Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 06 May 2021


No summary available.





The House met at 14:02.

The Acting Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr M waters has been filled by the nomination of Ms T Bodlani with effect from 17 March 2021. [Applause.] The member has made and subscribed the oath in our office through the virtual platform. Welcome, hon member.

Lastly, in the interest of safety, hon members, we remind you once more to please keep your masks on and generally stick around the sit you are allocated to. That will be great for the day and for all of us.

Hon members, I have been informed that the President will speak to us virtually. That’s the situation today.



Ka Sesotho re re ...





... can you deal with that echo, please!





... Monokotshwai ha o butswe ho ya ka takatso ya tshwene.





We would have liked him to be here. He always prefers to be here but he is unable to do so. So, we will deal with that as it says.



There is only one item on today’s Order Paper and this is questions addressed to the President. There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have been given an indication which question their members wish to pose


supplementary questions to. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate the participation of members who are connecting to the sitting especially through the virtual platform. The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised.



In allocating opportunities, the principle of fairness, as usual, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question – this is to remind you – through the virtual platform and is unable to do so due to technical difficulties, the Party Whip on duty in the House and/or elsewhere, will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member.



When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper. The first question has been asked by the hon M Kibi. Welcome Mr President, and please proceed!









Question 1:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am sorry that I am not able to be in the House ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s the point of order, hon member?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I was waiting to check who is going to answer these questions because all of us who are here are representing political parties. And as far as we are concerned, maybe you must deal with that first. Who is he representing because the information we have is that Mr Ramaphosa is suspended from the organisation that gave him the mandate to be here? He must clarify who he is representing, his jacket or the political party ...






Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... because he is not permitted by his own organisation. [Inaudible.] Who is he representing? We want to listen to that first.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please sit down. Hon members, this is your information through your own networks and we


don’t know what you are talking about. As far as we are concerned, the President is here and he is going to ... You heard him anyway. So, Mr President, go ahead, please! [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Hon member, if you are proceeding on this thing, I have ruled on this matter and I have communicated to you. [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But it is false to say that ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! Hon member, I am speaking ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It must be dealt with here before ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: He must be representing his jacket.





XIRHO XO HLONIPHEKA: ... tshika ku huha. A hi telanga ku huhisa hi wena ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, you stood up there without anybody recognising you. This is a violation of the Rules of the House ... [Interjections.]





XIRHO XO HLONIPHEKA: ... tshika ku huha, u famba u tlanga mayindlwayindlwana ya wena kwalaho ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... and if you repeat that hon member, this will be considered as contempt. I think you should accept that. In the first place, we are here as Parliament and not as anything else. [Interjections.] Hon President ...



AN HON MEMBER: Social distance, you, Floyd. Social distance.





XIRHO XO HLONIPHEKA: Huma kwalaho, u tshama kahle. A hi huhi hina laha, hi tile entirhweni.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please don’t rule from the


floor! Hon members sitting on that seat, you are not supposed


to be sitting like that, please. You know that. Thank you very much. Hon members, don’t rule from the chairs where you are sitting. We will reserve this chair for you but in the future. [Laughter.] Mr President, please go ahead.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what’s your point of order?



Ms O M C MAOTWE: The deputy president of the EFF asked a question and it has not been responded to. With all the greatest respect, I’m talking to you, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s the question?



Ms O M C MAOTWE: The question is: Who is the person talking now, answering the questions, speaking on behalf ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... [Interjections.]


Ms O M C MAOTWE: We are here as ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] ... members deployed by political parties ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order. [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, can you protect me?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: I am on the floor. Can I be protected?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]



AN HON MEMBER: Are you members of the ANC now? What do you complain ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: This is not your Parliament. I’m speaking to


the Deputy Speaker here.



AN HON MEMBER: They must worry about theirs, not the ANC.


Deputy Speaker, can you control your members? They are out of order. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members including those on the virtual platform, can you please ... [Interjections.] Hon member, can you take your seat so that I can address you?



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Okay.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, this is Parliament. Parliament has not heard a story that you are telling us about - you and your Chief Whip. We don’t know what you are talking about as Parliament. So, there is no question of such nature that arises. As a result, we are here to listen to the President of the country. So, this is what is going to proceed. Hon President, please go on. I am not taking any order on this matter anymore. Ho President, let’s proceed.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members




The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, give the President a chance to speak, please!



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: In relation to the first question, the achievement of a national democratic society is a necessary response to the economic and social inequalities in South Africa. It describes a society that is truly united, democratic, nonracial and nonsexist. It is an inclusive society in which all people benefit from sustainable economic growth.



Since the advent of democracy in 1994, the country has made valuable progress along the path towards a national democratic society. We are not yet there but we have made great progress.



Now, the measures we are undertaking to rebuild our economy in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, are contributing to the fundamental transformation that is required to advance that aspiration.



We have said before that the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan cannot simply return our country to where it was before the pandemic struck. It needs to build a new, more


inclusive economy that can effectively reduce poverty, unemployment and inequality.



Through this plan we are mobilising investment, creating new jobs and supporting existing ones, and accelerating industrialisation.



We are undertaking large-scale public investment in key sectors of our economy such as energy, water and sanitation, roads and bridges, human settlements, health and education, digital infrastructure and public transport.



Investment in infrastructure is transformative. Not only does it stimulate growth and expand economic infrastructure, but it also improves our competitiveness and promotes job creation.

It also provides crucial social infrastructure and services to the people of our country, particularly those in poor and underserviced communities.



Already we have seen over the last 27 years how our investment in infrastructure – whether for electrification, water provision or housing – has contributed a great deal to reducing poverty.


We have seen how our investment in schools, clinics, colleges and universities have opened the doors of learning to many young people and improved access also to health care.



As we promote investment in sectors such as agriculture, manufacturing, mining and tourism we are supporting emerging businesses in these areas which were previously not even able to participate through the provision of finance, training and access to markets.



Our emphasis on localisation aims to not only benefit established companies, but also to grow small-scale manufacturers in the townships and to also promote our rural entrepreneurs.



We are undertaking the Presidential Employment Stimulus to provide work opportunities through public employment programmes, as well as through the protection of existing jobs and with a view of supporting livelihoods.



By the end of March, the Presidential Employment Stimulus had supported over 650 000 opportunities through a wide range of programmes for people who would have otherwise remained


unemployed, with over half a million participants already at work.



As part of the employment stimulus:



More than 300 000 education assistants were placed in over


20 000 schools across our country. Funding has also been provided to protect vulnerable teaching posts.



Income support is being provided to more than 100 000 workers in the Early Childhood Development sector.



More than 50 000 opportunities are being created in public employment programmes in the environmental sector, including in natural resource management, fire prevention and the war on waste.



Almost 2 000 artisans have been hired by the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to support water and energy efficiency and many of these are young people. They have also been brought into facilities management and the Rural Bridges Programme.


The expansion of the Global Business Services incentive has enabled the creation of more than 8 000 new jobs in the sector since October.



More than 100 000 small-scale and subsistence farmers are being provided with input vouchers to expand their agricultural production.



Deputy Speaker, as we enter the second phase of the Stimulus, we are focused on ensuring that we establish pathways for participants into private sector employment in areas of education and training, or other enterprise support.



The Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan is underpinned by a dedicated focus on key economic reforms, particularly in network industries like energy, water, ports, rail, and telecommunications.



Through Operation Vulindlela, we are accelerating the implementation of these reforms and unlocking investment and growth.



Economic reforms are also necessary to reduce the cost of living for South Africans who will benefit from more


efficient, competitive and sustainable services like electricity, water as well as transport.



The achievement of a national democratic society requires a capable developmental state that is people-centred but also free from corruption.



This administration has therefore taken decisive measures to confront state capture and corruption, to rebuild public institutions and strengthen law enforcement agencies, and to also professionalise the public service.



Through the District Development Model, we are seeking to bring all levels of government closer to our people, and to ensure that communities and other stakeholders are more involved in the development and implementation of local development plans.



As we have worked towards our goal of a national democratic society over the last 27 years, we have been confronted by numerous challenges.



We have had to tackle the damaging legacy of our apartheid past, which continues to divide our society by race, gender


and class; and to cast a dark shadow over future of our young people.



We have also had to confront our own weaknesses, including corruption and areas of mismanagement and poor delivery.



Most recently, we have had to confront the coronavirus pandemic, the most severe global health crisis in more than a century.



As we work to rebuild our economy and society, we continue to pursue the fundamental social and economic transformation that our Constitution promises; and that the people of this country desire and deserve. Deputy Speaker, I thank you.



Question 1: (cont)




Nksz M T KIBI: Enkosi kakhulu Sekela Somlomo. Enkosi Mongameli ngokuphendula umbuzo wam. Mongameli, kwiphulo lokwenza umanyano lwentlalo kwilizwe lethu lukhawuleze, ngokusebenzisana kukarhulumente nemibutho yoluntu kwakunye nemibutho yamazwe ngamazwe ekuphuhliseni umanyano, ingaba akhona amanye amanyathelo amatsha kunye nezicwangciso ezitsha zokwenza uphuhliso nokukhawuleza kweenjongo ze ...




... National Development Plan, NDP 2030? Thank you Deputy Speaker.



UMONGAMELI WERIPHABLIKI: Ndiyabulela. Ewe akhona amanye amanyathelo amaninzi esijongene nawo nesisebenza ngawo okwangoku.





The focus on creating jobs is the main focus of this administration. It is for that reason that we focus on attracting investment into our economy from both the local business, both public sector as well as private sector, but also from international investors, some of whom operate their companies here. We are in the process of attracting more and more of them. Our focus is also on infrastructure.

Infrastructure investment remains one of the key areas that we want to grow our economy through. We are focusing on ensuring that we attract the private sector to invest with us. It is for that reason that were set up an Infrastructure Fund, which is up and running now, where the government has invested money and is in the process of attracting private sector investors in the form of various funds, development funds from all over the country and all over the world.


Focusing on infrastructure means that we can create more jobs, and we’ve got a number of projects that are already under implementation, a number of others are shovel ready and a number of others are going to be focusing on improving the lives of our people at local government level in areas such as, water, roads and houses. Student accommodation is another area where we are attracting quite a lot of investment. The reindustrialisation of our economy is another important area. We want to be able to achieve this through localisation through ensuring that we promote small and medium enterprises to become key players in the localisation of production of products and services in our own country. Through that, we are hoping that we will be able to support a number of businesses to continue growing. Small and medium enterprises need our support to access markets as well. Women-led businesses, youth-led businesses will continue to be our focus.





Emakhaya kwezokulima, sifuna ukuba ezolimo zibe neziphumo ukuze sikwazi ukulima kwaye zibeneenkomo ukuze abantu bakuthi bakwazi ...





... to export their products. I was overjoyed when I went to the Eastern Cape a few weeks ago, when I met about 54 emerging black farmers who are now in the citrus sector and who are now exporting their citrus products. They said what may now need is more land, more land and more financial support. It is in these areas that we want to upgrade our agriculture and a number of other areas through our country. It is for that purpose that, agriculture support is growing by leaps and bounds. Of course, in all this we want to continue improving the skills of young people, so that they can be so well trained and be able to be active participants in our economy. Those are a number of some of the initiatives that were involved in, that is part of our Economic Recovery and Reconstruction Plan.



With the Operation Vulindlela initiative, we are pushing ahead with all that informs that more needs to embark on, so that our economy can recover, so that we can create more and more jobs. This is our focus; this is what we are seeking to do through this plan. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker. Mr President, once again you have tiptoed around the elephant in the room. At the heart of the failures


mentioned.in the original question, lies your policy of cadre deployment. Every individual who crippled a state institution or allowed state-owned enterprises, SOEs to be turned into pots of looting for cadres, would have been deliberately deployed there by the ANC, many of them while you yourself, was the head of the Cadre Deployment Committee. In the Zondo Commission testimony, you said that well sometimes you got it wrong, well, that’s an understatement. Myeni, Molefe, Gama, Singh, Abrahams, Fraser, Montana, Motsoeneng, Mkhwebane, and the list goes on, all deployed on your watch. This cannot be justified under democracy.



Now, Mr President, the DA put its money where its mouth is. We have tabled the End Cadre Deployment Bill in this House. So my question to you today Mr President is: Will you support this Bill and if not, why won’t you support this Bill to end cadre deployment?



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you Deputy Speaker. Deputy speaker I we would like to say that Mr Steenhuisen or hon member Steenhuisen’s question is completely misdirected, it is not cadre development. It is indeed where we might have gone wrong, the people themselves, they may have had their own missteps. There is nothing inherently wrong with cadre


development. I did say at the Zondo Commission that, the extent that we need to streamline it with the concept of professionalising our public service, we are willing and prepared to do so. Professionalising in our public service means that, we are going to move ahead forward with appointing people who are fit for purpose. Sometimes you may appoint people thinking that they are fit for purpose, but be found wanton in one area or another.



All over the world, governing parties, including the DA where it governs, does embark political intervention in appointments, because what governing political party seeks to do is to ensure that it has people who understand its ideology, who understand with principles and who understand its programmes. Those people are usually, your high end people who will be driving a clear vision that the governing party seeks to achieve. This should never be mistaken. We are saying that everybody in the public service should a member of a political party, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD produce a wonderful paper that is written by Mr Mattison and the number of others where they say: It is necessary that governing parties should be able to appoint people at a political level. Those people must be fit


for purpose. Those people must be able to execute once the political party has been given as a mandate by the voters.



Ten million voters voted for the ANC and, having done so, we went to those 10 million voters, and said, this is our manifesto, and to execute our manifesto we need people who will be able to drive that manifesto of implementation. So, there is nothing wrong with cadre development. It is done all over the world. In the Zondo Commission, I even quoted what the leading lady of British politics, Margaret Thatcher used to say. She used to say it possibly much more pointedly than us. She used to ask: Is he or she is one of us? That is how she went about appointing key people in her administration.

Now, we are saying that our cadre development - appointments is really about ensuring as so what do we professionalise the public service, to have people who are well qualified, fit for purpose, who will be able to act in the interest of South Africans, and not be acting in their own personal interests, driven by greed or the interests of others where they are captured. The days of state capture are over [Laughter.] We now want people who are fit for purpose who will be able to act in the interests of all South Africans. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.



Deputy Speaker, I am very glad about the President quoting Thatcher, that’s some progress. But, he did not answer the question. [Interjections.] The question was, will he support the Bill or not? He has not answered that question. Let us not make the same mistake the Zondo Commission is criticised over Parliament for, by not getting people to answer the question. That was a simple question. Will you support the Bill or not? [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: Point of order Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Member, this is the problem ... I will give you a chance hon member. Hon Steenhuisen, this is a problem of - I do wish hon members could recognise the effect

... [Interjections.] Hon member we are talking here from the Chair. Can you have some at least, modicum of respect for a moment, it does not have to be your entire life. Just whilst we are speaking, can you hold on to your horses a little bit? We expect you to ask your question and then say everything else. If everything else, and then the question at the end


this, the person listening to you is likely to focus on the rest of your story, as the President did. [Interjections] No, I am advising you, because you will have constant quarrels that your questions have not been answered. You will have that. I am telling you that. Mr President, I am sure you will answer that question, there is no problem with doing so. The President has ...[Interjections.]



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, it appears that Mr Steenhuisen wants to force-feed me, but wants to force-feed me with a menu of food that I have not even seen. I have not had sight of this Bill that he is talking about. I don't know its contents. I do don't know its objective and once I have looked at it, I am quite happy to give Mr Steenhuisen a very straight forward and direct answer. Show me the Bill, and I will be able, offline or online to give you my view on onwards. Thank you very much.



Mr K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Mr President, in my response to your 2018 state of the nation address, I thank you for giving hope to the people of South Africa after a number of commitments you made. Among these, you promised to ensure that the tide of corruption in our public institutions would be turned. From what we are experiencing and what we are


seeing, it is happening at a very slow pace. You also said and I quote:



We are one people, committed to work together to find jobs for our youth, to build factories and roads, houses and clinics, to prepare our children for a world of change and progress, to build cities and towns where families may be safe, productive and content



Mr President, there are still majority, while many people in South Africa who still are not feeling safe, unemployment has risen, and many are desperate for a healthcare facility near them. My question to you, Mr President is: Does the state have the capacity and the will to reverse the hopelessness and low morale that so many South Africans are feeling, whilst ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member your time has expired, you know how much time you have, why do you extend it without permission? Thirteen seconds no man, hon members please. Hon President, please respond to the question.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you. We have been taking steps ever since the Sixth Administration started to root out corruption, to address malfeasance in government. We never


really expected it to be done in one year in one season, it is a process. It is for that reason that we have taken steps to change the trajectory of a number of our law enforcement institutions. The Zondo Commission is in the process now of uncovering quite a lot of what happened in the past, which we will attend to once that report is out, it is a process.



Do we have the will? Do we have the determination to address the aspirations of our people? The answer is yes, we do. We are committed to doing so. Sometimes yes, we may move slowly, government often move very slowly, but we’re shortening the time of being able to do things that are in the interests of our people. We come from a very low base and we will keep on working to improve the lives of our people when it comes to those matters that impact on their lives, at a social level, at an economic level and in many other levels. We are committed to doing so and this is what this government is all about.



Will we make mistakes along the way? Yes, we well will. We seek to correct our mistakes? Yes, we will. The important thing is that we will keep moving forward all the time. We would like to see all of us working together, in unison


addressing the interests of our people That to us is what matters most. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Mr President you in the Zondo Commission admitted that your party the ANC, has been receiving funding, sometimes you knew that it was unlawful, and sometimes you knew after that, but never returned the money because your organisation always needs money. Now, I put it to you Mr President that, your party and many others that benefit from this unlawful means are drinking the blood out of the bone of the most vulnerable people in this country.



Will you consider withdrawing from the elections, as you will have lost integrity, number one, not only the ANC but other parties that unduly benefits from this thing, charged criminally? Those that have received and those that knew about it and did very little or nothing about it. It is a criminal act to note these criminal acts that are taking place and you do nothing about it. Will you consider withdrawing from the election and those other parties in the interest of creating a better society?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Should I wait for your invitation to answer Deputy Speaker or go ahead?



THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No proceed, don’t wait Mr President. It’s


your day today.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am trying to be very disciplined, Deputy Speaker.



THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am absolutely impressed.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I was taught that I should only speak once invited to do so by yourself. So, forgive me, if I am over enthusiastic in relation to my disciplinary approach.



THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I appreciate it Mr President, please proceed.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you. I am asking myself whether hon Shaik Emam’s question really warrants an answer, because he is asking whether we should withdraw, possibly suggesting that the ANC should withdraw from the elections and those other parties that may well have received money. How does that answer and provide an answer to the people who are


out there, who would like to see those political parties who have programmes, who have solutions to their problems. My simple answer is no. The ANC will participate forthcoming elections with a great deal of enthusiasm. We get elected to represent the people of our country. As you will have seen, and this I say with all humility without being arrogant, the majority of our people still have confidence in the ANC, for their confidence is born out of their trust and belief, and also the evidence that they see that we are addressing the challenges that beset the organisation in the past.



You yourself hon Shaik Emam, will have seen how the ANC continues to be trusted by our people, through the local government by-elections that have been going on, where the ANC has been winning quite a number of seats, even from its opponents. Those people can see what is happening, and they see that the ANC is in the process of renewing itself, rebuilding itself, correcting itself and demonstrating its determination to focus on the interest of our people. They themselves are investing confidence in the ANC. Now you stand here hon Shaik Emam, and say, should we consider withdrawing? No, we will not, because our people want us to continue addressing their aspirations and fulfilling their dreams, which we continue doing on an ongoing basis.


I am sorry therefore to disappoint you and say we will not withdraw. Maybe you may well want to withdraw yourself, maybe you are sending us a settle message that, the NFP actually wants to withdraw. If you want to withdraw, withdraw on your own. Do not invite us to withdraw from the elections. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Question 2:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, an effective comprehensive vaccination programme is in the end an essential part of the fight to overcome the coronavirus pandemic.



Since we started negotiating with vaccine manufacturers around September of 2020, we have made significant progress and have overcome many challenges in securing sufficient vaccines to achieve what is known as population immunity.



In January South Africa signed a contract with the Serum Institute to deliver 1,5 million AstraZeneca doses to vaccinate health workers. The first batch of the vaccines was received in February of this year.


Unfortunately, the discovery that AstraZeneca was not effective against the dominant new variant of the virus meant that an alternative had to be sought. And this decision was based on thorough going discussions with our experts; it was not a decision that was taken by people who do not have the scientific and expert knowledge of how vaccines function.



The Johnson & Johnson vaccine was shown to be more effective against the variant that was found in South Africa and it was then that the vaccination of health workers begun; once we had received a number of doses.



The vaccination process was interrupted briefly when the US medicines regulatory body, the Food and Drug Administration, FDA, halted vaccination using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in mid-April this year because of extremely rare, yet severe, blood clots experienced by some people who were vaccinated, resulting in the deaths of a very few people.



South Africa’s Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, asked the Department of Health to halt the vaccination until the review of the available data was completed. This matter has since been resolved and the vaccination of health workers has now resumed.


We subsequently finalised a contract for the supply of


31 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccines. At the same time you might well know that we also finalised, as a continent now through the Africa vaccination acquisition task team that we set up, an agreement for 220 million doses for the rest of the continent.



However, we have learned in the past week that the delivery of this batch of vaccines will be delayed as a result of an FDA directive to Johnson & Johnson following the inspection of one of their facilities that raised a concern at that facility, who are partners of Johnson & Johnson.



Following finalisation of the contract with Johnson & Johnson we have also finalised a contract with Pfizer for the supply of 20 million vaccine doses with an additional allocation from Covax of nearly 1,4 million doses.



The first shipment of the Pfizer vaccine was received earlier this week.



It should be noted that negotiations with manufacturers were protracted as we had to ensure that the terms of the contracts


were consistent with our laws and were not detrimental to our national interest.



It also required that we set up a no-fault compensation scheme, through which those who experience severe adverse effects following vaccination can claim for damages.



We have now finalised contracts for sufficient doses to vaccinate 41,5 million people. The estimated times for the delivery of the vaccines depends on several factors, many of which are beyond our control.



The contractual delivery schedule as per the information shared by manufacturers is as follows - as you wanted to know:



In quarter 2 of 2021 we are scheduled to receive 3 million Johnson & Johnson doses, 4,5 million Pfizer doses from our contract with Pfizer and 1,4 million Pfizer doses through the Covax facility.



In quarter 3 – as you wanted to know - we are scheduled to receive 9,1 million Johnson & Johnson doses and 8 5 million Pfizer doses.


In quarter 4 we are scheduled to receive 19 1 million Johnson & Johnson doses and 7 million Pfizer doses.



In total we are, therefore, scheduled to receive 31,2 million Johnson & Johnson doses and 21,4 million Pfizer doses, including that Covax allocation that we are entitled to.



As a country we want to manufacture vaccines locally against this pandemic and future pandemics. It is for this reason that South Africa and India proposed the on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Right, TRIPS, Waiver at the World Trade Organisation, WTO, to enable manufacturing of COVID-19 vaccines in developing countries. The proposal is now supported by more than 100 countries. [Applause.]



We welcome the statement by the United States that it will support the TRIPS waiver on intellectual property protection for COVID-19 vaccines. Now, this is a victory for South Africa. It goes to show the influence we have as a country working together with others that our voice and messages have weight because they are rational, progressive and are meant to benefit people on our continent as well as in developing economies around the world; that is the influence we have.


Such a waiver should facilitate effective transfer of intellectual property, technology and know-how on mutually beneficial terms. This will ensure production is ramped-up across many countries to ensure timely, affordable and equitable access to diagnostics, vaccines and therapeutics. And it fits in very well with what we’ve been saying that vaccines should be seen as a public good.



Now, we wait for our negotiators who are going to negotiate the text at the World Trade Organisation to make sure that our objective in this regard is realised; that vaccines should be made available more broadly and vaccine imperialism and nationalism by more developed countries should come to an end. Hon Deputy Speaker, I thank you. [Applause.]



Question 2: (cont)


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Mr President, I am sure you agree that all that matters now are vaccines in arms, anything else is just simply waffle.

Vaccines secured means nothing if we do not actually have them. Promises of 40 million vaccinated by the end of the year mean nothing if we cannot physically do it. You have just announced to much fanfare and clapping from your benches that we will be receiving 325 000 Pfizer shots a week for the rest


of the month. If you do the calculations, you will see that we need to do it every two days for the rest of the year to reach your own 40 million target. Now, consider that the sum total of the last four months has only been 340 000, do you see the maths issue here, Mr President? Do you see why we cannot believe you when you tell us the things that you have just said? Perhaps the big question is: Do you really care, because you are so caught up with the internal battles in the ANC while this pandemic ranges across South Africa. You said you did not want to be seen as a weak President, you then said you do not want to split the ANC. Well, you have done both very successfully. Well done on that. You are busy waging a factional war while a third wave looms in South Africa. We are now in May, and your ANC government clapping on the benches here has not administered a single dose. The 800 000 has been done by the Sisonke Project. There are still many health care workers who remain not vaccinated. Before you bang on about vaccine imperialism again, let me tell you that South Africa’s current ranking for vaccines administered is 33. It is 33rd not in the world but 33rd in Africa, behind Sierra Leone, Sudan, Somalia and Zambia. South Africans want to know when are they getting vaccinated, and you have failed them.


My question is, Mr President: Given that you have now imperiled the lives of 800 000 health care workers and millions of vulnerable citizens as we head into winter and a third wave, will you take responsibility for the lives lost due to this failure? If not, Mr President, then you should take responsibility. [Applause.]



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Having put that aside, let me say the following to you, we are not the only country that has been short-changed, if you like, when it comes to vaccines. We stored a lot of reliance on Johnson & Johnson because it is made here. The mishaps that we have suffers have been completely out of our hands. The deaths of six people in the United States that got our own authority to say stop the vaccination process was completely unforeseen. There are some people who say, well, we should have just gone ahead. It didn’t really matter. But we’ve tended to listen to our experts and our scientists and took advice from them. You possibly would have wanted us to act like cowboys and just do whatever we could have concluded ourselves. We are not oriented in that way. We listen to our experts and it was due to that delay that emanated from the United States, but our experts here felt our authority that we should stop and pause. We knew we were not pausing for a long time.


Just as our own delivery was meant to come through, the Food and Drug Administration, FDA, in the United States identified the flaw in one of the facilities that is a partner to Johnson & Johnson and they stopped that. Now, that also stopped our own delivery from our own South African base in Gqeberha at the Aspen factory. We were meant to get our own batches so that we carry on. We have lost time, we know that. Do we care? Of course we care. What have we been doing since this pandemic started? You have not been in control and then in running this whole project of protecting and defending the people of South Africa, but we have been. We have been in the trenches and doing precisely the task of defending and protecting our people. It’s very easy for you to say we are number this number or that. We have had our own, both objective and subjective challenges, and we are addressing them and now the process is going to unfold.



The Sisonke process is part of our national project. It is not a DA project, but a national project. We are all involved in it. So we are proceeding with all that, and proceeding with the vaccination of our people. You may wish us ill, but there are many people in our country who wish us well. We are here to protect lives of South Africans, and that is what has been


my key preoccupation as the President of the Republic of SA. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]



Dr K L JACOBS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Mr President, our government subscribe to providing the best options for all the people of South Africa, especially with regard to the threats posed by COVID-19. We have heard it numerous times that options and decisions taken by government are informed by the latest applicable and peer-reviewed sciences, and you have just reiterated that here, Mr President. Let us thank you very much for finalizing the contracts with vaccine manufacturers. A total of 52,6 million doses.



Having heard what hon Steenhuisen said here, I can understand or get to realize that he just cannot comprehend the medical sciences involved here and the complexities. ...

[Interjections.] ... Thank you for forging ahead, Mr President. Now, can you please put us at ease on the ability of government to roll out this vaccination programme. Thank you. [Applause.]



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, thank you for your sentiments and remarks, and also the acknowledgement that we have always relied on science and work


on peer-reviewed processes. With regard to putting everybody at ease in relation to the roll-out.



Working together with our partners, the private sector, religious sector, labour sector, the business sector and many other sectors, have crafted and developed a very effective vaccination programme that is now going to unfold as these batches of doses become available. The plan is in place, the centres are in place, the people are being trained, the transportation has been put in place to transport all these doses at the right temperatures. The logistics have been clearly worked out. We have been working very closely with the private sector and the medical aid schemes are part of this process.



We did say right at the beginning that we are embarking on an unprecedented process that this country has never seen. Rather than have people throw stones at those who are involved, rather than the structures from what we need to do, we said, let us see this as a national effort, let us all get involved. Others choose to sit on them sideways and throw stones at those who are involved in this process. I continue to invite all South Africans. We have never done this before, to have a vaccination process that is going to involve millions and


millions of our people, more or less all at one go, even if it takes a number of months. We need to work together.



I can assure South Africans that the programme is in place. Vaccines are going to be made available. We are storing a lot of hope and confidence in the availability of these vaccines as they come on a periodic basis and made available that we are going to be able to implement our vaccination programme. It is a robust one and it is going to reach into the real heart of our country in the rural areas, urban areas and all over. That is going to happen.



The delays have had very little to do with our own ineptitude that had more to do with objective reasons that I have alluded to. So the vaccinations process will get underway. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thanks Deputy Speaker, you know these vaccination plan of the President, like many of his many promises and plans, does not make any sense, it doesn’t because in our estimation, you will need a minimum of

R50 billion to vaccinate 67% of the population, which is the head immunity. The National Treasury has only allocated

R4,3 billion for this financial year to vaccinate the entire


South Africa, and that includes the purchase and the delivery of vaccinations, storage, the administering, the buying of syringes and so on and so forth. You are saying that you are going to vaccinate 41 million South Africans when you have only allocated R4,3 billion. You cannot tell us about the contingency budget because a contingency budget is allocated to things that are unforeseen. We have known for more than 12 months now that there is a pandemic that requires intervention. Why is there no budget that is allocated to the rollout of the vaccination programme? You are just throwing numbers without a clear context. How are you going to finance because it’s only R4,3 billion that has been allocated thus far?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please look at your watch when you speak. No, you know the time you are allocated ...



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please, stick to your time allocated.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: When we finish with this process, you must go and check the times that you gave to the Leader of the Opposition to ask the question and the time that you gave us.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I don’t give anybody time ...





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It looks like you are impatient to us when we are asking relevant questions.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I don’t give anybody time. No ...





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please be patient with us. We are asking questions that are going to guide the ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no. You are out of order. Hon member, you are out of order. Firstly, this time is not given by me. All I do ... You have been given this time, you have no authority to exceed the allocated time by 25 seconds, for example, this is out of order, you have no basis to object to that. You should stick to your time and I am not going to please anybody by not doing so. That is very clear. It should stay clear with you.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you, the simple answer I can give to hon Shivambu is that, when it comes to securing the health of our people by providing


vaccines, the South African government is going to make sure that we pull out all stops and we provide the finance to do precisely that. If it will be necessary for the Minister of Finance to come back to Parliament for other supplementary budget or to come forward in October for Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, that will happen. We are not ever going to sacrifice the health of South Africans in relation to this pandemic. We have never done so in the past. We were able to face the HIV pandemic, and embarked on a process of mobilizing resources so that we can save the lives of our people. By and large, we have succeeded in doing precisely that with the provision antiretroviral tablets, which we now provide to millions of South Africans.



Similarly, with this pandemic, money and financial resources are never going to be the issue. We are going to save the lives of South Africans. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Mr P A VAN STADEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, Mr President, regarding the vaccine rollout plan, where targets were kept moving and changing since the announcement over first rollout plan in February, this year, and the announcement of a new rollout plan by the Minister of Health on 30 March, this year, where the new targets were set again with different numbers of


people to be vaccinated by the end of a year, and the constant changing of this programme, can the hon President, today, please give the correct information regarding the rollout plan and what the targets are from the total number of people to be vaccinated by the end of this year? What guarantee can the hon President give to South Africans today that the current rollout plan will not change again too disregard confusion and not only amongst health care workers but also amongst South Africans? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We did say that we want to achieve population immunity. And yes, the scientists have arrived at the number that will constitute population immunity, which is some 40 million South Africans or so. I would prefer that we go even beyond that. That is going to depend obviously on the pace of the rollout plan as well as the availability of those vaccines. I do not believe that it is going to change on an ongoing basis. However, if it does need to change, there will be very good reasons for it to change and we will make sure that information is communicated in a way that it is not confusing to anyone.



The vaccinations programme will be getting underway. Well, it is already underway, and it will gather momentum as we move on


so as to be able to give South Africans certainty about the way it will work out. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



Question 3:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you Deputy Speaker. The first goal of our vaccination programme is to ensure that we rapidly reduce the number of people who get very sick or who die from COVID-19. The second goal, as I said earlier, is to achieve population immunity. It is estimated that population immunity will be achieved when around 67% of the country’s population has been ... achieved, which as I said earlier, has been estimated to be around 40 million people.



To achieve the first goal of preventing as much COVID-19- related disease, hospitalisation and deaths as rapidly as possible, the national vaccination programme will prioritise those at greatest risk. The evidence shows that age is the single factor most strongly associated with the severity of the COVID-19 disease, and therefore phase 2 of the vaccination programme will target all people who are over 60 years of age. At the same time, it will also target people of 40 years and older in vulnerable settings, such as frontline workers. Phase

3 of the vaccination programme will then target the rest of the adult population.


The selection of vaccines for use in South Africa requires, amongst other things, that they be approved by the SA Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, as being effective against the dominant strains of SARS-CoV-2 in the country.

Currently, the Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson vaccines have been registered by SAHPRA, and, as indicated in my earlier reply, these vaccines have been selected for procurement. The prices that government has contracted to pay for the vaccines are US$10 per dose for Johnson & Johnson and the same for the Pfizer dose.



A wide range of vaccination sites have been identified. These include, amongst others, primary health care clinics, community pharmacies, general practitioner centres, public and private hospitals and travel clinics. Vaccinations will also be done by mobile teams at mass vaccination sites that are going to be set up and are being set up at conference centres and other facilities, and in some workplaces such as government departments, mines and factories. We have been very fortunate that a number of employers have said that they are also prepared to pay for the setting up of these centres in their own facilities or premises. All vaccination sites must meet certain legislative requirements and go through an


accreditation process. By the end of April, the Department of Health had enrolled 3,357 accredited vaccination sites.



A comprehensive logistics as well as a supply chain plan is in place. This includes all supply chain preparations and activities from when the vaccine arrives in the country until it is made available for vaccination at each vaccination site. A critical part of this is an effective cold chain to maintain the safety as well as the efficacy of the vaccine, to match demand with supply and enable the tracing and tracking of vaccines.



The Electronic Vaccination Data System or what we call the EVDS, is the backbone of our vaccination programme because it provides end-to-end solutions that are used to digitally capture each event in the vaccination process and provides data to monitor all vaccinations that are administered. This we also learnt from the manufacturers. I went to the manufacturing factory in Gqeberha and saw how they calibrate the vaccine doses. Each vial has a number. Each vial is clearly identified and they will know where each dose or vial has ended up. ... highly digitised and we are seeking to do something that’s similar with our vaccination programme.


Every person to be vaccinated will need to register and will receive details of the date and timeslot for vaccination. For many South Africans who do not have access to the internet, both digital and walk-in systems will be used for registration. Callers may also register on a toll-free helpline. Provision has been made for the alternative capturing of a unique identifier for individuals who do not have an identity document.



The magnitude of the COVID-19 vaccination programme requires dedicated staff at national, provincial and district levels. Based on the experience of phase 1, staffing requirements and norms for vaccination sites have been estimated to guide planning, budgeting and recruitment. These norms may vary, depending on the specifics of each particular site. Government itself is committed to ensuring that every person 18 years and older will be able to be assisted in this regard. The costs will be covered from public funds for uninsured people and medical aids for those who are insured, as part of the prescribed minimum benefits.



This will be the first time in South Africa’s history that a national vaccination programme aimed at adults will be rolled out. It is an enormous undertaking that will require the


support and co-operation from all parts of society. A comprehensive plan is in place, resources have been mobilised and a steady supply of vaccines have been procured, so that every adult should have the opportunity to go through this process. I thank you.



Question 3: (cont)


Mr J S MALEMA: Mr President, I know, that this matter was raised with you earlier and I am told that the Deputy Speaker didn’t allow me. It is in your own wisdom, if you want to.

Because, sending them here ... I’m confused ... if they are legitimate in Parliament. It seems your membership of your party which lands you a seat in Parliament has been suspended. Anything else that you do now even when you know you are no longer a member of your party will amount to fraudulent activities.



Nevertheless, Mr President, I don't understand whether you guys are involved in transactions or in saving lives. Because, Sputnik and Sinovac have been proven to work and have been subjected to peer reviews. Many countries are now using Sputnik, but you are hell-bent on feeding us Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson.


For what reason I don’t know? The only reason we can suspect is that you are a shrewd businessman who might be prioritising money over the lives of our people.



I plead with your conscience: please do the right thing. Let us save lives.



Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order.



Mr J S MALEMA: Leave transactions. It is not a time for transactions now. Put your money-loving attitude aside to save lives.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please hold on. There is a point of order. What is the point of order, hon member?



Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am rising on Rule 85. The person who was speaking before has cast aspersions on the character of the President by saying that he is making deals for his own self-interest. Such a point must be dealt with through a substantive motion. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, that remark as referred to ... You know, it is out of order, right?


Mr J S MALEMA: No, the President will decide to answer that or not.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. Hon Malema, this is a matter for ... [Interjections.]



Mr J S MALEMA: ... [Inaudible.] ... transactions now.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me speak.



Mr J S MALEMA: Are you here to defend lives or do you want to defend transactions now?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, there’s ... [Interjections.]



Mr J S MALEMA: I’m asking a simple question! I’m asking a question, whether they are involved in transactions or in programmes of saving lives?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, a presiding officer is asking is you to withdraw a statement that casts aspersion, according to Rule 85. Could you do that please, and then proceed.



Mr J S MALEMA: What is the statement saying?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon ... [Interjections.]



Mr J S MALEMA: It’s not a statement, Deputy Speaker, it is a





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member who rose ... Whether it is disguised as a question or as a statement, it is out of order when you imply that the President might be involved in things that are not legal. So, if you don’t address such an issue by way of a substantive motion, it is not appropriate to even insinuate it. Please withdraw it, please.



An HON MEMBER: On a point of order.



Mr J S MALEMA: Okay, I’m withdrawing the word “transaction”. I’m withdrawing it.






Mr J S MALEMA: No, I’m still asking! I’m still asking!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you asking?


Mr J S MALEMA: It’s my turn! The President wants to know whether he can answer. It is still my time! Why are you treating me like I’m a stepchild? What’s your problem?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you behave, for once? Please ... [Inaudible.]



Mr J S MALEMA: Not for once have I been misbehaving. You are an older man that always misbehaves in this Parliament.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: In the first place, your time is here, and you will speak ... [Inaudible.] ...



Mr J S MALEMA: It’s not true! You stopped me because someone


rose on a point of order!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, and ... [Inaudible.] ...



Mr J S MALEMA: ... [Inaudible.] ... can’t take you anywhere!





Mr J S MALEMA: You guys are involved in transactions. You are stealing money from our people. You are compromising ... [Interjections.] ... [Inaudible.] ...



Ms P T MPUSHE: Anger management is needed here.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Sello Malema ... [Interjections.] Hon Sello Malema ...





Ako mamele o tataiswe ka Ntlong ena. Ha se hahao mona.



Ngaka M Q NDLOZI: Wena Lechesa o dula o tjhesa!





Why don’t you cool down, Lechesa. You are perpetually ... [Interjections.]





MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Ke kopa le tlohele ho bapala. Ka kopo hle!





Hon members ... [Inaudible.] ... you are being disruptive of your own members now!



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Why don’t you cool down, Lechesa. You are


perpetually hot. [Interjections.]



Mr J S MALEMA: This thing of all of you being heated up every time when the President comes here and you defend him when the majority of our people are dying is a problem. It must come to an end!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a disruption around here; we can’t hear you properly. I’m trying to protect you, so that you can proceed.



Mr J S MALEMA: No. I am disrupted by the President! The President disrupted me!





MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: [Laughter.] Ha o laolehe mora Malema. Ke kopa o laolehe o tsebe ho bua. Ke a o kopa.



Mr J S MALEMA: All right.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just calm down!



Mr J S MALEMA: I’m with you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, can you be in order and proceed? These remarks that you are making here will be followed up. Proceed and ask your question, and don’t make allegations about the Chair that are unfounded, out of order and inappropriate.



Mr J S MALEMA: It is the job of parliamentarians to ask the executive questions, even uncomfortable questions.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Uncomfortable, yes, but not in disregard of the Rules.



Mr J S MALEMA: The President does not have the interest of our people at heart because all of these other vaccines that are working, he could have by now procured them and made sure that they are distributed in South Africa.



Why is Sapra taking forever to approve an emergency use of Sinovac and Sputnik. What plans are there to include the private sector to make sure that we vaccinate as many people


as possible because we know that the ANC-led government has no capacity to vaccinate as many people as possible.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.



Mr J S MALEMA: So, those are my questions, Deputy Speaker, including the question on transactions. Do they want money or do they want to save lives?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you be in order? We will follow up these things you are saying there from the virtual platform.



Hon President, please proceed.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. I thought that hon Malema had concluded his question. That is why I asked you whether I should answer. I am sorry that he took offence at my enquiry, which was directed at you.



We are not in the business of making transactions over the lives of our people. We enter into transactions to purchase and acquire vaccines to save the lives of our people. We do not enter into transactions to advance our own interests,


either as individuals or as any other entity. I just want to make that very clear to hon Malema.



On the issue of other vaccines ... there are a number of other vaccines that are in the process of being assessed. As you yourself correctly said, hon Malema, you know that Sapra – our health products authority – is in the process of assessing a number of vaccines. Sputnik is included, and Sinopharm is included.



As we have often said, we are involved in discussions and negotiations with a number of vaccine manufacturers or developers, including those two. We have taken care to make sure that those vaccines that have been developed in our fellow Brics countries are vaccines that we should also focus attention on. I know for a fact that those two countries have taken some time to develop various relationships because relationships have to be developed and partners cultivated and so forth. Thereafter, the product can be presented for testing and assessment by Sapra. That is in the process.



I am not able to answer for Sapra as I do not know the full details of the scientific processes that they get involved in, but I do know they take their work very seriously and they are


also aware of the urgency of this moment that confronts us all. That urgency also underpins the way they do their work. So I know they will do their best for the people of South Africa. [Interjections.]



We do not play games with the lives of our people. From the onset of this pandemic, all that we have been focused on is how best we can save the lives of our people. Some of us don’t sleep much, hon Malema, because we are continuously concerned, worried and agonising about the lives of South Africans, and how best we can secure the lives of the people of South Africa. It is a task or, indeed, a burden that you may take lightly, but some of us take it very seriously. And we will not play games with the lives of South Africans. Thank you.



Mr J S MALEMA: He did not answer my question about our operation with the private sector because of the incapacity of the state.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I thought that that had been covered in the earlier answer in which I said that the development of our roll-out plan enjoyed the participation of all our stakeholders. The private sector has been a key participant.


You may be interested to know that, almost on a daily basis, meetings are held in one shape or form or another, starting off with the Deputy President leading the interministerial committee that deals with vaccines. At a departmental level the same obtains, as well as at the NCCC, where we get reports. But, more importantly, in relation just to the vaccine programme, there is a team that is just completely focused on the programme and it includes private sector participants.



It is interesting to hear hon Malema seeking to know about the participation of the private sector. They are at the heart of this. So is labour, as are other sectors of our society. This is one thing that we can be proud of, just like we should be proud of Nedlac. In this case, it is an implementation arm of our programme, where all are involved in the way that I have identified or set out: the private sector, the churches or the religious sector, community-based organisations, labour and many others, our scientists and experts ... we are all part of this.



So when it comes to the robustness of the team that is overseeing the implementation of the programme, I do not have


sleepless nights. I know that it is in good hands and we have the best minds involved in all of this. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Mr President. Just a word before I give hon Ndlovu a chance. Hon members, every time presiding officers begin the House, they start with reading movements of members – new members are announced, including in whose office they affirmed or took an oath. If we don’t mention anybody, please don’t smuggle movements that do not exist. With the greatest of respect. This is the requirement, that you must formally let us know that there is movement. If you don’t, we assume that it doesn’t exist. So no one else can claim that it exists. This is important. The Rules that have been formulated here are not for me or for any individual person; they are for the entire House. So, let’s play by the House Rules. As Whips we know this has been approved and agreed to, given your understanding of the allocation of time. You can’t come and turn the House into a bargaining council! Speak to hon Nxesi if you want some tips on how to do that! [Laughter.] Kindly save the House the time it needs to deal with substantive issues during the sittings.



And kindly mind your language. Hon members, we take exception to crude, out-of-order language that is rude and


unparliamentary and has frequently been declared as such. We cannot be repeating those rulings every time the House sits. I am pleading with you to accept that that kind of language is not appropriate.



The next ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the point of order?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You are just waffling now. What are you saying? [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat!



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you are waffling now ... [Inaudible.] ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no ... [Inaudible.] ...





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Uyadelela, lungu elihloniphekile Shivambu.





Tat N F SHIVAMBU: A ndzi deleli ...





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Okokuqala nje ...





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ...I am asking you a question! You are waffling! What are you saying?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat! If you don’t


understand or did not hear, take your seat.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you must stop waffling as well because you must ... [Inaudible.] ... You are wasting our time!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are saying that I’m


waffling. Alright. Now listen here ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You are wasting our time!





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela ukuthi uyekele ukudelela.





An HON MEMBER: That’s unparliamentary!



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You can’t speak to me like that!





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Don’t speak to me like that. Don’t use that


language with me!





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.





No, no, no! You are out of order!





Tat N F SHIVAMBU: Na wena wa delela, “then”.





Ms N P MAHLO: Wena Shivambu, you are out of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member!




Tat N F SHIVAMBU: Na wena wa delela, “then”.





DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...





... ngicela uhlale phansi.





Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, but how can you say “delela” ...







USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.





AN HON MEMBER: Hon Shivambu, you are out of order!



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... [Inaudible.] ... to use that language ... Who gives you the right to use that language?





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.




AN HON MEMBER: Hon Shivambu, it is unparliamentary what you are saying.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... [Inaudible.] ... muting you now, because you are out of order.



Mr X NQOLA: Deputy Speaker!



Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker! [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who’s that?



Mr J S MALEMA: It’s me, Julius, here.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who’s speaking?



Mr J S MALEMA: Julius!



Mr X NQOLA: Nqola!





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Kwezejani manje. Uthini manje, ilungu elihloniphekileyo Malema?


Mr J S MALEMA: He’s asking, on which item are you. He’s asking that. It’s as simple as that. Parliament works according to an agenda. There is an adopted agenda. Now you can’t just speak. We don’t hear what you are saying. [Interjections.]





Rre P M P MODISE: Ako eme gole gonnye wena. O a sokodisa.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright! Hon member, take your seat, too. We have heard you. If you have missed the agenda we were on, it is unfortunate. I am not going back there. [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are proceeding to the item on the agenda, and I am going to request hon Dlomo to ask the second supplementary. [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker ...



Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, please.





O seke wa bolela fela re sa tsebe gore o bolela ka eng.




That’s what this hon member is asking ... [Inaudible.]





Mr S M KULA: Hayi, Julius, keep quiet! [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: On a point of order. [Interjections.]



Mr S M KULA: Keep quiet, man! You’re not running this


Parliament! [Interjections.]





MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Ke kopa le kgaohane le ntho ena eo le etsang; ka kopo.





Can you just be quiet?



An HON MEMBER: Order! Order, Deputy Speaker.





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela niyeke lento eniyenzayo.





Se ke le kopa jwale.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, ma’am?



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, is “delela” parliamentary? I


just want to understand.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, it is parliamentary.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Alright.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: When you break the Rule ... when you break the Rule ... [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: So, I can say to you that “uyadelela”?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, ...





... ngicela uhlale phansi. Okokuqala nje, ...





... when you break the Rules ... when you break the Rules, you must expect that it is not going to be appropriate when you do that, okay?





Ke kopa hore o se ke wa e etsa eo.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: But what if the Rule ... [Inaudible.] ... are broken?



An HON MEMBER: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.



Mr J S MALEMA: And what if the presiding officer is breaking the Rules?



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I’ve been recognised. Can the microphone be


switched on?





Rre M P MODISE: Kana o ka tloga o re roga wena.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon members, I’ll give one ... two ... [Interjections.] What is the point of order?


Mr X NQOLA: And me.



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are raising a point of order here to say that there is an agenda of Questions to the President. It’s only one item on the agenda of today’s sitting. And in the middle you stand there “u hi delela” [you disrespect us] and then you waffle. That is what you did. And we are asking you why do you do that. Why “u delela Palamente?” [Why do you disrespect Parliament?]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Hon Shivambu. [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: That is not part of the agenda. Why are you doing that?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Where in the parliamentary agenda today does it say that you are going to waffle here and speak about things that are not part of the agenda.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu! [Interjections.]



Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Why are you doing that?




MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Mohlomphehi Shivambu, ke kopa hore o dule fatshe.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: But listen to hon Shivambu.





Lechesa, a ko mamele.






Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.



Mr A H M PAPO: We have hybrid Rules. He opened the mic several times without being recognised.






Mr A H M PAPO: Deputy Speaker, may you please take action on that because it is a complete violation of the hybrid Rules to open your mic and speak without being recognised.





Dr M Q NDLOZI: But he must listen. He has to listen as a presiding officer ... [Interjections.]



Mr A H M PAPO: There, again! He has just done it! It’s for the


third time now.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, you are breaking this Rule for the third time. You are unrepentant on this matter. You know it is the breaking of the Rules.



Hon Radebe?



Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I rise on Rule 78.3, which states that no member of Parliament must undermine the authority of the presiding officer. I think what has happened now is precisely that. You are given the authority to chair the House. No one must try to tell you how to do the job.



Number two, Deputy Speaker, once you have made a ruling, the members know where to take the matter if they are uncomfortable with the ruling – to the Rules Committee. Thank you, Chair.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your point of order is sustained and it will be followed up with a formal ruling and action.



Hon members, I requested hon Dlomo to ask the next supplementary question. It is the second question.





Dkt S M DHLOMO: Mongameli wethu kulohlelo lwethu olunzulu [comprehensive plan] kungabe kukhona yini into ethi uhulumeni wethu usuqalile ukugxila ekukhiqizeni kwemithi nemijovo lapha ekhaya? Siyakwamukela siyalujabulela uhlelo lokugonywa oluqhubekayo njengamanje, kodwa Mongameli eminingi yalemithi nemijovo esinayo silindele ibhanoyi noma umkhumbi ophuma kwamanye amazwe ukuletha le mijovo la ekhaya.



Kanti ke Mongameli enkulumeni yakho yesizwe eyedlule, wake wasixoxela ukuthi uqgoke isudu eyenziwa lapha eNingizimu Afrika, okuyinto esiyijabulelayo kakhulu leyo ngoba kuqinisa umnotho, ukuqashwa kwabantu ekhaya nokwehlisa ukweswela.

Mongameli zimi kanjani izinhlelo zikahulumeni wethu zokusungula imboni eyakha imithi nemijovo lapha eNingizimu Afrika ukuze kusizakale abantu bethu nezilwane zethu esizifuyile? Singaloli umkhonto Mongameli uze uphelele etsheni.




I just want to say in closing, it is important that parties that are well-represented here must listen to their members who serve on the Portfolio Committee for Health. Just yesterday we heard Sapra making a presentation, and the ignorance that is coming out of this meeting is actually very concerning. Thank you.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker ... hon Dlomo,







 ... empeleni ukuthi siyiNingizimu Afrika sizimisele futhi sifuna ukuthi imithi nemijovo eminingi evikela izimpilo zabantu yenziwe lapha ekhaya. Amanye amazwe aseyitholile indlela yokuzenzela imithi nemijovo ngokwawo. INdiya elinye izwe elenza njalo namanye.



Lapha e-Afrika yithi kuphela okwamanje esikwazi ukuthi sibe nendlela yokuthi sikwazi ukukhiqiza imijovo kodwa kusasele nje isikhungo sethu se-Biovac sikwazi ukuthi senze imijovo. Sifuna ukuthi umthamo wesikhungo sethu i-biovac ukhule uma uhlangana nezimboni ezizimele nohulumeni ukuthi sithuthukise imijovo yethu. Ngithe kuNgqongqoshe uNzimande njengoba ehambisa uhlelo


lwezesayensi nobuchwepheshe sike sicele ososayensi bethu, bake balubuke kahle lolu daba lokukhiqiza imijovo la ekhaya.

Namanje luqalile lolu hlelo lokukhiqiza ukuthi ososayensi bethu bazame ukuthola indlela yokuthi sisungule imijovo. Ngoba kunezindlela ezimbili, eyokuqala ...





... is the developer, and the second one is the manufacturer. We have developed the capability to manufacture vaccines.

Biovac... [Inaudible.] ... as well as Aspen and a number of others. They are able, when given the formula, to manufacture vaccines.



What we need is to develop our own vaccines. And this is where our scientists, our medical experts come in.



Already we develop our own animal vaccines. The animals that we have in our country are vaccinated from time to time against a variety of diseases. Many of those vaccines are manufactured here. We do not even need to leapfrog; we just need to move to the second level. With Agreement of Trade- Related Intellectual Property Rights, TRIPS, waiver now being negotiated with the World Trade Organisation, WTO, we are


going to be able, yes, to manufacture in a big way, but it is the development side.



Now, when it comes to the development side of vaccines ... We held a meeting the other day. As you know, South Africa has been identified as a champion of COVID-19. We held a meeting where we spoke about the notions that Africa should develop its own capacity to conceptualise and develop vaccines. We are busy with that. We have seen it as a major challenge.



We first saw it, if I may say so, with the PPEs. The development and manufacturing of PPEs was largely outside of our continent. Within a short space of time, we saw a number of African-based companies and entities beginning to develop and manufacture their own PPEs - from ventilators right through to cloth masks and so forth.



So, the capability resides on our continent. All that it needed is there should be a necessity. And, as they say in the classics, necessity is the mother of invention. That’s where we are being led to. That’s exactly the direction we are going.


Many leaders on the continent are now united in saying, Africa must develop its own capacity to develop vaccines. And South Africa is taking that very seriously. Government is going to lead in this and work with the private sector to make sure ...





...ukuthi yonke le mijovo kulobhubhane esikuwo manje nakobhubhane abazolandela ukuthi yenziwe la eNingizimu Afrika.





And for us it is a security matter. We have seen how the lack of vaccines that we make ourselves has posed a real serious security ... [Inaudible.] ... challenge, which has sovereign implications, because we wait for others outside of our own borders to make vaccines available. So we are at their mercy. Now we are saying we need to be doing it ourselves. The message is spreading, the noise is growing and the capability will soon reside in Africa. Thank you.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, history shows us that the only people who should be worried about angry young men are out-of-touch old men. I am very happy to give you the recipe for the lunch time because, maybe if you had a bit more


fire in your belly, the country will not be in the trouble that it is in at the moment!



I am sure you are watching what is happening India with some concern – although you are lucky enough to have been vaccinated! The only way we can prevent that from happening here in South Africa is through a widespread vaccination programme.



Yes, people in South Africa are angry. They are angry because your government has failed so spectacularly to roll out a vaccination programme in South Africa. Many countries around the world and on the continent have nearly finished their programmes or are very well into them. We have yet to put a single government jab into a single arm in South Africa. So much for science, Dr Jacobs! We are so far behind the rest of the world, I don’t know what science you studied, but it clearly wasn’t worth it!



Mr President, what preparations have you made in terms of vaccine procurement, and to combat new surges in transmission, particularly the threat of the new Indian variant?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, the variant that is being experienced in India is most worrying. It is most worrying because it is engulfing the entire country. At the same time, some people from that country who travelled around the world were found to have contracted the disease. Obviously, we are watching this.



But we are not only watching; we are taking steps to ensure that, one, we are getting prepared. The National Coronavirus Command Council was meant to meet yesterday. We said, let us meet when we have all the information and when we have all the processes that we can immediately embark on. And so that is in process.



In this regard, you will be pleased to know that we rely on our scientists’ knowledge, and on our medical advisory committee that guides our process of dealing with the virus. So all that is being looked at most closely.



We are concerned, but we are also concerned for the Indians. It is for that reason that we have pledged our solidarity with them and we are seeking to give them as much assistance as we possibly can. We will soon be forwarding some assistance to


them, because they need help. We are pleased to know that they are getting help from number of countries around the world.



We will also be assisting them with ventilators. We will also be assisting them with PPEs, and in pledging our solidarity with them.



What we do this because it is the right thing to do.



At the same time, we are studying ... Our scientists are in the process of studying the variant that is infecting them, so that we can understand it more fully and how it mutates. So, all that is being done. So, we are not sleeping on the job. We are not since resting on our laurels. We have not buried our heads in the sand. We are busy right in the ring dealing with this matter on an ongoing basis. Thank you.



Mr M HLENGWA: Mr President, notwithstanding the importance of international solidarity to which you have alluded insofar as India is concerned, and of course, at the same time, the interventions of assistance that you have spoken to are most welcome ...


Mr President, the flip side of the coin is that a mutation of this virus ...    and it is true that there are many variants that we have, South Africa having experienced its own ... it has a direct impact on the efficacy of the vaccines that are currently available around the world. So a lack of speed and urgency puts people at risk.



In the country ... We have the lockdown. But we are yet to hear what decisive steps are being taken to ensure the ... [Inaudible.] ... of the movement of people between South Africa and India.



Therefore, the question becomes, how are you going to protect South Africans from this variant if you do not have a travel ban on India, while South Africa, which has its own variant, finds itself on travel bans around the world? So the support you give to India must be reciprocated by government in that case. When will government impose a travel ban on India? I thank you.





USEKELA SOMLOMO: Mhlonishwa Hlengwa nawe weqa isikhathi osinikeziwe. Ngicela nibheke amawashi.


Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyaxolisa baba.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Hlengwa, thank you very much for your question, because your question revolves around precisely what the National Coronavirus Command Council is currently seized with.



We are looking more closely, scientifically, at what this variant from India is all about. But we are also looking at how we should respond. Our response could also include precisely what you have said.



A number of people have actually been saying, impose a ban, impose a ban! We are in the process of examining the whole process and the efficacy of doing so.



We pride ourselves on taking decisions based on science. Obviously, right now, there are no direct flights between ourselves from India. That helps a bit.



But, at the same time, we do now need to address the issue. It will be addressed in just days when, from a medical advisory committee point of view – an entity which we call ... [Inaudible.] ... in government, which combines all our


executing arms or institutions – will come forward. The question is posed to them and that is now going to be brought forward to us as an answer. So we proceed a question and we are going to be addressing precisely that I thank you very much for what you said. Thank you.



Question 4:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, the conflict in the Cabo Delgado province has caused great death, and it has also caused suffering and trauma to the people in that area.

It has not only damaged the local economy but also threatens the stability in the broader region. It is therefore vital that the countries of the Southern African region and indeed the African continent assist in both ending the conflict and also addressing the social, economic and political factors fuelling the violence.



The chairperson of the African Union Commission, Mr Moussa Faki Mahamat, has stated the AU’s strong condemnation of these terrorist attacks. An Extraordinary Double Troika Summit of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, was held in Maputo on 8 April 2021 to address the security situation in Mozambique. The summit directed the technical assessment by the SADC of the situation in the affected area should be


conducted within a week, and that a report should be submitted to the next Extraordinary SADC Organ Troika Summit so that the summit is then able to deliberate on a proportional regional response. The summit, which was scheduled for 29 April 2021, had to be postponed, and a new date is yet to be announced.

The international community, and in particular SADC and the African Union, AU, has shown a firm commitment to contribute to the stabilisation of the situation.



The SADC Organ Troika is seized with finding a lasting solution to the conflict and to ensure that in finding a lasting solution we resolve this conflict but also ensure that the Mozambican people are able to live in peace and security and are able to benefit from the natural resources within their country.



And Mozambique has been supported in a number of efforts in dealing with this challenge from a number of countries in the world, and we have been giving them moral support and every support that we possibly can, so that we continue to strengthen them but SADC is now going to examine precisely what steps now needs to be taken going forward. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.


Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker and thanks to the President for the answer he has given, I think that first of all we have to appreciate the work done by the President in particular when he was chairing the AU, by co-ordinating all the heads of state of Africa and ensured that the African governments worked as a pack in fighting the pandemic. I think that, as he responded to the previous questions, I think that appreciation was not lucid, so I think that we appreciate the work ... [Interjections.]






Mr B A RADEBE: ... which you have done Comrade President. Number two ...



Mr A M PAPO: Point of order!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! That is Ndlozi again. Hon Ndlozi ... [Interjections.]



Mr A H M PAPO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think this is a problem.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yeah it is, I agree with you, sir. I agree with you. It is out of order. Yeah! Alright!



Mr A H M PAPO: But you can’t have members remain on the


platform who behave that way.






Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: He was not recognised. He just rose and spoke and you didn’t say anything.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Comrade Hope did not ask to speak, he just stood up and spoke and you did not say anything. Can you call him to order, Deputy Speaker, please?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s a general Rule members, you know that and you must adhere to it all the time irrespective of the circumstances. Yes!



IsiZulu: Uqedile baba?







The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish sir.



Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, when coming to this issue ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you calling me Chairperson?



Mr B A RADEBE: Ah! Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... when coming to the question, I think that there’s the issue of insurgence which is carried out throughout the African continent. They destabilise the development of the African continent. How can we forget what that colonial master Leopold II did in Congo when he cut the limbs of babies to encourage their parents to produce more rubber?



Now, 100 years later in Mozambique children are being beheaded because of the vast Ruby deposits and vast gas reserves which are there. But what is critical here is that not even a single shipment of the gas has been taken out of Mozambique but already investors like Total are already withdrawing from that aspect.


So what I want to ask here is that where is the African central standby force in during this time, because if these insurgencies are not quelled, the issue of the continental free trade agreement is going to be undermined because how can there be trading between African countries when there are fights between those countries. I can make an example, even up to this ... [Time expired.] What are the AU and SADC doing to attract this foreign direct investment? Thank you.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, we as the SADC family of countries, including the AU, continue to want to attract investments to the various countries on our continent, but we in SADC want to attract investors to Southern Africa, and when companies such as Total and others withdraw as a result of the activities of insurgents, it is of great concern to us. And it is for that reason that countries in the SADC we were able to get together through the Double Troika to see how best we can respond to the challenges that Mozambique is going through and the Technical Assessment Team was set up and it has done the assessment, it is now going to report to the heads of state when we next meet.



And the idea and the issue of a standby force has always been a present, and we are going to be looking at precisely what


now needs to be done, based on the assessment team’s report. So what we seek to do is to secure the lives of our people. And the SADC, much as it is happening in Mozambique, we’re interested in making sure that we secure the lives of Mozambicans. But at the same time we want to ensure that there is economic growth in our region, in various countries as well as some in our continent, one of the ways of engendering that is to bring in foreign direct investment as hon Radebe was saying. So we are focused on that, and we continue working at it. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next supplementary question, which is the second, is by the hon Shivambu.



Mr S TAMBO: Deputy Speaker, I will be taking the question on behalf of hon Shivambu, I am hon Sinawo Tambo.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait! Uh-uh! Uh-uh!










No, it is not ... [Interjections.]


Mr S TAMBO: Mr President, in order to achieve its objective of silencing the guns in Africa the AU established the Africa Standby Force purportedly with the ability to be deployed rapidly to crisis ridden areas, stop wars and save lives. Now outside of your suspension from the ANC, who’ve just stepped down as the chairperson of the AU, and during your tenure we have observed rapid proliferation of conflicts in the continent, including the crisis in Mozambique.



Has South Africa played any role in strengthening the African Standby Force? If you have, why is it that the force has been unable to intervene decisively in conflict ridden areas and will you specifically lobby for the deployment of that force to deal with the crisis in Mozambique. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, yes, South Africa continues to act in concert in partnership with various other member states of the AU and we act within the broad parameters that are set out by our AU mother body as it is now, you may well know, that we have deployed our soldiers on the Eastern part of the Congo. They are part of forces that had been there for quite a while, acting together with a


number of other countries like Malawi and Tanzania to secure the Eastern Congo against insurgents.



Now, we never want to be lone actors and act alone on our own volition. We are a country that always wants to act abetted by the urges of our continental bodies and indeed our regional bodies. So in this regard we are in full support of Mozambique. We are in full support of countries that are facing these challenges of insurgents, and we will work with others to silence the guns on our continent. It has been unfortunate indeed, as we reported at the summit when I stepped down that we had not been able to achieve our goal of silencing the guns, much as there has been an improvement of guns of war throughout the continent, but we have not yet succeeded in silencing the guns, and much more work still needs to be done to ensure that the continent is at peace with itself. And in order to engender peace, obviously various countries have to take up the responsibility of making sure that indeed there is peace and when we are called upon to join the standby force, South Africa is always ready to fulfil our own continental and regional obligations but always acting in line with our regional or continental bodies. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.


Mr V ZUNGULA: Deputy Speaker, Mr suspended President, I know our country has a bad character of waiting for things to get out of hand before acting. It was the case with COVID-19; it was the case with listeriosis. Now I want to find out, Mr President, ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]



AN HON MEMBER: Point of order!



Mr X NQOLA: Point of order! Point of order, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker, can I rise on point of order?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry? Who’s rising on a point of order? I


want to know who is speaking. Tell me who you are.



Mr X NQOLA: Mr Nqola here.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Nqola, please go ahead with your point of order.



Mr X NQOLA: Nqola! Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The President of the Republic is elected in terms of the Rules by the National Assembly and the removal of the President is encapsulated in the Constitution. Hon Zungula has just


referred to the President as the suspended President. He is out of order and it must be ruled as such.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, lets agree that the reference to all members including the President when he is in the House. Hon Hope I’m addressing the issue that you are concerned about. Please, can all of you be in order? Hon members, stop talking across the benches whilst the session is on.



Hon members, you know you must address each other appropriately as members as Mr or hon and in the case of the President similarly as well generally when he is in the House. So, hon Zungula, ...





 ... ngikubize kahle? Ngicela ukuthi ungaqambi uMongameli ngamagama angekho. [Ubuwelewele.]





What are you rising on, hon member? What is your point of order?


Mr A H M PAPO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: For any Member of Parliament to cease being a Member of Parliament, representing their party. That party must formally write to the Office of the Speaker, withdrawing that member. There is no letter from the ANC suspending the membership of the president of the ANC.



So this notion that the President has been suspended is a myth. It must be rejected with contempt because there is no National Executive Committee, NEC, decision suspending the President. So I think it’s important to put it into perspective this joke they are trying to make is neither here nor there.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member it is not ... let’s regard it as an inappropriate reference to members of the House, because there is a way in which we have agreed in the Rules to talk to each other. Comment that is out of order is out of order. I actually read to you and told you, as the House, that I or any other Presiding Officer will read from the House, whether you are still with us or not including the President. So anybody else who smuggles things here is out of order. So I request you to stay with that ruling, hon members, all of you in the House. Hon Zungula ...




 ... ngicela uhoxise lento ombize ngayo uMongameli khona uzokwazi ukuqhubeka kahle ngendlela eqondile. Yenza kanjalo baba.



Mnu V ZUNGULA: Ngiyayihoxisa, Sekela Somlomo.



USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngiyabonga ngoba uyayihlonipha leNdlu. Qhubeka-ke.



Mr V ZUNGULA: ... as Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Isis, threatens South Africa against intervening in Mozambique and there were reports of Isis training manuals found in ... [Inaudible.] ... in the Vaal and there is a huge number of undocumented non-South African citizens living in South Africa.



We know the insurgents were pushed from Kenya, from Kenya to Tanzania, from Tanzania to Mozambique. Does this not compound the threat of terror within our borders, and what action is a government taking to deal proactively deal with this threat? Thank you.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you were on the boundary, dangerously.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, the government through its various the institutions and agencies keeps a very close watch on the activities of the insurgents and would-be insurgents, both in our own country and outside of our country. We are watching the situation and constantly doing so to secure the safety of South Africans. In doing so obviously we got to be alert to whatever plans these insurgents or would-be insurgents have.



I would like to assure hon Zungula that we remain seized with this matter through various agencies, and we are just focusing on one issue, one issue only, to secure the lives of South Africans and to ensure that there is stability within our country. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are listening to you, sir. [Interjections.] Mr M G Hendricks?



Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Deputy Speaker, my question, hon President is, why the SADC heads of state permitted private security companies of whom some were former apartheid government


henchmen to enter a regional conflict instead of using the army effectively and meaningfully to deal with the problems created by the conflict. Why do we have a Standby African Force and as a speaker of the House has demanded a Standby African Force led by women. The SADC heads of state have failed to take into consideration the causes of the insurgency in the Cabo Delgado rather than deal with the region’s socioeconomic and political dilemmas.



Al Jama-ah is concerned by the reports labelling the insurgents Islamist and jihadists, which the House Chair of Parliament settled, once and for all that religion must not be associated with violence which is now the editorial policy of our state broadcaster. Hon President, I am sure that you are not going to have a problem with the menu that we are going to share later this afternoon. Thank you very much.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, we continue to work with other countries to address precisely the issues that the hon Hendricks has put across, including the issue of the standby force on our continent which can move rapidly to deal with all these challenges. Various other regions on our continent have been able to co-operate and work together to deal with insurgency and we are doing exactly the same in our


region. And this follows the meeting of the Double Troika and its now going to be held later to take proactive action in this regard. Private security firms have often been employed by various companies that work in the various countries and they have employed them for security purposes. And that is why sometimes you will see the participation, the presence of various private security companies and they are acting at the insistence of the various commercial interests that exist in the various countries.



As for governments we are obviously determined to make sure we root out terrorism of whatever sort, and we ensure that we secure the stability of our various countries and also save the lives of our people and make sure that there a no internally displaced people, as this often insurgencies lead to situations like that.



So we are working on the matter and with a good information base that we get, we are able to take a number of decisions on an ongoing basis. Thank you, Deputy speaker.



Question 5:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The importance of the Port of Durban lies at the very heart of our


economy. It is the country’s largest logistical hub for imports and exports, and it affects almost every aspect of our country’s economic activity. During the last decade, the port has lost its status as the best performing port on the African continent. The Durban Port used to be number one on our continent and needs to be counted as one of the very good ports in the world. We have now descended to number three. In recent years, the port has suffered from long waiting times, inefficient operations and congestions which has affected large parts of the Durban Metro itself.



As you know that I’ve visited the port several weeks ago to ensure that measures are being implemented to improve the port’s efficiency and competitiveness. The new management team of Transnet is working very hard to turn around the port’s performance. The group chief executive officer, Ms Portia Derby, is doing everything she can, together with her wonderful team of young people, to turn the port around. The management has put in place an ambitious plan for the expansion of the port infrastructure that will modernise and transform the port, alongside measures to improve performance and productivity and to reduce congestions in the near term.

Over the next decade, this plan will expand the capacity of the port for container handling from 2,9 million units to more


than 11 million units of cargo. It will position the port as a hub port for the region, the continent and the entire Southern African Hemisphere. These expansion efforts will require greater private sector participation in investment in the port sector well beyond the capacity of Transnet’s own balance sheet.



Partnerships with the private sector are crucial to bring new expertise to port operations and to modernise equipment and infrastructure at the port. Among the plans that are being outlined by Transnet is the advertising of a concession to build and operate the new port terminal by 2021, which will crowd in private sector investment and improve the efficiency of the container handling process. This does not mean the port will be privatised. We should not confuse the concessioning of terminal operations with privatisation of the port. The number of these can be done long programmes such as build, operate and transfer and the public–private partnerships, PPPs.



The Durban Port is and will remain an important national asset belonging to the people of South Africa. Massive new investment in port infrastructure will not only lower costs and improve the competitiveness of our exports, but will, in fact, create thousands of new jobs, both in the port itself


and in the economy as a whole. Therefore, I see a lot of improvements taking place in Durban Port. There is a lot of hope and the management team has responded to a number of challenges that have been raised by the private sector. I left the Durban Port precinct filled with hope that new things are about to happen at that port. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]



Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Mr President, we welcome the public-private partnership in the upgrading of the Durban Port, and we certainly hope that people of South Africa will derive tangible benefits from the project.

However, we believe that when such projects are undertaken the interests of our people and our sovereignty as a nation should come first. We cannot and should not willingly handover our joys to the private sector. And whilst we can engage the private sector for its expertise, we must retain our strategic assets as they belong to the people of South Africa. Now, hon President, one was concerned when one saw media reports after your ... [Inaudible.] ... visit to the Durban Port. And then I saw you ... [Inaudible.] ... some campaigning at the same time in an area.


There is a labour unions that were concerned that they were not consulted properly before these announcements were made. Now, we know that it’s important to have business government private sector and labour to work together in this regard. We know what would happen, for example, when we had Growth, Employment and Redistribution, Gear, that was introduced by your colleague, former President Thabo Mbeki, there was resistance to Gear. Therefore, I would like to know, hon President, what is your position with regard to labour stance in these initiatives? And having said that, hon President, you know there is a very large sector out there which we don’t consult and that’s the unemployed sector. And there are millions of unemployed, particularly youth. How are you ... [Inaudible.] ... we are going to benefit to those sectors? How will they be consulted so that we can deal with the issue of unemployment in our country at a very, very sustainable level, and I also encourage further PPPs in other state-owned enterprises unless, I hope that you can mention some of them

... [Inaudible.] ... like SA Airways, SAA, and others. Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr President.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thank you very much, hon Singh. I’m sorry that when I visited Durban Port I was not able to see you. You would have most


probably wanted to get me to see you campaigning somewhere where you may well be campaigning. However, we will meet next time when I will be in KwaZulu-Natal. Labour will always and correctly so be concerned about the initiatives that their fear could lead to loss of jobs. Therefore, they are right to be concerned about that because they represent their own members. They are right to be concerned about not being consulted, because I do firmly believe that labour should be consulted on the trajectory of companies that they work for, the transformation thereof and the restructuring thereof. They need to be informed, and they should participate and give their own views. That is why I continue to argue that labour should not hold back from sitting on the boards of directors even of companies that they organise workers in, because it gives them a ringside ... [Inaudible.] ... so that they are able not only to listen and observe, but also to participate in decision making.



In this regard, Transnet is looking and resolving the problems of congestion at the port. I believe that this matter has been raised with labour, and labour’s ... [Inaudible.] ... is that we fear that Transnet could be seeking to find a way of privatising report. I would like to say that that is far from truth, the ... [Inaudible.] ... is not privatisation, but the


view is with the private sector in a way where we can crowd the private sector in, and get them to work with us for creating greater value and nobody can be opposed to creating greater value, because it is always good for job creation. It is always good to be in technology and also it is always good to ensure that are greater efficiencies. Now, this obviously is a matter that needs to be discussed at close range with labour. Our objective is to retain our assets and to ensure that we retain our own sovereignty over the assets that we own as a government, and give direction to where we are able to, to make sure that we create an ... [Inaudible.] ... much value as we possibly can.



If through working with the private sector we are able to unleash a great deal of capital from the private sector which we may not have, I would say that it should be done in a way where we’re not selling the assets and where we’re not compromising our own position, but where we co-operate with the private sector on a special basis. And that is why I always argue that it should be a process through which we are able to find a way in which we work with the private sector without people sharing that we are privatising. Some can come in, a strategic equity partners, where we’ll work with them in that regard, that being in finance, that being in technology


and new ways of doing things, and that is been broadly accepted, that we can have a situation where we have strategic equity partners who can work with us to show up and to uplift our state-owned enterprises.



I would argue that we should not be shy and we should not be afraid government should always remain in control of the destiny of our state-owned enterprises. Therefore, there should be no fear about all this, hon Singh. We will always make sure that the family silver is well maintained, but we should open a way of working with the private sector because that’s where the money is, that’s where sometimes the technological advancement resides and if we can find that balance, is a wonderful balance, if we can find it of working together with the private sector. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Mr S H MBUYANE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Mr President, you have made the point about the importance of infrastructure investment to drive economy and transformation. You also spoken previously about the significant development in the export of South African made cars and other manufacturing products, opportunities in the marine as well as in the oil and gas industry. Mr President, in your view, how


will this modernisation of the port help to expand exports in the rest of the African continent, also support the localisation and advance the goal set out in the economic recovery and reconstruction land that you tabled here in October last year? Thank you, President.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. The revamping of Durban Port is really going to be a major boost for our economy as it is now. The port contributes quite significantly the gross domestic product, GDP, of our own country, the GDP of the province and the GDP of the metro. So, it is a massive mighty player in the economic life of our country. Therefore, once it acquires to achieve high levels of efficiency, we will be able to meet the exploits conduit for not only the Southern African Region, but also for our continent. Right now ships go past Durban Port and go to other ports on the continent, and then deliver their goods and the goods that transported by road.



We want Durban Port to regain its glory and its positioning on our continent, because through that the African continental free trade area agreement then becomes much more of a reality, because the Durban Port once it acquires the number one status again becomes a much needed port on the continent. It will be


by choice from a number of exporters and importers. So, it is going to play a critical role, and it is for that reason that we want to unlock its capability and they are going to be a whole number of other lines that will be developed and promoted as the port gets better. So, it will continue to play a huge economic growth in the life of South Africa and, indeed, of our region. One cannot, you know, emphasise more the importance of that port. However, having said that, it is important also to develop and promote other ports in our country, where a country that is well-endowed with a very long coastline, more than many other countries on our continent, but also with a number of ports that serve a number of purposes. For instance, Richards Bay it’s a bulk port for coal and many other commodities.



Not many countries’ ports of having so many ports along our southern coastline, we have got Gqebera, East London, Coega and then the western side in Cape Town. So, we are well- endowed with a number of good ports and up on the western side we have got Saldana. So, we are a country that is well-endowed with good ports and we want to make sure that we revamp all of them. The East London port is needed very much because it’s an auto port as well to export the motor vehicles that are made here. So, great future awaits not only at Durban Port, but


also our various other ports and then with the ports authority and with Transnet increasing its capability. I believe very strongly that the injection into our economy is going to be quite substantial. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, throughout the world the trend of privatisation of ports operations has seen those ports become the most efficient and busiest in the world. South Africa’s ports rank amongst the least efficient, out of the top 70 efficient ports in the world, South Africa does not even make the least. That’s a disaster for our economy and jobs. Now, hon Singh speaks of the fears of the unions. Yes, the ... [Inaudible.] ... was 30% like yours, but it is the fears of companies facing business failure or the fears of their fresh produce, including those emerging farmers in the Eastern Cape, you spoke about, who stocks its ... [Inaudible.] ... at our ports, that should concern you more.



Now, view with the efficiency should be the priority, but the only thing that boost efficiency is competition not only between our ports and other ports, but also internal competition between Durban, Cape Town, Coega and Saldanha. One sure way to do that has to let the DA government ...


[Interjections.] ... the selected provincial DA government take control of the Cape Town Port ... [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, your time has expired.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I was interrupted, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, hon member, your time has expired.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I had to stop because there was somebody talking on the podium.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I spoke to you earlier, you dismissed my advice.






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You did ... [Interjection.] ... no, no, no, I’m not accepting it, your time has expired, Sir, with the greatest of respect.


The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: They should send you to the Zondo Commission you ... [Inaudible.] ... to answering ... [Inaudible.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would be absolutely glad to go there; I have nothing to hide ... [Interjections.] ... yes, hon member.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, while the Leader of the official Opposition was speaking, a member unmuted themselves on the virtual platform. I didn’t see the surname, but the first name was Nancy. She interacted the hon Steenhuisen for a period of nine seconds, I timed it on my phone. I would like that noted, please, and I would like the member who disrupted the proceedings to please be managed for turning on the microphone and wasting the time of the Leader of the official Opposition.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will do that. We will check who it is and so on. However, hon member, your time has expired.

Unfortunately, I said so and I pleaded with you, all of you in the House, including you, hon Steenhuisen. I’m afraid I’m not allowing you. I’m very generous generally. I’m very generous generally. Mr President, a comment was made, please respond.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I heard hon Steenhuisen saying that the privatisation of ports which is happening around the world is serving a number of countries well. That may well be so in a number of years. The one that I admire the most from two countries is the Singapore Port, which is amongst possibly the top three in the world, and is owned by government, and as part of where assets that were owned through the entity that they have, which is called the Massachusetts - that is a most efficient port. I say so advisedly because I have visited that port and have gone into the ... [Inaudible.] ... of its operations just to see how that port operates. And I spent quite a considerable amount of time talking to the Prime Minister, getting to understand how not only how that port works, but how the governance process works in Massachusetts in relation to the port itself. And I also spent quite a bit of time in China talking to a number of people who run some of their ports there and most of them are government-owned.



Therefore, I too travelled to Togo, another country which is


... [Inaudible.] ... its port extremely well. The port is growing by leaps and bounds. They even able to bring in private sector players to help them, yes, revamp their port and reposition it, but it still in government ownership, and


concessionaire if you like, and the government has a wonderful relationship and that is how were brought in the private sector to be continued working to the efficiency of their ports. Mr Steenhuisen would like the Cape Town Port to be handed over to the Democratic Alliance. Mr Steenhuisen, that is not going to happen ... [Applause.] Cape Town Port is part and parcel of our Transnet, the portfolio and it contributes greatly to the economy of our country, and we are proud of that, much as the port is in Cape Town, because we see ourselves as a unity state and these ports will operate to add value to the nation as a whole.



Right now, we are on a journey and a process to revamp our ports, make them a lot more efficient so that they can go back to their glory days ... [Inaudible.] ... and it’s so happening that our ports, Durban Port, for instance, used to be amongst the top, I would say, 15 in the world. And at the same time, Cape Town is also being well-run. Now, we have got management team in Transnet that is improving the efficiencies, and they are monitoring it on a minute by minute basis, and looking at how many minutes it takes just to handle a container, and how quickly are they able to handle containers since they come through. Also, you should know that our ports, various divisions, that, yes, in some ways compete against each other


and they work together. But, as I see it to higher levels of efficiency we find it that they are doing well, and they are going to be doing even a lot better with the new management team that we’ve got at Transnet. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The President, you just said now in your last statement that the Transnet team wants to manage or know how many minutes it takes so that talks directly to efficiency. However, before I get there I want us to demystify the idea that the Durban Port is inefficient. The Durban Port is the second largest and busiest port in Sub-Saharan Africa, that is a fact. Two, for you to make it even more efficient you don’t need to bring the private sector, you need programmes like your Lean Six Sigma programme to streamline their processes. With that programme there will be easy, and it would be easy for them to know how many minutes it takes.



Now, the inefficiency that you should be talking about is of the Minister that you deployed in state-owned entities, SOEs, because with his inefficiency we see the drop in the glory of the then Transnet. Transnet used to be in the top two as you


just said. That is correct, but because of the current Minister ... [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time has expired.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, Deputy Speaker, so my question is, President ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, no, Deputy Speaker, it can’t be.






Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, no.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s 17 seconds, your time has expired.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: President, with your privatisation as it ... are you trying to ... made by International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, Deputy Speaker. So, my question is ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I told you earlier on here that you have allocated time and you have no authority to exceed it, no authority and no excuse.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Jaa, but Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]


... Deputy Speaker, why are you switching off my microphone? Why are you switching off my microphone?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because, hon member, I told you and you are defying me.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, I’m not defying you I’m asking question


to the President.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are. Hon member, I have informed you of the decision I have made. You know what you should do. Your time is expired.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, I’m asking a question. I’m not arguing, I’m asking a question to the President. Allow me


to ask a question to the President. Stop protecting the President, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am not going to allow you because you deliberately overstretched your time allocated to you after I’ve warned you before. You have no authority to do that. You will not do that.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, can I address you?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’m muting you now. Hon members, I told


you earlier on that you’ve got allocated time.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: I never spoke before.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t be focusing on everything else, but your question, that is a problem. I told you that I’m stopping you and you are not going to ask that question because you had an opportunity to do so within your allocated time. There is no flexibility anymore.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Can you show me my time? Can you show me my time, Deputy Speaker? Deputy Speaker, can you show me the time that you talking about?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I will show you ... [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, I want you to show me now because I want to ask a question. The President is here now and I want to ask him a question now.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I’m muting you now and you are


not going to have any say or anymore. We’re done with you.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, I want to ask a question to the President.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you proceed you’re going to leave.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: That’s what you do, you want to protect the President.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Hon member, look at you.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: I’m here to ask the President the question.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please go. Please go. Please leave.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: This is not your Parliament. This is not your Parliament.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe, with the greatest respect,


don’t continue to do that.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: This is not your Parliament.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... [Inaudible.] compounded the problem


you’re creating, hon member. I ask you to go now. Look at you.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: This is not your Parliament and I will go. But I want to warn you that this is not Parliament. You do not own this place.





MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Ke kopa o tsamaye mme…





... with the greatest respect.





Ke kopa o tsamaye.







Ms O M C MAOTWE: You don’t own this place.





MOTLATSI WA SEPIKARA: Ke kopa o hate kosene mme.










Order! Order, hon members! Hon members, no. Hon members, let’s


allow the President to speak.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Who is he going to respond to? What is he going to respond to?



Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, I’m




Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, allow the President to answer the questions. However, for you to be chasing members out, who’s the President going to be answering the question ... [Inaudible.] ... give the President when he was asked the question, and you are doing it again. Stop being emotional when the EFF members are asking questions.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...





Ke kopa o kgaohane le ntho eo e o ntse o e bua eo. Haeyo!





There is no order in what you are saying. If you don’t play by


the rules you are not going to be allowed to continue to play


... [Interjections.]



Ms N V MENTE: ... [Inaudible.] you are saying, you are not orderly yourself. You are emotional. You are not orderly. Why are shouting at members? We are not your kids.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!


Ms O M C MAOTWE: Don’t treat us like your children, we are not your kids. We are members just like you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Can you just switch off that


member’s microphone? Close that microphone. Close it.





Ngicela nihambe ...





... if you want to go.






The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, we know who you are ... [Interjections.]



Ms O M C MAOTWE: But you said that “delela” is parliamentary. You said it’s parliamentary. You said it yourself. You said that “delela” is parliamentary.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are compounding the problem you have created.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: No, it’s your problem. You’re creating your problem. You’re creating your own problem yourself. You should have allowed the President to speak. We want to hold the executive accountable here in this Parliament.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you go, please. Can you leave, please. I’m going to mute you. Hon members, we will not allow this disorder. Hon members, can you be orderly, please. Allow the House to proceed. Don’t ... [Interjections.] ... hon members, I said that be orderly ... [Interjections.] ... no, you are out of order, that’s the reason and you can’t be screaming here when the presiding officer is ... [Interjections.]



An HON MEMBER: You must chase them out of the House. Chase them out of the House.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member on the virtual platform, switch off her microphone, please. Please, switch off her microphone. We won’t have disorder here and people behaving as if they can play outside of the rules. No, no. [Applause.] Hon members, can we proceed. Mr President, is your time, please.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, allow me to Chair, please, with the greatest of respect, I’m requesting the President to respond. With the greatest of respect ... [Interjections.]



Dr M Q NDLOZI: With the greatest of respect, Deputy Speaker, is a point of order.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, what are you rising on?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: I’m rising on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, what are you rising on? What is the issue you want to address? Let’s proceed, hon members. Mr President, please proceed.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, can I raise a point of order?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I asked you that on what basis are you raising an order?



Dr M Q NDLOZI: No, I wanted to asked that when are you taking a break because I think you are tired, Deputy Speaker. Give


other people to preside. Just take a break, man, it’s not


bad... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...





... ke kopa o tsamaye le wena, ke kopa o tsamaye ...





... because you are tired. You are disorderly, this is the fourth time ... [Interjections.]



Dr M Q NDLOZI: No, I’m saying that you are tired ...


{Inaudible.] ... all the time. Why can’t you go outside and





The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you switch off that microphone actually you mustn’t reopen that microphone again, please. This is absolutely disorderly and he’s doing it deliberately. No, this is unacceptable. We are proceeding. I mustn’t hear that microphone because it must be switched off altogether. Mr President, please, proceed.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. To the extent that I heard the question or comments which did not

... [Inaudible.] ... culminating to a question. It was about achieving greater efficiencies at Durban Port. The hon member was saying that we should not really be focusing on saying that Durban Port is inefficient. I like approach of saying that we should be focusing more on the efficiencies the Durban Port has, that is what we are aiming to have a much more efficient port. The good thing is that we’ve been in number one on the continent, in Sub-Saharan Africa. We are now number three and the entire management team is focusing on getting us to become number one again, and they are taking a number of steps. They have already achieved a number of great efficiencies measured against the benchmark that exists in the world. And we are beginning to move forward.



They have taken the task of repositioning Durban Port very, very seriously and I have no doubt whatsoever that working together with all parties, including the private sector, they will be able to get there. And I seem to have hear the hon member saying no, we don’t need the private sector. The successful ports around the world are those that have been able to utilise the contribution that the private sector has to make in a form of technology, in the form of management


systems, and just a great and delivery capability that the private sector has. We are saying that we want to crowd the private sector in as that being in money, skills and technology. So, it could bring them in and we bring them in on our terms. there’s nothing that can beat that because we are all working towards a good end. Of course, the private sector will always be seeking to work to achieving profits but so should we.



However, our other important aspects are that we should be developmental in what we do. Durban Port is going to be developed through focusing on having a developmental approach which will result in the creation of jobs. We should reside in that of being young people to be properly skilled and trained. So, in the end we see grate mutual benefit necessary work with the private sector, and we do so to advance our combined interests. Therefore, I’m not worried and concerned about the co-operation that we can have, so long as it is based on principle, and so long as it is based on good partnership where we look foster the development of each partner as we move on. So, thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Thank you.



Question 6:


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The National Strategic Plan for Gender-Based Violence and Femicide requires that the country strengthen the capacity within the criminal justice system to do a number of things but also to apprehend and successfully prosecute perpetrators. The criminal justice system is expected to provide justice, safety and protection for survivors of gender-based violence but also care to the survivors. A number of existing initiatives and measures, such as our Thuthuzela care centres, the SA Police Service, SAPS’s Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences units and our sexual offences courts are continuing to do that by providing services to the gender-based violence survivors. This is the care and compassion that we want all these units to demonstrate when we deal with gender-based violence and femicide cases.



We are also confident that the three new Bills which are currently before Parliament for consideration will, once passed into law, further strengthen government’s response to prevent and combat the gender-based violence, GBV, in all its forms.



With respect to the backlog in cases relating to gender-based violence, during the course of the fourth quarter of the 2020-


21 financial year, the SA Police Service finalised 3 534 dockets for crimes against women that had been outstanding for more than a year. This constitutes 42% of the total number of

8 289 dockets that had been outstanding for more than a year.



While this is welcome progress, and it is progress, our ability to effectively investigate and prosecute gender-based violence is severely limited and hampered by the backlog in DNA cases at forensic laboratories.



According to the SA Police Service, 2 556 DNA cases related to gender-based violence were finalised between 18 February and

25 April this year. As at 25 April this year, there were more than 83 000 gender-based violence-related cases in process, and more than 77 000 cases were older than 35 calendar days. This is clearly unacceptable and, if allowed to continue at this pace, will severely hamper the fight against gender-based violence. A number of interventions have been implemented by the SAPS to address the DNA backlogs. These include, amongst others, improving supply chain processes, the procurement of consumables at a cost of R4,2 million by way of a deviation from National Treasury for the prioritisation of cases identified by the National Prosecuting Authority and the filling of vacant posts in forensic science laboratories.


An additional R250 million was allocated to the operational baseline budget to address challenges in forensic laboratory services. The SA Police Service has also initiated the bidding process to award all outstanding contracts for the consumables that are critical in addressing the DNA backlogs. In this regard, the SA Police Service developed a DNA backlog recovery plan, which is a multidisciplinary intervention within and outside the SA Police Services. This action plan with clear timeframes and timelines was presented to Parliament’s portfolio committee in March this year. A new forensic exhibit management system was implemented on 6 April 2021, to enable effective tracking and tracing of samples received at the different laboratories.



Regular meetings are also being held between the SA Police Service, the Department of Justice and the National Prosecuting Authority to assist the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, with the prosecution of these cases and to fast-track DNA analysis reports of court cases that have been long outstanding.



In addition to these initiatives, the Presidency is working with the Gender-Based Violence Response Fund which is a private sector initiative to mobilise funds to tackle gender-


based violence, and the SA Service to also find effective ways to clear the backlog. To expand forensic capacity, the work study investigation on the establishment of the DNA analysis capability at the Eastern Cape Forensic Laboratory Services was concluded in February 2021. This is the one where a number of people I came across more than a year ago, almost two years ago complained. I am glad that this process is now moving forward. Our police are engaged the Labour department to review the basic conditions of employment of people working in this sector to allow for a shift system to increase the working hours of staff. Our forensic laboratory services are a crucial in as far as improving the response of the criminal justice system and in particular to the gender-based violence process.



We are therefore resolved to work with all stakeholders and we are pleased that a number of stakeholders have been willing to work with us to draw on whatever resources are available to remove these backlogs as soon as possible. And I have no doubt that these backlogs are going to be removed as we focus more and more on how we can focus on gender-based violence and femicide in our country in a proactive manner that will make the women and children of our country feel a lot more protected, I thank you, Deputy Speaker.


Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. To your hon President, I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. I thank you for the numbers and the figures although I have my doubts on that, but I will follow that up in the Portfolio Committee on Police on which I serve because we have a different picture. The fact of the matter is that, hon President, the question must be asked why did we get into this situation where for instance, the DNA backlog on cases we are talking about 173 000 cases. Yes, I understand not all of them are gender-based violence. The fact is that there are actually two reasons. Firstly, there were no consumables available for the laboratories which the hon Minister of Police only realised in March this year. Secondly, the system of exhibit tracking has been stopped last year in June. There have been nine court cases. The last one was a Constitutional Court case where the police lost. My follow-up questions is, is the hon President willing to interfere and to ensure that we do not have further court cases and that these problems of consumables and court cases be solved? I thank you.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank hon Groenewald for saying that he recognises that there is progress, but he doubts the figures. And I would like to invite him to interrogate the figures and the


portfolio committee level because these figures were given to me by the police themselves and that I was pleased about because it has raised the level of consciousness and awareness and attention amongst the police about the importance of this work. You want to know why and how it get there. I must admit that there has not been very good focus and the Minister also admits this and now he is working feverish to make sure that there is great focus. The Minister himself as well as the commissioner and the leadership of the police are now much more aware that this is an important work and it’s got to be done.



I will not be able to give you a guarantee that we will prevent and stop court cases because court cases are initiated by individuals, by people and one can never really give a guarantee that regard. But what I can say is that, yes, we will continue with our attention. My office will continue to focus on this. Professor Olive Shisana is always focused on gender-based violence issues working together with team of leaders who are executing the national strategic plan. So, I have a level of comfort that it will be done. But I am deeply worried about the continuing spate of the gender-based violence cases and want to ensure that not only the doors that


be passed but also the implementation that you talk about, hon Groenewald, does actually take place.



We want to do this because it is important for our country to take the issue of gender-based violence very seriously. it is a blind eye on our nation and it does not make us look good at all. So, we need to continue with our efforts to make sure that we eliminate gender-based violence in South Africa. This is one of the better ways of being able to do so because we have got to follow up those who have made it their business to perpetrate violence against the women of our country. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.



Ms T M JOEMAT-PETERSSON: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. From the response given by our hon President it is very clear that the DNA turnaround plan of the SA Police Service, SAPS, will have the desired effect on reducing the backlog in cases related to gender-based violence and femicide. Hon President, do you believe that the steps taken by SAPS will be sufficient to address the backlogs in DNA tests and thus positively contribute towards our strategy and our fight against the scourge of gender-based violence and femicide? I thank you.


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, yes, I do believe that the measures and the steps that we are going to take will make a very positive contribution. We need to have confidence that the initiatives that are being taken particularly in relation to ensuring that the DNA problems, challenges and backlogs are solved, will make a huge contribution. But it also depends on all of us working together to rid our country of gender-based violence. And we have agreed that it cannot be done by the women of our country alone nor can it be done by government alone. It has to be done by all of us collectively working together and there are various aspects to this. There is criminal justice system which needs to be strengthened, there is legislative system that is now before Parliament that we need to address and there is the mobilisation process where we need to mobilise all of society especially men and young boys to make sure that they respect the rights of women. But there is also the other technical side of making sure that the DNA backlogs are resolved. The cases of the past are also resolve because those who perpetrate violence against women must know that they cannot get away. We also need to rid our country of patriarchy so that the men of our country must know that they do not own the women of South Africa but they are their fellow citizens, they have rights as much as everybody has. We must treat them


with respect, with good understanding as well. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. Mr President, it is very easy to get lost in statistics. But when we actually listen to the real experiences of the victims of gender-based violence you will know that there is a significant problem. I recently met a mother in Pietermaritzburg. She shared with me the horrific story of her daughter Dominique du Plooy who was hijacked, forced to drink poison, assaulted and presumably raped. She died the next day from her injuries. That was in December 2019, and a year and a half since the family has yet to see any progress in the case. She does not have a case number. witnesses have not been interviewed and they were told that the outstanding

final toxicology report could take five years; five years. What world is that acceptable. It is not only DNA is the basics by toxicology. Mr President, if you think you are winning the war on gender-based violence, you are being misled. What is your message to Dominique du Plooy’s family; when can they expect justice; and how do you explain this failure to deal with gender-based violence to the millions of terrified women in South Africa?


The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I will say to hon Steenhuisen that the case he has related now is a horrible case. It is very, very concerning and the story that you have just related, these stories are multiplied many times over as one goes around the country I had occasion two weeks ago to be in the Free State where we were opening a centre and one of our Mecs in the Free State was relating some really horrific stories of the women of our country and not only battered, but they are also killed by loved one - those men who say they love them. It is concerning that their cases flow from such horrible acts are not followed up with the enthusiasm that we want. Police service in our country I must say they are trying their best as they can, but there are gaps and there are lapses and there are shortcomings. The type of gaps and shortcomings that you are alluding to is one that I would like our Minister of Police to follow up because it is concerning and it should be addressed.



I have personally going to the homes of a number of women who have been dealt with very violently – who have been killed or assaulted. I have gone there to offer condolences and to try and demonstrates compassion. We’ve got a societal problem but the police need to be there to give the support and to demonstrate compassion to the women of our country.


So, on that one I think there’s been a huge, huge shortcomings and the lapse and I would like to see it being followed up with immediate effect because it should not be so. They should not be saying it will take five years to deal with DNA aspects of this case but also to have witnesses interviewed. These things matter so much to families that are affected. The government demonstrating that it is a caring government which is a government that has compassion and wants to see the best that can be done for the women of our country and I would like us to continue raising these matters so that we raise the level of awareness and the level of alertness that our police should have in dealing with this matter. Thank you very much for being it to our attention and I will advise our Minister to follow it up. Thank you so much.



Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Mr President, the Commission for Gender Equality recently released its report on the government’s emergency response action plan on gender- based violence and femicide and it shows the grim reality of little accountability by government in the fight against gender-based violence and femicide. It is highly concerning that the report found that it is, and I quote:


It is still unclear how the R1,6 funds committed by the President towards the emergency response action plan were to be raised and dispersed for the implementation of the implementation of the plan.



Mr President, considering the urgency of addressing gender- based violence and femicide in our country and rolling out the intervention programme, what immediate actions will be taking relating to the recommendations in the report? Thank you.



The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The amount of money we allocated was R1,6 billion. It was money that the government departments were going to be spending in allocating various programmes that were agreed on in terms of our national strategic plan. So, the execution thereof was underpinned by the availability of this money. The committee that has been put in place one of its key task is to monitor the allocation of the money, the spending of the money and to make sure that indeed the money is there. So, I will be waiting to receive a report from this committee so that they are able to give an account of what has happened.


One of the reasons we wanted this type of committee is to ensure that the work gets done- the national strategic plan is implemented in full and in all its ramifications but that they should also keep government on its toes and ensure that at government level we do indeed implement what we said we would. It is almost like an oversight committee and when there is a flaw, where there is a weakness is meant to be escalated to the highest level. So, that’s what I will be waiting for. I expect that this being a high profile programme and objective it is something that will be done to good effect. It may well be that we do so doing effectively as we ought to, but a commitment is there and if it is flagging and lacking we will be making sure that indeed it is achieved.

Deputy Speaker, we will end on a rather sad note on the issue of gender-based violence but I would like to reiterate that I think we have raised the level of awareness as a nation on the gender-based violence issue. What we now need to do is to all work together to make sure that what we set out by the women of our country set up in the national strategic plan which is very unique in the world is actually implemented and that all of us must work together with the women of our nation to promote a gender-based violence free South Africa so that the women of our country can walk around and live without any fear. They can be free knowing that they are not going to be violently assaulted or even killed. We must and we will continue to work on to make sure.

I would like to call upon Parliament to hasten the process of finalising those three Bills because the women of our country are looking forward to this Parliament to do its part. But much more importantly all of us as leaders need to be making ensure that we spread the message. We speak as loudly as we possibly can against those who perpetrate violence so that their silence can disappear in our nation because when that happens the level of consciousness amongst our people is raised to a higher level. The pandemic of gender-based violence must come to an end. But I am hoping that all of us will continue working together in that regard. I would like to thank you Deputy Speaker for the opportunity to appear on a virtual basis before the National Assembly to answer these questions. Thank you very much.



The House adjourned at 17:28.




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