence and femicide-related case work.

 

 

Over and above the measures mentioned in response to the first question, the following additional measure have been implemented: sustaining close collaboration with the National Prosecution Authority to prioritised gender-based violence and femicide case work; nodal offices have been implemented to monitor outstanding DNA cases with court and final remand dates; GBV cases with court dates are prioritised and closely

 

 

monitored by their Food Security and Livelihoods, FSL; weekly convening of the regular Multidisciplinary Steering Committee meetings to monitor an evaluate if progress is done. Thank you.

 

 

Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon Deputy Chair, thank you, Deputy Minister, for your detailed response on these matters. It is really encouraging to hear about these measures taken to address the challenges of the forensic service laboratory. My question is whether there is any plan in place to increase the capacity of the laboratory or to build more laboratories, in order to increase the overall capacity to deal with these cases. I thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon Mathetwa, yes, indeed, we have taken a decision within the SAPS that we will increase our capacity to deal with this, given the challenges that we have gone through in the past years. Amongst the things that we have done is that we are establishing a full forensic-size laboratory in the Eastern Cape to deal with these specific challenges.

 

 

Yes, indeed, we will definitely make sure that all the nine provinces have the capacity or functionality to deal with this challenge that we have with the laboratories. Thank you.

 

 

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Deputy Minister, there is a generalised degeneration within SAPS, which is not limited only to laboratory services, but all the departments within SAPS, such as Central Firearm Registry. Without sorting out these massive inefficiencies, SAPS will never be able to fight crime in this country. What are your comprehensive plans, besides the ones that you have mentioned here of a multidisciplinary team, which is sitting and assessing all these things? We can tell you now that the results from forensic laboratories are taking more than 10 months to be received by someone who is actually investigating a case at the level of the police station. So, can you elaborate more so that South Africans at least know whether you are reluctant or not reluctant.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, we do a plan and I have outlined it earlier when I was explaining what we are doing, particularly with regard to the management of the cases of DNA. For instance, in the month of April, we did 46 000 and subsequent to that, in May, it was 72 000. This June, we are

 

 

already at 20 000 and we are just in mid-June. A total of 136 000 have been processed. This is a clear indication that we are not generalising. We are at work dealing with the backlog before us. We have a plan. We have put a plan in place. We have put systems in place. As I said earlier, there are contracts that have been awarded and they will assist us in dealing with the backlog that we have.

 

 

I think it is a reality that we have had challenges in the DNA area within the forensic space and generally in the supply- chain management. In the past ... Since 2019-20, these are areas that we have been dealing with, but I am confident that we have turned the corner. We are dealing with the challenges. We have put the plans in place. We have put the system in place and they are working. The results are there for everyone to see. We are working closely with the National Prosecution Authority, Justice, to ensure that there is no backlog in that area.

 

 

Cases that must be heard are prioritised. I think it is work in progress, but we are making headway. It is not just talk and it is not just generalised comments made by SAPS. We are working on this and we shall overcome. Thank you.

 

 

Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, we have heard what you have said about the backlogs and the work that your department has been doing in connection with the backlogs. However, by the middle of May this year, there were 139 cases of assault, rape and domestic violence that were thrown out of court, as a direct result of the DNA backlog, and that was in Cape Town alone.

 

 

These women will never see justice. The wheels of justice are just turning too slow in this regard. As I have said, we have heard what you have said about the backlogs and that you are working on it, but should that not happen, will you take responsibility for this now and in the future that these women have not received justice in this regard? Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, definitely, we take responsibility and we have already taken responsibility for the challenges that the police are confronted with in dealing with this issues. We do say so today, here, to you and members of the committee that we will take responsibility. We are responding and we are working very closely with NPA. We are confident in the work and the progress that we are making.

 

 

Of course, we are not excited about what has been experienced in the Western Cape. It is not something we are proud of. Yes, we are on course and we will respond appropriately to the challenges that our people are faced with, who are really the victims of crime.

 

 

Ms S F Du TOIT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon DM, I want to know

 

... You mentioned that contracts were awarded. What percentage of the backlogs will be outsourced and not handled by SAPS forensic laboratory, as a remedial measure to fast-track the criminal procedure process? And has any disciplinary action started or been initiated against a person or persons who are supposed to be held responsible for this partial collapse of the structure? Thank you.

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon member, at the moment, we are working together, through the Presidency, with the private sector. One of the people who we are working with is Dr Judy Dlamini to deal with the DNA problem and there is a technical team that is working on that.

 

 

In terms of the percentages of the contribution from the private sector, I will not venture into that because I don’t have the percentage with me currently. Once we have agreed

 

 

upon this, we should be able to determine what the contribution will be by the private sector and we can gladly share that information with the House.

 

 

With regard to steps taken, when I spoke about the supply- chain issue earlier, I mentioned the challenges we are confronted with in that space. These challenges within supply- chain space have created this DNA problem that we are dealing with. It is a product of that problem. We have resolved that problem, so we have effectively dealt with the root cause of what created this environment of DNA that we found ourselves in.

 

 

Those who engaged in wrongdoings within the space have been dealt with and currently, we are in a process of consolidating the team to ensure that it is as effective as possible. I have said that we have appointed the head of the unit, which is led by General Reed, who was appointed last year to deal with supply-chain matters.

 

 

So, we have crossed that bridge and I am confident that the work and the team that we have put in place will deliver.

Thank you.

 

 

Question 133:

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson and thanks to the member for the question, yes, the Minister of police is serious about ridding the SA Police Service of criminals in its ranks. The SAPS implemented an ethics and anticorruption strategy on 26 June 2018. The institutionalisation of the SAPS code of conduct is listed as a priority in the strategy. The SAPS management has established an ethics committee to oversee and institutionalise ethics and integrity management in the SAPS.

 

 

A National Instruction 18 of 2019 Integrity Management has been implemented to operationalise the ethics strategy and other prescripts, including the code of conduct. Various circulars have been issued by the South African police management to ensure the proper institutionalisation of the SAPS code of conduct. These prescripts include, but are not limited to instruction to members that the SA Police Service code of conduct should be confirmed at all parades, meetings and gatherings of the SA Police Service. All the SAPS employees are compelled to sign a certificate annually to pledge their commitment to the code of conduct. The signed certificates are then placed in the personnel files of all

 

 

employees, and compliance is monitored through the Persal system.

 

 

The institutionalisation of the SAPS code of conduct has already proven effective as statistics have reflected decreasing cases related to conflict of interest and an increase in terms of compliance with the financial disclosure framework. The SAPS ... [Inaudible.] ... risk and integrity management co-ordinated an ethics and fraud risk assessment during early 2021 to ensure that the ethics and anticorruption strategy is reviewed and updated with the latest threats and the actions that are required to mitigate this threats. Thanks very much, Chair and members.

 

 

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, during the budget briefings in the committee this year, a few weeks ago, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, indicated that there are members within the SAPS who have been found guilty of rape and murder, but not all of them have been dismissed from your service. They have also complained to us that although the IPID Act says that the SAPS must initiate disciplinary steps where it recommends such, but you don’t always do it. If the SAPS respects the recommendations of IPID and if you are serious about ridding

 

 

the service of criminals within your rank, why does the SAPS ignore the recommendations in some cases and the law, and ignore IPID’s recommendations? Or are you saying IPID is lying to us?

 

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks very much, Chair, and thanks hon member for that question. As far as I am aware, there are no recommendations that we are ignoring. If recommendations come, they get processed and the verdict that is reached is different from what was expected from any institution including IPID, I think cases like those can happen but there is no case that we sit on and not process. If anybody is involved in criminal activity, we act as the leadership. There are no instances where we will shield wrongdoing. That will never be done by the leadership of the SA Police led by the Minister and the National Commissioner.

Thank you very much.

 

 

Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, greetings to your good self. Hon Deputy Minister, perhaps I should also start by appreciating your comprehensive response. It is clear that the department is implementing strategies that will go a long way in ensuring that police are able to get rid of rogue police officers in their service.

 

 

Hon Deputy Minister, in ... [Inaudible.] ... is it a fraction of police officers who engage in acts of criminality or the problem is bigger than we can imagine? Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.

 

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you for the comments and I appreciate that. I should say to members and the people of South Africa that we have a tiny minority of rogue elements within the South African police. The majority of our police officers do their work professionally with diligence and act in a manner that we are very proud. We just have some few rotten apples which we must flush out of the system and give them the orange uniform that they deserve. The blue uniform is meant for men and women of integrity. The majority of them are conducting themselves in such a manner that South Africans are also proud of the work that they are doing. Thank you very much.

 

 

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you

 

very much, hon Deputy Minister, let me thank all the Ministers and Deputy Ministers that availed themselves today for the response to our questions. Hon Dodovu’s question brought us to the end of our business for today.

 

 

The Council adjourned at 14:53.

 

 

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