Hansard: NA: Mini-plenary 2

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 11 Mar 2021


No summary available.





Watch the video here: MINI-PLENARY SESSIONS1



Members of the mini-plenary session met on the virtual platform at 14:00.



The House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.



THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon members, I am in a place that doesn’t have a stable network, I will keep on going off. Before we proceed I would like to remind you that the virtual mini plenary is deemed to be in the precinct of Parliament and constitutes a meeting of the National Assembly for debating purposes only. In addition



to the rules of the virtual sittings, the rules of the National Assembly, including the rules of the debate apply. Members enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the


sitting of the National Assembly. Members should equally note that anything said in the virtual platform is deemed to have been said to the House and maybe ruled upon. All members who have logged in shall be considered to be present and are requested to mute their microphones and only unmute when recognised to speak. This is because the mics are very sensitive and will pick up noise which might disturb the attention of other members.



When recognised to speak, please unmute your microphone and


connect your video, that’s only when you are recognised. Members may make use of the icons on the bar, at the bottom of theirs screens which has an option that allows a member to put up his or her hand to raise points of order. The secretariat will assist in alerting the Chairperson to the members requesting to speak. When using the virtual system, members are urged to refrain or desist from unnecessary points of order or interjections.



We shall now proceed to the order of this mini plenary session, which is a subject for discussion in the name of the hon O M C Maotwe on: The implication of privatisation of Eskom for energy security. I now recognise the hon Maotwe.





Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chairperson, thank you very much Mam Boroto, good afternoon to the members and the officials of the EFF. Let us appreciate that at the centre of sustainable and quality of livelihood is access to affordable energy and dependable energy. Now, at the centre of such dependability is Electricity Supply Commission, Eskom, with the current administration is mutilating into three different components, one focusing on generation, the other focusing on transmission and the other focusing on distribution.



What is effectively happening at Eskom is that the privatisation of energy generation through plugging of independent power producers has been enabled. The unbundling of Eskom into generation transmission and distribution as three separate and independent businesses is the clear undisputed capitalist route to privatisation. The direction is evidently towards incapacitating Eskom energy generation capacity and allowing space for independent power producers, which are making millions of unjustified profits.



In his state of the nation address, Mr Ramaphosa, he said:


“South Africa will gradually scale down fossil fuels” meaning


that he will gradually and purposefully close coal power station including Medupe and Kusile, which government has already spent more than R400 billion into building those power stations at the cost of the tax payers. It cannot be that we spend more than R400 billion on building coal fire power stations and before we even successfully complete this and fully plugged them in a grid, we began talk about closing down coal power stations, because it means that we have not realised the return on investment of these very important power stations.



If the energy plan of Mr Ramaphosa succeed, the town such as Emalahleni, Middleburg, Mesina, Machado Liphalale and others who are depended on coal will become ghost towns, such we have seen many ghost towns happening in this country. This would just join the long list of the ghost towns under the ANC-led government.



...[Inaudible.]... economy has proved in the last two decades that it has no capacity to create new sustainable jobs. This means that more than 90 000 workers will be unemployed and various [Inaudible.] stream businesses will collapse.


The other problem with this approach is that is biased to financialisation and making of unjustified profit. It also undermines a balance energy mix of clean coal technology, renewable energy and nuclear technology.



It is premature to think that we can discontinue use coal, because this will threaten South Africa’ energy security, livelihood and any capacity to revive the economy. Energy security is a matter of national security. And we cannot, simple put energy security in the hands of private interest who are not loyal to anything but profit at all cost.



Energy security is the matter of industrialisation and we cannot have sustainable and sound industrial policy, if we cannot guarantee energy security. Businesses, small businesses in particular depend on energy security to invest and expand their businesses.



Germany tried to decolonise this primary energy supply in the early 2000s by prematurely moving away from coal as a primary energy supply, because of some flimsy misguided attempts to finalised energy supply disguised as climate change initiatives. This threatened the industrial policy and also doubled the average cost of the electricity for household.


According to Eskom, South Africa still has some 53 billion tons of coal reserves. It is estimated that based on present production rate, there should be almost 200 years of coal supply that is still left.



As EFF we support the call for sources of energy that will reduce carbon emission. There’s undisputable evidence that the only way we can build sustainable future is by transition to zero and low carbon energy through use of solar wind, hydro, geothermal and biomass energy.



The transition to low and zero carbon energy must be done in manner that takes into account South Africa’s industrial needs without compromising livelihood and energy security, however we know that the current management of Lily white boy’s union at Eskom, who are busy looting our entity, appointing their friends and failing to stabilise the grid. Instead they have normalised loadsheddings and they have even unashamedly changed its name to load reduction, as if this makes any difference.



This is because of a safe administration of New Dawn that wants to govern through Public Relations, PR exercises.


Loadshedding and load reduction is the same because both lead to electricity cuts.



The EFF is the only party that warned that the appointment of the current Chief Executive Officer, CEO, who is clearly unqualified and has failed to manage complex organization in the past is deliberate to collapse Eskom, sooner than we all expected and he’s doing a great job in collapsing Eskom. He was appointed because some misguided belief that white equals competence and it was clear for all to see that this is part of making state-owned enterprises, SOEs white yet again, as if this will automatically lead to competence.



Mr Pravin, the Minister of Enterprises, believes in white people for simply being white and not their capacity and their competence. The Reuters do not hide that at the hand of helm of Eskom, white corruption will thrive, shortly after his appointment, he has already handpicking executives and suppliers for an appointment without following due processes.



When the EFF raised this issue for an appointment of companies that are not qualified during Standing Committee on Public Accounts, SCOPA, meetings, people were quick to defend whiteness without looking at the corruption going on at Eskom.


We are not shocked that there is racial marginalisation of black executives and companies at Eskom, this is part of a campaign to bring back whiteness at the back door, as a matter of good governance under the New Dawn.



We must put it on record that we condemn the failure of Eskom Board to act decisively where there are allegations of corruptions at Eskom. In the past we have seen many people whom it was alleged that they were corrupt and were suspended some without even given a fair hearing. But, when it is whites who are accused of corruption and fraud the Board colludes to exonerate them. We were told that there are allegations of corruptions against Chief Operational Officer, COO, Jan Obelholzer, and some internal investigation was conducted and he was cleared, he was never suspended at the time of the investigation and he was cleared. We are told that the CEO is involved in serious case of corruption and unethical behaviour but he is not suspended. Why is he not suspended, why does the board think that they can conduct an investigation into all these serious allegations, while he is still at work when he is such a senior executive at Eskom.



Unless we deal with the racist marginalisation of blacks and the reign of terror at Eskom by Jamnandas and the [Inaudible.]


the complete collapse of Eskom is imminent and will be devastating to the livelihood of our fellow pure black people.



Unless Eskom begin to build its own renewable energy capacity and in the process ensure that components in the value chain are sourced locally. We cannot talk about a just transition. Unless Eskom take control of its coal mines and do away with nonsensical evergreen contracts that were even entered into before I was born, coal cost escalations will continue to rise unsustainable levels. Unless Eskom revive its internal maintenance logistic capacity and stop selling state assets to cronies, the utility will begin to stabilize its finances. But we know none of the current management are interested in any of these measures because the deliberate intention is to collapse Eskom and sell all its assets, grid by grid in an effort to resuscitate riddle accumulation strategy.



We are calling for the energy sustainability at Eskom and we are saying Eskom must be at the centre of such very critical important aspect of industrialisation. I thank you Chairperson.



Mr K E MAGAXA: Hon House Chair, the tragic event that happened yesterday in Braamfontein where Mthokozisi Ntumba lost his


life in a standoff between police and protesting students cannot be overlooked. Although the circumstances of his death are unclear, but the fact of his untimely death leaves me extremely saddened, and overcome with immense grief and disbelief. I trust that Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID will leave no stone unturned to ensure that, justice for the grieving family. My sincere condolences to his family and loved ones.



Chair, now turning my attention to the matters at hand. Hon Chair, we are asked here today to deliberate a hyperbolic red herring, manufactured by the EFF to distract attention from their own shenanigancy. We could just dismiss this as cheap politicking. However, we have the responsibility to expose lies and populist gimmick. Therefore, I will use my time to present the truth and the facts. It was renowned socialist and poet George Owen who once said, I quote: “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act”



I can state categorically and without fear of contradiction that, there is no privatisation, there is no intention to privatise Eskom. Therefore, being asked to discuss implications of a nonexisting issue is mischievous, childish and disingenuous. It is clear from the onset that, the EFF’s


topic is based on falsehood and lies. The point of departure of debate of the motion for us as the ANC, was expressed by the great African patriot and the freedom fighter Amílca Cabral when he said, I quote:



We must practice revolutionary democracy in every aspect of our Party life. Every responsible member must have the courage of his responsibilities, exacting from others a proper respect for his work and properly respecting the work of others. Hide nothing from the masses of our people. Tell no lies. Expose lies whenever they are told. Mask no difficulties, mistakes, failures. Claim no easy victories.



As usual, the EFF has no original ideas of its own, on how to expand and grow the electricity sector as a key input for economic growth. All it does, it raises fantasies and day dreams as part of the debate. So, in manufacturing a false notion of privatisation and claims to be true, it is a time that a serious policy conversation happens among the political parties in Parliament, geared towards the economic construction and recovery.


Given the false premise of the EFF motion, the ANC position on Eskom, independent power producers, IPPs and energy security must be addressed to set the record straight. Electricity supply is a key input to the economy, and therefore is vital for growth and development. Eskom plays a critical role in the supply of electricity for many years. The country’s electricity supply by Eskom has been supplemented by independent power producers, which was uplifted by Eskom to supply the market.



Eskom produces more than 90% of the electricity supply to the market, and therefore Eskom plays a critical role as a supplier of electricity. Eskom generates electricity form multiple energy carriers such as coal, hydro, nuclear and renewables. These carriers form an integrated system of supply of electricity. The country’s electricity demand is high and cannot be supplied by a single energy carrier, and is therefore supplied by multiple carriers in part of government’s strategy for security of electricity supply and is part of the integrated resource plan.



In the state of the nation address of 2020-2021, the President recognised that Eskom was affected by a number of problems which were caused by state capture and corruption. He kept


asking on ...[Inaudible] ... governance and to turn Eskom into a sustainable energy utility. The expansion of electricity supply through improving Eskom supply, increasing supply through the independent power producers, IPPs, is part of government strategy to create a supply demand balance for an electricity supply to ensure economic development and growth.



The development of green energy through IPPs is part of the global movement to cleaner energy sources and the reduction in carbon emissions. Green energy provides industrialisation opportunities for the country and new job opportunities.



Hon Chair, with the benefit of the fact, clear and incontrovertible evidence that no privatisation exists. It is curious why the EFF would develop this pedestrian fantasy. I can surmise that the EFF is running out of ideas. How else can we explain conflicting restructuring with privatisation, or a process of diversification of energy sources, with privatisation of Eskom? Hon Chair, a deeper look will also suggest that, a sinister agenda is at play.





Kaloku apha Sihlalo, kwezi ...




...overalls, you are dealing with people who have been implicated in the most inhumane scandal of stealing money from pensioners in the VBS Mutual Bank saga. These are the same fellows who are fingered in scandalous corruption in the City of Tshwane, in Johannesburg among others. Their desperation to avoid the long arm of the law leaves ... [Inaudible]... elements among the former ... [Inaudible] ... of these state entities to fight back. This is why they are extremely angry to a point that is nothing but tangent, ...[Inaudible] ... the next day they declared their undying love for him. One day they support the Zondo Commission but as soon as they are implicated, they denounce Zondo. What a comedy.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, on a point of order! On a point of order House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Ntlangwini I see your hand. Please anyone who wants to - hon Magaxa please wait. Hon Magaxa! Hon Magaxa! Hon Magaxa! Hon Magaxa!



Mr K E MAGAXA: Yes, Chair!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please wait, there is a point of order from hon Ntlangwini. Hon Ntlangwini, please next time you must raise your hand, I can see the hands on my screen. Yes, hon Ntlangwini.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you very much Chair. Chair first of all, the EFF was never mentioned in the Zondo Commission as the member has put, that is falsehood. He can continue to vent because he is singing for his support to protect his job.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member! Hon Ntlangwini, what is your point of order? That is not a point of order please. If you want to debate the issue you can. We will allow the speaker from your party to respond, not you. Hon Magaxa, please continue.



Mr K E MAGAXA: Thank you Chair. Those of us who are equipped with tools of analysis to distinguish between essence and appearance, can clearly see the madness disguised as radicalism and militancy because they are two different things. The process of fundamental social change requires sober minds not anger, because anger is madness. They demand patience and perseverance, because there are no short cuts, no easy fixes, no magic wands, no silver bullets. This thing


needs a revolutionary that is equipped with all those features. This is what distinguishes the ANC. We are guided by strategies and tactics in executing our national democratic revolution to resolve issues of class, race and gender contradiction, to create a better life for all our people.



When we tackle race, we are not tackling race and run with it in detriment of the class, because those two are inter- related. Until the EFF grasps that very important understanding of politics, we will remain on course as the ANC as our strategy is starting to bear fruits, and will provide a key ingredient for the implementation of the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan. Therefore, the EFF motion is not based on facts.



I just want to again plead as I am finishing, they must avoid telling lies and claim easy victories that, they never even touched with their fingers. Thank you Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. We now call on the hon Cachalia. Hon Cachalia from the DA? I saw hon Cachalia is ... Do I see him ... many more? Table staff, help me. I can’t see him on the participant’s list.


An HON MEMBER: Ma’am, he is on the list.



An HON MEMBER: Chairperson?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Yes, hon member?


I think it’s Hill-Lewis. I hear the voice.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Are you looking for me Chair?






Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Are you looking for me Chair?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes. Am I perhaps


breaking up? Can’t you hear me?



An HON MEMBER: No Chairperson, we can hear you very well. It’s


Comrade Cachalia that has a problem.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Chair, my connection is very unstable. Are you able to hear me?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I can hon Cachalia. You may proceed.


Mr G K Y CACHALIA: I ... [Inaudible.] ... loadshed and my data connection through my phone is very ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I understand. I had the same problem when we had load shedding.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: I cannot hear you Chair. Can you hear me Shabalala?



Ms L F SHABALALA: Yes, we can hear you hon Cachalia.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue hon Cachalia.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Yes, it’s appropriate. Okay, shall I





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue hon Cachalia.



Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Okay, let me begin by providing ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We can hear you clearly.


Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Thank you. Let me begin by providing a simple lesson in economics. Economics Nobel laureate Milton Friedman pointed out that when you use someone else’s money to spend on services for others, there’s no incentive to economise or to seek the highest value. And, if you add in Margaret Thatcher’s famous dictum about the problem with socialism being that you eventually run out of other people’s money, you have it in a nutshell.



That said, it is possible for government to be efficient if the electorate compels it to be. It’s the electorate’s money that government is spending after all. However, when the electorate doesn’t reflect the majority of taxpayers, it becomes a recipe for social disaster because over time government will either be forced to be efficient or collapse as a significant portion of taxpayers vote with their feet and move elsewhere, depriving government of essential revenues.



Eskom, which for nearly a century was a world-class power producer, was so successful that by the end of 1990 it was supplying more than half the electricity in Africa ... is now hobbled operationally when it counts for 82% of the hundreds of billions of bailouts allocated to financially distressed state-owned entities, SOEs. Once the world’s lowest cost


producer of electricity, it needed no financial support from 1923 when it was started to 2008.



The increased scope of supply of electricity to all in South Africa under our new political dispensation should’ve been an opportunity for costed growth; new customers modelled against the cost of increased generation and supply over an extended period and backed by government security.



But no, we simply ran the engine into the ground; bloated its workforce with costly vote-catching dead weight; stole billions; overpaid criminally in the name of black economic empowerment, BEE, for goods and services; and built white elephants that were faulty and that wouldn’t stand the test of time.



It’s time for a new model in the face of this chronic market failure. A model that will depoliticise economic decision- making; reduce public outlays; cap taxes; reduce budget deficits; shrink public-sector borrowing; and reduce the monopoly power of unions and the entrenchment of an aristocracy of labour at the expense of a reserve army of the unemployed. [Inaudible.] I’m talking privatisation here, yes,


to avoid the capture and preservation of rents in the quest for increased efficiency.



What is needed is the promotion of popular capitalism through a wider ownership of shares and the curtailment of the power of the unions to prevent the enablement of groups which have acquired control on the state apparatus to establish a preferential economic base for themselves.



Government would be well advised to consider the merits of privatisation on a case by case basis. Eskom presents a prime example. In private hands, its social value may well prove higher than if the firm remained in state hands. Local community involvement could help create a burgeoning economy. It would allow for dynamic entrepreneurship and the ability of private buyers to extract changes in the regulatory environment from government that would add to the real net output of ... [Inaudible.] ... economy by getting prices right, lowering trade barriers and increasing credit liability.



Government could use the windfall to retire some of its debt and if monies were drawn from foreign sources it would mean the repatriation of monies previously shipped abroad. Added


funds would also allow government to generate higher social value in other key spheres.



The question is why government refuses to entertain any of these ideas in the face of patent market failure. Finance Minister Mboweni has in the past hinted at the value of privatisation of state assets and clearly the separation of the utility into three parts — generation, transmission and distribution — paves the way for this. So why the ... [Inaudible.] ... when it comes to candidly examining the value of such a move? Surely its time to learn from other global examples and to responsibly examine the value of privatisation under what conditions and to what effect.



Privatisation was not possible in the past; the result of global sanctions imposed on the apartheid government, which meant that few world-class companies were interested in doing business in South Africa. That’s not the case now. We have highly developed local expertise and funding mechanisms able to step into the sector and potentially result in an efficient utility that makes electricity affordable and available.



As for Eskom’s failed mandate, the time for discussion is now,


instead of stumbling from blackout to blackout and from one


debt crisis to another as we compound the burden of an increasingly incapable state that won’t countenance the p word. Privatise with haste. I thank you.



Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Thank you very much House Chairperson. It is ironic that as we meet to discuss energy security and the issue of privatising Eskom, millions of South Africans are sitting at home or in their business places without electricity due to load shedding. This is despite Eskom’s

much-touted turnaround strategy and the promises that this entity would make strides towards cutting its debt and also reducing load shedding. So the real question to be asked is, can we afford not to privatise Eskom? Is Eskom itself not the biggest threat to our energy security?



Almost a year ago when the President announced the COVID-19 lockdown, Eskom issued a statement ... that the entity did not expect to implement load shedding during COVID-19. This was an empty promise as the people of South Africa were forced to remain in their homes faced with many days of load shedding.

There were 19 days of load shedding implemented during the six months between March and September alone. One day without electricity in a developing economy is one day too many. We


cannot afford this and we cannot allow Eskom to continue with business as usual.



In January 2018, Eskom’s chief financial officer, CFO, admitted that what is clear is that, “Eskom cannot solve financial and operational sustainability challenges that it faces alone”. Eskom has been reported in the media as saying that it does not intend to request another taxpayer bailout beyond the current commitments. However, this is contrary to the facts. Just a few weeks ago, the Minister of Finance requested this House to ... a Special Appropriation to once again bailout Eskom. According to Eskom’s financial results, it appears that it will still need further bailouts beyond 2021. The final nail in the coffin is Eskom’s admission that, using current tariffs, the separated generation, transmission and distribution entity will be in a similar lossmaking position. It is clear that, despite all efforts, Eskom is not a viable entity. It is unable to manage debt despite the turnaround strategies which they admit will not change their position.



So, the time for discussion is over. It’s time for action. Hon House Chairperson and members, the IFP once again reiterates our call on government to sell Eskom. Privatisation is not a


swear word. It does not mean that ... a company is private that it cannot also operate in the best interests of South Africans. The country cannot afford to continue to provide financial support to Eskom, and the people in business in South Africa cannot and should not be forced to operate without a reliable energy supply.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, you still have your minutes. Proceed hon Buthelezi.



An HON MEMBER: He’s donating the minutes to the ANC.



An HON MEMBER: He is done.



Mr E M BUTHELEZI: I’m done hon Chair.



An HON MEMBER: Yes, he’s done. The rest is for the ANC.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much hon Buthelezi.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We now move to hon Boshoff of the DA.


Dr W J BOSHOFF: From the FF Plus!



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: House Chair, sorry, before that member speaks ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Ntlangwini?



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: I would just like to know who is our member assisting us from IT because I have requested the remaining minutes of the EFF and nobody has come back to me. If I can please be assisted.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I am using a timer here. Your leader saved 1 minute 55 seconds.



Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Thank you.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Boshoff?



Dr W J BOSHOFF: House Chair, I just want to confirm that I am from the FF Plus and not from the DA.





Die EFF vra dat ons oor die implikasies van die privatisering van Eskom vir energiesekerheid moet praat. Dit is ’n algemene en ’n spesifieke gesprek. Privatisering van staatsondernemings is reg oor die wêreld ’n debatspunt, maar in hierdie geval, in Suid-Afrika, gaan dit spesifiek oor Eskom.



In beide debatte kom diegene wat absoluut in die vrye mark glo te staan teen aanhangers van die sterk ontwikkelingstaat – die “developmental state”. Voorstaanders van beide standpunte glo dat hulle antwoord die grootste voordeel vir alle welmenende landsburgers inhou.



Gewone burgers is gewoonlik minder ideologies en nie so teoreties oor sake nie. Hulle wil iets hê wat werk en wat nie te duur is nie. As hulle die staat meer vertrou as die geldmag

– dit is die ou word; vandag is dit “white monopoly capital” – dan hou hulle van staatsondernemings. Mense wat die staat wantrou – ongeag of dit ideologiese verskille is of hulle net dink die staat is hopeloos – hou meer van privatisering.



Die vraag is dus eintlik een van identiteit. Wie is my mense? Die staat, of die privaatsektor? Dit is die algemene storie. Maar nou praat ons oor Eskom in Suid-Afrika.


Toe Eskom goedkoop, betroubare krag voorsien het en boonop jaarliks winste in die staatskas kon stort, het min mense aan privatisering gedink. Nou voorsien Eskom duur, onbetroubare krag en maak hy die staatskas leeg. Lugbesoedeling is ook nou ’n kwessie, anders as veertig, vyftig jaar gelede.



Daar is nog ’n rede hoekom sommige drukgroepe Eskom as ’n kragmonopolie in die staat se hande ag. Dit is ’n politieke rede. Die rede is dat Suid-Afrika as staat ’n verbeeldingsvlug is wat met paaie, spoorlyne, ’n lugdiens, ’n kragnetwerk, en baie propaganda aanmekaar gehou word.



Maar, die paaie is vol gate, die spoorlyne is verwaarloos, en die lugdiens se vlerke is geknip. Al wat die wye en droewe land regtig aanmekaar hou is kragsentrales and kragdrade wat uit die hoogdy van sentrale beplanning en reusagtige staatsprojekte dateer.



As Eskom geprivatiseer word, moet dit wins maak of ondergaan. Dit sal die dinosourus-model van enkele, reuse kragsentrales met tien-duisende kilometers kragdraad vervang met kleiner, skoner, plaaslike kragvoorsiening. [Tussenwerpsels.]


Eskom was vir lank die antwoord op ’n politieke vraag. Die vraag was: Hoekom sou streke soos die Noordkaap en Weskaap hulle nou juis vanuit Johannesburg, Pretoria en selfs Nkandla laat regeer? Die antwoord was dat, as hulle anders sou kies, hulle water en ligte afgesny sou word.



Die tegnologie om krag sonder Eskom op te wek bestaan. Dis bekostigbaar, en dit word al hoe meer gebruik. Al wat Eskom staande hou in vandag se ekonomie is reëlings waarvoor die staat borg staan en ’n monopolie wat die staat afdwing teen ’n prys wat die burgers betaal.



Wat sal die privatisering van Eskom vir energiesekerheid beteken? Vir energiesekerheid, is die antwoord, niks. Energie sal doodgewoon verder voorsien word deur ander instansies.

Maar, die politieke implikasies sal enorm wees. Dit sal bevryding vir Afrikaners en ander minderhede in Suid-Afrika inhou.



Mnr H G APRIL: Jy dink net aan Afrikaners! Moenie vir ander minderhede praat nie!



Mnr I E GROENEWALD: Haai, jy mag nie so onderbreuk nie!


Dr W J BOSHOFF: Huisvoorsitter, ek is klaar en my tyd is verby.



Mnr H G APRIL: Ja, jou tyd is al lankal verby!



Mnr I E GROENEWALD: Ja, jou tyd is ook verby!



Dr W J BOSHOFF: April kom nog, maar dis kort!



Mnr H G APRIL: April kom verseker! Daarop kan jy staat maak! Maar jy gaan!



Dr W J BOSHOFF: Ek dink die Huisvoorsitter moet ’n bietjie


brood breek vir April.





The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon April, hon Boshoff ... Hon April, if you do that again, I am going to ask ICT to remove you and hon Groenewald. You cannot unmute your mics and then speak when somebody is on the floor. That is out of order. Please mute your mics and allow the member on the floor to speak. If you want to raise a point of order, you are allowed, but don’t just interject and say what you want to.


Mr H G APRIL: I apologise, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Swart?



Mr S N SWART: House Chairperson, the ACDP is acutely aware of the fact that Eskom is not capable of meeting South Africa’s energy needs, as years of poor performance and loadshedding show. Many hope that Eskom can still be a key instrument in the developmental state when it is plainly not, with power cuts crippling the economy and bailouts draining the fiscus.



Energy security is not threatened by any talk of privatisation, but by Eskom itself.



There is a critical need for more power. The reserve margin is just not big enough. In addition, between now and 2030,

11 000MW of coal-fired plants will have to be decommissioned as it is difficult and expensive to keep these old power stations operating.



According to energy expert, Prof Eberhart, diversifying the power sector is no longer a choice; it is an imperative. He says that R1 trillion needs to be invested in new power in South Africa over the next decade to restore energy security,


and that opening up the electricity sector to massive flows of private investment in generation capacity is now our only option. The ACDP agrees with this sentiment.



Eskom, with a debt of R480 billion, is unable to finance and build new power stations. No financial institution will give it the loans it needs to generate new power. Its debt repayment for this year amounts to R94 billion, and it generates half the cash it needs to service this debt. It is thus technically insolvent and survives through government bailouts.



The government itself is over-indebted and financially constrained. That leaves the private sector as the only source of finance for new power.



Innovations in energy technologies and institutional and business models are disrupting power markets. Thousands of megawatts of solar and wind energy and utility-scale battery storage need to be procured every year, going forward. The private sector is showing that it is willing and ready.



Large industrial and mining power users are enthusiastic. The red tape for small and medium power projects must be reduced


considerably, freeing consumers to invest in their own power solutions or contract private providers directly.



The grid should also be unbundled, creating a fair and transparent platform for competitive, least cost-prohibitive procurement and delivery of power. Far from threatening energy security in the country, such steps will enhance energy security, given the poor performance of Eskom over the years.



The necessary legislative and policy reforms in this regard must be enacted without delay to allow this to happen and to ensure energy security in the country. Thank you.



Ms J C N MKHWANAZI: Thank you, hon Chairperson, greetings to everyone, the future of our country linked to our actions will never lose focus and ... [Inaudible.] The ANC approach to energy security is not based on a narrow backward single idea of privatisation on Eskom. The ANC’s vision on electricity supply, the development of Eskom in energy security is much bigger than the EFF’s caricature and false topics of this motion.



The ANC approach is driven by the fact that the electricity is the key input factor of economic development and growth. For


instance, the point is that the approach of the ANC to the energy security has never been determined by the EFF or by the DA. The ANC has never and will never pronounce on any policy which indicates privatisation of Eskom nor has its actions indicated privatisation of Eskom.





Siyekele ukuqamba amanga.





Eskom is playing a critical role in electricity supply, to provide efficient energy and related energy, and to continue to deliver its key mandate, to generate, transmit and distribute electricity to industrial, mining, commercial, agriculture, residential customers and distributors. Eskom continues to work towards its important task, to provide an uninterrupted supply of electricity, to supply economic growth and to improve the quality of life to all South Africans.



As a major driver of economic growth and development through its role, as a primary provider of electricity is in the supply of the bulk of the country’s electricity and we’ll continue to do so. Hon Chairperson, given the high volume that it generated from various the power plants from different


energy areas. It is difficult to produce which ... [Inaudible.] ... economic of scale to ... [Inaudible.] ...its generate capacity. The Independent Power Producers, the IPPs are and will provide a smaller volume of electricity. Hon House Chair, I think ...





... kufanele sifundise ukuthi ...





... government policy on Eskom is based on restructuring Eskom into three mainly: generation, transmission and restructuring is aimed at enabling greater management attention to focus and turning around the different parts of business and to improve accountability. Secondly, is to improve transparency and reduce opportunities of fraud and corruption, mitigate the risk of arising from having too big a company. This will limit the spread of financial problems and Eskom’s generating business to other parts of the business.



The fourthly, Chair the position of electricity sector to embrace clean technology and distributed generation, and better respond to a change taking place in the electricity sector. To diversify the generation of electricity across the


country’s reliance on a single supplier, continue to provide open access to the grid and remove conflict of interest in the procurement of power as well as following the independent generators market access. To generate more competition in the electricity market, which is expected to drive improvement, in efficiency and reduce prices...[Inaudible.] ... continue to provide a stable platform to transparently contracting least cost, security power; to attract investment in the electricity sector. Lastly Chair, to allow lenders to find different components of the business separately. This will allow debts to be priced more tightly, as it will be applicable to a unique risk individual business.



Hon Chairperson, following the President’s February 2019 announcement on Eskom’s unbundling a lot has happened. It is important to highlight on this one. The objective of Eskom’s reform process is to functionally separate ultimately from the three legally wholly owned subsidiaries of Eskom’s holding as outlined in the road map of Eskom electricity supply. I will urge, hon members to visit the road map of Eskom. To date, Eskom has finalised divisionalisation and launched three divisions with its Board and managing directors and it has created accounts for these three divisions.


A total of 9 400 employees has been relinked with 6 673 employees moved from corporate functions to divisions. The restructuring will assist in augmenting Eskom’s business model to put it in the path to a long-term sustainability and accountability. To each business whilst following

...[Inaudible] ... allowing for a fair, equitable, transparent access to transmission grid by private power producers.



Eskom’s turnaround strategy year 2020-22 is developed also to address challenges facing the Eskom financially, structurally and operationally. Sustainability is underpinned by five key pillars that are operational recoveries, improved income statement, improved balance sheet. Fourthly, implementation of road map legal separation and people and culture. The ANC’s approach to electricity supply and energy security is based on private and public sector partnership within the framework of regulation of the electricity industry. This design to increase and expand electricity supply capacity to meet demand is not a privatisation. The divisionalisation of Eskom is also based on the commercialisation of... [Inaudible.] ... production and create efficiency through its current asset base.


Chairperson, the ANC seeks to fight private partnership not for the sake of privatisation for Eskom but for ensuring the expansion of the electricity industry. The co-structure of Eskom is improving, as much savings has been recorded as well as improvement in the price of the coal supply, to ensure cheapest possible cost to the end user, which is very important. This approach to electricity supplier and energy security is not privatisation. I think, we need to emphasis on that.



Comrade Chairperson, government policy is based on fighting State Capture and corruption on state-owned entities, SOEs, such as Eskom. There is an improvement in corporate governance and reversing the effects of State Capture and corruption.

There has been much progress in this regard in terms of financial recoveries and ensuring that the new power stations in the form of Medupi and Kusile are fully operational. Hon Chairperson allow me ... [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mkhwanazi your time has expired. Thank you very much.



Mr K J MILEHAM: Hon House Chairperson the cold hard fact is that as we sit here right now, many South Africans are in


darkness. Their businesses shut down and their electricity turned off. Why? Not because of some failure on their part. No. It is because the state ...








USIHLALO WENDLU: (Ksz M G Boroto): Babu Mangcu! Babu Mangcu, vala, uyaphazamisa!





Mr K J MILEHAM: Thank you, House Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon member, you can continue.



Mr K J MILEHAM: It is because the state electricity utility Eskom has been unable to fix its internal problems. Load shedding or let us call it for what it really is “rolling blackouts” has been with us since 2007.



However, over the past few years, as Eskom’s ability to keep its power stations operational has declined, the rolling blackouts have worsened to unprecedented levels. Eskom, which


once supplied 80% of Africa’s electricity, now cannot meet domestic demand of its own. And so we have a situation where businesses are closed, scholars cannot study, parents cannot cook for their children and much needed vaccines cannot be kept cold. All because we have another failing and overstaffed state-owned entity being propped up by financial bailouts.



There are those amongst us here who will say we cannot allow Eskom to fail and we must ensure that Eskom is competitive. It is a state asset. The reality is Eskom has already failed if you cannot realise that you are living in a dream world. As for Eskom being competitive, it is the list competitive entity in the country. It has a mere total monopoly on electricity generation and a total monopoly on electricity transmission.

It decides who it will purchase additional power from and where and how much? It determines the price of electricity because it is the 600-pound per ruler in the room.

Competitive, hardly.



Then there is the issue of it being the state asset. Now an asset is defined as a resource that has value and is able to meet debts, commitments or all legacies. Again let us look at the facts. Eskom has liabilities of some R617 billion according to their September 2020 interim financial


statements. It is unable to service its debts without government intervention and bailouts. That is their words, not mine. Eskom is not a state asset; it is a state liability.



There is an engineering term called “a single point of failure”. It refers to a process or part that fails which then causes every part to grind to a halt. In lay man’s terms it means putting all your eggs in one basket.



In South Africa, our single point of failure is Eskom. If our electricity supply fails, our economy fails. It is as simple as that. So energy security can only be achieved through more competition not less. That means opening up our grid and our economy to Independent Power Producers, IPPs. Incentivising investment in a green economy. Attracting expertise and allowing the market to determine supply, demand and electricity pricing. It means encouraging those residents who can afford it to installing rooftop solar, rather than penalising them for doing so. It means maximising energy efficiency. One quick way to do this is to rapidly roll out the national solar water heater programme which has been languishing unimplemented for the past five years under the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy. There exists some opportunity right now to take some of the debt out of Eskom’s


balance sheet, by selling off underperforming power stations and allowing municipalities and IPPs to generate their own power and sell into the national grid.



All it needs is for Minister Mantashe to step up and amend the regulatory environment as the President promised in the state of the nation address. Every stage of load shedding cost our economy R1 billion per day, according to various economists.

Every time the power goes off for an extended period of time, more people lose their jobs life becomes a little bleaker in the rainbow nation.



We have seen in the Zondo Commission how cadre deployment, the likes of Matshela Koko, Brian Molefe and Anoj Singh among others and corruption has gutted Eskom. This must stop and must stop now! Cadre deployment is the letch on the state and it fosters corruption and Eskom is the prime example of this.



As a country, we cannot afford more delays to secure our electricity supply. We must promote an open, transparent, market-based electricity sector and we must do it now. Thank you, Chairperson.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, good afternoon and good afternoon to the members and thank you very much for this opportunity, South Africa is a country with huge potential.

The pandemic and our response to it has shown that we are a resourceful country with great scientists, world class technology and great institutions to back them. We have demonstrated with great humility that we will be more than a match for this virus for example, in detecting the variants which took the world a long time to detect before the world could catch up with their own variants.



We can take pride in our achievements in this respect and in many other advances that we have made. Yes, I admit, there is much work to be done to reposition and revitalise Eskom after the tragic damage that has been done by state capture. But what we’ve had this afternoon is at ideological narratives, racist attacks and misplaced commentary on privatisation. Let me make it clear, right at the outset, Eskom is not being privatised and I will return to this in a moment.



We must admit all of us from all the parties that short- sightedness, greed and a determined effort to become rich through corrupt means has endangered national interest and placed institutions like Eskom in real trouble. There are


questions that the proposer of this debate must answer frankly, what is your agenda in raising these issues? It certainly, is not about energy security, it certainly is not about raising debates, but more certainly, it is not about offering any solutions to this country about the problems that it actually faces.



The facts are simple, transparent and clear. The objective of rebuilding and repositioning vital institutions are there for all to see. The fact that they have been damaged during state capture should be there for all to see. But we often political and opportunistically forget that. There are no secrets in the government’s agenda and our transparency is there to be seen.



So let’s be clear on a few things; there is no privatisation of Eskom on the agenda of this government or the governing party at all. Private sector participation is part of the government agenda as hon Mkhwanazi had pointed out. The one point I agree with him on the other hand is that roof top solar is also private production of energy. So, as the EFF opposed to poor people having solar panels on their houses and on the roof tops and where they produce excess energy to be able to sell that energy to Eskom and earn an income.


Secondly, energy security is vital to the wellbeing of our country – I think they have consensus on that. The other [Inaudible] is a plan to ensure energy security in South Africa. It is effective and timeous implementation is fundamentally important to ensuring that South Africa has enough energy for its citizens both its businesses and for future citizens and businesses as well.



All of these must happen in a context which has not been much referred to here after climate change commitment we have made as a country and as a society to the world and to ourselves. That we will reduce our carbon emissions. We will get the appropriate balance between the new Bills and fossil fuel based energy production. The process must be done through a just transition for workers, communities and for industry at large.



Eskom, as it has been pointed out as a decade old utility, which is the biggest generator of electricity and its transmission to the earliest parts of South Africa and indeed southern Africa. And distributions to the municipalities or itself to business and residences has played a vital role in this economy.


Eskom is a state-owned entity that is crucial. However, we admit that there are new dynamics, which I hardly refer to in this conversation, in both the energy and utility markets. It is the same Eskom that has been the subject of state capture as I pointed out earlier on, ruthless corruption, opportunistic mismanagement and deliberate hollowing out by boards and management over the last ten years. The hon Swart was part of the 2017 enquiry into this particular process.



This process has resulted in destroying the culture of excellence and the quality of performance that the “old Eskom” was capable of, and which it will return to in time. Today, the irony is that those who have the centre of the process of hobbling this institution continue to engage in dishonest tactics of destruction and whataboutisms in order to deceive the public and other institutions about their role.



So what is the government agenda? It is to ensure that the power sector reforms is comprised of the four clear areas; legislative and regulative reform where that is required, additional and a generation of energy both by Eskom and other private sector players as well. None of whom can [Inaudible] the energy producing capacity of Eskom. Restructuring of the


power stations and the power systems in order to meet the requirements of climate change.



Restructuring the entity itself into the three entities and ensuring that there is competition both within Eskom itself and between Eskom and other producers. Given its systemic nature, Eskom’s transformation will accelerate reform in the energy sector more broadly.



This government is restoring good governance at Eskom against much opposition both from the outside and inside Eskom. It is ensuring that strong management team dedicated to the national interest is in place, and where this management team comes from is [Inaudible.] It is non-racial, it is predominantly African, and it is representative of all sections of South Africa as patriots who want to participate in the process of rebuilding this institution.



It is also our responsibility to ensure that clean governance in all areas is applied, that corruption must be eradicated, and ensure efficient operations, financial stability over time, adapt to a new business model, as per the Eskom road map. And ensure adjust transition, as I pointed out earlier on.


We have been in touch with the board to ensure that there is maximum efficiency in generation and it is regrettable that we have load-shedding again. But I have been assured by the management that they are working hard and making sure that necessary repairs take place. But we will update Parliament in due course and some of the other progress that Eskom is making in this regard.



We fully accept that the current performance of the plant is unacceptable for South Africa and is not in line with the objective of energy security. But that does not mean privatisation. We will come back to that as well.



We will rapidly develop and deploy new sources of clean energy and electricity by procuring more generation capacity, by opening up the power system to re-allow our abandoned sources of wind, sun and other forms of renewables to be captured and utilise electricity generation.



We will ensure that the financial stability of Eskom - to ensure that we capitalise on the investment the country has made into these existing infrastructure particularly the two big power stations, is utilised in the proper kind of way.


The restructuring of Eskom is in line with global best practice. It will continue and it will deliver by the end of the year the key objective which is a separate transmission and entity and then other forms of restructuring will continue to happen. In a few years’ time, South Africa will be proud of the system that it has created, both publicly and with the participation of the private sector.



We want to restructure also to ensure that they are new efficiencies that are obtained both in the energy sector specifically, but in the economy more generally. In this particular regard, the energy shortfall of 4000 megawatts of the next five years must be filled in by in particular renewable energy.



We must also ensure, as it has already happened in the recent past, that black-owned businesses will be beneficiaries of this process and will contribute to the development of the renewable energy sector in particular.



Chair, there is abundant proof that there is clear programme ahead of us to resolve the issue of spur energy capacity to ensure that the balance sheet of Eskom is repaired. And there are active discussions in this regard. This has been


complimented by the kind of work that we have seen done in National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac. And the Nedlac compact that has been arrived at recently.



We need to ensure that tariffs are on the one hand cost reflective. But on the other hand they do not result in this industry becoming none competitive and our indigent family is not being looked after.



It is in this particular regard that Eskom has been experimenting with the issue of municipal debt. Without going into too much of detail at this point in time, what is called the active partnership model is being promoted with 3 or 4 municipalities around the country, to ensure that municipal debt is collected and that municipal collection process is up to date over the period of time.



Of course, the most important challenge that we face at Eskom is to prepare for the just transition. And ensure – as I said, that workers amongst others must be retrained, communities must be reoriented and their requisition for the new situation that they find themselves in over the next few years.


If hon Cachalia has inspiration, Cacha and Friedman, he is the cursed capitalist that we are going to have around in this country. Privatisation he says together with Mr Mileham and Ndabezitha Buthelezi is the answer.



But let’s look at taxes as the most recent example of what privatisation, disconnection from the national grid and other so called independence that taxes have enjoyed back to poor tax ...[Inaudible]... that were left without energy and that will suffer in the cold.



To end with hon Maotwe, I am sick and tired of the racist references to me as Pravin or Jamnadas, you are anti-Indian, you are racist in your remarks and it is time that we took you on about your racism as hon Magaxa pointed out earlier on. You have provided not a single solution. You don’t even understand the energy situation adequately to debate it. You have not provided any answers to energy security. You say on the one hand that carbon emissions must be dropped but on the other hand you are opposed to Independent Power Producers, IPPs. In all of your presentation you do not mention state capture; you do not mention corruption, whether by your people that you know or by others. And that is fascinating in an environment where South Africa’s economy is swamped by corruption itself.


It is regrettable that you have reduced this debate to one about race and one about nonsensical ideas that Eskom has been prepared for privatisation.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, we now move to hon Maotwe to close the discussion.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, House Chair, can you hear me, House Chair?



An HON MEMBER: We can hear you very well.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: You are not the House Chair, sit down.



An HON MEMBER: I am helping you with this thing of yours.


What’s your problem?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We can hear you very clearly.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, Chair, I will start with the Minister of Public Enterprises ... I don’t get threatened easily. So when you say ... [Inaudible.] ... I am not here not on account of your invitation, but I am here through the


mandate of the EFF voters that voted for EFF to be in Parliament. There is absolutely nothing you do. You can be tired of me, I am here and I am going to hold you accountable. So, it doesn’t matter what ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]



Ms J TSHABALALA: Hon House Chair, on a point of order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please, hon Malinga, you don’t do that. Not on this platform. You repeat it, you are gone. Hon Tshabalala, what is your point of order?



Ms J TSHABALALA: Thank you, House Chair, I would like you to rule on hon Maotwe’s sentiments when she addressed the member when she is supposed to speak through you and not address the member directly to because then it means the member must come in and respond and also when she gets personal and said nothing can be done and that she is not threatened. Those utterances are unparliamentary and she mustn’t do that.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, hon Maotwe, please proceed and address the Chair.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: I was invited to respond by Minister Pravin. He called me by name. so, I had to respond.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue, hon member.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: The country has just been exposed to the real political choices that we all have to make for the future of the nation, the future of generations to come, our children and our great grandchildren.



As the Minister of Finance has just unleashed an austerity budget on the nation without actually saying so, it is now clear that the ANC under the not so able leadership of Minister Gordhan and Mr Ramaphosa are hell-bent on dismantling Eskom and giving it over to their friends. What is also clear is that there two major political strengths of thinking in this country; one is of rampant neoliberalism characterised by the diminishing role of the state and unregulated and unaccountable private enterprises while on the other hand, we have the progressive option, which centres the state in the middle of our developmental aspirations which puts the people and the interests of the people first, something that none of the speakers from the ANC ever spoke about.


The ANC and the DA are basically one and the same thing. They have represented their interests of capital because their very existence is dependent on financing from these parasites. That is why they are hell-bent on privatising Eskom.



We can sit around here and be lied to with regard to the terms that they are using of separating or unbundling. The reality is that the main aim is to privatise Eskom. That is why they have they have collaborated in the dismantling of SA Airways, SAA. It is for that reason that they are actually actively seeking to liquidate all key state-owned entities literally reaping of the state of its assets. That is what the debate about Eskom is all about. It is about these progressive forces resisting and rejecting the neoliberal agenda by the ANC and the DA to privatise energy generations and distribution.



We must not forget that the DA brought a Private Member’s Bill here, led by hon Mazzone to privatise Eskom, which we rejected in the portfolio committee.



This fight is about the soul of the nation, and we dare not linger. It cannot be that Minister Pravin and Andre de Ruyter can be allowed to hand over such an important part of the nation’s economy to their friends. The systematic exclusion of


black businesses and marginalisation of black executives from Eskom is the precursor for what lays ahead of all of us if we allow these people to loot as they are doing. Black people, you are on your own.



Chair, I want to respond to Comrade Magaxa, who said absolutely nothing about the issue that we are discussing today. He went on and on about VBS Mutual Bank. He must come and tell us where in the VBS scandal are we mentioned. People are being arrested daily, but none of the EFF leaders have been arrested. He is singing for supper. We are not surprised because people like him ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]



Ms J TSHABALALA: Chair, I would like to ask hon Maotwe when she said hon Magaxa said that they were not mentioned in the VBS scandal ... [Inaudible.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon Tshabalala, you don’t do that, if you want to ask a question, you ask for permission to ask a question. You don’t just come in and start asking questions because you can only rise on a point of order not in the way you did. So, I am not allowing you to proceed. Hon Maotwe, please proceed.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: Yes, you must remove her from the House, she is very disruptive, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maotwe, please, proceed.



Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you. Chair, we must not be deterred into some semantics that have been used today. This is how the land was stolen from our people. They came with some semantics, promising this and that; by the time we woke up as black people, as the indigenous people of this country, the land was gone.



I am warning this Parliament, today, to say if we don’t wake up against Minister Pravin, when we wake up, Eskom will be gone. The main aim is to collapse Eskom and privatise it. They have done it at the SAA and SAA Express. What more proof do we want as Members of Parliament that the real agenda here is to privatise Eskom. We cannot sit here and pretend that ... [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Your time has expired. I added one more minute ... [Inaudible.] ... [Interjections.]

... Thank you. Hon members, you are out of order. I am done


with the speaker that was on the floor, that was hon Maotwe closing. Her time has expired and I have added the minutes that she left on her first slot.



The mini plenary rose at 15:21.



No related